Polity amp Church Leadership Issues

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Please use this thread to discuss polity and church leadership issues.

[Elena Chet (64.136.26.225)]

It took me a few days to read over the postings on the site. I'v been praying for the people involved, and of course for the church. Listen, there are no perfect churches. And GGWO is definately not a perfect place (I am a part of it, so that should pretty much do it :-)

This is NOT the point. I am not here to discuss any of the accusations brought up. I am here to ask you - please stop this mess...

The heart of God is never in the fault-digging. It's in restoring...

It seems to me that most people posting here have been hurt. And that was satan's doing. Please, before you go on any further, let God heal you first... When we speak out of our wounds (unless we are speaking and crying into God's ear), nothing good will come out of it but bitterness and more wounds. PLEASE stop hurting each other. It doesn't make any sence, and it's the enemy's instrument of wearing down the saints.

What's wrong with Christ's command "love one another, and by that the world would know that you are my disciples..." How about the spirit of meakness? Unity? Has Christ divided lately?

Sad statement, but some of my Muslim friends visited this site. They were disgusted. Here is their reaction: "You, Christians, say that Islam is an agressive religion. But at least we don't kill each other. Why is it that you who proclame loving God are so quick and willing to cut each other's throats? Is THAT the church you are telling us about? What kind of God do you have?" - Sad, isn't it...

It doesn't matter if people are wrong or right. They stand and fall before God, and stand they will. We are wrong by bringing up their faults regardless if we have the facts or not.

If we bring up other people's dirty clothes, even if we are right, we are WRONG... And help us God if we continue in this way, because now we are at fault and in need of repentance...

Remember, love covers multitude of sin? Remember the commendmant to love each other? If you can't love them as your church, love them as your friends. If you can't love them as your friends, love them as your enemies. BUT LOVE THEM!!!!

Satan hates the church and tries to bring it down. Please do not volunteer for him. PLEASE!!!
I have ministered and been on staff in a couple of GGWO churches, and I've seen them go through trials. And you know, God doesn't really need our help to deal with his leaders. He hits them hard without our assistance if they attempt to lead people astray. Take comfort in this. It is God's church, so let God do it...

How about 2 Chronicles 7:14:
"If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves, and pray, and sick My face, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land."

I want to challenge you. Do you really care about the church? Do you really want to help hurting people? Do you? Then why not humble ourselves, and pray, and see God's mighty hand move?

As of today, May 23, 2004, I will start fasting for the situation. If anyone cares to join me, be my guest.

Here is my e-mail: LenaChet@yahoo.com. You know who I am and you are welcome to look me up in church if you like - most of the time I can be found in the translation area. I am not quitting, and we will see Gods hand in action.

OK. Enough said. God bless you all. My prayer that we learn how to be real friends in time of need - pulling together instead of pulling someone down. Loving people out of their problems instead of pressing them face down into the dirt.

With prayers and respect,
Lena.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Lena,
How many times you refered GGWO as an abnormal church.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Lena,

I remember the time Dr. Lewis went to Russia and you ran up to hug and greet him upon his return. He made a contemptuous face and literally turned his back on you. It broke my heart to see this cruel treatment at the hands of a "Pastor" from GGWO. It was incidents like these that caused me to examine the integrity of these "men of God."

Sorry if it hurts you to know that I saw this. I am really hoping you will tell yourself the truth and flee to another born-again Christian church.

Though I can relate to your loving the fellowship of other believers. The time spent building those friendships was another ploy on the part of leadership to keep us "knit in" so we wouldn't check out with our money and "free" service to Christ. [and their stingy organization]

Please consider what I have written and get out while you still can.

A friend or a VERY close friend of yours.

[Anonymous (80.74.209.79)]

Dr. George Robertson,
Author, Educator, TV persona, York, PA
Tv persona? Is he still with gg?

[Anonymous (207.44.134.33)]

Where does Dr. Lewis stand now?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Lewis cannot afford to change at this point in his life or so it appears.
If he were ever to muster the courage to challenge Stevens on anything he would be out of the ministry.
Lewis is almost 60 years of age. He made repeated decisions to comply with Stevens and look the other way to sustain his position and salary at GGWO along with all the other free travel perks. Lewis also has a extremely slimey past that Stevens has covered in reward for Lewis's loyalty.

[Anonymous (207.44.132.115)]

Well maybe you should go ask him about his trip to Europe?

Maybe not! He might grab his chest.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

LOL LOL

[Anonymous (207.44.134.33)]

Does that mean you know why he went to europe???
..

HMM

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

On Dr. Lewis I'm not yet sure what if anything is really going on, because certain things have recently happened that are quite interesting, and if you want to stay objective than we need to give it some time. By the way I've known Dr. Lewis for over 20 years.

(1) Dr. Lewis is the theological brain behind GGWO -- just look at all the pastoral manuals and doctrinal manuals and so forth -- it's all Dr. Lewis with his assistant P. Niels DeJong. After all Dr. Lewis' doctorate is in theology. But this doesn't necessarily mean that he feels comfortable with everything that is taught at GGWO. He's also a very patient man and if you do say nonsense e.g. on radio like sometimes in the case of the Stevens boys, then Dr. Lewis if he's on the air with them, he will "creatively" and very directly correct them in a second -- that happened earlier this year several time when Dr. Lewis was on the air with Steve Stevens.

(2) Dr. Lewis takes care of the missionfield and he visits the different outlets (GG churches) around the world to see how everybody's doing and to address local issues in the foreign field, etc. to assist the local pastors there in their daily efforts of the ministry. So, in his case traveling is a necessity and although he may enjoy visiting with the pastors and churches around the world, I know for a fact that he is a very modest man who often stays with e.g. the local pastor instead of a hotel, etc. and he's very efficient in his travels. But I also know that his travels are very strenuous in the sense that his trips are no pleasure trips at all as it's usually continuous counseling and teaching on a rigorous travel schedule.

(3) One statement he made a few years ago was when he said that GGWO cannot be duplicated. Whatever that means and I found it a little odd. I also know that Dr. Lewis decides who gets an affiliation with GGWO and who doesn't, and who gets ordained in GGWO and who doesn't. He of course consults with CHS (P. Carl H. Stevens) and others on these issues.

So Dr. Lewis is a very powerful leadership figure in GGWO and he's very much involved in GGWO. Regarding his salary I just know that years ago, during the 90s, he received a check from Steve Taylor every month and that was his only cash salary back then, and perhaps by some other businessmen at times, and it wasn't that much money -- it was a small amount. And he lives in a really small house outside of Baltimore in a blue-collar neighborhood -- really nothing special.

It also seems as if Dr. Lewis is concerned when there are some sort of financial problems amongst church members as for his part he hates to see financial improprieties and he can get very "angry" when he sees that someone has been taken advantage of.

Dr. Lewis has his doctrinal convictions, but he has been a friend to many and he's been kind, but you can't approach him with foolishness, gossip and so on, because he has very good discernment and he won't be fooled.

I also know for a fact that Dr. Lewis has apparently protected a number of sincere and fruitful pastors with their churches who came from outside GGWO and who wanted to affiliate with GGWO, and he told them that in their case they would be better off if they didn't seek such affiliations. Take your guess what that means.

Dr. Lewis is hard to figure out at this point in time, because on the one hand he seems to be sold out and loyal to CHS and GGWO who has been with CHS and GGWO/TBS for well over three decades or so, but then he's also a very intelligent individual who is not easily fooled. And he's firm on his convictions and he's a gentle soul at the same time who has been a friend to many. And his life is one of constant giving and caring. But in the past I know of a number of odd incidents that are a little strange to figure out, and that doesn't mean anything wrong went on, these incidents were just so different that what the man represents in general.

Only time will show what is really going on, and maybe once CHS has passed away we will see the reality of things as these will be revealed.

[Anonymous (64.246.58.26)]

Well Put:
Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 01:07 pm

My understanding is that all of the above is true.

I think however that it is well known that timing of his last trip included a need to get away from the foolish situation at hand in Baltimore.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

68.229.25.178

What Seminary is Dr. Lewis's doctorate from?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

DAN Lewis does not have a real doctorate. He has an honorary "D.Hum." from Clarksville School of Theology. That's the same diploma mill that issued Carl H. with his D.D. and L.L.D. The D.Hum. is an honorary doctorate in humanities. Dan Lewis is a graduate of Grand Rapids School of the Bible and Music as is Bruce Stevens.


Dan Lewis is also the one who told me that Alan Lang was a liar, a criminal who GGWO intended to seek prosecution against for mail fraud, and that he was mentally unstable. He said that Paul Stevens never had an affair. He knew the truth all along, as he has done about everything that goes on inside. He is an enabler. His doctrine, like Bill Reed's is old school Chafer and Scofield dispensationalism that holds that repentance is unnecessary for salvation and is not part of the preaching of the gospel.

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

To nonotone June 20 - 01:22 pm

Re. Dr. Lewis's doctorate:

I think it was "Gordon College" in Mass., but I'm not a 100% positive as I'm currently only able to try a recall from my memory. My files are all packed up right now as we're in the moving process, but I should be fully unpacked in about 2-3 weeks or so -- and if you remind me then on this issue I'll most certainly check into the files then to make sure.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Actually I think Dr. Lewis has a few real degree's.

I may be wrong but it seems he made up for some possible lack of "lettering" a decade ago.

There is no question the man is talented in theology. The book about leadership has some great Baptist theology and polity behind it.

Niels DeJong is not only smart but lettered well.

Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

To Cordell June 20 - 01:37 PM

Carl H. Stevens doctorate:

Yes, you're right in the case of CHS -- he got his "honorary" doctorates from the Clarksville (Tennessee) diploma mill a very long time ago. I don't think CHS has ever finished high-school as far as I know -- so legally it would be impossible to get a genuine doctorate -- of course the "honorary" titles are given out like awards from all kinds of institutions to donors and so forth for special recognition. Bill Clinton received over 1,600 such doctorates during his term as President -- every time he visited such a place, he got an "honorary" doctorate.

BUT regarding Dr. Daniel Lewis I'm pretty sure that he has also a genuine doctorate in theology and I really think it's from "Gordon College" -- but as I said in my previous post, I might be mistaken. If you do research on the net I'm sure you can find it and I know I have it in my files to which I will have access again in about three weeks after I unpack all that stuff.

Regarding DISPENSATIONALISM:
We need to differentiate between ultra-dispensationalism and just simple balanced biblical dispensationalism. As we all know, Bill Reed is little out there on that subject as its one of his favorite theme which allows him to differentiate himself from the normal Christian pack and it's some sort of "illumination/revelation" he apparently has, aside from a lot of other weird doctrines Bill Reed preaches as we both know, and in fact as a lot of people know -- so we just ignore him, because we know it's not truth found in the Bible.

Charles Ryrie wrote a good book about this subject "Dispensationalism" (of course C. Ryrie comes from Chafer's Dallas Theological Seminary as we all know -- so there might be some influence, but Ryrie does excellent research and he's very precise).

Regarding REPENTANCE that's a doctrinal issue and has nothing to do with the subject of Dr. Lewis' position in GGWO, etc.
BUT based on the Word of God the only condition for Salvation is to believe (trust) that Jesus Christ is the only Savior, which means that a person has to believe that Christ was the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. In turning our trust to Christ for Salvation as we see a need for a Savior, we have changed our minds (metanoia - repented) regarding our sins (especially the sin of unblief) as we realize that without Christ we're lost as there is no other valid sacrifice for our sins, but only the Finished Work of Christ on Calvary's Cross. HE paid the debt we couldn't pay. And repentance (change of mind) is an act of the will as we're inspired by the Holy Spirit as we hear the Gospel and genuine Faith is created.
Needless to say that a person who turns to Christ for Salvation has repented of their sins at this very moment as they turn form their sins, mostly the sin of unbelief in Christ being the only Savior, now in genuine Faith they turn to Christ as the only Savior. When after salvation people are occupied with Christ then the things on earth will grow strangely dim as we sing in that beautiful song.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

folks,

I would like to again empasize that I don't believe that either Bill Reed or Daniel Lewis would consider themselves "scholars" on the level of Chafer or Ryrie (or for that matter Scofield). As far as I know, Bill Reed has not yet graduated from MBC&S (I heard him ask for a "Graduation Pending" sticker to put on his Int. Convention pass a year or two ago - when MBC&S Allumni were getting stickers with their graduation year at the registration booth).

FWIW, Both Pastor Reed and Dr. Lewis seem far more occupied with advacing GGWO methods of confrontational soul-winning and investing in people then they are in egaging in Theological debate.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

egaging? make that engaging

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

BILL REED wants to be a theological expert and that's why he's always trying to find "new" truths or illuminations and revelations, so that he can differentiate himself from the pack somehow to be seen as this great "leader." The problem is that with his pseudo-intellectual approach he always falls into one trap after another. Then he gets corrected by Baltimore and soon thereafter the same story repeats itself.

Bill Reed is also never satisfied with anything as he is a critical person by nature. When he was in Las Vegas he said several times that if the church wouldn't grow spiritually as he thinks it should as he sees so little hunger for the Word, then he'll quit and move e.g. to Africa or some other third world country where there are more "open" people (meaning more available souls who he could control and excersice his "pastoral authority" over). And in fact, Bill Reed tried to get something going in Guyana -- yes that's right you heard correctly, right in Jonestown -- but that didn't work out either.

And what concern his primary occupation of "soulwinning" is nothing else but an attempt to reel people into his church, which is now in New Orleans, and to send them off to Baltimore into Bible College for the next phase of deception. Sounds initially actually good if you didn't know the background and the details.
But in the case of Bill Reed you have a guy who wants to be the Pastor/Teacher at home base -- that's just one reason why he started his Missionfield America gimmick which should empower local GG churches to grow.
And every person sent to Baltimore by Bill Reed which he usually drives himself to Baltimore to "introduce" them to the GGWO leadership, is just another notch in his belt and gives him another foothold to accomplish his goal of some day overtaking GGWO Baltimore -- at least in his mind that is, which he has also expressed rather carelessly at times in casual discussions.

Other than that, Bill Reed is a control freak with an out-of-control temper at times. You can see him steaming -- geez -- and you think what's his problem. But he's skillful in talking a lot about Grace which seems so comforting, but as he always needs to balance Grace which he has admitted over and over again, then he comes in with his legalistic concepts and this or that. And the "balance" to Grace is just given, according to Bill Reed, so that people won't take Grace as a license to sin.

I realize that we all grow in Grace and Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and there are phases that we go through, but if you claim to be a pastors' pastor as Bill Reed does and at his age of around 50 or so, and as the "authority" he proclaims himself to be, then something isn't clicking.

There's lots more to say about Bill Reed which is evidenced in his "doctrinal" exposes and his tapes, and then if you put a number of weird incidents together with his actions and his philosophy, you realize over time that he's just another modern-day "refined" cult-leader. The way he controls people's minds is usually only found in the worst of religious cults. It's subtle most of the time and he has mastered that art. But once someone steps on his toes and sees the deceptive strategies he, Bill Reed, applies, then you got the worst enemy in Bill Reed and he runs around marking people who disagree with him, all over the place. I've seen how dozens of lives were destroyed by this man and I wouldn't go near this guy even if you put a 45' to my head.

So there with Bill Reed you have the whole package of false doctrines, legalism, mind control and the usualy "reeling" in of souls who are have normal human needs and there's the knock on the door with Bill Reed right there to serve that need. And innocent victims are being railroaded and by an initially apparent nice-guy image, and they fall for it until it's too late, and you're hooked as we've discussed in other postings on this Website on how somebody becomes a GGWO member. The whole process is quite subtle, and Bill Reed is a great student of CHS (Carl H. Stevens) and has learned well from him, how to establish yet another local cult here an there.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"Regarding DISPENSATIONALISM:
We need to differentiate between ultra-dispensationalism and just simple balanced biblical dispensationalism. As we all know, Bill Reed is little out there on that subject as its one of his favorite theme which allows him to differentiate himself from the normal Christian pack and it's some sort of "illumination/revelation" he apparently has, aside from a lot of other weird doctrines Bill Reed preaches as we both know, and in fact as a lot of people know -- so we just ignore him, because we know it's not truth found in the Bible.

Charles Ryrie wrote a good book about this subject "Dispensationalism" (of course C. Ryrie comes from Chafer's Dallas Theological Seminary as we all know -- so there might be some influence, but Ryrie does excellent research and he's very precise).

Regarding REPENTANCE that's a doctrinal issue and has nothing to do with the subject of Dr. Lewis' position in GGWO, etc.
BUT based on the Word of God the only condition for Salvation is to believe (trust) that Jesus Christ is the only Savior, which means that a person has to believe that Christ was the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of the whole world."


There is no such thing as "balanced biblical dispensationalism" because this is an oxymoron.

Believing is NOT a condition TO salvation, believing is a RESULT OF regeneration as is REPENTANCE. Faith and Repentance are the conjoined twins of Regeneration. Regeneration is a sovereign act of God AND God also, before you object, sovereignly employs preaching as a means to call us to himself.

Gunn and Crenshaw have responded to Ryrie as has Vern Poythress. See "Dispensationalism: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow" Footstool Publications AND
"Understanding Dispensationalists" P&R Publications. Also Keith Mathison, Dispensationalism: Wrongly Dividing the People of God, (Phillipsburg, NJ: P &I R Publishing, 1995)

I would be very surprised indeed if Dan Lewis has a doctorate from Gordon. But, okay, surprise me.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

And no number of real "doctorates" change what I said before:

"Dan Lewis is also the one who told me that Alan Lang was a liar, a criminal who GGWO intended to seek prosecution against for mail fraud, and that he was mentally unstable. He said that Paul Stevens never had an affair. He knew the truth all along, as he has done about everything that goes on inside. He is an enabler."

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Was this related to the 'individual' who sent out mailers to pastor's wives!

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

clearing the garbage to the bottom.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY