Suicide

[ncarrick (ncarrick)]

I hate to ask but what if something happens to me or somebody like me because of this pain.

Do you think the likes of staffers will wake up?

I think that maybe people who are not leaders but on staff realize that people have been really hurt and maybe be putting people in harms way by not saying

"we need to make this right" but if they see one of their own former friends go to grave it will hit home.

I often think of how those who were close to me didn't seem to care one way about my life.

My wife and wife have suffered much during the times of depression. Can you imagine how badly it would have been for them if I didn't make it.

It is Christmas time and I wonder how hard it is for people who call you friend sleep when they know they have never made what is wrong, right by their inactions.

I am not suicidal, but I am in depression over much that has happened with what has and not happened with GGWO and Keri's parents.

Maybe Pastor Stevens would say something like I was sick and he did all he could.

I know their elders who know almost everything, they have decided in an almost public way to ignore making things right.

If something happens to me at least there is a public record of some of the wrongs.

Like many court observers will tell you, people rarely lie about such things in this type of situation. I am opening myself up to a lot of put downs by saying what I have. But if was to die tommorow I would hope that somebody would remember what happened while I was hurt.

Neil

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Neil
Please don't think this way about yourself. I know things are very hard. Look at my "explosion" last week, I finally got a grip on the anger I was burying inside, fooling myself that I wasn't that angry...yeah right. It felt so good later on after the fact to just let it out. I never expected the response I got from people here on Factnet either. I didn't write the post to draw anyone's attention to me personally. People reached out to me via phone, email and direct visits to my house, for which all I can say to them is this:...thank you...thank you for your outpouring of love and your ongoing friendship to me. I was deeply touched, I guess I never believed people really do care about me after my GGWO experiences....to know they care and that they have really walked in my shoes helped more than words could ever say here.

Neil, the same people on here that care for me, they care for you as well. Please don't fall into depression again. Try each day to find something good about yourself -- it should be very easy for you to do that. Thank God for that good quality...and then go to the Lord in prayer. Keep your heart knit with His. Its truly the only thing that works. Yes those waves of depression hit us all at times. Its happened to many of us posting on here. But don't be discouraged Neil. God is not mocked.
He will fight this battle for you. Put your trust in Him again. He won't let you down.
Don't give up.

I tell myself the same things.

Take care....remember God loves you and so do we.

Maria

[plaid (plaid)]

I don't know you at all, but I would like to ask if you are seeing a dr? You don't need to answer. I have suffered with mental health issue for most of my life, and withing the last 5 years have made tremendous progress with medication, talk therapy, and behavioral modification.
The behavior modifications helps tremendously when I hit the low spots when self injury seems appealing. I have ways now that I remind myself that this is the way I am FEELING but it is not REALITY.
Additionaly, there has been lots of research on short-term therapy to help people deal with extreme situations that are effecting their mental health.
There is NO shame, no sin, nothing at all wrong with seeking help for mental healt issues. It it were a person with diabeties, no one would question the use of insulin to keep them healthy. This is how I see medication for my brain - it is heping me stay healthy.
Please take care. If you are making plans for ending your life, please call a suicide hotline, tell a loved one, something. People who care about you will suffer greatly if your are not here!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Mental health issues are biological and genetic. They also are triggered by environmental factors. Often medication and various types of therapy can help. I think it's important for those who suffer both to find others they can really rely on, and at the same time to seek to find things that work for them personally. I would strongly say that these kinds of conditions exist in degree in us all. If you suffer strongly, it is not because you are flawed or less valuable than others. You are a treasure, uniquely created by God with particular things in mind. You are in process, as are we all. Look for the treasure in yourself; expect the Lord to show it to you. He has unique things to give through you.

I also would suggest that you seek to find a few people you know who are intercessors and would be willing to fast and pray for you regularly. I believe the Lord intends to really move in this area.

One other thing jumps to mind. Many seem to think that mental illness is just satanic. I don't believe this. What I think is that it is a natural weakness that the other kingdom often seeks to make use of. But remember that God uses weak things to bring down what seems strong. Our strength is in Him; and we are all weak.

[ncarrick (ncarrick)]

plaid & others,

I think on e of the major reasons I fear for my life is that when I get depressed the stigma of who or what I am is directly affected by what happened when I got depressed in the past.

When I got depressed in 1999, 2000 and was depressed I relied on people who were close to me, and this included family and friends who were involved at GGWO. After having the likes of S. Monroe and others actually encourage my demise because they knew of my depression, and my wife being manipuated into encouraging it as well I am incredibly fearful to this day of loosing my wife and family.

I like this premise that a person looks for help for attention. The absolute garbage I go through after I get depressed and suicidal is unreal. I recently lost a close friend because they found out about my depression and had to deal with me for about an hour in the state of mind.

In my state there are almost no good in patient facilties for short term care. I went to a local emergancy room, and the attending physcian was very forward with my wife and friends that if I went into any facility I would most likely be worst for it all.He said that the best thing to do was basically wait out my body.If I can get past 72 hours I usually pass through a danger zone.

My wife has been a real trooper. She has been very forward and honest with me that one of the main reasons she will not allow me to push her away is because she knows that I push people away when I am depressed. That I get better when I am taken care of, instead of worse.

She is very up front that she believes that when people tried to keep her away from her it was not for her or my children. It was to see me either buy into their religion or die. "He will either be ok or kill himself statements".

Medications have somewhat worked but not anti-depressants. I do not suffer with a typical bi-polar depression. I get severe depression. Often I think it has a connection to my personal health, rest, etc.

It is almost unreal in its depth and short time periods.

I been a counselor for nearly 15 years myself.If I was telling myself what to do, it would be pretty much what others have suggested with medical attention. I admit that I have failed myself when it comes to this task.Mainly out of fear of a repeat of loosing my family and a failed medical community in the area I live in.But the lights go off in my head when I hear quotes from the likes of my friends who actualy mocked my depression in church. The place I would have thought would be a little more understanding in all ways,

I sat beside these guys sometimes for years.They lived to be Shepherds not those who would seek out somebodies demise.

[plaid (plaid)]

There are some new medications that seem to work differently than some of the older ones, they might be able to help you get a handle on the darkest of the feelings for a bit, it's really worth a try. I know meds are often a "lets this one and see" and it gets really frustrating, but it is worth it to find real help.

I know that lost of mental health professionals also receive thier own counseling - my therapist shared that she herself had received therapy for some issues. Often a person OUTSIDE of the feelings is the best person to help.

This is a bad season for depression, I feel sometimes like I can see it on the horizen as soon as they start putting up the holdiday decorations http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif.

I hope you can find some peace. Please make sure to let your wife know when you need help.

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Neil,
I went through depression and was out of work for months. I had a boss that pushed everyone to produce more than we could. He expected the married men to give as much as a single person could. Between that and family pressing for more time there was too much tension and I broke. At the time I was not Christian and got counseling and medications. But the problem wasn't as some suppose a biological or chemical imbalance. During my time I found Christ and began reading the Bible. It wasn't until I came to Christ and saw my worth in God's eyes and understood God's plan and purpose did I see myself and my life in a whole new light. My family doctor saw me after that and she and the therapist agreed that I didn't have any need for medications or any more therapy. I have to say I was "transformed by the renewing of my mind". I don't let others tell me what I'm supposed to behave like, do, how much, etc. I let the word of God and the Holy Spirit do that and they're never wrong.

To tell you how different it was. When I accepted Christ my wife was not saved and almost to the point of divorcing me as she didn't understand my faith. I was strong enough that with the help of the Lord I stood the test of that, my work, and all. Anyone else under depression, facing the possiblity of divorce would have done it even for me without Christ. But thank God my wife is saved and both my children.

I'm not saying you shouldn't seek help. You should but also not neglecting what the word of God says about who you are, your worth, etc. God can use any situation to bring you closer to Him and do what He wants to move you where you need to be in your walk.

Even the prophets and apostles got depressed. But it wasn't until they got a good dose of how God saw things that they realized how trivial their thinking was and how Satan was attacking them at a weak time.

We have a merciful and loving Father waiting to hold you and comfort you. Don't let Satan tell you lies and beat you down. Us guys are fix-it types and want to fix everything. But sometimes we need to depend on family, friends, but mostly God to help us through. We always want to do it ourselves but sometimes things don't work that way. The best time I ever had was our family taking a vacation to the beach. I got away from work and all. Just us. I got a chance to clear my head and began to sort out some of the problems I had faced. Not to mention a good dose of Bible reading and prayer. Hmmm, was that a prescription? lol

Hey, if you go to Florida take me. It's supposed to get down to -4 by thursday. ewwww

M or Michael

[muskyrose (muskyrose)]

Neil, Thank you for being candid about your illness. One can tell your thought process while depressed, is clear. I don't know if this will help or not but Approximately 40 million people live with depression, bipolar and anxiety disorders each year. Think about it...40 million people...can they ALL be wrong?? Can they all be weak? Can they ALL be not trusting God? I don't think so.

The leading cause of disability in the U.S. is mental illnes-3 of the 10 leading causes of disabilities are major depression, bipolar disorder, and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Lack of treatment is the primary reasons for the high prevalence of disability. So many people refuse to admit they have a problem and live in denial. Sometimes they appear to get better but other times the symptoms worsen and that is where the trouble really begins.

According to the National Institute of Mental Health, between 70% and 60% of those living with depressive, bipolar, and anxiety disorders can be effectively treated and return to their normal daily activities and lives.

There is help out there it is just a matter of finding it, and utilizing it to the fullest. Unfortunately mental health issues are not a high priority on many Govt lists and there have been cuts in human service agencies that service those in need.

Neil, I don't know what you have in your area but if you go to www.nami.org (http://www.nami.org) you can look up your state and find out where they are located for your area. This is an advocacy organization that will work with you and your family to help you in any way they can to help you find mental health services and to see that none of your rights are violated. This organization fights to combat the stigma of mental illnesses through advocacy, education and support.
Neil, I shall continue to keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers, as I have over these past few months. If I can help in some small way You know where to find me.

<>>>>>>>>>-------Bonnie

(Message edited by muskyrose on December 22, 2004)

[muskyrose (muskyrose)]

Mike, it's great that once you found Christ things changed for you. Your depression sounds as if it was related more on your life circumstances at the time. Which is legitimate. There is depression that is related to what is going on in a persons life. Say life changes such as marriage problems, divorce, death in the family, illness of a loved one, etc. You know the scenero.

Sometimes depression can be lifted just by the situation changing, an attitude change or a heart change in your case.

But sometimes depression is a bit more. There is an organic/biological reason why someone is suffering from depression. It isn't because they lack faith or they don't love God or they don't believe His word. Those who live with depression believe very much and it causes them great agony to not be able to rise above their affliction.
Mike, please understand some people just cannot do what you did, simply because their depression IS biological. It isn't that they lack faith or they are living in sin. They aren't neglecting the Word. Most likely they are condeming themselves for failing and not living up to what everyone says are Gods standards.

Next time you (collective you) meet someone who says they suffer from depression be gentle enough to give them a bit of Gods grace and understanding instead of telling them to just believe in the Word and they will get through it. You (collective you) really don't know what is going on inside of their brain. What would it hurt to minister a bit of grace and love towards a brother or sister who suffers from depression?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Love is patient. Love is kind. Love seeks to serve.

[gostly (gostly)]

Neil, I also suffer from depression often. I try to relate it to light, deaths, and I can relate it to some of that but the worst (and I am not saying you are experiencing this)time was when my first son was born.I cried almost constantly barely able to take care of the baby let alone myself. I was not saved then and life was dark. It took me three years of hysterics, doctors and medicine just to keep me from taking my life. My husband was supportive but didn't understand my illness. I was afraid but the love for my son kept me going. I started experiencing strange occurences in my home.....like smoke detectors constantly going off for no reason, motion sensing things going off in my home when no one was there, answering machine messages with 30 minutes of children giggling(it seemed demonic), and the scariest thing of all was the small funny looking man with the long nose and funny walk that would catch my eye but I never quite saw. It still gives me goosebumps and raises the hair on the back of my neck. I never told anyone until this year about this because I thought I was crazy.I know now that what I was experiencing was spiritual warfare. God was fighting for my soul. When I realized that my whole outlook on life has changed. I realized that God took the time to fight for me, that I was worth everything to Him. Neil, I know that some people think that this is crazy, but I believe with all my heart God Physically went to battle with something for me. I know that I am grateful and I know I am worthy of his love and mostly I matter to Him and I love him with all my heart. I also know that He is not looking for perfection but my Love and my willingness to please him. I also believe that God gave me a gift enduring such a long dark path because I understand the place you are in. I to am an ex-ggnd and I made it through that too. With God I am strong but what made the biggest impact on my life is knowing God would fight for my soul. I know also I should rely on faith but it sure made a difference to me that I saw something and God defeated it. I know his power is greater that any force any where. God loves you no matter what and to him you are not damaged goods with imperfections. I have a tenderness in my heart for people who go through these things. Love and God Bless your friend C

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

muskyrose,
I thought I had made that allowance in my wording especially in the third paragraph. I was relating my experience is all. Sorry if it sounded more dogmatic than I meant it. I agree there can be other causes. We must seek whatever means possible but as I stated not neglecting the power of the Word.

Hope that clears up any misconception about my intent.

M or Michael

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Muskyrose,
I'm not sure where you got it that I said "instead of telling them to just believe in the Word and they will get through it." Again I think it was reading more into it than warranted. Otherwise someone might do the same of your prior note that said only of medical explanations. Just trying to make sure I'm not taken too extreme more than what I intended at all.

M or Michael

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Neil,

You know that I believe in medication and Dr.s, so this is coming form the balance you have known me to have. Please, with all else you may do, hang on to this quote.

“The essence of optimism is that it takes no account of the present, but it is a source of inspiration, of vitality and hope where others have resigned; it enables a man to hold his head high, to claim the future for himself and not to abandon it to his enemy.”

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Kathleen and I are going to California for Christmas, but if you will EMail me your phone number I will call you this weekend.

God bless you, I love you, and that is not TBS BS

Ralph

[free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)]

Neil,

You sound very discouraged and
perhaps feel misunderstood, used
and unheard. Please, if you are considering a specific date and method for your contemplations
of your own demise check yourself into an inpatient Christian facility and give yourself a break, because even Jonah became "angry unto death" after God changed His mind about punishing Nineveh!

FTBO

free_to_be_off

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Dear Neil,
I'll keep you in my prayers thru the Holiday season. I know what its like to go through some intense times of depression. Love up your family, build up yourself, stay in fellowship with the Lord and with Christians that will build you up not tear you down. Don't let one negative thought try to take over your mind. Think of the many blessings God has given you and put GGWO on a back burner for a season til you are stronger.

Hope that helps, can't hurt to try it. Pick your favorite bible verse and meditate on it. Sing some praise songs and Christmas carol's with your family.
Don't isolate yourself. Its not a good thing to do.
love Maria

[ncarrick (ncarrick)]

Guys,

I appreciate your kind words.It has been a tough year but God has sttod by us.

I will awake on Monday and start looking at sending off certified and register letters about the actions Keri and me will be taking against those who decided not to resolve these matters months ago.

Christmas is bittersweet for us.I confess I have become distant from my own beliefs because of the damage done to me. but I am resolute about holding fast to those things which are good.

I will be ok and I will somehow make it.If anything for my children. I have become very involved in mission efforts in other countries and gives me some hope and some determination to keep believing.

I have had some pretty major changes in my belief system since leaving GGWO.When I was at Greater Grace i heard of Grace. Now I am forced to live in it.

[doug (doug)]

Interesting piece from one of the more successful psychiatrists in the NYC area I heard on the radio -
Depression is a problem dealing with anger and is fear based. Anger is a signal that we don't know what is going on and it doesn't always go away if we ignore it.



Mostly (perhaps 90-99%? of the time)I don't buy the chemical imbalance organic cause doctrine. I look deeper and ask what caused the chemicals to imbalance.

I would be very cautious as to a doctors diagnosis of "chemical" or "organic" depression and thoroughly question how they determined it.

Drugs may buy us time until we are ready to face the root of our problem but they are dangerous in the sense that they too often take away the symptom without curing the root problem. They are often used as an escape and properly prescribed medications are a leading cause of death.
Perhaps a person becomes complacent in their illness and medications show them what it is like to be normal but eventually like a crutch they should be discarded and the person should learn to be normal without them.
The relationship one has with a therapist may help a person for a time but can also weaken a person if they do not develope internally that relationship within their mind. I have a helper that lives in me.


My Experience and Cure of What May Have Been Diagnosed as Chemical Imbalance or Organic Depression
<font color="0000ff">I used to think depression was only repressed anger and in part it is. I had a depressed feeling one day and I started to wake up every day with it but I knew I was not depressed, I didn't identify with it but stood back and observed it.

I figured the light of conscience would eventually drive away anything that was not good and if it were good I'd learn its lesson (if you don't learn your lessons you become a moron)

Every morning I would sit and meditate and watch this feeling that seemed to lurk in my mind all day and come out in the morning.

It hung in there for almost a year. One day I was driving a truck and not paying close attention. The truck in front of me stopped and I looked up just in time to get this big adrenalin rush and stop about 2 feet from the truck in front of me.

All of a sudden I realized that the feeling of depression was exactly the same as the adrenalin rush, FEAR! As soon as I realized it was fear the depression went away. Naming it is half the cure.

I knew it was fear but what was I afraid of?
The reason the depression went away is because these things have a persona to them. They thrive in dark places like funguses or mold that live off of dying and decaying matter but the light of truth and conscience scares them like light kills fungus. I was not cured yet but it went into hiding.
What was I afraid of.

I continued to be vigilant waiting for it to pop up its ugly head. One day I had a disagreement with my wife and she resorted to threatening to leave me or something like that. All of a sudden I saw that fear come to me and I said, I know I am right, or even if I am not I am going to do nothing out of fear and I am a man and not a child so what's to fear?

I realized that I had a fear of abandonment which came from my childhood and being woman centered through being traumatised by my mother. That spirit in the woman from the first woman, Eve "Mother of all living" was passed on to me and I became woman centered rather than God centered through the inner knowing (original blueprint, paradise that was lost, innocence lost) he puts in us.

When you are a child you have a natural inner curiosity of things that have meaning to you and you learn things through that God given wonder as you are ready to learn things. When we are traumatised we respond to the outer environment instead of what we know from our heart.

When we respond to trauma, external pressure that is abrasive to our conscience, a new nature is born in us that is not really us. That's the persona I was talking about.

A new nature is born in us and it seeks its creator, the trauma experience(s). We then become externally motivated responding to the environment like puppets on a string and our lives are not our own. We are not self controlled. It brings on a nature that is not natural to us.

If someone is traumatized, lets say a woman is raped by a skinny man who smells like beer. After that she may be attracted by skinny men that smell like beer or they'll have some kind of affect on her. Often after being raped a person becomes promiscuous. If your beaten by a man with a badge in a blue uniform it'll be men with badges in blue uniforms that you will be conditioned to respond to.</font>

"In some cases, young girls who are molested and abused by male authority figures may be attracted to men who have some characteristics of their abuser, but these are usually personality traits. This can lead to the victim of abuse trying to gain approval from this other figure because she never got the approval from the abuser in her childhood/teen years.

Sensory reminders - smell of beer, certain hair styles, body types, foods associated with the traumatic events - are rarely associated with attraction and often bring on psychotic breaks. This can happen years after the event and when the victim has felt recovered and is in a healthy sexual relationship with a loving partner.

Young girls who become sexually promiscuous do many times have dysfunctional family backgrounds, most often not something as horrible as incest/molestation, but often the more common father who is just not available for his children." (Quote from part of Plaid's (66.91.59.248) post on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 2:58 am in my thread on Trauma)


<font color="0000ff">When a duck hatches out of its egg it takes the first thing it sees to be its mother and follows it around. That's what we do, seek things that support that persona when we are traumatised. Our carnal eyes are opened and our spiritual eyes are closed like Adam and Eve in Eden when their eyes were opened. Do you know the story? It describes the whole human condition in a few paragraphs better than any psychology book can.

We have to get in touch with that innocence lost, in ourselves, go back to the garden (but not like the hippies did by running around naked on drugs and trying to be vegetarians)

I knew that if I didn't face my fear that horrible depression would come back and make a home in me again. Awareness cures. You need to learn how to meditate in the manner the bible call Being still. Of your self you can do nothing so don't roll up your sleeves to try to solve with your ego (pride) problems ego creates. Awareness cures without your might or power. You are powerless.

The spirit of truth cures. Being objective to your self and subject to what you know in your heart is right. You are lost in your thoughts like a person who fell into their computer and you need to come out of your thoughts and sit at the keyboard, so to speak. That's what it means to "Be still and know that I am God"

The Objective State
The objective state is the state where you relive the trauma as an observer of your own reactions. Every time we relive a trauma we are hurt again. That is called resentment. We are more hurt by the resentment than the actual trauma. If we broke our leg playing we would not be traumatised but because of our resentment, hatred, of the evil done us we are traumatised and separated from our true self, our inner man.

The purpose of evil is to upset us. Hate being wrong the evil we hate gets in us through getting us to hate, upsetting us. It is often easier to overcome a later trauma than the ones inflicted on us from our parents all the way back to the garden of Eden when Adam failed to correct Eve, needed her to be wrong to justify himself, and subjected our whole race to separation from God. The inner man is Christ in us leading us back to God but most people have a hypno-christianity that is based on words and that false self rather than reality. We think because we have the words we have what the words mean. The words that are supposed to lead us to salvation end up mixing in our heads with all the other garbage in us and come back twisted justifying everything wrong with us. I don't have time to go into it in detail now.</font>



I say if we got in touch with our un or sub conscious (or whatever it's called) thoughts or thought process through non hypnotic meditation in God's spirit of truth we would have a lot more control over our mind simply by awareness. We would see how full of resentments and hatred we are and learn to forgive and realize that it is a fault that lies within us and also inherited from before birth through original sin and cured through regression with Christ. Why coddle people and tell them it isn't their fault?
You can take drugs for awhile if you don't know what to do (or not do) but eventually you will have to find faith in Christ and put the drugs aside if you want true healing and not a substitute which can waste years of our life.
They say homosexuals are just born that way and it is genetic and it is no one's fault but it is their fault if they don't overcome it.

Perhaps in my next post I could explain what I mean by "regression in Christ" "back to the garden of Eden".

[plaid (plaid)]

Medication makes it possible for me to be a good mother, wife, friend, citizen. The tone of your post is really odd, and it frightens me that someone here who could benefit from medical treatment would read what you write and hesitate to see a medial dr.

And why on earth did you quote that post from me? It has nothing to do with Neil's post, and seems to be entirely taken out of context.

[doug (doug)]

Plaid
Why is the tone of my post odd? This is a thread titled suicide and has a lot about depression in it. My post is about how I was healed from and strengthened against what is commonly called depression. I quoted from you because that is what you corrected me on when I posted my story on the trauma thread. You thought my understanding of trauma reactions was off and you corrected me. I liked what you said so I put it in there. I found it edifying.

Doesn't it frighten you that someday you may suffer from the side effects of your medications? Wouldn't you like to be <font color="0000ff">a good mother, wife, friend, citizen</font> without drugs?

I recommend seeking an expert among experts who is highly recommended by professionals, someone such as Roy Masters at www.fhu.com (http://www.fhu.com), and learning to meditate rather than medicate.

"Roy Masters is the greatest living teacher of psychology. His writings illuminate the unconscious motivations of human behavior and provide for the reader a dazzling blueprint for action and personal growth." -Dr. George M. Hayter, Psychiatrist Chairman, Department of Psychiatry St. Joseph's Hospital, Orange, California

"After reading this book, (How to Conquer Negative Emotions), you will not be the same. It represents to psychology what jet travel represents to the horse and buggy." -Paul Bahder, M.D. Princeton, New Jersey

"This book (The Hypnosis of Life) is a survival manual, leading you step by step towards becoming free from the subconscious pressures of your life. Beyond Socrates, beyond Freud, Roy Masters brings you face to face with the reality of your own being. Will you dare to see the truth?" -Teresa Bahder, M.A. Clinical Psychologist Princeton New Jersey

"Right on target! Roy Masters revitalizes ageless wisdom. For many, one hour with Roy Masters will be more beneficial than years of traditional insight psychotherapy." -Clancy D. MacKenzie Director of Philadelphia Psychiatric Consultation Service

"What a pleasure and honor it is to endorse this book!
"I have had many years of training in the science of medicine. I have taught in universities and made contributions to medical literature and spent many years in private practice; then I heard Roy Masters' radio program. I must admit I was shocked at first, but I listened.
"Although some of his statements appear contradictory to traditional scientific beliefs, I sensed an underlying ring of Truth. I was intrigued and sent for the literature.
"I was astounded to find how right-on his principles were and how they filled in the gap I had always felt was missing in modern medicine. Today's fundamental misconception that science is the Truth is clearly rectified by what Roy Masters teaches.
"The Foundation of Human Understanding has been a great help to me in my work with many difficult problem patients.
"I must warn you, however, this book is not for everyone." -Albert R. MacKenzie, M.D.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

First we have David Alexander pumping the freakin' Twelve Tribes and now we have Doug, back again with bloody Roy Masters.

Plaid, pay no attention to Doug. He is yet another troll pumping his candidate to replace Carl as your favorite nonsensical twit.

[doug (doug)]

Who wrote this Jim?
<font color="0000ff">As far as the attacks go, the internet--and factnet in particular can be a very volatile environment. Tempers flare, we butt heads--we have a diversity of interests, perspectives, personalities, weaknesses, doctrines, etc. While it is difficult at times to tenaciously stay on course with scriptural emphasis, perhaps that is the best direction to take. Sometimes it is wise to take a step back and decide what your purpose in being on factnet is, cling to that reason and then press on. There are many people on factnet that disagree with me--but we all have a right to be here--even the silly trolls. Someone recently wrote to me:

"It is clear to any reader where a person stands by the integrity of what he/she writes. The Word will always offend but a person can use the Word to draw a person to a higher level or can use it as a wedge and divide. It is troublesome that those who are immature and those who excuse obedience to the Word dilute the integrity of what is presented on Factnet, but if at all possible, they need to be brought to a higher standard in a wise way."

I have thought a lot about that and in the future will always try to stick to Scriptures and attempt to stay on the high ground, this is good advice.</font>
Please do Jim. Rather than judge me use your own advice on me. I see a bunch of people here pumping drugs via doctors and I have a right to recommend something I see as a better alternative. Perhaps you can show me the higher ground rather than slander me as a troll and judge me as a nonsensical twit. Perhaps this reflects on your walk with Jesus, your behavior towards me, what does that make you?

[plaid (plaid)]

pumping drugs? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

Thank God I have come to peace with my situation! It's been many years and many different drs and other professionals, to get me to where I am today. I am healthy, happy, I handle situations well, I take care of my family. I have a relationship with God that brings me peace.
I also have a mental illness that can affect the way I see the world, and for this I take medication. I am not pumping drugs, I am not getting high, or whatever many people who do not understand physchiatric medication feel.
I'm glad you got help without medication. That's great. Not everyone can. Those of us who find successful treatment via medication are not more pumping drugs than someone who depends on insulin to stay healthy.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Doug,
The nonsensical twit in the case of David Alexander is his 'Yoneq' the be all end all of apostolic modern day prophets--why--because he does not represent the Christ of the Scriptures, Carl Stevens allows his followers to heap adulation upon him and Roy Masters is no better. It is he that I refered to as the nonsensical twit you are pumping. He has been around long enough that all one need do is a simple google search to find that he is as aberrant in his doctrine as is any of the others mentioned if not more so. As far as sticking to the scriptures go, Doug:

Ephes. 5:11 (ESV)
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Sure Doug, troll on, you and David Alexander and all others--you have the right. And I have the right to expose your nonsense--for that is precisely what Roy Masters, Yoneq, Gene Edwards, you, and David Alexander have in common. Anyone can go to the site you recommend, visit the Statement of Belief and see that Roy Masters attempts to talk the talk while remaining a charlatan who attempts to 'heal' people with esoteric gobbledegook and psychobabble--things to DO rather than a PERSON TO KNOW. His view of the Trinity is problematic, which makes his view of Christ problematic which makes his view of Salvation unbiblical.

Like Carl Stevens and the Twelve Tribes 'Yoneq' Roy Masters is a wolf in sheep's clothing and a hireling--and you Doug are either naive or misinformed if you believe any of his rubbish. I commend you to the Gospel of Christ which is summarized here:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

Believe on Him, trust Him to save you by grace through faith and repent of your sin. Find your way to a church that teaches the Scriptures alone and not the inane ramblings of someone like Roy Masters.

It should be clear to anyone reading that when a person gives a solution to a problem recommending some 'man's thinking' as THE answer that there is something problematic in the very core of that thinking.

Doug, apparently you don't see the difficulty of going from Carl Stevens to Roy Masters. This leads me to question your critical thinking skills. You are posting on a site where the majority of the posts are a result of deception carried on principally by one man and his disciples. Why in the world would anyone with half a lick of sense want to come on these threads and pump the likes of a very obvious charlatan like Roy Masters? American 'popular' Christianity is full of the crap spewed forth on a daily basis by the likes of Roy, Benny Hinn, the Copelands, Paul Crouch and the big hair lady, and all sorts of others who've lined their pockets by taking advantage of the simple minded person who has forsaken the real Christ. P.T. Barnum was right--suckers are born every minute and a fool and his money are soon parted. A simple glance at the front page of Roy Masters website should indicate to all but the absolute thickest of planks that Roy wants you to use your mastercard or visa to bless him. You would be much better off buying a good bottle of cream sherry or even two and having a good belt before praying "now I lay me down to sleep." The scriptures do not teach us that we need our mind to keep us well as Masters teaches. The Bible is not a book mainly about how to be healed in our minds but rather that we should be renewed in them by trusting Christ.

You wrote: "I see a bunch of people here pumping drugs via doctors and I have a right to recommend something I see as a better alternative."

Yes, Doug it is all about your rights isn't it? It is really all about you being more qualified and sensible than medical practitioners that deal with patients every day. It is all about you being able to get on here and impugn them and recommend what? Roy Masters and his psychobabble? Great. Here is a blurb pumping one of Roy's books "Beyond the Known":

Overcoming all your problems can be very simple; all it requires is a willingness to take an honest look at yourself. The secret to happiness, confidence, and real inner peace is a light-hearted attitude toward self-discovery.

I'm sorry Doug, I react to the phrase "overcoming all your problems can be very simple" the same way I react to someone telling me to put away my Bible and learn about the Church. The only place to find out about what God wants us to know about the Church is in the Bible, and the Bible also tells us that in this life it is quite bloody normal for us to have tribulations--in fact overcoming my problems is not exactly what God wants me or you for that matter to focus on. Paul proclaimed his thorn in the flesh, whatever malady it may have been, was something he would boast in:

2 Cor. 12:7-9 (ESV)
So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. [8] Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. [9] But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The problem with all these Gurus in Christian guise is that they are peculiar in their emphasis as someone put it "Jesus plus something else." To Carl Stevens it is Jesus plus soulwinning, worldwide vision, the one pastor teacher and all sorts of other goulash. To David Alexander and Yoneq it is Jesus plus giving up everything you own to them. To Roy Masters it's Jesus plus meditation and diet and following his plan for this or that, i.e. "What is the real cause of unhappiness, and what is the cure?. Few people have the courage or insight to see the truth behind our suffering: chronic negative emotions." Chronic negative emotions? Is that what you think is the truth behind our suffering, Doug? It couldn't possibly be SIN or anything the Bible mentions could it? So the answer is overcoming chronic negative emotions? Is that salvation? So now it is Dr. Jesus the Shrink instead of Savior and Lord?

I repeat, Roy Masters is a nonsensical twit. Please think twice and yet again before you pump him on here as an alternative to either Carl Stevens or drugs prescribed by a physician.

There is a connection by the way between Yoneq and Gene Edwards that goes back to the 80s when Gene was looking for Jesus plus community as "the" answer--they got together to see if they had common ground. Too much ego on both sides I suspect--one cult can't stand TWO infallible apostles.

[doug (doug)]

Jim,

Your <font color="0000ff">unbiblical</font> name calling isn't exposing anything but your condescending opinions.
<font color="0000ff">Nonesensical twit, troll, charlatan, unbiblical,
wolf in sheep's clothing and a hireling, naive or misinformed, rubbish, ramblings. simple minded person who has forsaken the real Christ. suckers, fool, the absolute thickest of planks.</font>


<font color="0000ff">Yes, Doug it is all about your rights isn't it? It is really all about you being more qualified and sensible than medical practitioners that deal with patients every day. It is all about you being able to get on here and impugn them and recommend what? Roy Masters and his psychobabble?</font>
I happen to respect one of my closest friends who has been a psychiatrist for about 40 or 50 years and Armond Demille who I quoted, a well known psychiatrist with a track record.

These are seasoned leaders in the profession who "pump" Roy and most of them deal with people every day
"<font color="119911">Roy Masters is the greatest living teacher of psychology. His writings illuminate the unconscious motivations of human behavior and provide for the reader a dazzling blueprint for action and personal growth</font>." -<font color="ff0000">Dr. George M. Hayter, Psychiatrist Chairman, Department of Psychiatry St. Joseph's Hospital, Orange, California</font>

"<font color="119911">After reading this book, (How to Conquer Negative Emotions), you will not be the same. It represents to psychology what jet travel represents to the horse and buggy.</font>" -<font color="ff0000">Paul Bahder, M.D. Princeton, New Jersey</font>

"<font color="119911">This book (The Hypnosis of Life) is a survival manual, leading you step by step towards becoming free from the subconscious pressures of your life. Beyond Socrates, beyond Freud, Roy Masters brings you face to face with the reality of your own being. Will you dare to see the truth?</font>" -<font color="ff0000">Teresa Bahder, M.A. Clinical Psychologist Princeton New Jersey</font>

"<font color="119911">Right on target! Roy Masters revitalizes ageless wisdom. For many, one hour with Roy Masters will be more beneficial than years of traditional insight psychotherapy.</font>" -<font color="ff0000">Clancy D. MacKenzie Director of Philadelphia Psychiatric Consultation Service</font>

"<font color="119911">What a pleasure and honor it is to endorse this book!
"I have had many years of training in the science of medicine. I have taught in universities and made contributions to medical literature and spent many years in private practice; then I heard Roy Masters' radio program. I must admit I was shocked at first, but I listened.
"Although some of his statements appear contradictory to traditional scientific beliefs, I sensed an underlying ring of Truth. I was intrigued and sent for the literature.
"I was astounded to find how right-on his principles were and how they filled in the gap I had always felt was missing in modern medicine. Today's fundamental misconception that science is the Truth is clearly rectified by what Roy Masters teaches.
"The Foundation of Human Understanding has been a great help to me in my work with many difficult problem patients.
"I must warn you, however, this book is not for everyone.</font>" -<font color="ff0000">Albert R. MacKenzie, M.D.</font>
A few among many professionals in the mental health field who deal with patients every day who have based much of their practice on Roy Masters teachings.


<font color="0000ff">The scriptures do not teach us that we need our mind to keep us well as Masters teaches. The Bible is not a book mainly about how to be healed in our minds but rather that we should be renewed in them by trusting Christ.</font>
Roy doesn't teach that one does those things without the holy spirit. He helped me to see many things about my mind that I was doing to resist the renewing of my mind by the holy spirit.



<font color="0000ff">Carl Stevens allows his followers to heap adulation upon him</font>
I know nothing about Carl Stephens. I do know Elbert Sprigs "Yoneq". I lived with him for about a year of the 3 and a half years I lived in his community 25 years ago. I posted a teaching of his, to show what he is like, where David Alexander is proselytising.

As far as Roy Masters goes, I don't follow him. I don't recommend anyone following him, just listen and learn and go on your merry way like I did. I see where he's coming from and I understand the things he teaches differently than you do and unlike Sprigs and probably your Carl Stephens he doesn't have a church you can join. You can listen to him and call in and speak to him free and if you are too poor you can get his meditation tape for free. If you want him to make tapes for you or books he charges money. He reveals his modest salary, which was less than I was making, at the time I heard him state it, as a common laborer, and he uses the rest of the money he gets to pay for radio programs which are free and according to him he makes his own investments apart from his foundations money. When Carter was president he took all the money from his organization and put it into gold and recommended everyone else to do the same. A wise decision as Carter caused great inflation and the price of gold went from about $80 to $300 plus in a short time. As good advice as he gives on many matters.

As far as his open debates go with people like Walter Martins "The Bible Answer Man", who accused him of similar things that you accused him of, to my hearing he wiped the floor with Walter Martins.



<font color="0000ff">I commend you to the Gospel of Christ which is summarized here:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.</font>
You commend these things along with Yoneq and Masters and me who all believe the same thing but see it differently.

If you want to debate any of these issues that don't relate to depression I recommend you put aside your excessive name calling, which doesn't impress me, and we start a thread on Roy Masters teachings or whatever you want to discuss or debate.

[doug (doug)]

Plaid
<font color="0000ff">I am not pumping drugs, I am not getting high, or whatever many people who do not understand physchiatric medication feel.</font>
I was responding to Jim's attempts to degrade me "<font color="119911">He is yet another troll pumping his candidate to replace Carl as your favorite nonsensical twit.</font>"
I'm sorry I insulted you.

In high school I was terrified of psychiatric medications after seeing people who got caught under the influence of LSD get put on medications and become zombies and 2 of 3 of them I knew successfully committed suicide and the one who didn't succeed has retrograde amnesia from the attempt. The ones who didn't get caught had a much better survival rate than the ones put on meds who were no different than the ones who got caught.

Someone I know was abusive and flipped out when he lost control of his ex wife when she met someone 6 years after he divorced her. Something about that loss of control terrified him and he never faced his fears. He is now on medications and has successfully completed school but still has suicidal thoughts and I don't know if there is much hope of his overcoming his fears but if God wants to he can speak to him and heal him in spite of the medications.

I don't know much about diabetes but a local church took a kid off their insulin and the kid died, so I recommend facing fears but not quitting your meds if you need them to live or stay healthy unless you're sure in your heart that God is telling you to. I don't recommend quitting unless you don't need them any more.

[brad (brad)]

Doug:
Have your ever heard of RICHARD H. COX President Emeritus/Professor of the Forest Institute, an accredited graduate school of professional psychology, the Forest Foundation, and its related clinics and services. He is a charter member of the American Association of Pastoral Counselors (retired) and an ordained Presbyterian (U.S.A.) minister. Richard H. Cox is the author of numerous scholarly publications, is an international speaker and consultant, and holds doctorate degrees in psychology, medicine, and theology, as well as three honorary doctorates. He resides in Colorado. Now this man can help you for sure. All those thinking of suicide!

Brad

[brad (brad)]

Issues of the Soul: The Core and Ethic of some of the Most Important Aspects of Life and Death


The Sacrament of Psychology: Psychology and Religion in the Postmodern American Church

[doug (doug)]

Brad
He sounds like an interesting speaker. I'd like to look up some of his publications but I'm getting ready for bed and a possibly long week.
I wasn't thinking of suicide and I am not depressed but I like to seek understanding and insight from people of understanding.
Thanks

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Doug,
Some of the terms that I used in my "name calling" are biblical. I get quite angry when people come on here and attempt to replace one cultic practice for another. Your own posts concerning Roy Masters in the most glowing of language will be obvious to all but the most gullible of persons that Roy's message is about Roy not Christ--there is no gospel there at all. That is why Roy pumps a METHOD not a PERSON-- Jesus Christ. Hence the names are quite appropriate--snake oil salesmen comes to mind as well. If you buy into his drivel, you will not find the real Savior there.

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 27, 2004)

[ncarrick (ncarrick)]

I got to tell you that of all the good things that came out of the nonsense that happened to me during the whole nightmare with GGWO and my speraration from my wife was when I was in the hospital I ended up on a drug for my anxiety that helped.

I have never ever been on a drug for depression that helped for any long term period but the medication that I recieved for anxiety has been a great help.

Any Christian who things that medication isn't a real help to people who get depressed or suffer from a similar problem, or worse think it it is unbiblical are just plain unrealistic.

I think those who think that somehow the mind cannot have biological issues should go join a Christian Science group out of fairness to the rest of us who hold to the Creator of humans as being a logical and rational God.

Certainly there is a spiritual side to this, but would you say to a person with Cancer to stay away from there medicine. Would you tell a diabetic to flee from insulin.

Neil

[muskyrose (muskyrose)]

Neil I think the 40 Million people living with this illness would be proud of you! I know I am! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif You tell him Neil!

70% to 80% of those living with depression, bipolar, and anxiety diosorders can be EFFECTIVELY treated and return to their normal daily activities and lives.

[free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)]

What we are talking about here is the age old "Nature/Nurture" issue! To date, I don't believe there are any definitive answers to this "which came first, the chicken or the egg" inquiry. Evidently, Neil's case may be biogenic in nature, or at least controlled with pharmaceuticals! It scientifically invalid to draw "blanket conclusions" and place gross generalizations on people out of fear! Neil, I too am proud of your strong testimony regarding this very important stigma! Sadly, Christians have a tendency to over "spiritualize" things; hence, preventing helpful interventions and inducing shame. God bless you and your family and keep your eyes on Jesus not fallible man BUT don't feel ashamed by utilizing better living via pharmaceutical intervention!

FTBO

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hey Neil; There have always been those here that have made fun of you or attacked you. But at the same time many of us here are praying for you and welcome your presence here. Don't let other people drag you away from whatever it is that really helps you.

[doug (doug)]

Jim
<font color="0000ff">Doug,
Some of the terms that I used in my "name calling" are biblical. I get quite angry when people come on here and attempt to replace one cultic practice for another. Your own posts concerning Roy Masters in the most glowing of language will be obvious to all but the most gullible of persons that Roy's message is about Roy not Christ--there is no gospel there at all. That is why Roy pumps a METHOD not a PERSON-- Jesus Christ. Hence the names are quite appropriate--snake oil salesmen comes to mind as well. If you buy into his drivel, you will not find the real Savior there.</font>

Your shotgun of names whether found in the bible or not don't prove a thing. I reflected your own word "unbiblical" at you but I wasn't talking about the names themselves.

What cultic practice are you talking about? Replacing medications with meditation?

I can show you plenty of bible scriptures to back up what I shared about how I was healed from depression, doesn't necessarily make me right but would be more circumspect than your angry words.


<font color="0000ff">It is really all about you being more qualified and sensible than medical practitioners that deal with patients every day.</font>
I already made my point about him. I showed that you are wrong about this and that many qualified medical practitioners, not me, believe him qualified. You stated your opinion about Roy and used your source, opinion and anger.

Like I said, your opinions and names you call Roy Masters or me don't make you right and anytime you want to start a separate thread to debate it I'll be glad to but this is not the place.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Doug,
If you want to debate Roy Masters I am as game as anyone. Here or on any thread you want to start. You say these folks are qualified practitioners. So? They are promo people that Roy uses to promote Roy. Real Christians lead people to Christ NOT A METHOD. The Christian gospel is not primarily about you getting over your depression with or without drugs. In fact the Christian gospel is about meeting a need that you will probably never feel at all--the need for RIGHTEOUSNESS to be able to stand before God. Cultists use the Scriptures to proof text their crap doctrines--that we've had plenty of from the others we've already referenced.

You say you have nothing to do with Carl Stevens. Why are you here? Are you fishing like Alexander and his minions? What is your purpose? Got nothing better to do?

This place is as good as any. I am pretty sure Neil won't mind, as he's already made it clear his own stand on the medical help he's received.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I liked Roy Rogers better than Roy Masters. It was so sad when Trigger died. Jim, did the Lone Ranger's horse have a name, or did he just give one to his Indian?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Hiyo _ _ _ _ _ _, Away!

"I'll take famous TV horse names for $100, Alex."

[brad (brad)]

What is Silver, Alex

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif}

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

And his revival Indian was named 'Toronto'?

[free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)]

Don't be ridiculous Bob...everyone knows it was 'Montreal' silly! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

FTBO

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

And Kimo Sabe means:
a) Trusty Scout
b) Toady Snout
c) Stupid Cowboy

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I've been told it means 'clueless', so I'll choose 'c'. Tonto is good too.

[doug (doug)]

<font color="0000ff">You say you have nothing to do with Carl Stevens. Why are you here? Are you fishing like Alexander and his minions? What is your purpose? Got nothing better to do?</font>
I was invited here by one of your posters who saw me posting on another thread and liked some of my post. I posted under "Trauma". You are welcome to read it but nothing about Masters on that one. I post here when I'm done doing the "better" things and work.
Why do you post here?

[doug (doug)]

Jim
When I was in college taking psychology we read this study where a bunch of professionals checked themselves into mental institutions.

The only thing they lied about was they said that they heard a voice that said "Empty" and "Thud". Otherwise they told the truth about everything.

While they were there the patients came up to them and said "You're not crazy/ Why are you here? Are you a reporter? A spy?" stuff like that.

The doctors diagnosed them with borderline schizophrenia. Everything they did was seen in a biased light. The doctors read all kinds of jive into their family history and if they took notes or wrote it was "obsessive compulsive note taking" If they weren't close to their father or mother it was some kind of pathology and these were normally adjusted professionals telling the truth about their lives.

My point is that the professionals missed the obvious that the patients saw and the doctors, professionals, were biased by their training.

That is how I feel you are concerning Roy Masters. You have a lot of religious training and you use a lot of labels but no understanding of where the man is coming from.
He uses methods "Christ is not a method"
I use methods as a guideline to teach my son math. My brother gave me two things to remember to teach me how to sky and how to study for a test. Roy gives a few methods for the purpose of showing the person. Words themselves are only symbols, they are not God. Once they find what he is talking about they don't need him or the method.

[veritas (veritas)]

Doug:

With respect, can't you please take the Roy Masters thing to Jim off the board? A debate about him (Roy) and Jim's slant is off target here. These discussions are skewed enough without more argument. AND it's irrelevant to GGWO. You can reach Jim at somebonus at yahoo dot com.

Thanking you in advance.

Veritas

[doug (doug)]

Veritas
Exactly my sentiment. You should address that to Jim. He assured me that it was ok to debate it here <font color="0000ff">This place is as good as any. I am pretty sure Neil won't mind,</font> As I see he does not speak for everyone here I will no longer respond to this subject here. He can e mail me at chasemyra@verizon.net
You're welcome, and thank you too

[dancer (dancer)]

With all due respect maybe this is the end for a persons life tonight.

Maybe Factnet will have its first suicide.

[dancer (dancer)]

In fact I think many will be able to guess who it is going to be.

I wonder if any of the elders will feel good about this when they wake up?

[heather (heather)]

The elders wont give a fat flying funk, they never have and never will. There is no reconcilliation going on, there is no repentance going on period. Im sure they only wish those of us that are at the breaking point would do it, do it quickly and do it quietly. Too bad for them my God raised me out of that place and made me bigger better and badder than them and a hell of alot louder. Im sure they liked it better when I was in that place but I like it much better here. Sooo leadership I will be here when you go to bed I will be here when you wake up I will be here when you do your dirty deeds. I will call every agency in both states, every politician I know, every law enforcement I know ohhhh and then I will wake up and do it all over again tomorrow. hmm wonder how the elders feel about that? Wonder if I give a rats behind? Oh PS keep calling me Im enjoying the *57 feature on my phone and your desperation. WoW and God doesnt use women??? Who told you dummies that?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"With all due respect maybe this is the end for a persons life tonight.

Maybe Factnet will have its first suicide."

Dancer...this is not funny. If you know someone in danger your responsibility to intervene is imperative.

[isabella (isabella)]

Right RJ.
Dancer, what's going on?

[plaid (plaid)]

If anyone has any idea that a person is thinking of harming themselves, it is vital to stay with them. If you aren't with them, call a crisis line or 911. Do something.

Suicide attempts can mean many things, and are often the only way a person can get help. People this deep in despair are not thinking clearly, they truly need help and quickly.

Please, if you have any suspicions, get this person help immediately.

[heather (heather)]

Praise God..I love each day that I wake up to find you have slandered me to someone else. TO find that you have stooped to telling bold face lies about me makes me dance with joy. To envision you with the Bible open on your desk pointing saying "see I didnt say it, God said it, It is God who says Heather is evil" makes me giddy with laughter. God doesnt show you the pattern he has shown me so clearly. Every time you raise your hand against me with your maligning,slander, lies that very hand comes back to bite you. God unveils another family and leads them out. You are the sower of your own discord dear, you dont need me or anyone else to do it. You stooped so low as to slander my 7 yr old. My what big men we have at GG. Big puppets on very thin strings. Perhaps you had to go after my children in case I ever came forward with what happened to them that you covered up. I am walking In my Fathers will, I am on my face asking HIM to guide my steps. It is HE who has opened all these doors for me. Keep that in mind as you and those poor excuse for men in your inner circle keep attacking me. Continue playing messages for people, continue doctoring tapes, continue your paper house of lies agaisnt me. I will continue to praise My God who has been so faithful in guiding my steps, providing people literally out if nowhere to take my case and go forward with it. With every vile word you speak about me GOD reveals I am on the right path.

[isabella (isabella)]

Heather,
What is going on here? I guess I missed the first part of this thread. You showed up here last night with a similar post and my first thought was that you were in extreme distress.

You have given us enough information to know that they are bothering you with phone calls and innuendose about your character.

I have seen what they have done to families. I have seen them scandalize people who ask them a simple question.

Heather, we know, and God knows that these guys will do whatever they have to do to keep their own place, keep the money they take from people who are unaware that they love the money more than they care about the people. They love their positions (that Stevens gave them), even as he is claimed by sin and disease.

Don't misunderstand my question. I have seen what they do, but you need to calm down..

Heather, I know what they do to families because I have seen them do it, but I can't imagine that you would knuckle under and not confront them.

You need to spell it out for us. If you are correct that they would slander a child, we need to go to them and confront them. This is not such a difficult thing to do, you don't have to go it alone. I'm sure there are many here on factnet.org who will go with you...to Baltimore and confront them.

Please, Heather, calm down and speak to us about this situation.

I am praying that God will help us and I am praying for you. Please pray for me.

These people will do whatever they have to do to keep their place in this world, but, you Heather, do not need to fight them alone.

Please write your email address so I can contact you.

Love, Isabella

[red (red)]

Heather,

Get up, dust yourself off, girl. Change your phone numbers. Get restraining/protective orders. NO ONE has the right to do what is being done to you. Keep all correspondence you receive, and turn it in. You are working yourself up needlessly. The only one hurting here is you.

You are perfect in the Father's eyes. Listen, can you hear Him? His thoughts of you are as the sands of the seas - they cannot be counted. He knew you before you were; He called you by name while still in your mother's womb. He bottles your tears - they are precious to Him. Your name is engraved in the palm of His hand. He will never forsake you, nor leave you.

Nothing else matters! Please, don't entertain those idiots, if even in your thoughts.

Red

[heather (heather)]

Perhaps I came across as distressed in my post, and I think the first part is on another thread ( blond moment) I really do rejoice when they slander me because God made it clear he leads another family out of Greater Disgrace each time they do. I have saved all correspondence and phone messages and have filed charges. Each time they raise thier hand against me, it comes back to slap them in the face. I appreciate your concern Red and isabella. GOD picked me up and dusted me off a while back. My screen name is Badnblond01@aol.com

[wyoming (wyoming)]

.
Jim Faucett:

I can't believe how vicious you have been to Doug. So... he's a zealot. So what? You come across as a man of anger, cursings, and bitternes, contrary to the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's like you have not matured enough to control your emotions. You are not a very nice man.

.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Neil...
Where have you been lately? We haven't heard a word from you here on Factnet. Are you ok?

Maria

[roseanna (roseanna)]

I know a Heather with a 7 year old. I'd like to write to you if you are that Heather. Have you identified yourself on this board? I don't want to ask too much if you are trying to remain anonymous.
Did you used to mentor middle school girls in the day school?
I'd like to connect with you if you are that Heather. I'm out of Gg, left in April. Not using my real name here.

[ncarrick (ncarrick)]

Maria,

Thanks for asking. I am OK.

I have to try and seperate myself from some of the things going on.Everytime I visit the world of GGWO in my mind it brings up an almost automatic depression in me. I can't explain. But distance is usually good.

I will drop by and have been communicating with people from GGWO (present and past) including some Pastors across the globe. I prefer the personal touch rather than some of the more "open" tuff.

I am praying that those who have been hurt like me will hopefully find some peace, friendship, and hope from others.

It is tough knowing that as long as I live I may not be able to undo the damage done.

God has his own timing.

In His Peace,

Neil

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hey Neil, A lot of us here pray for you. If there are particular things or events or people that you want some prayer for, feel free to email me at bob.brinton@verizon.net

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Glad to hear that you are okay, Neil.

As Bob said, many of us pray for you regularly.

[yogi (yogi)]

Hi Neil! Please don't let those *******s steal your future from you; they've already had enough of your past and they simply aren't worth the bother! Keep on going buddy cuz you're gonna make it!

Yogi

[boddah (boddah)]

hello neil:

your first posting was heartbreaking. i know what it's like to be suicidally depressed, and to feel all alone there.
you did the right thing coming here, even though sometimes the threads get confused by abstract arguments very insensitive to a person in need. usually, factnet turns out to be a place of understanding, when it counts. (talk to jeannie.)
i began treatment with antidepressants that made me feel worse, and in the end an anxiety prescription helped me very much also. i'm so glad you seem to have gotten out of the hole you were in when you first wrote, although i know the road out of there seems endless.
who knows, we might end up meeting at the end of that road.

i don't know you well... but you're right to try to stay around for your family, to look for other people to curl roots around. i have to remind myself every day how my husband would take my death. sometimes i feel like i don't care. but, if i just last a little longer, i see his face again. sometimes i resent it, wish i could just be strong and release myself. you don't have to love every minute of putting your roots out. even if you're cursing the roots as they go out, once you've started they grow on their own, even when you feel bad. roots means there's somewhere to turn besides yourself, or some abstract concept.

having read the above posts i do have some broad comments:

medication does not exist so that depressed people can become normal. depressed people are normal, depression is a common, naturally occurring illness that simply affects the human race-- whether we like it or not. it is definitely not a sign of spiritual deterioration just because it can't be seen, x-rayed like a broken bone. depressed people aren't people who think wrong because they make bad choices. they're people who have, for some reason, developed a legitimate illness which needs treatment.
the reasons for developing depression are innumerable. immediate loss, long-term from childhood, passed down genetically, long term from adolescence or adulthood, or all of the above...
there is not a single, clear item to be overcome before a depressed person can be declared "normal." this is not a question of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.
could you "get over" cancer by realizing that your cells are working against you? no. nor can you "get over" depression by realizing that you were abused, or have a problem processing dopamine.

there is a complex knot of factors that need untangling before the emotions even start to make sense. this is why therapy is necessary, in addition to medication if it's prescribed.
medication without therapy is likely to leave the person feeling physically stronger with no idea why, what happened, or whether they could slip into it again.
therapy without medication could turn out to be years of crying for three hours a week-- you might never even get past the emotion to examine its triggers.

eventually, depressed people may or may not go off their medications, but if they don't that does not make them weak, unable to throw away a crutch. it means their illness is chronic or very deep, and they want to be able to get around to those graduations and weddings, just like other normal people with other such illnesses.
it is not fair to try to frighten people with the threat of antidepressant side effects. there are new medicines with new side effects every day, for all kinds of purposes. that's the world we live in. prayer and st. john's wort are not going to cut through this kind of situation, that's why medical research exists. if a medicine keeps a person alive *right now*, why would you advise against it? there will definitely be side effects if the person doesn't take it.

finally,
neil, don't ever, ever feel guilty because you have depression. depression is the number one undiagnosed disease in this country, and know why? because it's normal to feel depression, like it's normal to get the flu. when the symptoms interfere with life, you seek help. some people's symptoms are harsher than others'.

you are not weak. you're daring to express yourself to others in hope of figuring out a reason to live, which means you're considering your situation from other angles-- so you're smart, too.
peace (at least as much as others have!) will come, it will. for me and for you. we just don't know it yet, and no one can say when. in the meantime, you are allowed to take good care of yourself!

[minutus (minutus)]

Hey, Neal, you're the reason I heard about FACTNet! Keep up the good fight and remember: the best revenge is a life well-lived. You are not alone.

Dave C

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Thanks for that post Boddah. You put it so well. And I love it when someone spells 'definitely' correctly. It gives me a little thrill inside. The cat in me is wearing a Chesire grin. Or is it Chess Shire?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

"Wise Boddah" is now your name! Or as Bruder/Marty so aptly defined us.. this rag/tag bunch of a community; wounded healers...

There is a magic of healing in a physical wound. If you don't believe me than shadow a nurse for awhile. I have seen wounds deep to the bone which never should have healed, but do! There is science behind the healing but also a little magic. It is the same for unseen wounds of the soul. Our ability to take a wound deep within and heal speaks of the incredible power that originated in the wound itself. So the less discerning eye may see a wounded individual as lacking but really and truly it is the wound where God's magic occurs. It is in our wounds where God's power surges. We just need unseen vision to realize it and tap into it and in turn, use that power to help others.

[doug (doug)]

Neal
At least you have a good starting point. You know what your depression is related to or set off by, GGWO.
With a little understanding and, perhaps, help from gifted people you could follow your symptoms to their cause and be cured. God help you, only he can.
Doug

[boddah (boddah)]

jeannie:
i always remember from high school french, and also i think from someone or other's sermon one time?
"blesser" is "to hurt, to wound." so to be blessed might not always make you feel so great... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Jeannie, What you posted above has so much flavor of the cross in it; life out of death. In losing our own life we gain His. He is drawn to our wounds. His strength is found in the midst of our weakness. It doesn't mean the weakness or wound itself is good; but that His goodness means to be enough and more for us in it.

[aurora (aurora)]

Wow. So many good posts on this thread..

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Bob,

Very good, and very Pauline. If we grow in Christ through all of this, then we win. While we need to speak out we cannot allow it to be from bitterness or for revenge. It must be in the Spirit of love and truth.

God bless,

ralph
1Cor 15:10

[sister_mary]

How is Neils situation today? I am a bit worried, because when I listened about 30 years ago the sermon from the tape, Carl Stevens said "anybody who rises agaist this body will not survive." He told in that sermon that many of his critisizers have turned mad or insane and driven themselves to suicide or become seriously ill, got cancer or have marriage problems with divorce, financial problems etc. as a curse from God because blashphemy agaist the Body of Christ. We know all these statements of CHS are pure crap. Can somebody of you folks find that sermon somewhere and put it on the net, so that it can be analysed totally and proven heresy?

We have assurance of Gods protection:

John 5: 24

[shat_happens]

SM

"so that it can be analysed totally and proven heresy?"

"anybody who rises agaist this body will not survive." He told in that sermon that many of his critisizers have turned mad or insane and driven themselves to suicide or become seriously ill, got cancer or have marriage problems with divorce, financial problems etc. as a curse from God because blashphemy agaist the Body of Christ.

just look at neil, heresy might be hard to prove.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Just more a$$ covering on Carls part.
It's easy to see the manipulation being presented in such a message.

"We are the chosen ones and if you question us you will die or worse!"

No one ever died from leaving GGWO Or from questioning Carl.
No one ever got cancer from challenging carl.
Carl lied through his teeth with a big grin.
He knew full well that he was using God's Word to control other people.That was his plan.

I'm just greatful to the Lord that He has opened the eyes that He has so far.
If more GGWO present congregants would just look closer some of them might realise the lies they where/are being fed.

Carl's messsages speak for themselves.
Manipulation,control and fear tactics are used quite frequently.
The true Word of God is something that will reveal them for who they are and what they are doing contrary to truth.

The truth sets us free while the twist that Carl invoked causes fear and bondage to a ministry and a man.

Not God's will at all.

</font>}

[sister_mary]

Rome 11: 10. Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I must confess that I am very serious when it is the matter attacking brothers or sisters and apologize, if I have hurt anybody with my writings or links. My shoulder from the left side two days ago became very ill and sore, I got temperature, blood pressure got high and there has risen somekind hump on my shoulder and I barely could turn my neck and the area of my heart was sore too. May be this is a sign from God to quit this talk and be more careful. I went to the shower, poured hot water over it and took inflammation medicine as a hot drink. Maybe God is unpleased with my chat lately and I must correct my thinking towards positive thinking and acts. I have been a Christian for 34 years and this is the first time I have gone astray with my attitudes and talk. And God never thanks that. But I do not live under condemnation but His love and believe I shall soon get well after forgiving everybody that has someway hurt me... Even thinking that way feels better. I wish you wonderful Christmas, my friends, out of GGWO and believers that are in there. I do not want a hunch on my back, I must now move on and get rid of the hump:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/h/hunch_back.asp

[dancer]

I am alive and doing ok. Soom good friends. Not fair weather nightmares. Its amazing how God puts real people in front of you to eventually beat the devil. It just takes a while.

Those who try to hurt you, just hurt themselves eventually.

[louise_connolly]

What if.......

Neil is Sister Mary?

He got us again http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[sister_mary]

What if.....

shat_happens is Schaller T...

He catched us again?

Matthew 11: 28-30 tells the only burden we need to carry is the light burden of Christ. My shoulder has become now last night better, some of you have prayed for that and I thank you very much!

Love: SM

[whatsup]

sister mary, you are such a freak

[sister_mary]

Dear whatsup. Sorry, if I have offended you with my chats and links... I did not mean to. I do not know you very well but have read for a long time these pages and understood that you all are going just the same process as I. Some of you are in and some out of this cult. But you see, my religious behaviour is the result of the manipulation I experienced in Bible Speaks. At normal life I act like nothing has ever happened but this thing is processing quietly in my mind and I is a blessing, that FactNet has let me to process this as a part of debriefing. I have never asked for psychological help in this matter, but tried to focus, what happened and why. It is not easy for me to recover and I believe this process is going on with many other disaffiliated ones. Do not blame others just pray God will show and guide you in all truth. We are just humans, are you too? Thanks to you all that you prayed for me, my shoulder is healing and the temperature has gone away, and my husband is talking to me (though he is still sad but now said "no" to that Pentecostal pastors wife (deputy of the pastor, who is on vacation because of burn out syndrome) who askes all times service...). So I believe I will next spring go back home...

Information about debriefing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debriefing

GOD LOVES FAMILIES

YOU ARE THE PART OF GODS FAMILY

LOVE ONE ANOTHER

[whatsup]

sister mary, there is no need to apologize to me...you have not offended me, I simply think you are a freak and I do not apologize for that either. Your posts are bizarre. I have not clicked on one of your links but I am sure they are bizarre also. Yes, the Bible Speaks was wrong in so many ways, but it is obvious you have deep rooted psychological issues that can not be blamed soley on the ministry (although I am sure they contributed)

[sister_mary]

Hypocrites talk in that manner... they never dare to do any kind of experiments of life because they think their skin will be burned! An incomplete personality does not dare anything, always hides from the pain of life and hypocrites do not want to touch with their finger when their brothers ( sisters suffer... You are made of wax or plastic, start living and dare to break you rolemask and throw it away! Learn emphaty from Jesus himself who also knew how to cry and laugh, even be drunk of wine...

[sister_mary]

Here is a story of someone maybe:

He rises up and has breakfast, listens to the news and has a small Bible study. Then he shaves, washes his teeth, puts on a new shirt and his suit and waxes his hair. He looks himself satisfied from the mirror. His wife comes and gives him a hug and a kiss. She never tells about her needs and never asks for money, what a treasure she is in her humble way of life. His children make noise and prepare themselves to school and days activities and say hello to daddy and they are gone...

He drives to work with his modern car and there comes wonderful music from the CD-player. He meets his colleagues, talks with them, smiles to the ladies politely and starts working hard to cope with the managers demands.

Lunch time comes and he goes to the restaurant with his colleagues chatting with them about business matters. Then he works again with passion.

At last the day is end and he drives home with his elegant car. On the way to parking hall he sees a beggar, but does not even notice this freak.

Then he goes home, where his wife waits with supper, soup and a nice dish and dessert and she pours him coffee ...

The man takes a small nap and then goes to leisure-time activities and meets his golf-club friends and they go golfing and talk about their lives. He suddenly remembers that he must go to help the chuch board in a decision, if they should hire a youth counsellor, and hurries there and votes against to hiring, it is a waste of money, he thinks. It is better to put that money on churches decoration...

They come late home and he remembers that he has not said even a sentence to his children, but only given them pocketmoney.

Then he sneeks to his winecupboard and pours himself a cognac drink and then moves toward the bedroom, where his wife is sleeping already. He dares not to wake her up an tell her how much he loves her and the family, he never has told that before... only once at the wedding.

He sees a dream, where everything went upside down:

On the morning his alarm clock did not work properly and he yelled to his wife that did not wake him. He did not get morning kiss or hug. The children were fighting and tossing their things and rebelling against fathers small pocketmoney and wanting to go to the disco too young. The wife had not wiped the table for a week but was only laying.

He clothes himself and does not find a proper shirt and yells to his lazy wife why she does nothing in the household. Chilren leave the house banging doors.

Outside the husband notices the cars wheel has emptied and he must change it and he gets late from work. His boss is angry and nags about tasks that are not ready. Hypocrite yells to the secretary to organize his files better. The secretary complains about the working habits of the hypocrite to the boss. Also she proves clients are moving to competing firm...

The day is rough and then comes the boss saying the hypocrite can gather his things and move to a lower place or even quit. Then colleagues do not no even notice your existence.

Man goes home and receives a letter from the bank that mortgage is cancelled and you must sell your property, because your wife has made a lot of depts in fashionable shops... using your creditcard.

Hypocrite man tries to find the lazy wife but she has run away with a lover and there is a letter on the talbe.

Then you learn that your kids have moved to a secret address. Oh my, you sit helpless, and have the wire on your hands and think about suicide... and see the hells flames before you...

Then calls you pastor from the church and tells you: "Do not anything harm to yourself, for Jesus will change evil happenings to good, if you believe. Come here!" You go to church and start a new career as feeding to poor...

[louise_connolly]

'tis fruitcake season'

[cordell]

and it gets dark real early in Finland this time of year...

[shat_happens]

well look at the date, it's from back in 04 if neil ain't dead yet, i don't think he's got the guts to actually do it this year. i mean there are just WAAAAY TOOO MANY threads to create to off himself like that now!

with suicide, they think of you for what, 2 or 3 days, then forget about ya, but with countless threads to be made, people are thinkin' about ya daily!

[dancer]

I just wanted cordell and whatsup to know I am sister_mary. I mean it has to be me right?

Now for my next trick I will start a blog and design like OTP's site.

Wear a cowboy hat and attend a PCA church.

Gosh is life really that boring.

Louise honey you belonged (past tense I might add) to one of the strangest cults there ever was. Its always fruitcake season. I hate the stuff.

More for peppermint and bourban.

oh I will ponder the idea of "guts" to do it. Thats right up there with "go ahead and do it" Beth Schaller June 2001.I love Christian women.

[cordell]

damn, did we forget that this was an "it's-all-about-neil" thread? shame on us.

[rocketman]

Again all, I'm sorry, but I haven't read all the posts so if I'm being redundant, it's all good...

Niel.. good posts from many people. There's a couple of things that I want to share briefly.

1. As far as influencing others in the ministry, simply forget it. Suicide - been done. Many of us, many of us, knew our good friend, David. He was there at the beginning in Woolwich, his family was highly and I mean highly involved in the staff at TBS Lenox... he put an end to his life in a wooded area, I believe, in Maine (my knowledge of this is sketchy, others know more).

It changed nothing. David is gone. That's all it accomplished.

2. LIFE IS GOOD. Period. Life is Good. No matter what happens to us, LIFE is Good. it's good for us, it's good for our families, it's good for our friends, it's good for our communities, it's just plain better than any other option. Period. You are good. I've seen that in your posts and your actions.

And there's a lot of info out there about depression and how to work it out, how to deal with it. The one thing that I know is STAY CONNECTED. Be around others, seek out your friends, don't hole up in the house. Get out and walk with your wife, your kids, Be around for others - make calls, go places with people you love and enjoy.

Lastly... I saw a story of a man on TV. He was a Christian and I guess it was the 700 Club or some other outlet. He went to the top of a tower on a suspension bridge because he couldn't find work and blah blah blah felt like things would be better for others if he just plain jumped. So he did.

He took a running leap off the tower and as his last foot left the tower common sense kicked in and he realized "This is the stupidest thing I've ever done!"

That thought has always stayed with me, Neil. That one thought - when the blinders were lifted and the REALITY of the situation was evident - has always stayed with me. He saw his folly. Obviously he didn't die, although I'm sure he spent months in a hospital. And never turned back since.

Life truly IS good.

All the best, J

[rocketman]

just perused the thread... oh brother.. 2004??

ah well... it is christmas season and it sounded right, huh? Oh.. and btw I blew by all the cordell/doug discussion, looking for the stuff about Niel. How's he doing Now? He obviously made it through 2005 etc. So Niel- how Have you dealt, bro? How are you This Christmas?

All the best..

PS.. I couldn't read SisMary's stuff either.. it went bizarre Waaaay to quick :P

[inhisgrace]

I believe the church in Tacoma is manipulative as well. They hold on to people by mentioning them from the pulpit as being ''faithful friends''. It holds people there because of guilt even though they feel the spirit of God revieling the wrongs that go on there. There are a lot of wrongs, but it's so hidden from the leadership they are duped to thinking it's not there. Even when people choose to break free before GOD--the one's remaining are left to believe they are sinning by leaving in abandonement. They all should get in a God fearing church &amp; get re-taught!

[whatsup]

Rocketman, I enjoy reading your posts, and I could not agree with you more about sister mary's posts.
As for Neil...yes, he did make it through 2005, although he did commit suicide once this year and even created a thread about it..."Neil Carrick found dead" was the title, I believe. But not to worry...he was miraculously resurrected and is still with us today in all his drama, posting still....

[cordell]

you'd have been better off reading the dialogue btw dougie and I than fretting over neil, he is his own favorite star and is even now probably planning on an evening being naked with the king, according to our friends at Liquid Waves O' Stevens.

[cordell]

and we are bracing ourselves for yet another foray into self-importance for the holidays-- here's a little advice! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-vgQSqNtA)

[dancer]

Actually Cordell get off my thread! *PING* You always had such a big heart. I am doing pretty good. New Job, New Home sorta, and something of a new lease on life.

Christmas is hard for people like me. But I sure think people like Cordell make it harder.

Oh by the way think any news stories will come out soon. What's todays date?

Wonder if anything will happen interesting in the next month with maybe a follow up story from something this year.

Hey Jim get off my thread!

LOL

[cordell]

cue the theme from 'M*A*S*H'

[dancer]

Oh Jim go eat some cake. BTW after this week I might have a reason between press and court to revise a little story you turned down.Heck maybe even by morning. I am not sure on the timing but soon.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Personally I like the song ,
"If we are the body"
even though I'm a fan of M*A*S*H*.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

</font>}

[johncollins]

I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it5XLFMl9Cc may be my favorite version of the MASH theme.

But you have to give these guys credit, just for the name of their band! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-g0aBYVCgE

[minutus]

With all the flags in the background I thought it was the GGWO International Missions March.

[isabella]

Thank you again, John Collins!

[sister_mary]

About those flags: when churches use USA flag in their service, they at the same time honor the state that is given by God to be their home and safeplace.

We had in Finland at 6.12.2006 independence day and a II World War veteran made a suicide in front of celebrators eyes by runnning under an army paradetank in Jyvaskyla town. Maybe this veteran was tired in his life or he made his final fight against the Parliament, that voted that EU constitution Law will be official in Finland instead of our own and we will be slaves of Brussels, I do not know and I cried when I saw this event by You Tube. But here is the film taken of the celebration parade that turned to be a suicide parade in the eyes of a veteran:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsjOLvYcuTc

[sister_mary]

The poor veteran was MASHED under the tank... And he had said at his last words: "We'll see at the stables of the tanner!" We had as our president Vaino Tanner (lived 1981-1966)and he was called "the hard bone".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4in%C3%B6_Tanner

I wonder, why people go to so deep depression that the only resolving of problems or grief is to take life away by own hands...

Apostle Paul said in Acts 16: 28. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

So dancer, we all are here for you, listening to you, reading your messages, sometimes even nagging to you and also praying for you to get healed from your selfpity and hurt and to see in what a wonderful world we live in, if we only open our eyes and mind to all the grace and love and kindness God has given to us. You just need to go to a springfield and see the flowers blossoming and hear the birds singing, and you see in your eyes your kids growing and playing football outside and your most little one taking first steps and a butterfly will gently sit on the hand and wave its wings and the sun is shining warmly, and you see what a treasure you've got: life.

[guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner]

cue the crickets

[sister_mary]

DANCER! I woke up about 15 minutes ago because I had a dream that you were having a small jar of pills on your table (they had some red color in them). God spoke about you and what you are thinking now. Remember, God sees in the bottom of your problem and you are valuable to Him. Now, if there is any friend there of dancer, please pray for him or go and call him immediately and if his phone does not answer, go and visit him and have a serious talk about Gods love and help him listening and praying with him.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

[cordell]

go back to sleep sister mary...neil's at the skittles (http://www.skittles.com/index.jsp) again or stumblin' around nekkid with the king...

[priceless]

Suicide is what you do when you have tried your best to do the right thing. You kill your own dreams and try to die completely to Christ and pray that you get out of the pit some day - try to keep your eyes focused on heaven. Realized that you have probably made others mad. It's a no win situation - they want your time and interest but tell you to follow Christ. So you do the right thing knowing that Christ has to be first so they hate you because you are not putting them first yet in your mind you know that the dream you killed couldn't come to life (really) until you lay it down at the foot of the cross.

Life in the pit. And they take their ministry away so you fill even more alone - in the pit.

Artist: Superchick
Album: Beauty From Pain
Track: Suddenly

She feels lost in her own life
Treading water just to keep from slipping under
And she wonders if she's where she's supposed to be
Tired of trying to do it right
Her dreams are just too far away to see how steps she's making
Might be taking her to who she'll be

Chorus:
And suddenly it isn't what it used to be
And after all this time it worked out just fine
And suddenly I am where I'm supposed to be
And after all the tears I was supposed to be here


She feels locked in her own life
Scared of what she might lose if she moves away from who she was
And she's afraid of being free
There's a way she knows is right
But she can't feel the things she knows
And so each step she's taking is a step of faith toward who she'll be

Chorus

And here where the night is darkest black
She feels the fear and the light is farthest back
And through her tears she can't see the dawn is coming
Skies will clear and the light will find her where she's always been.

Chorus

-------------------

But does suddenly ever come?

[priceless]

Artist: Superchick
Album: Beauty From Pain
Track: Beauty From Pain

The lights go out all around me
One last candle to keep out the night
And then the darkness surrounds me
I know I'm alive
But I feel like I've died

And all that's left is to accept that it's over
My dreams ran like sand through the fists that I made
I try to keep warm but I just grow colder
I feel like I'm slipping away

After all this has passed
I still will remain
After I've cried my last
There'll be beauty from pain
Though it won't be today
Someday I'll hope again
And there'll be beauty from pain
You will bring beauty from my pain

My whole world is the pain inside me
The best I can do is just get through the day
When life before is only a memory
I wonder why God let me walk through this place

And though I can't understand why this happened
I know that I will when I look back someday
And see how You've brought beauty from ashes
And made me as gold purified through these flames

Here and I am at the end of me (at the end of me)
Trying to hold to what I can't see
I forgot how to hope
This night's been so long
I cling to your promise there will be a dawn

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God, I can't hang on any longer.