John Palmer

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

I noted someone's question about John Palmer.

John Palmer was a major influence on my perspective as to what it was to be a Pastor.

The man was in terms of intergrity a great leader.

He often could get something done, change somebodies mind in a matter of a whisper.

I will not go into details about what he did with regards to many of the events I am aware of.

However if there was a person like John Palmer on staff, and had the ability to influence people in the manner he did I believe the ministry would take a major change towards a proper perspective.

During my time on staff he managed to pull off some major conflict resolution and most likely stopped things from ever reaching a boiling point.

While he was incredibly loyal to Pastor, he was incredibly loyal to his mind and his heart. He often disagreed with people in a manner that challanged some of the best. I can tell you that he did indeed change Pastors mind on things. In fact he did so in front of people on an occasion I am aware of. Pastor loved him for his gifts and his mind. I think he counted him great counsel.

One of the best examples I can give is he defended a position I made about Norman Vincent Peale. It was basically about what NVP had believed when he was younger. His work with bible societies etc.

I can remember how upset so many that he would defend the supposed foe of the word of God. Pastor Palmer laughed when they went away. That included some people who would have had me for lunch for making such a point without Pastor Palmer around

I left GGWO before John Palmer died.

I sat in the service and I can't remember feeling so defeated by a persons death. It was like that was it. Nobody left.

I can name several people I feel a huge heart for at GGWO. Including some of the staff Pastors I worked with, but John Palmer was willing to stand up and speak truth in love, and what was interesting many in leadership wer willing to listen and take notice.

In fact it was the leaders that often listened and the younger that often dismissed. Wonder if there is a possibility the Holy Spirit could slip a spirit like this into the folds of GGWO again.

In Christ,

Neil Carrick

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

i remember john palmer from the early on days of TBS. it was before even he moved his wife and amy up to lenox. susie of course was already in bible school at the time.
i went with steve nordfors (remember him, God rest his soul) back to new jersey one weekend and we took a ride with john... i always remember the prayer he said before we took off and that was for God to make "tucks" in the road... i didnt know what it meant until he said... well its like you make a tuck or a pleat, to make the distance between two points shorter... ever since that time i always prayed that... even one time when i was driving back from the cape to lenox i prayed that, and when i arrived in lenox, i was reminded by the holy spirit that i didnt pass Springfield!! (well i did but i guess it got "tucked")

anywayzzzzzzzzzz...on another note.... john palmer WAS the comptroller of TBS at that time and all i can say is... he had to have known SOMETHING about funds and their appropriation or misappropriation... such as they were... so maybe not as innocent as we may have thought... hmmmm...

and on another note still.... this whole thing about people dying early because of this and that and the whole death of Steve Nordfors... what the heck did he do to deserve to buy the farm at his young age.... i thought he was pretty dogmatic in his loyalty to TBS at the time of his death.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and then we have all these dissidents out here still kicking around... i still dont get THAT doctrine... will someone please enlighten me on the tongue cancer dying early stuff...? i thought the rain fell on the just AND the unjust... where are Jobs cronies when you need them for advice?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Steve Nordfors was my roomate in the Lee dorm
when he first came to Lenox. Great Christian guy.
Very sincere and easy to get along with. Anyone
saying anything about is full of it!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I meant to say "bad about him" is full of it!
I heard that he passed away, but many times I
would come back to the room and see him praying
with his bible open, and he didn't even know
when I was coming back. He was a sincere guy
and you felt better after talking to him.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

John Palmer was a former banker and for all his notable points he did know something was going on and not just the financial misuse of ministry money.
In 1981 when Carl H. Stevens was about to confess his adultery to the congregation, Pastor Mike Graves and Pastor John Palmer talked him out of it. They assured him that he was "Gods Man" and that doing so would jeopordize "the ministry".
Pastor Chet Farmer was there to witness this.

One of the reasons John Palmer was "sent" to pastor the Murrysville, Pa. church in 1993 was to get him out of Stevens hair. This was known amongst insiders at the time.
A year later Pastor Palmer found he was unable to salvage what was left of an affiliated church that began to break up because some of the questionable teachings. While Pastor Palmer went back to homebase, and the affiliated church faded away in less than 1 year after he left.
John Palmer was a loyal follower of Stevens and bartered away his more noble intentions so as not lose to his position with ggwo.
When he came back here 1n 1994 Stevens "rewarded" him by making Pastor Palmer head of the Fellowship hall resturaunt. Another scheme to keep him out of the way and outside of the finace office.
Pastor Palmer was given a big sendoff when he died a few years later because he was loved by a number of us. But in Stevens case it was because he remained "loyal" to Stevens and never came forward with any of what he knew that could have saved others and brought Stevens to accountabilty.
He (Palmer) may have anticipated that he didn't have much time on this earth and didn't want to spend his last years trying to start a new like many who have left. He was a different man in his last year than the one he had been previously.
Maybe he died with his regrets of not speaking up.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Thank you Anon 216 for saying the truth about Palmer.

Roberta

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Anon & RJ,

There are some mis characterizations here.

You wrote "and never came forward with any of what he knew that could have saved others and brought Stevens to accountabilty."

This is a statement built on some bad premises.

First off Pastor Palmer did come forward with a lot of people on several coccasions that I am aware of many of the things he disagreed with in terms of the ministry.


This includes correction of several people. He corrected many people on ceretain things in my presence. He told me he was uncomfortable with with how the ministry had become so much on the defensive in certain matters. This included church discpline.

He often used tactics to correct people above him and below him. Tactics that frankly would have had no effect had he stepped out of the minisry.

Several matters happen before he became real sick had they worked out, that would have dramatically changed the ministry for the better that Pastor Palmer was involved in.

This includes the whole Pandora's box of West Baltimore Greater Grace, what eventually became Baltimore's Academy of Excellance, and some other matters.

On the situation with him Bartering away anything. There are some premises you are implying that are not correct in my thinking.

I could give you case in point with a situation regarding the BGEA and Palmers views vs. Carl Stevens views. The same could be said of two marriages I am aware of where Pastor Palmer was aware of women who had been physcially abused and stepped in against many in the ministry.

Another point, when I came into the ministry in 1995 Pastor Palmer did not have the leadership role at Fellowship Hall. He headed up much of the counseling and he was highly involved in dealing with some sour spots in the local area (the local church).

He was a man of prayer. He was incredibly gentle in many ways, and he often woould defend people who frankly like myself didn't deserve his kind words.

When Keri and I got married he was the only person who encouraged it, he was the only one who defended it (including to Pastor, D. Lewis, B Veader, R LeClair, S. Monroe, and others).

He went out of his way to comfort Keri when her family went on an attack against us, and he was furious over the actions of several people who worked with me.

When I left GGWO he believed itwas so that I would be able to Bless Carl Stevens in later years, and this was especially true of MBCS.

Maybe he was wrong. Maybe he was all the negative things that we identify as people who were at GGWO/TBS/MBCS.

I am sure folks like myself and a few others feel the same weight when people talk about people who were there.

I liked the man, and to me any man who would pray with me, and would roll tears when there was a counsel call that was serious was a man of merit and sincerity.

Again if he was there things would be different.

God Bless

[lmao (68.33.60.157)]

dear Anonymous (216.183.184.253)on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 02:38 pm

You obviously think you knew him.

HA!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Ditto from me to "lmao" who posted 6/29 @ 6:51 p.m.

I was part of Pastor Palmer's personal staff. He very much made people's lives difficult because he dealt with issues right up front. He respected Pastor Steven's office, but it didn't stop him from addressing issues that were "off", regardless of who/whom it was.

I worked with him and served him. Thanks to him, many details of my own personal life changed for the better. He was a man of principle, integrity, prayer and he was very transparent. You knew EXACTLY where you stood with him, he made no "bones" about it.

However, what "216" posted about the Fellowship Hall was not completely true. Yes, Pastor Palmer was put in charge over it, but it was not to keep him out of Pastor Steven's hair.

"216" says he was a different man the last year of his life. Hah!! He still had the same (forgive me Bobbie, Sue & Amy) aggressive determination, stubbornness and he would let nothing stand in his way of getting what he wanted done. When he spoke, you listened, and you did what he said! He had to be "right" -- and at times I tried to match my stubbornness with his, only to my chagrin in finding out he was right, and that he could see things in a totally different (and correct) way than I did.

I used to marvel at the way he worked with the staff pastors...especially Pastor Veader who many times had to be told to shut up by Pastor Palmer for his "off" statements and inappropriate remarks made about people in the ministry that I witnessed many times. One gentle rebuke from Papa Palmer was all it took and he went scampering off down the road, because he (P. Veader) knew he had crossed the line again...
and yet, Pastor Palmer never changed the way he treated him or others, he was totally "Finished Work" in his thinking and actions.

I agree with Neil's post above...he died too soon in my opinion. Right in the midst of changes being made at GGWO, many that he initiated. He is sorely missed still today.

An Old Friend

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

The last post by "an old Friend" is by far one of the most honest and great post on this whole forum. The negative side and positive side of John Palmer was his stuborness.

Heard come across the bow of Pastors pool" Put a sock in it will" Then back from another Pastor "But Pastor Palmer? Then the response "I said PUT a sock in it Francis" From Pastor Palmer.

The man earned the title "Father" like few others ever could.

Heck yes he was human. I would not want to have to compare my work to his.

In the course of one week he handled an amazing amount of counseling calls and the vast majority were ones nobody else could handle. He would weep while being tough with people. He would hold my hand in prayer as somebody else was suicidal, and he showed an ability to change the mind of the person for whom everybody on this forum and the majority of his staff was unable to change.

If some of his ideas and principals were in place now than frankly There would be zero need for this forum.

I knew John Palmer. I saw him almost everyday of my life for 3+ years, his desk was beside mine. He was a sweet, sincere, kind and generous man.

More so than anything else he had a Shepherds heart. I see very little of that heart anywhere, any longer.


When people say they knew John Palmer and they describe him as something other than I just descrbe they are intentionally beating on him because of where he served. They could do the same to me or Kent Sutorius, for that matter many others.

Guilt by association, and even guilt by presence, or guilt by loyalty is not a real guilt.

In HIs Peace,


Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Truely spoken Neil. Thanks for agreeing with me.
One of these days I'll email you and identify myself. Till then, I remain, "an old friend."

Gee whiz now they pick on dead people here!!

Someone who is basking with the Lord!!

Whats next??????

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

I think it will surprise a few folks.

Neil

[lmao (68.33.60.157)]

Pastor Palmer was the sweetest guy. He really loved you and looked out for you. He'd even check to see how you were doing. He certainly wasn't perfect and admitted it freely. He had to deal with alot of crap. Pastor Stevens loved him dearly. He knew his faults and shortcomings but loved him just the same. We all did.

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

Roberta,
you seem to have a lot to say concerning things about which you knbow very little. Before you go "amening" someones slanderous comments, you should first find out if they are true. You did not know John Palmer. I know that for a fact because I also spent many years very close to him and never saw you. Aside from his occasional visit to the bookstore I doubt you even ever spoke to him. Anyone that knows him knows that he was kind and caring and a man of integrity. was he perfect? Are you? are any of us? He had a heart for young people and invested selflessly in many lives. He was a bit gruff some times, but that was his nature. He was a "Bottom Line" Guy. If he protected anyone it was out of honor and respect. Shame on any one who would tarnish the memory of such a kind man. Safe though I guess since he is not around to defend himself. actually not safe just cowardly. Thank you Neil and others for your kind words about him. Roberta you should watch which band wagon you jump on before jumping.

[Sam I am (24.131.172.186)]

64.12.117 said: "Gee wiz, how they pick on dead people here."

Not all are dead. Some are close though. The average poster here is smelling blood though. Make sure you descend in a cage when you come here.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

To 64.12.117.20 and Sam I Am
If Neil didnt want us talking about dead people , why did he start this thread?
He brought the subject up.
Have you ever noticed that the Bible doesnt hold back on mentioning the complicit wrongdoing people took part in while alive. Read the book of Kings or Chronicles for some interesting eulogies.There aint no coverup or sentimental loyalty cause of convoluted ministry doctrine there.
Palmer may have been a good man for the most part but he was also an enabler to the treachery since he obviously chose not to make that big a deal out of the sin he was aware of.
He obviously knew where to stop short to protect his job as Anon 216.183.184 alluded to.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Actually I brought up Pastor Palmer for a reason.

I had a long discussion with a staff person and a former leader of the bible college or two about some of the dynamics certain people held influence within GGWO over the years.

Pastor Palmer was brought up as a resource in principal.

I am glad others who are in similiar situations I am in, and those who like to see something good come out of all the discussions here that we have a bit of focus on some possible scenarios.

The way in which I arrived at discussing Pastor Palmer was that a few people who wanted something to happen actually said they thought the most reasonable way to "arrive" where they wanted and also in terms of some of the remarks that have come from people who are inside GGWO staff and attendees is that if we could accomplish something I had suggested earlier than something major would happen.

Thats really. I don't have to defend Pastor Palmer. He is no longer with us, and his maker is very qualified to decide what is right for his soul.

As a brother in Christ I think the people I have spoken to, and some who have called me know exactly what I say when I speak a little cryptic here.

Neil

[Nancy Curra (172.155.75.110)]

I knew Pastor Palmer personally. He counseled me several times and was a friend. He never tried once to spare my feelings and always gave me Godly Biblical true F/W counsel and guidance. I miss him terribly and love him dearly. He was a great influence on my life and perhaps the Godliest man I have ever known. Thank you Lord for giving us Pastor Palmer in this life.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

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