GGWO Main Board Thread 9

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

All postings here.

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

Jack Brown - who are you? Are you the pastor or elder in charge of this board. What role do you play in this organization. Are you an "inny" or an "outty"

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

his belly button has nothing to do with it

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

There are no moderators on this board. We are just trying to the lessen confusion with all these threads.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Yeah Jack. Are you the servant or the king?

LOL

I offered to move it to our own home.

I would love to think this would work, but its not going to. There are to many maniacs here amoung us now.

The Factnet group actually did us a favor. Eventually we are going to be so big and hard to deal with people will be begging for a moderator.

Thanks for trying Jack, but for what its worth, come know on my email when you figure out that this will keep happening.

Neil

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

I hope time4achange can find this thread. But I cant believe that Sam said how dare he touch that girl!

Ahh the last I knew it takes two to tango!

No time to be pointing fingers. There is a baby on the way! Hello a new life. Everyone makes mistakes and once again where is the love and support. The children always seem to get hurt in this ministry while the adults battle on.

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

4.139.12.102.. where are you?

Can you see that many of us are here to lend support? Let's help each other, ok? How long have you been in GG and are you still attending now?

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sha, I also hope he finds thread 9, he must be feeling so lost with no where to turn right now. I know firsthand that no child is a mistake and we ALL have a past, but it time for everyone involved in that couple's life to think about what is best for that baby and them!

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

You are right, I apologize no child is a mistake.

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sha...I was agreeing with you! I have loved everything you have posted. Your love for God shines through. I was very moved by what you shared about going back to campus in Lenox. I have not returned to visit there though my family is just an hour away.

God has done a great healing in you!

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Just to keep building on the effort of Jack here.

What are all these terrible bruises about. Keri asked me to ask who ever said something to describe what they saw so the whole world would know.

Keep up the fight Jack.


Neil

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

I know you were. Thanks, thats why I was apologizing. I felt that what I typed was worded
wrong. It has been a long jorney for me, but God has and continues to do an amazing work on me. I have remained an open vessel.

My husband was a great support and I could have not gone back without his love and support. He comes from a Pentecostal family, so we have alot in common.

Sha

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

To 65.96.153.178

Pastor - No

Elder - No

In charge of the board - No

Just trying to help

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

I honestly think until we have a moderated board you will have a freak show on your hands.

This is crazy.

Every time you tell somebody in another thread to come here it raises the thread in the list.

If somebody post after you it just keeps building.

So their are few choices.

You are playing moderator by tag. Thats a nightmare.

I keep posting here hoping that the number stays up on 9

Neil

[Anonymous (24.60.78.215)]

It is obvious there are people who are misrepresenting themselves--trying to make dissenters appear vicious and obsessed with ridiculous and unbiblical doctrines. Also, the proliferation of absurd thread themes is an effort to bring in confusion. I would urge everyone to ignore all the alternate threads and postings that don't ring true.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Still posting here.

But we need to move to a moderated board.

This is to much.

Its not about truth its about creating chaos.

Neil

(see another post in 9)

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Neil:

Servant...most of us know who the King is...

We can't stop the maniacs; we never could. But they couldn't stop us either as long it's a free forum. Honestly, they have a right to be here as much as any of us.

I think FACTNet has been great.

I think a moderator would be the worst thing to ever happen to this board.

I can't understand your last line about the e-mail.

Jack

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Well Sha,

God has used your "open-vesselness" to help many on this board. It is amazing how many stories keep coming. It hurts my heart to see so many. Everyone seems to be in a different stage of understanding and grief. I do not believe it is God's desire to attack each other. But to discuss the "why's" of it all and to help each other heal and move on in Him.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

My key slipped.

When this board ends up looking worse than the scientology board email me, and I will be glad to start a board that is a lot easier on the eyes and to follow, and moderated so that people don't follow 100 threads. I figure by next week we could have threads named after doctrines.

Keep up the good fight Jack.

Neil

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

But Neil, that's how you set this thing up yesterday. You established subject folders and changed the format. That's when the confusion began that people are talking about.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Anon 64.12 You are so right. Everyone is in different stages. Its so hard to get through some of the stages and takes such an extreme amount of time. You and I and any others that hopefully will join us in discusing and not attacking would be great. Healing is my motivation and helping others, as I can tell is yours. Lets stay positive and keep praying for one another.

Sha

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

neil would love nothing better than to have himself in charge of a board...let's keep it here...

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Neil, so tell us about the mediation process. What is the group and when do they start?

Jack

[Anonymous (172.137.137.86)]

My answer to the Lutz situation - no answer, nor will I engage in your gossip and trying to get any stories on here that you can.

I love the Lutz's dearly - not going to say another word on the issue.

Thank God I don't go to the same church you people do - what love.

CK

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

I added #7, then two days later I added #8 when it got close to 488 posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some were 2 pages long themselves.

I added some simple topics like MBCS, GGCA, and a couple of others. Not the wacked ones that came into play. But thats an unmoderated board like everybody wants. Please don't say you want one thing and then when you get it complain.

In this case we need to keep smaller threads for readers. So the Factnet group did us a favor by adding the method for us to do that. But then people will add multiple threads that go on, an on, off topic, to the point we are discussing the American Revolution and its impact on Maine and eventually Carl Stevens childhood.

Want it both ways. No moderation (Moderation is a good term in my book) and free.

FactNet decided to give us the possibility of adding more because of the bandwidth we pull when somebody loads a single 500 post thread! Hello???


It will just get worse and worse.

I know how boards go. Go look at some of the larger ones. Think it can't get worse.

Just wait awhile.

I offered.

Neil Carrick

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

68.33.184.79

I love nothing more than for Jack to be the moderator. I have no time for this.

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

This board is the first time in the histroy of TBS/GGWO that anyone of us have a chance to communicate with each other. I am grieved for the many that left and never had any kind of support. They were left with confusion and wounds and betrayals by the people that they loved. It is time to reach out.. to present members and our past members and make sure this kind of abuse is not repeated.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Gosh Anon 64.12 we are on the same page! You took the words out of my mouth!

Sha

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Anon 64. @ 8:35-
YES YES YES...it IS the first time in history! It is amazing. so if we have to wade through some odd posts it's worth it just to get communication flowing ...
I'm sure there are people reading all this who have experiences and perspective to offer- please post! We can get through the confusing format I think (at least until one of the more computer savvy posters figure out the best way to run it)...Leonards-could you give input on my last post's subject-(on thread 8)

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

Hows it going?

in this mediation process?

I will talk about in detail later on a new board. Maybe I will make you the sole moderator. I want no more claims of being a censor or divider.

Anyway read below

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

CK,

It is not gossip. The Lutz's have given many years to this ministry. They are not with us anymore. Do not label the truth as gossip. It is this kind of thinking that allows the deceitful leaders to continue while the men with integrity leave. The truth should be everyone's concern. The fact that Pastor Lutz is NOT taking the presidency should speak volumes to you. Instead you refuse to think and stick a label on it and call it gossip. It is only a matter of time before the GG leaders will be trashing Pastor Lutz's good name. And that will not be gossip either, that will be slander.

[Chris Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Neil,

You thought the Threads were too long and wanted to shorten them. Then you added these other subject folders and you had it set up so others could add folders. Could you please get rid of the subject folders and we'll all stay on one Thread. I know you want to say it won't work but it did before you changed things. We could all read everything and most importantly if someone needed help everyone could see that and they won't be stuck in some folder somewhere.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Jessica-I read your post, it was great did you get to read what I wrote.

I dont mind getting thru all the stuff to get the chance to talk to everyone. This would never have been able to happen in the past. For once in almost 15 years I can talk with others and not feel so alone about my experience and the hurts that I have felt.

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Neil,

I think Jack was asking about the mediators being hired by GGWO. Have they done that? Who are they and when are starting.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sha and Jessica, There is a great book alot of us have read called "Twisted Scriptures." It really teaches us to give ourselves alot of grace as we process this experience.

Lee Leonard also mentioned one by Ken Blue..

From everything I have read, it is having loving support, unconditional love and non-judgemental friends that makes a huge difference.

[Neil (24.172.44.98)]

Here is my post:

Jack I understand your concern with what I did. I was a little over zeolous.

My information on the mediation is on another forum.

Sorry folks but I am getting off this one. My wife has been begging me, and I think this is the best I can do to stay in the middle and not drag my family into it over and over again.

Jack can be the moderator if he wants but no verbal attacks for the sake of verble attacks on my family.

The forum is at http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

Its public, its not moderated, and it thins itself based upon the number of days.

Its a lot better site, and yes I can get rid of the garbage and leave the controversal.

Take Care and Good Bye.

My post has information on the group and I will go put up their web page and everything.

I will stick around and watch the new board to see if anybody wants to ask me more details.

God Bless You All!

Neil Carrick

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Chris,
That is exactly what happened! Neil, you changed the whole format on Saturday and created about ten different folders, not counting the 7 or 8 regular threads. Since then it has been confusing and hard to follow. I know you meant well, but everyone prefers one board like we had, all posting on one updated thread. Now I don't even know if the folders can be removed. Most of us have no idea how to do that. Worst of all, people keep adding bizarre subject topics!!

SJ

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Amen and Amen to you again-Anon 64.12. And if those friends (and family) are not loving and supportive and non-judgemental they are not the friends for you.

I will have to look up that book-for the most part I went straight to the scriptures. (Well once I parted with the precious doctrinal booklets that I was taught to treasure.) My Aunt suggested to go straight to the Word during that difficult time, but I am ready for some other reading. Thanks.

Sha

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

No I didn't change the format

When I added 8 Factnet decided to change the format.

I only added some of the groups. The huge jump was by others.

BTW those who wanted no moderation are getting what they wanted.

I am not to blame for the fact that it kept growing and nobody wanted it moderated or just managed well.

Neil

All my answers now on are at:

http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

So is everyone going to this new sight that Neil mentioned. I don't want to loose touch with some here, so if everyone is switching I guess I should?

Sha

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

So now our choice is stay in this mess or go to a whole new forum.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

I will promise to do what I can to make it sensible for everyone. I will even put up markers for everybody.

Neil Carrick
http://www.healthychurch.org/

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

For what it is worth, I have emailed FactNet and asked if we could take all of the postings from the "newer" boards and put them into an archive. Then take down those newer boards and leave it the way it was. When I hear back I'll let you know. I think it is good to have a history of posts instead of thinning out over time. Just my opinion.

[Chris Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Lets see if we can get in touch with Factnet and have them fix things here. The problem with moving is people won't be able to go back and look over what has gone on. This is the site listed in the paper for people to find it, and I think this discussion belongs on this site. I don't want anyone controlling what can or cannot be put on this board, which a moderator could do.

I think someone would like to have us move, but I would prefer to stay here.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Talkin Truth:

On the new board they are thinned out as in they become an archieve that is searchable.

http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

Factnet will help but don't expect quick answers for days. Like often 3-4 days.

Thats why I say move it. If we need to Jack or I can sum things together.

http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

I agree with staying here, especially since this is the site that people know about. If it takes 3-4 days for an answer - I'm game for waiting it out.

[Chris Brown (141.157.75.224)]

talkintruth

Sounds good to me. I'll wait it out too.

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

The new board would have different subjects and all the conversations would be scattered as they are now.
Neil, I think it was a little premature for you to post a new folder called "PLEASE READ THIS" telling people we have moved, when everyone has not agreed to that

SJ

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

Here folks I am going to make it easier on everybody.

I think that Chris has some good points the freedom part.

Keri and I have been beaten up pretty bad, we spent a lot of time and effort on trying to help some folks.

If you want to stay here and be part of this I understand.

I am moving onto a place where its not always about who can cuss the most, dump the most, and then others say well I can decern good from bad.

No thanks,

I hope some of you will join us, especially if you really are interested in healing and not just throwing venom.

I know thats not Jacks point, or the byrnes, or the leornards, they are just staying in a place that enables many people to do just that.

In His Peace,

Neil Carrick

I will ask that those I mentioned and Gail, and Pam, and you secret folks come join us.

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

SJ,

I am not forcing anybody to go to it. This is a free board remember

I am only offering to get it going and manage it as some of us who have been hurt the most would like.

Sorry, but I am not a target for anybody. My wife certainly doesn't deserve to be one.

http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

If you want to be about healing and not venom

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

I will try to wait this out. Could some others that have been on let us know what they are going to do.
Sha

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Neil,
People will do the same things on the new board that they are doing here....in a public forum you can't stop people from posting whatever they want

SJ

[D.A. (68.82.183.197)]

**
**

D.A (68.82.183.197) Monday, May 24, 2004 - 07:48 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous (4.139.12.20)
I have pictures of my family, sisters , mother in law, my late father in law on a shelf that is the focal point of my living room. Guess what I even have pretty blue candles on that shelf. Would you say I have built an alter unto my relatives. Give me a break it is called decorating.

I can not believe arguments have gotten so petty as to pick a part what pictures someone has in their home. I have pictures of my pastor and his family on my fridge, as well as pictures of other body members children. we have a picture of our Christian school principal and his son hanging in our hall. Their is nothing weird or sick about this. we are friends with these people and they have become our extended family.
Do you not have pictures of your friends?

You are grasping for something new to complain about which is pretty much the normal here for all who want to attack Greater Grace.

D.A

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

I am staying right here. I looked at the site, it is not any improvement over this one.

Also, I do not see the name of the mediators, there is nothing on the table with the leaders of GGWO.

We would like the name of this group. We have lived with secrets and lies for too long. We would like openness, honesty and transparency.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

I quickly went to freechurchusa, there is alot of stuff you have to enter to even begin. I'm not going to do that. I will stay here and hopefully some others will to. I trust God to bring us together whatever the source.

Sha

[Chris Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Neil,

That's not very nice of you to suggest that people who stay on this board are encouraging people to 'throw venom'. We want to stay in a place where we are free to communicate.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

DA, Did you read any of the postings following that one? 4.139.12.102 shared with us she came out of an abusive situation and was now dealing with alot of anger. Let it go, give her some grace.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

We are on the same page again 64.12. We should talk more! Did we graduate from SCS together? Or maybe we were friends. Its just so funny that you do or say the same things I am thinking. Sisters in Christ?

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sha, do you have an alias email address.. I will write.. I have kids in school and I am keeping anonymous until the end of school...

[John Krainis (207.5.239.219)]

I like staying put also. The effort to consolidate to this thread has been pretty successful. And there's much more graciousness than venom.

Thanks, Jack and others.

[bob (66.30.49.45)]

goodness gracious! It's not rocket science! we are all perfectly able to function in this truly free space- let's just have the simple sequential numbered thread and keep it going with substance not message board logistics!
It's easy to scroll right by someone who's obviously out to lunch and just keep going on to the next relevant post...

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

Neil,
In your heart of hearts, you have to know that not all (or even the majority) of the posts on this site are out to attack others. There has been a lot of reaching out. Sure people vent sometimes, but most are able to reel it in. I think that the leadership at GGWO would love to see this board split up. They would love to see division here because there is some truth being spoken. Neil, just like you invite others to go to another site for healing, I would invite you to ask God for real and total truth to be revealed - whatever that truth may be. I also ask you, can the leaders at GGWO ever ask for that truth?

I received an email from someone earlier about pastors meeting for hours at "homebase" today. Supposedly they are trying to solve problems in the right setting. You have offered to be a go between for me and others. Why should you need to be a go between? Why can't the leaders just answer my questions without a go between -- or the questions of others.

I was telling another poster who emailed me that my youngest child will sometimes say to me, "Mommy, I'm just gonna hang out with Jesus for a while." Why do we lose that simplicity of children? Why must it all be so formal and organized? Why can't the leaders at GGWO just come before the people of the church and the parents of the school and say "Hey folks...it is time we all hang out with Jesus for a while. It is time we all lay this down before him for truth."

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

It seems to me that a few of you want to control this whole thing and I don't agree. Why can't you keep your own discussion going and let other's do as they please. We all have our individual invested interest in this-I say leave it alone. I don't see the confusion except in your own minds. If you want to limit discussions to a limited group of topics - fine. Then ask people to stay within those topics. Make the topics pertinent and meaningful. If people want to have trivial, personal discussions as it seems a click of you do, then do it on your own E-mails or instant messaging - that would be less confusing.

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Chris,

When I heard somebody went after you I got on the phone and called not 1 but about 6 People and I would have driven across the country to be with you.

It seems when somebody jumps on the good guys its ok. we just ignore it.

This fit well with your understanding of "faith"

I am hurt that the ones who are suppose to be so concerned about those who have gone through some serious troubles in their walk at GGWO are walking targets and not even spoken up for by those who are suppose to be on the same side.

I know your heart but I my wife and I would like to see this come to an end that doesn't make us live through more pain.

Yes you can walk through all these nightmares and stone throwing but I be more interested in lifting up the name of Jesus.

Neil

http://www.freechurchusa.org/forum/

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

Anon 64.12.116.66 (9:54P.M)

I'll be happy to show her some grace. I myself came out of a very abusive situation to where I was practically afraid to talk to anyone at all, guess what healed me, guess what God used to stop making me feeling so worthless, surpise Greater Grace Church.

My point I know all about abuse, and being hurt, I do not look to pick every little thing a part as if that would be theraputic to me or helpful to anyone else.

As for reading the posts after that, I read what ever was posted that I could find, It seems every time I get on here I am told to go somewhere else. What I see most of the time is reposts of negative threads against GGWO but nothing in favor is reposted .

D.A

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

To Anon 64.12 I totally respect your reason to stay anon., your children are the best reason!! Keep protecting them, you are so smart too!

My husband took computer classes at Johns Hopkins. I will see if he can set me up an alias
email. I would love to talk.

But until then I will stay here.

Sha

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

On another note what happened to Sam Spade, we were talking earlier today.

Sha

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Neil,
It is nothing personal against you, people just do not want to go to a different board.
No one wants to see you or your wife hurt or go through any more pain. I don't see what that issue has to do with the issue of which forum we post on...I don't see the connection at all.
We all appreciate all you have done to help people who are hurt.

SJ

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

Sha

It has been established that quite a number of people have that 64.12 address . You may not always be speaking to the same person.

D.A

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Well said Talkintruth... out of the mouths of babes..

DA, I am sorry that you too also experienced abuse in your life. I have found those that have gone through their own dark times have more compassion for others. Please show compassion towards 4.139.12.102.. everyone heals at their own speed. The God I know, looks beyond the words and sees the heart. Hurt people react in anger and if we are the Christ's representatives on the earth, we can reach out beyond their words and see them as God sees them. We can allow God to use us to extend a hand to the hurting, as He would. Jesus was always extending His hand to the wounded. He never stood in judgement and demanded healing, he brought the healing with His love. You may find this forum evil, but really many wounded have found a hand extended.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

SJ,

Because people just keep making up lies on this board.

Thats it.

Neil

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

SJ,

What I really should have said is people make up lies and then nobody challanges them, and those who are hurt are burned a little more.

Its ok.

I am out of this game. Let the pros handle it.

Seems like everybody else knows what to do.

Neil Carrick

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

The tales keep getting taller on down the line

D.A

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Neil,
What would prevent those same people from making up lies on the new board? And I do think people challenge those lies here

SJ

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

I agree SJ, this board, one thread works the best. Everyone can speak.. the good the bad and the ugly. We can debate, have differing views, comfort and support. But most importantly we have a voice!

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Yes D.A. I understand that others could have that address but I am pretty sure the person I have been talking to is seeing my messages and its ok if others join in. I don't want to be exclusive.
We are all in this together in one way or another.

Sha

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Goodbye folks.

I think Keri and I should look at another avenue for ending the pain we have been through.

We thought that some people would be supportive of us here. In the end we were the enemies somehow.

I want thank some people:

Pam P you did a great job keeping me focused on what is important.

KS Thanks for sharing your thoughts and just speaking to me, it did a lot of good.

WWR Thanks for staying in touch and being a friend.

PM Thanks for trying. I know you will get it done

JB, Thanks for having the spirit to stick with it, and accept repentance from SS as a friend it meant a lot to me.

J & L L, I wish you much hope and a new day, you deserve one. I wish I culd promise you it in the manner I so desire.

JB & SB, Please keep the faith, try to do what you can to test all things but hold fast to that which is good.

I go home my soul injured a little.

Neil Carrick

PS Thanks to Pastor R. He has always meant well. He just shuffles his feet to fast sometimes trying to be a good man.

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

Keep the faith Neil, it will work out in the end, it just takes time. Things don't change overnight or with just a message board. This is a venue for talking and sharing. If it is not doing that for you than you should move to what works for you.

I will pray as I have for those in the process, whether in or out of the ministry.

The Lord is our common "thread"!

Sha

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

Sha,

didn't mean to imply you didn't know who you were talking to, just thought you might want to include the time of their post when you repond to them. Someone else with the # may think you are addressing them. Ive had people from that address come against me, and stand with me, it got very confusing at first.

D.A

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

D.A. Oh, ok I understand. This is still kind of new to me. Thanks for the tip. Using this site has definetly been a learning experience.

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Wow Sha! I love that thought.. our "common thread" is Christ. Let's continue our common thread right here, on thread 9 and then 10 and so on.

God Bless my brothers and sisters..

4.139.12.102.. I am praying for you, you got alot of anger out today, I hope you did not have a rough night and I hope you will be back with us.

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

I am with you 64.12 11:28pm. I have decided I am in and commited for the long haul! How ever many "threads" it takes.

Sha

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Neil:

It bothers me much that you take this board for more than it is. It has been many different things to many people but at the end of the day, how it's run doesn't really matter too much, does it? It's just another mouthpiece...but a needed one, a grand one to some. And I think that's perfectly allright.

This has become a place of openness, anger, bitterness, arguing, viciousness but also a place of release, sharing, encouragement, and acceptance too. But it is only a board. It is neither angel nor demon, sinner nor savior. Those are things we look for in a Church. Had GGWO been that, this board wouldn't have made it off the runway.

Neil, don't look for something from the board for yourself or your work that it can't give. If the threads get out of control, then so be it. Who really cares? Let it be what it is while it's here.

You have a wonderful heart, Neil. Don't let something like this board hurt you. It's only a board. Neither you nor I are the ones dealing with GGWO through the board. Judgement begins at the house of God by His own hand, not yours or mine.

I think you should be the husband, father and pastor God has called you to be. I think you are probably good at all three. I think you should visit the board as a friend and encourager without carrying the burden that Jesus says is His. He tells us that...He will do it.

Stay in touch,

Jack

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

Read this very closely...it has a familiar ring

"For the wisdom of this world has all the contrariety to salvation-wisdom, that the flesh has to the spirit, earth to heaven, or damnation to salvation. It is a wisdom, whose spirit and breath keep all the evil that is in fallen man alive, and which in its highest excellence has only the full grown nature of that carnal mind, which is enmity against God. It is a wisdom that is sensual, and devilish, that hinders man from knowing, and dying all those deaths, without which there can be no new life. It is a wisdom that turns all salvation-truths into empty, learned tales, that instead of helping the sinner to confess his sins, and feel the misery that is hid under them, helps him to an art of hiding, nay of defending them. For that which the lusts and passions do contrary to the wisdom from above, is proved to be right reason by this wisdom from below, whose greatest skill is shown, in keeping all the powers and passions of the natural man in peace and prosperity; and so the poor blinded sinner lives and dies in a total ignorance of all that light, blessing, and salvation, which could only be had by a broken and contrite heart.

For with respect to conscience, this is the chief office of worldly wisdom; it is to keep all things quiet in the old man, that whether busied in things spiritual, or temporal, he may keep up the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, without any disturbance from religious phantoms, and dreams of mystic idiots, who for want of sober sense and sound learning, think that Christ really meant what he said in these words, 'Except a man be born again of the Spirit, or from above, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' For this wisdom, come to its highest perfection, is a classic moral painter, which though it cannot alter the nature, yet can change the colors of everything; it can give to the most heavenly virtue such an outward form and color, as will force the stoutest of aged and learned men to run away from it; and to a vice of the greatest deformity it can pencil such charming features, as will make every child of this world, wish to live and die with it.

Its next perfection is that of a flattering orator, who has praise and dispraise at his own free disposal; for as they are all of his own making, so he can dispose them on whom, and on what he will; not only as outward interesting occasions call for them, but also as the inward necessities, the ups and downs of his own poor self want them. For self, however willing to be always strong, has its weak hours, and would be ever tottering, unless this elbow-orator kept him every day (though perhaps not every night) free from the disturbing whispers of a seed of God in his soul. Now join (if you please) learning and religion to act in fellowship with this worldly wisdom, and make their best of it, and then you will have a depravity of craft and subtlety as high as flesh and blood can carry it, which will bring forth a glittering Pharisee, with a hardness of heart, greater than that of the sinner publican."

William Law

"An Humble, Earnest and Affectionate Address to the Clergy" 1761

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

I decided based upon what happened tonight that Keri and I should seperate.

It grieves my heart but I don't think it is fair to drag Keri through my feelings about all of this, day after day.

I am getting attacked by people who are saying I am wrong to try and reconcile, and then I am getting attacked by people who say I am a fool for trying.

Thats it for me.

Neil

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

No! That's not the answer to ANYTHING. Please don't do that Neil.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Already done. I think its only fair. She knows my heart and she has seen what this has done to talk to friends on the phone and then get here and people say things that hurt people and people could care less.

I am going to sleep on my office sofa.

Have a great night.

Neil

[Jack Brown (141.157.75.224)]

I'll e-mail you in the morning...we'll talk then. You have to put what people say out of your mind, Neil. None of that should affect your marriage. Promise me you'll do nothing until we can talk about this. My God, man...don't talk like this.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

This is a great place to communicate. Let's stick it out here.

somebonus@yahoo.com

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

Please keep Neil and Keri in prayer today.
Someone said earlier that this message board is like spiritual warfare. How easily we are bruised again!

We must do what we can, both on the board and in private emails, to create safe places for people.

I have found through personal experience that the full course of healing takes time. Jesus can heal an injury in a second, but we can still be vulnerable in our emotions and our memories. It's hard to forget past wrongs!

There is a great emphasis in GGWO on ministry above all things, which may not allow time for real healing and reconciliation.

Two examples. Marriages that are bruised (for whatever reason) take time to heal. Ministry of any kind should take a back seat, unless both parties can participate in full confidence. It is more important to minister to one's spouse than to minister to the entire world. Jesus tells us if we can be trusted to be faithful in the little we can be trusted with the much. Similarly, "in as much as we have done it unto the least, we have done it unto Jesus." For a second example, when relationships are bruised or damaged by a church, ministry should be suspended or diminished so the important work of listening, hearing, identifying, empathizing, praying, forgiving, talking, healing, reconciling, and loving can be conducted. That is why I believe the work of healing for GGWO is much larger than many imagine. In a like manner, the Catholic Church continually under-estimated the depth of the anger and hurt experienced by people who had been abused.
Jack

[Dave (4.156.90.186)]

I live in Massachusetts, and I have followed the teachings of Pastor Carl Stevens,
in one way or another,
since 1975.

In early 1975, I had just been laid off from my job as an electronic technician,
and I was to remain out of work until December.

Thus I had a lot of time to listen to the messages of Pastor Carl Stevens,
on Telephone Time.

Before “The Grace Hour” came into being,
Pastor Carl Stevens hour radio program,
from 10:00 to 11:00,
was called Telephone Time.

In 1975 Pastor Carl Stevens was the head of “The Bible Speaks Bible College”
in South Berwick Maine,
but he was making in roads into Massachusetts.

In early 1975,
Pastor Stevens was having Friday night Bible Studies,
in a large room of a mansion in Southboro, Massachusetts.

This mansion also seemed to be his Massachusetts headquarters at this time.

In 1975,
I was present at services held by Pastor Stevens at 6 different locations.

One service was held at a church in Quincy, Massachusetts.
One service was held at Tremont Temple in downtown Boston.
One service was held at a large auditorium in Copley square, Boston.
I was present at many Friday services at the mansion in Southboro, Massachusetts.

In 1975, I had a short meeting with Pastor Carl Stevens
at the mansion in Southboro, Massachusetts.

At the meeting he invited me to spend some time at “The Bible Speaks” Bible College
in South Berwick, Maine.

I took advantage of his offer,
and spent one to two weeks visiting the Bible College,
in South Berwick, Maine
as an outsider.

It was quite an experience.


I was present at several services at “The Bible Speaks” in South Berwick Maine.

And late in 1975,
the services that previously were being held at the mansion in Southboro, Massachusetts,
were changed to a new location,
the Charlotte Dunning School in Framingham, Massachusetts.

Friday night and Sunday services continued to he held at Charlotte Dunning School,
in Framingham, Massachusetts,
from 1975 until the “D-O-U-B-L-E CATASTROPHE” occurred in Lenox, Massachusetts in 1987.

[Services did continue after 1987,
but of course,
Pastor Carl Stevens was no longer present.]

The Lenox Bible College did not exist in 1975,
but Pastor Stevens’ vision that a Bible College would be built in Massachusetts,
did exist in 1975.

It is close to 200 miles from Framingham, Massachusetts to Lenox, Massachusetts.

After the Bible College was built in Lenox, Massachusetts,
Pastor Carl Stevens continued to hold Friday night Bible Studies in Framingham, Massachusetts.

Pretty much every Friday night,
Pastor Carl Stevens would travel from Lenox, Massachusetts,
to Framingham, Massachusetts, to preach his messages.

It is about 60-70 miles from Framingham, Massachusetts to South Berwick, Maine.

After his Friday night services in Framingham, Massachusetts,
Pastor Carl Stevens was likely to travel to South Berwick, Maine
to hold Saturday services.

Then on Sunday,
Pastor Carl Stevens would return to Framingham, Massachusetts for his Sunday service.

And on Monday. Pastor Carl Stevens would be back in Lenox, Massachusetts.

Pastor Carl Stevens did a lot of traveling in this time period (1975-1987)

[Dave (4.156.90.186)]

During the years 1984 to 1987,
I was pretty much ignorant of there being any problems taking place
involving Pastor Carl Stevens’ Ministry in Lenox, Massachusetts.

Friday night services at Charlotte Dunning School,
in Framingham , Massachusetts continued normally,
and Pastor Carl Stevens never give any indication that anything was going wrong,
until one Friday night,
something different happened.

As the end of the service approached,
Pastor Stevens asked us all to close our eyes.

Then Pastor Stevens asked to have a show of hands by those persons present
who would follow him no matter what happened in the future.

I didn’t raise my hand,
and I didn’t peek,
but at that time I knew something was going wrong.

I suspect that about this time,
the Boston Papers started publishing articles about problems going on
at the Bible Speaks Bible Collage, in Lenox, Massachusetts.

[Anonymous (172.209.27.230)]

"It is not gossip. The Lutz's have given many years to this ministry. They are not with us anymore. Do not label the truth as gossip. It is this kind of thinking that allows the deceitful leaders to continue while the men with integrity leave. The truth should be everyone's concern. The fact that Pastor Lutz is NOT taking the presidency should speak volumes to you. Instead you refuse to think and stick a label on it and call it gossip. It is only a matter of time before the GG leaders will be trashing Pastor Lutz's good name. And that will not be gossip either, that will be slander."

Since when did speaking "truth" on a public forum become Truth?

When posting people sleeping with prostitutes, affairs, guns, cameras, wife beatings etc etc ect becomes TRUTH I will walk away from Christianity - that is not the Christianity I know, not the Lord I know. It sounds more like a heathen soap opera than manifesting Jesus Chrit.
There is a way to speak to people and there is a way NOT to speak to people.

When someone comes on here and is hurt and calls people all kinds of names, if they are against GGWO then you are go running to them in sympathy. God forbid anyone should take a neutral position verbally (many, including myself are praying everyday for both sides).

I have always took the stand that YES there are issues, God be with those that are truly hurt but God also deal with those who come on here and trash people, expecially godly people like Kathy Lutz and Louis Hall and many many more over the past months.

Just because I refuse to post trash on here I am now the enemy?

If there is any common thread at all it is the blood of Jesus Christ. You 64 are no better than anyone else so put your gavel down.

You can take your judgment of me to the Bema Seat sweetheart.

CK

[Dave (4.156.90.186)]

The issues I have with GGWO,
are issues that do not appear to have effected anyone else who has posted on this board.

The issues I have,
involve what I think was mind bending,
that was going on in the pulpit,
and on “The Grace Hour”
in the years roughly 1990 to 2001.

These were years when at the start of each “The Grace Hour”,
It was common to hear mentioned,
that GGWO was a ministry that hadn’t changed any of its teachings.

These were the years, in my opinion,
that a major upheaval was taking place in the teachings of Pastor Carl Stevens.

This was the time period that the name “Jehovah” was being criticized,
and the name “Yahweh” was being considered.

But something more subtle was taking place at this time,
in my opinion.

The previous beliefs held by Pastor Carl Stevens,
concerning the King James Bible,
had to be redefined,
if GGWO was going to teach that God’s name was “Yahweh”

Thus little by little,
in mind bending messages,
“The King James Bible” was no longer to be called “The Bible”.

“The King James Bible”
had to become
only a translation of the Bible.

When one time I heard Pastor Paul saying,
that the name “Jehovah” doesn’t even occur in the Bible,
I called him up to tell him that the name “Jehovah" appeared 7 times in the King James Bible.

Pastor Paul’s answer to me was:

>>>
Dave, the King James Bible is not “The Bible”,
The King James Bible is only a translation of “The Bible”
>>

If GGWO was consistent in this expressed belief system,
this might not be a bad belief system.

However, GGWO definitely is not consistent in this expressed belief system.

THUS THE MIND BENDING CONTINUES!

[Anonymous (80.74.210.203)]

Pastor rebuke also p. Wood, Maria + all of us....
"One-hundred million percent satanic garbage"
That's the very best advertisement!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

A post from Jack Leonard:


Monday, May 24, 2004 - 09:16 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In response to jessica Patton.

I could write a book about my journey from Pastor and Bible School president to Headmaster in a public school. I left The Bible Speaks in 1987 and returned to Boston to pastor my own church (which I planted 8 years earlier). Still, I had the Bible Speaks model in my heart, so we continued to emphasize soul-winning, bus ministry, missions, and ample teaching in the Word of God. The Boston church had a small Christian school where I worked during the day. We were not a GGWO church (as they were now known), but I was always measuring my church against the GGWO model, competing mentally and trying to live up to Pastor Stevens’ standards.

In 1994, I left pastoring and became a high school teacher. This was the most difficult time in my life. First, we had to find another church to attend. That took two years. Again, we were measuring everything against the GGWO model, so if there wasn’t weekly soul-winning, missions, and teaching on the cross, grace, and finished work, it just didn’t seem right. I used to attend conferences and correct the main speakers because they didn’t mention the cross, for example. It took me a long time to realize that the measure of a church is not the vocabulary but the practice. Some churches live grace. They don’t go out recruiting on Saturday nights because they can barely keep up with the stream of new people coming in the doors on Sunday morning. And so on.

By 1996, I knew that at core I was an educator, still a shepherd, but cut out for young people, schools, and teaching. Looking back, I realized that this is what I first did when I came to Christ: I started a Christian school. In Lenox, I worked my way through Bible College by teaching in Stevens Christian School. In later years, I taught daily in the high school, the college, and I oversaw both institutions. In Boston, I spent most of my time in the Christian school. Still, the pulpit messages that were branded in my memory were not of great teachers and administrators, but of Pastors and missionaries. Three times Lee and I tried to go on the mission field; three times God turned us back. That alone made me feel second-class. Stepping down from the pastoral ministry felt like an enormous betrayal.

The worst betrayal was that I was no longer working in Christian education, but instead one of the worst high schools in the Boston Public Schools. Inwardly, I found Jesus there every day and was convinced that this is where He wanted me. Outwardly, I could hear the scorn of former Christian friends who would compare my current work with a former life as Bible School president who traveled all over the world to represent the college. Now I worked in a place where I could hardly mention Jesus or the Bible. How would anyone understand? And why was I so happy?

I love where I work and I have to resist the temptation all the time to justify what I do. I see God open doors all the time to witness, help young people, and extend his kingdom in a very godless place. To be fair, the church that I currently attend shows little appreciation for occupations (callings?) that don’t add to church growth. I believe this is a certain short-sighted problem of church growth ministries. I am almost immune to it.

All this to say that young people need to see that the world is full of possibility and promise. Jesus says, “All the promises of God are yea and amen in Christ Jesus! All the places that the soles of your feet have trodden I have given unto you!” That means Bible College, Christian College, secular college, as God calls.

I think my wife could tell a very similar story in terms of finally listening to the Spirit of God speaking to her individually in her heart.
Jack

[Isabella (207.7.199.178)]

Part 1 of 4:
Until now, I am mostly a "reader" on this board, but I am staying here.

I will not be signing-in on any other forum. If everyone went over to Neil's board, then so be it. It'll be a good excuse to turn away from this once again.

Neil, despite your protests, you seem to want to be the Mediator/Moderator.

Now I am beginning to wonder if we're watching the very thing that these boards are about...destruction of the human being by something that appears to be a religious organization. (I think I just got a Rhema!)

Thank you for reading.

Isabella

[Isabella (207.7.199.178)]

Part 2 of 4: (Re: Neil)
Mediator:
I am suspect of the Mediator thing. If you know what I know, you would know that you are beating a dead horse.

The way I understand it, you are in the process of trying to help achieve healing, on the part of the wounded, by attempting to mend the organization, by facilitating some kind of open-honesty, so that the owners can deal with the "problems" that have caused this mess. Maybe they could repent or apologize to those who have been hurt by them.

You can't be serious!

If they were so inclined, they would have done that back in Wisscasset, or maybe back in Lenox, or maybe....

I hate to reveal my paranoia (which, by the way was exacerbated by being in this group), but who's
to say that this isn't a ploy to silence the outrage?

This sounds,more & more, like classic Scott Ronbinson. He is truly Amazing...I'm speechless.

Thanks for reading.

Isabella

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Isabella,

I agree with you. God does not want to see another marriage destroyed by GGWO influence.

The subtly of of "dividing" can be couched with sincere words and concerns, but it is obvious to anyone on this board for awhile, that as Neil began his dialog with the current leaders, his thought process changed. We need to pray for him and Keri today. Marriage is a sacred institution. There are children involved also.

Neil believes he can mediate change but only true change comes with repentance first. Without repentance on the leaders part it is only damage control. The leaders will protect their self-life at all costs and call it protecting God's ministry. What they fail to realize is this leadership grappled the controls away from God a long time ago. While at the controls they have left casualties in their wake, scattered across many decades and states. Time for repentance, healing, restored brethren, restored marriages. This can occur with or without the leaders. God doesn't need their self-serving, uncrucified lives to do His work.

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

Seems like Neil took his ball and went home...seems like wood and maria are not here anymore after being rebuked from the pulpit for reading it...I still read this forum, if for nothing else, than to read Jack Brown's postings from William Law...those are some great words...

[Anonymous (216.99.185.50)]

I heard that there was some kind of "episode" where P. Lutz "went off" after a Sunday service (either this past week or the week before). Does anyone know any details?

[Isabella (207.7.199.178)]

Part 3 of 4: (Re: Neil)

Moderator:
Despite your protest, you are the person who started messing with this board. Someone kept talking about the dial-ups and how impossible it must be..etc. I have dialup and I'm not having trouble.

In the interest of time, I can only skim this board, but at least I can skim it and see the evolution. How convenient for them that your board shreds the posts as they get old. Neil, you should let your board age...don't cut it off at the knees.

All kidding aside, am I reading that last post correctly? You are thinking of breaking up your family...your family??!!!

I'm going to reiterate these simple points I tried to make on my first post here:

1. Get Out. This is a very dangerous organization especially for children and their families.

2. The very Love you have for people is used against you. You are aquiescing in your own demise.

3. There is life after TBS/GGWO. It takes time, it is difficult, but the alternative is to become one of them, which, as you can see, is no guarantee that you too, will not be eaten alive.

Thank for reading.

Isabella

[Anonymous (80.74.210.72)]

Maybe p. Lutz said what was right?

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

As I was thinking and praying this morning-it came to me that Neil and some others are gone-
Not because of the "abuse" thats gone on in these posts; but because they have been reemed by the leaders and others at the ministry. They have been rebuked and the guilt poured all over them.
Its been years since that has happened to me, but I could still feel it. My heart goes out to anyone that cannot be free enough and strong enough to make their own decision (guilt free) about the things that they want to say.

I am thankful that thru the many years I have gained that back. Don't get me wrong I know from the Lord above that I am responsible for what I say but only to Him!

Sha

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I agree Sha! I do think Neil is being abused by them once again. It is a subtle power that abusers wield. I am praying for Neil, that once again, he can gain back control over his life. God wants Keri and Neil to be together. This church once again has somehow conveyed that mediation for GGWO (he is not mediating for us if it comes without repentance) is more important than his marriage.

Neil, wounds can only be healed by finding the source of the infection. Every parent knows we can kiss our child's bruise and it may comfort the child but the bruise does not disappear. If the wound is deep and infected we take stronger measures than a kiss. The wounds of past and present members are deep and God is demanding stronger measures. We are adults, you cannot pat us on the head and say "all better."

The source of the problem is spiritual abuse and corrupt leaders. These issues have yet to dealt with.

[John Krainis (207.5.239.219)]

Folks, can I suggest a principle of "judging charitably", meaning to think well of someone's intentions if there is any possible way to do so. My strong suspicion is that Neil has been motivated by concern for the hurting, however acting as a broker is difficult and he's probably getting worn out.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

As far as Carl Stevens comments concerning this board--Did anyone think that he would actually approve of being exposed? Did anyone think he would approve of being called into accountability? He will say that no one came to him alone. That scripture was not followed. Many have been going to him alone on a multitude of issues before some of you on this board were born!!! And we've gone by twos and threes. And we've gone meekly because he was older. And we've all been maligned or gossiped against by GGWO minions after we left. It is not ungodly to warn others to beware of error that has been categorized and professed for decades.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Neil,
We do appreciate all your efforts to bring peace to GGWO and all those that have been left in the wake of the practices that have been talked about here. I beleive peace will come.....your efforts are not in vain.
Right now, I think God has other things to do. I understand how it must feel to want peace to reign, but find lots of pouring out of pain, animosity, distrust etc. Somedays, I would look at the board and wonder....what happened? Why does it seem out of control? I think its cause God is in control and often times, he seems to cause utter chaos before he brings in His order.

Of course, to hear what some say P Stevens has said about this board, one would wonder!!! I KNOW that we all know that this board has brought just the opposite! Thank God for that!

I'm delighted to read so many posts by God loving young people. I'm blessed to reconnect with people I thought were lost as friends forever......This is certainly NOT satan inspired!

[wwr (200.117.192.218)]

Pastor Wood is still skimming the board, but has better things to do than rehash what has already been said a thousand times. And, no I wasn't rebuked by anyone for reading or posting here.

As I've said before, there is very little real objectivity here.

Pastor Wood

[Anonymous (12.36.104.2)]

hey Cordell,

how bout I expose you for who you really are and for how many times you been married. I bet the board would say you was being attacked unfarely. All in favor ?

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

P WOOD,
There is a whole lot more than objectivity here. Please don't leave what God is doing.

I've talked to many that say that God is challenging them, bringing them to more prayer, reconciling them with others....explaining to them things they could not understand before, examining their motives and theology, etc.

You don't see this?

[Anonymous (205.242.228.31)]

I just wanted to say that I repent for even reading these things. All that this site has done is confuse me. I go to GGWO and have for the past three years. GGWO taught me about Jesus Christ and I am saved. After coming on to this site yesterday, I questioned my own salvation. I spent eight hours trying to figure (digging in archives) what everyone here is talking about. I still don't have one answer. All I see when I read this is people wanting to gossip. Like 216.99.185.50, asking about an "episode" with P. Lutz, it's none of anyone's business. It really seems to me that half of the problem in the church is people running there mouths about something that they know nothing about and did not witness. I'll admitt that there have been people in leadership that have done things that they aren't suppose to do but why should they have to confess to the congregation? Is that Biblical? Who are we to judge there hearts. No one here knows what those people say when they pray to God. I've been in situations where people judge me for this and that but they don't even know my heart. And for people who are saying that Pastor Steven's needs to address the Body, it's not his right to uncover anyone's sins either. People are never perfect and I just think that everyone here is upset about something that people did to them. Do you go to church for man or God? I'm not trying to put anyone down because I don't know anyone's story, I couldn't figure it out in all of this mess. I do know that this site has brought nothing but confussion to me. One verse that remains in my head is Mat. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. It is one thing to not like a church because of people but it is another to call them a cult.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Dylan Donahue wrote:

Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:51 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although these writings are very interesting and informative, I feel that if you believe that what you are saying is truth you should have no problem stating your name. Only a coward would be on the internet ripping people apart under the name "anonymous".

Dylan,

You is hard for you to see the bigger picture. If GGWO leaders acted in a biblical way, then we could have been dealing with this from within our church. But instead of dealing with these serious issues going on in GGWO, they lied about them, they deceived their own congregation. They destroy anyone that comes against them. If you put your name to a concern about their error, they will slander and malign you. You may call that cowardness on our part. But after watching decades of people's lives destroyed by this tactic, I call it being wise. Why are we just now hearing the truth about the many believers that left TBS/GGWO? Because the tactic of slander was used over and over to keep their story from being heard. It is anonymity that protects us right now. It is very sad in a free country that we must use an anonymous board but it is a fact that nothing else has ever worked. You came to this forum with some questions, ask them, seek answers, weigh through the hurts and anger and wounds and listen to the Holy Spirit and gain understanding, be discerning and you will find your answers here.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

It's messy here because many people are speaking for the first time in years. They are unaccustomed to expressing themselves. Words will fail them.....they haven't used them for so long. They just reiterated what they were taught.

We have to let this happen. Getting to where you know what you believe and why you believe it is healthy. You know where you stand with God, yourself and others.....you are free to live your life before God, as he intended. What is more honest than that?

God wants His creation to be just that......His creation. Not something that was mass produced by a man, group or church.

The world is watching....the world is hungry for truth. It doesn't surprise them or turn them off to see messes......they need to see God turn the messes into something beautiful. If we stay the same year anfter year, we'll fail to show the world a living God.

Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. My experience, is that the world loves to see something greater than what they see everyday, in and out.....its a challenge to reveal God! All our doctrines, practices, teachings, rules and regs can't compare to one moment when a living God is revealed.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

205.242 @11:20am..

I agree that this forum can be confusing, especially if you joined us yesterday! But also I think your confusion is the place many of us found ourselves. We could see things that did not set well with our spirit. But we would waver back and forth.. and many times hush that still small voice within. It was too confusing to listen to that voice and reconcile the things we were seeing and hearing.

You are right, GGWO has a huge problem with gossiping and too many talking. All of this is done privately. Why? Because from the pulpit we hear everything is wonderful, fine, no problems at GGWO. But in reality, the elders are fighting amongst themselves and they are spreading to their friends horrible things about one another. Pastor speaks well of his son from the pulpit but behind the scenes viciously attacks him. This spirit of confusion and gossiping begins at the very top, it continues because no understands what is really going on, but knows alot is happening to those they love and care about, everyone is trying to find the answers. Who is telling the truth. This a product of a dysfuntional church. Nothing is dealt with in the light and with honesty. It brings in a spirit of confusion. The people in GG have been lied to, the deception of "everything is fine" is a lie, there is not unity among the leaders. And their attempt for uniformity is causing any leader with integrity to walk. Soon they will be saying God has done a great work.. we now have great unity. Do not be deceived by that, listen to the Holy Spirit's voice within you. Great unity does not come at the cost of great men and women of integrity leaving. Seek the truth in the midst of the confusion.

[time4achane (63.218.77.98)]

i m here

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

Pastor Lee-You are so right! If people could just look past the gossip stuff and let their hearts guide them to the people and stories that will help in their healing. I actually pray before I get on because I want God to lead me in the things I read and say. He knows where I am in this healing process. This is so needed for some of us!

Sha

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Time4change, I just read your postings on the other thread. Your anger is understandable, you are hurting. I hope that you and your girlfriend and the families involved can work this out. Continue to try. We are praying for you, let us know if we can help in any way.

[Anonymous (205.242.228.44)]

In response to 205.188.117.20:

How do people find themselves on this forum? I do agree that there are a lot of things that are being said from the leadership in the church that shouldn't be but again how is that any of our business? God will deal with them. I refuse to believe that the messages aren't still annointed by God. I guess I just don't see how all of you sitting here talking back and forth is going to bring unity back into the church. Yes something needs to be done but this isn't the way. What is everyone so scared of? If all it's about is the leadership just go to another church, don't sit here and call it a cult. You obviously got your teaching from somewhere?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

205.242.228.44.. do a search on abusive churches, study for yourself and you will find the issues of abusive leadership go alot deeper and are not simply answered by "go to another church."

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

I personally am not talking back and forth here to try to bring unity back to the church. I am here to talk with other believers that were in the ministry and left for various reasons and went through a great deal to get back on solid ground.

I always have and still do give credit to the ministry for the basis of my beliefs. I have always tried to stay positive, because ALL of us are His whether in or out of the ministry.

I refuse to judge someone for being "in or out"
as I was judged. God showed me to be better.

Sha

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

From 205.242 "I do agree that there are a lot of things that are being said from the leadership in the church that shouldn't be but again how is that any of our business? God will deal with them. I refuse to believe that the messages aren't still annointed by God. I guess I just don't see how all of you sitting here talking back and forth is going to bring unity back into the church. Yes something needs to be done but this isn't the way. What is everyone so scared of? If all it's about is the leadership just go to another church, don't sit here and call it a cult. You obviously got your teaching from somewhere?"

"how is that any of our business?"

Should we also let the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and other cults waltz through our neighborhoods without challenging their doctrine and warning our brethren? The church is our business if we are a part of it, and I don't mean just GGWO I mean the visible church of Christ. We need to be aware of error, attempt to rescue those who can be out of it and warn those who remain in it and perpetrate it. Mt.18:6 "whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." That is why it is our business and every thinking Christian's business.


"God will deal with them."
Yes He will. And sometimes he uses humans to deal with them. And he just might use us. See 2 Sam. 12, and Eph. 5:11 "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;" The command here is addressed to humans. He just doesn't say "I'll deal with them."

"I refuse to believe that the messages aren't still annointed by God."
That was the problem with most of us who are no longer a part of GGWO. We refused too. The only "anointing" on the Word of God is through the Holy Spirit of God who "spake by the prophets." And the Holy Spirit can speak through a donkey. The effectiveness of the Word of God does not depend on the life of the preacher but on the One to Whom the Word belongs.

"Yes something needs to be done but this isn't the way."
So suggest something.


"What is everyone so scared of? If all it's about is the leadership just go to another church, don't sit here and call it a cult. You obviously got your teaching from somewhere?"

Some here live in fear of loss of relationships with family and friends who are still in GGWO. Some do fear reprisals because they are still inside and questioning what's plainly going on.
It is about leadership pretending to speak for God and at the same time behaving in an ungodly manner. That's hypocrisy. One type of cult is an organization based on a single personality. That is what GGWO is. It has Christian trappings and espouses some evangelical doctrine. But it has never addressed the damage it has done or the hurt it has caused. GGWO would rather that we all just go away. Maybe this time we just won't, thanks. We got our teaching in the past from GGWO and now we are having to unlearn it. As you should. If "things are being said from the leadership that shouldn't be" how is that not your business?

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

By the way, what do we say the marks of a church are? Look at the commands of scripture in Mt.28:18-20 A church is where disciples for Christ are made and baptised. We are also commanded to break bread in remembrance of His death till he comes. So a church exists where the gospel is faithfully preached and the ordinances or sacraments are faithfully administered. Does GGWO qualify as a church in these terms? I am interested to see what others think. somebonus@yahoo.com

[COG (141.157.120.72)]

To 10:37 AM:
What do you have against Cordell?
He has allowed me to email him (I asked him for his help) and tell him all of the FACTS about being abused at TBS, he has helped me deal with the hurt by giving me very Biblically sound advice.
He has helped others on the board as well.
As he said the other day, many women are coming forward and givng very factual information about issues with leadership and pastors at TBS and GGWO.
It is a shame that people are so mean to each other.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Cordell,
I agree with most of what you said (4:18 post) except that Greater Grace is NOT a cult, it is still a Christian church that preaches the gospel. It is not based on Pastor Stevens' personality, even though he is idolized by many. It is based on the Word of God. GG does not just have "Christian trappings" and "espouse some evangelical doctrine". It IS a Christian church, and most of the doctrine is correct, with some that is a little off balance, like the authority one.
We DID get our teaching from GG and we do not have to unlearn it, as you say. Only a small part of it was wrong, and of course the hypocrisy of the leaders is wrong. But the teaching was mostly sound

SJ

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

"So a church exists where the gospel is faithfully preached and the ordinances or sacraments are faithfully administered. Does GGWO qualify as a church in these terms"

Yes it does! How could you say it does not?

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

SJ
I know how you feel. Can you be specific about what you think is sound? I have lost many friends who were converted to Carl Stevens and not Jesus Christ. I can give you names of not just a few. There are pastor worshippers on this very board. How is Christ exalted in the preaching? Can you explain it? Be specific. I am not mocking you. I am really interested in what you have to say. Did you see Wood's exposition of Ro. 11:29? Do you agree with it?
Happy trails for now. somebonus@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (4.155.66.176)]

Last night I was thinking about the verse that someone mentioned in an earlier post, a verse that we have heard so often at GG , Matthew 7:16, "You will know them by their fruit." I have really struggled with this verse, because of all the "fruit " of the ministry. I discovered a very clear explanation in the book "Twisted Scriptures" and I hope that it will bring in a new understanding of fruit, and the Biblical meaning of the word. For me, it was like the light was finally turned on.

" To Jesus, the sign of good fruit (Mt. 7:16) is not the number of apples on the tree, but whether those apples are healthy or rotten....If you look up all the places in the Bible where fruit is mentioned you will find that it doesn't refer to the number of new disciples you've gathered. Rather, it is the virtue that is growing in your life. When the Bible speaks of fruit, think of the quality of a virtuous life. An excellent reference is Gal. 5:22-23.
Many churches say when they are growing in numbers this "shows their fruit." Look it up in your concordance and you will discover that growth in membership has nothing to do with fruit."

GOOD STUFF! That certainly cleared it up for me! "By their fruit you will know them.." Well, you need to look at ALL the fruit. You don't have to look very far to see the bitter fruit that has been produced by this very corrupt, very abusive system called GGWO.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Cordell,
I did read P.Wood's post on Ro 11:29 last week, but can't remember any specifics. I know it means that when God calls someone or gives them a gift, that He does not change His mind.
You asked me what teachings are sound in GG. They teach the true gospel message and the Finished Work, that it is by grace through faith in Christ and His payment for our sins on the cross. They teach you cannot lose your salvation, which MANY churches believe that you can if you sin. They teach when we sin we don't lose salvation but fellowship with God till we confess and rebound (compare that to what Martin L. believes, that Christians can never sin!) They teach the truth about tongues, that it is a sign and a gift, while so many churches teach that you must speak in tongues to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. But GG teaches that you are baptized in the Holy Spirit when you are saved.
These are some basic doctrines. I could go on and on but I don't know what you are looking for. Basically I believe GG teaches sound Christian doctrine and has just got off on some of the side issues, like authority, and maybe some odd little things like P.Stevens gets on his own(like faith field, right and left emotions,etc)
Yes, I do think Christ is exalted in the preaching.

SJ

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

I agree with you, Cordell.

It is not the purpose of this board to preserve GGWO at all costs. While it should not be the purpose of this board to destroy GGWO at all costs, either, it should be to do what has to be done.

TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT!

TO ALLOW THE TRUTH, THE REAL TRUTH, TO BE SPOKEN.

If GGWO is brought down, then so be it.

[COG (141.157.120.72)]

Sha,
I really appreciate your posts. You and I seem to have a lot in common. I was in Lenox when you were, but I can't remember if I knew you.
If you would like to email back and forth you can email me at jlsgee123@yahoo.com.
Hope to hear from you soon!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Jack Brown (141.157.95.13)]

Cordell:

With regard to your posting on the marks of a church...sometimes we see what a thing should be by first recognizing what it isn't.

William Law on the natual man and his religion...

"A religious faith that is uninspired, a hope, or love that proceeds not from the immediate working of the divine nature within us, can no more do any divine good to our souls, or unite them with the goodness of God, than an hunger after earthly food can feed us with the immortal bread of heaven. All that the natural or uninspired man does, or can do in the church, has no more of the truth or power of divine worship in it, than that which he does in the field, or shop, through a desire of riches. And the reason is, because all the acts of the natural man, whether relating to matters of religion or the world, must be equally selfish, and there is no possibility of their being otherwise. For self-love, self- esteem, self-seeking, and living wholly to self, are as strictly the whole of all that is or possibly can be in the natural man, as in the natural beast; the one can no more be better, or act above this nature, than the other. Neither can any creature be in a better, or higher state than this, till something supernatural is found in it; and this supernatural something, called in scripture the WORD, or SPIRIT, or INSPIRATION of God, is that alone from which man can have the first good thought about God, or the least power of having more heavenly desires in his spirit, than he has in his flesh.

A religion that is not wholly built upon this supernatural ground, but solely stands upon the powers, reasonings, and conclusions of the natural uninspired man, has not so much as the shadow of true religion in it, but is a mere nothing, in the same sense, as an idol is said to be nothing, because the idol has nothing of that in it which is pretended by it. For the work of religion has no divine good in it, but as it brings forth, and keeps up essential union of the spirit of man with the Spirit of God; which essential union cannot be made, but through love on both sides, nor by love, but where the love that works on both sides is of the same nature."

A good start perhaps to a rolling discussion on the Church.

Jack

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

4.155.66.176... thank you for that excerpt. I also found myself reeling in confusion when I left the ministry. The shunning was so heartbreaking. I did not understand how those within GGWO could now call me evil because I had differences and left. It was at that time that God showed me how GG'ers preceive fruit and what fruit really is. My fruit remained, how I lived my life day in and day out remained. I still prayed, considered my life to be unto others. Still conveyed Him as my Savior in word and action. My life continued to bare fruit outside of GG. And yet I was evil? And yet I have seen the most ungodly behavior from the very leaders of this "fruit-baring" ministry. It is in the things not touted from the pulpit before all that reveals fruit. It how you conduct your life.. everyday.. before the unseen. On that criteria GG leadership has no fruit at all. Never will, if there is not major repentance.

[Anonymous (4.155.90.54)]

AMEN to the 5:52 post. AMEN.

[Jack Brown (141.157.95.13)]

Cordell:

More of the natural man and his religion...

"This is the religion of divine inspiration, which being interpreted, is Immanuel or God within us. Everything short of this, is short of that religion which worships God in spirit and in truth. And every religious trust or confidence in anything, but the divine operation within us, is but a sort of image worship, which though it may deny the form, yet retains the power thereof in the heart.

And he that places any religious safety in theological decisions, scholastic points, in particular doctrines and opinions, that must be held about the scripture words of 'faith,' 'justification,' 'sanctification,' 'election,' and 'reprobation,' so far departs from the true worship of the living God within him, and sets up an idol of notions to be worshiped, if not instead of, yet along with him.

And I believe it may be taken for a certain truth, that every society of Christians, whose religion stands upon this ground, however ardent, laborious, and good their zeal may seem to be in such matters, yet in spite of all, sooner or later, it will be found that nature is at the bottom, and that a selfish, earthly, overbearing pride in their own definitions and doctrines of words, will by degrees creep up to the same height, and become that same fleshly wisdom, doing those very same things, which they exclaim against in popes, cardinals, and Jesuits.

Nor can it possibly be otherwise. For a letter-learned zeal has but one nature wherever it is, it can only do that for Christians, which it did for Jews. As it anciently brought forth scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, and crucifiers of Christ, as it afterwards brought forth heresies, schisms, popes, papal decrees, images, anathemas, transubstantiations, so in Protestant countries it will be doing the same thing, only with other materials; images of wood and clay, will only be given up for images of doctrines; grace and works, imputed sin, and imputed righteousness, election and reprobation, will have their Synods of Dort, as truly evangelical, as any Council of Trent."

Jack

[Jack Brown (141.157.95.13)]

Cordell:

And who is this natural man in the Church?

"Our divine master compares the religion of the learned Pharisees 'to whited sepulchers, outwardly beautiful, but inwardly full of rottenness, stench, and dead men's bones.'

Now whence was it, that a religion, so serious in its restraints, so beautiful in its outward form and practices, and commanding such reverence from all that beheld it, was yet charged by truth itself with having inwardly such an abominable nature? It was only for this one reason, because it was a religion of self.

Therefore, from the beginning to the end of the world, it must be true, that where self is kept alive, has power, and keeps up its own interests, whether in speaking, writing, teaching or defending the most specious number of scripture doctrines and religious forms, there is that very old Pharisee still alive, whom Christ with so much severity of language constantly condemned.

And the reason of such heavy condemnation is, because self is the only root, or rather the sum total of all sin; every sin that can be named is centered in it, and the creature can sin no higher, than he can live to self. For self is the fullness of atheism and idolatry, it is nothing else but the creature broken off from God and Christ; it is the power of satan living and working in us, and the sad continuance of that first turning from God, which was the whole fall or death of our first Father."

Jack

[c_r_f (151.196.250.240)]

well i just want to say the past two days i've been reading all this stuff and thinking. and i've been in this church for ten years, and perviously wrote on this about a month ago-rebuking everyone for talking bad about the church....

i've come to realize that there is a lot of truth being said here. and i also was afraid to admit that when i went to church i left feeling empty, confused, and being taught that confusion is of the devil, i thought i was of the devil..i didn't know what to think of anything, anymore..i still don't.
i've put my trust in pastor's that have betrayed me. i went to the high school and got kicked out and told i wasn't saved. i have been outcasted from my family, and people that are supposed to be my friends, because i won't conform to what the church wants me to be..

and even now i've been through so much bull**** because of the conflicts the church has instilled into my soul, and mind. most recently i was close friends with a member of the church who also felt very similar about life as me, and when her friends from the church came to visit her at our apartment, they brainwashed her into thinking she was going to hell if she hung out with me, and it was just a big mess. is this what church is supposed to be?
why is it that if someone backslides and repents and conforms then their still saved and their redeemed, but when i say," hey i've repented, but i'm still me" then i haven't really been renewed?
what am i to think now? am i saved, even though i cuss, and smoke? am i still saved if i don't recieve from a hypocritcal pulpit? am i going to hell because i just said that? what are the right thoughts to have? i do feel like i need to re-learn who God is!!

i do believe pastor should come out about his drug problem. i know for me that would just make me respect him, to know he doesn't think he is jesus. i mean, he preaches that we are all capable of committing the same sins, each one of us is subject to fail.
are we supposed to also hide it from our fellow members in this "so called body of christ", we have through this ministry?

i don't know about any of you, but i have very very few friends in that church. i can count on one fingerless hand the amount of people that have tried to get to know me, and i mean the real me. is this the body of christ? a body of strangers. or am i more a body member if i run up to pastor after church just to touch his hand. and act like i'm happy and without doubt all the time, when i really don't feel that way!!!
should i be putting my faith in a pastor who is supposed to be so "close-knit" to his church, but he can't even come clean to us about his problem, that i'm sure would help many others with the same-
now my question is, what now? how do i retrain myself how to think? where do i go for guidence? how do i really know if i'm saved, if i'm evil,if i'm "off". who do i trust? how do i know if i'm hearing from God, or it's the gg teachings that have been instilled in me for years that i'm hearing in my head.

CRF

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Dear CRF,

You are saved, you a child of God. He loves you and I know you and I love you. Those are real feelings that many of us have experienced. God is not interested in whether you attend GG or not, whether you are attending anywhere. He is not interested in whether you drink, smoke or swear. Those are all outward things, weaknesses of the flesh. That stuff is never the issue with Him. Do you see that you are seeking Him? That you are reaching out for help? Help in knowing Him. There is alot to seperate when leaving GG.. what was of God and what was not. So many things were taught that were true about His nature. But so many practices in the church and day school, in our social life were not the nature of God. Conforming in our speech and behavior to be just like the current group-think, limited our ability to hear the voice of God for ourselves. It limited our ability to questions things. I think someone like you who outwardly acted out at times, did question things caused many to judge you. We at GG are very good at judging those whom do not conform. It made for a hard road for you. But you have alway been His child. and there is a huge Christian community outside of GG that really does give grace. That really allows their sisters to grow at whatever pace they need. That patiently listens to your questions and doesn't judge you for having them. We have been taught to never question anything from the pulpit. But it is through questioning and seeking answers that come to conclusions that are "ours" not someone else's..ours.

I will not say this is a quick journey back to knowing a real and loving and patient God. But it is well worth it. It is like finally getting to be the "real you" and having an intimate relationship with the real Him. You just took the first step tonight. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you more light. He will. It will be like a puzzle finally gets put back together. There are many here that will help you. I would definitely write Karen Duhamel, she is wise and has complete understanding of what you have been going through. Her email is duhamelkm@comcast.net. also David Henke is a wonderful man, president of Watchman Fellowship, his ministry helps individuals coming out of an abusive church. He will send you books and literature to read, he will also give a number where you can call him for counsel. His email is:dhenke@watchman.org.
CRF, please continue to write here and ask your questions. We will all be praying for you.

[John Krainis (207.5.239.219)]

CRF,

Thanks for sharing honestly. Something I love is that Jesus, when He was on the cross, said, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" - He was honest about what He felt, and that lets us know that it's okay for us to be honest with God about where we are at. No masks with Him!

You ask some excellent questions that deserve answers. Feel free to email me at krainis@suscom-maine.net, or one of the others who have posted an email address. Also, did you see the list of churches on the last thread?

[c_r_f (151.196.250.240)]

okay, well i just read the replies, and THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! your reply was exactly the definition i prayed for last night. reading what you wrote- it was like you answered a lot of question in my head. you just given me a peace that God heard me and sent someone to answer my direct questions. i will contact the people you recommended. thank you so much.

i just feel like i have such a long road ahead of me, because i can't decifer between what are God's thoughts and what are my own, and what are gg thoughts.
i just thank you so much for what you said to me. and i just want the veil removed from my eyes so bad. but it's very scary to know what to trust and where to go. because i've trusted gg for so long, so now i should trust someone else, how do i know.

my best friend in the world is a pastor at that church. he was the closest person in my life, he was such an influence on me, a positive one. and then he had an affair with my sister, and now has to stay away from me and my family.

i'm afraid to trust anyone-who knows what's right-you know what i mean?

i just am really overwhelmed with questions, and trained responses that i learned from gg, that i want to change.

[Anonymous (216.183.185.93)]

C.R.F

Don't give up hope, there truly is God's abundant life outside of GGWO.
It took me about 18 months after I left to realize this. Often I would confuse God's blessing me with a "permissive grace", that came from the twisted teaching of Carl Stevens.
This teaching suggested that anyone who left the ministry and found supposed blessing outside of GGWO was really being led along by Satan and that God did not approve. What a bunch of trash. I never felt closer to Jesus than when I finally extracted myself from GGWO , and its twisted teachings.

[Isabella (207.7.204.230)]

CRF's Post says it all:

We are witnessing this confusion on this board even as we speak about it.

This is the fruit of this so called Ministry.

What would "Pastor" say?

He would say that CRF has a "double-mind".

Does he have compassion for this person?

Does he care about this person?

"One-hundred million percent satanic garbage"

You are right, old man, you should know.

Thank you for reading my post.

Isabella

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

c r f When I read your words-"I can't decifer between what are Gods thoughts and what are my own and what are GG" I couldn't believe it. Just know that you are not alone-many have gone thru that, including myself. If you read my earlier posts that was the week I spoke of at my aunts house where I just could not function and those were my exact thoughts.

Please hang in there, I promise it does get better. Stay strong in the Lord. He believes in you so that means you can believe in yourself.

My prayers are with you!

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Isabella;

Your last post was on the money.
Where have you been?
You should post more often.

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

CRF: I think I know who you are too. I will be praying for you specifically. Please allow yourself the time to come to terms with all the confusion. Definitely contact those people and read any recommended books. It is obvious that you have a desire to find God and you will find Him. He loves you and will lead you to the right people and church. I know in some ways you feel duped and mad at God for exposing to the untruths that we lived under at ggwo, but I do believe God had a plan in many of us being there for a time. Take the good that you learned about God, allow yourself the freedom to think (give up all those notions of "entertaining evil", etc...), make some new friends that can lead you on the right path, and you will have Victory! I have been going through this process for a few months now and it is very hard and very emotional, but then comes a sense of freedom and excitement to get to know God in a whole new way. He has led us down this path for a reason and He will continue to lead us toward Himself. Just be honest with yourself and trust the prompting of the Holy Spirit. You are a beautiful girl with a welcoming personality and God has plans for you. I'm also so sorry you had to experience that situation with the pastor and your sister. I wish there weren't so many stories like that coming out of ggwo. I actually started doubting my life with ggwo when I realized I was exposed to a lot less sin when I was unsaved and lived in the world. I know we are all sinners, but can we find a way to reign it in? I think once we learn more about the true nature of God and find balance in our church life, that we will experience Him being able to work in our lives more effectively. God Bless you and sleep well! AJL

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

To: Anon 4.139.12.20 who posted on thread # 8
on monday may 24 at 6:01 pm

Regarding your experience with Louis Hall;
This is a guy who lived in the dorms in lenox among the Bible school male students. He was a serial crotch grabbing administrator with definite gay charachteristics. I don't hate gay people but find their sexual orientation repuslsive. At the same time, those I have known people that are gay in secular situations often conduct themselves in the workplace with higher comport than a lot of people.

Louis , on the other hand (no pun intended)
dismissed our concerns with his silly grin, often changing the subject, while asking for a hug, which was usually a long hug !?.
A few things have changed since then. He is no longer able to use the privacy of the dorm setting to get away with his butt slapping, crotch grabbing antics. On a few occasions he was thrown on his ass by an un appreciateve Bible Student who could not accept "joking around"

Pastor Stevens would occasionally make direct reference to Louis Hall, offering to find him a wife. A lot of the guys knew exactly what Pastor Stevens was referring to as he grinned at his own clever comments. Talk about uncovering peoples weakness....

This may give you some background on who you were dealing with and why. Hope it helps. Your visiting freinds got the abreviated version of ten reasons to avoid GGWO.

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

To: 216-99-185-50 who posted Tues. May 25th, 2004 at 9:08 a.m. stating:

Seems like Neil took his ball and went home...seems like wood and maria are not here anymore after being rebuked from the pulpit for reading it.......................

My response???

First of all, I have a very happy productive life in Christ with the body of Christ outside of this forum. I am also not obcessively consumed with it because I have to guard my heart just like everyone else who posts here.

Secondly, "216," -- Its people like you that I pray for, and about mostly. The "baiting" i.e. seemingly hurtful remarks may seem humerous to you as you post them, but in truth you just nit pick and criticize someone like Neil who has done nothing else but try to be a mediator/go-between to help those in need, and now, its gotten
to the point where it is jeopardizing his marriage. Thank God for people like Jack Brown who was online as Neil posted that he and Keri were separating. Jack jumped right on the bandwagon and reached out to Neil. Did you? No. You had to make a snide remark as to how he "took his ball and went home." (did you forget the other part of that snotty statement that says "with his tail between his legs???") You know, that was so edifying to just kick him more when he is down. He already has shared his heart on here before saying how this is putting a strain on his marriage.

You're the one who ought to take your ball and go home, you obviously aren't a teamplayer that cares for the welfare of others here!!! Neil is going through a lot right now so back off and let him alone. In plain English, GROW UP!!!!


Maria T

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

To: "64" who posted 5/26 @ 1:05 a.m. stating:


"Louis , on the other hand (no pun intended)
dismissed our concerns with his silly grin, often changing the subject, while asking for a hug, which was usually a long hug !?.
A few things have changed since then. He is no longer able to use the privacy of the dorm setting to get away with his butt slapping, crotch grabbing antics. On a few occasions he was thrown on his ass by an un appreciateve Bible Student who could not accept "joking around" -----

WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR TRASH AND FILTHY STORIES ELSEWHERE???????

WHAT EDIFICATION WAS THERE IN WHAT YOU JUST WROTE??????

UNLESS, YOU WERE THE ONE WHOSE "ASS" HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY BEING GRABBED, OR WITNESSED IT YOURSELF, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SPREAD SUCH WICKED HATEFUL REMARKS. NO WONDER PASTOR STEVENS SAID WHAT HE SAID SUNDAY NIGHT AT SERVICE IN REGARDS TO THIS FORUM. ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU POSTING TRASH LIKE THAT WITH NOT ONE EDIFYING THING IN IT -- I AM SURE THATS WHAT HE MEANT ABOUT PEOPLE PARTICIPATING IN THIS BEING A WORK OF THE DEVIL. THAT FURTHER SUBSTANCIATES HIS POSITION WHEN SICKENING PEVERSE THINGS ARE SAID ABOUT SOMEONE THAT IS A BROTHER IN CHRIST. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF YOU WERE GAY (AND I AM NOT SAYING LOUIS HALL IS GAY EITHER FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO LIKE TO TWIST THINGS PEOPLE SAY ON HERE)...WOULD YOU WANT THAT FILTH SAID ABOUT YOU TO ANYONE???

sO, PAM, ARE YOU GOING TO SLAP MY HANDS AGAIN NOW FOR STICKING UP FOR LOUIS HALL???????? OR FOR STICKING UP FOR ANYBODY THAT HAS THAT KIND OF UGLY HATEFUL THINGS SAID ABOUT THEM. WHEN ARE YOU JUST GOING TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT UGLY FILTH LIKE THAT DOESN'T COME FROM THE LORD????? YOU CERTAINLY HAD ENOUGH TO SAY ABOUT LORETTA AND I STANDING UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT -- IMPLYING THAT WE AREN'T WELCOME HERE. WELL, SOMEBODY HAS TO STICK UP FOR THOSE OTHERS GET PLEASURE IN POSTING SUCH HATEFUL THINGS ABOUT.

GEEZ, I THOUGHT PEOPLE WERE REALLY INTO GETTING HEALED, BUT ITS STILL THE SAME CHARACTER MALIGNING FROM THE SAME ONES OVER AND OVER AGAIN. FRANKLY, ITS GETTING OLD.

SO, WHO'SE THE TARGET FOR TOMORROW??? THE LUTZ'S WERE GIVEN A BEATING HERE ON THE FORUM...PASTOR PAUL...LORETTA...ETC. ETC. ETC. WHEN IS IT GOING TO END????

MARIA T

[Jim Faucett (63.241.220.61)]

Jim Faucett Part 6

jffaucett@yahoo.com



In early 1975, one of the prominent young men whose marriage had been touted and praised by Carl Stevens in 1972 began to feel that he had missed out on his divine design. This young man had moved to New York City to work in the restaurant of a relative and had separated from his wife. He felt that his real divine design was Carl Stevens’s secretary at the time. Divine design was Carl’s complement to “no-touch” love. If you found your divine design, you would have perfect harmony and could “literally have great sex for hours, all night long.” Naturally, if folks who had been married for a few years began to experience problems, they thought that the reason was that they hadn’t really found their “divine design.” Carl appealed to the Creation narrative to substantiate his doctrine saying that if Eve was literally taken from Adam, then it is reasonable to expect that there is a woman out there taken from every man. Never mind the mathematical problems with this theory or the Beach Boys (two girls for every boy.)



Eventually, Carl went down to New York to convince his young protégé to return to his wife and that she actually was his divine design and that he was deceived. Another young lady perceived that God had revealed to her, with the help of comments from others as to their similarities, that Tom Schaller was her divine design. Schaller was in Finland at the time, and the young lady asked me to help her shop for gifts for him as he would be returning to South Berwick for a time. Upon his return, Schaller was bewildered by the woman’s affections and she got the message that he did not share her view. Eventually, Schaller and the aforementioned secretary married and are to this day as far as I know. The young protégé sadly no longer professes Christianity, lives in Maine and has been married to the same woman for nearly 32 years.



At the time, I also got engaged. Carl Stevens announced the engagement from the pulpit. My reasoning was that because I was not physically tempted by my fiancée that this must be a good prospect for no-touch love and that divine design would kick in sooner or later. We had some talks about the hours of sex, both of us considering it not without a great degree of trepidation. I later broke off the engagement and escaped to England. My ex-fiancée married another pastor and had twins. Whew!



One of the TBS staff members had once described his Bible College—Grand Rapids School of the Bible and Music—as the Grand Rapids School of the Basketball and Marriage. The Northeast School of the Bible was fast becoming the Northeast School of the Bridegroom. From what I can remember, there seemed to be a wedding every Saturday in 1974 and 1975. I remember riding to Brunswick, Maine in the famous Lincoln with Carl Stevens and a roommate pastor of mine. My roommate was seeking “divine guidance” for his choice in a marriage partner and brought up the name of a new student from Maine. They had not even started seeing one another seriously and from what I understand were not even close to bringing up marriage. Carl told the young man after screwing up his face as if to check in with the divine hotline—“Yes, she’s the one.” That marriage later ended in divorce.



Before revealing the doctrine of divine design, many of us trusted that Carl Stevens had some prophetic power of wisdom or discernment that could reveal to us whether the relationship we were in was “of God” or not. In 1973, shortly after the Bible speaks moved to South Berwick a dayschool opened and I was swept off my feet by the Kindergarten teacher. She was thirteen years older than me and had stunning red hair. We’d gotten to know each other on “blitzes” and at the home of a mutual friend who lived across the street from the property on Main Street. I thought “Surely this is the real thing;” my thoughts were so consumed by the relationship that I could not keep my mind on anything else.



One evening I found myself walking back to Carl Stevens’s home alone with him. He lived in the house at the top of the hill at the back of the school property. When we arrived at his house, I invited myself in and sought guidance in the relationship. The only thing I could do was to profess undying love for this woman, who had been in the church for many years and had served in Germany as a missionary. Carl paced back and forth across the kitchen floor, as I rattled on about the relationship. Barbara Stevens, who passed away in the late 70s, was also present watching the proceedings. The more I talked, the more Carl paced. Finally, Barbara said, “Why don’t you stand still? You can be the most aggravating man to try to talk to!” Despite her presence in the background, Barbara Stevens was a wonderful person. Her trials during those years defy description, and someone who knows her better than I would have to bring them to light. Thanks be to God that the woman I was involved with had the good sense to end the relationship and avoid disaster. She later married David MacAdam. They are still married and have a great ministry and family. We served together planting what later came to be Colchester Christian Fellowship. They stayed in England for ten years.



During the first years in South Berwick, a receptionists office was located on the side street in a sort of porch area. During breaks taken by the receptionist, some of us covered the phone for her. One day David MacAdam’s father called the school looking for him and Scott Robinson answered the phone to an apparently crackly connection. “Hello, the Bible Speaks,” he said repeatedly, “Hello, the Bible Speaks” giving little time for a response. Finally, Mr.MacAdam shouted down the phone, “YES, BUT DOES IT LISTEN?” Some of us have wondered this concerning The Bible Speaks for years.

[Alexei Kuzmichev (202.84.180.198)]

To c r f
Please just know that there are folks out there who totally understand you and available to talk.
It has been long since I quit attending GGWO, and I can say whatewer reason or a number of reasons for leaving, no matter how right they are, the most painful thing is the emotional chaos, confusion and feeling wasted when you leave. The GGWO attach members by a great number of strings, and suppression of critical thought is not the only problem but a just a part of the problem. There are much more strings attached, and even understanding their fake spiritual nature would make a beak-up easier but still not painless. There may be no painless exit out of GGWO. I never had a problem with critical thinking because I never accepted that trashy teaching of p. Stevens that "the head of the man is sick, and the only legitimate way to think for a believer is to reason out of mind of Christ as conveyed from his pulpit". Mind is a blessing, not the curse, and no old fart could persuade me otherwise, with the Bible or without. But the exit was still a pain, so be prepared to be crushed but this will pass.
Do not try to judge Stevens and GGWO from the "biblical perspective" NOW, it is a trap because the only such perspective available to you so far is theirs, and you would feel only guilt which is not convienient when you know you are right, and the latter is most important.
There will be loneliness and the need to come to terms with many things outside, but there is always hope and joy to discover things. And it's not exactly my promice. As I can see from this board, most of us who left remained spiritual, in different ways, and honest.
And I personally don't sell hot-dogs in porn-movies as it turned out there were quite more opportunities.

There was a pastor in Nazi Germany who got into prison for conspiracy to kill Hitler, his name is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. There he kept a diary and wrote letters. They were published later as a book "The courage to be". It is the book that helped me a lot. Especially when I felt like the Gospel was inflated in ggwo by phoney theology and thus devalued.

Sincerely,
Alexei

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

To: Mariah T.

Re: your last post/Louis Hall

Actually I was witness to this behavior firsthand on several occasions, and was responding to a previous post. I was not aware of using trashy language but rather brought to light trashy behavior continuously overlooked by the leadership as long as the perperator was loyal to Pastor Stevens. Interestingly enough the scriptures mention some pretty trashy behavior as an example of what to avoid.

The truth will set us free...but it may make us miserable at first.

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

This time it is your turn Maria T.Everything I said earlier was true (about P.Wood being talked about at the private raps,about Neil not being the right mediator )I did know a lot more stuff about Neil and P wood which I did not reveal.Btw one thing I did know about Neil is that he battled mental health issues and would not really be effective as a mediator they would just take advantage of him ,, he is in essence a real nice person but nobody could mediate anyway unless pastor opens himself up to dialogue/mediation. I retired from the board but am making a come back just for you because you know nothing and you spew venom like a snake,well I have got some for you and this stuff is true.Point nr 1 : Louis Hall has grabbed my butt on different occasions, the story was not even exaggerated ;is he gay? I do not know ,I just know that he likes to grab male butts.....seen it and felt it ....! next point :YOU I will tell you what the spin is they put on you ;they is the church you are defending:the security is very irritated with you when you stick your butt in pastors car just as he is to drive off.Telling stories about this board ,yes you are trying to tell them CONFIDENTIALLY HA HA what is going on here and who has contacted you,you are a JUDAS .They all are annoied with you though,and you think you are doing a good thing for the Lord.Another thing I heard them say (this was a while ago)was about your injury ,they said you were spotted at a buffet WITHOUT your pushcart( to give your injured back support)and you were walking without any problems back and forth to the buffet,maybe you got healed for a season...?!People laughed about it when they heard the story .Next, some on staff suggested that your relationship with your room mate was weard:they said you had a soul power relationship with her, and they suspected possible lesbian tendencies.I know a lot more about you ,especially from "the twins" who lived with you, but I will not reveal it;I am only repeating what the people in leadership(who you are defending) said and are saying about you .They are bothered by you and are making fun of you .One said that next time you put your big *&$ in pastors car,they will tell you to back off , they also said that they will force you to put your cigarette out when you smoke to close to the church....Maria back off with your pathetic e mails I have got lots more for you SM

[Anonymous (217.153.132.50)]

To SM: Please stop - if you want to tell all these to Maria - tell her eye to eye. What you have just done - it is not fair game - and you don't want to help her and other but blame. Keep your mind pure - and let others to live.

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

To Maria T:
I’m sorry you have to read that last post. We are not all out to destroy. Spiritual warfare is not won with attacks but with gentle truth spoken in love.
I cannot verify or dispute the references of SM. Still, I am sympathetic because I can see he is facing the same unchallenged offenses and resultant outrage that many of us experienced.

I read two great comments on the message board yesterday that I think deserve repeating!
From Jack brown and William law, commenting on GGWO:
And he that places any religious safety in theological decisions, scholastic points, in particular doctrines and opinions, that must be held about the scripture words of 'faith,' 'justification,' 'sanctification,' 'election,' and 'reprobation,' so far departs from the true worship of the living God within him, and sets up an idol of notions to be worshiped, if not instead of, yet along with him.

…every society of Christians, whose religion stands upon this ground, however ardent, laborious, and good their zeal may seem to be in such matters…sooner or later, it will be found that …a selfish, earthly, overbearing pride in their own definitions and doctrines of words, will by degrees creep up to the same height, and become that same fleshly wisdom, doing those very same things, which they exclaim against in popes, cardinals, and Jesuits.

No one should be overly impressed with the unique vocabulary and doctrines of GGWO.

And then what a statement from (68.34.67.195) at 12:52 a.m.!
I actually started doubting my life with ggwo when I realized I was exposed to a lot less sin when I was unsaved and lived in the world. I know we are all sinners, but can we find a way to reign it in? I think once we learn more about the true nature of God and find balance in our church life, that we will experience Him being able to work in our lives more effectively.

This makes me admire more than ever the simplicity of the Gospel. The words of the Holy Spirit really work. We do not need to add to or take away from the Scriptures.
Jack

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

"Do not try to judge Stevens and GGWO from the "biblical perspective" NOW, it is a trap because the only such perspective available to you so far is theirs"

I thought that was an incredibly insightful statement from Alexei.....that is exactly what happens when you leave GG and what brings in so much confusion

SJ

[Jack Brown (141.157.120.200)]

Cordell:

To continue on with commentary on the Church and the natural man that has taken it over with his worldly spirit...

"What is the difference between man's own righteousness and man's own light in religion? They are strictly the same thing, do one and the same work, namely, keep up and strengthen every evil, vanity, and corruption of fallen nature. Nothing saves a man from his own righteousness, but that which saves and delivers him from his own light.

The Jew that was most of all set against the gospel, and unable to receive it was he that trusted in his own righteousness; this was the rich man, to whom it was as hard to enter into the kingdom of heaven as for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. But the Christian, that trusts in his own light, is the very Jew that trusted in his own righteousness; and all that he gets by the gospel, is only that which the Pharisee got by the Law, namely, to be further from entering into the kingdom of God than publicans and harlots.

How comes it, that a beast, a scarlet whore, a horned dragon, and other the most horrible descriptions of diabolical power, have been by the Spirit of God made descriptions of the Christian church? How comes it, that the Spirit describes the gospel-church as driven into a wilderness; the two faithful witnesses, Moses and Jesus, as prophesying so many ages in sackcloth, and slain in the streets of spiritual Sodom and Egypt? It is because man's own natural light, man's own conceited righteousness, his serpentine subtlety, his self-love, his sensual spirit and worldly power, have seized the mysteries of salvation that came down from heaven, and built them up into a kingdom of envious strife and contention, for learned glory, spiritual merchandise, and worldly power.

This is the beast, the whore, and dragon, that has governed, and will govern in every private Christian, and public church, till, dead to all that is self, they turn to God; not to a God that they have only heard of with their ears, and their fathers have told them, but to a God of life, light, and power, found living and working within them, as the essential life, light, and power of their own lives."

William Law

[Anonymous (207.7.198.197)]

Ever since I came to this board, I have been more concerned than ever about this dangerous church. I am thinking about the similarities in the Jim Jones church.

Jim Jones was paranoid.
Jim Jones took drugs.
Jim Jones had body guards & guns.
Jim Jones’s congregation (about 900) followed him to Guyana.
Jim Jones was charismatic.
Jim Jones manipulated people through their vulnerabilities.
Jim Jones arranged and controlled relationships from the pulpit.

Many realized exactly what their fate was to be but it was too late.

Sometimes I feel ashamed of myself. I read the posts of Jacks Brown & Leonard and it is obvious to me that they are spending a lot of time and energy to be loving and helpful to all who post. (Also, ‘Just the Facts’, Jim Faucett.) I wish I could take the edge off and say things in a more loving way, but I have memories of women crying at the sight of Stevens and men, lie, steal and cheat (all the while, smiling and saying how much they love you) for him. He has absolute power over these folks and it scares me.

I’m leaving the board for a while. Sometimes you just have to walk away.

Walk away from this church. Go almost anywhere. There are churches in the area now whose people are aware and concerned about this and they may be able to help. Talking Truth seems to have a handle on this. If you still are in touch with your family, go home and take a break.

Get out and talk about it later. Stay on the board and get some good advice from these good people. You have not lost your mind, it’s easy to see who to migrate to for the advice you need. Talk, talk and talk some more with anyone who will listen.

Thanks for reading.
Isabella

[Jack Brown (141.157.120.200)]

More on the Church...

"St. Paul speaks of a natural man that cannot know the things of God, but to whom they are mere foolishness....This is the natural man who, having gotten into the Church and Church power, has turned the things of God into things of this world. Had this man been kept out of the Church, the Church [would have] kept its first purity to this day, for its fallen state is nothing else but its fall into the hands of the natural man of this world.

And when this is the state of the Church, the wisdom of this world (which always loves its own) will be in love with it, will spare no cost to maintain it, will make laws, fight battles in defense of it, and condemn every man as heretic who dares speak a word against this glorious image of a Church which the wisdom of this world has set up. This is the great Antichrist, which is neither better nor worse than anything else but the spirit of Satan working against Christ in the strength and subtlety of earthly wisdom.

If, therefore, you take anything to be Church-reformation but a full departure from the wisdom of this world, or anything to be your entrance into a salvation-Church but the nature, spirit, and works of Christ become living in you, then whether Papist or Protestant, reformation or no reformation, all will be just as much good to you as when Sadducee turns publican, or from a publican becomes a Pharisee. For the Church of Christ, as it is the door of salvation, is nothing else but Christ Himself. When that is alive, wills and works in you, which was alive in Christ, then you are His Church; for that which He was, that must they be who are His."

William Law

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

SM,

Your kidding yourself.

I am a peacemaker, not a mediator.

The mediators and couselors are already working with GGWO.

As far as anything from my past call me anything you want, or drag up any old stories. But I think your skeltons will come out too. DB

Neil Carrick

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Isabella,
You wrote of Pastor Stevens,

"He has absolute power over these folks and it scares me."

You compare him to Jim Jones.

That is a gross exaggeration. Pastor Stevens is put on a pedestal and idolized by many, but he does not have "absolute power" over them. And I haven't heard of any Kool-Aid being given out yet.
Please keep things in perspective and stop dramatizing

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Alexei,

Can you share where you came to know GGWO? How long you have been gone?

I knew a few "Alexei's".. I am wondering if I know you. Write me: ggdissident@yahoo.com

Thanks!

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Here is the email address of mediation group considering helping out GGWO leadership. Be aware that most experts do not believe mediation is the answer for GGWO. GGWO will never address their abuse of authority or false doctrines. Resolution will not be possible.

Please email this group with your concerns:

congreg@wfubmc.edu (ATT:David Odom)

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

SJ,

You say that Isabella is making a gross exageration. That's pretty easy to say now, looking back on Jonestown. I wonder what people had to say about Jim Jones a year or two BEFORE the Jonestown massacre?

I'm not saying that GGWO is exactly like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians. But the stuff that Isabella mentions is real (the security, the drugs, the paranoia). Don't get lulled into a false sense of security by relativism.

And I'm not so sure that he doesn't have absolute power over at least some people. I spoke to one of my friends in GGWO last night, and all she's concerned about is the upcoming Convention. I haven't spoken to her about GGWO in a few weeks. When I mentioned the stuff going on right now, she said she's not interested, the FACTNet stuff and the Sun article are all lies, etc. The funny thing is, she hasn't read ANY of this stuff. It's one thing to read something and say "I disagree". It's quite another to just pretend that anything other than the word from the pulpit is not even worthy of reading.

I think he has plenty of people convinced that he is without error. For these people, Stevens has defined their reality. That's pretty close to absolute power, in my book.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

And to Maria T.,

When will it end? When the TRUTH comes out, when Carl Stevens, or anyone else for that matter, is brought to task for twisting scripture for his own twisted purposes.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

SJ,

You are right that "right now" we cannot be compared to Jim Jones. But what happens with all of us that demand truth, demand the lies to stop, point out the errant stuff, the hypocrisy; finally leave??

There are many experts watching GGWO right now, they also can see the potential that Isabella speaks of.

Look at the men and women that recently left, look at the men and women that left in the last five years, go back ten, then 15 years, then 20 years. That is alot of integrity filled, spirit filled believers that have gone. Look at these as warning signals. Every past president was left. WHY?? Pastor Lutz, consider him for a moment, he is a very intelligent man, he was always revealed the nature of Christ, I trust that man's judgement over any of the current elders. He is GONE!!! He was offered the presidency.. he loves MBCS, he loves the students, what would make this man walk away?? Now think about the women's ministry, I remember Patty Huff back in Lenox, gone. Linda Canino? gone, gone. Kathy Lutz? gone, gone, gone. These are warning signs to us from God.

People in Jim Jones group received the same warning sings, many left long before they moved to Guyana. But many refused to look at the warnings sign, they followed Jones and they died there, their children died there. Some tried to run when the Flavor-aid was forced on them. Now they had a huge warning sign! But it was too late, too late for their children also.

We have a responsiblity to heed God's voice, point out error, demand a voice. Not one leader will listen, not one. That is a huge warning sign.. they are not entreatable. Pastor Lutz saw this and is gone. We who see the signs have a responsibilty to keeping pointing them out to others. It will save someone's spiritual life and it just may save someone's physical life.

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

Jack Leonard: I am the one who made the comment about feeling like I have been exposed to much more sin at ggwo than as an unsaved person in the world. I would love to talk about this more with you and to try to understand the source of this phenomenon better. Which erroneous doctrines does it stem from? We have been taught not to be surprised at people's sin since the "whole head is sick...", but at which point do you need to apply "by your fruits you will know them..." As I raise my children, don't I want the fruit of their Christian upbringing to be abstinence from overt sin? Of course, they will fail in different areas, but I have not found it hard to abstain from overt sin such as drug abuse and adultery, etc... and I was raised by unsaved people in the world. I want the best for my kids, but if all the craziness I have been exposed to at ggwo is the result, why in the world would I want to raise them here? Just some thoughts for the board and I would like the opportunity to speak to you in more detail. Can you please post your e-mail for me? Thanks. AJL

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Thank you Jim Faucett,

Your postings bring so much back to me. It astounds me how much "ridiculous doctrines" I received and incorporated into the good teachings. I forgot all about the "divine design" doctrine. I was there in Lenox, you are absolutely right about that teaching and the effects it had on our choices in whom we would marry. If that is not abuse, I don't know what is! No man should be fiddling with people's lives like that. So your postings continue to remind us all how much we gave our individual walk with God to another. Classic spiritual abuse. Keep writing!

[TalkinTruth (152.163.253.102)]

Many people have pointed out that a church is not a building; it's the people in the building. I'm wondering if SJ and some of the others are saying kind of the same thing but in a slightly different way. Meaning - I believe that there are many God loving Christians at GGWO who truly BELIEVE they are lifting up Jesus and not a man and that one man's authority. SJ when you mention that they teach the true Gospel, I think that in many cases they talk about the true Gospel, but then twist that truth for their own gain -- power. There are also some (at GGCA at least) who teach a God like attitude towards Pastor, and we can't serve two Gods. It is either the truth or a lie.

Someone from GGWO told me that they are not allowed to read or discuss this board, because it is a bunch of lies and would bring bad consequences. Not allowed? It was clarified quickly to mean, "I don't want to read or discuss it." I don't think that anyone stands over this person and prevents her from reading. However, I think she feels so much guilt for considering reading it that the guilt keeps her from seeking truth and questioning anything. Discernment is from the Holy Spirit, but guilt and shame never are. That to me is control. Sometimes, I think the gospel is used at GGWO as a tool of fear to keep control.

I'm not criticizing you SJ because I used to think the same thing, i.e. They are still teaching the Gospel. We read the statement of faith, visited, enrolled our kids with the thinking - oh it's just a different style......the basic beliefs are sound. We didn't stop to see how the beliefs were manifested in the church. When we realized it was, "Steven's way or the highway," we didn't want to really see the truth for a while. Eventually though, we had to acknowledge that we didn't believe in the Steven's way. Don't know if that makes any sense but.....Just some thoughts.

God Bless -
TalkinTruth

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Jesus is called Jesus because He will save His PEOPLE from their sins. He is called the firstborn of many brethren. The scriptures declare Him as singing in our midst. When speaking of the church, we need to see first of all if Christ has a view of it. I believe Christ’s view of His church is revealed throughout the scriptures. While I agree with Alexei to some extent concerning our view of the world when we first leave GGWO, we need not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We all have our favorite “guys” to quote (and that’s not a bad thing). We need to use them primarily to hone our understanding of the scriptures.

William Law cites the dangers of making our “doctrines” into paper popes. This is what the Pharisees did, and even went to the extreme of perverting God’s word. We need to realize that as humans tending toward idolatry, we are “prone to leave the God we love.” We even tend to make up our own God from our ideas of what we think God should be like. Ever hear any one say, “My God is not like that?” That is why the first two commandments occupy those prominent positions. Doctrines are important. The doctrines of justification, election, sanctification, reprobation cited by William Law are all very real and important biblical doctrines. What he warns against is the separation of these biblical doctrines from the Person whose nature they are intended to reveal. See how Jesus spent the time between his resurrection and ascension.

Luke tells us, “Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them “the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures” and “"These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” You are witnesses of these things. "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you..." Luke also records the response of the hearers, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?" Do we feel this way when we gather to hear the scriptures?

We in America have always tended to “nationalize” our religion. We even create new ones and spread them around the globe. We mix in our worship of Christ our own values of individualism, independence, a constant “pursuit of happiness,” and pragmatism. We also mix in our worship of Christ some of our worst national traits—greed, superiority, self-centeredness, and ignorance. Someone once wrote “I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers - and it was not there . . . in her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there . . . in her rich mines and her vast world commerce - and it was not there . . . in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution - and it vas not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because she is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.” This quote, apparently mistakenly attributed to de Toqueville, is nonetheless true. Our pulpits no longer “flame with righteousness.”

Some of those who’ve left GGWO seem to think that any organized church is wrong, that any orderly gathered worship is untenable. There goes the baby…and the neighborhood. Jesus does not just want his “saved persons” to be visible—he wants his PEOPLE to be a clearly visible city, thus: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” A city is visible, disjointed believing “individuals” is an American, and syncretic, view of the scriptures.

How often have we heard someone tell us, “I don’t need to go to church to be a Christian.” Evangelists invite us to “make a decision for Jesus; you’re not joining a church.” This is again, a very American view. In scripture the holy city of Jerusalem signifies the church, see that Paul says: “But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.” I am not going “Roman Catholic” on you, but I wonder how many of you would reel from this statement: “The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel ...and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is NO ORDINARY POSSIBILITY OF SALVATION.” The command to carry the gospel into the world is not given to mere individuals. These are gatherers of the harvest who’ve themselves been harvested. When wheat is gathered into the barn, it is tied into sheaves, hence the Psalmist declared, “He who continually goes forth weeping, Bearing seed for sowing, Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, Bringing his sheaves with him.”

God has not just commanded us to love Him with all our soul, mind and strength. Jesus said the second commandment is like it, “you shall love your neighbor as your self.” Now neighbors by definition are people leading their lives in close proximity to one another. Jesus strengthens the commandment by saying, “By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” We cannot be identified by this sort of love if we are not clearly definable as a community of believers so visible to the world that we are like a “city on a hill.”

Now bring this all into a pastoral perspective. We are told to preach the Word in and out of season, to silence the gainsayers, to cling to the faith once delivered to the saints, to hold forth the Word of life, to feed the flock of God. All this to reveal the Good Shepherd who calls us by name and knows us and loves us and gave himself for us. We need always to be aware of our duty. In a church pulpit near where I live on a small brass plate are these words to remind the pastor of his calling, “Sir, we would see Jesus.”

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

to SM who posted at 3:39 a.m. Wed. May 26th:

Since you are obviously someone on staff, and very obviously someone filled with anger and bitterness to the point where you are obviously tormented mentally, I won't hold your hateful remarks against you. I have better things to do with my mind. The statements I make on this forum are not "spewing venom" like you've said, but since you hear from your father the devil and have the liberty to now be the accuser of the brethren, you have nothing to speak in regards to me. You don't walk in my shoes and thank God I do not walk in yours. You say you have "venom" about me to spew? Go ahead. You can't touch the character of Christ within me. I separated myself from any kind of "emotional" attachments to anybody in this church because of similar hateful things not only done and said to me over the years, but to others. Go ahead and make your day better and your conscience clear and trash my character here on the forum, or at a rap. God will deal with you much harsher than any words I could speak to you.

For the sake of others on this forum who don't know me, I have a right to state "my side" of the allegations of "SM."

The night SM spoke of when I talked to Pastor at his car, it wasn't being a "JUDAS" or an "informant..." and yes, I did stick my 300 lb fat rear up to the window of his car because there are so many stinking nosey people outside that are so afraid they might miss out on counting the tissues Pastor uses to wipe his nose with after he sneezes!!! I spent 5.5 hours ($300) on an overseas long distance phone call ministering to someone that was in this ministry for over 20 years (but left because of hateful ugly people like you, SM who thrive on slandering people and spreading lies and rumors about them behind their backs)...SHE asked ME to go to Pastor Stevens in an attempt to reconcile her and her husband first to God and then to the ministry/body here. 5.5 hours to which I have the phone bill to prove it also. I care more about people being reconciled than I do about your ugly posts.

Since you were not at that car window, and you didn't hear what was said, you only made an assumption of what was going on -- as usual. You can call me "Judas" if you like. Perhaps if you spent your time praying and investing in people's lives instead of gleaning your ear to gossip and slander (whether its about me or anybody else) from those on staff...you wouldn't be such a hypocrite then, would you. I forgot, you're the one who only appropriates the Finished Work message to those you deem worthy of receiving it.

The second thing I spoke about at that car I stupidly published on this forum the other day in regards to Pam Purvis trying to connect her with Pastor Robinson because I was concerned with her being hurt and wounded. She posts that I don't "know" her, but I do from years ago when she worked at Fellowship Hall, and it was before she married Simon. I know why they left the ministry...and it hurt me hearing it. Staff don't just talk about me ya know. I just don't take stuff that I've heard and use it to wound others with. I know where I came from and he that is forgiven much loveth much. Throw your stones, SM. Like I said you can't touch me, you can't wound my spirit, so go ahead and mock me with your little group. Have all the laughs you want. Geez I should spring for the coffee and we can all laugh together. I think my adam nature is funnier than hell to laugh at. I find yours highly amusing too. Too bad we couldn't be friends doctrinally. Its not me that has the problem....

If what you say about Louis Hall is true, and that he grabbed your butt on more than one occasion, how would you like it SM (is that for "sado-masochist"??) if someone posted on the board your real name and stated that you must have liked it when Louis Hall grabbed your butt... because you certainly did NOTHING to stop it after the first time. Someone inappropriately grabbing my butt WOULD HAVE definately get one hell of a slap in the face!!a I'm sure you heard staff rumors 8 years ago when I told Pastor Wells in the chapel to "F" off...(for a remark he made to me that I should have slapped him for and didn't)...and when Pastor approached me and asked me if that was indeed what I said, I told him exactly so, and why I spoke it. So, perhaps you opened a can of worms now...people posting here could assume that is YOU that has gay tendencies also!! Is that what you want? The shoe is now on the other foot, isn't it. You put your foot in your mouth with that one.

Is this worth it?????? Not to me. This is so stinking petty its a waste of my time!! However, since you still are a brother in Christ above and beyond this display of your adamic nature, I have no choice but to see you in the Finished Work. Why can't you learn to see the value of others as God sees them??? Jesus Christ died for all of us. Me and you. I'm no better than anybody else and I know where I came from. I know my redeemer lives. I know his grace, I couldn't live without it. How can you?? How can you look at yourself in the mirror without beating yourself up???? Have you become so arrogant that you no longer care about slandering others? I don't believe that. You are obviously wounded. If taking it out on me spares someone else then so be it.


My roommate has been in this ministry 33 years. She's been on the mission field and God has used her to win numerous souls for Christ. She lives the Finished Work DAILY. I watch her life...how she lays her life down for people in this body, and has been "**** on," "spit on" and called every name in the book for sticking up for what is right doctrinally, or for taking a person under her wing and investing in their lives, because she sees value in that person's soul that they can't yet see. She's not loud, boisterous, argumentative...she has a quiet and teachable spirit. In the 12 years I've known her, she never utters a word against someone negatively. Implying that there is a soul power relationship possibly with lesbian tendencies between us is sick. The staff members you claim spread it...I feel sorry for them that they have to stoop so low to tear others down just to build up their self esteem. I wouldn't have a roof over my head, or a car to even drive right now if it wasn't for the grace of God and the kindness of this girl. Few people have really true godly friends that are there for them no matter what. And you slander her character when you have never set foot in our house??????? Shame on you.

What "DIFFERENCE" have you made in someone else's life since you became a Christian???? The thing is, I'm sure you have made a lot of difference in people's lives. If you're in leadership I feel even sorrier for you that you are so seemingly trapped in your "office" that you have to stoop to posting anonymously and then again, hatefully posting as well.
And, "SM" as hateful as you are to me, if you showed up on my doorstep hungry I would still feed you. Don't you get it yet??? You may not see yourself as having had value to God. You have more value than you could ever imagine...don't degrade the character of Christ within you in a vendetta against me or Neil, or Pastor Wood, or anybody else. We're mere "man"...we are not perfect.


I know where those rumors started in regards to the soul power statements made about me and my roommate. With my being disabled and having to depend on someone for help with dressing, etc. There are times that I have had to have help with personal care. Its very humiliating, but only those who have "been there" would understand that. I can see where the enemy would use that kind of situation to project something ugly like that into the atmosphere.

As far as the "twin" that stayed at my house? He slept on the 3rd floor. I slept on the floor in the basement. He was there if I needed help (except with personal care). Since I couldn't take care of the house, get my own meals, take the dogs out or get them their food, or "whatever"...and I was alone 12 hours a day that my roommate worked---he saw the need...he was angry that there was no help available, and he was the only person who approached us about helping us out. And, his staying at my house was not done "secretly," I had gone to one of the elders and to Pastor Stevens and let them know what was going on...and what wasn't!!! There is nothing ungodly or inappropriate going on in our house.

So, "SM" as much as I befriended those twins and did the best I could to help them, neither one of them have one ounce of respect for delegated authority, and unfortunately they are very spiritually immature even now as grown men... go ahead and print here all the ugly things they've said about me behind my back. Where were you for the six years that we invested in their lives, tried to direct their focus to God and not what people thought about them...trying to show them that they aren't their past, and that they had an awesome future ahead of them serving God if they could get past their own hurts...

you heard from the two of them about me are their spiteful "payback" for ceasing to have contact with them while they "play church." Don't tell me I'm judging them either, I spent 6 years investing in the two of them when others in this body shunned them and mocked them because they remembered them as the "bad boys" from Lenox days. I even had one staff Pastor tell me they weren't redeemable!! Now that was arrogant. Nobody I knew saw their hearts!!! So until you have spent 6 years of trying to direct their focus back to the Lord, and draw them out because they are so stinking wounded they can't even see it, then I would suggest you just plain shut up!!

Last but not least, SM...I know who you are. I can count on one hand the body people that have eaten at House of Kabob restaurant while I was there with or without Nancy. So you smiled to my face, had a few laughs with me while you ate, even greeting others at my table and then mocked me afterwards (laughing at me with your friends as you said yourself)... since I had a pretty good day without pain and could actually go someplace outside my house and NOT have to use my little "pushcart." If you truly cared about my safety, you would have assessed the setup at that restaurant -- how close the tables are one to another, and my using a walker in there would be a disturbance to other patrons in the place. So, I hitchhike around the chairs and leave the walker in the car. Wow. I wish God truly had healed me. That day is coming. I hope your laughing at me was worth it. I'm going there tomorrow *Thursday the 27th...if you and your friends are looking for their daily chuckle.

Like I said, you pick and choose who you give the Finished Work too, you listen to gossip and slanderous things said (by the staff) and laugh right along with them. All I can do is feel sorry for you. I'm sorrier that you miss out on fellowshipping with some awesome people in our body. People here posting are not stupid or undiscerning of the wickedness behind your posts. Why don't you reach out a hand to help those here in need????? Surely its a far better use of your time. I sure could use prayers for my back and since you obviously have time to kill my roommate is home with a broken leg, (and no, we haven't called the church for help this time)...you could work off your obvious frustrations mowing my lawn. Or have one of my cigarettes with me, they are great stress relievers. I never hid the fact that I smoked from anyone.

Maria T.

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

Again,Neil
I believe your intentions are right,I think that all your efforts to be a peacemaker will be to no avail.You are getting frustrated and are hurting yourself trying to bring a solution.The real truth is that people on staff(the ones that have something to say) have a very outspoken opinion of this whole thing.They say that it is all a conspiracy against GGWO the fact that very mature leaders ,staff people are leaving ,resigning is all part of the mystery of iniquity.There is a spirit of paranoia and inquisition behind the scenes,you would be shocked if you knew who were involved and what their political/spiritual agenda is,how they feed in to pastors paranoia etc. etc.They then tell their groupies how bad for an example P.Lutz is, they say he got upset and left because he could not get the bible college job(THEY ARE LIARS)P.Lutz left for a very different reason and if they would have done the same to any of you or me(and rub it in from the pulpit) you would have left too!!Check it out yourself you people with blinders on, do some research you will find lie after lie .They are putting the same spin on everybody that leaves :D.stoddard,ohh she rarely went soulwinning or had this or that attitude,Jacky gough ,ohh she must have been under the influence of her husband ,rarely went soulwinning,Lutz always had a problem in this or that area ,P paul tried to take the church over (which is an absolute lie),the spin on him is that he does not have a gift to pastor,never discipled people and never planted a church plus personal issues with his supposed arrogance and past failure (it is all done for the greater good of preserving the integrity of the finished work, after all you wouldnt want someone like P Paul to be over you now would you)If you want more call them up yourself and find out what really happened;the worst thing is that they are feeding this type of interpretation to the young bible college students and the average congregant .It seems that mainly the mature people,older in the Lord are the ones leaving because THEY KNOW WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES.The finished work must be preserved under leadership of P SCHALLER(who absolutely did tell one year ago that he had received a vision from God showing him in charge of GGWO)Everything that happens to hinder this call must be evil;evil goes beyond personal sin thats why they can talk about the so called conspirators behind their back or from the pulpit they simply expose evil .Listen they only really appreciate you if you go soulwinning and go to raps (or give lots of money, this is more pastors angle though)if you do you are in,if you dont there is something wrong with you(which will be voiced by them too)If you are fit fanatic zealous(like we all were when we first came to biblecollege)and get involved the sky is the limit ,YOU ARE TRULY SPIRITUAL.Maybe you could even join a missiontrip and stay ,but no do not let us down and move back to homebase for no apparent reason,that shows definite lack of character.Have they ever looked you in the eye and said you are awesome ,I love you, how are you really doing ,how is your family etc. etc.does the conversation ever go beyond crucified or burned missionary stories ?Hey if I give my body to be burned and have not love ,it profits me nothing ...Let me ask you this, which comes first" the great commission "or "the great commandment".I am not criticizing men of God but am trying to show to some of you here that there is more going on than a simple conspiracy theory,it is in my opinion God removing the Lampstand from the church until there is repentance.This must first come from the very top;last service an opportunity was given to repent; the finished work was supposedly not honored by many;How about YOU pastor,you could have created so much goodwill if you only would have said:I also at times misjudged people,because of my sickness or people feeding me wrong information or just be being plainly wrong;NO nothing like that,not even one word!!!That is scary to me,I have not heard him say once from the pulpit in 20 years that he was wrong in anything which has to do with leadership.How bout all the words of knowledge he had throughout the years which never came true ,prophecies concerning healings, reconciliations ,discipline, deliverances etc etc I know of at least five incidences which I witnessed myself that never came true !This stuff was never repented from publically .Some of you may say he is too old to repent,I say just look at the church it is crumbling .And btw the elders that are trying to forward their cause are partially products of him too, he consistently raised the bar to go forward ,plant more churches disciple more people,only few,(the very strongest) could survive thats why they come across so hard but I know they really do love God .SM

[Anonymous (4.139.33.221)]

I am a young woman from Main, who attended to MBC&S a year ago and left.
I was ver concerned about my future as a woman in this ministry.
What chances would I have in this ministry to do anything except marry a pastor or do outreach all the time with other single lonely women???
I'd really liked Jackie Gough, But look what happened to her. She's gone.
Then theres Dean Stoddard. She's a perfect example.

I heard of a woman from Asia who married a man that sometimes sings in church 35 years older that her after graduating from MBC&S. Is this what I had to look forward to?

I meet a girl last year from South America who graduate from MBC&S, I heard on this board that she is churchless with no place to run a woman's ministry and encourage others in the doctrines taught by Pastor Stevens.

There was this other afro-american woman I knew who graduated from MBC&S over ten years ago and is leading the MBC&S ensemble. She seemed to live vicariously. It seemed like nobody ever responded to her efforts. I guess it's okay cuz she was in the geographical will of God. Maybe the pleasure trips to Tahiland and Africa for MBC&S made it worthwhile.

Any way what I am trying to say is I was afraid I would have become an old maid like these women or have to marry an old man or something like that so I left. You know I wasn't allowed have any friends that were guys.
I guess this was because of the NO TOUCH LOVE.

So girls from MBC&S open your eyes!
Consider your future.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

While I obviously disagree with Maria T. on many issues, we need to cease the attacks on her size, appearance, dress, personality etc. I am not surprised, however, that criticism of her would be going on amongst the hierarchy. That's part of the problem, "Don't criticise us or you're judging--but when we criticise, condemn and make disparaging remarks about you, it's ok because we're God's men. Maria, while you and I are miles apart on the issues, I certainly think that you as much as anyone else here has the right to say what you please.

[Anonymous (4.139.33.221)]

To Pastor Stevens and sons.....
Do something for GGWO
Please Resign

the body of GGWO.

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

Response to Maria,
Do not twist my stories, all I am doing is showing the hypocrisy of the people you are defending .I did not laugh at you and only repeat what was told to make a point to you .I am not interested if those stories are true or not It is not my place to evaluate you You are being used ,they(except pastor R) are only interested in who is involved in the conspiracy and slandering of the ministry DON'T YOU GET IT

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

"But as it is now our purpose to discourse of the visible Church, let us learn, from her single title of Mother, how useful, nay, how necessary the knowledge of her is, since there is no other means of entering into life unless she conceive us in the womb and give us birth, unless she nourish us at her breasts, and, in short, keep us under her charge and government, until, divested of mortal flesh, we become like the angels, (Matth. 22: 30.) For our weakness does not permit us to leave the school until we have spent our whole lives as scholars. Moreover, beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for, as Isaiah and Joel testify, (Isa. 37: 32; Joel 2: 32.) To their testimony Ezekiel subscribes, when he declares, "They shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel," (Ezek. 13: 9;) as, on the other hand, those who turn to the cultivation of true piety are said to inscribe their names among the citizens of Jerusalem. For which reason it is said in the psalm, "Remember me, O Lord, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; that I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance," (Ps. 106: 4, 6.) By these words the paternal favour of God and the special evidence of spiritual life are confined to his peculiar people, and hence the abandonment of the Church is always fatal."

This is from one of my favorite dead guys.

[talkintruth (152.163.253.102)]

Maria,
For what it's worth, I hope you realize that most people on this forum are able to weed through things said to intentionally hurt someone. I think that sometimes we all say things in life that maybe we wish we could take back. Sometimes we say things out of hurt and anger. That is one downside to posting on a forum. Once you hit that "Post" button, it is gone! And I should also go back and say - maybe the post you are responding to was said in haste too, due to anger and/or frustration.

I have disagreed with much that you have said ;-) but you did say something in your last post that made me feel kind of sad. It was.....
".........You can't touch the character of Christ within me. I separated myself from any kind of "emotional" attachments to anybody in this church because of similar hateful things not only done and said to me over the years, but to others. Go ahead and make your day better and your conscience clear and trash my character here on the forum, or at a rap. God will deal with you much harsher than any words I could speak to you..........."

If I'm reading that right (goodness knows I could be wrong and if so I apologize,) then I can't help but reread that first part. You separated yourself emotionally from people in the church because of hateful things done? I'm not about to question your loyalty to GGWO. Just please know that Jesus does not bring that kind of separation. Sure there are differences and hurts that happen in any family - including a church family, but he doesn't set His people up for "trashing" - not in church, at forums, at rap sessions, etc. Just know that that is not the character of Jesus.

Would you want that kind of emotional separation in your children?? Jesus doesn't want it in His. Maybe this could be just a glimmer to what some of this board have been talking about?
In Christ,
TalkinTruth

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Just a little more from my dead guy:

"as soon as FALSEHOOD has forced its way into the citadel of religion, as soon as the sum of necessary doctrine is inverted, and the use of the sacraments is destroyed, the death of the Church undoubtedly ensues, just as the life of man is destroyed when his throat is pierced, or his vitals mortally wounded. This is clearly evinced by the words of Paul when he says, that the Church is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone," (Eph. 2: 20.) If the Church is founded on the doctrine of the apostles and prophets, by which believers are enjoined to place their salvation in Christ alone, then if that doctrine is destroyed, how can the Church continue to stand? The Church must necessarily fall whenever that sum of religion which alone can sustain it has given way. Again, if the true Church is the pillar and ground of the truth," (1 Tim. 3: 15,) it is certain that THERE IS NO CHURCH WHERE LYING AND FALSEHOOD HAVE USURPED THE ASCENDANCY."

Emphases mine.

[talkintruth (152.163.253.102)]

FYI - for anyone interested in GGCA issues....I have heard back from some of the phone calls that I made. I wasn't going to list all the details on this forum because it is lengthy and didn't want to bore the others. If you are interested, you can email me directly and I can give you what I have been able to learn so far. I'm still waiting for two more calls. We have children in elementary and high school. I have also found out that the high school transcripts may not be accepted by outside schools and agencies in all cases. Again, if you contact me - I can give you the info. that I was given by the Maryland Dept. of Education, Non-Public School Branch. Regarding gun/camera issues, I was referred to legal authorities and I'm waiting for info. from those calls.
God Bless,
TalkinTruth
talkintruth@hotmail.com

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

Wow, a little too much fighting going on here!!

This is not what alot of us coming on this forum expected or want. I have been out of the ministry for almost 15 years and don't miss any of that gossip. Wow so ugly. I only try to fill my life with positive not negative. How dare any of you talk of "winning souls" of a stranger when you can't love the brothers and sister in Christ that you have and know.

And I'm sorry but none of us will be a finished work til we get to heaven-remember we are all human with a sin nature for our time on this earth. God forbid we would be a finished work than why would we even need Him??!!!

Sha

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Can I just say that Maria's heartache is real? TalkinTruth is right, how many others are in GGWO that are emotionally cut off from each other? I am thankful Maria found a true friend in her roomate. So many woman in GG live their lives isolated from those they sit next to in raps and outreaches. This is so sad. We have all been under the false impression this is Christian fellowship but it is not. Women need intimate relationships and through subtle teachings of GG, that has been denied us. Some have found the courage to look these doctrines in the face and say NO! We found real intimacy in spite of being told that it was "off" and it was soul power. Think about why it was taught? Control! So much of the false teachings were about control. Bema Seat Judgement messages? Pastor standing there with us? Why that crazy teaching? Control! Geographical will? Control! If you leave GG, you loose all rewards? Control! Sin unto physical death? Control! Slandering all that leave? Questioning if they were really even saved? Control!

It is time to realize we have been part of a very sick culture. The God of goodness and mercy has been polluted by these controlling teachings. It is time to demand this be exposed to all the body.

[c_r_f (151.196.7.5)]

talkintruth, well i know for a fact that i was taught at gg to "not live in your emoitions", and i would be critizied if i ever started a sentence off with - i "feel" like, cause were not supposed to live in our feelings. which to a 16 year old at the time, was very confusing. so cutting off emotional ties to people should be really easy, since were not supposed to even acknowledge are emotions. which of course meant i am double minded because i believe that but don't live it because i think it's to hard and to confusing.

but knowing what to believe now is the hardest! i was thinking of going to p.paul's church. but is that right? how do i know anymore.. i can't sleep, because all i'm thinking about is, God are you mad at me, am i really seperated from you?

this is a very hard time-i want to go to church tonight, but something in me tells me to stay the hell away. like i told my sister last night,"i can't recieve for my life from a man i don't respect."

now i just pray for some comfort from God, because i really question do i have a real relationship with him, since i want to leave my church.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Those dead guys words are still alive!

Jim Faucett....I had relegated the doctrine of 'divine design' to some remote area of my brain! Of course when I came into the girls dorm in So Berwick, bearing a lovely diamond ring, from someone 'outside the body', I guess I had to learn that doctrine quickly! The ooohs and aaahs were quickly subdued by the question 'Is he in the body?' I was plagued by that question! I lived in fear and asked even more questions than my questioners were! After all, he wasn't getting 'the highest form of education'! (although I was pretty impressed with what he had gotten and was getting) Very quickly, he had 2 strikes against him! This fear, that I allowed in, very nearly convinced me that he was indeed wrong for me.
Fortunately for us, God won and in the end we married and have been together since!
I'll never forget the inner war that was going on. Over the years I've watched many 'in the body' make decisions based on what they thought was the doctrinal thing to do, and then had to listen years later to the heartbreaking pain caused by divorce.

Whatever happened to the 'follow your heart' doctrine? I know it was taught that it was very wrong, but the decision I made to marry Jack was one of following my heart. I'm certainly not sorry for that!

I woke up this morning knowing that I needed a root canal immediately.....I read the post to Maria and from Maria and wondered what was more painful, sitting in the dentist's chair or reading these posts. What that tells me is that there is lots of pain coming from both....what is the source? I agree with 'talkin truth 'Maria, Jesus wouldn't want you to wall yourself off from any emotional attachment to anyone....what a sad way to have to live. Or is there a doctrine for that too?

[talkintruth (64.12.116.66)]

CRF....How blessed we are that we have a God who meets us right where we are. The father didn't walk down the road to meet the lost son...He RAN down the road. He is right where you are, not separated but closer than ever. I have been where you are in the sense of - asking questions, wondering if God was mad, etc. For me, what I found is that in the past I have put God in a box. I can only think in human terms, so I couldn't imagine the depth of his love for me. He is such a creative God and is so way outside the box. I think we have to work really hard to go to hell, because he throws us so many life lines. In your darkest times, you can be sure, He is somewhere nearby and He is throwing you a life line. I don't know anything about Pastor Paul or his church and I'm sure not jumpin' in on that one. All I can say is that many churches in the area have Wednesday night services. Ask God, He will get you where you need to be. It may not be where you end up as a home church, but He will send you confirmation for that when you find a church. You might check some of the ones listed in the earlier post.

Oh - and about the emotions, I don't think for a minute that God would have given us our emotions if we were never meant to feel them. I can tell you that I felt all kinds of emotions the first time I held each of my children. (I still feel all kinds of emotions when trying to get them to clean their rooms - lol,) and I think that God had great joy in the emotions I felt when my kids were born. I think he said, "Hey here's a bonus -how does that feel!" I have praised God, cried to God, yelled at God, etc. Was I separated from Him? No way. Each time he was there to let me get through it and they say, "We need to talk."

He is right there with you CRF
In Christ
TT

[Chris Brown (141.157.74.177)]

c_r_f_

At GGWO there are so many things we were taught to do to be 'spiritual', and if we really loved God we would do those things. Don't worry about what you should or shouldn't do. Begin listening to the Holy Spirit inside of you, and He will lead you in what you should do.

Jesus didn't say 'go to church', Jesus said, 'Come unto me'. He first wants you to get to know Him, before you do anything else. My daughter went through the same thing your talking about, the confusion from being taught incorrectly. She couldn't make a decision, always second guessing herself, and living in fear that God didn't approve of her.

If you need someone to talk to that's here in Baltimore you can e-mail me at cab8849@yahoo.com. Many of us have been through exactly what you're going through now and would love to help, even if it's only an ear to listen or a shoulder to cry on.

[wwr (200.117.192.218)]

To SM from Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:39 am:

Bring it on turkey. You know nothing about me. You just want to inflate your own ego. You think you know something, tell me directly.

rwwood at mayorgracia dot org

Pastor Wood

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

I would like to answer some people who addressed me earlier today.

To 68.33.132.78,(11:03 am)
You say that Pastor Stevens "has plenty of people convinced he is without error". I was in GG for over 20 years and never thought he was without error. No one I knew personally in GG thought that. Pastor Stevens never claimed to be without error. If anyone thought that, it was their own twisted perceptions.

To 149.174.164.83 (11:16 am),
You are right about the people of integrity leaving. That is a very bad sign. I know there are serious problems that are causing them to go.
But I refuse to believe it will all end up as a Jim Jones scenario. I still don't think that is a fair comparison at all.

To Talkin Truth (12:01 pm),
I totally agree that telling people not to read or discuss things is a form of control. If there is nothing to hide than people should be able to read what they want and it will not threaten anyone. I stopped being afraid to read things like FactNet long ago

SJ

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

To SM from Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:39 am:

HERE HERE!!!!


Bring it on chicken. You know nothing about me. You just want to inflate your own ego. You think you know something, tell me directly.

neil@1works.net

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

TO Cordell, Jack Leonard, Talkintruth, Neil and the other anonymous posters. Thank you for your kind words to me today. I appreciate them more than I can say. I don't mean to come across as knowing anything or everything, I only know what I believe GOd is showing me. It breaks my heart reading some of those posts where people are hurting, and I do know that some of those posts are 100 percent legitimate, the rest is for God to sort out.

Both my roommate and I haven't been able to get out to church lately, me with my physical limitations, and also having a very bad bronchitis for the last 10 days, and my roommate as you saw me post today, broke her leg trying to mow our lawn on May 7th, and its a bad break. Things aren't easy at our house right now. I don't always understand Gods plan for my life, I guess none of us truly do when things like this happen.

I never could deal with backbiting and people deliberately hurting each other. Even when things are not going as we believe they should, whether its regarding GGWO issues or issues in our home lives, I just wish that everybody here would stop taking pot shots at people and trashing them. We all have our faults. We all need Jesus Christ whether we stay in GGWO or in another ministry. Those of us that are born again that are posting here, we have the character of Christ within us. Its hard to manifest that character when we are wounded, angry, bitter, resentful...even when those reasons are truly justifiable, when we have been wounded by the body of Christ.

I hope that everybody here posting is able to keep their vertical with God through these difficult days. Perhaps we can all purpose to remember that each person here is our brother or sister in the Lord, whether they are of the group that is hurting and angry, or whether they are those that are trying to minister to them, or, whether they are among those posting in the "defense" of the Finished Work message. I try to do this too, and I have fallen short myself. I'm not pointing fingers, I just feel so heavily grieved in my heart that"having to be right" seems more the precedence here, instead of doing our best to keep God as the director of our paths, whereever that leads each one of us in the end of this bloodbath!!

And to talkintruth...what you said is very true about the minute after we hit the "post" button we cannot take back the words we speak...even if spoken in anger. Thanks for what you shared.

Maria T

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Hey guys.....can't you see that SM is hurting too? Lets not fight with him/her.

The stuff SM says is stuff many of us have heard over the years in raps and mtgs. I always wondered if those closest to P. Stevens wondered what was said about them when they walked away....I don't believe too many were exempt from the nasty gossip.

My mother always said that sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me......I always disagreed with that....trashing someone with nasty words always hurts and does damage. Especially when theres an evil spirit inspiring it.

If you're so doctrinally sound, why are you chiming in now? Do you think duking it out with words will change anything?

I'm not trying to start a fight with any of you but really, todays words have been particularly sharp and hurtful.

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

WWR
I saw you want me to contact you directly , I guess you do not want me to respond on this public board ,you aren't turning into a chicken now are you ,turkey .I do not see a purpose to post more stuff on you unless you insist ,just remember I do know Gabe...........!!
Neil,
what's up, are you turning into a copycat now or should I say copychicken...LET IT GO

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Anonymous (152.163.253.102)
Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:24 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a student at Greater Grace and I've only been here for one year, but even I can see the majority of the people there are brainwashed. It was ridiculous. One day P. Stevens came in to preach to us... To start, he walked in with 3 or 4 pastors crowded around him following him. And when he entered the building everyone stood up and clapped for 3 minutes... I sat down because it was just ridiculous. Then he so-called "preached." It was only for 10 minutes and all he did was name a few scriptures. When he left everyone, again stood up and clapped for what seemed like forever. And when he left the building (the bible class wasn't even over) all the pastors in the room left with him, one of them (P. Baker) with his arm around his shoulder, praising him like he's God. It was sick and all I wanted to do was vomit... Not to mention after Bible class no one could stop talking about how amazing his message was! It was only for 10 minutes! And all it was, was reading scriptures! It truely was sick seeing these people acting like this.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Hey Guys, SM,WWR,NEIL.. take this outside, I feel like I am witnessing barroom brawl. You are grown men, stop acting so silly.

Thank you GGCA student! I also heard the simliar story from my children. I am glad some of our children are using their gifts of discernment. Probably more than we think.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Jack Leoanrd's email is
jleon18_1999@yahoo.com
the space is an underscore

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

Is the purpose of coming together in church to praise God or to praise Carl Stevens? Are the standing ovations for God or Carl Stevens?

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

(68.34.121.13)

You belittle people, bring up things that have nothing to do with change but rather with personal venom.

You act like you know something, and you don't.

You repeat things that anybody could have known or found out by hanging around church, get online and make use of it.

You act like you are in the in, and then you turn smart ass.

You have no clue what my family or what other families have been through.

But you get on here and make off the cuff remarks and think that makes you something special. That makes you a coward.

Your the chicken and so is anybody who thinks change is going to come by hurting other folks. Using this board or any other to hurt somebody so change will come about will do nothing but hinder what many hope for.

Slander in the name of change is still slander.

If you think that your making some good points I sure haven't seen any. Your scared of anything good coming about all of this. Do you honesty think that people like Skip Wood and myself are interested in being made something special out of all of this?


You want people to hurt and frankly that is what a coward is.

You don't have the guts to reveal who you are.

Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Maria T-

"OBVIOUSLY" you have a limited vocabulary!

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

If my memory serves me correctly they were always for Carl Stevens.

Sad but true.

Sha

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Lee,

I see SM is hurting, but letting an abuser or frankly anybody who is more interested in hurting others than helping is not going to do any good.

Let him/her talk about Pastor Wood and Myself if we need to know details that show who is, than its great. We all can grow and be better for it.

I think SM is just trying intentionally to hurt others. Thats it, nothing more.

If SM was for real, then he wouldn't go off the wall like so many posts demonstrate.

At the end of the day you have to wonder what it is that somebody like this wants?

I think they want to destroy what they can.

Neil

[talkintruth (149.174.164.83)]

The ones at GGCA and the ones I saw at GGWO were for Stevens. My child was told, "Stand and give Pastor some praise."

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

All this arguing makes me want to scream! Ahh!

Why can't you guys just stop! Try to step back and look at what your saying and doing. You all
have got your adrenalene so high.

Try positive thinking and speaking. Look beyond, look at the bigger picture. Think of the children; that should change all this arguing. Because there are children reading this!! Come on guys.

Some anger is to be expected but I worry for the teens that are on here. What an example you are setting.

Sha

[wwr (200.117.192.218)]

To: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 03:54 pm

So which is it? You know about me or about my son? What happened with my son was blabbed around, and not by Pastor Stevens, long before you showed up. So if you think you've got something on me, let 'r rip. I'd be careful about messing with my son though because he could take you apart with one hand tied behind his back and wouldn't hesitate to do so, either. Matter of fact, I'd hold his coat while he did it.

For all of you that think that's not "Christian", mayabe you ought stay out of what is a private matter between SM and me. He won't take it off the forum, so I guess you all get to see that he's bluffing and making up stories because he can't back up what he says with truth. In any case, a number of other people's names have been dragged through the mud and no one protested so let SM do it to me if he can. I'm betting he can't.

Pastor Wood

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

Neil,
you had to get it started again didn't you,you are just upset that nobody wants to join your "private board"and now you are throwing a fit. It seems you almost enjoy this type of dialogue.I noticed that also when others questioned you,you went nuts .You seem to have deep emotional problems which you need therapy for.For the sake of yourself and your wife RELAX !!!

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Sha,

This is a public forum. Its free speech.

I have tried everything under the sun to see what good could come with dialog.

If somebody wants to belittle me, or make remarks about my wife, my mental health or for that matter my sex life (maybe I am a lesbian and don't know it yet) I have a right to speak.

Its easy to sling mud when you are hiding behind this internet wall, but some of us have gone the extra mile and tried to do something where Christ could be the focus.

I have children and a wife, and if people think that its ok to say things with the intent to hurt me or my family I had better speak up.

If you want the focus to be on Christ, everybody had better step back and get their focus off other people's mistakes and place them on a real Lord & Master.

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sha is right, take a step back and look at the bigger picture. SM is venting, Sm has anger, SM may be abusive in tone and spirit but SM is also a victim. Neil you also are a victim. WWR you are a victim and maybe do not have full understanding of that truth yet. Maria T. is also a victim. We are all victims! We brought our children in this church and they are victims too. It is an abusive church. We have all been controlled and manipulated. BUT we are also children of God. He can heal and forgive us. The abused and the abusers. We need to forgive each other. We need to focus on healing, understanding and supporting one another. If someone comes on here and vents and spews anger. Take a deep breath, and consider why. We have within us the Holy Spirit, we can be discerning and kind. We can reach out to one another. We need to give Grace. Even to the ones that lash out at us. It is not that hard. We can be gracious and set boundary lines. Stop attacking, if someone does, don't attack back. Let's live the Christian life on this board. Let's seek answers, understanding, dialog on the important stuff. And reach out to the attackers. There is alot of garbage in the church, maligning, backbiting and slander towards individuals. Have we not learned anything about how that destroys? We have much to re-learn, let's start practicing it now.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Neil, I know SM was abusing you but fighting with him isn't going to stop him. It never does. We post on factnet to expose the wrong things. Truths that aren't truth at all. The falsity of some doctrines and practices......lets not give SM the opportunity to do any more harm. Can you imagine what he has suffered to make him do to you what he's done?

That is if SM is a man.....perhaps he's a she!

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

SM,

Thats where you got it wrong.

I never went "nuts" when anybody questoned me.

Its you who is going nuts.

Your scared to death that people will know who you are.

In fact if there is somebody who needs help its you. I got plenty of help thankyou.

Neil

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Lee,

I would agree but then I would have to ask you to do the same for anybdoy else that has been brought up.

Be it Carl Stevens, Paul Stevens, etc.

If it was never about the people and their families than Factnet would not have been needed.

If anything Lee know that I would love to see anybody like this get help.

But I won't let somebody try to hurt somebody here or anywhere that involved my family and give it a pass.


Neil

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

WWR,
tsk tsk tsk
getting really upset,I can only imagine what you would do to lets say team members who would disagree with you !?Why would Gabe defend you after everything you all went through......? The Turkey

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

Ok guys you are right, it is a public forum. I will let you all do whatever needs to be done and keep quiet. Actually I won't keep entirely quiet, I will pray for you all and your families. Who knows what I would do if it was my family. Thank God I was out before I started mine and they will never know of the things I went thru. I would never burden my child with that.

Sha

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Sha,

Your intentions are so beautiful. Nonetheless, do you think our youth will respect phony loyalty OR sincere grieving and going forward out of a destructive situation?

My bet is on the later. I know it must be difficult to hear people, such as myself, vent our anger and confusion. But you and the others reading these posts must realize that some people, who have been injured emotionally and spiritually, in the name of God, may be ready to LOOK at the reality of what's happening at GGWO; young people included! Perhaps it would be best to shelter the youth from such issues. However, I believe it is this very same attitude which prevents "Pastor" from coming forward and owning up to his mistakes. A healing process can only take place where their is honesty and transparency. Please don't silence the voice or plug the ears of our youth at GGWO. They have right to know the issues at hand and make an informed decision. Please don't be like "Pastor" in your leadership style toward the youth at GGWO! It may take a little time; but please be patient and allow everyone, teens...included, to communicate and work through ALL their thoughts and feelings.Even if they seem unspiritual or a poor example!

[sassy1 (152.163.253.102)]

Hey, quit picking on Neil...he's accountable to God and to his family for his personal life--not you people--and remember, he's not the one telling you to submit to him. By the way, I don't know if anyone else is even reading the board anymore, because the last few threads seem to be banter between Neil, Maria T, Sha and Lee, but if Dave is still following, I wrote a response to his question about the "Yahweh" issue.

[talkintruth (152.163.253.102)]

I think teens should be able to post too. I told one of mine that he could post, provided he remained RESPECTFUL to everyone. I think that is an important lesson for youth to learn too. It is okay to vent, but you still vent with a compassionate heart. You still have to stay in the light.

Pastor Wood and Neil, I don't think people are buying into the personal attacks on you. I can only speak for myself, but know that there is compassion for you and you are appreciated. Some might know your vulnerable spots (for parents it is almost certain that we are vulnerable in areas related to our children.) I think some are pushing buttons that they know are easily pushed but I agree with Lee. Certainly they must be hurting too.

Despite the anger that flows at times, I think that if one person finds support through this board in trying to get out from under GGWO, then this board does have a purpose.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Amen and I'd like to apologize for accusing you of being 66. tonight. Evidently someone else has that number this evening.

149.

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

To 4-139-12-183 posting earlier today...

"I" oBVIOUSLY have a limited vocabulary? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Come on out little chicken...state your mind!!!! You obviously need to beat on somebody today, and its my turn so have a go at it.

Maria T

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Can anybody tell me; is it true that the church that Pastor Hadley started in Equator is gone?

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

GGWO appears to be a "male bonding church/cult" whose narcissistic leader; Dr. Carl H. Stevens, Jr. has brain washed its followers.
This man appears to have a narcissitic personality disorder and should be avoided at all costs.
Contact with these "type" of people can change the personalities of their followers.
I speak from experience.

Leadership, such as Stevens and his "groupies", are out to line there own pockets and obtain narcississtic supply (NS) (adulation and the ability to control the follower) at the expense of the "object" (follower).
They care nothing for the person just the ability of this person to supply them with the NS they so desperately require. Followers are "dumped" and "discarded" quickly should they prove inadaquate at providing the NS or a better source of NS shows itself.

How many GGWO body members have felt "discarded" by "Pastor" as he "smoozes" up to some new cute blonde or wealthy benefactor? Huh?

Advice: Research Narcissistic Personality Disorder

P.S. I notice the board has gotten VERY quiet; hummm? Must be that all the readers are at GGWO's church service to hear "Pastors" pearls of wisdom?

Just an idea after all!

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

To 4.139 I know you are right, it has been so long for me and I have forgotten that anger stage and you are right the youth do not need to be sheltered. I do understand because I was also injured emotionally and spiritually too. I stand corrected.

Sha

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Marie T-

What! Did you ACTUALLY write a response to my comment at 6:50 pm? "Obviously" from the sounds of your pontificating I thought you to be an "obviously" LOYAL GGWO Body member. "Obviously" church starts at 7:20 pm on Wednesday nights so maybe you had time to make it after all.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Sha, You're such a good and fair person!
God Bless You my "Cyber Sister in Christ"

149... aka "Bitter n' Sweet Waters"

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

4.139.12.183, I spoke with you directly on this board a few nights ago. How are you? I can see you are still in the anger stage...

I want to know your story. I wish you could understand that you are not the only victim here. Some are still fragile, some do not have their eyes open or their blinders off. Attacking everyone in sight will not heal you. And it could hurt others. GG leaders did not take into consideration of the individuals, let's not be like them. Putting ourselves before anything else. We lack "community" in GG. It is counterfeit Christianity but there is the opportunity to find real support here. You can't put the fire of your anger pointing at those that did not cause the fire. Pouring on the wrong target doesn't make the fire go out.

Listen, my own story is horrendous, I bet if we matched stories I would win. But you do not see me dealing with my pain the way you are. I took my wounds and sought healing, I can help you do the same.

Email me: ggdissident@yahoo.com

[JD Skeet (64.12.116.66)]

I've been reading these posts for about two weeks. My interest is that my family have been involved with the TBS or GGWO for 20 or more years, though I have long since turned my back on Pastor Stevens. Generally, I think what is going on here is healthy. Both GGWO and Pastor Steven should be able to survive the marketplace of ideas, and if not, they should be laid to waste by something better. After people get finished venting and beating their chests I hope they eventually move on with their lives, but I think that this sort of this is part of the process. That said, I have two concerns.

First, don't let people bait you into revealing who you are. This is catharsis. No one needs to know who you are. The warning is that in this world few things stress people out like religion and politics and here we have both. It only takes one wacko lurking, it may be someone that has never went to TBS/GGWO but has some other ax to grind, that could harm someone over something said here. You don't really know who is here or why and you don't know how tightly wound people really are, so be wary of revealing too much or letting people get in your head.

Second, there seems to be a little confusion as to what slander and libel is and isn't. I have seen some libelous things written here. If you did that and you named names, you should stop now. If you are posting anonymously, that only protects you from the wackos, it will not protect you from legal liability for libelous statements made here and the host of this board would probably give you up in a New York minute. Below you will find a pretty good definition of libel and slander. I suggest everyone read it and avoid writing libelous comments in the future. For the record, Pastor Stevens may be a public figure, but everyone else probably isn't.

From www.worddig.com:

Slander and libel

Libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), which is the tort of making a false statement of fact that injures someone's reputation. When the communication is in writing, it is termed "libel". If made via the spoken word, the correct term is "slander". Both acts share a common legal history, although they may be treated differently under modern legal systems. The statement need not be derogatory in itself to be actionable, as where it constitutes invasion of privacy or portrays the person in a false light, as by calling a prominent Democrat a Republican.

Many nations have various civil and criminal penalties for libel and slander, and different conditions for determining whether an offense has occurred. Some legal systems, including some in the United States, require in some situations that the subject of the communication prove, in a civil court, that the defendant made statement with "malice", meaning either believing it was false or with "reckless disregard" for whether it was. There are four categories of statement, however, that are defamatory per se, which means they are so inherently derogatory that a plaintiff need prove only that they were made: Those are statements accusing a person of:

having committed a crime
having a loathsome disease (such as leprosy long ago or AIDS now)
being unchaste (in many jurisdictions this still applies only to females)
being bad at their trade or business
Other systems, such as that of England require only that the statements be false and defamatory (more on English defamation law can be found below.)

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

64.12...

Please refer to Board entitled "Music Ministry at GGWO or Annette's Opportunity to Control" for my response to your e-mail.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Well said JD; thanks!

[c_r_f (141.157.65.42)]

i agree with 64.12

i just wrote on here yesterday about how confused i am and not knowing where to go for help and guidence. and i felt like there were people here that could actually help me..i mean it's a wednesday night, and i'm supposed to be at church, but i'm not because i can't go through this back and forth anymore.

who's right who's not. who do you listen to, who do you trust. am i wrong for coming here for answers..

i just need to retrain my brain. and i'm glad to come here and know that so many people are like me and the few friends i have (acn, sms, lan).

i'm glad to know i'm not alone..this is the only comfort i have these days

thank you to the ones who have replied to me, with encouraging words, and help, especially last night, it really touched me!

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

For Help:

Contact Safe Harbor Christian Counseling

They are very well respected and known counseling organization in Maryland.

Their Telephone Number is 410-893-4600

Their website is http://www.safeharbor1.com/

Their director is Erik L. Sundquist and would be glad to assist anybody from GGWO.

I had a conversation with him tonight and he is trying to setup an appointment with leaders of GGWO for his group to offer services to individuals at GGWO.

Neil Carrick

neil@1works.net

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

What a day! I fully expected to read the next post with something like this:
“You wanna take this outside? I dare you to meet me outside!”
Chicken? Turkey? And what’s this, “He could take you apart with one hand tied behind his back….Matter of fact, I'd hold his coat while he did it.” The apostle Paul held a coat once also, which didn’t turn out to be such a good decision.
Didn’t I read something in the Scriptures about pastors being examples to the flock of God?
In my school, when students make verbal threats, they are suspended for 2 weeks and sent to a special school for conflict mediation.

Regarding spiritual warfare: if you are still fragile (from past battles, wounds, hurts, abuse) don’t try to take a leadership role on the board. Just share your story and listen. We’ll support you. When we hear you stoop to name-calling and threats, we know you’re over-extended.

To AJL (68.34.67.195) at 11:18 a.m.
I’d like to pursue that thought with you (“feeling like I have been exposed to much more sin at ggwo than as an unsaved person in the world”).
Lee dropped my email address above.
Jack

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

CRF, I spoke with you last night ..I posted those email addresses for you. I can include mine now also.
ggdissident@yahoo.com I hope to hear from you!

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

4.139-God bless you too!

Sha

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

To: 4-139-12-183 posting at 7:48 p.m.

Re: What! Did you ACTUALLY write a response to my comment at 6:50 pm? "Obviously" from the sounds of your pontificating I thought you to be an "obviously" LOYAL GGWO Body member. "Obviously" church starts at 7:20 pm on Wednesday nights so maybe you had time to make it after all. ........................."


"I'm so glad you're a part of the family of God...".....remember that song ???????

Thanks too for letting me know what time church started tonight...I mean with my limited vocabulary and all, I could have missed reading that in the bulletin. Since I hardly get out to the services, the time could have gotten changed. How thoughtful of you to think of reminding me!! So sorry you couldn't get there yourself, I saw you were rather busy creating a new forum message board -- you know, the one new page to now trash the music ministry of the church. Geez you've had a busy day now haven't you? Gosh...and even then you thought enough of me to remind me what time the church started.

Is this pontification enough? Or would you think you could seemingly agitate or provoke me to wrath so I would lose my cool and then react in an inappropriate manner and tell you to you "f" off or something???? Too bad, it didn't work. I guess my pontification crown is still upon my unworthy head. Thanks for the testing. I'll note it in my victory log at the pontification bureau."

By the way, since God obviously has now delegated you the job of the GGWO church attendance police, mark me absent for this evening. Sorry, I won't have a note from my mother for you either. She's occupied at the moment shining my pontification crown for the morning session on the forum.

Have a great night!!! Don't ya just love the body of Christ?????? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wwr (200.117.192.218)]

Regarding SM from Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 05:41 pm:

Well folks, it appears I was right after all. SM knows nothing more than what he has been repeating like a broken record, ie, I'm the butcher of South America and he knows all about my son. Funny that he's never posted on this forum yet gets attacked and no one seems to take notice and rebuke SM. Gee, do I detect a double standard? Everybody else's kids get, "It's terrible how they were abused by GGWO." How come mine don't?

So SM, go pump your ego somewhere else. Unless you've got something really juicy to share with us, you're on my ignore list.

As for you Jack, as I recall, Jesus drove some poor folks out of the temple with a whip, and Paul held the coats of those who were stoning one who had told the truth, not one who has consistently lied. Could this be another double standard? It's ok to be indignant as long as the recipient is someone who is defending GGWO and not ok if the recipient is attacking GGWO or one of it's members or one who doesn't even go to church there due to work related travel? Huh. 'Splain to me how that works, will ya. Besides, I said it was between me and SM because he rejected the offer to discuss it off forum.

Pastor Wood

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

To CRF

I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time with things. I too am here to help you. I'm glad the ladies had you write to Karen Duhamel, I keep in touch with her as well via email. She's a beautiful godly lady.

I'm here in Baltimore too if you want to talk. I understand everything you are going through and my heart goes out to you. The pain you were in last night was so obvious. I'm sorry I didn't write you then, I did pray for you and I am still praying for you also.

Please email me at "gracekid2@aol.com" -- I think I know who you are and I won't reveal your ID to anybody. Yes I have challenged people on the board into putting their names with their posts, but those that have communicated with me I have kept their identity private to honor their wishes. I've been through a lot of what you posted and I believe I can be of help to you if you would let me.

If you do email, put in the subject line of the email that you are CRF from the forum...otherwise I probably would skip over your email thinking it was spam mail because I
wouldn't recognize your email address.

Take care. I'm here if you need me.
Maria T.

I hope you will write to me. Or, if you want, you can IM me if you have the AOL instant messenger. "gracekid2" is my screen name.

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

I say we put Sm, WWR, Neil, Maria T, and the guy who started all the other boards onto a boat and push them out to sea...

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

To JD Skeet

Thanks for what you shared. I have some serious questions for you after reading your posting. Could you please email me at "gracekid2@aol.com" so I can contact you privately? Thank you.

Maria T

[JD Skeet (205.188.117.20)]

Maria:

Sorry. Can't do it. I've decided to take my own advice. I'm staying way above the fray and won't engage with anyone privately. You can post your questions, but there's not guarantee that I'll answer them.

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

I still can't get over how majorly GROUNDBREAKING this board is!!! Think of all the years that So MANY folks suffered in SILENCE and loneliness as they came under the "control" and downright junk taught at the ministry!...We can see God is a faithful God to keep so many of us still close by His side....
I went to church tonight- a wonderful healthy church- Oh, they ARE out there, people!! Though it is STILL hard to completly feel part of its whole sweet spirit- I still feel a little nagging weirdness inside as if I am a freak or irreparably handicapped spiritually in some vague way...
Jack Leonard, thanks so much for writing here about how the transition has been for you.. I would love to know more from your wife on how it has been for her through these years since TBS...

Maybe we could all share a little more about THE WAY OUT for those reading that need that vision and a few roadsigns marking paths to deliverance...

[wwr (200.117.192.218)]

To the poster from Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 10:17 pm

Thanks for finally honestly expressing the heart of the majority on this forum.

What a breath of fresh air.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

JD, There are experts in this field that feel the only way to make a real impact on GGWO is through lawsuits. What is your opinion of that? I found your posting very interesting. Is there recourse for those that have been slandered and had their families split apart by the slander?

[Pam P. (12.77.54.178)]

Maria, After reading your posts I think you are bi-polar or something. You swing from talking about vomiting on people to being there if they need you. And to your May 26 12:13pm post to SM, you say "...but since you hear from your father the devil and have the liberty to now be the accuser of the brethren, you have nothing to speak in regards to me." First you ACCUSE him of having the devil as his father and then call HIM the accuser! Are you completely nuts? You are so hypocritical it is ridiculous!
Now before you go all wacky satan on me, let me say I'm sure you can be a very nice person. But I think it is so wrong for you to go on the attack of people like you do and go biserk with your spewing vomit stuff. Does that, in your opinion, reflect the nature of Christ? How can you justify saying those things? Talkin' Truth cited YOUR posts as the no. two reason she was pulling her kids out of GGWO. Don't you want to vomit on her, too?
And so what if people laugh at you because your fat! People laugh at each one of us for something. If we are not fat, we're ugly, short, walk funny, talk funny, have weird families and so on. Let's grow up. We're not in high school anymore.
Pam Purvis

[JD Skeet (205.188.117.20)]

The point of the law is to make people whole when they have suffered damage at the hand of another. Do you really think the law can make anyone whole that has been damaged at WWGO? Better to rely on God to make one whole in this case, I think.

As for GGWO, perhaps this is a matter for the Maryland Attorney General? It seems that history teaches us that civil litigation has not had a great impact on GGWO.

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

JD...no problem with what you posted in reply to my asking you to email me. Keep my addy, if you change your mind I won't refuse your email.

What I have to ask you doesn't involve my filing a lawsuit against GGWO. I have no reason to do so. Even after today's libelous statements said about me by SM, I would prefer to leave him in Gods hands...even though factnet would give him up in a NY heartbeat as you said.

I was looking for an private answer to a friend who emailed me tonight after reading your post. There is sufficient evidence of libel from things people posted here naming my friend and most certainly written character trashing. One thing you may want to consider with people here that are hurting and have had libelous things said about them is that they may prefer to deal with you privately rather than having more steak fed to the roaring lions.

I cut and pasted what you wrote and sent it to them via email so they have a copy of it. Perhaps they may decide to post themselves in regards to what has been done to them via this board. Its really a shame that things had to come to this point.

Maria T

[Pam P. (12.77.54.178)]

Oh, please. That post is so full of crap.
If you can't take the heat, honey, get out of the kitchen.
Pam Purvis

[bob (66.30.49.45)]

GO to sleep, you guys, it's late!.. :-)

[Pam P. (12.77.54.178)]

Concerning the whole libel and slander issue, you have to prove damage in order to collect anything. Let's get real.
Seems like SM is hitting someone's nerves. What's the matter, doesn't he have the right to post as much as anyone else does? After all, if someone doesn't like what he writes, they can skim by his posts (I've heard that before). They don't ~have~ to read them.
Maria, you and your buddy Loretta are the most slanderous of all of us here. At You attack and defame people's character like no other, and worse, you do it in the name of Christ. At least SM never claimed to do that.
Again, you are such hypocrites.
Pam Purvis
HMMM - Maria, I think you slandered me by talking to Pastor R. about me. Perhaps I'll contact a lawyer...

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

Gee Pam thanks so much for your spiritual assessment that is so obviously way off. Its funny how just like Pastor Wood said -- someone who posts in defense of the things that are right gets kicked down and told to get on a boat to go out to sea. And, to quote Loretta...whose rhetorical posts I miss, she hit the mark on many issues she addressed...its now your turn to shut up.

"SM" attacked me. I answered his post. It wasn't me who made the weight comments in regards to me, re-read his posting from the middle of the night last night, in regards to my "fat ass" being at Pastors car and how security will remove it next time its there!! You're "rebuking" the wrong person here!!! He's the one who needs to grow up...besides yourself of course.

I would watch who you call bipolar Pam, its a character slam...but then again since you are so familiar with the term, I think its because its been told to you personally. There's not a thing wrong with me.

By the way "Truth" said it was my posts AND Pastor Wood...see how easy it is for you to falsely represent something....hmmm...I wonder where that came from...

Sorry to disappoint you that I didn't tear "Truth" to pieces, I'm sure you were just lurking in the background ready with your judicial robe on to try my case here in the public forum. When the jury reaches a verdict, spare me the details ok?

And from now on Pam, take this off the forum ok?
You seemingly have a spiteful attitude towards me, yet if Neil replied to SM like I did (where the bible says that liars and maligners of people's character are of their father the devil)...you would have covered it over because he's your friend. I tried to be a friend to you and help you out, but you don't want people's help here on the forum, you are too busy attacking people's characters in a more subtle way than SM was yesterday with mine....Pastor Woods and Neils.

I haven't decided yet if you are just biblically ignorant or totally deceived. Someone that tears down a person in the manner that SM did to me, Neil and Pastor Wood -- spreading LIES is someone that listens to their father the devil. Sorry if you can't handle it Pam, maybe its you that is in need of psychoanalysis, not me. Read your bible, its in there.

Like Loretta said, skip over my posts. Do not post one more reference in regards to me again. I've had it with your snotty remarks. You don't want help you only want to start problems. If anybody needs to grow up, its you. That was part of your problems here before when you worked at Fellowship Hall. I won't lower myself to SM's standards and repeat what the whole GGWO body probably knows already about you and Simon because I don't think it is the right thing to do.

Oh I do thank you for once again being my personal judge and jury before God. I am quite clear as to where I stand biblically, and I don't have to justify my standing before you or anyone else here. Like I said in the post Pam, if I wanted to be hateful to you I could trash you like SM did to me but what good would it do????? I posted that I knew the reason why you left GGWO. I also posted that I tried to intervene with Pastor Robinson on your behalf, because I truly believed with my heart that you were hurting. I also stated in that post today that I probably shouldn't have posted that I had attempted to go to Pastor Robinson while he was in Pastor's car, but I had no other way to reach him, and helping you was foremost on my mind. So stop looking at me as your enemy ok?

And by the way, if Neil had said that "SM" was of the devil....for spreading lies and visciously stating what he did today on the post, you would have had a whole other opinion, and you would have never told him he was bipolar and also a hypocrite. If anyone here is a hypocrite Pam, its you.

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

Dear Pam. The only words I got to say to Pastor Robinson was in my asking him if he remembered you and he said he did. I asked him if he would be willing to talk to you and he said yes. At that point he backed pastor's car out of the parking place and left. Go build your slander case on that one. Talk about people being childish!!

You really need healing Pam. Its not slanderous to reach out to help someone. I don't slander people "in the name of God." You are entitled to your opinion. Like I said, half the people posting here want healing and want to be helped, and then there are others like yourself who would rather stab at people just like the person that started that forum page now going after the music ministry at the church. You don't want a healing, you just want to cause strife and discord and take away the whole point of this forum.

I told you before I will stand up for what is right. You aren't God so quit acting like Him.
Whats wrong Pam, you can dish it out but you can't take it???? You're the one who can't stand the heat in the kitchen by the way.

Cordell, Jack Leonard, Pastor Wood and Jack Brown have a good grasp of the Word of God. Even though we don't agree with some of our posts, we have a healthy respect for each other.
Ask one of them about liars being of their father the devil. It would make for an interesting change of topic around here, your court trials would be ended soon.

Maria T

The point you missed was that someone actually cared for your well being.

[Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)]

To Anon. (64.12.116) 5-24-04, *:45 a.m.

Why is it that if someone leaves Greater Grace, it is automatically assumed that the church is at fault somehow and not the person? Or why isn't it assumed that people move away to a higher paying job? Of if they reach a certain age perhaps they retire to Florida or Arizona? I am just wondering why it seems that something sinister is seen in the fact that a person or couple is no longer at a church?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Why is it when someone leaves Greater Grace, their character is automatically assassinated? Why is it assumed that they are "off"? I am just wondering why it seems that something sinister is seen in the fact that a person or couple is no longer at a church?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

To Jessica Patton: Excellent point about the groundbreaking nature of this board. With 4500 posts, some of which has been extremely nasty, some of which has been questionable as to it's importance on this forum. A closer look however, reveals the cry of people who have been bound-up in a closed isolated system that has been to many, very abusive. Mixed-in also you will find GGWO loyalist masquerading as would-be dissenters. Then there are those who have taken to picking personal fights, some of whom hopefully one day will realize that they have allowed the spiritual bullying tactics of the "ministry" to be "reproduced" in their lives.

God bless you all today. The truth will prevail.

[JD Skeet (152.163.253.102)]

Um... Pam and Maria, you missed my point. I posted so that people would know the consequences of what they were doing so that they could restrain themselves. Where people are arguing in person, most people understand the boundaries, like you can't pop someone in the nose when you disagree with them, but in chatrooms and message boards there seem to be no boundaries and no consequences. I was trying to let people know that there are legal consequences. I did not post the law,BTW, I posted a lay definition explaining the law.

Pam: Why are you giving out legal advice? Are you a lawyer? I looked up your name in Martindale and you were not listed. Perhaps you are not using your real name here. If you are a lawyer, how do you feel comfortable opining on the state of Maryland common law regardng libel and slander here? Maryland common law does not find that in cases of per se libel the damages are presumed?