The Many Stages of RecoveryAll Topics Welcome

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

I guess I am disturbed by the intolerance some show toward any subject that is not their primary concern. I have been blessed by all of the myriad expressions of personalities and discussions posted here. It's true, the primary purpose of this forum is to provide assistance and support to those who are trying to leave the ministry and those who have left and are deeply wounded. But some of us who left a number of years ago are still sorting through the many doctrines we internalized while in the ministry--so we can go on in the fullness of what God has for us. As long as doctrine is not divorced from Life and is communicated in love and respect, I find it edifying. I am sorry that these discussions are sickening to some.

And yes, discussions wander into personal territory. That is because many of us have been separated from people we cared deeply about for so many years.

-Karen

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Amen Karen.. It is a time for tolerance and patience to all. No conditional grace. We spent too many years under "conditions."

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

God bless you Karen. This intolerance is harmful and not God's heart at all. If we cannot love each other, how can we say we love God?

I left the ministry fifteen years ago, but some of it has never really left me. It is good to talk, to discuss the myriad of things that still clog the flow of greater understanding.

Blessings to those who gave this board life and continue to see it grow. Your words about tolerance toward those who are healing are well spoken. Thank you.

Roberta

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Thank you Roberta for joining our voices, you make us strong! Cara

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Tolerance goes both ways. You are correct. People here are at different places. Some are in the process of moving away from talking and toward acting. It doesn't devalue anyone. Don't take it peronally. It's not meant that way. We don't need to be divided.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

But talking is part of the process. We, who are farther along in the process should also help those that are not. It is through our words, experiences, knowledge, kindness that give others gain strength to leave and recover. Then, they in turn can do the same for others coming behind them.

We, who have grown in strength and rational thought should also take action. Factnet has many purposes, each important. I don't think any of us believe the ultimate goal is just talking. We have all been under an intolerant dictatorship disguised as Chrisitanity, so I think we should mindful to allowing everyone a voice.

Any ideas of action 64..??

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Lots and working on more. In the "list" phase right now. After which will come the logistics. In order to do this properly and to have the maximum effect, we will have to be very organized and very patient. Contacts will have to be made and confidences kept.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Taking action is recovery as much as talking that is true. There are many avenues of action that could be persued. Perhaps a thread dedicated to that one topic might be helpful?

Roberta

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

Glad to hear your thoughts. You are absolutely right on patient organization for maximum effect.

Cara
ancara60@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

I know it has been mentioned a few times on this board, but can someone recommend a good counseling resource for someone who wants to get out of this ministry?

I would definitely want someone who is a Christian, but I don't want to have one set of twisted doctrine replaced by another. I am hoping for someone that will help to show what was wrong with the GGWO way of looking at things and help someone realize God's wonderful possibilities in a HEALTHY walk.

I am trying to give some moral support to someone who is struggling with leaving this ministry. Among this person's concerns are the loss of friends upon leaving, which is understandable since much of this person's social life centers around GGWO. I wish there was some possibility of keeping old friends, but from what I can see, I don't think this will be possible.

I love this person and I have promised to stick by them through this hard time. Although I can provide love and friendship, I don't think I'm equipped to deal with the loss that this person is going to have to deal with. HELP!

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

68.33.132.78 is your friend finally thinking of leaving? I have praying for that for a long time! What a faithful support you have been to her. You have been seeking the truth and answers because of your concern for her. God Bless You!

Safe Harbor is a Christian Counseling Center with offices in White Marsh, Luterville and BelAir. It's founder is Erik Sundquist, it is very Christ-centered and balanced. He and his staff are well aware of GGWO. They are well aware of the current situation. There are also other recently exiting GG members going to them for counseling, dealing with the issues you addressed in you post.

Here is the phone numbers I have and their website.

White Marsh # 410-893-4600

Lutherville # 410-515-3070

www.safeharbor1.com

If you want further info you can write me at:
ancara60@yahoo.com

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Interesting. I always find myself hanging out with you guys. Must be the good vibes.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

You like us cuz we're cool.

Roberta

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

Cara,

Thanks a lot for the information, and most importantly for your prayers!

I look forward to the time when we all can be fully open with each other regarding identities. For now, for more than one reason, I have to remain anonymous. I don't like it, but for the sake of my friend, I have to stay incognito.

Cara, I thank God for the people like yourself, talkintruth, Cordell, etc., who have used their God-given discernment to expose this terrible man for what he is and give words of encouragement to those who want to get out. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

This week in particular is likely to be a pivotal one in my situation. I know I don't have to ask, but please continue to keep those still trapped in your prayers.

Love, Anonymous For Now

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I will also be praying for you Anon 68 and all those trapped...especially this coming week of convention. God bless you and your friend.

Roberta

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Cara, I just emailed you.

Roberta

[Anonymous (68.33.132.78)]

And thanks to you, too, Roberta.

I love you all.

Anonymous For Now

[Anonymous (4.155.90.83)]

I am currently seeing a counselor at Safe Harbor and would HIGHLY recommend them.

[Anonymous (216.37.223.4)]

Yes, you may be seeing someone but what do those of us who do not want to go out or meet new people do? I am in a small world all of my own now and by myself at that you see I am a single lady over 50 and want to trust no person right now how long does it take to get to where alot of you have gotten to?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Sometimes it seems like it can take forever. You have to do the best you can to put your trust in the Lord. I did it and it wasn't an easy road.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

216.37 Read thread "WE CARE..." which contains the email addresses of two people who would be glad to speak with you in confidence.

[Anonymous (216.37.223.4)]

can I email you anonymous? Just for some advice

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

No, unfortunately, you cannot. Either Roberta or Lee would be glad to speak with you. I would trust the advice of either.

[Anonymous (216.37.223.4)]

Then if you would not trust them why shoul I?

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

216.37.223.4

You misread the post above. The person said they would trust their advice.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

216.37, apparently you mis-read me ,as I posted previously, I would trust either Roberta or Lee.

[Anonymous (216.37.223.4)]

my mistake.

[Anonymous (4.155.0.249)]

To the single lady over 50:

My heart goes out to you. I am a single woman over 50, too. I am looking back at the best years of my life down the tubes. At least that is the way it seems right now. I know the aloneness and sense of betrayal and all the other emotions you may be experiencing right now.

One thing that going for counseling at Safe Harbor has been doing for me is that is validating my worth as a person. Just to be able to talk all this through with another person, a person who loves Jesus and can see all of this from an objective viewpoint, has brought much healing and hope to my lonely, hopeless, confused, outraged heart.

I hope that you have emailed Roberta or Lee; also Cara in an above post will love you unconditionally. These are strong, godly women who have helped me immensely in this journey towards wholeness. I know they will help you, too.

I know there are so many others like us in GG; it makes my heart break. We were taught to keep ourselves emotionally distanced from one other as women. It was a subtle teaching but we have all internalized it. That is why there are many, many isolated women who are, as you put it, living in their own little worlds.

You have taken a brave step out of that world just by coming to this board. Don't stop there! God has life for you after GG and He will give you true wonderful friends. I know because He is doing it for me. He will do it for you, too.

Our lives as women over 50 can be strong, vital, and make such an impact on others. YOU are important, and unique in God's plan. Yes, outside of GG. ESPECIALLY outside of GG.

I pray you will make contacts with the women on this board who reached out to you, and consider Safe Harbor if you are able. I see a woman counselor whose name is Nancy Rich. She does not "give advice" or judge. She is aware of what is happening at GG, and is a compassionate woman who really just listens and supports. I have found her help invaluable.

God bless you. I will really be praying for you. KNOW you are NOT alone.

Love from your sister in Christ,
MW

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Anonymous (216.37.223.4)

Please feel free to email. I turned 49 years old this past week, so we are about the same age. I can listen and if I am not able to help I most likely will know of someone who can...I'd love to hear from you. Everything is confidential. God's love is strong enough to heal the wounds, comfort the soul and clear up the confusion....these are the lessons I have learned so maybe I can help.

Roberta
srfern@verizon.net

[Bob Brinton (141.154.186.182)]

My strongest spiritual allies and partners in prayer are women over 50. This is the time to really start building out of your experiences and hardships; to count for others in deeper ways than you've previously been able to. The Lord fashions us through the years; and intends that we go further and further into His specific will. It's not about production; it's about His exactnesses for you. You are one of His weapons; both against evil and for good. Bob

[muskyrose (64.12.117.20)]

Oh my goodness, you dear dear precous ones, my heart breaks for those of you who are hurting. It is difficult when you first leave. Suddenly you are alone. You feel as if you have lost your best friends. Because, well you have. All those close ties that you had formed while in GG are now severed. Oh, you may want to keep them but reality is they wont be kept. Not if you are no longer a part of the group. And that is the hard part.

If you left by yourself it is a lonely road. I would certainly suggest talking to a professional. Safeharbor is a good place to start. If you know of other people who have left GG, seek them out, talk to them, talk about your experiences,your feelings, keep talking, no matter how many times you have to go over it talk it through until you can make peace with it.

Someone mentioned trust. Trust or rather lack of trust is NORMAL after leaving. Singer in her book Cults in our Midst pg 319. says that:

"Former cult members find themselves feeling phobic in many social situations. They tend to withdraw and to stay away from crowds and gatherings of more than several people. Feeling badly ripped off by the cult experience, they don't trust other people. Additionaly, they lack self-esteem, and self-confidence; they feel incomplete, clumsy, and undesirable as a consequence of their cult training.

Former members' inability to trust is one of their most frequent and vivid problems. Not only do they realize that they trusted too much, but also they often end up blaming themselves for ever joining the cult and for feeling inadequate about their own decision making abilities and judgement."

In other words.. all those feeling you have been having are normal. There are others out there who feel the same as you do. You are not alone.

>>>>>>>>>>-----Bonnie

If you need or want someone to talk to feel free to e-mail me at muskyrose@aol.com

[muskyrose (151.203.144.36)]

I 'm bumping this a few threads up to the top because I think we all need to be reminded why this board is here. ( I'm being nice )It's not for warring against one another. Which we are All guilty of doing. (myself included) It is for us to remember WHY we were given this opportunity to come together after years of separation,(for some) in unity and strength. With Christ as our guide to help our brothers and sisters in need.

I think somewhere along the line we have forgotten that concept and allowed our own personal dogmas to take over and have failed to in our understanding of putting ourselves in one another's shoes to better comprehend where they may be coming from.

Instead we react with the letter of the law. We judge. We are cruel to our own brothers and sisters. We are arrogant, self righteous, pious, and yet we claim to do this all in the name of God. We refuse to accept anyone who thinks differently. We call them heretics, idolotors, new agers, and say ther are not true believers or have a watered down Christianity. We refuse to accept his/her personal walk and tear them down. We STILL REFUSE to CONSIDER the fact that these too are our brothers and sisters in CHRIST.

Why is that? WHY MUST everyone of us have to be a Fundamentalist? Why must everything be so difficult with people who say they love God? Why isn't it possible that somone can have a different walk with God that is not like yours? Even though they believe a bit differently?

Frankly I haven't seen much love around here. I'm including myself in this. I'm just as guilty for I have been caught up in this vortex of hate and judgement also. It's difficult not to be swept into all this crap when one is being attacked constantly. You end up having to attack back and that sucks bigtime. Frankly that isn't what I'm all about.

I'm in the healing business. I don't want to cause more pain and strife or see it done to any more people. If I have caused offense to anyone I apologize.

Don't know about anyone else but I'd like to see this place get back to caring about what is important. PEOPLE, you know EACH OTHER. YOU. Yea YOU who are reading this right now...Guess what
even if you disagee with me.......

((((((((((I LOVE YOU)))))))))))

>>>>>>>>>>>>---------Bonnie

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Beautifully said, Bonnie. And you're right. I needed to hear this today, as I think we all did.

Roberta

[Anon B (64.12.117.20)]

Ditto.

[Anonymous (68.163.171.32)]

Bonnie, thank you for posting that. I've never posted here, but I've been lurking a long time. I watch you all bash each other and argue about doctrine, and I shake my head because it seems no different from the spirit I encountered at GGWO.

Since I've been out, the only true compassion I've received is from people who don't make an issue out of their Christianity. After my years at GGWO, I don't call myself a Christian any more. I don't want to pretend otherwise just to fit in on this board. It's a very unwelcoming space for those of us sent spinning by the spiritual abuses of the GGWO organization. Unfortunately, that keeps lurkers like me from feeling safe enough to ask for help with some of the anguish that accompanies leaving this group. I don't want to be attacked because of my beliefs (I heard enough of that from the pulpit).

Time will undoubtably heal many of those wounds. Meanwhile, I see nothing here that encourages me to embrace Christianity any more. It seems the fruit of Christianity is rotten through and through.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Dear 68: Please oh please don't just abandon Christianity.
I know that a lot of the posts on this board are hostile and sometimes a little over the line, but please notice that many more are filled with love and hope and scripture. That there is a great deal of God's hope and people here. There is pain in healing, it is a fact, sometimes that pain takes unattractive forms, but in the end I do believe tha the true nature of God's will will shine through and He will triumph and so will those who truly seek Him. We are Christians, we are not Christ. We fall, but we get back up again stronger and more determined. Please don't give up.
I really believe that God has a purpose in everything that happens to us. Even when our choices are not the best, He finds a way to turn it around and in the end we are better for it, but only if we seek His face.
I am so very sorry that you were hurt at GGWO truly I am. I am so very sorry that your heart was broken and your spirit abused. But I believe that all of this, all this is coming to an end.
If there are still good Pastors and people at Greater Grace and any of its daughter churches (and I believe there are) their time is at hand and they will have to now be asked to make the choice between loyalty to God and loyalty to Man.
All of this will have a purpose, all of the people on this board who truly seek the truth will
be rewarded with it. God has had enough, and if we think that we are sick and tired of not hearing any remorse or changing of the ways we haven't even begun to see the wrath of the Almighty over this.
I, myself, was hurt at a daughter church. I felt used, unduly chastised by members, confused, ridiculed at times by friends who had their own agendas. All the time thinking what am I doing wrong? Thankfully, God led me out of there before anything to horrible happened. But I never in one second have thought I no longer believe in Christ. Please don't do that, please
spend some time alone with the Lord, pray for wisdom and discernment. Allow Him to heal you and lead you. He does not want any of His children to be lost. Don't give GGWO or any other cult that victory.
I don't know any of these people here, but I can tell you that what some of them have been through has been a travisty of the worst kind. Yet in most of them I have seen hope and love for God that has triumphed.
Give it some time, read their testimonies, listen to their hearts. Please don't give up.
Izziesoul

[muskyrose (152.163.253.102)]

68 163 I totally understand where you are coming from. I understand what your saying and I don't blame you in the least for being reluctant in posting. I too considered not posting at first when I discovered this board because I find myself a square peg in a round hole. When I left TBS years ago I also left the fundamental thinking
but I didn't leave my faith nor my God. My walk is my walk. My belief is my belief. It may not be the same as my fundamental friends but it does not negate the fact that I am God's Child either. Neither are you.

I find it distressing at times all the arrows and darts being thrown, but in the midst of all of this I see a glimmer of hope. We all carry wounds from the past. Some greater than others but all have been wounded. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Those are what binds us & brings us together.

It's OK if you choose not to wear the label Christian. I certainly don't blame you. And you are absolutly correct about wanting to have a SAFE place to post without feeling you would be attacked for being you.

All I can do is offer my ear. If you so choose, feel free to e-mail me. Thanks for posting I'm glad you did speak up. That is a good first step!!!

>>>>>>>>-------------Bonnie

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Hi Anon 68....lots of us are round pegs in square holes. Time and distance will help to help put stuff in perspective. There are people here who are strong and noisy, there are those here who are relaxed and less noisy...*s*

"Time will undoubtably heal many of those wounds. Meanwhile, I see nothing here that encourages me to embrace Christianity any more. It seems the fruit of Christianity is rotten through and through. "

This is just where my husband is at, and he's got every right to believe and feel what he feels like you do. I kinda think God understands that a lot of American Christinas don't make the whole thing look very attractive. He also understands how wounded poeople are.

Bonnie is a friend of mine and I can tell you that if you do write to her, you won't get slammed for what you do or don't believe. She's a good person who understands people who are in pain, ****ed off and sick of it all. She's been there.

Hang in there, 68.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Since this site said that all topics are welcome I have other questions (it seems like that is all I have http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif)
The Pastors at the GGWO and other churches associated with GGWO, I assume they had to go to Maryland Bible College? Do Bible Colleges need to be accredited and how does that happen?
Then once they graduate are they automatically considered Pastors or do some go in the field? Or do they have to go in the Field to become a Pastor? Do the Stevens's decide who will be Pastors? And how do Associate Pastors come to be?
Will they some day be Pastors? Because I do know that there is at least one assoc. that has had that title for a long time. Could some one please explain the process to me? I would be truly grateful. Inquiring minds and all that lol

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Izziesoul--On the pastor thing: I've known GG for over thirty years and I wonder the same thing!!!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I aked those similiar questions back in mid-'80s and was told it was a holy decision made by the jead pastor of a church and pastor Stevens, and was all I needed to know.

Implication was that I had no right to ask because I lack the right anatomical features which somehow cahnnel spirituality.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Is it not true that as far as the rest of Christianity is concerned TBS/GGWO pastors are 'pretend pastors'? The TBS/GGWO college is not accredited. It is a mind control indoctrination camp.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

yup, Louise...tis true

[roberta (141.154.144.33)]

sorry about the typing errors...

[Roy Masters (65.96.153.178)]

Cruel people get their power from the way you respond to their pressure.

Your life is in danger from people, especially members of your own family, who chip away, harp, nag and aggravate the life out of you, until you feel like killing them or yourself.

YOU CANNOT FIGHT THEM WITH RESENTMENT, because they use your resentment to drive you up the wall with fear and guilt, and terrify you into submission.

Take heart. There is not a single problem that you cannot solve if you will learn to be patient.

You are the sum total of your experiences. Another way of saying this is that you are burdened by your past. Unless you learn to respond properly in the present, you build upon that past. And without self-control, that is the only future you have to look forward to.

Respond wrongly to pressure just one time—and what upsets you, gets to you. And you will go on responding slavishly until you find the truth that makes you free.

You are not alone in your dilemma. The wrong emotional reaction to various pressures is making everyone sick and depressed, and driving people into conflict with themselves. Trying to solve the pressure-caused conflicts, many turn to consciousness-reducing drink, tobacco and drugs, legal and illegal.

Your reactions, becoming compulsive, are a subtle form of obedience. But emotional obedience is a form of slavery. Behind the relentless pressures that people apply (sometimes in the name of God and good), is a selfish motive that compels you to sin. Because of your reactions, you are thrown out of control and so you can’t live your own life. That is the reason why you feel sick and depressed.

Most of your sexual, family and business problems arise directly from your failing to respond in a right way to what is wrong, and I might add, taking it out on your loved ones. Conflict with yourself now becomes conflict with others.

Most of the things that are wrong with your life, your marriage, your health, your children, can be resolved by discovering how to control your emotions.

Your emotional upsets have literally turned you upside-down. Even though you were technically correct in what you said or did, if you did it resentfully, your emotions backfired and confused you and as you began to doubt yourself, conflict, depression and fear grew.

Emotion has destroyed your objectivity, and, failing to see clearly, you have made terrible errors of judgment. This, in turn, led to a fear of making decisions, so that perhaps you began to look too much to others for guidance, and you know how upsetting it can be if they happen to be wrong or take advantage of you.

You must learn how to be patient with selfish and thoughtless people. You must learn to be poised and calm; otherwise, what is wrong in them shows up in you and makes you look like the bad guy. Everyone is so fascinated with what went wrong with you that they fail to see what they did wrong to you, and that becomes another upsetting, frustrating and scary experience.

Cruel, unthinking people feed off the way you respond to their needling; they walk away self-righteous and satisfied, leaving you frustrated, confused, revengeful and depressed. They get their power from your reaction, while your resentment often makes you feel like the guilty one.

"Successful" domineering, (unprincipled) people drain you and make your life wretched; they can always be sure of getting through to your subconscious mind through your reaction to their pressure.

Dehumanizing pressure to achieve and to study is changing people into animals—animals out of control, in mortal conflict with others.

OF COURSE WE ALL RESPOND TO PRESSURE—BUT THAT RESPONSE IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH US.

Home and school pressures are alienating young people, creating monster rebel animals and delinquents, driving them to drugs, murder and suicide.

Your emotions compel you to respond more and mores as an animal, less as a real person, and everything you think, feel, do or say will only bring on more trouble, conflict, fear and despair.

You must learn to cope with pressures. If you can do that, if you can put the emphasis where it belongs—on standing for principles, finding patience and self-control—you can stave off disaster.

The way we pressure and react to pressure is the cause of all suffering. Learn to be patient before it is too late.

Upsetting you is the key to motivating you. Your emotional upset is the hidden reason behind all your conflict and suffering.

Winning through intimidation is a common practice among spoiled and unscrupulous motivators. No doubt you have your own private dictator currently aggravating the life out of you.

Through the shock of emotional upset, a compelling or morbid suggestion can be planted in your subconscious mind, and this is especially true with the emotion of resentment. If it doesn’t cause wild and senseless rebellion, you find yourself obliged to give in to ease the pain that the pressure of wrong resistance causes. Your life becomes a weary struggle against subliminal suggestions.

Giving in to please tyrants who reward weakness is a common but unhealthy form of love, loyalty, and closeness between husband and wife, mother and child, and between churches and their believers. (It also happens to be the way to lose your identity.)

It is hard to say "no" to pushy, irritating people. You tend to favor people who apply pressure—your boss, or your wife—and you spoil your kids. When the breaking point is reached, there comes a rebellion against work and study; debilitating disease and nervous breakdown take their deadly toll.

Reaction to stress is your weakness—your Achilles’ heel. All heartless, cruel, power-hungry, unprincipled people inherit the know-how to make your emotions work for them, and they have no qualms about casting you aside after you are used and broken.

The world is dominated by tyrants, teasers, and psychopaths. Some of them get you through cruelty, while other types manipulate you with a holier-than-thou, irritating "kindness." They might use both methods to confuse you, being mean to you one moment and being "kind" the next. Their bold, unprincipled manner upsets you, and because your resentment is the wrong way for a human being to deal with others, you feel guilty. Suddenly changing roles and becoming "nice," they can intensify your guilt feelings and make you doubt yourself. In that manner you are made to believe that they were right all along, and that you were wrong. And so you learn to go along with their wishes; you find yourself doing things you would never have done in your right mind, and that upsets you all over again. This vicious cycle, with a built-in upset factor, repeats itself endlessly, until you feel like killing them or yourself.

Human beings were never designed to be externally motivated as animals, but because of a little understood ego-weakness, we are. That is the main reason why we all have paralyzing conflicts, anxieties and fears; that is the basis of all our problems, right there. Until you discover the secret of turning yourself on from what you realize is right deep down in your heart, you will always be an externalized zombie, compelled to act against your own better judgment, hurting people you love and doing things for which you are sorry later.

Being upset is a conditioned reflex; it is an inferior way of reacting to pressure. It is why you feel so inferior, helpless and angry.

What if you could learn to look injustice straight in the eye without flinching, patiently, calmly and with endless endurance? Surely you would not have the problems of repressing or expressing resentment. This, then, is the aim of the Foundation of Human Understanding—to show you the secret principle of control through patience.

I know what you want. You want relief from your nervous tension and guilt feelings. You want solutions to your sex problems and family problems. You want to stop smoking, drinking and overeating; you want happiness. But you will never find what you are seeking until you discover the hidden cause of your trouble, and that cause is allowing people to upset you too easily.

Surely emotional self-control is the key you are seeking. Your very life depends upon responding in a right way to what is wrong with people.

Your main line of defense (and attack) is to stay calm and patient. Seeing you unmoved, the motivator’s tactics backfire on him; he becomes upset, loses his power and panics. Put up an impenetrable, invisible force shield of patience that lets the good come through and stops the ugly world from getting in and growing up inside to control your destiny.

R. Masters

[roberta? (141.154.144.33)]

Cordell?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Many in Christianity also think that women pastors are "pretend pastors"

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

And many don't.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

And many don't think GGWO pastors are "pretend" either

[Izzesoul (209.6.151.215)]

I don't Roberta. Just from these boards I don't think that there is anything pretend about you. I am just wondering how these men got into the position that they are in. It really concerns me because if the only thing they know is what CARL says then that is soooooooo scary. Thanks for answering me. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for all of us. I asked before too when I was in Mass. and the subject was changed and my arm was patted. I felt like a school kid.
Is that R. Masters the same one listed on the cult network? I am just one big question mark today?????
Iz

[roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Carl is so discredited as a "man of God" that no one who graduates from his school can get their credits transferred to other schools. His schools are not accredited, they are a sham.

The pastors ordained by Carl preach his doctrine of pastoral authority that is not recognized by any denomination if they ordain women or not.

Carl is a cult leader. The pastors he ordains are part of the ongoing abuses of the cult. They are recognized as cult leaders also.

Mainstream Christianity does not recognize GGWO or MBC&S as legitimite, therefore it is illegitimate...even more illegitimite than those mainstream churches you condemn that ordain women.

His doctrines are more off than any mainstream Christian church that does not ordain women...even Jerry Falwell doesn't preach the garbage that Carl teaches, and I personally am no fan of Jerry Falwell.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta,
How can you criticize others for being off when your own status as an ordained pastor is contrary to the Word of God? Nothing you can say or have said can justify it...you only have your opinions on it, but no solid scriptural support because THERE IS NONE!

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

time for the INFOMERCIAL --Tony Robbins --Personal Power

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

No, MBSC is not accredited. Some colleges except some credits. One does not automatically become a pastor. They have an ordination process which includes first a license to preach, an associate pastor and then ordination. There is a verbal and written exam. There is alot of church politics involved and one must speak the same language as Carl. I known of one guy that was a light amongst all. But he did not tow party line and was not accepted but I know of others full of themselves and completely unqualified but the perfect yes-men who were ordained. These men later battered the sheep under them. As with everything else in GG, loyalty to Pastor is of the foremost importance. It leads to all kinds of abuse.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Good heavens, are you still harping on that? Shall we go through this again? I have never preached in any church, and have never been a liscenced pastor. I never had any intention to be. This was something I did for myself...why in heaven's name are you all so hung up on this. I have never held a pastoral office nor did I ever intend to...I can say that GGWO is off in its teaching and abuses if I want to, just like you say other people are teaching off doctrine.

You have no reason, no right to tell me what I can and can't say. I disagree and agree with a lot of people just like anyone else as is my right.

You needn't be so insecure, you know. Being afraid of women who disagree with you isn't a sin. Speaking of sins, isn't it also true that if you sin in your mind it is equal to sinning with your body? So...one stray thought can make you as sinful as anyone else, as "off" as anyone else... that kinda equalizes things for both of us. Jesus died for both our sins. If you agree with Carl Stevens doctrines and abuses, you are every bit as off as you think everyone else is...so perhaps you might be careful who you yourself criticize.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta,
It is not a question of sin, but of being scripturally correct. You don't have to agree with Stevens' doctrines but you do have to agree with the Bible. And the Bible does not condone women pastors. If anything is criticizing that, it is the Word and not people.
The reason it keeps coming up is that you are always posting and are very outspoken, and so of course your own life is going to be in the spotlight again and again. Whether you are holding a pastoral office or not, you are ordained and you have made it clear you believe you have the right to hold that office and to preach

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta,

They practice quite masterfully what Carl teaches by word and example. If you don't like what someone is saying then find anything about them and harp on it for hours on end. It becomes their mantra:

Don't listen to Roberta, she is a woman-pastor.
Don't listen to Roberta, she is a woman-pastor.

Don't listen to Jim Faucett, he has been married more than once.
Don't listen to Jim Faucett, he has been married more than once.

Don't listen to Margo, she is friends with Carl and Mike.
Don't listen to Margo, she is friends with Carl and Mike.

It is the well known tactic of mind control, thought-terminating cliques..

It is utter nonsense and meant to terminate your very effective words.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

So...your ultimate suggestion is that I keep my mouth shut? I have no legitimacy here? Sounds so familiar.

So...tell me why the GGWO people who believe in unscriptural doctrines have a voice here?

Never mind...I got your message loud and clear.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Yes 64, it is all mind control tactics. It has nothing to do with what the Word says, does it???
Roberta, no one is telling you to keep your mouth shut, but if you are going to dish it out be prepared to take it too

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

You are right Anon 64...thanks for saying it. I have been out of the cult a long time and sometimes need to have someone remind me what I am dealing with.

I appreciate it.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

RJ,

He posted exactly why it keeps coming up:

....The reason it keeps coming up is that you are always posting and are very outspoken...

149, keep repeating the mantra and soon you won't have to think at all!..lol

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

We are not listening 149.. it's not working on us.. the mantra only works on those under mind control.. we don't care 149.. we are not listening 149.. keep repeating the mantra 149...

[muskyrose (205.188.117.20)]

~~ Ok Kiddies Sing -along with Ms. B--
Climb climb up Sunshine Mtn, Heavenly Breezes Flow
Climb, climb up sunshine Mtn, faces all ago,
Turn turn from in and sorrow, Look to God on High!
Climb, climb up Sunshine Mtn YOU & I!~~

Very good children now lets all put on our best singing voices and try Jesus Loves Me.
Are you ready? OK...

~ Jesus love me this I know
For the Bible tells me so
Little ones to HIM belong
They are weak but HE is strong

YES Jesus LOVES me,
YES, Jesus LOvES me,
YES, Jesus LOVES me,
The Bible tells me so. ~~

Very good kiddies~~ See what we can do when we all put our voices together in unison. What a sweet sound!!
So much nicer than fighting don't you think?

Now if we could just get the ADULTS to STOP beating up on on another...(HINT HINT)

Anyone else have a favorite song we should sing?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"I Am Woman Hear Me Roar"?

[bibbiejfromdahood (141.154.144.33)]

Ok, I take it back...it was just too good not to say...besides, I gotta find out id JD knows all the words.

[muskytired (149.174.164.83)]

I was thinking more like the This little Light of mine or Jesus Loves the Little Children or Hey, how about I'm a Little Teapot? Little Bunny Foo Foo? (can you tell I'm sleep deprived?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"pickin' up the fieldmice and boppin' 'em on the head?"

[RJ Heretic (141.154.144.33)]

"Losin' My Religion"? REM rocks

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Cordell, I thought it was "little rabbit Foo Foo picking up field mice and BASHIN' them in the head"... I like bashin' better than boppin'... the kids do too!

oops.. maybe it is expressing too much anger...

note to self: "politically correcto-size" anger for the palate on this board, children can handle it, the forum cannot...

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Does all the money that each "daughter" church recieve stay at that church or does some have to go to Baltimore?
Is each church responsible for attaining tax exempt status?
I want to understand this, GGWO is the main church, all the churches affiliates with it are they suppossed to like teach the same thing as Baltimore and who is checking to see if they do or they don't? I know I am pretty stupid about these things that is why I am asking.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

You should ask the main church these questions. Not a board dedicated to tearing down the church and dividing its people.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

What? I don't understand, that makes no sense at all annon 68

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

I mean a message board.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Every church that calls itself a Greater Grace Church is it's own church so to speak. I go to a Greater Grace Church in the states and they do not send any money to Baltimore nor were they asked to. Each church is expected to attain it's own tax exempt status. G.G. churches don't teach what the "main church" tells them to preach. They preach The Bible from cover to cover if they are a Spirit filled Pastor.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Thank you. I really appreciate your input.
And that is good news to hear as well. Iz

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

Greater Grace is its own denomination

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Izziesoul,
You are not stupid for asking except in GGWO's eyes.
God gave you a brain with the potential for discernrnment also known as -critical thinking skills.
In GGWO using your God given ability to ask critical questions is considered "rebellion!"

By the way GGWO has a long sordid past of hiding their money from the IRS, since they only have to report cash offerings over a cerain amount.
That leaves a lot of money over the years UNACCOUNTED for. It did NOT start with the Dovydenas scandal either.

Dont be ashamed of asking questions Izziesoul, just watch your back if you do it around GGWO, because they are damned afraid of answering them
with any proof, and will attempt to retaliate in some way starting with Pastor Stevens.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Could someone please tell me where the church in North Carolina is located?

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

It is raining here in Mass today and it is setting me to doing some reflecting. I was thinking about Jesus here on earth, I mean really thinking of Him being here as a man. How very hard that must have been to daily go out into the masses and be overwhelmed with the needs of human beings and their failings while still needing to accomplish his mission of bringing the Word to all those He encountered. Yet no matter how many needs he had to address he still managed to accomplish what he set out to do. I was thinking how hard it must have been for Him to forgive all of those sinners and the sinners yet to come. How must it have been for Him to be on the cross living through these times, the same ones we are living through now. To know what would happen to His loved ones at the hands of people proclaiming to Love Him yet, using Him for their own purposes.To know the pain others would too suffer in His name.
And still He did what He did out of Love, purpose of a greater cause, devotion, purity. How I want to know that kind of Love. How I want to give that kind of love. How I want to see that kind of love among us as lovers of His Word.
I am not a complicated person, I surely have not suffered as many of you have. I don't have the history of this church that you do. But I do know this, our greater purpose is getting lost here. Love one another as I have loved you. It sounds so simple and yet it is so hard is it not? Or is it? We make things so hard for ourselves, maybe because we complicate things to the point of obliterating the simplicity of the message.
I am not trying to offend anyone in anyway, just having a reflective moment and thought I would share it.
I want peace for all of you and unity for all of us as Christians for the Love of God.
In Christ Always, Iz

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

if Roberta been out of that church for so many years now she should have moved on a long time ago .so whats the problem?

[Anon B (152.163.253.102)]

Having and voicing concern regarding the on-going abuses of this ministry are not an indicator of "not having moved on".

If it were, your criticism would apply to everyone here, including yourself.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

New Jersey -- Beth Davies was 30 before she cashed her first pay check, opened a bank account, lived in her own apartment, or even chose when to purchase new clothes.
That's because for 12 years she lived in a Manhattan community run by a Bible-based cult, which did not permit her such freedoms. Marriage within the group is frowned upon, except in the case of the leader, and members are expected to spend free time soliciting donations and attending all-night meetings where they ridicule one another for not living up to the group's expectations.

Ten years after leaving the cult, the Midland Park resident still recalls the painful experience of trying to make a fresh start on her own. With her experience in mind, she founded the Cult Recovery Ministry through Hawthorne Gospel Church four years ago.

"It was like I'd been dropped from the moon," said Davies of those first few months on her own. "I started the ministry because I realized people shouldn't have to go through this alone. I wanted them to know they would survive, they would learn to trust again, and things would get better."

A life rebuilt

Indeed, things are much better for Davies now. She works as an adminstrative assistant for a Manhattan shipping company and takes business-management courses at night. And she speaks enthusiastically of the great relationship she has with her parents, of her many strong friendships, and the peace she has found at Hawthorne Gospel Church.

The Cult Recovery Ministry has allowed Davies to reach hundreds of people -- through a monthly support group at her house, one-on-one counseling sessions with individuals and families, and lectures to Sunday school classes. And Davies has acted as a resource for cult experts; her personal experiences were recorded in two books, "Recovering From Churches That Abuse" and "Churches That Abuse," by Dr. Ronald M. Enroth.

Anne and Henry Johnson (not their real names) felt totally lost when they sought Davies' help after leaving a New Jersey-based Christian cult 4 1/2 years ago.

"The only way I can describe the feeling when I came out of the cult was of being spiritually raped," said Anne Johnson. "Much the same as someone who has been physically raped, you begin to think it was your fault and you could have done something about it. What you need to realize is it wasn't your fault and you're going to recover."

After speaking with Davies on the phone, Johnson and her husband gained enough confidence to attend the support group.

"Beth really helped, I think, because of her own testimony -- the fact that she'd been in ... [the cult] for such a long time and has been able to pick up the pieces and go on," Johnson said. "When we heard Beth speak, we realized it was exactly what we had been through. ... At this support group, you're talking to people who have been there."

Survivors of Bible cults

The support group is made up mostly of people who come from Bible-based cults; most have been out of the cults between one and three years. Meetings generally draw between eight and 10 people.

The Rev. Ken MacGillivray, director of Christian nurture at Hawthorne Gospel, said the Cult Support Ministry offers a guiding light to many.

"I think most people are searching for God ... and during that search many get taken advantage of by others," MacGillivray said. "Because of her own personal experience, Beth has a keen eye for communal and abusive churches that might engage in cultic activities -- institutions led by charismatic leaders who deliberately try to separate people from their families."

Frequent contact needed

Davies said that when people first leave a cult or abusive church, they need frequent one-on-one contact with someone who will listen.

Late-night calls to Davies gave Margarie, a New Jersey resident, a place to let out her feelings after she left an abusive charismatic group 2 1/2 years ago.

"I was so confused. I didn't know what was going on," Margarie said. "When you exit a cultic or spiritually abusive group in a bad way, you feel you've committed a sin. When I told the pastor I wanted to leave, he said: 'You can't leave until I release you; otherwise it's not biblical.' "

Added to that guilt was the sense of loss because friends and family who remain in the cult shun the person who has left. Usually, that person is denounced by leaders. In Margarie's case, members were told she had to leave because she had expressed a sexual interest in the pastor.

Margarie said she found sharing in the support group to be very healing.

"They were my eyes when I was confused and couldn't see the way on my own," she added.

The support group usually opens with a prayer, followed by longtime members talking about the abuse they experienced in cults. This gives new members the courage to share feelings and receive support as they work through their anger and pain.

A lot of ex-cult members have been so scarred they will never want to go near a church again, Davies said. But with the passage of time, many will begin searching for a new spiritual community.

MacGillivray said that's where the Cult Recovery Ministry can play a big role.

Reconnection with faith

"A group like Beth's that's loosely connected with the church is a good place for these people to start reconnecting with Christianity," he said.

Even while helping cult survivors find a new spiritual home, Davies hasn't forgotten the people still trapped in the group she left. She makes numerous visits to the cult's women's facilities in Manhattan.

"These women ... have been told they can't survive outside the group," Davies said, "but I go in and can say: 'See, my life is testimony that you can live a good Christian life outside' of the group."

One woman who left the cult and did accept help from Davies was slow to attend the support group because she wanted to forget the abusive experience. Knowing that the only way the woman could heal was by talking it out, Davies finally convinced the ex-member to attend.

"It's hard to talk about what you've been through when you first come out of a cult, because often people will say: 'That's too bad, but you're out now. Forget about it and get on with your life,' " Davies said. "But recovery doesn't work like that. The more we talk about it, the more we realize it was pretty weird . . . how we were programmed never to process any negative thoughts we might be having about the group or about the leader."

Counseling is not the only help ex-cult members need. Most have no money, no job, and no place to live when they leave. Davies and other ex-members come to their rescue by raising funds to help get the newcomers on their feet.

For instance, Davies and her fellow cult survivors raised money to set up an apartment for a couple who left an abusive group after 2O years, paid for another couple to spend two weeks at a recovery center, and raised enough money for a young man to complete high school after he left a cult. On one occasion, Davies opened her home to a young woman for three months while raising money to get the former cult member her own apartment.

Reaching out to fellow cult survivors is important to Davies, but it's not her only priority.

"I want to get married, so I'm active in singles groups," she said. "You can be concerned and talking about these issues and still [be] working on other things. I try to keep my life balanced."


To see more documents/articles regarding this group/organization/subject click here.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

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[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

for prayer call cbn.org

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY