GGWO Main Board Thread 18

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Please post here.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:47 am
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Karen and Roberta 7-22-04, 9:27

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17


KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 07:13 am
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Loretta,

You are not the first Christian to imply I am not saved, and unfortunately, you will probably not be the last. The truth is that I do not recognize His voice in your words--we do not follow the same God. Whatever that means in eternity, I will have to face the consequences--because I can do nothing else. I follow the Comforter of my soul--the One who has tenderly guided me for most of my life. It is He who has taught me about respect. This is a principle I know He cares about, because He speaks to me about it all the time. And He has shown me what it looks like in the way He deals with me.

God is personal--it is this that sets our faith apart from all the others in the world. Did He just throw us a manual so He could take vacations? Does it glorify Him that His people can follow directions? Or perhaps He wants His children to KNOW Him--to recognize His voice--to discern what is in accordance with His nature and what is not.

Please, any of you who wish to set me straight--instead, just pray for me. I will not return here.


Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:38 am
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I AM DISGUSTED!!!!! All I see is nothing but slanderous hatered spuing from your mouth


Roberta (141.154.144.33)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:52 am
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Loretta's voice isn't the only one Lori, I am about ready to say my good byes as well, I am sad to say

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2743.html?1090715240


Lori (70.16.7.34)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:58 am
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I saw that one too, this has become a dump for some to spit their words of garbage on, maybe it is best if we just leave them to their haterd, I want no part of this....Love ya Roberta feel free to keep in touch through email


RJ (141.154.144.33)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:01 am
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I emailed you, sweetie!


Lori (70.16.7.34)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:06 am
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Got it, thank you, and emailed you back


JustaThought (172.209.107.218)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 12:28 pm
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just for the record I never said anything about brain washing. And since this is the same IP as Maria, I am wondering if this is her roommate and if so, why are you so filled with hate? It comes through your words. Maybe you don't realize it. I am sure you believe all you are saying and that's ok, but the manner in which you say it is quite bitter. I am sorry that you feel the need to blast us all here.

and if I offended you in anyway I too appologize.

Nancy Curra


Nancy C (172.209.107.218)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 12:30 pm
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My last post also. I agree with you Lori.

[Anonymous (24.88.39.39)]

Karen,

Please don't let anybody get to you. It's not worth it. Don't be dumb like me and lower yourself to become involved in a bitter fight with people who want to suggest things about you that are not based upon any realty.

Neil

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

thread 18 and growing , the phenomenon that can't be stopped

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
Friday, July 23, 2004 - 10:40 pm
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Were I as abusive and ego driven as you are, Jim/Cordell, I am sure I would view everyone as a victim or potential victim, also.

It's very typical for abusers to blame victims for the abuse they dole out. I'm sure it's very convenient for you to say "you have a victim mentality" every time someone tries to make you accountable for your behavior.

But let me make this perfectly clear, it is NOT your position on history or theology that is objectionable. What is objectionable is that you are incapable of respecting other people's boundaries, you think you are entitled to wound and destroy as long as you feel justified, and you are incapable of empathy. Just like Pastor Stevens.

As for me being a victim, you won't find a single person who knows me that will support that assertion. But the fact that I am aggressive doesn't mean I will tolerate abuse and lies. Were you truly a confident person, the abuse and character assignation would be unnecessary.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

blablabla. Listen to the sound of the Wild West Show and hens cackling.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

the gg'rs are southerners

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I am coming to the realization that there are people here who are absolutely and completely unhinged. They are attempting to call Carl Stevens into accountability without being accountable to anyone themselves. This is the height of hypocrisy. If they say, 'We're accountable to God,' they are just like Carl. Roberta, I am not going to be badgered by you or anyone else. I have a particular way of engaging people in argument that some find distasteful. When I think I'm right on a subject I don't waffle.

I want to renew my statement on why I came on here in the first place. I think that the people at GG are in error, they are enabling bad behavior and preaching bad doctrine. If you read my story, I have lots of fond memories of TBS. I am currently accountable as a member of a local church. These people at GG are CHRISTIAN BRETHREN, and in some cases I have more in common with them than I have with many of the dissidents on this board. I am not here for healing, I am not a victim of abuse. I am very thankful to God for my time at TBS and do not consider those years in the least bit wasted. God called me to be there. He also sovereignly called me out in His time. He has never called me out of his church. Some of you have an absolutely profane disdain for the Church, the Bride of Christ for whom He died. You refuse to be joined to her and make excuses of one sort or another. My husband, my wife, my illness...What did Christ say about putting your hand to the plow and looking back? I don't care whether you agree with my theology here or not--whether you go to an Assemblies of God Church, Baptist, Nondenom, or what--you forsake the Church of the living God at your own peril. God did not call us to be a bunch of disconnected body parts in some etherial 'body' that is not visible. The church is the City on the Hill--Zion, if you will--cities are full of people and they are visible to all. You don't like that verse about forsaking the gathering together? Poor things. Look at the penalties in the scriptures for doing so, they are not mine--I did not make them up:

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

The willful sin? In the context it is forsaking the gathering together with the brethren. The word 'church' means 'called out.' It implies 'called together.' Is this offensive to you? I am sure it is. Am I the focus of your offence because I have told you so? I am sure I am. It comes with the territory. If you are attempting to call Carl Stevens into accountability you should be accountable yourselves, and you are not. You are therefore groundless. You want to offer help and healing? It is found in Word and Sacrament (or ordinances) in the gathering of the saints of God. How can you offer what you do not have and in fact refuse to receive? You are without substance. Wounded? Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Is there a single southerner at GGWO on staff? I left about 6 years ago and I was the only then.

Neil

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

(152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 02:40 am
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Roberta, 7-22-04, 11:42 a.m.

Reading your astonishing diatribe I can see very well why you would have ~~real~~ problems at Greater Grace! Jesus warned his disciples fully well of the persecution they would suffer, but he nevertheless still taught that no one goes to the Father ~~except through Him~~ and, furthermore, to go out and preach that to the whole world.

No wonder you are trying so hard to tear down a church that preaches ~~Jesus' message~~ not some claptrap about how Christians are "as bad" as are blood-thirsty savage Muslims. You are constantly calling Jesus a liar in your many diatribes, while you sanctimoniously and self-righteously hold yourself out to be such a.....just exactly what religion do you hold by these days, Roberta?

The Lightning Rod


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 02:50 am
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Roberta! Roberta! For ~~you~~ to be preaching to us about what constitutes a "Christian walk" when you have such sympathy for blood-thirsty savage muslims would be just hysterically funny if it weren't so tragic! You should be on a stage with that act!

What other acts are you going to come up with now that someone replied to your request for "Chapter and verse" of where in the Koran they are told to kill the infidels (us Christians)? You are at a loss of words, aren't you? Give us, oh muslim sympathizer, your thoughts on that part of the Koran. I notice how you are at a loss of words when I told you there is ~~no~~ Palestinian nation and that people who call themselves "Palestinians" are mostly Jordanians and two other nationalities.

Propaganda from you Roberta is no doubt why you "couldn't get along" at GGWO. Nobody who loves that church thinks as a muslim sympathizer like you.

The Lightning Rod


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 03:04 am
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Roberta! Roberta! Have you ever traveled overseas? I am a military widow and have yet to meet anyone in the military---or their families who could travel overseas with them---who has not said you never appreciate America so much as when you've been away from her.

We have a right to be proud! What other nation freed Europe from two world wars? What other nation freed the Pacific from the domination of the blood-thirsty Japanese? What other nation has freed ~~millions~~ from oppressive dictators as our nation has done in Afghanistan and Iraq? What other nation gave the world the example of what could be done when its people are free?

No wonder you despise GGWO, with its patriotic services for July 4th and Veterans' Day!!! The more you talk, Roberta, the more you reveal where your problem with GGWO was ~~you~~ yourself. No wonder you don't want to find that perfect Christian church where its pastor could lead you in a walk with Christ. You don't want to lose out time from your propaganda speils.

The Lightning Rod


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 03:21 am
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JF, 7-22-04, 6:23 p.m.

Excellent points, JF. Yes, and who works in those franchises overseas? Would Americans move out of America to go to work as burger flippers in Red China, where the folks line up to get their "American food?" Say, isn't turnabout fair play? How about all the Chinese, Italian, Greek, etc., etc, restaurants in Baltimore? Should we tell them to pack up and go back home and stop their arrogant showing off of their wonderful cooking skills? I can remember a time when there was one (count that, one) pizza parlor in Baltimore. So what say, Roberta, about influence of countries on one another?
And try, Roberta, investigating just how much of America's economy is owned by overseas nations. Heard of Ikea? (Sweden) Heard of Aldi? (German) Volkswagens? Audis? Etc, etc.!


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 03:55 am
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Golly Roberta 6-23-04, 7:45 p.m., do you have your arms in slings after so much self-righteous patting yourself on the back?

Do you think it comes as any surprise to us that you are for the "Baystater?" What's the matter, can't you stand to say his name? Have you seen the new bumper stickers: "Flush your johns!" That's nowhere near the level of vulgarity Whoopi Goldberg and others spouted. Are you for abortion, too? Whoopi has had 6 or 7, the count being according to if you believe she self-induced herself of one (in her own words).

Tell us where aborting our most helpless and innocent fits in with your ideas of what "good" people do, Roberta? The johns are for abortion.

Edwards made multi-millions in courts "proving" if certain children had been born by Caeserean they would not have multiple sclerosis. Guess what his getting rich that way did? Frightened obstetricians into giving more Caesereans at greater risk to mother and child and greater cost all around in OR time and such. But whereas in the past C-sections constituted 5% of births and now it is 26%, there has been ~~no change~~ in the percentage of babies per thousand born with MS. But Edwards is for "the little people," right? Pass the barf bags.

As for the "Baystater," that liar called my husband and son baby killers, claimed they chopped off people's heads and other atrocities in Vietnam. My husband and son both served in Vietnam. The difference is they never bragged to millions of people about all the medals they earned during their ~~full tours~~ of duty. No real soldier does. Why do you think there's such a big group out there called "Veterans Against Kerry"? By the way, if he gets elected he's going to have to raise your taxes because the taxpayers will have to shell out to "secure" his not one, not two, not three, not four, but ~~five~~ mansions, his yacht, and the two private planes. We taxpayers are already "buying" the Clinton mansion in New York---they "rented" the housing on their grounds to the Secret Service for the exact amount as their mortgage payment. Is that clever or is that clever? Maybe an (God forbid) ExprezKerry would have us buy him a ~~sixth~~ mansion.

By the way, Roberta, did you know that the first communist cell in America was established in what I call "Messychoices"?

The Lightning Rod


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 03:58 am
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KDuhamel, just a thought: if bin Laden could vote in our presidential election, who do you think he would vote for?


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:09 am
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Karen, 7-22-04, 8:23

You have the strangest thinking I've ever come across! You're not "for" abortion but you're going to vote "for" those who favor abortion, even the savage partial-birth abortions, and then trust God "for the outcome"?!!!!!

Karen, is that what you did in 2,000?!!!! If so, thank you, God! Encore, God! Encore! :^D

The Lightning Rod


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:25 am
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Anon B, 7-22, 8:44 p.m.

Jesus "loves everybody" but, unfortunately, not everybody loves Jesus. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 A most interesting chapter, all about the winnowing out of those who will ~~not~~ gain heaven.

By the way, Anon B, what happened to that ~~other~~ thief on that other cross? Hmmmm?

The Lightning Rod


Loretta J. Willits (152.163.253.102)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 04:47 am
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Karen and Roberta 7-22-04, 9:27

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17


KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 07:13 am
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Loretta,

You are not the first Christian to imply I am not saved, and unfortunately, you will probably not be the last. The truth is that I do not recognize His voice in your words--we do not follow the same God. Whatever that means in eternity, I will have to face the consequences--because I can do nothing else. I follow the Comforter of my soul--the One who has tenderly guided me for most of my life. It is He who has taught me about respect. This is a principle I know He cares about, because He speaks to me about it all the time. And He has shown me what it looks like in the way He deals with me.

God is personal--it is this that sets our faith apart from all the others in the world. Did He just throw us a manual so He could take vacations? Does it glorify Him that His people can follow directions? Or perhaps He wants His children to KNOW Him--to recognize His voice--to discern what is in accordance with His nature and what is not.

Please, any of you who wish to set me straight--instead, just pray for me. I will not return here.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

God bless Ghost in the Machine!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"The truth is that I do not recognize His voice in your words--we do not follow the same God. Whatever that means in eternity, I will have to face the consequences--because I can do nothing else."

Oh Karen, that is so well put and what I say as well.

"God is personal--it is this that sets our faith apart from all the others in the world. Did He just throw us a manual so He could take vacations? Does it glorify Him that His people can follow directions? Or perhaps He wants His children to KNOW Him--to recognize His voice--to discern what is in accordance with His nature and what is not."

Again, I could not have expressed this in better words. Thank you.

Because of email threats from posters here, and the abuses by self appointed gods of doctrine and so on, my husband has asked me to less involved with this board. He is concerned and is right...I should not continue in this current abusive situation. It is painful to be hated for loving God and wanting to help others, but this is what has happened. I have tried to speak to those in control to no avail. Betrayed again it seems.

I won't recommend this board to anyone. I should have listened to Pastor Paul...this place truly is nothing more than another GGWO which to me is a den of vipers.

How sorry I am this has happened...but Karen is right. I should have listened to her in the beginning as well.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

WELL, PLEASE LISTEN THEN, ROBERTA, AND STOP POSTING! It shouldn't take so long to say your goodbyes. It's a short word....GOODBYE

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Roberta,

Has somebody really threatened you via email?

If they have write me at neilpatrickcarrick@hotmail.com

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"The willful sin? In the context it is forsaking the gathering together with the brethren. The word 'church' means 'called out.' It implies 'called together.' Is this offensive to you? I am sure it is. Am I the focus of your offence because I have told you so? I am sure I am. It comes with the territory. If you are attempting to call Carl Stevens into accountability you should be accountable yourselves, and you are not. You are therefore groundless. You want to offer help and healing? It is found in Word and Sacrament (or ordinances) in the gathering of the saints of God. How can you offer what you do not have and in fact refuse to receive? You are without substance. Wounded? Faithful are the wounds of a friend."

Sorry Jim...you think much too much of yourself if you think that something like this or you could offend me.

It is not what you say...it is your abusive manner in which you put people down for disagreeing or having an opposing view that is in question. I realized that when you asked me not to speak out when you were trying to shout down the post signed by Roy Masters. I thought it odd at the time, but not so much now. I remained out of the conversation for friendship's sake, but you seem now to have destroyed what friendship might have existed because I had the gaul to mention I can see why people say youe manner is abusive.

I think the way you spoke here is unnessary...you can make your point without belittle people, or can you? I am flabbergasted at your ungodly aim for the jugular should someone disagree. The poster on the other thread said so as well...you turned on JD the same way. How does this minister the Word you know so well?

I say it ministers it abusively and not in a godly fashion. I am entitled to think so without you're bashing. I am grieved that our new found friendship was not based on the Word, for if it had been you might have been as entreatable to other believers as you want GGWO to be.

I am hurt, a little sad, disappointed and will miss what I thought we had....just like I miss what I thought GGWO was, or used to be before I knew the truth.

I do wish you the best, sorry it didn't work out. But God and I are ok, though you may think differently and I am sure all will be well.

Roberta

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

When I worked at GGWO it use to drive me crazy to hear people say it was wrong for somebody to do.....

Then they turn around and do it themselves and justify it.

Why?

I am sure I have done a many things wrong, but I hope when I am wrong I won't say its because I am only accountable to God but expect others to be accountable to many others.

Makes zero sense.

Here comes the false accusations I am sure.

Neil

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

GOODBYE ROBERTA GOODBYE.............You've been promising you were saying goodbye for 2 days now........BYE

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Anon 149...*xoxoxoxoxo*

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, BUT the kisses of an enemy are deceitful

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

It is almost pompous to expect to be taken seriously when you are able to eat up half a thread making fun of a man's last name (for which you have never apologised), you attack and then when a response comes you call the responder abusive and mean, you think the scriptures are 'out of date,' you call churches that won't ordain women misogynistic--you are by far the biggest bully and self-appointed cop on this board. You asked me to step in when you were getting it from Sam Spade and I did so, then you continued to harangue him mercilessly. You have not a leg to stand on when you criticize Carl Stevens, because you claim to have a special relationship with God and a dispensation to ignore scripture just as he does. I note that your husband is now posting, he should have stepped in long ago.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Yuck Jim!

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Who made fun of someone's last name? I must have missed that one

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Wow Jim...you really as much a part of the male ego driven patriarchial system as you always have been...hmmmm why am I not surprised.

A few women had fun with Bruce's name. All in fun, he was apologised to, I actually emailed him, although it really is none of your business. My husband is angry because of the threats showing up in my email from the idiots here...he has a right to be angry. And whether or not he posts to this board is again...none of your business. He is not a man who is threatened by a woman's right to speak. By the way...Sam and I finally worked out the trouble we had, actually without you. He had decided I was the "bitch" who wrote to his son, and harranged me, accused me and belittled me all over this board before he came up with the actual balls to ask me straight out if it was me...when I proved it was not me...I got a half baked apology and another smart assed remark from him. Typical.

One of the reasons GGWO spawns so many abusers is because it is founded by an abuser. You are an abusive person...I doubt you are physically, but you are a bully, and a very very unentreatable Christian. This makes you look like all the other bullies and fools at GGWO.

My relationship with God and anyone else's relationship with God is none of your business. God is bigger than the little cramped box you have him in, thankfully. I cam to know so much more about his grace in 2000 when I went into toxic shock and nearly died from necrotizing fasciitis. Ask Bonnie, she can tell you. My transformation spiritually and physically was nothing short of a miracle, and you can't know how He saved my sanity during those frightening months of dying and being brought back to life.

You say what you want to, believe what you want to , be as mean as you want to...but God is bigger than you, bigger than your interpretations, bigger than anything you can possibly imagine. I won't ever believe in a boxed up tiny God like yours ever again. I know Him in a way others don't...they know him in way I don't. He is in my situation, He is in my pain making me strong enough to bear it, He is in the words of comfort I give to and receive from others, He is protecting me from the loss of a working immune sytem, he will be with me when they finally amputate my leg and in the days I have left he is in my hope of heaven.

So you think anything you want to....you belittle me all you like, you go ahead and judge me for being who and what I am with God...but you cannot ever take away from me who He is with me. He is personal, He is real, He is my Comforter, He is my strength,He saved from from death itself with His love and grace and you have no idea how little you know me. I may not have as much time on this planet as you do, but I will tell you this, in the time I have left I intend to reach as many who ask and tell them that God is personal...that if they can't get out of bed, if they can't get to church, if they cannot understand the exegesis...God loves them, and will be with them and help them as they deal with pain, fear lonliness, abandonment and blindness and such. If they have a preacher that visits, great...if they don't that's still okay...I can't even have friends in my house. I can't see others without wearing a filter mask, and even that is a risk...Bonnie will tell you. The pastors in my area will visit but all they do is ask for $$$$$$$$$$$$$. They are not welcome in my house. They are not welcome. Period. I am not catholic...I do not need a man to have a right relationship to God. Although the priest at St Ann's is a better man of God than anyone else I know.

You go right ahead and judge me all you like, I dare you. I don't know who you think you are, but you preach a hell fire and damnation God I don't believe exists.

Go back to GGWo where you belong. Good heavens...they'd love a guy like you. You sound so much like Carl that when he dies maybe they'll give you the job....but don't tell me that I don't know Him. I know Him and He knows me. Anything else is not your business.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Anonymous (149.174.164.83)
Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 06:01 pm
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GOODBYE ROBERTA GOODBYE.............You've been promising you were saying goodbye for 2 days now........BYE

Sounds like the song from Hello Dolly!


*LOL*

[Anonymous (67.249.228.86)]

Na Na Na Na
Na Na Na NA
Hey Hey Hey
GOODBYE!!!

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Roberta if somebody threatened you than deal with it, and don't act like a little boy who losts his rubber ducky. You have been known for false accusations and you have me wondering.

When ever you get upset at somebody you play one of about 4 games.

The you hate women games

The you are not open minded enough

you don't know my heart game.


OK you said you are leaving. But your not so you are now doing something else. Telling more lies.

Who should believe you.

Start showing some proof. If somebody threatened you put it up here with the full headers attatched.

I be the first to help you find out where it came from. I call the cops for you if its a real threat. But frankly I think this is a nuch of BS.

Neil

[Anonymous (67.249.228.86)]

You missed one game Neil -
The insult game

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I am staying Neil...just for Anon 67!

[Anonymous (67.249.228.86)]

Hubby won't like that. now go be a good christian and obey your husband!

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Hubby knows me....and he's okay with it, honey...musn't worry your pretty little head over it...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

RJ I bet your husband would like the girls here.

Where is sexy Margo? You couldn't stand your ground with something as sweet as that.

How does that sound?

OH a little number dedicated to you from me about how you must feel now.

Its one of those Gospel bands that Maria won't listen to.

I'm so tired of being here
Suppressed by all my childish fears
And if you have to leave
I wish that you would just leave
'Cause your presence still lingers here
And it won't leave me alone

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

so...now you're a pervert too Neil? So...if someone mentioned something like that about your wife, you'd be ok with that?

[Maria T (151.196.137.80)]

Keep it up, Neil. Keep baiting me in your posts. Doesn't phase me what you do or say. Too bad it shows everybody mental instability. Now you're back at women bashing again. Bonnie was right, Roberta. Look at his posts. Sick, sick, sick little puppy.

"67" now has a life bashing people on the forum too.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Yup...Bonnie is always right about these things. Filthy little beasts aren't they...ugh.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

I told Bonnie I thought he suffered from penis envy....but she's the one with Master's Degree....

[Maria T (151.196.137.80)]

To nancy Curra
What were you talking about in your earlier post when you said my roommate must be posting hate posts? She doesn't even get on factnet. Never has posted once. She actually has no interest in it at all.

You said another post came in with the same IP number as mine? Lots of people have verizon DSL, like a lot of ppl posting here have AOL with the same IP numbers too. I have no clue as to the point you are making here. I'll try to get on the other threads to see if I can figure out what you have said, I've been out of town since Thursday and haven't had computer access to keep up with the "excitement" of Factnet lately.

No need to apologize to my roommate, she said that she's not posting so she has no idea what you mean, and you didn't hurt her feelings in any way.

Maria T

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Maria...there's been a lot of freaky stuff going on with the ip numbers...

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Roberta you started it, and took the conversation that way.

What's Next.

Neil

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"She started it!" Quit whining Neil.....ugh

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

If any of you engaged in the bickering have a shred of consideration for others - take it off the serious threads. Go bash each other to bits elsewhere, but don't subject the rest of us to it.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

What if I promise to behave?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

You also promised to LEAVE. Can't keep a promise

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta,
In your post to Jim you keep saying over and over "it's none of your business"......."none of your business" if an apology is made for an offensive post, "none of your business" if your husband posts, "none of your business" about your relationship with God....etc.
The fact is that when you post on a public forum about all these things, you can't turn around and say "none of your business"...you have made it everybody's business by posting publicly about it. If you want people out of your business, don't be posting it for all to see night and day. You scream for the right to voice your opinion, then cry "none of your business" when others voice theirs

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 01:37 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is raining here in Mass today and it is setting me to doing some reflecting. I was thinking about Jesus here on earth, I mean really thinking of Him being here as a man. How very hard that must have been to daily go out into the masses and be overwhelmed with the needs of human beings and their failings while still needing to accomplish his mission of bringing the Word to all those He encountered. Yet no matter how many needs he had to address he still managed to accomplish what he set out to do. I was thinking how hard it must have been for Him to forgive all of those sinners and the sinners yet to come. How must it have been for Him to be on the cross living through these times, the same ones we are living through now. To know what would happen to His loved ones at the hands of people proclaiming to Love Him yet, using Him for their own purposes.To know the pain others would too suffer in His name.
And still He did what He did out of Love, purpose of a greater cause, devotion, purity. How I want to know that kind of Love. How I want to give that kind of love. How I want to see that kind of love among us as lovers of His Word.
I am not a complicated person, I surely have not suffered as many of you have. I don't have the history of this church that you do. But I do know this, our greater purpose is getting lost here. Love one another as I have loved you. It sounds so simple and yet it is so hard is it not? Or is it? We make things so hard for ourselves, maybe because we complicate things to the point of obliterating the simplicity of the message.
I am not trying to offend anyone in anyway, just having a reflective moment and thought I would share it.
I want peace for all of you and unity for all of us as Christians for the Love of God.
In Christ Always, Iz

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Yes, Roberta, God is bigger than me, and for that I am very thankful. He is also bigger than the one you have made him out to be--bigger than the one you have made up in your own mind, in which you are a legend.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I fail to see why you must be brutish and find ways to put down others. Your command of the book is wonderful, and I marvel at your abilities, but have no idea why you insist upon insults. I love God and serve him in whatever way he allows me, as I am sure you do. But you are not comfortable with any view other than your own.

You disapproval diminishes the miracle he wrought for me not one bit, and yet it seems necessary to be judgemental of me and others who do not fall in line with you.

It baffles me Jim. I have not mmade up a God in my own mind, I simply discovered that he is personal and he was there for me during a time of great fear and distress. I had never known he was personal till then. Karen described it well.

Why is it so necessary for you to diminish that experience and me or anyone else? I simply find it strange. These things I spoke to the nondenominational partor in the hospital about. He, too helped me see the personal side of God. Was he making up a God too?

[Anonymous (172.144.67.22)]

Iz,

Amen :o)

Unfortunately that sentiment is not found here.
May God bless you abundantly.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Tactic: Attack then whine. Typical.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

"Tactic: Attack then whine. Typical. "

Typical GGWO reply...Rude, boorish, no answer...typical and very revealing.

Why Jim?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta,
Why don't you invite him to a whine and cheese party as a gesture of reconciliation?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Why the mean spirit?

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Roberta, I awake this morning with an interesting looking board. LOL. Everything from old threads being brought back to life, to my Russian friends speaking up for me, to Pastors at GGWO leaving messages on my voice mail.

You know I really don't know why you want to keep up the good fight with me. Its not much of a real fight.

It seems you are going to town and having a field day.

I am not sure what comes of this.

I sincerly hope you have a great day. I sense you are starting feeling not so good inside. I hope I am wrong.

In Christ Jesus,

Neil Carrick

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

"Why the mean spirit?" Well, Roberta, guess I must be rude, boorish, brutish, pugnacious......if I left out any, please tell me. Maybe I could come to the whine and cheese party too? Neil too

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Pile on. I am going to work. frankly I hope you have fun with my name. Nothing new under the sun.

Neil

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.117.20)]

Gee, Lori and Roberta, how come you all didn't see the "hate" spewing out of these boards at the time the Sunpaper published that disgusting article---for which they refused to print any letters to the editor---and I came on here innocently asking questions only to have my mental capacities scorned, called rotten names, and in one case someone actually forging my name (an out-and-out illegality) to post the ultimate vulgarity? I reported that forgery to AOL authorities but don't know what they did about it.

As I have said, ~~I~~ didn't make the rule! It was Jesus who said no one comes to the Father but through me. Period. If you cannot declare Jesus as your Savior, then who is the god in your life?

We are to be like Him. Do you believe that? That means we are ~~adopted~~ into His family. The really specific thing here is: Jesus was the "only Begotten Son" of God, but we are "adopted," meaning a ceremony has to take place in that we accept what Jesus said about the way to heaven. WE HAVE TO AGREE TO IT!

If I were not to believe what Jesus said, I quite literally would be calling Jesus a liar. How about it, Roberta and Lori? Did Jesus lie about that? Are we all fools following a liar? It is thinking like you two that you both had trouble at Greater Grace, so why did you stay there once you realized what the message is there? Even before I ever entered that church, when there was a knock on my door and I was invited to Greater Grace,I ASKED WHAT THEIR BELIEFS WERE! Intelligent people do that. They are not going to waste their time going to a church when they don't believe as the pastors believe. So why weren't you curious about Greater Grace's beliefs when you first started out? And why are you obsessing about GGWO even now? If you are leaving, it's because you can't answer questions regarding Jesus being the path to heaven. Why don't you both find that perfect church out there that holds your beliefs and get the pastor to lead you in whatever wrong path you wish to follow, because you ~~are~~ on the wrong path. I don't "hate" you, I love you and want your souls to be saved. At least be honest as to why you're really leaving: SOMEONE IS CHALLENGING YOU WITH TRUTHS YOU CANNOT ANSWER AND CANNOT DEAL WITH.

If all you can see is "hate" in my postings, perhaps I should change my nickname from The Lightning Rod to The Mirror, because I have been reflecting the language and treatment that was thrust at me when I first came on these boards. Sorry if you all don't like your own words thrown back at you but you know what they say, "Be careful what you say because you may have to eat your words." To eat my words, that Jesus said no one comes to the Father but by me, would merely be to eat sweet truth indeed!

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta, SUNDAY, 7-25-04, 6:48 p.m.

Well, we know you likely aren't at evening church, right? No, there you are spouting ~~hate~~ and telling us finally what you ~~really~~ think of your fellow human beings at Greater Grace, on a Sunday no less. To paraphrase you, Roberta:

"One of the reasons these boards spawn so many abusers is because it is founded by abusers. You are an abusive person...I doubt you are physically, but you are a bully, and a very, very untreatable unbeliever. That makes you look like all the other bullies and fools posting on these boards." [Note: I am not saying ~~all~~ who post on these boards are bullies and fools. I wouldn't be so hateful as Roberta.]

So there you are, hateful Roberta. How do your words taste to you now?

The Lightning Rod

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

Never I thought I find myself agreeing with LW. But AMEN sister.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

yeah the issue has gone too far there needs to be a positive side and facts only and questions.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

We were asked to bring this civil, intelligent discussion between disagreeing parties over here. Hope there's room.


JF (66.90.181.249)
Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:35 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PG, I will be getting back with you after I have a look in my Old Model Scofield Reference Bible and quote from the notes. I am aware that dispensationalists are apparently closing the gaps on some issues--but I remember being taught out of Clarence Larkin's silly book (I hope you are not one of his fans) at NESB with all those crazy charts--Dispensational Truth it was called--we WERE taught that the way of salvation was different in each dispensation and that each dispensation ends in failure--including the church age. I will have to get back with you on that.


We see two covenants as you well know, one of works requiring perfect, personal, and perpetual obedience given to Adam and codified on Sinai. (Romans 2, Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5)--The other covenant is the covenant of grace revealed prospectively in the Old Testament and retrospectively in the New. The New is in the Old concealed and the Old is in the New revealed, to quote Augustine.

Thanks again for your thoughts. Have you seen Vern Poythress's book "Understanding Dispensationalists?" P&R publishers?


PG (69.67.254.38)
Monday, July 26, 2004 - 09:43 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I haven't seen that book.

I also think that there are more than two covenants.

The first one you mentioned however was given to Israel after they were already delivered from Egypt. It was to solidify them as a Nation and to ensure the lineage of their own messiah. It was not a covenant involving eternal life. That was the Cov't of Promise given to Abraham, which was not disannulled by the Law. (again Gal 3:17)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Loretta, I hope you will realize that not all of us dissidents hate GG. I do not, never have, am not a victim, am thankful to God who CALLED me there. He also called me out. I view Carl Stevens and the other pastors as CHRISTIAN BRETHREN. I see them in error. I understand that you love your church. Believe it or not so do I. Otherwise, why bloody bother? I am not a spiritual cop, I am not here to shout 'abuse, abuse!' I am here in the spirit of Matt. 18 and 1 Tim. 5. There are Christian brothers who are pastors INSIDE GG who feel the same way I do. They have character. They are the hope of the future of GG.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I do not hate GG either, Loretta. I still have friends that went there, still know people who do, and enjoyed to good times I had here in Lenox at TBS... I do think that the elders, some of them if not all of them are abusing the flock, that the wrong doers must be routed out for the sake of the people. I still have friends who attend GGWO, that is why I am angry with the abuses of power, the lies and the deceptions that have hurt so many people who have seen the wrongs.

If I didn't love the people, especially my friends who still attend, I would not have joined the other voices here who have seen many worse abuses than I have seen, and I have seen my share.

My prayer this morning on the prayer thread was that perhaps in a spirit of unity those that dissent might find common ground long enough to effect the changes necessary so that the temple of God can be refurbished with healthy doctrine, that the pastor might be given the medical attention he needs and that the rebuilding after the purging would come about.

[PG (69.67.254.41)]

Gosh JF - you've had your hands full on this thread!
I appreciate your tone and spirit and know this is what becomes a blessing in the end.

[Just Thinking (68.92.85.31)]

Roberta, et al
You stated that, "My prayer this morning on the prayer thread was that perhaps in a spirit of unity those that dissent might find common ground long enough to effect the changes necessary so that the temple of God can be refurbished with healthy doctrine, that the pastor might be given the medical attention he needs and that the rebuilding after the purging would come about."
I think that apart from the obvious abuses and bickering on this board this board has served a purpose. I sure would be interested in hearing your views about refurbishing the church with healthy doctrine, since some of your comments have been so radically different than orthodox Christianity. Also, I am aware of your health problems (for which I am truly sorry)yet, you have forsaken the church, i.e. the temple of God because of the hypocrisy you have witnessed. I respect that. However, the church is full of hypocrites (Romans 3:23)so, come and join us...even if it means we have to visit you. I wish you were in my area, my wife and I would visit you. Hey, we would not ask for your money, just your friendship. There has to be a church like that around you. Please keep looking.
I stated before and I will state it again that I personally have learned:
1. To call for repentence without being involved in or actively seeking a local church or adhering to the basic doctrines of the FAITH, i.e. [The Inerrancy of Scriptures, The Virgin Birth, The Deity of Christ, The Death, Burial, Resurrection, Ascension, and The Return of our LORD], (Which GGWO does) is utter hypocrisy.
2. I know that #1 will cause a knee jerk reaction; however, that is my humble but accurate opinion. Aaahh, free speech. I spent ten years in the Army defending that God given right. God bless America and may all our enemies be defeated.
3. To be slow to speak and quick to hear.
4. I also cannot discern people's motives in why they post that is up to the All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing God of the Universe. However, I can dismiss and ignore the ugly posts.
5. The worst kind of anger is christian anger unrestrained.
6. To pray for this sitaution with patience without wavering.
7. To respect people's opinion's and views even when I do not agree. Attacking is never necessary.
8. It is not always easy for some to move forward.
9.There are two-sides to every story. It would be nice to read the other side.
10. I don't always have to be right.
I am on vacation this week. I hope that God blesses you and the church that you faithfully attend.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Dave...do not call me a hypocrite. I am living my life before God in the best way I can. Where I go, whether I go, if I assemble or not is between God and I. I am accountable to God, and He and I are doing ok. If that bothers others, I urge you all to pray for me, rather than accuse me. Now there's a unique aproach, but there's no power or money in it for THE CHURCH.

My heart, my conscience and my free will is mine, and God loves me, communes with me with and without the scripture, he blesses me with life everyday, and meets me in my pain, my fears etc.

Do not judge me, accuse me or charge me with living an unaccountable life. Please keep you opinions to yourself. If my lifeactually really mattered to you you would pray for me rather than call me names on a public forum. Be right, be more right than me, be more holy, be more right on with God if you like to think you are...but be not an accuser by calling me a hypocrite.

How easy it is for you to all throw stones. My free will and my decisions are between God and myself. If you really cared about me, you'd have emailed me privately with your concerns...but you and others in your self righteousness choose to chastise me publically. How caring, how Godly how kind. This is the Pharisee who boosts his own holiness as he pubically chastises others. A GGWO tactic all the way.

It does not matter to me what you think of me. Nothing anyone could ever say to self righteous people makes any difference...and if this is your attitude about people with incurable illnesses that cannot and don't want to place their spiritual needs into the care of right wing Christians, I shall pray for you. For personally I would rather be visited by a less militaristic church than any in your camp. Been there, done that...they never returned when I didn't send money. Who's the hypocrite there?

Perhaps if I invite the woman pastor of the local Congregationalist church for a visit that would make you all feel better?

No, I didn't think so.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"I sure would be interested in hearing your views about refurbishing the church with healthy doctrine, since some of your comments have been so radically different than orthodox Christianity"

If GGWO chooses to remain an orthodox Christian protestant church I have no problem at all with that...but the false cultic doctrines and practices of Carl Stevens and cronies that include pastoral authority, no elected elders to serve as oversight for the pastor etc...these are unhealthy doctrines and practices along with the mismanagement of funds, lies, sexual misconduct, cover-ups etc.

Contrary to the popular opinons here on FactNet, although I may have some differences with extreme/radical/right wing...whatever one calls it... Christanity, I think that all people should be free to worship unhindered in whatever way they personally choose. What Carl has done is erect a personality cult unto himself and his misuse of the illegitimate authority he convinced us he possessed have hurt many many people from the relationship with God they were seeking.

I hope this answers your question, Dave, as I cannot type more just now. *s* Will write more later if necessary...

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta,
I found your post to Dave to be very snide and nasty. He just spoke the truth to you about the importance of being part of a church (which is totally biblical). He even said if you were in his area he and his wife would visit you. In return, you told him to keep his opinions to himself, called him self-righteous, and said you would rather be visited by those less "militaristic" than him. I don't even know why people try to reach out to you....you are a hateful, bitter woman.
I know....I don't know your heart, and I am judging you. There, saved you the trouble of saying that for the umpteenth time.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

how can somebody complain about a church when they themself don't even go ?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Not only complain about it, but still be so obsessed with it that she watches every service on the internet, looking for things to criticize.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

i feel bad myself ,maybe i looked too hard for things to be wrong. Its just i wanted to know

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Roberta has the right to respond to comments addressed to her. She is strong in her beliefs, as you are in yours. She was directly chastised publicly by someone who identified himself as a pastor (authority figure) for not belonging to or attending a church. Right or wrong, biblical or not, sinful or Godly, it is no greater or lesser than the actions or inactions of ALL of us on a daily basis. To single her out in a public forum was wrong. Everyone has access to her email address. If Dave Drago felt compelled to speak to her personal behavior or practice, he could have done it privately.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

*sigh*

"how can somebody complain about a church when they themself don't even go ?"

Well, 64 and 69. I spent many many years in GGWO and other churches of various types, theologies, practices etc. I think it is funny when anyone says I am "obsessed" with GGWO. Until FactNet came along I am not sure I was aware of much about the goings on in Baltimore, except the problems I heard from friends that attend there. Also...this too you may find humerous as you have such a negative view of me...I think the first time I ever "tuned in" to GGWO on the Net was after I found factnet, and I saw part of the convention. They did used to show services here on the local community station, but I after seeing one or two after we left 15 years back, I haven't bothered.

I am glad I have seen it though on the net. I had no idea how ill Pastor Stevens had become. Oh, I had heard rummers from frirnds, but hadn't seen for myself. it pains me to see him so ill and it angers me that he still seems to be in need of medical care. I once loved him as my pastor and can't help but feel bad for him.

Dave is a gooed guy, I remember him from SASB, but to refer to another as a hypoctie because they cannot go to church or choose no church in your area is wrong. He has a good heart Dave does, this I know. But I do not agree with him, and saying he will come visit is nice, but I do not agree with his views and am not so much of a hypocrit as to invite, or allow a visit from a church man that I cannot fellowship with...especially if that man sees me as "outside the camp". That's not what I want, any more than either of you would allow a visit from a woman pastor of a local Congrgationalist church...unless you planned to convert her. I also don't allow Mormaons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Assembly of God, etc etc to come to my door or to my bedside. That is my right, and it is your right as well. Dave's kind words were followed with the condeming voice that says "if I don't go to church I am a hypocrit".

" I don't even know why people try to reach out to you....you are a hateful, bitter woman.
I know....I don't know your heart, and I am judging you. There, saved you the trouble of saying that for the umpteenth time."

Reaching out? Telling me I am a hypocrit because I won't allow you all to convert me to believing the way you do is reaching out? That's almost funny. People who know me know I am not hateful or bitter, but I do prize my freedom to worship as I choose, live as I choose and believe with all my heart that everyone...Christians of all denominations as well as others should be allowed the worship of choice without hinderance from manipulative cultic deceptive leadership. Even you who malign me...I believe you have a right to worship God where you choose to.

Yes, you have judged me, and your own beliefs say you should be careful about that. But...it is your choice, and in America it is your right, my right and everyone's right to think what they will.

Blessings to you both, whether you accept them or not.

II Co.12:9

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

please excuse my bad typing ...the old hands keep slipping off the keys...

thanks 152

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta,
Why do you include Assembly of God in with the groups you won't allow to visit you (Mormons and JWs, which are cults)?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Because I don't care for right wing theology that is militaristic in nature. My sister in law belongs to an AOG church and has been asked more than once to turn off the condemnation routine with me. I do not want to fellowship with agressive "in your face" works oriented churches.

Nic...can we simply agree to disagree here? I have no problem with your beliefs and your right to have them and worship as you choose. Please be a gentleman and allow me the same freedom?

Maybe this experience would be easier and less complicated that way. I came here to help the kids and hopefully see the things that hinder God's people from worshipping God without a man's undue influence be stopped.

Let's be united on that level and leave me to my own choices no matter what you may think of them.

This is so tiring.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Roberta: You sound so tired and like you are really hurting today, are you ok?
I know it is hard to keep having to go over the same old stuff, but you just hang in there and I continue to pray. Iz

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Hey, I just asked a question. I was just curious about why you mentioned them in the same sentence with those cults. Assembly of God churches can vary greatly, like in any denomination. Sounds like you had a negative experience with them, but there are many that are not "in your face" works oriented. And they are pretty biblical in most of their beliefs. I just didn't know if you considered them a cult because they definitely are not that.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

No...I don't consider AOG a cult at all, and have friends to attend a great AOG in Jacksonville....I loved it when I was there. The pastor was a great guy who didn't pull any punches, but was very tender and sweet, especially with the elderly. I really liked them, but they were considered a rogue church, though I can no longer remember the reason why. It was awhile ago.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"Roberta has the right to respond to comments addressed to her. She is strong in her beliefs, as you are in yours. She was directly chastised publicly by someone who identified himself as a pastor (authority figure) for not belonging to or attending a church. Right or wrong, biblical or not, sinful or Godly, it is no greater or lesser than the actions or inactions of ALL of us on a daily basis. To single her out in a public forum was wrong. Everyone has access to her email address. If Dave Drago felt compelled to speak to her personal behavior or practice, he could have done it privately."

Nonsense. If she makes her views known on this site and attacks others as well, she makes herself fair game--as do we all.

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

I wanted to say that also, but didn't want to start another "fight". Sorry, Roberta, but it's true....you have publicly spoken to others just as Dave spoke to you and told them where you thought they were wrong

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Thanks Izziesoul....yeah it was a physically hard day, but I have had many more that were worse...*s* Bonnie says thanks so much for your prayers...all went well and she hopes to be back tomorrow. Kari is doing great. It was quite the miracle...I am sure Bonnie will tell you about it.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Fair game....interestingly put.

**************

So, Nic...you won't just agree to disagree?

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Agree to disagree about what?

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

"Nic...can we simply agree to disagree here? I have no problem with your beliefs and your right to have them and worship as you choose. Please be a gentleman and allow me the same freedom? "

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Sure, but I will still post my agreeable disagreements.
I cannot however, agree to be a gentleman, because I am a lady http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather...there is actually a thread about AOG on the Cult section here at factNet

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/305.html?1090523341

Surprised me, I must say. It never seemed like any kind of cult to me...

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Sorry bout that gender thing, Nic...*s*

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta,
I am sure you are intelligent enough to realize that anyone can post any group on the Cult section of FactNet. That does not make it a cult. What they actually believe and practice makes a group a cult, and the Assemblies of God is not one. They are a Christian church denomination

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Rest assured Nic. You didn't need to point that out. I was merely surprised that anyone would actually think it.

Jim with his bold typeface, and you on the edge of sounding condescending... I remember Carl Stevens told us in a morning class my first year at SSB that though others would think us arrogant, we had every right to put them down because we were right and would be high and lifted up with Jesus. It was alright to be rude to others who were disobedient. They played the tape for weeks before bus ministry left to knock on doors.

I thought then he must be right. I am glad I know now he isn't.

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Focus on the Family with Dr.Dobson is on the list too. Anyone with a grudge against a church can call it a cult

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Nic, AOG are even sending a few of their guys to RTS in Jackson MS. That's Reformed Theological Seminary--I am very encouraged by a lot of what I see happening with them.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I note with interest that Scott Fernalld posted against someone emailing threats against his wife. This is a good thing, and right for a husband to protect his wife, expressing such great love for her. Imagine the indignation of the Lord Jesus Christ toward the attacks made against His bride, the Church for whom He died by anyone calling themselves by His name yet refusing to be joined to Her, and railing against her with so many accusations.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Jim...you're becoming obvious.

This obsession you have with my spirituality would be sweet if you weren't so accusatory. Settle down. Let me worry about my own situation, will you? "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone". Put down the stones, let it go. Your energies could be used in a much more useful way, don't you think?

Relax...everything's going to be alright. Let go and leave me to God.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You're carrying a few stones of your own that need to be put down. Are you declaring now that you are staying after such a long good-bye? Everything that Dave Drago said was valid.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

And Martin L.is back. Much like the vultures that circle a dead carcass to pick the bones, he is here with another gospel. One which he feels the church for 2000 years has missed out on and he has a special 'anointing' to bring to you. Wolves often go after the lambs who lag behind, straying from the fold.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Perhaps, Roberta, you with your theological training and expertise (which you declared to us all but which is none of our business) would like to engage Martin L., or maybe you think his teaching is compatible with scripture or that it doesn't matter at all what he teaches as long as we all "love Jesus?" (Which Jesus though?)

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Jim, you sound bitter and I have no idea why you are so determined to be cruel to others, but you do appear to enjoy it. Anyone who doesn't line up behind your beliefs is ridiculed and belittled. What kind of Christianity is that? You sound so much like Carl. You choose to put anyone "in their place" if they aren't following your "reformed doctrine". Many here on this board have theologiccal training, but would it matter at all if they didn't exactly line up with you? I rather doubt it.

Tis a real shame that you don't really understand that the law killeth, because you have a lot of "expertise" but there isn't any love or life in it. Especially if all you can do is be sarcastic about "loving Jesus".

Someone on this board called Bonnie an idol worshipper, maybe it was Sam. I am beginning to wonder if you are a bible worshipper...you love the letter of the law, but it is the spirit that giveth life , Jim...remember? (which spirit, though? Certainly not the one you exhibit toward some here.)

As for my "good bye"...how funny you all are that hate me so. Just because you have all made such a big deal about it, I simply have to stay. I decided that I care more about my friends at GGWO and their children to let a few little men run me out of here. They are more important than the stones. So sorry to **** you off yet again, but I am not allowing your holy disapproval of me stop my hope that GGWO will get it's act together and do the right thing.

The only thing that hurts, is that I called you friend, only to discover you don't know how to be one. Bonnie was wrong...you're not one of the good guys at all. So you have managed to hurt me after all, that should at least make you feel good and take away the sting that I am staying.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

I'm glad you're staying, Roberta. I know you get a little fired up now and again, but I prefer to believe that you are passionate about the issues. You are a fresh breath of common sense, EMPATHY, and humor on this board and a great counter to the legalism from both within GGWO and without.

Hang in there and pay no attention to the trash nibblers.

A Shogun Named Marcus

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Thanks, Shogun...btw, love the name!

[Anonymous (66.248.140.51)]

RJ is it true you have nothing to back up your allegations with my church, with things concerning Pastor Carrick, with JF, and child abuse issues.

That basically you say things here and nver back them up here?

Is it true that you are not ordained at all? That you hold no affilation to any church? no denominational body, not local assembly?

That basically you are here for your ego's sake, and to manipulate weaker individuals into following you.

I noticed that the Leonards do not want to be associated with the claims you make, that appear to be grand lies, they don't want to be part of the sick attacks on people, and they don't appear to like your manner of behaving where you often change the subject to another incident because you can't sustantiate your false claims.

RJ if what you say is true, and it is for public consumption, why don't you back things up.

Nobody here believes that Neil or Jim are attacking you, or crazy suggestions like Neil is stalking you. This is some of the most childish behavior on this board. Tell us how Neil stalks you, how he has threatened you.

Your rants to Jim are double speak, hype, spin, and lies and deciet are very obvious to the folks here.

Roberta if you continue to lie I would imagine God will deal with your family strongly. With your husband making false claims he is unwilling to proove, because like others have suggested they are lies.

Those who would contact you over their hurts would be stepping into a hornets nests of lies.

Imagine being a rape victim and dealing with a person who has said some of the things she has about those who disagree with them.

I get the impression RJ has trouble with all men, and with all authority figures.

Elder J.C.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

To Elder JC
I noticed that you have made mention of me and my husband in your rebuke to Roberta. A correction is needed. We did not disassociate with Roberta because her claims are not true. We believe the stories we have heard are true. We also believe that the entire topic is so volatile that extreme caution is to be made when dealing with it. We believe that this forum would be the wrong place for victims of sexual abuse to make a confession or seek counselling. We believe the only time such a person should post is if they desire to tell their own story in their own words. We believe that of late, this forum is not a safe place for anyone to seek counsel.

We recognize Roberta's strong conviction that a safe place is needed for victims to go for help and that is why we endorsed the many organizations that have been listed to seek such help. Would that all of us at vulnerable times in our lives would have an advocate as unweary as Roberta has been for those suffering this most devastating experience.

We have backed off from talking too much about abuse because we are not here to upset people but to draw them to Jesus and healing. We realized ourselves and through faithful friends that this topic was becoming too difficult for people to have to deal with so often. The information is out there for anyone needing it. We are still here. We still pray. We still fast. We still believe.

Roberta's battle with others on this forum is not ours. It doesn't mean we agree or disagree.....it's just not ours. We are here and have been here because we love the people of GGWO in or out. We would love to see redemption come to this ministry. We do not hold the plan for this ministry or its people. We walk in faith everyday believing that God will lead us and keep us in Him. We have never been here before. Our experience has been with a church that has experienced sexual sin in its leadership and watched as people were brought through the process of being restored. It was God's work and it was wonderful. It built our faith. Our hope has been to see this happen in GGWO. We hope we are not disappointed.

I hope this makes our stand clear to you and I apologize if anything I've posted has led you to believe otherwise. If you have other concerns about anything I've posted feel free to address them to me. I'll do my best to answer.
Thanks

[Anonymous (66.248.140.51)]

Lee,

Let me see I follow you. Please let me know if I am wrong.

Your conviction is that things may indeed have happened but this is not the proper place to discuss them?

In regards to the claims that she has made with very little information, do accept the claims with no proof, or no evidence, and do you believe that bringing up such items is proper here, when the supposed evidence is never brought against these people.

Basically people are guilty by association, Neil is a stalker and that Carl Stevens is in th business of protecting pedophiles. He has not worked with the local goverments, that the local goverments are in a mode of lies themselves about this, and that we should all accept on the merits of this information coming from Roberta it is true?

I am very troubled by this. It follows no biblical accountability, no legal responsibilty, no consideration of how this affects others.

Lee if somebody said these things about your family and did not make in practical steps to show how it was true, would you just accept it. There are hundreds of missionaries, affilated ministries and many ordained Pastors from GGWO.

At best these claims, seem believable but the person who offers them up seems to be doing an incredible diservice by bringing it to this place.

Elder J. C.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

To Elder JC

Most of what you mention concerns Roberta and not me. I think to best resolve the issue and get answers, you need to bring them to her , not me.

I have heard stories from people that I will not mention. I happen to believe them. I haven't brought them here. I won't.

Allegations have been made by others about my family and knowing my family, I believe them. However, without the people involved coming forward to bring it to the proper place I can do nothing more but offer my understanding and prayers that it be resolved. Also, my family knows where I stand and I have begged them to make things right. I also don't defend their actions. Their behavior is theirs, not mine, I am not responsible. I am not guilty just because I am a daughter or sister.

Please bring these things to Roberta, it sounds like you are troubled and need to talk to her.

Also, you may like knowing this about me.....I don't like it when someone thinks and speaks for me. I wish you hadn't done that. Especially when I don't know whom I'm speaking to!

[Anonymous (216.99.185.50)]

Hey Anon 66.30.49.45 (from Thread 17)

Whatever happened to the document the elders were supposedly "drafting" to keep CHS from preaching, because of the Wed. evening disaster service? I guess the document has gone the way of the "mediator" they were working with, huh?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Delay tactics. Diversion.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Elder JC. You have my ear. If you are really an elder at GG, and you are attempting to act in a biblical manner--I am for you, not against you. If in any way you feel I have acted in an unbiblical manner towards anyone at GG, I am ready here online, at GG in person, or at any place you suggest to meet with you face to face to make things right. In fact, I want now to publicly disassociate and repent of any seeming common ground I have had with any who themselves are not accountable to a local assembly of God's people. Light has no fellowship with darkness, and it is high time that the dissidents here who claim to adhere to the scriptures started acting like it.

somebonus@yahoo.com

[The Darkness (141.154.144.33)]

"I want now to publicly disassociate and repent of any seeming common ground I have had with any who themselves are not accountable to a local assembly of God's people. Light has no fellowship with darkness, and it is high time that the dissidents here who claim to adhere to the scriptures started acting like it."

abstract, cut off, disaffiliate, disassemble, disassociate, disengage, disentangle, disjoin, dismount, dissociate, disunite, divide, divorce, free, isolate, loose, loosen, part, remove, segregate, separate, sever, sunder, take apart, tear off, uncouple, unfasten, unfix, unhitch, withdraw

apologize, atone, be ashamed, be contrite, be sorry, bewail, deplore, feel remorse, have qualms, lament, reform, regret, relent, reproach oneself, rue, show penitence, sorrow

The Light

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Light? No, seeming angel of it.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

You missed the sarcasm, my dear...

"The Light" = JF

"The Darkness" = RJ

I do believe you just called me an angel of light, *LOL* You really are too stressed out, old man...take a break, relax.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I did. And I am so relaxed right now you I need a new shirt size. I may be old, but at least I still have my sense.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

I am sure YOU think so...most self righteous types do I guess.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

well, if Mr. Elder JC is finished, I have to go back to work.....wow what a break I had today!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I am back to grindstone too Lee...

[Anonymous (66.248.140.51)]

Lee,

I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

I was simply asking the question, that regardless of rather or not some of these allegations are true, your family doesn't believe that this place is the proper place to be making broad allegations against people.

RJ,


Please note as I have suggested before you can and I would highly suggest that if you believe that something is not right you should seek out the elders of the GGWO Ministry. In this case Pastor Marr is handling this.

He would be more than willing to discuss any matter you feel is unhealthy or abusive.

Yes I am associated with GGWO as an affilated ministry.

I would gladly be willing to suggest that many of those in affilated ministry will welcome thday we can put all of this behind us.

In Christ,

Elder John C

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

Is this the same J C (aka angry Johnny)? John Cirlingione? Jesus Christ? or Jimminy Cricket?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Don't hold your breath elder whoever you are...

[LJW (152.163.253.102)]

JF, I have been as careful as I could be to indicate I do not consider all posters on these boards to be the malcontents posting abusive and hateful messages against GGWO and its members.

I think it is hypocritical, however, of those who claim to have been abused somehow at GGWO who then in turn abuse and say hateful things to me when I come on here saying I cannot "see" what they are claiming.

For instance, I have been studying Pastor's booklets (14 so far) and keeping a notebook as I read. I have yet to come across anything with which I do not agree. This is not always the case when I read spiritual things written by others. But I still have a stack of the booklets to go through yet so I will keep searching. Meanwhile, some on these boards claim Pastor of erroneous doctrine.

You see, I am not "brain-washed," I am not under the influence of a Svengali-like man, I am a trained reasoner (degree and post-graduate work in philosophy), so I tend to want specifics and facts. Having been the victim of false rumors and allegations myself I have come to loath what many posters on these boards have been doing.

I will say as I have said before: Poor God! All he has to work with are sheep, jackasses, goats, chickens......the list is long and varied!!!

[LJW (152.163.253.102)]

Oh, Roberta! You wouldn't invite people to your house if you don't agree with the doctrine they agree with? Are you anti-Jewish too?! And you wonder why some of us, finally having gotten an inkling of ~~your~~ doctrine that is soooooo out of cync with that of GGWO, totally reject any advice from you?!

Just because you are content to stay home having your pity parties in your own personal church, don't get angry and hateful toward us when we say we love our church and the many friends we've made there. Even have a woman pastor over, if that's your bag. Just don't take me to task because I don't agree women should be pastors. Been there, seen that, know what problems it can create!

[LJW (152.163.253.102)]

So, Roberta, yet another of your hates: "militaristic" churches?!!!! For your information, Roberta, I am a military widow. My late husband was a career Army Sgt. who went through some harrowing experiences for the sake of us all. I get fed up with you self-righteous harridans who pose as "peaceniks" and leave all the dirty work for others.

I will tell you the same thing I tell Jehovah's Witnesses who come to my door: you won't have anything to do with the military yet you indulge yourself of all the rights and freedoms others have won for you with their life's blood. From this nation's beginning when men laid everything on the line to win freedom for us, Christians have given their lives for our benefit. Jesus said no love is greater than that, that a man lay down his life for his friend.

By the way, been tuning in the Dems convention? They are ~~really~~ stressing how Kerry was "militaristic." But that's all right. We know you're going to vote for him anyway.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Thanks for the uplifting ~~Christian~~ message this morning Loretta...really blessed me.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

yeah cause this is the only church roberta gets

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

It is unnecessary to criticize people - anyone - on this board personally, whether it be Roberta OR Loretta, even if they personally attack you. Turn the other cheek. Rise above it. Call it whatever you like. Just practice what you preach.

[Izzysoul (209.6.151.215)]

I am going to apologize in advance for what I am about to say because I know some people are going to be offended. But please know that I am not saying this in any other spirit but one of caring.
I truly do not understand how in the world anyone can think that GG apologizing to the people they have hurt ( and that is only assuming this JC person is legit) is going to make all of this better. Maybe some people have been so over whelmed by what has happened to them that they have forgotten that according to the stories here, every commandment has been broken, every one. Especially the first two greatest commandments. I am not saying it isn't necessary to apologize, of course it is. But that is a baby step in a long line of things that need to change. Waiting to take Carl's place are men who have covered up, perhaps done worst things, are power hungry etc. do you really think they are gung ho to see their "earthly empire" just dissappear? With all the things that have happened in this ministry it needs a total over haul. A new beginning. How are you going to tell the body; Ok, we did teach you scripture and verse but we may have done it wrong, so this is what it really should be. PLEASE. If this were a movie, we would all be throwing popcorn at the screen yelling WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE (not the body). And I am not just talking about since the drugs, I mean from the beginning of this ministry. Maybe it wasn't as bad as it is now, but through the years Horrible things have happened to people in these churches. I know that Paul Stevens sinned, but at least he tried to affect some change and now even he is leaving.
Is there not some responsibility here to Christians outside of GG? Are we not one in Christ? Not just little pockets of people working separately trying to make it to heaven.
And when I say responsibility to others, I don't mean that GG has to apologize to the whole Christian community but it would be nice to know that at least one church that went astray had the integrity for GOD to stand up and say yes we were wrong but look what we are doing now.
I know that there are many points of view on doctrine here and the doctrine is one of the debates about GG. But there is more than twisted doctrine (which is way bad enough) to be concerened with. There is a bad seed that goes deep into this ministry and if it is not plucked it will continue to grow with or without Carl Stevens and with or without an apology.
Again, please know that I am not trying to sound unloving and uncaring, it is just the opposite.
Well, I have said my piece, thanks for listening. Iz

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

You go girl. A-MEN!

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

roberta is from the first church of the offended

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

im sorry about that im just in a playful mood i guess no offense intended

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

No, she is from First Church of the Offensive

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

hmm good point 149

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

AND she is the Pastor!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

FIRST CHURCH OF THE OFFENSIVE

Pastor: Roberta F.

Assistant Pastor: Martin L.

Music Directors: Neil and Maria

Church Counselor: Bonnie
(usually booked up with Neil and Maria)

Sunday School Teacher: Loretta (140 IQ)

Guest Speaker: Dave
"What Is the Real Name of God"

All religions and creeds welcome
Priority seating for Muslims

[Just Thinking (68.92.85.31)]

Roberta, et al
I stated in an earlier post, which generated great discussion
“1. To call for repentance without being involved in or actively seeking a local church or adhering to the basic doctrines of the FAITH, i.e. [The Inerrancy of Scriptures, The Virgin Birth, The Deity of Christ, The Death, Burial, Resurrection, Ascension, and The Return of our LORD], (Which GGWO does) is utter hypocrisy.
2. I know that #1 will cause a knee jerk reaction; however, that is my humble but accurate opinion. Aaahh, free speech. I spent ten years in the Army defending that God given right. God bless America and may all our enemies be defeated.”
Wow, what a back-lash that caused. The FACNET police want me to keep my opinions to myself! You don’t know me to well. Maybe, I should role over now and play dead!! Yeah, OK. LOL…Roberta, I did not call you a hypocrite. Reread #1. It was a generalization. Now, I do call you a hypocrite and here is why:
1. This is a public forum. I knew my comment would bring a knee jerk reaction! I cannot believe that I was asked to keep my opinions to myself! This site is full of opinions, including yours and others. Yet, you tell me to keep my opinions to myself. That is comical. Don’t make sweeping public statements and not expect some disagreement. Perhaps, we should all stop posting and just read your threads Roberta! Would that suffice?
2. Roberta, I have no problem with your freedom to forsake the visible manifestation of the body of Christ for personal reasons. People do what they want. However, when you make your decisions public knowledge on this forum and then tell someone who disagrees with you to keep their opinions to their self, while you opine freely, I see that as a greater hypocrisy than forsaking the church.
3. By the way, I do not have your email. Why have FACTNET if we are all to email each other?
4. What ever happened to the art of debate?
5. Thank you for attempting to answer my questions about doctrines you would address.
So here goes: I freely exercise my birthright as an American patriot who spent ten years serving his country to make my point
ROBERTA, YOU ARE BEHAVING AS A HYPOCRITE. YOU DO NOT TOLERARTE ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU. FOR ALL YOUR LEARNING YOU ARE LIKE A BIG BULLY ON THE PLAYGROUND OF FREE SPEECH WHO ACCUSES THOSE WHO DISSENT WITH YOU AS BEING UNFAIR OR SELF-RIGHTEOUS. YOU HAVE CRITICIZED AND LABELED THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU. WHY? I WILL NOT ON THIS SITE KEEP MY OPINIONS TO MYSELF. AND, EVEN THOUGH I CONSIDER YOU A HYPOCRITE, I WELCOME AND EMBRACE YOUR RIGHT TO POST AND CONTINUE YOUR KNEE JERK REACTIONS. WITH THAT SAID ISN’T GREAT TO KNOW THAT OUR SPOUSES LOVE US!!!
SO, WE AGREE TO DISAGREE.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

AMEN, Dave!

[Anonymous (69.44.60.74)]

Pastor Dave Drago,

I find your words wise in such a dark place.

GMM

[Anonymous (69.44.60.74)]

May I add Brother Dave that our Sister Roberta calles people sexist titles when she cannnot convey her message that lacks knowledge.

GMM

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

,

[Anonymous (68.83.101.114)]

From the unpaid debts thread

Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:14 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing that really gets me...

When it comes to not paying debts on time, how about certain, (NOT ALL), well known, very visable GGWO members who are business owners and can't even "afford" to pay their employees on time. Many of them also GGWO members. These employees are hard working and deserve to be payed on time, yet many times, I personally was witness to and a party to, (having done work for said business), having to wait til tomorrow or next week to get paid because there was not enough money in the bank.

Yet these same business owners drive around in brand new German Engineered Luxury Automobiles, (his and hers mind you), and can afford over $3,500.00 a month in payments on those, (I've seen the payment made),....can afford trips...or pay thousands of $$ for a privaliged parking spot at GGWO...

Where is the Doctorine that tells us to NOT pay a fair days wages when promised?????

These people should be SELLING their Luxury Automobiles and PAYING THEIR STAFF!!!
That would Glorify God more than ANYTHING I can think of!!
They are NEVER late on car payments....only employee payments...hhhmmmm....wonder what's more important...?????


In short...drive an old Chevy if you have to...don't take advantage of your employees, many of whom have no where else to go, just to "look good" in front of others!!

That's ok....they will get their reward in God's Time!!!

Just had to vent...

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

Send invoice about delay.

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

I am new to GGWO and there are a lot of questions I have. I do love the members I have met in the church, but I think there is something not quite right with the leadership of the church. I was there Wednesday evening and I had a sick feeling in my stomach after leaving. There are a few reasons why, when one of the members stood up and called the person who was attacking pastor Stevens an idiot and the pastor praised him. As a christian I was taught when I was being attacked or ridiculed to pray for that person and God would deal with it. I do not understand why the pastor handled that situation this way. The second thing was when I was leaving the pastor pulled out in a Lexus ,that is an expensive car there is nothing wrong with having a nice car. Jesus lead by example Jesus rode on a donkey or went by foot he didn't have an expensive black stallion. The message being sent is the wrong one, don't ask for more money as you drive away in a Lexus. I am new so I am not going to pretend that I know much about the church,I am really just asking for insight before I get too involved in the church. I read about what happened in Lenox,MA with the heiress Dovydenas that really disturbed me. I am currently praying for Christ to give me guidance so I appreciate any FACTUAL input.
In Christ,
Another ANON

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

See the thread "NEW READERS - Helpful Information".

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

THANK YOU!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.182.131)]

Man, I can't even leave here a week without you all being at each other's throats. If the truth is not spoken in love, it's just so much wasted breath. I don't have enough time to weed through all the refuse here. I'll try to check some more in the morning. Try to bring your words before God before you post them here. At least try to act like you love each other. Find some edifying things to post, please. love, Bob

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

Yeah Bob. Amen, Amen, Amen. Thank you. Iz

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

just pray

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

pray today

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

I'm praying

[pop (62.121.45.91)]

Dear Another ANON,
What else happend in that meeting?

[merikson (68.33.96.167)]

Dear pop,
What meeting are you speaking of?
I was talking about a service so I am not quite sure about any meeting.
Another ANON

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Another moderated message board can be found at:

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Who is the moderator?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Not Neil.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.251)]

The moderator at graceways.org is Jack Brown.

[Anonymous (68.33.152.228)]

Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:55 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blessed be the (what)man to whom YHWH does not imputeth any inquity ... whatman's eyes full of mercy is a wweepingg in the mirror of God's Word (no never forgeteth) reciprocating to others the same standard of unconditional chesed-charis that Christ has given to him, his own bad self (please listen o self righteoas o a murderin' o a slanderin' o a deceiven' o a thieven' o a lustin' o a cussin' o a usin' o a boastin' a toastin' o o Oh, my God forgive them! for they know not what they do) Behold!! Jesus, the only one friend of sinners!!! He shows us all the most excellent way, the biggest love that shurely surpassesd all understandin' ... "Only the heaven mind can be to the utmost earthly good" Whatman See, Doctorate in True Reality (whattheproblemismehasasinrememberingdisability , loveitdeletesamultitudeofsinswithnorecyclebin-livinginnewliferejoicinginChrist)

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Neil, I see that Rick Castalano posted it for Pastor H...

Do you know him? Are he and Pauline still married? I went to scholl with them at SSB.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Jack Brown is NOT the moderator. Neil appointed without asking.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.251)]

You can read all about Graceways discussion forum at graceways.org forum.

If you have any questions it would be appropriate to ask the moderating team at gracways.org

The friendlier graceways.org discussion has some suggestions on board etiquette at the site.

You can voice your opinion there and the site has a zillion more features that does Factnet.

I think you will find people who did not want to post here in the last weeks have gone there. That includes some of the people who first came here.

Here is a link to the suggested board ideas.


http://www.graceways.org/discuss/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=18&s=256782153b8da85cce9e06 8c411ec689

[Loretta J. Willits (205.188.117.20)]

Anon. 68, 7-30-04, 5:33 p.m.

Welcome! I have been at GGWO almost 4 years.

Whatever automobile Pastor is in may very well have been donated to him or he bought it with his own money. PASTOR DRAWS NO SALARY FROM GGWO. He earns money as a consultant.

Pastor Cooper draws no pay from GGWO. He has a construction business, installing floors, in order not to draw a pay. He feels this is the thing for him to do.

Likely many of the other pastors do the same and also tithe.

Be very careful as to what you absorb on these boards. Many do not hesitate to lie. When they are refuted they never apologize. One claimed Pastor Cooper was "shacking up" the last two years and that GGWO was overlooking this. Totally false. They are married.

Others tried to claim that Pastor Paul had been "banished," when there he was, appearing regular at GGWO.

It is somehow claimed that anyone who leaves---if of the "inner circle"---had to have been forced out somehow, as if none of them ever might have been out of line to the point of being fired. Others are simply at another church helping it get started up under the "umbrella" of GGWO.

Then there are those posters who haven't been to GGWO literally for years but claim they are "interested" in it because they still have friends there. Instead of spending time on these boards they ought to find that perfect church they think exists out there and have its pastor lead them in a spiritual walk.

I am up in years and necessarily have been in a large number of churches as well as observing others in whatever area I was in, and I can say absolutely there is no perfect church. No matter how lovely a place, sooner or later someone will be heard to be unhappy with the pastor, or other members, or the deacons or whatever. As I have said, poor God, all He has to work with are sheep, jackasses, goats, chickens......not a perfect one among us.

[Anonymous (80.74.209.236)]

to Another ANON
sorry, Weds. service.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.181)]

Dear new person to GGWO,
If you felt sick after Wed. service, please do not ignore that feeling. Doesn't that tell you something?
I recently left after nearly 20 years. Loretta has been around not even for 4. She is blind and deaf to the reality of the situation, and does not see things for what they really are (no need to attack me, Loretta, please)
Listen to the still small voice who is speaking to your heart. The Holy Spirit will speak the truth to you. There are many healthy churches in the Baltimore area and He will lead you to one where you can grow in your walk. GGWO is an abusive church, and there are many hurting and wounded sheep throughout the world who can attest to that fact, people whose lives have been torn apart by the abusive practices and false teachings of Carl Stevens.
I pray you will get out now.

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Dear Loretta and Anonymous 4.156.99.181 posted at 7:40 a.m.
I want to thank you both for your insight and I have turned to prayer about my path with Christ. I will be attending my usual church today as a reminder of what a pastor should be like. My pastor at this church is a very humble one and gifted in teaching the word of God. I believe in sincerity and I just do not feel it at Grace,something is not right. I have only been the a few weeks but I believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts and I know the tugging I feel in my heart is from Him. Loretta, I see you are defending your pastor and your church but the bottom line is if your budget is short you do not accept costly donations for yourself. One can have a decent car at 1/4 the cost and the rest could go to building your church,as I stated earlier Christ did not ride through cities in a Chariot pulled by a black stallion. I will pray for the people who I have come to know at Grace, and I do hope that all the terrible things I have read will end up not being true. For now I will continue to praise God in my own church and in my own way. Remember Loretta even though many of these postings could be untrue or exaggerated there is a greater chance that some are true and I do not wish to be a part of an abusive situation. May God richly bless you both and once again I appreciate your thoughts and time.
In Christ,
Another ANON
Philippians 2:3,4
"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others"

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Dear Loretta: I am filled with great compassion for you and for all of those attending GGWO. But I do think you are not facing reality. Even IF
some of the things on this board are not true, much is. And it isn't just the posters on this board who have said so. There is legitimate documentation from many outside sources who have no agenda but to serve God who have raised flags concerning GGWO.
I pray that the problems at this church can be reconciled to the Word of God. That should be the main concern of everyone on this board. God FIRST all else is a far second in these matters.
For the body it is devestating and painful to have spent one day of your life in scripture or
teachings that do not glorify GOD'S CHURCH. But I believe the Holy Spirit is working mightily here through some caring people to bring accountability and resouloution, and the Holy Spirit will lead wherever God wills that to be.
You honestly seem like a loving caring woman who is loyal and kind, but there have been many before you who were of the same heart who have had their lives crushed by a spirit unbecoming of a Christian Church.
For your sake and that of others like you I and many others, (including churches in other places)
are praying for God's Will here and the truth (whatever that may be and to whoever that may point) be revealed and rectified.
But I think that whatever the case, GG needs to take care of its current problems and body members before they start ministering to new people. This is not mean spirited, it is common sense. I know they cannot close their doors to newcomers but there should be a system in place that can effectively deal with the current problems without pulling new people into it. This is for GG's own good as well. Any newcomer walking into this situation could very well be not only turned off to this church but any church, especially new Christians. And noone can tell me that would be God's will. Secondly, GG would later (if it is God's will they remain in
church status) be able to effectively lead newcomers in their walk in GOD'S truth. But until that time, we are here to serve God in our lives, not make GG look good. I am sorry to be so blunt
and I am in no way attacking you. As I have stated, If it is God's will that this all be resolved and GG is called to serve Him then it is our duty as Christians to rejoice in that. If it is not, then our duty is to pray for the fallen and the faithful and go on. In Peace in God's Will Iz p.s. excuse my horrible grammer and any spelling errors.

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

.

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

ANY SIMILARITIES FROM THIS ARTICLE TO GGWO?

REPORT ON "THE BIBLE SPEAKS", LENOX,
MASSACHUSETTS
Prepared by Gospel Truth Ministries, Inc., Box 518, Sandwich, MA 02563 March 28, 1981
__________________________________________________ __________________________



We are living in a day, when, more and more we are witnessing the growth of a particular kind of threat to the Christian church, one which is rising up from within the very ranks of the body of Christ. We find scriptural warnings against being misled in this manner in the epistle of Jude, as well as in Romans 16:17 & 18, where Paul exhorts: "Now I be­seech you brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." A similar reference is found at Acts 20:29&30: "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also, of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

How aptly these warnings relate to the tragic events at the Penple's Temple in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones had professed to be a born-again believer, and yet his authority and control were allowed to go unchecked, to the extent that in time he became more important to his followers than Jesus Christ. Many who died in that jungle were professed Christians. Other groups which have misled many genuinely born-again Christians, ­though not to that extreme, would include Victor Paul Wiewille's The Way International, the Local Church of Witness Lee, and others. It was out of concern for the unity of the body of Christ that a number of ministries, dedicated to the defense of the Christian faith against doctrinal error from outside as well as within, have felt the need to express a warning, in love, relative to certain divisive tendencies which have been exhibited by the Bible Speaks Ministry, of Lenox, Massachusetts.

It is, understandably, a difficult task to have to scrutinize a ministry which is generally recognized as a Christian body, with much good fruit in evidence. Some research ministries have termed the Bible Speaks an "aberrations Christian group", a research category applied to groups not too far removed from the evangelical/fundamentalist realm in the area of basic doctrine, and many of whose leaders were, at one time, members in good standing within conventional evangelical denominations. Many sincere evangelical Christians are members of some of these organizations without realizing (or admitting) the cultic characteristics which the groups have developed. These members are understandably concerned and hurt when critical attention is directed toward them or their leaders. However, the application of the term "aberrational" is based upon both theological and socio-psychological criteria. Nonetheless, it is with much prayer, and with a motivation of love and caring for those in and considering associa­tion with The Bible Speaks Ministry, that this report is prepared and presented.


Carl H. Stevens, Pastor and Founder of The Bible Speaks, was born in West Sumner, Maine, on November k, 1929. After graduation from school he became a salesman for the Cushman bakeries. In 1961 Stevens became Pastor of a Bible church in Milton, Maine, co-pastoring churches in West Sumner and Norway. He was named area co-ordinator for Youth for Christ, as well as serving a term as President of the Oxford County Camp of the Gideons. In September 1962 he was named Pastor of the badly failing Montsweag Baptist Church. Many who knew Stevens in these early days of his ministry have expressed the opinion that he was a dynamic minister, who preached the gospel as it had seldom been heard in New England.



According to Bible Speaks literature, Stevens was ordained by a council of independent ministers at the Montsweag Baptist Church on March 7, 1963, although he had reportedly been active in Christian work since receiving Christ in 1952.

Within six months of Stevens' assuming the pastorate at Montsweag, the church began to realize significant growth, apparently due to a visita­tion program instituted by Stevens, with the intent of inviting people to church and winning the unsaved to Christ. After a time, the church members voted to drop their affiliation with the organized Baptist Church and become independent. By 1967 the congregation had grown to a point where a new church building was needed. The new church was named The Woolwich-Wiscasset Baptist Church, and was dedicated in 1968.

By 1971, under Stevens' leadership, the Northeast School of the Bible be­gan on a part-time basis. In 1972 the school opened on a full-time schedule with 100 students registering. By 1975 the attendance was 325.

In 1973 both the Church and the School relocated in South Berwick, Maine. There is an element of controversy surrounding the move to South Berwick. The Bible Speaks Book of Miracles states simply that through several attacks made against the ministry, it was made clear that God desired the body to move to another area. Other reports, however, indicate that serious differences arose within the body, causing a division with one faction remaining faithful to Stevens and following him to South Berwick, and the other faction remaining at Wiscasset. There are indications that even households were affected by this division, with one mate leaving the other to follow Stevens.

With the move to South Berwick came the beginning of what The Bible Speaks calls the corporate community, with families and individuals living on the church premises.

By 1973 The Bible Speaks "Telephone Time" Program was being broadcast over Portland and Boston radio stations. Since that time The Bible Speaks has been active in sending out missionary teams to numerous foreign lands with significant results in the number of souls won to Christ. While in South Berwick The Bible Speaks had an active bus ministry, with the state Sunday school attendance record being broken in April of 1976, with 2,042 children coming to hear of Christ. By late summer of 1976 The Bible Speaks World headquarters were established in Lenox, Mass. on a 96 acre tract of land with some 25 buildings. The Stevens School of the Bible and Stevens Christian Schools opened in September 1976. The ministry also purchased two additional tracts of 12 and 35 acres. They presently lease the en­tire campus of the Holliston Junior College, renaming it The Bible Speaks West.

According to information provided to Gospel Truth Ministries by the Bible Speaks public relations department, pastor Stevens has no formal theological training, but official literature indicates he has received an honorary Doctorate of Divinity and Doctorate of Letters and Law from Clarksville School of Theology in Clarksville, Tennessee.

The Bible Speaks, according to its publications, has active members in 17 states and 20 countries, with over 220 Bible studies and services weekly in the United States and more than 280 worldwide. The Bible School has 28 extension schools and a total enrollment of over 1,000. According to their statistics, the outreach program has had impressive results as well, with 1,500 professions of faith in 1974, an estimated 6,000 in 1975, and 12,000, 30,000 and 72,551 in 1977, 78, and 79 respectively.
It was in the early 1960's while Stevens was pastoring two small churches in Maine, according to the Bible Speaks Book of Miracles that "...God called him one day to the back of the woods near a lake. There the Lord Jesus baptized him with what Pastor describes as liquid waves of love.



Along with this experience God promised him several things. First and foremost, God promised an anointing upon every message he would preach from then on. Secondly, God gave the Scripture Isaiah 43:19 and showed Pastor He would build a church that the gates of hell could not prevail against. The Lord gave more definition by saying it would not be pro­duced overnight, but that He would build a 'one new man' of Ephesians 2:15 step by step." Isaiah 43:19 reads (NIV) "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland."



It is interesting to note that the application of this verse to Stevens' ministry as well as the state­ment just cited, that the Lord "would build" a church that the gates of hell could not prevail against, and that such "would not be produced overnight" suggest that the building of the church by the Lord was to begin then, rather than already being an accomplished fact. Christianity historically has held to the position that the church was established by Jesus Christ nearly 2,000 years ago, and that the gates of hell have never been able to prevail against His church, nor will they. Expressions such as this have contributed to the fostering of an attitude which we have found to be quite common among members, past and present, of the Bible Speaks: that theirs is a higher calling; that the Bible speaks represents the fullness of Christianity as it can be experienced nowhere else.

Bible Speaks literature and recorded lectures contain numerous state­ments which would further contribute to an attitude of superiority among the adherents to the movement. Some examples would be "A, person can be saved, go to Heaven and yet on earth live apart from God's man. He may experience a certain portion of Kingdom life but he will never be full." (Tape #1410, and The Bible Speaks from the Throne, July 1976, pg. 14), and "We are hid in Christ and in the Corporate Body which is his full­ness." (Meditations from the Throne, Pg. 4).

This feeling that The Bible Speaks represents the fullness of Christ, and is of a higher calling than other Christian bodies has even been a factor in the breakup of some Christian marriages and households. This is not meaning to convey the thought that the Bible Speaks or Carl Stevens has necessarily condoned or encouraged such breakups, but simply that the view of that particular ministry, as held by many of its members, has been a contributing factor in the breakup of the marriages of at least some Christian couples.

It is taught that outside of the Corporate government of God's army, such as that claimed by the Bible Speaks, one is under the devil's head­ship. In Meditations from the Throne, pg. 3 we read: "We will not allow natural relationships to tie us in the Devil's bondage. Instead we step ahead, leaving eternity to explain the steps of God. We hearken to a higher calling."



Now, the casual reader may very well take this in appli­cation to the general walk as a Christian as being of a higher calling, than that of natural relationships, which may have been the intended mean­ing. However, as mentioned, we are aware of Christian couples who have separated when one mate chose to follow the higher calling of the Bible Speaks ministry with a stronger allegiance than he or she had for the other mate or for any other Christian body. On other instances Stevens has referred to the Bible Speaks as "the best thing going in New England." (Tape #1871, Living From a View of the Mountain.) There is a definite tendency among the Bible Speaks members we have spoken with to look down on other churches because their Pastors may not have the "anointing" attributed to Stevens, because other bodies may not be as actively en­gaged in soul-winning as The Bible Speaks, and because being outside of

"God's Corporate Government" these churches have no covering to protect them from the devil's attacks.

Adherents to the Bible Speaks are taught that Carl Stevens is God's man, God's delegated authority. One Bible Speaks publication said of this: "True delegated authority is an authority derived from love, which causes one to serve. Therefore, properly executed authority never demands 'obedience' nor exalts itself." Nonetheless, the claim to being God's man and His delegated authority has placed Stevens in a position of un­questioned authority in the minds of many Bible speaks adherents. Many quotations from Bible Speaks tapes and literature give the plain implica­tion that it would be wrong to question God's delegated authority. To do so would, in effect, be questioning God. To begin with, as you will re­call, Pastor Stevens alleges that God promised him an anointing upon every message he would ever preach, thus making his messages virtually God's words.



The introduction to Meditations from the Throne states "As you sit and read this book and discover its revelations, you soon will realize that it is not written by a man alone, but through a revela­tion straight from the throne of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." Thus, it appears that the Bible Speaks believes in continuing revelation as expressed through the person of Pastor Stevens. Of these revelations and of delegated authority we read in Meditations from the Throne on pages 10-11: "The seats of delegated authority have been filled with appointed servants chosen by God Himself.



If we forfeit the covering provided for guidance in life, it is as if we took off the Tabernacle roof causing the steps of our life to be without God's glory. Without our mind covered by the headship of Christ through God's leadership on earth, our natural mind and emotions operate in reaction to the atmosphere instead of revelation from God. We may have an eternal covering in Heaven but no experiential provision of revelation on earth."



Elsewhere it says: "Submit to the glory which has taken over the authority to which we are submitting. Submit to the glorified authority imparted to the man of God to be revealed on earth. Hear the Government." It concludes: "God's thoughts are uncovered to us when we are covered by his authority. The voice of God's man verbalizes the thoughts ministered by the Spirit. We first receive the word of revelation which gives us the word of recon­ciliation as we cry: '0 earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord' (Jeremiah 22:29) ."

Bible Speaks adherents have been taught to accept what Stevens says as God's words and to act upon such without question or hesitation. For example: "Revelation must not be left to discussion, but believed upon in immediate action. One place giver, to questioning truth revealed through God's man stops the flow of life for us in that personal truth." (The Bible Speaks from the Throne, December 1975, pg. 3). And "Every new word from God demands an immediate response of faith from man." (The Bible Speaks from the Throne, February 1976, pg. 11).

Tape#1410, "What it Means to be Baptized Unto a Man", contains statements such as the following: "If you don't hear the words of the servant of God, you are despising God." In another place we hear: "And all of a sudden you realize that it isn't him but it's Christ. He is no more than a servant or a messenger, but he is that. And because he is that from Christ you must receive his word and honor his message and obey his purpose."


On tape #1445,"Self Power vs. Christ is All in All", Stevens says the following: "When you come to a service and you hear a challenge, and
you personally get challenged, don't make a reservation to intellectually challenge me later through feelings; but humble yourself to what is being said as facts, and let God bring you up to what I am saying."

One of the most extreme teachings relative to questioning Stevens is found on tape #1350, Presumption vs. Speaking to the Rock, "If you have a close friend that evaluates anybody in delegated authority I'll guarantee you that if it's done with any consistency you'll be weak and sick and die within the future months (I Cor. 11:26-31)."


Total submission to delegated authority is stressed by such statements as "Imparted righteousness is received through the measure of your obe­dience to the Word in the submission to the government while in the state of continuing victories." (The Bible Speaks from the Throne, November 1975, pg. 19). Submission to the government does not mean earthly gov­ernment, but rather, God's government of delegated authority.

Similar emphasis, again pointing up the superior position of The Bible Speaks over other ministries is found in this quotation from The Bible Speaks from the Throne, July 1976, pg. 11: "There is a lot of good in Christianity today but the ultimate product is not bringing people into what they should be in the Kingdom because they are not in the order and line of delegated authority." And, on page 16: "Under submission to the choice of God's delegated authority there are pleasures forevermore. At His right hand we are seated in a delegated position by God, governmen­tally arranged with divine wisdom that we might experience the fullest potential possible to experience the abundant life now."

There is a distinct tendency among Bible Speaks adherents to elevate Dr. Stevens to a point bordering on adoration. This may be fostered by teachings on Stevens' part such as that in Tape #1675, 'Following a Man or God, wherein Stevens emphatically stresses that he is God's man, and following his teachings is likened to adherence to the Apostles' doctrine as referred to in Acts 2:42. While Stevens says the term "apostle" is to be applied to himself only in the sense that he is a master builder or organizer, many of his followers look at him as having the same stature as the first century apostles such as Paul.



I taught a Bible study some time ago where a young man who had recently begun attending the Stevens School of the Bible told me what a privilege it was for him to be sitting under the teachings of an Apostle. Further examples of how his followers view him can be seen in the Bible Speaks Book of Miracles. In the dedi­cation to that book, Stevens is referred to as the Good Shepherd, capital G, capital S. On the next page, in the section "ABOUT THE PASTOR" one reads: "What was it like to walk with Jesus, to see His smile, to be looked upon with that piercing glance, and to hear His precious voice speak those sanctified words? What was it like to laugh with Him, to cry with Him, to eat with Him and to be His friend? Most Christians have wondered this at one time or another. Those in the Bible Speaks stopped wondering years ago. To be a sheep under the shepherdship of Carl Stevens is to know intimately the person of the Lord...To know Pastor Stevens is to know Christ. To love the Pastor is to love the one who gave him to us. As one sheep I speak for thousands who have been led by our beloved shep­herd out of Egypt and out of the wilderness into the Promised Land." The November 1979 Crossroads magazine said of The Book of Miracles, which was published in 1975, "Unfortunately when people share from the depths of their hearts the love and devotion they have for the Lord, they sometimes over express themselves."



The article goes on to state that Dr. Stevens has never been one to exalt himself, that the introduction to The Book of Miracles is inconsistent with his personal views, and was written without his knowledge or consent. We are told that as soon as Dr. Stevens saw the book it was taken out of print. We have been unable to determine ex­actly when the book was withdrawn from circulation, but it was apparently available for 22 to 3 years, allegedly without Dr. Stevens being aware of its contents.


One of the more unusual doctrines of The Bible Speaks Ministry is one which was taught by Stevens in Tape #1410,"What it Means to be Baptized Unto a Man:' This message was excerpted, with some changes in The Bible Speaks from the Throne, July 1976, pp. 11-17. All of the following quotations are from one of these two sources. Stevens admitted that this was a teaching which he had never heard preached before. The essence of the message was this: "Do not try to live after salvation without being baptized into a Body, into the Word, and unto God's man."

With reference to the body one is to be baptized into, he said: "And that must be in a body not with a clique outside of the body, and out­side of true anointed, delegated leadership that is truly of God. There can be good people, but you just better remember that Jesus Christ doesn't anoint everyone for those positions." Stevens says that he is not saying you must be baptized unto him necessarily. But, he states that there were not many Moses', Joshuas, Elijahs, Peters or Pauls. "There were many Christians but there were not many leaders of that caliber, be­cause Jesus only has one of them ... usually, in a generation." All of this is in relation to God's man, a label which Dr. Stevens freely applies to himself.



Stevens has also said "People say, I am not going to follow a man, I am following Jesus. That cannot be done. If you follow Jesus, you follow God's man who leads you in the authority of the Kingdom of how to live in him." Stevens concluded the message "Be bap­tized unto a man of God, and be true to him for Jesus' sake, and honor him for Jesus' sake with double honor, in I Tim. 5:17, submit to him at Hebrews 13:17 for Jesus' sake, never criticizing him for Jesus' sake, being willing to die with him in I Cor. 3:9 for Jesus' sake; Why? Because that's the only way that you can experience the authority of delegated grace ... is to be in the authority of delegated life."


In one issue of Crossroads magazine it was written: "Dr. Stevens sees himself as a pastor and no more. Those were his exact words in a recent message. He is a sinner, saved by grace. A vessel who God has called, and he has responded, just as hundreds of pastors in the world did. He is deeply grieved when people exalt him, and his attitude is this - 'Be­lieve God, not me. If what I say should ever, for any reason, be off, then believe the Bible'." The particular choice of wording "He has re­sponded just as hundreds of pastors in the world did" could still leave
the reader with the impression that Stevens is of a very select group of pastors, merely hundreds, past and present.



Furthermore, while he says "Believe the Bible, not me" he often endeavors to prove to his audience that his message is biblical by using isolated proof texts, sometimes in a very far-fetched application. One such example would be in his sermon "What It Means to Be Baptized Unto a Man" wherein his theme text was I Corinthians 10:1&2 "Moreover brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through-the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" On this verse, Stevens reasons that since the Israel­ites were "baptized unto Moses", and Christ was his head, then this is a pattern for New Testament believers to follow as well: to be baptized unto a specific man of God today, and follow him as the Israelites follow­ed Moses.



Unfortunately, we are not aware of one Bible scholar or commen­tator who sees this verse as Stevens' does, as being a pattern for New Testament believers, except insofar as the Israelites baptism unto Moses prefigures our baptism unto Christ. We have read numerous commentaries on this verse, and not one indicates that this is to set a pattern for believers today to follow a man of God as Moses was followed. Furthermore, the context of this verse brings out that even though the Israelites were "baptized unto Moses" God was displeased with many of them, and the passage concludes in verses 11 & 12 with the fact that Paul had expounded on this situation with the Israelites as an admonition, that "He that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

There are other verses which The Bible Speaks has used in support of the "following a man" teaching, such as Phil. 3:17: "Brethren be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example." Another is I Corinthians 4:16: "Wherefore I beeseech you, be ye followers of me." And finally, I Cor. 11:1: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." A careful study of these verses and particularly of the Greek words rendered as "followers" reveals that Paul was simply exhorting his readers to imitate his example as a Christian and a missionary. He was in no way suggesting that individuals be followers of him in the sense of following him exclusively as a leader. Such would have been directly contrary to his expression at I Cor. 1:12 & 13: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" Here we find Paul warning against just such tendencies as are evident in The Bible Speaks.



Furthermore, at I John 2:27 we read: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." So, while this verse is not ruling out the need of teachers in the Body of Christ, it is ad­monishing against looking to any particular man as teacher, since the Holy Spirit is the believers' teacher and guide in spiritual matters. Christ is the one mediator between God and man, without the need of an­other man in a position of mediatorship. When every part of the body of Christ is in its set place, each is able to receive from Christ directly, so that the body increases and edifies itself in love. In John 15 Jesus is the true vine, the whole vine. Every branch or believer is related to him directly, and receives its flow of His life directly, not through some other branch.

Of course we have pastor-teachers in the Church today as part of the variety of ministries to the body. To reject these ministries would be to deliberately reject the loving and wise provision of the Head of the Church who gives these gifts. On the other hand, though, to suggest that a Christian must submit to a human shepherd for leading and guidance is going to the opposite extreme and denies the Bible's teaching about the believers' direct access to God. Hebrews 4:14-16.

In mid-1980 The Bible Speaks released a 43 page booklet entitled The Bible Speaks Goes on Record. The introduction to this work states the inten­tion of clarifying certain aspects of the beliefs and practices of The Bible Speaks out of the desire to establish a mutually beneficial working relationship with the entire body of Christ. The introduction concludes with this statement: "It is in the spirit of goodwill and reconciliation that we offer this paper." The report goes on to present an essentially orthodox Statement of Faith, The Bible Speaks' basic doctrinal beliefs, followed by an explanation of the Hermeneutic Rules (the method of inter­pretation of Scripture) followed by The Bible Speaks. Then follow elab­orations upon several of the areas of Bible Speaks' teachings which have contributed to concern among other Christians and former members of The Bible Speaks: The Question of Spiritual Authority, The Question of Apostles, of Order, Honor and Commitment, The Question of Growth, of Marriage and Divorce, and finally, a glossary of terms peculiar to The Bible Speaks, and not commonly used outside of that movement.



Most of what is stated in these areas is quite orthodox, and were it not for knowledge of what was clearly taught in the tapes and periodicals cited previously, the casual reader would likely arrive at the conclusion that the problems had arisen out of a misunderstanding of what had been taught and that all that was needed was a clarification of terms.



In several areas, however, what is expressed in The Bible Speaks Goes on Record is a distinct departure from what had previously been taught. However, most of the major problems have been ones of attitude among Bible Speaks adherents: Their attitude toward The Bible Speaks Ministry as opposed to other Christian ministries, their view of The Bible Speaks' and Carl Stevens' authority, their attitude toward the person of Carl Stevens as God's man. It is perhaps easier to change one's position in writing than it is to change one's inner attitude. While positive changes are being observed in certain areas, such as a willingness on the part of The Bible Speaks to work shoulder to shoulder with outside ministries now, there are other important areas where change is not yet as overtly manifest.



One example would be in the view of Carl Stevens as an Apostle. We discussed earlier some of the implications the use of this term has carried in the minds of Bible Speaks adherents, as fostered by Stevens' statements about himself. While The Bible Speaks no longer recommends the use of the term Apostle when speaking of Carl Stevens or other Bible Speaks pastors, our research in contact with Bible Speaks adherents reveals that while the term Apostle may not be as frequently used, the attitude of his followers remains essentially unchanged. Whether this is simply a carry-over from before the teachings were changed, or whether it is still encouraged by Bible Speaks teachings is a question we cannot answer at this time, but we would urge those who come in contact with the Bible Speaks ministry to be on guard against viewing Carl Stevens any differently from any other Christian pastor with a gift in the area of leadership.

Another area where change has been expressed is with regard to StevensÂ’ anointed teachings. Statements previously cited clearly conveyed the impression that all of Stevens messages would have the Holy Spirit's anointing, that he conveyed revelations from Jesus Christ, and that these revelations should not be questioned. However, in The Bible Speaks Goes on Record we are now told: "In speaking of the anointing, the words are merely men's words, but the Hold Spirit is especially present to help our human infirmity in conveying the best sense or mean­ing."



We are further told: "It is impossible for God to be present in that which is untrue or unbiblical, it is impossible that false and un­scriptural teaching be anointed teaching at the same time." A well-balanced explanation is then given, which, in light of certain of Stevens teachings which we have heard would enable most Christians to readily dismiss the thought that all of his messages are anointed. While much of what is taught is clearly scriptural and perhaps could properly be termed anointed teaching, there remains the need for discernment by listeners. The Bible Speaks Goes on Record goes on to clarify the mean­ing of the word "revelation" as they now use it. To most Christians "revelation" is a revealing, by God, of something previously unknown, as is the case with the writings of many of the early apostles. "Illumination" on the other hand, refers to the making clear or illuminating of an already revealed scriptural truth. We are now informed that when The Bible Speaks uses the term revelation what is really meant is illumina­tion; that "when we speak of receiving revelation we would do better to use the words illumination or enlightenment for what is truly meant." Although the term illumination doesn't really seem to fit in the context of the passages previously cited, we would do well to keep The Bible Speaks' definition of "revelation" in mind for the future.

The Bible Speaks also uses some special terminology which would be for­eign to many Christians outside of that body: Terms such as one's ver­tical, one's horizontal, going through the cross, being hid in the body, keeping a single eye, and others. Related to such peculiar terminology are some additional areas of possibly questionable doctrine, but which have a lesser significance than the divisive attitudes already discussed. With regard to the attitudes of his followers toward Stevens, and their view of that particular ministry, there may well be members of the Bible Speaks who do not hold to these same attitudes which we have found to be fairly common.



Nonetheless, in spite of the tremendous amounts of good accomplished through the ministry, the number of people who have been hurt, even if indirectly by the ministry, including the dissolution of some Christian marriages, has been sufficient to move us to present this report on some of what we and other research ministries see as potential problem areas within The Bible Speaks. This report is not intended to condemn The Bible Speaks, nor to be judgmental in any way, but rather to be cautionary,...to express warning to those in and entering the Bible Speaks, that they might be alerted to those areas which many respected Christians see as aberrational toward Biblical Christianity.



Perhaps as Christians we should realize that such teachings and tendencies as we find in The Bible Speaks in the areas of authority and submission have indeed grown out of real need. In the midst of a permissive society people do need authority. But it is our task to point them to the basic authority of God's Word. Then we can point them to Paul's admonition that they learn to know those who labor among us, and esteem them in love for their work's sake (I They. 5:12). In our impersonal society, people do need the kind of close fellowship demonstrated in The Bible Speaks. Ways of meeting this need can vary with the circumstances. But the kind of division seen in the Corinthian church, bayed on building a following for a human leader, must be avoided.


In today's complex society people do need teaching and training. But more is needed than one person or a local church can provide. The Bible calls for a plurality of ministry and gifts within the local church (II Cor. 12).


Above all, we must recognize that the sin of causing division in the church is a most serious offense, as suggested by Romans 16:17 & 18. In light of the many divisive tendencies within the Bible Speaks movement we would urge caution on the part of those involved with the group, and those contemplating membership. This is not to even suggest that the adherents to the Bible Speaks' teachings are not Christians. But in the urgency of the times in which we live, the unity of the larger body is highly important if we are to accomplish the mission of the church. It is our earnest prayer that the body of Christ will not have to apply the admonition of Romans 16: 17 & 18, cited in the first paragraph of this report, to The Bible Speaks ministry, but rather that teachings and attitudes within that body will be adjusted in such a way as to permit the entire body of Christ to function as one harmonious whole.



Finally, Jesus Christ must be kept central. He alone is the great Shepherd of the Sheep. The only covenant we need is the one sealed with His blood. The only covering we need comes through the blood atonement, something Jesus did once and for all - something that is available only through Him.

************************************************** ******************
We welcome a point-by-point response from the leaders of Greater Grace World Outreach...

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Must you post this long article on several threads? Once is enough, and people can view it on the other website anyway. It is much too long

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Is it too long or too truthful http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Some people do not go to other threads. Sorry to those who do not like to read, about the length of the article.
Blessings
P.S. I am still in search of shorter articles,I guess there is a lot to be said about TBS and GGWO

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

If you would like to see an even longer article go to this thread
Elizabeth Dovydenas v. The Bible Speaks http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (24.88.32.251)]

http://www.graceways.org/discuss

[Anonymous (216.99.185.50)]

I would like to join those who have recently spoken about the latest few disturbing services. It makes me very uncomfortable to hear sermons from the pulpit referring to "fags," calling people vomitous idiots, and having body members echo this kind of talk by calling out names like "Idiot" from the audience. To me, this is not Christian behavior, coming from "God's men" or not. Also, I have to admit that the number of standing O's and commotion shown whenever P. Stevens shows up is beginning to make me uneasy. I understand there were recently quite a few folks who have walked out during services. I am not into the criticizing and namecalling spirit of Factnet, but would very much like to hear from others who feel the same. It seems that the whole "dementia" episode happened back in November of last year, correct? Why can't it just be put to rest?

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

The standing ovations are an affirmation to Pastor Stevens that everything he is doing is OK. This has turned into the FIASCO of last Wednesday night, where a woman shouted that the person who mentioned Pastor Steven's dementia was an idiot. Cheers from the peanut gallery could be heard. This atmosphere of Pastor worship will only get worse, unless Pastor himself tells them to stop! He won't. His messages are no longer annointed, contrary to what his faithful groupies say.
Pastor must realize that the Body in Baltimore is NOT being fed the Word,and that his better days are behind him. He won't.
It comes down to one thing....PRIDE.

It's a long fall from heaven to earth!

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Welcome Anonymous 216.99.185.50
I just wanted to thank you for your post, I am glad to know that I am not the only person who felt uneasy after Wednesday evenings service. I concur with you in regards to the name calling and criticism of each other, it is not Christian like. I was new to the Church but I have since decided not to return to GGWO, I am glad to have returned to a small church where we give Christ standing ovations and not a minister. May God bless you and I hope you will find answers within your heart about GGWO.
Regards,
Another ANON

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Who in their right mind would ever in the real world give a standing ovation to a servant--if that is what he really was?

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Is that Cordell from texas?
Another ANON

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

It is indeed. somebonus@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Hi Cordell,
Good to have your input!
Another ANON

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Thanks, I am out now. Jim Faucett.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

My friends from GGWO called over the weekend, and were very upset about that Wednesday night service. They were upset with the language and also mentioned that the atmosphere seemed charged with something bad. Their teen son was furious with the name calling and has refused to return. The daughter now doesn't want to return to the day school. I have never interfered with their decision to stay with GGWO and they never interfered with our decision to leave, even though I have prayed for years they would see that the teaching was off in too many places. Well, Wednesday night might have finally been the one step too far. I mentioned that the Calvary Chapel might be a place they could look into as many other GGWOers were going there. I guess I shocked them. They didn't expect I knew about churches in their area. I hope they can make the break, but time will tell. They were pretty freaked out about that service.

They are good people and I know they love going to church as a family.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

is there a Calvary Chapel in DE??

[Loretta J. Willits (149.174.164.83)]

Thank you all---some of you---for your kind words but for others, I am definitely ~~not~ "blind and deaf" even though of advanced years. I have a keen intellect and am a sharp observer. I have never said GGWO was perfect, but that ~~no~~ church is perfect.

From these very boards I have seen people totally misread---or deliberately do so---things I have posted, so I know some of them are seriously in need of reading comprehension lessons. One thing my philosophy classes taught me was that words mean things but if two people have a different meaning for one word they cannot have a rational discussion about it.

Certainly, the ad hominum attacks on me and others leaves a stench on these boards. Why take offense at someone at GGWO using the term "idiot" when it has been implied on these boards that ~~I~~ am "blind and deaf" and somehow under the spell of a Svengali-type of preacher? I am not the only one called names on here, so it is hypocritical to point the finger at anyone at GGWO.

A few are even way off base as to what constitutes a Christian, and take offense if anyone points out this to them. Sorry, I didn't make the rules, God did.

When my son was young I told him there would be times where someone would say to him, "Don't play with So-and-so because I don't like him." But I said as long as he was treated decently by that person, he was to make up his own mind as to whom he would associate. In other words, don't let others pick his friends for him. I am happy to say he took that advice and while up in years himself now, he is still in contact with many friends from his younger days.

Now the church is the bride of Christ, and what are some of the words of the marriage ceremony? For richer or poorer, through sickness and healthy...., right? Should a husband desert his wife if she becomes mentally ill or disabled? Should a father disown a son who is trapped in drugs? Should not family members stick together in order to help those among them who need help? Even today there is a man in Florida who wants to pull the plug on his wife while her parents desperately plead for her life. I stand on the side of the parents, but some on these boards, regarding GGWO, would pull the plug.

I cannot comment on recent services at church because I had to miss a number of them due to my leg condition that resulted after double bypass surgery some years ago, first distracted with pain, then a hospital stay, and now outpatient treatment and (supposedly) resting. As soon as I can, however, I will gladly return to GG because for me there is a definite sweet spirit there. I am not "blind" to some problems there but no, I will not desert her just as I did not desert my husband as he was dying of heart disease in his last years.

Where would we be if Christ's disciples, when they discovered how rotten their lives would be, doing as Jesus asked, said to one another "Let's get out of this religion! It was so much easier and safer just being Jews"?

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Loretta,
I do not agree with anyone being nasty to each other on the board or in church. As a Christian we should rise above the name calling etc. and stand true to our convictions whatever they may be. I decided to step away from GGWO for many reasons but Wednesday evenings service was the final straw. I pray that the pain in your leg will dissipate quickly, God bless you.
Another ANON

[Anonymous (63.27.2.69)]

Loretta dear, that "someone" using the word IDIOT
is a pastor and from the pulpit no less...think about it!

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Dear Loretta: In no way shape or form could I imagine anyone thinking you are "blind and deaf".
I think that in a world, especially a country (which I love) that has lost it's sense of loyalty, yours is to be admired.
I do not think that what is happening here is just a matter of loyalty though. It is far more serious than that. The spiritual lives of people are being misguided because of the ego of a man.
And HE IS JUST A MAN, fallible as the rest of us are. The problem in this church is not the body but the self appointed head and it's limbs.
(many of the Pastors and some elders)
This is not an attack on you, at least not from me, I can see that your heart is filled with what you believe to be true.
In many ways this board has turned into something as bad as GGWO, but there are many good people still caring enough on here.
I have read that you have said you have read over many of Carl Stevens books and you could not find error, Loretta if you have been taught in that way how could you find error in what you already beleive to be true? It is just like many of the Pastors who went to Bible College at GG through the years, or any minister who went to a Seminary or Bible College, they are learning what they are taught and the way they are taught. Therefore, they carry those teachings with them. The same way the disciples carried the teachings of Jesus.
With prayer and discernment we should be able to see for ourselves what is in the scriptures. Of course we need a Pastor/Teacher, but they aren't supposed to expound the scriptures into what benefits them. They are suppossed to re-enforce God's word not make up their version of it.
Loretta the bottom line is, You are my sister in Christ. Your walk with the Lord is important to me as mine should be to you. The simple reason being that whatever we are in Christ has purpose, it has God's will and that affects us as Christians and how we relate to the saved and unsaved. I pray that I never would sink to the level of what I have seen and read others do on this board. It shames us all. So please don't take what I say as condemation, it is not meant so. My caring for you is a simple matter of God's Law. I do not wish to see any of my Christian Family lead astray or hurt by false prophets.
In Love of Christ Iz

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Izzie, your post to Loretta was perfectly said...with love, balance and truth.

[Maria T (141.157.104.182)]

Izzie... can you email me at gracekid2@aol.com I have something to share with you.

Maria T

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Thank you so much Roberta. That meant a lot to me. You are very loving. Iz

Maria: I will e-mail you. Thanks Iz

[Loretta J. Willits (64.12.117.20)]

Izzie, dear brother, you err in thinking I judge Pastor Stevens writings by what I have been taught at Greater Grace. I have been there less than four years, whereas I have been at many other churches and Bible classes in my many years before coming to GGWO. No, my one and only measure by which to judge spiritual writings is--and always must be--the Bible. For instance, in one of the booklets there was a typo for the Bible verse; I instantly knew it couldn't be right so where do I look to verify my suspicion? The Bible, of course.

As for this man worship, where does that come from? Pastor Stevens all alone did not and cannot accomplish this! It takes two to tango or, in this case, two hundred or more. Do you get my meaning? Pastor Stevens could preach all day long but if people failed to respond, who could say man worshipping was going on? Someone else has to shoulder the responsibility for the standing ovations and adulant applause, namely, the people doing it!

When I first came to Greater Grace I was surprised at the applause---all of it! In no other church had I experienced applause except if we had a guest speaker or Christmas pageant. The choir singing, the soloists, the pastor's message, all were considered gifts from and to God. The spiritual spell was not rudely broken by loud noise. It was similar to the builders of the great European cathedrals who refused to sign their names to their work because it was done for the glory of God.

Is the applause "wrong"? No, it is merely different. As for the standing ovations, what do those adults think Pastor will do to them if they don't stand? I don't always stand, and so far no one has poked me or hissed that I must stand. If it is thought that a majority of the congregation objects to applause and/or standing ovations, take up a petition and gather signatures to present to the elders. I would be the first to sign because, coming from a Catholic background, I find the popping up and down tiresome.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Anon 68...do something we want you to do....stop screwing up the board and go pray

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

What will happend to GGCA?
Do you put your children there?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Read the second post on thread "GGCA" or click here

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2076.html?1088780976

Would you?

[Out and Free (66.30.49.45)]

You know, no matter how funky and off-the-topic this Factnet message board has gotten it really does serve a positive purpose for those who are questioning their involvement in GG!!

Now, as I look back on my leaving the ministry several months ago, I can see how IMPORTANT reading many of the posts were!

So, despite all its warts, I thank God for Factnet (and now the other 2 sites as well) !!!

Sincerely,
"Over-the-Hump, Out and Free"

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Keep the Baby, 66.30, now that you're out of the bathwater! Best wishes.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Hello Everybody:

I have been away for a bit and was reading a few
threads. Some of the earlier posts on this thread
were talking about not hating TBS/GGWO. It is not
a matter of hating or loving this group and the
people in it. It is a matter of knowing that this
organization is a destructive mind control cult
that uses Jesus message of redemption to deceive
and take advantage of people. TBS/GGWO is full of
many wonderful human beings who have been deceived
by their leaders. It is not accidental. They did
not take a wrong turn. These leaders do it
intentionally.

Carl Stevens is a charlatan. He found a way to use
Jesus as a tool to prey upon people’s need for
love and acceptance. He has the same modus
operandi since he was run out of the Woolwich -
Wiscasset Baptist Church in Woolwich, Maine
because of sleeping with one of the deacon’s
wives. He reels in pretty women and he keeps his
hand in the till.

The good news is once Carl is gone none of the
other leaders have the powerful personality to
keep the facade going. There will be one less
cult in the world with a bunch of rich x-leaders
if their scam to bring in millions is genuine.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

So good to have you back Louise! We have missed you!!

[Bob Brinton (151.203.153.238)]

Hi Louise. Do you by any chance have access to the articles that came out in the Berkshire Eagle during the Doveydenas trial? They ran it as a major feature three days running. I never got to read them.

[bartholomew (162.83.227.130)]

Examples of how his followers view him can be seen in the Bible Speaks Book of Miracles. In the dedication to that book, Stevens is referred to as the Good Shepherd, capital G, capital S. On the next page, in the section "ABOUT THE PASTOR" one reads: "What was it like to walk with Jesus, to see His smile, to be looked upon with that piercing glance, and to hear His precious voice speak those sanctified words? What was it like to laugh with Him, to cry with Him, to eat with Him and to be His friend? Most Christians have wondered this at one time or another. Those in the Bible Speaks stopped wondering years ago. To be a sheep under the shepherdship of Carl Stevens is to know intimately the person of the Lord...To know Pastor Stevens is to know Christ. To love the Pastor is to love the one who gave him to us. As one sheep I speak for thousands who have been led by our beloved shepherd out of Egypt and out of the wilderness into the Promised Land."

[bartholomew (162.83.227.130)]

hmmm...

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Bob - I have them scanned. They are two big to send via email. I will OCR them into text files when I get a chance. If you want me to send them to you via CD in postal mail, please email me with your address and I will.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Nice to have you back, Louise.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.153.238)]

Louise; my email address is on here, I think. But I would just as soon that you post them on here when you can. Thank you for all you've done. Love, Bob

[Anonymous (216.99.185.50)]

Why does Main Thread 19 keep disappearing and coming back???

[Anonymous (68.33.22.175)]

TWO WOMEN CHURCH LEADERS WERE CALLED INTO THE OFFICE TO BE QUESTIONED WHEN THEY DID NOT STAND FOR A STANDING OVATION . I AM NOT ONE OF THESE WOMEN SO I AM NOT MENTIONING THEIR NAMES...

both have left in the past months.

[Anonymous (172.140.84.197)]

162 is that a real booklet? is there a way to get it today? I never heard of it before and would like to read it. thanks for your help.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Patty Huff put that book together and it was published in the print shop at South Berwick. It came out in either 1973 or 1974. It was kept on the shelves until the first rebellion in the late seventies. We took a lot of flack for that book over in England.

Patty was the one who wrote the, "what was it like to walk with Jesus...those in the Bible Speaks stopped wondering about that long ago..."

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You know what, after a moment of thinking it may have been out as late as 1975, because I think it has our graduation picture in it.

[Anonymous (67.171.86.186)]

Did it have anything to do with Patty and Pastor Stevens having their affair, and even later while his first wife Barbara was still alive, yet about to die.
Another sick example of Pastor Worship, condoned of course courtesy of Carl H. Stevens.