Interesting Reading on Cults found on a website

[LA (70.16.7.34)]

Found on
http://www.carm.org/cults.htm (copied and pasted from this link)
<CENTER>Cults!</CENTER>

Cults are everywhere. Some are mainstream and widely accepted. Others are isolationist and hide from examination at great expense. They are growing and flourishing. Some cause great suffering while others appear very helpful and beneficial. Which ever group it is, the ultimate end is their destruction when the Lord returns to claim His own.

What is a cult?
Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of new ideas.
New Teaching - has a new theology and doctrine.
Only True Teaching - often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth.
Strong Leadership - often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group’s teachings and practices.
Asset Acquirement - often requires tithing and/or property transfer to the religious system.
Isolationist - to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally.
Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening lose of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination.
Indoctrination - possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented.
Apocalyptic - to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it.
Experience - various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases, and ‘spiritual’ enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth.
Depravation - sleep and food deprivation which weakens the will of the subject.
This is uncommon, though practiced by more severe cults
Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution.
Many have a non-verifiable belief systems
For example, they would teach something that cannot be verified.
A space ship behind Hale-Bop comet
Or, that God, an alien, or angel appeared to the leader and gave him a revelation
The members are seeded angels from another world, etc.
Often, the philosophy makes sense only if you adopt the full set of values and definitions that it teaches.
With this kind of belief, truth becomes unverifiable, internalized, and easily manipulated through the philosophical systems of its inventor.
The Leader of a Cult
Often charismatic who is considered very special for varying reasons:
The leader has received special revelation from God.
The leader claims to be the incarnation of a deity, angel, or special messenger.
The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission
The leader claims to have special abilities
The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted.
Cult ethos
Usually seek to do good works, otherwise no one would join them.
They are usually moral and possess a good standard of ethical teaching.
Many times the Bible is used or additional "scriptures" are penned.
The Bible, when used, is always distorted with private interpretations.
Many Cults recruit Jesus as one of their own and redefine him accordingly
Cult groups vary greatly.
From the ascetic to the promiscuous.
From esoteric knowledge to very simple teachings.
From the rich and power to the poor and weak.
Who is vulnerable to joining a cult?
Everyone is vulnerable.
Rich, poor, educated, non-educated, old, young, previously religious, atheistic, etc.
General Profile of cult member (some or all of the following)
Disenchanted with conventional religious establishments.
Intellectually confused over religious and/or philosophical issues
Sometimes disenchanted with society as a whole
Has a need for encouragement and support
Emotionally needful
Needs a sense of purpose.
Financially needful
Recruitment techniques
They find a need and fill it. One of the ways they do this is called
"Love Bombing" - Constant positive affection in word and deed.
Sometimes there is a lot of physical contact like hugging, pats on the back, and touching.
Cult group members will lend emotional support to someone in need.
Help them in various ways...whatever is needed.
The person then becomes indebted to the cult.
Compliment them, reassure them, and make them the center of attention.
Many Cults use the influence of the Bible and/or mention Jesus as being one of their own; thereby adding validity to their system.
Scripture twisting
Those that use the Bible take verses out of context
Then mix their misinterpreted verses with their aberrant philosophy.
Gradualism
Slow altering of thinking processes and belief system through repeated teaching
People usually accept cult doctrines one point at a time.
New beliefs are reinforced by other cult members.
Why would someone join?
The cult satisfies various needs:
Psychological - Someone could have a weak personality, easily lead.
Emotional - Someone could have recently suffered an emotional trauma
Intellectual - Someone has questions that this group answers.
The cult gives them approval, acceptance, purpose, and a sense of belonging.
The cult is appealing for some reason. It could be . . .
Moral rigidity and purity
Financial security
Promises of exaltation, redemption, higher consciousness, or a host of other rewards.
How are they kept in the cult?
Dependence
People often want to stay because the cult meets their psychological, intellectual, and spiritual needs.
Isolation
Outside contacts are reduced and more and more of the life of the member is built around the cult.
It then becomes very easy to control and shape the member.
Cognitive Reconstruction (Brainwashing):
Once the person is indoctrinated, their thinking processes are reconstructed to be consistent with the cult and to be submissive to its leaders.
This facilitates control by the cult leader(s).
Substitution
The Cult and cult leaders often take the place of mother, father, priest, teacher, and healer.
Often the member takes on the characteristics of a dependent child seeking to win the approval of the leader and or group.
Indebtedness
The member becomes indebted to the group emotionally, financially, etc.
Guilt
The person is told that to leave is to betray the leader, God, the group, etc.
The person is told that leave would mean to reject the love and help the group has given.
Threat
Threat of destruction by God for turning from the truth.
Sometimes physical threat is used, though not often.
Threat of missing the apocalypse, or being judged on judgment day, etc.
How do you get them out?
The best thing is to try not to let them get trapped in the first place.
If you are a Christian, then pray.
But, to get a person out of a cult takes
Time, energy, and support.
Teach them the truth.
Give them a true replacement for their aberrant belief system
Show the cult group's philosophic inconsistencies
Study the group and learn its history seeking clues and information.
Try and get them physically away from the cult group.
Give them the support they need emotionally.
Alleviate the threat that if they leave the group they are doomed or in danger.
Generally, don't attack the leader of the group...that comes later.
Converts often feel a loyalty and respect for the founder of the group.
Confront them when needed.
Hopefully, this basic outline will give you information to see how Cults work and how to avoid them. If you have someone who is lost in a cult, you need to pray and ask the Lord to remove them and give you the insight and tools needed. It can be a long and arduous task and very often ends in failure. This is not an easy ministry.

[LA (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">And if after reading this section, Do you believe that gg is a cult? yes or no? why or why not? After all Factenet is a section for cults and sects.</FONT>

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">I read this section as well and wanted to add it here...</FONT>

"Do we have the right to make these judgments?

To pronounce another religious group to be false can seem a pompous undertaking, especially in a culture that preaches tolerance for everything from homosexuality to a mother's "right" to kill her unborn child. Tolerance is the banner that unites much of our culture and anyone who points a judging finger at someone or something is often ridiculed.
But Christians are told in the Bible to separate themselves from the sinful practices of man and to expose error. "Examine all things and to hold fast to that which is true" says God's word (1 Thess. 5:21). So we do.
What does it mean to examine if we do not judge what is right and wrong? Jesus judged the Pharisees as hypocrites. Peter judged Ananias and Saphira as liars (Acts 5:3-4). Paul judged the Galatians as fools (Gal. 3:1).
The reason something can be said to be right or wrong is because the Bible has laid out before us a moral and doctrinal standard that is clear. It is wrong to lie. So, we are able to say to someone who lies, "What you are doing is wrong." That is making a judgment.
Likewise, with the cults, as Christians we are commanded to be able to give answers to everyone (1 Pet. 3:15) and to contend for the faith that was delivered by the apostles (Jude 4). If we do not fight for the faith, the faith will be lost. If we do not expose the errors of the cults then the cults will move unchecked in the world and lead even more into eternal destruction.
To make a judgment means that we must recognize that there are absolutes. In a world that worships relativism, absolutes are not welcome and the cults that espouse their demonic doctrines beg tolerance.
CARM stands for the truth of God's word, not a compromising collection of beliefs that changes as people's whims change. The cults are cults because they deny the true God, add works to salvation, and corrupt a multitude of biblical truths. Their end and the end of all who follow them is damnation. To do anything other than warn people about them would be unloving."

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Tell me Lori, what do you believe?

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">Well after being in ggwo for a little while, and listening to what quite a few have said past &amp; present, and from reading about what a cult is in the sections I have pasted here, I believe it be a cult, just my opinion, I do not want to start a war or get anyone's panties in a bunch</FONT>

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">Also with messages I have heard from the pulpit and I see how gg operates...also to correct my grammer on the above post..I believe it to be*, there so no one thinks im speaking ebonics...lol</FONT>

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Thank You LA !

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I am in agreement, Lori for all the reasons mentioned in the first post of this thread.

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">you're welcome 67163, and http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif to you Roberta</FONT>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[Nancy (172.144.89.71)]

May I ask a question? How do you propose God Himself wanted His Word to be taught? According to the Scriptures, chapter and verse please. I am not saying what and what is not a cult.

My question is honestly how do you choose a church? And I want Bible Scripture and verse not opinions.

Thanks.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

I also agree it's a cult, based on my experiences with the ministry, reading Carl's pamphlets, watching internet services and listening to Grace Hour.

Hey Roberta, I have probably missed it, but what is your story regarding GGWO? How about you, Lori? And you, Martin L. Just curious because I find I agree with most of your opinions and your senses of humor.

I need to hear a story about how somebody woke up and got better today.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

read the new testament

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">I found this on the website as well, regarding church...hope it helps.</FONT>

http://www.carm.org/questions/church.htm

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

69.242.21.100,

Been reading it every day lately! After reading some of Martin L.'s posts, I have been reading a lot of John and have been having my spirit fed.

I just need to hear about how someone from GGWO "got better" and left. Was it a single event or was it a slow process of gradually coming into the light? Just wondering and hoping I could get some practical advice for a friend still inside.

[Lori Argenzio (70.16.7.34)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">Well I just never really agreed to a lot that was said while I was in gg, my story is kinda long..feel free to email me if you wish..I am just a strong willed person, and if I believe something is not good for me then I just cast it out of my life...click my name to email me</FONT>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

The Three Stages of Gaining Control of the Mind
[Adapted from Kurt Lewin's three-stage model as described in Coercive Persuasion (Norton, 1961) by Edgar Schein]

1. Unfreezing

a. Disorientation / confusion
b. Sensory deprivation and/or sensory overload
c. Physiological manipulation

1. Sleep deprivation
2. Privacy deprivation
3. Change of diet

d. Hypnosis

1. Age regression
2. Visualizations
3. Story-telling and metaphors
4. Linguistic double binds, use of suggestion
5. Meditation, chanting, praying, singing

e. Get person to question self identity

f. Redefine individual's past (implant false memories, forget positive memories of the past)


2. Changing

a. Creation and imposition of new "identity" done step by step

1. Formally within indoctrination sessions
2. Informally by members, tapes, books, etc.

b. Use of Behavior Modification techniques

1. Rewards and punishments
2. Use of thought-stopping techniques
3. Control of environment

c. Mystical manipulation
d. Use of hypnosis and other mind-altering techniques

1. Repetition, monotony, rhythm
2. Excessive chanting, praying, decreeing, visualizations

e. Use of confession and testimonials

3. Refreezing

a. New identity reinforced, old identity surrendered

1. Separate from the past; decrease contact or cut off friends and family
2. Give up meaningful possessions and donate assets
3. Start doing cult activities: recruit, fundraise, move in with members

b. New name, new clothing, new hairstyle, new language, new "family"

c. Pairing up with new role models, buddy system

d. Indoctrination continues: Workshops, retreats, seminars, individual studies, group activities

Remember,cult mind control does not erase the person's old identity, but rather creates a new one to suppress the old identity (John-John and John-cult).

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

thats some good info on cult practice ..

[Anonymous (151.203.163.174)]

Remember,cult mind control does not erase the person's old identity, but rather creates a new one to suppress the old identity (John-John and John-cult).

[Anonymous (63.27.74.231)]

The article “What is a cult?” was VERY thought provoking indeed!
I’ve listed some of the characteristics I believe relate to GGWO/TBS. Please give further details about or add to these as you feel led. Thanks!


“...devotion to a person” = Carl Stevens

"… has a new theology and doctrine.” = The Finished Work and certainly many others, so help me out JF, no-no tone, Martin L and company

“Only True Teaching - often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth.” = On many occasions,Stevens would arrogantly mock other organized religions and people OUTSIDE of GGWO.
The lips of the elders constantly proclaiming "Where else can we get such teaching?"

“Strong Leadership - often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group’s teachings and practices.” = Stevens, Robinson, Marr, Scibelli, Schaller, Schoalert, Steve Stevens, Stenger and formerly Paul Stevens.

“Asset Acquirement - often requires tithing and/or property transfer to the religious system.” = VERY, VERY strong inference to that effect.

“Isolationist - to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally.” = Being “knit in the “Body”


”Indoctrination - possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented.” = As stated above, often heard Stevens arrogantly mock other organized religions.


“Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution.” = The US vs. THEM mentality was prevalent at GGWO. Stevens was CONSTANTLY bringing up the injustice at Lenox or speaking ill of someone who had dared to leave his ministry…

“The Leader of a Cult often charismatic who is considered very special for varying reasons” = To true, but WHY? Must be the wig and his accent! LOL

“The leader has received special revelation from God.” = Liquid Waves of Love

“The leader claims to be…or special messenger.” = The Prophet, ONE Shepherd, ONE Pastor/Teacher, God’s Man…

“The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission” = Worthly Pond experience

”The leader claims to have special abilities” = Claims to have raised the dead and taught a full sermon in a language he did not know.

“The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted.” = delegated authority, ONE pastor/teacher, Carl will present his church to Jesus, Touch not God’s anointed…

“The Bible, when used, is always distorted with private interpretations.” = Stevens and Lewis’ weird dispensationalism

”Needs a sense of purpose.” = Lead to believe it is a “higher calling” to attend GGWO

"Love Bombing" - Constant positive affection in word and deed. = Made to feel a part, invited to others homes, parties…

”Scripture twisting” = Jim I leave this one up to you buddy!

“Those that use the Bible take verses out of context” = I can remember Carl rattling off at least 20 to 30 scriptures off of the top of his head while preaching. Sometimes they did NOT make ANY sense at all.

”Then mix their misinterpreted verses with their aberrant philosophy = Carl uses psychological concepts!

“New beliefs are reinforced by other cult members.”= to question any teaching of “Pastor” considered a “Cocatrice egg” or “evil report.”

”Moral rigidity and purity” = NO TOUCH LOVE!

“Promises of exaltation, redemption, higher consciousness, or a host of other rewards.” = Teaching on “sharing of rewards” with other GGWO believers

“Outside contacts are reduced and more and more of the life of the member is built around the cult.” = They keep you SO busy doing: outreach, church three times a week, raps…

“Once the person is indoctrinated, their thinking processes are reconstructed to be consistent with the cult and to be submissive to its leaders.” = You MUST stay in the geographical will of God aka at Carl’s beck and call 24/7

“The person is told that to leave is to betray the leader, God, the group, etc.” = DEFINITELY implied after hearing the “horror stories” of former members and what became of their lives after departing!

“Threat of destruction by God for turning from the truth.” = Five men died who went against my ministry, so and so is in an insane asylum today for leaving the ministry, Dr. Walter Martin’s death after the CRI Report came out…

”Threat of missing the apocalypse, or being judged on judgment day, etc.” = Carl’s teaching on the Bema Seat.

PLEASE ADD YOUR INSIGHTS…

[Anonymous (63.27.74.231)]

Oops, I forgot "Dr" Dan Lewis as leadership! Don't want to offend him by not acknowledging his role in this mess.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

63.27.74.231

The "Finished Work" is *not* a new doctrine with GGWO per se. In fact the Finished Work permeates both the O.T. and N.T. Scriptures (... assuming one believes the 66 Books of the Bible represent THE inspired Word of God). The problem is that Carl H. Stevens and GGWO misuse and "over-apply" the "Finished Work" to "cover or deflect" issues including adultery of keys leaders, over-amplified (if not downright strange) doctrines, allegiance to "the man of God", etc.

A responsible form of Church government would deal with these things because the Bible provides specific instruction to do so. Attempting to "mold" everything into "Finished Work faith rest" or "It is Finished so I don't have to deal with" is simply unsound. It leads to a distorted view of the Gospel, abbrogation of the Law, and ultimately the destruction of the conscience.

The true Finished Work of Jesus Christ, to purchase eternal redemption for all whom God has sovereignly elected to salvation is supported completely by the Bible (especially in the Pauline Epistles). The Finished Work is also a well established historical doctrine of the Church and has received extensive treatment by all major, credible theologians from the Reformation until now.

I'm sure that JF can add more!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

Yeah. And the whole 'not repeating a matter' had nothing to do with 'the government' not wanting to know the faults of all those poor schmucks around you. It had to do with not uncovering the sins within 'the government'. If we'd only realized what really was going on. You really have to hear someone's preaching for a season to know if it's tainted with this sort of thing. Patterns become clear when you keep hearing from the same source. Isolating one message is similar to isolating one verse in the Word and forming a doctrine from it. The fruit from the good tree runs good as a way of life; not sometimes good sometimes bad; though one bad apple message might slip in. We've all got our blind spots.

[Anonymous (63.27.13.53)]

Your intelligent and insightful clarity is appreciated no-no and Bob, the point you declare is very sad but true.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

Roberta after reading your list of things cults use, wouldn't it be then safe to say that every christian church in the world is in fact a cult? i mean what's the point of them other than to help people forget their pasts, show them that they are a new person in christ, sing and pray. how does one learn about christ as we really should be doing on a 24/7 time frame with out books and tapes and other such things?

"New identity reinforced, old identity surrendered" isn't that the very nature of God, the old things are passed away and the new are all that matter, we are dead to sin ect.

"given a New name" we go from being a called siner with no hope to one that is called saved, God gives us a new name.

maybe i'm missing the point, if i am then sorry.

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

24, you are missing the point completely, perhaps purposly.

True Christianity does not NEED to resort to undue influence and mind control tactics to covert sinners and make disciples. Cults, such as GGWO, because they teach false doctrines such as "pastoral authority, must employ tactics to keep people isolated, indoctrinated and in fear of the world at large to maintain controll over the congregation.

I suggested this to you in another thread this morning...read "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan. It maps out the progressive steps used by cults and does so in a way that is easier to understand that what can be told here.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

GGWO has NEVER kept people in fear of the outside world, you're over extending what was said, their stand was simple, you don't know what kind of teaching or doctrine that other preachers, be they radio or other are teaching.

Stevens as well as almost every other GGWO pastor has said, "Go to where God is calling you!" if it's with them great,if not then just be safe, that is not as you make it sound, like they want people to be fearful! you are putting your soul in an other sinner saved by graces hands you darn well better know what they are teaching! if that is as i've heard many times over the GGWO stand then i stand by it!

you can't just hop around from church to church untill one tickles your ear and says things you like!

as far as "pastoral authority," read 1 peter 2:13-14

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

You do not know what you are talking about. Baltimore is not Lenox. You are wrong. many of the people who are at Baltimore have been with Stevens for 20-30+ years and have been indoctrinated very well. What you see in Baltimore is NOT the way it was other places.

For example...As students at SSB we were told never to "go back to egypt" to visit mom and dad without taking someone from TBS with you, because mom and dad an the world would tell you lies and try to tear you away from your call.

Carl taught false doctrines about pastoral authority...read the CRI report. Read the lake Elsinore letter.

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Dear Anonymous 24.58.114.87 you incorrectly referred to 1 Peter 2:13-14 to teaching pastoral authority:
“as far as "pastoral authority," read 1 peter 2:13-14”
A text without a context is a pretext!!!
1. This verse has to do with the Christian submitting to the secular governmental authorities over them.
2. The verses deal with every human institution. The church is not a human institution it is a Divine institution set up by the LORD Jesus Christ (ref. Matthew 16:13-19.
3. As Christian citizens we should submit to every human government. It does not mean we have to obey every law that the government sets up. For example, if the government were to declare a law forbidding us to assemble together, we have a scriptural command to assemble in Hebrews 10:25 and we obey God rather than man. For instance, Daniel in the lions den, the three Hebrew boys in the furnace, the apostles continuing their preaching of Jesus as resurrected and ascended and offering salvation as a free gift to all who believe are good examples of believers obeying God rather than man.
4. Peter instructed us what offices to obey. The king meant the emperor in his day. We respect the office; he did not advocate or preach the overthrow of the government. We as Christians can thrive under any governmental system as church history teaches.
Conclusion: These verses have absolutely nothing to do with pastoral authority. They are teaching us to be good citizens in the society that we live in.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

24.58 -

Whether you are one of the flock or one of the minions of GGWO is indeterminable. Regardless, and at the very least on THIS matter, you are COMPLETELY deceived by this aberrant religious group and the scripture twisting of its narcisstic leadership.

This is evidenced by your statement: "GGWO has NEVER kept people in fear of the outside world"

This statement is a TOTAL untruth.

You have made it either unknowingly (I will pray for God to enlighten you.) OR knowingly (I will pray for God to enlighten AND convict you.)

Either way, you will be in my prayers.

Dave Drago, thanks for untangling the knots.

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Roberta,
You have two different issues on the table. If my memory serves me correct (this goes back to 84-87):
1. The ‘don't go back to Egypt’ was preaching not to return to worldliness and our pre-salvation days. I do not recall one time when I went home that I was instructed to bring a friend to keep me from forsaking my call. But, I am relying on memory. You may have heard it that way or who knows!!!
2. Carl taught false doctrines about pastoral authority...read the CRI report. Read the lake Elsinore letter.
The CRI and Lake Elsinore are great reading. The church was affirmed for body life and corporate evangelism. The leaders were called out on an unusual brand of delegated authority and unquestioning loyalty from attendees. I use the word attendees because the only members are the elders. There is an over emphasis on pastoral authority and no accountability. We continually were told who the leader was, but we never heard who he was accountable to.
Conclusion: Many different churches have leadership in place that is accountable to the people. The leaders lead but they are not above the church or lord it over them. This is the heart of the matter. The deep structure issues are what cause the surface problems in GGWO of “enemy in the camp, one with the ministry, I love pastor, people walking wounded, etc.”
Let me say this: I love the pastor and I am a friend of the ministry. However, I strongly disagree with their over emphasis on pastoral authority and the lack of accountability and the abuses that it causes. Yet, I am an SBC pastor who has roots in TBS/GGWO. I pray more pastors in their GGWO network would be more vocal. You can disagree and still love,etc. without being disagreeable. Yet, I refer to the deep structrue issues that prevent this from happening.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (63.27.31.142)]

A few weeks ago I encountered Carl Stevens out and about. I said "hello" and left. As I was walking away from him I turned and requested prayer, for a decision regarding a possible upcoming move to another city. He yelled after me, "NO!" "YOU MUST STAY AND SUBMIT TO AUTHORITY!!!"

Care to explain this outburst 24.58?

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

You are welcome. I will post on biblical leadership, ie,e. the impetus from the LORD on how to lead and serve and be accountable to the flock as time allows. The system at GGWO is what causes the problems. There are many beautiful beleivers in GGWO and many humble servants. I beleive change will come. It will be costly and painful.
For HIm,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

24.58 is an interesting subject. He/she is a troll/mole, in my opinion. There is no consistency of thought. It seems his/her words jump into discussions to poke, prod, insult and cause others pain. There is an ignorance, at best, of cults and abusive groups. But more likely a clear-cut motivation to undermine anyone from freeing themselves of a cultic group. He/she portrays as a distant connection yet on other threads reveals some inside and long-time knowledge of TBS/GGWO. I have the uneasy feeling of something sinister. Does anyone else feel the same? Or have further observations of 24.58?

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

I thought I would re post this entry on leadership as it pertains to this healthy discussion from Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:08 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What every believer should know and expect from church leaders:
1. Stay accountable to the flock in an atmosphere of unity and peace
2. Keep their personal and public life clean
3. Feed the flock
4. Love the flock
5. Honor the priesthood of every believer
6. Don’t abuse and use the office of pastor-teacher for personal gain or recognition
7. Do not legislate but lead the church with integrity by casting vision and building consensus
8. Establish an environment of listening and caring
9. Realize not everybody will always agree with the leadership, but love and respect their opinion and value their worth as a member of the church..this is a two-way street!!!
10. Don’t make every area of church life, “you need to obey me.” Rather, make it we need to obey Him!
Thought: You can pump water uphill…it is hard but it can be done!!! You can lead a church with God’s Holy Spirit…it is hard but it can be done.
“And He gave some as…pastor-teachers to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.” Ephesians 4:11
Does this sound like Christian leadership?
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

I don't worry about trolls/moles. If the converstaion helps them see what/where they are at, then perhaps they will be challenged to not accept the status quo.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (63.27.31.142)]

Isn't 24.58 the one who started LIQUID WAVES O' STEVENS?

[Anonymous (63.27.31.142)]

Anonymous (24.58.114.87)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:05 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I just had to show you all this site, i'm not sure what to make of it...

http://www.geocities.com/toolmahass/Liquid_Waves_O.htm

[Anonymous (63.27.31.142)]

What gives 24.58...you create a mocking website then you get on Factnet and attack people?

HYPOCRITE!

[Anonymous (63.27.31.142)]

LOOK THE IP IS IDENTICAL!

Anonymous (24.58.114.87)
Monday, August 30, 2004 - 07:23 am

Care to explain 24?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Yes, yes and yes (205, Dave and 63).

In situations such as this, at times it is necessary to answer trolls in order to both correct misunderstanding and counter purposeful deception. We must constantly and continually speak the truth for the sake of those who may be just finding it.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Well, we shall shine the light on our trolls and then move on. Trolls should not be shown undue attention.

[Anonymous (63.27.86.124)]

We at Liquid Waves have proof that Stevens Demands worship from his followers!!!

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FACTNet Message Board: Religious Cults and Sects: Greater Grace World Outreach: We at Liquid Waves have proof that Stevens Demands worship from his followers!!!
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CHECK OUT THE NUMBER OF WHO STARTED THIS THREAD!=>Anonymous (24.58.114.87)
Friday, August 27, 2004 - 06:57 pm
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Just in to us are pictures to show the facts. It must be true!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

VERY SUSPICIOUS!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Also solicited email responses to the website. Hummm..

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

"1. The ‘don't go back to Egypt’ was preaching not to return to worldliness and our pre-salvation days. I do not recall one time when I went home that I was instructed to bring a friend to keep me from forsaking my call. But, I am relying on memory. You may have heard it that way or who knows"

Your experience as a male on campus was not at all what it was like for the women. We were taught very very different things from the dorm leaders and the women leaders in different years. We were not allowed much by way of individuality and "going back to egypt" was "going home unescorted" for many that first year. individual girls were treaated differently, according to how you were evaluated by those in control. That is why some girls were locked into their rooms and others were not. it was also very secret...unless you were part of the inner workings of the place you didn't have much of a clue as to the over all attitude.

We were taught not to go home without a "covering" of another believer especially if your parents did not want you in bible school. Select girls were told that if they were prevented from returning to Lenox, someone would be sent to get them...I could tell you more but I wonder if anyone would believe it.

(egypt* was the world, anyhting outside the campus control was the world and discussed as *egypt* for many of the women.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

dand, Dave...*LOL* that last post of mine sounds waaaaay too confrontational and I wasn't writing that way at all...yikes. Sorry if it sounds that way, cuz I wasn't feeling at all confrontational with you when I wrote it.

Sometimes I wish there were better ways to show how we intend the words on these boards...sheeesh. *LOL*

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Roberta,
For you to say that there were two different standards applied to men and women is completely believable. I will not go into the controlling behavior my wife (then my fiance Christine Rostock) experienced firsthand by the Dean of Women at that time. We have forgiven her and wish her the best because we realize she was thrust into a critical position without any training or background as a Dean of Women. It would not surprise me if the women's dorm devotionals took on that direction. I look forward to speaking with Chris about this. Ed Lutz was my dorm pastor and I thank God for his investment and love he dispalyed to me. Chris and I were in love and we found a way to spend time with each other...17 years and four children later I believe we made the right choice.

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

You DID make the right choice, as did Scott and I...but it wasn't easy to find time to spend with each other as I recall. I remember Chris and her wonderful impish laughter. There were fun times in Lenox that I can recall too, but they tried hard to make me into someone who would help "shepherd" the younger girls, and the more I refused the harder it got for me. I came to Lenox in my late 20's and I think they thought I would join them in making the younger girls stay in line. Linda was inexperienced to be sure. And I think she was trying hard to do right, but it all was against her better judgement I think. I loved her, still do, but we tangled some. I just didn't want to be telling anyone else how to behave. I was so busy and ill and trying to work, go to school, outreach...I just continued to refuse their efforts to make me into something I didn't believe God wanted.

Anyway...you were fortunate indeed to have Ed Lutz. He was one pastor I respected and totally enjoyed. There was no pretense with him. What you saw was really who he was. I admired him for that, for it wasn't always easy to find.

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Bert: Chris still has the laugh and so do our children. I am getting ready to go home for dinner. Great day today studying, visiting our sick membes in the hospital and watching the remodel of our facility start today! I usually check this site on Mondays and Thursdays. Pastor Lutz is doing well, he has moved on. How is Scott?

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

Scott is doing well...he's becoming a little more comfortable with this factnet business as he calls it...he's got a stubborn streak, let me tell you. But I know God will turn him round...He's just not one to say much about it .

I will tell him you asked of him Dave. Pray for him will you? My love to Chris!

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Chris and I worked at Hillcrest/Avalon...high adventure!!! We used to walk home together after our shift. I bought a Scooter from Ed Canino and we used to ride to work on that tiny thing!!! It was great because she had an excuse to wrap her arms around me and hold on for life. We used to go a whopping 35 mph and fly thru side neighborhoods to have time with each other. LOL. Good times. Now we walk our two Boxers together. Maybe we should buy another Scooter...our kids woulod think we lost it!!!
For Him,
Dave

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

I will pray for him. I remember him.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

cults on the web eh? great find!