GGCA

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Discussion of Greater Grace Christian Acadamy

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

This is a repost of TalkinTruth from yesterday...


Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:24 pm
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Dear GG Board,
I have been sitting quietly following the postings on this board. I have wept for the people on this board, and I pray constantly for everyone who posts here. It is so clear to me that there is very real spiritual warfare going on, and I find it all a bit exhausting. Still, God is bigger than the warfare, and I have felt compelled to write, so here I am.

Before I go any farther, let me say that I am posting anonymously only because I currently have children in GGCA, and I don't know what kind of repercussions they might be subjected to if I post my name. Simply put, if some feel negatively towards me for adding my two cents worth - that is okay, because truth is truth. However, I don't think my children should be put in an uncomfortable position at school. It may be unintentional, but human nature being what it is --- I'd rather err on the side of caution.

I do understand why people post anonymously -- based on some of the responses that I've read. I also understand the frustration at why people are leery of anonymous posts. While I have no respect for some of the actual responses I've read, I have great respect for those on both sides of this issue who have posted their names. I do plan on posting my name as soon as we get through the last day of school, as I think it only fair that I identify my post too.

I found this site only after the Baltimore Sun article appeared last week. We are not members of GGWO. We do have children in the school, and we have been told CONSTANTLY that the pulpit and the school go hand in hand. Therefore, I think that gives us a vested interest in the situation.

At the urging of teachers and parents/friends at the school, we have attended services there a couple of times. We are firmly rooted in our own church and have not had a desire or call to change, nor did we feel that GGWO was a church for our family. Still, we thought the statement of beliefs was sound (as written). Our pastor teaches that the boundaries of the Christian body goes way beyond our church doors, so we felt comfortable having our children in the school even though we are not members.

Hindsight being 20/20, I'm thinking we should have seen how/if that statement of faith is manifested at the church. I guess now I'm playing a little catch up to learn a little more. After the article in the Sun, we felt it our duty to do a little of our own searching and a lot of our own praying.

If there is any leadership reading this board, I implore you to please know that what I say comes from the heart, and I hope and pray that you will listen to those that you have vowed to serve, whether that service be from the pulpit or from the classroom. Whether you agree or disagree, know that it comes from the heart and at times we all (leaders included) need to stop and search our hearts for real truth. For those willing to indulge me with a long posting - lol - here is our story.

When our children began at Greater Grace, we felt that there truly was a heart after Christ at the school. We rejoiced that they were at the school. We told others about the school and were so proud to be there. We always felt that we were looked down upon (based on comments and actions from staff and some parents) for not attending GGWO, but we attributed that to personality differences. We didn't give it a whole lot of thought.

This year, almost from day one, we had a VERY different feeling. We had a nagging that something was not right. There was a very different spirit there -- an unsettling. We felt very unwelcome there and we felt more than ever that we were seen as somehow less than Christian. There was a huge weight. I began to ask my family to pray for me. Many of the teachers and parents were friends, but I felt more and more uncomfortable around them. I was happy to be around them as a friend, but the minute that any sign of fellowship about God came up, I was bothered to the point of not wanting to be around them. I sought prayer, as I thought it was me.

The nagging feeling continued, and I continued to seek prayer through our church and my family. Then I began to see many little flags start to shoot up. Some connected with that nagging feeling right away, others didn't come into focus until the article came out and we began to do our own digging. Here are a few of those flags.

First of all, why are the teachings of Carl Stevens played constantly over every available speaker in the school? Why was the high school pulled out of classes to accompany pastor on his walk and then sent to Grace Hour - no academics that day? Why has my highschool child been getting inundated with an idea that Bible College is pretty much the only respectable way to go? Why has he been looked down on for considering a secular college? Why has he all of a sudden had a call to the mission field and at the same time had a call that he does not need to seek God for confirmation to that call?

Why did do we suddenly need all the added security all over and I mean ALL OVER the school? There are cameras in the classrooms and hallways. Why? Administration sometimes watches the children in class, because my highschooler has been sitting in class when someone suddenly addresses one of the students about how he/she is sitting, facial expressions, etc. My child said it is the weirdest feeling to know you could be watched at any time. It has caused much distrust in some of the high school students in particular.

Also, why did the headmaster tell us that he keeps a gun in his desk? It seems a little extreme to say the least. Is this part of the same paranoia that I believe led to the security cameras and has "the pastor" surrounded by body guards? Why is there an almost obsession with money from school leadership? I know this is fact because it was voiced to me.

We continued to pray, and the flags continued to go up. One day, one of the teachers asked me, "Are you sure you are really, really saved?" Okay I have to admit that that one made me smile a little. (Can we really be just kinda saved?) At her insistence we went to church with her one day.

She reserved seats for us. She made sure we new that it was a true honor to have reserved seats. We had not been in the church since previous years when we attended only to visit. It was a very unsettling experience to say the least.

At one point, one of the children leaned over to ask one simple question and was told under no uncertain terms to be quiet by the person behind him. He was a child with a simple question about a teaching, but there was to be no talking at all while "The Pastor" spoke. Then came the standing ovations.

People began standing up and cheering for "Pastor." That kind of thing is foreign to our children and not something they are used to, so they stayed seated. Another man from another family, had the audacity to reach over and tell my son to get on his feet and give pastor some praise.

You can imagine how proud I was when my younger child later said to us, "Well I'm sorry but my praise and worship is for Jesus not a man with a microphone." My child was speaking truth.

After the service, the person who took us to the church begged us to just try and get near to "Pastor." I remember her saying, "To just get to shake his hand. To just be near him is such an honor." When I got near him and met him along with the throngs of those clamoring to get to him, I have to say that I was officially creeped out. We left there saying -- "I just don't get it!"

With all of that said, we still continued to believe that all was okay at the school. I don't think we wanted to think anything else. (Some of our own denial.) We still told ourselves that we just needed to seek more and ask God to change our hearts. But in the back of my mind was the reminder that ....."The school and pulpit go hand in hand."

Sometimes God taps us on the shoulder. With me, he often has to use a hammer on my head to get my attention. When the person from school found out that we were not about to jump ship from our church, the small flags shot to the top of the flagpole, and the proverbial hammer dropped on my head.

I was questioned about how could I not see how much more GGWO could offer my family. It went on and on and on. While she didn't even know the name of our church, we were pretty much told that whatever it was, it was all but blasphemous. It got to the point that I had to be quite blunt in saying that we are happy at our church. We are fed at our church. We never had any intention of leaving our church, and by the way......we really, really are saved!

After that, our home life came into question, and we were shunned -- to the n-th degree. Then I began to get email. I have saved it and would welcome the chance to speak with a person in leadership about it (once school is out). It was filled with a laundry list of the wrongdoing of others, and the email was billed under the guise of defending Christianity. It was really a call to hate and exclude those who believe differently. As I said, I have saved the emails, because it disturbed me to no end. I was especially disturbed that this came from a representative of GGWO through GGCA - a church that purports to minister to the World.

My prayer focus took a sharp turn. Instead of praying for a change of heart, I began to pray for clarity and discernment. There were many other little things that came
up - MANY. Then the Baltimore Sun article hit.

I have to tell you, I was heartbroken on many levels. We felt very betrayed as a family. We have decided to remove our children from the school, but it wasn't the words of the article itself. It was all of the other flags, coupled with the way that this article was handled, or should I say not handled.

I think it is reprehensible that no one from the school has bothered to mention or address it with parents. After all, the pulpit and the school go hand in hand. I have been shocked and heartbroken that an administration that I trusted with overseeing the education of my children has conducted business as usual - as if nothing has happened. Never once have they said, "Hey parents - you may and should have questions and we welcome them and want to address them."

We should have left that school on Monday with an announcement of a meeting of parents and administration to address the article and parent concerns. We have been heartbroken again to find out how long this has been going on.

The fact that we didn't sends a message of some type of secrecy, and with that some indication of guilt. I have no doubt in my mind that many people there know that there is a great ring of truth to the article.

The second reason we have decided to pull our children from the school is some of the postings on this board, in particular those of Maria and Pastor Wood. I hope you will both, at some point go back and reread your posts. Then ask yourself, is that the witness I want to give. Our pastor once said, "God offends the mind to reveal the heart." That is so true, and I believe many hearts are being revealed.

When people from GGWO post, there has not been a call to pray that God remove any and all blinders and reveal total truth. There has never been that call that God reveal all truth whatever that may be and let the chips fall where they may. With the exception of a few, there has not been a reaching out to those who are clearly, visibly, and post here legitimately wounded. Instead, there is a continuous denial, attempts to encourage or guilt people into changing the subject, attacks to defend, etc. If GGWO is a sound church, then God needs no defending. Instead, intercede for truth. He will bring truth.

I can tell you this. I know of at least 5 other sound Christian churches that are praying daily for just that. They are praying in church, in prayer teams, in kinship meetings, in prayer partners, in bible studies. They are praying that God rip away the blinders and expose the real truth. I'm sure others posting on this board have their churches praying for truth too.

When this first broke, my husband and I decided that we wanted to go with our pastor to speak with someone in leadership about the doctrine of the church. As parents of children in the school, we do have a right to ask questions. That is our job. There has been NO ONE available to talk with us. With all due respect, I didn't want a politically correct answer. I wanted a straight answer. NO ONE has been available.

It has left no other choice but for parents to talk among themselves and talk they do. I can tell you that I know of many families who will be pulling out after the last day of school. Also, I hope that GGWO and GGCA will learn what the consequences of secrecy will do.

Concerned that we will lose all or some of the money paid for next years tuition (we have already paid in full due to pressures from the top,) we sought our own legal counsel about where we stand. Because the questions about the church have been known for some time, and no effort was made to inform parents, school leadership did not disclose information that could have effected a parent's decision to enroll their child. That will most likely null and void all contracts in a court, and parents will have a right to their refunds - in full. There is much proof to that. I mention this because I hope beyond hope that the leadership will see that deceit, secrecy, and denial is not the route to go.

I can also tell you that we are not the only family that sees the level of "Pastor Worship" among other things, that exists in the church as a real danger. I have been surprised to hear some of the reactions from people as we started to do our own digging for information.

I have no reason to just throw stones at your church. On the contrary, as a parent of children in the school, I have every reason to turn the other way. No one wants to uproot their children and move them to a new school. I have every reason to instead try to sweep this under the rug and tell myself that all is okay. Because we wanted so much to believe that we were wrong, we asked other Christians for counsel. We asked other Christians to visit the church. We know a pastor from another church who also visited. Without exception, all have come back saying they see real dangers in the teaching at GGWO. We know that we can't hide our head in the sand. Each day brings more confirmation.

It is time that a leader with integrity realize that there is a problem going on there. There ARE cult behaviors -- shepherding and control, allienation, just to name a few. You may not like it. You may not want to hear it. But it is truth. There are also many people in very real pain. I know that some of the stories friends of mine from the school shared with me were true horror stories. There is very real spiritual abuses going on. When I asked why they went back, they said -- they just couldn't break free. They couldn't explain why.

We have also had some from GGWO come to our church. All need prayer.

It seems to me that it does no good to hide your head in the sand either by insisting that everyone else is wrong and that everyone else is attacking, and GGWO bears little to no responsibility. God is moving for His people. I would encourage the GGWO faithful to remember that we are not called to be faithful to a building or an organization. As Christians, we are called to be faithful to Jesus. So why not join in prayer for truth. Ask God to do whatever it takes to reveal the complete and total truth about this "ministry". The truth is not to embarrass, ridicule or cause anymore pain to others. Instead, call for truth so that the healing can began. Call for truth so that His word becomes the focus. I hear so much on this board about "Pastor's teaching" or "Pastor's doctrine." Let the focus be Jesus and His word, His teaching, His doctrine.

I also see many on the board who quote scripture with seemingly wild abandon. Well, with all due respect, Satan could quote the bible too. Before launching an attack on me, please know that I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE SATAN. What I am saying is that to be able to quote the bible does not give you credibility as a Christian. Instead, walk out the bible. Let others see Jesus in you. When people can see that, then we are walking out a witness.

No matter how attacked Jesus was, He never launched out with some of the ways that have been posted on this board. Instead, he just kept being the light. I think it is important to stay in that light.

Don't use Grace as a cover to excuse any and all transgressions. Take accountability for actions. Of course Jesus forgives our transgressions. Of course there is no sin too big for Him. But sin is just that...sin. I can't bear to hear one more GGWO church member tell me, "well I'm not really worried about it because I'm already saved." Before we were totally shunned, I had friends tell me cases of adultery, abuse, and drug use in their own families and then follow it with...."but I'm not worried about it because I'm just thankful we are all saved." Please -- you have got to be kidding me. I myself tried to offer counsel on that but only heard, "I don't have to worry about sin because I am saved." Grace is not an excuse to live in a state of sin, and that is not my opinion.

I think it is time to storm heaven's gates - to fall at the foot of the cross and intercede for truth. I don't think it is just the healing that we pray for. Sometimes God has to fully expose the wound before He heals. He doesn't want to put a Band-Aid over an infected cut. He wants to expose it, clean it, and then bandage it. Does He have to do it this way? No - He is God and He can make it go away at an instant. But those of us who are parents need only think about our own children.

When they do wrong, do we just fix it for them? No, we try to teach them how to avoid the wrong later. We spend some time comforting. We know we will go through any pain with them but we know they must endure to come out stronger.

There are false teachings being taught at this church. Pastor Carl Stevens and others are responsible for false teachings. I have heard them myself. Carl Stevens is not one to be adored and honored. Only Jesus is. You can say all you want to that he doesn't like it. But, if he stood on that stage and said, "NO - sit down and knock it off - let's get something straight," etc....then it would stop. And he is still very involved in the ministry. I may have misunderstood some of the postings, but it seemed like some were saying that Carl Stevens is not an elder in the church or involved in pastoring. If I misunderstood that I apologize. If I understood it correctly, it is incorrect. He was just at the school this week, along with his body guards. The teachers still refer to him as their pastor.

I have also read many posts that say that the basic beliefs are sound at GGWO. It is just the leadership that is off track. I sought prayer from some friends, and I felt one put it into words better than I could have. I'd thought I'd share a piece of it as food for thought. Here is an excerpt from an email that I received from a prayer partner.
" .......Anything short of God's truth is a lie. We serve a jealous God. If any man (such as the pastor or anyone else) tries to take his place then.....well you know the rest. From all I have heard, I don't think it would be beyond God to shatter this church apart. My dad has counseled many, too many, who have come out of "christian churches" who were basically a front for cult type activity. I would see what is happening now as God's grace and mercy to those who truly follow Jesus. They will have to discover God's truth now. It is not man who tests our hearts, but God. I was just telling someone the other day how rampant I think this type of thing is here in our culture. Do I think God will not redeem? By no means! He is just and true. His ways are true. He will pursue all of His children with the diligence of a father who has unfailing love for His kids. So I will pray that those who have ears to hear, will hear the voice of God at this time. I will pray for the children's protection at that school, and I will pray God gives you wisdom about what to do and say. There is a spiritual battle being waged right now, you can count on that. I am so glad you have a church who is behind you and holding you up.............."


In closing, please know that I have no ill feelings for the people on this board. I have no reason to hate anyone. I have no reason to have ill feelings for people in leadership at GGWO. However, I hope we will remember that it isn't about defending the people in leadership. It isn't even about defending the word of God. He is the creator of the universe and does not need our defending Him. It isn't about one so called anointed leader. We need HIS TRUTH. We need His complete and total TRUTH. We need HIS covering. We need Jesus to step in and shed total light.

I am sorry for going on so long, and I thank everyone who hung in there long enough to read this through. Because I don't usually post here, I just wanted to voice what I felt I needed to voice. Thank you for hearing me out.

In Christ,
Talkin Truth

[Elena Chet (64.136.26.225)]

It took me a few days to read over the postings on the site. I'v been praying for the people involved, and of course for the church. Listen, there are no perfect churches. And GGWO is definately not a perfect place (I am a part of it, so that should pretty much do it :-)

This is NOT the point. I am not here to discuss any of the accusations brought up. I am here to ask you - please stop this mess...

The heart of God is never in the fault-digging. It's in restoring...

It seems to me that most people posting here have been hurt. And that was satan's doing. Please, before you go on any further, let God heal you first... When we speak out of our wounds (unless we are speaking and crying into God's ear), nothing good will come out of it but bitterness and more wounds. PLEASE stop hurting each other. It doesn't make any sence, and it's the enemy's instrument of wearing down the saints.

What's wrong with Christ's command "love one another, and by that the world would know that you are my disciples..." How about the spirit of meakness? Unity? Has Christ divided lately?

Sad statement, but some of my Muslim friends visited this site. They were disgusted. Here is their reaction: "You, Christians, say that Islam is an agressive religion. But at least we don't kill each other. Why is it that you who proclame loving God are so quick and willing to cut each other's throats? Is THAT the church you are telling us about? What kind of God do you have?" - Sad, isn't it...

It doesn't matter if people are wrong or right. They stand and fall before God, and stand they will. We are wrong by bringing up their faults regardless if we have the facts or not.

If we bring up other people's dirty clothes, even if we are right, we are WRONG... And help us God if we continue in this way, because now we are at fault and in need of repentance...

Remember, love covers multitude of sin? Remember the commendmant to love each other? If you can't love them as your church, love them as your friends. If you can't love them as your friends, love them as your enemies. BUT LOVE THEM!!!!

Satan hates the church and tries to bring it down. Please do not volunteer for him. PLEASE!!!
I have ministered and been on staff in a couple of GGWO churches, and I've seen them go through trials. And you know, God doesn't really need our help to deal with his leaders. He hits them hard without our assistance if they attempt to lead people astray. Take comfort in this. It is God's church, so let God do it...

How about 2 Chronicles 7:14:
"If my people who are called by my name, will humble themselves, and pray, and sick My face, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land."

I want to challenge you. Do you really care about the church? Do you really want to help hurting people? Do you? Then why not humble ourselves, and pray, and see God's mighty hand move?

As of today, May 23, 2004, I will start fasting for the situation. If anyone cares to join me, be my guest.

Here is my e-mail: LenaChet@yahoo.com. You know who I am and you are welcome to look me up in church if you like - most of the time I can be found in the translation area. I am not quitting, and we will see Gods hand in action.

OK. Enough said. God bless you all. My prayer that we learn how to be real friends in time of need - pulling together instead of pulling someone down. Loving people out of their problems instead of pressing them face down into the dirt.

With prayers and respect,
Lena.

[UnfooledStudent (64.12.116.66)]

I find it kind of sad that everyone on the board in support of GG fails to realize the importance of the truth. Instead the issues continue to be defended and covered up. Being a student in the high school no teachers or staff have mentioned anything. They've just ignored these problems hoping they would go away.

I will be praying for everyone involved with GG. I hope that everything comes out so that it can be addressed. I doubt that anything would be done by leadership to correct these problems after seeing what has happened so far.

I looked forward to finsihing high school at GG but have no desire to return after finding out about these issues. The more and more I look into it I realize there are many of Pastor's teachings that I do not agree with and are just plain wrong.

Please take this into consideration. I know that GG represenatives are reading this. I am not bashing anyone and I don't have any ill feelings toward anyone. I will keep everyone involved in this ministry in my prayers. I hope God will reveal the complete truth so that these issues can be dealt with by someone, by God.

Mrs. Chet, the heart of God is in restoring, but how can he restore something if everybody is busy denying there is a problem and that they need to be restored? As students, are we supposed to learn that it is best to just always look the other way, accept false teachings, and pretend that everything is good? Doesn't seem right to me.

Sincerely,

One UNfooled Highschool Student

(who does have his parent's permission to post to the board, as long as I am respectful. Just thought I'd mention that in case anyone thinks I'm too young to have a say here.)

[Anonymous (4.155.42.116)]

Dear Unfooled high school student,
Thank you for letting us hear from you. I just want to let you know that, believe it or not, there are many teachers at GGCA who vaguely know something is going on, but not the details, or how bad it really is. That is because of the way they been taught at GG, that listening to anything negative about anything (especially the leadership) is evil. The staff was instructed by Dr. Lewis, back in the fall, not to infect themselves by listening to any of these "evil reports" and certainly not talking about it. Ever. If a teacher at GG decided to talk about these things to their students or even to each other, there is a good chance he/she would be dismissed. The staff has not been addressed concerning these issues since back in October, and even then nothing was ever explained clearly. The teachers were not addressed concerning the recent article in the paper, either, even though there may have been parents asking questions. It is business as usual on the GGCA campus - everything is just wonderful.
So really, there are a lot of your teachers who honestly don't know what is happening, because they believe this is all about persecution, and they don't want to part of "Satan's conspiracy against a fruitful ministry" by "listening to evil reports."
Pray for your teachers; they are locked into this spiritually abusive system, some of them for many, many years. Pray that God will open their eyes to the truth.
God bless you.

[SJ (64.12.116.66)]

It's called the "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" philosophy.
Or like the monkeys: "SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL"
Unfortunately, that doesn't make the evil go away, it just denies it

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 06:19 pm
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Has anyone looked at or decided on other schools for next year?

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Maybe some of the kids that are leaving will end up staying together at new schools. That would be nice.

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

I think many of us parents want to get through the next two weeks before talking openly about next year plans. I would love to meet with other parents when school is out and all of us can look into different options. The children with their friends would make any transition easier. See you on the forum on June 8th!!

[talkintruth (149.174.164.83)]

Amen to that Anonymous! I think June 8th will bring a sigh of relief and thanks from many of us.

And to the earlier anonymous post responding to the student, I think you raise some good points. My heart goes out to the teachers who are in the dark. I hope they find the strength to start questioning things soon.

[Maria T (151.196.137.51)]

Dear Talkintruth...regarding your posting Friday May 21st.

I read your lengthy posting, but I am not "gearing up" to launch a verbal attack at you here on this forum as it was said by someone who posted after you did on Thread #7.

I see you have some issues and concerns, and I can empathisize with your wanting answers and issues addressed. I am not on staff at GGCA, nor do I have children attending there so I can't personally say I walk in your shoes. I do have friends whose children attend there, and I have friends who choose to home school their children, and others who send them to public schools. I don't think any of the Baltimore City schools are model educational institutions. Stories you hear in the papers or on the news about the inner=city public schools scare the heck out of me, kids being passed on grade to grade because they are "problem" children that teachers can't deal with...and then, before you know it, they drop out by 9th grade or so, UNABLE to read or write, more educated about handguns, drugs, and how to survive on the streets... I'm thankful there are Christian schools around. With the right atmosphere and godly teaching, I've seen the difference between students taught at GGCA vs. those of my friends whose kids are in public schools. There is a respect for godly authority emphasized that is not emphasized in public schools.

I attended another church in Baltimore 10 years ago, and they had a Christian School there for a season of time. My friend had all four of her children there. The legalism was enough to choke you. It was far worse than the situation you presented above regarding GGCA as far as the "teachings", the cameras in the classroom, or the way you were treated by the other parents in regards to your church affiliation. In the other church I was in, if you weren't a consistant weekly tither, and a generous giver of offerings, your child couldn't set foot in the Christian school or remain there. Thats the gospel truth too. I would have to ask my friend about the tuition, I don't recall their being any, because of the tithing issue.

I'm sorry that there are some in this body that do seemingly fall all over Pastor Stevens and seem to worship the ground he walks on. I know he does NOT like, or encourage that adulation, in fact at raps at Fellowship Hall over the years I've heard him stop people...and during services too. If they would focus themselves on God and having a vertical with God then remarks like those made like this in reference to people following a man would finally cease. Insecure people follow a man. You can't base that as a reason for not attending a church which you know is true. Besides, "baby" christians do the same thing...kinda like baby birds in a nest till the mommy bird teaches them to fly on their own. Think back to when you were first saved in your church. Wasn't your pastor "Wonderful" "godly"..."annointed"...sure he was and is...we were all there at one point in our lives if we want to be truthful enough about it.

You said something about wanting a meeting when school gets out -- with your husband and your pastor present to address issues. I think its great. Right now the church is opening doors for that very thing, for those who have needs, issues, wounds, and the like...for the opportunity of healing and restoration to come about. Neil Carrick is the go-between for the people on the board and for the church itself. He is working directly with the leadership. I am sorry you fell thru the cracks and didn't get the satisfactory answers you needed, because you said that nobody was available to meet with you.
Email Neil, he will help you out with this, even if you do want to wait till June 8th when school is over.

I'm not telling you what to do in regards to keeping your children at GGCA or to take them out like a number of others state they are going to do. All I can tell you is this...you have to do what you have to do before God, and answer to Him alone...not to any man. I do know that other than your registration fee, you would be entitled to a refund of next years tuition costs you paid already. Sometimes things are misunderstood, and especially with areas of money...especially on this forum in that regard too.

You mentioned guns and added security. I don't think after the children shot & killed in Columbine, or the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist activity, or the recent drive by shootings that had occurred between Maryland and VA that anybody would have a lot of questions if people chose to pack a legal weapon for protection. Security is beefed up more now at the church and for that I am grateful. I'm disabled, I use a walker to get around outside of my home. Even if I wasn't, I still would be fearful walking alone in the large parking lot out front of the church, even with it well lit...its not safe or smart for women to do that alone. In regards to Pastor Stevens having additional security, there are times after services that people rush up to him and smother him!! Most just want to love him up, with his health problems of late, many of us have prayed for his full recovery. At times, due to his back injury, I've seen him walk rather slow taking deliberate steps, and with people coming at him speedily and perhaps even taking him offguard, security is there for his protection and safety. Some may cruelly say that his "walking" is due to an unsteady gait from "drugs" which is bogus. I share common disc problem that he has, and I know those times when the sciatic pain is wicked and your gait is most certainly unsteady -- because of pain, not pain pills!!!

There is one issue I do want to specifically address to you which is the comment that you are withdrawing your children from GGCA based on postings made by me and by Pastor Wood. I am a very directly honest person. Most people are not. They sit in glass houses and throw stones and flip out when those stones rebound on them. I don't worship a man, I worship God. I stand for the things that are honest, just, and true. I admit sometimes I can be a bit too direct with getting my point across, because it angers me when motives are seen(by me) that are not regarding healing and restoration for those that need it on this forum, but they choose instead to slander and malign someone's character, behind their backs when that person isn't present to defend himself or herself.. Like that poster..."Walker" ...whatever the name was...he had a very revengeful and seemingly wicked vendetta for Pastor Paul and stated he would not stop until he paid a price publically for his previous sin. Now if a person repents, what right does anybody have to throw stones at them??? Who are we that we have now become Gods judge and jury for him????/ Thats where my heart is at.

I can tell you that Pastor Wood spoke the truth, he is not here in Maryland, and the only time I have seen him around here is for conventions as he stated. He has been ministering to people behind the scenes. I admire his forthrightness in getting his point across. Neither one of us are out to "get" the people that post here. If you noticed, we too have been lashed out at and spoken harshly to. Because we defend what is right before God it doesn't mean that we don't care about those who are broken and bleeding here on the forum. Thats all I have to say.

Maria T.


Thinking about what you said however, has brought a few questions into my mind. Perhaps you could write me at gracekid2@aol.com and we could chat further.

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

Hi Maria and Everyone
Maria, I appreciate the thought behind your post. Let me get something off my chest from the get-go by addressing the connection/relation that some have made between the location of GGCA being in the city, the Columbine shooting, and the defense of guns and cameras in the school.

First of all, lets remember that Columbine was not located in an inner city. It was located in an upper/middle class neighborhood. My point is that being in a city is not always an indicator that violence will occur, no more than being outside of the city is an indicator of guaranteed safety. I have worked with children and youth for many, many years, with many populations. This kind of thing can cross all kinds of barriers.
Secondly, there is NO DOUBT that the school shootings that have taken place in this country are tragedies beyond tragedies. However, if we are going to look at the number of incidents of school shootings as indicators that guns are necessary in schools, then can we also look at the tens of thousands of classrooms around this country where shootings have not taken place? Can we use those as indicators that guns and cameras are NOT necessary in schools and churches? spying on students .......especially when parents are not informed. Third, the school shootings at Columbine were not a result of outsiders "invading the school." They occurred from students within who attended the school. I would hope that NO ONE really feels that we have to arm ourselves to be afraid of students within GGCA. I'm sure you join me in feeling that would be ridiculous.

Someone else gave 9-11 as the reason for the cameras and guns. Are you kidding me? Do you really think that GGCA/GGWO is a high risk terrorist target? If so, don't you think school administration should have advised parents so that we could have had a choice to pull our children? Aren't we taught as Christians not live in fear? Isn't this more paranoia?

The bottom line of this issue is that it has nothing to do with Columbine, the Public School System, other Christian Schools, 9-11 etc. It is also unfair for some to constantly attempt to remove any accountability by focusing on other churches, schools, religions, people, neighborhoods, etc.

The issues at GGCA/GGWO have everything to do with the issues at GGCA/GGWO. The guns/cameras are of particular concern to me because of what I have read about guns being an issue at TBS when the ministry was in Massachusetts. It also concerns me that there seems to be a feeling that they are needed in the church and by "undercover" security. It is beyond bizarre. And yes, I find the cameras very offensive.

I might also add, however, that Pastor Baker packing a pistol is not the only issue. There is a bigger picture, one that includes the GGWO influence on the school. I did not enroll my children at GGCA out of fear of the public schools or because I wanted them to have a private school education. I enrolled them because I wanted them to have a Christian education. Therefore, it goes without saying that I want their spiritual integrity intact. I want their hearts for Jesus preserved. I want their hearts of compassion for others preserved and not clouded with wrong teachings from a corrupt ministry.

There are many, many people who we love at GGCA. I find it heartless when some members of GGWO have an attitude of "goodbye - see ya - who needs the likes of you." We invested so much more of our hearts than that into the school. I find it equally heartless when I see attitudes like that directed at people who post on this board who have put their life into GGWO. They have devoted years and years to this ministry only to be told "goodbye - leave - sinner...," etc.

Okay....let me shut up now before I deservingly get kicked off the boards....LOL. This is getting way too long. Maria, I am praying about your other points that you made. I will post a response.

In Christ,
TalkinTruth

P.S. To answer someone else's question in an earlier post. I do plan on checking with Christian school accrediting agencies and the non-public school approval branch of the Maryland Department of Education as well as other state offices regarding the acceptability of these issues. I will let you know what I find out.

[Gail (209.86.241.5)]

Thanks and appreciation, talkintruth, you've said it all very well.

[Anonymous (141.157.75.224)]

We hope to all use one thread again for everything. This is too confusing. Please use only thread 9.

[talkintruth (64.12.116.66)]

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:41 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI - for anyone interested in GGCA issues....I have heard back from some of the phone calls that I made. I wasn't going to list all the details on this forum because it is lengthy and didn't want to bore the others. If you are interested, you can email me directly and I can give you what I have been able to learn so far. I'm still waiting for two more calls. We have children in elementary and high school. I have also found out that the high school transcripts may not be accepted by outside schools and agencies in all cases. Again, if you contact me - I can give you the info. that I was given by the Maryland Dept. of Education, Non-Public School Branch. Regarding gun/camera issues, I was referred to legal authorities and I'm waiting for info. from those calls.
God Bless,
TalkinTruth
talkintruth@hotmail.com

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

Here is what I had posted earlier in the week. We've had to cancel one appointment because my husband had work issues. We are reschudling, so I'll keep you posted.

Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 08:21 am
One thing I may have found out is that there may be some fault in the contract for GGCA.

There was a big rush for early registration this year. A flyer dated March 1, 2004 says in bold letters that there are full classrooms and waiting lists. Parents signed contracts that if they cancel registration they will lose the "Fees." One of the "fees" is a $150 book fee per child. If they do in fact have full classrooms and waiting lists, then those coming in will pay the book fees and GGCA can't collect that fee from everyone. It is not a "for profit" thing. It is the same concept that if you rent an apartment, pay rent, leave early, and the landlord finds a new tenant to replace you, they can only collect the rent until the new tenant starts paying. They can't collect rent from both parties.

If they do have vacancies, and parents are charged for book fees, they do have to give those parents the $150 worth of books that they pay for. They can't charge them for something they didn't receive. Therefore, they would have to give them the $150 worth of books along with the receipt.

This is what I have been told verbally -- I have an appointment to have the contract looked at. Maybe some of the others with legal knowledge can weigh in here too.
TT

[Anonymous (66.218.11.12)]

Wow,

You are all really and truly ignorant. Go get an education and then talk about education.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

What does that mean Anon 66.218.11.12? Make your point, please?

Roberta

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

Under Mr. Kirby GGCA was doing pretty good for the most part. It wasn't a perfect school, but the kids learned a lot and were ahead of students in public schools. Mr. Kirby did an excellent job.

But just as it frequently happens in GGWO and GGCA, the really good people who have honestly the interest of others or in this case of students at heart and who are genuine, these special people are always pushed or kicked out somehow. Afterwards they often have to go through a living hell so to speak as the GGWO makes life very difficult for such people.
Just ask Mr. Kirby, who was an excellent principal at GGCA and ask him what happend following his dismisal at GGCA. Through the skillful "crafting" and "party lines" within GGWO yet another attempt was made to destroy yet another marriage and family. Or ask Mrs. Frischkorn -- there's a story.

Then, later Baker boy came into office as principal and rather quickly GGCA went down the slopes faster than anything that I've seen before. My little kid was physically and otherwise attacked by some other kid in school, and Baker boy (Pastor Baker) laughed his head off. He said that he couldn't do anything about it and we just need to forgive and give "Grace."
I know it may have been a difficult situation, but my kid was scarred for life as he doesn't even want to be reminded of GGCA or GGWO.

As Baker boy fired or pushed out the good teachers except for a few remaining ones here and there, the whole thing became a powerful playground for Baker and his wife and it became a school to which I would never ever send my kid again. No chance! In many cases public schools had a lot more decency than GGCA after Baker came in charge.
Of course, we don't want to forget Annette Bednez as a teacher there who reminds me a lot of Hilary Clinton, meaning of a person that I don't want to be around and don't want to subject my kids to.

But there were a number of excellent teachers at GGCA during the Kirby years and even in the early Baker times until Baker got rid of them.
It's always the same old church game at GGWO, and why should the kids suffer from the church powerplay, the intricate plotting and so forth.

I have to admit that I don't know how GGCA has been operated recently as our experience ended pretty soon after Baker took over. In any case, my wife took our kid out of GGCA and put it right into public schools as Baker steamed and scolded her in the parking lot how she could do such a thing. Then Baker came up to me and told me to take charge in my home and not let my wife get away with it. All I did was: HaHaHaHaHaHa -- for those who know Baker, they'll get point on this one.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

James Kirby was trashed and discarded because he took at stand for our children. He still attended GGWO but they (the leadership)took every opportunity they could to further destroy this man. They eventually pushed him out the door. But to this day this decent man has not said an unkind word towards any of them. He should should also be part of any class action suit we submit. The stories just keep on coming folks, it is astounding.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

68.229,
My child also had problems with many rowdy boys in the class who would terrorize the others at recess. We got the same response you did when going to P.Baker, making light of it. And the same response when I pulled her out...trying to persuade me to keep her in. Disciplinary problems were never really dealt with properly at all

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

To Anon 24.172 of May 22, 2004 - 02:58 pm

There's only one advice: Take your kids out of GGCA and run -- never ever look back.

Your story is typical in GGWO and if you look in any book on cults you'll see all the symptoms of a cult are there. Sure, many things are subtly disguised and appear to be normal Christianity, but it's not.
We cannot be sentimental. GGWO has established a personality cult around Pastor Carl H. Stevens (CHS) -- and it has been going on for well over 35 years! And it's always the same story, GGWO formerly TBS they consider themselves to be exclusive and although they say they work together with other churches, they always look down on them. Because GGWO leadership with CHS really believe that they have some sort of special revelation from God.
Just check out the history and what GGWO says about itself about the vision on Worthly Pond (or whatever it's called) CHS had several decades ago. And then the story about the "J" over the church a long time ago as a sign of God that GGWO (it was called something else back then) is truly annointed by God for a special purpose.

Take your kids and run as school is over by now. Never go back and don't even look back to GGWO, because nothing good will come about and it most likely will destroy your marriage and family.

Of course you are SAVED as you once trusted Christ as your personal Savior -- the Word of God confirms that over and over again.

People in GGWO are infatuated with an idol and the Bible tells me that there's demon behind every idol to energize it. It's a personality cult skillfully mixed with pseudo-intellectual Bible knowledge. It's really really scary, because it hurts so many people in various ways.

And people in GGWO just can't see it because they are deceived, and only a powerful dose of God's real love expressed with Mercy and Grace can really wake them up and draw them out of it.
But please simply check the fundamental signs and identifiers of a cult and these are all present with GGWO.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

What wakes people up and draws them out is most times a powerful dose of REALITY when they get burned or betrayed by people they thought they could trust. Or when their lives are sacrificed to protect or uphold the ministry

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

I agree that can help a lot too.
They just need to have capacity to take it and to face the music.
That capacity is often not there, but just like in our case as I struggled for years to see it, God interfered and provided a way of escape and it was a kind of "out of the blue" experience, although looking back now, in a sense I could have seen it coming.
But it was God who woke me up through some severe incidents and then as I have stated in another thread on factnet the Word of God through the Holy Spirit did its work.

But you are right, and that's why we have factnet to communicate the facts and the healthy dose of reality that can help a lot too like a shock therapy to wake people up.

Also, I'm hearing from very reliable sources that there are a number of preparations being made for something like class-actions, etc. against GGWO, although everybody is very careful as most people are still holding back to give the green light to the lawyers for action. But preparations are going on right now, files are being organized and prepared, and there could be a number of cases coming whenever the involved parties give the green light to their lawyers and so forth.

I actually know for a fact of one particular case that has already been prepared and it could be massive in financial terms, but don't ask me who and what as it's too early to say anything right now as I also heard that the involved parties are trying the "peaceful" route to settle things once and for all, instead of going public with it and talking it to the courts, media and so forth.

[Louise Connolly (151.121.50.1)]

I went back and did a search by author on Talking Truth's posts. Her posts give a powerful impression of how a Christian who has not been indoctrinated with TBS/GGWO's mind control views this organization. These posts, although some are lengthy, contain lots of healthy insights as to how a Christian family felt after their brief brush with this cult. It is a good and worthwhile read.

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

I read her posts and
I agree with you Louise.
I hope others like her come forward.

[Anonymous (24.62.182.91)]

I just discovered this board by accident. I'm not a GGWO-er but I'm a former TBS-er. Sorry that I'm ignorant regarding how to differentiate the Anonymous posters, but the first post from the man who goes to another church and is now withdrawing his kids from the school is bothering me for a reason which I can't disclose. If he would email me at lifisasym_phony@hotmail.com, I'd appreciate it. I want to apologize to him on behalf of a relative who is still at GGWO. I don't have frequent contact with my relatives there but we are close in some ways. I'm not really surprised to read what you wrote, yet I'm saddened and feeling "strange" about it. Thanks. I know how difficult these things are; I'm one of the fortunate ones tho who distanced myself from the ministry many years ago. It sounds like what happened in Lenox is about to happen in Baltimore.

[pop (80.74.212.166)]

Dear TT,
How are you?
Are you going to put your kids to GGCA?

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

Is pastor Baker at school?

[Anonymous (24.88.32.251)]

..

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

neil the supertroll

[Anonymous (24.88.32.251)]

RJ,

The board CCC'er.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

im not rj stupid

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.61)]

How many families have taken their kids out of GGCA?

Where are these families sending their kids?

Is the administration still the same? (The Bakers)

Who have they hired to take the place of the teachers who have left?

Does anyone know the answers to these questions?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Apparently, the Baker children won't be attending GGCA this year.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Are the Bakers still members of GGWO?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I certainly hope not, especially after the attack from the stage.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I certainly hope the "Baker children" won't be attending GGCA since they are both in their 20s by now

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Which pastor got blasted for telling Carl that his kids were going to be homeschooled?

[Anonymous (4.156.99.134)]

It was an elder, and since only 2 of them have kids in the school, it would be either Schaller or Stenger. My guess would be Stenger, but that's all it is, a guess. Maybe someone knows for sure.

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

Pastor blasted Schaller or Stenger?
That is so sad!