Hate Incarnate Jim Faucett

[Anonymous (67.243.131.7)]

I have noticed a change in Jim Faucett from the time he was hiding his true nature as Cordell Walker till the present where wields hate under the guise of truth.

He is free of love, compassion, caring, concern, or any shred of human decency.

He has written that he does not care for any sort of healing for the wounded.

He is concerned with one thing only: being right. It does not matter one bit who he steps on. They are merely trophies to display on the altar of his ego.

He delights in grinding down those who are hurting and looking for answers.

Hate is his only true companion and friend.

God help any person in need of a comforting word if the commit the sin of disagreeing with him.

He will be filled with pride over yet another thread with his name in the title.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Oh, give it a rest

[Anonymous (67.243.131.7)]

Why don't you tell Jim to give it a rest? This is MILD compared to his bile.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

I want to give Jim a big HUG!

Seriously, he has to be going through something rough these last few days. And he's strangely missing.

Hope you're OK, Jim.

Boss Martian
Loves his enemies (but Jim ain't the enemy)

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Boss,
That was really kind of you, and I am impressed that you have the character to post that, despite your differences with Jim and despite the 'angry mob' mentality on here lately.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Jim, I don't hate you.....never have. I don't like these kinds of threads and I don't like being classified as one of the 'angry mob'. Although your essay on Barrabus angered me and I think its wrong to do that to us, I don't see myself as part of a mob....Nic, I don't know what to say to you. Your opinions are locked into a steel trap.....I only wish you freedom in the Spirit of God. Why not enjoy the word you have so diligently searched? Ah, never mind, who am I to talk to such a learned person!
But Jim, I've always thought highly of you and wish we could have more of a singleness of purpose in the time we spend here on factnet. I enjoy the challenge you put forth using the word but overiding that, I at least am here to speak the truth about GGWO and hope that we can be used to bring light to the darkened minds still at GGWO. I know many are reading here. Many still have a glimmer of hope that they will know the word, and serve God. I'm tired of these good folks having to do that within such a corrupt group.

I sense within you a very strong love of God and an incredible effort to know him. I will always respect that, even if I get mad at you.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Jim drives me to my knees over and over again. God has used him in my life.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Lee,
I never classified you personally, but there definitely was that angry mob mentality on here.
And you have no idea who I am, or maybe you would see that your evaluations of me are not true. Just because I really believe the word does not mean I don't enjoy it or don't have freedom in the spirit. And I definitely don't consider myself "such a learned person", but I do write what I think here as everyone else does.
Lee, I knew you in Lenox and I really like and respect you and Jack. My opinions are certainly not always popular here, but I write what I really feel and believe.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Nic, I will say this as kindly as I possibly can.......you have no idea how you come across. Your words are sharp and cut deeply and seem to do so without provocation. Where a simply stated opinion, made with a touch of grace would go a long way, your words have a way of making us feel as though we were just butchered. From where I stand, and what I've read, you seem to be someone who would benefit from some real R & R.
God bless

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Nic,

Did we know each other? Anyway, I have never faulted you for your convictions. In fact, I respect your honesty and the clarity of your thinking. And your disagreement with me has never been an issue. What is offensive and hurtful is that you cannot acknowledge that growth in God is a process--that I could be wrong in some areas and still be one of His own. You see me as Satanic; how could I not take offense at that? I have never once sensed a modicum of compassion or understanding from you. It is not the narrowness of your beliefs that is the issue; it's the rigidity of your response--you are more comfortable believing that people who don't line up are destined for hell than to entertain the idea that God sometimes works outside of your limited understanding. You think because you are faithful to the Word that you have all the answers.

I have gotten to know quite a few people from this board who believe as strongly as you in the trustworthiness of the Scriptures. But they have acknowledged God's Spirit in me and that, more than anything, has encouraged me to keep on seeking for truth.

-Karen

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Karen,

I only know Nic from her posts here but I sense a common symptom of many in and now out of GGWO. That is an established comfort zone within the narrow world of black and white. I am sure MuskyRose could expound further on this subject. There is security in the boundaries of strict black and white. To step outside of those boundaries may cause some to crumble. Especially if their background before TBS/GG is one with dysfunctional family issues. Maybe the rigidity in responses is a long held defense mechanism. It has everything to do with issues within and though it is directed outward, towards you for instance, it really has nothing to do with you. Nic, if I am far off the mark maybe you could explain why. You are on FACTNet for more than one reason and maybe God wants you to move away from this mentality?

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Thank you, 152, for your input. We are all victims of an abusive system, and with God's grace, we will move forward to where He wants us to be.

Nic, I so wish you could open your heart to me.

-Karen

[Nic (56.0.103.24)]

Karen,
I believe in the Word but I am not always faithful to it, I fall short as everyone does. And I definitely do not think that I have all the answers. But I do think that the Word of God does. Most times when I am accused of being sharp or cold or whatever, all I have done is quote bible verses. I will say that I am disgusted by the lack of biblical truth on here, and the acceptance of anything as long as "it works for you". Whether we like it or not, Christianity IS a narrow way and there are boundaries. And I am not the one who set them either.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I am doubtful if there are many here who have "tangled" with Jim more than I on this board, and he has frustrated me to the opoint of steam coming out of my ears, but this thread is ridiculous.

Jim may have anger, and a well defined sense of self, but hare? Nope....I don't see it.

This thread is ridiculous and unecessary.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Nic,

The way may be narrow, but God's methods for bringing us into that place may not be.

I want an authentic faith, not an empty profession--and I am willing to fight for it.

I had a sort of weird experience. I was sitting on my screened-in porch this past summer and I noticed a number of moths had found their way in, but could not get out. I also noticed that spiders had erected webs in several corners. I don't know why, but I felt tremendous compassion for these seemingly senseless creatures. I opened the porch door, hoping they'd find their way out. (I also felt sorry for the spiders who might go hungry. Okay, I am a conflicted individual.) Anyway, some of the moths immediately zeroed in on their only way out. But others kept beating their wings in futility against the screen windows. Frustrated by their lack of understanding and with an appreciation for the danger they faced, I got more proactive. I went inside and brought out a plastic container in which I trapped as many as I could. I felt a ridiculous amount of satisfaction in saving them from certain death and being able to set them free.

Could it be true that I had more compassion on the moths than you have for me?

-Karen

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

Karen,
I honestly do not know what to say to you or how to help you. When I refer to the bible or argue against some things that you have said, I am helping in the way that I think is best, by telling you the truth. I do genuinely feel sorry for you that you seem so disoriented and lost,and have been a Christian for so long and yet are still searching for truth. I can't honestly say that I totally understand that. But none of us understands everything about God or even feel that we agree with everything. All I know is that we can trust the Word of God, and that God is faithful. To me that has not been a problem, it has been a great comfort and refuge.
I only know you from FactNet, but I think you are one of the sweetest people I have ever encountered. But I feel you are really deceived in many areas, and only the Holy Spirit can break through that. I wish I could help more, but I think you need something beyond what I could do.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Thank you, Nic. Seeing your heart means everything. And I receive what you say and will take it to Him.

Back in my TBS days, I had the right profession and thought it was for real too. But my faith could not stand up to the challenges I encountered in the next church after leaving the ministry. When faced with unrelenting judgment, my faith crumbled in ruins. As I have shared before, God drew me back to Himself. I told Him then that I would never again submit to the systems of men; I would not allow anyone but Him to build the structures of my faith. It may seem to you that nothing of substance stands, but He is working on my foundation. The things He has taught me precept upon precept are the principles He considers most important for me at this time. Dear friends have told me that I am “unusual”—perhaps they mean I’m an odd one—but He has made me this way and knows that I don’t learn the way others do. (Funny, as a child, I was never able to color inside the lines--which used to drive my father nuts--but I was artistic and loved to draw.) There is a certain logic to the way I process things, and even if it appears that I am back to square one in terms of my theology, I am learning deep and life-transforming truths from Him every day. I believe He will pull it all together in His own time. Until then, I cling to the hem of His garment. I know my Redeemer lives.

-Karen

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Karen, It's not really that you don't color inside the lines. You just have different lines that are spiritually perceived. You don't have some of the boundaries that others have; but you have some that they don't. You are spiritually built on different principles than most, which adds to your unique spiritual flavor, which the Spirit Himself has given you. Not 'fitting in' hurts and can make you feel excluded; but it is part of the inner beauty you are given. One believer's narrow way can be the broad way for another and vice-versa. You are an enormous breath of fresh air. Someone let the sky in.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

I agree with you Roberta about the name of the thread; but there is some good discussion here.

[Rpberta (151.203.157.69)]

Doesn't the question of inerrancy still lie at the foundation of this discussion? This is where many have decided I am not saved because this issue isn't the basis of my walk with God. I don't believe the Bible must be inerrant to be believed,m loved, understood etc, and that the Holy Spirit will illumninate for me that which He will as I journey. As this happens I can understand more fully , without guilt, without questions, for it seems the Holy Spirit has a plan to illuminate the Word at the right moments in my life experiences where I actually can experience the word rather than just believe it blindly without the fullness. To follow where I am led, one step at a time, makes the lesson richer, and in the end more edifyng to me.

The problem I have encountered with others is that they require the blind belief BEFORE the illumination and experiences, and I can not do this, nor do I think God is as hung up about it as some are.

He knows the mountains I have climbed beside him and the valleys I have despaired in being comforted by him, and knowing all this he still leads me. I believe he loves my questions, my pasiion for him and is glad I still wish to follow after everything that has happened in my life.

I know now that the only stumbling block to a greater knowledge of his compassiom is to let him lead (verb) me into the truths I need.

Required belief in inerrancy seems counter to the process for me, and I concede that it is not for others. I would wish that I an other who know God this way could be respected, for asd Bob says, it isn't easy being out there on your own sometimes knowing people call you heretic, infidel, etc.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

When the Lord looks at you, He doesn't go check out other people's opinions to decide how He should view you. He looks at your own heart. The reality of what is there is what you have to give to Him and others. What He will give you is who you will be. He's not offended.

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Friends: I would like to say, that I personally have been very blessed by Jim. He has helped us when we were looking for a church. He has helped out with family members who were suicidal. One of them has actually been helped by his recommendation. I can honestly say that person would not be here now if he had not intervened with some help.
I may not always agree with him but I do think he cares very much about other people.
I have learned a great deal by his postings and have been prompted to look deeper into some of the scriptures.
I don't ever think it is a bad thing if it gets people thinking and trying to understand the Bible better.
Some of the most effective people are the most provocative and those that push you a little harder.
I am thankful for Jim and hope that he is ok. I think he is a good man.
In His Love,
Izzie

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

You are right,Izzie. Thanks for that edifying post.
I think the person who started this thread should apologize to Jim, or put their name in the title instead of his. Not one person here has gone along with your campaign of hate.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

jf is a stumbling block to a lot of people

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Well, the bible says that even Jesus was a stone of stumbling to certain people, and a rock of offense. I think Jim tells the truth in a biblical way, and the truth can be a stumbling block to people who want to make up their own truth

[Dave Carson (65.234.188.234)]

Short and simple - Jim has done more to bring the sins of the TBS/GGWO leadership to the light than anyone else here. I am proud to call him a new-found friend.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I think we are only equipped to bring our own individuality to this forum and others should be gracious enough to receive the individual as he/she is. This includes Jim or Roberta or Nic or whoever. I am thankful for Jim's passionate cause of exposing the errors of TBS/GGWO. He is missed.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Jim has done his part,true, but not more than anyone else. There are many many people here and behind the scenes doing much also that isn't mentioned. Jim knows this. He'd be the first to say so.

It has been my prayer that Jim has learned as much from the others that post here as the rest of us have. I am sure he has.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

One thing that Jim has done way more than most is bring a true biblical perspective to FactNet

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

jim thinks he is going to get into heaven with his bible knowledge not the relationship involved. its like the catholics. they may consider themselves "christian
" but all their rites and rituals arent even getting themclose to the front door

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Those that have brought biblical perspective without the accompanying condemnation have helped, Nic, I will not disagree. But the method the Jims in the fundamnetalist camp have alienated many and I think it is a shame. As I said in aprior post, the method employed by fundamentalists are okay if that's what brings them to a closer understanding of God. But to condemn others who are not inspired to a closer relationship with God is a serious problem and one we have discussed before. Often a lack of consideration and a lack of respect for another's walk with God is alienating, and I don't belive that is Godly.

If passionate fundamentalists could tone down the accusatory tone they would draw more than they hurt.

Just like you said you understand the gist of Jim's rather biting and inflammatory thread "Give us Barrabas", I understand the place where the author of this thread is coming from. I would not have stated as this author has, but I fully understand why rhe person feels the way they do.

Jim's 'take no prisoners' attitude has hurt too many to be a good thing. I know where he's coming from, he and I have spoken about it...I wish he could understand. I like Jim, but I wish he's ratchet back a bit sometimes. I often think he's more of a victim of GGWO than he cares to admit even to himself.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

If being presented with biblical truth condemns someone, or does not inspire them to a closer walk with God, I don't think the problem is with the bible. You say it is the methods or the way it is presented, but truth should be presented as absolute and not just as one of many options.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

I have been spending a lot of time in the gospels lately. I want to immerse myself in the scriptural account of Jesus and His direct words. The following passages really gave me a lot to think about:

“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life…but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves” (John 5: 39, 40, 42).

“He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water’” (John 7:38).

It seems that for those of us who have gotten off track after the ministry, there are two kinds of errors we’ve fallen into to: (1) those of us who have become distrustful of the Bible because of the way we’ve been manipulated by it (I fall into this category—no surprise!); and (2) those who have embraced the Scriptures, but have shut out the Holy Spirit.

What I have been looking for in those who are ministers of the Word is the “living water” and “love of God”; in spite of my blind spots, I am acquainted with His Spirit. I know Him and I know His Voice. True, my ability to handle the “meat” may have been diminished by my wounds, but I have kept my heart open to Him and so He’s been able to bring me along. I am growing in trust of the Scriptures daily—though there is still much work for Him to do.

Always when someone is offended by the manner in which some deliver the Word, it is said of him/her that this person just can’t receive the truth—because of course, Christ is a stumblingblock to those who are perishing. But there are different kinds of stumblingblocks spoken of in the Scriptures. In Matthew 18, Jesus says: “woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!” (v. 7). Of the Pharisees, Jesus said that “they tie up heavy loads, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger” (Mt. 23:4). But Jesus said of Himself: “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Without the life of the Spirit, the Word is administered like law and it kills. And what has been distressing to me is the seeming satisfaction some have taken in turning seekers away, instead of revealing God’s life to them so they may live.

I challenge all to allow the Spirit to search our hearts. When we speak, what spirit are we of?

[Nic (56.0.103.24)]

Karen,
I don't think that everyone who has left the ministry has gotten off track, and I don't think you can classify people neatly into two categories either. What exactly do you mean by "embrace the Holy Spirit"? The Spirit and the Word are one, they are never in contradiction. Jesus said "sanctify them in thy truth, thy word is truth".
I know what you are saying about how the letter kills without the Spirit, that is true. But sometimes that principle is used to dismiss any kind of biblical truth that people don't like or agree with. It is easy to say that someone is giving the Word without the Spirit based on your own personal feelings, but what exactly is the basis that determines if it is in the Spirit? Do you "feel" it is in the Spirit because it makes you feel good? Sometimes truth comforts and makes you feel good but not always.
"In the Spirit" can be a vague and arbitrary thing that everyone has a different opinion on.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Nic,

I didn't say everyone who has left the ministry has gotten off track, but my observations of those who have seem to fall into two categories.

I want to say that my experiences with the Holy Spirit don't always make me feel good. I think I have demonstrated that I am corrected by Him all the time. I know this will seem judgmental, but it is not intended to be. I believe those who confuse the presence of the Holy Spirit with subjective feelings have not learned to hear His voice. They think people who hear Him must be getting bizarre messages that come out of the blue. God never speaks to me outside of a context that He has constructed precept upon precept. There is continuity in the way He speaks and many ways He confirms what He tells me, including the Word. And I always find Him nudging me toward truths that are often hard to accept. Believe me, if I were going to create a God in my own image, He wouldn't be so challenging to me.

For instance, that story I told about the moths--God was speaking to me through the experience--and it wasn't stuff I wanted to hear.

I am learning about balance from God--how the Word and the Spirit work together. Even so, sometimes, what God reveals seems radical to people--even to those who are faithful to the Scriptures. Just read the gospel of John; it is amazing in its revelation of the Holy Spirit. Funny, but some people thought Jesus had a demon because of the way He heard from the Father.

Your issue with me is not really about inerrancy at all--that's just a smokescreen; because even when I speak about principles from the Scriptures, you balk. It is the way I hear from God that troubles and frightens you.

-Karen

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

1. Jim loves the LORD. He knows salvation is by grace thorugh faith is the only way to heaven. He is not trusting in himself, but in the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf at Calvary.

2. He has done much to expose and rebuke GGWO.

3. Sure, Jim is a hammer and we are the nails!!! Sure, he can be provacative at times. So can I and others who post here! At least he challenges us to think and consider what we beleive and why we beleive.

4. I consider him a friend even when I do not see/interpret something the same way. We have enjoyed many conversations over the phone. We talk about Jesus, our family, the church, biblical leadeship, the bible and many other subjects.

5. He is a very hard working man who loves his wife and children.

6. He is doing what any Christian who loves the LORD tries to do: working out his salvation with fear and tremblimg.

For Him,
Dave

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

Karen,
1. Excellent points regarding the Holy Spirit energizing our understanding. Dead letter orthodoxy can be just as damaging and destructive as loosey-goosey anything goes liberalism.

2. The Holy Spirit's work is revealed in the Bible. It is a great study and the perfect way to learn how He can lead us and open our minds to the Scriptures.

For Him,
Dave

John 4:23-24 We worship in spirit and in truth!

God bless you this weekend as you seek His face.
Jesus paid it all!

[Jeannie (152.163.101.12)]

Nic,

I really believe the concepts of what Karen shares with you is something you desire not to grasp.

Your reverence for the Word is apparent but you are missing the concept of "Holy Spirit to human spirit" which Karen keeps refering to. It is an added element to our walk and it is not subtracting from the Word one bit by embracing it.

I have a question for you... You believe the surity of you faith is completely based on the Word of God. Nic, this argument does not hold up with your own personal experience. You joined a church believing it to be a "Word of God" ministry. Instead you actually joined a group which took the very precious Word of God to manipulate and deceive. The pastor you esteemed as a serious tutor in the Word of God used it to promote himself and his own agenda. You were deceived, with the bible as your guide, you were deceived, Nic. So what was missing from your walk that brought such deception? The ability to listen to the Holy Spirit's voice within. Karen is expressing in her posts, in her unique preceptiveness, the unseen exchange life. She is the rare honest soul, not afraid to openly discuss her processes to all. She is offering you a glimpse of her exchange life. Why is she? And why is it we are all able to "see" the unseen within her and you are not? I believe she is being led by the Holy Spirit to reach out to you. Maybe from your time in GG you lost the added element of the intimate exchange life. GGWO caused us all to loose it to some degree.

If you do not want to consider these thoughts from Karen, then please consider contacting Jacqui Gough, DeDe Stoddard, Kathy Lutz or Linda Canino. These godly women will share with you their processes of exiting GGWO. The concept of listening to the Holy Spirit's voice is an important aspect and we have all reflected on it. It is one of the necessary processes in leaving and one of the most difficult. It makes us realize we were responsible for our wrong decisions. The bible is not a safety net which discounts us from all responsiblity because "we were doing it by the book." It is my opinion that you are using it as a safety net instead of dealing with some of the more difficult issues since leaving GG.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Well stated and thought provoking, Jeannie. Thank you.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Dead letter orthodoxy...interesting phrase, Dave.

The balance between the seen and the unseen, the known and the unknown lies in the truths between the extremes most often.

I generally equate orthodoxy as something to the left of fundamentalism these days. Orthodoxy is a concept that is much more meaningful to me. Perhaps, again, is it is semantics, but in today's world is seems necessary to delineate. I tend to view the staunch zealous approach to religion as a breeding ground for bigotry, hate and extreme political and religious fanaticism. And not just from eastern religions, as I have seen fundamentalist extremism in the Christian realm as well. Perhaps no physical bullets are fired but the unseen battlefield is litteres with casualties all the same.

When I spoke in other posts that I would rather see the people leave GGWO and be helped into other churches, I think I should have spcified that orthodox Christian churches are preferable to Carl's aberration (using your term).

Othodoxy versus fanaticism...yes, I think that speaks to the issue in a better way.

Just a thought or two (thanking God for coffee).

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

just a reminder about factnet taken from their home page..............

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[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

Karen,
I can assure you that I am not frightened by anything that you post. Troubled, maybe, but not in the way that you imply.

Jeannie,
Maybe I was fooled into thinking that Pastor Stevens was a man of character when he was not. But I was not deceived in the teaching from GG, except for a few oddball doctrines unique to them. They did teach the cardinal doctrines of the faith, and they also taught a proper respect and reverence for the Word of God. Many people on FactNet seem to have lost that. The real deceptions are in what many post here on FactNet. Including Karen, nothing personal against her. I respect her as a person and she is very sincere in what she believes, but sincerely wrong many times. I think that she is a very confused person. It doesn't matter to me if people on FactNet agree with her, if what she says does not line up with the Word of God then I do not accept it. You can assume, if you like, that my clinging to the Word means that I don't listen to the Holy Spirit's voice....I know that is not true. Call it a safety net if you wish. I have seen some of the posts of people who don't believe the whole bible, but claim to be 'led by the Spirit', and much of it is subjective nonsense. No thank you.
Please do not worry about me as far as exiting GG and dealing with difficult issues (and I have had very difficult issues with them). I don't consider it a deception that I was in GG. I believe that it was a Word of God ministry that once preached the word with power. But because of corruption in the leaders, it lost that. However, God's Word does not return void, and the Word that was invested in me there is still true, even if the men there became corrupt.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"I believe that it was a Word of God ministry that once preached the word with power."

I have heard this stated by others for years, and from any timeline that I have personally been able to piece together, with help from others who were in the ministry when I was not, I can find no time throughoutt the history of TBS/GGWO that there was not corruption of doctrine and behavior...egregious corruption, Carl's specifically, and the elders in general.

Please can you explain your statement with a specific time equal to the word "once"?

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I've been remembering back in the 70's when Jack and I , and so many others were first saved, there was what some refer to as the Jesus Movement. Many ministries were born at that time and many men came into promenance. Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, Pat Robertson,Rex Humbard and others, also the christian school movement became big......it was a time of great growth in the church. Some say it was a revival, some say an awakening. My point, is that many of us were saved then and got into TBS at that time. Or, were in other places looking and hungering for more. I used to say the same thing Nic says, about TBS....that it once preached the word. Well, perhaps it did somewhat, but mostly, I'm thinking that it was the times we were in that added so much to our experience. There was definately a move of God then, and we were stirred up. Carl was certainly dogging many reports of adultery and misbehavior then. We were coming out of the days of 'free love' 'flower power' . A war that we are ashamed of......we were ripe for a move of God.

Whether these men stayed steadfast and were not corrupted or some used the time to advance their own agenda, I think we have to remember that the times were different.

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

Roberta,
When I first encountered TBS, I had never heard anything like Pastor Steven's preaching in my life. Of course, I had grown up Catholic, and was newly saved, so I had not been to a lot of churches. But for years and years, there were powerful messages there, not just from P.Stevens but from others as well. You were there, and you know that there was life and an anointing (is that a taboo word to use now?) on the messages. It was not all a big phony scam. There was real teaching there, and the love in the body was real (and the body of Christ is not just a GG doctrine either). Going to bible school for me was the most fun time of my life, because of the people. I know that some things that were taught were wrong, but the fundamental (taboo word) things were not wrong.
It is true what you say about there being corruption behind the scenes probably since the beginning. But I think that God still blessed TBS by grace, and was patient and longsuffering, and it was still a fruitful ministry. But things got worse and worse, until, as it has been said before, the glory departed and in a sense God removed the candlestick. I don't think there was a specific time, I think it was a gradual thing. And in the past year it has come to a crisis point, where things are being exposed and people are reaping what they have sown. I think God was gracious and patient, but now is allowing that to happen. But I still think it is His church and He is just chastising and pruning. That is how I see it.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Nic,

I was so blessed by your last message. Yes, God was present in the ministry in a powerful way. I don't know how to reconcile that with what I know of Pastor Stevens. All I can say is that He used it in my life. Perhaps the biggest mistake all of us made was to assume that when He led us there, He was issuing a blanket endorsement of the place. I don't believe there is any place we are called where we can allow teaching to come to us unfiltered. God wants us to exercise discernment.

Nic, I know that you have strongly disagreed with my assertions/questions about the inerrancy of the Scriptures. I understand your disagreement and respect it. And since I am grappling with this very thing, I will not say where I will come out on this issue. But you say I am deceived in MANY WAYS. What specifically are you referring to? Can you tell me what I have communicated that is unbiblical?

Respectfully,
Karen

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Nic,

The funny thing is, that's how I always saw it too.

Perhaps I do not say it often enough, but I loved the ministry, for all the reasons you mention. I was so happy there. You have no idea at all how I wish it had been real and we still were all together there. For the first year on campus I was intoxicated with the life, the purpose the people, the messages. It was wonderful.

As to an annointing, I cannot now say. I cannot now be sure, knowing what this place really has always been, if the messages were annointed or not, if the fundamentals were misused or if TBS was blessed.

I will say I know God was present in me and in others I knew there. This is something I am sure of. Slowly over the three intense years of campus living, I knew the grieving of the Holy Spirit in me, but didn't understand or recognize it. I am not sure exactly the passage, but the Bible says His Word can be imparted even by those who mean it contentiously, and in my heart I know that to be true.

Fruit? I thought a long time about the subject after we left, and can also honestly say that the children who I taught in the Sunday School were given the truth by me in the simplest terms and with all the love I had to give them and God, and I know it to be a good seed planted in innocent soil that may someday bear the fruit of Grace.

I do truly understand you when you say you loved it and it was a happy time, for I still have precious friends and memories.

The disconnect happens for me when I see the rotten fruit outweighing the healthy fruit. And not just today.

When the veil was lifted and I could truly see the pain and sin and carnal/criminal nature of the leader and his chosen collaboraters I was, and am sickened. At first the betrayal was personal. I was terribly undone by the truth I finally saw and wanted to crawl away and die. I guess it is obvious by now that I am a passionate person. Until recently I was an all or nothing pesron. They said they were all that, but they weren't. They were liars, users, and it is a mystery that I stayed so long as the nature of the place unfolded.

Then once we left I began to hear the testimonies of others from as far back as the Sumner days ...terrible accounts of who Carl is, what he has done to people and the families he destroyed and it was that wretching pain all over again. And it has continued, the stories, I mean. I have talked to so many who have corroborated so much and, well...the fruit is not only rotten, the tree down to the roots is poisoned.

I believe as you say that God's grace kept us, but I don't believe that grace had anything to do with Carl's ministry, never has, never will. The miracle is that God kept most of us from perishing under the heavy yoke of the no grace ministry we were innocently in.

I am so grateful that God can use the seeds we did sew, as I believe he can will and does for the sake of those who went by faith to do his work. But I cannot believe that God has anything but the contempt you and Jim say He is capable of for Carl and all those that perpetrated sin and lies upon the innocent in His name.

That is why I hope the doors someday close on this place. I doubt that men will let that happen and God may have other plans. But the thought of more people being used, abused and manipulated by these ungodly hucksters makes me angry and sick to my stomach.

I do not see this as a church at all therefore cannot see it the way you do, Nic. But as long as there comes a time when the abuses are ended and these men no longer are free to hurt God's people I will be happy for that. I know the day someday will come and that's the only peace I know. God's Will be done whether I can understand it or not has been my motto and I will stick to it even if the outcome isn't what I prefer.

This crisis point has been reached before and nothing happened to end the lies and abuses. I pray this will be the time.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

I am sure many folks felt all these emotionally charged anointings in Bible Speaks now Greater Grace at the same time this incident in the below article occurred. For all of our personal good feelings we had with TBS/GGWO there are hundreds more testimonies of human lives ruined beyond repair.


Article from The Wakefield Daily Item
WAKEFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS WEDNESDAY, APRIL 22, 1987 30 CENTS 245-0080


Oak Street man `changed' Family, friends ask Why?'

By BOB BURGESS

WAKEFIELD - When two young children found Bobby Fisher's body on Thursday, Feb. 19, much of this winter's snow was still on the ground. February school vacation was coming to a close, and the youngsters were outdoors enjoying their days of freedom from the classroom. Sometime around 2 p.m., while tirelessly plowing their way through the woods behind the basketball court at Mapleway Playground, they discovered his body.

Bobby Fisher, with seemingly insurmountable pressures from within and without, had taken his life in the last 12-24 hours. What happened to this handsome, athletic, bright 22-year-old will never fully be known. People who were close to him, however, from his Waltham High School football coach and sister Lisa to his wife Joanne speak respectively of his leadership qualities, his intensity for achieving more than he already had, and of his love for God.

Somewhere along the way, however, an inability to work due to physical ailments and the death of his infant son may have been too much for him. He and his wife were living on Oak Street in Greenwood at the time of his death.

Lisa (Fisher) Taylor, Bobby's sister, remembers her brother as a "very athletic" teenager and young adult who liked hunting, fishing, football and baseball while growing up in Waltham. She reminisced about his spirituality and his hunger to give as much of himself as possible. She spoke proudly and at length last week about Bobby being named Homecoming King and the "best looking" male in his high school graduating class.

But Lisa also said Bobby went from being a leader "who was smiling all the time" to a man who stopped smiling, failed to keep in touch with friends and who threw out his high school yearbook about the same time he joined the Wilmington branch of The Bible Speaks.

By all accounts, the church, based in Lenox and presently involved in a federal bankruptcy court case with millionairess Betsy Dayton-Dovydenas, played a big part in Bobby Fisher's life over the last two years.

His sister said Bobby attended noon mass at a Waltham Catholic church every day when he was home on breaks from the University of New Hampshire, where he attended under a partial athletic scholarship. But he became turned off by what Lisa calls the "coldness" of the Catholic worship, and decided that it was time to look for another church. He joined The Bible Speaks in the summer of 1985, and left UNH.

Bobby's football coach at Waltham High was Bob Connors, present coach at Wakefield High. "He was a real fine kid," Connors said, "and a great athlete to coach. He was our spiritual leader that year."

As a starting cornerback. Bobby led the 1982 Waltham High football team's defensive unit, nicknamed "The Dirty Dogs." The team was undefeated going into its Thanksgiving Day game with Brockton. where a trip to the Division I Super Bowl was at stake. They lost the game, Connors said, much to every player's disappointment.

Connors remembers Bobby Fisher as a young man who was "always smiling, and always good in class. Teachers never had any problems with him." Connors added that Bobby was "never depressed."
Bobby also was the catcher for Waltham High's baseball team, and Connors said "he was pretty much the leader of that group too. The kids respected him."

Connors also said that he learned Bobby was living in Wakefield during the 1986 football season, and talked with him near the end of the campaign. He and Bobby made tentative plans to go out to dinner when the season was completed, but Bobby never returned a call to set up a date and time.

After Bobby's wake, Connors said he talked with some former teammates, and "everybody was absolutely shocked. But they told me he just wasn't the same Bobby who played with us."

Sometime after Bobby joined The Bible Speaks in 1985, he met his wife, and they were married in November of that year. They were both deeply committed to the church, with Bobby teaching children in Sunday school.

Bobby's wife, who still belongs to the church, said last week that "If he were alive today, he'd still be in the church, worshipping God. He loved God with all his heart."

"I loved him deeply, and he was a good husband," she said. Bobby was working for the Parrella Construction Company when he and Joanne Fisher were first married, but he contracted a form of mononucleosis over the winter of 1986, and was laid up for months and out of work All the while, he still belonged to the church.

Lisa Taylor said Bobby was making about $400 a week as a construction worker, and gave $40 a week to the Wilmington branch of The Bible Speaks.
"The bottom line," she said, "is that things just went right downhill at the time he joined the church."

Rev. Michael Garrigan, a Bible Speaks pastor, called the Daily Item the day after a message was left for John Palmer, who runs the Wilmington church but was out of town. Pastor Garrigan said "Bob Fisher's death was a very untimely, tragic thing. It was too much of a tragedy for all people concerned to discuss anything about Bobby and his relationship to the church."

He also was asked to answer some charges that Lisa Fisher had made about Bobby turning against his past when he joined the church. Garrigan, answering a question about whether the church stresses the importance of itself over member's families, said "This is just a Biblical, New Testament church."

The pressures of being out of work, and of losing an infant son later in 1986, however, appear to have weighed more heavily on Bobby than The Bible Speaks did.

Other charges have been made against The Bible Speaks. and its leader Carl Stevens, however. The majority of them deal with the division of families and deception to keep membership faithful. None of the charges have ever been proven.

Saugus resident Tom Sullivan has been waging a war against the church, which has as members three of Sullivan's adult children. Sullivan has alleged that the Rev. Stevens has "mentally enslaved and brainwashed my children," whom Sullivan claims look upon him as a "non-believer" because he protests their involvement in the church.
Sullivan claims he was physically attacked by members of The Bible Speaks when he picketed in front of the church's Framingham branch. All he wants is to get his children back.

A support group for Bible Speaks members who elect to leave the church, called Twelve Inc., was involved in a picket of the Lenox campus in June 1986. The president of the group, James Bisgrove. claimed that the church divides families and uses deception to earn the loyalty of its members.
The Dovydenas case, in which the millionairess is trying to reclaim about $7 million she donated to the church, had final arguments heard last Thursday in federal bankruptcy court in Worcester.

Also at stake, in addition to $7 million, is The Bible Speaks First Amendment rights. The Bible Speaks has 70 churches around the world, and spokespeople for the denomination say it adheres to the standards in the Bible.

[Jeannie (205.188.117.20)]

Gosh Nic, You break my heart with your words, thank you for expressing them here. Carl did not instill good doctrines in you and then threw in a few oddball ones. It is the Holy Spirit already within that acknowledged the truth spoken. Carl did not teach truth. His teaching were twisted and self-motivated. But you heard the Word from your pure heart and grew. This interaction was between you and the Lord. It had nothing to do with Carl and GG. And it had everything to do with with your desire to know Him. Please Nic do not equate true honesty, as Karen writes, with deception. Karen is honest about the process of getting to know Him. We lived in such dishonesty within GG. Don't equate the fruit of your walk to GG or Carl. Your love and sense of Christ is in spite of Carl and not because of him.
Nic would you consider just maybe, God is speaking to you through others. To be quite honest, I have someone close to me that processed the same way as you. They saw the present evil but refused to connect it to the past. It took months for them to see the whole picture. The present is the truth being revealed by God, it relates to the past. There are not compartments to this whole process of leaving. Please don't miss all that the Lord has for you by compartmentalizing your GG experience. God bless you Nic! Email me if you feel led: Jeannieree44@aol.com

[rj (151.203.157.69)]

Oh Louise. I had forgotten about Bobby, how could I have forgotten??

I remember the picketing, and how nasty Carl was about Tom Sulivan.

I am still so stunned that I actually forgot about Bobby.....omg

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

Karen,
There have been so many threads over the months that I honestly can't remember or find specific things that you said. I just know that there have been many times that I remember you posting things that questioned or contradicted what I know to be true from the bible. One example I can think of is when you said you can't accept parts of the bible that go against what you believe to be right. Another is when you said that you asked God to show you that the bible is inerrant, and you said it never happened but "quite the opposite" happened. To me that meant you thought God told you parts of the bible were in error. Also your views on not being part of a church, which I see as important and something we are told to do. I am sure that I will find more examples in your future posts.

I do not mean to be unkind to you and I do not think I am better than you. I do think that what I believe is the truth though, because scripture backs it up. I am just answering your questions honestly. It would be easier to be phony, and say whatever you feel brings you closer to God is fine, and most people on FactNet would agree and probably like me better too. But that is not what I truly believe.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Your belief is based them upon absolutes written in the Bible. "Backed up" as you say.

In another thread on predestination you have disagreed with accepted other beliefs on the subject. It that a matter of interpretation that causes the disagreement? I mean, if the Bible is the authority how can two interpretations exist and both proponents be right?

I ask in this fashion, because it is usual for biblical purests (purposely not using the term literalist here) will claim complete comfort with scripture and refuse to walk without a net into sometimes unchartted waters.

I find it rather new and fresh to follow God in a complete no-net faith walk in life. Not that I don't love the bible, for I do...but I want more than blind faith and obedience...I want what I first knew as a new believer...that first flush of revealtion of His grace in each situation, like a slow blooming rose, as each day comes, new movement of the Spirit brings with it a fresh new look at old things I once just said must be true because it was in the bible.. I remeber the first rush of God's love when I finally understood the true nature of it, and I want that exciting revelation of Him and the bible and the spirit every day...I turned away from blind acceptance for it no longer comforted me.

Perhaps I am explaning it badly...I want the daily dose one drop at a time to savor, not the whole treatment all at once and no revelation that relates to my daily experience.

Perhaps each of us need Him in a different way. This way is bringing with it new love, fresh understanding, more love for my fellow human beings...I don't see that this way could be construed as "off" or without His blessing. I love the freshness this has....it is wonderful.

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

Roberta,
You know that predestination is a sore spot with me. Yes, it is a matter of interpretation, and only one interpretation can be right. That is the problem, knowing which one. That subject is one of the hardest ones in the bible, I think. Just because I struggle with it does not mean that the bible is not absolute or true. My understanding it is not what makes it true.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I understand that. I was only using it as an example. I can honestly say I only know for sure that which the Holy Spirit illuminates for me, and predestination isn't one of those sunjects yet...*s*

If the bible is inerrant, God will bring me to that understanding if I am willing to she shown, and I am. My once strongly held belief in absolutes has changed. God loves me though I know to bring me back to that place if that is where He wants me. I believe he is the only physician that can heal these doubts and he is being the ever patient father with me and for that I am greatful. One step at a time and the race gets won. It seems I once more seek his living presence in my daily life and after years of not caring at all, it is a sweet turn of events.

I wonder if we ever knew each other Nic. I wish you peace and am glad to converse without squabbling...Factnet has helped me a lot even after 15 years away from TBS. *s*

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

Maybe we would recognize each other if we saw each other, but I don't think that I know you.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

You might have seen me in Lenox at the bookstore, I knew a lot of people by sight then....I loved that job *LOL* I got to meet a lot of people from all the branch ministries. One of my dearest friends worked there with me and our friendship has lasted all these years.

For all that happened, it still strikes me odd that nealrly all my friends, my husband, my best friend...are all people I met at TBS.

I still miss those who are still in the ministry. I can only pray for them.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Fair enough, Nic. Thanks for your honesty.

-Karen

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Nic, Do you experience the anointing on the Word read and spoken to you now in intensity equal to that of the Lenox days? The anointing is not less for me now, in the intimacy of my own living room in prayer, or in my car, or in prayer with other believers. Do you have less than you had? Karen senses God's voice personal to her. Do you? Or is it just faith in the Word? Is the Word hot for you?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Wow what a great thread. I love you guys and would love to knock back a beer with some and a coke to those who might stumble at it. When I first saw the title it made me want to respond with:

"MUUUUAAAHHAHAAAHAHHAHA MUUUAHHAHAHAHA COME OVER HERE MINI-ME AND HAVE SOME MORE CHOCOLATE!"

[Anonymous (201.135.206.207)]

If you bite and ravage each other, watch out - in no time at all you will be annihilating each other, and where will your precious freedom be then? (Gal 5:15 from The Message)