Greater Grace World Outreach TBSWO 8

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Here is a new forum especially for dial ups.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Old posts:

Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:17 pm
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Anon. 12:38

You're darned right I intend to keep talking. Some of you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you in....what? Telling me to shut up?

You're implying that those of us who crowd into Greater Grace ~~aren't~~ led by the Holy Spirit or else we would turn into the control freaks some of you are. I "batter the battered"? Obviously some of you aren't so "battered" that you would refrain from attacking me. I haven't told anyone to shut up but two of you have told me to shut up and were mean-spirited enough to claim nobody reads my messages. Well, I'll try it your way:

You shut up. You go away. There. See how that feels.

I fail to see why it obsesses some of you if there are those of us who get consolation attending Greater Grace. When I saw trouble makers ruining two churches I attended in Pennsylvania, I walked away. I missed some of my friends in those churches, kept in touch outside of church with some, but I never tried to persuade anyone else to leave just because I did. They were adults, capable of making their own decisons.

You control freaks have no respect for adults at Greater Grace. Just because ~~you~~ had a bad experience you think we are supposed to follow your lead. Too bad! The mind control I am seeing these days is on this board, not at Greater Grace. You don't only want to control me, you want to control everyone else on this board, claiming they don't read my messages. If that were the case, why are some of them asking me questions?


Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:18 pm
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Next Issue:

I have contacted a Counseling Group that is in Maryland. The group is already being used by some of the folks who need help with some past hurts. Some on this forum can actually profess that are a great organizationto work with.

The group also has worked with some of the counselors at GGWO & MBCS over the years. So no matter what side of the fence you are on the group is well recieved. You can discuss your desire to get counseling and I will be very confidential in dealing with any matter. I cannot promise but I think the leadership of the church will be able to support and encourage this process, hopefully in a public manner like Grace Hour. I hope to have a conversation with the Elders about this soon.

Regardless of what the church decides to do the counseling group is willing to work with those involved and especially who have been hurt. I will try to set some times up for effort like group counseling very quickly.

If you want to be involved in confidential, or group counseling with an opportunity to heal please contact me:

neil@1works.net

Information on how I will work this group on behalf of those who need help and counsel will be more available as the next week goes comes.

Neil Carrick
neil@1works.net


Anonymous (149.174.164.83)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:26 pm
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Listen Loretta,

Listen to the spirit. Do not belittle another's experience because it does not match your own. No one said "shut up," you used those words. I ask you to listen, to consider the nature of Christ.

I am glad you found fellowship at GGWO. I do not negate your experience or your intelligence. I have no desire to control you.

Yet you have attributed the above statements as though your can read my mind and speak my words. I would never think the unkind thoughts you presume I am saying.

This is what I am thinking about you: You are loving lady that has received the grace of God through the many trials of life. That has overcome much and knows her Savior in a very real way. I see a lady who found a church filled with many beautiful believers. She found friends and fellowship and defends the church she loves. I see a woman that has a different view because of a different experience.


I am asking you to consider that amongst the brethren you fellowship, there are those that suffer. I ask you to consider how Christ would view them. He would not hurt them anymore. Sha was spoken with vunerability that her experience was different than yours. I am sure if you were face to face with her or others, you would open your arms to her. I am sure that is how you live your life. But on this board, your words hurt others and it is against the nature of God to speak to them in such a way that belittles their pain.


Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:37 pm
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Jack (10:04)

I have no doubt the woman writing about the school is sincere and stating the case as she sees it; but I have had nothing to do with the school so I have no way of verifying what she said. To imply that only the detractors are led by the Holy Spirit is rather odious, I think. What next? Am I to be asked if I am ~~really~~ saved?!

What I am having difficulty with is comprehending how, if there are supposedly so many detractors out there, and you are so sure the Holy Spirit is on your side, why you all can't think of anything to do other than to post on this board. I would suggest several actions but none of you would follow them seeing as how you don't think I am led by the Holy Spirit. Oh, yes, and some of you think I am incapable of thinking anyway, right?

I just can't believe that all the problems are one-sided, with all the detracting congregants being totally innocent victims and the church leaders being ..... oh, gosh, too many accusations to relate here. Having witnessed other members of congregations making life miserable for some pastors, I refuse to let some of the detractors off the hook, so to speak.

Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:40 pm
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Talkin Truth,

I be glad to me with you and your Pastor at your church. While I don't live in Baltimore I would be more than willing to do so they days I am there.

It will be after school is out so that shouldn't be a major issue.

I would be glad to ask Pastor Baker to go, and if you are not concerned with him being present I would think for the sake of others it would be a good idea that you did so, and that I was present.

Neil Carrick
neil@1works.net


Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:46 pm
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E (141.157.87.67)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:09 pm

Please write me. I like to know something, and I don't want to broadcast it on the forum.

Thanks,

Neil Carrick
neil@1works.net


Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:52 pm
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[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

The general conversation continures here.

[Jack Brown (151.196.55.158)]

Reposted from Thread 7

Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:33 pm
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Loretta:

With great respect, I have never said that the Holy Spirit is on "one side or the other" that you talk about. I have watched this board intently this morning into this afternoon and observed the direct but kind way in which two other posters have addressed you. Neither of them told you to shut up, quit the church or drop dead. Those were your words. Instead of reacting and "refusing to let some of the detractors off the hook...", listen to what they say with an open heart and think how you sound when you post back to them. The 149.174.. posting at 1:26 PM was direct and honest but also very kind and loving. Please don't see those of us not defending GGWO as the "enemy"...we are NOT anyone's enemy.

I agree with what the 1:26 PM posting said. I'm thinking you are a lady that loves the Lord and her church but sees this as her "battle" too. I winced when I read what you said to Sha. She has obviously been through much that no one ever knew about. It seemed as though she took some major steps in the healing process some of which may have been just coming on this board.

This is similar to a family situation where someone tells you something negative about your child and it's just plain hurts to hear it. You don't want to believe it but you know it's true. You may not want to receive it or worse, strike back to protect them but you can't because you know it's true, you've seen signs of it yourself, and your child isn't perfect even though you love them and would do almost anything to protect and "defend" them. But defending doesn't make the problem go away; they'll just do it again to someone else, somewhere else.

This is our family (the Christian family) and we're speaking the truth in love. All family members should be encouraged to speak, not just a few from "one side or the other". But whoever comes on the board, they shouldn't need to fear that there's a church posse waiting to lynch them with words. Christ wouldn't have done that; I don't think He expects His church to do it either.

Think on these things quietly, Loretta...please.

Jack Brown

[Jack Brown (151.196.55.158)]

In spite of the unannounced decision to shuffle the board around, I personally am going to post everything on the sequential threads. I encourage others to do the same so that everyone can see everything that's posted without wondering what folder it might be in.

Jack

[Jack Brown (151.196.55.158)]

This is a repost of TalkinTruth from yesterday...


Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:24 pm
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Dear GG Board,
I have been sitting quietly following the postings on this board. I have wept for the people on this board, and I pray constantly for everyone who posts here. It is so clear to me that there is very real spiritual warfare going on, and I find it all a bit exhausting. Still, God is bigger than the warfare, and I have felt compelled to write, so here I am.

Before I go any farther, let me say that I am posting anonymously only because I currently have children in GGCA, and I don't know what kind of repercussions they might be subjected to if I post my name. Simply put, if some feel negatively towards me for adding my two cents worth - that is okay, because truth is truth. However, I don't think my children should be put in an uncomfortable position at school. It may be unintentional, but human nature being what it is --- I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I do understand why people post anonymously -- based on some of the responses that I've read. I also understand the frustration at why people are leery of anonymous posts. While I have no respect for some of the actual responses I've read, I have great respect for those on both sides of this issue who have posted their names. I do plan on posting my name as soon as we get through the last day of school, as I think it only fair that I identify my post too.

I found this site only after the Baltimore Sun article appeared last week. We are not members of GGWO. We do have children in the school, and we have been told CONSTANTLY that the pulpit and the school go hand in hand. Therefore, I think that gives us a vested interest in the situation.

At the urging of teachers and parents/friends at the school, we have attended services there a couple of times. We are firmly rooted in our own church and have not had a desire or call to change, nor did we feel that GGWO was a church for our family. Still, we thought the statement of beliefs was sound (as written). Our pastor teaches that the boundaries of the Christian body goes way beyond our church doors, so we felt comfortable having our children in the school even though we are not members.

Hindsight being 20/20, I'm thinking we should have seen how/if that statement of faith is manifested at the church. I guess now I'm playing a little catch up to learn a little more. After the article in the Sun, we felt it our duty to do a little of our own searching and a lot of our own praying.

If there is any leadership reading this board, I implore you to please know that what I say comes from the heart, and I hope and pray that you will listen to those that you have vowed to serve, whether that service be from the pulpit or from the classroom. Whether you agree or disagree, know that it comes from the heart and at times we all (leaders included) need to stop and search our hearts for real truth. For those willing to indulge me with a long posting - lol - here is our story.

When our children began at Greater Grace, we felt that there truly was a heart after Christ at the school. We rejoiced that they were at the school. We told others about the school and were so proud to be there. We always felt that we were looked down upon (based on comments and actions from staff and some parents) for not attending GGWO, but we attributed that to personality differences. We didn't give it a whole lot of thought.

This year, almost from day one, we had a VERY different feeling. We had a nagging that something was not right. There was a very different spirit there -- an unsettling. We felt very unwelcome there and we felt more than ever that we were seen as somehow less than Christian. There was a huge weight. I began to ask my family to pray for me. Many of the teachers and parents were friends, but I felt more and more uncomfortable around them. I was happy to be around them as a friend, but the minute that any sign of fellowship about God came up, I was bothered to the point of not wanting to be around them. I sought prayer, as I thought it was me.

The nagging feeling continued, and I continued to seek prayer through our church and my family. Then I began to see many little flags start to shoot up. Some connected with that nagging feeling right away, others didn't come into focus until the article came out and we began to do our own digging. Here are a few of those flags.

First of all, why are the teachings of Carl Stevens played constantly over every available speaker in the school? Why was the high school pulled out of classes to accompany pastor on his walk and then sent to Grace Hour - no academics that day? Why has my highschool child been getting inundated with an idea that Bible College is pretty much the only respectable way to go? Why has he been looked down on for considering a secular college? Why has he all of a sudden had a call to the mission field and at the same time had a call that he does not need to seek God for confirmation to that call?

Why did do we suddenly need all the added security all over and I mean ALL OVER the school? There are cameras in the classrooms and hallways. Why? Administration sometimes watches the children in class, because my highschooler has been sitting in class when someone suddenly addresses one of the students about how he/she is sitting, facial expressions, etc. My child said it is the weirdest feeling to know you could be watched at any time. It has caused much distrust in some of the high school students in particular.

Also, why did the headmaster tell us that he keeps a gun in his desk? It seems a little extreme to say the least. Is this part of the same paranoia that I believe led to the security cameras and has "the pastor" surrounded by body guards? Why is there an almost obsession with money from school leadership? I know this is fact because it was voiced to me.

We continued to pray, and the flags continued to go up. One day, one of the teachers asked me, "Are you sure you are really, really saved?" Okay I have to admit that that one made me smile a little. (Can we really be just kinda saved?) At her insistence we went to church with her one day.

She reserved seats for us. She made sure we new that it was a true honor to have reserved seats. We had not been in the church since previous years when we attended only to visit. It was a very unsettling experience to say the least.

At one point, one of the children leaned over to ask one simple question and was told under no uncertain terms to be quiet by the person behind him. He was a child with a simple question about a teaching, but there was to be no talking at all while "The Pastor" spoke. Then came the standing ovations.

People began standing up and cheering for "Pastor." That kind of thing is foreign to our children and not something they are used to, so they stayed seated. Another man from another family, had the audacity to reach over and tell my son to get on his feet and give pastor some praise.

You can imagine how proud I was when my younger child later said to us, "Well I'm sorry but my praise and worship is for Jesus not a man with a microphone." My child was speaking truth.

After the service, the person who took us to the church begged us to just try and get near to "Pastor." I remember her saying, "To just get to shake his hand. To just be near him is such an honor." When I got near him and met him along with the throngs of those clamoring to get to him, I have to say that I was officially creeped out. We left there saying -- "I just don't get it!"

With all of that said, we still continued to believe that all was okay at the school. I don't think we wanted to think anything else. (Some of our own denial.) We still told ourselves that we just needed to seek more and ask God to change our hearts. But in the back of my mind was the reminder that ....."The school and pulpit go hand in hand."

Sometimes God taps us on the shoulder. With me, he often has to use a hammer on my head to get my attention. When the person from school found out that we were not about to jump ship from our church, the small flags shot to the top of the flagpole, and the proverbial hammer dropped on my head.

I was questioned about how could I not see how much more GGWO could offer my family. It went on and on and on. While she didn't even know the name of our church, we were pretty much told that whatever it was, it was all but blasphemous. It got to the point that I had to be quite blunt in saying that we are happy at our church. We are fed at our church. We never had any intention of leaving our church, and by the way......we really, really are saved!

After that, our home life came into question, and we were shunned -- to the n-th degree. Then I began to get email. I have saved it and would welcome the chance to speak with a person in leadership about it (once school is out). It was filled with a laundry list of the wrongdoing of others, and the email was billed under the guise of defending Christianity. It was really a call to hate and exclude those who believe differently. As I said, I have saved the emails, because it disturbed me to no end. I was especially disturbed that this came from a representative of GGWO through GGCA - a church that purports to minister to the World.

My prayer focus took a sharp turn. Instead of praying for a change of heart, I began to pray for clarity and discernment. There were many other little things that came
up - MANY. Then the Baltimore Sun article hit.

I have to tell you, I was heartbroken on many levels. We felt very betrayed as a family. We have decided to remove our children from the school, but it wasn't the words of the article itself. It was all of the other flags, coupled with the way that this article was handled, or should I say not handled.

I think it is reprehensible that no one from the school has bothered to mention or address it with parents. After all, the pulpit and the school go hand in hand. I have been shocked and heartbroken that an administration that I trusted with overseeing the education of my children has conducted business as usual - as if nothing has happened. Never once have they said, "Hey parents - you may and should have questions and we welcome them and want to address them."

We should have left that school on Monday with an announcement of a meeting of parents and administration to address the article and parent concerns. We have been heartbroken again to find out how long this has been going on.

The fact that we didn't sends a message of some type of secrecy, and with that some indication of guilt. I have no doubt in my mind that many people there know that there is a great ring of truth to the article.

The second reason we have decided to pull our children from the school is some of the postings on this board, in particular those of Maria and Pastor Wood. I hope you will both, at some point go back and reread your posts. Then ask yourself, is that the witness I want to give. Our pastor once said, "God offends the mind to reveal the heart." That is so true, and I believe many hearts are being revealed.

When people from GGWO post, there has not been a call to pray that God remove any and all blinders and reveal total truth. There has never been that call that God reveal all truth whatever that may be and let the chips fall where they may. With the exception of a few, there has not been a reaching out to those who are clearly, visibly, and post here legitimately wounded. Instead, there is a continuous denial, attempts to encourage or guilt people into changing the subject, attacks to defend, etc. If GGWO is a sound church, then God needs no defending. Instead, intercede for truth. He will bring truth.

I can tell you this. I know of at least 5 other sound Christian churches that are praying daily for just that. They are praying in church, in prayer teams, in kinship meetings, in prayer partners, in bible studies. They are praying that God rip away the blinders and expose the real truth. I'm sure others posting on this board have their churches praying for truth too.

When this first broke, my husband and I decided that we wanted to go with our pastor to speak with someone in leadership about the doctrine of the church. As parents of children in the school, we do have a right to ask questions. That is our job. There has been NO ONE available to talk with us. With all due respect, I didn't want a politically correct answer. I wanted a straight answer. NO ONE has been available.

It has left no other choice but for parents to talk among themselves and talk they do. I can tell you that I know of many families who will be pulling out after the last day of school. Also, I hope that GGWO and GGCA will learn what the consequences of secrecy will do.

Concerned that we will lose all or some of the money paid for next years tuition (we have already paid in full due to pressures from the top,) we sought our own legal counsel about where we stand. Because the questions about the church have been known for some time, and no effort was made to inform parents, school leadership did not disclose information that could have effected a parent's decision to enroll their child. That will most likely null and void all contracts in a court, and parents will have a right to their refunds - in full. There is much proof to that. I mention this because I hope beyond hope that the leadership will see that deceit, secrecy, and denial is not the route to go.

I can also tell you that we are not the only family that sees the level of "Pastor Worship" among other things, that exists in the church as a real danger. I have been surprised to hear some of the reactions from people as we started to do our own digging for information.

I have no reason to just throw stones at your church. On the contrary, as a parent of children in the school, I have every reason to turn the other way. No one wants to uproot their children and move them to a new school. I have every reason to instead try to sweep this under the rug and tell myself that all is okay. Because we wanted so much to believe that we were wrong, we asked other Christians for counsel. We asked other Christians to visit the church. We know a pastor from another church who also visited. Without exception, all have come back saying they see real dangers in the teaching at GGWO. We know that we can't hide our head in the sand. Each day brings more confirmation.

It is time that a leader with integrity realize that there is a problem going on there. There ARE cult behaviors -- shepherding and control, allienation, just to name a few. You may not like it. You may not want to hear it. But it is truth. There are also many people in very real pain. I know that some of the stories friends of mine from the school shared with me were true horror stories. There is very real spiritual abuses going on. When I asked why they went back, they said -- they just couldn't break free. They couldn't explain why.

We have also had some from GGWO come to our church. All need prayer.

It seems to me that it does no good to hide your head in the sand either by insisting that everyone else is wrong and that everyone else is attacking, and GGWO bears little to no responsibility. God is moving for His people. I would encourage the GGWO faithful to remember that we are not called to be faithful to a building or an organization. As Christians, we are called to be faithful to Jesus. So why not join in prayer for truth. Ask God to do whatever it takes to reveal the complete and total truth about this "ministry". The truth is not to embarrass, ridicule or cause anymore pain to others. Instead, call for truth so that the healing can began. Call for truth so that His word becomes the focus. I hear so much on this board about "Pastor's teaching" or "Pastor's doctrine." Let the focus be Jesus and His word, His teaching, His doctrine.

I also see many on the board who quote scripture with seemingly wild abandon. Well, with all due respect, Satan could quote the bible too. Before launching an attack on me, please know that I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE SATAN. What I am saying is that to be able to quote the bible does not give you credibility as a Christian. Instead, walk out the bible. Let others see Jesus in you. When people can see that, then we are walking out a witness.

No matter how attacked Jesus was, He never launched out with some of the ways that have been posted on this board. Instead, he just kept being the light. I think it is important to stay in that light.

Don't use Grace as a cover to excuse any and all transgressions. Take accountability for actions. Of course Jesus forgives our transgressions. Of course there is no sin too big for Him. But sin is just that...sin. I can't bear to hear one more GGWO church member tell me, "well I'm not really worried about it because I'm already saved." Before we were totally shunned, I had friends tell me cases of adultery, abuse, and drug use in their own families and then follow it with...."but I'm not worried about it because I'm just thankful we are all saved." Please -- you have got to be kidding me. I myself tried to offer counsel on that but only heard, "I don't have to worry about sin because I am saved." Grace is not an excuse to live in a state of sin, and that is not my opinion.

I think it is time to storm heaven's gates - to fall at the foot of the cross and intercede for truth. I don't think it is just the healing that we pray for. Sometimes God has to fully expose the wound before He heals. He doesn't want to put a Band-Aid over an infected cut. He wants to expose it, clean it, and then bandage it. Does He have to do it this way? No - He is God and He can make it go away at an instant. But those of us who are parents need only think about our own children.

When they do wrong, do we just fix it for them? No, we try to teach them how to avoid the wrong later. We spend some time comforting. We know we will go through any pain with them but we know they must endure to come out stronger.

There are false teachings being taught at this church. Pastor Carl Stevens and others are responsible for false teachings. I have heard them myself. Carl Stevens is not one to be adored and honored. Only Jesus is. You can say all you want to that he doesn't like it. But, if he stood on that stage and said, "NO - sit down and knock it off - let's get something straight," etc....then it would stop. And he is still very involved in the ministry. I may have misunderstood some of the postings, but it seemed like some were saying that Carl Stevens is not an elder in the church or involved in pastoring. If I misunderstood that I apologize. If I understood it correctly, it is incorrect. He was just at the school this week, along with his body guards. The teachers still refer to him as their pastor.

I have also read many posts that say that the basic beliefs are sound at GGWO. It is just the leadership that is off track. I sought prayer from some friends, and I felt one put it into words better than I could have. I'd thought I'd share a piece of it as food for thought. Here is an excerpt from an email that I received from a prayer partner.
" .......Anything short of God's truth is a lie. We serve a jealous God. If any man (such as the pastor or anyone else) tries to take his place then.....well you know the rest. From all I have heard, I don't think it would be beyond God to shatter this church apart. My dad has counseled many, too many, who have come out of "christian churches" who were basically a front for cult type activity. I would see what is happening now as God's grace and mercy to those who truly follow Jesus. They will have to discover God's truth now. It is not man who tests our hearts, but God. I was just telling someone the other day how rampant I think this type of thing is here in our culture. Do I think God will not redeem? By no means! He is just and true. His ways are true. He will pursue all of His children with the diligence of a father who has unfailing love for His kids. So I will pray that those who have ears to hear, will hear the voice of God at this time. I will pray for the children's protection at that school, and I will pray God gives you wisdom about what to do and say. There is a spiritual battle being waged right now, you can count on that. I am so glad you have a church who is behind you and holding you up.............."


In closing, please know that I have no ill feelings for the people on this board. I have no reason to hate anyone. I have no reason to have ill feelings for people in leadership at GGWO. However, I hope we will remember that it isn't about defending the people in leadership. It isn't even about defending the word of God. He is the creator of the universe and does not need our defending Him. It isn't about one so called anointed leader. We need HIS TRUTH. We need His complete and total TRUTH. We need HIS covering. We need Jesus to step in and shed total light.

I am sorry for going on so long, and I thank everyone who hung in there long enough to read this through. Because I don't usually post here, I just wanted to voice what I felt I needed to voice. Thank you for hearing me out.

In Christ,
Talkin Truth

[Neil (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

I agree and disagree. Make this a general thread, and use the other for specific discussions.

I understand how you feel about posting everything on the same thread but frankly its next to impossible to load this thread at times when more than 200 posts hit it.

I was on a 2 meg broadband today and the board stalled for over a minute to load. That is unrealistic for dailup people.

Also there is a about to be a flurry of things going on and frankly they are very different in regards to being just general.

Neil Carrick
neil@1works.net

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Please go read the earlier threads to understand what is being discussed.

[Jack Brown (151.196.55.158)]

Reposted from Sha on Thread 7


Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:04 pm
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Thank you 149.174 and Jack Brown for seeing that sharing all this makes me feel vulnerable. It is still very difficult. I am not trying to be nasty or negative just hoping to share and help if I can. I have moved on in my life and it doesn't hurt as much but I don't share my experience on a daily basis. I harbor no bad intentions.

E I will pray for you! Keep going strong and use all the experience you've gained to keep furthering yourself. You will make it as many of us have.

Sha

[Anonymous (4.155.42.249)]

Loretta,

There is no way I told you to shut up and go away. Don't you understand that your reaction only proves that you are the victim of an abusive system? A person in a healthy church would NOT react with the vehement anger you are displaying.

I will say no more to you. But my heart is broken for you. I don't know which is sadder, the people who have been wounded, or the people who have their head in the sand.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

I worked in the Bible College and know whom Neil is speaking about, the group is called Safe Harbor.

their website is:
www.safeharbor1.com

Lutherville # 1-410-515-3070
White Marsh # 1-410-893-4600

Erik Sundquist, Clinical Director

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Jack, I agree with you. I like it all on one board. And I have dial-up, but it is worth waiting a few minutes to load it rather than having to keep clicking on different topics to see everything (no offense, Neil)

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

I am a little new to this. It took me awhile to figure out where everything had gone. Someone should leave a message on the other board so new comers know what to do. But I hope Lorretta can refrain from cursing, please.

Sha

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

OBVIOUSLY that was not Loretta. Someone was using her name. That is not her style

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Look at this list everyone!

It is from one of the newer threads.

How did GGWO loose these awesome leaders and teachers???


Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:59 pm
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Who has left MBCS



Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 04:23 pm
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Gail Kirby

Kent Sutorius

Irene Hubert

Ron Kirkwood

Deanna Stoddard

Jackie Gough

June Lowell

Ed Lutz

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

The same way GGWO lost the rest of us here

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

My heart skipped a beat when I saw these names!
Irene Hubert was my mentor before I even went to Lenox. And Pastor Lutz what an amazing man. He made our senior trip awesome. He always had time for us. And we could ask him anything. Mrs. Kirby too. Wow this is too much.
Sha

[Anonymous (4.155.30.126)]

Is it really true that Deanna Stoddard and Jacqi Gough have left MBC&S? I heard Deedee was is in Florida taking care of her sick father, and Jacqi is in NH taking care of her sick sister. Where did you get this information, whoever posted this?

[Anonymous (212.47.129.126)]

it is true. they both left

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

The "ONE MAN PASTOR" System is NOT in the Bible
-by Andrew Strom.



Most churches today are run using the 'Senior Pastor'
model, where one man (-almost always with a degree
fromBible College) does most of the ministering and
is looked up to as "the man of God". Few could deny
that pastors are truly the ones who are running the
church today.



But amazingly enough, in the Book of Acts, which is
the history of the first 30 YEARS of the early church,
the word 'Pastor' is NOT EVEN MENTIONED ONCE. In
fact, even in the whole New Testament the word is only
used onetime - and that is near the bottom of a list of
ministries in the church: "It was he who gave some to be
apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists,
and some to be pastors and teachers..." (Eph 4:11).
-This is the only place where the word 'Pastor' can be found.



There were elders and 'overseers' (-these terms are inter-
changeable) in the New Testament church. But that is
totally different from the position of "one man pastor" that
we have today.



So how did Pastors end up running everything? And what
effect does this have on the church?



Well, when you study history it becomes obvious that we
mostly got this concept fromRome - not from the Bible.
As Beckham said (-quoted in one of our previous articles):
"Using a combination of the Roman governmental and
feudal systems, Emporer Constantine developed a church
structure that has lasted for seventeen centuries... People
go to a building (cathedral) on a special day of the week
(Sunday) and someone (a priest, or today, a pastor) does
something to them (teaching, preaching, absolution or
healing) or for them (a ritual or entertainment) for a price (offerings)."



In most cases, what we are seeing today is the
continuation of this "Clergy and Laity" system that
dominated the church during the Dark Ages. There is
very little difference, really. The titles have changed but
apart from that it is basically the old Roman Catholic
system of professional 'Priests' running everything. We
call them 'pastors' but the position is basically the same.



These are people who have gained a degree fromBible
College, and now we pay them to be our "minister". Never
mind the fact that we are ALL supposed to be ministers!



What this results in is two different 'classes' in the church.
-The "ministering" class and the "churchgoing" class
(or 'laity'). -Which is something that God utterly detests.
He cannot stand His people being divided up into 'classes'
like this. It is the doctrine of the "Nicolaitans" (Rev 2).



But is it really that bad? What harm does it really do?



Below are the specific ways that this "one man pastor"
model does enormous harm to the church:
(1) It puts one person on a pedestal - above all others. In
many churches this veneration of the pastor closely
resembles Idolatry. His word is law and the entire
church revolves around this one man.
(2) This leads directly to PRIDE. The position that we
place these men in is terribly dangerous for them and
for the whole church. It is very difficult NOT to develop
Pride when treated in this way. Pride is the most subtle
and spiritually fatal of diseases. It wreaks havoc wherever
it finds a home.
(3) Control, manipulation and spiritual abuse become
common where power is concentrated in the hands of
one 'venerated' figure. Power corrupts. Flattery corrupts.
Veneration corrupts. And before you know it, people
are being terribly damaged and wounded by the control
and the "management techniques" being exerted from the
top. Then new teachings on "covering" and "submission"
are wheeled out, to lend an air of legitimacy to the
oppression that is being visited upon people. Everyone
is told to 'submit' and not to question. The "one man
pastor" system lends itself to this whole scenario like a
hand in a glove. It is virtually made for it.
.
(4) It turns the church into a bunch of "spectators". In
other words, everybody sits around and watches while the
'professionals' do most of the work. It is their "job" after
all. -This is an absolute disaster. For we ALL have gifts
and callings and anointing from God.



(5) The position lends itself to "robes and titles". Jesus
said to his disciples, "You are not to be called 'Rabbi,'
because you have only one Master and you are all
brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you
have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be
called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ."
(See Matt 23:5-12,). -None of this seems to stop
men from taking on "titles" today.



(6) Many pastors by their nature tend to be "play it safe"
types. They don't like the boat being rocked and they
are often resistant to real change. The fact that today's
church is in the hands of pastors, rather than apostles
and prophets (as it should be) who are the "risk-takers"
of the church, means that it is slow to react and is easily
out-manoevred by the enemy. We desperately need
anointed 'risk-takers' and change-oriented leaders today.



(7) Because the position of Pastor is usually the "only job
going" in the church, it forces many who are actually
evangelists or prophets to become Pastors, just so they
can get to minister. Often they are quite out of place, and
manytimes this leads to disaster.



(8) All of this creates such a load on the shoulders of
the man that is appointed Senior Pastor, that this job
has one of the worst BURNOUT rates in the western
world.



(9) At the end of the day, just like church buildings, the
best reason for rejecting this model of leadership is that
it is simply NOT IN THE BIBLE.



Some people say that having a 'board of elders' who
can hire or fire the pastor keeps all of this in check. Not
so. It may keep the "control" side of things down, but
the mere fact that they feel the need to "appoint a
pastor" just shows how hooked into this system they
really are. It is centuries old, and all we are doing is
perpetuating it.



So how did they do things in the New Testament?



Well, the first thing we need to realize is that the
apostles were not "professionals". Apart from Paul they
had never been toBible College. (-These were run by
the Pharisees!) Most of the apostles were simple
fishermen and tax-collectors. But they had spent MUCH
TIME WITH JESUS. -That was their qualification.



And it is clear that Pastors were never in charge of the
church. It was the APOSTLES who were given that role.
But they never "lorded it over" the people. And wherever
they went they appointed elders or overseers (plural) to
watch over the church in their absence. Unfortunately,
some translations of the Bible use the word "Bishop",
which gives the impression of a 'hierarchy'. But this was
not in the original. As Greek scholar W.E. Vine states:
"'Presbuteros', an elder, is another term for the same
person as bishop or overseer. See Acts20:17with verse 28."
So these were just simple "elders" - that's all.



It was only when the church fell into serious decline and
then into Romanism that the complicated "hierarchies"
began. Before this, it was all very simple. Perhaps one
day it will be so again.



Now, some will want to ask - Does all this information
make me "anti-pastor"? -Not on a personal level. In
fact, I tend to get on with pastors pretty well. I meet
them all thetime. But we have to realize that a lot of
them are struggling inside a system that is completely
unscriptural - and change has got to come.



God bless you, my friends!



Kindest regards in Christ,



Andrew Strom.

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

D.A (68.82.183.197)
Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 08:36 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
152:
You obviously have no idea who C.K is, and I will not uncover this person here, but I can not let this go un said. C.K is one of the most focused people on Jesus Christ, I have ever met in my life. God used a spiritual battle to draw us close as friends and more importantly closer to him. If C.K sees something wrong C.K will pray about it and C.K will say something about it if God leads her, there are no blinders here,
C.K'S eyes are wide open and focused on the Lord!

When C.K tells you there have been personal attacks . C.K is telling you the absolute truth , and believe me CK went through a lot to show God's love and mercy, despite the lies this person blatantly told about Greater Grace and what C.K endured by someone just wanting to get even because C.K would not be apart of the lies and malicious gossip that was being spread about Greater Grace.

D.A

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Andrew Strom,
Please elaborate on exactly how you think the church should be run without a senior pastor. Who would the apostles be that would appoint these elders you speak of, and what kind of training or qualifications would these elders have? Would it be that they had "spent much time with Jesus" as the fishermen and tax collectors did? Meaning time in prayer? And of course we would have to take them at their word that they had done this.
Who would do the preaching? Would the elders take turns and decide among themselves? I'm sure there would be no competition or jealousy there.
Because pastors and teachers is only mentioned once in Ephesians 4:11 does not make it any less the Word of God.
There are no longer any apostles since the church is now established...no apostles to appoint these elders you speak of. But God did give pastors and teachers. There has to be order in the church. Your system would only bring chaos.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

To Lee,
In response to your request this morning that I choose a pen name or initials, I will go by SJ. My IP numbers always change and are the same as other people's IPs so it is a good idea.
Now if you want to speak to me, or tell me off, or even agree with me it will be easier for you! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif SJ

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

I have to agree the boards being divided up this way is just to much jumping around from subject to subject and takes far to much time. It was better when the conversations just flowed. The only ones who are going to bother reading all this our the ones who are not spending any time at all reading anything else. (such as the Bible)

[Elena Chet (64.136.26.225)]

It took me a few days to read over the postings on the site. I'v been praying for the people involved, and of course for the church. Listen, there are no perfect churches. And GGWO is definately not a perfect place (I am a part of it, so that should pretty much do it :-)

This is NOT the point. I am not here to discuss any of the accusations brought up. I am here to ask you - please stop this mess...

The heart of God is never in the fault-digging. It's in restoring...

It seems to me that most people posting here have been hurt. And that was satan's doing. Please, before you go on any further, let God heal you first... When we speak out of our wounds (unless we are speaking and crying into God's ear), nothing good will come out of it but bitterness and more wounds. PLEASE stop hurting each other. It doesn't make any sence, and it's the enemy's instrument of wearing down the saints.

What's wrong with Christ's command "love one another, and by that the world would know that you are my disciples..." How about the spirit of meakness? Unity? Has Christ divided lately?

Sad statement, but some of my Muslim friends visited this site. They were disgusted. Here is their reaction: "You, Christians, say that Islam is an agressive religion. But at least we don't kill each other. Why is it that you who proclame loving God are so quick and willing to cut each other's throats? Is THAT the church you are telling us about? What kind of God do you have?" - Sad, isn't it...

It doesn't matter if people are wrong or right. They stand and fall before God, and stand they will. We are wrong by bringing up their faults regardless if we have the facts or not.

If we bring up other people's dirty clothes, even if we are right, we are WRONG... And help us God if we continue in this way, because now we are at fault and in need of repentance...

Remember, love covers multitude of sin? Remember the commendmant to love each other? If you can't love them as your church, love them as your friends. If you can't love them as your friends, love them as your enemies. BUT LOVE THEM!!!!

Satan hates the church and tries to bring it down. Please do not volunteer for him. PLEASE!!!
I have ministered and been on staff in a couple of GGWO churches, and I've seen them go through trials. And you know, God doesn't really need our help to deal with his leaders. He hits them hard without our assistance if they attempt to lead people astray. Take comfort in this. It is God's church, so let God do it...

How about 2 Chronicles 7:14:
"If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves, and pray, and sick My face, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land."

I want to challenge you. Do you really care about the church? Do you really want to help hurting people? Do you? Then why not humble ourselves, and pray, and see God's mighty hand move?

As of today, May 23, 2004, I will start fasting for the situation. If anyone cares to join me, be my guest.

Here is my e-mail: LenaChet@yahoo.com. You know who I am and you are welcome to look me up in church if you like - most of the time I can be found in the translation area. I am not quitting, and we will see Gods hand in action.

OK. Enough said. God bless you all. My prayer that we learn how to be real friends in time of need - pulling together instead of pulling someone down. Loving people out of their problems instead of pressing them face down into the dirt.

With prayers and respect,
Lena.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Anonymous (64.12.116.66)
Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 07:21 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lena,
I don't think your Muslim friends should be so self-righteous. Their hearts are just as desperately wicked as any other human. Maybe you should show them some photos of September 11th to remind them of what people of their beliefs have done


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

CAN WE PLEASE GO BACK TO JUST ONE BOARD???

It takes more time to check all the subtopics and many times it is just the same posts repeated on all of them

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

Lena: I appreciate your heart and sincerity. Your words show you care and that you have been taught well the gg doctrine. If only it were so simple... My question for you is, if "love covers a multitude of sins" why do we have to hear about all the sins committed against P. Stevens at every service. He might not list the sins, but his messages are all about those who have sinned against him and his fleshly reaction to it. Have you not noticed yet that your own pastor is living contrary to all those beautiful words you wrote? I'm not even referring to any personal, behind the scenes sin I am talking about the attitude, pride, and behavior that we see right from the pulpit! Also, I know it hurts to have muslims and others look at us as hypocrites - but we are just that. We are very quick to turn on each other and hurt each other and that's a problem that has to be dealt with. Will God deal with it? You bet! Can He work if we all ignore the Holy Spirit and keep our heads in the sand regarding the sin that stares at us from the pulpit? Go to church this morning and consider that question while your receive His Word... Thank you.

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

I agree: one board. While I cannot read every day (and I do read the Bible!), this site is not just a bunch of topical discussion groups. It is a fellowship of believers, the likes of which we have never seen before. People should not be sent to different rooms. The fellowship is messy, argumentative, and at times painful, at other times wonderful. Reminds me of a family.

By the way, I don't think anyone would question the ordinary family dynamic that most of us experienced growing up. (I am not referring to severely disfunctional families). Children grow by asking questions and, at times, challenging authority. Families can be messy! Like the family, this board can be messy. For that reason, I can't agree with the following from Elena (even though I really like her general attitude!):

"When we speak out of our wounds (unless we are speaking and crying into God's ear), nothing good will come out of it but bitterness and more wounds. PLEASE stop hurting each other. It doesn't make any sense, and it's the enemy's instrument of wearing down the saints. It doesn't matter if people are wrong or right." (Elena)

I think it does matter. And I found in my family that I had to speak up when I was hurt. I will also testify that when Lee and I left Lenox in 1987, we are indeed hurt and only by talking, talking, talking to anyone who would listen, including God, each other, and friends (like Steve Stevens and Marci) were we able to find real healing.
Jack

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 08:46 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find it kind of sad that everyone on the board in support of GG fails to realize the importance of the truth. Instead the issues continue to be defended and covered up. Being a student in the high school no teachers or staff have mentioned anything. They've just ignored these problems hoping they would go away.

I will be praying for everyone involved with GG. I hope that everything comes out so that it can be addressed. I doubt that anything would be done by leadership to correct these problems after seeing what has happened so far.

I looked forward to finsihing high school at GG but have no desire to return after finding out about these issues. The more and more I look into it I realize there are many of Pastor's teachings that I do not agree with and are just plain wrong.

Please take this into consideration. I know that GG represenatives are reading this. I am not bashing anyone and I don't have any ill feelings toward anyone. I will keep everyone involved in this ministry in my prayers. I hope God will reveal the complete truth so that these issues can be dealt with by someone, by God.

Mrs. Chet, the heart of God is in restoring, but how can he restore something if everybody is busy denying there is a problem and that they need to be restored? As students, are we supposed to learn that it is best to just always look the other way, accept false teachings, and pretend that everything is good? Doesn't seem right to me.

Sincerely,

One UNfooled Highschool Student

(who does have his parent's permission to post to the board, as long as I am respectful. Just thought I'd mention that in case anyone thinks I'm too young to have a say here.)

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Don't be fooled by Macie and Steve Stevens, they are after one thing and that is the pulpit. Steve Stevens layed low while his brother Pastor Paul was sent away for 30 days, then while he was away Steve moved in on his Father and tried to butter him up as the "perfect Son"!! Plaes give us all a break, who is the Son that stood by his Father through all the trials, PASTOR PAUL!!!!

What kind of example do they lead, allowing their kids to drink in their own home, and going out to night clubs every night! What a nice Christian home!

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

For the benifit of dial up readers,

Please stop posting volumes of text from other threads every time a new thread starts. If it means that much to you, just post a brief summary and and tell us where to find it. The same goes for copyrighted articles. Post links and summaries, not the body of the article. Thanks.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Regarding the gun issue from the last couple of days,

I find it hard to believe that anyone on the faculty is illegally in possession of firearms on school property. Can you imagine the legal and liability problems that would cause for the school. I also know along with many others here that there are staff at the school and church who are retired high ranking law enforcement officers who are well trained and able to properly train others in the proper use, handling, and storage of weapons.

For those of you who might be criminals and know who I am, I want you to know that I am well armed and can defend my family and property quite well.

For those of you who are peace loving and think there is no place in the Christian home for firearms, I want you to know that I have no weapons of any kind in my home, nor would I ever consider carrying one.

If you have real knowledge of someone who is illegally packin heat, you should report it either to police or the head of security at the school just like you would at your place of work or in your own neighborhood.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Neil. I think all of your communication with Baltimore has confused the issues for you. Your desire to bring in peace, even though very commendable, will really end up being a tool for the leadership to avoid the real issues that need to be addressed. Example: the confusion of splitting this board is clearly a desire of leadership.

Jack L. I agree with you. Just like a family, things do get messy. For too long now GGWO has been advoiding dealing with their own problems. This has produced cover-ups, deceit and lies. The cycle has not ever been addressed fully. I am under no allusions that this board will cause leadership to look at and deal with "the mess" their decisions have made, but it is a start.


To the West Springfield radio station. Thank you for your imput on another thread, it was insightful.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Neil,

I, on the other hand, think your efforts to date have been very noble and quite consistent with what many people on this board say they want. Only time will tell.

[Javk Brown (141.157.117.164)]

On the one board suggestion;

Again, I think everything ought to be one one board and, if the POSTER chooses to copy it to another one of Neils's folders, he or she can do so as he or she thinks appropriate.

Postings ought to be in a primary place (the current thread) where continuity can be established and maintained. The threads can be ended at approximately 200 postings; as Neil said yesterday, that's about as long as they can get without slowing down the dial-up connections.

Not all readers/posters can easily navigate the board. Let's keep it user-friendly for everyone.

Jack

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.164)]

Who's this "Javk" guy? Oops.

Jack

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Well, now that many of us agree it should be on one board, is anything going to done to change it back?

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.164)]

I think not. It appears that Neil has administrative authority. The yea or nay is his, I guess.

Jack

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

OK NEIL! Put it back to how it was PLEASE

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.164)]

Ouch! In all fairness to Neil, my guess is that Neil is the administrator because he is the owner, in other words, a paying customer (to FACTNet). That gives him the control to "administrate". I think Neil means well to organize as he did; unfortunately, it doesn't work as well as intended.

Jack

P.S. Neil, PLEASE don't take these comments personally (negatively). Your good intentions are noted and appreciated. It's just a few comments on the sudden changes that make it harder for some people to navigate and keep a rolling dialogue going.

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

Jack,
I didn't realize FactNet had customers. I thought it was just a free site for anyone. Does someone have to pay to get a group on FactNet?

SJ

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

The boards are listed in order of most recent posts. If no one posts on the other boards, their existence will not matter.

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.164)]

SJ:

It's free to post and perhaps to start a discussion but donations work wonders. I think organization is great, don't get me wrong. But not for a message board like this. It's been more than once that changes have taken place at important times in the boards history. Uncanny.

Jack

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

I don't think FactNet has paying customers according to this:

About F.A.C.T.Net, Inc.

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SUPPORT. If you wish to support F.A.C.T.Net, contributions are welcome and are tax-deductible, contact manage@factnet.org. Thank you!

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[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

I've been reading the posts and going through the slow, painful process of coming to terms with the realization of the many problems at gg. I was a fervent follower and believer in all that I was taught at gg in many ways because it was the only church I had ever been to. Well, I have been attending a new church for a couple weeks now and "whew" what a breath of fresh air! It is very different than what we are used to, but please don't think it is nice because "there is no cross." It is nice because it is full of believers who want to grow with God, raise good Christian families, and serve their community. For any of you who are still confused, check out some new churches and you might be pleasantly surprised. They won't be like gg, but in many ways (not all) that might be a good thing!

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

It's as simple as clicking "create new conversation" on the index page. No charge, no indentity necessary

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

TO 68.33.60.157,
The problem is sometimes there are many recent posts on different subtopics, and it takes time to keep switching from one to another to read them all

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

I think that problem will only linger for a few days, then most if not all will post on the this thread or its sucessor.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

I agree, we should keep posting on thread 8.

I am re-posting this one from another thread. It is from a Martin L. from a radio station in Ma.

Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 10:11 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who would like to evaluate the Greater Grace World Outreach need only listen to the radio program "Grace Hour" broadcast live from the Greater Grace World Outreach headquarters in Baltimore Maryland. Any objective and intelligent person will be amazed and astounded at the circus act that occurs on this program 5 days a week. I find it interesting that while this program proports itself to be a channel of truth and open discussion, it is full of gross errors, and is nothing more than a highly censored and extremely controlled diatribe, moderated by what I might respectfully refer to as "The Three Stooges".

These three - Carl, and his sons Paul and Steve Stevens, expound their own special and annointed understanding of the word of God above all others. Carl's brand of "Finished Work" teaching is touted as the real truth and his authority upheld as the most high - and although this doctrine seems on the surface to be full of Grace and Truth, it is in reality just another form of highly refined legalism, cloked in religious terminology and seemingly intelligent psychology and scholarship. I do not doubt their sincerity, just the fact that they are sincerely wrong much of the time.

Carl Stevens theology is extremely dangerous and misleading. His program is the epitome of self indulgence to the point that every thing and every message is centered around HIM. If you count the times people sickenly praise HIM on the air, rather than Jesus Christ you would wonder what is going on. Almost every caller speaks in a particular protocal of praise and adoratrion to the "man" Stevens. He is practically deity now, and immortalized by his paritioners who make-up the vast majority of his audience.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the presuppositional assumptions of Stevens theology that is illogical and contradictory to the teachings of the Gospel in their practical application to the believer. His message is "sin-centered", and the outworking of the Christian's life (according to his doctrine)is dependent opon their sucessful administration of their personal behavior rather than dependence upon the full sufficiency of Christ.

Steven's theology is a complex development of erroneous ideas that have been in formulation for over 30 years now. Those that have been his followers and students are undoubtedly immersed in the same fundamental errors to the point of "brainwashing". The need for a critical analysis and exhaustive deprogramming from many of his "false teachings" will be necessary, but I fear this is far beyond the scope of this message board. I will try to address more specifics when possible and welcome open questions that may shed specific light upon the darkness of the illusion and ambiguity of Stevens world.

Letters of interest and correspondance may be addressed to: WCCS - PO Box 462 - West Springfield, MA 01090

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:36 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the benifit of dial up readers,

Please stop posting volumes of text from other threads every time a new thread starts. If it means that much to you, just post a brief summary and and tell us where to find it. The same goes for copyrighted articles. Post links and summaries, not the body of the article. Thanks.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

TO 2 PM POST: If you are going to repost that vicious attack on Grace Hour, why don't you repost the response to it. You probably forgot, so I will:
(64.12.116.66)
Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:16 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Martin L.,
You are so wrong. I listen to Grace Hour often and the doctrine given there is not in error.
You said:
"His message is "sin-centered", and the outworking of the Christian's life (according to his doctrine)is dependent opon their sucessful administration of their personal behavior rather than dependence upon the full sufficiency of Christ."

That couldn't be further from the truth. The message of GGWO has always been the opposite, that it DOESN'T depend on our behavior but on the Finished Work of Jesus Christ. Legalism? Quite the opposite.
You make a sweeping claim that the teachings are false but don't name any. Every message is not centered around Pastor Stevens.
Why are you listening to Grace Hour if you find it so offensive?
The only stooge here is you.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

A list of good churches in the Baltimore area:

Grace Fellowship churches in Timonium, White Marsh and Forest Hill.

Calvary Chapel in White Marsh and BelAir.

The Vineyard in Pasadena.

Hunt Valley Presbyterian.

White Marsh Baptist.


Can anyone contribute others they know??

[COG (141.157.120.72)]

Hi, I was in Lenox from '85 to '87. I attended SSB. I read an earlier post by sha. She wrote about the security booth at the school. What she said about not being able to come and go without stopping at the booth is very true. I remember having to get a note every week from my dorm head stating that I could be out after 11 PM because I had to work until 12 AM. I also found it to be kind of odd that we had to sign out of the dorm every time we left to go somewhere (other than church, school, and the like.)
If anyone has any questions about how things were in Lenox, please feel free to ask them.
I too was quite shocked to see the list of members who have left GGWO. I knew quite a few of them when in was in Bible College.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Linda Canino also left the church.

[Anonymous (68.33.45.60)]

When is the last time anyone writing here led someone to Christ?

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

To 68.33.45.60 at 3:51 p.m.
That is the kind of legalistic works-righteousness that drives me crazy. The implication is that we don't have anything better to do, while better Christians would be winning souls. It also implies that these other practices - guns in schools, spyware, drug abuse, adultery - are not a concern as long as one wins souls.

I'm more concerned at this point with people who have a hard time being led to Christ because they are turned off by the hypocrisy in his followers. I can't count how many times I have had non-Christians resist the Gospel by pointing out foolishness of various Christian leaders.
Jack

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Amen to anon that posted at 1:36 sunday. It is amazing to go to another church and breathe the fresh un-weird LIFE there! It can be very difficult to refrain from constant judging of these non-GG christians, however, for they haven't had the "deep teaching" WE all had (UGH!).
I walked in continual brokeness at first, appalled at my horribly judgemental heart.I was almost unable to recieve from (non-GG) but GODLY sweet Christians who, it turns out, may have a better handle on GRACE than we have had!
Jesus has brought me along in this, praise His name, and now I feel so happy and, in some ways,am learning to be a Christian all over again....Many years of having your church and your leaders and their teachings PRAISED (and others looked at as not as deep ) DOES have an effect on you. I know God is able and WILL help us as we go out in faith with Him to find new church homes.
Pray and He will lead you, as you are willing to have a lot of false concepts thrown out. Unshackled, I hope we cease to be "spiritual snobs" in the larger Christian community and instead be testimonies of the life of Jesus that resides in us.
Thank You, Lord!

[John Krainis (207.5.239.219)]

To Jessica, and "coming to terms" (1:36 pm anon):

That has to be so encouraging for others - knowing that there will be some "culture shock", but that God has been blessing you in other wholesome churches. Thanks to 2:14 pm for the partial list.

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.164)]

Jack Leonard...

Perfect...no one could have said it any better. Thank you.

Jack Brown

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

You mainly got it right.

I asked Factnet to do somethings including making a manner to add topics.

I added the 8th level for general discussion just like before.

I added some new topics because I wanted people to have a general place to read abot them..


The general boards is where I wouod encourage people to post.

This was just a channce for more people to join in the conversation, and for tghose with dialup to listen in.

I think the general board is best for most opics.

Neil

[Jack Brown (141.157.117.164)]

Thank you, Neil.

Jack

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

OK folks GGWO is the middle of many changes. There some obvious staff changes coming. It appears that MBCS will have alomost a whole new staff with the exception of a handful of people left.

The elders of the GGWO ministry are taking actions to hire a third party church confilict group, one of the best in the country, and they are working on doing whatever they can to help those who have been hurt.

I am sure many people think I am being used by the ministry or by those who oppose the ministry but it is not the case.

I am not self appointed. It is my nature to be a peacemaker. I am also really hurt that I now get emails telling things like I should go to hell for my views or that I am asick for defending people like Pastor Paul. Or eeven the better ones like God is going to send a judgment on my life for doing these things.

At some point you wonder who is sane and who in insane.

I am a bit crazy, but to be honest some of the folks on the most extremem sides of these issues really need to seek out some help.

In His Peace,

Neil Carrick

[COG (141.157.120.72)]

Does anyone know why Linda Canino left the church (or anyone else on the list of the names posted?)

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

Neil, we really do appreciate your hard work and, even more, your sincere heart to bring healing and reconciliation. Just don't mess with our board!
Jack

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Has anyone looked at or decided on other schools for next year?

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Jack,

When I added 7-8 you seemed to like it. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I know that you seem to be typing on on those boards now.

I am not the big bad wolfe. I am just a geek.

[Anonymous (4.155.63.124)]

I would still like to know, Neil, why everything is still enveloped in secrecy.

And WHERE IS PASTOR STEVENS in all this? The elders are hiring a third party conflict group - is PASTOR STEVENS involved in any of this? I only hear him make round about references to being persecuted and coming through trials, as his devoted followers nod their heads and sympathize with all he is going through.

When is HE going to speak out about all of this?

And regarding dorm life ....I went to a secular college in the 70's. At that time we had to sign out if we were going to be out past a certain time, and we had a midnight curfew. The college felt responsible for the kids entrusted to them and I, for one, wish things were more like that today. I think the adults in Lenox were concerned for your sefety and felt responsible for you. I do not think asking you to sign in and out and account for your whereabouts was an outrageous request. I don't know about now, but I do know at MBC&S a few years ago, the girls had to let their head of household know if they were going to be out past midnight (curfew) I do not think that is unreasonable.

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

The only major shhhhh is which group the church is hiring. Myself including doesn;t want them bombarded with calls and complaints before they take the job.

I really have nothing to hide.

I posted that Pastor talk to me personally and told me this is what he wanted to do, and that the elders should handle the day to day business in regards to this.

That's pretty simple.

Neil Carrick
neil@1works.net

PS I just got of the hospital so I am going home and taking the night off. If you need to speak to me you can call my cell phone 843-457-7440. Nothing is a secret.

[COG (141.157.120.72)]

To 6:27 PM:
Most of my friends went to secular colleges in the mid-80's. Some of my friends in the dorm had also gone to Christian colleges before coming to SSB. None of them had been required (in both instances) to sign in or out when leaving the dorm. I am not complaining, but simply illustrating one more example of how controlling SSB was. I know it was for my own good, I was only 18.
As far as head of household at MBC&S, I moved here when SSB moved here. I remember all too well the head of household requirement. What ended up happening in a lot of instances (mine included) was that the head of household spent more time trying to keep track of us that she spent on meeting with us, praying with us. In more cases than not, the head of household was more "off" than the girls she was supposed to be "in charge of." My head of household left GGWO 6 months after I did. She called me one day to appologize for not being a good example, and for constantly "running to the Dean of Women to "tell on us."
She was my friend and is still my friend to this day, I told her there was no need to appologize.
I know I sound bitter. I have a lot of examples of things that went on at SSB that I kind of just "pushed to the back of my mind" for almost 17 years. I don't always agree with everything posted here that is against GGWO, but I for one am glad to have found a place to read that other people remember things the way I remember them from Lenox. It is good to be able to "get things out into the open."

[Anonymous (4.155.42.106)]

Neil, I am talking about Pastor Stevens talking to US, the CONGREGATION, openly. Not through the elders. Not through you. To US from the pulpit, OPENLY. How about telling the congregation from the pulpit about the meetings that are going on and the attempts to reconcile? How about telling the congregation how sorry he is for all the pain that people are experiencing? I am not saying that YOU are keeping secrets, Neil. What I am saying is that if not for this board, not too many people at GG would know a thing about these meetings. There are still people at GG who still do not know the extent of what is going on because they haven't heard it from the pulpit and they refuse to listen to anything that could be construed as an "evil report." That is what I meant when I said secrecy.

I still maintain that repentence from Pastor Stevens, and then the leadership, MUST take place first. Anything else will just be a band aid solution; damage control.

Neil, please take care. I am praying for you.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Go here to listen to a radio broadcast of the "White Horse Inn" subject: "Finding a Non-Toxic Church."

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the_white_horse_inn/

The book advertised on the page, "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace," by Michael Horton is a good step in learning what grace is REALLY meant to be about. Search the program's archives for other broadcasts in the "Toxic" series.

And Jack, I only use my gun "whenever kindness fails." Apologies to Robert Earl Kean. Probably a good idea if anyone is going to need to have one in a school that the person be uniformed and recognizable.

[Gail (165.121.192.43)]

As for the public camera issue at stop lights, banks, ATM's and such: does this conversation even have to happen? Every adult knows why they are there: for errant adults who know better, not children who have only been on this earth for under 18 years. Can you imagine an adult tricking a child who is only 14 years old rather than training him (what a novel idea!!) , which is your public trust to the parents who have put that child under your care in the school? Training is minimal decency. Tricking is major deceitfulness. Give me a break. It's called entrapment and it's illegal. Even police in uniform are not allowed to participate in that. Cameras have no place in classrooms. They aren't substitute teachers or assistant principals.

As for the gun at school issue: I'm not as worried about Baker using the gun as I am worried about someone else using it who knows where it is and can get to it. As far as I know, it's illegal unless someone can correct me.

[Anonymous (4.139.15.102)]

Dear 64.12.116.66

First of all thank you for the accurate description of "Grace Hour."

Unfortunately, time and time again callers with legitimate concerns have been cut short for other callers; only to be replaced by "Pastor" worshiping comments.
The thought occured that perhaps the blood of some of these callers might be on the heads of the "Three Stooges." As many shunned callers sounded suicidal and desperate.

Second, thank for suggesting area churches. However, after leaving GGWO while visiting Grace Fellowship encouragement was given to join a small home group. Sounds good right?

WRONG! "Sheperding" a cultic behavior, was encouraged and a part of their doctrine.
Grace Fellowship believer are expected to confess their sins and personal decisions to a "Spritual Leader" for approval or disapproval!!

Here we go again!!

BE CAREFUL beloveds. You are coming out of a VERY controling church. Do NOT jump from the frying pan into the fire. Please do not give up on attending another church though.

Please add Trinity Life Church in Lutherville to your list.

Thanks for listening.

Respectfully,

A Former Member Who Cares

[Anonymous (4.139.15.102)]

I have a doctrinal question:

Why is it that Pastor Stevens is a proponent of Bible School education and mocks secular education?

After all, didn't his own grandson graduate from the University of Virginia just last year?

An interesting footnote: It sounded like he studied finance or business. Pastor Steve spoke of going to the bank where his son worked in Charlottesville for a bible study.

Don't get me wrong, I am all the grandson's opportunity for higher education!
Good for you young man!

But Grandpa appears the hypocrite!

P.S. Was this grandson encouraged to study finance and/or business in order to fulfill Grandpa Stevens expectations. Those to gain skills for the effective "MANAGEMENT" of money found "HIDDEN" within the "family enterprise"?

Just wondering?

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Great Question !

Please see the posting board about the GGWO board of directors Audit Review at the top of the list of posting boards before you sign off as it relates to ministry finances.

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.116.66)]

To Anon (4.155) 5-22-04, 3:19 p.m.

Vehement anger? Cite where I have displayed that. No, it is that I ask questions those on this board can't or won't answer that evokes anger in them and they transfer their emotions to me. It somehow enrages some on this board that I don't agree with them. Yet they accuse those at Greater Grace as being into mind control?!

Spare me your phoney "caring," not when you go on to accuse me of having my head in the sand.

It is an evil tactic: If one doesn't agree with you it ~~has~~ to be that one is deluded, brainwashed, "the victim of an abusive system," and so on and so on, right? That way you can delude yourself into thinking you never lose an argument, right?

Call a spade a spade. No matter how "politely" anyone phrases it, to be told to "cool it," "stop posting," and such is literally to tell me to shut up and go away. I do not intend to do that. Anyone who doesn't want to read what I have to say can just scroll over my messages.

I know, however, that is not good enough for some of you, because some of you know only too well that others might read my messages and, who knows, be persuaded by them. Thus, you want me to stop posting and go away altogether.

BULLETIN! Greater Grace was filled at both services this Sunday. At the evening service Pastor Paul even put in an appearance and sat next to his much-maligned father. Blessings continue to shower down on our congregation, with our young people winning ~~seven~~ first place trophies in music, and others in sports. And good gosh, there were many standing ovations!!! For the wonderful children, for the pastors, and when Pastor called for one for God. No sign of any focus on a single man, no, the standing ovations were generously spread around---AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

No detractor on this board can answer: If Pastor is the wretch described on these boards, why has Jesus fulfilled all the promises He made to Pastor all those years ago?

[Anonymous (4.139.90.239)]

Dear Miss Willits,

Your irrational tirades provide written evidence that Neil Carrick's support group might benefit you. It can be found on the FACTNet Index page.

Please, seek some professional help. You're a mess!

[Anonymous (172.164.28.45)]

Actually they have cameras all over the place where people do not even realize they are there, and no they are not illegal.

There used to be a time when children were actually disclipined at home and people watched out for one another's kids.

Nowadays children murder children.

I am free to my opinion so don't jump down my throat because I don't think like you do.

My children do not go to GGWO. BUT if they had a camera in their classroom - wouldn't bother me. It does not violate their privacy. It is a classroom.
If you had a child tormented in a classroom and the camera caught the bully on tape you would be the first one thanking God for the camera!

Face it, we no longer live in a society where children "under 18" are children. They are committing crimes adults do, even in Christian families.


CK

[Maria T (151.196.137.51)]

I am also re-posting my reply to Talkintruth from Thread #7 and the GGCA thread


Maria T (151.196.137.51)
Monday, May 24, 2004 - 04:27 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Talkintruth...regarding your posting Friday May 21st.

I read your lengthy posting, but I am not "gearing up" to launch a verbal attack at you here on this forum as it was said by someone who posted after you did on Thread #7.

I see you have some issues and concerns, and I can empathisize with your wanting answers and issues addressed. I am not on staff at GGCA, nor do I have children attending there so I can't personally say I walk in your shoes. I do have friends whose children attend there, and I have friends who choose to home school their children, and others who send them to public schools. I don't think any of the Baltimore City schools are model educational institutions. Stories you hear in the papers or on the news about the inner=city public schools scare the heck out of me, kids being passed on grade to grade because they are "problem" children that teachers can't deal with...and then, before you know it, they drop out by 9th grade or so, UNABLE to read or write, more educated about handguns, drugs, and how to survive on the streets... I'm thankful there are Christian schools around. With the right atmosphere and godly teaching, I've seen the difference between students taught at GGCA vs. those of my friends whose kids are in public schools. There is a respect for godly authority emphasized that is not emphasized in public schools.

I attended another church in Baltimore 10 years ago, and they had a Christian School there for a season of time. My friend had all four of her children there. The legalism was enough to choke you. It was far worse than the situation you presented above regarding GGCA as far as the "teachings", the cameras in the classroom, or the way you were treated by the other parents in regards to your church affiliation. In the other church I was in, if you weren't a consistant weekly tither, and a generous giver of offerings, your child couldn't set foot in the Christian school or remain there. Thats the gospel truth too. I would have to ask my friend about the tuition, I don't recall their being any, because of the tithing issue.

I'm sorry that there are some in this body that do seemingly fall all over Pastor Stevens and seem to worship the ground he walks on. I know he does NOT like, or encourage that adulation, in fact at raps at Fellowship Hall over the years I've heard him stop people...and during services too. If they would focus themselves on God and having a vertical with God then remarks like those made like this in reference to people following a man would finally cease. Insecure people follow a man. You can't base that as a reason for not attending a church which you know is true. Besides, "baby" christians do the same thing...kinda like baby birds in a nest till the mommy bird teaches them to fly on their own. Think back to when you were first saved in your church. Wasn't your pastor "Wonderful" "godly"..."annointed"...sure he was and is...we were all there at one point in our lives if we want to be truthful enough about it.

You said something about wanting a meeting when school gets out -- with your husband and your pastor present to address issues. I think its great. Right now the church is opening doors for that very thing, for those who have needs, issues, wounds, and the like...for the opportunity of healing and restoration to come about. Neil Carrick is the go-between for the people on the board and for the church itself. He is working directly with the leadership. I am sorry you fell thru the cracks and didn't get the satisfactory answers you needed, because you said that nobody was available to meet with you.
Email Neil, he will help you out with this, even if you do want to wait till June 8th when school is over.

I'm not telling you what to do in regards to keeping your children at GGCA or to take them out like a number of others state they are going to do. All I can tell you is this...you have to do what you have to do before God, and answer to Him alone...not to any man. I do know that other than your registration fee, you would be entitled to a refund of next years tuition costs you paid already. Sometimes things are misunderstood, and especially with areas of money...especially on this forum in that regard too.

You mentioned guns and added security. I don't think after the children shot & killed in Columbine, or the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist activity, or the recent drive by shootings that had occurred between Maryland and VA that anybody would have a lot of questions if people chose to pack a legal weapon for protection. Security is beefed up more now at the church and for that I am grateful. I'm disabled, I use a walker to get around outside of my home. Even if I wasn't, I still would be fearful walking alone in the large parking lot out front of the church, even with it well lit...its not safe or smart for women to do that alone. In regards to Pastor Stevens having additional security, there are times after services that people rush up to him and smother him!! Most just want to love him up, with his health problems of late, many of us have prayed for his full recovery. At times, due to his back injury, I've seen him walk rather slow taking deliberate steps, and with people coming at him speedily and perhaps even taking him offguard, security is there for his protection and safety. Some may cruelly say that his "walking" is due to an unsteady gait from "drugs" which is bogus. I share common disc problem that he has, and I know those times when the sciatic pain is wicked and your gait is most certainly unsteady -- because of pain, not pain pills!!!

There is one issue I do want to specifically address to you which is the comment that you are withdrawing your children from GGCA based on postings made by me and by Pastor Wood. I am a very directly honest person. Most people are not. They sit in glass houses and throw stones and flip out when those stones rebound on them. I don't worship a man, I worship God. I stand for the things that are honest, just, and true. I admit sometimes I can be a bit too direct with getting my point across, because it angers me when motives are seen(by me) that are not regarding healing and restoration for those that need it on this forum, but they choose instead to slander and malign someone's character, behind their backs when that person isn't present to defend himself or herself.. Like that poster..."Walker" ...whatever the name was...he had a very revengeful and seemingly wicked vendetta for Pastor Paul and stated he would not stop until he paid a price publically for his previous sin. Now if a person repents, what right does anybody have to throw stones at them??? Who are we that we have now become Gods judge and jury for him????/ Thats where my heart is at.

I can tell you that Pastor Wood spoke the truth, he is not here in Maryland, and the only time I have seen him around here is for conventions as he stated. He has been ministering to people behind the scenes. I admire his forthrightness in getting his point across. Neither one of us are out to "get" the people that post here. If you noticed, we too have been lashed out at and spoken harshly to. Because we defend what is right before God it doesn't mean that we don't care about those who are broken and bleeding here on the forum. Thats all I have to say.

Maria T.


If you want to talk privately about this email me at gracekid2@aol.com

[Anonymous (4.139.3.179)]

Dear Maria T

Please spare the message board's eyes and desist from taking up space with your redundant repeats!

Thank you!

[Anonymous (4.139.3.179)]

ATTENTION:

Please refer to:

http://www.factnet.org/discuss/messages/3/2056/html?1085287416

FACTNet Index of all possible chat topics are posted there.

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

Please post from within this:

[Neil Carrick (24.172.44.98)]

This is for general discussion:

[Anonymous (212.47.129.15)]

> I have a doctrinal question:

>Why is it that Pastor Stevens is a proponent of >Bible School education and mocks secular >education?

a. this is NOT a doctrinal question

b. As many times as I heard him speaking on this - he would emphesize the superior importance of Biblical (not necessary: GGWO MBCS ed.) education. I also personally heard him say: Get as much education as you can!

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

This is from a previous thread:

Wood said: GGWO has never taught Grace as a license to live in sin and if you're honest you know that. What we have taught is that once it's been dealt with at the cross, it's over and done with and forgotten. You simply will not accept that Paul has dealt with whatever happened at the cross and that it should be forgotten.

Me: I accept that Paul has ceased the physical activity. He has not dealt with the issue of Alan Lang’s reputation that he assisted in maligning. He has not, therefore established his credibility to hold the office of pastor. Therefore the issue is not closed nor is it “six years old.” As for your references to Rom.11.29, the chapter has to do with election, not the actual employment of gifts. 1 Tim. 3 gives us the qualifications that must be OBSERVABLE in an elder. Verse 2, the elder MUST be above reproach. He MUST be a “one woman man.” These are not qualities one is immediately restored to following an adulterous affair. They are qualities that one must exhibit over TIME, even if the forgiveness and restoration to fellowship with Christ is instant.

Wood said: Additionally, you will not accept the fact that the verses that you continually harp on concerning how to deal with sin are conditional on a number of things.
1) Mt. 18 that YOU are the one having been sinned against.

Me: The words “against you” are only found in the later manuscripts and the interpretation does not square with other passages such as Gal.6:1. It is a good idea never to interpret one passage of scripture so as to make it repugnant to another. (ref: The Thirty-nine Articles)

Wood said: 2) GOING alone, not writing letters or calling on the phone, not posting the details to an Internet forum

Me: The emphasis in Mt.18 is not on the mode of travel but on the confidentiality required in the first phase of the process. It is not necessary that I GO to a specific location to confront my brother or for him to confront me. What is initially required is confidentiality. This requirement was met in this specific instance.

Wood: 3) GOING with 2 or 3 others who were actual witnesses to the sin in question, not talking with others who think they've been injured, not talking about others who have been injured, not publishing on the Internet that no one has been able to do that.

Me: Again mode of transport is not the issue. This requirement has more than been satisfied with the three witnesses I noted previously; the husband, the wife, and the pastor himself.

Wood: 4) GOING before the entire LOCAL church, not sending postcards about a web site, not repeating the matter

Me: Matt. 18 does not necessarily mean the local church alone in this context. See John’s warning concerning false teachers who claimed to be brethren for example. GOING is not necessary as that epistle itself proves.


Wood: 5)Then and only then can the individual be considered as a heathen and tax collector, which for me in the case of a church leader would mean that I simply walk away from that church and get on with my life.

Me: That is not in accord with 1 Tim. 5:20. The leader in question needs to be removed.


Wood: In the portion in 1 Timothy 5, I've already stated that the Greek tense indicates that the rebuke before all is for those who "persist" in sin as the Revised Standard Version correctly translates, not for those who once confronted repent.


Me: The persistence is there. The confrontation needs to be there, too.

Wood: On the basis of those verses, the ONLY one who had any right to confront Pastor Paul was Alan, and that right has now expired because of Pastor Paul's repentance.

Me: There has been no apparent “change of mind” concerning the official GGWO stand on Alan Lang’s character or reputation. There has been no change in the separation of families and friends who will not communicate with the Lang’s because the ones inside GGWO were complicit, along with other pastors and Dan Lewis who perpetrated the charges that Alan was mentally unstable, guilty of mail fraud, etc.


Wood: Your insistence that fellowship be restored is a private interpretation of the portion in Matthew. The word "gained" doesn't equate to restore to fellowship in the sense of in the same church. Were that the case, Paul and Barnabas never were reconciled.


Me: See Paul’s call that John Mark be sent to him and that he was profitable to him in the ministry as evidence of their reconciliation. I never said it had to be in the same local church—NO reconciliation has been attempted to date, especially with the Lang and Hadley families.


And as far as the Langs accepting a “payoff” as their settlement has been called. I invite the gentle readers present to view these passages concerning RESTITUTION:

Luke 19:8,9 Zaccheus promises to return fourfold to those he has defrauded.

Exodus 22:1-12, Lev5:16 For the establishment of the scriptural principle of restitution.

Why did the Langs need restitution? Alan lost his home, his job, his family. He suffered financially because Paul Stevens used his office as a marital counselor as an aid to seduction. Alan’s reputation has been slandered and this has still NOT been addressed by ANYONE inside GGWO. Dan Lewis especially needs to come clean on this one too.

[Anonymous (4.139.3.179)]

Feel better?

[Anonymous (4.139.3.179)]

Preceding question is NOT meant for Cordell but Anon. 212.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

And I know Woods does not want to debate. That's fine. There are other women now coming forward who were seduced by TBS/GGWO pastors. This covering up is not a one off. It is endemic to the organization.

somebonus@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (212.47.129.15)]

to Lena:

thanks for the post! the more I read this thread - the more it seems that this is less and less about God and more and more about ME and MY ATTITUDE of what is going on around ME.

[Dave (4.156.84.126)]

The link below will take you to a webpage
that lists all of the GGWO Subtopics that are being discussed here,
on an individual basis.


http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2056.html

[EDay (64.12.116.66)]

I only found out about this website yesterday. However, I have known there was something wrong with this ministry since I stepped into it 3 1/2 years ago. I am not afraid to say who I am and I'm not afraid of man. If they kick me out an slander me, let it be on their own head, for vengence belongs to the Lord. He,is my "Covering". What I do know, is that people are hurting and they feel cheated and lied to. The purpose of the Body is to heal and restore, not to cause injury. I have been voicing my issues with GGWO since I got here, but until now, it all fell to deaf ears. I have compassion on these people whom I worship with, however. They have been taught (most of them) since the moment of their salvation, that Pastor is everything.

I knew the books of the Bible before I knew my ABC's and I have been teaching since I was 16 years old. I was born and bread on the Word of God in a healthy, biblical church. I have also travelled around the country as part of a military family and have been associated with MANY biblically sound, non-GG, ministries. So what I see and my perspective is different than others here, who were saved in this ministry.

If this message board was created for informing people of facts, I sure am having to weed through a lot of emotional (and ungodly) garbage to find any kind of facts in here. Sure, there's plenty here for shock value, but I was raised to put things through the "Jesus filter"...If Jesus wouldn't say it, you shouldn't either. So, much of what is posted, I just skim for anything relevant and move on. Could we just get to the facts please?

I have kids here. I also have many friends at GGWO who really do love the Lord and have a healthy walk with Christ. I also know there is a lot of "shady" stuff going on. I am glad it is finally being adressed.

This, however, is my one fear. As I see all these Godly people who are so respected and loved leaving the ministry, I fear for the children of those who are blinded. These kids are not stupid. They see what we adults would like to deny that they see. They are hurting as well--at a crucial point in their lives.

Someone said in an earlier post, "All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to stay silent." That is why, for now, I stay...to help ease this horrible transition for the kids whose parents don't see. When all the chips fall, the truth comes out and the members who truly seek God have left, who will be there to see that healing takes place?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

There are so many subtopics right now under Greater Grace, and people keep adding them, that pretty soon it will take forever just to scroll down the list of topics. There are scattered conversations everywhere. Many posts are just repeated under different subtopics. I really think this board has become a confusing mess!

SJ

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I agree SJ.....separate and divide! It's not good.
The only thing to do at this point is to post just on thread #8 and keep it to 200 posts or so. That way the dial ups will be able follow without it taking forever. I for one, would like to follow all the posts as they come in.
BTW, thanks for the initials! It was confusing me!

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

To EDay, You are right, this board is saying alot but it has gotten away from the real issues. Thank you for reminding us to post with the nature of Christ, no matter what viewpoint one may have. Here is a posting from thread one. It addresses the some important issues, that in spite of 3900 posts since, reveals this leadership is not one step closer to repentance and restoration. Let's all pray that God breaks into GGWO leaders this week. They have kept their doors locked to Him for too long. God needs to break in for the sake of the members still living in darkness to what is occuring around them.


Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 09:04 am


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Many of us have the facts, not second or third hand, but the actual facts. We have been lied to by the leaders we are suppose to trust. We know that they were unable to the biblical or even the moral thing: When Pastor Stevens was completely incoherent, could no longer come into his office, could no longer teach ABD, could no longer preach, could no longer walk without help, could no longer counsel a single body member. The leaders wrung their hands and said "what should we do"? Friends of the leaders said "you must go to him, make him get help for his addiction and make him step down from his position until he gets help". They all knew that they had a moral duty to intevene but they could not..why? they were afraid of what he would do to them, they knew he would turn on anyone that challenged him. So they pushed Paul to do it, and guess what? Pastor turned on Paul... and look back at the mess the last 6 months.. Pastor almost killed himself twice .. the leaders are at each others throat's.. it is apparent that this church only works with pastor at the helm. Now they have pastor back (for a short while.. he still is on the drugs, they know it but he's curbed it a bit..but anyone that knows anything about addictions know that the drugs control him not the other way around.. so it is just a matter of time before he is back in the hospital or dead.. that is a reality, it will happen again)..so what does this say about our church? If those of us who know the truth cannot voice our real concerns about what transpired in the leadership this year then just add that to the many points that direct thinking people to an abusive system in place here. There is complete control at the head of this church, no accountablity, leaders that are under are afraid of the pastor, they only enable him.. and will do anything to keep enabling him..including lies and deceit...none of this behavior is biblical or rational!! And to say because we are great on missions we should ignore sin is irrational! We are great on missions because the individual goes overseas, individuals can still go overseas, they don't need a malfunctioning church to do that and guess what? maybe going under a legitimate missions organization that individual would get to stay because some mission boards support all the missionaries not just the leaders! Pray for the individuals in this church, do not pray for the church itself. God is not looking down favorably right now at this organization, it does not reflect His nature at all!

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Lee,
I have dial-up, but it takes longer now to keep switching between topics than it ever did to load one long message board. The problem is that not everyone will just post on #8, they post all over, so you either have to keep checking everything or miss some things. And when someone thinks of a new subject they just make a new category and it will be endless! I really think we should go back to just one board and get rid of all the topics

SJ

[D.A. (68.82.183.197)]

Maria and Loretta, C.K

I am sure you have all figured it out by now as well. If we don't have anything bad to say they don't want you to say it at all. Keep up the Good fight.

D.A

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Concerning the issue with Paul Stevens, and I know this might seem odd coming from me, but I think there is great reason to have hope. I understand that many here don't agree with the posting of the emails. I know we differ on theology. For any hurt caused to Paul's family for the posting of those emails I heartily apologize. This was done not out of malice, but to provide the evidence needed to those who would not believe otherwise. There are still people out there who believe they are forgeries, and who want to continue the cover up. While there are issues that remain and there are those who still need to come clean on the issues surrounding the maligning and slandering of Alan Lang's character, I do see some light at the end of the tunnel in due time.

[Anonymous (4.139.9.97)]

Good idea SJ! We will use #8 from now on.

[Anonymous (4.139.9.97)]

I am a young woman from Maine who attended MBC&S a year ago and left.

I was very concerned about my future as a woman in this ministry.

What chances would I have in this ministry to do anything except marry a pastor or do outreach all the time with other single lonely women?

I'd really liked Jackie Gough. But look what happened to her. She's gone.

Then theres Dean Stoddard. She's a perfect example.

I heard of a woman from Asia who married a man 35 years older than herself after graduating from MBC&S. Is this what I had to look forward to?

I meet a girl last year from South American who graduated MBC&S.
I heard on this chat board that she is churchless with no place to run a woman's ministry and encourage others in the doctrines taught by Pastor Stevens.

There was this other woman I knew who graduated from MBC&S over ten years ago and was leading the MBC&S ensemble. She seemed to live vicariously. It seemed like nobody ever responded to her efforts.
I guess it's okay cuz she was in the geographical will of God. Maybe the pleasure trips overseas for MBC&S made it worthwhile.

Any way what I am trying to say is I was afraid I would have become an old maid like these women or have to marry an old man or something like that so I left. You know I wasn't allowed have any friends that were guys.
I guess this was because of the No Touch Love.

Guess MBC&S and Greater Grace wasn't for me.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

can anyone tell me where and when Pastor Paul has his church in aberdeen?

[Sam Spade (201.128.190.207)]

ON THE PR. PAUL ISSUE,

What is sorely lacking on this board is a GGWO insider who can factually explain decisions such as why he was partially dismissed from GGWO? I have asked this three times without resolve.

Cordell and I have both struggled to accurately present the Biblical teaching on leadership and moral failure. The only reactions are strange personal diatribe and ad hominem. Rather strange for those who consider themselves Word of God believers.

I sympathize much with Talkintruth and, as a GGWO believer, am ashamed of my fellow church member's misrepresentation of Christ.

And I will repeat something that needs to be said continuously so that the enemy does not get a hoof in sideways - none of this is personal or should be. I have the highest respect for Neil, the Leonards, Pr. Wood, Cordell, Maria T. Loretta Willits, The Browns, the Byrnes, as I do also for Pr. Stevens. The Bible commands that we speak the truth in love and that is what most of us on this board are simoply endeavoring to do.

My deepest wish is for the restoration of GGWO and all who have fallen. The only solution is through reevaluating Biblically these areas, and prayer and fasting.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

I have just caught up on the latest posts. Took time off on Sunday. But wanted to praise Jack Leonard for what he said on Sunday 23rd at 8:55am.
That coming here (even though we have to weed through some "stuff") and talking to others or just reading about others who have gone thru the same experience has been so helpful! Talking is the best remedy. And as wonderful and supportive as my husband is (who listens and never judges), its hard for people who have not been thru it to completely understand.

When we recently made a trip to Pittsfied (a town near Lenox) where my mother still resides because she was not able to move back to Maryland when the church left. I went back to the campus. I have never done that in all these years. But it was time. When we left (myself and my husband) I cried. Not just cried but wept!! And he let me. He knew I needed that.

And to COG- Thank you for backing my post about the securiy and the dorms. Just having a curfew (Anon 4.155) is much different than what we went through in Lenox!

One more question-how long has Linda Canino been gone? I was her nanny for some time in Lenox. I was actually a nanny for several pastors and members. She was and I'm sure still is an amazing woman of God!

Thanks for listening!

Sha

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

Hi Maria and Everyone,
Maria, since I tend to be a little long winded when it comes to the school and children - lol....I did post a response to your post on the GGCA board. I only responded to your remarks about the school. I will keep your other points in prayer and post a response.

In Christ,
TalkinTruth

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

Pastor blasted this board in church last night...I think he called it "One-hundred million percent satanic garbage"

[sam spade (201.128.190.207)]

Sha,
I am a GGWO pastor - and just want to say that I understand and thank you for speaking. There is indeed a healing in just talking about our wounds.

You, too are an amazing woman of God.

[Sam Spade (201.128.190.207)]

I would say to Pastor, that this board is like life itself - spiritual warfare. Satan is surely active amongst those who are most vituperative, bitter, and personal in their attacks. He does not want the truth to be known. He does not want forgiveness and grace to reign.

The Holy Spirit is also active here - healing, restoring (cases have been mentioned) teaching.

Yet it is still warfare - we all need to be checking our own hearts and motives.

Warfare is messy at times, but with Christ as our Capitan and guide, we are all victorious.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Thank you Pastor Spade-I don't remember you, but it has been some time for me. I believe this has had a great healing effect for me, in more ways then I even realize. This and other things in my life have brought me to my knees. Not that I don't pray often but I have had the burden to pray, on me so heavily its unfightable.

To Anon. 68.33 in ref. to Pastor Stevens saying that this sight is "satanic garbage". I can't speak for everyone but I in no way shape or form are controlled by satan. I am a born again child of God. I have and will remain as honest and positive as I can with anything I post here.

Sha

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Cordell,
Thanks for that encouraging word. All we have wanted from the beginning, and all we've been praying for is that there be a Godly ending to this very sad story. Seems as though you have been quite involved with all those involved, so if you are encouraged, then I am as well.
Thanks for all your work and prayers.

[Sam Spade (201.128.190.207)]

Sha,
Sam Spade is not my real name- that is the protagonist played by Humphrey Bogart in the movie, "The Maltese Falcon." I use a pseudonym because adressing people by numbers is confusing and odd.

If I put my real name here, you would probably know me, but then others would too who who enter into sin by judging me, so I remain anonymous to keep them from sinning.

Should be an interesting Convention this year.....

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

Now that you type that I do remember reading that before, sorry sometimes I'm a little slow. HaHa!

I don't blame you for staying anon. that is fine.

Wow havn't thought about convention for some time.
What a blast those times were-I can share good memories too can't I?

Sha

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

That's the hardest part about all this, is that people don't understand that yes there are some bad memories. Some scary times and things we didn't understand, still don't and may never. But that there are lots of good memories and people that we loved and grew up with. Laughed, cried, etc.

Sha

[Sam Spade (201.128.190.207)]

That's right Sha. So don't feel guilty about either seeing the errors, nor appreciating the blessings.

Any reason you post anonymously? Just curious.

[Sha (152.163.253.102)]

To Sam Spade- It feels weird calling you that, when I have been taught (from my mother for anyone out there waiting to jump on this one) to properly address you with Pastor, but ok. (we always had to use Miss., Mr., etc)

And for as many errors as there was, there was many blessings! Thats why it seems such a shame to have all this happening again.

I'm less anon than you-Sha is short for Shannon. My nickname.

[Sam Spade (201.128.190.207)]

It honestly doesn't matter to me what you call me, just NOT "Reverend" please. Aaaaack!

My point in these boards is this - let's look at the errors fearlessly and honestly. Let's see where we went wrong. Then let's rescue what that marvellous source of all those wonderful times, the true spiritual fruit, and the reaching the lost that has always been there, as well as the healing of relationships damaged in the past.

Isaiah 61:1-10 - God gave me that yesterday concerning GGWO and the current dustcloud.

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

"The Pregnant Pastor's Daughter"

"Barbara Stevens Where Are You"

"Family Values Are Gone"

Sounds like headlines from a supermarket tabloid!

Am I the only one who feels these subtopics have gotten out of hand? Right now there are about 30, by the end of the week we should have at least 100

SJ

[Jack Brown (141.157.46.135)]

SJ:

Yep, you're right. Too many threads.

JB

[mono (4.139.12.20)]

This is for Lena: Many time you refere GGWO as an abnormal church.

[SJ (149.174.164.83)]

Jack,
Can anything be done about this? It is just going to keep snowballing

SJ

[Jack Brown (141.157.46.135)]

SJ:

I'm afraid it's a done deal. Anyone who wants can "create a conversation" and start a new thread. I know...it's a shame it was changed.

Jack

[SJ (149.174.164.83)]

I am going to check into this. I can't believe nothing can be done

SJ

[Jack Brown (141.157.46.135)]

SJ:

Neil's the administrator. He'd be the one to talk to.

JB

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

Did someone say "Convention should be interesting this year?"

Please define "interesting""

Do you mean:

1. No one will be in attendance but the Stevens groupies?

or

2. Informative, spiritually insightful, a time of revival and REPENTANCE on the part of GGWO leadership?

Please be more specific! Thanks.

[SJ (149.174.164.83)]

Thanks, I will

[pop (80.74.208.52)]

If I go to the convention I have to wear Humphrey Bogart t-shirt. God bless you Sam.

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

to the young woman from Maine that posted today at 1:02-
I don't want your post to go without a response. Your experience at Bible school and at GG as a student refects well the hyper-spiritual tendencies of the scene there and in Lenox in the old days.... Healthy churches have an atmosphere that encourages young adults to transition into adult christian life- in whatever God designed them to do...The pressure to SERVE GOD in only the ways that are praised up at GG (i.e. missionary, wife of a pastor, bible club soul winner,etc.) can be crippling and is terrible for younger folks to be limited to!..The Lord wants us to grow as people- citizens, creative & productive Christian individuals, educated and equipped to be a light in ALL sectors of society!!!..JUST Bible school is, for many, TOO NARROW a focus at the young adult age when men need to recieve education or training so they can be good providers and young women need to develop confidence and nurtue skills,abilities and interests that God gave them. Though the leaders may say to this: "we think those are good things too" ,anyone who was young in the ministry KNOWS the pressure: to be a truly GODLY Christian one needs to have "the highest form of education" (aka Bible school-at GG only,by the way)....
Share your testimonies of this here, people. It helps others who have suffered from this erroneous teaching- maybe even far into their adult life....
Jack or Lee Leonard, I would be interested in your thoughts on this subject.

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

I promise never to use reverend.

Its funny that you should say that.

No one is all these years has ever sought to heal the damaged relationship that not only I have but many, many others. From the past and today.

Only God and myself has ever healed me.

Is anyone really interested in healing those relationships from the past? Really?

Sha

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

Jessica-that definetly was not my experience at TBS.( I mean being prepared for the world or life anywhere as a christian adult). As a girl your hopes were to be a pastors wife or a missionary only after attending college at TBS so you could have the proper "training and tools". And later you were definetly not encouraged to attend or work anywhere outside the misistry. Hense the reason I was a nanny for some time. Finally I just couldn't survive on that and got a waitressing job in town. Don't get me wrong-lots of people worked off campus but the coveted jobs were on campus.

When I left the ministry-I could barely function. My Aunt just let me be for about a week then lit a fire under me to go on. (she is also born again but was never in the ministry) She helped me get registered at a local college and later I got my drivers liscense and a job.

Sha

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

I attended a Grace Hour auction ONCE. Just thinking about what they were selling makes me taste my vommit. Autographed pictures of PASTOR and Stevens memorabilia. Pathetic thing is people were clamoring for this crap.

Not only this but on several occassions I have noticed some in the "Body" of GGWO have little altars to "Pastor" where huge pictures of his mug wearing a bad hairpiece would be positioned over a mantle or prominent wall surrounded by candle sconces.

I can remember one body member telling me, "My time with Pastor is over; others need his portion now." Being fairly new to GGWO I entertained the thoughts, which many "worshippers" would think are heresy, to myself, "HUH? What's this?"

It was completely creepy to me and I knew in my heart at that point I WOULD'NT be "knit" into the body of GGWO.

[Sha (205.188.117.20)]

Sorry Jessica I guess I should say that was definetly my experience. Typing too quickly.

Sha

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

TO 4.139.12.20,

Altars to Pastor? You are crossing the line into the absurd. Just because someone hangs his picture up doesn't mean it is an altar. That is your twisted impression of it. Your phrase "his mug wearing a bad hairpiece" suggests that maybe your view of it is a little bitter and distorted


SJ

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

I find all these threads so confusing and conversations disjointed. I do not agree with the harshness in tone. I feel that those that are really reaching for support are being lost. We really need to go back to one thread at a time. Some of the new people joining this board are sharing their past for the first time and we should make them a priorty over anything else being discussed. Is there anything we can do about this?

[SJ (64.12.117.21)]

64,
That is what I have been asking all day! But of course you wouldn't have seen it,because it is on another thread, and as you say the conversations are all disjointed. I am very frustrated about it too

SJ

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

Jessica: in response to your post regarding the limitations of what young people are expected to do with their lives... it is very narrow and I never understood it. I had the luxury of having a college education and career prior to being saved and attending ggwo. However, now that I have children I found it staggering as a parent to raise my kids with such limitations. I have often thought that God gave us such individual gifts and amazing minds that obviously He wants us to use them. So many of our young kids may not fit into the bible college/missionary mold, yet they are not encouraged to pursue anything else and they just end up insecure and confused. There are so many places in the world that need the light of Christ. Just think of President Bush being a witness for Christ in the white House or Mel Gibson being a powerful witness in Hollywood. These are just two examples. Let's get our kids out there in the world using the minds God gave them, experiencing life with the gifts they have been blessed with and then sharing their love of Christ with others in whatever arena God has called them to. Bible College is also a wonderful option if you are called, but let's not be afraid of what God has before us! He created this wonderul, large world full of opportunity!

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

WELL STATED # 68.34.67.195

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

SJ, Guess I'm at the anger phase of my grieving process so cut me some slack will you?
However, it is the gospel truth! I've NEVER heard of such nonsense as having a picture of your pastor hanging in the livingroom until I came to GGWO. It's weird!!!

[Neil Carrick (24.172.35.4)]

jack and everybody,

I am not the administrator. Factnet added the ability to add another thread because we were constantly growing. I only added new boards like 7.8 and some about the school and like.

I offered a long time ago to create a board where problems like this would not happen and it was shot down.

Now if you want me to restart a discussion group that has a way to make it easy to read the newest threads I will be glad to do so. But we need to be able to do it in such a way that there is some rationale moderation. Like using certain words so that when I go to a internet cafe I don't get blocked out from reading a thread because some kid has said a dirty word.

It wouldn't take a hour to do it. But I think everybody here wants chaos to rule. I am not interested in following these many threads.

I would hope we could have like 5 at the most and most of them would be on a general thread.

Neil Carrick

[Neil Carrick (24.172.35.4)]

I will be glad to create a message board and site for those who are interested in ggwo if I hear a resounding yes.

It will be easy (a lot easier to follow than this) and I will not moderate anything unless it is offensive word usage or similar.

I am more than willing to let people speak freely.

The system would also compensate for those who have dial up.

Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

I would like to bring yet another grievance to the attention of others out in cyber space. Has anyone had the MISFORTUNE of bringing a guest to sit in the Translation Section of GGWO?

Well, my experience was humilitating and an embarassment to my foreign guests.

Lewis Hall proceeded to "SLAM" them down into their seats, chastise them and my self about "HOW" to wear the headphones and was just generally brusk and RUDE to all of us.

He strikes me as an ******* who has no life outside of GGWO and has been given a little power.
Which, by the way, has gone to his bald little head.

My friends, who were not saved at the time, were COMPLETELY offended and indicated that they would NEVER darken GGWO's doors again.

Good for them! I just wish I had been more savy and followed suite sooner! I hope they will find Jesus despite the lack of love demonstrated them by Mr. Lewis Hall!

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

4.139.12.102... i just wrote this on another thread and come back to this thread and see you writing the same thing at the same time... this is crazy.. all these threads! and I do not want another board, I just one want thread here!


Monday, May 24, 2004 - 05:50 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.139.12.102 tell me your story. I understand the need for anonymity here, so don't go into the details if you need to keep your identity private. But I am interested in your experience at GG. Your postings pop out at me because they seem seething. Can you tell me why I feel that way from your postings? What happened to you at GG? You sound like a victim in the anger stage. We all have our story and if you have been in TBS or GGWO you were most likely victimized in some way. But you seem to minimize another's experience at the hands of an abusive church. Do you know why you are doing this?

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

"can anyone tell me where and when Pastor Paul has his church in aberdeen?"

VFW Hall. 2pm Sun. Aberdeen, MD

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

Cordell you are a VERY brave man!

[Anonymous (172.137.137.86)]

Louis Hall is one of the kindest persons I have ever met.


CK

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

Why is Cordell brave? No one even knows who he is

SJ

[Anonymous (172.137.137.86)]

I will also defend the Lutz's that "4" keeps slandering over on the MBCS board. The Lutz's have ALWAYS manifested Christ and invested their lives in many many people. Kathy is a dear, sweet person and her husband is too.

As for the Arbonne motive - that is totally wrong. The progesterone cream has helped 1,000's of women (maybe she should try some - will help that anger and hate). Much proceeds go to the Women's Ministry to help hurting women.

CK

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

What can I say CK? You're experience with these people is obviously different than mine.

I also think Pastor Lutz is a GREAT guy. However, in my experience his wife is as real as a three dollar bill.

As for the "progesterone cream" I did not know Katy Lutz was an MD? I know a woman who was on hormone therapy when "Doctor Lutz" told her to go off it and use Arbonne. This poor woman grew a beard!

Maybe Lewis Hall should use Arbonne on his head to remediate its baldness. Quite frankly I could care less what that man thinks. I just thought someone else may have had a similar experience. After all this is a forum to be released of our anger in a non judgemental and safe place.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

CK,

If you esteem the Lutz, what do you think of them leaving the church? Does it give you any pause? That maybe there is reason for legitimate concerns about the "behind the scenes" leadership activities. And I agree with you on the Lutz's... they need our prayers, they have paid a huge price for standing up for truth. Do you understand they left because of the very issues being discussed on this board?

[Lindsay (205.242.228.7)]

You should all watch what you read and who you believe. I'm so confused, after reading your messages. The only verse I can think of is that Satan is the author of ALL confusion. As for anyone who is joinging Neil Carricks support group, I wouldn't want to take advice from someone who beat there wife.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

Hey Lindsay, Were you there to see Neil Carrick beat his wife? Please don't discredit one of the few people trying to do something constructive to remediate an AWFUL situation.

[Anonymous (141.157.75.224)]

We hope to all use one thread again for everything. This is too confusing. Please use only thread 9.

[Anonymous (12.34.246.36)]

What the heck is a thread?

Lindsay is right. I didn't actually see him hit her but I saw the bruises. Anyway, all of you keep saying P. Stevens needs to come clean if that's the case then so does Neil?????

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Bruises?? Tell me about this Lindsey and for that matter anybody else who knows us.

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Thread 9 can be reached by clicking on "last day" under discussion to the left of the page. Scroll down until you find thread 9

[D.A (68.82.183.197)]

Anonymous (4.139.12.20)
I have pictures of my family, sisters , mother in law, my late father in law on a shelf that is the focal point of my living room. Guess what I even have pretty blue candles on that shelf. Would you say I have built an alter unto my relatives. Give me a break it is called decorating.

I can not believe arguments have gotten so petty as to pick a part what pictures someone has in their home. I have pictures of my pastor and his family on my fridge, as well as pictures of other body members children. we have a picture of our Christian school principal and his son hanging in our hall. Their is nothing weird or sick about this. we are friends with these people and they have become our extended family.
Do you not have pictures of your friends?

You are grasping for something new to complain about which is pretty much the normal here for all who want to attack Greater Grace.

D.A

[Anonymous (141.157.75.224)]

We hope to all use one thread again for everything. This is too confusing. Please use only thread 9.

[Anonymous (24.60.78.215)]

It is obvious there are people who are misrepresenting themselves--trying to make dissenters appear vicious and obsessed with ridiculous and unbiblical doctrines. Also, the proliferation of absurd thread themes is an effort to bring in confusion. I would urge everyone to ignore all the alternate threads and postings that don't ring true.

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

In response to jessica Patton.

I could write a book about my journey from Pastor and Bible School president to Headmaster in a public school. I left The Bible Speaks in 1987 and returned to Boston to pastor my own church (which I planted 8 years earlier). Still, I had the Bible Speaks model in my heart, so we continued to emphasize soul-winning, bus ministry, missions, and ample teaching in the Word of God. The Boston church had a small Christian school where I worked during the day. We were not a GGWO church (as they were now known), but I was always measuring my church against the GGWO model, competing mentally and trying to live up to Pastor Stevens’ standards.

In 1994, I left pastoring and became a high school teacher. This was the most difficult time in my life. First, we had to find another church to attend. That took two years. Again, we were measuring everything against the GGWO model, so if there wasn’t weekly soul-winning, missions, and teaching on the cross, grace, and finished work, it just didn’t seem right. I used to attend conferences and correct the main speakers because they didn’t mention the cross, for example. It took me a long time to realize that the measure of a church is not the vocabulary but the practice. Some churches live grace. They don’t go out recruiting on Saturday nights because they can barely keep up with the stream of new people coming in the doors on Sunday morning. And so on.

By 1996, I knew that at core I was an educator, still a shepherd, but cut out for young people, schools, and teaching. Looking back, I realized that this is what I first did when I came to Christ: I started a Christian school. In Lenox, I worked my way through Bible College by teaching in Stevens Christian School. In later years, I taught daily in the high school, the college, and I oversaw both institutions. In Boston, I spent most of my time in the Christian school. Still, the pulpit messages that were branded in my memory were not of great teachers and administrators, but of Pastors and missionaries. Three times Lee and I tried to go on the mission field; three times God turned us back. That alone made me feel second-class. Stepping down from the pastoral ministry felt like an enormous betrayal.

The worst betrayal was that I was no longer working in Christian education, but instead one of the worst high schools in the Boston Public Schools. Inwardly, I found Jesus there every day and was convinced that this is where He wanted me. Outwardly, I could hear the scorn of former Christian friends who would compare my current work with a former life as Bible School president who traveled all over the world to represent the college. Now I worked in a place where I could hardly mention Jesus or the Bible. How would anyone understand? And why was I so happy?

I love where I work and I have to resist the temptation all the time to justify what I do. I see God open doors all the time to witness, help young people, and extend his kingdom in a very godless place. To be fair, the church that I currently attend shows little appreciation for occupations (callings?) that don’t add to church growth. I believe this is a certain short-sighted problem of church growth ministries. I am almost immune to it.

All this to say that young people need to see that the world is full of possibility and promise. Jesus says, “All the promises of God are yea and amen in Christ Jesus! All the places that the soles of your feet have trodden I have given unto you!” That means Bible College, Christian College, secular college, as God calls.

I think my wife could tell a very similar story in terms of finally listening to the Spirit of God speaking to her individually in her heart.
Jack

[Anonymous (141.157.75.224)]

Please go to Thread 9. We are all over there now.

[Anonymous (64.246.58.26)]

Life is interesting.

[Anonymous (205.181.240.193)]

205.188.117.20 Mitchall Clarke COOLSCOOB315@aol.com 3700 West Nolte Road St. Cloud Florida; Chrissy Slaske cdslaske@aol.com 5616 W. Montana St. Milwaukee WI 53219;

[Anon IPs (205.181.240.193)]

205.188.117.20 Mitchall Clarke \ mail{COOLSCOOB315@aol.com,COOLSCOOB315@aol.com} 3700 West Nolte Road St. Cloud Florida; Chrissy Slaske cdslaske@aol.com 5616 W. Montana St. Milwaukee WI 53219;

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY