What does GGWO really think of posters at Factnet

[Anonymous (207.44.132.115)]

Answer that question folks?

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Does anyone know if they are even paying attention??

They are SO "well taught" to NEVER listen to negative report, remember??

All that teaching has created a seemingly impenetrable force field around our loved ones- UGH!!

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

they are definitely paying attention. all you have to so is see... (then ignore) some of the most horrific hateful posts and language laced with swear words... they are angry, they are feeling vulnerable, and know nothing to do other than protect what they think is right, understanably like a cornered wild dog. they are decieved... you can hardly blame their reactions...
God is big enough Jessica to penetrate any force field of any person who is truely and sincerely seeking truth with a pure heart and able to deliver them... and this i know...
faithful is HE who calls who also WILL DO IT (i decided that is going to be the epitaph on my gravestone when i die :o)...

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

And then...

One has to wonder since they are "so well taught"..WHY they are hanging out on the factnet boards? I don't care if they THINK they are defending the minstry....I'm sure "Pastor" would see it as "sinful" (cocatrice eggs! (spelling?)).

The longer I read the boards - the more the holy spirit brings up issues in my minds - things I thought I understood about God (and don't really!).

It's heartbreaking to realize that years of serving God was "indoctrination" into something else.

I am so glad to be out and away where God can heal me.

Fedupwithphonies!

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Fedupwithphonies-

I sure identify with what you said!

I, too, am so glad to be out- where God can heal me from false concepts about Him....

Unfortunately, There are so many layers and year upon year of listening to tapes and three services a week and Bible studies on top of that and Bible school classes and raps and.....

After all that programming, I wish I could just flip a switch and change the darn channel!

But it's healing that's required through time and the clear clean words of LIFE from the Bible.

[muskyrose (64.12.117.20)]

Jessica, One thing I learned when I left after being in TBS for years and indoctrinated with all the false teachings. I had to get back to basics. I went back to the very beginning and asked myself this question...Who is God.

Answer... God is LOVE. I knew that.

I also knew that I was saved and filled with the Holy Spirt. So If I knew those 3 things beyond a shadow of a doubt then everything else I would discard and start from scratch. I would allow the God inside of me to show me what HE wanted me to do. Which means I began to actually use my own critical thinking skills. It does take time and it isn't easy. Even today after all these years I still find situations where "ministry" thought takes over. I fight it. Sometimes I win and sometimes I don't. It's not easy but if you are aware and practice thinking for yourself it does get easier.

Having a support system in place is helpful, also knowing there are others who have gone through or are going through what you are going through actaully helps.

I shall keep you in my thoughts and prayers. If you have any questions please feel free to e-mail me. All you have to to is click on my name muskyrose and it will bring up my e-mail address.
>>>>>>>>>>-------Bonnie

[Bob Brinton (141.154.144.190)]

Maybe Stevens appoints some people to come try to mess up this board and discredit it. Bob

[Tweedledee (69.53.59.250)]

Scott R. told me "people" are monitoring this board.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

maybe some of those monitoring "people" will see the light... after all... everything for a reason, right?

[Isabella (207.7.192.216)]

Yes, Margo, at least they'll get a chance to see things that GGWO doesn't want them to see, like the CRI document, the Doveydenas case and the Lake Elsinor letter.

To those who are monitoring: Just remember, don't ask them any questions about these things you are reading, don't let them know you can think for yourselves, if you still can...they will toss you out like so much trash. They'll do it with a smile and a question mark on their face, but sooner or later, they'll get rid of you.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

Dear isabella,
... and isnt being "gotten rid of" a divine gift indeed!!!? :o)
m

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

The CRI report is now posted under its own thread.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Thank you, Louise.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

got it louise and thanks a load! it was quite an interesting read. i had read the first initial report back in the early eighties but had no indication that there had been further insight into the continuing saga..."AS THE (gg) WORLD (outreach) TURNS"

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Maybe we should make up packets of the really significant, loaded-with-facts stuff like:
-CRI report
-Eyewitness' postings regarding the affairs
-Alan Lang story in its entirety
-Dovydenas transcript
-Lake Elsinore letter
-Watchman Fellowship article
-others?
Our well-taught loved ones won't go to this website but at least they could read these things, don't ya think?

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

I started working on the website a few minutes ago.

I say I have some stuff up in a day.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

I can send you much of it via email if you wish. You can then print them and distribute as you desire.

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Oh, yeah-
Jim Faucett's story too.
The testimonies from individuals about how and why they left would be good as well.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

You think they (ggwo) are mad now, wait till you start doing what you proposed here.....

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Too bad someone can't put up the video of the
60 minutes show about TBS.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

60 minutes needs a phone call. They do not have an email address on their website, I checked..

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I have the transcript from the 60 minutes program.

[Anon B (205.188.117.20)]

Post away, Cordell.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Need a secretary.

[Anon B (205.188.117.20)]

No scanner?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Reposting from 6/30 10:08 a.m. on the "Michael Marr" thread...for all to peruse and THINK ABOUT!!

Well I for one think many of the things posted here on this forum are way out of context, and, I agree with Sam Spade, many posts do stem from inner vindictiviness and anger, and wanting to "payback" people for wounds they perceive were inflicted upon them.

I however, since this post is dedicated to Michael Marr will speak on this man's behalf only. I have been in his company over the last 2 years, which is a privilege I might add. He is NOT the same man that he was back in the mid 90's. God has changed him, humbled him (put here for those who who think he is/was arrogant at times in his approach)....he is very gentle, kind, edifying, loving and has a true servants heart.

I don't care what his past mistakes were. Neither does God. The man has obviously been to the cross, and to me, he owes me no justification of any past sins he had. My bible says they are under the blood, just as mine are. I certainly would not want to justify to him or anyone else the sins of my past!! Why then, do you people, whose sins are also supposed to be under the blood of Christ...why then do you dig up and pick and pick and pick and pick and then nitpick and nitpick and nitpick about things that truely first of all are under the blood of Christ, and secondly, mostly lies because 2/3 at least of your "facts" have been twisted???

Show me one "perfect" church. There isn't one so save your typing fingers the effort.

Show me one "perfect" man. There isn't one, so again save your typing fingers and effort.

Why then, are those that post here so visciously determined to destroy something that obviously God has blessed (speaking of the work of God in the Baltimore church and the branch ministries).
You bitch about the fruit...the souls saved, the lives touched...and say its a "cop out" for the sins behind the scenes.

Why don't you just let God deal with the sins behind the scenes and let him dole out whatever "wrath" or "punishment" or "whatever" He deems that people "need???"

What you can't believe and apply in your own life is the true gospel of grace. I don't speak particulaly of GGWO's doctrine, I'm speaking of what is directly written in the word of God. Who are we to determine what judgement people deserve? Who are we to determine who has or has not repented of "this or that" sin??? Why now is all this stuff being put out in the open...things you say...rapes, abuses..etc. If these things are true and you "witnessed" or "observed" them happening, or "heard" thru heresay about them, then YOU are just as accountable as those involved. The same blood is also on your hands also. Perhaps if you really "washed your hands" you may see things in a different light...

or did you choose to listen to gossip and slander/libel about people, and then based on your own hurts, wounds, unforgiveness, bitterness, etc...did you then decide that it was time to pay people back in the natural?

Show me where this forum edifies Jesus Christ. Some posts do, but the majority???????? Its sheer trash. One person with a hate vendetta starts stuff like this and it explodes into a huge mess like it has. Threads so absurd...so unncessary...people's lives being trashed and ruined and you all sit back in glee thinking now that "justice is being served." I'd hate to see the "justice" served to you from the Lord (speaking to those who know they are NOT posting here with a pure loving heart towards God and the brethren...those posting purposely to hurt and wound others to satisfy their flesh).

So..Michael Marr doesn't meet your approval.
He meets Gods, whether you like it or not.

Odd thing..postings since April, its now the end of June, 12000 + posts...to which probably 11,900 are totally UNNECESSARY, UNGODLY, INAPPROPRIATE, LIBELOUS IN NATURE, HATEFULLY STATED (2/3) AND NOT TO MENTION MOST ARE SHEER LIES PRESENTED FROM A SELF SERVING POINT OF VIEW.

I also find it odd that you seemingly attack those who have stood in the gap in the defense of GGWO, how quick you are to attack their posts, slander their characters, mock them...etc...yet you haven't scared them off, and I sincerely believe its because down deep in your hearts there is conviction because those people are printing what is true and what is not...yet you would allow your stinking pride to rule instead of admitting your motives were wrong...etc...

Just because YOU don't like someone who just might have a tad more of a godly character and nature than you??? Or because they have had a true cross experience and have learned that him that is forgiven much...loves much...

Well I see that case with Pastor Marr. He has been "forgiven much.." its evident in his life.
I see him "loving much"...EVERYBODY...he loves this body of believers in Baltimore, he loves and respects his pastor, those in leadership around him. Ahh, so that opens the door for him to be slammed...now I get it.

Just call me someone fed up with the lies and the baloney on this forum. Someone who isn't afraid to speak for what is right.

Go ahead and attack this post. It will give some of you something to do today ...

addendum to my post...
its a whole lot better than Cordell's spending hours and hours digging up the stuff from TBS and 60 minutes. Again, self-serving justifying his own bitterness.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

You don't know me. I am not bitter. I am however committed to scriptural church discipline. This is something you have no clue about. I am glad that God led me into and out of TBS. I have benefited because God saw fit to do so. I am grateful for HIS leading. I am not a victim and bear no ill will to anyone in GGWO. I wish only for repentance, reconciliation, restitution, and restoration. Information is necessary because the bad doctrine and bad behavior in GGWO has been going on for thirty years. Your post is so typical of those in GG, "You criticize us therefore you hate us!" Please learn a new song, this is getting so old. We call you to repentance because we love you, if we didn't care we wouldn't be here. I don't identify with the ad hominem attacks or the mean spirited posts. I have stated elsewhere that this forum is like the world--full of wheat and tares, on both sides I might add. GG has NEVER taken responsibility for the unbiblical doctrines that it teaches or the unbiblical behavior of its principals. Typically, you want "grace" given to you while you deny it to others.

[Anonymous (24.213.209.29)]

Is there any support for disciplining leaders, when you are no longer in their church???

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Not true, Cordell. I do give grace to others.
I just can't see where libelous statements without names, dates, facts, police reports, etc are considered gospel truth by people against the ministry here that post, they don't check these stories out which are stories/heresay until proven otherswise. Thats an area I may tend to "hold back grace" in.

To me, however, you seem to jump in on any new bandwagon and propagation area. I am fed up with the lies I see posted here. Nobody said the church/ministry was perfect but when the things that are posted are damaging and hurtful, then I do believe its ungodly, and wrong. You say you aren't bitter? Then why post Pastor Paul's private REPENTED of affair? For what edification of whom did you do that??

Since you seem to be the "spiritual authority" around here (huh) you tell me where the bible gives you the right to spit someone's past sins (that Jesus already forgave them for) in their faces...or was it a payback to someone's hurtful remarks about the number of wives you may or may not have had?

You don't know me either. So stop assuming stuff about me. I find it very hard to believe you are "for reconcilliation" rather, I believe you are used as a tool of the enemy to wreak havoc and encourage more sowing of discord here.

I believe the shoe fits, so wear it proudly ok?

Out of the apparent wickedness of the heart your mouth speaks loudly here on this forum.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

To "24"

Why don't you just let God be God and let him discipline those He deems needful of it???????

Spend your time doing something more productive for the kingdom of God instead of trying to do Gods job for him ok? Thanks.

[Anonymous (4.139.18.20)]

64 must be a "pastor" at GGWO; trying to defend his "free meal ticket"

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

What I am about to say is probably not something some want to hear, but I feel compelled to say it. As mentioned, we dissenters are vulnerable on an important point. All of the unsubstantiated reports of abuse and speculation about background checks are undermining our credibility. I think it is worth noting that the lid came off the Catholic Church when the victims came forward with their own testimonies. And I believe that applies to our situation as well. I am not saying that the abuse did not happen; but I am saying that only those with first-hand knowledge have the right to publish the accounts.

When I evaluate information, I automatically discount anything but first-person testimony. And really, do we want people to be persuaded by what for the most part are anonymous reports without evidence?

Please don't be angry with me--as I know some are because I raised this point before. God will only make a way for the truth to prevail; he is not interested in partisan politics.

However, and this is a big however, I am in no way legitimizing the ministry. I just think we should focus on the clear-cut and substantiated issues--which is what the writers of the CRI report chose to do as well. And it is this one aspect of the report that spoke most to me of the writers' integrity:

"In this report we have chosen not to delve into a lot of the details of scandal and controversy surrounding The Bible Speaks that have been brought to our attention. This is because it is not our desire to destroy the organization or disgrace its leadership" (56).

The writers went on to say, "It seems clear to us that we have been invited and placed in the center of the TBS controversy for a purpose, and through this report we pray that purpose is being effectively served. Perhaps it is because so many within the organization truly do care about pleasing God that He has gone to the extent of raising people up to tell them 'the truth in love' (Eph. 4: 15)" (60).

In His Love,
Karen

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Thanks Karen, for speaking up about this subject. This is the second such time and I take what you say seriously. I also take seriously some of the stories I've heard about abuse on children. My apologies to you and anyone else that thinks I've degraded myself by expressing my concern and my willingness to help those caught in the awful place of having experienced such things and the anquish that one goes through trying to overcome that experience.

I believe that for far too long we have remained silent on a most damaging experience that some have had. I think the reason I've allowed my email to be given in so public a forum is because I know that even the victims in the catholic church had to have somewhere or someone to go to that would help show them the way out. I do not and never have claimed to be one that has the answers for anyone. Given the volitility of this subject matter, I have refrained from speaking up too often about it. Perhaps it is time once again to simply post the organizations available to help those that are in need, and to take a break from posting so much about it. I think we've called out enough, so that if anyone wants to contact anyone or any organization for help , they could easily find that info. Saying this does not negate the fact that I have heard stories, and I do believe them. I do not care to have any of the details of them posted here for all to read. I believe that one of the reasons I've spoken occasionally about this, is because it needs to be addressed.

I have not enjoyed reading any of the posts from anyone that speaks in a mean spirited or hateful way to another. There have been postings in the last few days that have been distressing to read. I find it hard to respect people that stoop that low, just because of disagreeing with someone else. I appreciate your voice Karen, because I know it to be kind and reasonable. I believe what you say and will take heed.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Karen do you have an email address you can post? If not, I understand.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

64.12 Wrote--"To me, however, you seem to jump in on any new bandwagon and propagation area. I am fed up with the lies I see posted here. Nobody said the church/ministry was perfect but when the things that are posted are damaging and hurtful, then I do believe its ungodly, and wrong. You say you aren't bitter? Then why post Pastor Paul's private REPENTED of affair? For what edification of whom did you do that??

Since you seem to be the "spiritual authority" around here (huh) you tell me where the bible gives you the right to spit someone's past sins (that Jesus already forgave them for) in their faces...or was it a payback to someone's hurtful remarks about the number of wives you may or may not have had?

You don't know me either. So stop assuming stuff about me. I find it very hard to believe you are "for reconcilliation" rather, I believe you are used as a tool of the enemy to wreak havoc and encourage more sowing of discord here.

I believe the shoe fits, so wear it proudly ok?

Out of the apparent wickedness of the heart your mouth speaks loudly here on this forum."

1)I jump on any new bandwagon? Examples please? I have been around long enough and have known Carl Stevens since I was very young. I know more than I can actually even say here.

2)Who said the church had to be perfect? Provisions for repentance, rebuke and reproval are given in scripture because the people in the church AREN’T perfect!

3)I posted the emails for reasons I have explained countless times for automatons like you who simply don’t understand that saying sorry, oops I’ve sinned and rebounded, neener neener neener you can’t touch me ---and listen closely here, sunshine, IS NOT REPENTANCE!!! You don’t have an affair with a married woman who trusted you as her counselor IN HER MARRIAGE, say whoops! And then continue on business as usual without any accountability whatsoever??? Why is that okay with YOU? Show me how that works in scripture Mr./ms. Genius! You don’t stand idly by while your father covers up for you and maligns a man’s character calling him mentally unstable and a criminal and call that repentance!

The sins are not just Paul’s they belong to every single one of the GGWO leadership who have allowed and enabled this kind of behavior to go on for years. How do any of these men fulfill the requirements in 1 Tim. 3?

4) The statement about the number of wives I’ve had is a response to the current rumors being spread about me from the very top of GGWO leadership. It is going on now against me as many of us who’ve left have been defamed know. We watched others being defamed when they left when we were still in!

5) Your comment about my heart shows that you, like other GG insiders seem to have a hotline to heaven that no one else here does! Even scripture attributes that ability only to God!

[Anonymous (4.139.15.118)]

To quote Rhett Butler..."Frankly my dear; I don't give a damn."

[Just Thinking (68.91.73.186)]

For the 12,000++++ posts there are three substantiated facts:
1. Undue influence in a 5 million dollar gift (which the church paid dearly for)
2. The gross mishandling of the Pastor Paul & Mrs. Lang affair (which the church and both families are paying dearly for)
3. Jack Leonard (by his own admission lied under oath when asked about Pastor Stevens labeling people as demonized)
My personal Analysis: (deliberately brief)
Many say the ministry is a cult. I disagree. However, an unbiblical and unhealthy overemphasis on pastoral authority and double honor leads to a climate of allowing the leader to plan in a vacuum. As a result, he does not always arrive at the best decision, even though he may have good intentions. (I cannot judge any man's motives only God can). And, the poor decisions have caused the pastor and the church undue grief, hurts stress and difficulty. This aberrant doctrine and practice is the heart of the problem. Two examples clearly illustrate my point:
1. The acceptance of a large gift without the husband being in agreement compounded by the pastor setting himself up as a trustee for the heiress. This caused the church and the pastor and the donor undue grief, hurt, stress and difficulty which still affect the church today.
2. The covering and ignoring of the son’s ongoing affair. (While allowing him to continue in the office and teaching, preaching, etc.). No wonder Al Lang did what he did! The pastor’s poor judgment due to sentimentality allowed the ministry to suffer great embarrassment. This decision is dramatically affecting the church today.
3. Jack Leonard to date is the only leader who has come forward with complete transparency and honesty. May God bless you and honor you for your humility and transparency.
I am waiting for the others to do the same.
Note:
Many people are hurting and in need of healing. I do not discount your threads. I am just sticking to the facts and trying to be brief. Until hearsay is proven I will stick to innocent until proven guilty. Encourage the victims to come forward and make their case. Or, keep what was revealed to you in secret as a confidence and learn to trust God for His justice, while praying for the victim to have the courage to come forward.
P.S. My name is Dave Drago, I was in Lenox in the 80's and I pastor a church in the St. Louis, MO. area. I fear no man or woman. I fear God.
I have no axe to grind, no grudge to hold, just a burden to see this resolved and corrective measures taken.
I have always been a friend and will continue to be a friend of GGWO, even though I disagree with their current implementation of pastoral authority and their lack of response to these issues. I thank God for the passion for souls, a love for Scripture and appreciation of the body of Christ that I was taught. My prayers are for the leadership and elders and the congregation to review their doctrine and make sweeping changes, glorify Christ and do what they do best-share the gospel with a segment of America that many churches are unwilling or unable to effectively reach. To use a GGWO phrase, I appreciate their portion.
Also, the organization is only thirty years old, hopefully they will transition successfully.
I am thankful for Factnet (apart from the obvious abuses) because people have an outlet to voice. This is free speech, if you don't like it, click on another site like Polly Pocket.com or G.I. Joe.com, my children enjoy those sites!! LOL
Just Thinking

[Just Thinking (68.91.73.186)]

I have to finish prep. for midweek service: Think on this: "Seek understanding before being understood."
A mentor taught me that...It really helps me pastor more effectively.
Dave Drago

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Lee,

I just wanted to say publicly how much I treasure our friendship. Your response was gracious and full of conviction. I know that you are privy to information that I am not and the urgency of it compels you on behalf of those who are victims. I completely respect that.

Love,
Karen


149- my e-mail address is duhamelkm@comcast.net. Hope to hear from you.

[Anonymous (172.142.131.186)]

yes they are reading the board and paying attention. they have been very kind to me by email, give credit where credit is due. but there are so many questions in my mind and the fact is I have a terminal disease and am really not sure why.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

are you all obsessed with GGWO round the clock? If God marked iniquity, who could stand?? I just happened to be passing through and frankly ya'll need to get a life. Let your words on earth be few; go fishin' or something to take your minds off your wounded spirits. The same names pop up all over these pages; you "regulars" should exchange emails and TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES

[Anonymous (172.142.131.186)]

205 if you just came here because you were passing through then you just violated all the doctrines you've been taught.so

Many of us are looking for answers who have been in the ministry many years. you are not privy to our lives so you had no right to say that.

when you sit where any of us sit for 5 minutes you would be still.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

wounded and whining... wounded and whining... get over youself

[Lori Argenzio (141.157.87.63)]

O hush up 205...you are just nasty

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

be CAUTIOUS around that group they could get dangerous , Paranoia , weapons , bodyguards, spies , ..they have some posing as wounded ex gg'rs to find out who you are .there will be visits to people homes

[Anonymous (172.142.131.186)]

not wounded or whining hon, just looking for answers.

[Anonymous (172.142.131.186)]

but actually I prayed and found my answer in this verse:

Acts 5:38 "Now in the present case let me say to you, stand off (withdraw) from these men and let them alone. For if this doctrine or purpose or undertaking or movement is of human origin, it will fail (be overthrown and come to nothing);
39But if it is of God, you will not be able to stop or overthrow or destroy them; you might even be found fighting against God!"

If Fact net is not of God it will fail, if the present situation in GG is not of God it will fail.

So I will be still and wait upon Him who loves our souls.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

longevity is not a way to measure truth cause the roman catholic church has been around for centuries .Jehovah witnesses , mormonism , islam buddhism , hinduism ,animism , been around for 100's of years but are false religions.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

And carl's is a false religion as well

[Dave (4.156.90.187)]

Did the Bible Speaks Christian Church in Lenox, Massachusetts fail,
or did it just change its name to GGWO, and relocate?

Dave

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

there is a thread here that explains the whole story .TBS/GWWO

[Anonymous (67.243.133.206)]

Who the heck care WHAT GGWO thinks about us; as long as they are getting the message loud and clear

THE TIME IS NOW FOR ACCOUNTABILITY AND RESTRUCTURING OF DOCTRINES WHICH INSURE PASTOR STEVENS WORSHIP!

[Anonymous (67.243.133.206)]

Isaiah 42:8

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif bump

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

@----)-----