The Issues Facing GGWO Part II

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

An Open Letter to GGWO Concerning Ongoing Issues:
I have outlined several issues that GGWO needs to address. As some of you are aware, I with other brothers and sisters in Christ inside and outside of GGWO have lovingly offered support to the Baltimore church. I have followed the progression of FACTNET since April of 2004. I am very grieved by the situation. I do not agree and distance myself from any who would tear down our brothers and sisters in Christ. I have always been a friend and will continue to be a friend of GGWO. I deeply value what I learned while in the ministry. I thank God for the passion for souls, a love for Scripture and appreciation of the body of Christ that I was taught. Again, I attempted to look at it from the outside as an objective observer not a Proverbs 6:16-19 whiner. I have nothing to lose or gain, my intent is for you to see the problem from an objective and outside viewpoint. I will pray and hope that this will be worked out before there is serious damage done. I am deliberately brief, and probably not always right. But, I hope this helps.

Issues that need to be addressed: (As seen from the outside)
1. Senior Pastor
A. Sr. Pastor’s long term health problems and the results
Suggestion: I think for pastor’s own health and the long term health of the church he should resign.

B. Sr. Pastor’s tenure and ability to continue to lead without continual damage control.
Suggestion: If resignation is not an option then I think a definite exit strategy and plan should evolve. I would come up with a limited preaching schedule and Grace Hour schedule. He should be removed from the day to day operations of the church. He has good and bad days. It is an enviable desire to die with your boots on. But, there came a time in King David’s life that the men didn’t let him go out to war anymore. You need to do the same for pastor. Preserve and protect his legacy and life work. My memories are so fond of him; this breaks my heart to see this happening.

C. Senior Pastor’s recent careless remarks from the pulpit,” 5 men died” and the “go to hell if you don’t like it!”
Suggestion: If pastor is to preach, the three most senior elders should visit with him @ 30 minutes before service and determine if he is in a state where he can preach. If not, for everyone’s benefit another pastor should preach. Pastor, for his own protection should have to submit to this. Come up with a series of questions, etc. to determine his mental state. Every man who sits on the podium should have a sermon ready to go.

2. Elders’ Decisions
A. The lack of any public apology for any wrongs or failures or sins.
Suggestion: You need to answer the question ‘why’?

B. The silence of the Leadership and failure to address these issues.
Suggestion: Begin to dialogue through every available means. Be available and humble and transparent. On radio, church meetings, raps, etc…

C. The Elders refusal to correct Senior Pastor in love or bring before church.
Suggestion: If you love him you will do what is right. Think of Nathan. He did what was right.

D. The gross mishandling of the Paul and Mrs. Lang affair
Suggestion: If you have not read the Al Lang report it should be mandatory reading. This will give insight into the obvious outrage. It should be read in front of all the elders by Paul. Then, you should all fall on your knees and beg God for mercy and forgiveness. A statement should be read publicly rebuking and apologizing for pastor (without destroying him) and the elder council for the shameful handling of this whole sordid ordeal. A policy in writing should be established for any staff pastor caught in adultery.

E. The lack of disciplining and rebuking Paul
Suggestion: I know there is a legal agreement here. However, Paul needs to be disciplined. He acted like a spoiled little child who could hide behind his daddy and get away with conduct unbecoming a pastor. I think he should be rebuked before the church and on Grace Hour. I can’t believe that he was able to continue in the office, the Relationship Class, the Grace Hour and be a conference speaker. How you handled it was not right. I know grace and mercy, and I know that grace teaches me to deny ungodliness, not excuse it. Why not make this situation right? I wonder if other pastors facing temptation will fall because nothing happened to Paul.

F. Pastor Paul’s new church plant and the appearance of favoritism.
Suggestion: Call another man to the Senior Pastor position. Let Paul go up as the Associate for two years and then let the elders decide if he is ready for this task. Home life, etc. is all in order. This is a GGWO plant, so you are the mother church.

3. Doctrinal Issues
A. Pastoral authority and accountability, i.e. the doctrine needs revisiting.
Suggestion: I know what I am about to say is not politically correct. I know there is wiggle room in church government models. I would call several conservative seminaries, invite their best instructors in the area of church government and polity to come and teach all the staff pastors, the historical orthodox position of leadership and accountability. I would tape the sessions and make it mandatory for every branch pastor and part of the College and Seminary core class curriculum.

B. The process of marking and avoiding.
Suggestion: When do I mark and avoid? A text without a context is a pretext. Write a policy for this practice. Not everyone who disagrees is an enemy or an apostate.

C. The Geographical will of God that causes the appearance of men and women choosing the ministry over their family and ongoing divorce issues Suggestion: This needs to be carefully scrutinized.

D. The Conspiracy Doctrine.
Suggestion: Not everyone who disagrees or leaves the church is a conspirator. Drop this emphasis.

4. Policies that Cause Concerns
A. Claims of abuse of children and the allegation that background checks are not being followed up. Suggestion: If there are known child abusers working they need to be fired. No pedophile should have a second chance; they should be brought to justice and executed on CNN. Regarding background checks, produce the records that show otherwise or admit to poor handling and take corrective measures. If this was a practice I would fire the person responsible, all the way up the food chain. “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”

B. Lack of complete openness in financial issues (apart from we balance our checkbook…where does it go? Suggestion: have a monthly spreadsheet that is available to all that accounts by budget category for each area, e.g. staff salaries, medical, missions, facilities, etc…

C. Membership requirements: The bylaws of the church indicate that the only effectual members of the church are the elders and possibly the trustees and collectively they do not want help, then your church has spoken. I respect your polity but see it as very unhealthy and impractical. Ironic how we were taught body life, but the corporate expression of membership in the Baltimore church is only the elders. Every church needs leaders. Every church needs leaders to be accountable. I am praying for GGWO and my family members who attend there. They are not members, just attendees even though one is an ordained pastor. What a system! I remember what my mom taught me as a child, “Here is the church, here is the steeple, open up the doors and see all the people.” In GGWO it is “Here is the church, here is the steeple, open up the doors and see all elders.”
Suggestion: Define membership in the corporation as born again and baptism by immersion. Have an annual church meeting to cast vision, present the budget and question and answer time. Vision and direction is cast by the leadership and owned by the membership, etc.

D. Untrained pastors counseling in house instead of referring outside of the church.
Suggestion: Write a policy for the church that limits counseling and refers to several good Christian counselors in the area.

5. The current climate of the church
A. Over emphasis on congregational praise for the Sr. Pastor
Suggestion: I am glad the church loves their pastor. Every church should. Just tone it down a little.

B. The discouragement for congregants to read and discern and have Q& A forums to address issues Suggestion: Change this. Let God’s people read and discern with the same Holy Spirit that you have. Answer the questions and gently correct the wrong conclusions without vilifying and demonizing those who are not in agreement.

C. The difference between disagreeing and being negative.
Suggestion: I think we should seek understanding before being understood. This is a sore spot with many people who have left.

D. The exit of Pastor Lutz and other leaders and long term members of the church
Suggestion: If he is reconcilable than his concerns should be addressed. I would visit him and find out why he left and how you could bring him back and make him and elder. You need his voice. MBCS sure could use him. I would visit all the members who left and see if reconciliation is a possibility.

6. Other long term nagging Issues
A. The Grace Hour Format and callers gushing, etc…
Suggestion: Go back to what made this program great. Put other pastors on with pastor apart from his sons. You have some very gifted men.

B. The court trial from Lenox and undue influence.
Suggestion: If it is legally possible without damage of lawsuits, etc., admit and apologize that the church should not have taken the 5 million without husband’s consent. Good initiative but poor judgment.

C. Jack Leonard’s and others allegations of adultery in Lenox from a conversation with one of the Steven’s sons and pastor’s pressure from the trial resulting in his perjury.
Suggestion: What can I say, call Jack and seek clarification? This is on FACTNET, if true then the son who had this conversation will remember, unless Jack is a flat out liar, which does not make sense. Chase this to the ground. I am not saying this happened I am saying that it is out there as an allegation.

My analysis:
1. On the surface it appears that conflict has been ongoing because the leadership has refused/ignored or failed to address or answer these issues in a public setting.

2. Below the surface I believe these issues are the result of a flawed church government system that has given all the authority to the Sr. Pastor (whether formal or informal) without enough accountability to the church. Simply put, what I mean is, “Well he is the leader, ok.” This system has both dramatically helped and hurt the church. It helps because it is easier to get things done. When pastor is on his game, a worldwide influence is the result. When pastor is not on his game, it hurts because it is easier to have poor decisions and apparent abuses. Absolute power absolutely corrupts.

3. Therefore, I would change the system without changing the vision or the niche of the church. This will be pastor’s greatest legacy -a great church planting and soul winning vision.

4. If I were a member or branch ministry pastor I would be making some noise towards home base. How much do you think they will tolerate? Or, will people just move on?
I would advise the following steps to move forward until the return of our LORD:

1. However the elders determine to address the issues, I would have Pastor Robinson read a written statement with P. Schaller and P. Shibelli and P. Lutz (if you can reconcile with him)on stage standing next to him before the church. This statement should deal with every issue open and honestly. Make it available to the church, Grace Hour, FACTNET, Baltimore Sun, etc. Then, I would have Pastor Stevens bless it with a prayer. I think this would begin the process of healing. I base this upon my best understanding of Matthew 5:21-26. The Bible says if our brother has something against us (FACTNET posts), we are to reconcile quickly; it is about relationships in the body of Christ.

2. I think it is time for the elders to accept the inevitable. For the good of pastor and the church I would insist on some much needed changes. You need to protect him, the church and the long range health of the pastor and the 30,000 members.

3. Call an Acts 15 Jerusalem Council (Call it the Council of Baltimore) and allow every branch ministry senior pastor to participate with an equal voice. Determine an agenda to discuss the issues facing GGWO. For example, authority of a pastor vs. believer priest, double honor balanced with a servant/leader model, disciplining a pastor, how to handle criticisms vs. slander and hearsay, just to name a few. Appoint an outside conservative Christian pastor to moderate over the meeting.
A. Set aside a time for complaints. Invite, those who have a grievance to come. Listen politely and determine a course of action. Seek understanding before being understood. Both sides are so polarized. Where is the attitude of redemption and forgiveness?
B. Record everything and make it available to the membership. Produce a written statement and make it available to all via internet, Grace Hour, publications, etc.

4. Never stop winning souls!!!

5. As a friend of GGWO I offer my prayers and support as you face the future and determine God’s will for your local/worldwide ministry.

For Him,
Dave Drago
Sr. Pastor, First Baptist Church of Herculaneum-Pevely, MO. office: 636-479-9961

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

The indoctrination techniques employed by every incarnation of Carl's organization, and the particular insidious doctrine of pastoral authority are so ingrained in the very undergirding that nothing can be done for it. It is an incurable cancer. From the person in the pew to the chief elder the mutated doctrine has become an embedded fixture and cannot be erased. Even people who have come out of this organization still struggle with the lies that became our internalized truth.

They employed mind control techiniques upon the congregation (see "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Stev Hassan) and bypassed the critical thinking apparatus of the students at the college and the parishioner alike. Because of this, the only remedies available to erradicate this cancer are these:

1.Complete removal of Carl Stevens as pastor

2, Complete removal of all elders

3.Complete removal of all branch pastors

4.Exit counseling made available for each and every congregant and student

5.Assistance provided for each student to be placed in a REAL bible college

6.Assistance provided for each congregant to find a healthy Christian church in his or her area.

7."GGWO" disbanded entirely.

This is the only way to stop the false doctrines from continuing. One must destroy the nest to rid the house of roaches.

Harsh? Yes. Necessary? To my mind, yes. It is the underlying pillars of false doctrines, pastoral authority being cheif but not the only false doctrine, that have caused the organization to become dangerous...it is rotting from the inside, and cannot be saved. The other proper doctrines they have preached over the dacades also have been tainted by the misuse of power and false doctrine...abuses spiritual, sexual, financial, doctrinal and pastoral.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/3447.html?1096235076

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Dear Anon 151:

That briefs well on paper. But, how would you implement these proposed solutions? You do not offer one viable solution. I suppose you will just waltz in there and shut the place down? Your solution sounds like totalitarianism. Are you proposing that an agency should exist to regulate freedom of religion? I thought freedom of religion was a sacred and guaranteed trust in our free country. I would not want to be a willing party to disbanding a group of believers who have some problems that need to be corrected. I find your solutions very chilling. However, if we had an organization like the Taliban your ideas might just work.

Let’s review the proposals shall we? Let’s try to even use our imagination a little!!

1. Complete removal of Carl Stevens as pastor
How? You do not offer a how. Who would do this?

2. Complete removal of all elders
Again, how? And, who would do this?

3. Complete removal of all branch pastors
Again, how? Who will do this? This is chilling. And, why? What is their complicity? They are local independent churches with their own polity.

4. Exit counseling made available for each and every congregant and student
Again, how? What if people do not want this help? Will you violate their rights of free choice? This is very chilling. This sounds like reverse mind control. Do you want them forcibly detained and deprogrammed against their will? Maybe Rick Ross the self appointed cult watcher that has zero credibility is your man for the job.

5. Assistance provided for each student to be placed in a REAL bible college
Again, how? What if they like their school and don’t want to transfer? I see this as extremely chilling.

6. Assistance provided for each congregant to find a healthy Christian church in his or her area.
What defines a healthy church? Who will facilitate this process? What if they want to keep their doors open? Then what?

7."GGWO" disbanded entirely.
How would you do this? I have and idea. You could call the FBI in and burn it to the ground like they did in Waco. I remember watching that one on the news. When I saw the M-1 Abrams tanks outside their compound it was very chilling. It was like watching the former Soviet Union destroy and dismantle anyone or any organization that was viewed as a danger. Do you realize our government burned to death men, women and children because of their strange religious practices? What was their crime? Was it that they had guns? The right to bear arms is a second amendment right. Yes, there were allegations of child abuse. But, I think the abuse the children suffered being burnt alive by our government agents was sickening. The governments cure was worse than the disease.

Conclusion:
I think your proposals are naïve at best. I think at worst, you could be unwittingly acting as a sheep in wolf’s clothing. And, I purposely worded it that way. You actually could be duped and deceived by liberal organizations that want to destroy our freedom of religion. Your proposals if implemented will devour and destroy. Your solution is totalitarian. Your cure is worse than the disease. You speak of freedom of the mind, but it is in accord only with your way of thinking. Buyer beware these proposals rob you of your ability to think and choose on your own.
For Him,
Dave

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Dave you are becoming quite overwrought. My goodness you sound like Carl did this morning.

Of course these remedies I reposted would need to be carried out by a neutral third party. Just as in the case of Jum Bakker, someone needs to take this place apart and start all over again with new cast members.

You did not witness this morning's debacle at GGWO. It was more obvious than ever tha the threads keeping this place going are teneble at best.

I say your proposals are as naive as any I have seen. They cannot be achieved any more than you say mine can. But in any case something will be done eventually. God will choose the manner, and it will come with the eventual death of the regime through the death of Carl Stevens, unfortunately.

He is too unstable, demented, selfish and out of control to do the right thing. He commanded his flock NOT to leave and join Paul's church intimating that Paul is out of the "geographical will" of God. Guy Duff removed (by coersion one is told) from his position, because he has been seen at Paul's church.

Dave. You must understand that something will explode in time. You cannot influence these corrupt people no matter how biblical your approach, for they play by other rules.

Neither will my "plan", though it is no plan, work, because of the ingrained indoctrination of those in charge there, and the reluctance of anyone to do anything overt...well, except Carl.

I am ashamed of the people I know that are in any form of leadership there. Including, maybe especially your friend Scott. Scott is not capable of being much more than a yes man to a tyrant he admires. No one can truly respect these phoney men of God, so to speak, anymore. Especially after what happened this morning. The look on the faces of the congregation was death, the place seemed beset with hollowness of The Spirit and rife with insanity. Rather demonic like the day he called Dan Baker a "vomitus jerk" FROM THE PULPIT...because Dan had the audacity to pray for Calr's dementia.

Removing Carl is the key that will make the rest of the place fall, for no one has the charisma needed to hold it together. Carl's obvious dementia makes him a danger to himself physically and to his flock spiritually. And Paul, being the only person to try to buck the system and get his father the help he so obviously needs, is booted out, and ostrasized.

Carl needs to go. How? preferably by proper means and by Godly men. If not, he will die and then the rest will happen. It is inevitable.

You can try to be the knight in shining armor come to save the day, it really doesn't matter. You aren't the first nor will you be the last if this charade continues. In any case, calm down and relax. Things will work out one way or another.

You are as bull headed and naive as most who still claim friendship with this place. I am saddened that more people do not care more for the confused souls that witness these embarassing things and are wondering what to do now.

You have offered to help them. Great pastor Dave ready to rescue Carl's dying congregation. Before you can do that Pastor, you must open your eyes a little more and see the damage really being done rather than waste your holier than thou self righteousness calling people like me names.

Open them, Dave. See what is really happening here. Hear the sobbing? Can you see the confusion? Can you mend hearts broken by years of lies and false doctrine? No. You can't. Your pastor's heart needs to really see what in truth is happening to these people. Most of the deeply hurt will not confide in you as long as you still claim riendship with GGWO. There is a serious trust issue here, one that is real, heartwrenching and driving many into confused seclusion.

You boldly proclaim I am naive and tyrannical because I think this farce called GGWO needs to stop and start from scratch...people need exit counseling, elders need to be gone, Carl needs to be gone, the schools teach lies, and need to stop...the diplomas aren't worth anything anyway. You cannot allow these good people to be continually lied to for decade after decade and expect them to be well grounded, they are not. The system they have given themselves to is corrupt from it's core. It has been since the beginning when Carl slept around and left Jim Faucette in the car while he was an adulterer with a member of his church...we're talking Wiscasset, Dave. This corruption is not new.

If I peel back one layer of an onion and the inside is completeltly rotten, I throw the whole thing out and look for a new one. Saving it isn't possible.

Some things are beyond saving Dave, and if I wasn't convinced before this morning, I certainly am now. And others are as well. It has been quoted by those that know, that over 600 people have left. Thank God...at least they can get on the road to recovery and find healthy places to worship.

Believe as you will Dave. It is useless to discuss anyhting with you now. There was a time perhaps when you might not have been so blind in this. I am sorry you have lost that compassion and honesty you showed us earlier.

How I wish you could have seen the service. It was chilling to say the very least. It has frightened so many...I pray to God they get out now. You would have seen why many of us know it truly is a cult.

The baby in the bathwater is dead, Dave. It needs to be removed with the disgusting slimey water. Have fun blasting me, Dave. It doesn't hurt me and makes you look self righteous, something I had once thought you incapable of.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

BTW, Dave...it is Carl who is robbing the people of their freedom, using manipulations, lies, fasle doctrines and insinuations, bypassing their critical thinking abilities. I am praying they get free of this so they can be re-taught how to make their own choices. I'd rather see them in good fundamentalist churches...and I am not a fundamentalist. But at least in a true church they can be encouraged to not only have faith, but to also use the intelligence that God gave them to reasonm, to think, to choiose without it being tamopered with.

THAT is freedom of religion. THAT is what I am a staunch proponent of. If the people choose to remain fundamnetalists it does not matter if I approve, or if anyone disapproves or approves...it is that they themselves CHOOSE without any undue influence or corrupt manipulations. Carl and his cronies have used both for decades.

I believe with my whole heart that every single human being on this earth has the right to choose the church they want, but no one has a right to use mind control techniques upon people to get them to join or to stay. That isn't freedom.

[.RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Dave

There is somthing else I would like to say to you. There was a day, years ago now, that i would have agreed with your remedy. In fact my thoughts on the subject varied very little from your list.

Then my friends who still were faithful to GG began telling me more and more of the lies being told, the cover-up, the abuses. I learned much of the the dark underbelly of the beast than I had already known or surmised. I didn't realize it at the time but the rift between my friends who took all these atrocities (my word, not theirs) in stride and I was widening year after year. it got to the drastic point last summer when they were here, that I could no longer tolerate their continuous accetance of these terrible thing. I had to break contact with thm, for I just couldn't handle it anymore.

I think I cried for a month. I loved my friend and her kids and stilo miss them very very much. I worry for them...but the degree to which theu had changed and allowed this place to harm their lkids...I just couldn't take it.

Then when I finally read the Alan Long story it was too much. It made me cringe. it was then I knew that nothing could save this place or the people unless it just no longer existed. Did this make me happy? No.

Some of my fondest memories are of the first years i spent in lenox before everything began to change. I made many wonderful friends, I enjoyed the studies etc. But it is no longer the same.And I am not convinced, especially after this morning, that anything can or should save it.

Do not for a moment imagine that I hate these people. I just hate who they have become and how they hurt the flock without conscience.

It isn't easy to feel this way and contrary to the negative portrait painted of me here, i do not relish the demise I pray for. it is a sad sad thing that men like this are so determined to hurt people for the sake of their own illegitimate power, but that is what they do, who they are and who they want to be.

I did used to believe like you, Dave. But then I opened my eyes and saw it all from the other side, where the dirt smells of tears. And kids cry themselves to sleep, women give themselves to a pastor because he is one, where men are used and tossed aside if they aren't "yes" men...etc.

Men without conscience are dangerous. I want it to stop. It cannot be fixed except you tear it down and replace the foundations before you rebuild.

I used to believe, Dave, but now I see more and know better. I hope you will see that I am as sincere as you are, and just as grieved.

If not, continue to call me names if it pleases you. But it makes you look just like them.

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

Roberta,
I am so relaxed. My life is full. God is on the throne, my wife and kids love me, I have friends who accept me and I love serving my congregation. I am at peace.
1. What I am saying is that you have to accept the fact that many do not want to leave. Whether you accept it or not they will not trust any efforts you make to help. Why? They have serious trust issues with anyone who calls their church a cult. My pastor's heart sees that. I am reaching out in love. No agenda. Those who seek my help I offer it, whether they stay or go. I can't tell them what to do. Neither can you.

2. Again, whether I ask you to cite your expert testimonials on the church being a cult or I dissect your proposals as unfeasible, unsuitable and unacceptable your knee jerk reaction is tiresome yet predictable.

3. This website is not about you and your self image issues. This website is about FACTS surrounding GGWO. You insistently personalize anyone who disagrees with you as attacking you and persecuting you. You do not like being denied or contradicted. You seem to have a persecution complex. This is very unhealthy behavior. "Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution...The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted."
Please get help from a certified christian counselor to work through these issues.

4. You need to review the advice that Hassan gives: "Being in control of your own mind includes: being in touch with your feelings; having the ability to question and think analytically; the freedom to act independently as well as the ability to look at issues from multiple perspectives."
I have looked at this issue from all sides and I am still researching and investigating. I was trained and paid by our government to analyze information and offer solutions as an Army Intellingence Officer. I have analyzed your solutions and found them to be impractical. It is not personal, it is analytical.

5. Your analysis of nothing changing until Pastor Stevens dies is a real possibility. I commend you here. But, there will be many still left. Perhaps, a second tier leader will emerge and begin to make changes. Don't you wonder what the bottom line is? I have and am addressing these leaders not to be "Great pastor Dave ready to rescue Carl's dying congregation", as you claim but to empower and encourage them to change. Here, your analysis is slip-shod and illogical. All I have done is offered friendship and confronted them in love to change.

6. I am who I am by the grace of God. My compassion for those in and out is obvious to all who read. I did not attack you, I challenged your analysis. You confuse that with attack. I have dedicated much time, thought and prayer to this situation. PERIOD. You are the one with trust issues. I am not trying to help you. I am not that naive.

7. I do not judge your motives I discern your words. Your journey is your journey. your exit is your exit. Your hurts are your hurts. I do not diminish them in anyway whatsoever.

8. For all my faults and warts I am not a 'yes' man. Does this bother you that I do not say 'yes' to you? (Rhetorical)

respectfully,
Dave

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

You have misread me at every turn. I have been advocating for years, 15 years in fact that people need to leave. Many people do not want to, that is true...but many also do not want to leave a sinking ship when they cannot see it sinking. Ihave tried to show them that itis sinking more and more every day. This has never been about me, and your continued attempts to twist this point is amusing and a deflecting tactic. It isn't about either of us. I don't care who agrees or disagrees in these ****ing contests between people who speak here. The issue is so much more important than that.

You have no reason to haggle, yet you do. I knew you would play the game you did play about "experts", Dave. You are predictable just as GGWO always has been when they wish to discredit information.

GGWO fits all the crriteria for cults written and found in textbooks today. Bad church, cult...whatever...you spend so much time trying to discredit others that people may be lost in the fray.

To those who will leave because it is a bad church, fine...to those who need to hear it follows the cult criteria, great...just get them out of the burning bulding before they are consumed by it.

A child may choose a pretty snake for a pet, and want it very much, but a good parent sees the inherent dangers the child does not, and the child and snake are seperated. GGWO is dangerous, especially now with the volitile eruptions happening so frequently.

You can accuse me all you like. It means nothing. I don't care if you believe me or not. I never have. I knew you wouldn't because you are still connected to GGWO. If all you plan yo do is spend time discrediting me and all who speak out and want to get people out, be my guest. I honestly have more important things on my mind.

I still have loved ones there and I am worried sick about them. They are full of dangerous lies and need to be brought out before it all hits the fan.

If you honestly think that people should be taught false doctrine, lied to, lied about and led by a corrupt group of men and an untaught self proclaimed pastor suffering form dementia, you go ahead and save the place. I still say the place is too far gone for your magical thinking remedy, Dave, but go on...fix it. I challenge you....get it done. You have been talking on and on about it. Show me results. Or are you still waiting for an answwer from your corrupt elder friends?

By the way, Dave just to satisfy your curiosity, the experts I contacted years ago were leaders in the field and are dead. I still won't tell you who they are, especially after watching you do your Carl Stevens act and put down others in the field with such sarcastic pleasure.

Frankly I thought you were one of the few that would refrain from doing the sarcastic know it all routine using your new status as pastor to carry it off.

By the way...when you spoke to the Missouri papers earlier in the year why is it you never mentioned ever being a student at GGWO? I thought you considered it a viable college, yet you didn't mention it. Oh well. I never would have mentioned it either, actually.

The people who want to stay are not thinking, Dave. They have been taught to follow Carl. I know this means your family, but how they could witness the demented Carl at the pulpit this morning and still be loyal is just nuts. And they need to be told the truth and exit asap.

You do not agree, and you have your reasons. I am baffled by them but nevertheless, you have a plan. I challenge you then to make it work. It is the same plan others have tried and failed, but i wish you luck. I have no faith in it personally, but would love to be proved wrong. You'll forgive me if I don't wait around for it to happen. I need to get some people out, help those that come to me with questions and help the wounded who on their own now realize it is more than simply a bad church.

You do your thing and I'll do mine. Is your need to be right greater than their need? Then get moving, put your plan in action, give daily updates...go to Baltimore and see for yourself what is happening.

I challenge to prove your plan is God's Will. Not with more rhetoric and ****ing contests. The time has come to help activly...now...before Carl utters more pastor like/cult leader like commands from the pulpit like he did today, or stands in front of his dwindling congregation and sneers calling men who serve him vomitus jerks.

Be careful...if he discovers what you are doing, you'll be next. And he'll hurt your family still there too. They'll be marked and shunned.

It's a sick place that is getting worse. There's little time to lose Dave. You don't like me, fine. You don't like what I tink, fine, then get busy and put your plan in action. Or have you already...ahhh....perhaps that is true. They will stall you and call you out if you're not careful.

Please do be careful. These guys are not playing with a full deck some of them and that makes for a dangerous situation. You have more to lose than I do.

I am not kidding...be wary. And I do wish you luck. You'll need it.

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

1. In my ongoing research I recommend The New England Institute of Religious Research as a good site to offer very helpful information for those who are seeking to learn more about cults or aberrational Christian groups. Their website is http://neirr.org/definitions.htm
I highly recommend this organization for anyone in or outside GGWO to receive counseling and insight into GGWO.

2. What is their purpose?
The New England Institute of Religious Research was founded in 1991 as a mission outreach to provide churches, secular organizations and concerned individuals with up-to-date research on cultic structures. The Institute also provides training for people who work with those caught up by such destructive groups. We personally meet with the members of various groups to discuss Behavioral/Biblical/Theological issues with them. Another important dimension of Institute ministry is to provide an emotionally and spiritually healing environment for ex-members. We offer information, resources, support groups and counseling to those who have a loved one involved in any type of spiritually abusive group.
Current Projects
The NEIRR is regularly called upon by family members of those ensnared in dangerous groups. The Institute provides information, and where possible, will intervene to help bring freedom to the individual in the group. In the most extreme cases (i.e., communal groups), an individual will desire to leave, but be prohibited by the fact that abandoning the ideology of the group will mean not only losing their friends, but their home and job as well. For this reason, NEIRR began the task of creating a "safe house" as a temporary shelter in such situations. In 1999, the Institute purchased a former nursing home situated on 2 1/2 acres off a quiet country road overlooking acres of rolling farm land, and the project, now called Meadow Haven, began to become a reality. NEIRR purchased Meadow Haven "as is." Since it had been vacant for three years, major renovations needed to be made before anyone would be able to live there. Therefore, we are in great need of financial partners as well as fellow laborers. Please contact us if you would like to be part of this ground breaking work. There are many ways to be involved.

3. Who is on their staff?
The staff currently consists of four full-time members holding advanced degrees in their field. Rev. Robert T. Pardon, (M.Div., Th.M.) is the Executive Director, a position that he has held since its inception in 1991. Rev. Pardon is recognized as an expert in the United States on a number of religious groups, including various communa groups, and the B'ahai faith. He has been a frequent speaker at various conferences across the country. Judith K. (Barba) Pardon (B.A., M.Ed) came on full-time staff with the Institute in 1992 and serves as the Associate Director. Mrs. Pardon is recognized as an effective and compassionate exit counselor, and is likewise well known for her thorough knowledge of aberrant religious groups.
David and Ellen Ronka recently joined the Institute staff serving as resident advisors for the Meadow Haven project.
Standing with the staff are scores of individuals across the country who participate in this ministry by their prayers, financial support, and research. NEIRR is deeply grateful to all those who have helped this ministry as it helps those trapped in cults and aberrant religious groups.
Board of Advisers
LOCAL
Rev. Steve Macchia (Director) E.A.N.E. Burlington, MA
Rev. Jim Eubanks (Pastor) Brookville Baptist Church, Holbrook, MA
Peter Marinelli (Lawyer) Cambridge, MA
Rev. Eric Sweitzer (Director) Charis Counseling Center, Middleboro, MA

NATIONAL
Dr. Norman Geisler (Dean) Southern Evangelical Seminary, Charlotte, NC
Dr. Daniel Trathen (Therapist) Denver, CO
Dr. J. Bjornstadt (Professor) Cedarville College, Cedarville, OH
Craig Branch (Director) Apologetic Resource Center, Birmingham, AL

4. How do they pay their bills?
NEIRR is a non-profit, tax-exempt, 501(c)(3) entity. We are not underwritten by any particular church or denomination, and exist by the free-will offerings of those who feel called to support this ministry.

5. Comments from The Religious Community
"...there are hundreds of ways the Institute helps people, including crisis intervention for those caught in cults, and counseling for those who have loved ones trapped in some aberrant religious group. Their ministry is cutting edge, something that we may all need to call on someday..." Rev. Ron Tovmassian, Pastor, Armenian Memorial
"Thank you for coming and conducting your seminar at Church in the Pines. Both our Church and Zion Congregational very much appreciated your ministry here. Many people left with new insights into various groups touched upon." Rev. Joel Knudsen, Pastor, Church in the Pines
"...(the New England Institute of Religious Research) is serving as an outstanding resource for our six state area. Many of our New England churches are not prepared to deal with the present cult explosion." Rev. Jim Eubanks, Brookville Baptist Church

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

1. What is in a label? http://neirr.org/definitions.htm. How important is this issue with the experts?
2. This is a good read. Perhaps we should not use the word cult or abusive church but use the phrase “ABERRATIONAL CHRISTIAN GROUP.” I think this best defines GGWO. Read and decide for yourselves.
3. ABERRATIONAL CHRISTIAN GROUPS
Christian truth is like a plateau, there is much room for movement. Institutionalized Heresies are groups that have "fallen off" one end of the plateau. Aberrational Christian groups are on top of the plateau, but living on the fringes. Thus, they embrace the basics of Orthodox theology. However, whereas Institutionalized Heresies take that which is a major doctrine and make it minor, Aberrational Christian groups take that which is minor within Christian doctrine and make it major. This may be manifest in a stricter separation from the world, an over emphasis on the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts, the use of only one translation of the Bible (KJV Onlyism), etc.
A recent phenomenon within this category is the growing number of highly destructive, essentially orthodox groups. These groups exercise a high degree of control over their members that subtly shifts their allegiance from Christ to the organization. To disobey the organization is to disobey Christ. To leave the organization is to leave the Kingdom of God. Thought reform, an elevated sense of guilt, the control of information that is critical of the group or its beliefs are common characteristics of many of these organizations. For a more detailed look at what consitutes an aberrational Christian group, please see "Eight Distinctives of an Aberrational Group"
4. CULTS (INSTITUTIONALIZED HERESIES)
We recommend that the term "cult" not be used (except in specific and controlled situations) because today it is usually associated with extremist groups like Jonestown and the Branch Davidians. It is because of this faulty understanding and the weakness of language that groups like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unity School of Christianity, etc. have made themselves acceptable to large segments of the Christian Church. Conversely, it could also be said that the designation "cult" has in the past been saddled on orthodox groups, merely out of ignorance or fear. Thus the term "cult" can be a misleading term. It is our opinion that the term cult is most applicable when a group exhibits destructive sociological behaviors that create extreme psychological damage, physical abuse, or even loss of life.
An Institutionalized Heresy is an organized group of people who have set themselves up in opposition to the historic church by their heretical beliefs. In most instances Institutionalized Heresies contain three elements. One element is always present, the other two may or may not be present, and they usually vary in degree.

A. First Element - Theological Deviation. This is the one characteristic that is always present. All Institutionalized Heresies take major orthodox Christian doctrines (nature of God, person of Christ, why He came, the Trinity, sin, etc.) and make them minor, or deny them althogether. Thus, they undercut the very foundations of historic Christianity.

B. Second Element - Sociological Aspects. Often these groups manifest extreme authoritarian patterns, unusual lifestyle characteristics, forced conformity patterns, subtle mechanisms to create intense loyalty and commitment to the organization or leader, elitism, etc. These groups are usually culture rejecting in their approach.

C. Third Element - Sensationalistic Accounts. These are the journalistic reports in the popular press that focus upon the dramatic
http://neirr.org/definitions.htm

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Are you really reading this stuff for the first time? This is not new. It is called semantics, and it is useful for everyone and anyone who wishes to push their own personal views. You are doing exactly what Carl does. He doesn't want anyone to call it a cult either.

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=84

By the way...how's your plan coming along? How about an update?

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

The checklist:

heretical beliefs

extreme authoritarian patterns
unusual lifestyle characteristics
forced conformity patterns
subtle mechanisms to create intense loyalty and commitment to the organization or leader
elitism
culture rejecting

journalistic reports in the popular press that focus upon the dramatic

Can anyone provide examples of actions meeting these criteria?

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

heretical beliefs ___ How about the doctrine of Pastorial Authority? Delegated Authority? The Bema Seat BS, Geographical will of God, ETC...

extreme authoritarian patterns _____ Don't go to any other church, Don't read certain books, Don't listen to an evil report,..

unusual lifestyle characteristics______No touch love, divine design, controlled environment, as if living in a bubble trusting on other body members.

forced conformity patterns_____short hair for men, Long hair for women, Manditory service attendences, tithing, Dress code


subtle mechanisms to create intense loyalty and commitment to the organization or leader____Double honor, Security guards making people think Carl is/was under a death threat.


elitism_____The Morningstar order, Leader putting down every other speaker, leader and teacher outside of the group, We are not the Laodocian Church, We are more committed, We are the elite.

culture rejecting___Everything in the world is evil. Don't fellowship with the world. Reality is evil.

journalistic reports in the popular press that focus upon the dramatic_____There have been numerous reports and articles listed on factnet and elsewhere to sufficently answer this particular question.

Can anyone provide examples of actions meeting these criteria?_______ These are just a few of the examples that have been reiteratered over and over again.

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Entry: aberration
Function: noun
Definition: difference
Synonyms: abnormality, anomaly, departure, deviation, difference, distortion, divergence, diversion, eccentricity, freak, irregularity, nonconformity, oddity, peculiarity, quirk, straying, wandering

Gee Dave, looks like you've finally hit upon it...not only is GGWO a cult, its an ABERRATIONAL cult.

Syn: Insanity; lunacy; madness; derangement; alienation; mania; dementia; hallucination; illusion; delusion.

Way to go Dave. Who knew, huh?

http://dictionary.reference.com/

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

ok Dave Drago quit beating on RJ. Do you like the other GGWO leaders have a deranged attitude towards women knowing something more than "yes, honey..."

From what I can see, RJ plucked your feathers, Dave, she has brought up some good issues (and some not so good) about things that need to be recognized and taken care of by the current leaders at GGWO.

You, IMO, are stubborn and pig headed!!

I speak for the general public here on factnet. This is the scoop, Dave, in a nutshell. You say you have the solutions to the situation at GGWO? Then like RJ challenged you, get off your backside and come to Baltimore, get with the elders and lets see how far you do get. You have the rhema from God, right??? The ONLY one with the solutions that will "WORK"....and, we all know your buddy, Scott the "yes man"...the people pleaser. Scott. The chamelion. He'll play the game with you right till you get in your car and drive yourself right back home. But you go right ahead and stick up for your best buddy who has been through enough. Enable him to further cover things up.

Make sure you send full reports back like RJ asked. Especially the ones where they make a fool out of you for trying. Don't you get it yet?

THEY DON'T WANT ANYBODY'S HELP. NOT EVEN THEIR OWN BRANCH MINISTRY PASTORS. NOT EVEN GOOD OLD WAYNE HOGARTH.

We think you owe RJ an apology. That was definately an ego argument, you defending yours by stabbing out at her. Just because you wear the title of Pastor doesn't give you the right to beat people with it thinking your knowledge is superior to their vertical with God.

You aren't the solution to the problem. God is the solution.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

To the above post:
You SO have it backwards. RJ is the one who needs to apologize. Dave finally exposed her for the phony she is. And RJ, as always, showed herself for the hateful, immature fool that she is. Dave, thank you, your posts on this are the best!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Dave owes me nothing. He really believes that his well articulated remedy can work. I disagree with him, and have been honest with him as to why I cannot trust the people he is dealing with at GGWO. I have no problem with him personally, although it is worrisome to me that he may be being used. His plan isn't a new one. It has been attempted before. I believe he needs to go to Maryland and give it the face time with the elders it needs, if it has any chance whatsoever of having any effect at all. If he can't because he has a church of his own and is busy I understand that too.

However. I have also explained why I do not reveal information knowingly to people who boldly say thaey are friends of GGWO.

Simply because we disagree makes neither of us immature, fools, hateful or phonies. It simply means we are two believers who disagree. Just because Dave is a pastor makes no difference, nor should it.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

RJ,
You are not immature, hateful and phony because you disagree with Dave--- that is just the way you are period. People disagreeing with you just brings it out. And you don't just disagree---you go for the throat. You say it's not personal, but there are many personal attacks in your posts to him.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Dave,

Respectfully, you have talked the talk, now walk the walk.

I haven't been around this cu, I mean dysfunctional church (I almost used the "c" word!) long enough to know if your plan is going to work or not.

Try it. You are a minister. You know the "deal". Even though I disagree with some of your beliefs, you seem well spoken and even tempered. You have rejected RJ's plan as naive and too authoritarian. I know you don't have to report to anyone on this board, least of all me, but what have you done to put your plan in motion? Are you having any success? And how does your plan differ from plans of years gone by?

I am not so filled with pride that I won't consider someone else's plan might just work. I'm just curious if it is in motion and/or working.

Good luck,

Boss Martian

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 02:50 am
Ok, Anonymous 152.163.101.13:
You are correct I am stubborn. I am also impatient. I am also tenacious. Personally, I would choose bull-headed over pig-headed (if I could choose). I am many other things too. I am sinner saved by grace. You are anonymous.
Respectfully,
Dave

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

Boss,
I appreciate your questions and I will do my best to answer them.

1. What have I done to put the plan in motion?

I have offered some possible solutions to the elders. PERIOD. I have no false delusions here. I never claimed to have the rhema from God.” Or, The ONLY one with the solutions that will "WORK".... I have not painted myself in that light. I am just an average guy who attended there from 1984-1989. I have done the best I could before God to offer the errant church some options. I am extremely busy being a husband, father and pastoring a church. I offered some possible courses of action that I believe will help. I have spoken and emailed two elders and spoke with several branch pastors. It is easy to point out faults. It is tough to point out answers. I am a pragmatic person. I wanted to point out the issues and offer a fresh perspective.

2. Would going there and having face time with the elders help? Is the plan in motion and working? Are you having any success?

Who knows? I have used email and the phone. I do know they have received the document and others that I have sent. I have also recommended a book on Biblical Eldership that enumerates the Servant Leader model. If there is any hope for change it will be through the second tier leadership. I believe the elders have to initiate the reform. I can’t do that any more than I can repent for them. Some call this enabling. I have called them publicly to repentance. That is called rebuking and exhorting with all longsuffering. As I said earlier I am not a patient man. I know this is painful, but God is not on my time table. He is patient.

3. And how does your plan differ from plans of years gone by?

I would recommend you read the CRI report and draw your own comparisons and contrasts.

4. As I think about these issues, and the various opinions about the ability or probability to change (and no one but God knows the answer) I have four thoughts to ponder:

1. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to the LORD. God is not constrained by my impatience for things to change.

2. The Arm of the LORD is not too short to save. He can intervene. We just do not know when or how. So, we offer our thoughts and help to the church.

3. The wheels of God's justice grind slowly, but they do grind. God is and will judge those who abuse the office of elder for their own personal gain.

4. I am praying for GGWO.

For Him,
Dave

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

So, you do not plan to show up in person and do this eye to eye with them?