Does the spirit of this song offend you I have read His fiery gospel writ in rows of burnished steel As ye deal with my contemners so with you My grace shall deal Let the Hero born of woman crush the serpent with his heel Since God is marching on

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Does it? It has liberalism, feminism and civil rights stamoed all over it.

It has Unitarian Christianity stamped on it too.

But is its message wrong.

Is the author of the song most likely in hell?

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.27.39)]

I will need the author's name so I can look it up on my list, then I will get back to you...lol

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Her name is Julia Ward Howe. The song is "Mine eyes have seen the glory"...or "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" Her husband was one of six conspirators who helped finance John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry in 1859, for which Brown was hanged. The chief senatorial investigator of the raid was Sen. Jefferson Davis. The raid was quashed by U.S. Colonel Robert E. Lee. This woman also began the practice of Mother's Day as an anti-war statement. She belonged to a group which supported the Bolsheviks who later spawned the Russian Communist revolution. She was a Unitarian.</FONT>

And the guy who wrote the original pledge of allegiance was a socialist. That's just the facts.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Its on Maria and many of her tribes list.

Pit of hell stuff you know what I mean?

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Jim is darn impressive.


He wrote:
'Her name is Julia Ward Howe. The song is "Mine eyes have seen the glory"...or "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" Her husband was one of six conspirators who helped finance John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry in 1859, for which Brown was hanged. The chief senatorial investigator of the raid was Sen. Jefferson Davis. The raid was quashed by U.S. Colonel Robert E. Lee. This woman also began the practice of Mother's Day as an anti-war statement. She belonged to a group which supported the Bolsheviks who later spawned the Russian Communist revolution. She was a Unitarian.

And the guy who wrote the original pledge of allegiance was a socialist. That's just the facts."

He is right.

The song is a mix of Unitarian radical Christian viewpoint, and feminism, a anti slavery statements.

Give Jim the entire bonus point collection.

I am impressed Jim.

Darn impressive!

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Read the book "The Secret Six." It will open your eyes wide.

Senator Jefferson Davis was a military hero of the Mexican War, he also served as a commander in the Black Hawk war in which he was responsible for the commissioning of a young officer who'd come from Illinois--Abraham Lincoln.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Jim I heard about the book. I live in the south you know.

I have become something of a Quaker of late and went back and read some of the early American stuff again and its ideas in regards to Christianity.

A real sad deal is how so many people believe that we are a nation founded upon Christian principals.

Well we are, and those principals are no the kind of Christianity that Fundementalist or Conservatives. I about freak when I hear a fundie quote Jefferson.

Neil typing 80 miles north of Fort Sumter

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">From a Presidential address to the people of the nation, 27 February 1863:</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"It is meet that as a people who acknowledge the supremacy of the living God, we should be ever mindful of our dependence on Him; should remember that to Him alone can we trust for our deliverance; that to Him is due devout thankfulness for the signal mercies bestowed on us, and that by prayer alone can we hope to secure the continued manifestation of that protecting care which has hitherto shielded us in the midst of trials and dangers. In obedience to His precepts, we have from time to time been gathered together with prayers and thanksgiving, and he has been graciously pleased to hear our supplications, and to grant abundant exhibitions of His favor to our armies and our people."</FONT>

The author?

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Here some information on the song, for the next time you sing at church, maybe you will think about it if your a conservative or fundementalist, or if you are from a tribe who has ill feelings towards blacks or women (not saying that tribe is GGWO so please don't go there:

About 1856 William Steffe of South Carolina wrote a camp-meeting song with the traditional "Glory Hallelujah" refrain. It started with the words "Say, brothers, will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore?" The tune had such an infectious swing that it became widely known.
Early in the Civil War, a regiment stationed in Boston included a soldier named John Brown. This regiment using Steffe's tune sang about the fiery John Brown of Kansas who shortly before had made his stand against slavery, but directed it as a jest toward their contemporary John Brown.

This version, using the words "John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on," soon became popular among the Union troops. In December 1861, Julia Ward Howe heard this version being sung, and at the suggestion of a friend, she went back to the Hotel Willard in Washington... and wrote the new words for Steffe's tune, now known as "Battle Hymn of the Republic." This stirring poem was published in The Atlantic Monthly in February, 1862, and soon the words of Mrs. Howe of Boston, sung to the tune by the Southerner, William Steffe, became synonymous with the Union cause.


William A. Ward (ed.), The American Bicentennial Songbook, Vol. 1 (1770-1870s), New York, NY, 1975, p. 236


Lyrics as reprinted ibid., pp. 236-237;
omitted stanza (in italics) as reprinted in C. A. Brown (revised by Willard A. Heaps), The Story of Our National Ballads, New York, NY, 1960, p. 181


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
CHORUS:
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps,
His day is marching on.
I have read His fiery gospel writ in rows of burnished steel!
"As ye deal with my contemners, so with you My grace shall deal!
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,"
Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him; be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me;
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free!
While God is marching on.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Who Jim?

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

President Jefferson Davis

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Dang! Jim that is pretty scary.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Either of you ever read Thomas Paine?

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">February 7, 1864 General Order No. 15
I. The attention of the army has already been called to the obligation of a proper observance of the Sabbath; but the sense of its importance, not only as a moral and religious duty, but as contributing to the personal health and well-being of the troops, induces the Commanding General to repeat the orders on that subject. He has learned with great pleasure that in many brigades convenient houses of worship have been erected, and earnestly desires tha every facility consistent with the requirements of discipline shall be afforded the men to assemble themselves for the purpose of devotion."</FONT>

The commanding general and writer?

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Common Sense? Or his anti-religious stuff? Yes, both.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I thought Common Sense was fascinating, and was stunned at frst by all his anti-church stance...I had always been told the nation was founded by highly fundamentalist Christans....what an eye opener.

Ben Franklin is hero of mine...I especially loved his sarcastic wit and avante garde ways. Just a rebel at heart I guess.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Did you like his advice on how to choose a mistress?

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

The above commanding general and writer was of course Robert E. Lee.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Don't recall it off hand, but I am sure it is rich. I remember how he died...and that while in Paris he insisted upon sitting naked before an open window during storms for "air baths".

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Got to love our founders. Men who were very interesting to say the least.

When I think how we could have ended up if the conservatives had, had their way we still be part of the crown.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

The "Old women" letter, I think is what you are referring to Jim, no? I always thought that was hysterical...and that it scandalized so many for decades....*LOL*

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Advice to a Young Friend on Choosing a Mistress:

My dear Friend, I know of no Medicine fit to diminish the violent natural Inclinations you mention; and if I did, I think I should not communicate it to you. Marriage is the proper Remedy. It is the most natural State of Man, and therefore the State in which you are most likely to find solid Happiness. Your Reasons against entring into it at present, appear to me not well-founded. The circumstantial Advantages you have in View by postponing it, are not only uncertain, but they are small in comparison with that of the Thing itself, the being married and settled. It is the Man and Woman united that make the compleat human Being. Separate, she wants his Force of Body and Strength of Reason; he, her Softness, Sensibility and acute Discernment. Together they are more likely to succeed in the World. A single Man has not nearly the Value he would have in that State of Union. He is an incomplete Animal. He resembles the odd Half of a Pair of Scissars. If you get a prudent healthy Wife, your Industry in your Profession, with her good Œconomy, will be a Fortune sufficient. But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones.
Benjamin Franklin

[Alex (12.183.1.168)]

The pledge of allegiance was written by a baptist minister named Francis Bellamy.He was forced to leave his boston church the previous year because of the socialist bent of his sermons.He was also on the massachusetts state education board and is credited with organizing the states columbus day celebrations in 1892.He crafted a pledge that school children could recite aloud in front of a flag,a pledge that would reflect his socialist beliefs.The phrase "under God" was not part of the original pledge, that was added by President Eisenhower in 1954.

[Nancy Curra (172.131.227.77)]

I am not sure about alot of things but this is one of my favorite songs. *Sigh* I suppose I'm off again.

But when I hear this song I get a picture of the Lord Jesus stomping on satan, so I love it.

Romans 14:5 "Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind."

Until a person is convinced by the Holy Spirit about things in his life, we have no right to say a word, but love people into the Truth, not judge or condemn them for how they think.

Romans 14:10 "Why do you criticize and pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you look down upon or despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God [acknowledge Him to His honor and to His praise]."

To each his own in song, if it ministers Life and glorifies God to those who want that, then so be it.

People are free to listen to what they want. They must be convinced in their own mind by the Holy Spirit about everything in life.

And believe it or not when I was first saved God used "worldly" music to draw me to him. We just changed the words and got a kick out of replacing Jesus' name in the lyrics.

What did we know, we just got saved and were on fire for Jesus and just looking for Him in everything.

And God used it.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">The original Pledge was recited while giving a stiff, uplifted right hand salute, criticized and discontinued during WWII. The words "my flag" were changed to "the flag of the United States of America" because it was feared that the children of immigrants might confuse "my flag" for the flag of their homeland. The phrase, "Under God," was added by Congress and President Eisenhower in 1954 at the urging of the Knights of Columbus.</FONT>
The Strange Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance
by John W. Baer

[Anonymous (12.183.1.168)]

I'll take socialist christian world history for a thousand,Alex.

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.27.39)]

Nicely said Mom http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (12.183.1.168)]

To bad it didnt have any relevence to the thread.Now dont go gettin all upset.Just my opinion

[Maria T (205.188.117.20)]

Hey Jim love your posts.

Battle Hymn of the Republic is one of my favorites. So glad you shared what you did about it. Unfortunately the blind computer geek has now classed that beautiful medley as part of my "list" that he has taken over.

I won't be addressing his assinine requests anymore.

Interesting thing about Ben Franklin and the mistress!! I had heard there were writings of his in regards to that issue, but never read it before. Thanks Jim it made for interesting reading today.

Nancy...what you wrote was right on. Glad to hear your point of view. Don't think you are "off" for what you wrote. Scriptures right on target.
I never implied people couldn't get saved from non-christian music.

What can one expect from a former GGWO person gone baptist, unitarian and now perhaps Quaker? No wonder he appears to have a few lost screws, he doesn't even have his theological thoughts intact!!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Roberta...I love your sense of humor meant to tell ya that. Tried to email you it didn't go thru can I please have your email addy again?
(Thanks).

Maria T

[Anonymous (172.131.227.77)]

As I don't see the relevance of this thread to the purpose we are here. not getting upset, just my opinion http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

My email is srfern@verizon.net

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

It was created as part of last night's carnage.

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.27.39)]

I don't think anyone needs to see the relevance...lol...obviously you enjoy reading it if you type in it...haha

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

ROTFL~!!

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

OK Maria,

You need to read how it was original written! I put the more biblical and deeper song at the bottom of this post for you.

For your knowledge I did start this thread, and it wasn't for you. It was for people on both sides of the fence.

BTW the order of my Theological dirift has been Christ, Christ, Christ.

My vocation was Bible Church, Unitarian, GGWO, Baptist (SBC &amp; CBF), EFCA, and then I worked as a Lutheran organization, then later I have been working with Baptist and Congregationist.

My theology is very mixed and I like it like that. I have a interest in the Quakers and early congregational and pilgram church thinking.

Carl Stevens is a birth right Unitarian. That does mean he is a Unitarian in theology. His mother was one.

He used over the years many expressions by Unitarians and I have to admit often very well. In fact maybe better than the original writer had intended.

The song I brought up is of great interest to me.

Because it draws similar thoughts between heaven and earth.

Jesus died for us, let us die so men could be free is a reference to slavery and the civil war.

Born of women is a reference to womenhood and its stregth.

Neil

Here is the original version that Julie Howard Ward wrote (I think it is pretty cool):

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.
He is trampling out the wine press, where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He hath loosed the fateful lightnings of his terrible swift sword,
His truth is marching on.

I have seen him in the watchfires of an hundred circling camps
They have builded him an altar in the evening dews and damps,
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps,
His day is marching on.

I have read a burning Gospel writ in fiery rows of steel,
As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal,
Let the hero born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Our God is marching on.

He has sounded out the trumpet that shall never call retreat,
He has waked the earth's dull sorrow with a high ecstatic beat,
Oh! be swift my soul to answer him, be jubilant my feet!
Our God is marching on.

In the whiteness of the lilies he was born across the sea,
With a glory in his bosom that shines out on you and me,
As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
Our God is marching on.

He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, he is succour to the brave,
So the world shall be his footstool, and the soul of Time his slave,
Our God is marching on.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

This is the song that came before it. It is about the rebellion that Robert E. Lee was comander of, and they later hanged the leader.

John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
His soul is marching on.
CHORUS:
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His soul is marching on.

He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
His soul is marching on!

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
His soul is marching on!

His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
They go marching on!

They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
As they march along!

Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
As we are marching on!

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Now Maria the relevance to this thread is simple.

But since you don't share....

Neil

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Maria,

I love how seem to have not only missed the point now you will go and try to change you theology to avoid people repeating what you said.

That is so sad.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

there are alot of secular celebrities that may sing a song that sounds like its from church or a christian song , but that don't make them a Christian .

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.27.39)]

"Secular Celebritites" ?

Who are we to say who is saved or not?

I don't believe that because you sing a "secular" song as you say that the person is not saved. Remember as Christians we all have our own convictions.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Confessing anybody deserves to be given the benifit as to there claims ot the faith.

Neil

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Eeks I should said that Pastor Stevens is a birth right Unitarian and that DOESN'T make him a Unitarian.

Neil

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Sorry about that http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

a tree is known by its fruit

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

read up on false religions and see what unitarian universalist cult is about ,they are also pushing the gay marriage agenda

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Yes a high percentage of them were founding fathers.

Here is a partial list of some of the famous UU's:

Horatio Alger (1832-1899), writer of rags-to-riches books for boys.
Lousia May Alcott (1832-1888), author of Little Women and other books.
Tom Andrews, U.S. Representative from Maine, 1991- 1995.
Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906), organizer of the women's suffrage movement.
George Bancroft (1800-1891), founder of the U.S. Naval Academy.
P.T. Barnum (1810-1891), well-known showman, owner of the Barnum and Bailey Circus, and a founder of Tufts University.
Clara Barton (1821-1912), founder of the American Red Cross.
Alexander Graham Bell (1847-1922), inventor of the telephone; founder of Bell Telephone Company.
Henry Bergh (1811-1888), a founder of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
Ray Bradbury, science fiction writer.
William Cullen Bryant (1794-1878), author and newspaper editor.
Luther Burbank (1849-1926), American Botanist of the early 20th century.
Robert Burns (1759-1796), Scottish poet and songwriter.
William Ellery Channing (1780-1842), abolitionist, founder of Unitarianism in America.
William Cohen, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 1979-1997.
Nathaniel Currier(1813-1888), lithographer, partner of James Merritt Ives.
e.e.cummings (1894-1962), 20th century American Poet, noted for his unorthodox style and technique.
Charles Darwin (1809-1882), scientist and evolutionist, author of Origin of the Species.
Charles Dickens (1812-1870), English novelist.
Dorothea Dix (1802-1887), crusader for the reform of institutions for the mentally ill.
Don Edwards, U.S. Representative from California for three decades.
Charles William Eliot (1834-1926), president of Harvard, editor of the Harvard Classics.
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), Unitarian minister, philosopher, essayist.
Edward Everett (1794-1865), president of Harvard, governor of Massachusetts, UU minister.
Fannie Farmer (1857-1915), cooking expert.
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), scientist, writer, statesman, printer.
Margaret Fuller (1810-1850), a feminist before her time. Leading figure in the Transcendentalist movement and an editor of The Dial, along with Ralph Waldo Emerson.
William Lloyd Garrison (1805-1879), abolitionist, editor of The Liberator.
Horace Greeley (1811-1872), journalist, politician, editor and owner of the New York Tribune, champion of labor unions and cooperatives.
Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909), Unitarian minister and author of The Man Without a Country.
Bret Harte (1836-1902), writer, author of The Luck of Roaring Camp.
Nathaniel Hawthorne (1804-1864), 19th century American novelist, author of The Scarlet Letter.
John Haynes Holmes (1879-1964), co-founder of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (1841-1935), lawyer and member of the U.S. Supreme Court, 1902-32.
Julia Ward Howe (1819-1910), composer of Battle Hymn of the Republic.
Samuel Gridley Howe (1801-1876), pioneer in working with the deaf and blind.
Abner Kneeland (1774-1844), advocate of land reform, public education and birth control.
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882), poet, author of Paul Revere's Ride.
James Russell Lowell (1819-1891), noted 19th century poet, anti-slavery leader, and Unitarian minister.
John Marshall (1755-1835), Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.
Herman Melville (1819-1891), writer, author of Moby Dick.
Samuel Morse (1791-1872), inventor of the telegraph and Morse Code.
Florence Nightingale (1820-1910), British nurse and hospital reformer.
Thomas Paine (1737-1809), editor and publisher of Common Sense.
Theodore Parker (1810-1860), a renegade Unitarian minister of the mid-19th century and a leading figure of the Abolitionist movement in the Boston area.
Linus Pauling (1901-1994), chemist, won the Nobel Peace Prize, 1962.
William Perry, former Secretary of Defense
Beatrix Potter (1866-1943), author of Peter Rabbit and other children's stories.
Joseph Priestly (1733-1804), discoverer of oxygen.
Paul Revere (1735-1818), silversmith and patriot.
Benjamin Rush (1745-1813), signer of the Declaration of Independence; physician, considered to be the "Father of American Psychiatry."
Pete Seeger, songwriter, singer, and social activist.
Ted Sorenson, speech writer and aide to John F. Kennedy.
Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965), Governor of Illinois, candidate for President, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N.
George Stephenson (1781 - 1848), English engineer, invented the first locomotive.
Sylvanus Thayer (1785-1872), engineer, founded U.S. Military Academy.
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862), essayist and naturalist, author of Walden Pond.
Kurt Vonnegut, writer, author of Slaughterhouse-Five.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Here is a short list of Famous UU Politicians:


Abigail Adams*
John Adams*
John Quincy Adams
Ethan Allen
Chester Bliss Bowles
Harold Hitz Burton
John C. Calhoun
Joseph S. Clark
William S. Cohen
Paul H. Douglas
Emily Taft Douglas
Thomas H. Eliot
Edward Everett
Millard Fillmore*
Benjamin Franklin*
Horace Greeley*
Hannibal Hamlin
Thomas Jefferson*
Edward S. Mason
Wade McCree
Maurine Neuberger
Lucius Paige (1802-1896)
Thomas Paine
William J. Perry
Paul Revere*
Josiah Quincy (1722-1864)
Elliot L. Richardson
Leverett Saltonstall
Francis George Shaw
Col. Robert Gould Shaw
Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)*
William Howard Taft*
Daniel Webster*

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Here are the women: (BTW Pastor Stevens mother isn't on the list but she deserves an honorable mentioned because she must of loved her family based upon what Pastor Steven's has told, and she did love her bible.

Yes this is a who's who of some of the most important women.


Abigail Adams*
Hannah Adams (1755-1821)
Jane Addams (1860-1935)
Louisa May Alcott (1832-1888)*
Blanche Ames Ames (1878-1969)
Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906)*
Emily Greene Balch (1867-1961)
Clara Barton (1821-1912)*
Antoinette Brown Blackwell (1825-1921)
Elizabeth Blackwell
Paul &amp; Mary Blanshard
Harriot Stanton Blatch (1856-1940)
Olympia Brown (1835-1926)
Florence Buck (1860-1925)
Celia Burleigh
Ida M. Cannon
Alice Cary (1820-1871) [Works]
Augusta Jane Chapin (1836-1905)
Maria Weston Chapman (1806-1885)
Lydia Maria Child (1802-1880)
Martha Sharp Cogan
Maria Cook (1779-1835)
Bernice Brown Cronkhite
Anna Shaw Curtis
Dorothea Dix*
Emily Taft Douglas
Abigail Adams Eliot (1892-1992) [more]
Martha May Eliot
Sallie Ellis (1835-1885)
Sophia Lyon Fahs
Fannie Farmer (1857-1915)
Margaret Fisher
Margaret Fuller (1810-1850)
Anna Tilden Gannett
Elizabeth Gaskell (1810-1865)
Caroline Howard Gilman (1794-1888)
Charlotte Perkins Gilman (1860-1935)
Frances Ellen Watkins Harper
Sophia Amelia Peabody Hawthorne (1809-1871)
Clara Cook Helvie
Lotta Hitschmanova
Edith Holden (1871-1920)
Mary Austin Holley (1784-1846)
Julia Ward Howe*
Helen Hunt Jackson (1830-1885)
Lydia Ann Jenkins (1824/4-1874)
Margaret Laurence (1926-)
Michael Learned
Mary Rice Livermore (1820-1905)
Dorothea Livesay (1909-)
Amy Lowell (1874-1925)
Josephine Shaw Lowell
Mary Tyler Peabody Mann
Harriet Martineau (and more)
Charlotte Masaryk (1850-1923)
Vashti McCollum
Maria Mitchell
Judith Sargent Murray [another]
Maurine Neuberger
Florence Nightingale
Mary White Ovington (1865-1951) [more]
Cecila Payne-Gaposchkin
Elizabeth Parker Peabody (more)
Lydia Pinkham, business woman
Sylvia Plath (1932-1963)
Beatrix Potter (1866-1943)*
Olive Higgins Prouty (1882-1974)
Aurelia Henry Reinhardt
Malvina Reynolds
Samuel and Sarah Ripley (1783-1847 and 1793-1867)
The Russell Family (Lady Frances Russell, Bertrand Russell, Lord John Russell, Francis Russell)
Mary Augusta Safford (1851-1927)
Lillian Steichen Sandburg
May Sarton (1912-1995)
Caroline Severance (1820-1914)
Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley (1797-1851)
Lucy Stone*
Emily Stowe*
William Laurence Sullivan (1872-1935)
Caroline Veatch
Kate Gannett Wells (1838-1911)
The Weston Sisters
Mary Wollstonecraft (1759-1797)
Frances Wayland Wood (1903-1975)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Monday, July 19, 2004 - 11:59 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
February 7, 1864 General Order No. 15
I. The attention of the army has already been called to the obligation of a proper observance of the Sabbath; but the sense of its importance, not only as a moral and religious duty, but as contributing to the personal health and well-being of the troops, induces the Commanding General to repeat the orders on that subject. He has learned with great pleasure that in many brigades convenient houses of worship have been erected, and earnestly desires tha every facility consistent with the requirements of discipline shall be afforded the men to assemble themselves for the purpose of devotion."

The commanding general and writer?


Robert E. Lee

[Jack Brown (70.16.28.132)]

Thread subject aside for the moment, Rob't E. Lee was an officer and Christian gentleman of the highest caliber and beyond reproach in his personal and professional life. While history offers solid testimony of the misguided intentions of the South's right to secede and, even worse, to keep the institution of slavery established (sorry, but I'm a Massachusetts Yankee and Abe was the only one that really got it), there is left little doubt of the broad and unmistakable presence of the true Christian element in that Army. I'm aware of an account of a freed slave attending a Sunday sevice in Bobby Lee's church in Richmond immediately after the end of the war. The black man boldly came forward to the communion rail to receive the sacrements. No white man or woman would join him until General Lee came forward and knelt next to him. Remarkable act of humility and reconciliation. Pitiful that he was stripped of his citizenship for the rest of his life. U.S. Grant should have rescinded that while president.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

US Grant kept his slaves till the end of the war because his wife complained that good help was so hard to find. Lee set his free before the war began and corresponded with them for the rest of his life--they were missionary church planters and seminary founders in Liberia.

[Jack Brown (70.16.28.132)]

P.S. Grant should have retired after the war. Good general, terrible president...one of our worst.

[Anonymous (170.97.67.91)]

Neither Grant nor Lee should have had slaves if they were good men. Abolitionists were in high gear by the time of the civil war. To have slaves was a choice made by both men, not a way of life of which they knew no other.

Talk about splitting hairs.

And Lee was such a great guy that the government (Lincoln's) took his land and smacked a cemetary down in the middle of it. It wasn't until around the 1930's that Federal Government compensated the family for the taking, and the compensation was a mere pittace for all of the land Arlington National Cemetary is sitting on. You'd think being distantly related to Martha Washington would have given them more pull...

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

And those that kept the prison camps...were they great Christians too?

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

bandwidth bandwidth bandwidth, eh 24?

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Roberta,

How many times have you copied the same message to multiple threads?

I did:

two posts in one thread, not same post in 8 threads.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta actually says something. She may disagree with a post, but she has never resorted to manipulation of the environment in order to attack another person. She has never brought a personal vendetta against someone at the expense of the board.

To quote JD Skeet -

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[JF (24.153.221.161)]

"Neither Grant nor Lee should have had slaves if they were good men. Abolitionists were in high gear by the time of the civil war. To have slaves was a choice made by both men, not a way of life of which they knew no other."

And the abolitionists were as full of crazies and violent people then as the environmentalistas are now. They did not lend credibility to their cause. You are a bit anachronistic in your thinking. You may want to pick up RL Dabney's "Defense of Virginia and the South," written after the war to understand the thinking of 19th century Southern Christians.

[Anonymous (4.155.63.14)]

To "24-88-43-233" or should I address you as the starter of this thread, Mr. Neil? I have been following factnet for a few days now, reading the many posts here. I have to say, you of all people should not even be the "pot" calling the "kettle" black! You are obviously mentally unstable. Your "mixed theology" theories are reflective of someone highly confused as to where he stands spiritually.

You attack Roberta over a bandwidth issue? Brother (if indeed you are a brother) your happy meal is sorely lacking many french fries. You sadistically delight in beating on people that don't agree with you or challenge you in any way. You just don't know when to quit, do you. There are many inconsistencies in your posts. Scripturally you are "way out there" like someone who doesn't know his head from his rearend. Your basis of your theological studies stem from some cult like organizations (and I don't mean TBS/GGWO either).

Do you take medication on a regular basis? I read in previous posts that you have mental/emotional problems/issues. You have an obvious distain for any woman with a level head on her shouldars and you zero in on those as targets to inflate your ego even further.

Just because someone takes a stand on this forum doesn't give you the right to play God. This forum isn't about you, but you seem to act like a four year old child anytime someone questions your motives or involvement with factnet. Your obviously childlike rantings or should I say "baby" like temper tantrums of this week attacking different posts shows me that you have a great deal of growing up to do. Many before me have chided you to "butt out"...stay home and take care of your family..leave the posts to the adults here. Perhaps they meant well trying to be kind to you before you shot yourself in the foot again.

I for one am twice your age. I don't care for your personal taste in music. I think as a man (?) professing to be a christian, let alone used in a pastoral capacity that you have zero knowledge whatsoever as to just how much that hardcore heavy metal rock and roll music damages the psyche. I have seen you get your back up at the mention from another poster sharing their conviction that it stemmed from the devil. For your information, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Slayer,Agnostic, Death Metal, Metal Church, and Biohazard have been used in satanic rituals over the last 20-30 years. You, sir are grossly misinformed and the bashing you did to that poster was downright mean. What gives you the right to say the things you did to a lady, judging her for expressing her perspective in regards to the relevancy of the multiple (idiotic) threads you have started?? Then in a childish tirade you started those multiple threads thinking you are going to push your ugly ignorant compromised christianity on everyone here in an attempt to make her look like an ass, when, in fact, it was you that posters here thought was the "ass" for doing it.

Since I have always posted anonymously and call myself the "OLD TIMER" on occasion, are you now going to start multiple threads challenging me now? I hope you would to further ingrain it into our thoughts that you are definately double minded and unstable in your ways.

I also noted not many rose to the defense of that woman when what she put as her experience with how that kind of music did indeed deal with the occult, and, the barbaric sacrifices they did while that music was playing and their heads were messed up with drugs and alcohol. It is a known thing even among the unsaved that delve in the occult that their choice of music is the very music you defend because "God's name" is mentioned in a lyric or two here and there.

You then threw it in her face about Rich Mullins in an attempt to show the world that you have some kind of intense knowledge of music. I would concentrate my time more in the word of God if I were you because you obviously do not live in humility and meekness. After all, you are supposed to be a man of God, someone in a pastoral role, and yet the words of your mouth that stem from the meditation of your heart present a completely opposite picture indeed.

I think you owe that woman and the other women who stand up for what they believe on this forum an apology. As a "christian" man you should overcome your obvious inferiority complex that you show every time a woman on this forum expresses something contrary to your limited thinking.

I guess tomorrow when I peruse the forum you will have started your childish ranting again and will have another 10 threads dedicated to the "OLD TIMER's OPINION." Son you need to take a chill pill and grow up. I wouldn't pride myself that I know the in's and out's of the music of the world. When you go to heaven it will be nothing more than wood, hay and stubble.

OLD TIMER

[Anonymous (4.155.15.7)]

To Maria

My apologies for not rising to your defense the other day when your posting was being challenged. I wanted to speak my mind then, especially when so many threads with your name on it turned up.
In all honesty I was too angry at him at the time.
You have done nothing but stand up for your convictions, and they do line up biblically. I have the utmost of respect for you as a sister in Christ.

I may be "old fashioned" in my thinking, and I mean not to cause any debates with other posters here. I wrote what I said in my above post figuring that youngster needed a dose of the medicine he dishes out.

I apologize for his idiosyncrasies and his carnal demeanor, and for the fact that he rudely attacked your physical appearance in an attempt to show his manhood, when indeed he showed his lack of respect for you as a woman. I was amused at your tenacity, you didn't let him slide, addressing his need for diapers made my day and I thank you. Precious little in the world today gives me the chuckle like that remark of yours did. Please don't think that all of us brothers in the Lord here think that way towards women. This one in particular should publically apologize to you since he publically attempted to humiliate you.

God Bless you sister. Come on back and post some more.

OLD TIMER

[Bob Brinton (151.203.178.253)]

In regard to the slavery issue (and I'm certainly not in favor of it), it should be remembered that some slave owners treated their slaves very well. In fact, some slaves chose to stay with their former owners when they had become legally free. Everything I've heard or read about Lee has been positive. It's too bad that he couldn't have been involved in some kind of governmental effort to bring a proper working order to the south following the war. Lincoln was assassinated five days after the war, and the country was quite a mess for a long time. Well, I suppose you could say it still is. The heart of man and all that...

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

To Old Timer,
Thank you for bringing out the truth about the heavy metal and hard rock music. Don't be surprised now when you are called legalistic and narrowminded for actually having standards and convictions about something

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Jim/Cordell/Whomever said: "And the abolitionists were as full of crazies and violent people then as the environmentalists are now. They did not lend credibility to their cause.You are a bit anachronistic in your thinking. You may want to pick up RL Dabney's "Defense of Virginia and the South," written after the war to understand the thinking of 19th century Southern Christians."

The same can be said about modern Christianity, but this is still no reason to not seek Christ. (And the fact that there may be crazies in the Environmental movement today does not change the underlying principle that it is bad to take a dump where you eat.) However, these men did not have to rely on the zealots to inform them, the British Empire ended slavery in 1833 and France did the same in 1848. They had the example of other "Christian" countries that had abolished slavery to guide them.

And BTW, there is nothing so profound or wise about your observations that makes me value your advice as to what I should read, think or do. And your need to attack other people's intelligence and character during factual and philosophical debates is nothing I want to emulate.

If you have a valid argument, then make it, but stop telling people what they can do to be more like you, as if that is the fatal flaw in any theory they may posit. The arrogance in assuming that people don't share your opinion because they don't know as much as you do and don't think about an issue as you do is really astounding. It must be hard to maintain that kind of ego, especially in light of the fact that you admitted here that you were wrong about what you believed when you were in TBS/GGWO for 20 years. It was 20 years, right? And I am sure you were just as aggressive and nasty to those who opposed your beliefs during those years, right? But now, apparently, you know the RIGHT answer to every question under the sun, and your way of addressing any issue is the only right way to think about that issue.

In fact, the more I think about it, you and Carl H. Stevens are very similar in personality and ego, but I've no more interest in your advice than I do in his.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Maria got slammed here for saying people were in hell, many of which(majority of which) are alive and well, some, in fact are many confessing Christians.

There is a evil influence in the whole entertainment industry.

BTW the Pastors here who don't like that idea from GGWO need to look around. It is not the beat but the very culture of the whole music industry. Country music traditional side has lost a lot of the hard time drinkers of late.

Maria speaks about her appearance, then speaks evil about others, and expects that those attacked should be silenced. Frankly if you go after somebodies mental state than post something about how fat you are, than get ready to be called to the mat.

I don't think it makes much sense defending somebody who actually went so far as to attack others first, then said people were in hell, and called people satanist basically of who she has never met, never seen their children, doesn't know if they go to church, what they profess about Christ, and think that God lives outside the world of music.

OK now defend her ideas about people being in hell who are proffesing Christians, and very much alive.

Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

NIC if anybody believes something is not of God that is fine.

But to start saying in lumps people who are alive are of the devil or in hell when they are alive is childish.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

more

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

To (64.12.117.20),

You poor thing. Did I hurt your feelings? Oh I am a terrible nasty person for actually having the audacity to think that I could be right about anything at all rather than giving every idea, philosophy, political system, and religion equal value and respect under the sun. Doh, silly me!

You not only advocate a victim mentality but you propagate revisionist history as well! “These men had the example of Britain and France…” Which they saw on CNN? The British and French PAID slaveowners for the loss of labor they suffered. Those countries were not geographically divided the way ours was. Not everyone had the same view of an ‘indivisible’ nation the way Lincoln did, and very few on the Southern side who fought were actually slaveowners, nor was their cause slavery. The US Government decided on military action instead of legislation and the South decided on impetuous secession instead of making a stand in the Congress.

One reason I hate revisionist history is because it is related to relativism and postmodernism that accepts and promotes pseudo-science like evolution and ‘tolerance’ by advocating the normalizing of homosexuality, transgenderism, and even bestiality. (I refer to Peter Singer of Princeton.) You want to be in that camp? Fine you join ‘em.

You don’t like my advice? Fine don’t take it! Just don’t get on here and expect me to bow to your overextended sensibilities and insults. As far as attacks on character, I usually reserve those for those who won’t be accountable—those who actually lack character. If you think because I said someone’s approach was anachronistic and made a suggestion to read a thing was an attack on their intelligence then you are mistaken.

Yes, I spent 15 years being wrong about Carl Stevens and have spent an equal amount of time studying, arguing, listening, writing and pursuing correction of the error I was taught at GG. A few others here share that experience. You are so bloody typical of the people who mistake confidence for arrogance. What if you actually placed as much value on theological study as you did on the study of say—law for example. Would you trust a lawyer for with a fee of $125 per hour or better who didn’t know his stuff? Why do you expect theologians and historians to have a lesser more ‘waffly’ standard? Your bad litigation won’t take you to hell (maybe your ex-spouse will make you think you are there) but your bad theology will definitely do just that!

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

My now, there's a leap in logic. Disagreement with Jim/Cordell/Whomever regarding any historical point means that you must promote pseudo-science like evolution and advocate tolerance for the normalizing of homosexuality, transgenderism, and even bestiality; AND you are going to Hell. Wow! Who knew the difference between heaven and hell was history class?

You know, it's not "poor me," it's "poor you and anyone around you". You're a manipulative and abusive person, and you, without a doubt, learned that at Carl's feet, and now you can't shake it. And before you start feeding everyone some bull, I'm not saying you're abusive because of what you believe, I'm saying you're abusive because that's who you are. My guess is that you've been abusing people your whole entire life and justifying it because you think you're the only one who knows what's "right." Just like Carl.

You know, you could write until your fingers drop off and nothing you say will matter because you treat people on this board like crap.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Anon 152 You need to learn how to read English. Not only are you a victim, you are illiterate as well.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

(64.12.117.20) Skeeter why don't you just put your name tag back on? Think you're not safe?

[Bob Brinton (151.203.152.166)]

You know guys; Jim has had strong disagreements with many of us (myself included). But if you look at all of them, he doesn't always disagree in the manner you're suggesting. Perhaps the character or attitude of your own posts has something to do with what kind of course his arguments take. I think he's dealing with issues and doctrinal integrity. I don't see him as arrogant. He just has strong convictions which he's done thorough research to develop and refine. That doesn't in itself make them undeniably right; but he has as much right as anyone to state them. He doen't just blurt out a lot of stuff without thinking. He's deeply considered these things. Bob

[Anonymous (170.97.67.115)]

Et tu, Bob?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Jim...why so mean? You are sounding abusive.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.152.166)]

Anon 170.97; I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't expect Jim to agree with all that I think; and I'm not offended when he doesn't. We're all wrong about some things. I'm not perfect. I don't expect him to be.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Were I as abusive and ego driven as you are, Jim/Cordell, I am sure I would view everyone as a victim or potential victim, also.

It's very typical for abusers to blame victims for the abuse they dole out. I'm sure it's very convenient for you to say "you have a victim mentality" every time someone tries to make you accountable for your behavior.

But let me make this perfectly clear, it is NOT your position on history or theology that is objectionable. What is objectionable is that you are incapable of respecting other people's boundaries, you think you are entitled to wound and destroy as long as you feel justified, and you are incapable of empathy. Just like Pastor Stevens.

As for me being a victim, you won't find a single person who knows me that will support that assertion. But the fact that I am aggressive doesn't mean I will tolerate abuse and lies. Were you truly a confident person, the abuse and character assignation would be unnecessary.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

205.188.117.20 Are you so bent on being hurt that you take offence at every little thing? Can you not take part in a heated discussion without continually being "wounded?" What is perfectly clear is that you are not capable of reading plain English. What is perfectly clear is that you just plain don't like me. I am really ok with that. It happens. I am not here for a popularity contest. Some of you are like witch-hunters desiring to find abuse in every sentence written here. If you want to form an opinion you may do so, and I will as well. My opinion is that if you can not stand the heat of vibrant disagreement, then keep your little fingers still--click that 'x' up at the top right corner of your screen! You have filled up several posts above full of nonspecific blather.

I also find it completely fascinating that you are so capable of doing psychoanalysis online. I have yet to call you a name, cast aspersions on your character, or question your birth legitimacy. You have done nothing but attack me personally (which is certainly your prerogative) and have made no specific references--just general bla bla bla about 'boundaries' 'wounding' and 'destroying.' You have done nothing but tell me how much like Carl Stevens I am. Now who's the abuser, really? If ever there was a black pot, go look in the mirror, sweetie.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.149.220)]

To refuse someone the right to disagree is abusive. Jim welcomes you to disagree. He's not trying to spiritually clone himself here. He's stating his own convictions and the reasons for them. It's all very simple and clear.

Roberta also gets attacked for stating her beliefs. It's okay to 'attack' the beliefs, but not the person. Many times she has been accused of abuse and ill intent; and those things are not true of her. If you're going to disagree with her, try to stick to the 'rules' of argumentative logic. Don't change the subject and attack things that have nothing to do with the matter in hand. Play fair and be good little boys and girls. We can all get along and love one another. Don't we want to each be different? Shouldn't our outlooks vary on details? State what you have to say, and only get angry when the Spirit actually leads you into it. Pray before you react. I'm not trying to be a policeman. But we sink to the level of disagreeable little children fighting over toys.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Jim I am goin to admit to being confused by your pugnacious attitude here. I am not understanding your defensive mode. No one disputes your obvious command of scripture, but sometimes, my friend, your attitude with others is downright anger driven. I can honestly say I hadn't thought about it till now, but your delivery and put downs do actually sound like Carl and his cronies. And how awful is that?

Do you mean it to sound this way? I don't recall Jesus being this pugnacious all the time. Perhaps we do sound like wounded children to one as learned as you are, but I see no just cause for wounding others as you speak of God. I know your heart is as tender and fine as anyone elses, and I know you say you are ok with people disagreeing with you. But it sounds like you are also okay with putting people down who challenge you on other fronts...abusive behavior is an issue on the board due to the abuses of GGWO againt the congregation. People are tender and sore...I know you know God, but what happened to the tenderness you showed the fawn when you set it back on the road to it's mother? Are you not entratable to those who ask for or need some tenderness? This is a confusing aspect of you that I have not been able to understand.

Please don't tell me it's not for me to understand. If we are friends, and I still consider us so, is it not ok for a friend to ask such questions? Be clear...I am not questioning anything but your pugnacousness. Your haughty manner belies the knowledge of scripture you have, when you "sound" like a bully.

I am called many name on this board by more people than I can count. I know the game. My questions to you are sincere, not meant to cause a fight, just to point out the idea that I understand why 205 has said this to you. Plus, I really would like to understand how the scriptures minister Christ without a Christlike attitude, so please don't adopt the classic tactic of bullies/abusers who refuse to answer the questions by turning the conversation back around to be accusative of the one who asked.

Thanks.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You people are amazing! You engage in debate and invite criticism. You attack on a personal basis and then when you are confronted you whine and moan and say, "You're so mean!" Your inner child needs a spankin.' Get over it.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I asked:

"please don't adopt the classic tactic of bullies/abusers who refuse to answer the questions by turning the conversation back around to be accusative of the one who asked."

I guess it was too much to ask. My question was not whiney nor was I moaning. My questions are real, asked with a real interest and still such questions are answered with a nasty retort.

"Your inner child needs a spanking. Get over it"

Charming and disappointing. Sorry to have bothered you with honest questions. You really do sound just exactly like carl and the elders...

Not that you perhaps care, but I find this very sad. Sorry Jim. Thought you actually might answer me.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta, when you said to Jim "I know your heart is as tender and fine as anyone elses, and I know you say you are ok with people disagreeing with you." How come you tell everyone else that they don't know your heart but you seem to have a read on everyone else's heart. Can't other people see your heart the same way you see Jim's?

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

The tenderness I refer to was in a post he made, which I now cannot find, about the night he hit a deer and then tenderly helped it back to its mother when he found the fawn was alright. It was beautifully written, and showed a side he hadn't shown previously. In private correspondence he has been friendly and I thought, silly me, entreatable.

Perhaps I was wrong to think that incident was an indicator of his heart. Perhaps I am right after all...his heart is as unknowable as everyones. Perhaps it was a fluke? I don't think so, but that is my opinion, which I am within my rights to keep.

Some people here have misunderstood my motives, and have misjudged my heart...I do not believe they want to believe anything much that is good about me...because I am a woman who actually was ordained years ago...*LOL* from the moment that I revealed my big Christian right sin, my motives and such have been suspect. I knew it would happen in this environment. I just didn't want to misjudge Jim the way I have been misjudged, so I was impressed with the post he wrote about the deer. I thought it showed the other side...I was actually looking for it.

No matter. I am used to being misunderstood and misjudged by Christians that lean toward the "religious right". I didn't want to feel this way about Jim...I guess asking isn't the way to go. No big deal.

I think to seek another's heart one much always look for the best...which is what I did with Jim. I have not necessarily found the same attitude toward the "ordained woman"...*LOL* Sounds somewhat like the puritanical scarlett letter dosesn't it...*LOL*

No worries, friend. Don't be dismayed, as obviously Jim isn't interested in anyone's thoughts on this issue but his own. I am actually ok with that...it is his choice, after all.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

I don't think it has anything to do with you being a woman or an ordained minister. Just as you have said about Jim,people might see incidents you have relayed as indicators of your heart.You don't seem to care much for people who don't believe what you do.And you don't seem to think to highly of Christians. YOu are free to believe what you want.I know you said you believe in God in a lot of these threads. Do you believe that Jesus is the one true savior? Just curious.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I am coming to the realization that there are people here who are absolutely and completely unhinged. They are attempting to call Carl Stevens into accountability without being accountable to anyone themselves. This is the height of hypocrisy. If they say, 'We're accountable to God,' they are just like Carl. Roberta, I am not going to be badgered by you or anyone else. I have a particular way of engaging people in argument that some find distasteful. When I think I'm right on a subject I don't waffle.

I want to renew my statement on why I came on here in the first place. I think that the people at GG are in error, they are enabling bad behavior and preaching bad doctrine. If you read my story, I have lots of fond memories of TBS. I am currently accountable as a member of a local church. These people at GG are CHRISTIAN BRETHREN, and in some cases I have more in common with them than I have with many of the dissidents on this board. I am not here for healing, I am not a victim of abuse. I am very thankful to God for my time at TBS and do not consider those years in the least bit wasted. God called me to be there. He also sovereignly called me out in His time. He has never called me out of his church. Some of you have an absolutely profane disdain for the Church, the Bride of Christ for whom He died. You refuse to be joined to her and make excuses of one sort or another. My husband, my wife, my illness...What did Christ say about putting your hand to the plow and looking back? I don't care whether you agree with my theology here or not--whether you go to an Assemblies of God Church, Baptist, Nondenom, or what--you forsake the Church of the living God at your own peril. God did not call us to be a bunch of disconnected body parts in some etherial 'body' that is not visible. The church is the City on the Hill--Zion, if you will--cities are full of people and they are visible to all. You don't like that verse about forsaking the gathering together? Poor things. Look at the penalties in the scriptures for doing so, they are not mine--I did not make them up:

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.</FONT>

The willful sin? In the context it is forsaking the gathering together with the brethren. The word 'church' means 'called out.' It implies 'called together.' Is this offensive to you? I am sure it is. Am I the focus of your offence because I have told you so? I am sure I am. It comes with the territory. If you are attempting to call Carl Stevens into accountability you should be accountable yourselves, and you are not. You are therefore groundless. You want to offer help and healing? It is found in Word and Sacrament (or ordinances) in the gathering of the saints of God. How can you offer what you do not have and in fact refuse to receive? You are without substance. Wounded? Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Come down off your high horse Jim...you are not the focus of anything except an honest question or two. Calm down.

You are not in charge of my walk with God. I don't have to answer to anyone but God for that.

"If you are attempting to call Carl Stevens into accountability you should be accountable yourselves, and you are not. You are therefore groundless. You want to offer help and healing? It is found in Word and Sacrament (or ordinances) in the gathering of the saints of God. How can you offer what you do not have and in fact refuse to receive? You are without substance. Wounded? Faithful are the wounds of a friend."

So...am I correct in assuming that only you are able to call for accountability? What I don't have and refuse to recieve? God's heart is bigger than yours evidently. He knows my circumstances, he knows my situation. You are so much more rigid and unforgiving than He is. I amswer to Him. Not you or your unforgiving rigid self righteousness. And I guess I can't really see you as a true friend, if all you have to say are self righteous negatives.

"You refuse to be joined to her and make excuses of one sort or another. My husband, my wife, my illness...What did Christ say about putting your hand to the plow and looking back?"

You have no right at all to say anything about what I have had to endure, why I choose to do what I do. I am glad you are no longer pastoring people if this is your cold attitude toward those who aren't as holy as you are. Not everyone's life is like yours Jim. Not everyone has circumstances like yours. God is very beautiful in my situation and I would not trade my illness for anything at this point. You are too legalistic, Jim. You are more harsh than God is with people who have genuine needs that do not line up with your overblown sense of self righteousness.

Say what you will, believe as you will, deny the pain of others if you must, be strident in your self righteousness if it pleases you. But I ask you...if the weak come to you as they did Jesus, if the woman caught in adultry was brought to you as she was brought to Jesus, if the prodigal son turned and wanted to come home after sinning for so long...what would you do? Tell the weak to stop whining and get right? Condemn the 'filthy bitch' because she didn't follow the law? And slug the son and refuse him entrance till he got himself together and stopped forsaking the assembling?

I do reject your cruel religious intolerance and total lack of understanding...how anyone could be so tender with a wounded deer and be harsh and cruel to his fellow human beings is beyond my comprehension. People need love, Jim...maybe you don't, after all you have your Pharisaical self righteousness to keep you warm, but others are not so righteous as you are. Some people have more tender hearts and have simpler needs.

Accuse me of anything that pleases you, Jim. I am used to this "holy" badgering BS from Carl and his cronies. I remember it well thanks to you. Just because you are not here to help the wounded, doesn't mean you have a right to hurt them. Some of us came here to see what we could do to comfort, provide some spiritual "bandages" if you will...I have been asked by people you have frightened away if you are a pastor a GGWO, and they have not believed me when I say no. I am beginning to wonder if they don't have a point. You sound no different than John Love, Dan Lewis and company.

Feel free to trash me and tell the world how off I am. God knows who I am and what my life is about and although you think you know more than He does, you don't.

For that I am glad. I am done with you. You are not a friend although I thought you were. I left GGWO because of men like you who thought they knew it all too. I will pray that God finds a way to tenderize you...I just hope it doesn't take something drastic.

Good luck, God bless and I leave the last word to you, Jim. I have noticed that you spiritual hardasses require it.

Good bye.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

I agree JF

[Anonymous (24.88.39.39)]

Way to go JF!

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta just wanted to ask a question that got lost.It might have been lost on purpose but here it is again.YOu are free to believe what you want.I know you said you believe in God in a lot of these threads. Do you believe that Jesus is the one true savior? Just curious. That isn't a question to judge you it is just wondering what common ground there is here.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Oh, please give it a rest. I find it very hard to accept charges of pugnacity and abusiveness from people who can spend the better part of a thread making fun of a man's last name--for which they have offered no apology one. On the one hand they espouse ridiculously aberrant doctrine with a phenomenally low view of scripture and then propose to question others on the same grounds--calling us 'hardasses.' Roberta did not just want to ask one question. She wanted to scold me for being abusive and pugnacious which she feels it is her duty to do. Some of you are bent on turning this place either into a wild west show or a cackling hen party. There are still a few around who are able to debate and engage without constant whining. When they are gone so will I be. Then you can all fall at the feet of Martin L.'s doctrine or join the Roy Masters fan club. Out of the freakin' frying pan into the bloody fire.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Nice.

[Anonymous (24.88.39.39)]

Roberta,

I am sincerly not trying to jump on you but I am really confused by something.

Jim may be one of the few people who is intelligent enough, grounded by the bible, and connected to the past in a way that can be a tough cookie for the sakes of people who study GGWO to listen to.

I don't think one needs to be sitting in a church to be blessed but certainly God wants us knitted into the body of Christ. I think many people who were part of GGWO have a tough time finding a place to call home, but it is important.

I also think that without being grounded by the body and the word as well as the sacrememnts we are at best lost puppies, ok maybe lost sheep.

But for us to argue that we are somehow grounded when we can't do nothing but try to hold people accountable when we ourselves are not to anything or anybody is really a bunch of garbarge.

I have not followed this conversation to think you are actually saying this, but it appears you are. So please clarify what you mean.

I rather side on the voice of reason than being of a double standard. I can't hold Carl H. Stevens to a standard I would not live by. Do you think anybody should?

Jim you can be harsh, but so can everybody here.

Pax

Neil

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

bump

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Keep on moving past the troll.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I am saying precisely as I am able that NO ONE can call another into accountability when they are not themselves accountable. If you say you are accountable to God alone, that is Carl's message as well, and he has said that ONLY God can correct God's man.

The church is organic as well as structural--that is why the apostle uses metaphors not only like the "body" but also like the "building."

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Amen JF. Its like "How dare Carl do this". Then a few lies later. "I can do and say what Carl does even if I say it is wrong for him".

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

wow. neil is jf's little yes boy...cute.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Now I know why Karen left...*sigh*

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

On
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:57 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow. neil is jf's little yes boy...cute.


No I don't like anybody applying a double standard.

Neil

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Day of trolls.

Yeeks...

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

It appears Factnet did indeed block some ip numbers, but not all of them.

Neil

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Neil, why don't they block your ip when you go making numerous threads and such?

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Because I am not breaking the rules of the board.

Flooding is different than starting new threads.

Somebody who floods a board with posts that act like they came from one place but they are from another is a good example.

Or when the smiley faces attacked.

That was an obvious flood. Not the same as returning an attack.

Neil

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

The smiley faces attacked? Missed that one too

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

The smiley attacked, while attached to Neil's "bumps http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif"

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

UM I didn't post a zillion of them> http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

You still here smarty pants?

Oh I know you are honest, never two faced, never paint yourself into a corner, and you never play the gender card when you can't win the argument.

Still feeling bad for Scott.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Still feeling bad for keri.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

My wife is way beyond your type.

She won't defend her beliefs with playing the game of playing the gender card.

She will stand up on her convictions and she will stand up to people who do her wrong.

Your husband jumped on a board and made false accusations and doesn't even know enough to talk about this.

Does your husband Scott know what an octet is?

Does he know how to do a trace route?

Can he tell us how to read a log file on a unix server.

Can he tell me what SMTP Means?

Does he know how mail hands of to one server to another?

Does he know what it means to be lied to by people he knows are well taught in the bible, but then say things about other people's spouses?

Does he know that making false accusations about such things like threats is a federal crime? That he can be liable if he can't back up what he says with an email he can't even read the header of?

In fact does he know how to read the header of an email?

Does he know you that you are wasting so much time and energy when you came here to HELP people?

Neil

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Neil....*sigh*...shoo...

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

RJ,

Is this how God wants us to minister.

neil

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

*LOL*

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

hope not

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

RJ,

Go look at the name of this thread?

Look who started it.

Wonder why?

Neil

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Oh! Now I get it...it's that "having to have the last word thing"...*LOL* What was I thinking....ok. I am done...go on...no really....the last word is yours....well....go on, Neil...there's a good boy!

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

OK RJ,

Please I love speaking to you, if it really is about something other than arguing, and I don't care if I have the last word, really I am not that way.

The reason I put up this thread was to make a point.

The point was simple.

The song was written as a response to aa bad situation(s), in fact situations being an important part of it.

The writer of this song was abused by her husband, he was also a major force in many of the radical movements of the time including the abolitionist movement.

The author of the song was drawing along the lines of the spiritual world and the present world we live in.

The song invoked a Unitarian Theology that while today may be best described as practical Christianity, it was radical departure from the Calvism of the time.

It also was a song in support of the anti slavery movement, and the womens movement of the time.

BUT it invoked from a biblical stand point that was hard to argue away from.

it is very pro Gospel, and it is very pro Christian, and it is very much the spirit of who we are as a nation.

Yes it was written by a radical liberal Christian, and yes it was pro so many of the things that many people hated at the time.

Not to far from todays U2's "Pride In the name of love" drawing on the comparision of Jesus and MLK JR.

This is an idea that from a spiritual side is something my brothers and sisters in the more fundementalist world would understand. The ability of being both knitted in the body, but the wonder of how God made us indivduals to contribute to this great body.

Here are the lyrics from Pride. Note a lot of people think its a lot about MLK and a little about Jesus. It is actually a lot about Jesus and the affect of it, on his servant MLK.

And yes this Rock and Roll! What greater thing has been given than him?

Pax

Neil

Pride (In the Name of Love)
One man come in the name of love
One man come and go
One man come he to justify
One man to overthrow

In the name of love
What more in the name of love
In the name of love
What more in the name of love

One man caught on a barbed wire fence
One man he resist
One man washed up on an empty beach
One man betrayed with a kiss

In the name of love
What more in the name of love
In the name of love
What more in the name of love

Early morning, April four
A shot rings out in the Memphis sky
Free at last, they took your life
They could not take your pride

In the name of love
What more in the name of love
In the name of love
What more in the name of love
In the name of love
What more in the name of love
In the name of love
What more in the name of love

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY