Are the Elders in Charge at GGWO

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Putting aside for the moment the question of whether GG is wayward church or cult, I'm thinking that perhaps the elders do not have true authority over Stevens. Maybe technically or legally. But my understanding is that he's appointed each of them, and he's the one they really answer to, rather than the other way around. They themselves might tell you differently, but I would expect that to only be for show. If they actually turned on him and tried to force change, I think he'd just pick up and take the marbles with him. The imaginary membership considers him the true spiritual authority. He could walk away with most of the money and the people and leave them with a hollow shell. Even if they have the $2 million that rumor has been floated about, he is the goose. The others don't lay those golden eggs. But when individuals get up and walk, they take bodies and earning power from the kittie. We each are responsible to occupy the ground we're on for the kingdom which is true. Indeed we are the ground, and the Lord is to be the occupier.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Interesting point Bob. One definately to provoke thought, sorry it won't provoke the changes that are needed.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Bob,

As you have alluded, Carl is DEFINITELY the goose (among other, less complimentary names).

The only reasons I can see for Carl remaining in the saddle are 1) the congregation is there for Carl so if Carl is removed, so is the congregation and 2) one of the elders is hoping to be named by Carl himself as successor.

Boss Martian

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Perhaps it would have been good if he had named Steve Quinlan his successor back when the CRI Report came out and made a graceful exit. It's interesting to think what might have been; but we go on with where we are.

[Nancy (70.16.6.129)]

The problem is Bob that the elders will not be straight forward with us. I love these men and I trusted them for years, but now it's hard to trust anyone. I trust the Lord and we are all His and He knew and knows and has the solution.
Thank you for your post. God bless you.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

When we were in Lenox, going to all the services, we didn't have a clue who the elders were. I remember hearing something about a board of trustees, who were said to be all people from outside the ministry. But they could have told us anything and done whatever they wanted. We had no say in their governmental procedures. I was a deacon there for a while; but it didn't mean anything. We didn't decide anything. It was an incredibly vague position. I can't even tell you what the purpose of the deacons was. I visited a few people, and met with two other deacons for a while to pray and talk about stuff (I guess). Maybe it was just supposed to keep us busy.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Nancy, I'm still praying for you to find someone to do studies in your home. Sorry that you've faced so much attack lately. I don't understand why people enjoy being mean. Love you, Bob

[Nancy C (70.16.13.71)]

Bob thank you so much for your kind post. You have no idea how timely it is. I really wish I knew what I've done to make people hate me so. Anyway I just take it to God. But when people are kind it just makes me cry. Thank you for taking the time to manifest Christ to me.

[Anonymous (70.17.128.228)]

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[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Does anyone have a current copy of the by-laws? I believe it states that the elders don't have the power to replace Carl, but I'd like to see it in writing.

Even if they did have the authority, I very much doubt they would be so bold as to oust Carl for fear of alienating the remaining large contributors and sold outs in the congregation. This poses an interesting dilemma for they are powerless until Carl dies.

Makes you wonder what they are praying about these days. *shrug*

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

It states in the by-laws the elders have the power to remove Carl. In fact, a year ago they had a letter signed removing him from power but opted for the family intervention instead (and paid for Bruce and Pam to be flown in) We all now know the results from that. They can remove him but they will not remove him.

[Anonymous (141.157.79.108)]

205 I heard the opposite from a pastor. Are you on staff? I heard the bylaws say he has complete authority and he appoints the elders.

[Anonymous (141.157.79.108)]

I heard the elders cannot remove him unless they get a legal document to do so due to inability to function properly. I also heard from an elder that they asked him to step down and he refused and this was just a month or so ago. Where do you get your information from?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Is there any way that we can read for ourselves what the actual by-laws state?

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

Who would have written these by-laws? Is it a standard church document or would he have written it himself? Boy this is such a good thing to know when going to another church.
I am wondering if these by-laws apply to all the affiliate churches? I am not sure how that works.
Could someone enlighten me as to whether or not Carl has authority at all over the affiliate churches? Also about who wrote the by-laws.

[Anonymous (141.157.79.108)]

no each of the affilliates have their own government. He has no authority over them but it is possible that they run some decisions by him before they make them

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"Could someone enlighten me as to whether or not Carl has authority at all over the affiliate churches?"

He holds undue influence through the long taught false doctrine of delegated authority...the unwritten truth.

[Anonymous (4.155.51.216)]

Marr gave the by-laws to that dweeb Carrick to post on graceways.org only to this date he hasn't done it.

They prove Carl has supreme power and nobody can take him out, from what I heard. Probably ain't true so don't believe me!! Sometimes you wouldn't believe the **** I hear that is all "****."

Where has Carrick been lurking anyhow?
He has those by-laws!!
Somebody email him and tell him we want to see them printed once and for all.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

He has Marr's version of the by-laws. I have talked to many leaders and ex-leaders from Baltimore who have seen the by-laws BEFORE LAST YEAR and all have stated the elders CAN remove Carl. Hey, they had the document for dismissal already written up and signed last September/October. Someone posted yesterday that an un-named elder stated they can't LEGALLY remove him. Now who does that sound like folks??? That is legalese spoken so well by Michael Marr. For the past year all we have heard is Marr changing the by-laws, writing up indictments against brothers in the Lord, sending out summons to leaders demanding by law they must come to the elders. Does this sound like Christianity folks?? Or does it sound the courthouse in downtown Baltimore? With armed guards and checking in before entering?? Scary thought is I trust the court system over this GG system because the foundation of our court system is based in biblical truth. GG no longer is. I don't care how many elders say their hands are tied by a legal document, there is a higher law and is the BIBLE. THERE JUST PLAIN OLD RIGHT AND WRONG. A child would know the difference! These men are liars and thieves. They can dress it up with smooth words and false humility but they fool no one except those the remain in the pews.

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

Amen 205. Thank you for that. Our law is much higher and we have much to answer for to our HIGHER AUTHORITY.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

"For the past year all we have heard is Marr changing the by-laws, writing up indictments against brothers in the Lord, sending out summons to leaders demanding by law they must come to the elders. Does this sound like Christianity folks?"

It doesn't sound like the truth.

Lawyers usually cannot unilaterally change by-laws of an organization, but they are usually responsible for proposed revisions to the by-laws.

By-laws can be constructed in a way that a certain member's vote must be cast with the majority in order for any changes to be made. It's rare, but it does happen.

Marr is not a prosecutor and cannot indict anyone.

Marr cannot summon anyone by law to be anywhere. At best, he may be able to get a court to summon someone to testify as a witness in a court proceeding.

I'm not saying this guy isn't twisting arms and rattling cages, but let's not make him out to be more powerful than he is.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

A good lawyer knows the law.

A great lawyer knows the judge.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

There are many of us that know the by-laws have been changed and there are some of us that have documented proof which has not been made public yet. The indictments and summons occurred, written by Michael Marr. He indicted Ed Lutz, Paul Stevens and Dr. Lewis. He sent summons demanding certain leaders be present at elder's meetings. Of course, they are not documents that would hold up in court but the poster was making a valid comparsion to how far away from true Christianity GGWO has become with a lawyer in power and not Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous (69.143.65.142)]

I heard about this website from a former GG member. About 10 years ago thorough a friend @ GG I got saved and never felt welcomed there. I was lied about almost immediately, and saw so many people get hurt. I cannot believe 10 years later how out of control you all are. It really makes me sad for Christ to see his children act this way. I'm so glad He pulled me away from GG shortly after I got saved. I hope you all survive this ugly ride.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

"indictment" means "a charge of a felony (serious crime) voted by a Grand Jury based upon a proposed charge, witnesses' testimony and other evidence presented by the public prosecutor (District Attorney."

"summons" means "a document issued by the court at the time a lawsuit is filed, stating the name of both plaintiff and defendant, the title and file number of the case, the court and its address, the name and address of the plaintiff's attorney, and instructions as to the need to file a response to the complaint within a certain time."

"subpena" or "subpoena" means "an order of the court for a witness to appear at a particular time and place to testify and/or produce documents in the control of the witness (if a "subpena duces tecum"). A subpena is used to obtain testimony from a witness at both depositions (testimony under oath taken outside of court) and at trial."

Again, none of these things can occur without a court and the occurrence of all these thing are public records.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Arguendo, You are correct. Michael used these terms but in the church setting. The indictments were "charges of serious crimes" against GGWO. I believe Paul's indictment consisted of 54 charges. I believe Dr. Lewis's listed 11 or 12 charges. Summons were just that, the party was summoned. In one such meeting, Pastor Guy Duff got up and walked out and was called on the carpet for leaving by the other elders. Again, though it is not "real court documents or procedures" the leadership of GG is deluded enough to believe they hold the same power and authority over the body as the court system. We KNOW it is NOT actual documents or proceedings but it is illustrated here to give others a truthful picture of how whacked out the situation remains at GGWO.

[Anonymous (155.188.255.5)]

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[NOT STARTING A WAR (70.16.4.96)]

I believe Arguendo. What he stated was true. Sorry, "152" but not all of your "facts" are true, some are indeed rather twisted. Awhile ago, 4.155 posted that Marr gave the by-laws to that idiot Carrick who has not yet printed them out on Graceways even to this date. There is no way that "Marr" could "legally" change those by-laws ALONE and they are a matter of public record like Arguendo stated.

Look, nobody likes whats going on behind the scenes, but things need to be properly and truthfully brought forward here. Then again there is so much "****" here on Factnet like 4.155 stated who the hell would know what to believe???

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

not starting a war:

You're right, there's so much crap on here its hard to filter through it all and come up with something true. However, there are voices that are truthful and consistent with the accurate history of the ministry and its leaders. I encourage all that know the truth and want this ministry and its people to come into the light to continue posting. I know a lot of us work behind the scenes to talk to many confused and dazed folks who need a voice of truth and reason, a comforting word admist the difficulty that darkness imposes.

Remember, Jesus doesn't cover what is left in darkness, only what is brought into the light. There is much that can be forgiven and made clean and new if it is repented of.

I believe anyone that truly wants to know the truth will find it and be liberated by it. Keep searching!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Well, Anon 70...if you know so much, what exactly ARE the facts?

And if these documents are part of the public record, produce them for us please? If there is little truth on FactNet, might you produce the facts please?

[Anonymous (64.12.113.17)]

Not Starting A War,

I reread Arguendo's post, he did say anything about the bylaws in that post. He was giving the definitions for indictments,summons and subpoenas. Which I, in turn clarified stating those were the terms used by Marr though it had nothing to do with the justice system.

I am speaking the truth as I heard it or witnessed it. I know for a fact, a year ago, the comptroller stated "Marr is changing the bylaws over my dead body." I know for a fact there is documented evidence of changes made, minutes of meetings changed, fabrications made to make the whole fly. I am now no longer a part of GGWO but I also have heard firsthand accounts of these things from men I respect who have since left.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I have no reason to not believe you 64. This sounds like business as usual for GG.

[Anonymous (64.12.113.17)]

Thanks RJ, I cannot believe it is a year later and these leaders have not come clean, not one iota!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

They never will. They never have and seem to feel they will always get away with this deciet and corruption. The number of lives and families these men have destroyed over the decades is tragic. They will have to face God someday and if they continue without repenting, I can't imagine what standing before God for them will be like.

[Anonymous (4.155.238.200)]

RJ (151) AND JB (64) ARE YOU STILL IN CONTACT WITH NEIL CARRICK? IF SO, ASK THAT JERK WHERE THE PRINTED BY-LAWS ARE THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY MARR QUITE AWHILE AGO. CARRICK BRAGGED THAT HE HAD THEM. WHERE ARE THEY??????

ANON 70 WAS JUST STATING THE FACTS OR ATTEMPTING TO STATE THEM.

TRUTH IS, THOSE BY-LAWS HAVEN'T BEEN CHANGED SINCE 1987 AND MY CONTACTS TELL ME THAT MARR HASN'T EVEN ATTEMPTED TO RE-WRITE THEM. WE WANT TO SEE THEM. IT WILL SETTLE THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL, AND THEN "70" CAN THEN SHUT UP!!!

JB IF YOU HAVE CONTACTS STILL AT GGWO THEN, HAVE THEM GET YOU A COPY OF THE BY-LAWS IF YOU CAN'T GET CARRICK TO PRINT THEM ON GRACEWAYS LIKE HE PROMISED.

AFTERALL, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SHOULD DO THE TRUTH TELLING AND PROVE IT TO US HERE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CHANGED, BECAUSE MY SOURCES TELL ME OTHERWISE, AND THAT SOURCE ISN'T "MARR" EITHER.

TRUTH IS, THE ELDERS WANT THE BY-LAWS CHANGED SO THEY CAN GET STEVEN'S OUT ONCE AND FOR ALL. IF THAT IS WITHIN "MARR'S" SCOPE OF LEGAL PRACTICE LET HIM AT IT SO WE CAN GET CARL OFF THE THRONE ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!