Spiritual pride

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

I believe that there is a form of pride that I'm going to call spiritual pride, although religious might be a more accurate term for it. This is pride in one's knowledge or doctrinal positions, and can be held by someone who is not personally proud; that is, not proud of their own person or personality or even intellect. And pride in one's own spiritual gifts or held position within the church or organization could be very similar in nature; held without personal pride. In this way, a truly humble person can be proud at the same time. Weird, huh? I don't have verses at hand for this. I just saw it as I was in prayer. Guess that means you can't trust it, huh Jim? Well, there is the thing about knowledge puffing up, come to think of it; but you might want to consider it in terms of systems of knowledge that have been studied and taken on as one's own.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

The Spirit doesn't just illuminate the Word. He illuminates our own observations and experience. It is possible for us to observe things and yet not understand. But the Spirit can illuminate and give us understanding of relationships between events or people or thoughts, even showing us patterns and feeding us understanding based on past observation which we have not formerly held (the understanding) in ourselves. He does this when He chooses to. It is not something we have 'a right' to. It is by grace, and meant for His ends.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Sounds like a repeat of Carl Stevens condemning people who studied the Scriptures. He accused them of "intellectual pride." He did this with a lot of us who eventually challenged his doctrines from the Scriptures themselves rather than just talking about his behavior.

We are told to:

2 Tim. 2:15 (ESV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Not needing to be ashamed means we need to be proficient in our use of the Scriptures. This is oftentimes offensive to some. Ahab was actually quite angry with Elijah, they didn't just have a friendly, loving conversation. And it was the Law that Elijah came to uphold before Ahab, not just some "spiritual ideal."


Your reference to "knowledge puffing up" used quite out of context is a good case in point--people use it as an accusation, many times obliquely, against others who have at least invested some time studying the Bible and attempting to know the God revealed there. Here's the passage in context:

1 Cor. 8:1-9 (ESV)
Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. [2] If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. [3] But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
[4] Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we <U>know</U> that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one." [5] For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— [6] yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
[7] However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. [8] Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. [9] But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

Paul was answering a query from the Corinthian church in the statement. Here is a parallel passage in Romans:

Romans 14:1-13 (ESV)
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. [2] One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. [3] Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. [4] Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
[5] One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. [6] The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. [7] For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. [8] If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
[10] Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; [11] for it is written,
"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God."

[12] So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
[13] Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.


Bob, neither of these passages dissuade us from knowing God through the Scriptures (in fact quite the opposite) nor do they admonish us against the vigorous and oftentimes sharp defense of the faith--I commend you to Paul's own defense against many in his epistles and in Acts. It was not only against Peter that he withstood in debate.

As far as the work of the Spirit, Bob, wouldn't it be better to take His own Word as to what is and is not His ministry? This ministry is defined in Scripture (and nowhere else, by the way)which itself is inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Are we told to hide the word of God in our hearts that we might not sin against Him for no reason at all? Or are we told this because the Word is the inspired work of the Spirit, and He will later use it to convict of sin, judgment and righteousness? There is no famine on this board for "spirituality" in my view, there is one however of hearing the Word of God.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

lets look to the WORD , "God resisteth the proud and gives grace to the humble"
"pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall"

[Dave Carson (65.234.189.253)]

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God.

Eph. 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, which is debauchery, but be filled by the Spirit, 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music in your hearts to the Lord,

II Peter 1:3 I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. 1:4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; 1:6 to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 1:7 to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. 1:8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately.

Scripture doesn't separate the work of the Spirit in our lives from an increasing knowledge of the Word of God, so I don't think we can presume to do any less. Biblical spirituality comes from the Bible. Knowing the Bible alone is not enough (most JWs know the Bible better than the average Baptist), but not knowing the Bible guarantees spiritual waywardness.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

The phrase one hears most about those here who Bob says are guilty of spiritual pride are the words spiritual arrogance.

[Nancy Curra (70.17.195.25)]

I am loving this conversation. Thank you all for sharing. It is so beautiful, I sense the Holy Spirit so strongly in this thread. I walked around for the last 14 years living in this spiritual pride, arrogance, whatever we want to label it thinking I was Spirit filled all the time when in reality I was a knowledge puffs up Christian.

I am so thankful to be freed from this. Through my illness I have had intimate times with God but now it is as if Heaven has opened up, the Word has really come alive and I am finally free.

I still am struggling trusting churches and leaders anywhere. I know God will lead me in the right direction and give me greater discernment concerning this as I look for a new pastor and teachers.

Thank you again for sharing.

[Nic (56.0.103.25)]

Real spiritual pride is thinking you don't need to live by the Word of God, but you can decide for yourself what spirituality is, and how you will approach God and worship Him and hear from Him.
The Word of God makes us live by God's terms, but people who don't like His terms make up their own, and then accuse biblical Christians of being spiritually proud or holier-than-thou.
Living by the Word doesn't make you proud, it humbles you, because it reveals how great God is and how we are nothing without Him.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Jim, This thread was not intended to be levelled against you or anyone else here. In no way am I against studying or memorizing the Word. Those are good things to do, and they help to equip us for life in the Spirit. I don't see living in the Spirit as being opposed to Biblical knowledge. But it remains that someone can be personally humble, but proud about what he knows, even outside the Christian context. Why is it that you don't think the Spirit can show us anything outside of what has actually been written down? When you have a decision to make, do you ALWAYS sit down with the Word to figure out what to do? Doesn't the Spirit direct you in ministry? I just don't get you. I'm sorry. I'm not angry, and I'm not trying to attack you or even your beliefs. And the 'spiritual' pride I'm talking about could be based on a lot less actual information and understanding of the Word than you have. Think about those who think clergy are above and somehow separate from those 'below' them in the system. Is there not perhaps some pride in that? Are not all sinners? All I was really getting at was that it's possible to have pride that is not in one's self, but in position or knowledge one has. What's with having contracts written up so that only lawyers can understand them? If you memorize the Word and study it and ponder it and meditate over it and you pray and seek God and He shows you other things; either based on those scriptures or based on other stuff you know (remember the parables?), is all that extra-Word stuff just vain imaginations?

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Context, context, context:

James 4:4-8 (ESV)
You adulterous people! you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. [5] do you suppose it is to no purpose that <U>the Scripture</U> says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"? [6] But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." [7] <U>Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8] Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded</U>.

And again IN CONTEXT:

1 Peter 5:1-9 (ESV)
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: [2] shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; [3] not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. [4] And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. [5] Likewise, you who are younger, <U>be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another</U>, for "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
[6] Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, [7] casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. [8] Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. [9] <U>Resist him, <FONT COLOR="ff0000">firm in your faith</FONT>, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.</U>

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Doesn't the Word say that the Spirit reveals the deep things of God to us? And leads us into all truth? I don't understand why you think I'm being unBiblical. I'm seeking to lean on the Lord's understanding rather than my own. Jesus said He only spoke what He heard from the Father and only did what the Father showed Him. What's that all about? Do you suppose He was talking about what He saw in the Word, or what He heard personally through the Spirit from the Father? As He is so are we in this world, right? We have within us the very same Spirit Who raised Jesus from the dead.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

I just invited Miles and Trane on board, disc three. Time to loosen up a bit and stop taking ourselves so seriously. I wrote a bit about the song Aqualung this morning. It's on the Rock 'n roll thread. Always liked Ian's way with words. It's interesting that the message of that song carries so much compassion, and yet musically much of it is sung in a sort of angry vein. Something to go back and listen to with that in mind. But right now it's Miles, with Trane about to come out of the wings...there he is, marveloussss!

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Bob, if you don't intend to aim a thread at someone, might it be better to leaves names out of your very first post? Otherwise, it might appear that you are aiming at specific persons.


And what is it beyond the extent of the Spirit inspired Word that you need leading in concerning matters of faith?

Of course I don't go to the Bible to learn algebra or to decide which siding is best for my house--that is insanity. I don't play "Bible roulette" to decide which ice cream to buy or which job to take (unless some moral principle is violated in the latter). If I need a tooth filled, repaired, pulled I don't look in Exodus or Proverbs I go to the dentist. If my car needs oil, I put it in. Does the Spirit lead you to choose Mobil 1 over the store brand? Do you pray before you buy ground beef or ground chuck for your chili? I have to confess, I don't even think about spiritual things when I choose steak over pork chops.

Give an example Bob, of what the heck you are talking about how the Spirit leads you apart from the Scriptures.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

When you 'blitzed' in the old days, did you approach every single person or group of people you met, or did the Spirit indicate to you that 'this one' is ready or to pass 'this one' by maybe because they're not?

Does the Spirit sometimes lead you to particular passages of Scripture which you otherwise would not have gone to?

Does He perhaps give you an unusual approach for a particular individual?

To me these are cases where the Spirit might lead that have nothing to do with particular things expressed to you that day in the Word.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

And you're right about throwing your name in. It would have been better to avoid doing that. Please forgive me.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Nic, There's something the Word talks somewhat about called prayer. It's supposed to be communion with God. Jesus did it as our example. It's not meant to be in defiance of the Word. Please don't judge me for wanting to have a personal relationship with God Himself.

[Nic (56.0.103.25)]

Bob, I am not judging you and I don't know why you think that I am. When did I say anything against prayer??? Sometimes you write the strangest things

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Nic, I don't mean to offend, really. But when you speak to God in prayer, does He speak back? Does He ever tell you what to do, or not to do? I have to believe that every day, Jesus spoke with the Father, and that the Father spoke to Him; and that what the Father spoke were words from God. Words that were pure and eternal and right and particular. Is this not what you want?

[Anonymous (141.157.103.223)]

What you wrote was true Bob -- Jesus spoke with His Father daily and the Father spoke to Him as well...but the Father was God which is what I think you meant to say.

Maria T

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

When you 'blitzed' in the old days, did you approach every single person or group of people you met, or did the Spirit indicate to you that 'this one' is ready or to pass 'this one' by maybe because they're not?

I have to confess, Bob, that I put this in the same category as eating chocolate or strawberry. I talked to whoever I wanted to, or whoever would listen. I still pray that God will lead, but I don't use the "Spirit" as some sort of "divining rod" to tell me "Go talk to that one" although in retrospect it was clear that God was leading. However Bob, evangelism--however you do it--is in grateful obedience to Christ's command in the WORD--else why do it at all.

Does the Spirit sometimes lead you to particular passages of Scripture which you otherwise would not have gone to?


See, again, I am really not "spiritually tuned in" here. Lots of things remind me of passages of Scripture--but I wouldn't be reminded of anything if I hadn't read it in the first place. And I can honestly say that I am reminded most of those Scriptures where I have invested the greatest amount of study.

Does He perhaps give you an unusual approach for a particular individual?

I am a born "unusual approach" to almost everything--so it's hard to tell. I would not attribute these approaches necessarily to God, unless perhaps there is some gift of the Spirit that God gives for certain circumstances--but how would you know that there were spiritual gifts at all apart from the Word? And isn't it better to see someone who loves serving for example, and doesn't even realize how gifted they really are? My wife is very gifted at organizing events, as is my 6 year old--I am sure God has blessed them--but they are hardly conscious of it being necessarily "spiritual" although I think it is--but we learn these things in the Word.

To me these are cases where the Spirit might lead that have nothing to do with particular things expressed to you that day in the Word.

Bob, I don't believe in accidents, or in coincidence. I believe in Providence. Sure, it is the confluence of events and wills that we see, but all is God at work. Do we need to analyse this as the work of the Spirit? We are told to "keep in step with the Spirit." This involves a "walking" with Him. The walk involves the bearing of the fruit of the Spirit. So in this case, Bob, yes I believe in the sanctifying work of the Spirit in all the details of our lives--but we would not know of fruit, leading, gifts, presence, conviction, intercession were it not told us in the Word of God.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Yes, and we can walk in what we have learned from the Word as the Spirit calls it to mind and shows us how to live in the particular application of it to our cirumstances and our relationships.

Living our life out of the source of the Word and the Spirit is in a sense like learning to play music. If you play well and you really know what you are playing; then you don't have to look at every detail and nuance as you go. Much of it becomes 'second nature'. Just so we can 'soak' in the Word and in prayer in the Spirit, and it changes us and makes us more fit for God's particular purpose or elements of purpose. We become more sensitive to His leading. This is all by grace and mercy, and not really to our credit. We can walk in it if He gives it and does it in us. Some people can't even carry a tune. And some are great musicians but terrible singers, or vice-versa. God has a unique spiritual disposition which He has given each of us. We are not just products of systems of teaching. He has purposely designed and cultivated each one, and gives us particular ways to interact and fit together.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Jim, Have you ever read Brother Lawrence's little book, 'Practicing the Presence of God'? When David fought lions and such for his father's sheep, was he relying on God's actual presence on his behalf, or on what the Word said about Him? Are post-New Testament believers to have a less personal walk with God than David or Abraham or Moses; now that we have His Spirit within us? Do you not 'feel' His presence when you pray? Does He not speak to you within yourself? Don't you want Him to? I don't have an underlying agenda here.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.190)]

At GGWO it is said constantly that we are to live by every word of God. Nic said it, too - we must live by every word of God.

However, I recently rediscovered that Jesus did NOT say that man must live by every word of God. He said that man must live by every word that PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH of God.

Is there a difference as we consider Jesus's words precisely?

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

I don't think there is a difference. Jesus was quoting something as it was written in Deuteronomy. But if you're hung up on the words "proceeds out of the mouth", there are plenty of other scriptures that speak of living by the word and don't put it that way. Just go to your concordance and check it out.

[Anonymous (216.227.168.6)]

Hey Bob,
I hear what you are saying and I could not agree more with you. The issue is a living, authentic relationship with the father and the Son and the Holy spirit. It is the Word that that introduces us to them. I love the Word of God but I believe that its the menu that leads to the meal. The scritures are a guiding light, an empowerment and they lead me to a person who loves to relate to me in my humanity.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

"When David fought lions and such for his father's sheep, was he relying on God's actual presence on his behalf, or on what the Word said about Him? Are post-New Testament believers to have a less personal walk with God than David or Abraham or Moses; now that we have His Spirit within us? Do you not 'feel' His presence when you pray? Does He not speak to you within yourself? Don't you want Him to? I don't have an underlying agenda here."

David learned the presence of God from the Law and from Samuel and other prophets. See Hebrews 1:1ff. He would not have known about God otherwise, see how many times David and other Psalmists write how they love the law and statutes of God. The presence of God is not always something you feel. If we do at times, great. If we don't, He is still present. Oddly enough, I have "felt" the presence of God often during the communion service. I don't always expect to, nor do I trust that what I feel is always God's presence. Christ promises to be with us till the end of the age. He promises to dwell in us and that we will dwell in him. Those promises would be unknown to us apart from Scripture--which is the means to the end of knowing God. And if that is what the previous post intends then I agree. The objective of Scripture is to know the God who reveals Himself there, hence Scripture is the means by which the Spirit has chosen to introduce Him to us. That same spirit bears witness IN us that we are God's children. This is not done apart from Scripture but in concert with it.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

'David learned the presence of God from the Law and from Samuel and other prophets. See Hebrews 1:1ff.'

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, (2) in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

What do you suppose 'and in many ways' refers to? Is that included or closed in to what the prophets revealed, or beyond it?

This is somewhat tangential; but do you suppose that if there are current day false prophets, that God would choose to not have current day prophets of His own? I don't think being a prophet is such a big deal. We have examples of disobedient ones, and Saul prophesied more than once. One of those times he had been seeking to kill David, and would again following. I believe that a close walk with the Lord often leads to elements of 'the prophetic'. But that these things are somewhat subjective and often conditional and not to be taken in the same way as the written Word. But I believe that much comes to us from God in this manner.

Remember that Paul's own words were checked against the Sriptures by the Bereans, and he commended them for it. But if we do that today, you get mad at us for it. Maybe you're right in that, but these things are rather interesting. Moses could have been God's new deal. God stated it. Apparently it was 'God's will'. Moses said no, and God went along with him.

Does God not want our questions and doubts, along with our trust, faith and obedience? Sometimes obedience follows the raising of questions. Sometimes they seem to alter the course. Moses was given Aaron to work along side him, at God's direction. Did God 'change His mind', or was this all just part of His predetermined plan? Did the 'predermined plan' allow for meaningful interaction with it for Moses? When we pray, is it in the belief that our prayers can actually move God to alter events or people's destiny; or are our prayers really just something for us to do to keep us spiritually busy when we're not studying the Word?

If we can't bring God all our questions and doubts, we may as well just pretend and be robots. I think He wants to deal with the whole person, to get at the very heart of us. I think He invites a certain amount of Jacob-like wrestling with Him. We may get a life-long limp out of it, but we will have been touched by God.

Jim, I don't really mean the above to disagree with what you posted above it. These things just get stirred up in me, and I want to be wholly in His hands. I don't want to hide things under the rugs. The written Word which we have is vital. I strongly and emphatically depend on it. It is life for my soul. I'm also caught up in the Person Who spoke it.

Hebrews 1:3 "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;".........Hallelujah.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

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