Five Men Died BecauseThey Went Against His Church

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Carl said it. I heard him. He said one was from Livermore Falls, Maine...another was from Milton Plantation, Maine...where were the others from?

Who were they? How did they die? What about their families that now had no husband, no father? Who took their lives? What did they do to deserve death? Carl said they died because they went against his church.

They went against his church....hmmmm. Did they go to heaven? Carl also said Friday night that only the obedient go to Heaven. so...according to Carl did these five men go to heaven?

He said these things Friday night at this year's convention. Where is the tape? Why haven't they released the unaltered video feed?

Lets hear the truth. Who took their lives?

Roberta

[Anonymous (207.44.132.115)]

Here brave Bitch call him and ask his Lawyer is he knows.

Bet you won't do.

Your a scared little freak.

Here is Mike's office number: 410-254-7000

The number for the is 410-483-3700

Ask for Dr. Capello in the AV department.

Netter yet ask them to send you a transcript because you are deaf and stupid.

Heck myabe they will put you on the front row to read lips.

Ask some more stupid querstions.

Hey where does your husband work?

Do you like in the ass?

Bitch

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

.

[Anonymous (207.44.132.115)]

What's with the period?


RJ you need to answer the question.

Yes baby.

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

He also said that if you had one abortion you could go to heavenm, but if you had two you went to hell. Pretty weird stuff.

[Anonymous (207.44.132.115)]

Sounds like he is onto something RJ you had any abortions?

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

The audience looked so shocked at the things he was saying. He also said Pastor Schebelli had killed men in his church...how strange is that?

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

Lake Elsinore Letter...PLEASE READ
This is a letter written in the 80's. It is a branch church explaining why they could no longer be part of TBS/GGWO.

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

He said these things Friday night at this year's convention. Where is the tape? Why haven't they released the unaltered video feed?

Lets hear the truth. Who took their lives?

Roberta

[John Krainis (207.5.239.219)]

Roberta, thanks for all your excellent posts. Apparently death threats have long been a useful part of the arsenal. The following is Note #11 from "A Close Look At The Bible Speaks World Outreach", by Elliot Miller, Copyright 1983 by Christian Research Institute, Inc.:

<BLOCKQUOTE>In the taped message <U>Presumption Vs. Speaking to the Rock</U> Carl Stevens said: "If you have a close friend that evaluates anybody in delegated authority I'll guarantee you that if it's done with any consistency you'll be weak and sick and die in the future months...don't you say a <U>SENTENCE</U>, not a <U>SENTENCE</U>, not a <U>LINE</U>, don't presume or you'll <U>DIE</U> in the future months."</BLOCKQUOTE>

The truth is believers are commanded by God to evaluate ministers: "Test everything. Hold on to the good."

How sad that so many are still being intimidated by this man's threats. How good that Jesus came "that we might have life..."

[freaked out (66.30.49.45)]

I remember that message and many others like it over our many years at TBS/GG and my husband was so afraid to leave that weird place because, he finally was able to pinpoint, he was afraid we would have a car accident or one of us would get cancer or financial catastrophy would befall us!

This is not the nature of our God, gosh darn it!!

[Anonymous (70.16.13.121)]

You bastards are lucky to b alive.

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

TROLL

[Bob Brinton (141.154.144.190)]

I don't mind dying, as long as it serves God's ends rather than Carl's.

[Tweedledee (69.53.59.250)]

"One man who spoke against this ministry got cancer of the tongue and died"
Carl Stevens

[Bob Brinton (141.154.144.190)]

One man (Steven) got rocks, and he was of God. I often think about him as I go through this board. Bob

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

"If you have a close friend that evaluates anybody in delegated authority I'll guarantee you that if it's done with any consistency you'll be weak and sick and die in the future months ... don't you say a sentence, not a sentence, not a line, don't presume or you'll die in the future months."

CARL SAID THIS IN A TAPED MESSAGE

[Anonymous (172.149.40.215)]

By Anonymous (172.149.40.215) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 12:06 pm: To all those confused about going against Carl! When someone leaves and is against Carl he make remarks without using names and says things like"He's homosexual, he's(or she) is going to get cancer, or die or something terrible." There is more than one kind of curse. One is when you use your tongue against someone in the fashion above. One good reason some of these people leave and then find themselves ill or otherwise is that the tongue of Carl has placed a curse on them. Is this not equal to whitchcraft? Why do you think the Bible tells us to be carefull of our words. (this has NOTHING to do with Carl's "evil report trash". That's his sick version of keeping everything hidden). We must pray and BREAK the curses that are put upon those who leave. Simply BREAK THE CURSE IN THE NAME OF JESUS. Then thank HIM for caring for his child. Please do this if you know someone who left, even long ago, and presently

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

And I really have learned to hate selling these damn hotdogs--and the porno movie theater is really stinky.

[Nancy C. (172.164.100.2)]

The language here is very crude and unnecessary. I don't think people die because they leave a church. They die because death is an appointment according to Scripture and the issues of death are in the hands of the Lord. 1John 5:16 "If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven]." Isn't this the sin of rejecting Christ? Can anyone show me a verse that says Believers are taken home early? I have heard it said but can't find a verse. Thankyou

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Dearest Nancy,
The language I used above is sarcastically reminiscent of what Carl used to say happened to people who spoke against him. It may be crude but it is necessary to remind people who we're dealing with here. If you're offended I apologize, I didn't originate the phrase.

These verses come to mind on the subject to which you refer, Carl twists them:

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme...1 Tim. 1:20

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor.5:5

It is good to remember that Paul was an apostle inspired by the Holy Spirit, Carl is far from it.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Note that the person referred to in 1Cor5 repents and is restored in 2Cor...they didn't die.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

i have had three boyfriends in my past die...hmmmm

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Sorry, Nancy, there is also this from 1Cor11:

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


Carl also loves to twist this one.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Margo:

"I wouldn’t if I were you
I know what she can do
She’s deadly man, and she could really rip your world apart
Mind over matter
The beauty is there but a beast is in the heart

Oh here she comes
Watch out boy she’ll chew you up
Oh here she comes
She’s a maneater"

Hall and Oates

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

Have I mentioned that I like your taste in music, Cordell?

Roberta

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

haha! cordell... thats what they got for not eating the hotdogs in MY porno theatre!

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

But Margo,
The rooms of my mind are filled with categorical doctrine...

It's just that my mind also has its "johns" filled with old issues of "Hit Parader" and "Lloyd Thaxton's Tiger Beat" going back to 1964, and there are old vinyls, eight tracks, cassettes in there too when I need to take the mental you-know-what.

It was on a break in a flight from the Philippine Islands at Hickham Field in Hawaii where I first heard these lyrics:

"Well she was just seventeen
If you know what I mean
and the way she looked was way beyond compare
Now I'll never dance with another--no
Since I saw her standin' there"

I of course--did not know what they meant, being just twelve, but I liked the tune, gave it a 95, you could dance to it...

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

That was for RJ too

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Oops. I mustn't ruin my reputation of not being any fun.

[Chris Brown (151.196.17.7)]

Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 07:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberta said:

"Carl said it. I heard him. He said one was from Livermore Falls, Maine...another was from Milton Plantation, Maine...where were the others from?

Who were they? How did they die? What about their families that now had no husband, no father? Who took their lives? What did they do to deserve death? Carl said they died because they went against his church.

They went against his church....hmmmm. Did they go to heaven? Carl also said Friday night that only the obedient go to Heaven. so...according to Carl did these five men go to heaven?

He said these things Friday night at this year's convention. Where is the tape? Why haven't they released the unaltered video feed?

Lets hear the truth. Who took their lives?

Roberta"

I got the tape this morning from Friday night, and they took out everything that you heard.....He did say " It isn't that we get to heaven by works but the truth is obedience to the word, obedience to the cross, obedience to going to church more than ever, obedience to soul winning, obedience to loving one another, obedience to working and serving when you're tired, obedience that costs you sacrifice. That's the fruit of heaven. Contrast that...going to hell. Priorities not divine" Then the tape is cut off and clapping for the end is put in.

At least the people there heard it and whoever got on the internet... it's got to make people think.

[Isabella (207.7.199.208)]

rj, Just to let you know, I heard it too. I wasn't surprised. I'm sure I have tapes and transcipts of this kind of "preaching". Have to look through my cult box. Anyway, they have to keep an eye and an ear out for the old man now. That of course means they (the so called inner circle) know what we all know and they know they have to edit it because they know it is wrong. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">YES!</FONT>

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I really worry about the people who participate in these cover ups. How can they truly fellowship with the spirit when they continuously grieve him?

Please let someone say no and expose the sin...this is what I have been praying for lately. If they really loved Pastor Stevens they would do it, they would stop this madness and do what is right. Others have and paid a dear price...but now that there are those here who have come together to try to make things right we could be there to help that brave individual.

I pray someone will step forward for right...will gain reconciliation with the Holy Spirit for himself and his family...and for countless other families and for Pastor Stevens as well. I know in my heart that God would bless mightily.

My plea to all in the GGWO...if you really love Pastor Stevens, do what is right for him and his congregation...expose the lies that keep you all bound and keep you from the true abundant life.

I pray with all my heart that I might live to see that day.

Roberta

[Anon the Brief (64.12.117.20)]

Purposeful, orchestrated deceit.

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta,

That is my heartcry also.. thank you for those words.

We must continue to pray together for this end.

Thank you for listening and expressing the heart of God to us once again.

Cara

[JD Skeet (149.174.164.83)]

Hall and Oates?

For shame, Curmudgeon

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Who has blinded thee to truth
Has robbed thee of light. Thy blood
flows not freely within thine heart.
For the leaderthief has forsaken his light
And thine also, for Truth alone shines
The path to God, the path to Light.
He who steals thy light is decieved
By pride. His need is to rule thee, to
lead thee upon his own path, lit only
by the shadow of light once known.
Seek truth without his shadows, for he
is truly decieved by pride to harm thee.

copyright R J Fernalld 2002-4

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

No Skeeter, for fun. Take a deep breath.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 06:49 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The real problems, with GGWO as I see it are:

- lack of accountability in leadership
- lack of fiscal transparency and accountability
- over-emphasis on personality and not enough on Christ.
- mistreatment of dissenters and ex-members.

The problems I see with many who leave embittered are.

-unforgiveness, even after years of having left (Time does NOT heal, forgiveness does.)
- blaming others for your own decisions.
- blaming others for your own dysfuntionalism.
- desire for vengeance. they wil not be satisfied until GGWO is a pile of ashes.

posted originally by Sam Spade

[Bob Brinton (141.154.186.144)]

The reason to want GGWO in a pile of ashes, as you put it, is because it's a cage, and some can't seem to get out. It's the trapped inside that concern us. The blind should not be led by others who are blind. At least Jesus didn't seem to think so. The cage can look to those entering it as if it were freedom itself. We're trying to let them know it's not, and tell the blind leadership (and the less blind they are, the greater their accountability) that they're not helping 'the sheep' as much as they're pretending they are. God is not amused. Read what He says about false shepherds in Ezekiel 34. Bob

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Well said, Bro. Bob.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

The value in GGWO is not as a ministry. It is the many precious souls in it, who need to know the Living God in Jesus Christ. The "ministry" is a human thing. The Church of Christ is his precious bride. Lord preserve these precious ones in the faith once delivered to the saints.

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

"We're not just dealing with a situation of "This is my church." For many people, The Bible Speaks is their whole life. It affects every area: the way you think about your mother, your wife or girlfriend, your kids, your car, your clothes -­everything is affected by that preaching. It's impossible to erase it simply by saying "OK, we're not going to talk about 'delegated authority' anymore." It's permeated your entire being, it's going to take more than that to stop you from believing in it."

CRI Report

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

I am ashamed at the defense coming from the leadership of GGWO at this time. The original argument in defense of GGWO was an old one: look at all the fruit, the soul-winning, and the world-wide ministry. Sadly, this argument is challenged by the other fruit – the many who have posted here who no longer attend, who are angry, hurt, abused, betrayed, and now defamed. It can no longer be said that “no one ever leaves GGWO” for their names and testimonies are listed here. Sometimes entire churches leave, like the Lake Elsinore Church. This fruit, routinely disparaged and ignored for years, is now speaking up. So, the argument of fruit and souls was OK until we began to list ALL the fruit of the ministry.

Now the leader of TBS/GGWO has resorted to growling and threatening like a thug. “I killed 5 men” and vague stories about people who died in Maine 30 years ago with cancer of the tongue because they went against the ministry. What kind of church wishes death on its opponents? What happened to bless your enemies? (And I do not agree with other hateful voices on this board who use profanity and wish to see leaders raped in jail; I reject and distance myself from that line of thinking). However, I cannot imagine the overseeing Pastor of Park Street Church in Boston threatening death to opposing voices. Why do we accept such outrageous behavior in any pastor? (And why was the Friday night convention service carefully removed from the archives as well as the June 24 Grace Hour broadcast? Because other leaders in Baltimore know that these outbursts are thuggish, dangerous, and outrageous). If I am wrong, put them back up, unedited.
Jack

[Dave (4.156.90.160)]

For what it is worth,
the following four days are missing from the Grace Hour Broadcast Archives

Thursday September 6, 2001
Wednesday September 5, 2001
Tuesday September 4, 2001
Monday September 3, 2001

[Isabella (207.7.195.3)]

I don’t know why they don’t excise all of ‘pastor’s’ utterings. Even his bantering with the
‘little pretend pastors’ sounds crazy. Did anyone pick up his ‘message’ about silence in
the face of this dissention? In one of his ‘messages’, he said, “even the cross can’t touch
it”. He was implying that this (board) was the epitome of evil. I love that they edit some
of his stuff out. It shows that they know the truth. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">YES!</FONT>

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

Did not Jesus say; My kingdom is NOT of this world, if it were so then my followers would fight to defend it?

I have not heard a single defender of GGWO or Stevens little Kingdom ever answer that one.

It should be amusing to hear their answers as the armed bodyguards escort Carl to the stage to preach.

What is Stevens so afraid of ?????

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

It is worth looking at this passage in its entirety:

1Tim.5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin. 23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. 24 The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment; for others, their sins follow after. 25 Likewise also, deeds that are good are quite evident, and those which are otherwise cannot be concealed.

First: There is to be a rebuke in the presence of all. The purpose? To cause FEAR in other elders who may be tempted to sin in a like manner.

Second: These principles apply to everybody. Not just a few. The old sinners are not excluding because of age, infirmity, etc. They are not applicable to just the “expendables” they apply to the very top as well.

Third: It is possible to share in the sins of another, if you enable them.

Fourth: Wine is a good thing.

Fifth: Sins will turn up, sooner or later. Good deeds are evident.

I wonder if the Schallers, Robinsons, Lewises, Duffs, et al realize that they share in the sins they cover up?

[Bob Brinton (151.203.163.233)]

Hey Cordell, You know, if they share a prophet's rewards...
I haven't read it yet, but couldn't the CRI report be considered this 'rebuke in the presence of all'? Bob

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I find it revealing that NO one who follows the preachings of Carl Stevens has stepped up to the plate to defend this blasphemy. No one.

Five men died because they went against his church.

Carl said it. I heard him. He said one was from Livermore Falls, Maine...another was from Milton Plantation, Maine...where were the others from?

Who were they? How did they die? What about their families that now had no husband, no father? Who took their lives? What did they do to deserve death? Carl said they died because they went against his church.

They went against his church....hmmmm. Did they go to heaven? Carl also said Friday night that only the obedient go to Heaven. so...according to Carl did these five men go to heaven?

He said these things Friday night at this year's convention. Where is the tape? Why haven't they released the unaltered video feed?

Lets hear the truth. Who took their lives?

Roberta

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

be careful of CRI , deceptioninthechurch , and other fault-finder groups ,they focus on negativity ,none of those groups win any souls to the Lord Jesus Christ .
let us draw near to God and he will draw near to us .forgiveness is key here .our biggest test it seems is people ..

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

Hogwash...go away before somebody drops a house on YOU....

[Isabella (207.7.198.219)]

To 69.242.21.100
What are you talking about? If I'm not mistaken, the Christian Research Institute was invited to give the group some hints about how they might make some corrections. Fault-finding indeed! They fell over backwards to accomodate this so called "ministry". They were very gracious about it as well. TBS/GGWO scandalized them and Stevens called them <FONT COLOR="ff0000">"Bad Birds"</FONT>, after the first draft. If you're in there, I know how you feel, but do yourself a favor and get some relief. Move on. You'll feel much better.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Ahhh but CRI does win souls.. they pluck the individual out a counterfeit church and shine the way back to God.

Fair warning should go to those that attend GG. Now there is a cesspool of negativity, slander, discord, disunity, back-biting, maligning, father against son... get the point?

Forgiveness has nothing to do with it. The righteous must speak the truth at all cost.

If our biggest test is people than GG has failed the test. Read the posts of the broken and discarded, GG has failed miserably towards their brethren.

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

find it revealing that NO one who follows the preachings of Carl Stevens has stepped up to the plate to defend this blasphemy. No one.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.163.233)]

Five people out of how many? How many have died from following Carl Stevens?

[Anon B (205.188.117.20)]

Good point, Bob.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Carl is well-known for pulling any odd number out of his hat to make a point. His "stories" come under the unspoken GG doctrine of "the ends justifying the means." It really wasn't 5 men or women or children or cows or pigs and it really wasn't in Maine or Mass. or small town far far away and no one really died or lost their tongue or hair or anything else. The story is said because it meets the expected end... to instill fear in flock and keep them and their money in GG.

[Isabella (207.7.206.227)]

152: You are <FONT COLOR="ff0000">"One Hundred Million Percent Correct"</FONT>

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Give it a rest
I was there. This is bunk.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Nobody is covering up anything from the convention messages. Sorry to say but this time you people have gone overboard.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

So, Isabella, you are 100 percent wrong!!!!!!

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

64.12
I have heard Carl say stuff like this before. Over a period of 15 years. One day in the library at South Berwick he proclaimed that a man who'd spoken against HIS MINISTRY died from cancer of the tongue. This took place in 1973 or 1974. He did it loads of times afterward, and these five guys I've personally heard him mention them before. He also told me PERSONALLY AND FACE TO FACE THAT DAVID MACADAM HAD COMMITTED THE SIN UNTO PHYSICAL DEATH. This was in 1984.

The fact is that someone has edited the tape. Hundreds on this board heard what he said, and from what I can tell (and I have been out since 1987) this is just more of the same.

You need to wake up.

[margo (149.174.164.83)]

cordell
i too have been present when the tongue cancer issue was addressed on many occasions from the Carl pulpit, as well as references to many other physical afflictions that happened to people along the way who dared speak against carl and his organization.
i dont know who the anon. people are who are vehemently denying these claims and i really dont care to know who they are, but the FACTS remain... he didnt say it once, he didnt say it twice... he said it ALOT while i was a TBS participant... and the intention was obvious... fear and intimidation.
ostriches put their head in the sand and pretend that whatever it is out there they dont want to face doesnt exist and if they dont see it they figure it isnt there... even tho it is. well my feathered "friends" head in... head out... facts are facts! he said it!

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I seem to be drawing a lot of fire at the moment.

[muskyrose (64.12.117.20)]

Oh for cryin out loud, carl was saying way back in the 73 when I first came to TBS. It was one ofthe first things I remember about his sermons. So those of you how are denying it GET OVER IT! HE HAS SAID IT! FOR YEARS!!! That and a lot more.

>>>>>>>>----------Bonnie

[muskyrose (64.12.117.20)]

Can you all tell I'm not suffering fools wisely today? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

gladly. you are not suffering fools gladly. get your quotes right,Bonnie.

You know I'll nitpick. (takes up crochet needles, "how do you work these?")

For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 2 Cor. 11:19

[muskyrose (64.12.117.20)]

yea, yea, go a head nitpick and eat your quiche...whatever... They are still FOOLS and I'm not gladly suffering. although one of these days I might see myself as wise.

You know I still love you...even if you don't share your quiche.

>>>>>>>>>-----Bonnie

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

JD Skeet (149.174.164.83)
Friday, July 02, 2004 - 08:17 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberta:

It is totally unnecessary to post this to every thread. All you're going to do is make people angry.


Roberta (141.154.144.33)
Friday, July 02, 2004 - 08:45 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reaching kids in whatever way I can, where ever I can on any thread I can...if that makes people angry, I feel sorry for them.

My name and integrity has been slammmed and sullied on thread after thread on this board by a GGWO pastor who assumed and falsly accused me of being dangerous, breaking the law and breaking confidences, vengence etc. How many kids he warned off from getting help is not known, but if it were only one I find that offensive and that makes ME angry. I am sure God's none too happy about it either.

I will post this wherever and whenever it needs to be and if it makes anyone angry I would question their love for children in crisis.

[Anonymous (80.221.65.63)]

Friday evening is now available at ggwo.org. Something has been cut out in the beginning of the message, though.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Oh they karate chopped the whole thing!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

It would be profitable for all of us to read George Orwell's 1984. Tampering with messages reeks of Big Brother. The main character's profession with editing and rewriting. It was necessary for "group-think." If it could be erased then it never happened. Winston's job is similiar to John Capello.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I couldn't agree with you more 205. It is eerily similar to the 1984 senario, indeed.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

CRI is junk ,hannegraff himself is a moneychanger he sells stuff just like the guys hes judging . Romans 1" you that judge do the same things''

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

There is nothing wrong in and of itself with selling stuff. That's what makes the world go round. The difference is between selling snake oil and real medicine. Most of Hank's stuff is medicine, though he like all of us has his quirks.

Carl Stevens however, is the master snake oil salesman.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.146.79)]

Animal Farm is good too. Bob

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Yes, Animal Farm is a "must read".. it is actually comic relief to substitute GG leaders names for the animals.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I have just listened to Carl Stevens's message from Friday night, and even though it is very obviously heavily edited--there is enough there that without a doubt that what he preached was foreign to the gospel of grace revealed in the scriptures.

He very obviously believes that regeneration is our own doing or at least initiated by us. That is simple heresy.

After hearing him say that we go to heaven by obedience to doing things like soul winning and church attendance I do not understand how any right thinking pastor could defend that kind of preaching.

Any defence would almost have to come from a blinded obeisance to the man.

It even appeared that Scibelli was taken aback and almost speechless when he stood to speak.

somebonus@yahoo.com

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

its too bad someone cant put the original transcript of that one posted somewhere huh? where's neil?

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Big Brother may believe that destroying the tape destroys the reality of the message. And that may have worked in "1984" Lenox days. But Big Brother needs to realize that the little totalitarian kingdom is crumbling and the internet broadcasts reality in real time. We heard it, we discussed it, it happened and the permanent record remains right here on the little ole internet.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

I just watched the Friday night service myself. I cannot understand how any thinking person would amen those words he spoke. But what was astounding to me is his mental/physical condition. At least twice he looked within seconds of keeling over. His speech was slow and slurred, his mouth barely able to open. He appeared bewildered and confused. This man belongs in a hospital now!!! Before he kills himself! What is the leadership thinking to allow this to continue?? How can the branch pastors and missionaries go home knowing they did not intervene??? Somebody please get help for this man!!!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I heard the original, before it was edited and I tell you...I was stunned. I haven't been able to get the image of him out of my mind. He does look to be in need of some serious medical care. The message was chilling and so off that I was actually in tears for my friends that are still there.

Please take this in the spirit I write it...having again read the book, Carl reminds me now of J R R Tolkein's Gollum. The man is being destroyed by his own sins. It was painful to see.

[Nancy Curra (172.144.182.54)]

Cordell, Isabella, Cara &amp; Margo...I know you don't I ? I think you're who I think you are lol http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif that made no sense anyway Hi http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Sometimes I am who I think I am ... I think.

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

hi nancy
do you have a maiden name... perhaps from the mid to late 70s we had the pleasure of a stan ashby class or a patty huff's "gods complete woman" class(heaven help us)...or maybe an early to mid eighties encounter after i returned from Israel with Carl Tom and Mike???
my last name is and was Royals (never changed it when i got married.... is that not being submissive???) and i was known more formally at that time as margaret.
ring-a-ding any bells?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I am trying to place you Margo but you won't answer your email.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Margo...are you the hot shot lady that worked in the lunch line in Lenox?

[margo (205.188.117.20)]

i answered your email cordell... nope i think that was barbara brown youre thinking of. she was the one who counted the people going through the line and made sure you had your lunch ticket. she married scott something or other.

[Nancy C (172.160.168.232)]

o no I wasn't in Lenox I was in Miami at that time. I moved to Baltimore, woo hoo http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif, I even know the date lol on May 5, 1990.
Lol Cordell ok u won't tell me who you are but do you know me?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Nancy why don't you email me?

somebonus@yahoo.com

I think you came in after I had already been gone a few years ('87-'88). I was overseas in 1990.

[Anonymous (67.249.230.147)]

Don't post here or YOU WILL DIE.

Sign
Carl Stevens.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.155.235)]

I try to die daily.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

think of those that die spiritually if they continue in that cult

[Nancy Curra (172.146.65.64)]

bye, as I said in another post I thought this was a place to help the wounded and hurting. Only 3 responded to me. And only two are talking to me. So even here I don't fit I guess, so adios factnet, leaders, churches...It's all just a dream... my home is in Heaven and we are in the last days...my expectation always should be of God...this is just a place of backbiting and I don't trust either side...God bless you all...and ciao

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

do you have aol instant messenger ????? aim maybe all of us should get the free aim instant messenger and create our own chat ..
www.free.aol.com/aim

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Sorry to see you go, Nancy.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Bob,
A dead man does not have to try to die.
Doesn't it say "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live.."
If we had to try to do it ourselves, forget it!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

If any man does not take up his cross...

[Nancy C (172.172.178.32)]

Well I guess I'm back, I have msn, I will talk with anyone but not about other people

[Anonymous (67.243.139.69)]

Nancy,

Why are you even here then? It's suspected to provoke "pity" and "sympathy" for "poor you" and that others might adhere to your own shallow idealism. If you can't take the heat get outta the kitchen sugar!

Bet the "leadership" at GGWO would visit you in the nursing home if you had money or were a beautiful blonde!

[Anonymous (68.34.98.94)]

Anyone who knows Nancy knows she never ever pities herself. She considers herself very blessed by God, and she is.

[Anonymous (67.243.139.69)]

Excuse me 68; Hon, just read Nancy's various messages...a "feel sorry for me" attitude ozzes from these posts!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Anon 67...

Unkindness does not in anyway reveal the nature of Christ toward the ill. If you have never been extremely ill, lonely, hoping for another voice to speak to you of God in kindness, you can't possibly understand how Nancy is feeling or the timbre of her voice.

Unkindness doesn't become you...please try to understand?

[Anonymous (68.34.98.94)]

Sorry. I can't attack Nancy. She is always so positive in the face of adversities that I hope to never come to know.
She knows there are problems with the church, but she chooses to quietly bring them to God. I'm not implying thats the only way to handle the problems, nor do I think that.
God bless you, Nancy.

[Anonymous (67.243.139.69)]

My perspective on Nancy's motives comes from the fact that I am someone who has been disabiled from birth! I will NEVER know what it is like to run on the beach with bare feet, to dance, or to simply jump up and down. Nonetheless, nothing gripes me more than to read or hear of a fellow disabled individual "milking" their disability for "pity" which translates into the power to control others through a manipulation of their compassion!

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Tis a different thing, you know being disabled from birth, and being older and being newly disabled after a life of free movement.

I myself had to learn to adapt to a new way of living when I became disabled. Nancy is just expressing her need for good fellowship because she cannot get any where she is. That's not wrong...I realize you find her situation something you don't understand, but please...be kind.

Kindness won't cost you a thing and it may just easy Nancy's stress. Surely that can't be too much to ask?

I am not angry, cuz I understand where you're coming from, but there's never a good reason for meanness.

[Anonymous (67.243.139.69)]

Dear Roberta,

...Okay!

[Nancy Curra (172.157.129.254)]

I am not an idealist I know more than most about what is going on in Baltimore. I have been put in the frying pan and I know what it's like. I am here because I am American and a Christian, last I heard that gives me freedom to do as I choose. I have friends here as well as in church. I am not here to hurt or slander but there is a small core here who just choose to do that. Jesus Christ did turn over money tables, did not spare feelings this is true But .... He knew all things... you don't. I will no longer acknowledge hurtful or critical or damaging or crude and rude comments here... but dear little mind I have as much right here as you, so if you truly are a "Christian" manifest it or shut up. Those of you know who you are. If you have a problem with a leader or a person, get some guts yes i said it and confront that person face to face and say exactly what you are saying here and what is bothering you (yes this is a runon sentence, I am not an English major) and if you have a problem with me again here is my email, state your name and behave like a real man or woman act your age and state your case. This is Biblically how to handle a matter, not with cursing, rudeness or crude talk. Not hiding behind anonymity if you are going to accuse. If you are hurting or wounded no one understands that more than me. I am not upset or sad or depressed because they have not come. I was simply stating that I understand. Now those who know me know my heart, know where I stand, know my confession, Know my suffering and how I handle things. If you don't know me and continue to be rude and accusational well then I pity you. You miss out on true Christian friendship and fellowship because You Choose to be bitter and back biting. No I won't leave factnet and last I looked you were not my husband and I am not a candidate to have a wife, lol. nor are you any authority over me, so don't try to use your bullying hiding behind anonymous name to try to threaten or scare or push me around. I may look helpless dear but I am not. I have God backing me up. I have said my peace and really not interested in your response because I know it will be immature, not thought out and back biting. Enjoy your life, if you are able to find joy in anything. To be honest with you I pity you. And you know what honey? My joy no Man or woman can take from me.

[Anonymous (67.249.224.14)]

"WOW"...

...to quote one of many mundane and ridiculous G.G.W.O. idioms..

...apparently you've rallied from your "poor" and "pathetic" sickbed Nancy!

Guess your Latina "sangre" is stirring things up a bit huh? I just love it when you reveal your TRUE character!

[Nancy Curra (172.157.129.254)]

True character? I am very calm right now. I just addressed issues that have come up. Righteous anger is not a flaw of character. I am not poor nor pathetic, never have been. Being ill doesn't make one poor and pathetic, be careful because we all will have our day of illness, hon. I am not rallying nor am I latina. And I reread what I wrote and not sure what you mean by true character. If you mean that I have addressed certain people because of their rude remarks to me well I suppose I oould just sit back and allow it, be passive and not take a stand. But I have taken a stand and if you knew me at all you would not be making judgemental statements. Anyway as I said in another thread this place is getting to me, no sign of Christian love, nothing more than slander and backbiting in most threads. What started out as a place to help the hurting has turned into a free for all bar brawl and honestly my time is well spent doing other things. So I will say God bless you and sorry we never had the opportunity to become friends or fellowship in the Lord. In Heaven it will be much different and all of this will be no more than burned up works for all of us, which is a gift of mercy from God. We will fellowship amongst each other with our dear Savior there. I am not sure what a GG idiom is either, but then I am naive to many things. God bless you, find peace in God and may He fill your life with His joy. And may you understand the difference between righteous anger and anger that comes from our human souls. Thank you all for helping me out the door of Factnet. Enjoy. God bless you Ray, Pr. Moon, Dr. Sutorius, Cara and Bonnie. I still consider you my friends.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Dear Nancy<
I know that you don't know me, I am a former church member in Mass. I just want you to know that I came here for answers and fellowship with other Christians whom I knew must be feeling let down to.
I think some people have nothing "real" to add so they bait others with innuendos and cheap shots.
I am sorry this has happened to you.
If you really are not coming back, I will keep you in prayer and ask that you pray for me as well. But if you do come back, I hope that sometime we have the chance to e-talk.
I hope God's Blessings are great.
In Christ Always, Iz

[Nancy Curra (172.142.136.37)]

Hi just click for my email and ty for your edifying comment. God bless you my friend. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Oh I am here because I received emails asking me to stay, so for the sake of the hurting and my friends I will stay.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[PlsThinkOnThis (172.136.173.44)]

Hebrews 3:15 "Then while it is [still] called Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion [in the desert, when the people provoked and irritated and embittered God against them]."
6Seeing then that the promise remains over [from past times] for some to enter that rest, and that those who formerly were given the good news about it and the opportunity, failed to appropriate it and did not enter because of disobedience,"

Hebrews 4:7 "Again He sets a definite day, [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts."

In love, Nancy

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

bump

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

bump

[Anonymous (70.16.2.97)]

I thought our salvation was secure and could never be lost.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

It can't be.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

woahhh that was some freaky stuff about men dying... I get more violent each day as more and more truth comes out.. I have asked a few who left if they would like to all get together, maybe 12 or so of us and attend a service. Instead of the usual WOW and AWEEESOMEEE they usually chant, we would say LIAR and BULL**** as the lies were spewed forth from the pulpit, Lies such as those that left are spiritually brain dead, Those with real issues are sowers of discord..negativity, evil reports, cocksuckin eggs and such. Now what I think is real funny is I already see a post about GGWO security not allowing disruptions lmao Did someone have the same idea I had? Mine is for the Newark church. they don't have security there.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

well my friend, (this is no lie) was railing against stevens and defending the "internet people" that same night he got tingler in his right cheek and lost all feeling in his face and lips. his face is falling off the side of his head. it's one of the funniest things i've heard heard!

[Anonymous (67.243.240.14)]

TODAYS date is a memorable one in our nations memory. The day when a group of "believers"
(as they called themselves) thought it justifiable to do anything they could to attack those outside of their faith.
If you have read a lot of their extremist "doctrines" you will notice the same strident tone like that of Carl Stevens speaking of people who left his church.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

How about listening to Jesus instead of Carl?
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell - Matt 10:28

Carl doesn't have power over you, unless you give it to him. He cannot kill you (if he doesn't stab you with a knife etc.), or make you lame or mute, only God has that power. The only thing he can do is to make you afraid and through fear keep you in bondage to himself. God warned us that the fear of men is a snare and that we should fear God more than a man for He is the one who has power over you.

If I were Carl, I would be very afraid right now because it is soon time for him to meet his maker. Maybe his own fear has made him addicted to drugs in an attempt to escape his guilty conscience. No one is able to escape the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8) especially a person who claims to be a Christian.

Susanna

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Yeah Susanna, Word has it that the liquid waves are running a little thin these days; that they might not even be there at all.

[Nancy Curra (141.157.46.43)]

Susanna Although you are correct in what you say many of us heard him say it over and over again in services and raps. A subtle fear starts entering the subconscious and builds up over time, then when you hear or see something that is off you start to believe your off and will be punished by God for disagreeing with Carl Stevens. I've been there and so have many others. It takes time and a washing of God's Spirit to cleanse ours minds, souls and spirits of all the garbage we've heard over the years. You left quickly and were not subjected to the subtlety of spiritual manipulation. It happens to good Christians believe it or not. And we must be careful never to judge because no one is perfect and anyone can be deceived and we all have those blind spots, some different than others. Have mercy on the deceived and pray for us human beings.

[Nancy C (141.157.46.43)]

P.S. God puts men in authority to preach and teach us. When you believe you are under God's man you tend to trust the words he speaks. You trust what your pastor teaches you Susanna, right? Scripture tells us not to privately interpret but be taught and the woman was the one deceived in the garden not the man. So if we trusted and believe what Carl Stevens said it was because we trusted and believed God called this man. I am saying this kindly not with malice. It just needed to be said for anyone who reads these posts so they don't condemn themselves for falling under the spell of GG.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I agree, my friend and I have this saying."We could almost laugh at all of this if it wasn't true." I consider myself rather street smart, somewhat cynical, believing none of what I hear and only half of what I see. After I accepted Jesus, my life was changing, I was in love like never before, so I went to everything and anything just to hear the word. Little by little, never saw it ccomming, they looped me. planting little fears in the subconscience, using the same phrase over and over. Both my friend and I nearly went through a divorce over this church, our children suffer greatly. She is in therapy, while I walk around popping ativans, hoping to sleep a whole night. The anger is eating me, the hurt knawling at me. some days I laugh hysterically, with tears running down my face wondering where in the hell I was when this all happened. part of it is they keep you so damn busy, leaving barely time to sleep... aghhh 12:24 time for another ativan