Greater Grace World Outreach Missions News

[Anonymous (4.139.15.102)]

Can someone PLEASE answer a question?

Why do missionaries overseas rarely receive a dime from Baltimore's home base ADMINISTRATIVE organization? Do our tithes go toward the cause of the Great Commission or detoxification and hush money?

The pulpit continually extols going into to ALL the world! They happily hold their greedy little palms out two times a service, three times a week and more for money in the name of this cause.

I am all for the Great Commission; however, I do NOT support misrepresentation and dishonesty!

Some missionaries have received NOTHING in the way of financial support from the administrative organization known as the Greater Grace World Outreach Missions Office. True, they are told they will be "tent makers" while on the field.
But WHY do the pastors tell homebase body that their money will send the gospel into all the world?

Many missionaries support has come from the generous contributions of loving body members who had to earmark their tithes and offerings for a particular individual; in fear of the missionary being forgotten.


So where is all the money going received for tithes and offerings? To pay GGCA teachers? I think not! They get paid $20.00 a day for their services!

To renovate the chapel? UGH, look around you?

It appears these tithes and offerings are NOT going to missions and are unaccounted for!

I know there are a zillion pastors on staff at GGWO. I also know that VERY few are paid employees but sincerely believe they are serving God's cause.

Perhaps I am wrong and the money is used for missions after all! Maybe: Dr. Lewis, one of the Pastors Stevens, Pastor Scibelli or Pastor Schaller are flying FIRST CLASS somewhere in the world to share the AWESOME gospel of "Pastor" to keep his memory alive!!

MISSIONS NEWS
GUAYAQUIL - EQUADOR

After the 2004 South American conference Greater Grace Quayaquil church closed it's doors forever. Why?

Could it be that Equadorian believers; who are facing a severe economic crisis, terrorism at the hands of Columbians and Third World country issues, were presented the "gospel". You know what I mean; teary diatribes describing "Pastor,"the drug addicted old man in a bad wig and remembering Lenox!! PLEASE!!! I'm afraid "Pastor" worship, standing ovations and an overuse of the word "AWESOME" just didn't provide the comfort the Equadorian people so desperately sought and needed! Hence the exodus!!

Sad but true!! Of course you would NEVER find this out via the mouths of leadership. No EVERYTHING is AWESOME!!!

Get real Greater Grace Baltimore and start telling yourselves the truth!

We were created to worship God! If not him; something else will take its place!!

What's it gonna be?

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Honest questions !!!
In reference to your questions, please check out the posting board entitled Board of Directors - Audit Review under GGWO subtopics for some related discussion. You may find it interesting.
Also, thank you for your thought provoking post.

[Anonymous (4.139.3.179)]

Dear 198.81.26.106,

Thanks for the recommendation. It was most informative!

[Sam Spsde (201.128.190.207)]

I, as a missionary of GGWO, recieve support from homebase. Of course, it is not nearly enough to keep us on the field, but it is a great help.

I think that you raise a good question about financial accountability and transparency, and believ that is a needed area of reform considering our testimony as a church.

I also believe that your sand-throwing at Pr. Scibelli and Schaller is uncalled for and unethical. There is no evidence, that I know of, of misuse of GGWO tithes and offerings, much less that anyone has profited unduly from them.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.20)]

Sam,

Sorry my experience with Scibelli and Schaller has been that they are just as guilty as Pastor Stevens when it "comes to egos on parade!'"

Though I do appreciate your support of the idea for more financial accountability. I recommend the Board entitled "Board of Directors-Audit Review-...it is very informative.

[Anonymous (141.157.75.224)]

We hope to all use only one Thread again for everything. This is too confusing. Please use only Thread 9.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.183)]

Can anybody tell me; is it true that the church that Pastor Hadley started in Equator is gone?

[pop (80.74.209.79)]

Some missionaries get free tapes.

[Anonymous (4.139.90.80)]

Is it true that the church Pastor Hadley founded in Ecuador is gone?

[Anonymous (4.139.90.80)]

Tell me 80.; are you able to "barter" for "nonessentials" like: food and shelter for these "valuable" tapes?

[Anonymous (4.139.18.209)]

Well are you?

[Sam Spade (200.39.208.216)]

4.139,
I cherish the tapes I've received. Mt 4:4. I also think that it is reprehensibly evil of you to slander Prs. Scibelli and Schaller.

Get a heart. Get a life. Get right.
Your own bitterness is eating you alive.
Sam Spade

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sammy S. You are probably a missionary who has been unable to see what many have seen for years concerning Schaller. He can taste having the reigns of this ministry when his mentor either dies or mentally can't handle it anymore. Secret aprobation lust fits T.Schaller like a well oiled glove, he'll bowl anyone over that doesn't see his vision come to pass. Example: Pastor Paul

[Sam Spade (200.39.208.246)]

64.12,
As far as I know (from various comments on this board) Pr. Paul was removed by the entire board of directors for trying to diss his father in the pulpit. That was not only unethical and unbiblical, smacking of the crudest of Absolomian ambition, it was also just plain stupid. Duh!

As for Pr. Schaller, I can't think of anyone who is more absent of aprobation lust. You've got to be wacked to say such a thing. How on earth did you conjure such an accusation out of your little heart?

[Anonymous (64.12.116.66)]

Sammy I'm tired of you "know it all missionaries" who only get their information from the spin of the likes of the Schaller's who love disinformation if it promotes them. Pastor Paul was trashed and lied about. The bylaws were altered to help him find the door. I hope Paul was smart enough to have kept a record of all so that one day (if your not too blind to see it)you'll see the truth. By then you probably won't even care. So enjoy the lies, you deserve them.

[Sam Spade (200.39.208.237)]

So now all we missionaries are "know-it-alls?" My only information about the latest turmoil, has come from this bopard, the majority of which is inhabited by the likes of yourself. You are only getting shriller and less comprehensible.

Why not calm down, and try to reason with me? How was Pr. Paul lied about? What was not true about my assertion about his pulpit gaff?

And you still have not answered me to defend your slander about Prs. Scibelli and Schaller.

[Sam Spade (200.39.208.236)]

I am waiting 64.12. You talk as if you have access to all kinds of information. I am waiting to hear it.

[Sam Spade (200.39.208.249)]

64.12 (or others of like ilk)
Are you stonewalling me? Are these questions off-limits? is there a conspiracy of silence here?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Sorry Sammy. I have been looking back thru some of the posts and I see that yours has a certain flavor. Not surprising. What is it that you want to know. You have been on this board since the beginning and you have enough information if you choose to believe it but you do not. That is your problem, not mine! I could go through it all again, but why? Just so you can ignore these things and push them aside and call them lies? Why don't you write P. Paul and ask him to call you. You seem hell bent on believing the worst about him without ever even going to him alone.
Are you afraid? What if you find out he really doesn't have the spirit of Absolom as you early suggested but one of love toward his father? What if he had some proof? Why don't you try that route, it will be more direct and less time comsuming on my part. Frankly, my dear Sammy, I really don't care what you believe. Truth is truth and a lie is still a lie no matter how you want to label or package it.

[Anonymous (4.155.63.30)]

To Sam Spade:
The bylaws of the church were set into motion in 1987 and haven't changed one single bit. When you come to Baltimore for convention check this stuff out for yourself.

Open an email account on yahoo or hotmail and then Post an email address here, and I will send you some interesting stuff to ponder AND the names of those at the church that are "safe" to talk to. The other stuff you can verify on your own. Then you should have a good discerning idea as to the lies you were told tonight by "64."

BEWARE that when you do use that other email addy -- make sure you have a good virus protector on it, these weirdos on here have sent most of the people here virus attachments to their email addys. They play dirty.

Pastor Schaller is a good decent godly man. So is Pastor Marr. I guess this weeks trash object is now going to be Pastor Schaller.

Write soon so you get that info. And I won't send it with a virus either.

"P.M."

[Sam Spade (200.39.208.201)]

64.12,
That's it? That's all you can offer? I am supposed to scroll through 6000 posts because you're too flustered or befuddled to come up with just one defense of your position on the situation with Pr. Paul? It is quite simple - did he or did he not attempt to trash his father, the pastor of the church, from that pastor's very pulpit? Just answer that. (And if Pr. Paul wants to answer, as most assuredly he is lurking here, -he is free to do that too.)

And my "certain flavor" is quite simple too - I am looking for the truth. Apparently you are not able or willing to deliver on that.

And again, you have not even tried to defend your nasty slander of two men who have done nothing but dedicate their lives sacrificially to the minstry of the gospel in the most difficcult parts of the earth. That, again, is reprehensible.


Thanks for the heads up 4.155,
Try me at schnargley@yahoo.com . I don't have a prob with viruses.

[Sam Spade, esq. (200.39.208.190)]

The previous post was addressed to 205.

WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE AT LEAST USE A PSEUDONYM. IT WOULD BE A LOT MORE EASIRE TO IDENTIFY YOU....OR IS THAT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT?

[Anonymous (4.139.3.144)]

Are GGWO missionaries apprised of the allegations and crumbling of their church's infrastructure?

It will a shame when they return from serving on the field to this fiasco!

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

No, the missionaries continue to be lied to about the truth of what is going on in Baltimore.

As one elder said "Those who should know, know and the rest don't need to know."

[Sam Spade (201.129.18.104)]

But, that makes it so much more challenging for us missionaries. We LIKE spiritual warfare!

Bring it on baby!

[SJ (152.163.253.102)]

Do you like being in the dark about things?
Don't you think you should be told what is going on?

[Sam Spade (201.129.18.104)]

Sure I would like to. Actually we received a form letter form Pr. Marr about a month ago anouncing that there would be a special meeting in May to discuss some issues.

Then we got news it was cancelled. That's OK too - we've got enough spiritual warfare in our turf to keep us busy.

Actually, I've known generally what is going for years. We are neither surprised, nor shocked by the current mess. We have faith that God is in control, that he will fix it, that he will get the glory.

[Anonymous (4.139.15.250)]

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."

[Anonymous (4.139.6.40)]

Is the invisible man representing Guayaquil, Ecuador's ministry at convention this year?

[Anonymous (131.207.157.217)]

There is one thing I have been wondering. In the overseas conventions why do the US visitors live in the fanciest hotel in town? I understand that after all it's a vacation and you want to enjoy your time, but wouldn't a reasonable four star hotel be good enough? Why does it have to be 5 stars? People from other countries usually stay in youth hostels.

Another phenomenon is the use of bus transportation. The Americans are ferried between hotel and the convention place by bus even if it would be a nice 15 minutes walk thru a beautiful old city. No uncontrolled touch with the natives allowed? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Kim K. (216.99.185.50)]

Does anyone know what kind of stipend missionaries receive from homebase?

Kim K.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

I was on the missionfield at one time. We raised our own support, but we were "promised" a set amount from homebase missions department. Of course, that promise came from Pastor's own mouth and if I knew then what I know now, I never ever would have taken my small children across the world on a "promise" from his mouth.

We barely survived. We went without food. Somedays existing cheap hot cereal and cheap bread. Because the promised support was cut to less than half once there. (it is an outrage to read the court transcripts and realize they were rolling in money while my chidren went hungry)

We did not last too long on the missionfield under those circumstances and I made a promise to myself that I would never return to the foreign field unless it was under another mission group. And that was when I still stuffing the red flags back in my pockets that kept popping up. Eventually all my pockets were filled with those red flags of warning and we departed TBS/GGWO doors for good!

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

When my husband Greg and I were on the missionfield in '86-87, we received $150/month from a friend in the ministry and $50/month from Pastor Stevens. It was enough for us to meet our basic needs in Mexico City. We were grateful for the support.

[Anonymous (4.139.27.97)]

1986-1987???????? That'i it!
What about now?
Why don't you go on a missionfield today!
I want to know how much money are they going to give you.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

4.139-

Why are you so angry? I was only expressing the facts of our situation. I have been upfront about my issues with the church; this isn't one of them. That doesn't negate anyone else's experience. You can be sure if I had children at the time and they didn't have enough to eat, I would be angry. But thankfully, that was not the case.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I am actually not angry either. I would not trade the "life-experience" of living on foreign soil for anything. I was stating the reality of my GG missionfield experience and the fact I would never serve under such deceitful leaders again. I can look the at the whole of TBS/GGWO, I can take the good with the bad and see that my God was ever with me and led me out and on. God bless you Karen for your clear voice that has revealed God's nature to all of us!

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

I was on the mission field twice, once in the 70s and again in the 80s. The first time I was given an allowance of less than $10 per week, and this was in a western European country. The second time we were sent about $140 per month for a family of four. This amount abruptly stopped coming at the beginning of the Dovydenas thing. In South Berwick, as I mentioned elsewhere, beginning pastors received $25 per week plus room and board, and they turned in all monies received from their weekly Bible studies to Gary Baril. At one time I was conducting six of these including two Sunday services. What a bargain we were.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

I used the $140 to pay for the weekly rental of a bus for the Sunday School.

[in hiding (65.96.56.161)]

Do GGWO missionaries have any kind of health insurance, life insurance or retirement care? What happens when its time for them to come home from the foreign field? Are they able to make the financial transition?

When we decided to leave TBS we were homeless for awhile. It was our decision of course, a bit difficult for our young children to understand. We made it fine but are still playing catch up. Jesus hasn't returned yet and we find ourselves in need of medical care occasionally as well as housing.....you know what I mean.

I'm wondering if there is provision for those in GG that choose to serve sacraficially. Or is it all by faith.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Thank you, 64.12.

I also feel I have to add something. It is an absolute tragedy how many people have been hurt and abused by the ministry. I never knew even a tiny fraction of all the lives impacted until I found this site. But I feel a responsibility to share the good I have received as well. Only the whole truth will set us free. When I was in the ministry, I was one of the fortunate ones who was treated kindly in many ways. I worked on staff for several years before going to Mexico and always had enough. When Greg and I returned to Lenox, we were offered a place to live on campus for two or three weeks and our room and board was free.

And I have to thank Jim and Louise Williams who provided us with most of our support in Mexico and bought us furniture while we were there. And when we came back to attend convention, they opened their home to us. Additionally, Jim offered Greg a job when we returned to the U.S. And there's Bruce and Robin Moon who brought a contact lens with them to Mexico when they learned that one of mine had ripped. (I certainly knew they didn't have an abundance of money.) These are all kindnesses I will never forget.

-Karen

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

In Hiding, read the thread "Personal Experiences with the Department of Social Services at GGWO".

I am glad to see that your circumstances have improved and hope that you continue in both your financial and spiritual recovery.

Trust me in this one thing - you don't need to wait for Jesus to return.

He is still there.
He never leaves.
Sometimes we can't see Him.
Sometimes we push Him away.
Sometimes others create the distance.

It really doesn't matter. The gap is never as great as we think it is.

I will pray that you will soon feel His presence.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

In Hiding-

My heart goes out to you. I don't know what provisions are available from GG, but our God's are inexhaustible. I am praying for you and your family.

-Karen

[in hiding (65.96.56.161)]

Karen-
Thank you, it was a long time ago....we are quite well. Just had some lingering questions about the care of missionaries. I know some have been out for a long time and wonder if they could ever return.

Although we never received help from TBS, we received much love and support from our home church.

I believe Jesus's presence is indeed with us.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

I remember the believers I met from other mission boards. There was always an attitude within GG missionaries that the other missionaries stay overseas was a piece of cake, that didn't they have the "real experience." What I observed was they had more time to serve because unlike myself, struggling to find food for my children on a small stipend took much of my time. I also couldn't afford to put them in the missions school and was home schooling them. We had no health insurance, life insurance and not return ticket home. I am not complaining, I loved my time overseas. But I observed this whole mission thing could be handled alot better. When I realize that so many of us struggled financially while the church leaders stood behind that pulpit and begged for money for the missionaries and only to find out that it was used as hush money is a great injustice to God and God's people.

[Anonymous (4.139.18.155)]

What happened to pastor Mark Fellows in Equator!

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

I understand Pastor Schaller never wanted for $.Many branch ministries gave to him monthly as well as at least one very wealthy individual I know of all these years. Wow....

[Anonymous (165.247.101.250)]

To 131.207 Friday, June 11, 2004 - 06:18 am

Don't read to much into it...it's the American culture of comfort and convenience. I was on the field for almost a decade. Did the youth hostile thing for conferences. When I could stay in a nice hotel or take the group bus on occasion it was relaxing and I was grateful for it.

[Anonymous (4.139.12.6)]

FYI Dissidents:

HILARIOUS post found on CONVENTION 2004 board a must read!

[Bob Brinton (151.203.188.73)]

My wife Mary worked in the print shop while I was in Bible school and the years following. She got $15 a week and room and board for both of us. In 1984 we went with the choir to France for a week, and I felt led to go back there; but I never felt led to raise money. To this day, I still don't believe that missionaries should have to raise their own funding. They should be allowed to give their attention to what they are called to do and the people they have been given to serve. As an aside, I have heard that there's a section of southern India that is so poor that mission boards will not send missionaries there. I guess the boards didn't learn much from Mother Teresa, who would minister to dying people of all different religions that had nothing to give her except the 'suffering Jesus' she saw in their faces. Maybe the Catholic Church is more compassionate to the poor. We never did return to France; but that's okay. I think the Lord just wanted us to be willing and to prepare in obedience to Him. The only people I remember offering to support us monthly were my mother (who has her rest in the heavenlies) and Bob and LuAnn Herring. I always had the impression that almost everyone in 'the Ministry' was living on shoe strings, and we were taught to isolate ourselves from family and those outside (other than witnessing to them). How on earth did anyone ever get out to 'the field'? Love, Bob

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

I wanted to correct some previous infor. I presented here yesterday. I talked to Greg last night about our support and apparently I mis-remembered. Our total income was approx. $200/month, but we drew from a lump sum that we'd received from several sources--the ministry, our private supporter, and money we'd earned from a booth at convention.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

To those that may not know about Will Leonards health:

We have heard thru emails from Judy to family, that Will has Typhoid. Judy says this is better than Hepatitis. He's had this before and this time was not as bad. He has been in hosp, lost weight but will be released soon and will reschedule his trip to the states.

We are grateful for all the prayers

[talkintruth (205.188.117.20)]

We are praying Lee. Keep us posted.
TT

[Anonymous (4.139.90.107)]

Welcome to Baltimore visiting GGWO missionaries!

We at this forum are glad that you decided to visit Factnet.org

This little "peek" will present the other side of current and former issues happening at "home base" while you were away.

We at this forum hope and pray that a revelation of the truth will be experienced!

God Bless You All-

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Lee...

You and Jack can count on Scott and I to pray for Will. Please do keep us updated?

Roberta

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Roberta, and all others that have prayed:

Will writes that he is now feeling better after Judy took him to a different Dr and this one put him on different antibiotics....he's feeling better, the fevers are gone, the liver is less tender. His strntgh is finally beginning to come back.

He will try to reschedule his trip to the US.

thanks to all

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Great news lee.
Will and Judy and sweathearts....

[PGlajfoiwqj (69.67.254.38)]

are sweathearts....sorry

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

ha ha hahha sweethearts???? Maybe spelling lessons are needed here

[Anonymous (67.249.230.147)]

Can anybody tell what happened with pastor Mark Fellows and his church in Guayaquil?????????

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

i was wondering if some missionaires ''fabricate'' some stories ..because i heard at testimony at gg newark for a certain missionary couple ..however the same exact story is written a a book called ''Jesus Freaks'' ..could it be coincidence ..or did they take the story from there .. i'm not accusing just wondering ...no offense intended....

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

another question? how come the missionaries do not learn the language of the local people.. preaching to them in english, they won't understand...

[Anonymous (67.249.230.241)]

Good points...also if you ever inquire HOW MANY people belong to these overseas "churches" they consist of from one to five people!

Is that a church or just a Bible study?

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

good point ..

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

except the Lord build the house they labor in vain that build it

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

TO 69, 2:32pm,
When they preach in English they have an INTERPRETER of course.
Pastor Scibelli explained recently why he has never learned a word of African...he said there are so many dialects, that if you start to learn one and go around the corner..it's a different language again! He would rather spend the time doing other things and preaching with interpreters

[Anon B (64.12.117.20)]

One would think that a missionary living in a foreign country would learn at least ONE word in the local dialect.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I am sure they do learn a smattering of words, but not the whole of each langusge. I remember when my friend Arden LeBlanc was preparing to go to Holland to join the team there, she learned a number of key phrases and such, but needed the use of an interpreter for longer conversations.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Yes, Anon B, I am sure that they do learn at least ONE word. If you call P.Scibelli, he MAY even be able to give you two or three African words.
But you can't really preach a message with one word, you would need to be fairly fluent, and that would take a long long time, especially if there were so many dialects as there are in Africa

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Last time I went to Holland I learned how to say "eighty eight stoves." But I can't spell it.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

88 stoves...

nothing like 99 luftballoons, I imagine

[JD Skeet (64.12.117.20)]

Great. Thanks. Now I'm going to be singing that to myself all night...

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

nope

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I seem to be having that affect on people of late, JD...*g*

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Skeeter you need to answer your mail.

[JD Skeet (64.12.117.20)]

Well, next time mention a song that I know all the words to so I don't have to keep singing the chorus over and over again...

And STOP! Cordell, stop right there. I do not need to have the lyrics posted ofr me.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

While I am away try pronouncing this:

Rhosllanerchrugog

I used to live there. It was not far from
Llanfairpwllgwyndrobwchllantysiliogogogoch.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"thinks of the tune to the chicken dance."

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

but what about a group in china that claims to be living there for years and knows no mandarin chinese at all....

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

doo doo doo doo...da da da da

[Anonymous (67.249.224.14)]

Scibelli's three words in African dialect are probably: "ME"... "MYSELF" & "I"

By the way "O'Malley" is the word for "liar" in the West African Ghanian language of Gaa (sp?).

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

You are so ignorant..You don't know the first thing about Pastor Scibelli or his life.

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

Ahh...........But we do.

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

Ignorant is as ignorant does my dear...if you want to continue to squeeze your eyes tightly shut, stick your fingers in your ears and hum the "Star Bangled Banner" to yourself; while others try to warn you about an "egomaniac" well...guess you'll "reap what you sow"...

No doubt someday you will regret not heeding the many warnings given on this board though!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Oh yes, thank you for warning me about P.Scibelli! He is such an egomaniac, imagine going and living under primitive conditions in Africa to spread the gospel, HOW egocentric can you get! Imagine the luxury of contracting cerebral malaria while there, added to a stroke....he probably did that just for the ATTENTION, so when God healed him he could brag about it. Wow, you are so discerning...I never would have realized it without you. Thanks for the heads up. RIGHT!
You really disgust me...you are not worthy to tie his shoelaces.
"Reap what you sow"? you don't know the meaning of that..yet

[Tweedledee (12.34.239.243)]

gollygee is chicken curry in China

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

"Touche"...

However, the ONLY shoelaces I worry about tying are Jesus Christ's! No MERE MAN floats my boat honey! Guess you're still blinded by the pyrotechnics, spotlights and "RUSH" of the atmosphere as the masses raise their hands and bottoms in "PRAISES" which surround him everytime he gets up to speak at GGWO! Please pass me a barf bag QUICK! [Just about lost my dinner over that thought...]

I have heard your "beloved" Pastor S shoot down the hopes and dreams of MANY missionary wanna-bes. Furthermore, he has a "lovely" habit of ditching mission teams just about to depart for the field. Oops, gotta go...by yourself! It doesn't matter if these individuals are woman.

Has Pastor Scibelli even acknowledged or given the time of day to a pastor who moved here from Ghana about a year or two ago? NOPE!!! Guess he's trying to avoid the inevitable embarassment caused by the memory of his MOST intrusive attempts to interfere and play God; thus preventing this pastor's marriage to an American teacher who happened to go to GGWO! Frankly, it didn't work BUT...this relationship was NONE OF HIS BUSINESS! He nearly destroyed this man's call, if he hasn't already done that, with his meddling and insensitive "power trip!"

Finally, "beloved" Scibelli kissed the wife of a GGWO pastor on the mouth while ALL looked on and laughed! Sadly, This "crazed hubby"; who idolizes Scibelli to a fault, had given him permission, which puts him on the bottom of the foodchain, kinda like Nebuchanazer with Vashti! Despite the "generous offer" of his wife; Scibelli continues to treat this pastor with disdain and contempt, much like a cruel master to his unwanted dog!


What terrible embarassment for this poor wife and Linda!!!!

Hope these experiences shared will shed a new light on your perceptions of this EGOMANIAC!

Evidently, you have'nt been on the "downside" of that ENORMOUS ego...

...but you will be!

Guess you can always rationalize his behavior as being caused by the delirium of malaria or damage to his frontal lobe from the stroke!

P.S Bet he's trained that nasty bird at his house to say "You're AWESOME Pastor Scibelli" kinda like he's trained his worshipper's at GGWO!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

You are a hateful liar just like your father

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

yes, it's true...and my name is Paul Stevens!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Wrong IP number, sorry.. not Paul

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

I've had the decency to NOT name names up until now...but if you continue to call me a "liar" I will be left no alternative but to list the people involved and YOU MAY ASK THEM FOR YOURSELF...what's it gonna be big boy?

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

...isn't there a proverb that states, "...if a retort has no truth it will roll off just like water off of a ducks back."...

...perhaps you're a "little" "tinsey" bit defensive because you KNOW that what I've written about Scibelli is all fact and NOT fiction!

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

...yes, and I dare touch "God's anointed" with the truth!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Oh, that is so intimidating...you are going to name NAMES now? That will really make a difference because you have such credibility that of course we can all believe the names are legitimate. I would not even call what you say fiction, I would call it evil twisted LIES.
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it"
(John 8:44)

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

'Dr.' Lewis and Tom Schaller indicated to those of us in the Lee church (Berkshire Bible Church, not Greater Grace) at the time that it was okay for them to lie to us if it was 'for our own good'. Guess that tells you something about their dad. wuvvies, Bob Brinton

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Bob,
What does "indicated" mean? Is this your own perception of things? Why don't you be a little more specific since you are INDICATING that Pastor Schaller and Dr. Lewis have the devil as their father. Is that very "wuvving" BOB?

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

A. Bob who attends GGWO and was once engaged to Valerie witnessed Scibelli SMASH the dreams of a "hopeful" missionary at a Wednesday night "discipleship" class after church service at the Youth Hut formerly known as the Pizza Hut!

B. Denise Sprigg-Dockmeinifpoor's engagement WAS "dabbled with" by Scibelli and his henchmen while teaching in the international school in Ghana!

C. Denise's NOW husband from Ghana has all but been stripped of any pastoral responsibilities since his arrival to Baltimore almost two years ago! WHY?

D.Pastor Dan Cergioni is treated like dirt by Scibelli. Often told and I quote,"I don't want you for a disciple; so DON'T come around me ANY MORE...I want new disciples."

E. Cergioni permitted Scibelli to kiss his wife Marilyn Cergioni on the mouth upon arrival from the mission field at the airport. YUCK! How dare he dishonor his wife Linda and this woman!

F. Dr. Wanda Simmons-Clemmons and Amber, the young, blonde nurse who is dating Bill who works in food service at the Fellowship Hall, were left stranded at the airport minutes before departuring for Africa...needless to say Scibelli was NOT to go overseas with these and other women after all because he said and I quote, "God said he shouldn't go." PLEASE!

G. Scibelli interferes with women who would like to have a relationships with African GGWO men when actually it is NONE OF HIS OR THE OTHER GGWO PASTOR BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just ask some of the women at GGWO if this is true!

Go ahead now and coroborate these facts!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

It means they said it.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Bob,
Dr.Lewis and P.Schaller said that they could lie to you for your own good, according to you. This of course, is hearsay.
YOU said that their father is the devil. This is not hearsay but fact, in black and white on your post.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

67,
Why don't YOU corroborate your so-called facts?
Your writing these things does not make them true just because you used real people's names. We all know how so-called "facts" can be twisted and misrepresented. Were you a first-hand witness to all these supposed incidents? You DO get around, don't you

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

Quit trying to divert attention from the "Scibelli" issues with this baloney about Schaler and Lewis. And by the way, guess it wasn't "very wuvving" of you to call me the child of the father of lies *******!

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

Yes, I was a firsthand witness...apologies accepted!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

Believe whatever you want.

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

Ya know Bobby you're right! Guess these "fools" are gonna choose to believe their "cock-n-bull" lies as well! Thanks for your support of efforts toward the cause of truth and justice!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

67,
Your own posts are what revealed that about you, not me.

Bob,
Typical impotent response from you. I was simply reiterating what YOU posted

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

I feel sorry for you. Rather a bit of confusion. There's a difference between hearsay and personal testimony. I was there, and so were many others. You can label anything in the 'cosmos' a lie, but that doesn't make you accurate in your assessment. Have a nice bondage. Bob

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Bob,
It is hearsay to me and to anyone reading your post who was not there. I feel sorry for YOU, because you do not seem to have any real personal convictions but only echo what is the popular opinion of the board, while so clearly "kissing up" to the stronger personalities on it. THAT to me is bondage

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

Amen to what Bob says, "Have a wonderful bondage and enjoy the fantasy while it lasts."

67

[Anonymous (67.243.135.154)]

...or according to your perceptions 64...

666

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Thanks for signing your name at last. You know how frustrating anonymous posts can be

[Anon Brief (64.12.117.20)]

Bob is credible with many of us. He has revealed his love for the Lord often. He has never resorted to personal attacks, even when baited. He has communicated with kindness and integrity, unlike many others.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Bob was there and was a witness. There were others. This is not hearsay. You are obviously trying one of those GG "Jedi" tricks aren't you?
You wouldn't know evidence if it smacked you upside the head.

[Anonymous (67.243.135.13)]

Well 64...why not sign your name too..by the sounds of your perverse twisting of the facts at hand; I'd venture a guess that you are possibly one of the "Pastors" who monitor this board!

Guess I touched a nerve when I dared expose one of GGWO's "sacred cows" like Scibelli...

I don't think God is done exposing...certainly the truth about you "yahoo's" will be said come judgement day! Remember..."double honor; double judgment...and frankly, Mr. Scibelli has offended me deeply by the behavior he has demonstrated and the chaotic wreckage observed!

To think, many of we posters have had to silently endure a broken heart all of these years! Thank you Jesus for Factnet and a place to voice our grievances! Though they may not always be pleasant, at least there is now a safe place to voice our traumas experienced!

The shunning, rejection, manipulation and interference...I'm afraid the list goes on and on... for many here!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Bob's statements are credible and can be believed.

Dean Lewis has said the same thing to me and others over the years on a number of issues.

Dean Lewis personally told me when I questioned a particular exegetical exercise Stevens concocted in a service...I was studying Greek at the time at SSB, that Carl was under the annointing and it okay for him to not say the true meaning. I was also told never to question his exegesis again.

Just because you don't believe Lewis said it doesn't mean it isn't true.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Folks,

I emplore EVERYONE on this board, including all present GGWO people to read "Exegetical Fallacies" (2nd Edition) by D.A. Carson. If you have every sat through Pastor Stevens' "Applied Bible Doctrine" (ABD) OR "Ethics from Divine Viewpoint" (EDV) classes then you have already been inculcated with much incorrect exposition.

Carson's work is a great first step in helping to "unlearn" the Stevens' take on Bible doctrine AND get restablished on a sound, proven foundation.

After having spent many years in GGWO (including several semesters of highly-focused study in ABD), I conclude the following regarding Pastor Stevens' doctrine:

Some of the key doctrines that distinguish GGWO from other evangelical ministries (even such ministries that have a nearly identical "Statement of Faith") are in fact difficult to substantiate in light of the best traditions of conservative evangelical scholarship. Examples include Pastor Stevens' detailed explanations of the "Bema seat" experience; his teachings on the "demon armies"; over-arching applications of anthropo-morhisms/pathisms (i.e. drawing "precise" applications by comaring human physiology and psychology with Scriptural descriptions of the attributes of God OR Biblical metonomy); the spurious notion that the Pastor-Teacher will present the believer to Jesus Christ at the Bema seat; an over-amplification of delegated authority; a misplaced understanding of what it means for a believer to be baptized "into the Body"; and many, many more. The real issue here, is that these doctrines are part-in-parcel of what "sets GGWO apart," yet they also serve to establish Pastor Stevens' "special authority" in the pulpit and as the top leader of a world-wide ministry. It is a fact that Pastor Stevens is not a true scholar in the original languages or an authority on historical Christianity. No doubt, Pastor has sincerely and prayerfully studied the Bible and related resources for many 10,000's of hours in his lifetime. However, has he consistently been accountable to a proven group of men with established conservative evangelical credentials? It is a fact that his Doctorate is not earned, but honorary. This is troubling when we consider the nearly unquestioned authority that GGWO body members give Pastor Stevens' doctrine. Has he ever been published for critical review in a single recognized Theological Journal? Does Pastor Stevens read the Hebrew and Greek texts fluently and does he truly understand the rules of grammar to the point where he can consistently avoid exegetical fallacies? In view of Pastor Stevens' many fine, positive ministerial qualities (not to mention the unusual personal investment he has made in 1000's of lives - mine gratefully included), these issues would not be a problem; except that his doctrines are consistently represented by GGWO as "unique and very special," "totally anointed," and "straight from God". Doctrine is "the currency" of any real Biblical Ministry and this why it is so important that a ministry not teach "strange doctrines" (Heb 13:9). There are many sound evangelical scholars in this country. In the spirit of Acts 15, would it not help establish credibility for GGWO to submit their key differentiating doctrines for review to a selected group of these scholars? One might ask, "why is all this important as we see the world-wide fruit of folks getting saved and the Gospel going forward?" Without drawing into a long and tenuous argument, I'll overstate the answer with the following hyperbole: "... because Jesus Christ LOVES HIS ENTIRE BODY, not just the tiny, tiny portion that GGWO represents." It is critical to build bridges with as many others who "desire to live Godly lives in Christ Jesus." It is a fact that having questionable doctrine, coming primarily from the pulpit of one man, a man already laden with so much controversy, continues to alienate GGWO from other sound evangelical churches and ministries.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

If everything that you do not personally witness is hearsay to you, then truth depends solely upon your presence. Makes you a pretty big fish. Last I heard there was a two or three witness thing. Oh, but that's Old Testament. You've graduated. A little Post-Modern, isn't it?

I did not mean to say or imply that Lewis and Schaller are unbelievers. Jesus told His own disciples that they didn't know what spirit they were of; and addressed Peter as Satan. When you lie, you are conveying something from the other kingdom. If I lie, I do the same thing. Stevens taught for years that it was 'okay to lie to the devil'. That is one of those doctrines of demons. That doesn't mean Stevens is possessed. God does not lie. Lying in His name is misrepresenting Him. If you are lying, you're not doing it for God.

Greater Grace is not the only place that has this problem. When I was in my early twenties and not yet part of TBS, my brother and I ran across a tract or a booklet from someone whose name you'd recognize. His ministry has had great impact and led many to Christ. He said that if anyone started smoking pot, they'd end up on heroin. Now, how many on this board have smoked pot (raise your hands)? How many have done heroin (raise your hands)? There seems to be an enormous difference in the number of hands raised. Something doesn't fit. Doesn't winning souls make you truthful? ...selah

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Bob,

Who are you addressing in your last post?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.103)]

To Anon 64.12.117.20; but there seem to be different posters from that number. He posted at 11:53 pm in response to my post just above that. Bob

[Anonymous (172.136.71.179)]

I was a witness in front of Fellowship Hall one day when I heard several men of the "African Team", all pastors, by the way, joke deplorably about the size of African woman's breasts. With me that night after the rap was a new Bible college student, who is still with us today. She was so confused and embarrassed and I stupidly said something to her to cover their antics. I quite honestly was afraid to go to them alone because they quite ofter embarrass me. I am a long time congregant and now because of letting it pass by it was never dealt with. I had a healthy fear of men especially in authority in GG. There are some very loving pastors who I should have gone to but Bible protocol is to go to the offenders first and I was very much afraid to do so. Sorry I have to post this one anonymously. I wish I didn't. But so much chaos now, this wouldn't help just hurt more people, including the young girl who was with me that night. It was 2 years ago. I am sorry for my cowardice then because I was mortified.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Let's hope that you have now gained enough sense to come out from among them and be ye separate!

[Anonymous (67.243.131.46)]

Dear 172,

Thank you for stepping forward onto the board and speaking the truth. That took tremendous courage; considering how we were, and some are still, taught to see respecting and honoring these "Pastors" is likened to respecting and honoring God.[Here we go again with the "implied" twisted doctrines of Delegated Authority]
You are a very brave person and you are not alone my dear. I am deeply saddened and sorry to hear that they embarassed and humiliated you and your charge so! I too have had many occassions for embarassment at the hand of pastors at GGWO; Pastor Carl H. Stevens, Jr. included.
Unfortunately, presently the "system" at GGWO is setup so that are no "checks" and "balances" are in place to make these "leaders" accountable for behavior which violates their call.

That is why I have dared to speak out in truth.
I am hoping others will be warned and realize that it is NOT biblical to worship these mere men but God alone! (Is. 48:10) paraphrased states,
"I will not share my glory with another"
Think that INCLUDES: Scibelli, Stevens, Schaller and the other "heros" at GGWO.
Thanks again for your courage to speak out in truth. May God divinely direct you and heal your broken heart and disappointment.

Anon 67

[Nancy Curra (172.133.47.136)]

thank you anon 67

I know that God is faithful and am thankful for my present condition. It forced me to look up. We may be attacked on all sides by the enemy but by God's grace there is no ceiling. we can always look up, and like the little bird, we are set free. I am so thankful beyond words that I have been freed to speak the truth and such a weight has been lifted and the fear of these is slowly subsiding.

I fear 172 is not anonymous for some have chosen to search out my liberty on my other posts so in the future I will simply post with my name.

It will save the one's who believe God has chosen to be spies.

[Anonymous (63.27.14.137)]

Are there any american missionaries and pastors in Equador??????????????????????

[Anonymous (200.117.192.192)]

There are no American missionaries or pastors currently in Equador. Pastor Fellows felt that he could do no more to sort out the mess left by the prior pastor and so is now in Chile or soon will be co-laboring with the team there.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Where are you getting your information (and spelling skills) from? Pastor Mike Stevens is in Ecuador with some others

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

pray

[Anonymous (63.27.79.5)]

And where do YOU get your information dummy? Pastor Mike Stevens is in Florida and NO ONE from "homebase" is in Ecuador serving the people at this time!

[Anonymous (63.27.79.5)]

As a matter of fact, WHY isn't Pastor Hector Eduardo Valle going BACK to help his own people in Guayaquil since they have no pastor and are facing a severe economic crisis?

Does the fact that he has a deaf daughter make him any different than everyone else who has been deported or demanded to return to their own country after bible college?

This is just another example of the hypocritical, preferential treatment dished out by Greater Grace Baltimore! Guess having the dean of MBC&S [his former pastor] swing a deal with the INS helped!

[Anonymous (207.156.7.90)]

We served almost 3 years and received one check for $40. Nothing was promised, so I'm not complaining. The biggest problem with the system is when missionaries get sick. Another minor irritation was scraping up the money to see "Pastor" and his entourage at the best hotels when the locals were dirt poor or in some cases not allowed into the Western palace.

[Anonymous (63.27.19.162)]

That's terrible 207!

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

207,
That is so true. Many missionaries really gives all of their life for missions and that's why
is really hard to came back. If you came back, you see different church with big problems and have $40.

[jerry springer (165.247.101.171)]

i would like to invite all of you to my show keep up the drama

[Anonymous (63.27.85.116)]

There is a "drama" and injustice when people are being used and thrown away by an organization who pockets proceeds while claiming to help others worldwide!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I agree wholeheartedly with you on that Anon 63.

[Anonymous (63.27.28.220)]

There's an overseas GGWO missionary I know who has a heart condition. He's serving in a VERY poor country and NO ONE is helping him!

Shame on GGWO missions department for turning a deaf ear to the health and retirement needs of their missionaries. No other mission board would allow such a disgrace!

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Maybe we could. We can pray for him, what is his name? Maybe we could do something.

[Anonymous (24.91.61.194)]

There is also an overseas missionary
with a heart condition that GG
has raised thousands to help
but obviously you just want
the bad news.
~D~

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Well, we all know that GGWO will help some and not others, and that is just plain wrong.

[Anonymous (24.91.61.194)]

Well, if you were the one helped I'm sure you wouldn't complain.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Being grateful for assistance is irrelevant.

Assistance should be available for ALL and administered equitably.

[Anonymous (24.91.61.194)]

Move to a communist country then.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Sounds like you've found a little something "extra" under the Christmas tree a few times yourself.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

I heard about that missionary. How is he doing?
did he have his surgery?

[Anonymous (63.27.31.89)]

The thousands you speak of were raised for P. Ellis from St.Petersburg Russia.

Evidently, he had a prior medical problem in Russia and the problem recurred DURING convention. An emergency surgery at Hopkins was needed BUT since Ellis wasn't a Russian citizen he had to come up with $25,000.00 for the surgery!

GGWO church offices once again DID NOT have that kind of cash on hand [where does all this money go P.Duff?] so ONCE AGAIN leadership held out their grubbly little hands and relied on the generosity of the blinded and trusting "body"!

WHY GGWO did NOT have this money available in an emergency missionary fund we will never know...God knows they have two offerings per service and sometimes a "special" offering at the doors!

No, the missionary with the heart condition is NOT getting any help and the "church" is NOT sending him any recent Bible school graduates to help with his call!

What a farce!

[Anonymous (63.27.31.89)]

This "farce" as an example of WHY GGWO makes me SICK!!!! Use the poor fools who work at low wages so they can be brainwashed in fellowship hall while fatcats like Taylor have cheap "slave labor" so that he can "slip" Stevens a little payola for "consulting." All the while missionaries and the poor at "homebase" have little to nothing if a need arises...

What a bunch of CRAP!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

they have plenty of money. Pastor offered Pastor Paul last week a $100,000 a year if he didn't leave. They are afraid of what Paul could prove about how corrupt they are. They have lots of money in the bank. What a bunch of crooks! After hearing that and Wednesday's service I will never go back there.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

My family and I went through a minor tradgedy about a year ago - the greater grace ministry we were affiliated with did not offer any assistance. Only ONE friend of the family called and came over to help....the rest of the body (that we know well) didn't even call.

The church we had attended a few years prior got wind of what happened to us - and sent us a check for 600.00. This is a SMALL church - that has a fund for "benevolent" needs.

We were blown away by their caring! (and the lack of caring of GGWO people).

That is one of my GREATest pet peeves about GGWO. That the "in-reach" is lacking..... everyone is so bent on "bringing them in"...that they forget to look around to minister to the ones IN the BODY that need a hand, or just a friend.

"By THIS all will know that you are my disciples - if you have LOVE for one another."
John 14:35

signed,

searching

[Anonymous (4.175.210.160)]

They never offered Pastor Paul money to stay. You do not know what you are talking about. I am very close to the center of things and that is a lie.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

they didn't but his father did

[Anonymous (63.27.2.98)]

4.175,

Since you are very close to the center of things please advocate on behalf of changes in polity to preserve the precious and innocent missionaries and other people who are counting on this church. PLEASE DO SOMETHING TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT!

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

I can't believe there are people that are closer to the "center of things" A healthy church is when we are all together, and Christ is our center. The whole congregation should know about the church happenings and money being spent, not just a select few. This is yet another reason on my list of why I decided to leave GGWO after only a month. I continue to pray for all involved and may God richly bless you all.
In Christ,
Another ANON

[NOT STUPID (70.16.13.185)]

Yeah, 4.175

Since you are so close to the center of things why then don't you explain to all of us what the hell is going on around here?????

What really is true, and what is a lie. Sure would be nice to have some kind of concrete answers. Why is our tithe money NOT sent to missionaries? Why is it certain ones have mone;y raised up and given to them or other privileges????? Whose ass are they kissing?? What about that other missionary who needs heart surgery? This church won't help?????? Tell them to take the money out of the new building fund for Gods sake and help out someone who has laid their life down to go overseas!!

My God reading this stuff sometimes ****es me off so stinking bad, my apologies if my post offends anybody but this stuff is getting old and having nobody do a damn thing about any of it except for pastor calling it satanic garbage is ridiculous. How much of people asking for answers and help is now going to be ignored still!! This forum started in April 2004 and its now August 2004 and people have yet to have answers to questions posted on here!!!

Pastor Paul if you are posting on here as "67" and if this is truly you, we want to know whats going on and we want the truth. Is it true that the elders confronted your father last week and demanded his resignation and told him he could no longer preach under the influence of drugs??? Is it true that there were other people listening on speaker phones and that your father went ballistic and said he was going to fire every single one of the elders AND that he was not going to resign and they couldn't make him do it either because of the old by-laws of the church that are still in existance???????

We are hearing these things thru the "grapevine" and we need to know what is really going on. Now all of a sudden, Pastor Butch Veader is made an elder? No offense to P. Stevens having dementia but that was the stupidest thing anybody could have ever done. He is not qualified to be an elder he is a bully, he is arrogant, mouthy, opinionated and a liar and I would tell him this to his face if he was eyeball to eyeball to me. So, is the game now that we bring in one new elder and get rid of another one because the applecart got spilt the other day??????????????

SOMEONE NEEDS TO CLARIFY THIS STUFF ONCE AND FOR ALL. THANK YOU.

And, Pastor Paul, I personally love you dearly and my heart goes out to you for the beating you have taken and the price you have paid. I don't give a hoot about you having an affair, I don't think you need to step down or be chastized because of it, you went to God about it and that is more than good enough for me. However, I do question the motives of the Langs--what kind of skunk (yes I said skunk in reference to Alan Lang here) would TAKE the money????? It amazed me how they slammed you, Pastor Paul, but Margaret and Alan were given nothing but sympathy? Sympathy my ass!! she was equally as guilty with the adultery!!! No-one slammed her like they slammed you over it. And her husband? What kind of christian would sue a church -- i.e. in my opinion it was blackmail because they knew of the Dovydenas scandal and figured the church would pay ANYTHING to not have that story leak out to trash the ministry.

Pastor Paul, God loves you and so do I. When all this is said and done I am going to come out of posting anonymously and I will come to visit you and tell you who I am.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Whoever you are, Not Stupid, you obviously have a lot of sentiment for Paul Stevens. Yes, it takes two to commit adultery. Yes, the parties may have both repented of the activity. Alan Lang was the innocent party who lost job, home, intimacy with his wife and contact with his children because of the actions of Paul Stevens who ABUSED THE OFFICE OF MARRIAGE COUNSELOR WHILE HE WAS COUNSELING THE WIFE OF ANOTHER MAN. He did not so much as take a breath before, during or after the affair in teaching his "Relationship" classes, from preaching, from doing conferences, from hosting "Grace" Hour or any of his pastoral duties. I imagine there are still many who would condemn my posting of the emails between the parties. I am very glad I encouraged the Langs to seek legal representation seeing there was not a single wise man within GG to decide between the brethren at that time, as they appear still to be thin on the ground there now. The kind of Christian who sues a church is a Christian who is being lied about by every single strata of leadership in that organization. Paul, Dan Lewis, Bible College Pres. Hadley, especially Carl Stevens himself, and many others inside GG were complicit in defaming Alan Lang as you are now. Restitution for loss is as biblical as any other doctrine. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">"Repentance" does not consist in saying "Okay, I repent to God, you can't touch me now or bring up my sin--neener neener neener."</FONT> You don't give a hoot about Paul having an affair? What if it was your wife that he told was out of the "geographical will of God because your husband won't live at homebase" and then proceeded to sleep with her under the cover of his office of "counselor?" The difference between the guilt of Margaret Lang and the guilt of Paul Stevens is simple--Margaret Lang does not and has never held office in a church that requires that an elder be a "one woman kind of man," in that he displays an observable quality of faithfulness to his wife. Your post is full of emotion and has little conviction of scripture behind it. And while I certainly respect your right to remain anonymous, I will put my name up yet again to receive your venom full force.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"I imagine there are still many who would condemn my posting of the emails between the parties."

My God, Jim...that was YOU who posted the private emails on this board? YOU?

Before I freak out here from shock, I have one question. What doctrine covers that kind of behavior? Counseling Alan to get a lawyer and sue makes perfect sense, to hold Paul to a biblical standard also makes sense, but the posting of private correspondence of people, no matter who they are, is simply wrong. I am sorry you seem to think that was a right thing to do. How can you possibly justify doing such a thing?

I really didn't realize it was you who did that...

[NOT STUPID (70.16.13.185)]

JF,
In your opinion you state that the guilt of Margaret Lang is different from the guilt of Paul Stevens?????? Adultery is adultery. They both were guilty, EQUALLY before God unless we are now of the catholic faith that differientiates mortal and venial sins here.

You have a sentimental attachment to the Langs as their friend. I am not sentimental towards Pastor Paul, I have been in a lot of prayer and my heart goes out to him with the compassion of Christ. And, I will refrain from assaulting your character for posting those emails of Paul and Margaret, it isn't worth my time. Why i said I don't give a hoot about the affair is because it happened a long time ago -- 6 years, right? Why then am I to judge what God has forgiven people for already?

I don't have to prove scripturally what I think or feel to you who gets off arguing with almost everybody here. You seem to forget a few facts here, JF. Margaret Lang willingly moved to Baltimore, she willingly had that affair as well and before God she is/was no different that if it had been you or I in a similar situation.
Bottom line is, Paul Stevens posted on here that he had gone to God already for forgiveness in that situation. If God remembers our sins no more, than why, Jim, why do you have some unrelenting personal venom against Paul Stevens???

Margaret Lang and her husband, you say were manipulated. Isn't it odd, nobody took the time to ask P. Paul or P. Stevens their side of the story, they readily believe it because YOU posted it. What about Margaret Lang? She never posted either with her side of the story. Those one to one conversations she had with Pastor Paul? Didn't seem to me like she was wanting to be away from him!! I never heard her cry that she was kidnapped or forced to move to MD!! Yes, Alan wanted his wife back. Why wouldn't he if he loved her. All of his story is one sided that "Paul" wouldn't stay away from his wife, well his wife wouldn't stay away from Paul either!! Seems to me he was a bit neurotic by having them spied on and spying on them himself!!

My post is not full of emotion. I see the facts plain and clear and I see your calvanistic way of legalistic thinking. And you who has never sinned, JF, you do well at throwing stones.
I'm not "defaming" Alan anymore than you defamed Paul Stevens. I called him a skunk. You called him (Paul) far worse in previous threads. You had no regard whatsoever for his family and what this would do to them. Obviously it already had happened once before, so it was ok for you to print the emails and dig them thru the mud once again.

Just because God gave me a heart of compassion towards someone's plight doesn't give you the right to comment about it. Perhaps I should have ignored your post, you haven't got Roberta to play with today so now you can rip me apart.

The church, by the way, not only requires just an elder to be a "one woman" kind of man. It requires ALL men to have that statute so get off your high horse.

By the way, the questions on my post were directed at the elders currently in GGWO and to Pastor Paul himself, not to you JF, who seems to be the forum know-it-all.

[NOT STUPID (70.16.13.185)]

Yes Roberta it was JF who posted the lovers emails out of spite.

THANk YOU FOR WHAT YOU WROTE HERE ROBERTA.
IT WAS WRONG OF HIM TO DO THAT.

[Anon B (152.163.253.102)]

Not Stupid, don't attempt to create a rift between Jim and Roberta and divert the discussion.

You are right - guilt is guilt, but the level of responsibility and accountability is not the same for Paul and Margaret for precisely the reasons stated by Jim - abuse of authority.

HE was in a position of authority; she was not.

HE is responsible and accountable for acting in a certain manner by virtue of his role as a counsellor; she was being counselled, and therefore, obviously in a position of vulnerability.

HIS behaviour breached moral, ethical, civil and possibly criminal statutes; hers was agreeably immoral, but that is the limit of her accoutability.

The situation is no different that any other in a counselling or mental health setting. PERIOD.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Anon the B is totally correct. I agree the level of accountability is different for Paul, and while I love Paul and have told him so, it is an abuse of authority issue. I do not think Paul himself would disagree.

[Anonymous (63.27.66.236)]

"...isn't it odd that no one took the time to ask Pastor Paul and P. Stevens their side of the story."

NOT STUPID,

By your own admission, and EXCELLENT questions I might add, that is exactly what this forum has and is trying to do!

Therefore, if provoking the Stevens' family off of their no accountability butts by revealing the sins of daddy and son will produce action and answers then more power to Jim Faucett!

[Anonymous (70.16.13.185)]

ok I concede. My apologies, JF.

What about the rest of my questions regarding the elders asking Pastor to step down. Is that true or not.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"Therefore, if provoking the Stevens' family off of their no accountability butts by revealing the sins of daddy and son will produce action and answers then more power to Jim Faucett!"

You condone the posting of the private emails? Please tell me what biblican doctrine cover such a thing?

[Anonymous (63.27.66.236)]

You're alright NOT STUPID and thanks for voicing such excellent questions...

Now, if only we had some answers!

[Anonymous (63.27.66.236)]

I condone that the leadership is not above reproof and should be made accountable for their many "hidden" sins. Isn't there a verse in the Bible which states, "those things done in the dark will be shone in the light of day."

God is being merciful and lovingly discipling these men by making them accountable before they die!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"God is being merciful and lovingly discipling these men by making them accountable before they die!"

Yes, this statement is so true. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am not comfortable at all with the publishing of the emails is all. For unless, and perhaps he did, Jim had permission from Paul, Margaret and Alan to post them, it was wrong to do so.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

I had permission. And the reason they were posted is that witnesses are required to bring an accusation against an elder--two at the very least but three are better. In the publishing of Alan's Story you have one witness. Margaret Lang is two, but she would do, wouldn't she. Paul in his own hand is witness against himself. Biblical doctrine? Try 1 Timothy 5:19,20. The affair was six years ago. The slander and maligning against Alan and ANYONE AT ALL WHO EVER LEAVES CONTINUES TO THIS DAY AND HAS BEEN HABITUAL FOR OVER TWENTY-FIVE YEARS!! What do you not get? The Alan Lang story is one of the reasons for this whole forum. Go back to the very first post. This is not just about some naughty pastor boinking someone else's wife! This is about WHO IS CALLED TO FEED THE FLOCK OF GOD!!! I have argued that NEITHER Carl or Paul fit the bill required in 1 Timothy 3. I am sick and bloody tired of all the name calling and bickering on this site. Some of you are so busy looking at the bark you can't see the tree! And the axe is laid to the root! If you want to think what I did was spiteful, then you just go right ahead and do the whole "heart reading" that you all are so adept at. I did it because it was biblical. I spoke to Paul Stevens. He wanted to put the ball back in Alan's court. It is not Alan's responsibility to prove that Paul is now an epitome of being a "one woman kind of man" it is PAUL'S responsibility! And Paul knows this. What I don't get is this idea of "Well, I said sorry, can't I just continue on as before?" concept of repentance. When it comes to consistant display of the quality of being a "one woman kind of man" doesn't that at least mean you refrain from pumping your book about how great marriage can be for a few days? Get real. Some of you, no matter what we do will continue to have absolutely no regard for scriptural church discipline and then you will continue your howling about how pitiful things are at GGWO. Did you think they got that way overnight? In the last two years? In the last five or ten? Don't be so ridiculous, what we are seeing is the outward puss from a wound that has been festering in there for many, many years.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Not stupid, you expect an organization that has been covering up the sins of its leader to now call that leader into accountability? Why would they not appoint an elder like Veader? They will keep covering and condoning until CHS shows up to preach in his bathrobe and slippers--and then they'll think it is just a great sermon illustration!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Then if you had permnission from all three involved, I have no quarrel whatsoever with the posting of the letters. Thank you Jim.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

So typical of some (though not all) of the GGWO pastors is to get on here, call us all hateful when we try to call them into accountability--they whine and say how horrible it has been for THEM (never mind anyone else) and then say they'll never post on here again. But they're still lurking.

Even the fellow who started posting all that "Conspiracy" booklet garbage didn't have the huevos to stick around and defend his actions! That booklet, like a lot of the 'Doctrine' you were taught was introduced to inoculate you all from real biblical truth--i.e. that leaders can be called into accountability by the rank and file or any Christian who is accountable themselves and views the behavior!

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I didn't say all three. Paul did not own the emails. Obviously he didn't give permission.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

No, I doubt Paul would. If Alan and/or Margaret were okay with it, though I must say I did find it uncomfortable reading, I cannot quarrel with it. If it needs to be used to call the pastors into accountability, so be it.

[Anonymous (63.27.6.178)]

24.91 aka ~D~ is "D" for Daniel Lewis? Your cold hearted comment and insensitive attitude about going to a communist country for financial provision sounds like him!

He owns three houses, thanks to GGWO, but missionaries have no program for retirement or medical care...this STINKS!

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

I never had a doubt that whatever you did was on the up and up, Jim.
The bickering is tiresome and it gets us not a single step in the right direction. Once again your integrity is without question.
Roberta: Would you mind if I e-mailed you or you can e-mail me, I wanted to send you something you might enjoy. Iz

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Dan Lewis post on here? You gotta be joking.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Sure Izzie

srfern@verizon.net

[Anonymous (209.23.222.165)]

To Anon 4 and all who began this dicussion;
My husband grew up on the GGWO mission field and people on the homefront held back thousands of dollars A MONTH from generous donators unknown to them. So here they are thinking that they are getting no support from homebase while his father, the Pastor of this fledgeling church had to work numerous jobs just to afford food for his family. I'm talking THOUSANDS of dollars people!!! When they returned home after years of going without and giving without end, they were asked by the numerous donators if they ever received the funds. They were DUMBFOUNDED. All of that work when the Pastor could have been able to lead the church full time instead of just when he wasn't working. What I really want to know is where did ALL THAT MONEY GO!!!!!?????
This account is pure fact and feel free to repeat it if needed for examples of GGWO's deceit.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Somebody please say "I told you so."

[Anonymous (209.23.222.165)]

If you had told my husband's family to beware of these things 25 years ago that rude comment might have some weight, but I highly doubt you were around then so I suggest you save comments like that one for someone who needs it.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"You talkin' to me?" I was there in 1972--how long ago was that?

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Anon 63: ~D~ is not Dan Lewis, I know that for sure. And the person it is, is one of the most loving people I have know at GG. I don't think that the comment was meant in a mean way.
I can asssure you that this person is a wonderful person.
Maybe we just all say things out of defense sometimes. These are hard times for the people involved in GG. No matter what we think, this is a devestating time for that part of the body.
In Gods Everlasting Love

[Anonymous (63.27.70.136)]

Dear Izzie,

I am glad your experience with ~D~ has been one of love...however, what they wrote was VERY unkind and VERY insensitive to 207 and others who have been hurt by this organization's mismanagement!

63

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Dear 63:

Thanks for your kind words. I don't know what to think anymore. I am tired. This whole thing is so sad. All of it. I just want the body to heal and be safe. Every day brings another bad thing
that was part of this organization and it just stinks (sorry) It really does.
I am reminded of a chorus in a song by Martina McBride kind of appropriate for this I guess (just the chorus not the whole song)

Let Freedom Ring
Let The White Dove Sing
Let the whole world know that today
is the day of reckoning
Let the weak be strong
Let the right be wrong
Roll the stone away
Let the guilty pay
IT'S INDEPENDANCE DAY

In Christ's Love

[Anonymous (209.23.222.165)]

Yeah JF,
I'm talking to you. All apologies to ya- old geezer.

[Anonymous (24.91.61.194)]

What I wrote was unkind and insensitive?!
Why are you allowed to slander and speak whatever
you want and people believe everything that you people say
but when we speak of things we know first hand, we get attacked?
You can't win.
You all should be ashamed but you are not.

This is my last post on Factnet. Nor will I continue
to read anything more. Let there be a little blood in the water and
watch the sharks gather...no thank you.
~D~

[Anonymous (63.27.8.193)]

~D~ Too bad you see this as a win or loose situation. Actually, it's a forum to express our grievances with GGWO. If you were looking for a pleasant little tea party you came to the wrong place. Why not try Graceway for edited and softened information. You're probably right, it's best that you're signing off!

BYE...

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

What's up with you ~D~ Don't be whimp!

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY

[Anonymous (63.27.71.162)]

When Pastor Dan Cergioni bungy jumped off a bridge in Africa for the cover of one of "Pastor's" booklets, he yelled all the way down, "Pastor Scibelliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii"

Evidently, Scibelli said he didn't care if P. Cergioni died or not and that he was tempting God with this...nice guy huh? NOT!

Wondering if Cergioni had a crush on him? After all he followed him around Africa and bragged at a rap once that he had slept together with Scibelli, their heads sharing the same pillow! ICKY!

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

where's the link to these "love letters"

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous (212.38.225.16)]

Some of the churches have very talented people but their webpages are really poor. Why?
Are they planning to get out from the gg?

What about the rumors that were here in
June about France?

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/ is poor indeed!

[Anonymous (63.27.3.79)]

Hello There.
My name is Rita and I am twenty-five years old. I love to write poetry, draw, and write in my blog. I am a student at Maryland Bible College and Seminary, where I am getting to know God while I prepare to be an overseas missionary. I'm having the time of my life.

Current Mood: Can't find the right word
Subject: Missionary Newsletter
Time: 11:15 am

I just found this on our church website and it touched me so much that I wanted to share it with anyone who has a heart for the lost. This is a newsletter from Pastor Matti, who is a Finnish missionary to Central Asia. It's so encouraging to see men and women follow the call of God, and how richly God is blessing the work in Mongolia and Western China!

( Missions )

Current Mood: goofy
Subject: Ode to a Citrus Fruit
Time: 12:05 pm


I'm eating a tangerine. Juicy goodness in a little orange ball. Heehee. I think I shall write a poem about my tangerine. Ahem.

::clears throat::

O tangerine,
that once was green,
and hung upon a tree
I thank the Lord
I can afford
a tangerine for me.

O fruit so sweet
compact, complete
ingeniously made
with sticky hands
my voice commands
a citrus serenade.

O brightly colored
citrus fruit!
your value no one
can dispute
such cunning package
for your flavor
I can't express
the joy I savor
Every segment,
cool and sweet--
O tangerine,
you're good to eat.

And now remains
an orange heap
the skin and seeds
I will not keep
but mem'ry fond
I'll cherish long
by tangerine's
compos'ed song.

the end

[Anonymous (67.100.157.188)]

Why isn't Rita posting anymore? We really miss her portion!

[Nancy (141.157.118.79)]

That is not Rita. She doesn't even know about Factnet. Someone is copying her online journal and posting here. She is a dear girl who loves the Lord.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

most of the over seas money comes from the smaller branch churches, and then...i don't want to say MUST BE, (but always seems that way), give money to stevens personally as well. stevens comes first then the mission work...so it seems. they like making a big deal with presenting stevens with a check for gracehour when he comes to the local churches.