Integrity Trumps Buckleyism Every Time [Archive]

minutus

08-31-2006, 01:33 AM

Funny how there are NO conversations on this board or anywhere else on the Internet about pastors who honor God and their calling through integrity. Such a despised word in the Stevens lexicon, but it shuts mouths when actually lived.

FIRST-PERSON: Integrity in ministry
Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006
By Danny Akin

WAKE FOREST, N.C. (BP)--In 1 Timothy 3:2 the Bible says leaders in the church must be blameless (NKJV), above reproach (NIV). In recent days a number of stories have appeared in the media concerning well-known ministers forced to resign because of inappropriate or unwise actions.

The cause of Christ has been harmed and the respect for ministers significantly damaged. There are a number of issues addressed in Scripture that speak to the essential nature of integrity in ministry (Titus 1:5-9; 1 Peter 5:1-4), but let me encourage ministers and others in church leadership to especially guard their lives in six particular areas:

1) Guard your integrity by always being completely honest. Do not pad your resume or reputation with false or inflated accomplishments. The Bible says God hates a proud look and lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17). Be a truth-teller in every area of your life, both in the big things and the little things.

2) Guard your integrity in your dealings with the opposite sex. If you are married, covenant with the Lord and your mate never to be alone with anyone of the opposite sex. Men, be known as a "one woman kind of man" (1 Timothy 3:2; Ephesians 5:33). Ladies, be known as a "one man kind of woman." If you are single, be careful in your conduct with the opposite sex. Treat them with the respect due a sister or brother in Christ. Avoid those private places where your hormones can override your will and you make a bad decision that can change your life forever.

3) Guard your integrity when it comes to money. As a minister, require annually a full outside audit of your church finances. On the personal level, have nothing to do with the direct financial responsibilities of the church. Do not have check writing authority. Do not handle or receive money, but direct individuals to the proper persons who handle the finances of the church. Never use a church credit card for personal reasons. Use your own credit card for personal reasons. When you do use a church credit card, always document its use with a receipt and a description of how it was used. Maintain accountability with someone in your church office or on your finance committee. Go the extra mile to be blameless.

Furthermore, realize people who love you will want to be a blessing to you. Develop an attitude of gratitude, but never one of entitlement. Ministers do not deserve nor should they expect special treatment. The Lord Jesus will properly reward them when they stand before Him (1 Peter 5:1-4). If that reward is not sufficient, I would suggest you get out of the ministry and do so quickly.

4) Guard your integrity when it comes to your family life. First Timothy 3:4 says leaders must rule their own house well and have children who are in submission with all reverence. Titus 1:6 adds that they must be faithful, not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. One's family life is often an accurate reflection of their spiritual life. Godly men and women will raise up godly children who love Christ and obey the Bible. Few areas of investment will yield greater reward.

minutus

08-31-2006, 01:35 AM

Part II:

5) Guard your integrity with solid theological competency. Often moral and ethical sins grow out of a defective biblical and theological life. Failing to cultivate a healthy understanding of theological truth like the sovereignty and holiness of God, the sinfulness and depravity of man, the process of sanctification and the necessity of biblical wisdom, and the centrality of Christ and the crucified life, you begin to think and then live in a manner that is foreign to the clear teachings of Scripture. Nothing will be more valuable in avoiding this danger than a steady diet of biblical exposition, whereby you are continually exposed to the totality of God's revealed truth. What you believe will determine how you live. Belief and behavior always go together.

6) Guard your integrity with the model of ministry you pursue. God calls you to be shepherds of His sheep. You are not called to be CEOs or drill sergeants. You are not called to be ranchers or dictators. You are certainly not called to be spiritual superstars or celebrities.

A word of caution is in order at this point. The greater your natural gifts and abilities, the more susceptible you are to entrapment by these seducing sirens of the world. Men, and women, with charismatic personalities and a commanding presence can operate too easily in the power of the flesh and not the Spirit. They can be deceived into believing their own press and the accolades showered on them by adoring followers. If they are not careful, they can begin to believe they have the right to operate by a different standard. This is the way of foolishness. This is the way that leads to the damage, and potential destruction, of a ministry.

There is no place in the church for spiritual superstars, who, like proud Diotrephes, love to have the preeminence (3 John 9). No, preeminence is rightfully reserved for only One and His name is Jesus (Colossians 1:18). Do not lose sight of the fact that you are sinners saved by grace. Do not lose sight of Who really matters, it is Jesus. Do not lose sight of how you serve, it is with integrity as you imitate Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1) in every sphere of your lives.
--30--
Daniel L. Akin is president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.

rjfernalld

08-31-2006, 01:38 AM

Thou hast been missed, friend minutus!

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 04:29 PM

minutus

This is all human good (in the name of Jesus) and will lead to legalism and striving to preform in the energy of the flesh with a result of utter failure. If not in this life then at the Bema.

Daniel L. Akin (according to what you have posted here) uses scripture, but the message of the Cross is not there, nor is the Word of Grace. Though he gives a small hint of these things in point 5. Isn’t he really telling "leaders": this is how Jesus wants us to lead now live up to it? Instead of telling them, with emphasis, that this is an impossible task and only Christ Himself can do this in us and through us. That our life is a life of submission, to the Word, the Cross Life, and the Holy Spirit, that we are no longer our own, we have been bought with a price.

Knowing these six points and doing them are pointless unless we understand that we are completely helpless and we need total dependence on Him by Grace through Faith.

What really needs to be taught is all that the Cross accomplished. The Person of Christ and The Work of Christ and the relationship of humanity, both saved and unsaved, are lifelong studies and teachings.

Why do so many people want to live the "Jesus life" and talk about how much they love Him when they refuse to go to The Word of the Cross and get to know Him? Could it be that is where self is made nothing and Christ is everything and the nature of man will have no part in this so he puts on religious front?

But if Christ is truly known and understood (as He reveals Himself in His Word), a believer doesn't have to react about his nothingness because he knows that Christ, in His love, has made him a new creation and has done away with his old nature (the power of it's control).

This is the very foundation of our faith. It is *sinseless* to get into “doing” for Jesus without being rooted in what Jesus did. It is by Grace through Faith. There will be no honest integrity outside the foundation of Christ no matter how masterful the performance.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 05:23 PM

Minutus: Great article. Once again, a person educated from the institution that claims the 'highest form of education' cannot grasp Bible 101.

BTW, Akin is the President of Southeastern in Wake Forest, NC. Patterson is the President of Southwestern in Fort Worth.

Jim B. my Gnostic, esoteric,abstract, higher life lacking any practical application friend:

Akin writes this because he KNOWS that integrity is the normal spiritual outcome of a life submitted to Christ. He KNOWS the Cornerstone. He just does not talk about HIM. His essay is more than abstract esoteric thoughts in a devotional style. It is how we live.

Familiarize yourself with 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, along with Christ's teaching of the servant leader and the lightbulb will come on for you.

The more you post the more I see how obtuse and uninformed you truly are.

My brother in Christ, I am praying that you will get the healing from the WORD, that the blinders will come off and the smug pompous attitude you demonstrate to those outside your little bubble will become obvious to you.
Peace and Grace to you

P.S. Why are there Marines on every navy ship?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 05:37 PM

In other words, your flawed doctrine produces/encourages your foolish behavior. E.G. rebound MC Hammer Nanner Nanner can't touch this theology and I answer to God alone, etc...

5) Guard your integrity with solid theological competency. Often moral and ethical sins grow out of a defective biblical and theological life. Failing to cultivate a healthy understanding of theological truth like the sovereignty and holiness of God, the sinfulness and depravity of man, the process of sanctification and the necessity of biblical wisdom, and the centrality of Christ and the crucified life, you begin to think and then live in a manner that is foreign to the clear teachings of Scripture.

minutus

09-01-2006, 06:00 PM

It's also amazing how the apostolic authors of the New Testament, especially Paul, would establish positional truth and then spend just as much of the text explaining how believers were to "live up to" their position in very real and practical ways. You cannot have one without the other. Anything else is a lie totally inconsistent with the nature of God.

Since leaving the Mother Ship I have met men and women who did not have to engage in theological sleight-of-hand to live lives of simple and convicting holiness. Are there some like that in GGWO? Yes, a few who are that way despite the doctrinal mashup generated by CHS and his sycophants to cover their positional derrieres.

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 06:03 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"He just does not talk about HIM."

I know, why should we bring Him into it? We have need of nothing, everything's under control. We'll call Him if we need Him. Have Him stand in the back somewhere where no one will notice Him and if someone really forcefully asks we'll bring Him out and parade Him around for a little while then put Him back.

Now I see what you mean, please excuse my ignorance?

"Familiarize yourself with 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, along with Christ's teaching of the servant leader and the lightbulb will come on for you. "

There is nothing in these passages that allow for outright hatred and the destruction of a member of the Body of Christ.

"P.S. Why are there Marines on every navy ship?"

Who else is going to protect the Navy?

Thank you for your prayers. People are still praying that I get the gift of tongues. Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt the two, do you think God will answer both prayers, your's and their's?

That would be a double blessing or Greater Grace. Oops, did I say GG?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 06:20 PM

I edited this to be more clear Or, again, you misinterpret what I am saying. He isn't just talking about HIM in a devotional & abstract way. He is sharing how to live for Him in a practical way. don't you see where he mentioned the crucified life, etc.?

IMO, I do not see hatred of a member of the body of Christ except for the leadership of GG who practices the very things you decry. Do you see your hypocrisy? They are the destructive ones hiding behind their veneer of Christianity. Wolves who devour and are paid for it in tithes and loyalty.

JB, my Gnostic friend who loves to write in the abstract devotional higher life way...Read again those passages and ask yourself, how will these passages cause us to act practically in this lifetime?

Will we place a man before our face and commit idolatry?
Will we demand undying loyalty without question from our neighbor causing them to commit idolatry?
Will we cause others to swear by oath to be loyal to a man and his 'vision'?
Will we cause others to dishonor our mother and father for loyalty to a man?
Will we diddle our neighbor's wife?
Will we cause the unwed to commit immorality by denying them to married?
Will we cause others to commit adultery by encouraging divorce?
Will we cause others to hate those who disagree with us?
Will we steal our neighbor's home and possessions?
Will we bear FALSE witness against our neighbor because he disagrees with us?

Or, is this all Old Testament stuff in your opinion? What do you think?

BTW, I thought sheep were too obvious. LOL
Also, you are on your own with the tongues thing. But, I am praying for you and the liberty in Christ to see the truth of these passages.

(Message edited by guess who is coming to dinner on September 01, 2006)

dancer

09-01-2006, 07:10 PM

Actually I see Christ lifted up in a lot of verses. Are you just blind? Or in a state of denial?

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 07:39 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"don't you see where he mentioned the crucified life"

I made reference to point 5.

"I do not see hatred of a member of the body of Christ except for the leadership of GG"

If God is not partial, why do you make an exception? The Body of Christ includes ALL members.

"how will these passages cause us to act practically in this lifetime?"

My point has never been the practical side of the spiritual life. There is more than enough of that on factnet. My point has been the positional side so that those who have a heart after God will know that there is a balance and seek Him in His Word to find it.

"But, I am praying for you and the liberty in Christ to see the truth of these passages."

Thank you.

orangetwopay

09-01-2006, 07:56 PM

you people need to receive the true meat of carl's word.

get a few hallmark messages.

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/09/get-your-new-hallmark-messages.html

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 07:57 PM

You still have not answered my questions. Position is meaningless without application.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 07:59 PM

There is no hatred towards GGWO. Just warnings to those who would stumble into the wolves' den.

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 08:57 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"Position is meaningless without application."

This is an absolute false statement! Our union with Christ and our position in Him is the only scource of application. Without position application is no more than human good which is rejected by God.

"There is no hatred towards GGWO."

Huh?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 09:26 PM

You still do not understand what I am (that is me, myself and I - I am speaking for myself)saying, about application or hatred. I have no hatred just indignation.

You claim you are defending your brothers in Christ. You presume that they need defending while actually excusing their misconduct. Yet, you say let God deal with them ou the other side of the mouth. Why do you defend them? Why not let God deal with them? After all, this is you philisophy. You can't have your cake and eat too! Also, you call those your brothers who destroy the body in the name of pastoral priveledge and disregard HIS LAWS.

Matthew 5:17-20: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. -NASB

(Message edited by guess who is coming to dinner on September 01, 2006)

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 09:44 PM

"My point has never been the practical side of the spiritual life. There is more than enough of that on factnet. My point has been the positional side so that those who have a heart after God will know that there is a balance and seek Him in His Word to find it."

It is obvious that you are not concerned with application based upon all of your esoteric rants. Hello, you have no balance! You remind me of SGT Schultz on Hogan's Heroes':
"I know nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing."

You refuse to acknowledge that years of wicked behavior reveal nothing but deception. Again, CHS and his associates are deceivers who practice lawlessness.

Matthew 7:15-23

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 " Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 " Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' -NASB

Again, JB, my Gnostic friend who loves to write in the abstract devotional higher life way...will applying 'positional truth' cause us to act practically in this lifetime? Or,

Will we place a man before our face and commit idolatry?
Will we demand undying loyalty without question from our neighbor causing them to commit idolatry?
Will we cause others to swear by oath to be loyal to a man and his 'vision'?
Will we cause others to dishonor our mother and father for loyalty to a man?
Will we diddle our neighbor's wife?
Will we cause the unwed to commit immorality by denying them to married?
Will we cause others to commit adultery by encouraging divorce?
Will we cause others to hate those who disagree with us?
Will we steal our neighbor's home and possessions?
Will we bear FALSE witness against our neighbor because he disagrees with us?

Or, is this all Old Testament stuff in your opinion? What do you think?

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 09:48 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"You claim you are defending your brothers in Christ."

This is not a claim that was made by me. It was one of the many labels given to me. I don't recall "defending anyone. I stated a believer's position in Christ including CHS and all sorts of accusations started to fly because I don't go along with the mob.

"you call those your brothers who destroy the body in the name of pastoral privilege and disregard HIS LAWS."

I have no choice in who my brothers in Christ are. I can promise you, the Father and Son never consult me as to who or who should not be placed in union Christ.

1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus,

As you can see God places us in Christ without consultation.

"Matthew 5:17-20"

Our righteousness does surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, we (and ALL believers) have the same righteousness as Christ imputed to us at salvation.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 09:50 PM

Why won't you answer my questions?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 09:56 PM

You defend and label all those who warn of the wolves that we are haters, bitter, etc. You are quick to label all who warn the flock. Of course some are bitter. They are also working things out. They have been bitten by wolves who paraded as sheep and led them by the nose. Think about it, not everyone can suck it up and drive on to the Ranger objective though they be the lone survivor. Not everyone can shout surrender is not in our creed. Why not help those who are struggling...the one for the ninety-nine. Where is your compassion?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 10:07 PM

I stand corrected, you do not defend the wolves, you endorse and turn a blind eye to decades of witness against the wolves who devour the flock. So, at what point would you actually in love warn the flock about the wolves?

"I am amazed at what I have been reading here. Post after post about someone's deeds of the flesh. The old man was crucified, died and was buried with Christ. God no longer sees any believer according to the flesh, but as one in Christ. Why go on and on about flesh when we are a new creation? It is Christ who is our Life and our occupation. Should we dig up what God has buried? If we believe that Christ is in control let Him deal with the things that concern His Church, Body and Future Bride. He doesn't need our help."

You also judge and demean those you do not agree with:
"It's hard for me to believe that some here have learned anything about the person and work of Christ."

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 10:18 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"You refuse to acknowledge that years of wicked behavior reveal nothing but deception."

What good is my acknowledgment? The issues at GGWO are no concern of mine. If I bow down to the group and agree with them I'd have lots of friends and people would stroke me all day long, and I would keep thinking up things in hopes of adulation. I’d say something cute, you would stroke me, someone else would strokes me, WOW, this is great. I can even fool myself into believing my opinion is well respected, someone might even tell me how they respect my opinion. Finally, I'm somebody, I just have to remember: "just keep pushing the cause, keep pushing the cause".

No thanks, I'll stick with the cross of Christ!

Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

"will applying 'positional truth' cause us to act practically in this lifetime?"

The more "aware" we are of our positional truth the more we will manifest Christ.

Example: if I am unaware of my righteousness in Christ, the fact that I can't get any more or any less righteous, then I will go around trying to establish my own righteousness before God and men. So on the outside I appear to be clean but on the inside I'm full of dead men's bones.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 10:29 PM

I have no intention of stroking you. Besides, you are in the spirit world; therefore, I am not even sure I could see you! Adualtion? Here? Surely, you jest. Something cute? Devouring believers is not cute. You still have not answered the questions.

Again, JB, my Gnostic friend who loves to write in the abstract devotional higher life way...will applying 'positional truth' cause us to act practically in this lifetime? Or,

Will we place a man before our face and commit idolatry?
Will we demand undying loyalty without question from our neighbor causing them to commit idolatry?
Will we cause others to swear by oath to be loyal to a man and his 'vision'?
Will we cause others to dishonor our mother and father for loyalty to a man?
Will we diddle our neighbor's wife?
Will we cause the unwed to commit immorality by denying them to married?
Will we cause others to commit adultery by encouraging divorce?
Will we cause others to hate those who disagree with us?
Will we steal our neighbor's home and possessions?
Will we bear FALSE witness against our neighbor because he disagrees with us?

If the cross is in your life, you will manifest it.
Matthew 18:7: "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!" -NASB

You can't see the stumbling blocks because you cannot face the error of your blind loyalty to what you have been indoctrinated with. So, when do you warn the flock?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 10:40 PM

Jim, I would also add covetousness to the list because that is what also happened.

If we are livng a life unto God, will we sytematically covet our neighbors goods?

Act 20:29-33 (29) I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; (30) and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. (31) Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. (32) And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. (33) I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 10:43 PM

I would also add using the LORD's name in vain to the lawlessness because the name of Christ was bandied about for personal gain.

So, Jim is GG suffering or being persecuted?

1 Peter 4:15-18 (NASB) “Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?”

I realized that the Hand of God does discipline and judge. I realized that the wheels of Divine justice grind - they just grind slowly. He is patient and does not desire His children to perish.

ALL these years later what was done in the dark is being disclosed. Today, FACTNet is the judgment of God on the man and the movement that refuses to see the light and have a penitent heart. God is Sovereign over the affairs of men. He is slow to move. But, mark His words HE will move. Why? Because, He cares about HIS people and those who abuse, take advantage and use their position for personal gain. He does not find it amusing when adultery, lies, manipulations, cover ups and secretive financial dealings are all done in HIS NAME. He does not find it amusing when scripture is twisted and manipulated to prop up a system and a leader that marks, slanders and labels those who leave or question doctrines or behavior they realize are wrong as evil, deceived, carnal, etc. The Bible says not to use the LORD's NAME in vain. To use Scripture for personal gain and manipulation is tantamount to using His NAME in vain.

Exodus 20:7 (NASB) "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.”

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 10:45 PM

Jim, I say this in all humility and in love, study the ten commandments and search for the cross references in the NT. You will be blessed and see the fullfillment of the Law in Christ.

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 11:01 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

Will you tell me who you are? We must of broke bread together at one time since you know my eating habits.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 11:02 PM

Why would Paul say this?
Act 20:29-33 (29) I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; (30) and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. (31) Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. (32) And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. (33) I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.

Why did Paul say this? Was he considering their 'positional truth' when he wrote this?

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 11:08 PM

Jim, why do you want to know me after the flesh?

(Message edited by guess who is coming to dinner on September 01, 2006)

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 11:11 PM

Why did John 'call out' Diotrephes? Why didn't he consider his position? Was he knowing him after the flesh?
3 John 1:9 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.
3Jo 1:10 So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does good is from God; whoever does evil has not seen God.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 11:15 PM

Why would Nathan say this? Why wasn't he considering David's position? Was he knowing him after the flesh?

2Sa 12:7 Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul.
2Sa 12:8 And I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more.
2Sa 12:9 Why have you despised the word of the LORD, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.'
2Sa 12:11 Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.'"

(Message edited by guess who is coming to dinner on September 01, 2006)

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 11:22 PM

Yes, we broke bread together on many occasions. Perhaps, in time I will share with my identity via email. I know you love the LORD. I know you put up with much crap. I also know you need to rethink some of your doctrines. Do not be afraid. I am saved, I attend church and I believe in EVERY WORD OF GOD. It is many of the interpretations you uphold that I disagree with.
Peace and Grace

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 11:28 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"So, Jim is GG suffering or being persecuted?"

Like I said, that's not my call to make. BTW, it's not your's either.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 11:35 PM

We disagree here. Tell me how are they being persecuted? Why would Peter warn us that there is a difference?

1Peter 4:15-19
(15) But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
(16) Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
(17) For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
(18) And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
(19) Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

rjfernalld

09-01-2006, 11:38 PM

Jim.... Biblically explain the so-called "Bema Seat" doctrine please?

whatsup

09-01-2006, 11:52 PM

Hmmmm....lets see....is GG suffering or being persecuted? This is a tough one....head pastor committing adultery, lying in court, bilking money, slandering anyone who leaves, teaching false doctrine to promote and idolize himself, allowing child molesters free reign, and raising up leaders to do the same....perhaps GG COULD be getting CHASTISED....so hard to say.....
"not my call to make" DUH

minutus

09-02-2006, 01:22 AM

JB reminds me of the good old days with Martin L here on FN. It's impossible for a Christian to sin http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif.

gone_to_pa

09-02-2006, 03:02 PM

This is all human good (in the name of Jesus) and will lead to legalism and striving to preform in the energy of the flesh with a result of utter failure. If not in this life then at the Bema.

Jim, I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but you failed reading comprehension in school. You should have been home skooled like me. You my friend have gone to the cross and have yet to identify the body. Not Christ, yours.

Minutus, great article, one of the best I have read. Thank-you. GTP http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

david_munson

09-02-2006, 03:58 PM

Mr.Buckley,
To assume that everyone posting here has hatred for the leadership of GGWO is rediculous.
I don't hate anyone though I might hate what they have done and are still doing.

You know the saying,"hate the sin,love the sinner but that does not mean that we willingly advance error by covering up for a habitual sinner who refuses to correct his/her erronious doctrines out of pride and arrogance.

To the contrary,since there has been a rejecting of Biblical correction which documentation is agreed upon in the signing of the Sandy Cove covenant by the "leadership" of GGWO and then was rejected out of hand by the same leadership,then it is up to the flock to expose these egregious actions.
If only for the sake of others.
Since this error is known,it would be sin not to give warning to suseptible seekers of Christ.
It has nothing to do with hating anyone.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul gave warning and I would follow his example over any ones.

Read your Bible and you will discover the truth concerning these types of matters.

Dave

}

jim_buckley

09-05-2006, 07:11 PM

Dave

"Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. ”

“Paul gave warning and I would follow his example over any ones.”

Are you an overseer in GGWO? Are you feeding the flock in GGWO? Has the leadership of GGWO, which the Holy Spirit has made overseers, departed from the flock? If so, during their absence did grievous wolves enter in among the flock? Has part of the flock risen up speaking perverse things? Is the drawing away of disciples from inside the flock or from outside the flock?

I would seriously rethink this passage. The wolves are former or ex-members, not the current flock.

“Since this error is known,it would be sin not to give warning to suseptible seekers of Christ.
It has nothing to do with hating anyone.”

Oh, I’m sorry, I must have been jumping to conclusions. You can twist the scriptures all you want, there is nothing in them that authorizes “outsiders” to disrupt a Pastor/Teacher’s local assembly and/or it’s affiliates. I wouldn’t touch The Ark.

Have you studied the Doctrine of Busy Bodies? It has a lot to say about crusader arrogance. Or do you randomly select your passages to promote your agenda?

anon_brief

09-05-2006, 08:04 PM

"Doctrine of Busy Bodies" is merely another attempt to innoculate people against the truth.

It's specifically engineered to complement (and reinforce) the "No-Talk Rule".

What harm to a innocent person does it do to tell the truth? None.

Regardless of whether the truth is flattering or embarrassing, discussing it leads to a person making a determination of:

- how one feels about the issue
- what one believes to be the truth about the issue

and most importantly

- how what has happened impacts the individual with regard to their moral standards, values, beliefs, etcetera

The only people who are placed in danger from discussing the truth are the UNtruthful.

jim_buckley

09-05-2006, 10:15 PM

anon_brief
""Doctrine of Busy Bodies" is merely another attempt to innoculate people against the truth."

Here are a few Greek words, definitions and verses for your edification.

periergos
Thayer Definition:
1) busy about trifles and neglectful of important matters
1a) especially busy about other folks’ affairs, a busybody
1b) of things: impertinent and superfluous
1b1) of magic arts

VINE

Busybody
<a-1,verb,4020,periergazomai>
lit., "to be working round about, instead of at one's own business" (peri, "around," ergon, "work"), signifies to take more pains than enough about a thing, to waste one's labor, to be meddling with, or bustling about, other people's matters. This is found in 2Th_3:11, where, following the verb ergazomai, "to work," it forms a paronomasia. This may be produced in a free rendering: "some who are not busied in their own business, but are overbusied in that of others."

<b-1,adjective,4021,periergos>
akin to A, denoting "taken up with trifles," is used of magic arts in Act_19:19; "busybodies" in 1Ti_5:13, i.e., meddling in other persons' affairs. See CURIOUS.

<c-1,noun,244,allotrioepiskopos>
from allotrios, "belonging to another person," and episkopos, "an overseer," translated "busybody" in the AV of 1Pe_4:15, "meddler," RV, was a legal term for a charge brought against Christians as being hostile to civilized society, their purpose being to make Gentiles conform to Christian standards. Some explain it as a pryer into others' affairs. See MEDDLER.

allotriepiskopos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who takes the supervision of affairs pertaining to others and in no wise to himself, a meddler in other men’s affairs

Strong
allotriepiskopos
al-lot-ree-ep-is'-kop-os
From G245 and G1985; overseeing others' affairs, that is, a meddler (specifically in Gentile customs): - busybody in other men’s matters.

Robertson

And busybodies (&#954;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#949;&#961;&#947;&#959;&# 953; [kai periergoi]). Old word (from &#960;&#949;&#961;&#953;, &#7952;&#961;&#947;&#959;&#957; [peri, ergon]), busy about trifles to the neglect of important matters. In N.T. only here and Acts 19:19. See II Thess. 3:11 for &#960;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#949;&#961;&#947;&#945;&# 950;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; [periergazomai]. Things which they ought not (&#964;&#945; &#956;&#951; &#948;&#949;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945; [ta m&#275; deonta]). “The not necessary things,” and, as a result, often harmful. See Titus 1:11 &#7937; &#956;&#951; &#948;&#949;&#953; [ha m&#275; dei] (which things are not necessary).

Kittle

&#960;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#941;&#967;&#959;&#956;&# 945;&#953;.
1 Tm. 5:13 is a warning against the danger of idle younger widows going about from house to house and creating trouble in the congregation. In Hb. 11:37 &#960;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#941;&#961;&#967;&#949;&# 963;&#952;&#945;&#953; (“to wander about”) refers to the suffering of Christian heroes of faith.&#65279;

1 Pet 4:15, Acts 19:19, 1 Tim 5:13, 2 Thes 3:11

gone_to_pa

09-05-2006, 10:59 PM

Since we were doing some of that there exegeeting stuff, I thought I'd share your beloved Carls exegesis on the word below. In his book, Demon Armies Exposed, we can clearly see the model of the "kopos" family!!!

Teratoskopos, found in Dt 18:11 according to great in depth study. This army of demons { demonology according to CHS] will bring on an affliction and then influence healing ministries, by simply withdrawing from the object they damaged. It looks like a miracle, when really the cause and remedy were both demonic. Thye want you to dwell on an emotional experience.!

allotriepiskopos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who takes the supervision of affairs pertaining to others and in no wise to himself, a meddler in other men’s affairs

Strong
allotriepiskopos
al-lot-ree-ep-is'-kop-os
From G245 and G1985; overseeing others' affairs, that is, a meddler (specifically in Gentile customs): - busybody in other men’s matters.

Who needs people like, Thayer, Wuest, Robertson, Vine or even that scondrill Zodhiates, when we have Carl to do all the work for us??? I got a million of em. Kata-dunastuo, Rhadiourgia, Keno-logeo, Epoiden, Algamata, Prosphatei.

Hey they sure was a barrel of fun, I'll tell you. Just to think, if it weren't for all that there exegeetin, I would know that CHS was under a severe attack from Daimoniouakathartou and them there mean old Bathos demons; Wooo-weee, http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gifthey sure can be a mother, if you know what I'm gettin at. Well Jimmy, it's been fun exegeeting wit cha, if you need any more Demon Armies, let me know, like a plumb fool, I exegeeted one a very long time ago, and didn't follow through on doing the same for the rest. In other words, I took everyone's word that CHS had been studying for nearly 50 years and if he didn't know what he was talking about who did. Well, I know you won't look for it, but I wrote a letter of repentance here on FN, and repented of my ways. I pray one day I will cross the paths of those I mis-taught so I can straighten them out on how like an A$$, I trusted a man that thousands said was alright and an AWWWWESOMMMMMEE teacher. GTP

Jim, nothing personal, some tell me your a great guy, but works aren't going to get you too far my friend, especially dead ones. Shalom

jim_buckley

09-05-2006, 11:20 PM

gone_to_pa

" Jim, nothing personal, some tell me your a great guy, but works aren't going to get you too far my friend, especially dead ones. Shalom"

Huh? Do you think I have departed from Grace?

sidethorn

09-05-2006, 11:22 PM

The wolves are Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller, and the cowards out there that insist in covering up for them. GGWO is about manipulation, exploitation and leading people astray in the name of God. There is plenty of evidence and testimony to back this up. GGWO is a cult that needs to be exposed before more people get hurt!! Twisting Scripture to condemn former GGWO members from speaking up is cowardly and an abomination before God!!! The Bible is full of examples of publicly speaking up about peoples' sins for various purposes like protecting unsuspecting people from being hurt and misled!! The Bible teaches about sowing and reaping and nobody is exempt from that!! GGWO is not the Ark, it is a cult that needs to be shut down!!! The leadership of GGWO has proven again and again their complete disregard of their own congregation and refuses to be accountable to them. This corrupt leadership refuses accountability to anyone!! Let them be exposed from those within and those from outside. There is no Scriptural prohibition against exposing a cultic church (GGWO) if one is a former member of that church. Quite the opposite. The wolves in sheep's clothing (Carl Stevens) are to be exposed according to the Bible!!! This is not arrogance or hate, its called obedience to God. God wants the wolves and cult leaders exposed, period!!

rjfernalld

09-06-2006, 12:06 AM

rjfernalld
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld

Post Number: 1852
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.161.156.58
Posted on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 6:38 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim.... Biblically explain the so-called "Bema Seat" doctrine please?

jim_buckley

09-06-2006, 12:43 AM

sidethorn

Do you understand what this passage is saying? I thought my explanation was pretty clear. If you need more help, ask and be specific.

"Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. ”

"GGWO is not the Ark"

I agree, I was referring to a Pastor/Teacher and his local assembly.

sidethorn

09-06-2006, 01:42 AM

Please do a reality check Jim!!! This is not what has been happening at Greater Grace. Just throwing up specific scriptures to try to support a viewpoint that you choose to believe is ridiculous. You have chosen to believe that Factnet posters are evil wolves for exposing GGWO as a cult. The evil wolf here is actually the GGWO leadership, not us Factnet posters. Carl Stevens and his goon squad are the wolves that have entered in, not sparing the flocks of other ministries, not sparing the drifting Christians searching for a new church home, to draw these disciples after themselves and their false teaching, pastor worship, etc. GGWO top dogs are the wolves that have infected the true body of Christ to lead innocent disciples to serve them and their selfish desires. According to your logic, exposing cults that call themselves Christian and claim 'repentance' automatically makes one a wolf. What we're about on Factnet is returning God's people back to the non-cultic churches that God has for them. That involves publicly exposing Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller etc. as the wolves that they are and encouraging people to leave them. If the Pharisee's put together a pseudo church in Jesus day, you can bet Jesus and His disciples would publicly expose them and bring people out of there. That has nothing to do with Acts 20:28-31 as you claim. GGWO is not a legitimate church run by God, it is a cult run by selfish men. The GGWO leadership and its assembly is not a real Ark. Acts 20:28-31 does not apply to organizations like this whether you want to believe that or not. God is sovereignly using many people (like Factnet posters) to lead people out of GGWO and will continue to do more in the future. Get used to it!!!

gone_to_pa

09-06-2006, 02:16 AM

Jim,

I don't know you well enough to discern that, but I would say no for now,NO, but I do think you have departed from the sphere of moral action that we were introduced to at our conversion. You will find this in Eph 2:10 “ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. We are God’s spiritual handiwork , in that we were created by Him and made a new creature by Him. This new creation was in Christ so except in union between Him and us, it couldn’t have taken place. We were created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. The word ordained means here to prepare beforehand. God prearranged a sphere of moral action for us to walk in. Not only are [works the necessary outcome of faith,] but the character and direction of the works are made ready by God. Greek Expositors say this. Before He created us in Christ by our conversion, He had destined these good works and made them ready for us in His purpose and decree. There is the unseen source from which they spring, and there is their final explanation.
These good works that were prepared before hand that we should walk in them. Walk peripateo, to regulate ones life, to conduct oneself, to order ones behavior. God’s purpose in the place which he gave to good works, was that they should be done actually and habitually by us. His final object was to make good works the very element of our life, the domain in which our action should move. That this should be the nature of our walk is implied in our being His handiwork, made anew by Him in Christ. These good works are of God’s originating, and not of our action or merit, because we had to be made new creatures in Christ with a view to them. Original Translation:
“ For by the grace have you been saved in time past, completely, through faith, with the result that your salvation persists through present time; and this (salvation) is not from you as a source. Of God, it is the gift; not from a source of works, in order that no one might boast; for we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus with a view to good works which God prepared beforehand in order that within their sphere we may order our behavior.”

to be cont.......

gone_to_pa

09-06-2006, 02:20 AM

My question would fall in the category of the New Birth. I doubt the New Birth of some you seem to defend as one of the more intellectual GG Spin Doctors we have seen here. I mean no offense. One to two years of questionable actions, ahhh, two to five years, arrrggghhh, 30 to 50 years of questionable actions without accountability, which only God knows the real truth of someone's heart, but I know when I was backslidden for 3 years my heart was torn so bad, when I was rationalizing and justifying actions I knew were not of Him, I questioned my own conversion. If I set myself in a place by the doctrines I taught to thousands, so I would not be questioned about not one single action, was that done to protect " The Ministry" or MY Empire of Dirt? It would have been to protect ME, and my Ego. Why would i allow thousands to give me Standing "O's", but yet when i said lets give the Lord a round of applause, I didn't say a thing when they clapped for Jesus for 20 seconds and for me 5 minutes or more, so much so that they had to be told to sit down.
Jim, would you allow the Sheep that you were appointed Overseer of to Praise you in that matter instead of your Savior? How long was this ministry being done on the power of the flesh. Dan Lewis seemed to imply that he was directed to lie for his entire tenure at TBS/GGWO. And admitted to destroying families behind these lies. He was told to do this from the top and i don't mean Jesus. Men of integrity like Pastor Lutz wrote more than once begging for change, to receive the deaf ear. I question how many were and still are involved in the Works Program and know nothing of a new Birth. Oh yes, by galley Sgt Carter, their saved, but born-again. If these were stupid ignorant people who didn't have a clue, then you might say, maybe, but this wasn't the case and still isn't. Repentance is a gift of God. Free as grace, but when you accept that gift, fruit follows. When you have been born-again, there is fruit that follows. Even dead works have their own fruit. "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit." GTP

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-06-2006, 02:24 AM

Jim B., you have not departed from grace because you have not embraced it. You have been indoctrinated into a system that is esoteric, Gnostic, lacks any real application and uses grace as a license to sin. This is a system of pure evil and idolatry.

Have you not read:
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
(Titus 2:11)

Have you not heard:
training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
(Titus 2:12)

Have you not seen:
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(Titus 2:13)

Do you not understand:
who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
(Titus 2:14)

Do you not believe:
Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
(Titus 2:15)

Do you have eyes, but do not see? Do you have ears but do not hear? Do you have a mind but cannot think? Do you have faith but choose to live in unbelief?

Will grace train us to:
Place a man before our face and commit idolatry?
Make false doctrines and worship at the feet of them?
Demand undying loyalty without question from our neighbor causing them to commit idolatry?
Cause others to swear by oath to be loyal to a man and his 'vision'?
Dishonor the Lord’s Day by profaning what He designed to be Holy?
Cause others to dishonor our mother and father for loyalty to a man?
Diddle our neighbor's wife?
Cause the unwed to commit immorality by denying them the liberty to marry?
Cause others to commit adultery by encouraging divorce?
Cause others to hate those who disagree with us?
Steal our neighbor's home and possessions?
Will we bear FALSE witness against our neighbor because he disagrees with us?
Covet our neighbor’s goods and teach doctrines that will give me the 'right' to take what is theirs in the name of Christ?

What is your major malfunction you knucklehead? Pull your head out of your spirtual rear-end and let the light of Christ shine in you like it did when we were first saved. Forsake your error and return to your first love. I thank God that I did. You wife and your children will be blessed. You will be set free.

cordell

09-06-2006, 02:38 AM

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

jimMYbuCK sez: I would seriously rethink this passage. The wolves are former or ex-members, not the current flock.
The passage concerns the church at Ephesus. The general warning that may be ascertained for the church of today is that anyone in leadership may become a "wolf" as has CHS, and that the wolves eat the sheep rather than feed them. They can come from within or without. The assumption is that the ones in charge at GGWO are there because the Holy Spirit has put them there. The easy way to surmise this is to see if the current leadership fulfills 1 Tim 3. If not, then the Holy Spirit is not the one doing the leading.
As usual, ignoranus jiMMyBUcK desires to blame chewed up sheep rather than wolves who devour.

I wouldn’t touch The Ark.

Have you studied the Doctrine of Busy Bodies? It has a lot to say about crusader arrogance. Or do you randomly select your passages to promote your agenda?

jiMmYBUck's systematic theology 101 contains lots of fekked up doctrines coming out of Carl's anus, like the 'doctrine of conspiracies' which he has also 'studied'. CHS used to do 'exegesis' of 1 Tim. 5 and say that the ones who were called out publicly were not sinning elders but the 'busybodies' who were mentioned in a previous section of the chapter. And as jimMYBucK wouldn't touch the Ark because he is Indiana Phekkin' Jones, he probably also thinks exposing Carl's evil deeds is like the doctrine of 'uncovering Noah'. jimMYBucK, who can't figure out Augustine, is covered by the bozone layer.

cordell

09-06-2006, 02:40 AM

anon_brief

09-06-2006, 03:42 AM

Jim Buckley,

I would actually have been more edified if you would have taken the time to tell me what you thought, rather than merely regurgitating the reference section of an on-line library.

Believe it or not, I know lots of words in more than several languages and have actually read a book or two and studied a few things here and there.

Your cut and paste is condescending and, quite frankly, more indicative of a lack of original thought or personal conviction rather than learnedness or wisdom.

BUT, to respond briefly to a few of your comments -

Something becomes your business when it enters your life; therefore, it is not meddling in the affairs of others to be concerned with or by it.

It is never a waste of time to save another from harm. As a matter of fact, it is a moral responsibility to do so.

cordell

09-06-2006, 09:08 AM

jimMYBucK doesn't believe in MORAL responsibility my dear anon brief, because that would make the TEN COMMANDMENTS relevant and binding on his life--and of course he's under some perverse concept of what he calls 'grace' which is in fact nothing but hyperspiritual licentiousness.

sidethorn

09-06-2006, 12:15 PM

Rebound, recovery, covering, touch not, and don't question. Fundamental concepts of Buckleyism!! The same mentality that allows cults like GGWO to spiritually rape and captivate more people year after year while feeding off their labor, tithes and offerings. It allows GGWO leaders to divert peoples' devotion and love for God to their own self serving corrupt leadership. It allows them to take advantage of the unsuspecting in an environment of secrecy, deception, and no accountability. These concepts didn't happen by accident, they were deliberately invented by the corrupt leadership of GGWO to create an environment where they can continually lure people in, decieve them, exploit them, and grind them up for personal gain. GGWO is one big con game disguised as an evangelical church that twists Scripture to avoid accountability, responsibility, and being questioned for its abusive practices. Silence is what helps cults like GGWO flourish. No wonder these teachings of touch not, don't speak against the pastor, don't question anything are so prevalent at GGWO. Its another leeching cult trying to preserve itself at peoples' expense.

hodeuon

09-06-2006, 12:19 PM

"Teratoskopos, found in Dt 18:11 according to great in depth study."

*sigh* Carl needed some demon armies so he decided to find some names. He couldn't take a word straight out of the Greek New Testament or Hebrew Old Testament too often, or someone would realize he was just grabbing individual words. But how many people ever actually check the Greek Old Testament? What would make a good demon army? What about those verses against witchcraft? There must be something there. Grab your Strong's concordance and look up "witchcraft" and "familiar spirits". Check those verses in English and Hebrew. (Or sadly, don't check the Hebrew because categorical doctrine means 100% of your theology comes from word studies.) Note the promising verses. Hit on the idea of checking the Septuagint (Greek translation Old Testament). Discover this nifty word teratoskopos.

If this in-depth study took more than a couple hours I'd be surprised.

Hodeuon

boss_martian

09-06-2006, 01:56 PM

Jim Buckley is yet another "true believer". He is unentreatable. It does not matter what you say to him, in his world, the only sin is not following Carl Stevens. Period. It's sad, it's terrible, and perhaps it could have been prevented years ago, but it is too late.

Let the guy be a good example of a bad example and shut the damn place down. If GGWO can't be shut down, make sure that Jim Buckley's "testimony" is broadcast from the mountaintops. Hopefully, not even the most desperate person will think his way of thinking is worth a crap.

Warn the public, keep these idiots from grabbing anyone else.

boss_martian

09-06-2006, 02:00 PM

lana

09-06-2006, 06:56 PM

The Word of God is not ment to destroy our thinking processes.We still deal with the real world. We are to apply the Word in the realities of life, the pros and cons as we face each day by exercising our minds. You can't have one without the other. Its a balance, otherwise one will take over.

shat_happens

09-06-2006, 09:02 PM

Boss, that’s very true, though I guess many could say the same thing about us. It’s like the story in the bible about the woman caught in the act of adultery, where Christ says 2 really amazing things, 1) Ye without sin cast the first stone! Many of us just like to throw stones; it doesn’t matter for what reason, or at whom, just as long as we are the ones throwing them! And 2) after all that he told the woman, “Go and sin no more!” which really is the dividing line between a “us vs. them” mindset. We have to remember that we are all “true believers” in something we shouldn’t be.

It’s very interesting, because no one can accuse anyone else of a worse sin, because we are selves are sinners, but the “go and sin no more” is were things really get tested. This is where GG falls short, they love to say, that “grace isn’t a license to sin” which seems to apply to everyone but leadership, leadership sins it’s like, “oh don’t worry about it!”

Now sure it’s all under the blood, but when you hurt someone else in anyway, that is breaking the law, and should be dealt as such!

shat_happens

09-06-2006, 09:15 PM

greater grace is like the helping hand that you didn't ask for, nor need!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/09/so-okay-steve-irwin-diedbig-friggin.html#comments

boss_martian

09-07-2006, 05:34 AM

Wow, Shat, that was profound. I never knew that stealing a pencil from work was just as harmful to others as setting them on fire. I also never knew that giving your pastor a license to steal, treat the female congregation like his personal harem, and become a false idol with absolutely zero remorse was only as harmful as me being •••••• off about it.

Thanks for straightening me out. Shoot, Jim Buckley has it right. The only sin in this world is pointing out someone else's.

Free Charles Manson! He is no worse than me and certainly no more of a danger! Who am I or anyone else to speak badly of Osama bin Laden? He is no worse than me and certainly no more of a danger to the public than I am.

I apologise for any criticism of Jim Buckley. I think he's really got a handle on things. Really, Shat, thanks for clearing that up for me. If only you could see me now. Man, I have the happy smile on my face that only comes from realising a greater truth that I've ever known. I'm so happy now. I don't question anything!

Carl Stevens is a saint! I am going out this very day to get my own "covering" at the wig shop! I forgot, the only other sin is baldness.

No wonder this cult has lasted so long.

boss_martian

09-07-2006, 05:36 AM

shat_happens

09-07-2006, 09:10 AM

WHOOOAAA!! Easy there sailor!

No, actually Boss, I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, my first point was that sin is sin, we know that, but where GG is wrong is with the “sin no more” part, so in fact I’m with you on what you were saying before.

And no, stealing a pencil and setting someone on fire are two different things, but do you really think God gives a •••• about semantics when it comes to sin? It’s like the children of Israel screwing up, and their children’s children had to pay for it, this was my last point; if you do something against someone else you deserve to be punished for it!

So I’m with ya on what you were saying Boss.

boss_martian

09-07-2006, 02:15 PM

Sorry for inserting my rather large (yet pleasingly shaped) head in my rear, Shat. The doctrine of "Buckleyism", a lack of coffee and time NOT spent wasting taxpayers money (at least American taxpayers) made me a little quick on the keys! However, there have been a few people here that have tried the "aren't we all sinners" line of reasoning.

We are.

I am.

If my sin is causing true harm to others, I would expect to be stopped.

gone_to_pa

09-08-2006, 08:02 PM

Hodueon,

Let’s just look at one of Carl’s armies that takes no more in depth study than going to a Strongs. Acts 13:10 has a demon army according to CHS known as “Rhadiourgia” This is his definition for this particular group of the demonic. “ They specialize in inflicting attitudes of passivity. They set up people when the seasons change. They want you to get pre-occupied with the things of summer. { i.e. This message taught at the beginning of summer} They want you to enjoy the beach more than the cross. They can come at any time of year. They don’t cause you to be against anything, but to become careless and spiritually inactive, not redeeming the time. They try to invade your personality and take over your identity. [ of who you are in Christ]

All this from the word “mischief” in the following passage. Acts 13:10 “ And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right way of the Lord?”
“RHADIOURGIA” 1) ease in doing, faculty
2) levity or easiness in thinking or acting
a) love of a lazy effeminate life
3) unscrupulous, cunning, mischief
This particular ABD class really blew my mind because CHS said that this army likes you to go to the beach instead of church. Then one of two things always happens. Either you will enjoy the beach so much that you will want to do it every Sunday instead of being in church, or you like it at first, but feel so guilty for not going to church, that your ashamed and don’t go back for a long time, maybe never again. Even though we were responsible for the message taught that Sunday even if we missed. For instance. Tom, on June the 22nd CHS taught a lesson on receiving an evil report, and though you were at the beach, you should have got the tape and now I’m taking this crown for not being accountable to your Pastor-Teacher. What a freaking crock camel dung. shalom GTP

david_munson

09-08-2006, 08:50 PM

Yeah,
I like being a "son on a beach."
(o)

}

sidethorn

09-08-2006, 09:42 PM

I heard plenty of this camel pucky too from my former GGWO pastor-teacher how God would judge you for EVERY service you ever missed. I never believed that and still spent some Sunday mornings on the roller coasters anyway. Carl's teachings are a load of crap. After all the Sundays not in church over the years, I never felt like turning away from God and always had fellowship with His people and a fair amount of church attendance too. This GGWO teaching about having to attend their churches every Sunday is pure horsecrap; spending a few Sundays a year at the beach, on the roller coasters, or somewhere else is not a sin. What Christ is interested in is your heart, not in 100 percent church attendance under the manipulation of a GGWO pastor-teacher.

whatsup

09-09-2006, 12:44 AM

At Greater Grace it was taught that God actually keeps a record of what services you were at, and Malachi 3:16 was used to teach this (taken totally out of context of course). And it was also taught that any time the word of God was being taught you should be there unless you were so sick you could not get out of bed, and if you were not then you were sinning. Once I was actually instructed to call certain people on a sunday morning and tell them that "pastor wants you in service"

gone_to_pa

09-09-2006, 04:01 PM

What's up,

You joking right? LOL LOL LOL http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
Glad you didn't call me when I was on my way to the beach. I would have joined Dave as another of the many sons of beaches. LOL

whatsup

09-09-2006, 04:15 PM

GTP...no joke...requested by CHS himself..."GET THEM OUT OF BED" was one remark I recall he made... and silly me actually made the calls

(Message edited by whatsup on September 09, 2006)

david_munson

09-11-2006, 12:52 PM

Don't you just love seeing bondage in action?

Let's take it a step further.
Suppose now that you are responsible for every message ever preached by every preacher that preached.
Now you're in real trouble but the truth is that this scenario is what is taught taken to it's logical extended conclusion.
If you are responsible for a message that you didn't hear then you're also responsible for every message preached by every preacher that preached.BECAUSE,you're responsible for every message that you missed.

Carl-ism to the max.

LOL
Bull feces extraordinaire.

}

sidethorn

09-11-2006, 06:15 PM

Carl wanted everyone in his services three times a week to control them and get so much into their heads, the people couldn't think for themselves and would be dependant on Carl and their pastor-teachers for more and more decisions and for teaching about God too. What do too many of these people end like?? Jim Buckley!!! They end up with a bunch of Bible verses in their heads but don't know what they mean. They end up thinking its a sin to think, or question anything, especially the teachings and actions of a pastor-teacher. You can end up with someone who would knowingly let the family from across the street join their old cultic church that they used to attend where known pedophiles are pastoring there just because they think the pedophile pastor claimed 'repentance', got their past 'covered' and its never the business of outsiders to expose anything going on in a 'church' no matter how dangerous it may be. Sometimes integrity and serving Jesus Christ means having the intestinal fortitude to publicly expose the wolves among us that we know about even when they are our former pastors. The heck with 'covering' and 'rebound' and 'delegated authority'. Someone who would abuse a child in any way whatsoever has no business standing at a pulpit saying anything!! Let all these creeps be publicly exposed and turned into the authorities. The safety and well being of children is what matters, not this self-righteous, cowardly Buckleyism that would rather cover up for corrupt pastors that abuse people. This is exactly the crap you can get when this Carlism really runs amuck. If this is the kind of message I would be missing by riding some roller coasters on a Sunday while the 'message' is being preached, let me miss the 'message' and enjoy the coasters. Let Carl and his bozos preach that I'm responsible for missing all those supposedly 'great' and 'superior' messages at GGWO. I don't give a rat's A$$. I don't miss their messages one bit and am much closer to God spending some Sundays in a real church and some others enjoying double loops, etc. on a great coaster. So great to be free of GGWO, Carlism, and Buckleyism forever!!!

cordell

09-11-2006, 07:53 PM

You guys would be edified by re-studying the doctrine of coverings (if I remember kerrickly there are seb'n of 'em--according to Carl--mebbe more by now).

I wish upon thee oh buckeyjimley the covering of Is.60:6a (only in the anointed KJV, please--no other will do) in particular, the 'a' part of the verse. bcuz ur sooo speshul.

(Message edited by cordell on September 11, 2006)

jim_buckley

09-29-2006, 06:24 AM

gone_to_pa

"Dan Lewis seemed to imply that he was directed to lie for his entire tenure at TBS/GGWO. And admitted to destroying families behind these lies. He was told to do this from the top and i don't mean Jesus."

Your statement says "seemed to imply", did he come right out and say these things? If, and I have only love and respect for Dan Lewis and in no way want to demean him, he was directed from "the top" to lie and families were destroyed then the responsibility rests on him. This thread is about integrity.

There are times in our "trials of faith" that we are forced into situations where we have to apply the Doctrine we have learned to honor and glorify Christ. Many times we don't believe there is enough Grace to see us through and therefore take what we think is the easy way out. Some would call it "going along to get along".

We are all weak vessels trying to know Christ as per Phil 3:10, but there are times we have to make hard decisions and if we don't many could suffer.

Also if we don't make the hard (right) decision we cannot blame some one else for that decision. If some one tells me to jump off a bridge and I do it, is it their fault I'm all banged up. No, it's my fault for jumping when I knew better, but I did it anyway.

We must always check our motives when making our decisions. I can't buy into the theory that Dan Lewis blames the men "at the top" for his actions. I know he is a man of integrity and accepts his own responsibility. Ed Lutz is the same way, he had a reason to leave, and I read a few of his posts (which were mainly about how him and his wife were getting along in there life), but he moved on quietly, him and his lovely wife from the Steel City. He's not blaming anyone for anything publically.

"Repentance is a gift of God."

I need more definition on this, do you mean that one cannot "change their mind" about Christ outside of the Grace of God? Please explain?

"When you have been born-again, there is fruit that follows."

Not always, it is not automatic. Only those who abide in Christ will bear fruit, Jn 15:1-11. Some prefer to avoid the Cross.

"Even dead works have their own fruit."

Again I seek definition, I don't know what this means. Gal 5 speaks of fruit vs deeds or karpos vs ergon. Karpos is from God and ergon is from the flesh.

sidethorn

09-29-2006, 06:34 AM

Every time a pastor slanders someone with lies and tells everyone to shut up about it because he claims 'repented' and then does it again, he's dodging the Cross. Every time someone advocates covering up for such a pastor simply because they don't attend his church anymore, they're dodging the Cross. Every time someone advocates covering up for a pastor for other reasons, they dodging the Cross. Carl Stevens and his men are predator wolves in sheep's clothing that need lots of public exposure of their continual corruption. The heck with what these men say about covering. Let them be exposed before more people are mislead and hurt by them.

jim_buckley

09-29-2006, 07:11 AM

sidethorn

Would you explain "The Doctrine of the Cross" to me? Or if you prefer I will explain it to you. But I would much rather hear it from you, since you seem to sound in advanced Doctrine.

dancer

09-29-2006, 11:05 AM

Jim your statements about Dr. Lewis seem like a bag of contradictions.

Dr. Lewis was a loyalist like no other till the day he knew Schaller would be Pastor. Dan Lewis, Skip Wood, Tom Powell and Company all knew that many in the camp would not sit under such a person.

As far as "doctrine" goes, I say do we crucify Christ again and again? I say no.

Do you think we should just sit back and let men lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, (I have not got to the 70's yet for every lie= a year).

sidethorn

09-29-2006, 01:11 PM

I think I already did explained some of it. If you want to really go to the Cross, its all about denying yourself and following Christ. Its all about admitting one is a sinner, turning away from their life of sin by deliberate choice, accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior by faith in everything He has done. Submitting to the Cross is also about exposing the wolves in sheep's clothing among us, not covering up for them just because they say they 'repented' when you don't even know if that 'repentance' is genuine or not. So spare us any lectures on the cross Jim, you've proven over and over again how unqualified you are to teach here. Its one thing to memorize a bunch of Scriptures and spew Them around, its another thing to know what those Scriptures really mean.

sidethorn

09-29-2006, 11:26 PM

So here is Ephesians 5:11 for you as a reference right here on this thread. AND DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE UNFRUITFUL DEEDS OF DARKNESS, BUT INSTEAD EVEN EXPOSE THEM. There you go Jim, no room exists for covering up for a pastor that continues to con people out of money, exploit them, teach falsehoods (geographical will, delegated authority etc.) and brainwashes people to serve himself. Ephesians 5:11 is a binding commandment here. The corrupt pastors and wolves in sheeps clothing are to be exposed. No exceptions for 'covering' are mentioned here. This verse applies all the time Jim. Got a problem with that, take it up with God. Real men and women of integrity will obey this commandment to expose the frauds, con artists, and wolves among us.

jim_buckley

10-12-2006, 03:38 AM

sidethorn

"Submitting to the Cross is also about exposing the wolves in sheep's clothing among us, not covering up for them just because they say they 'repented' when you don't even know if that 'repentance' is genuine or not. So spare us any lectures on the cross Jim, you've proven over and over again how unqualified you are to teach here."

Sorry bubba, I only say what is written, not what everyone wants to hear. BTW where did you study your Theology?

"This verse applies all the time Jim. Got a problem with that, take it up with God. Real men and women of integrity will obey this commandment to expose the frauds, con artists, and wolves among us."

Are you a single issue candidate? Some people actually study the FULL COUNCIL OF GOD! Not just selected passages to fortify an agenda.

cordell

10-12-2006, 03:59 AM

Council v. counsel.

you could look it up.

But yerignerantarncha?

jim_buckley

10-12-2006, 04:04 AM

cordell

"Council v. counsel.

you could look it up.

But yerignerantarncha?"

Thanks man, I knew you had a purpose in life.

cordell

10-12-2006, 04:41 AM

BTW where did you study your Theology?

And you studied yours where? J.T. Chick homestudy course? This is your church (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/) isn't it?

cordell

10-12-2006, 04:47 AM

BTW where did you study your Theology?

And you studied yours where? J.T. Chick homestudy course? This is your church (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/) isn't it? Are you wearing one of these? (http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist.14757126)

david_munson

10-12-2006, 03:05 PM

Mr.Buckley,
in-spite of all the cute little things said to you,I want to thank you for coming here and helping us to reveal the error in putting pastors on a pedestal.
You have done a remarkable job in expressing how the wrong doctrines and attitudes of enablement can produce such terrible problems like we see in GGWO.(by preaching them)

You have so kindly shown us how the misuse of scripture can "cover" sins and enable harm and abuse of others to continue.
(by excusing wicked unrepentent men)

You have shown us what a Spirit led life is not and for that I thank you.

God Bless you,
Dave

}

sidethorn

10-12-2006, 07:10 PM

Jim Buckley

Nobody on Factnet does a better job picking and choosing what Scriptures he wants to obey and twisting others like you do. You are one heck of a self righteous hypocrite Jim!!! You claim I have an agenda; you are the one with an agenda Jim. That is the cowardly covering up for con men and cult leaders that are ruining the lives of many people all over the country. You probably believe that every authority figure like a pastor of boss at an office is there because God appointed them to be there. Then because of that, you probably believe that none of them are ever to be questioned no matter what they do. That is all bull$hit Jim!!!! Many of these people are self appointed or insider appointed instead of God appointed. Many of these authority figures are in their positions and are outside the will of God. You can twist Scriptures all you want to try to refute me Jim. But the more you do, the more you show everyone how ignorant and unsubmitted to God's Word you really are.

You claim you say only what is written. You are dead wrong. Over and over again, you throw up your own words and claim them to be God's. Where did you get these words from anyway. From Knapp after crying on his lap over how many of us on Factnet refuse to believe in your crap?? Or was it from a different hypocritical pastor that doesn't know his stuff?? Or did you just come up with all this so called wisdom yourself??

People like you are the reason cults spread because you advocate not questioning anything or exposing the wolves in sheeps clothing around us. Cults thrive on silence and submission. No wonder GGWO advocated these things so strongly. The best way to combat cults like GGWO and other wolves is to publicly expose them. Jesus and His apostles publicly exposed the wolves of their day!! God is behind this whether you want to believe it or not Jim. You can twist Scripture all you want, but it won't work. The exposure of cults like GGWO will escalate and God will see to that. You can preach against it, but God will still raise up people as part of His plan to expose the cults. God's work will continue no matter how much you try to fight it.

SIDETHORN

(Message edited by sidethorn on October 12, 2006)

minutus

10-13-2006, 12:35 AM

Maybe he only comes out when the moon is full http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

cordell

10-13-2006, 01:59 AM

OOOOWWWWWOOOOO! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhSc8qVMjKM)

Spoof this Minutus!

(I miss Warren Zevon already)

cordell

10-14-2006, 03:30 PM

Here's a video that might be of help to you yiMmInYBucK. For your edification, of course! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HiuCaaQhxg)

bjerwin

10-15-2006, 05:08 PM

Buckley, positional vs. experential is the BIG POINT here that people are trying to make for you.

My pastor is speaking on Revelation. What Jesus said to the 3rd church is very vital, and it is totally what these folks in here are trying to tell you.... it is mentioned OVER and OVER in the New Testament, but somehow you miss it.

As you read the notes to the different churches, you see over and over the praise for those that STAND AGAINST false doctrine and have no part in it. This third church is no different. When we see false doctrine and we don't stand against it, TALK AGAINST IT, HAVE CHRIST'S INTEGRITY AGAINST IT, ALL the positional truth in the world will not save you from GOD's wrath. It is VERY important to the Lord that His Church stand against BAD TEACHERS and Bad Teaching.

Positional Truth goes with experiential living... one without the other is SICK. To stand on positional truth rather than fighting this evil teaching that breaks up families, that lives in a Nikolaitan (sp?) doctrine and is being the 3rd church.

You can believe as you do, however, I fear for you because you are WIPING out alot of the teaching in the New Testament, important teaching that is there for the good of the whole church, especially the young.

Please pray about this. You need to.