Barbara Stevens Where Are You

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

And you're pretending to be what...a believer?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

posing as a christian, that is...

so...cordell, i do have 'balls'

LOL

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I never pretended to be anything.

Tis you posing as a Christian...where's your sidekick Cordell? If you think Jesus Christ is, you're more off than I first thought...

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 06:49 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The real problems, with GGWO as I see it are:

- lack of accountability in leadership
- lack of fiscal transparency and accountability
- over-emphasis on personality and not enough on Christ.
- mistreatment of dissenters and ex-members.

The problems I see with many who leave embittered are.

-unforgiveness, even after years of having left (Time does NOT heal, forgiveness does.)
- blaming others for your own decisions.
- blaming others for your own dysfuntionalism.
- desire for vengeance. they wil not be satisfied until GGWO is a pile of ashes.

posted originally by Sam Spade

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

If you are "on" I am glad to be "off."

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hey you said it, not me...referring to your comment that you are "glad" to be off.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

The tee shirts are on the way, sonny. And so is your sign.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

To you and wanting your damn witness! You really witness Christ. You are indeed damned. I am sorry brainwashed and soaked in poor Carl's poision. I meant to say anointed.

[Sam Spade (24.131.172.186)]

205.188,
Why do keep reposting my post?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

You people are really ****ed up!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Thank you 152! How did it take you to come up with that post?

[Tweedledee (69.53.59.250)]

He thinky long time!

[Anonymous (4.139.27.107)]

Did anyone at convention notice if Barbara has perhaps cut her hair or gotten that makeover yet?

[Dianne Ackley (149.174.164.83)]

4 139 My what a boring little life you must have to worry about such a menial thing.Why dont you just get a life??????????

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

This thread needs to die.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

It was dead to begin with

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Well said 68.33

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

But the superficial and banal add such "shallow diversity" to this otherwise heartbreaking situation.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

4.139..u crack me up! I wish I knew then and I wish I knew u now!

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

Thank you to my one fan "Anonymous 205".
This thread accomplished its intent; which was to provoke a response, er reaction, from someone in leadership...

...Mission accomplished! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

oh I am not that anonymous... at one point you thought me to be DeDe... that cracked me up too!

I love DeDe but she would be the first to agree I am no DeDe...

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Your humor reminds me of Mallika.. The Guyana/Malayisan/Hungarian/Brit but schooled in Ireland,doctor. Did you know her?

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

Are you RonRon?

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

...or perhaps JackieJackie?

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe you're NancyNancy!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

nono!

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

Regretfully, I didn't know Mallika; but she sounds like an intriguing and fun individual to know! Perhaps someday...

Yo tengo pregundo? Is this question a "red herring" to throw me off the "scent" of your possible identity? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

...just curious!

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

dodos in doodoo?

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

lol.. not at all my dear.. you really remind me of Mallika and that is a fair compliment if you had known her. She returned to Guyana a few years back after her father's death, took over his clinic and practices medicine to the poor. But what a wry sense of humor she had!

Cara
ancara60@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

Cordell,

Don't you mean dodos in the Galapagos?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hey isn't that near Guyana??

[Anonymous (4.139.90.180)]

Thanks for the compliment dear Cara!

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

4.139 could you perhaps choose one of the above double alliterations as a pseudonym?

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

kool-aid... the official drink of guyana

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Or you could be neeneenaanaanoonoo

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

How is this for a sick twist.. Mallika's father conducted the state's medical investigation into Jonestown mass suicides.. And then his daughter hooked up with GG? He was none to happy about that!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Barbara, there is a movie coming out friday that is called, Anchorman. You should go see it because it is suppose to take please in the 70's. I know you would feel right at home and maybe get a few new ideas. Hey maybe you can slip away in your old pontiac firebird and try a disguise like a taupe eye shadow instead of blue. Gawd somebody might think you are the mini version of Mimi on Drew Carey. Was that the look you were looking for. It's good to be bad. Alright all you self righteous people. Go on the war path, but you bury your head when it comes to all Barbar's misdeeds with her husband and good friend Cathy Hill all those years ago. It continues to this day. Wasn't this the message board for Barbara Stevens to stand up and speak out? To much idle chatter. I know you all love idol worship. I will pray that you can be released from the Carl Stevens brainwashing and be deprogrammed. God loves you and Jesus died for your sins, not CHS.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

205

I think you need another Elron adjustment or something...settle down Beavis.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

losers and people who worship false idols. The question is who goes to GGWO and adorns Carl Stevens

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Cara - you are one of those you accuse

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

And are you Pastor Graziano?

And if you mean the leaders of Greater Grace I accuse?.. then yes, I am accusing them.

And if you sat there on Friday night of the convention and amened Pastor's message and watched him stagger around the stage, slurring his words and did not demand an explanation and accountability for his actions then I accuse you. Don't lie to yourself and don't lie to your people.

And do not align me with cowardly leaders that do not have the guts to tell the simple truth and do the right thing. Lots of us recent departees find ourselves looking for new schools for our children, some are out of jobs, no insurance, shunned by friends, past support system completely gone. Some of us have to watch our grown children cry because they are now friendless. Some of us have watched our child silently weep through a new church service and hear the words from their child's mouth "why did they force us to have to start all over."

Why did this happen? Because one man got far into sin and no one in GG will stop him. He will die and they are enabling his death. If you speak the truth at GG you as good as gone. Did you not see at the convention the good men and women of God gone?? Do you have any idea how many are making their exit?

If you are pastor in Gg then you have a responsiblity to do something.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

and isn't accountability why we started posting on factnet? According to my understanding of loving another person, wouldn't telling them the truth with as much love you have better than allowing them to continue a life of deception and the ultimate consequences because of it?

My mother suffered from vascular dementia and Alzheimers.....believe me, it was a long 5 yrs of caring for her. Many hard decisions had t be made and carried out. I often found myself at odds with her and family because I had to step in and prevent her from doing herself anymore harm or embarassment. It wasn't easy, but necessary.

I say, if you love those around you there are times such as this, that you must step up and speak the truth.

What are you afraid of?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Are you afraid that if you say the truth they will accuse you? Afraid that your life will suddenly mean less, because if Carl falls you do too?? Afraid of persecution, character assasination, loss of income, loss of security in your belief system....why are you afraid of the truth?

What kind of pastors are so weak that they allow a sick old sin-soaked man run a church of God for their own gains?

I used to think that all the men surrounding Carl were decieved. I no longer believe this.

Whay was the Friday night convention tape altered? If he was speaking the truth there would have been no need.

Wake up please and save your brothers and sisters in Christ from further contamination from this corrupt system. Do it for God. I beg you...

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

So true Lee!

I love this Amy Carmichael example of how one should conduct their life.

Past your conduct through these three sieves she states:

Is it kind?
Is it true?
Is it necessary?

Bringing the leadership to accountability for their actions after they have twarthed the biblical process for four decades, is kind, true and very necessary.

In the midst of the humanity of thoughts written on this forum, it is plain to see this is not some organized human movement. It is hundreds of individuals from all walks of life, some with anger and some with wounds. Some with restraint and some with none at all. I have seen the best of humanity and some of the nastiest. This forum can be mixed and mangled, but there is one common thread in all these threads and that is "a story to tell" of one's own pain and betrayal at the hands of TBS/GGWO. Our stories are our own but put them all together and it becomes God's story. And He wants it told!

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

PG, I wrote this on another thread and did not receive a response, why?


how are you handling this biblically PG?

Have you gone alone to the leaders/elders yet?

If you have, did you receive the truth? Or did you receive what you wanted to hear, knowing it was not the truth? It is a great solution for leaders that want to continue in sin, isn't it? If you pursue further than you are marked as a divider and they slander you as evil and discredit your biblical walk.

So at that point you have two choices, keep silent (which is not biblical) or leave. TBS/GGWO has perfected this scenario for the last four decades. That is why there are over 14,000 posts here. They have discarded alot of wonderful, godly, biblical Christians that dared question their biblical responsiblity to the flock. It is the leadership at Gg that has twarthed the biblical process. And how long did we all think God was going to allow this to happen to His children?

It is the end days of GGWO. After years of hindering the biblical process, years of hurting their fellow brethren in the name of "the work," God is bringing in a new age of accountability for GG leadership. They are also now living in the effects of their sin. The current elders are left dealing with a drugged and demented man, they pretend they are handling this situation biblically but truthfully they are operating as they always have. Ignore the sin of leaders, cover it up with a canned statement, silence the dissenting voices through slander and go about their business as if nothing is happening. Except this time it is not working for them. This time the biblical process is being forced on them, not by us but by God.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

This exchange is too important to be buried...can it get a thread of it's own?

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

copy/paste it

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

sorry folks, I don'tknow how to cut/paste.....anyone?

Got a call from an old friend this morning. He'd love to catch up. He's got a lot of reading to do!

[Anonymous (67.249.230.186)]

Carl Stevens is CRAZY, how in the world people still following him?
Are they brain deaths or something!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Did anybody see Barbara wigged out last Sunday?

[PlsThinkAboutThis (172.136.173.44)]

Hebrews 3:15 "Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them]. Seeing then that the promise remains over [from past times] for some to enter that rest, and that those who formerly were given the good news about it and the opportunity, failed to appropriate it and did not enter because of disobedience,"

Hebrews 4:7 "Again He sets a definite day, [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts."

And not that anyone cares to hear this but there are things trying to be accomplished. It is a difficult time for any ministry when the founder ages and the difficulties of aging fall upon them. They know things need to be done but quite frankly these are new waters for them and they need much prayer to let go of things.

True Christians will simply pray. There is a remnant in every church as there is a remnant here in Baltimore.

Pray for wisdom on how to handle things in a Godly manner for that remnant and ask God to take out the weeds in the leadership and the Body.

Yes I am saying this for I know we have a big problem right now, but we do have beautiful Chrisitians here and beautiful missionaries whose hearts are simply to serve God and are under the banner of GG and yes God has called us here.

No church has a handle on the whole truth, not us, not any, and many have their faults as well we do. It would be arrogant of us to think we have the knowledge of the whole Truth. We know we don't. Those who think this simply need God to open their eyes. And He will in His time for His Purpose, not our time, not our purpose.

We do have a purpose the same as any Born Again Church and that we know, to learn of Him and preach the Gospel, teach and make disciples of Him.

We are not all evil nor are we ignorant. We are in a war and at a parting of the Red Sea. The Egyptians will be swallowed up and the rest will go forward to carry out God's will of getting to know Him and sharing His love with others.

We will not focus on what we must put in God's hands right now. We need God's wisdom, guidance and strength.

Thank you for those of you who are discerning the real Truth in all of this. You are necessary voices in the midsts of the fire. Thank you.

In love,

Nancy

Thank you for praying and demanding accountability. I too want accountability.

In love, Nancy Curra

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

You did recieve a response!
Go back and look at the thread.

It wasn't the response you wanted though.
You continued to berate me like a cheap soap opera lawyer, so the conversation ended. Then, you posted this 'Cuz I care about you - feel your pain' thing.

I said that if I told you what steps I've taken it would uncover other people involved.

The personal details of how I have handled this are private and you will not be getting a play by play. There are no doubt, bunches of pastors and leaders browsing these boards, despite the 'warnings'.

Sorry to have to be so blunt, Cara.
PG

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Nancy, Your statement sounds biblical at first glance but it is not....


You wrote:

It is a difficult time for any ministry when the founder ages and the difficulties of aging fall upon them. They know things need to be done but quite frankly these are new waters for them and they need much prayer to let go of things.

True Christians will simply pray.


My point: Pastor is NOT old and the difficulties in GG are NOT because Pastor is aging. The elders are NOT in new waters they are operating as they always have. It is just not working as well for them because the structure of their counterfeit system is crumbling because of the effects of long-time SIN in the leadership. They are not in prayer, they are in "damage control" meetings or attacking and slandering each each as they jockey in power-positioning. This is NOT a new problem, the present is very connected to the past. Sin in the leadership needed to be dealt with over three decades ago. It never was, instead it became the foundation on which every decision within the leadership was made based on lies, canned statements for damage control. Everything was justified to protect Pastor. Fast forward to 2003 and you have a man named Carl Stevens, he is accountable to no one. Last summer the inner circle (the elder's power came after Paul tried to intervene to save his father's life) were distraught over Pastor's incoherency because of his drug addiction. They know the system Nancy, you do not. They have operated in a corrupt and illegitimate system void of God in the activites of daily living, they knew what would happen if anyone tried to tell Pastor what to do. They did nothing! Nothing Nancy, nothing.. oh except damage control. ABD started to be recorded in his office. They lied to the body and said he was home suffering from back problems, various other excuses. They all knew he was home killing himself on drugs. Eventually they were forced to destroy the taped ABD messages from his office. He was completely incoherent. They finally realized they no choice but to force him to step down and get help. The never-used and secret board of elders signed his resignation letter. But guess what? They were afraid to give it him. This is not heresy, this is an eyewitness account. I was there and so were many others. They pressed Paul to do it with the rest of the family. With ministry money, they flew the oldest brother and sister down from Maine. Think about that.. think Nancy, the elders had a major problem of drug abuse if they are willing to use the church's money to gather a family intervention. The invention was refused by Pastor. He was actually too drugged up at the "morning" session for a real intervention to take place. He told his family he could get off the drugs on his own. He then turned his wrath on Paul for daring to touch his authority. He put new elders on the board for the sole purpose of attacking Paul. We all know what has happened to Paul, he has been slandered and discredited, lied about and forced out the door by his own father, family and closest friends. The same friends that are the current elders. No Nancy, they are not sitting around praying, they have no time for prayer, they are busy busy spinning lies and canned statements. Damage control is a full time job for them. In December, Pastor crashed from his out-of-control drug abuse, he brought on his near-death experience. He is unrepentant and out-of-control and he is doing it to his body again. So don't say the elders are praying about what to do. They are grown men and they needed to stop this insanity over a year ago. There is no excuse under heaven that keeps them from acting in a godly biblical fashion. They are self-serving, power-hungry men, who do know care about you, or Pastor or the body. There is absolutely no justification for their behavior. They absolutely share in the sin and they absolutely are as accountable as Carl H. Stevens

[This better? (172.136.71.179)]

Proverbs 18:19 "A brother offended is harder to be won over than a strong city, and [their] contentions separate them like the bars of a castle."

This is true. If we cause a person to stumble he is hard to win back. Now this is the human element, but when I read this verse I realized that although I have been hurt by people, they were people used by Satan to offend.

Then I read this Luke 7:23 "And blessed happy, with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, apart from outward conditions--
and to be envied is he who takes no offense in Me and who is not hurt or resentful or annoyed or repelled or made to stumble [whatever may occur]."

Ultimately it is God who allows the offense to test my heart...which way will I go. Meditate on this verse...It set me free from man.

Hebrews 3:15 "Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts
as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them]. Seeing then that the
promise remains over [from past times] for some to enter that rest, and that those who formerly were given the good news about it
and the opportunity, failed to appropriate it and did not enter because of disobedience,"

Hebrews 4:7 "Again He sets a definite day, [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] saying through David
after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts."

And not that anyone cares to hear this but there are things trying to be accomplished. It is a difficult time for any ministry when the founder
ages and the difficulties of aging fall upon them. They know things need to be done but quite frankly these are new waters for them and they
need much prayer to let go of things.

True Christians will simply pray. There is a remnant in every church as there is a remnant here in Baltimore.

Pray for wisdom on how to handle things in a Godly manner for that remnant and ask God to take out the weeds in the leadership and the Body.

Yes I am saying this for I know we have a big problem right now, but we do have beautiful Chrisitians here and beautiful missionaries whose
hearts are simply to serve God and are under the banner of GG and yes God has called us here.

No church has a handle on the whole truth, not us, not any, and many have their faults as well we do. It would be arrogant of us to think
we have the knowledge of the whole Truth. We know we don't. Those who think this simply need God to open their eyes. And He will in His
time for His Purpose, not our time, not our purpose.

We do have a purpose the same as any Born Again Church and that we know, to learn of Him and preach the Gospel, teach and make disciples of Him.

We are not all evil nor are we ignorant. We are in a war and at a parting of the Red Sea. The Egyptians will be swallowed up and
the rest will go forward to carry out God's will of getting to know Him and sharing His love with others.

We will not focus on what we must put in God's hands right now. We need God's wisdom, guidance and strength.

Thank you for those of you who are discerning the real Truth in all of this. You are necessary voices in the midsts of the fire. Thank you.

Thank you for praying and demanding accountability. I too want accountability.

In love, Nancy Curra

[Nancy Curra (172.136.71.179)]

I only know what has happened here in Baltimore and what I have been privey too. Those from years passed I can not contribute too and I believe they have legitimate claims. I am of this present era and want to see things cleaned up here in Baltimore, the right man in the pulpit, the wrong pastors gone, accountability and repentence from the stage.
I can only speak for what I know is going on now, for my part in it, my letters written, when I was slammed against the wall, when I was brought onto the carpet in need to defend my Bible beliefs.
I can only speak of now, I know some very precious Christians and missionaries here who are oblivious, who serve God with all their heart, win souls and seek Him. For their sake and mine and all there needs to be some radical changes, a display of humility in certain leaders and a public appology and where necessary compensation. Broken families and marriages unfortunately can only be healed by God, no man can fix that sad damage done. This is why I added the other verses. It is the Bible that frees us not corrupt man. Believe me I have heard and seen things but because before I had fear to speak and fear of men and leaders I didn't, and when I did wow slam slam slam. But now I have nothing to fear and I have said much to leaders. They are listening and they know what I know. I am not here to defend anyone. But there needs to be some spiritual and soul healing and Only God and His healing balm of His Word can do that. Hope this makes it a little more clear that I am not in defense but on offense and unafraid. I just sense people need the Word to heal them, not rhetorick and unresolved issues from the past. Believe me they will be more than compensated by God when others so called Godly works are burned.

[Nancy C (172.136.71.179)]

Oh and btw I know all about the damage control, the trips to other churches, internal and the whole gammit. And also I see the lack of humility in Dr. Stevens, have always been afraid to approach him and although I sit in the church never considered Him to be the pastor of my soul. I am not naive I am just in the midst of what many churches every where are at sometime or another or their whole ministry, corruption and protection of leaders who they fear.
But I am not here for them. There are many beautiful Christians, some missionaries and precious other souls who need Christ. And in my condition and for lack of help I cannot move myself so I trust that God still wants me here for the sake of the hurting. I don't know if I can communicate that in written words to you. But you know me I think and if not feel free to email me. I am not afraid to talk about anything now, for I no longer fear men, any men, leadership or otherwise. God has healed my aching soul in this area of years of tears for fear of men. Just click my email is there

[Cara (149.174.164.83)]

Not fair PG13,

Don't turn humorous on me and make me laugh..

I was not berating you like a cheap soap opera lawyer. Though I must admit I have never seen a "cheap soap opera lawyer" but obviously you have been watching those soap operas... lol

I am not pressing for details but your premise. I want to know how you believe you can handle the current situation in a biblical way when it is obvious that the biblical process has been thwarted by the elders. So one more question: Do you believe the current elders of GG homebase are being truthful? Biblical? Or do you agree with my premise that the Mt18 process is cut off as soon as anyone (in meekness) approaches Pastor with the need for the serious issues of drug abuse and lying to the body and heresy spoken in the pulpit, to be addressed?

And I don't think I got "all I care and feel your pain" with you. I am obviously interested in what you think, why else would I be pressing you? I do think it is weird that I feel I knew you as soon as you came on the forum. Because I have never said two words to you in real life. So I see something "divine" in this interaction of ours. I sense God is expecting even more from you in "such a time as this," hence my interest is God-based and people-based. It is a "sensing of the spirit" thing, PG13!

Cara

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Cara,
ok...no more soaps I promise.

I am positive that our part in this can be biblical. That's what I mean. I other words, if one is turned away when they go alone, at least they can know they handled themselves correctly. When one comes with others, if they are ignored, They still handled themselves correctly. When after consideration, if they decide to write an open letter and resign or come one more time or whatever, they still handled themselves well.

Yes, the process tends to be intimidating and difficult, whether in a small church or a large one. Some pastors are very open to criticism because it makes them stronger, wiser and more effective. Others are insecure and immediately pigeon-hole you as a trouble-maker.

These thoughts are scattered I know, we're all still trying to wade through this.

[Anonymous (172.136.71.179)]

I agree with Cara. What do you do when a man is not entreatable? Especially when others have gone to the man? What is the next Biblical step? Isnt' it removal?

[Anonymous (67.249.224.198)]

Barbara, Please speak up!

[Cara (149.174.164.83)]

Thoughts scattered like a "cheap multiple-personality soap opera character?".. (just messin' with you PG13.)

Well, in the context of the biblical route as you stated in the "first-person personal" route, I agree with you. If one does approach that "stonewall" of lack of polity within the GG infrastructure for accountability, in the manner of Mt18, then one can have the peace of mind of doing it by the book.

Maybe this is where our paths verve off PG13. I have that peace of mind of approaching this situation biblically. I practice what I preach here. But once thwarted, I felt biblically, ethically and morally NOT to keep silent. I was pressed by the spirit to demand accountability in leaders. It was not ok to lie, it was not ok to slander a contrary voice, it was not ok to allow Pastor to speak and counsel under the influence of drugs. It was not ok to berate the body into giving more money, being more faithful when the elders knew perfectly well that spirit within the church was one of confusion and disillusionment. These actions point to a very unhealthy church and fit the category of cultic behavior. I believe if the shepherd is hurting his flock and the under-shepherd's allow it to continue then I am sinning if I don't stand up and tell the truth. I must always guard my heart and check my motivations but I believe that being silent for me is sin. Telling the truth has cost me much. It is not the easy path, remaining silent would have benefited me personally. There is no self-serving benefit. But I have no regrets, I have the surity of a clean life lived before God alone. I have peace of mind living by the book.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

Cara-- re: your 10;09 am post from today

Nancy doesnt get it, she is in partial denial.
I say partial because she is able to acknowledge the lack of humility in Stevens.
But she is a perfect example of someone who doesnt want to be confused with the facts.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Cara, you don't have to answer this: were you in a leadeship post in the church or a member?

The removal of a pastor is optional if it's done in accord with the church's own constitution. (That of course having biblical premise)
The elders have to do the removing. This could be done by a majority vote.
If the elders vote and the pastor is not removed, then those elders who voted to have him removed will be marked as traitors. (unless the vote happens to be a closed confidential one???)
Herein lies the problem. Courage and loyalty to truth - desperately needed here.

As soon as an elder in a church as such raises the question for vote, people start talking.

Acts 20:28 I do think the elders first call is protect the flock, not the other elder/s.

A body member can bring his/her issue to the pastor, then the elders. If enough had an issue, somebody eventually is going to have to listen.
If enough letters were written to the pastor cc; the elders and visa versa, the issue could be addressed without the 'world' seeing this blood-bath and having the Gospel damaged. Maybe it's too late for all that ...I dunno

[Cara (152.163.253.102)]

PG,

You are correct. Two problems thwart any effort to address this.

One: Our elders are not appointed/elected to the position they now hold by the congregation. Our elders are hand-picked by Pastor. The only criteria to that position is unfailing loyalty to Pastor. The latest elder appointed is a perfect example of that.. Roger Stenger.. what are his qualifications? Protecting Pastor. So we have a situation now where the founder/pastor is doing drugs. What is the main function of the elders now and at convention? They spend their days dealing with the onslaught of branch pastors. If you have spoken to them then you know the score. They appease with sincere words, shake their heads and say "we are working to make things better." This is damage control, in reality, they are operating as they always have. That is to allow Pastor to do and say what he wants with no accountablity. They are enablers,period. And they patch things up as they go along. But there is too many patches to fill now, the whole thing is full of holes and sinking fast. They have lost so many great men and women of God. I and many of us have gone alone, wrote letters, spoke with Pastor and the results are always the same. You are marked. I have heard the most terrible slander about myself and about very godly men and women who only honored God. Those positions of power are my friends. I really believed they had some character when this whole thing began over a year ago. I loved these people but I can say with first hand knowledge they are not honorable, they are dishonest and lack integrity. I ashamed of them, I am disgusted at their self-serving cowardliness. I loved my pastor, I believed in him. I still love him but I have zero respect for him. He is a very sick man. He needs to get checked into a hospital or he will die.

Second problem: If you a pew-sitter then you have no idea all this going on behind the scenes. You trust the pulpit to be telling the truth. You have been well-taught never listen to evil. Now doesn't the above paragraph sound like evil to you? Before all this happened I would have silenced anyone trying to speak about my pastor this way. These people will never ever stand up and demand accountability. They have been taught the exact opposite! They are trusting good people and they have been deceived. It really is an outrage PG. And there are no easy solutions for each individual.

[Anonymous (67.243.133.169)]

Cara you are a wonderful advocate of truth!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I have known Roger Stenger for many years and believe he is a man of integrity

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

Yes 205, I thought they all had integrity.

How sad for us all to learn differently.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

How have you learned differently in his case?

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

PG:
I think that you are trying so desperatly to believe that the way a normal church opperates is the same way that GG operates. They are so very good at perfecting their craft (over 30 years) that the average person is pulled into it before they even know what is happening.
At first you are so over whelmed with love that you feel like this is what you thought it was always supposed to be like. It is almost like putting a letter in an envelope you slip it in and the next thing you know its sealed and the deal is done. You are enveloped into this world that you are so caught up in you don't even know how it happened. If you don't have a strong group of Christian friends and people outside of that church that love you then they will take over your life.
Everything that is their will becomes God's will and everything that is your will becomes something from Satan.
I remember at an event some time ago, a new believer had come in and asked Pastor how do you know if something is God's will, and instead of saying something like search for scripture, or pray for peace about it, he said: Ask me.
There were so many moments like that, and it isn't right.
Cara you are amazing.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

209,
I have read many sad things about Pastor here that I have had to acknowledge were probably true...HOWEVER, one thing that I have never heard him say is "Ask me" if someone is looking for God's will. He has always taught the believer-priesthood relationship, and I have heard him say over and over that he will not tell someone what to do. So I find your story a little hard to believe.

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

I wasn't talking about Carl Stevens (as the Pastor) I was at a daughter church of GG (not even my own) but a Pastor taught at GG. I am sorry for the misstep.

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

I wasn't talking about Carl Stevens (as the Pastor) I was at a daughter church of GG (not even my own) but a Pastor taught at GG. I am sorry for the misstep.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Keep telling it like it is Cara !

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

You know I am in your corner Cara...but lately that might not be much help...*s* You know where my heart's at.

[Anonymous (80.74.212.169)]

Integrity to cover?

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

209.....This is really not a matter of 'trying to believe' anything about this church. I have been an eye-witness to this church's effectivness at reaching hundreds and hundreds of people for over 20 years. I've seen marriages healed, families strengthened, the lost won and broken people finding a purpose for being alive.
(Yes, an eyewitness)

I have not seen the abuses etc... that are being posted in this board.

It's the difference between watching a car accident on the highway 10 minutes ago and reading about another one 15 years later...not the same effect. What I have seen has had a profound impact on me.

Now I'm seeing some things with my own eyes and hearing them with my own ears while trying to work through what's next.

[JustThoughts (172.133.47.136)]

I love Barbara Stevens very much but have always wondered and honestly this is not an attack but just a question, why is it she never has a migraine when we have special events? like banquets, concerts and convention? just a question not an attack. I very rarely, very rarely have seen her in a service in the passed several years.

are you sitting in a seat in baltimore? I am an eyewitness in a seat in baltimore. There are very precious people here and some very precious pastors, But there is a gross abuse of authority when from the pulpit and in raps I hear P.C Stevens name names of people and what has happened to them as a result of leaving the ministry and disagreeing with him, pastor. not with God or God's word but with him. And he would also slam people not even in our church. I heard him with my own ears saying Billy Graham has no follow up. And he uncovered a Christian boxer's affair. He is a famous boxer but his name escapes me. But pastor said the man's name. I have heard him say many names in raps and then say "pr. capello, delete this from the tape"

Yet he just said it in front of hundreds of us. Why delete if it is not wrong pastor? so here we are, his faithful congregants, living by his example because if he said it then it's Bible?????

And if I asked a question about the Bible really wanting an answer many times I was embarrassed in a rap or rebuked because I asked what a verse meant.

Then when I wrote a letter in privacy to pastor about concerns I had about trends and changes my letter was given to another pastor to read and I was called into that pastor's office.

all my concerns were addressed but answers were twisted to make me feel stupid to have written the letter. also I wrote this after going to other very Godly women and men of God, pastors included who encouraged me to write it, who agreed with me.

Then all of a sudden after being virtually ignored by pastor for many years, he came up to talk to me in church in front of everyone. and wow it made me feel so special and then I didn't think God was mad at me. For years I based my relationship with God on how pastors in the upper inner circle treated me because I was convinced that I was walking with God when they acknowledged me.

it is so sad that I can't go into more. there is just so much and we were encouraged never to talk about things. I wondered so much about this because if we were Christians and we are, why aren't we allowed to talk to staff about things that concerned us?

And then one time I heard pastor say concerning moneys given in the offering to this effect.. You give your tithe first before you give to missionaries and we will decide where the money goes. O how I wish that was taped. It really turned me off.

I was a faithful tither up until that point. I thought in my mind "why can't I give my money to who I want to" God says 10 percent to the church. well isn't the church people? people in need? people who are missionaries? hungry people ihe church? Spirit filled Christians who are poor? can't I give my money to them?

And if a church really believes the Bible and that all Spirit filled Christians are led by God and Phil 4:19 and Matthew 5:22-35 is true why are we coerced by rich people giving the offering in church and using scare tactices to get my money?

Frankly some of the offerings turn me off so much I cannot even think of giving. But I will tell you that of course I would support my church as I pay taxes and pay rent. I know what God wants me to give and I would cheerfully give it if it weren't for canned offerings by rich people given in baltimore.

It so saddens me. And I think this has to grieve the Spirit of God.

Just some thoughts from a GGer in Baltimore who has been exposed to things that shocked.

yes I want answers because I feel shipwrecked and pastorless.

sorry if I wandered off the subject a bit just had to get this out

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I remember the first times I heard things like that...made me feel rather sick to my stomach. it does grieve the Spirit that's for sure. Perhaps some real honest prayer, one on one with Him will help you sort things out. I always seek Him when I am grieved and confused...maybe the full answers don't come right away, but just being with Him quiets my spirit and I remember he is in control...you know?

To stay or leave the ministry was a big question mark for me. I like you felt pastorless, shipwrecked, betrayed, the whole nine yards. But somehow, staying quiet inside, by praying and getting close to God's light....the sins of the ministry were revealed. I left quietly without explanation. God knew why we were going and that seemed like enough.

God is faithful to those who seek Him. I'd suggest that as a starting point. He will lead you to all truth if you are still, and let him,

God bless you friend.I will keep you in my prayers.

Roberta

[Emailmejustclick (172.133.47.136)]

To: 216183184 I am not in partial denial. I am just not able to express this well. I am dear friends with many of the Godly who have left and in the process of doing the same thing. I just haven't put all I know on the table here because quite honestly I am in the middle of a separation anxiety in my personal thought life.

I need to separate all the lies and deceptions and the horror of what I have been taught regarding leaving and illness because I am ill almost died, and have been ill for 14 years.

Secondly I have to separate from my thought life that how a corrupt leader who I once trusted can effect my walk with God. In that I mean I know I have a personal walk with God and God has ministered to me so personally. You can read of that at my site www.livejournal.com/users/inmercyrejoice
But it is like I am the cheated on wife and the hurt runs deep and the fears are real.

I have not slept for several days. I am still in the nursing home and they even give me sleep medication. But every nite I must be having nitemares because I wake up screaming in the middle of the nite. Then I fall back to sleep and wake up every hour.

Thirdly, yes they are even doing damage control with me. I have not been visited or communicated with by more than 3 pastors the entire 8 months I was here. And one was by a few emails, the other came 3 times and one dear and Godly pastor who I trust comes once a week. This pastor didn't come because he was sent by the ministry. He and his wife come on their own. The one sent by the ministry only came 3 or possibly 4 times in 8 months. The reason? They are too busy. But I am sure if I were rich there would be people lined up to visit me. I nearly died 5 times since August, which isn't a bad thing, but not only one pastor came during one of those times and frankly he is not one that I have a relationship or friendship with. It is simply surface for him. But now I am being told the same thing "we are trying to make things better" and they have said things in board meetings and they themselves are being marked. They just don't know what to do. There is a war among the elders and they disagree strongly. Unfortunately I believe myself that there are only 3 that realize the whole truth but have not themselves figured out what they should or can do.

My mother died while I was here and only because of the faithfulness of one pastor who was not sent here but came on his own, was I not alone when I found out of her passing. Granted God Himself did orchestrate this.

Whenever I asked why pastor never even wrote me an email or letter or phone call while I was here I was told he was going thru so much physically which was true except I heard some times on the net when he was preaching and he yelled out with such conviction how he was healed, satan had no power over him and he was as strong as he ever was, yet not one phone call, letter or email.

Granted he and barbara did send me flowers a few days after my mom's death...woohoo...anyway who cares? My mom got saved on her deathbed and is doing a dance in Heaven with Jesus now. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

No I am not in partial or any denial. This is like a child being taken away from it's mother. It is a difficult time for me. I know God will get me through this but up until now I have been walking gingerly. I have posted many things anonymously that I am a witness to.

I will gladly give you the link to the post if you want to know and you email me.

Yes it is because I have friends still in the ministry but I am never going back.
So please don't assume you know me or my heart or what I am thinking because you don't know me.

that puts you way off base. I am a mature Christian and woman of 52. I have walked with God long before I came to GG. I just never had stayed in a church till this one.

Now this I will say however, I did learn much of God's grace, mercy, love and forgiveness in GG and doctrine that is pure. And I believe God did call me here for a season. But as we know all things are for a season.

It is just that I do not have blinders on and have been given the gift of discernment. I just have not put everything out here.

But the blinders came off over 2 years ago when I knew somethings were terribly wrong and didn't line up with the Word of God.

And I have no one to talk to because you are simply admonished not to talk. We are Christians made free by the Blood of Christ, a family. We should be able to communicate with one another without fear, but My God, we can't even post our names because of the repercussions.

Well I am tired of living in fear and not being able to approach an unapproachable elder, the untouchables, the ones above me..I am so very tired of it. I say something to some pastors just in friendly exchange and am totally looked over and ignored. They don't even fellowship with me in all these years. Maybe it's cause I am in a wheelchair and too short?? They can't see me from their high horses. sorry, that was mean. I repent.

I will finish up with this. God is faithful and He is the keeper of our souls. He sent beautiful people to visit me during this time. My questions are why there is such a separation between staff and those of us who give our money and sit in the seats.

I began to feel God didn't love me because I was not worthy of these people. But the Bible says God is no respector of persons and now I know this is true. It took 8 months of separation, isolation unto God and being flat on my back in bed to realize God loves me and to be used by Him is not to know He is using you as much as it is His life is lived and breathed through you. And I eat and drink of Him and Him alone. I thank God He put me flat on my back because the only place I could look was up.

Only God can open and shut eyes. He opened mine. Be careful and kind to those whose eyes are closed and perhaps God will use you to open them up.

In love
Nancy Curra (forgive any spelling errors, bummer no spell check here) and sorry if this is the wrong thread for this post, just don't know which would be the right thread

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

I'm glad you poured all that out, Nancy Curra.
You had important things to say and I'm sure others are touched reading them as well.
Thanks for posting. God bless you.

[Nancy Curra (172.133.47.136)]

There is one thing I want to make very clear. I love all who left and all who stayed. I love the souls of each one in the seats of any church or not, and on the board. I pray for peace and healing and for a decent reconstruction of GG. For Jesus to be high and lifted up. That is my prayer. I have nothing against anyone. It is satan who caused all this from the beginning. But I still have to make decisions according what I believe is God's will for me. I am sorry if I hurt or offended anyone by this post but due to the heavy volume of emails I have been receiving from the board as well as the elders of GG and the unusual people who have come to visit, in that I mean people who never really responded to my initiations of friendship in the past, I felt the need to come right out so people know where I stand.
I am so thankful for the emails and the visits. They were kind and each brought a visitation from our Lord. I have been so edified and encouraged and I thank you all.

Also there is someone posting anonymously signing me and my daughter's name to their posts. Be assured it is not us. My daughter posts using her name every time. She is unafraid and I post anonymously only when I have to say something necessary but prefer to not put my name to those particular posts. In those posts I never mentioned names. But Maria T. seems to think I have as well as some others. So I just want to clarify that. Thanks. God bless you and may the eyes of the blind be opened and where mine need to be opened I know God will.

[Nancy Curra (172.133.47.136)]

One more thing. I fear because of that post I will lose many friends, but those who fear the Lord and are true Christians, those friendships I will never lose and why would I want a fruitless friendship anyway?

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

.

[Anonymous (68.33.22.175)]

Nancy , please could you post your e-mail address? I want to e-mail you...I am a friend who did not know about your present condition and I want to visit you... i think you will be glad to hear from me...I tried to click on the name on the side and it does not work...

[Nancy (172.168.131.251)]

rejoicenmercy@aol.com
thank you 68

[Anonymous (63.27.74.81)]

Is that you Barbara?

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

I have a headache. His name is Carl.

[Anonymous (63.27.12.199)]

LOL! Take two asprins and call me in the morning!

Signed,

Another "vomitous jerk"

[Anonymous (63.27.28.244)]

Does anyone know if Barbara Stevens goes to GGWO anymore? I've heard she never attends any church functions or even church for that matter. Is this true? If so, why not?

[Anonymous (67.171.86.186)]

Because, in her own way she has "delegated authority" over Carl.
She knows him well enough after 20 years of a strange marriage, that she doesn't really have to follow everthing he says....after all he doesn't practice what he preaches himself.

BTW,If Carl dies anytime soon, she is going to be a rich widow. Who knows, she may find sudden "healing" from her headaches.
As for not going to service much,
she has learned to play the ggwo game on her on terms to some extent.

She is 23 years younger than him. Will she remarry? And will it be "outside the ministry"?

[Anonymous (80.74.211.141)]

What if she get married with a pinpollo?

[Anonymous (141.154.150.128)]

Maybe she'll marry someone from Moab.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

"Does anyone out there know how I might reach Elizabeth Dovydenas?
Quite frankly I feel as if I've been raped by this old man and his organization and need her empathy and understanding right now." LOL that is funny! We are talking about Pastor Stevens are we not? Just look at the man if you "fall" for him you must be mildly retarded!

check out this site to see just what i mean

http://www.geocities.com/toolmahass/Liquid_Waves_O.htm

[GG Member (82.44.95.128)]

I attend a greater Grace Church in London. None of which I have read seems to represent what I have seen and been taught in my church. Our pastor is lovely, we are well taught. I feel so sad reading what I have read here about Latasha Brown. She visited our church last year and was so lovely. They really blessed our church. I have not felt so sad as right now in such a long time. I have just read so much and I can't believe that people would want to spread such malicious rumours to everybody on the internet about people of God.

My brother is one of the nicest people you have met and he is at Bible College in Baltimore. He is intellegent and honest and God truly led him to study there, I could go in to it but I assume my story will be cast down.

I read somewhere here that you think people at greater grace have their blinkers on. I don't have any blinkers on. I attended a Baptist Church all my life and started attending Greater Grace 3 years ago... My point is that the teaching is virtually the same! Both my parents attended a Baptist Bible College and they are too now members of Greater Grace. They do not see a big difference.

I don't know if the people here are Christians or what state you are in but I urge you to pray to God about this. i honestly believe this is not of God. God has and is doing a wonderful work through the ministry of Greater Grace. Do you want to stand before Christ one day and have this on your shoulders, the fact that you may have caused people not to be saved by disreputing the people who may bring the Gospel to them?

In Sincere love

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.234)]

Cordell, Can you make this guy go away?

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

Why? What has she/he done but say what he thinks in manner that doesn't attempt to hurt or belittle anyone?

Now people who you merely disagree with have to go away? Why? are they not a member of this little clique?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

How do we know this is a guy?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.234)]

If you think we're a little clique, you haven't read much here. Posting the same thing on a lot of different threads may seem profound and meaningful to you, but most people think it's boring. Just my opinion of course. You are welcome to your own.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.234)]

Sorry Jim. I don't know it's a guy.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

It is boring, but not an offense to merit expulsion.

[AB (64.12.117.20)]

Lost your sense of humour?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.234)]

It does 'sound' like a woman, actually.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

Good gravy, AB, why do insist on spelling like a Brit?

Though, I must say you do get points for at least spelling correctly in some language.

[AB (64.12.117.20)]

Habit? Education? Education by women in habits? Good habit? Bad habit?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.234)]

Please be vewy vewy quiet! I'm hunting wabbits.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

This thread is hard to load, old, stupid anyway. Can we let it die? Please?