A Great New Opportunity

[cordell]

<font color="0000ff">COLORADO SPRINGS - Pastor Ted Haggard came out of his house Friday morning and admitted to 9NEWS he bought meth from a gay escort in Denver.</font>

Isn't it true that in humor, sex and politics--timing is everything.

<font color="0000ff"> Mr. Haggard resigned as president of the evangelical association and stepped aside as senior pastor of the New Life mega-church in Colorado Springs, Colo., on Thursday after Michael Forest Jones, a self-described former gay prostitute, accused him of having a sexual affair for three years and using the drug, commonly known as crystal meth, during those encounters.

Earlier, in an e-mail message sent to parishioners and obtained by local news media, Ross Parsley, the acting pastor of the New Life Church said, “It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true.” </font>

So, the church there in Colorado Springs has a way to bring this man into discipline, and apparently (as a video interview indicates) he is in submission to these 'overseers' in the process.

That's the good part. The world will watch now as evangelicals clean their own house.

No doubt, the church in Colorado Springs will go through some process of choosing a new 'Senior Pastor'. And another man can now face the microscopic scrutiny of the office along with its lonely isolation.

It's high time we got rid of the office of 'Senior Pastor'--particularly here in America where we thrive on personality cults. We inadvertently relate the congregation to the personality--as in this quote from Dr. James Dobson:

<font color="0000ff">"Ted has been my close friend and colleague for many years," said Dobson. "He will continue to be my friend, even if the worst allegations prove accurate. Nevertheless, sexual sin, whether homosexual or heterosexual, has serious consequences, and we are extremely concerned for Ted, his family and his church."</font>

His church. Ted's church. Time to change the system.

[whatsup]

I am not naive, and I am not a spiritual snob, and I am definitely not someone who thinks I am better or more spiritual than anyone else....but I find it incomprehensible that a man could lead a church and preach from the bible and live a life of secret sin like that. Either live what you preach or go live in sin...but why be secretly hypocritical and in the end hurt and disillusion so many people and affect their faith. And yes, I know it should not affect their faith, but it does. Ted Haggard, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Carl Stevens.....the whole thing just turns my stomach. And once again, the world laughs at the "born again Christians"

[cordell]

"Senior Pastors", "God's Five-Star Generals in God's Army", "Great Servants of God" whatever you want to call them--are just simply not biblical in the way we in America have construed the 'office'.

The Bible tells us that churches should have elders. The word is used in the sense that single churches had plural elders--not little dictators or mini-stars who carried the church on the power of their personality.

God's power is in the preaching of the gospel, and all elders are called to be able teachers. All are called to do the work of an evangelist. We have attached peculiarly cultural interpretations on the offices of the church and every now and then we see something like this happen, yet we fail to see that the system is flawed.

Ted Haggard said that he went to Denver to write while staying in hotels. Why was it so important that his church--and others--be filled with helpful spiritual books by Pastor Ted? Why did he find it necessary to isolate himself to write? I know pastors in my denomination who are busy during every lunchtime of every weekday, who are constantly networking or are in meetings of one kind or another. Then they are preparing for this conference or studying for that sermon series. They see this as "feeding the flock of God."

But is it really?

There is a labor mentioned in the study of and teaching of the scriptures--but that is why we need multiple elders in our larger churches. The office was not designed to be filled by a single man.

[isabella]

Pastor Ted, who talks to President George W. Bush or his advisers every Monday, is a handsome forty-eight-year-old Indianan, most comfortable in denim.

“I teach a strong ideology of the use of power,” he says, “of military might, as a public service.” He is for preemptive war, because he believes the Bible's exhortations against sin set for us a preemptive paradigm, and he is for ferocious war, because “the Bible's bloody. There's a lot about blood.”

Hag-art (Haggard) is just another LTM (Little Tiny Man) who is/was the leader of TNEA...The National Evangelical Association (can you say thirty million?)

So much for organized religion.

I would like to suggest that we do not need 'Senior Pastors' (as Cordell has already said) and I would also like to suggest that we also do not need to have 'overseers'

Give me a break please.

Get Out Organized Religion...Get Out!

Thank you very much....

Where are you, Liquid Waves???

[orangetwopay]

ROCK ON ISERBELER! WE'LL GET ROIGHT ON THIS ONQAEEE AFTER THE NEXT OROUND!!!!

[isabella]

OK THEN!

[isabella]

OK THEN!

[ghost_story]

Whatsup...
"sceret sin"...?? what perfect words to describe TBS/GGWO authority...
It should not be a surprise to anyone...these stories are just becoming more sad as the YEARS go on...all the people dedicated to this ministry...giving their trust to "the autority" of men who continue to live their lives in "secret sin"
I am no longer feeling sorry for myself for the merely 3 years I gave my 'mind' to this ministry...but instead my prayers are going out to others and my gratitude that I am no longer a part of such deception. So sad....

[lmao]

The good news about Haggard is that he stepped down and resigned. The question now is will he go off live the life he wants without trying to be a leader in the church or will he allow some of his more adoring followers to raise him up in some new ministry where he will either claim that his sin was ok or that he is all better now?

I agree with Whatsup. Let 'em live what they preach. Chs has never admitted to anything. It has never mattered to him who he had to lie about to cover his sins. He thought he was too important to God's work in this age to ever admit to anything that might jeopardize his position. Schaller is just as bad when he only tells part of the story of how he got his job.

[sofree]

Another one bites the dust for organized religion.

[cordell]

The problem is not that religion is organized. The problem is with HOW it is organized and by whom. The Holy Spirit leads that all things should be done decently and in order. The problem, as usual, is syncretism--when we start mixing in elements of our culture into our worship of God. Americans are consumed with personalities, celebrities, stars of stage, screen and television. We have bestowed this status on persons who Christ called to be footwashers.

This from Proverbs 30:21ff:

<font color="0000ff">21 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:

22 <font color="ff0000">For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat</font>;

23 For an odious woman when she is married; and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.</font>

While many religions may be followed in solitude and isolation, Christianity by its very nature (in that Christ died to save his people from their sins and make them a part of his body) is not one of them in that the practice of the religion must be done in the context of what the Bible calls "church".

While we may eschew the church as merely an 'organization' (and I agree with that position, particularly because there are so many who see the church as a business and pastors as CEOs) we must see it as having some sort of order that emanates from the teachings of Christ and his words.

Christ turned typical organization on its head when he said:

<font color="0000ff">Matthew 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. 25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.</font>

Jesus Christ is ever the example for leaders in the church and in spite of Andrew Lloyd Webber he was never a superstar.

[cordell]

And this is poignant from Rudyard Kipling:

<font color="0000ff">The Servant When He Reigneth
"For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear. For a servant when he reigneth, and a fool when he is filled with meat; for an odious woman when she is married, and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress." -- PROV. XXX. 21-22-23.

Three things make earth unquiet
And four she cannot brook
The godly Agur counted them
And put them in a book --
Those Four Tremendous Curses
With which mankind is cursed;
But a Servant when He Reigneth
Old Agur entered first.
An Handmaid that is Mistress
We need not call upon.
A Fool when he is full of Meat
Will fall asleep anon.
An Odious Woman Married
May bear a babe and mend;
But a Servant when He Reigneth
Is Confusion to the end.

His feet are swift to tumult,
His hands are slow to toil,
His ears are deaf to reason,
His lips are loud in broil.
He knows no use for power
Except to show his might.
He gives no heed to judgment
Unless it prove him right.

Because he served a master
Before his Kingship came,
And hid in all disaster
Behind his master's name,
So, when his Folly opens
The unnecessary hells,
A Servant when He Reigneth
Throws the blame on some one else.

<font color="ff0000">His vows are lightly spoken,
<u>His faith is hard to bind,
His trust is easy boken,
He fears his fellow-kind</u>.
The nearest mob will move him
To break the pledge he gave --
Oh, a Servant when he Reigneth
Is more than ever slave!</font></font>

[lmao]

From what I have been able to gather from the news and here on factnet, it seems that in spite of Ted Haggard's celebrity status, his church was able to hold him accountable and remove him. It shows that in this case, it was not about the man, but the ministry. Gg will not reform or repent because that would indicate a flaw in the man.

[cordell]

The church did hold him accountable and they did remove him. He is apparently submitting to church discipline. That's the good part.

The bad part is that this church is going to search for another Senior Pastor who can step in and be in the spotlight, under the microscope and the focus of all that goes on at that church. The problem wasn't just with the man, it is with the position as well.

[sidethorn]

As long as a man is put in the spotlight by his position instead of Christ in the churches, there will always be trouble.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
People just love the pedistile mentality.
Man is designed to worship and will find something or someone to give it to.

I don't know why fellow memebers in any congregation should not take turns letting the Holy Spirit speak ,while other memebers bare witness through the Spirit and the Word.

The same goes for "house meetings."

People speak as they are moved if they are allowed to.
Of course there should be a witness in the Spirit to what they are saying and it obviously shouldn't violate any principles laid forth in scripture.(did that really need saying?)

You folks hit the American mentality concerning "pastors" right on the head.

Hey,
I got a new description for such things,
"Hollychurch".http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

LW will probably jump on that one.

Once again ICHMS,LOL
</font>}

[sofree]

sidethorn - you know it!

If Christ came to serve humbly, never demanding special treatment - even though He was the Son of God, then who do these "pastors" think they are? They are not servants. They are self-serving. Self. Self. Self.

[sofree]

Cordell - then define true religion as the Bible states. Organized religion, especially in America, is nowhere near what God intended.

It boggles my mind how quickly people are forgotten when they leave a church.

"Organized" for what purpose? What is the main goal of the majority of these churches? Is it to grow a ministry? Or is it to reach out with the love of Christ whether or not those on the receiving end belong to that particular ministry? Do these "organized" churches reach out beyond themselves without expecting anything in return, being satisfied with the wonderful reality that they were the arms and heart of Christ? Or do they reach out with expectation that those on the receiving end will join their system and reproduce for them? Unfortunately, an organized system that has the true heart of Christ is very rare. The American "Christian" church has missed the mark and it is about time they reexamined their motives.

[whatsup]

I agree that organized religion is corrupt and not what God intended the true church to be. The catholic church is probably the biggest example of that. However, I disagree that the problem was not with Ted Haggard but with his position. The problem definitely WAS with Ted Haggard. He admits in his letter that he had long struggled with dark desires, and that had nothing to do with being senior pastor. I believe there has to be an order in the church. Dave M says "I dont know why fellow members in any congregation should not take turns letting the Holy Spirit speak, while other members bear witness through the Spirit and the Word....People speak as they are moved". Well, I can tell you that would be total chaos. Many people think the Holy Spirit is speaking through them when it is just their own emotions or thoughts. I have been in church services where people randomly stand up and "prophesy" or shout out things, supposedly from the Lord....who or what is to be the deciding factor of whether or not that is the Holy Spirit? Usually they are quoting scripture. Satan can do that too. Human nature would make this type of church service a disaster. Not to mention the fact that God has called some to be teachers, and we go to church to be taught as well as to worship. We are not taught by just anyone who feels moved by the "Spirit" to shout out. It would be a side show. I do not believe in idolizing pastors or putting them on pedestals, but I do believe that there should be leaders and order in the services, and not everyone is equally in charge in those situations.

[johncollins]

What's Up -- you're right that Dave's "let people speak as they are moved" could soon become chaos.

Some teaching can be very objective, citing source material instead of making it all up and then claiming "God told me."

In an objective way, how does a member in the pew know that anything the leaders claim truly is inspired by God?

This is an honest question for anyone caring to tackle it.

There are always some who will support any self proclaimed teacher who comes along, and history is littered with their corpses. Too often, the corpses are literal (http://www.firelightmedia.org/).

So when the teacher / pastor / prophet comes along, how do you recognize him / her as being of God? What if lots of intelligent, educated people "feel good" listening to the charismatic speaker? If you leave a sermon or class feeling better than when you arrived, is that the proof that God wants you and others there? If the group has a list of good works they can point to -- is that the proof? If they endure some form of "persecution" and seem to endure -- is that the proof?

Seems to me that nearly every group that comes along can claim all the above, and more. If they're not all equally of God -- which ones are, and how do you know?

[sidethorn]

How true Sofree. I've seen it many times how people are quickly forgotten when they leave a church. Too often some people are forgotten even while they're still in the church!!! Like the ones who won't break their backs to prop the pastor higher and higher on his pedestal, find even brighter spotlights to shine on him, fit into his little cliques of "yes men" and "yes women", and serve his every whim. Like the down and out who don't have a big income to tithe into the church. Like the sick and hurting people who don't "have as much to offer to the pastor's agenda". Instead of humility, agape love, respect for all, and true submission to Christ, many American churches have pastors and inner circles craving more power, influence, bigger and bigger budgets, bigger and bigger buildings, more and more suckups to reproduce more suckups to enlarge the pastor's kingdom and bank account and on and on. Time for many American churches to wake up and set aside the egos, politics, manipulation of people to give more and more, arrogance, thirst for the spotlight, hunger for the biggest megachurch building in town, and all the running of ministries like a big business. God never intended for His people to fit into a pastor's program and clique system. He wants the pastors to help equip and support the people to grow in Christ and His Kingdom. Let the spotlight be on Christ alone and nobody else!!!

[cordell]

<font color="0000ff">Organized religion, especially in America, is nowhere near what God intended.</font>

I think I agreed with that, it is not that religion is organized but HOW and by WHOM.

Christianity, in order to be called that, needs to have people meeting together as a church in which the gospel is preached, the symbols of the body and blood of Christ are offered in remembrance of Him, and where those attending are exhorted and encouraged to live Christlike lives. This situation requires some sort of order and some degree of organization. The New Testament in 1Cor.14 along with other places in the epistles, especially the pastorals make this pretty clear.

Our problem in America has always been syncretism. We confuse American ideals and values with Christian ideals and values. Independence is an American ideal. It is not a Christian ideal. Self-sufficiency is an American ideal. It is not a Christian ideal. Innovation and entrepreneurialism are American ideals--they are not particularly helpful concepts in worship--unless you are intent on bilking people.

<font color="0000ff">However, I disagree that the problem was not with Ted Haggard but with his position.</font>

Yes, Haggard had a problem. But the greater problem is what happens when guys with problems get into pulpits and become the focus of an entire church.

The New Testament requires a plurality of elders--all of whom should be able teachers--none of whom should rise above the stature of a footwasher or a foodservice worker, i.e. "Feed My Sheep" (see the scriptures above). I am not sure that the New Testament necessarily requires the equality of elders (although that's not entirely a bad idea) in that some are likely to be older and more experienced than others--but they all need to be in the position to look out for one another (see 1 Tim. 5:19ff).

Wherever people meet together for religious purposes you will find some sort of liturgy. While the word may be offensive to many, the actual reality is unavoidable--whether there is 45 minutes of 'praise and worship' a sermon, a skit, a dance, an offering and a song good-bye--there is always a liturgy of sorts. Personally, I find the ancient ones binding the leaders from doing stupid things publicly much better than the more modern ones and the older liturgies provide for much more participation from the congregation--which in America has become an 'audience' subjected to 'worship' couched in entertainment. Entertainment after all is an American thing which we all value--that is why we all love actors from Hollywood so much. And of course, entertainment only requires that we shut up, sit down and watch the show--and of course pay for the ticket or put money in the plate.

So yeah, Haggard had a problem. His position as 'Senior Pastor' out there as a one-man show entertaining a 14,000 member 'congregation' is a bigger one. Why? Because that system will always allow Haggards.

[littlesister]

Isn't it intersting that way back in the late 70's when Billy Graham's ministry came to critique the Bible Speaks that it said it could become great and powerful IF it got rid of its divine authority doctrine and established checks and balances to its leadership. Hmmmm....guess we didn't hear that one loud and clear from the pulpit. We are still talking human beings here - sinners saved by grace. Why Sr Pastors like these believe they've been "perfected" already is beyond me. Kind of takes your need for a Saviour away. In my walk some of the greatest revelations for my life have come from the lowlyest member of the body.

[cordell]

<font color="0000ff">In my walk some of the greatest revelations for my life have come from the lowlyest member of the body.</font>

Pastors ought to aim to be just that--the most lowly member of the body of Christ.

[sofree]

sidethorn - amen. I am sure there are small hometown churches out there who are quietly serving the Lord, their community and each other, in the true love of Christ. That is why we never hear about them! We don't need megachurches. We need churches that function in the simplicity of Jesus Christ.

[sofree]

cordell - you know it. Pastors who serve with humility are a rarity.

[cordell]

We have just joined on to a new church plant in our denomination. Our new pastor is 32 years old (married with two little kids) and is a Westminster (Dallas) graduate. We moved recently into a new location and he showed up with his pickup to help me move the heaviest furniture. I was late back from work, so he loaded up on his own and met me at the new place. When he left he said, "whenever you need the truck, just let me know." This guy is not superstar quality. He doesn't have the height, looks, or delivery. What he has is a heart for God's own, and for the lost. This is the third church plant in this denomination we've been in on--and I'm more enthusiastic about this one than any of the others. We won't be calling this "Aaron's church".

[isabella]

Pastors should go home to their families...

We don't need them...

They will not go home because so many are insecure in their own beliefs...

Listen to your own heart....

Bible School? Theologians? Oranized Religion?

Noone should tell you what to think unless you can't think for yourself.

I know a compassionate person when I see him, he could be a bum on the street or an executive in his office but he shows his compassionate heart in spite of himself.

[cordell]

<font color="0000ff">Eph.4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;

and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ...</font>

Not being perfected yet, still needing to be edified in the body of Christ, still needing to be built up and directed away from the sleight of men, their craftiness and windy doctrine, still wanting to be fitted and joined with other members of Christ's body, still desiring to do the work of the ministry, still seeing that we are not grown up yet into Christ, I guess I am one of those who needs pastors and teachers, especially since God says He gives them (that doesn't mean they're faultless or infallible).

Who am I to turn down what God in his grace gives from the benefit of his resurrection?

My wife thinks I am a gift, but that doesn't stop her from letting me know that I'm far from perfect.

Pastors were never intended to be 'over' us in the sense we were taught, which is what Jesus warned against when he cautioned the disciples against 'lording' it over others.

He came to minister, not to be ministered unto.

That is the example.

As far as 'theology' goes, everyone is a theologian.

Not everyone does theology well.

Can't speak for others but listening to my heart (Jer.17:9) usually gets me into trouble.

[cordell]

Church bulletins reveal a lot about what you may be getting yourself into. This is what we encountered in the first paragraph of ours last Sunday morning:

<font color="0000ff">We hope that this is a place where you feel welcomed and loved. We hope that this is a place where the word of God is clear and the fellowship real. This is a place where hope is found. We ourselves are not perfect. We all find ourselves hopeless and rely totally on the work that Jesus Christ has done for us. Come and worship with us...</font>

[bruder5]

Mark Twain once said that, "the difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug." Church bulletins that read like that offer hope and has an elusive poetic mandate and quality to it. The western church is in need of gracious words that are future creating rather then the rhetoric of the empire that is mind numbing and hopeless.

[duncwashburn]

Cordell,

I like your writings a lot better when you are not making fun of someone, (even though I don't always agree with you).

Sincerely in Christ,

Duncan

[cordell]

Just read the ones you like. I am sure that the pharisees loved Jesus (and no, I don't have a messiah complex) when he lambasted his disciples for their lack of faith instead of picking on them for their hypocrisy. dunc there is a time and place for everything, but still, in spite of opinions to the contrary--I don't expect everybody to agree with me or like what I have to say all the time.

[isabella]

"Can't speak for others but listening to my heart (Jer.17:9) usually gets me into trouble."

What's wrong with your heart?

[whatsup]

it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...who can know it??

[cordell]

Well, what next? Do these things happen in twos or threes? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061211/ap_on_re_us/pastor_gay_sex)

[listener]

Did the Catholic abuse scandal occur in twos or threes?

But on another note, if Christians are determined to assimilate and emulate the culture, are they anymore salt and light?