GRACE HOUR BLOOPERS AND BLUNDERS Past present and future

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

This thread is for real - documented evidence of erronious statements said on the air by Carl, Paul, Steve (Stevens) and Guests - Live and unedited.

Please give dates and times and the message name when possible.

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

Martin, what's the point? We all know you disagree with GGWO doctrine. Do you think after 35-40 years on air that there would be no questionable statements. Even you are not infallible! Welcome to the world of fallen humanity. Thank God for the cross. And no Grace is not cheap, it cost Jesus Christ His life.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

My point is to find some current doccumented evidence of currently erronious teachings that could make the case that Carl is off his rocker on many of his premises. If they let that stuff get on the air, then it is fair game for a practical analysis. People generally don't pick-up on the inuendos of his many innocently made statements, but entire doctrines are built upon them by the GGWO zealots.

Here is a new one-

On todays grace hour "massage" (didn't catch the name or date), someone told me Carl was determining how that by using the Roman calendar he could prove Jesus was born on December 24th.He used the base date of March 24th and counted 9 months, but a woman's gestation period is 40 weeks. That would put Jesus' birth in December as premature. Was Jesus a "premie"? Is this true.

Did anyone else here this? What was he trying to say?

By the way, as much as I love the Guy - when did P. Dimaeo" in france become the ambassador of Carl's "unfinished", finished work doctrine? I thought that was "Dr" Lewis's job. He's another slippery one, but that's another issue.

Dimeao is the "Poster Boy" of Carl's false theolgy. He always calls in to Grace Hour from this country and that, and from this city and that to report his progress or furtharing Carl's gospel. Give me a break. Is he building bridges or setting them up for a fall. Recently He was trying to convince Chuck Smith to follow Carl and get his books and tapes to start the indoctrination process there.

I say stop wasting the donors money on self serving radio programs like grace hour that is full of error. Give the money to the poor and needy - not the sick and greedy. 40 years is enough

[Dave (4.156.90.116)]

On Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 01:06 pm
Martin L. said:

>>>
On todays grace hour "massage"
(didn't catch the name or date),
someone told me Carl was determining how that by using the Roman calendar
he could prove Jesus was born on December 24th.

He used the base date of March 24th and counted 9 months,
but a woman's gestation period is 40 weeks.

That would put Jesus' birth in December as premature.

Was Jesus a "premie"?

Is this true.

Did anyone else here this?

What was he trying to say?
>>>

Pastor Stevens said:

>>>
Now listen carefully,
I want to give you something that is beautiful Isagogics which means historical truth.

In 300 A.D. in the Roman Almanac by Christian Chronographers,
that means people that write about time, OK

Jesus was conceived on March 25th , and he was born exactly on December 25TH.
and the Christian festival was only 300 years after He died

OK, he was conceived in the spring and born for the winter months.

You say “Where did you get that?”

Roman Almanac
Doctor Leroy Hineson
with all kinds of anonymous Christian Chronographers

>>>


Dave

[wwr (200.117.192.80)]

Normal human gestation is considered to be between 266 and 270 days. Divide that by 7 and you have 38 to 38 and a half weeks. Divide that by 4.3 weeks per month and you have just slightly under an even 9 months. Your 40 week figure is derived from the fact that pregnancy is sometimes counted as 10 lunar months, or 280 days, but it's rare that one actually goes that long without the baby being huge. Given the fact that Mary was possibly as young as 14 when she gave birth to Jesus, and the fact that she had just ridden quite a distance on a donkey or walked that same distance, it would not be surprising that she carried him for the shorter amount of time, possibly even less than the 38 weeks. A week or two early doesn't necessarily qualify a child to be classed as premature.

Given the fact that Pastor Stevens cited his sources for that information, I think that you should be taking issue with them and not him. But of course if your real agenda isn't truth, rather a personal attack, I understand completely why Doctor Leroy Hineson isn't the one with the forum dedicated to him.

RWW

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

To RWW: aka Skip Wood

Sure Skip
just like the GGWO bumper sticker
what your trying to say is;
"Pastor said it, I believe it, that settles it!"

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

216,
Pastor Wood has the right to his say. Why aren't you taking issue with Martin L. or Dave, the two wackiest nuts on this board????

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

To 7:27 pm

Because he has no credibility or sincerity.

[wwr (200.117.192.80)]

Why not take issue with the guy that Pastor quoted then?

Additionally, on what are you basing my supposed lack of credibility and sincerity?

Thanks for clarifying as I'm a bit confused on those points.

[wwr (200.117.192.80)]

One more thing to 64.12.117.20:

How come you only show up on this thread with a comment after my post? Have you got a personal gripe with me or what?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

64.12.117.20 is a common AOl IP number.

If your comment is directed to this particular 64, I believe I wrote to you and said I no longer trusted you, but I have no gripe with you and have not addressed one post in your direction.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Ahhhh, yes. The Skip Wood from the old Rumford, Maine branch ministry, yes?

Roberta

[Anonymous (4.139.6.91)]

GRACE HOUR?

Instead, don't you mean call up Pastor Stevens and Kiss His Ass Hour!


NOTE: This is a VERY important nonprofit cause to support with: banquets, donations and the like.

RIGHT!

[Anonymous (4.139.18.208)]

SSSSSSSMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOCCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHH!!

[Anonymous (4.139.15.250)]

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

As ususal - the normal hecklers who are trying to bang-out the red "out of oil" light on their car because they don't know what else to do.

[Anonymous (4.139.6.40)]

On numerous occasions while listening to The Grace Hour; callers with life and death issues have been cut off midsentence; only to be replaced by some pathetic "Pastor" worshipping brainwashee's inane comments about "Pastor."

The thought occured that perhaps the blood of some of these desperate callers may be on the heads of the Pastors: Stevens, Robinson, Lewis, Schaller and Scibelli, to name a few.

Sadly, many of these shunned callers sounded suicidal and desperate; only be told that they were out of time. CLICK!

Please go to the Greater Grace World Outreach website: GGWO.org to the Grace Hour archives dated April 13, 2004 to listen to an excellent example of the above stated concern.

Also I am curious if pastors from affiliate ministries are given a scheduled time to call The Grace Hour on a monthly basis. Reason being most of the callers are "same old same old" calling in with the "same old same old" flattery!

Some may argue "double honor" is being paid...while others, like myself, are tasting their own vomit at the thought of this!!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

To: 4.139.6.40 LOL
thanks i will check out that archive, BTW
How about Butch Veader calling in with some of his staged questions under a false name that Stevens put him up to.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Todays Grace hour message by Paul Stevens - a pre recorded tape someone was proud to play.

If you want to hear a prime example of a true hallmark "double message" - Listen to Paul's "making it up on the spot" message concerning living in your true identity as a Christian. I wish I could get the transcript on this one.

On the one hand he says God wants us to be exactly what he made us to be "in Christ" using the example of how in the Old testament God renames the "believer" and by that new name they have a new identity. ie : Jacob and Esau.(they were not Believers as in part of the body of Christ otherwise the name thing would not have been an issue)

On the other hand, while Paul is willing to acknowledge his marriage vows to this doctrine, he takes his doctrinal wedding ring off and says that it is really the effort of the believer to keep the faith that makes them blessed. The idea that a Jacob is blessed and an Esau is not, is an Old Testament mixture teaching concept. The believer never needs to make this type of choice if they are "in Christ". In Christ they are not "in sin" any longer, and are living "In the Blessor" and the "Blesser" is living within them. One does not have to seek "the blessing" when they are "In the blessing" already.God is not external. We as believers do not have to "seek" him while he can be found. We have found him and he is here.

I call this disjointed christianity. It is a lie and is erronious and confuses the saints who have been continualy fed this type of "Gar-bage'".
Paul needs to get his doctrine straight. If there is any repenting that needs to be sone - it is on this issue. Paul does not need to repent of sin, he needs to change his direction from error.

Get me the barf bag.

Martin L.

[Anonymous (200.117.192.80)]

Martin, your horse, like Dave's is dead.

[pop (80.74.211.176)]

Somebody ask about spiritual mapping and pastor
heard napping

[Anonymous (216.183.185.140)]

In the early nineties does anyone remember the morning that Bernadette Stenger called in grace hour and identified herself then proceeded to ask Stevens in a way that she pretended she was asking for some one else this question- What do you do if your husband keeps asking you to perform oral sex on him?
Tom Stenger was a deep shade red that night at class when someone asked him about it.
BTW I never did hear what Tom thinks about the whole issue, he had to leave quickly.

[COG (141.157.99.130)]

Are Tom and Bernadette still together?
Where are they now?

[Anonymous (4.155.66.246)]

Yes, they are still together in Baltimore.

Why didn't you tell us what Pastor's answer was to that question?

[Christine (141.157.99.130)]

8:31:

I posted the other day about being in Vienna and hearing Carl make a statement during a rap session about oral sex.

He said that it is "filthy and vile" and that a man should never ask his wife to do it.

I sat there wondering how he could tell married people what to do in their own bedrooms......

[Anonymous (207.7.199.244)]

He should mind his own business.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Today’s "mess" age" was a mess. Paul Stevens warned anyone who would even think of mentioning anything to him about his Brother Steve or his Dad Carl should think twice, because: "they might get a reaction they do not expect". Does that mean he's premeditated to get violent? Will he give them the "Maine" version of a fistfight and “five good reasons to back-off”, or will it be just a verbal bashing or worst yet a "shun" treatment in the name of Grace. Perhaps he will sic some of his loyalists to break someone’s legs (spiritually speaking).

By the way that little message was his expression of understanding of his Fathers message on Grace. How appropriate. Grace in Paul’s book is just about at its "wits end".

Let me explain: Paul’s threat must be viewed as Gods permissive will, in this instance We must remain precise in the application of its equivocation in the theantric action of behavior as it relates to the frontal lobe processing of the neuronal impulses of decision making in grace application of truth. In other words do what you feel like and repent for it later.

Paul also admits to doing stupid things, saying stupid things, and that he will continue to do so like an ass (donkey). But his counsel to Grace Hour listeners, is to stand back and enjoy God using him in his dumbness. (Ha, Ha, Ha - he nervously chuckles). I don't find anything about it as amusing, I find it rather sad. Perhaps he is generally speaking to the ones whom he believes are unjustly attacking him (he uses Grace Hour as a forum for his own personal communication. Perhaps this is “Paul’s FactNet!”

The problem here is Steven's theology teaches that people must strive to be and keep themselves in the will of God, and that since Christians sin every day and get out of his will when they sin, they must get back to where they once belonged (The Gospel according to the Beatles). In the true finished work Gospel, one should not try to do the will of God, and get into the will of God when they, "in Christ" ARE the will of God already. They could not be saints, and perfect and complete if it were not so. Paul was made an apostle by the will of God and not the will of man. So we are made righteous by the will of God and remain and abide in that perfect righteousness until we die.

Paul Stevens, let me encourage you not to think of yourself as a Dog, a Donkey or a Monkey, but see yourself in the finished work of Christ’s image right now - experientially. You are not “experientially” a stupid Donkey and at the same time, “positionally”, a smart kings kid. God has perfected you (see my writings on this board on “Variable quadrant behavioral scale”).

One last thing – Grace is not (as you make it) an entity to worship, and some “thing” you try to embrace and live-up to. The believer is always in Grace, because it was the provision of the cross that secures and guarantees the believer an abiding place in that Grace. Grace is the geographical will of God for the believer. Grace is where they live and abide at all times. Grace is the will of God, and Grace is the place.

Paul and Carl need to get their grace facts right and stop preaching a shabby substitute for it. If the believer is not correctly oriented as to who they are “in Christ” they will always be praying and looking and studying, and fasting, and working to show them selves approved, through some external behavior, rather than resting in the approval they have within the Grace of Gods freedom and liberty.

Paul always speaks of being humble enough to accept the word of god without private interpretation. I challenge him on this to take his own advice. Although when he speaks, it is always counsel for someone else and not himself, (even though he says it is) and deceives himself. He looks at himself in the mirror and leaves the same as he was – self delusional.

Martin L.

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Martin,
I heard Grace Hour today and you have twisted things completely. For one, you make it sound like P.Paul was threatening people not to say anything against Steve or his dad. In reality, he was addressing, quite calmly, the issue of people saying that he and his brother are at odds. Which they HAVE said, over and over, just on this board, and I'm sure in person to both of them also. P.Paul said that he and his brother work out whatever differences they have privately, and it is a family matter. So, he said, don't approach him hoping to gain favor by "information" on something about his brother, or you might get a reaction you are not looking for. It was not said in a threatening way and did not imply violence in any way.
You need to get a life, Martin. I'm sure you will have a 3 page response to this also.

SJ

[Dave (4.156.15.150)]

1Thes 5:23 (KJV)

>>>
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God
your whole spirit
and soul
and body
be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
>>>

I wonder if their are blameless spirits manifesting through the souls and bodies of GGWO Christians,
yet the souls and bodies through whom these spirits are manifesting,
are not entirely blameless at this particular time.


Dave

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

SJ

First off i don't think using Grace Hour as a venue for messaging to the outside world is a professional use of listener supported money. I don't care how calmly he speaks, he hesitated when talking to Steve on the air and almost apologised for saying anything because he knew he shouldn't and said it anyway. Steve seemed to think it was alright to say it because he didn't tell Paul to perhaps keep it off the air. They probably talked about it privately.

If Paul has a message to a select few who come to him privately, then he should be speaking to them and not trying to teach the listening audience and demonstrate his own personal feelings to the nation. Neither should he use the pulpit for such statments without giving equal time to the opposing voice ( f he really wanted to be fair about it) Paul and Carl do not play fair. This is what "cohersion" and "manipulation" is all about. The subtle , subliminal, disarming, and see if we can get away with it mentality.

You discernment has been clouded by your need to balance my post. This is what is compulsively and habitually done by many at GGWO.

The principal here is that the liberty Paul takes to address someone who irks him, is the same liberty Carl Stevens takes when he has a audience and is preaching and them brings up some trifle personal issue which concerns no one but he and the person he was bothered by. It is a tactic that is sent as a message for future or hypothetical confrontatiuons which may or may not occur.

Paul's jist of his "message" was to say to "those" who may decide that the sharing of secrets, or opinions to him about his brother or dad, for the purpose of gaining trust or favor would backfire, and get "unexpected results". Who care except those who may try to get away with this in the future> Paul should handle this in a personal level and not make it into a doctrine.

Paul is saying in essence: see folks, I do not want to hear any "evil" report from anyone and I am an example of how to handle this. I am being a good brother and son. What my Dad says and my brother are family matters and we deal withg it behind "closed doors" as a family matter privately. This is how you should also. I am PASTOR Paul( how about Paul, a pastor). Therefore by honoring my authority , you honor God and you will be blessed. If you dishonor God and talk to me about something I do not like you may get blessed by "a reaction you might not expect" This my friend SJ is a threat! That's how I see it. The double message is not far under the surface of many innocently made remarks. Listen closer my friend.

By the way - I do have a life and I am not afraid to enjoy it.


Martin L.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.146)]

Has anyone tried to call Grace Hour for feedback on Factnet from the "horses mouths" ?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

You would never make it to the air. You could pretend to have an on topic question - lying to the enemy? At that point it would depend on whether or not there was a delay. After that the "kill switch" wouldn't be far behind. It would be interesting, though.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Food for thought:

Todays Grace Hour message is a hallmark of dualism if I ever heard one. I did not get the title but it was Carl Stevens speaking on his doctrine "the finished work".

Amazingly he said that: "(the Christian) is free from death, and completely free from sin no matter what people say about it." That sounds exactly like what I have been trying to explain is the truth from 1st John 3.

BUTT (and I mean a big But), and On the other hand... Carl clearly teaches that one who is Born of God sins (contrary to 1st John 3:3-10) Who's right? Pastor Apostle John, or Pastor Stevens? When one can finally agree with Carl on one thing, he changes it with the next words out of his mouth.

Stevens says that a believer must have his (daily) sinful behavior washed on a daily basis to keep current with righteousness and their positional identity.

According to Carl Stevens Christians who "wanna-be" righteous and holy saints, need to "appropriate" Gods provision by repentance and changed behavior, or are they stuck in "sin-jail". When playing the Carl Stevens Monopoly Board Game of positional truth or consequences. Don't pass Go, and don't collect 200 dollars until you pick a "get out of Jail" card!!

I think not! There is more substance to Christianity than that!

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Carl Stevens falsely teaches that a person must seek and follow the will of God in every area of their lives in order to keep them selves and direct themselves along the path of Light.

The realization of the will of God is achievable through behavior modification and good decision-making, following every word of God, and through self determination to obey God.

Within Stevens' world, the believer/Christian is a sinner with a fallen sin nature, and an "Adamic" side of their personality called the flesh. Accordingly, Stevens teaches that the "fallen will" of the believer must be submitted to the cross, by coming under the authority of the Pastor/teacher (Him or one whom he endorses in GGWO), and by participating in all "pulpit" endorsed activities of his Church.

This exercise of "self-cleansing" by staying in, abiding in, and remaining in Christ is rewarded with blessing. (Based on the Levitical "those who obey will be blessed, those who don't will be cursed - blessing and cursing" The believer (according to Stevens) must choose life (according to this false Old Testament era teaching) in order to live. Stevens' "Christianizes" this teaching with that of the Apostle John in 1st John ,that states to unbelievers that they must walk in the light in order to have fellowship. Stevens applies this teaching to unbelievers to believers. The false dual message becomes one in which the believer is told they must walk in the light and choose light rather than darkness in order to be blessed in Grace. THIS IS WRONG !!! Think about it. Doe’s this sound ”Finished Work” to you. It is according to Stevens. This is why I call Stevens brand of “The Finished work” – Unfinished! It is contradictory and illogical to true Grace, although he would tell you otherwise.

Carl Stevens falsely teaches that a person must seek and follow the will of God in every area of their lives in order to keep them selves and direct themselves along the path of Light.

The realization of the will of God is achievable through behavior modification and good decision-making, following every word of God, and through self determination to obey God.

Within Stevens' world, the believer/Christian is a sinner with a fallen sin nature, and an "Adamic" side of their personality called the flesh. Accordingly, Stevens teaches that the "fallen will" of the believer must be submitted to the cross, by coming under the authority of the Pastor/teacher (Him or one whom he endorses in GGWO), and by participating in all "pulpit" endorsed activities of his Church.

Human behavior within the New Creation is a science of perfection and holiness, without which no man can see God. Grace is the provision of that Grace that enables one to experience the fullness of Christ now, in the beauty of the Sinless ness and Holiness and righteousness that God has willed the believer to be "IN HIM".

One who is born of God "IS THE WILL OF GOD" otherwise they could not be a part of the Body of Christ and "the mystery" that was hidden but is now revealed in us - "Christ in you - the hope of Glory".

THE WILL OF GOD IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE BELIEVER SEEKS –
IT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE !!!

Again I say that for the believer; The will of God is not something that you seek, it is something that you are !!”

The believer also never needs to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, because they are part of the actual Body of Christ and are the righteousness of God “In Him”.

Also along those lines, why would one have to “Go” to Church, when they are the Church. How can one go to something that they are?

The term “we are” is the experiential confession of the believer. We are complete in Him. That is “Bible”. Accept no substitute – everything else is “Bable”, it is another Gospel, and believers are warned to watch-out for it and not get sucked-into it – even if it comes out of the mouth of an “angel”.


Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Did anyone hear Carl Stevens "massage" on "feet washing" yesterday on Grace Hour?. Was that for real? Wow, wow, and wow, wow,wow,wow,wow!!! .......wow!

Listen carefully, and concentrate as I speak and repeat after me:

"Foot washing, as Jesus taught, is the catagorically Biblical "massage" doctrine at work in its practical application and assimilation by the believer priest in the Devine premise of love and in the humility of the greater grace principal of unconditional, retroactive forgivness, in the finite realm of time, within the framework of eternity.

wow,wow

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Anonymous (4.139.90.11)]

65.
Shut up Dog!

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

The point of foot washing, as I understand it, is that it is not meant to be a tradition, or ceremony of bathing to show humility. When Jesus did it - it was. He used the most concrete way to show he was a servant and was on equal ground as far as behavior was involved. The message was the servant is not above the master. If the servant could not do what the master did, he had no part with him. The master had no agenda then to serve out of love; that is what the true servant of God does. Jesus could have done anything a servant would do to make his point.

In today’s world, foot washing has no practical relevance as it did in Jesus’ day. The feet of visitors to a home were washed by servants so that the stink of them did not disturb others; feet in those days were full of crap from the streets. It was a courtesy of hospitality to do such things for your guests. It was a dirty, smelly job. Today it would be considered a luxury one might get at a Day Spa or Podiatrist.

For Stevens to make this into some hyper-spiritual exercise to fellowship with God and as part of a walking in the light activity, he does so as his own ideal. Yes Jesus did it, but we are not trying to copy Jesus are we? To be more like Jesus is an illusion. The believer is like Jesus because they are clothed in his righteousness, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Much of Carl Stevens “imagery” as concerning the things of God is human, and earthly, and sentimental to incorrect understanding of context. This is but another one of those subtle spiritual examples that, if followed, is spiritual hypocrisy.

The foot washing of Dogs feet may be a more appropriate humilty.

Martin L.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Back to the subject of Grace Hour bloopers if you dont mind...
Who remembers when Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart called in Grace hour in November 1988 after he had been busted with a hooker and it made national news. He and Stevens had a talk about grace and being persecuted. Politics or Greater Grace Christianity makes for some strange bedfellows.
And then.... 2 years later Swaggart was busted again with another hooker. What did he and Stevens talk about off air? Trade tips for not getting caught?

[Anonymous (4.139.18.108)]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "Disgrace Hour..."?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Much more descriptive.

[Dave (4.156.90.249)]

Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:13 am
Anonymous (152.163.253.102) said:

>>>
Who remembers when Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart called in Grace hour in November 1988
after he had been busted with a hooker and it made national news.
>>>

I heard The Grace Hour, when someone claiming to be Jimmy Swaggart called in.

I was never sure that the voice was actually the voice of Jimmy Swaggart,
and it seemed to me that the caller who claimed to be Jimmy Swaggart,
was cut off before he was finished talking.

Anonymous (152.163.253.102),

Do you recall, that the caller who said he was Jimmy Swaggart,
offered all sorts of praise for Pastor Carl Stevens.

At this particular time period,
before this call,
I recall that Pastor Carl Stevens manifested a very forgiving spirit towards Jimmy Swaggart.

Dave

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

When Paul Stevens speaks on grace, he has said publicly, on numerous times; referred to King David, that he was a "Christian". Carl Stevens has taught for years that David was a man after Gods own heart, and that knew the nature of grace (while living under the Law). Somehow this has been made into a doctrine to justify outrageous behavior. Talk about confusion. If they think David was a Christian, then Moses and Noah and Adam and Eve were. These kinds of statements are unlearned and ignorant of theological expertise. Carl Stevens taught that stuff for years and still does.

I suspect their fascination and identification with David as a man of God was that he was able to make his peace with God after adultery with Bathsheba. She was the "little lamb" he decided to murder for and compromise his power to have... and he did. They had a love child in that adulterous relationship, and justified it because of Grace. Carl has always used this doctrine of David as his "ace in the hole", and I suspect he will go to his grave under that delusion. His family was screwed-up.

If this is Grace, stop the world, I'm getting off.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

During one part of Paul Stevens massage on prayer today, he quoted the verse "the fervent prayer of a righteous man, availeth much."

Too bad this has nothing to do with a true finished work believer.

Paul commentates that God especially, or really listens to those who are "tuned-in" to God (who are submitted and obedient, faithful, and surrendered to him).

Therefore Paul’s (incorrect) definition of "righteousness" is behavior oriented, and God is behavior motivated and obligated by his word to really avail for them because they are so,oooo... good.

This is a doctrinal blooper that belongs on the Gong Show.

We (as believers) are the righteousness of God "IN Christ". We have all things that pertain to Life and Godliness, through this knowledge. The believer is complete and lacking in nothing (in the area of righteousness area). God acts towards the believer based on what he has made them to be, not based on what they presume to attempt to become!

Come-on Paul - get with the program - The "true" finished work Gospel is based on the sufficiency of Christ and upon HIS faith; we just receive it.

One does not "seek" for something they already have. The Christian does not seek first the Kingdom of God; they are "In Christ". This concept is Old Testament and was spoken to Jews by Jesus, who were under the Law. We, as believers, are of the "New Creation" old things have passed (our unrighteousness), and all things have become new, and perfect, and complete, and finished.

God hears the prayers of his children, and needs no other motivation than Love to do so.

The Blood of Christ makes the believer Right, and not behavior. That is Finished Work

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Steve Stevens said in today's Grace Hour pre-recorded message that: "It took David finding out how wicked Saul was in order for him to get to know Jesus Christ".(speaking about wilderness experiances)

I did not know that David knew Jesus Christ. He was not even a Christian; was he?

The error lives on.

[Jack Brown (70.16.7.163)]

Martin:

Don't let this go to your head but I'm just beginning to like some of what you say. We might even be able to converse sometime. I just need to discern whether it's letter-learned zeal and natural wisdom or real life. I'd like to think it's the latter.

Keep it up. You're showing some good signs. I really mean that.

Jack

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Jack - I'll take that as a reserved compliment, Thanks.

- it once was said: "the one who dies with the most toys... wins.

Here is Another Blooper today before I forget.

Steve Stevens said that: "Time is our (the believers) opportunity to prepare for eternity."

Didn't JESUS already make us fit, and holy, and acceptable to God? What more can we "add" to that? We are already entered into eternity because we have eternal life NOW.

The song Bible Speakers used to sing at almost every service goes like this: I can see Ron Kelly up front in grand form.

"We're Complete , complete , complete in him, we are complete in him - hallelujah. (repeat)

1- It's not by works of righteousness but by his grace alone (repeat 3 times)

2- There's nothing more that I can do 'cause Jesus did it all (3times)

3- The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelleth in our lord (3 times)

and WE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM !"

Isn't that one of Carl’s songs along with Forgiven, Forgotten and Gone forever, the Blood of Jesus takes care of me. Christ now is my life and my sins they are buried in the deepest, deepest sea..."

I dare to believe those things!!!!!!!!!!

however....

just in case... the commercial for Doctrine weekly
By Scott Robinson is like an add for Geritol. If you've got poor blood and are not really yourself... you are in a bad "position".

Get your Doctrine (indoctrination)Weekly so you will have strength and energy, and spiritual vitality; be prepared to know how to answer God at the Bema Seat when you get to cash in your rewards... guaranteeeeeed! No refunds though.

... be careful, you may find yourself cashing in "monopoly money" instead.

I think this stuff is plain spiritual ridiculousness.

Martin L.

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

Martin,
Re: your 11:43 am post

David might not have known the Lord as Jesus Christ, but he did know the Lord, he was a man after God's heart. And Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.....He was still very much alive and real to the people of the Old Testament even though they did not know Him by the name of Jesus. Are you saying the God of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ are two different Gods?

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

SJ -

I am saying that the salvation experiance on the old tesatament is different for them than it is for we who are the body of Christ. David was not born of God and part of the Body of Christ. His salvation was different, and his relationship with God was different than ours "IN Christ" Thats All.

David was not filled with the spirit. He knew God afar-off. His sins were covered, not put to death as are the sins of those who recieve Christ.

God speaks and acts in various ways throughout history. In these last days he has spoke throgh his Son Jesus Christ.

The old testament believers were not The Church, and the church is not a type of spiritul Israel. Carl Stevinism mixes this-up.

David was a man of God, but he was not complete like we "IN Christ" are.

And yes the old testament believers were not saved in the same sense that we as the church is. They're were many Gospels of Good News that existed in Old Testament, but there was only one Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We have a more perfect relationship to God than David. Think about it.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.188.20)]

Martin, This idea that people in the Old Testament were not at times being filled with the Holy Spirit is just Stevens bunk. Go back and read about the school of prophets, where Saul prophesied; and later when he was seeking to kill David, it happened again. He went right back to trying to kill David afterwards, but for the moment he was repentant. The Spirit put him there. Ask Cordell about this one. Bob

[SJ (149.174.164.83)]

Bob,
Actually I don't think they could be filled with the Spirit in the Old Testamanet but the Spirit just came upon them. The Spirit couldn't actually indwell anyone till the sins were paid for on the cross

[Anonymous (69.67.254.38)]

Martin, As far a Steve saying that David knew Christ, I'm ok with that. Judging from the number of pre-incarnate appearances or theophanies which many scholars (including covenant and dispensational) agree could've been Christ.

I do agree that the Salvation experience was different in the OT than in the church age.
The Holy Spirits ministry to the believer is much different.

PG

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

The issue here is that Salvation for them was different than for us. Sins were covered then, because it was impossible for the blood of Bull and Goats to completely deal with sin. They were saved by those sacrifices, but their salvation did not put them into the Body of Christ as the Church has the unique priveledge of having.

They sought after righteousness and the Kingdom of God. We (Believers)do not because God is in us and we in Him. There is a distinction. They are not any less saved than we, they just have a different relationship with God in their salvation than we do.

"Different strokes for different folks, and so on and so on and scoobie doobie do wah...." (the gospel according to Sly and the Family Stone)

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Anon, 4,139 said:

"Fake crying accompanied by pointless basketball stories and living vicariously in the past" as a description of Grace Hour antics that disgust them.

My take:

This belongs on Grace Hour bloopers. In fact I'm going to post it because I heard the fake crying on Mondays broadcast and forgot to mention it then.

The correct terminology (according to Carl) is "Devine Brokenness" and it has been taught by Carl (addressed to wanna-be pastors) that any pastor worth their salt should, in a moments notice, be able to "feel" and outwardly express the emotion of brokenness. Some are better at doing this than others.

When it is real, it may be a valid expression that conveys something that words don't to the listener, however, when used as a "tool" of preaching, its as fake as a three dollar bill.

The basketball thing is another issue along with the Red Sox’s commentary so often heard on Grace Hour. But the Stevens boys will be boys. Basketball and baseball is a tradition that goes way back to Lenox.

The preoccupation with the past, as in "war stories", is ”filler" that is used when there is nothing left as real and meaningful content to say and express. It is the Stevens boys’ way of adding "weight" to the argument that they have "it" and Carl's brand of Christianity "is it" and no one could argue with that... could they?

When the heat is on - they start cooking their favorite recipe... dumplings!! ummm ummmm good!

Martin L.

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

Let's face it: When you listen to Grace Hour you quickly realize that the Stevens boys, Paul and Steve, are often very immature and insecure.
In the case of Steve I think he's really looking to discover God and God's purpose for his life and let's give him grace to grow, but he shouldn't be on the air.

In the case of Paul, well, he can't handle a challenge well and he apparently thinks that he's the ultimate authority on bible doctrine except for his dad. And while he's done Grace Hour for a very long time, if he weren't a Stevens he wouldn't be on the air.

Just as there are probably some 500+ "pastors" at GGWO Baltimore HQ alone, these two guys are "pastors" by title only. Paul is starting a church in Havre d'Grace (Maryland) and now he may very well become real a pastor in position.

Compare the Grace Hour program with real Christian programs like for instance on CSN ( http://csnradio.com ) then you quickly realize the difference and the rather Christian approach on such stations in comparison to the "show" on Grace Hour.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Grace hour got an award of excellence in Christian programming - golden angel award or something like that. Is that like a gold watch they give you when you retire?

My main gripe about this nonsense is that millions of dollars go into this "entertainment" venue and could be better put to serve a real need instead of massaging the egos of those that host it , and those who call to endorse it and get the reward of agreement.

For example, the contrast of Dobson’s radio broadcast, that has some real content and preparation and research, and Grace hour are light years apart. They are professional and have content, and don't make it up as they go, and don't carry on personal jokes and hidden messages in the misuse of donor’s money.

I guess as long as people are willing to pay for this, it must be what they want. Its like a quick happy meal, and you get a prize (reward) in every bag.

The only way I can endure it is with a purpose to expose the lies, but even then I can't believe what I am hearing and get outraged by it.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Pastor Stevens’s prerecorded message today dealt with the Putting off of the Old man, and the putting on of the new.

I object!!!

On the surface it looks good and sounds good and is in the Bible, the word of God - what’s wrong with that? Don't we have to live by every word of God and esteem it of more necessity than the very food we need to eat? Yes. but...

Here is the problem under the surface of Carl's convincing words:

This message preached by Carl Stevens on the “putting off the Old man” in Ephesians 4:17-32 was not addressed to the Christians in terms of their new Christian behavior, but was a reminder to them of the thing that they had done in accepting Christ in the first place (when they were unbelievers).... Hellooooo!!!!!!!!!

Somehow, Pastor Paul the Apostle, thought they were forgetting the basics of what Christianity is – to Love as Christ had loved. That’s the point. We should be doing something different than the world – yes, but that something different is because we are different, and not because we try to be different.

Vs 20 is connected to vs. 22 in that Paul is reminding the Ephesian Believers that the behavior of Christ is the opposite of what the (unsaved) Gentiles. He is reminding them to live worthily to their calling in Christ and not in the unworthy futile behavior of licentiousness, greed and every kind of uncleanliness that is the “sin” and reason for their alienation from God. He never warns them to not “sin”. He does remind them that unsaved behavior (sin) which is not brought to Christ will be judged as such by God. Eph 5:5 is a reminder to them that the sinful behavior of unbelievers (such as sex outside of marriage, idolatry (other Gods) will be met with Gods wrath, because they are “sons of disobedience (children of the Devil). Believers are not Children of the devil, and as Children of God should not do those things that the sinner is condemned for.

Paul was trying to remind them that when they repented of sin, that they changed the direction of their lives, and that they made a break with the things that the Gentiles do in the darkness of their minds and in their ignorance.

When one repents, they are acknowledging their ignorance of sin, and Christ forgives them. This message is what they should have learned assuming that they had heard of Christ in the first place – and the truth that is in Jesus (no falsehood in Christ).Eph 4:20-21.

The point is Paul was describing the thing that they HAD done as an UNBELIEVER in accepting Christ. They HAD put off the old man, their former manner of life, in which they were deceived into wanting all that is not of God; they were to “put on Christ” (the new man and the second Adam). This is the new nature of their true identity as believers. The fruit of it should be love. If they hadn’t done that then they would not have been saved!

These believers are reminded that they were created after the likeness of God (not sinners), that they were truly righteous and holy in that new identity. Ephesians 4:23-24.

How could they possibly justify living in any other manner than that? That is why Paul teaches in Eph 4 ; to live worthy (ch 4 :1), to be imitators of (ch 4:1), to be careful (Ch 5:15), be subject to one another (Ch 5:21), and to Be strong in the Lord (Ch 6:10).
I am reminded in Romans where Paul admonishes those who might take liberty with the grace of God, that God Forbid -how can we, who are dead to sin, live any longer in it? We can’t!

The flesh speaks of all unrighteousness, which the believer was made clean from. The Jewish religion was one that was "in the flesh: External adherence to laws and regulations and commandments, without a real change in heart and life. This is why Jesus said (to the Jews, that he came to bring life, and more abundantly.

If as Stevens says that the believer is still a sinner, and sins, and if that believer is "in Eternal life" as God had spoken, then either they will die in their sins, or will take them to heaven in them because they will be forever sinners. This is a false teaching.

Christ will be presenting his Church, as spotless and clean and holy (which they are) to the Father. That is something he will be proud of. Christ will not be presenting to the Father a church of dirty, filthy, horrid little sinning children that need a bath!

Christ has made us clean. The vessel is clean!

What Say Ye?

Martin L.

[Anonymous (69.67.254.38)]

If as Stevens says that the believer is still a sinner, and sins, and if that believer is "in Eternal life" as God had spoken, then either they will die in their sins, or will take them to heaven in them because they will be forever sinners. This is a false teaching.

Martin...I'm confused about your post here.
Can you rephrase this?

I know he teaches the dual nature principle. Which I agree with.
...you know saints do sin.
1 Jn 1:7,8
of course we do....if we confess OUR sins....etc,,,
1 Jn 2:1 if anyone sins, WE have an advocate etc...

I'm not takin you to task here, just asking for clarity.

PG

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

PG -

Over 60 times in the Books of the Bible called the New Testament, the word "Saint" is used to describe the Believer. They are saints - affirmative and experiential, not positionally as Carl (and many others incorrectly teach).

Since the definition of saint (Greek word usage)is holy and cleansed and pure one, I am compelled to believe it! Identity "In Christ" is at issue here. This is part of what I call the true finished work.

I am more and more persuaded that the translators of the Bible did not take this fact as seriously as it needs to be taken, otherwise words would not have been skewed in their meaning towards some type of "positional" interpretation that most of the Church adheres because.

See what I have written on 1st John and Romans in my summary thread. I have been addressing the very issues you are concerned with. It contradicts what you have been taught, but it brings perfect unity to the identity of the believer "IN Christ" and reconciles the seeming contradictions, and brings a deeper dimension to the Glory of the finished work gospel. As Pastor Apostle John says in 1st John 3- "one who is born of God is not able to sin." I actually makes much sense once you see the connection (as I have taken the time to already explain)- until then it will seem heretical. I assure you it is not. It is worth the effort to see this one through; it is a real treasure and the key to being set free from the error of Carl Stevenism. Inquiery is the fertile ground of discovery - keep it going.

Just my humble opinion.

Martin L.

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

First of all, you sir, have no idea what I have or haven't been taught. I will continue to use a respectful and loving tone in this exchange, hoping it will be reciprocated.

The word for saints is not limited to mean, holy and cleansed and pure one...as you assert.
The word is Hagios and means - consecration, sanctificaton, holiness...septuagint uses it like: set apart. (Amos 2:11, cf:Judges 17:5...God raising up and setting apart for a prophetic line)
Just as the articles in the tabernacle, set apart for a specific person or use.
It is the same root word used for sanctification.
2 Thess 1:10 uses the word along with 'those who believe'.
It is actually used 62 times in reference to the believer, For the sake of not creating an excrutiatingly long post...often of the believer who is weak, and yes sometimes in spiritual trouble! see 1 Cor 1:2!
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9) and then placed in Christ (over 150 X's in the NT)
It is a static and unchangeable placement into Christ.
We are declared saved and saint in Eph 1:1
All believers are saints 1 Cor 1:2

Sancitification can be progressive. We all grow, we all make mistakes...believers sin!

Do they then lose their salvation? No they don't they are disciplined by an intensely loving heavenly Father!
Heb 12:5,6...why then would the Father have to chastise his own, if they did not sin????
If we sin (1 Jn 2:1) and we may (1 Jn 1:7,8)
we confess (homologeo - maybe:operate in obedient agreement)

So, this idea of the saints not sinning is not right. They do. Unfortunately.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Ok - You win

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Thanks...glad you see it my way! lol

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

PG, you have accomplished what so many before you have tried and failed

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Very easily too...just one post! ha

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

we are all VERY grateful!

Can you work on Dave next?

[Dave (4.156.84.102)]

On Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:59 pm
Anonymous (64.12.117.20) said:

>>>
we are all VERY grateful!

Can you work on Dave next?
>>>

Dave asks:

Where can I get an accurate copy of "the Word of God" in the English Language.

I would like an English copy of "the Word of God"
that all the Pastors of GGWO support 100%.

Dave

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

I'm Baaaak...

Question?

Can sinners serve in the tabernacle? No! Tabernacle vessels were pure 100% Gold, nothing less in quality would be acceptable. That’s what God required.

The wages of "sin" is death. How could a Christian be a sinner and be "IN Death" at the same time they are "saints" and are Holy and Blameless"?

Can a sinner (an unclean thing) be the vessel that bears the very holiness and righteousness of God? NO!

If God hates sin, does that mean that God hates his children because they are sinners? NO!

In God there is no darkness at all.

He who says he is of God and yet walks in darkness is deceived and the truth is not in them.

Is there darkness in Christ? NO!

Is there sin in Christ. No!

Is one who is born of God in Christ? Yes!

Is one who is In Christ part of the very Body of Christ? Yes!

Is there sin in the Body of Christ? NO!

Paul in Romans says "God forbid" how can we who are free from sin live "any longer" in it (in the futurative sense)? They can't - it is impossible.

Sin was crucified at the cross for everyone who believes. Therefore as the Apostle Paul says - we are to recon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ.

What part of Dead don't you understand PG?

You (the old man of sin and the sin nature)is dead in Christ, and your "life" (your existence from that time forward (future aggressive affinitive)is hidden with Christ in God.

I, for one do not and will never again view myself as a sinner "in Christ". If you want to continue as a sinner, thats your choice, but you do so in error.

One final thought to your conviction that you are a sinner now that you are his dear Child:

It's ok, and don't worry, because if thinking oneself as "not a sinner" is a sin, then God can even forgive that!


Here's a song that says it all about the confusion of the"Christians are sinners" message.


I STILL GOT MY SIN BLUES – by Homer and Jethro

Why would God make me a New Creation
And yet forget to take the sin out of me?
I think he wanted to set me free,
But forgot to leave the key
Me Oh My – in my sins I might die
I’m not really sure
I hope God won’t lead me to them Pearly Gates
and then refuse to open the door

I don’t know what’s the matter with Him;
To do this thing to me
He said I was forgiven,
But why’s He keepin’ a record on me?
I once was dead in my sins – so bad
But now I’m alive – and all my sins I still have!

Forgivn' – Forgottn' – and Gone Forever….
But all my sins are hangin’ on
And they’ll be there ‘til I’m gone…
I got the blues

Martin L.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Dave,
With all due respect, you should listen to what Pastor and other preachers say in context. If they believed or tried to convey in any way that KJV was a 100% accurate translation of the "Word of God", there would never be a reason to refer to the Hebrew and Greek in their teaching and preaching.

Let's face it. Preachers need props.
I pasted the following from the GG website statement of faith and I think it is still printed every week in the bulletin:

"All Scripture contained in the Old and New Testaments is verbally, plenarily, and inerrantly inspired by God. It is the authoritative guide for all Christian understanding, life and ministry. We believe in the exact equivalent method translation from the original languages."

I have no opinion on the Jehovah issue. I recently googled it and found several sources and opinions on both sides of the issue. Pastor has thoroughly communicated his convictions on the Jehovah issue as well as the Holy Ghost issue. I have not personally studied either one in any depth and perhaps that is the reason my convictions on these are not as dogmatic as yours or as Pastor's. While it seems to me that ghost is a poor translation, Jehovah is a merely a translation of a name from one language to another so I do not care how it is translated as long as I know Who I am talking about. Perhaps if I thoroughly studied it, I would think differently. I felt the same way regarding Peking in the 70s, but apparently, it mattered enough to some that everyone now refers to it as Beijing(sorry if my spelling is wrong).

I know the above is not the final answer, but it is another opinion.

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Martin!
DRATTS!

Your first question blasts holes in your own argument.

Can sinners serve in the tabernacle?
Yes, and they did. Do we need to go through the whole list.
Sin is aweful, terrible and unholy.

OK Martin, here's the big question. Let's move from theory to reality.

Are You free from personal sin????
Have you stopped lusting, coveting, thinking evil, doubting God (that which is not of faith is what? sin?)

If you can tell me you no longer sin, that would really be something.

We who are in Christ are not.
Abraham believed God and his faith was counted for what? Righteousness. (that's such a beautiful exchaange isn't it?)
God makes us holy (positionally) by placing us in Christ. (150X inthe NT)

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Dave....
Is the KJV a translation, or did Paul write the autographs in the King's English?

PG

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

PG -

Yes, I do not sin positionally nor experientially!

Isn't that something?

You are only reiterating what you have been erroneously taught.

I do not believe you read my explanations yet on the "summary page as this will answer all you have asked as best as I could, and as much as I care to on this subject.

I don't suspect any dialogue will change your mind because it has already been made-up.That's your loss.

Thanks

[Dave (4.156.84.102)]

On Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 09:25 am
Anonymous (68.33.60.157) said:

>>>
With all due respect,
you should listen to what Pastor
and other preachers say in context.

If they believed or tried to convey in any way
that KJV was a 100% accurate translation of the "Word of God",
there would never be a reason to refer to the Hebrew and Greek
in their teaching and preaching.
>>>

Pastor Carl Stevens gave a great "anointed" message back in the 1990's

It might have been titled "This Book".

Pastor Carl Stevens had a King James Bible in his hand,
and early in his sermon he said that the greatest battle is the battle for "THIS BOOK, THIS BIBLE"
[Carl Stevens accented those expressions "THIS BOOK, THIS BIBLE"]

The message continued for about 20 minutes.

Over and over he refered to the Bible he was holding in his hand
[e.g. the King James Bible],
as
[THIS BOOK, THIS BIBLE]

The flesh and blood Pastor Carl Stevens
can't possibly believe that the greatest battle is for "THIS BOOK, THIS BIBLE"
[e.g. the King James Bible he is holding in his hand].

The flesh and blood Pastor Carl Stevens does not believe that God's name is "JEHOVAH".

Forgive if I may be knowing Pastor Carl Stevens after the flesh,
but I do not know how to distinguish Pastor Stevens' spirit from his soul and body.

Dave

P.S.
The above message would have been great if Jack Hyles
[while he was alive]
or Peter Ruckman had given it.

[Dave (4.156.84.102)]

On Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 09:42 am
Anonymous PG (69.67.294.38) said

>>>
Dave....
Is the KJV a translation,
or did Paul write the autographs in the King's English?

PG
>>>

The answer might depend on what date,
and what year,
Pastor Carl Stevens was preaching.

Some days the King James Bible is a translation of the Scriptures, and a good one,
according to Pastor Carl Stevens.

Some days it appears that the King James Bible is refered to as "your bible",
or as "the Word of God"
[e.g. Please open your bibles to Book XX, Chap 1:1,
and let us recite the "Word of God" together.]

HOWEVER ON MOST DAYS GGWO SEEMS TO BELIEVE
THAT THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS JUST
"A NON INSPIRED TRANSLATION OF THE SCRIPTURES"
WHICH IS TO BE DISTINGUISED FROM "THE BIBLE"
WHICH IS THE INSPIRED SCRIPTURES.

"THE INSPIRED SCRIPTURES"
POSSIBLY REFERS TO THE ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS,
ALTHOUGH ON CERTAIN DAYS
THE ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS MAY BE CALLED
"THE BIBLE THAT IS TOTALLY INSPIRED".

I assume that God, at the Bema Seat,
will refer to the Original Autographs as:
"THE BIBLE THAT IS TOTALLY INSPIRED"

My particular King James Bible is a translation
of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of the original autographs,
and Pastor Carl Stevens believes that the underlying Hebrew and Greek of the KJV,
is the most accurate Hebrew and Greek.

Dave

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Well so much for objectivity...
Sinless????

Martin...you are saying you don't sin anymore?

WOW congratulations. The first person besides Christ.

There are little no conventional teachers, dispensational or covenant that would admit such a great accomplishment.

I feel sorry for you.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Some days the King James Bible is a translation of the Scriptures, and a good one,
according to Pastor Carl Stevens.

Some days it appears that the King James Bible is refered to as "your bible",
or as "the Word of God"
[e.g. Please open your bibles to Book XX, Chap 1:1,
and let us recite the "Word of God" together.]


....Dave this is ridiculous.
You need to find a hobby.

Ever pastor I have ever heard will say "open your bibles" to a crowd that is carrying any number of translations in hand...NKJ, KJV, NIV, NASB....bla bla bla

Should they say" ...open you translation this morning so no one is confused about whether or not the version up here on the pulpit is being considered the actual only inspired version or whatever"

[Dave (4.156.84.102)]

On Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 10:46 am
anonymous PG (69.67.254.39) said:

>>>
Ever pastor I have ever heard will say "open your bibles" to a crowd that is carrying any number of translations in hand...NKJ, KJV, NIV, NASB....bla bla bla

Should they say" ...open you translation this morning so no one is confused about whether or not the version up here on the pulpit is being considered the actual only inspired version or whatever"
>>>

I think there should be a large sign in the general vicinity of what GGWO considers the pulpit.

The sign might say:

DISCLAIMER.

WHEN THE PASTOR IN THE PULPIT USES THE EXPRESSIONS:

"THE BIBLE"
"THIS BIBLE"
"THIS BOOK"
"The Word of God"

THESE WORDS DO NOT MEAN THE SAME AS WHAT THEY WOULD MEAN IN JACK HYLES'CHURCH,
WHEN HE WAS ALIVE.

IF YOU WANT THE ABOVE WORDS TO HAVE ANY MEANING,
PLEASE GO TO A KJVO CHURCH.

IF PASTOR CARL STEVENS SHOULD EVER START A SERMON
BY SAYING "THE GREATEST BATTLE IS THE BATTLE FOR "THIS BOOK, THIS BIBLE"
IMMEDIATELY GET UP FROM YOUR SEAT AND WALK OUT.

That disclaimer might help things a bit :-)

Dave

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Dave and PG

The Apostles Paul and John both adhered to the persuasion that One who is born of God is not able to sin. As for the rest of your issues, they are with God, not with me.

This is not the thread for all your debates, no matter how inspired. In all fairness, please go to one or create one that is more appropriate.

Thanks

Martin L.

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Martin...this is a thread for debate, about what Pastor Stevens is teaching.

It is also a forum for open exchange.

The Apostles Paul and John did not teach what you say. Read Ro 7, 1 Jn 2:1,2 w/1 Jn 1:8,8
John DID say...if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves!!!!
Then....if WE confess OUR sins!

HHmmmmmmmmmmm?????? (just joking for emphasis here)

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Its John 3:5-10 says:

"and ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him there is no sin. Whosoever abided in Him sonnet not; whosoever sonnet hath not seen him, neither knows him. Little Children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committed sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this is the purpose the Son of God was manifested: that he would destroy the works of the devil. WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; FOR HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM AND HE CANNOT SIN BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD. In this the children of God is manifest - and the children of the devil... "

[Martin L (65.96.153.178)]

The Apostle John in First John was not speaking to Christians, but rather to unbelievers. Why would he invite believers who are in the light already, to join him and come and fellowship in the light with him if they are already there? This entire book needs to be rethought in its application. Stevens is not the only one at fault on these issues. These people John wrote to and their mindset were rooted in Gnosticism. They thought that God was a mixture of light and darkness. Like Star wars; there was a constant struggle (in their minds) between the dark side and the force of the good side. To Gnostics there was no such thing as sin. Gnostic doctrine did not embrace the concept of offending a Holy God. In such a doctrine a person would need no repentance. There fore redemption and the receiving of salvation and the entering into fellowship would be non existent. This is why in 1st John, John commended these unbelievers, whom he loved and endeared as a father, to come to the light and walk in the light as he is was in the light. He was lovingly evangelizing the lost and misguided in thinking due to false teachings. John (vs. 8 of Chapter 1) was logically explaining that "if we (if one were to say) we have no sin (they would in that sense) deceive themselves and the truth would not be in them. (John was not speaking for himself as a believer to a believer). John should know because he was defending the truth. He who says he is in fellowship and walks in darkness ( does not believe in a sin concept)is a liar. His argument further appeals to them endearingly as dear children to "confess" their sins. That is- adapt as a mindset and accept the personal understanding, and to embrace the philosophy of sin and offence against God. Johns promise was .. if they confess this and adapt this mindset then Christ would forgive their sins and cleanse them from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The offence of sin would be eradicated not by a verbal exercise, but by the Devine decree of God Himself. If one becomes cleansed from all unrighteousness then they are entirely and completely righteous. End of story. In first John 3 5-10 - All unrighteousness is sin, and those that sin are of the Devil. The Devil sinned from the beginning. All that practice (because they are in the realm of the dominion of sin and darkness) sin are of the Devil. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift is eternal life and holiness, and righteousness through Jesus Christ. This is the true "finished" work. Sin separates so therefore it had to be put to death in order for the believer to enter into holiness without which no man can see God. Most of Christianity, as taught by the pulpits of Catholic and Protestant Churches today, err from this fundamental truth, and as such are apostatized from the faith in the sense that they have bought the lie.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

It is taught falsely that Believers have a sin nature and need to constantly battle with it so that they can overcome and live a holy and righteous life.

Many misunderstand the Apostle John, in First John 1 when he explains to outsiders (unbelievers) that they need to fellowship in the light with him and that John’s fellowship was with Jesus Christ, and that in him there is no darkness at all. There is confusion in most Christian's doctrine concerning 1 John, because is it has been erroneously taught and accepted that John’s letter was written to believers - and it was not! John's argument was with Gnostic teachers (unbelievers who walked in darkness and outside of true fellowship with God) who believed that they could not sin. John was in-touch with many unbelievers and leaders who set themselves as authorities in the Church and among Christians. Many of their ideas he outright rejected as false teachings and called them false teachers. These had come in among the believers as “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. Like Paul, he viewed them as spots in their fellowships and Love feasts. They were considered by him as unconscionable, brute beasts that came to spy out their liberty, and corrupt innocent young believers from the truth. He called their teachings “Doctrines of Demons”, and warned believers to not buy-into their nice package of religion - refuting the Gnostic's belief that there was no such thing as sin at all.
The Gnostic’s believed God had both qualities of good and bad, light and darkness, and, like the force in the movie “Star Wars”, could gravitate, both positively and negatively. They were unaccountable to morals and right behavior and persuaded others to be as they were. They justified themselves and their behavior because they had the “truth” in their own brand (X) of mysterious and “secret” knowledge from God. To them, the God of Christianity was an evil God and his son an apparition.

This is why John states (1 John 1:8that those that say: “we have no sin” deceive themselves and are liars, and do not the truth." Logically, without sin there is no need of redemption, without redemption there is no need for The Christ, and without Christ there is no need for God. This is why he persuaded them to come out of darkness and walk in the light. They were not “In Christ”. Since the entirety of redemption is based upon the issue of delivering man from sin. This “no sin” concept these teachers were falsely believing and teaching in this context was dead wrong.

The basis of true Biblical redemption and justification is twofold: First, in order to enter into Christ and become part of His new creation an unbeliever first needs to agree with God - confessing that fundamentally there has been a “missing of the mark” in their life, and an offense against God (sin). To confess is simply to acknowledge and agree with the reality of the sin factor. Secondly, the unbeliever repents from that mindset and turns his life in another direction; as thus he is reconciled to God. He is receiving as an action of trusting in, relying on, and cleaving to Christ. Like a marriage – they become one flesh in the mind of God with Him. Who god puts together let no man put asunder. As a result, it’s a done deal forever God is faithful and just to forgive that person of sin (all, not some) and cleanse them from “all” (not some) unrighteousness through Christ.

In the Book of First John, it should be recognized that John would not say that it is not necessary for a “believer” to be cleansed from “all unrighteousness”, because they already are – completely and without revocation – righteous; they have the righteousness of Christ. The word “Forgiveness” in its original definition meant the removal of the offending thing, to such a distance, that it could never be brought-up as an issue again for all eternity – as far as the “east is from the west”. Why would John be inviting Christians to confess and be forgiven of all unrighteousness, when they had already been forgiven thoroughly and had already been made “righteous” in Christ? That would not make sense, and here is a prime example of the incongruence of bogus ideas, and how religion screws-up the gospel message.

Another ideologically convoluted spiritual rule that has been perpetuated throughout the millennia, is the “rule” that says that: “Only Jesus does not sin”, and that it is impossible for anyone to “not” sin. Yes, it is correct to say that, all of humanity (outside of Christ) is prohibited from being part of The Body of Christ. Since Adam, salvation was extended in various ways according to the justice of God – to Jews and Gentiles alike. Those who were saved were not necessarily sinless, but the grace and mercy of God prevailed as god provided a covering. Yet not all who are saved are the Body of Christ – not all saved people are Christians. The Jews were saved under their commandments, they were forgiven, but they were not Christians, nor were they part of Christ’s body as without sin. The Gentile is saved when they do from conscience what the law of God embodies, even without knowing the name of Christ, but that does not make them the Body of Christ. These “facets” of salvation are an entirely different issue discussed in the Book, and are sure to be an eye-opener.

Never-the-less, Jesus was the first human to never commit even one sin, and this is what qualified him to be the Lamb of God, that could take away the sins of the world. It is entirely another matter to assume that He is the only one since then not to sin. Since the Bible states that He became the first born of many who would follow - once a person enters into Christ, or more correctly, when He enters into them, their relationship with sin ends. They are no longer living within the realm or domain of it, nor could they be subject to it as a separating principal and under its tyrannical authority as servants of it. If it were possible to “continue in sin” as we have previously described, then every time a person sins, a vicious cycle of “confession”, and repentance would need to occur.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

PG and others-

The above explanations have been reposted from my previous conversations and explanations on the subject of the "No-in" gospel that the Apostles preached. We all obviously know all about the "you can sin" gospel that is prevelant within most Churches today. The scriptures you all use are habit and rote. I speak from the position of having understood all that and your every argument for the last 30 years.

It doesn't work, because precious believers live under tremendous guilt and frustration struggling with "sins" and trying to overcome, and buffet the body, and go to the cross, and deny themselves, and fast and pray and resist etc etc. something that should not have ever been an issue in the first place after they got saved - striving and trying to overcome, when all along we have overcome.

You are missing the point of looking beyond the rhetoric. Just suppose for a moment that John was not addressing Christians at the beginning of his First Letter. That would change the message. For Christ's sake, think outside of the box for a moment, and consider a few interesting observations before you try to blow me out of the water with your doctrine. This is not about doctrine - it is about knowing Christ, in whom the riches of his grace cannot be exausted.

What makes you so sure the early Church fathers were so right? Even Jesus deciples did not get it. This is the way it is trying to comprehend the spiritual in a natural manner.This is exactly the type of ignorance Martin Luther came up against.

Fellow Believers "In Christ" - Tear that wall down!

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Martin says .....The Apostle John in First John was not speaking to Christians, but rather to unbelievers

This is a very weak argument Martin.

He uses the word 'we' over ten times in Chapter 1: verses 5-10 alone!

Every commentary I own (there are plenty) would disagree with you.

Name ONE source that would agree with your presupposition that John is not talking to Believers here.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

The Martin said ....Why would he invite believers who are in the light already, to join him and come and fellowship in the light with him if they are already there?

You've interpreted the passage...backwards.

Rather than change the Historical context (isogocic) to fit the text....you should view the text within the framework of the isogocics.

In other words, John is speaking to believers here. Exorting them to live right.

"MY little children, these things I write to you, sho that you may not sin...."

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Yes, by the way I did read what you said about gnosticism....

OK you win

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Martin said on:

Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 10:14 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PG -

Yes, I do not sin positionally nor experientially


'nuff said'

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

PG and others-

Positional doctrine is a contrivance of man trying to comprehend a truth that is incomprehensible. It is actually a compromise of unbelief faithlessness to believe the Devine, judicial decree that has put sin to death for the believer and has given the GIFT of eternal (sinless) life to those that place their trust in, and reliance upon Christ (experience). Neither death not life, nor things present, nor things to come can ever separate us from this gift of Love and the salvation that is not of ourselves and by the will of man. We are recipients of that salvation by grace, which is not of works, least any man should boast.

Yes, my boast is in the lord that has done this marvelous thing for me and I rejoice in that new identity and my inheritance as a sinless child of God, whom he sees as perfect, and complete and lacking nothing. Why would I want to add anything to that with some doctrine of man? If I am to fear error, let me lean to the side of the full promise by faith. The vessel is clean, all other doctrines deal with the outside, God deals with what is on the inside.

The Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ is more Glorious than the "sin-centered" version you uphold. The faith if Jesus Christ is "Incorruptible" - that means there is nothing you can do to mess it up. The believer's identity is not a mixture of sin and holiness; some kind of mongrel faith.

The Faith if Jesus Christ is his faith, it is pure and undefiled. That faith – that “as he is so are we in this PRESENT evil and corrupt world” – is the real substance of the hope of the calling. We are called to be “Saints” – holy and pure and just and righteous, through the faith of Him who saves us from ALL our sin and cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.

You bet I believe it! And you are foolish to continue to keep denying it!

The true work of the believer is to receive what was already finished, completely, unreservedly, and entirely by Christ.

Sin was put to death on the cross. That is a fact, not fiction as your belief supposes.

Respectfully,

Martin L.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Martin,
I will reiterate what I said weeks ago by saying this.

I cannot figure out exactly what you believe because we have a launguage barrier. You may be correct in how you define sin, grace, etc. The problem is that it differs with the rest of the English speaking world. Please, try to clarify your terms and recognize that many might agree with you if they understood you.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Exactly - 68.33.60.157!

If your capable of accepting this Martin, look at how Jesus spoke.
It was in terms his listners could understand . He did not ramble on endlessley on a theological tangent.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Well Martin,

I'm sorry that you feel you have to resort to calling people ignorant...untaught etc....

Can you name one Scholar who supports this version of sinless-eradication?

You're suggesting even beyond what the 'eradicators' teach!

You say "my boast is in the lord that has done this marvelous thing for me and I rejoice in that new identity and my inheritance as a sinless child of God..."

Yes I agree you have a new identity, but this is the result of God placing us in Christ (150X's mentioned in the NT -we should not ingore that)


The claim that you are now free from sin, sinning and evil is just amazing to me.
Repeat it again in other words.....YOU DoN'T SIN anymore????

[PG (66.218.18.149)]

Here's what I think the issue is.

Martin is claiming Pastor Stevens is teaching heresy by teaching 'postional truth'.

OK, Stanford, Chaffer, Ryrie, Pentecost, Wuest, Barber, Pfeffer, Unger, Wierbe, Strombeck etc...all teach this too. Has Martin visited their sites and taken up the mantle as polemicist against them.

Let's here about some teachers who support this 'sin-less' perfection doctrine that Martin purports.

Or let's try another doctrine.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Martin said on the Doctrinal Board "Now I understand that the mere mention of the words
“f--k” would make the average Christian reader uncomfortable....

Very uncomfortable Martin!
Let's clean it up, these ladies on this board don't need to see this and neither do I!

Signed
PG - sinner saved by grace

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Pg –

I can see you are an insincere, and ingenuous person, this is the end of our discussions.

Martin L.

[Anonymous (4.139.18.129)]

Thought this thread was about disGrace Hour? What's with the boring theological debates?
Anyone got an amusing antedote to share?

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

What is up with all the crap on this Factnet board. It's getting worse than Grace hour?

By the way, were there any good bloopers on Grace Hour today? I missed it.

It seems the powers that be play many pre-recorded messages.Does anyone know how many taped messages there are in the GGWO tape library. Who knows what tapes are there and what messages are worth playing? How much does it cost to run Grace Hour each year. How many tapes are sent out on a weekly basis. How many staff members does it take to operate the tape ministry. Who is the tape caretaker? Who even cares?

More importantly - who is in-charge of listening to every message - and editing them? What is the editorial standard and who decides? Does anybody know?

What words of Carl Stevens are permitted to be changed. Who compiles and writes doctrine weekly?

Who does the research for Carl when he doesn't have the time?

Martin L.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

I'll remind you what's worse than Grace Hour, Martin:

On July 19th I asked Martin:


Are You free from personal sin????
Have you stopped lusting, coveting, thinking evil, doubting God (that which is not of faith is what? sin?)

If you can tell me you no longer sin, that would really be something.

He answered this way:


Yes, I do not sin positionally nor experientially!

Isn't that something?

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

yes... i do not? does one negate the other?

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

...yes I CAN tell you.....
(NO) I do not sin

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Martin said above....I can see you are an insincere, and ingenuous person, this is the end of our discussions.


This is the same kind of tactic that you accuse Pastor Stevens of using. Name calling and assuming you know my heart.

It's actually kind of sad.
I have point by point responded to your post, yes that's what this forum is supposed to be about.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Just a brief comment on Jesus' birthday being December 24th... There are no shepherds in Bethlehem in December because it is too cold and it also snows occationally. Also the Romans, being very practical, would never have issued a census in the middle of winter due to the exessive hardship that it would have caused to the people that had to travel long distances walking. No cars with heating existed 2000 years ago... Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Israel would know such a small detail, especially a man who claims that all his messages are annointed...
Lucky me I'm not as decieved as I was before and got out before it was too late.

Susanna

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

It has been mentioned on Grace Hour that December is not the actual birthday of Jesus, but it was made that day by the Romans(?) or some people who worshipped a sun god. It really is not a major doctrinal issue. The real point is that He WAS born and died and rose again

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

The Romans used Christianity and the birth of Jesus as a political tool under Constantine to unite the fractured empire people. They chose to time his birth to occur at about the same time as Saternalia, their equinox festival in December. This festival included the exchange of gifts, the "least being the first" (for a time the servant/slaves and their masters switched roles) and it was another pagan holiday used to embrace Christianity for a politial end.

His ressurection also was placed on the Roman calender as part of the spring fertility festival...hence the Easter bunnies, a left over from the ancient fertility rites.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Did anyone hear grace hour today? The message was "a prisoner of the finished work". Double messages throughout the entire tape.

The most interesting part was the call-in by a man who wanted prayer and wanted to get closer to god.

Dan Lewis - eager to get a brownie point on national radio – strongly forced the issue of having this person say a sinner’s prayer and “repeat after me speech” on the air instead of privately finding out where he was really coming from and being real instead of mechanical.

People, like this caller, who lack understanding and proper teaching often spend a lifetime of guilt thinking they were not children of God, when in reality, they were. They just need to know God has been in them and with them all along - they simply did not recognize him.

It is not honest to take credit for a person’s spiritual birthday by jamming it, especially if they had been born of god, and had not "done", by definition, the sinner’s prayer the way it has been ritualized by Christian evangelism.

How many before had sown seeds into that person’s heart over months and years? I for one do not assume the position of closed head and bowed eyes as the most spiritual and humble, as a requirement of talking to God, and yet this is what we are told.

I am glad to see someone come to Christ, but with their eyes wide open.

Martin L.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Martin,

Brief and well said for once!

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Martin,

Now your picking.
You may want to concern yourself with larger issues. The man was seeking, the program was there.
Did they tell him he needed to work to be saved?
Or did they tell him he would be sinless after he was saved????

PG

[Anon B (205.188.117.20)]

Oh, Martin, s/he is attempting to distract you. Keep listening and keep telling us about it.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Maybe not, PG but I'll bet you they got his name and address off the air so they could find out who in his location could look him up for recruitment.

That's the way it used to work.

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

They did tell him to stay on the telephone so they coud get his name and address so they can send him something in the mail

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Hi Roberta - Do you think it's a good idea to follow-up people when you have a part in their salvation? Especially when their seeking...

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

No problem with follow up at all. In fact I would very much encourage it.

The problem I have is that's not all there is to it. people who are deemed "prospects" are then contacted and part of the follow up is the God led you to TBS, well now is GGWO...and it becomes recruitment. I do not think that part is proper.

This happened to friends of mine. Some were "encouraged" to sell the house, move to Lenox because they were not in God's perfect will...all this after a call to Telephone Time/Grace Hour.

Yes, churches who do not follow up are leaving the converted with nothing, but I think recruitment is a bit over the line. Do remember, I classify this church as cultic, and cultic recruitment is what I see when follow up crosses the line.

Roberta

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

I agree with you.
If recruitment is asking someone if they'd like a visit, or to be involved with face to face fellowship there is nothing wrong with that either.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Here's a good one;

THIS REALLY TICKS MY TOP!!!!!!!

There was a caller who called-in to "Grace Hour" on thursday to give a testimony of how he had gone to visit the Westfield, MA Greater Grace Church where Wayne Hogarth is called Pastor, and was surprized that when he went outside the building (airplane hanger)before service to "pray" alone, and that when he attempted to come back in, all the doors had been "locked" and that the "guards" (that's what he called the ushers) would literally not let him back in. No matter how hard he appealed.The message had started.

Steve Stevens, co host of Grace hour with his father Carl, told the caller that they (the ushers/guards) were probably trying to "protect" those in attendance!!!!! Protect them from what??? Someone who wanted to come in at the "wrong time" I suppose. Here's why I think they think that way:

This was done because of the doctrine of "double honor" in which you do not show-up late for service, and do not interrupt "gods man" while he preaches "god's word" and take a chance of spoiling god's annointing, and interrupt god's people, from hearing gods message, and the lords day, in the lords house,thus grieving the spirit, and chance loosing your rewards and spoiling it for others from getting theirs while they are being obediant to the geographical will of god for their lives at that moment in time.

Also the Ushers are the "doorkeepers" in the House of the Lord and are responsible as a covering to the "pastor" (high priest) to protect him. They are like the Cherobim with their wings spread over the holy place of Gods presence to protect it from desecration.

Desecration in the sanctuary is very bad and is proportional to the sin unto death.

People in westfield actually tip-toe around the sactuary with their heads bowed (I kid you not). Humility is shown through quietness. The fellowship hall is the room within the temple there where more loud and ungraceful behavior is allowed (if necessary)

Spiritually speaking, people that go to a GGWO service in Westfield must "take their sandals off" befoer they enter in to "the holies of holies" there.

"Hogie Boy" is the "High priest" there and comes into the sanctuary only after the singers and elders create an "atmosphere" of the spirit through prayer and song, and the Holy spirit is asked to come into that place and fill it with his presence.(what? he is not there yet, and unless he is asked to be????)

Have they all gone mad????

Never mind, the believer is the Church, not the sanctuary, and they are vessels of the spirit of God , and are filled with him at all times if they belong to Christ (unless you believe in Watchmen Nee'sim).

I say - what kind of God is this they are serving that they have to pussyfoot around and protect from being spoiled??

Praise the "LARD". The "LARD" is good. Bless the "LARD", We love our "LARD" - don't you??

With this kind of Christianity (and this is no joke) you've got to watch your cholesteral levels and blood pressure carefully and regularly so you don't have a heart attack!!!

Martin (ticked-off) L.

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

that sounds like the catholc church i grew up in.. all the hush hushing and ssssssh sssssssshing
the only difference is... they let you come in late and thank the "Lard" for that... yawwwwwwwwwwwnnnn

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Margo -

exactly - the Westfield Church, as had the Old Bubba Speaks in Springfield is filled with a spirit of Catholicism and has always been because of the high number of "ex catholics" that attend there. This is true for much of the Massachusetts ministries, starting with Lenox.

Stevens World is similarly patterened after Old Testament typology of the temple's inner and outer court, its priestly service and sacraments etc. This is real.

I am not badmouthing the Catholics, but their supposedly "dead" and ritualized approach to God is not much different than GGWO. Yes, the trimmings and trappings of their garb and candle burning are not present at GGWO, but their mentality is.

GGWO is a hypocritical system of religion on its practiced level, although they are regarded as orthodox in terms of their "statement of faith"

Martin L.

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

a statement of faith my dear Martin, only holds as much water as its application....
and i think the catholic church, come to think of it might even be a little more fun than GGWO... at least the preacher wears a dress.... you get to light candles and they feed you there.... even tho they are just little styrofoam wafers... they drink REAL wine not grape juice from a welches can, and they have neat pictures in their windows and cool statues.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Margo –

The offence at Stevens’ World hypocrisy is exacerbated by the hypocrite’s claim of being better than and more doctrinally correct than its counterparts - and they are not.

“Stevens’ World” is Brand X repackaged and called "new improved", but like all cornflakes, still tastes like dried cardboard until you put some milk on it to wash it down!

(Still Ticked) Martin L.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Misereatur tui omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis tuis, perducat te ad vitam aeternam.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.155.215)]

Yeah, but they don't have crystals. How can you really live without crystals?

[margo (205.188.117.20)]

martin
if it looks like a duck... sounds like a duck... walks like a duck.... well make a de-duck-tion...probably is a damned duck!

ps dont be too darned ticked off... God is big enough... :o) hugs

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Bob -

They have the "crystal sea" in revelation where Carl and Hogarth and the rest of the mortal servants of God will present the church they have protected and perfected in the name of Christ.

I would be ashamed if you asked me.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Thanks Margo - I'm feeling better, but I've got to go check my blood pressure now. Be back later

Martin L.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Wow Martin,

You are just so smart...like a super-slueth at uncovering such wickedness.
Have you ever visited the church in Westsfield?
I have. As recently as two months ago.
I would like to now give MY testimony.

I arrived at service about 10 minutes early. ...and you know what? People were talking, laughing and enjoying each other's fellowship. Then about 5 minutes before service time, we were asked to prepare our hearts for the Worship time and message.
But no one was walking around in bowed down homage!
For you to say things like "hogie-Boy" are just ridiculous.

But, we all know Martin, that CAN'T be sin from YOU can it?

On July 19th I asked Martin:


Are You free from personal sin????
Have you stopped lusting, coveting, thinking evil, doubting God (that which is not of faith is what? sin?)

If you can tell me you no longer sin, that would really be something.

He answered this way:


Yes, I do not sin positionally nor experientially!

Isn't that something?

... yup Martin - sure is something

[Anonymous (12.183.1.163)]

myfatherplaysdominoesbetterthanyourfatherwhileeati ngnabiscooooo say this in a gregorian like chant, alec.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.155.215)]

Must be nice to be all done with sin. It makes life so complicated.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Petitio principii

[Anonymous (12.183.1.163)]

thats a very good itialian dish,I like it with clamsauce.

[Anon B (205.188.117.20)]

PG, it is obvious that your attempt to distract Martin by baiting him into addressing the sin topic was merely diversionary.

Martin, keep telling us what you know.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

"he that says he is without sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him"

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

Martin Knows nothing of what happened that night, for your information I was an eyewitness. That man was first disturbing the service by Playing juvinile poking games with the person he sat with, during the message. He also got up several times during the service walking around the chapel. When asked to sit in the fellowship hall instead, he refused. He then walked out of the church and ran into the woods. When he returned the service was nearly over and the ushers asked him not to return. He sneaked around to the other entrance and came in the chapel and began mocking that he was singing with the congregation (overexagerated clapping while he looked directly at the usher) After the singing he was asked to leave the premises and he became loud and belligerent. Once outside Pastor Hogarth was very kind to him (even he said so).He refused to give his name even though everyone introduced themselves to him. He then turned and ran to a car that was waiting on the road. He jumped in and they screeched off. The whole thing looked like a set up. Getaway car and all. You can all believe what you want but you weren't there, I was. Martin check your facts before you start spreading unsubstantiated rumors

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

205...that IS the topic

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

good job 24
Anyone car to respond?

[Anonymous (4.155.24.122)]

It's really hard to figure out which thread to post on, there are so many, and they all stray from the supposed main topic.

Did anyone attend service Wednesday, 7/14? There were very obvious problems with Pastor. Among other things, he rambled on about a "funny story" that made no sense, repeated himself, could not manage to get the invitation out although he made several attempts (after a long awkward silence, Pastor R. got up to help him), and forgot about the mike a few times, holding it behind his back. I really felt bad for him.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

The message communicated on Grace hour was as I said for the exception that the caller called the ushers "security guards" to be more precise. I have personally delt with those people and they are like the bad guys in the Matrix.

I'm glad someone was there to enlighten us as to what really happened although the caller seemed concerned enough to call brace hour to complain.

Was the part of the service the "alleged" incident happened (when this unruly individual was playing games), the part where "Hogie Boy" is laughing and cracking stupid jokes for ten to fifteen muinites to break the ice in his usual theatrical manner, or the part where he patronizes all who work so hard to do his bidding like good little Bible Zombies?

Or is it the part, as I have witnessed personally where he tells nice stories and makes up sentimental illustrations in his wispery little voice trying to seem that he has something important to say?

Perhaps the poor gent was bored stiff with the formalities of the service wondering when after an hour of songs and announcements, plays and jokes, that some message will be shared without an apologie from Hogie that he is out of time and needs to end on time so that those who complain won't.

anon 24.31 - your story seems credible but so is mine because I have seen this with my own eyes on numerous times. I'ts a great place to visit for entertainment and child care, but be prepared to endure at least an hour of fluff and filler.

And I sin not by speaking my mind because to speak directly to these imposters (and I have)is a waste of time - they are totally brainwashed and live in the illusionary Stevens' World outreach.

Praise the "LARD"

Martin L.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Martin, your description sounds very accurate and sounds just like Baltimore. The Word of God has left the building!

But, of course, Westfield would be the mirror image of Baltimore. I like your name for Wayne "Hogie Boy" (though in your neck of the woods, they are called grinders) but my name for Wayne is "Stepford Pastor." He has been practicing for the part for years!

[Anon B (152.163.253.102)]

PG - I disagree with you. Martin is commenting on the topic of this thread.

Oh, I get it now.

Martin is not credible (or capable of telling the truth about what he heard) because he believes he is incapable of sin...Roberta is not credible because she feels God calls her have a generous definition of who is a Christian...Faucett is not credible because he is twice married...Bob is not credible because he has a gentle spirit...

Just another one of those underlying messages...

I'm seeing the pattern here...

[Anonymous (12.183.1.157)]

alec,come on out.Quit playing with us!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Yes, Anon B...it is the same old ministry game...

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

NO you know what 152
This kinda 'crap'
the part where "Hogie Boy" is laughing and cracking stupid jokes for ten to fifteen muinites to break the ice in his usual theatrical manner, or the part where he patronizes all who work so hard to do his bidding like good little Bible Zombies...

Is just mean spirited and uncalled for!
Now we're goning to start crying foul on his behalf?
He gives not even 1/2 of a story, gets mean-spirited and insulting, mocking at the least...

bla bla bla bla

[tropicana (12.183.1.157)]

whats his name Kurk Krucorian?Am i close alec?

[dntlookbck (12.183.1.157)]

B.reedy.For you know not the hour which I may come

[Luthervandross (12.183.1.157)]

Just realized who you are.Martin Lawerence.You so crazzzzzzzy yo!

[Bob Brinton (151.203.155.215)]

So PG, are you going to get together with some of the other branch pastors and approach the elders?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Maybe you should do it, Bob. Take Pastor Roberta with you. And Martin L.
Time for action, not just posting!

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

You know martin the more you speak the more you reveal what you dont know. First the building was not a hanger (the airport is across the street) it was a warehouse, but it certainly doesn't look like one now. Next you say the guy was probably bored with P. Hogarth's message or that P. Hogarth was the one being juvenile...P. hogarth didnt even speak that night. he allowed some visiting missionaries to speak... so this guy was the one being rude to visitors. Also if you dont like the way P. hogarth speaks, dont come! you are not a member in the church and have no say. If P. hogarth wants to be silly...he can he's the pastor. if people dont like it they don't have to stay (no one is forcing them) And if P. hogarth' message is all fluff then: 1) why is the church growing and growing and 2)what do you care...if its harmless fluff then it's not hurting anyone.

Sounds to me like Martin has a personal stake here.
What's the matter Martin did you try to push youre doctrine of sinlessness in the church and no one would listen?

if you want people to respect what you say try not o be so personally insulting with name calling.

"Methinks thou dost protest too much!" The "Baahd"

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

My point is that I'm sick of people calling all the fluff and filler "anointed". It's just plain unprofessional and boring and certainly not worth the time to get up early and drive on a Sunday morning to hear when I can be getting more from reading a children’s book on the bible than the stupid comments from the pulpit.

I say don't impinge upon my intelligence and call it Gods message when it is nothing more than a poorly planned "Johnny Carson" show, using the churches money and good will to produce. This is nothing but Lard - greasy, globs of it.

I'm sorry folks - I tried. I am angry but sin not.

Content folks!!! - content is sorely lacking and "Grinder Boy" Hogarth delivers.

I heard, but do not know if it was true or not, that (according to the Church Secretary and associate Pastor there in Westfield) that Hoagie Boy does not have a schedule, no one knows what his schedule is, he comes and goes as he pleases and does "hit or miss" appointments with potential donors. Recently, I heard, a Dr. tried to get an appointment with him to donate $35,000 to the ministry there was put- off by the unprofessional and controlling protocol there. Not being comfortable to deal with such an inaccessible and unaccountable pastor - she changed her mind and decided to give to another organization. Ask Hoagie Boy if this is true whoever you are that cares to defend him. There are so many other things people hear – it makes you wonder if all this is true or that everybody just makes it up.

These guys are playing church at the expense of parishioners. The growth occurs because of successful marketing, and because (like the Jehovah’s Witnesses) there is an organized plan to recruit. It is only a matter of time until that batch is burnt-out, and a new crew of worker bees are brought in to bring home the "honey".

There is a high level of guilt that motivates work for God within this and many other church structures. If one fails to evangelize and witness they are "in sin" and will loose their rewards. Like the Jehovah’s - that is a driving force in all programs.

The truth is that everyday on Grace Hour radio, there is stuff like this going on – there is a lot of damage control behind the scenes. Advice is given freely, like a prescription, on how to be this and do that spiritually, by the very ones who offend, and connive to maintain authority and discipline from the ranks of the abused. People need to start listening instead of accepting everything from the pulpit of Stevens world , as from God.

Martin L.(still ticked-off)

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

make a hogarth thread

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Marty-boy,
I love how you reveal your love for gossip, unapologetic, raw gossip -

"I heard, but do not know if it was true or not"

"I'm sorry folks - I tried. I am angry but sin not." yet so holy you are....

These guys are playing church at the expense of parishioners. The growth occurs because of successful marketing....
Successful marketing? Why that would take - ummmm whats the word I'm looking for....
oh! organization.

But you know that...

you said it yourself - "there is an organized plan to recruit"

But that's not enough...you'd equate any form of gathering people or discipleship to cult-like recruitment.

I'd be willing to bet that there's not a pastor or church for that matter on this planet who could be as perfect as you.

Marty-boy...a 40 second post of yours has more bloopers in it than 40 years of Grace Hour.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

I cannot think of anyone else as protective of Hogarth than Pastor Graziano, who was protoge of Stanbouski, who was protoge of Mawaka, who was protoge of Stratus, who was protoge of Stevens.

They all studied under Pastor WhoFlungDung who preached a message entitled "Full of Sheep"

Martin L

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

Martin L.,
Just curious...if you are so "ticked off" by Grace Hour, and by the services in Westfield, why do you continue to listen and to go?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Martin, don't listen to them, you come across loud and clear to me. I know exactly what you are talking about. You are right on the money! Keep speaking, we are listening. I know, I was there long before Mawaka showed up in Enfield.

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

Martin, (or should I call you Dave or Patty)

First you criticize because GG takes money now because they won't take it!

You say they are so "hit or miss" disorganized yet they have an organized plan.

You say his message is all fluff and no content yet a "high level of guilt" if there is no content how can there be guilt?

Want some syrup with all those waffles!

[Anonymous (12.183.1.163)]

Hes not Dave nor Patty,hes Alec.Not to be confused with Alex [ getting close ]who is on the 4 dead in ohio thread.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Martin L. is Alec Donzi?

And who is Alec Donzi when he's at home?

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

And what does all that have to do with Wall Street the movie?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.165.53)]

And how many apples fit in one I?

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

My interest in Hogarth and the Westfield church, and the Western Mass/Ct bunch is limited to the ignorance I hear about them on grace hour. They just happen to be doing a good job at perpetuating the lie and disguising the hypocrisy.

Anyone who does not have their head in the sand will understand the principals I am talking about.

It’s not about people, but about a system that is perpetuated by the Hogarths of this world. It’s full of fat and needs some trimming.

Say what you will on the technical details - but their “M O” is the same as Baltimore and Lenox. Their breeding does not permit change beyond words.

The GGWO system uses and abuses and Grace hour is a front for the laundering of millions of dollars that should go to the truly needy.

Martin L.

[Anonymous (12.183.1.163)]

66.90.

Pretty astute.Alec Donzi and Wall Street have alot in common.Gorden Gekko and Alec are alot alike.Both good minds,but dont forget how the movie ends.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Surely, I'm not the only one that can see the double message and the illusion of the Matrix of Stevens World.

I am getting sick listening to Grace Hour. I have decided that I cannot police this program alone any longer. I need a taskforce assigned specifically for this purpose and one for Special Op's, and am willing to take recruits.In fact my own health now is in jeopardy from having been slimed with so much Lard on a daily basis.

Who will be the first to sign up?

Martin L.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Martin,
Call Grace Busters

[Gekko (12.183.1.167)]

Hey Bud Fox,Greed is good.Greed is right,Greed works.The 80s were an age of illusion,remember that.Dont trade your morality for money.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Many of my generation remember in Nam, the special Op's in a division would go in and drop some fire in a hole and see what rats came running out.

It's just a matter of time until people in GGWO wake-up to the fire of the reality of truth. When Carl is gone there will be no one near his stature and with his "annointing" to keep the group together. The geographical will of God will change direction to Florida or Nevada as people will scurry to find cover.

Were watching the end of an era. The conditions on Grace hour are reduced to the has been years of days gone by messages in a desperate attempt to hold the network together.

Steve and Paul Stevens are constantly talking about their father in the third person as if he is already gone. Those memories of a brighter hour are being fanned to keep them alive, but things will never be the same again.

There is already a quiet exodus of the heart occurring as people are beginning to pack and making plans to move and searching and praying for opportunities.


Martin L.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Totally wrong chain of pastors, Marty-boy.

[PG (69.67.254.39)]

Martin,
If you think you can be helpful, keep 'policing'.
What is said publically is open for public scruitiny, along with your posts, then - rebuttal.

Although some of your "police work" has been flawed as with your chain above.

Sorry to hear about your health.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Martin L.
KEEP POSTING

Much of what you say can be confirmed by eyewitnesses, myself included, as evidenced by many of the 17 thousand other posts on Greater Grace alone.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Grace Houre at one time was known as Telephone Time. When Shaun Redgate was on,and before that Steve Quinlan, there was actually some inspiring scriptural discussion.
Since then it is just a white mans version of "Barbershop" where 2 or 3 yokels sitting by Carl rant and ramble about opinions, red sox baseball, isolated and out of context bible verses according to Carls special interpretation.
They never accept legitimate discussion of the scriptures without "going to the next caller".

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

198 - On Brace hour that "next caller" thing really bugs me too- especially when the callers are told to call in with their bible questions and testimonies, and get a 3 second shot at it. This is done often.

I have called in and had the volume lowered on me as I spoke so that the answer they wanted to give me could be jammed down my throat. They answer without really listening and before really hearing. They generally do not ask clarification questions because they never intend on giving it!!

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

What is the "golden Angel" award for Religious broadcasting that Carl Stevens recieved, who gave it, and when did he get it, and for what did he get it for?

Martin L.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

We could learn a lesson from "the world" here.

Notice how any canidate seeking national political office is expected to face the questions of a sometimes adverserial media.

Most if not all make themselves accountable in this way. Whether I like the canidate or not I respect the courage it takes to do this.
Other well known pastors and ministers do take this risk from time to time to their credit.

On the other hand Stevens and his clowns have never taken such a leap of faith. In fact they run from any dissenting opinion and never can stand up to the same type of scrutiny that a "worldly politician" does.

[Anon Brief (64.12.117.20)]

Martin, who is this Alec that they believe is you?

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

198.81-

You are so right. Look at the O'rielly no spin zone. He takes those liberal socialists to task on many issues, and many appear on his show and go at it.

He may not always get the last word, but he is a voice of reason in all the insanity of opinions and polls... but that’s his JOB.

It is easy to have a difference of opinion from time to time in an atmosphere of pseudo "acceptance and tolerance" when everyone speaks the same language and has already agreed upon the same outcome. But those opinions like mine or yours that deal with principal issues that differ will always be considered suspect because it is viewed and resisted as descent.

In a healthy environment this descent may be the voice of reason but is never considered because the group is too busy defending its ideals. and trying to control its empire as if it belonged to them exclusively.

That is "Baaaahhhhd" and we are "Baaahhhhhhd" sheepees.

It's not even worth the time talking about any more - as God leads us personally we need only be occupied in our convictions and call and leave the rest to the politicians to have something to occupy their time.

The descenting voice is always assumed as evil in GGWO. You've got to "speak-a-da-language" and say four "hail stevens" of "hail ministrys" as a way to give credibility to what you have to say, and depending on your "pecking order" within the group you will be respected. If you are an "Alpha Male" like Carl Stevens, your authority will stand until you get too weak to keep it, in which case you will get torn to bits when the power play and challange comes. The other males do not like the alpha male having all the females but must fall in order until they get their opportunity.

It's animal kingdom on a human level within a spiritual environment - but it's not all spiritual is it? That's the rub.

[Merlin Olsen (12.183.1.148)]

Alec,sounds like Mutual of Omahaws Wild Kingdom.Go gettem boy.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

As a final perspective - I would say that most people in GGWO are as descent human beings as in most Christian church organizations. Misled and misguided in a few areas yes. Are they evil - no. Do they participate in worldly and sensual behavior at times - yes. Is the system flawless, no, but what organization is?

Do most of those in leadership at GGWO desire to do evil - no. Do they want to love the world and see the lost come to a saving knowledge of Christ - yes.

It is hard to balance an objective opinion that all would agree on since all religion has at its base the presumtion of getting "to" God by what is done, and everyone "does" differently - greater Grace is no exception. In that sense I hate it because Christ came to do the doing and to give the gift of righteousness without mans doing. So as someone early-on told me my beef was not with GGWO but with organized Christianity in general - and they are right.

It just so happens GGWO was the garage where I parked my car for many years - and while parked there - it got stripped and vandalized, and they assume no responsibility for it. In fact - many others had the same experiance.

The discomfort of that experiance will never leave me, but unfortunatel I am surrounded by the memory of that place everywhere I go because I meet those who are now parked there and they feel safe. Good for them. I try to explain my story and they are in total denial. Oh well.

I hear ongoing stories everyday - of people with tremendous guilt and insecurity who swear by their Christian religion - and have no peace with God. There is something wrong. It has been this way as I have observed for 30 years of my lifetime in Christ, and for two thousand of others.

This is the greatest blooper of all - and what I see as Satan's masterplan of Deception.

I wish to remain anonomous because there is always the tendency for people to weigh the integrity of a person by their name, or where they are from, and what Church they belong, and what position within the church that person has - etc. etc. Dispensational, tribulational, apocoliptical, doctrinallinally, and eschetologitically. By so doing they loose their objectivity.

The esteeming others better then youself does not apply to those supposedly in authority - they are exempt to their congregations.

The: "If Pastor so and so says something, then it must be right - they've been in the misistry for 30 years and are faithful etc. etc.

My thread - The False Teachings of Carl H. Stevens" on Factnet has been my take on the abusive religious system - and not exclusively Steven's - he just happened to be the one I have know best.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Hey Folks -

I'm going on vacation for awhile and not sure when I'll be back to chat. I'm sure much will transpire in my absence and I will try to check-in if I am able to.

I don't suspect I will miss much because it seems we are just talking to ourselves here - that has limited value at this point except for us, which is fine, but until these issues get the attention of some type of mediator or GGWO insider who wants to and is in the position to negotiate a truce, it will be us against them.

I will say one last thing for now. I nearly tossed my cookies listening to Brace hour. "Dr" Paul gave his usual prescription to a desperate mother who was pregnant and who's husband has just left her.

For Pete's sake - is there no decent protocol in dealing with a counseling need of such delicate and potentially life affecting decisions as this woman faced.

#1 - why would someone call on the air to discuss such a private matter? and #2 - why would a person who is a pastor attempt to even try to speak public ally with advice on Abortion or Divorce in a few minutes of time, on the air, without really being able to get the kind of accurate information upon which to base some counsel and possibly professional help?

In three minutes the woman went from abortion to not abortion, from not honoring her husband, and honoring god, and Paul saved the day by "helping her". She was so desperate to have someone validate her convictions or lack thereof. Counselors should be very careful in this type of situation.

There is absolutely no common sense nor professionalism shown by Paul today in the way this situation was handled.

He should have said that this matter was not appropriate to discuss on the air, and it would not be fair to do so for both parties. He didn't.

Paul Stevens certainly could not have a private meeting with her to counsel her because it would not look good, but someone else could have.

It is not safe to hand out (spiritual)scripts at the desperate appeal of every patient who is in pain? That's the easy way. The only result of that type of counseling is that the patient gets addicted to the prescription and attached to the supplier, and never truly gets healed... and where have we heard and seen that before???

PS - I'm proud of myself - I didn't even discuss Lard and grinders, hoagies and Italian dishes with clam sauce and syrup on waffles etc... although all this food talk lately is making me hungry.

My only advice is to be careful out there...

You need to brace yourself if you are going to continue listening to Disgrace Hour.

Martin L.

[Alex (12.183.1.215)]

Sure gonna miss ya.Yall come on back soonzyou can.Have a good vacation,and dont forget to tune into Jeopardy,Alec.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

So is Martin L. really Alec Donzi the writer who is also that Dietmar guy who left Bill Reed's ministry? I thought Martin L. lived in Mass.? This is very confusing.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Martin L lives in Mass

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

.

[Anonymous (12.183.1.164)]

up

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

Here's a fluzie doozie:

Grace Hour message on Monday July 26th 2004.

Carl H. (hypocrite) Stevens message was a study on the most blatent misuse of authority I have recently heard.

Although prerecorded, Carl's message was this:

Special blessings are given by God to those who have certain specific associations.

for example - There are "special blessings" for those that attend Maryland Bible College and Seminary.

I would therefore deduce, by what he said, that he may be inferring that to be "specially" associated with GGWO and its projects and leaders, one would be especially blessed vs. not having those GGWO associations.

Who believes that bunk?

Special blessings

Special Knowledge

Secret Knowedge

Smells like a Gnostic philosophy to me.

According to Carl Stevens own commercial:

"Precise teaching, precise doctrine, precise academics

Get Doctrine weekly so you can be better prepared to meet Jesus Christ at the Bema seat where you will be judged by the word of God"

In another separate plug in a message, Carl said:

"And if you subscribe to "Doctrine Weely" you can be qualified and first class to face Jesus Christ at the Bema Seat."

Sounds like a "Face-off" with Jesus Christ at the heavenly arena - my knowedge against His - and then I'll be graded - and then my rewards will flow...... or go depending upon how well I did on my finals.

I don't know about you, me thinks I will order several subscriptions and send them to all my friends and family so that I can at least get some bonus points on the final Judgement.

Doctrine weekly is like a doctrinal "Cliff Note" in cramming for the final.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

To borrow a phrase from Ripley's television show -

Unbelievable?...Believe it!

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

doctrine weekly -small book with high price on it . why doesn't gg like books from other christian writers??? because they think they are the only church..

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

One judgment. Everybody will be there. Sheep and goats, wheat and tares, those on the left, those on the right.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Ain't God great?!?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">CHAP. XXXIII. - Of the Last Judgment.

1. God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ, to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father. In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord: but the wicked, who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly. Amen.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="119911">From the Westminster Confession of Faith concerning the last judgment of ALL humanity, saved and lost alike--which view was held in common with every other branch of Protestantism at the time (17th Century)--Lutherans, Anglicans, Reformed, and even Baptists--because this was the view of the historic Christian Church and is consistent both with Scripture and its summary found in the Creeds:

"And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end." Nicene

"He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead." Apostles</FONT>

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Mr Westminster -

Believers will not be judged, for they have been judged as Christ was judged and paid the penalty and wage of that judgement - death.

The judgement of unbelievers - outside of Christ, that will be judged by the moral law of God's word will be accountable to it.

Believers have been justified and made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb - their robes are white, they are represented as Golden Candelsticks ( a type of pureity)in Revelation.

Believers have been made free from the law of sin and death and are declared "not guilty" by reason of their having recieved the sentence of life everlasting by that very same word of God.

Conflict - None

All "In Christ" are as He is - without sin or blemish - without spot or wrinkle - and thus as having been judged, are not eligible for the judgement.

Thus the misunderstood meaning of the Bema Seat.

Some, who will be saved as by fire - are not part of the body of Christ, nor an inheritor of those promices, for they did not ecscape the curruption of the world through lust, but by concience, having not been under the law, did the works of the law without the knowledge of the law or of Jesus Christ, and God will judge them on the basis of those works - good or evil.That is God's perogative.

Believers do not live by the knowedge of the tree of Good and Evil as a frame of reference. That is forbidden knowledge, and self justifying. They enter into the tru knowedge of God by entering into Christ who is the way , the truth and thge life.

There is no darkness in Christ, and in Christ, a beleiver cannot be judged for evil or good because they are one with God in Christ.

This faith is incurruptabe, and full of Glory. It is irrefutable, and uninteruptable, utterly reliable, and irrevokable.

Good and evil is not the basis of the law of judgement of a Believer in Christ.

Mr. Westminster did not understand the Glorious No Sin Gospel, and therefore his conclusions are falible.

Martin L. is back

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Mr. Westminster -

Believers will not be judged, for they have been judged as Christ was judged and paid the penalty and wage of that judgment - death.

The judgment of unbelievers - outside of Christ, that will be judged by the moral law of God's word will be accountable to it.

Believers have been justified and made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb - their robes are white, they are represented as Golden Candlesticks ( a type of purity)in Revelation.

Believers have been made free from the law of sin and death and are declared "not guilty" by reason of their having received the sentence of life everlasting by that very same word of God.

Conflict - None

All "In Christ" are as He is - without sin or blemish - without spot or wrinkle - and thus as having been judged, are not eligible for the judgment.

Thus the misunderstood meaning of the Bema Seat.

Some, who will be saved as by fire - are not part of the body of Christ, nor an inheritor of those promises, for they did not escape the corruption of the world through lust, but by conscience, having not been under the law, did the works of the law without the knowledge of the law or of Jesus Christ, and God will judge them on the basis of those works - good or evil. That is God's prerogative.

Believers do not live by the knowledge of the tree of Good and Evil as a frame of reference. That is forbidden knowledge, and self justifying. They enter into the true knowledge of God by entering into Christ who is the way , the truth and the life.

There is no darkness in Christ, and in Christ, a believer cannot be judged for evil or good because they are one with God in Christ.

This faith is incorruptible, and full of Glory. It is irrefutable, and uninterruptible, utterly reliable, and irrevocable.

Good and evil is not the basis of the law of judgment of a Believer in Christ.

Mr. Westminster did not understand the Glorious No Sin Gospel, and therefore his conclusions are fallible.

Martin L. is back again (and checked his spelling)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Wheat and tares, sheep and goats, left and right, one judgment--we will all be there, even you Martin L.

Mr. Westminster (and his divines) had a much better grasp of the Scriptures than do you, and there is no such gospel as the one to which you adhere, which is another gospel and we know what the apostle says about the preaching of another gospel now don't we?

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

JF

Being there and being judged are two seperate things. I can observe the judgment, and not be part of its focus.

Wheat and tares is not an exclusive decription of believers vs unbelievers. It can mean the good doers mixed with the evil doers and not meaning good as in Christians, and evil as in unbelievers. There is a distinction and a deduction that can be made in this context.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

JF

by the way- there are many gospels recorded throughout the Bible, but they all do not have the same meaning as the Glorious Gospel does.

The Gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus Christ was different than the Glorious Gospel preached by the Apostle Paul.

The Gospel of Noah and Moses and Jonah etc. all had significant salvation messages - but none offered the promise of "entering into Christ" and becoming part of his body.

JF - The gospel you are preaching, along with most of the other “devines” you mention is a mixture of Law and grace. The kingdom of God you adhere to as the focus of your gospel message is a mixture of the Gospel of the Kingdom which has nothing to do with the body of Christ, and the Law of Moses, upon which basis you deem yourself justified by works of behavior as a basis of justification - and it is not!!

Yours is really the other gospel - make no mistake about that.

This is why this board is focused on so much behaviorism and relativistic thinking and will continue so doing - tit for tat - until the true knowledge of Him who called us in understood.

The entire basis of “Carl Stevenism” and its destructive effects is based on the same forum you speak. This is why it will never work and is destined to defraud the believer every single time from their true inheritance in Christ.

The Vessel is Clean. That is the truth.

You struggle as did Peter with the same outward occupation with the flesh and that which is from without - attempting to perfect in that flesh (works orientation) that which was initiated and instituted and upheld by the power of God himself and by his spirit.

The freedom we have been given from sin is a Divine institution not made of hands least anyone could boast. You and I could not corrupt it if we tried, and we will certainly not be judged for something that is perfect and complete as it has been given to us through the perfect one himself - Jesus Christ.

What you offer my friend is a shabby Brand X substitute for the real thing.

JF - There is hope for you through repentance and accountability to the Grace of God that was given to us in Titus to live soberly and responsibly, and to deny the ungodliness and worldly desires that your religious ideas have propagated and distilled within yourself to enjoy.

Why not thank God that you are without sin and go on to better things.

All Christians do not sin and do not fall short of the glory of God!!!

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

he that says he is without sin deceiveth himself and the truth IS NOT in him..

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Martin, Martin, Martin:

YOU sin every time your fingers hit the keys. Every time you twist the scripture, every time you may persuade some simple minded twit on this board that you have even a sliver of credibility--you sin. Watch out, bubba, here comes the millstone! You will be there at the judgment, not as an observer, but as a sheep or a goat, wheat or tare, and Martin--hold up your hands and start learning your right from your left, sunshine. You're going to need to know the difference. You're hovering now like a vulture because you instinctively smell the death.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Nasty, nasty, nasty....*shaking head*

Do you actually pray to Jesus with that nasty mouth...yikes

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">The Rt.Rev. RJ will now tell us in all her wisdom, why these verses are not for today, are written by a misogynist, and were written purely for cultural problems that existed at the time and place 'then.' Or perhaps they were not for general consumption but only for the churches that were under Paul, and that other apostles did not share his convictions. Come on Mz. Theologian, expound!!!</FONT>

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I just love the smell of rancid testosterone in the morning...ho hum...take a break, Jim. Calm down. I am no threat to you, unless you happen to think so.


Hmmmm...interesting.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

To Jim Faucett,

You wrote in another thread, in response to some stuff I posted that "God saves whoever he decides to save" or fairly similar. If I am entirely off base, or even slightly off base, I am certain you will jump on me with both feet. But if I'm correct about what you wrote, then why are you even remotely concerned with Martin's, Roberta's, mine or anyone else's beliefs?

God saves who he decides to save. If this is true, then YOU, Jim Faucett have absolutely ZERO say so in the matter! So why are you so worried about someone else? What can you possibly do except further elevate your own sense of self importance?

You treat people like a young girl who's gotten pregnant and decides to have the child. You call her a whore and continue to beat her down even though nothing can be done to correct the situation. The only thing that happens in a case like that is that the person calling her a whore feels better about themselves.

Yes, you are hateful in the guise of being a man of God. NOT because of your doctrine, but because you profess to have all the answers and have ZERO love unless someone totally agrees with you. That doesn't seem Christ-like to me, but then again, it wouldn't, since I'm not as Scripturally educated as you.

My OPINION (and you know what they say about opinions) is that you are yet another person who sees their position as a pastor as just another oportunity to control people. I don't see much love coming from what you've written on this forum for anyone, unless they totally agree with you. Your take on Christianity offers no hope for anyone, because as you have written, God is not bound by our sense of morality and may decide to destroy us or send us to hell at His whim. I know He can do whatever He wants, but I always was taught (even by the Southern Baptists) that God loves us.

If God decides who is saved and who isn't with no logic that we are capable of understanding, why don't you just let it go instead of bullying people? What do YOU hope to gain by your bullying? Because by your belief, even your bullying cannot bring anyone to salvation. I think your bullying only serves to feed your superiority and need to control.

I am very glad that I don't need you for my salvation. I used to think I did need people like you when I was under the thumb of the Southern Baptists. You know, I'm not a Bible scholar, I only read my Bible. I may have a different interpretation of doctrine with someone, but at least I can respect consistency in logic. Yours is inconsistent.

Like you wrote about me once, I doubt that what I've written will make any difference to you. But it is important to me that you understand that I feel that you are a person seeking to control others just like Carl Stevens does. And your logic is inconsistent.

So now, beat me down, flame me, belittle my ignorance. You know you love it.

A Shogun Named Marcus

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Showgun-

Why not speak to Jim Faucett on his email.

Grace hour bloopers is the theme here and if possible let’s try to get back there.

My reference earlier was directed towards the special blessings and priviledged knowedge promised by Carl Stevens to those who attend his school and become affiliated with his pastors and teachers.

I also did not agree with the spirit of guilt and condemnation that lies subtlely behind such scriptural teachings on "The Bema Seat Judgement" as manipulated by Stevens’s urgent admonitions.

Martin L.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Gee, Martin, was Mr.Westminster on Grace Hour? I will certainly respect your thread, but I doubt that Marcus wants to correspond by email, seeing he has made up his mind already. So this will be my last on this point.

Marcus,
I would never call a young girl who got pregnant a whore, and have seen plenty of those situations where God has graciously intervened.

In fact, I love it when people disagree with me, especially if they are not easily offended and can manage the dialog.

Of course you don't need me for your salvation. Salvation depends only on the gracious activity of God through the preaching of the gospel and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

Hateful? Admitting to hating deception and error, as prevalent as it is on this board and in this country is not such a bad thing as you make it. I don't hate people. Not a one that I can think of. I do hate evil doctrines that endanger the souls of men. And I am not so silly as to imagine that God is beyond using us humans as means to His gracious ends. I have been known to engage Mormons in discussion at my house for such a long time that they are late for their next appointment, and I have been known to swipe up all the copies of 'Watchtower' at the laundromat, doctor's office or airport just to be ornery.

Speaking of love versus logic, that is the whole point--"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." And " So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." And again: "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." God gets to be God, and we do not.

So if this is flaming you, dear fellow, consider yourself flamed!

[Anonymous (170.97.67.91)]

JF: " I have been known to swipe up all the copies of 'Watchtower' at the laundromat, doctor's office or airport just to be ornery."

It's stealing and it's a crime.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Ornery...good word.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

It is not stealing. They are not for sale, they are free publications. And to remove them is to keep people from deception.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Gee, I never thought of actually TAKING them. What a good idea! One less copy for them to give to the unsuspecting.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

And if they take the free Christian tracts...is that stealing?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

maybe they'll read them.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

The Maryland Annotated Code, Article 27,Section 345, says taking a complimentary publications for the purpose of preventing others from reading them is punishable by $500 fine and/or 60 days in jail.

Texas probably has a similar law.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Topic please - stick to the topic

Is anyone going to share something pretaining to the topic????

Ever???

I guess no one ever listens to disGrace hour anymore.

Todays message was a classic on evangelism - how to do it and what happens to you if you don't, etc, etc.

Go to the web site and hear. It brings back fond memories.... of error

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

You're in trouble with the law, Jim!
Better bring back Cordell Walker

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Lock and load. They'll never take me alive! Actually, I do read them; such good artwork!

If you leave free literature in a place that you were not invited to leave it, and someone cleans it up -- is that lawbreaking?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

maybe they'll let you have a computer in your cell so you can still post on FactNet

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

they took the grace hour off the air at wvch i dont know what happened there .

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

some stations come off because of finances. that has always happened through the years

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

pray

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Todays disgrace hour was true to form as usual:

A caller calls-in distraught and depressed and discouraged from the pain and suffering from his chemotherapy and has a hard time praying.

Steve stevens spouts off a few hail mary's of scripture in an effort to jam some confidence down this callers throat - all pat answers - so much so it was embarrassing unconnecting I could hardly call it encouragement.

Luckily Steve Shibelli spoke-up with some compassion after Steve Stevens monologe during which he basically told the guy that the godly thing to do was to count it all joy and know that he will be going to a better place when he is in heaven (give me a break).

Its better not to give an answer oftimes then to try to be the expert. That is Steve Stevens MO. Its like playing baseball I guess. I call his counsel "foul balls" most of the time when he is not hitting them out in left field.

PLay ball!!!!

Sounded like Carl was being patched-in to the live feed. They still are propping him up and making an embarrinssing mess of it all.

I wish someone with some common sence would let Carl have some dignity by not exposing him to the public. I suppose Carl insisted on it though because he cannot let go of any of his last possible rewards he might get, and those that keep him propped suppose they will get double bonus points for honoring him. Oh well...

its the same old same old.

Some pastor from Ontario got on and expressed how thankful that steve and paul and carl are so much like the word of god to him etc. etc. This went on and on for at least 5 minutes it seemed.

This show is so predictable and so shallow. When will all this madness end?

Martin L.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Martin,
Could you please explain why you continue to listen to Grace Hour every single day, when it annoys you so much? I have never understood that

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Dear Nic-

Good question -

For one, I don't go out of my way to do so, and I don't listen every day, only if I happen to be driving in my car generally is when it happens to coincide with my remembrance that it is on.

Secondly, I generally listen with an open mind and am not looking for error - it just jumps out at me without any effort.

Thirdly, and secretly, I hope that perhaps I was wrong and this is just a nightmare in my head. I hope that I honestly hear something that may show some change in thinking, and which may offer me a glimmer of hope that these guys are maturing and willing to adjust to something close to reality and normalism, and that they understand the Glorious Gospel of grace which they have so boldly confessed they do - and they don't!!! - They have not even a clue how they twist and distort and tangle their message with works. With the same breath they say "Grace - grace" they cry Works, works..

I marvel. Although most "Christian" programming on the radio today is steeped in legalism and "sin-centered" "dualism" and "do-goodism" - - a poor worldly and sensual substitute for the Glorious Gospel of Grace that declares the believer as totally and divinely righteous - as Christ is - without works. The believer "IS" cleansed from "ALL" unrighteousness Nic. ALL is Every bit of unrighteousness with nothing left-over and remaining to be cleansed.

"Cleansed" means a literal purification - to purge of impurity. If sin is "driven-out" by the God whose word is sure and all powerful and final - how can we say that sin "sneaks" back in when God is not looking and we are not "watching"?

The "Vessel is Clean" - therefore what God has done (as in a marriage)- what he has blended together as one (body) LET NO MAN PUT ASUNDER. Neither death nor life nor things present or things to come can separate us from that Love of God in Christ Jesus who makes us one with himself on the basis of his faith that is given as a gift least any one can boast!!!

Peter had to face that same reality and needed to repent from his hypocrisy of blending grace and works. It took a disturbing dream from God, and the message "Take and Eat" for him to begin to embrace the liberty he had in Christ. All the early Jewish believers struggled with these issues because of their strong indoctrination in Legalism.

Unfortunately - two thousand years later - believers still face the mountain of doubt as to their true liberty and inheritance in Christ as part of his sinless body.

The "No Sin" gospel preached by Paul and John and Peter cannot be rivaled by any religious system - no matter how evangelical and traditionally orthodox.

How can we - who "ARE" dead to sin (it has no life in us at all) - live any longer in it? It is impossible.

That is Grace and the true Finished work.

We need add nothing else to it ... except...

TO BELIEVE!!!!!!!

Thanks for your question Nic

Sincerely,

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Have a great day everybody....


and be careful out there!!

Martin L.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

Did anyone see the movie "Weekend at Bernies" made circa 1988?
It is the one in which the freinds of a dead man prop him up and take his body with them to a party dressed up to fool others as if he is still alive. For the sake of the movie it supposedly fools a lot of people. Sad to say though it reminds me of Carl on grace hour.

[Anonymous (63.27.19.249)]

It seems like GGWO and Bernie is pastor Carl.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Do something carl stevens doesn't want you to do tonight... read factnet.

[Anonymous (63.27.25.65)]

Carl Stevens does not even know how to use a computer! He's getting his information 2nd hand through his toadies. It's VERY sad because they are trying to keep the Carl Stevens' myth alive! Just buy the poor old man a metal detector and let him live out his twilight years quietly looking for coins on some beach will you!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

LOL LOL LOL LOL

[Anonymous (63.27.25.231)]

Let's not be stingy, maybe throw in one of those croqueted beercan hats and a Hawaii shirt for all his years of hard work too!

[Anonymous (67.243.240.14)]

bump

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/ is all you need for all your stevens silly wonder. check out the aud/vid clips within the August archive, they are worth the look see.