Tythes and Offerings

[Mike (68.33.65.121)]

Can anyone give me ONE good reason why I should give my hard earned money, which of course is a blessing to behealthy and have good employment, to a ministry who will then dispurse it to current staff members who malign MY PASTOR behind his back ?

P.S. I hope one of my elders will see this and realize why the budget can't be met these days.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Mike, your question infers that you only have a problem with the elders speaking out off the record regarding Carl's wrongdoing.

Do you believe that Carl has done wrong? OR Do you think his behavior and actions have been righteous and biblical?

Do you think that the elders should cover Carl regardless of what he has done? OR Do you feel that they should speak out publicly?

I think that the better question is -

Why should anyone give their hard earned money to an organization with a long history of wrongdoing, spiritual abuse, decepetion and manipulation of its followers?

Even better questions -

Why stay in that organization?

Why not find a healthy church environment in which your tithes and offerings would not be subject to questionable use?

[Mike (68.33.65.121)]

The positive in the ministry far outways the negatives. The whole head is sick and the heart is faint. Since we are ALL human, there is no entirely HEALTHY environment anywhere. I just want to see changes here, and I beleive that if we affect the money and accountability of finances this will shake out the infidels

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Yes, you are right Mike, no place is perfect. But there are a lot of places that at least strive to be above board, honest, and non-abusive. Carl and GGWO make ZERO attempt to be honest, accountable, or non-abusive. Carl's sole purpose is to maintain his throne atop the GGWO empire. If you get in the way, beware.

You have swallowed the GGWO spin, hook, line, and sinker. Just about ANY church, imperfections and all, is better than GGWO.

Stop making excuses for the messed up conduct of Carl and the elders. These excuses have kept him in power for all this time. It's time to stop.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Mike, what is being "shaken out" of GG is not the infidels. If you believe that the Godly people who have left are infidels, you are either misinformed or downright deceived. Those who are leaving have been convicted of the wrong-doing of the organization and its leadership.

[Mike (68.33.65.121)]

I think you misunderstood me completely. Thank God that the ones who left have the conviction to trust God in what will be a fresh, although frightening time in their lives. I'm talking about certain individuals who continue to feed from the trough and talk trash about the ministry behind peoples backs. They should stop this doublemindedness.

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

Are you talking about the hypocrites who remain in this cult while bad mouthing it here on Factnet? Many still there believe they will be used by God to help deliver those still caught up in this organization's web of deceit! Let's face it, this "church" is a personality cult built around the idol Carl H. Stevens, Jr. No that CHS is out of his mind his "underlings" are scrambling to keep things status quo! No, Carl should have stepped down while he was ahead; now he will go to his grave exposed and ridiculed due to his bizarre comments from the pulpit! Poor old, demented man; God is trying to get his attention here and he's too stubborn to listen!

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

BTW Mike, "tythes" is spelled: T-I-T-H-E-S.

[Anonymous (63.27.69.251)]

Hey 64, do you know how to spell C-R-U-D-E?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

HEY 63 DO YOU WALK ON WATER AND HEAL THE SICK.

[Anonymous (63.27.69.251)]

I was writing about 64.26 ding-dong; not you!

[Mike (68.33.65.121)]

I'm not making excuses for anyone. I simply would like to see some changes that will heal the Body

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

believers shall lay hands on the sick

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

you can tell them exactly where you want your money to go, and follow it on your own. there are many people who work there that need your money to live...even if they are off.

the reason you should tithe is because God said to do it. Jesus said give to Caesar that which is Caesar's. in other words you do your part, and God will hold those who you give your money to accountable.

[Anonymous (63.27.64.90)]

Tithing is GOOD; but giving to a corrupt organization is a MISUSE of GOD'S money!

[Anon Brief (205.188.117.20)]

24. 58 - I believe that the correct context of "rendering to Caesar" is referencing taxes. What is it that Drago says? "Text without context is pretext?"

I agree 63. Giving to a corrupt organisation is poor stewardship.

[Anonymous (70.16.21.155)]

I tithe to God according to how He leads me and I will not give to organizations that are not of Him

[Anonymous (63.27.65.216)]

Yes indeedy 70...yes indeed!

[Mike (155.188.255.3)]

I have prayed and pondered about this issue for weeks and have decided, with the leeding of the Holy Spirit, to send money DIRECTLY to the mission field. I will first speak to several teams on my own. Then wait and pray again for guidance on where and how much to send according to the need.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

hey mike.. give it to the hare krishnas... its the same thing... why do you want to give it to their mission field? for them them to go and propogate "carlism" throughout the world?
remember... they adhere to GG doctrine out there in mamboland too

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Sounds like a reasonable alternative, Mike.

[Anonymous (68.83.101.114)]

For some time now, my wife and I have refused to tithe to GGWO. We have instead, at God's leading, sent our tithes to other Christian ministries that we believe are doing God's work, such as Billy Graham.
I have asked at the finance office, for a copy of some kind of annual report or budget that would tell us where our tithes are being used. They were very sketchy about having anything in print saying we need to trust that our tithes are being used to further this ministry. They told me that it would cost to much to print copies for distribution and they would "tell" us anything we wanted to know about where the funds are being distributed.

I don't know about you folks, but I have a need to know where the money that God has blessed us with is going to! It is called being a good steward. We will all have to answer to God for where it went. If my tithes are going to GGWO, WHERE are they REALLY going???

We think there need to be a public outcry for a printed budget to be distributed to anyone who wants one! It will probably never happen, but hey, we can dream...

Until then, I hope Billy Graham's ministry is richly blessed with the tithes we send!!

We simply don't know what else to do...GGWO has not been truthful or forthcoming with information...

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

If GGWO says it will be too costly to print and distribute their financial report, perhaps they could put it on their website. Then people could have the information they want, and it would not be costly

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Don't fall for excuses.....we are to be responsible for how we spend our money. If any organization refuses to disclose, then stop giving to them!
Any organization worthy of receiving our tithe would unquestioningly give the information.

[Anonymous (68.83.101.114)]

I have never seen a christian organization before that did not provide documentation for anyone asking regarding their finances...

ESPECIALLY A CHURCH!!!

Unless they have something to hide...

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

GGWO could easily make their finacial statement available either by printing it up or on line. There's definitely a reason for not giving it out.

Remember "Let The Prudent Keep Silent". Man, that title sounds like a threat.

Boss Martian

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

It is a threat...that's what cults do: threaten.

[Brie (216.99.185.50)]

I agree 100% with lee. A ministry this large needs to be held accountable to show members how their funds are being used. Especially when there are regular pleas from the pulpit about how funds are down and to give more. Then, of course, let's have one more offering for the new church, which we never actually find out what kind of progress is being made on.

Does anyone know who I should ask for a financial report? I think the suggestion was great about putting it on their website, which I will suggest. Maybe P. Estabrook could help them put a report together - isn't he a CPA? I agree that we need to bombard the office with calls asking for a financial report.

Whadda ya think???

[Anonymous (63.27.23.149)]

Read the post from the archives...

Monday, May 24, 2004 - 01:47 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear P. Marr, P. David Duff or Whomsoever,

Does Greater Grace World Outreach conform to standards established by ECFA: Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability?

Lets examine the following questions:

1. Does the GGWO Board of Directors conduct its financial and other operations in a manner which reflects those generally accepted as Biblical truths and practices?

2. Has there been an annual audit between the board and an independent Certified Public Accountant?

3. If so; is this annual audit in accordance with generally accepted auditing standards (GAAS) with financial statements prepared in accordance with accounting principles (GAAP)?

4. Does GGWO exercise management and financial controls necesary to provide reasonable assurance that ALL resources are being used (nationally & internationally) to accomplish the exempt purposes for which they are intended?

5. Has GGWO provided a copy of its current audited financial statements upon written request, including financial information, on ANY specified project for wich it is soliciting gifts?

[Hmmm? I wonder if this includes the right of an account of Basement Waterproofing and MBC&S's arrangement for "cheap" labor in exchange for tuition remission of Bible college students?]

6. Do GGWO Board of Directors avoid conflict of interest? Are transactions with related parties undertaken ONLY if all the following is observed:

(a)A material transaction is fully disclosed in the audited financial statements of GGWO.

(b)Is the related party excluded from the discussion and approval of such transactions

(c)A competitive bid or comparable valuation exists

(d)GGWO's Board of Directors has acted upon and demonstrated that the transaction is in the best interest of GGWO.

7. Has GGWO complied with the following ECFA Standards for Fund-Raising?

(a)Truthfulness in Communication

(b)Communication and Donor Expectations

(c)Communication and Donor Intent

(d)Projects Unrelated to Primary Purpose

(e)Incentives & Premiums

(f)Financial Advice

(g)Percentage Compensation for Fund-Raisers

(h)Tax Deductible Gifts for a Named Recipient's Personal Benefit

(i)Acknowlegement of Gifts-in-Kind

(j)Acting in the Interest of the Donor

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

They keep crooked books. They have millions of unaccounted for cash. Cash that does not show up in the books. Think about it folks, they paid Alan Lang over a half million in cash. From what I heard, without even a fight. Without causing a dent in the budget (because it was not in the budget; wink, wink.) Without it being felt anywhere within GG ranks. The Lang lawyer called Marr requesting restitution of this amount. Bingo! Cash passed out without a blink. Your cash, not their cash and certainly not God's cash, your cash.

You will never see written statements of their funds. Why do you think they turned down the Billy Graham organization's offer of help back in the 80's? Their offer included the need of financial accountiblity. Carl said "no thanks." Why do you think he left the Bible Speaks behind? Court-appointed comptroller.

It has always been about the money.
No, it has always been about the power.
No, it has always been about the sex.
No, no, it has always been about money, sex AND power.

And the rest of us thought it was about God.

[Anonymous (68.83.101.114)]

OK...so if wew will never see an actual accounting of their funds, does anyone have an idea as to how we can effectually force them to comply??? If I have to answer to God for where my tithes go and how they are used, then why shouldn't GGWO have to do the same???

There has to be a way to get them to come clean...I am angry at the leadership that they would ignore not only me, but the many thousands of people who, over the years, have given their hard earned money to this disaster of a ministry!

Let's think together and come up with a way to set this straight. Not so much for me and my family, but for those that have very little and have given to this ministry. We owe it to them to help uncover the truth.
I believe it is our duty as Christians to help those that cannot help themselves and uncover deception.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Maybe Arguendo could offer some specific plan. He/she has researched and offered us sites concerning IRS, non-profit's. We also heard the illegality of the foreign student visa situation. Maybe someone like Ron Kirkwood could offer some important information which we could in turn, disclose to the proper authorities. One of the governmental agencies could pull their protection from inquiries.

[Anonymous (155.188.191.5)]

.