GGWO Main Board Thread 9

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Paranoia has surrounded the life of Carl H. Stevens. For years I have lived thinking that if I left this ministry I would be off with God. Pastor Stevens taught that and enforced and re-enforced that throughtout the years. I have spent hours repenting for the thoughts of brothers and sisters who have left and I believed a lie about their lives. If I saw them I viewed them in such a contemptable manner that I refused to even listen to a word that they said. I even went as far one day as to pick a fight with an X-Pastor of this ministry. Because he was "off" I felt I had the right to pick a fight with him. What foolishness, what pride on my part. That is just one of my many experiences at GG.

It is the tactical approach of an abusive system to manipulate a controled environment. The leavers, dissenters, the disgruntled, the abused and the disallusioned must be disqualified for the sake of the image of the ministry. The finished work and unconditional love can't be allowed to extend to them. This would jeopardize it's operation.

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

Loretta: You ask a valid question. Perhaps you have not been around long enough to have been exposed to the subtle teaching that once you are in ggwo there is no getting out - to do so would be to leave your call and to leave the geographical will of God for your life? Retire to Florida? You could serve 40 years in this church and then be accused of having "your true heart revealed" if you retired to Florida. You wouldn't even be given a goodbye or thankyou card never mind party! I know I sound harsh, but unfortunately it is the grim reality!

[Jack Brown (141.157.87.134)]

JD Skeet:

Interesting input from a legal perspective. Do you share that to caution those that might step over the boundary of venting versus libel? Please clarify because I'm wondering if your words about venting and moving on could be interpreted to mean that you think some should leave the board or at least stop posting.

Also, while you have your source handy, I'm interested in the what the law states and what the case histories in MD/US might be of an organization that's a corporation/"church" that solicits money presented as a believer's tithe/offering responsibility and uses the money for purposes outside what a believer can read in the bible about how that money might be spent. Fraud possibly? Just wondering. Please comment.

Thanks much,

Jack

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

I have been told the only thing that would work with these corrupt leaders IS a lawsuit.

This came from an expert that was at first very supportive of resolution.

And now concludes that these leaders need a 2x4 of a lawsuit between the eyes.

Maybe as a group we should start exploring these options??

[JD Skeet (152.163.253.102)]

Jack:

I would not opine as to whether people should leave the board or stop posting, that is solely their choice and my feelings have no relevance. However, I would hope that people choose to exercise self-restraint when they do post.

Jack, there's no magic source. There's hours and hours of legal research to answer complex legal questions like the ones you posed, and I don't have the time or inclination. But the Internet is a wonderful thing because now lay people can engage in self-help regarding legal matters. Start with Findlaw and Lexisone.com and knock yourself out. Watch out though, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Nevertheless, what I really think that is if people choose to engage in litigation over matters at GGWO they should be very certain they are committed to years of litigation and to not being able to resolve things in their own lives until the litigation is over. Not to mention the cost of such litigation and the stress of defense against possible counter claims. That's a big price to pay for an uncertain outcome.

I think matters like this are far better left to the State. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Here Caesar's is that nifty tax-exempt status and the laws regarding its maintenance. I think letting the Attorney General handle situations like this is a better call than individual litigation. That office is in the position to opine as to whether the law has been followed by GGWO or not.

[Pam P. (12.77.47.120)]

Maria, who the hell made you the board moderator? You make me so mad, talking about what my problems are and I don't even know you or haven't said even a "hello" to you in probably 5 years. You talk about me acting like God? As you said, I, just as much as anyone else (EVEN SM), have a right to post our opinions here. If you don't like it, too damn bad. Understand, I am not defending Sm in any way, just his right to post.

Greater Grace has many wonderful people in it that remain my friends - and all of them would refute your maligning words about my character (don't be surprised if you are approached and rebuked by some who do personally know me). But unfortunately, is it also full of people like you who presume to go on a personal attack (in the name of God no less) because I dare tell that I think you are a hypocrite.

Your comments about me "That was part of your problems here before when you worked at Fellowship Hall. I won't lower myself to SM's standards and repeat what the whole GGWO body probably knows already about you and Simon because I don't think it is the right thing to do.” This is your unsuccessful attempt to cleverly hide in a cloak of caring righteousness your predictable GGWO-like behavior concerning "ex-members". Thank you for actually confirming what some have been saying all along about how the people that leave GGWO are maligned and how their character is assassinated. BTW, I honestly don’t give a rat's ass about what you, the "GGWO body", or what anyone else thinks of me. The only opinions I care about concerning myself are those who come from the people I respect. So please go and read what I HAVE posted on the other boards before you continue your malicious attack on my character about what I post on other boards.

And what legal advice am I giving? That one has to prove damages in order to collect monies? Yep, I'ld have to be a big bad lawyer like you to have the right to say that.

Pam Purvis

[Anonymous (200.117.193.2)]

I have been so wounded, I can't even begin to express what I'm going through. The worst is no one here cares. Everybody just fights and no one cares how about the pain I'm suffering. I'm so confused. Somebody told me this site was for people who had been wounded, but no body cares about how I've been hurt so I guess I need to go somewhere else.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

I care. I haven't posted for awhile, but I am here. Please e-mail me: duhamelkm@comcast.net.

-Karen

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

200.117 - what have you posted before? What are your issues? I have found that just reading the posts is very helpful - possibly someone here has already spoken about some of the issues you face. After you've read the posts maybe you'll see a name/e-mail of someone who you believe can relate to you and you can contact them. I have only contacted one person from this board who I felt could answer some of my more specific questions. For the most part the board has served as a place to hear both (or dozens ) sides of the story and then let the Holy Spirit teach you what is the important information for you to glean. You will find that there are definitely people here that want to help and will be available to talk. If you can be more specific about what you went through and how you are hurting, and if it's an area that I think I can lend any wisdom to, I will be happy to talk to you. AJL

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

I care also. I also had wounds, scars, bruises, but God is healing me. We can all help each other. GGdissident@yahoo.com

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.141)]

JD Skeet:

Thank you very much. That's how I would have answered too...for the most part.

Jack

[Anonymous (200.117.193.2)]

They said things against me and against my kids. I can't believe they would do that. They really don't practice what they preach.

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

Who said things? Pastors or other congregation members? Are you an active person in the ministry and longtimer or are you new? I guess I still don't understand where you are coming from and how I can help? I'm not ready to give my phone/e-mail out. If you haven't done so already, contact someone on this board who has provided their information. People like the Browns and the Byrnes have had things said about them and their kids too. Why not start there? AJL

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

AJL, You can set up an alternate email account on yahoo and keep your identity private. I have read your posts and I am sure you could be a support to anyone who reaches out. GGD

[Anonymous (80.221.116.96)]

This person 200.117.193.2 posts from Argentina.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Why would you expose this person?

[Anonymous (80.221.116.96)]

I'm sorry!! I didn't mean anything bad. I should not have done that. I thought it would be easier to relate when you knew he/she was not in Baltimore. But it was a mistake, I apologize!

[Maria T (70.16.17.80)]

Pam you have done nothing but start this strife that now exists between us when all I did initially was to try to reach out a hand to you of help. I could care less if you call me a hypocrite, but I am not going to sit and let you verbally berate me and then do nothing about it.

So its ok for you to vent your frustrations, and say that you're ****ed off and don't give a rats ass as to how people see you, but anyone else on here that may also feel some kind of frustration on their part gets gunned down by you. Take the blinders off Pam, ok?

People here only wanted to help you. Me, Neil, Pastor Wood...and even Loretta if you would have received our help. You can think and say what you please, and so can we. It isn't going to get you any closer to getting healed. The rage and anger inside of you is blatently obvious. Use me as your punching bag if it makes you feel better. So go ahead and say I wear only a "cloak of caring righteousness." Like I said, thank you again for being my personal judge and jury here on this forum. Its great that you get to seemingly decide who is or isn't a hypocrite here. Truth is, all you want to do is bicker and argue and as of this point, you can go for it, because I am no longer going to acknowledge your carnal outbursts anymore.

I asked you yesterday to take this disagreement off the forum for the sake of the others here that want to be ministered to and healed. And you refused. Your dissention will now be one sided, your fight will be all by yourself.

[Jack Brown (151.196.17.22)]

These are the words of William Law about himself and his writings. He was a man most learned and eloquent...

"You may perhaps ask why I go on writing books myself if there is but one true and divine teacher. I answer, though there is but one bridegroom that can furnish the blessing of the marriage feast, yet His servants are sent out to invite the guests. This is the unalterable difference between Christ's teaching and the teaching of those who only publish the glad tidings of Him. They are not the bridegroom and therefore do not have the bridegroom's voice. They are not the light, but only sent to bear witness of it. And as the Baptist said, 'He must increase, but I must decrease'; so every faithful teacher saith of his doctrine, it must decrease and end as soon as it had led to the true Teacher.

All that I have written for near thirty years has been only to show that we have no master but Christ, nor can have any living divine knowledge but from His holy nature born and revealed in us."

...but most of all, a man most humble.

Jack

[wwr (200.117.193.2)]

Hahahahahahaha. This is sooooo funny I'm almost dying laughing. You all automatically assumed I was speaking about people in GGWO who have "hurt me" and said bad things about me and my kids. Hahahahahahahaha. It was THOSE ON THIS FORUM WHO ATTACK GGWO who have had such a venemous attitude and who can't see the double standard. OK to hurt if you're against GGWO but those for GGWO are REALLY BAD BAD PEOPLE and should be shipped out to sea in a leaky raft.

And I didn't even have to cloak my IP to trap you in your own faulty logic.

Please forgive me for being sooooo deceptive. I'm sure that everyone on the forum will now live in emotional trauma for weeks. Hahahahahaha.

Pastor Wood

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

WWR:
what you just did back fired, you know. readers had the opportunity to read the responses and know there are many of us here that want to help others unshakle from false teaching so they can go on with the Lord in a healthy relationship with their new (healthy) churches.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Who from GG defenders has written on this forum seeking help? We have reached out to those who ask for it. I don't see you asking?? That's just plain weird pretending to be hurt. Maria T. has been defended by both sides. And 4.139, has been corrected a number of times for her angry targeting. This is not a game P.Wood. There are real people that have real hurts, whether you believe that or not. God attempted to help you remove your blinders. But keep wearing them, wear them as every good man and woman at GG has walked out the door. There is serious problems at GG, there is corruption that you refuse to look at. Fine, don't! But don't play games with wounded sheep. Even if you do not agree, where is your pastor's heart? It reveals to the watching world that GG leaders not only wound but also taunt the wounded. Show me the nature of Christ in that.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

wwr:
You just gave us a good example of how many men with the title "Pastor" have treated those 'beneath' them.

You have revealed who and what you are. Hopefully, you will change.

Your complaints are unfounded. There is no double standard here.

We have defended you and Maria against the verbal attacks of SM, when we saw that SM had sunk to an all time low, even when we don't agree with either of you.

You just went even lower.

[wwr (200.117.193.2)]

To: Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 01:49 pm

You, like so many others here miss the point. The point is, according to you, the only one's "doing anything" are those who are attacking GGWO from the outside. You are completely ignorant of what I or anyone else may be doing on the inside or off this forum, because, obviously, if we were of God, we would leave. The point is, it's ok to say all matter of garbage and drag up the past about men of God who are still in GGWO but don't even dare to get offended by what "the wounded sheep" say, because that proves you are evil and only want to hurt them more.

You judge me as having blinders on, but I can't dare to say a single word to challenge anything said on this forum as being an exageration, misrepresentation, or flat out lie or I'm obviously hiding from the truth.

You hide behind an IP number and shoot freely at whoever, but if I, using my name find a problem with anything said, I can count on someone attacking my character and motives.

The point is, no matter how you cut it, it's a double standard.

And I *will* continue to play games with you until you decide to impose the same rules for everyone.

Pastor Wood

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

Wow, everyone! Scary isin't it! What a perfect example, not much needs to be said. Thanks "pastor" Wood. From all us evil,exagerating, misrepresenting liars.

Sha

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

I have had enough of this mess. With all the thousands of posts, I can no longer keep track of who is who anymore. One person after another just vents what ever they want. No one including those who give their names are in any way accountable to give factual information. I think most people here have an agenda and it has little to do with promoting the gospel or healing a church. You who say you want healing, you need to find a way to police this board and keep to a high standard. As it stands now, all I read is empty debate over non-issues. The occasional substantive, rational post is lost in the confusion. The character assassination the church allegedly engages in is nothing compared to what I have read here against those who seem to be trying for healing. Someone said that a tactic of abusive churches is to discredit the accusers, but I think most here have discredited themselves far more than anyone else could ever do.

If you have been hurt, tell it, but tell your own story and stop speculating about things when you were not there and do not have all the facts.

I do not want to know your opinion of church doctrine backed up by a few or even a few hundred out of context quotes. When a man has preached tens of thousands of sermons, someone could make an unlimited number of accusations against his doctrine if he looks hard enough.

My opinion of the church is irrelevant since it is based on my own experience. My experience tells me that I deserve to burn in Hell for eternity. The Word of God tells me that my sins were paid for by the Blood of the Lamb. Which should I believe. Aren’t both true? I will take the mercy seat, thank you. If a pastor says something bad about me, should I hold the church accountable and try to get him fired or should I hold the person responsible and deal with him directly? Maybe God allows me to get offended so I do NOT forget I serve and follow HIM and not people.

When it comes to the church, I will judge by the fruit, not a few dozen disgruntled people, and to me it does not matter if your complaints are legitimate, mostly because I have no way of knowing whether your complaints are true or not. That is between you and whoever offended you and God. If I have a legitimate question about the church, I will ask those who know the answers and are responsible for the ministry like Pastor, Pastor R, Dr. Lewis or Pastor Paul. Why? Because I want answers, not opinions. You people who think you will have some sort of spell cast on you by talking directly to the leadership need to grow up. This irrational fear did not come from God or the ministry. We do have a constitutional right to express our opinions, but we do not have a Biblical right.

We cannot judge righteous judgement without all the facts. Repeating what we heard is gossip. What obligation do I have to believe what you tell me happened to you unless you have witnesses who can verify the veracity of your story? Am I wrong to choose not to believe you? What if your story seems to fit into a pattern of similar stories? Again, who is to say that the similar stories are true? Are there witnesses? Am I burying my head in the sand because I refuse to believe a series of unverifiable stories? If one or two of the stories is true and verified, does that obligate me to believe the rest? I judge on a case by case basis and I have yet to see a pattern. I think that, before God, I am obligated to NOT believe a story unless it is verified by eye-witnesses to be true. That throws out at least 75% of all accusations I have read here. Like everyone here, I am a sinner, and I know in my daily life how easy it is to misjudge people. I recently had the occasion to work with a woman who was very inconsistent in her work habits. After a while, it started to bother me and I thought less of her. Well it turns out that she had serious health problems, had financial problems and was in the middle of a custody battle with her x over her son. I judged her without all the facts. What was it about me that made me judge her character negatively first instead of thinking the best and investing in her and maybe helping her instead of judging her? It just seemed natural. But I was so wrong. I think it is a natural tenancy for many of us to believe the worst of people. I had to teach my kids to be truthful. They already knew how to lie. I had to teach them to be happy. They already knew how to be sad… My point is that if I know how vulnerable I am to misjudge people, why should I trust unproven stories from other people, esspecially people I do not know.

[Sha (64.12.116.66)]

To 68.33 if you think you are going to get the truth and no opinions from Pastor, Pastor R. Dr. Lewis of Pastor Paul you are kidding yourself. They are human too.

Not trying to be mean, just honest.

Sha

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Sha,

My point is that I will go to the source and not to a third party.

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

I don't see how any healing of anything can come out of people who turn on each other on a dime. what I see is people tearing each other down on both sides. I don't see God working here but I do see Satan at play.

D.A

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Woodsy, Woodsy, Woodsy:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave..."

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

DA
If we are going to have an open board, where anyone from anywhere, at any point in their life can post with freedom, then I think we need to police ourselves. I also think that what wwr did required a rebuke....thats why I spoke up. It's the same reason I spoke up yesterday when SM said something uncalled for.

I kindly disagree with you. I see that God is very much at work here. I agree with you that satan is indeed playing around, or at least trying.

[Anonymous (64.26.65.85)]

Cordell alias jim faucett,

Thought you got lost man. Just one question guy. Is it 3 times or 4 you been married and divorced? Just curious ya know. No bad blood entended.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

To 68.33
As with any internet board, you pretty much have to separate the worthwhile stuff from the garbage. This is a good place to attempt to get folks still inside GGWO to wake up and smell the coffee. Think about it, if you're inside GGWO and your pastor has just declared everything on this site as "100 percent" Satanic--is he doing that to protect you or himself? Is he doing what he has always done to anyone who'd attempt to call him into accountability? The guy has such an armed gestapo around him you couldn't get near enough to hin ever to do it any other way than from here. It's not like you can walk up to the pulpit and ask for a minute of their time. Carl Stevens has been perpetrating error and behaving badly for over thirty years. It is more than time to make that known.

As far as prooftexting goes, see the earlier discussion I had with P.Wood and his stand on Rom.11:29. GGWO is famous for prooftexting and building psychobabble doctrines from a single passage, i.e. listen to Grace Hour archived program from Mon. May 17 and Carl's message titled "Cognitive Dissonance and the History of Adam," for a good example of this. The Mormons and JWs, Muslims, Bhuddists, and other cults have been around and have preached loads of messages and have been "apparently" blessed too. Is this a sign that God is with them or proof that the "rain falls on the just and unjust?"

somebonus@yahoo.com

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

I agree with you Lee that God is at work here. I also think that satan will throw everything he has at the people who are reaching out because he wants to prevent any and all healing. He is the father of lies and will do all he can to keep the truth from being heard. That is why we all just need to put on the armor! God is so faithful!

Also ----Gail----I tried to answer your email about GGCA, but I don't know if you got the email or not. A message bounced back to me because it didn't recognize my email address. If you got it - great. If you didn't just email again and I'll send the info.
Thanks,
TalkinTruth

[wwr (200.117.193.2)]

Lee,

Just one question, Lee. Why was my using an anonymous posting to point up what I think is a double standard lower than what SM said about me and others? Better yet, why was it lower than what your husband said to dredge up something about another man?

I am really having a hard time trying to figure out how you think.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify it.

Oh, one other thing that I might point out. I can sign a post with anyone on this list's name as someone else proved. I've also explained that there is available software that allows a person to use whatever IP they want to use to post here, so in reality, we don't know who posts what. Welcome to the Internet.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

wwr,

You and the other GGWO defenders frequently make reference to people dragging up the past.

Most of this stuff is still going on in the PRESENT!

Most of this stuff that happened in the PAST was allowed to happen because of the way GGWO is run in the PRESENT. Pretending that this stuff never happened allows spiritual abuse to continue. If the things you talk about had been properly addressed by GGWO leadership in the first place, GGWO wouldn't be where it is right now.

To this day, at best all you or some of the other GGWO defenders will say is that maybe a few members have been hurt. At no time have you said that maybe, just maybe, GGWO/Carl Stevens has made a mistake or is mistaken in their doctrine. I would think that even if you don't think GGWO is doing anything wrong, you and the other leadership of GGWO (especially Carl Stevens) would say "our church, its doctrine, and its finances are a totally open book, ready for inspection by anyone". I have seen absolutely ZERO evidence of any sort of openness.

I have been told many times in my life to "learn from my mistakes". If I never acknowledge that I made a mistake in the first place, how can I learn from it and not repeat that mistake in the future? And if someone is "calling" me on something that I have supposedly done to them, I will at least make an attempt to show them that I didn't do what they accuse me of. I am not so filled with pride and self rightiousness that I would say that any critic of me is insane, beneath my consideration or a "devil worshipper". If, after opening myself up and stating my case, people continue to criticize, then it's their problem, not mine.

The leadership of GGWO, especially Carl Stevens, seems to be filled to overflowing with PRIDE. I don't care if Carl Stevens feels that this board or anyone critical of GGWO is "satanic garbage". If he was TRULY a pastor, he would would address what's going on. Personally. From the pulpit. There are people hurting, angry and dissillusioned. He ought to address the issues.

It would be easy for him to say FROM THE PULPIT why he continues to allow standing ovations, even though he supposedly doesn't like it.

He should explain FROM THE PULPIT why church finances are nobody's business as long as the tithes keep coming. He may have a perfectly valid reason for doing so. He could also state FROM THE PULPIT that tithe money has NEVER been used to settle any sort of lawsuit. Or maybe it has.....

He should explain FROM THE PULPIT what "marking" is. And then he should say FROM THE PULPIT why it's wrong or right.

My experiences with GGWO have convinced me that a lot of the abuses that go on at GGWO are real. NOT WHAT SOMEONE TOLD ME. NOT WHAT I READ ON THIS BOARD. I have experienced these things first hand!

I don't think any of this stuff will ever be addressed. All the GGWO defenders are after (at least by what they post here) are interested in is "healing", "restoration", and "reconcilliation". In other words, going back to the status quo and sweeping all this stuff back under the rug, where it belongs.

The "defend-at-all-costs" GGWO folks remind me of an abused wife or child. Just like you see on "Cops", there the wife or child is, maybe with a black eye or a bloody nose or welts on their back. The police want to arrest the abusive husband. And the wife or child gets upset, saying "he's a good man! Nothing happened!" And so the abuse continues.

You know what? People get the church they ask for. I have no idea of who is going to heaven or hell (except me!). I wonder if any of the GGWO faithful will be surprised when they don't see Carl Stevens standing by the Bema Seat when they die.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

I am not that easily baited.

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

Lee,

I was wondering how long it would take someone to come back at me after I posted that. I don't think you broke the record though.

I don't think insulting a person's appearence size or family or listing their sins, is a work of God. Sorry respectfully disagree with you there. Satan is enjoying this far to much. Maybe someone with good intentions saw this as a way for hurt people to come together. But it has become a place to vent and turn right around and hurt others.

Pastor Woods may have used deception in what he did, but his point was clearly made. Everyone did assume (without any facts) he was talking about GGWO. When he has had vicious things said about him right here on this board where anyone can read the posts before there very eyes you can see the proof. Yet no one looked at the Ip or looked for the facts. They just wanted to hear more dirt, true or not they could not wait to hear more. You could say oh he was deceptive he didn't sign his post, but then if he had someone would assume still he meant GGWO and had changed his tune. Besides their are times I forget to sign mine unintentionally.

I do believe firmly what others intend for Evil God means for good.

D.A

[Anonymous (68.162.251.245)]

Cordell,

He didn't say "100 percent Satanic"
Wasn't it, "100 Million Percent Satanic Garbage"?
Me thinks he protests too much..way too much.

I always found this kind of thing funny...remember Kathy Hill, when speaking about Elizabeth Doveydenas's claims? She said, "That's absolutely, positively a lie".

Speaking of Betsy, take a look at the "Board of Directors" board about the skimming of cash.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

DA
I never said it was okay to insult anyone....please don't attribute that to me! When someone wrote that, I rose up to defend, not to add an amen to that!

I thought that what wwr wrote after he baited people was despicable. (diabolical) Go back and read DA you will see that AJL was asking where this was coming from, Karen offered to talk through email and someone else exposed him.....no, it wasn't hard, and yes, I did know it was a bait. Big deal! I still think the man revealed alot about himself.

I spoke up also, because I think its about time someone wouldn't cower in fear towards a man with a title that thinks he can run roughshod over others.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

68.162
Thanks for the correction. A look at the trial transcript shows that even T. Schaller had his testimony corrected by Carl Stevens.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

also DA.....its okay to use deception to make a point.....wow.
you've made assumptions yourself about what peoples intentions are. No one tried to counsel him without facts. They simply responded.
Your'e right about one thing.....God will use evil and make it good.

[DA (68.82.183.197)]

>>>I never said it was okay to insult anyone....please don't attribute that to me! When someone wrote that, I rose up to defend, not to add an amen to that! >>>


Lee, sorry I was speaking in general there not attributing that to you. I know you have in fact called people on there insults. My point was actually this is where Satan has come in to get Christians arguing and bickering with one another.

As for the help offered to Pastor wood, had he been speaking about how much this board has hurt him and his family under annonymous would anyone still offer help to him? Do not answer that because it would only be speculation. just as I can not say I am 100 percent sure no one would because I don't know.

DA

[DA (68.82.183.197)]

lee,

I never actually said it was okay to use deception to make a point. I was just stating the point was in fact made.

DA

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

To J.D. Sheets

J.D. or Mike, which do you prefer? You have arrived at an interesting time on this board. Welcome. I have a few questions, if you would be so kind as to answer them.

1) Do you feel that there is a conflict of interest if one were to work both as a Pastor and a lawyer in the same ministry?

2) Do you think it is proper to change the bylaws of the church to deminish the authority of a leader without full approval of the other leaders, keeping in mind the mental awareness of P. Stevens at that time and the fact that the body was compeletly in the dark as to the changes.

3) Do you think it is morally or ethically proper to use the hard earned money given by the congregation to payoff a wronged husband?


4) Would you sit by if Stevens was your father and watch him destroy himself on Oxicontin and the like and not step in no matter what the cost?

These are just a few of the many questions I have at this time. I'll wait for your reply. Thanks!

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

To: 64.26.65 WHO POSTED ON 5/27 AT 4:03 PM

If your so determined to embarass Cordell, why dont you post your own name??
Cordell apparently has hit a nerve with you.
You ask him about his marriages and the say
"its just a question"
I an others have seen this tactic used by Pastor Stevens and his other Pastors on several occasions , posing as a innocent question designed to hurt their victim.
How about it ???
Or in the words of Pastor Stevens "get some gutz!!"
Oh....wait... i forgot what you preach doesn't have to apply to you. (standard GGWO operating procedure)

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Isabella Wed. May 26, 2004, 8:14 a.m.:

You left some things off of your list about Jim Jones. He worked for the Democrats. He would supply them with an "instant audience." All they had to do was phone him and he would pile his people onto buses and take them to whatever place a Democrat candidate or bigwig was to appear.

Jim Jones was the ~~second~~ mass murderer who shook hands with Roselyn Carter; this was when she visited California. The other was John Wayne Gacey who also worked for the Democrats, and who met Mrs. Carter when she visited Illinois.

Jim Jones was an ultra-left liberal with communist contacts so of course he set his followers up in a commune far away from authorities.

Pastor has made no bones about being a conservative.
Pastor is not taking drugs (as you mean them) but ~~may~~ be taking prescribed medication for his health's sake, seeing as how he was at death's door just the other month.
People who followed Pastor to Maryland ~~did not~~ establish a commune! What could be more open than the Greater Grace complex on a busy road?!
In over three years of hearing his sermons, I have ~~never~~ heard Pastor in any way, shape or form having had "arranged and controlled relationships from the pulpit." Just how would a man manage to do that?

As for anyone being "paranoid," I would say some who have posted on this board sound decidedly so. What next, black helicopters hovering over Greater Grace?

By all means, anyone not comfortable at Greater Grace ought to go elsewhere. But as I said before, I will ~~guarantee~~ that sooner or later, whatever other church you might attend, you are going to hear complaints, scandals, and about people leaving. Been there, seen it, too many times.

[Anonymous (198.200.181.206)]

Loretta,

are you implying that all Democrats are evil people and therefore, all Christians should be Republicans?

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon (68.33) 5-26-04, 11:03 a.m.:

Well, obviously some of you on this board ~~think~~ you know about Jim Jones before the Kool Aid killings, otherwise, why remind us of that odious creature?

And how shocking, someone at Greater Grace doesn't care to read the lies, slanderings, and obsessive postings on here! Imagine, she's interested in involving herself in church doings. (Sarcasm dripping here!)

Yes, by all means she should come here and read what often is lies, slanderings, gross dramatics, and sad stories which, if she dares to ask for specifics, facts, dates and times, or says she "disagrees," she'll find she has left herself wide open for similar things said about her!

As for Pastor allegedly having "defined reality" for some people at Greater Grace, what have many of you on this board been doing throughout all these postings if not claiming those of us who are happy at Greater Grace are somehow under the control of a Svengali-like man? There are hundreds of us in that church of whom you know absolutely nothing, but you are only too willing to assume we are too weak to control our own lives.

Speaking of lack of control, I am astonished at how long some on this board admit to having been away from Greater Grace, yet they are ~~still~~ obsessing about it. Doesn't that tell you something?

Philowl@aol.com

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

To : J.D. Skeet regarding your post of last night 5/26/04 at 11:28 pm

I have to respectfully disagree with you on one thing; You ended your post saying: "it seems that history teachus us that Civil Litigation has not had a great impact on GGWO"
This is NOT the case. However it IS just the same image that Pastor Stevens has managed to employ as part of his damage control.
Some cases in point: The Dovedenas case of 1987 caused hundrreds of people within lenox and the branch ministries to stop, think and seriously consider what was taking place before leaving.
Other smaller settlements; (people selling their homes and giving the $$$ to Pastor Stevens among a few) over the years have been used to keep things out of the press but have not been without their effect on a few who had been part of the inner circle at the time.
More recently, the out of court settlement that involved his son P.Paul's "weaknesses" was just another expensive attempt to keep the larger population of the congegation in tact and has worked to an extent but obviously not without a lot of fallout when coming under the light.
As someone pointed out to me a few years ago; It is no co-incidence that Pastor Stevens gave Michael Marr the title of Pastor within a week of coming to GGWO, even though Marr never had any formal schooling in theology ar Pastoral training prior to this.
Pastor Stevens saw this as his opportunity and has used Marr frequently for free legal advice since then.
Marr travels with Pastor Stevens often, (convenient huh ?)
The same smoke screen for everything being fine is just that: a smoke screen. And it may cause you to choke once you see past the smoke.
P.S. I read with interest your other posts and hope you continue to add your insights.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

OMIGOSH Loretta !!!
Are all Democrats goin to hell ???
What if they change their registration to republican before dying, does this count as repentance ???
What if they accepted Jesus and forget to change their registration before dying ????
PLEASE CHECK WITH PASTOR !!!
AND LET SOME OF US KNOW !!!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon (149.174) 11:16 a.m.

Gee, you know absolutely for sure why Pastor Lutz left? You know absolutely for sure why ~~all~~ the others left? Does ~~anyone~~ in your judgment ever leave Greater Grace because they move to another state, or another religious school with a church where they attend? Can anyone at Greater Grace retire and move to Florida or Arizona? In your estimation, is it possible for anyone to have an entirely innocent reason why they are no longer at Greater Grace? Do you see something sinister in ~~every~~ departure?

If so much is wrong with Greater Grace, why has Jesus fulfilled all the promises He made Pastor all those years ago?

[wwr (200.117.193.2)]

I'm still a little confused. I was not deceptive. I stated fact. People on this board have said hurtful things about me and about my family. I did not bait anyone. I answered the one question asked about the specifics of the hurt done. Is that baiting? According to my understanding, baiting is saying something to goad someone into an argument, but according to you, Lee, by not signing my post, I am despicable. Or is it the fact that I don't set up a website to say how the people on this website have hurt me that is despicable?

I could say that Cordell is baiting me when he writes, "Woodsy, Woodsy, Woodsy: "Oh what a tangled web we weave..." ", but of course if I did, I would be accused of attacking a wonderful man who is here only to help. How do you know that? He hasn't said who he is. For all anyone on this board knows from what he's said here, he is a member of the Texas chainsaw massacre gang. (Now I've done it. I'm guilty of slander. Of course there is an argument to be made that it's impossible to slander someone who doesn't exist)

It's just too confusing to figure out any of what any of you say. What exactly do you all want, other than that I and the other defenders get into a leaky raft and head out to sea?

Would you be satisfied if we all admitted that GGWO's leadership are all direct descendants from a cross between Adolph Hitler and Josef Stalin and that the people who go to church there are one step lower than the protagonists of "Dumb and Dumber"? Would you be happy if GGWO just ceased to exist and that all of the "Pastors" (forgive me for using the word) suddenly dropped dead having been struck by lightening?

The amazing thing is that you brand me according to what I post on this list, never having one time visited the churches I pastor, never having interviewed the people in those churches to see how injured they've become, and never considered that the bulk of you know no more about me than what you have read on this forum. You don't know what I've done in the way of trying to help some of the truly injured off the forum, you don't know if I've investigated your claims, or whether I care that problems get resolved. You've never asked me privately, "Pastor Wood, do you think that anything about GGWO could be changed for the better?" You just continue to accuse, arrive at false conclusions, and complain when I take issue that scripturally there is no place for anything that vaguely resembles this forum.

RWW

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Posted by Loretta on NUMEROUS occasions- “If Pastor is the wretch some on these boards have claimed him to be, why has Jesus fulfilled all the promises made to Pastor many years ago?“
___________
So Loretta, were you there to witness the “promises made to Pastor many years ago”? I’m guessing since you’ve been in the ministry for a few short years that you were not. How do you know it happened? How do you know that, in hindsight, Carl Stevens didn’t just make it all up as he went along? (I got a good parking spot at work today, but I didn’t go in and say to my co-workers “You know what, last night God promised me a good parking spot at work today and Jesus fulfilled that promise!“)

Carl H. Stevens IS the wretch that many have described on this message board. There’s plenty you don’t know about him. I don’t expect you to take my anonymous word for it. Why don’t you do some investigation on your own? Get near the man, get close to him and I’m sure the Lord will reveal his true colors in time. And always keep Matthew 5:45B in mind when you wonder why God allows blessings and curses to be bestowed upon the evil and righteous alike in this world.

Matthew 5:45B- FOR HE MAKETH HIS SUN TO RISE ON THE EVIL AND ON THE GOOD AND SENDETH RAIN ON THE JUST AND ON THE

[D.A. (68.82.183.197)]

Has it ever occurred to anyone with this being a public forum where you can post anon. that you may be responding to people who have never gone to Greater Grace, but they get on here just to start something, and they do and keep going with it? basically you, me and anyone else is just simply there entertainment. Just a thought I had today.

D.A

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Talkin' 12:01 p.m.

All right, here is someone, yours truly, from Greater Grace who was ~~encouraged~~ to come to these boards by a member of GGWO board. Does that squash that rumor?

I can testify that what Pastor said the other night was that "when the internet goes against the church, it is of Satan." He then said he never goes on the internet himself.

It might surprise you to know these are not the only discussion boards on the internet. Like, wow! There are hundreds and hundreds. Over the years I've visited a number of them. You want to see Satan on the internet? Try going to the ACLU discussion boards, with their no-holds-barred language in the name of "free speech." Mention that you are a believer. Only those wearing the whole armor of God come away unscathed.

I can also testify that I have discovered lies in some of these postings, along with cruel insults and gross vulgarities. Some sensitive souls would have difficulty handling such messages.

To demand that everyone at Greater Grace come on the internet to these message boards is totally irrational. I know a number of people there who not only are not computer literate but who don't even own a computer. You expect the impossible.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

Dear Loretta:

You asked this question about promises made by Jesus to Pastor Stevens a few times and I haven't taken time to respond until now, hoping that some one else may.

The very same question could have been asked of Jim Jones and the promises he claimed before he moved the Peoples Temple from Los Angelas to Guyana, South America

The very same thing could be asked of Saul regarding the promises of God made to Saul in the Biblical account before Samuel later confronted him.

It is uncanny how close in wording is Pastor Stevens description of his experience at the pond to Charles Finney own testimony. Finney was a well known of the 1700's who Pastor Stevens often quoted from in earlier days.

It wasn't until we moved from Lenox that Pastor Stevens began to add some of the specifics of the "promises" that Jesus made to him. It was kind of like adding a little as he went along.
I was back in Lenox in the early days and later in Baltimore and have notes to compare such things.

At one point it all began to take on the nature of Mormon founder Joseph Smith's testimony
about his "vision" and promises from the "Angel Moroni" It began to become edited as the years went on.

You also quoted Edmund Burke back a few weeks ago " all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

The problem at GGWO and TBS has been just the opposite. When good men and good women have raised serious questions to Pastor Stevens about some of his teachings, they are eventually ostracized, villified and condemned in some manner through Pastor Stevens own compliance.

The problem is that there aren't enough Nathan's confronting their Davids, the problem lies in the fact that Pastor Stevens dismisses them in the manner mentioned above unlike David. David could seriously consider critcal thinking coming from Nathan. Pastor Stevens has never displayed such charachter.

You mention that you have been in the ministry for three years....
Why is it that you so readily trample uopon and dismiss the experiences and hurts of those that have been in the ministry much longer ?

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

Hello Loretta ?

Are you there??

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon (4.139) 5-26-04, 12:46 p.m.:

Just who the heck do you think you are, signing yourself "the body of GGWO" and demanding that Pastor and his sons resign?!

You do not speak for me, liar. Nobody gave you the authority to speak for all of us at Greater Grace. What total arrogance!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon (64.12) 5-26-04 2:09 p.m.:

Wait a cotton picking moment! I am a widow and at Greater Grace. I have made a number of friends there, male and female, with whom I socialize because I get to church early in order to do so, and attend events, raps, and engage in a Bible study held in a private home. If someone sits around waiting for someone to approach them and talk to them, who is to blame that they have no friends? For gosh sakes, talk to people! Participate in raps and people will come up to you and thank you for your comments.

Some of you try to convince us you are so helpless, under mind control, no friends, and on and on and on. Where is your trust in God? Why aren't you looking to Jesus to walk with you and give you the strength to get on with your life? Good heavens, with all the terrible griefs and trials I've had in my life I could easily curl up in a corner and bawl all day long. Sometimes I do get blue for a little while, but only a little while. I miss departed loved ones. I miss my son who lives across the country. I wish my health could be better and that my life could be easier. The pity parties don't last long, though, because I can always see some others have it much worse than I, and because just walking into Greater Grace fills me with joy.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Pastor Wood,
I lost all respect for you after your sick immature little prank today.

"hahahahaha" .... you sound like a little kid on an elementary school playground.

Whatever point you were trying to prove, it only proved your own character to everyone else

You should be ashamed

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To CRF, 2:19 p.m.:

Dear, feel free in Christ to attend whichever church you desire. You only have to answer to God.

As for "feeling," my degree is in philosophy and I also was taught the same thing. This is because "feelings" can be influenced by illness, weather, something someone said to you, and so on. God gifted us with brains with which to reason out problems and to make rational decisions. God wants us to use our ability to think. This is why we are taught not to use the "I feel" expression but, rather, "I think."

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

SJ,
You fool noone. You never had respect for him.

[talkintruth (149.174.164.83)]

oops...sorry Loretta, I posted this to the wrong board.

Hi Loretta,
Regarding your earlier post to me....No it really doesn't squash any rumor. I don't doubt that you were encouraged to read the board. Neither do I doubt someone else was discouraged from reading the board. I fully believe that the leadership is careful in thinking they will control this board. I think they have already tried. I also believe that some are doing their best to get names of people posting, at least some are at GGCA. There are so many out there praying for people on this board that God will put a hedge around them and give them strength to stand firm.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

68.33.60.157,
Since you don't know me, don't presume to know who I have or don't have respect for

SJ

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Didn't you just now presume to know Pastor Wood's character. You obviously do not know him.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

68.33.60.157,

I know what he has revealed on this board and that is all I claimed to know

SJ

[talkintruth (149.174.164.83)]

Loretta,
A couple of things you said in your post really jumped out at me though. First, you said,
"....I can testify that what Pastor said the other night was that 'when the Internet goes against the church, it is of satan.' He then said he never goes on the Internet himself...."

Think about that statement a minute. Do you think it is so healthy for "Pastor" to make a blanket statement like that if he has never even checked out the posts he is talking about? I don't know about you, but I consider it pretty strong words to say that something is from satan. Surely, he would have carefully checked out the posts and the people on the boards before passing judgment to say that.

Second, isn't it just a bit too easy to say, "If it goes against the church it is from satan?" Jesus encouraged us to ask questions, seek confirmation, go to the Holy Spirit for discernment. The Bible is full of examples of people who asked questions, voiced concerns -- in a big way and in a loud voice. They weren't told they were from satan. God didn't seem them as disposable. He didn't even see the thief on the cross as disposable.

You could also make the argument that if the board at GGWO encouraged you to come to this board, then they must think it is okay. Certainly they wouldn't send you into the arms of something from satan.

I do think Pastor Stevens knows enough of God that he hesitates in asking for total truth to be revealed. I think that is why he just can't do it. He knows what he is asking for.


This isn't a matter of everyone else being wrong. God has given too much clarity to those who have had the ears to hear.

You also said, ".....If someone sits around waiting for someone to approach them and talk to them, who is to blame that they have no friends?......"

I hope that you truly don't feel that way. Is there ever a time in the Gospel when Jesus taught that as a lesson? If that is really an attitude that is prevalent in the church, then is there any wonder so many feel detached?

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon. (68.33) 4.54p.m.:

I don't know about anyone else but when I stand and applaud a pastor it is to thank God for sending the message to us through the pastor.

Those who claim there is some kind of adulation of a man because Pastor is given standing ovations always overlook the fact that there are ~~many~~ occasions when people stand and applaud, like when the choir sings a rousing song or other music groups or soloists touch a chord in us; we've stood and applauded guest pastors and even, by golly, when visiting Governor Ehrlich was introduced and given an award. Why some keep insisting we are all focusing on one man is a real mystery to me. If you don't want to stand and/or applaud, don't! I don't always stand to applaud because I think it is sometimes overdone, especially in the music. I think ovations should be reserved for truly outstanding talents. But we also give standing ovations to the little children's choirs and bands, to encourage them.

[JD Skeet (64.12.116.66)]

Regarding the Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 05:02 PM message to me:

By Mike, I think you mean Pastor Marr. I have never met him and I'm certainly not him. I don't think I know anyone on this board, though I do know many of the names having grown up with my family attending the TBS/GGWO. But if you read my posts you will notice that I suggest going to the MD Attorney General's Office. Do you really think he'd suggest that?

I cannot answer for Pastor Marr regarding his ethical responsibilities to GGWO, to the people that go to GGWO, or to Pastor Stevens. To truly know who a lawyer is obligated to, you have to know who the client is, and that's not clear here. However, I will give my perspective on the questions you asked, although I have edited them.

1) Is there is a conflict of interest if one were to work both as a Pastor and a lawyer in the same ministry? Not legally. It is very common for an attorney to act as both an officer of a corporation, such as a VP, and as General Counsel. There is nothing inherently unethical about having two sets of responsibilities for the same organization. That is not to say there are never conflicts of interest for a person with dual positions, but it is up to that person recognize those conflicts and address them as a professional.

2) Is it proper to change the bylaws of the church to do anything? The bylaws are the rules of the organization. The organization either conformed with rules regarding amendments of the bylaws contained therein or it did not. The motivation in changing the bylaws is not so important since the point of the bylaws is self-governance. The mental capacity of anyone voting may be an issue, but the mental capacity of the subject of the vote is not really an issue, unless that person has a problem with it. (People who are ill may have certain protections under the ADA regarding how they are treated in the workplace.)

3) Do you think it is morally or ethically proper to use the hard earned money given by the congregation to do anything? This is an interesting question. My gut instinct is that people who support ministries with offerings and tithes should be treated the same as shareholders in a corporation and should have the same rights regarding financial disclosure, but I do not think the law supports that theory. But my GUESS is that there are pretty clear rules about using the money of nonprofit organizations and churches for personal gain outside of salaries and wages. Of course, churches are special non-profits and there are special rules that try to balance legal and financial responsibility on one hand and the separation of Church and State on the other hand. Again, this is an issue best addressed by the MD Attorney General's Office. Or maybe the IRS.

4) This question presumes that I am someone that I am not and there's nothing for me to say.

[JD Skeet (64.12.116.66)]

Regarding the Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 05:40 PM post to me:

I'm sorry. I did not write what I meant. I meant that litigation had not had an impact on Pastor Stevens. I agree that it has taken its toll on TBS/GGWO.

But I will say this, settlements are a funny thing. I think that they should be treated as the most unreliable kind of rumor. In a settlement you never know why people come to the table. Sometimes innocent parties settle because the price of maintaining innocence is too high to pay. People have other concerns other than their own personal integrity, like the lives and comfort of their children and family members, or their ability to earn a living in the future if they fail to succeed in a case. You never know why people settle and you never know what they settled on. The terms of a private settlement are often a secret and neither side is supposed to be talking about it. So if I do hear details of a settlement I either think that this person is only telling me a small part of the story so as to not void the settlement or this person that can't keep a promise, neither of which is very reliable person. So I ignore anything regarding settlements because it is very unlikely that one will ever hear the whole truth regarding the matter.

[Pam P. (12.77.46.61)]

As a former member of GGWO, I personally felt betrayed to learn that the tithe money I had given on the preface of spreading the Gospel by supporting missionaries, and Grace Hour, and outreaches had been used for the payoffs. To me, the legal standard is the lower one when compared to the ethical one. But then again, GGWO did teach that when you gave your money to them (leadership) you were actually giving it to God, and whatever they did with the money was between them and God and that they alone would be accountable for it. Now that I am older and wiser I believe that it is my responsibility to make sure to the best of my ability that any money I would give would not be abused. And a simple financial statement would be enough proof for me.
Pastor Wood, I am curious what you think about the GGWO philosphy on the tithe issue.
Pam Purvis

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Pam, Did you completely miss the post before yours? We have no way of knowing whether or not the church made a bad decision in what you call a payoff. It may have saved the church a fortune of you tithe money.

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

Pam 5-27-04 12:33 a.m.:

All right, Pam, put up or shut up. Specify which posting of mine ~~slandered~~ anyone? Spcify with the posting date and time.

You are sooooo selective in your criticisms, aiming them at Maria and me, but never to those who ~~do~~ slander, name names, tell lies, use vulgarities and such. I think you have something against women who express thoughtful opinions, Pam. Jealous? There seems so little substance in your own postings. Perhaps some night classes would help you in that area. :^D

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

JD,
I truly thought Micheal Marr had a conflict of interest serving as both an elder and church's counsel until I read your post and thought more about it. Thanks

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

It was hush money to get the story off the internet. It was offered to the party to shut them up. Even those closest in the inner circle to Pastor were disgusted by it, they stopped giving their money to the church after that. If you knew the anger behind the scenes over that pay-off! These men are corrupt. Some of his most loving enablers call him "Elmer Gantry" behind his back. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. It is not one little boy saying "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!" It is hundreds and hundreds of born-again believers saying "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!"

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

9:26,
We have no way of knowing that and those who do are bound by the settlement not to say anything.

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

By the way, Pam, by "diagnosing" Maria as "bipolar" you are practicing medicine without a license. That's illegal, isn't it? :^D

[Pam P. (12.77.46.61)]

Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 09:14 pm
I didn't read that before I wrote my post because it hadn't yet posted. But it doesn't matter, because the issue to me isn't whether or not the church made a good or bad decision in what I called a payoff. The issue is that I was told my money was going to be used for one thing and it was used for something else not even related to the original plea. If I ask you to give me money so I can feed and clothe my children, and after you give it to me I use it on something that has nothing to do with my children at all,and I only spend that money on myself, is that ethically and morally right?
Pam

[Pam P. (12.77.46.61)]

As far as saving the church a fortune in tithe money, why should the people who tithe have to pay for any of that? The people who are offering the settlement should pay out of their own pocket, not out of mine. If I were sued, should GGWO pay off my debt? Why didn't the people involved in the payoff (P. Paul or whoever)pay the money out of their own pockets? I understand a payoff may have been the wiser financial thing for them to do, but just not with the money that church members gave to support the furthering of the Gospel.
Pam

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Loretta, Maria,

I have known Pam for 11 years and she is one the best people I have ever met. When I got out of the hospital she was the one who took me in when nobody else would. She is the person who introduced me to Keri, and she is the one who helped put us back together.

She left GGWO for her own reasons not because of anything she did wrong or for that matter her husband did wrong. I say it was something "right".

Don't apply a double standard to her because she makes a remark to try to lighten things up some.

Don't mistake what she says as trying to attack you when she was trying to make a point about something.

Your are wrong if you think she is off, and frankly she is tougher than most I know.

Go back and read the post and see what she actually said at first. I think you don't understand the point she was trying to make.

People jump to conclusions to quick around here, and then it turns into a defense mechanism.

If I can take my struggles in jest I would reccomend others do the same.

Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (207.7.203.150)]

Ms. Willits wrote: “You left some things off of your list about Jim Jones.”

Yes, I left a lot of things off in my comparison and it wasn’t their politics. This isn’t about whose hands they shook, or if they are Democrats or Conservatives.

But you’re right, Stevens never shook Rosilyn’s hand.

Jim Jones used the Love the people had for one another against their own selves.
In his case, he had a lot of families. These people were all knit together.
Jones was the 'Master Builder'.

“The logical consequence of this thinking, however, is that any deviation from the cult leader's thinking is automatically condemned. Members' individuality is suppressed and subject to fear and suspicion of everyone around. "It's an abusive relationship. Often by the time you figure that out it's too late, because you can't see how to extricate yourself without hurting yourself or your family. You are like a caged animal."

Jim Jones fled the country because he was in trouble. When Congressman Ryan showed up, (I’m not sure of his political persuasion)Jones panicked.
He didn’t want to lose control, so he had Ryan killed at the airstrip.

Jim Jones used religion to reel his people in. He played on their vulnerabilities.
Most (70%) were black...many were poor and living on their social secuirty. (rather, he was living on their social security.) He preached social justice and equal rights and naturally, they liked hearing about that.

Jim Jones preached that everyone who was against him, was of the devil.
Stevens says these posts are: “One Hundred Million Percent, Satanic Garbage.”

“all the people who lived in Guyana only heard what was going on in the world through Jim. And the result was, not only were we isolated, but Jim was isolated, too. And there was no one who could talk sense into him either. He had isolated himself, as well as us. And so, as he got crazier, there was no one who could set him straight, no one who could take him to task for what he was saying either. So it was wrong from every point of view.” (this from a member who was out getting supplies at the time of the massacre)

Jim Jones did not love the people. He did not care about the people.
Just like Stevens. He doesn’t love the people.
(I believe the same about the Catholic Bishops, by the way..but that is another list.)

This idea may be shocking to you, I understand, but I need to say it anyway. I think I know how you feel, but it is true. You may not be aware of how it works yet, but you will, because it is systematic. It will happen again, and again and again, just as it already has.

Thanks,

Isabella

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon. (68.34) 5-27-04, 8:24 a.m.:

All right, I have been at Greater Grace for over three years. I have attended three services most weeks; I have participated in a Bible study at a private home for over a year; I've participated in numerous raps and different events (picnics, dinners, etc.); last but not least, I took two courses at the college (and earned A's). For one of the courses I taped it and transcribed it, therefore getting the gist of the course three times over (in the class, while transcribing it, and while proof-reading it). In my middle age I earned a B.A. in philosophy and had two years post-graduate work at Penn State, so I have been thoroughly trained to reason things out and to view situations from a different angle than most people. My cumulative was 3.8 and I have scored as high as 140 on I.Q. tests. So therefore, I think you might agree I am capable of being a keen observer and arriving at rational conclusions. Yet, I have never (N-E-V-E-R) observed many of the things people are posting allegations about here---mind control; leaving "the geographical will of God" for my life; having Pastor at the Bema seat with a list about me; gossip and slandering of people who have left the church (except on this board!); pastors lying; and all too many other allegations.

You say the teaching is "subtle"? Can it be so "subtle" it doesn't exist? Obviously people experienced something that caused them to leave, but I will say again I don't think ~~every~~ case had all the pastors doing the abusing and all the congregants being the innocent victims. I think from some of the postings on this board, with vulgarities, outright lies, insults and such, I can safely say certain personalities may have been so abrasive they were invited to leave? Did some of the students do so poorly in their studies they dropped out?

So where did all these things happen that are being alleged? Greater Grace doesn't have barbed wire around its complex. Hundreds of us arrive and leave in our automobiles. For some to claim "there is no getting out" sounds, I'm sorry to say, paranoid.

Weren't you all reading your Bibles over those years? Didn't the Word get through to you that Jesus set you free? Didn't the Word teach you that adulation of a person is idolatry? Didn't the Word teach you that God holds each of us responsible for our own actions? How can any of you blame Pastor or any other person if you failed to learn these lessons from the guidebook with which God has gifted us?

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

Loretta,
Just because you have not observed or heard certain things does not mean that they are not real. 3 years is a drop in the bucket. Many of us were there for 20 years or more. I can tell you firsthand that teaching on the "geographical will", and Pastor at the Bema seat did occur, that slandering of those who left did occur, that pastors did lie(to name some of what you mentioned). There is reality outside of your own personal experience and perceptions

[bob (66.30.49.45)]

Read it and weep, Loretta, it's all true!!
The "allegations" and peoples' experiences are all true.
It is, at its core, since Wiscasset, an evil church system led by a self-serving con man who cast aside everyone who ever questioned him (no matter how devoted for 10 20 or 30 years they had been).
It may take longer than 3 years to experience this as true...

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To SHA, 5-27-04, 2:48 p.m.:

Your response to Pastor Woods was dripping with sarcasm but, having been a victim just as he described, of the "wounded victims" insulting me, telling me to stop posting and go away, even forging my name in order to post the ultimate vulgarity, and so on, I agree with what he said.

But I am mystified as to just what you're doing here. Didn't you say you have been away from Greater Grace for 15 years?! Yet, it didn't phase you a bit to claim that standing ovations were for Pastor and not for God. What utter arrogance! Even were that the case when you were here---you obviously adored the man and not God?----how do you know what has evolved in the last 15 years when you weren't here to see? You would claim to know more than those of us who ~~have~~ been attending Greater Grace regularly?

Isn't it time you got over your obsession and moved on with your life? What kind of church are you attending that you haven't in 15 years learned to do that?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Loretta ,
As for your resume' listed above...I was quite impressed! Until I remembered that all of Marshall Applewhites member had a minimum of a Bachelors degree in their chosen discipline and many of them had Doctorates. That did not stop them from committing mass suicide with "Pastor' Marshall in 1997. Don't you read the papers ? Do you forbid yourself to do so because Pastor would not approve ?
At the same time
P.Stevens was always a bit insecure around his staff who have had degrees from Accredited secular universities. Numbers of them have left or been driven out of TBS and GGWO. Jack Leonard has a degree from an Ivy Leauge University. It only was used against him behind his back once he began to "think outside the box" that P.Stevens wanted him to remain in.

[Pam P. (12.77.46.61)]

Loretta,
Isn't it time you stop telling people what to do? What kind of church are you attending that you haven't learned in 3 years to stop telling people how to live their lives?
Pam

[bob (66.30.49.45)]

To quote a famous English peasant:
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a sytem of government...
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farsical, aquatic ceremony"

Appliance salesmen lying by ponds covered in liquid waves of love is no basis for a system of Christian belief or world wide missions...

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Loretta, I ask that you do some studying about abusive churches. You are a knowledge lady in many areas but not this particular one. Your words expose your lack of knowledge on abusive churches and recovery from them. Your post to Sha is evidence of your ignorance on this subject. Experts in the field (by the way, all highly educated Christians) label GGWO as an abusive church. All agree that spiritual abuse is in a category similiar to incest. I don't believe you would ever say to an incest victim "get over your obsession and move on."
You would not say that because you are educated to know the devastating effects of incest. Educate yourself in the area of spiritual abuse. Especially as you visit this forum very often and constantly challenge the victims. I can only believe God would want you to speak from the stand point of "informed" rather than "ignorance."

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Well said Bob !! (66.30.49.45)

and hialariously true !!!

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Please use GGWO Main Board Thread 10.We who use dial-up would appreciate it. Thanks.

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon, 5-27-04, 5:30 p.m.:

Oh, for gosh sakes, some of you are in dire need of reading comprehension lessons! Go back and read again my posting about Jim Jones. I said ~~nothing~~ about ~~all~~ Democrats being "evil." I was stating a fact of history, that two evil men found it useful for their own purposes to work for the Democrats and, in doing so, got to shake the hand of Mrs. Carter.

Any wonder some of you had problems at Greater Grace? You ~~literally~~ can't comprehend what is being said at times.

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Loretta,

These ~~~~~~ are really annoying

[Pam (12.77.46.61)]

Can we pleeeze go to the next board???!!!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon. (205.188), 5:54 p.m.:

How do I know Pastor wasn't making things up as he went along? That is why I keep asking that question which none of you seem to be able to answer. I posed the question a while back as to ~~when~~ Pastor first told about the vision of his little church with the hole in the floor evolving into one that would have a Bible college and send missionaries around the world.

Are you memories so poor none of you can recall that? But even, as you say, he might have made up things as he went along, how could a wretched man be so successful at building our huge complex and having so many affiliated churches around the world?! If a wretched man could achieve all that, how come you perfect creatures out there haven't far surpassed him in his accomplishments? Huh? Huh? Time's awasting! Get busy already!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Talkin, 7:58 p.m.:

Oh, you think you are so clever twisting the truth and things that I said. It's quite possible, isn't it, that people have told Pastor what is being said on these boards. Perhaps he read it in the newspaper? Huh? Huh?

He said when the internet ~~attacks the church~~ it is from Satan. "The church" is the body of Christ and can encompass Christian groups all over the world. Such attacks have been of epidemic proportions on the internet (and other media) and if you are unaware of that you aren't keeping yourself properly informed.

As for people lacking friends at Greater Grace, that is quite apart from the Gospel being preached to them---and you know it but you think you are so clever to put a different intent into my words. Making friends isn't done during services when we are singing and listening to sermons; it's done before and after services and at various events in which the church body is engaged. If someone chooses to be a wallflower, sitting there like a queen waiting for others to come to her, then she might wait a long time, right? Some of us do speak to the quiet and shy ones, but we can't very well be held responsible for the hundreds who attend Greater Grace. But I suspect you know that already and just want to get your digs in at body members of a church you don't even attend but for reasons of your own feel compelled to criticize.

[Anonymous (12.77.46.61)]

NEXT BOARD PLEASE!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Neil, 10:16 p.m.:

Methinks thou dost protesteth tooooooo much! Pam isn't ha ha joking, she is acerbic and even downright cruel in her postings to Maria. She told me in so many words to shut up. I have yet to see her attack any man on these boards the way she goes after Maria and me. Even on this string, when there were dozens of posting but not yet any of mine, when she attacked Maria she just ~~had~~ to take a swing at me, too. That was uncalled for. But say, fella, I might be up in years but after all the griefs and trials I have survived I, too, am tough. I will not leave until I choose to leave.

[Anonymous (12.77.46.61)]

Next Board Please!!!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon (152.163) ll:08 p.m.:

Are you crazy, or what?! Now you are accusing me of wanting to commit suicide but only fend off the desire because Pastor might not approve? What wicked evilness you indulge in.

Of course, you indulge yourself in this wickedness under the cloak of anonymity. Sick!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

Pam, 11:17 p.m.:

Isn't it time you stop telling people what to do? What kind of church are ~~you~~ attending that you haven't learned in (fill in the blank) years to stop telling people how to live their lives?

Tell me what church ~~you~~ attend so I can come and criticize it. How dare you tell me that I can't defend my own church of which you are not a member. Kiddo, you sure have a lot of gall.

[Anonymous (12.77.46.61)]

Loretta,
Are you stubborn or stupid? Please move onto the next board!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

Anon 205 11:28:

And have the "experts" ever made a study of abusive congregations? I've experienced those!

And why should I expend my time and efforts studying abusive churches when I have spent so many hours on these boards reading hundreds of postings about my own church from all of you "experts"? I keep asking for specifics and I only get broad accusations, lies, and allegations from people, some of whom haven't been members for 15 years or so. Instead of getting on with their lives they seem to want to wallow in their misery and want us to join them in their pity parties. Thanks, but no thanks. And before you accuse me of not caring about people, I wonder how many of you care about ~~my~~ trials and tribulations in life? No matter how much I say I am happy with my church and the wonderful friends I have made there, some of you seem bound and determined to make me as miserable as you are. Again, thanks but no thanks!

[Anonymous (12.77.46.61)]

~~Please~~move~~onto~~the~~next~~board~~!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

Anon 12.73

In your demand I move to another board ~~you~~ are too stupid to note that these last postings of mine were in answer to others posting ~~two hours~~ ago!

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

To Pam P You need to get out of the kitchen and off the board. Some deprogramming might help? When did you get your license to diagnosis? You hateful christian. Shame

[Loretta J. Willits (149.174.164.83)]

Talkin' (5-27-04, 7:45 p.m.): By all means enlighten us as to just what "the leadership" at Greater Grace will do if they manage to discover the names of those posting anonymously on this board? Shadow them with black helicopters?

[Loretta J. Willits (149.174.164.83)]

Neil (5-27-04, 10:16 p.m.):

Surely you're not serious, are you?! Claiming that Pam with her nasty comments is attempting to "lighten" things on this board in jests?

If you believe that you'd better take the blinders off.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Speaking of blinders, Loretta, maybe you haven't noticed that people have been posting on board 10 for days now.

[Loretta J. Willits (149.174.164.83)]

SJ (10:52 and Bob (10.54): Where have I ever said anything I haven't experienced myself did not take place? I originally came on this board asking for ~~specifics and facts~~ not broad claims and allegations. Someone "lies"? When, where, how?

Three years is a "drop in the bucket"? You mean if in all the services I have attended and ~~not~~ heard Pastor claiming the things alleged on here I am somehow being harmed anyway because sooner or later---if 3 years is a "drop" I suppose I might have to wait 20 years?---Pastor allegedly will tell these lies.

If three years is a "drop in the bucket," what about SHA who claims she hasn't been at Greater Grace for 15 years?! Why is she still obsessing about a church she hasn't been at for 15 years? What kind of church has she been attending all these years that she is not focusing on it? What kind of counseling has she been getting that they have not taught her how to get on with her life?
I dare to say any pastor who is now counseling her is failing in his calling.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hello Loretta, Can you hear me??? T-R-Y B-O-A-R-D 10..

[Anonymous (66.98.226.42)]

yes

the

rest is history

[Anon IPs (205.181.240.193)]

205.188.117.20 Mitchall Clarke COOLSCOOB315@aol.com 3700 West Nolte Road St. Cloud Florida; Chrissy Slaske cdslaske@aol.com 5616 W. Montana St. Milwaukee WI 53219;

[Anon IPs (192.250.112.194)]

Quote from 205.188.117.20

"I Have been some time now called to the ministry, and have so interested in the laying on of hands and prophesying. I'v read Kathryns' book I Believe in Miracles and it has been such an inspiration to me, as most things about healing interest me. The anointing of God comes all over me and I know this is my area of operating in the Spiritual. I thank God for the ministry of Mrs.Kuhlman!
Name: Elder: Gloria N. Gaines
Host: 205.188.117.20
Location: Abbeville, AL USA
Date: Wed Jul 7 04:16:37 2004 "

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

that is a much needed ministry today , anointing services and healing ministry but most churches either don't believe ,never seek God in that , just excess banquets, activities but no great commission

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.236)]

Healing ministries often have their own imbalances. They tend to use mainly the parts of the Word that relate (in their estimation) to healing. This is not meant to discredit their intentions or to refuse to see their fruit. But I think they tend to be a little lacking in terms of relating to the whole man/woman. I personally prefer a church focus on love rather than on 'the gifts'. Gifts are necessary; but they are to come from love as their source. They are a means rather than an end. I'm not all that interested in what God can do. I'm interested in what He wants and in Who He is.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

so you're not interested in what GOd can do ? you just focus on "love" ahhhhh the love message love bombing comes from GG ,you are still trapped in gg midset... anyone that went to their bible college has to forget the heresy that was pimped into them and go to a good spirit filled school

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY