Give Us Barrabas

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

<CENTER>Give us Barrabas!</CENTER>

John 18:40 (ESV)
They cried out again, "Not this man, but Barabbas!" Now Barabbas was a robber.

Mark 15:7 (ESV)
And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barabbas.

Matthew 27:16-26 (ESV)
And they had then a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. So when they had gathered, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. The governor again said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you?" And they said, "Barabbas." Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.


Just as those who called out for the crucifixion of Christ there are posting on this board those who would rather crucify Carl Stevens than see him or any of the leadership at Greater Grace World Outreach ever come to repentance before a forgiving Savior. They would rather that the organization be destroyed rather than reformed, they would impose further heartache; more grieving of God’s Holy Spirit than act in love towards His people in that church. And even though I have struggled with the strictest possible definition of the word “church” I can only note that God writes to that body at Laodicea—much more deteriorated than Greater Grace—a church. These are God’s own lambs. This is part of Christ’s Bride. He has given himself for her. He intends to save her and present her spotless before the Father. Surely if Christ has died as much for this part of His bride as for any other, we can be patient with her and expect Him to do well by her.

Do we make alliances with unbelievers against God’s own people? Is that what the Holy Spirit of God calls us to do? Or do we act as iron against iron sharpening the countenance of our friends? Do we condemn and wish destruction? Or do we reprove, rebuke, admonish and call them out of their error? Do we excuse other more grievous sin and condemn them because we are the ones who are “hurt and abused” or do we keep a godly perspective on the more dangerous soul destroying doctrines abounding around us? God’s love does not end and it does not fail, even if we do. He has promised to complete the good work he began in us. He does not fail to keep what we have committed to Him against that great day.

The church of God has always been oppressed from without and suffered false brethren and doctrine from within. Yet Christ has promised that he will not have the gates of hell prevail against her. Consider the words of this hymn:
Though with a scornful wonder
we see her sore oppressed,
by schisms rent asunder,
by heresies distressed,
yet saints their watch are keeping;
their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
shall be the morn of song.

Mid toil and tribulation,
and tumult of her war,
she waits the consummation
of peace forevermore;
till, with the vision glorious,
her longing eyes are blest,
and the great church victorious
shall be the church at rest.
The scornful are the ones who will be glad if GGWO fails and crumbles rather than turns in repentance. The want the worst. They are panting like wolves for the worst. They enjoy the oppression of schism and the distress of heresy running rampant. But God has promised that His church, of which GG is a part, will be victorious.

Those amongst the dissidents posting here face the same sort of choice as that crowd calling out “Crucify him, Give us Barrabas.” Do you want the murderers and rebellious thieves who are hirelings and flee when the flock is attacked? Is that where you will find comfort? Do you think that just because someone is a dissident that they have a justifiable complaint? There are many here who have left GGWO and would have left any other evangelical church for the same reason—they were rebellious against God, not just the church government. They wanted their sin more than they wanted Christ. They accepted the agenda of the ungodly rather than Scripture. Do you too want Barrabas?

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Will Carl repent? Will he ever admit any sort of wrongdoing? Will any of the elders step up and do what's right?

I don't think that everyone that wants GGWO disbanded is vindictive. I think some people believe that there's no way that Carl Stevens or any of the elders will ever repent. They (Carl and Co.) have too much pride and too much invested in maintaining the status quo to ever repent, or at least that's the feeling of many. If Carl and Co. don't repent, then how will the church get healthy?

Sure, it could happen, but it's about as likely as me becoming a fundamentalist, Jim. I suppose that under all that venom lurks the heart of the eternal optimist.

Jim, I thought I was the master of hyperbole, but this takes the cake. Carl Stevens or even GGWO, is NOT Jesus Christ. It ain't the same choice. I know, I know, the church is supposed to be the Body of Christ (even a heretic like me knows that), but come on, how long is Carl going to be allowed to hide behind this? You are starting to sound like the anti-gun lobby. ("If you don't get rid of guns, you are killing CHILDREN! Why do you want children to die?") It's the same thing. It seems like you're saying that if GGWO is disbanded, then it's like crucifying Christ. I don't buy it.

Even you have stated that GGWO is unhealthy. If no one in charge is going to "roger up" and admit their wrongdoing, it's never going to get fixed, if fixing is even possible. I actually thought that Dave Drago's ideas for reform of GGWO sound good. Now how are you going to get them implemented?

And I still don't see why you and some others have this sentimental attachment to GGWO. Aren't you at another church? Aren't you satified that you and the other people at your church are getting your spirit fed? Haven't you listed many alternative church's that have healthy doctrine? Why can't the congregation of GGWO go elsewhere? If GGWO ceased to exist, what will the people be missing that they can't get at another church?

My feeling is and always has been that GGWO is mostly (not always, but mostly) about Carl. In spite of what you think of my beliefs, I HAVE at least gone to several church's that you would find acceptable, I think. I have NEVER (and I realize that this is not statistically valid, but work with me here) seen a church that talks about itself or its leader FROM THE PULPIT during WORSHIP SERVICES than GGWO! I have watched probably 20 services on the net and listened to about 10 tapes of services and the constant theme is Carl talking about me, me, me (Carl) or "this ministry" and how great it is. Maybe things were different "back in the day", but that's what it seems like now.

I'll go on record that I don't want Carl crucified. But I think, at a minimum, the ideas that Dave Drago outlined MUST be implemented ASAP. There are a lot of people on this board that would love to see these things happen, but they are realistic enough, based on past, UNREPENTED conduct to expect no changes other than tear it down and start over.

Boss Martian

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"{ There are many here who have left GGWO and would have left any other evangelical church for the same reason—they were rebellious against God, not just the church government. They wanted their sin more than they wanted Christ. They accepted the agenda of the ungodly rather than Scripture."

Get real, Jim. These sound like the same kind of scare tactics the elders at GGWO have used for years.

The truth is that many of the dissisents are ex members who did not take the road to recovery that you did, many are still damaged, many are following God. Just because they aren't addicted to the categorical doctrine technique does not make them "not of God".

You have stated more than once here and to me privately that you are not here to help the wounded. We know you aren't jim. But people who are dissidents and have tried hard fro years to help others leave thae dangerous situation at GGWO are as godly as you seem to think you are.

This is another scare tactic and I seriously thought this beneath you. People need to abandon this sinking ship asap. They need to get themselves to healthy churches as you say you did.

The complaint against GGWO has been stated here repeatedly. The false doctrines are not the only problem here. Carl is unhealthy, the situation is becoming worse and worse, the elders have made and by the looks of thing will not make a proper decision as what to do...my heart goes out to Guy Duff who was demoted simply for attending Paul's church? Did you not hear the reports of the Sunday message?

What kind of mischief are you up to? Keep the people IN while others are trying to get them out and into healthy places to worship? What is your stake in this?

Many dissidents have gon on to other churches and are doing well. Some chose other paths. But that in no way means that those who have chosen other paths do not still care about those still trapped at GGWO and want them to be free. I myself have stated any number of times that I ma no longer a fundementalist...but it was a choice I was free to make after I got the garbage from GGWO out of my system...and I don't have any problem with people who wish to be fundamentalists, but they have a right to make that choice for themselves, not be manipulated by the scare tactics you have employed here. It isn't necessary to say. For I know of now one, other than you now perhaps who has counseled anyone to not find a healthy church when they finally get free of GGWO.

Most everyone I know who has left has gone to Calvary Chapel or some other local church where they will be free to make their own choices. And I say good for them. At least they will not now bemanipulated with fear tactics and subliminal messages about how to worship their pastor instead of God.

Really Jim...I am rather disappointed that you have said this. Don't you want people to get out and go to healthy churches?

If you really think this place can be reforemed, fine. In the meantime while everyone waits, let them be fed at other churches. If they see that the place has reformed, they'll be back.


Barabbas indeed....good grief.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Jim, I was so angry by your post that I needed to delete my reply. The calmer me is "disappointed" by your inference the dissidents desire to crucify Carl. Goal number one was reform. Naivette for goal number one was shot to hell and back by the behavior of Carl and the current elders in dealing with the issue of truth and reform. These men are wicked leaders, self-serving and ruthless. Carl's own family members call his group "rotten to the core." I remember how naive I was when I first heard that phrase, a little harsh I thought, Ha! Nine months later this is exactly what we have before us. Tell me how does one reform something that is "rotten to the core?"

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I've been angered a few times over the last week of posts. Seems the ones who started out calling for repentence have turned on one another to bite and devour each other all for the sake of their own interpretation of the word of God! Please! What do you think those at GGWO are thinking about your carping and sniping? I imagine they are laughing and mocking all of us here on FACTNet. And we wonder why they ignore us.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Carl has a new message to his followers about those Barbarians on FACTNet that are calling for his crucifiction, thus making him more like Jesus then ever before!!! This kind of bickering will just cause those that really need to hear the truth about GGWO to be even more cemented into the horrible mess we know as GGWO. Really, think of those that we've been trying to get out or to rise up and demand change. You think anyone is going to see any credibility in this kind of low life arguing?

30+ years of sin. 30+ years of unrepentant living. 30+ years of filling peoples heads and lives with lies. Isn't it time to speak clearly and lovingly to one another?

Jim, you may not care at all about those that may have been hurt by such a ministry, but many of us do care. Many of us have loved ones we want OUT or at least courageous enough to stand up for the truth. How are they to do it when the most vocal ones here are behaving like this?

No wonder the leader and leaders are still in their positions and still telling lies and still hurting people. Why not?

I'm disappointed in the behavior here. I've wanted so much to see people set free from the bondage of this ministry. I don't care what you call it. It is an unhealthy ungodly place for a christian to be and to rear children.

We should think more about setting a good example and showing those that read here that we are true christians that we know how to live.

I am ashamed of what has been posted recently.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Lee,
FactNet has been filled with arguing and nastiness since the beginning. It is not clear to me exactly which posts you are referring to.

[Lady Ann (209.6.151.215)]

. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.


III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.


IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


V. Honour thy father and thy mother.

VI. Thou shalt not kill.

VII. Thou shalt not commit adultery.


VIII. Thou shalt not steal.


IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


X. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.


How many of these 10 laws has this "church" broken? None of them? All of them?
How do you go on when you have as leaders, not the congregation the leaders, go on after they have broken almost every commandment? Please be serious.
How do these men go in front of the BODY OF CHRIST
without repentence, without acknowledgment, without remorse and expect them to be listened to by people who are struggling and expected to express to them their sins?
I do not want Carl Stevens or anyone else to be crucified. God does not want anyone to be lost to Him. But all of us have to repent and return to God before we can move on.
And for all of this predestination talk, how do you know that this isn't predestination happening right now?

Andrea

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

The way you know that this isn't predestination happening now, Andrea, is to realize that Jim F. has always spread a line of bull**** all over factnet, he is so stinking self absorbed he doesn't give a damn about anybody getting healed on here. All that he wants to do is propogate his non Christ like views of christianity.

I strongly agree with what Lee and Roberta wrote here today. And, from now on, I think we should mark jim as a troll and skip over his hateful posts. He would argue with himself if he was schizophrenic. No edifying things happen when he posts and frankly I'm one person who is sick to death of it. Jim we will love you as a brother but you, sir, are a troll and have lost the respect of many here on factnet that used to support you.

You attack anyone who even remotely disagrees with what you post and you are relentless. All for the glory of Jim you are no different than Neil Carrick in persisting in getting your point across. The depth of the deception you have in biblical thinking and teaching is scary!!

Nobody here wants Carl crucified. I really think you've taken a step off the deep end!!!

lol, NOW you can do your usual thing, trash my post and dare to debate with me...you big baby!!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Dave Drago...are you in agreement with this post from JF? Is this how you believe? Are you on board with this perspective?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

To compare the dissidents on this board to the crowd calling for the crucifixion of Christ is insulting.

To compare the call for accountability of Carl and his organization to the persecution of Our Lord is truly obscene.

I am sickened by your need to be provocative. You have discredited yourself today.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Oh my gosh Jim I can't even believe you posted such trash. Are you really that self absorbed now that you don't get your way on factnet anymore?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

To 205, 9:13 pm,
For someone with such strong views, it is surprising that you post anonymously. At least Jim and Neil were willing to sign their posts. If you are going to encourage others to mark someone as a troll, and if you presume to speak for others ("lost the respect of many here"), then we should all at least know who you are.
I share your IP number but definitely not your views.

[Nancy C (151.196.28.71)]

I understand the fact that we ought to forgive and give the same mercy to Carl Stevens as we receive from God.

But Jim I have to agree with the others that to say people are out to crucify him is incorrect to say the least.

There must be repentence, a change of mind before God and humility before all those who ever sat under him.

There is and has been much spiritual abuse, children have been hurt, families broken up, etc.

I also agree with Lee that we are defeating our purpose here when we bicker among ourselves. New people are coming to Factnet all the time and if they see these sorts of posts they will ignore the reality of the situation in GG.

Prayer is so key and being led by the Holy Spirit. There are still so many confused and new people added every week.

God bless you all.

[Anonymous (67.249.230.194)]

To JF,

How dare you compare the crucifixion of Jesus Christ with the RIGHTEOUS criticism of Carl Stevens, the LIAR, ADULTERER, TWISTER OF SCRIPTURE, and ABUSER OF LIVES? I think that it borders on blaspheming our Lord.

You have really swallowed the GGWO doctrine. That's the whole problem with GGWO. The decieved have treated Carl like he's some second string deity and enabled him to continue his abuse.

I have lost any respect I had for you.

Go ahead and tell all of us how we aren't Christians. It seems to be your favorite way of dealing with those who disagree with you these days.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

I believe that if the elders seriously try to take authority over Carl, that the ministry will split into fragments. I don't expect him to truly submit to them. I'm not God, and He can do anything; but it will greatly surprize me if things there get fixed without either Carl's true repentance or his death. Maybe a decent fragment or fragments could emerge from the general wreckage. In the meantime, I'm interested in individuals getting what help they need and can accept; and I don't see anything wrong with secular psychologists being part of their help, but they need Body help as well. Do remember Gamaliel's words as you ponder these things. If God intends to take it down, He will.

And please try to be nice to one another as you beat each other up. Love, Bob

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Bob

Tell me...you're not outraged, insulted and offended by Jim's post?

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

I think it's inappropriately expressed. But a lot of over the top stuff flies around here. For myself, I find denominations, churches, organizations, and systems of theology to be places that people's real individuality seems to get buried and stifled. I hate artificial groups. I don't want a whole group of people to all think the same way about everything. I know Paul wrote stuff that sounds like that's a goal; but I don't think that's what he meant. I don't want to be thought of as a liberal or a conservative. Politically, I'm an independent. The whole system is rotten to the core, and it's all divided up 'doctrinally' so that if you're not in one camp or the other you can't effect any real change; and if you're in one of the camps, you still can't. All you can do is push the *&amp;^ng party line. I don't want party lines. I want real people. I want the real God. Many people in 'the Christian community' are vehemently against Catholics. That outrages me. Many Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But I don't love Catholicism as a category of believers, I love people. I love those still in GG and those who've left it. I want them all to be spiritually free, whatever it takes. But I consider it in God's hands. I am not appointed to take it down. But I am given things to say, and I'm not going to stop saying them. I guess I'm trying to avoid being in a camp over this. I want God's will, even if it's not what I think it should be. It seems like change will not come without drastic reasons for it. I wouldn't be opposed to everyone leaving.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

RJ,
You are outraged, insulted and offended by just about everything.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Well, at least someone is! Outrage is a good motivator to fight injust and ruthless behavior.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

The RJ-bashing smokescreen isn't going to camouflage this one. Nice try, though.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Still haven't heard from Dave Drago. I do hope he plans to comment....

[MuskyRose (64.12.117.20)]

"Do you think that just because someone is a dissident that they have a justifiable complaint?..."

Yes Jim I do, and so do a host of others out there who are reading this and who are deeply offended by your post. All the Dissidents out there who have left TBS and GGWO in the past 30 to 35 years up to the present have a justifiable complaint. Just as YOU did. What was YOUR complaint? What caused YOU to leave? Remember Jim you too are a dissident. The words you so nochalantly throw out there to accuse, slander, and wound your bretheren also apply to you.


"There are many here who have left GGWO and would have left any other evangelical church for the same reason—they were rebellious against God, not just the church government. They wanted their sin more than they wanted Christ..."

Jim, You don't know that. That is an assumtion you made, and a very cruel one. By that statement alone you have negated the pain and suffering of thousands of people who have truely been hurt by carl and his minions. How can you EVEN think something such as that none-the-less write it? Where has your compassion gone? Where has your sensitivity towards others who are in pain gone? What has happened to you? Are you so deceived that you cannot see your words are destroying, yes destroying, some who may already be close to the edge?

Those who left tbs or ggwo did so with much prayer and great agony to their spirit. They are in pain and are devastated. It isn't easy. You should know that. You left. Was it easy for you?

Jim, are you transferring the feelings you had onto others? Was that how it was for you? Were you rebellious against God? Did you want your sin more than Christ? Is that why you are so gunho on the exactness of the scriptures? Why your dogmatism and immovability and refusal to allow grace, mercy and love into the mixture is unthinkable?

Jim, if that is the case then you can't say everyone is like that for you are transferring your emotions and feeling onto the dissadents and that is just not right. You, my friend seriously need to rethink what you have written and what you have done for you have deeply offended MANY, MANY people on this board. Many good people who love God and do the best they can in their own personal walk with Him.

We all have our own struggles, and failures, We all have our own weaknesses. But the one thing we all have in common is God's love. Plain and simple, yes. But you know what Jim, sometimes, Gods love (and all that it includes) just has to be enough and all the other stuff is not important. Especially when it comes to broken and wounded hearts. Which is what we are dealing with here?

I am sorry you can't seem to see this and it makes me wonder what is you are running away from with all your bravado and hurtful lashing out.

One final question Jim, Are you afraid you chose Barabas?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Muskeyrose as usual asks some excellent questions of you, Jim. I hope you will have the guts to answer her and the rest of us.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

I think I understand the principle Jim was trying to bring out in his post. Obviously he does not see Pastor Carl Stevens on an equal level with Christ, as many have taken it. I took it to mean that GGWO is still part of the body of Christ, they are brethren, and in God's patience can still repent. But many want to see GG destroyed, and will settle for anything in its place, even corrupt substitutes such as Barabbas was.

Also, it is true that there ARE those who left GG because of rebellion against God and would have left another church as well. That is plain to see because they have not joined another healthy church. Not only have they left GG but they left their convictions and beliefs in scripture, and now go along with whatever feels right to them. This is not just an assumption that Jim made---this is obvious in what many have posted on FactNet. I don't think he was saying that all who have left are like that, or that no one has been legitimately abused or hurt. But not everyone who leaves and posts here has pure motives, and some are just out to see GG destroyed no matter what. And there could still be hope in GG because it IS part of the body of Christ.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Predictable.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Well, at least you're still predictable.

This is the worst tripe I have heard since any of us began posting here. Nic, I know you in your self righteous piety will never understand this, but some people were actually devastated, destroyed and hurt by this rotten organization. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they aren't there. I personally have a friend who mioved to Baltimore after having been in Lenox and ended up in a psych ward becuase no one would help her. She eventually rejected God in part BECAUSE OF THE DISGUSTING TREATMENT SHE RECEIVED AT GGWO. She begged them for help and they're advice??? "Go bake cookies, come sit beside pastah at lunch" They tried to get her to use her writing talents to lie to the Baltimore Sun...to actually write bold lies about GGWO...she finally snapped, and they abandoned her. Shameful, disgusting excuses for men of God.

My husband and I were LOOKING FOR GOD when we left GGWO, because we couldn't find him in the organization. The treatment my husband received from the idiots at GGWO has made him lose faith in self appointed MEN OF GOD, not God himself. And I know you will always believe the worst of me, cuz you're so much more Christian than the rest of us, like Jum.

This is utter nonsense. We have waited, watched prayed for over 15 years for things to improve, for these self appointed asses to repent, get right and change the corrupted system. Big clue...IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. Short of Christ's return, no one with a brain can actually see any change ....except the changes for the worse.

Jim has gone too far this time. The division he seeks to make is idiotic, uncalled for and just plain wrong. We have people we love there, constantly being lied to, hurt, and damaged...we want them out. I have never made a secret of the fact I think this place is beyond restoration, but to intimate that those of us who feel that way want sin more than we want God? Just who the hell do you two think you are? How dare you say such things to people who are afraid of never seeing their loved ones again. How dare you actually agree with Jim's disgusting diatribe.

If I didn't already think there was something drastically wrong with Jim, you and others who could possibly write such accusations, I certainly think so now.

I tell you what...why don't you and Jim and Dave or anyone else here who is so much more spiritually correct and self righteous march yourselves right into Carl's office and get him to repent? I know why you don't. It's not "we are waiting for God's timing"...that is crap...what it really boils down to is none of you have the actual courage it'll take to do it. You make me sick. You'll come here and pontificate, put anyone who doen't line upp with your anally retentive concept of God, but when the rubber meets the road, you're all cowards.

I dare you...go to Baltimore. If you really believe this load of crap Jim posted here, I dare you. Go to Carl and tell him FACE TO FACE.

I did it just once. And the man is a lunatic. After the court case I encountered them getting out of a car by Carl's apartment on campus I told him and Dan Lewis that I knew they lied. I knew because I knew one of the principle players had lied to me, Kathy Hill who I worked for off and on. Carl went ballistic. He made me sick, and Dan Lewis was the henchman who threatened me to keep my mouth shut. It wasn't the first time he had threatened me, but it was the last. I never gave the bastard another chance...I never went to Baltimore thank God.

I dare you...go. Step up Nic. What's the matter? Have a lot to say but not the courage of your convictions? You, Jim Dave and any other fool who actually believes this evil group of men, and yes, I said evil, will hurt you any way they can if you confront them. Do it biblically, I dare you...see what happenes THEN come back and tell the truth. They will tell you pretty lies, string you along like they are Dave Drago, then they will find a way to destroy you if they want to...I have seen them do it, and so have a great number of others.

All talk and no action...you all are just accusers of the brethern. With this you have caused many people to be wounded all over again. How hateful you are. But you don't care at all about the people you hurt, yeah, we know Nic...they just need to "get over it" as you have so sweetly said so many times.

This is outrageous and anyone who ascribes to this crock of sh*t is outrageous as well. Evidently that inclued you.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta,
You need to RELAX, CALM DOWN...isn't that what you are always telling others to do?
All I said was that I can understand the principle Jim was bringing out in his post. So many have overreacted to it and focused on certain points, without seeing the overall picture of what he was saying. And you have made it the crisis of the week, just like your debate with Dave Drago last week, and the slavery thing weeks ago.
Also, you are twisting things again. No one said that all who leave GG want sin more than God.
Some do, as do some who leave every church. Not everyone who is an enemy of GG is a friend of God. That's all that was said.
I agree with your opinion of Pastor Carl Stevens. But GG is still part of God's church and His bride, and God can heal it. That is basically what was being said.

[Loretta J. Willits (152.163.101.12)]

Oh, RJ, (9-28, 6:01 p.m.), how sanctimonious you sound with your lecturing. Yes, it is easy to see many who post on here really need help, so how is it helping them by encouraging them to post their vitriolic vomit here instead of going to some perfect church out there and keeping involved with it doing the Lord's work?

Almost 30,000 messages have been posted here, most of them against GGWO, and what has it accomplished? The crowds still come, even to the evening services; the missions overseas still go on; visiting missionaries still come "home" for visits; the schools still are teaching students; the choirs and groups still perform; the parking lot is still full of cars at every service.

As St. Paul said, "Think on the good things!" Obsessing over the complaints I see posted here is a sickness. All ought to keep their Bibles handy and whenever these thoughts bother them, they should open their Bibles and read "good things"! You can't think of two things at one time, so why not think something good? Why do you think God gave us the Bible if it wasn't for helping people such as these?

If a person has a leg problem would a doctor recommend they run on it? Not hardly (says this voice of experience!). No, he would recommend a course of healing methods. So the vitriolic vomiters on this board ought to seek a healing process in some perfect church out there. If not, at least read the Bible and pray to God to get over this obsession with GGWO.

NOTE: Jesus did not agree with the leaders of the Temple in His day, but nowhere does the Bible say He ranted and raved to the people to stop going to the Temple! Furthermore, He attended there regularly and, as we are told, would read from Scripture---in other words, He participated!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Nic...I know what Jim is saying, and it isn't just the "basic principle" that you so reservedly think it is. Jim has become everybit as much the manipulator that Carl is...or rather I should say, that Jim has reverted back to the manipulator he was taught to be so long ago. The "principle" may be ever so delicate and non-venomous, but he knew it would hurt people. This is his way, just like Carl. It is difficult to remain calm when I know the people he hurts with his vindictive posts, that of late have been worse than ever.

It may not be about the wunded for some of you. But it is for some of us...and I am angry that you (collectively) cannot think of them. Every church has those that leave because they don't want God...but that is not generally the case with GGWO. You had be a rather intense believer to make it in Lenox...the daily college schedule was grueling and much was expected...the ratio of those that stuck it out to those who wandered away was markedly higher than one might think. We were intense about wanting to serve God...and we submitted to the exhausting life on campus. Then to find out it was all for nothing...it really destroyed people.

I was one of those who was intense. I drew excellent grades, worked on staff did all the outreach etc, with a chronic illness. Just like so many others did. When I discovered the evil running rampant behind the scenes...from sexual abuses, financial abuses, lies etc...it nearly did me in. My faith and almost everything was shaken and badly.

I am one who seriously would like to see the doors close on this organization...I do not apologise for that, nor do I think those of us who think so should be referred to as Jim so slyly has done. It is an insult and I think he has gone too far.

I would calm down Nic if I could stop thinking about the fact how much of an insult his post is to so many great people who want to see people saved from the corruption. And also I think of how many who are leaving or about who may ear of this and be wounded all over again.

"And you have made it the crisis of the week" Demean me if it pleases you, but I made no crisis of this. Read the other posts here...a good number are from people who seldom if ever agree with me...Sorry Nic... It won't work this time.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Nic,

Were you a spin doctor for the Clinton administration? Because you have done a wonderful job of putting a spin on Jim's load of crap. I have read and re-read Jim's post. He is equating the critique and call for disbanding Carl's cult with crucifying Christ. It's not just me that sees what he wrote.

Do you have children? If so, how happy are they to go to the doctor, especially after getting a shot on a previous visit? If they had the choice, they surely wouldn't go back to the doctor, even though they might need medical attention.

The same exists at GGWO. People have had a TERRIBLE experience. Their terrible experience, unlike a shot, had no redeeming value. They were abused. Perhaps GGWO has been their only experience with Christianity. If this experience was bad, why do you think they would immediately run to another church?

I have a good friend from my hometown who was raped by her date. Violently. It has taken her over ten years of hard work to get to the point where she can feel safe being touched by a man other than her father and brother. When I saw her soon after her experience and innocently tried to give her a hug like any other time I had seen her, she recoiled and then burst into tears. To follow your logic, I should have rebuked her for lumping me in with the bastard that raped her. And then rebuked her for not being in a relationship.

You and Jim and possibly Dave are so full of yourselves. You are the uber Christians, superior to all. You have all the answers. I have only one answer: END GGWO. NOW.

Boss Martian
Tastes just like chicken

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

20 Ways NOT to Get Sucked (BACK) Into A Cult

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=81

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Dave....hello? Do you ever plan to answer the number of people who have asked you to comment on this thread?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

who cares what dave thinks.. what are his thoughts? the end all and be all of anyone elses opinion on here?

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

I would like someone, anyone, to tell me of one example of church/cult within the last 50 years in the US that has been destroyed by something other than Federal Government or all the members offing themselves.

[rj (151.203.157.69)]

64...just curious is all....k?

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Quite a stir!

I remain firm in my belief that Carl Stevens is a charlatan who began The Bible Speaks to intentionally take advantage of people using Jesus precious message of salvation. I agree with the many before me who have expressed how ridiculous it is to compare Carl Stevens with Jesus' being sent off to be crucified.

I thought this post from the Cult or Abusive Church thread by Anonymous (152.163.101.12)
Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:24 am
was quite insightful concerning that she discovered much of her reason for going to GGWO was about her and not God. An ego trip in the name of Jesus. How I identified. I do not identify with those who say God led them into TBS/GGWO. I feel that something in my ego wanted gratification rather than truly walking with God. The 'love bombing' also referred to in that post is a documented brainwashing technique. The love bombing fed my ego. How many of us have said when we left there that we will never find such friendship. All these folks looking at you with a twinkle in their eye telling you how wonderful you are for absolutely no reason. It is unreal!! Literally.

This doctrinal banter takes the cake, Jim. I will say thanks to Factnet and my opportunity to dump all my pent up cult feelings, my anger is gone. I just peruse through these threads when I have some time and read without any emotional upheavals. I am just thrilled to know that many people have been able to leave the cult called GGWO because of information made available on Factnet.

[Anonymous (80.221.65.70)]

Listen to pastor Prokop speak about the King Complex:
http://serving.joyfully.at/display/index.jsp

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

just a reminder about factnet taken from their home page..............

Independent individuals, organizations, or authors contributing documents to F.A.C.T.Net's research libraries may be exercising their constitutional rights of petition, free speech, participation in government, or freedom of religion in researching, evaluating and freely discussing any matter. These discussions or statements may be the constitutionally protected opinions, allegations, satire, fiction, or religious beliefs or religious opinions of these independent individuals, organizations, or authors and, as such, MAY OR MAY NOT BE FACTUAL

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Anonymous 68.82.183.97

I listend twice. Too bad GGWO can't hear its own messages.

I have two reponses:

1. When the Pastor repeated the word security about 30 times and he kept saying se-cur-i-ty with the same paused affected speech that Schaller uses the anointing was so amazing I had to go 'toss my cookies'.
2. CARLELULUIA!!

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Luke 6:22 (ESV)
"Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!

John 15:18 (ESV)
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.

My, my, bless your little hearts. Did I compare Carl Stevens with Jesus? What is it that you all think the word “CHRISTIAN” does to each of us?

What I was saying was that there are a lot of people on this board who are motivated not just by their hurt but by hate. There are a lot of folks who want to mock, scoff and just be scornful towards a BROTHER in Christ—which is what Carl Stevens is. There are loads of folks who rejoice in iniquity—their own and Carl’s and Paul’s. These folks are not behaving as Christians and Christians should not be joining with them, feeding them by telling them it’s “ok to vent because you’re hurt” or making unholy alliances with them.

Church discipline is just that—discipline which takes place INSIDE the Church and is conducted by the CHURCH—not by people who are willing to strain at the gnats of Carl Stevens behavior and then swallow the camels of the gay agenda (that’s Barrabas—a murderer of the soul) or liberal theology (that’s Barrabas a thief and murderer) or hate (that’s Barrabas again rebellious against God) or those who can’t trust the Scriptures or be accountable themselves—that’s hypocrisy and another Barrabas—telling someone else they are a “dangerous cult” who “lead people astray with false teaching” when they are themselves blinded to the truth of the Gospel in Scripture and totally unaccountable themselves. Many of you folks will swallow almost any doctrinal crap on the market and get on here and whine, cry, howl, mock and scoff at Carl Stevens—the new Great Satan.

Psalm 1:1-2 (ESV)
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
[2] but his delight is in the law of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.

How do you not exemplify those who “walk in the counsel of the wicked?” You do, because you listen to the wicked and make alliances with them or excuse their behavior—at the very least you do not even challenge the unbiblical crap that goes on here on FALSENET, TRASHNET or FICTIONET as it could also be known. You listen to the wicked and you give them credibility.

You stand in the way of sinners because you join forces with them against God’s people, you hope for failure, you offer no patience, you do not hope for the best, you are resentful and are rejoicing in the wrongdoing of others.

You sit in the seat of the scoffers by rejecting the Scriptures and you mock God’s church, the bride of Christ wishing on it only destruction and more heartbreak. I have even heard that some have been accused of “emphasizing the Bible too much.” How can anyone do that? Are we meditating on it day and night? I have never seen a place so exemplary of biblical ignorance and famine as this board. I am continually amazed that there are people posting here who have spent more than twenty years in a ministry once called “The Bible Speaks” who are clueless when it comes to Scripture.

Now let me see if I can really get up your nose.

2 Tim. 3:2-7 (ESV)
For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, [3] heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, [4] treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [5] having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. [6] For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, [7] always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

It seems this camp is taking over factnet. Particularly the "weak-women-led-astray-by-various-passions-burdened-with-sins" part ALWAYS LEARNING ANDS NEVER ABLE TO ARRIVE AT A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. Is it any wonder Paul told the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 14:35 (ESV)
If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

And again women need to be submitted to their husbands and learn from them:
Titus 2:5 (ESV)
to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

The word of God is more reviled on this board because of women who are not taught well by either pastors or husbands than in any place I know of.

I think that if some of the husbands of wives who post on here had either brains or testicles they would begin lovingly to teach and study the Scriptures with their wives and gently take an axe to their computer keyboards—so they will not continually get on here in an uncontrolled manner and cause the word of God to be reviled again and again.

Am I a misogynist now? I don’t think so. I am merely pointing out the obvious yet again—that many (<FONT COLOR="ff0000">NOT ALL</FONT>) of the women posting on factnet are either not accountable to either husband or pastor and it shows through very clearly in what they write. And the <U>men—husbands and pastors</U>, <FONT COLOR="ff0000">WIMPS AND GIRLIE MEN THAT THEY ARE</FONT>--are the main ones to blame because they don’t apparently love their wives enough to instruct them, they have abandoned their God-given responsibility. I can hear the howling beginning…

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

blah blah blah

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

*LOL*

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

We'll save our howling for the end of the month, thank you. And I just want you to know that the town of Lee has officially decided to 'celebrate' Halloween on the 31st each year. The town government was geting too many complaints from various residents no matter which day they had it on. Have you started in on Harry Potter yet, Jim?

[Anonymous (200.76.64.3)]

Hey, You're not supposed to say the truth on Trashnet.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Wasn't Wimpy Popeye's friend, as in "I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"? Was he one of those people who didn't bow deeply enough to 'delegated authority'? Did he have beer with his hamburghers? (and, yes; I stuck the 'h' in the burger word on porpoise.)

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Nye-nye. See ewe in mawnin...

[Anonymous (67.243.133.200)]

Now THAT'S more like it!

Glad to see that Jim Faucett is tan, rested, and wearing his fiberglass and hair underwear. Great googly moogly, nobody can be that ****ed off and not be suffering with some SERIOUS chafing issues!

Predictable, Jim.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

With a view to righting old wrongs, it has been decreed by the powers that be that we should all begin wearing camel hair shirts. You may remove them temporarily when you shower or bathe. Camel hair underwear is also available for the more repentance-prone among you.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"Great googly moogly, nobody can be that ****ed off and not be suffering with some SERIOUS chafing issues!"


*LOL*

[rj (151.203.157.69)]

What is Fundamentalism?
Rutgers ^ | 8/8/02 | unknown


Posted on 08/08/2002 1:04:36 PM PDT by tpaine


WHAT IS FUNDAMENTALISM?

Modern day fundamentalism is an extreme reaction to the complexity and immorality of today's world. The knowledge and technology explosion has left many people confused and afraid. Their understandable longing for security leads some to look for a way to cut through the complexities of modern life and reestablish fundamental truths.
Fundamentalists try to satisfy their "lust for certitude" by oversimplifying things, by making a passionate commitment to a part, and sometimes to a distortion, of the truth.

FUNDAMENTALISTS AND POLITICS

Fundamentalism arises from a person's general approach to life. Not all fundamentalists are Christians or even religious. A fundamentalist's unyielding adherence to rigid doctrinal and ideological positions may find expression in his or her social and political, as well as religious, attitudes.

Violent fundamentalists are those who believe that the "rightness" of their cause justifies even the most heinous of crimes. They are right, and others have no rights. Whether "religious" and secular, down through the ages violent fundamentalists have been responsible for terrible atrocities--crusaders slaughtering Muslims, inquisitors torturing heretics, Nazis gassing Jews, communists annihilating counterrevolutionaries, capitalists tyrannizing the poor.

[Lady Ann (151.203.33.189)]

I don't understand what is so hard to understand when the Bible is clear.
JF uses scripture to back up what he has to say.
Others just speak from their own feelings.

I really would like to understand exactly where you decide the Bible is right and where it is wrong. In other words, what you think is ok for the current times and what is not. You say that times have changed, God has not. He knew the world would change. Hence>>> What was wrong or bad will be considered right.
Taking in the fact that the Lord knew that times would change, that the world would change, he did not adjust His words to change with the times.
What he said is what He said.
Please, RJ and others explain to me, I really don't understand where you think that the Bible should be "adjusted" to fit these new times.
I really am asking in earnest.
I live with my mom's cousin who attented a GG church. I also traveled a lot and was in Baltimore often. I went to GGWO quite a few times, and have gone to church with my "Auntie".
I didn't like GG anywhere, but I Love God, and I really would like to know why you beleive the Bible is not to be beleived or lived by in its entirety.

Andrea

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Andrea,
There is no explanation because the bible should NOT be adjusted. Don't go by what RJ says or what I say, go by what God says in His Word. It says times change but God changes not, His Word is forever settled in heaven. People want to not believe parts of the bible that make them uncomfortable. You nailed it exactly when you said that JF backs his posts up with scripture, but many others just speak from their feelings. You are one of the few people on here with real discernment.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Andrea,

There are many people who love the Bible, read the Bible, can exegete the Bible and are saved, who are not "literalists" when it comes to interpreting the Bible. This is not new. This has been the case for centuries. Fundamentalists generally are literalists. This means they take every single word literally, using present context sparingly. It is their choice and it illuminated Christ for them. Others find Christ illuminated in the scripture with a less literalist interpretation. The only problem I have with literalists is that they expect everyone MUST believe as they do to be good Christians, or to be Christians at all in some cases.

I do not believe this way. Many of the Old and New Testament practices the Bible speaks of were common to the times, and not necessarily common to today. For example, and I know literalists do not believe this way, but in 2004 women are educated equally with men, sometimes more educated than men, therefore are not necessarily in need of being led spiritually by men in a marriage, and need not be silent in churches. I do not believe God is thrilled with patriarchal systems in homes, especially as sometimes this leads to problems. If a husband and wife choose to believe and live their relationship that way, I am not against it. But I do not believe every couple must behave that way. I know many GG pastors who do not adhere to the "covering" doctrines spoken of by Paul in the Bible. Are they in error? No. Their family relationship works and is healthy, then it is okay with God. Marriage is a sacred covenant between people and God respects that.

I personally see nothing strange about women being pastors. There are thousands of protestant congregations in America led by women. This is anathema to literalists because Paul tells one church where the women were uneducated and contentious that the women should remain silent in the church. Literalists believe that this means women are not allowed to preach. Non-literalists believe it means that the women in the church Paul addressed shouldn't speak out and be disruptive in church.

The point is, that I am all for people living what they believe. If literalists wish to live by the Bible literally, go for it. What I don't understand is their accusations that others who are believing the Bible differently are somehow evil, unsaved or apostate. This just isn't true.

It is not a problem until the literalists decide that they are the only holders of the truth about God. Many denominations believe differently than others, they always have. Live and let live seems to be also anathema to some who are literalists. I have many friends who are literalist believers and we simply have agreed to disagree on some subjects, but remain friends and Christians together. I do not seek to change them nor do they seek to change me. We just care for each other as Christians should do. What ever beliefs they hold are between them and God, and they respect mine as between God and me.

Jim and Nic, for example (there are others, I use the names here as Nic has mentioned me as have you)are literalists and believe strongly. They are articulate and good Christians. What I object to is that they are often mean and unkind to those who do not believe as they do. They are convinced they are right, which they have the right to think...but the tenor of their cruelty to some others does nothing but engender strife and division. Many have turned away from the literalist view because of some of the post Jim has made here. I think it is unfortunate. People should be led by God to believe what they believe and should be respected. I see no reason for this contentiousness, they obviously do. I have repented for my anger at this and have decided not to fight with them over it, but to pray their voices do not turn any away that are seeking help from people here. It has happened I know for fact and I have asked God's forgiveness if I was in any way a party to the continued rancor...and I was.

You have every right to believe the Bible the way God leads you to, and so do others. That is my view and where I stand. But belief does not give anyone the right to be cruel, disparaging nasty and mean to others. I don't believe that what God has in mind for His people.

The Samaratin Jesus spoke of was not a Jew, not loved and was hated by the Jews, but because he cared for the man on the road, took him to an inn, bought his remedy and left quietly, is remembered...he is spoken of well, and never once believed the Bible literally, nor did the Prodigal Son etc.

I believe God is bigger than the differences we all have and there is room in the Kingdom for all of us no matter how we choose to worship or believe the Bible.

And quoting scripture is an amazing thing. After all these years out of Bible school I can still exegete the Greek, read a bit of Hebrew and quote whole chapters...but it means very little without the Holy Spirit. When someone talks about this subject and uses the word "feelings", please don't be so quick to judge or discount it...they may be speaking of the leading of the Holy Spirit in their life.

The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life. This means something. Many can quote the chapter and verse for hours and still not be hearing the Spirit. Both are beautiful, both are necessary and both are given to the believer by God.

After a lot of study, and yes, I used to be a literalist, I am learning to hear His voice/word through the Spirit, as this was not stressed in my previous years of study at GGWO.

I am sure you will hear many other voices that will drown mine out. I do hope you will just remember that there are people whom God loves that do not view the Bible the same way as fundamnetalists do.

I wish you all the best, great joy in your study and a revelatory journey as you walk with Him. If you are seeking Him, I know you will.

Blessings
RJ

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Very well said Roberta. Thank you. We have so many walls up after years of teaching that there are no gray areas for believers. Just about every orthodox teaching had a twist on it to keep us following Carl. Even a little twist tainted how we viewed everything. It also brought us far from the heart of God, even for those us whose only desire was to serve Him. I don't advocate anyone leaving GG stray from the precious word, it needs to be read with more intensity than ever before. But also give ourselves a lot of grace to allow God to illuminate and remove the twists and the taints put there by Carl. It is the true testing of one's faith to allow the Holy Spirit to teach and not a man, especially one as flawed as Carl turned out to be. Testing of our faith means we have to listen. We have been conditioned to judge and REJECT anyone and anything we sense a whiff of something we were taught was very wrong. It is not a conditioning that came from God but a flawed man. If one judges and rejects with listening then one's faith is not tested. In that area you do not grow. I think we confuse our loyalty to the Bible with our loyalty to conditioned responses taught to us be a man who actually stole us away from God.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"I think we confuse our loyalty to the Bible with our loyalty to conditioned responses taught to us be a man who actually stole us away from God."

Very powerful statement. I hope everyone reads and ponders it.

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

"I think we confuse our loyalty to the Bible with our loyalty to conditioned responses taught to us be a man who actually stole us away from God."

That is ridiculous. There are believers, "fundamentalist" believers, who believe every Word of God, in many churches outside of GGWO. It has nothing to do with Pastor Stevens, and everything to do with what Jesus taught and what the bible teaches. Live by every word of God. "The letter killeth" had to do with people trying to live up to the Old Testament Law. The Spirit is in the Word, "For the words I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life", Jesus said.

"there is room in the Kingdom for all of us no matter how we choose to worship or believe the Bible."
Also ridiculous.
Jesus said you must worship in spirit and in TRUTH, and He said the Word is Truth. We don't choose how we worship, God chooses. And we don't choose how to believe the bible, God says to believe and live by every word.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Nic, you missed the whole point of my words. I did not take one iota away from the importance of the Word. I am not advocating putting the Word second in your life but putting it first. If you were part of GGWO then the effects of the twisted teaching still stand between you and the pure word of God. I say this in kindness and concern because it is so obvious to me that it is not just the word you are clinging to but the word taught to you by a flawed man. His words are STILL between you and THE WORD. Please just consider it.

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

"I say this in kindness and concern because it is so obvious to me that it is not just the word you are clinging to but the word taught to you by a flawed man. His words are STILL between you and THE WORD."

Please explain why this is so obvious to you, and what you are basing this on.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Stating that the way I worship is 'ridiculous' is unkind and disrespectful Nic. You could try at least to be civil I should think.

[Nic (152.163.101.12)]

What I said was that your statement was ridiculous, and then I explained why

[Bob Brinton (141.154.152.25)]

Jesus is called the Word in the Bible. He said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Holy Spirit is in us. He leads us into truth. He is given to us in place of the physical presence of Jesus. The Bible tells you these things. Your words, Nic, almost make it sound like the Spirit is just part of the Bible. That makes no spiritual sense to me. The Spirit is given to us to lead and guide and empower and equip us and He chooses what gifts we are to have, how we are to fit with other members of the Body. The Spirit Who is in you is the very same one who raised Christ from the dead. He is in continual communion with both the Father and the Son. Jesus is interceding for you right now. God is living. He is right now present with you. He attends every single detail of your way. You can't take your next breath without Him giving it to you. Today, if you will hear His voice... He still speaks. The Word is proceeding out of His mouth right now, going forth to bear His fruit in us. Just because Stevens used the teachings on the Spirit to manipulate us doesn't mean He is inactive in the world or in us today. Take back some of the ground you've given up.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Exactly Bob!

Nic,
You asked what I was basing my observations on. The Holy Spirit within me. The gift of discernment given to me by God. I have read post after post by you Nic. And I am greatly burdened everytime. You have such a love for God but what is obvious is that GGWO stole something from you and what is more obvious to me is that God wants you to get it back. It is the intimate exchange life. I just know this is going to ruffle your feathers and you will stop listening as soon as you read my words. And scriptures will start coming out of your mouth to confirm to you how well you know Him and there is no problem. But I am telling you that I know that I know that I know, you have been robbed of something very precious and God wants it returned to you. Nic, you started this journey of exiting GGWO and you need to complete it. Consider my words as words from a friend, a friend who cares about your soul. A friend that knows the book AND really listens to the Savior's voice and when pressed by the Holy Spirit for someone will not give it up. Because it is this "knowing" thing. Do you understand what I am talking about?

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

FYI, I am not a "literalist". I am a contextualist. I believe in interpreting the literature of the Scriptures as it was intended according to its genre. I interpret poetry as poetry, prophecy as prophecy, epistles as letters, history as history and apocalyptic as apocalyptic. Whatever the genre, the key to a correct hermeneutical understanding is this: How is Christ revealed in the text? While I may hold to the fundamentals, as do all evangelical Christians--the biblical text is most correctly approached from the view espoused by Dave Carson: historically and grammatically. To whom was the writing first addressed and what was its meaning for them? What is the context of the writing? What is its intent? And most importantly how do we see Jesus there? The passage in the New Testament supporting this final question is in Luke 24:44ff. Might I suggest a more adequate perusal of those passages to enlighten our hermeneutic.

I am hardly in the favor of those who want to interpret the Revelation from the literalist perspective, in that I hold that most of what we read in those visions was fulfilled either in 70AD or is currently being fulfilled. Very few amillenialists are futuristic in their interpretations of the Revelation. I also do not hold that the trees actually have hands to clap or that the moon must actually turn blood red in order for the whole of Joel's prophecy to be fulfilled in Acts 2, when Peter quite clearly says, "This is that..."

Might I further suggest that we disabuse ourselves of the thinking that the Holy Spirit is some sort of renegade Person of the Trinity, out to do His own thing trampling over the very Scriptures He inspired for the Church by giving everyone their own personal-pan-god-in-my-heart. Were it not for the Word of God you would all be like those mentioned in this verse:

Acts 19:2 (ESV)
And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

[Anonymous (207.156.7.90)]

"This means they take every single word literally, using present context sparingly."

Please define "present context."

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

If you really want to see Scripture quoted out of context, read this passage:

2 Cor. 3:1 -- 4:4

Then explain the use of the passage "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life" as quoted in a post above. Pay particular attention to 2Cor.4:2 which occurs after a "therefore." Do this and you may have a different understanding by studying the correct context. This "letter kills" is always used to create some sort of false conflict between the Word and the Spirit, or to claim that there is such a thing as the unbiblical phrase "dead letter." Compare that phrase with Hebrews 4:12, and Ephesians 6:17.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Present context: In general how the Word applies to today's reality, as in the example I sited above. Today's practical realities differ (educationally, nutritionally, societally etc)in some ways than the days in which the Word was given. Is it relevant for today, yes, extremely relevant. But practically speaking we need to live in today's world. For example...Women are highly educated and many live alone without the strict need of the "covering" that was necessary in the ancient world when women were not allowed education and were relegated to the scullery and had no legal rights. Those that chose to live by the the literal word do so as their right, and God bless them if it is what brings them closer to God. For those who find God in less strict ways, bless them as well. I do believe there is room for all, though many here do not.

I realize there are other examples and some so-called "scholars" here believe differently. I am okay with that. I believe the God of the Bible is as contemporary today as He was to the people then. He is alive and well, and not encumbered by our lack of understanding or the hubris of those who claim to know all. For we all see through a glass darkly at this juncture of our journey with him.

I am well aware of the arguments on both sides and won't bother to continue to assist in causing division on the board, so our conversation on the subject should probably end here. It is bothersome that the more strict believers cannot embrace the rest of us, but so be it. Extremists are who they are and cannot be otherwise it seems.

It's just good to know that God loves all his children.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"Just because Stevens used the teachings on the Spirit to manipulate us doesn't mean He is inactive in the world or in us today. Take back some of the ground you've given up."

Beautifully said, Bob.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.152.25)]

Jim, When Old Testament verses or passages are quoted from in the New Testament, are they always taken in the same way as you would see them in the Old Testament context? Do you know of places where Jesus or others used them differently? Or is this something you don't want to consider?

I don't see any reason to think the Spirit is in any conflict with the Word; but He would be in conflict with my flesh's interpretation of it, or your flesh's. And what it is that is meant by 'the Word' seems to find different definition for you than it does for me. You seem to confine it to the written scriptures that have been canonized, and I think God still says fresh things. Some day we'll both be dust and we can know with certainty. But feeling certain or taking certainty through faith are not the same as the way we'll know then. Anyway, I go to pray. Have a good evening. Love, Bob

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Origins in Sumerian Mythology
"According to the biblical narrative (Genesis 5:21-24), Enoch lived only 365 years (far less than the other patriarchs in the period before the Flood). Enoch 'walked with God; then he was no more for God took him'."
- Milik, Jazef. T., ed. The Books of Enoch: Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Enoch's "name signified in the Hebrew, INITIATE or INITIATOR. The legend of the columns, of granite and brass or bronze, erected by him, is probably symbolical. That of bronze, which survived the flood, is supposed to symbolize the mysteries, of which Masonry is the legitimate successor from the earliest times the custodian and depository of the great philosophical and religious truths, unknown to the world at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems, and allegories."
- General Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

Why are you posting this Book of Enoch? Are you planning to copy and paste the whole Apocrypha/Psuedographica? If so...why?

[Hodeuon (68.50.121.170)]

I agree with a historical-grammatical hermeneutic. I thought Jim gave a good summary of it.

My first serious training in understanding the Scriptures was the simple OIA - Observe, Interpret, Apply. Most times when I have to change what I think about a passage, it's because I mixed up "interpret" and "apply". The historical context can help out significantly with "observe" and "interpret", but our present day context needs to hold off until "apply".

For example, the sermon I heard yesterday (and my apologies to my pastor if I screw it up!):
In Hebrews 2:6-8, the writer quotes Psalm 8:4-6. Bob, this actually might help answer your question, too. Psalm 8 does not appear in its own context to be using these verses in a messianic way. But when Hebrews 2 quotes them, it uses them to support the idea that God the Father has put everything under Jesus. (I'm quite hesitant to impose the NT understanding on the OT context. Certainly there are OT passages that allow for more explicit NT revelation about Christ but those OT passages themselves can't be said to set forth the later revelations, just to allow for them.)

One of the main applications made was that since Jesus is over all things, and since the earth was originally entrusted to mankind and we are accountable to Him, we ought to continue to take care that which He has created. Even though the present heavens &amp; earth will pass away, we still have a stewardship and will likely have similar responsibilities in the new heavens &amp; the new earth. So today's context came into the application as "stop neglecting this area of stewardship".

Hodeuon

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Trolls don't need no reason why, they just want factnet to up and die!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Hodeuon,

Thanks! So many now attending GGWO no longer hear messages as you quoted. Carl has not spoken a message of any weight, length or clarity in over a year and a half.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.152.25)]

I remember Stevens mentioning the Book of Enoch, and at the time I was interested in reading it. But I never have, and don't intend to now.

Hodeuon, have you read any of these extra-Biblical things, and do you see any value in doing so? I think personally, I'd be more interested in some of the other things written at the same time or after the New Testament; but in reading about the many pseudo-gospels and other things attributed by some even to the apostles; it all sounds like pretty unreliable territory. Do you read Origen and Polycarp and such others?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.152.25)]

On Saturday, September 4th at 9:28 pm; one of the Daves (Drago, I believe; but it may have been Carson) posted something from 'Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutics For Lay Readers' by Gary DeLashmutt and Dennis McCallum that was a short definition on interpretation. The second to last point on the posting was: " * - If the rules of interpretation give one answer and the Holy Spirit shows another, we should choose the latter."

I don't personally have anything against the methods of interpretation that have been brought up on this board. I studied a similar one through a book called 'Grasping God's Word' by a couple of Baptists. But personally, I can't restrict myself to always taking the same kind of formulaic approach to the Word. I find it very difficult to believe that the apostles all followed this kind of approach. I seriously doubt it. But the above point that I pulled off whatever thread it was on is the balance I would have to insist on if or when I do follow such methods. This seems to me like a point that many here would consider to be willingly entering into 'subjectivity'. I consider that viewing the Word without the Spirit's active participation will lead to our deception, no matter how diligent or careful we may be. I will post Scripture for this when I have time, but I was up late last night and have less time this morning than usual.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.149.235)]

I Corinthians 2: (1) As for myself, brethren, when I came to you, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony and evidence or mystery and secret of God [concerning what He has done through Christ for the salvation of men] in lofty words of eloquence or human philosophy and wisdom;

(2)For I resolved to know nothing (to be aquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified.

(3)And I was in (passed into a state of) weakness and fear (dread) and great trembling [after I had come] among you.

(4)And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],

(5)So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.

(6)Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding) we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away.

(7)But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God-[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence].

(8)None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

(9)But, on the contrary, as the Scripture says, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man, [all that] God has prepared (made and keeps ready) for those who love Him [who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed].

(10)Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny].

(11)For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

(12)Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.

(13)And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

(14)But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them (of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them) because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

(15)But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things] yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

(16)For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart.

[Nancy (141.157.97.93)]

Beautiful post Bob, thank you.