GGWO Convention 2004

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Why don't you two just exchange phone numbers?

[Anonymous (141.157.87.223)]

haha funny cordell

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Cordell,
Pastor Stevens would label that;

" a satanic personality rapport from another kingdom of the adamic nature from the demonic realms"

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

All those wonderful prepositional phrases that are "pretend" intelligence.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

That's why we wear boots down here.

[Anonymous (141.157.87.223)]

lmao cordell

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

... all orchestrated from a supernatural kingdom of darkness who store in their supernatural computer memory banks an examination of every contenance set against divine delegated authority.

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Pick up any "Doctrine" booklet and you will find very similar "spiritual" phrases.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Now that's really unique. Not biblical, but unique, anyway. Excuse me while I put on these chaps, too.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Think I better get my shovel and waders out plus my nose plugs. The **** keeps piling up... and the smell ohhhhhhh when you quote those divine doctrines it just gets sooo fragrant!!!

[Anonymous (198.200.181.206)]

oh maria t you are so spiritual i feel so unimportant next to you why dont you take your pushcart to golden corral to get your big fat ass away from you computer keyboard for once and stop your pathetic ministering to people who dont care about your opinion anyway get a life for gods sake

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Please, lay off Maria. FYI, she hasn't posted for days. Just because you don't agree with her doesn't mean you have a right to treat her in such a demeaning way. I feel that several people here have tried to make her a scapegoat.

Yes, Maria and I have some very different perceptions about the ministry, but I know her to be a caring person with deep convictions.

[Jack & Chris Brown (70.16.16.76)]

Amen, Karen

[Anonymous (198.200.181.206)]

maria t is a know it all busy body who thinks she has a right to tell people off her nickname should be pastor maria it is fitting for her she is a nosy bitch who thinks she is better than everyone else

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Following is a comment by a parent whose child was enveloped in an abusive group (posted on Steve Hassan's Freedom of the Mind Web site):

"I participated in an unsuccessful voluntary deprogramming of my daughter, Barbara. For two days the team leader pounded at the cult member and her group. Deliberately, he insulted them using bathroom language on the theory that the cult member would "snap". We failed. As she returned to her group the cultist remarked, "Where was the love?"

Regardless of what we profess, if we do not speak in love, the truth is not in us.

-Karen

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Good one Karen. I just don't think there's a lot of love floatin' around here.

[Jack Brown (70.16.12.147)]

Is anyone watchng service tonight? We can't seem to log onto the GGWO website.

[Isabella (207.7.195.16)]

Jack, after reading your post, I logged on to GGWO website. The latest thing I could watch was Thursday night.

[Jack Brown (70.16.12.147)]

Interesting, Isabella. I haven't been able to even get onto the website itself...all day. Hmmm...

[just wondering (66.30.49.45)]

What has service been like this week??

I wish someone- perhaps, dare I say, a spy- would give us all a convention report! I haven't watched any of the internet broadcasts.

I wonder what people are thinking or talking about as they notice the obvious absence of the Lutzes, for example, and others who have been casualties of the Great Purge of 2004 or was that the Preparation for the Great Work of God?

[Anonymous (151.203.144.204)]

We sent ten spies. Eight of them were afraid to report anything, and we received the other two back in pieces.

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

HOLY COW!
It would be fun to hear comments like:
"The Convention 2002 was better than this"!

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

isnt that thing over yet? and does anyone REALLy care what they are saying there??????? i am actually more interested in the ice cream booth than anything else? chocolate? vanilla? or swiirrrrrrrrrrllllllllllllll

[Anonymous (67.242.153.41)]

I was told that it was different there this year, and that people are noticing the many missing people. One person who came from overseas asked my friend what was going on; he knew things were different just because of the atmosphere.

I didn't hear this personally but was told by my friend that Stevens said that we are saved by obedience. He also made the statement that if you commit adultery once you can be forgiven, but more than once and you will go to hell. Again, this is second hand; I did not hear it myself or the context of it.

If indeed he did say those things, how can people possibly justify it? Perhaps this may be the reason you haven't been able to get on the website? Technical "difficulties...." Hmmmmmm..

It will be interesting to see what comes down now that the convention is over. I am wondering if many have been waiting for it to be over to declare their stand and make their move.

Let's remember to really pray for those still locked in bondage, for those who still refuse to listen to anything against the ministry. Many of us still have loved ones there. Please pray with me that they will hear the voice of the Holy Spirit!

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

I heard those things he said personally via the live feed. He began by saying that he killed 5 men (and joking that Pastor Schebelli also had killed 5 men)...5 men died because they went against Carl's ministry...he mentioned the names of a couple of the towns that I recognized as I grew up near Sumner where Carl is from. He did say those things about adultry, and had the audience repeat "You get to heaven by obedience" I got chills hearing the implied nexus betwen the 5 who died and the heaven by obedience theme. I think the message is archived now and available on the website.

Roberta

[Jack Brown (141.157.118.173)]

Thank you for sharing that, Roberta. When I was finally able to get onto the GGWO website this morning, the archive of convention messages doesn't include Friday night's message. Strange.

Jack

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Actually...I don't think it is available...every night but that convention night is available...how interesting!

RJ

[Anonymous (4.155.45.183)]

I would like for a Stevens defender to come forward here and explain exactly what Pastor meant when he made those statements. I'm sure there must be some spin going around to justify it. I mean, after all, PASTOR said it.

I am also certain that the omission of Friday night's message is no accident.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I heard they removed the Archive off the Website, because it was on there yesterday and then last night it was gone, gee I wonder ehy I guess another cover up.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.164.61)]

Maybe there'll be a new improved version of Friday's message.

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

I never ceases to amaze me how they cover this stuff up. I heard it, and I know they can say it never happened...but I heard it right from Carl's mouth, and it still makes me shudder every time I think about it.

Roberta

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Hey! Whatever happened to 70X7? Where is Skip Wood now that we really need a GGWO apologist?

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

Need?

[Bob Brinton (151.203.164.61)]

Cordell, God has changed His mind. But He only informed Carl, and through him, others. The official word on it is that 70X7 is Old Covenant, prior to the Cross. Bob

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Now, now, now rj. You play nice.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I have heard that I am in fact Satan incarnate from some inside the GGWO...

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

Gee, Cordell...sounds like a badge of honor coming from them...*LOL*

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

He's right you know, you do get to heaven by obedience...
by Christ's obedience to do all the Father commanded, and that obedience is then IMPUTED to me...that's called justification.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

But the veiled implication was there..."5 men dies because they went against my ministry" was the opener..."Repeat after me: You get to heaven by obedience" was the closing line with half sentences and mumbling in between.

Truths used to inject the lie under the radar...

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

Many missing people?
Missing pastors?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

He also said if you have one abortion you can go to heaven but two you go to hell.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.144.190)]

But you can have as many women as you want. The abotions are their problem.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

well I guess when you are high on drugs it is hard to think the finer points through. He was high on Friday and apparently unable to show up for Sunday am service, the concluding service for the convention.

[777 (195.93.97.54)]

I listened to part of the friday nite message on the net also and did not like it... Also find it very curious that it has not been archived???

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Carl said it. I heard him. Everyone there heard him. He said one was from Livermore Falls, Maine...another was from Milton Plantation, Maine...where were the others from?

Who were they? How did they die? What about their families that now had no husband, no father? Who took their lives? What did they do to deserve death? Carl said they died because they went against his church.

They went against his church....hmmmm. Did they go to heaven? Carl also said Friday night that only the obedient go to Heaven. so...according to Carl did these five men go to heaven?

He said these things Friday night at this year's convention. Where is the tape? Why haven't they released the unaltered video feed?

Lets hear the truth. Who took their lives?

Roberta

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

Yeah...that abortion thing was weird....He was all over the place.

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

777: You're on the fence... I will pray the Holy Spirit speaks to you clearly about where He wants to lead you. Your misgivings are absolutely NOT satanic. I was where you are about three months ago. When you finally realize that your questions are accurate and biblically based and then you have the strength to move forward, the Holy Spirit is there to walk you through and the freedom is wonderful! You don't realize the absolute bondage to the ggwo message that you are in until you are set free. God is faithful and as so many have attested, there is abundant life after ggwo. I personally am enjoying every minute of it!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

The reason someone from GGWO doesn't come forward to explain what Stevens said is probably because of the joke about the GGWO bumper sticker mentioned on another thread. The bumper sticker supposedly says;
Stevens said it- I believe it- that settles it!

This is the thinking GGWO followers labor under.

[pop (80.74.209.43)]

Speakers? Morrison?, Schaller? Schibelli? Paul?

[Anonymous (4.155.9.162)]

They are probably working on a GG spin to the Friday night message right now. They are masters at it, aren't they? They will say something like Cordell said - yes, it was the obedience of Christ to the will of the Father that enables us to be saved. Or how about this - it our obedience to Jesus's command that we must be born again that saves us.

About the abortion and adultery statements, they will say something like this, perhaps - willfully continuing is sin is evidence that you are not really saved, or how about this - pastor knows things about people that we don't and he had to be particularly hard on this issue in order to reach someone ..... Boy, I've heard THAT one more than once.

Bill Clinton could take lessons from these guys.
LOL

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Is is is. It is the is eternal isn't it?

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

And then all the ggwo pastors go to their churches to preach these new doctrines!

[777 (195.93.96.147)]

thanx for the prayers 68 34

[pop (80.74.211.127)]

Sam Spade!
Any comments about convention?

[Sam Spade (24.131.172.186)]

In general, I was very edified.

schnargley@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I would be interested in your thoughts about Friday night's message SS. I have heard of several faith members leaving over that message. Plus the fact that Pastor was so loaded and allowed to preach in that state.

[Anonymous (141.157.104.245)]

i would like to know why i am not able to open up friday night's message, is ggwo hiding something?

[Sam Spade (24.131.172.186)]

I think the reference to being "loaded" would have to be verified. I know not the nature of his physical problems but the minimal protection we have in the secular world against slander is that we are considered innocent until proven guilty. Can not you who consider yourselves Christians at least grant that provision to a leader of a worldwide ministry?

As for the content, he actually used the verse I got saved with -1 Cor 6:9. I had been reading my Bible and preaching - in bars while getting loaded, after having slept with a female, after smoking weed,...ETC. Until I met a real Christian who read me that verse and I realized that I was lost and that obedience and surrender was what God required. I got truly saved three days later after some true conviction.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Great.... You need another rebirth dear fellow.. your blinded by your own arrogance or maybe you hide behind arrogance because the reality of being duped by Carl and the effects it had on your children's lives is more than you can handle. You have to own it and you don't want to do that. It is a harsh reality and too hard for many to realize that we did not protect our children as we should have because of blind obedience to a man. I will pray for you. I will pray for courage to face the truth.

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Hey Anon 64,
This is the "child" that you are refering to.
I thank God every day that I am not under the conrtol of that place. God used these people to show me that you can not follow a man. All that will lead to is dissapointment.

No one knows my story. People know what lies were spread by people in a position of "authority". This is how these people protect themselves from anyone that has any credibility in this church and can out them for who they are.

My father is not blindly defending pastor. He is merely stating the fact that you can not just listen to what people say about someone and take it for the truth. If you know my story you would know this.

In all the slander and lies that were thrown my way, pastor was always there for me. I have no problem with him at all. The people in delegated authority manipulate their situation and contrary to popular belief Pastor is not omnipresent and omniscient!

Here's a question for you ANON.
Why do you hide yourself. Maybe it's because you need to own your pain or guilt that was caused by these same people.
Be a man and post your name.
Mine is Ray Moon Boston MA.

I hope you find peace in forgiveness because, trust me, it will destroy you if you don't let it go. And then my friend THEY HAVE WON and Satan has sifted you as wheat!!!

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

a female what?????? SAM? we are WOMEN to say the least. Altho a MALE i am sure you would refer to yourself as a MAN... we WOMEN also prefer to be addressed as such. referring to us in gender alone is very sexist and very reiminiscent of the degrading feature of that common TBS/GG indoctrination. i apologize in advance for my comment if it offends but to be quite frank... that kind of verbage is offensive to me. in most cases a statement as such would pass right by the eyes of the casual peruser of these comments... maybe i am making a mountain out of a mole hill here but just the choice of word used it reflects more than you can imagine.
thanks in advance for being more sensitive to us FEMALES in future posts...

[SS (24.131.172.186)]

Margo,

Please don't take it that way. At that time...that was how I thought which is why I used that specific word.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Ray,

I never believed the lies. I know the underlings spread the lies and did the manipulation but they were delegated that responsibility by Carl. I am glad to hear that bitterness did not grow in your heart because of your experience here. There is no bitterness in mine either. I am not in GG now. I am in the process of recovery from this abusive group. I hope you also processed your experience. I am outraged for others, I believe our Lord is also. You were not the only victim Ray. What happened to you continued to happen to many others after you. Habitual abuse of children and cover-up must not be allowed. I would hope you could be the brave one and tell your story. It could lead to great healing of many others. Many continue to blame themselves, have never dealt with it.. you could help them.. please consider it...

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

Sam Spade is Pastor Moon?

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

i can appreciate that Sam, however you didnt write that post "at that time" you wrote it TODAY!
i am not a hair splitter and i dont want to come off as one, a simple apology to us womenkind on the board here will suffice... i know some people dont apoligise for their errors but you seem to be someone who would. thanks again, sincerely, in Christ and... in advance.
m

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

Why was Pastor Wood not at convention?

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

ANON 64,

Are you going to answer my question?

[SS (24.131.172.186)]

Ask Pr. Wood.

[. (141.157.104.245)]

omg hey ray i was letting my friend use my pc to come in here and i just saw your name, oh this is lori lol anyways im not gonna start a convo on here so email me when you can loriarg@verizon.net

[SS (24.131.172.186)]

Margo,
I'm not into that PC crap. I explained what I meant, by what I said. I was referringto a former way of thinking.That should suffice for reasonable people.

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

ANON 64

Where are you?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Ray,

Do you understand the system you were in? That anyone that voices something contrary to the GG leadership is maligned, slandered and discredited? That they spread those lies to loved ones still attending GG? That is the reason I am anonymous. I have loved ones that I am trying to pluck out of that counterfeit group. If they have a name then they attack. I can not afford to loose my loved ones by posting my name. It is not out of cowardness but it is out of wise concern for those I love.

Believe me, I have owned my own guilt for leading others into a church that hurt them. I sought forgiveness and found it. I gained a personal walk back with Christ alone. I want that also for my loved ones. For everyone. Will you speak to this forum about what you have gone through? You could help alot of hurting brothers and sisters. You speak of the peace from your pain and finding forgiveness. How did you do that? How are you now?

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

like i said sam... a simple apology would have sufficed and i take more offense to your additude now in inferring i am not a "reasonable person". i have no idea what PC crap is but that again sounds like a back handed insult at something i may have mentioned which you didnt like. i am finished with this conversation with you... but i will add on this note that your lack of apology even on a simple note as this is very specificaly indicative of your organization NOT owning up to their errors or mistakes.noone knows how to make a simple apology on something as minor as the verbage issuei had brought up, all the way to stealing peoples money, admitting their doctrines are off or any other such thing the are so obviously guilty of... from the top, right down to the SS's of the"ministry" ( i guess that is what you all still call it. PRIDE, always comes before the FALL.dont bother to respond... im not reading it, or anything else you may post. while u are yet alive there is Godly hope for you to see the truth but i will let God do His work on you, clearly He is the only ONE who delivers... Good luck, and good bye

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Ray,

I just wanted to say "hi" after so many years. I have always remembered you as a spirited, intelligent, respectful, young man who was full of life and love. Do you recall how you recounted the "Back to the Future" movies to me? It was hilarious. Years later when I finally watched them with my own son, I couldn't help but think about you. I will always have a special place in my heart for you.

Karen Duhamel

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

And SS? We'll leave the light on for you. Margo convicted me with her words about as long as you are alive, there is hope.

Light back on.

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

i got the back up light bulbs and generator in case of powerfailure 64. :o)

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Hey ANON 64,

I hear you about not wanting to be attacked and protecting loved ones. Then riddle me this, why did you out my father? Did that help your cause of helping people heal and forgive?
Did you stop to think about my family?


One thing I think I may need to clear up, I was not molested as you seem to think. You are listening to the lies that were spread about me.

It took me a very long and rebellious time after that to forgive. I decided, at the time, that if this was God then I wanted no part of Him or the people that claimed to be used by him. I watched the people that I KNEW were used by God fall of one after another. I also watched people at GG not practicing what they preached to me my whole life.

I saw first hand how anyone that voices something contrary to the GG leadership is maligned, slandered and discredited. I did realize the system I was in 12 years ago. I stated this repeatedly but was dismissed as a young relellious kid.

God spoke to me at a church in Texas! I asked him, Alright God why should I follow you when people twist and turn your words for their benefit then destroy people when they need to protect themselves? His answer was clear as a bell. Trust in me not in MAN. Not just GG but any man.

I realized then that I was bitter down to my inner being. I also realized that this was changing who I was. I needed to forgive in order to let it go. Trust me this was not easy. I kept thinking, even my so called "friends" did not come to me and ask my view. They just swalloed the lies as if they were straight out of the gospel. We were taught to go directly to the person and confront them since I was in Lenox. Why did they abondon that teaching now? They reach out to people all over the world, I know I was on "their mission field" for 5 Years, why would they not reach out to me if I was so in need?

I had to let it go because there was no answer. There will never be resolution all I can do is forgive and hope that they will change their ways!

I wish you continued sucess with your walk. I also hope that God will show these people the error in their ways. They are HUMAN and are going to be wrong along the way. Just realize it and repent and God will bless them!

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Hey Karen!
I cant believe thats you!
You were a great teacher and friend to me.
How do you like my grammer and spelling? LOL

I am so blessed by your description of me!
Tell Greg and your son that I said HOLA AMIGOS!

Love,
Ray Moon

[la (141.157.101.69)]

ray
um ok i am beginning to think either you ignored my post or you just didn't see it lol
anyways i left my email if you scroll up about 4 or 5
later
lori

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Dear Ray,

I am blessed beyond belief to hear from you. Greg is here with me now and says "hola" to you too. However, you may remember he had the worst Spanish accent imaginable! Anyway, we live quite near you--would love to see you some time. My e-mail address is duhamelkm@comcast.net. Please keep in touch.

Love,
Karen

[GDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Me accento es perfecto!
Gregorio

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Lori,
I already wrote you CHECK YOUR MAIL!!

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Hey Greg,
Que gusto leer tu accento!
Are you still driving that Econoline Van?

I would love to see you guys.
My email is raymoon@comcast.net

Ray

[la (141.157.101.69)]

ummmmm maybe it got lost in cyber space lmaooo
send it again or if you have aim add me largenzio75
later
lori

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I know I was wrong to "out" your father. I was angry and frustrated by the change in tone of his postings. He posted one about feces that just made me so angry. I am sorry for that. Now if I he gets to me, I leave the forum. It is not worth it. I am sorry if it affected your family in an adverse way. Forgive me?

The molestation story was shared only recently with me and by another victim of the abuse. This person was not offering it as dirt but as a friend dealing with their own victimization. If you say that it didn't occur then I rejoice with you, the scars from that run deep and I am glad you were spared.

It is easy with a compassionate Christ living within to forgive any individual but that does not negate the responsiblity of a system that allowed the abuse of many to be a habitual practice. That is the reason for this forum, to shed light on an abusive system that uses the name of Christ but does not practice Christ in their operational aspect. Your friends abandoned you because that is what they were taught to do. I have been through similiar and it helped me to forgive by examining the "whys" of behavior that seemed so contrary to their character. I can forgive but I cannot quietly sit by and condone habitual abuse, look the other way... move on.. without speaking up and demanding the system change. There is no repentance offered by the leaders of GG. Without repentance there will be no change at GG, they will continue to abuse others. As a believer then we have a responsibility expose a counterfeit system that habitually abuses our brethren. I hope you will join us Ray. As a recovered brother, you can help others find their way to a vital personal walk with Jesus.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

Sam Spade,

Did you mention that you slept with a "female"
to assure us that your not gay?
Because in ggwo there it is a lesser sin to sleep with someone of the opposite gender outside of marriage than there is in having a homosexual tryst. In fact there seems to be some kind of jaded honor in stating that.

Did you bring that up because you were you trying to play the David card like stevens does?
That is; "David fornicated with women but the bible says he was Gods man"
A lot of these pastors who cheat on their wives abuse that defense to maintain their self- imagined reputation as a stud.

And yes to me your wording did sound condescending of women, ("females")

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

ANON 216,

You are now guilty of the same exact thing that these people are.
I thought the point of this forum was to "bring the truth to light" and "protect future victims"

You are stooping to their level and How does that help?
Is that not hypocritical?
Let go of the hate before it consumes you

If this forum is just a way to slander and attack, what is the good of it?
I above all have every reason to want to attack and degrade but all it does is discredit your testimony and it makes it look like your hiding something yourself.

JUST WONDERING

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Sam,
Are you really saying that our own obedience saves us?

Are you attempting to provide an apologetic for Friday’s message which apparently contained all the same fear tactics of the past? And in addition it included bad doctrine?

Are you discarding the “finished work” message of “grace” for one of works? Or do you think obedience (doing things) is not works?

Sam, I have a lot of respect for you. I did not hear the message, but I have heard others like it. So and so got cancer of the tongue and died, the she-bears ate the teenagers who taunted Elisha’s bald head, etc.

Sam, Carl Stevens has preached error for more than thirty years. He has been enabled in his bad conduct for over thirty years. He needs to step down and so do his enablers.

[lost (68.38.195.85)]

hi ray moon, are you the guy that was friends to keith hancock, we have not seen him for years and miss his singing.

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Lost,
Yeah I was friends with Keith.
Who is this? Do I know you?

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I am in hope that someone will offer an apologetic for Friday night's message "Five men died because they went against my church"." He said he killed them, that pastor Schebelli was going to talk about how he had killed men in his own church. The place was so quiet you could have heard a pin drop. The tapes have now been altered.

Sam...I heard this myself. So did everyone at that service. Can no one from GGWO speak up? I for one want to hear what you have to say on this. You are a vocal advocate in other areas...you are a pastor? Tell me what you think of this?

Roberta

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Ray Moon, I think I owe you an apology. In an earlier post somewhere, I spoke to SS about his children. From what he said I wrongly, as you now say, assumed that you had been molested by someone in the church. I gather I assumed incorectly. I apologise to you and SS, and am glad beyond words that this was not the case.

May I also say that I understand completely your stance on "forgiveness". I too had to make peace with the bitterness. But I do believe that part of making peace, at least for me is to heed the Holy Spirit's cry to help others who might also be trapped in bitterness, trapped by fear, trapped by abuse inside the GGWO cult. Contrary to what some people think of me...this is my prayer and hope...to help them. I wish with all my heart there had been someone out there who could have been there for me.

You do not remember me I am sure, but I remember you and Keith when you came into the Bookstore on campus where I worked. Keith used to pop a music tape into the player behind the counter and try to get me to sing with him. How I loved that guy. He had such a wonderful sweet spirit and I have wondered for years what had become of him. I pray he is well and happy.

Ray, thanks for posting here. You are a credit to your family and it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, a heart for God and a sweet spirit.

I wish for you all the best that God's grace can give.

Roberta

[la (141.157.101.69)]

I heard that Keith passed away

[margo (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta
you are hoping for an apologetic on Friday nights sermon, but i cant even get an apology for one minor verbage affront. have they EVER apoligized for ANYTHING???????????
i wouldnt hold my breath.... or i will be addressing you as MS. BLUE because that is the color you will be from lack of oxygen in waiting for your apologetic... apology explanation etc.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Oh dear...I am sorry to hear that Keith is gone. But how much better the heavenly chorus must sound with his voice added to it.

Roberta

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Margo

It is odd isn't it that a simple apology seems to make GGWO men feel immasculated? I mean, just how insecure are they anyway? Hold my breath...not bloody likely when it comes to trying to get a straight answer from the GGWO.

Roberta

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I am sorry, now hand me that quiche.

[margo (149.174.164.83)]

RJ
its no surprise is it... ??historically it is homophobic womanizers who have the greatest fear of being immasculated... the egotistical, the bullies, macho controllers...and of course the ones who are... ALWAYS RIGHT AND NEVER WRONG.
like (spiritual) father like (spiritual) sons...
the apples dont fall far from the tree...do they...?

[margo (149.174.164.83)]

lol cordell!!

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Mmmm this quiche is good, now hand me that tutu.

Anyone remember the Monty Python lumberjack song?

Don't post it just Google and laugh.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

My wife told me to tell you that I am never wrong.

[margo (149.174.164.83)]

lets get one thing straight...she isnt your wife cordell... she is your... FEMALE!! lol

[LA (141.157.101.69)]

rough! rough! lmaooo

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

You know, don't you that I pray for your wife, Cordell? Sorry, Margo...I meant to say "female". Wasn't it the Ferengi women that were required to be nude? Okay...I admit to being a Trekkie. *sigh* Now I've done it!

Roberta

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Roberta,
Thank you for the apology not that I think you needed to give it!!
Keith was a great person and a friend. People had there opinions of him that I never listened to. That is where most of my problems began.
"Guilt by association"

The bookstore in Lenox or Balt?

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

I worked in the Bookstore in Lenox and thought Keith was such a great guy. I remember what they used to say about him, and I refused to listen too.

I am glad he had you for a friend. You sound like as good a guy as he was.

Roberta

[Ray Moon (24.131.172.186)]

Roberta,
Your letter helped me understand what happened.
I never understood how the people I considered friends would believe the things that were said.

I guess someone thought I might have had some info on what happened. Unfortunatly I didn't.
They were right to destroy my rep because I would have outed him if I knew and people would have listened to me then.

I appreciate that and I realize it took guts to do it

Ray

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

we are trekked out in our household too roberta... i am trekked by association... its like football... if it never was invented i wouldnt have missed it... i happen to have a man who would sit and watch marathons of that and Stargate for days if he could...so i guess im a trekkie by osmosis.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

excuse me.. i should have said i have a MALE sheesh!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

margo you have a man-baby! they aren't even males.. haven't progressed that far... man-babies.

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

in most cases i would have to agree with you 205. in my case i have a MAN. and since you dont know him i would appreciate it quite kindly if you kept your comments concerning him to yourself. if you dont like what i say then address those issues to me. he has nothing to do with tbs, gg, this forum or anything related to it.. which i consider to be fortunate.

[. (141.157.101.69)]

.

[joshua morin (68.33.87.202)]

well this is one friend of rays who confronted him in a biblical manner about the rumors and i wasnt surprised to find out it was all a lie. whats sad is those rumors would have never ben spread and believed (buy most) if people in ggwo practiced what they preach.

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

Well, Convention is over now...

[PASTOR MARIA (152.163.253.102)]

To 198-200-181-206 who posted 6/25 @ 5:07 p.m. and again 6/25 at 5:37 p.m.

I just wanted to thank you for your so edifying remarks!! How great your adamic nature of discernment is. Gee, with all your little spies around GGWO you should have known I was away from Tuesday of Convention week. I thought you were deserving of a reply, however I don't live in the hateful vindictive way you do. I do have two obvious choices here. I could choose to stoop to your filthy carnal level, and address you with the same crude vulgarity, like calling you an "F-ing" hypocrite (as a co-GGWO member who obviously hand picks those he gives the Finished Work too)...or, I could just say "thank you" for what you wrote, knowing I then don't have to lower myself to show the people here the
precious godly character you obviously lack. They already saw it.

I'm still laughing at what you wrote, likening me equal to Roberta, calling me "Pastor Maria." I even used it with my post just so you would see it!!! I am sure you now feel very special!! Thanks too, especially for your assumption that I had been posting that day (6/25) on the forum. Must be the new anointing I now have as a recognized Pastor on this forum, too bad you didn't sign your name I don't know who to thank for picking up my ordination papers. Since you broadcasted my new calling..(whew I just can't believe your doctrinal foundation could be that "OFF"), and, since you seemingly lack the true nature of Christ within you, I guess I will have to stick a pin in my inflated temporary pastoral ego and turn the role of "Pastor" over to the male gender where it scripturally belongs. Sorry if the Christ in me rubs you so raw that you have to lower yourself to make the comments you made. I feel sorry for you, you obviously are so filled with hatred and anger, the sight of yourself in the mirror must be horrifying to face every day. Whew, sure is nice to be single, I can live looking at my face in the mirror before the Lord, but it sure would be hard being married to someone like you having to look at your male adamic nature every morning. (This is intended solely for "198" guys...nobody else!!!)


For the record, thank you for complimenting me on my "backside." You know, my "fat ass." By the way, I haven't eaten at GC...truth is, I got VERY sick of looking at you shovelling piles of food down your throat (ALL AT ONCE) so quick it nauseated me to the point I couldn't go back there to eat again knowing you could be there, As far as my little "pushcart" goes, I just cracked up laughing myself, pausing a moment to embellish a thought solely arising from the imagination part of my adamic nature...and gee, I thought as a Pastor, I'd be able to keep it under control now that my ordination has become public...well, one could IMAGINE how sore the larger place where you sit upon (you know, the spot where your brain obviously rests), well, it could very well be that someone else really could "accidentally" aim that handy little "CART" of mine in the right direction simply by just tilting the legs upward. After all, it wouldn't be my fault for only "imagining" that the aforementioned body part that contains your brain were to meet my push cart!!! Oh yeah, I forgot for a moment that we are supposed to cast down our imaginations. Shucks. Obeying God sometimes takes the fun out of our imaginations.

I do, however, want to address a few issues with you. I never said or thought I was "better than anyone" to quote you directly. Calling me a "nosey bitch" just re-iterates your sub kindegarten type of maturity. Since you are so in tune with how I seemingly spend my day, LOL, yours may be the only "fat ass" that sits at a PC all day. Its not me who needs to "get a life."
My life is far happier than yours obviously is. I serve the greatest God, He's wonderful to get to know, perhaps I could interest you in meeting Him someday.

You see, "198" you give me reason to seriously pray now. I'm going to prayerfully consider going to those in charge over Factnet.org and by give them your IP number and a photocopy of the posts, dates and times, I could infact force them to ID you, but also to show the exact location of where you posted from. In fact I may just have to call and enlist the counsel or aid of my extremely godly GGWO attorney). Since JD Skeets so carefully straightened many of us out on exactly what the difference is between libel and slander, you very well could have your own "special" civil suit. Between the 2 posts of 6/25 and the other one you posted on thread 9 or 10 as "S.M."...you've heard the old adage "3 strikes...YOU"RE OUT." I don't care if you're part of "leadership" at GGWO either, my bible says you don't sue your brother in Christ, well, by your actions and words you don't fit that description.

You want a way out? Publically apologize to me on this forum with your signed name -- in front of all those you wanted to humiliate me in front of. You never expected Karen Duhamel or Jack and Chris Brown to come back at you in my defense. They are wonderful godly people. Karen is right, we may not have the same perceptions about GGWO, but, I respect her right to her "opinions" as she respects my right to mine. She is a precious sister in Christ, and a special friend.

"198" Maybe this experience will teach you a few things, like you can't appropriate the Finished Work message to those you choose. To do so is to be a hypocrite. Jesus Christ died for us all. I won't cast my pearls before your kind of swine. You already have your "opinions" and probably are turning a deaf ear to what I've written, but if I were you, I wouldn't underestimate my vertical with God.


By the way, what Karen D. wrote was true. I had not posted the day (6/25) you stated. I was out of town from the 22nd thru July 1.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.11)]

Maria, you break my heart. Your hateful sarcasm reveals much about you. I cannot even imagine the emotional energy it takes to write such posts. Let go of your anger, sister. That line from Shakespeare keeps coming to mind when I read your posts, "Me thinks thou protestest too much...." Let it go before you end up in the hospital with stress induced illnesses!

[Anonymous (70.16.5.75)]

Posting from Nancy Curra on the Deleware Thread:

Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 07:19 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is really sad to see. Most posts here are either slanderous, back biting, crude or rude. Many post anonymously and noone on any thread I have asked will answer me why they are anonymous if what they say on either side is the truth. No one is going to hunt anyone down or even care so why not say who you are? The fear of man is a snare. I also thought this was supposed to be a place to help the hurting. This is not how you help someone who is hurting. The substance of Christianity is love for the brethren, all brethren, even if they live in sin. You go to them privately and then bring 2 witnesses. This is Bible not GG or Pastor but what is taught in the Bible and also in years past taught, if not always practiced, by the leaders in GG. I don't see where this is solving anything. And sometimes really I don't see evidence of adulthood here. If what you say on either side is true, write your name without shame or fear of men. Quit ye like a man. Bible speaking. You speak Bible but don't practice it by your very own typings here. Think with God before you write. Then it will be what is pure, edifying, instructional and if need be correctional. God bless you all but you are not helping me a bit on either side. I fear I trust very few people who stayed or who left. And I am not afraid to write it or say it for fear of personal damage to my character. I stand before God, not this board, nor dissidents, nor Pastor, nor the leadership, nor straddlers, nor spirit filled Christians. I stand before Him as you do too. My prayer to God is that I reflect His nature in every adversity. I pray that even through these simple words He is reflected and that no one feels I am against them, I just am finding it hard to trust anyone in any camp.


*************************************
Well written, Nancy. Thanks for what you wrote from your heart.

Maria T

[Anonymous (70.16.5.75)]

to: Anonymous (4.156.99.11) who posted
Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 07:45 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Maria, you break my heart. Your hateful sarcasm reveals much about you...."

Have we met? I don't think so. I don't hide behind anonominity in my posts. I so glad to know that you have such an exact revelation about me. Sorry I broke your heart.

I have an idea. I'll walk in your shoes 24 hours/day for a week if you'll walk in mine. Email me: gracekid2 at aol.com. After that, you tell me what YOU would have done or said to the person who posted those two wonderfully edifying posts to me on 6/25 on the Convention 2004 thread...around 5:00 p.m. or so. You walk in my shoes. You will then know my real heart. It isn't one of stone either, and I don't think yours is. If the shoe was on the other foot I would have risen to your defense against that hateful poster. Its a shame that instead of sticking up for a fellow sister in Christ, your silence implies your agreement.

Now that isn't hateful sarcasm either. Simple truth. Thank God I know my redeemer lives, and that I fall just like everybody else does around here. I guess thats why all of us need our Savior, isn't it.

Maria T.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

J.D. Skeets may be pedantic about "libel and slander", but this appears to be his subtle way of threatening people with a lawsuit if they say something he does not like, especially about ggwo.
Skeets lies low and interjects his textbook legal observations every now and then. In everyday courtroom "libel and slander" is not as simple as he portrays it.
J.D.Skeets comes off as a plant here on the posting boards attempting to scare away people who have left ggwo,from saying what they know about ggwo's abuses and naming names.
His practice of doing so may have some effect, but by and large it hasn't stopped the flood
of people crying out for justice in the form of now 13,000 posts, or the lawsuits and ggwo church splits.
Let him use his subtle lttle threats to silence people here, or to attempt to sue someone.
GO AHEAD AND SUE ! SUE ! SUE! SUE!
But you may be surprised that some people will countersue. You cannot stop what God has begun.

If you reject the idea that God has brought this about, then consider the words an observer of human events made a thousand years ago; "All the armies that ever marched could not stop an idea whose time has come."

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

216,
JD Skeets is a woman and she may SUE you for misrepresenting her as a man

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

we just found out yesterday that SKEETS is a girl!
but your right.. she is confrontational and overall someone who irks the crap out of me

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Nancy, several of us have addressed not just the desire, but the need for anonymity on this forum. I have personally answered you at least twice. It is your perogative to choose not to accept the answers provided to you; however, it is inaccurate to state that no one has provided an answer.

[Anonymous (70.16.5.75)]

LOL Margo!! You aren't the only person she irks the crap out of!!

Maria T

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

well Maria T... seems it doesnt matter if youre in the GG or out... at least we agree on that one!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[JD Skeet (64.12.117.20)]

Hey--

It's fine that some people don't like me, that's just the way life is. (Though Maria, for someone who is irked by me, you sure do quote me a lot.)

But it's an absolute misrepresentaiton of everything I have posted to say that I tried to scare anyone or threatened anyone.

I posted a lay definition of libel and slander (hardly pedantic) and encouraged everyone to use personal responsibility, no matter what position they took. I told them where the boundaries are, because there are boundaries regarding free speech.

Also, do you really think a plant from GGWO would tell people to seek out the MD attorney general and the IRS regarding possible abuses at GGWO?

The great thing about FACTnet is that the posts never go away. Check it out.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

JD is right, she has always tried to give solid objective advice to protect people from getting themselves in trouble, or even from weakening their case by the way they present it. I for one have appreciated and learned much from her posts.
And Maria, I don't have a problem with you personally, but if there was a poll taken as to who irks the most people on this board, I think you would be right up there at the top! I have seen more people react to you than to any other person except Loretta. So if JD or anyone else irks you, try to keep that in mind

[Anon the Brief (64.12.117.20)]

Weighing in here in defense of JD, although she hardly needs it. She has been concise, direct and knowledgeable. Her cautions have been accurate and, in my opinion, well needed at times.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

I will join the JD defense team. I think JD is an important facet to this board and is much needed if anything substantial comes along again.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Also, Margo, when someone said some pretty nasty things about you on another post, JD was one of the first to come to your defense. She spoke quite highly of you. I know you think that your argument with her negates that, but I don't think it should

[JD Skeet (64.12.117.20)]

Thanks, ladies. Very kind of you.

[JD Skeet (64.12.117.20)]

Er...maybe you're not all ladies. Just thanks, then.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Also very true

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

i didnt say anything nasty.. all i said was that she irks me and she does. she said she stays on this site to argue with people. she specifically said she would stay on this site to argue with me.
people can say what they want about me, nasty or not... i appreciate the support of others but i dont NEED it... this is an internet message board for crying out loud... do you really think im going to go and slit my wrist because someone who doesnt even know me or my life says something i am supposed to get reactionary about. puhhhhhhhleez!
so im glad the SKEET has all your support. give it to her because she needs it more than i do.... i mean that genuinely and sincerely and WITHOUT APOLOGY!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

skeet....so, you're going to stay on the board?

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

oy vey!

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Margo, I think JD was really just kidding when she said she would stay on to argue with you!

[MARGO (152.163.253.102)]

she needed to say that then 152. but she didnt do that so i can only take her at her face value. anyway... life is too short to carry a long stick. NEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXT

[JD Skeet (205.188.117.20)]

Just came back to correct an untruth.

But I'll be around.

[JD Skeet (205.188.117.20)]

Margo, if you go back to the message you'll notice a winking smiley face under the comment about arguing with you. It's there to convey that I was joking.

[Nancy C (172.170.236.50)]

Guess I missed the answer with so many threads. what was the answer for anonyminity? fear of man?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Some people just want to be anonymous. It is their choice. End of story

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

girls just want to have fun.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

weird al's version is better...

"girls just wanna have lunch"

[Bob Brinton (141.154.184.203)]

Isn't 4:18 am a little early for lunch? I really think you oughta have some breakfast first.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Don't you all ever SLEEP?

[Anonymous (4.156.99.149)]

To Maria,
No, we do not know each other and I did not say that I know your heart. I was addressing your posts that are SO sarcastic and expressing concern for your physical health. I was trying to reach out to you in love, Maria, and once again, you fired back with angry sarcasm. You are very much on the defensive, even when you are not being attacked.
It doesn't always take walking in someone's shoes to know that they are hurting. I am sorry if I hurt you; it was not intentional.

Now, as far as posting as anonymous - Have you had your life destroyed by GG? Have you been lied about to members of your own family? Have you had your own children turn their backs on you? Have you had your pastor take out a file on you and use it to hurt you?
Do you think all these people are simply MAKING UP these stories????
I continue to post anonymously to prevent these things from happening to me and my family, some of them who are still in GG. I am hiding behind it, as you put it, for some very good reasons. And I am really tired of people making an issue out of it. It is the corrupt system that has bred this kind of fear in those of us who are posting anonymously.
God bless you today, Maria.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

also people from GG/TBS post anonomously as well... what their reason is, i dont know... if they have the audacity to defy the pulpit and actually come on here and post, (and they do) they should at least consider using their own names.what are they afraid of... getting cancer of the fingertips?

[mike anair (68.38.195.85)]

hi ray moon, thanks for the message that you were frinds to keith, Do you know where he is, Also your father gave me a sweater that i still have and i remember all those times in lenox, I did see you around and was good friends to keith, i would like to know he is well, I myself have been out of sorts because of all the things that have happened in this church so many people gone and so many friends lost because of diffent views. I dont know what would happen if Jesus came to this church would He be recieved.

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

I cannot wait until Convention 2005

[Anonymous (67.243.135.76)]

What are your OTHER interests 68.33.184.79?

Perhaps diving headfirst into a swimming pool full of razor blades?

Or possibly licking all the bathroom floors of places like Grand Central Station with your tongue?

These other "activities" are much more appealing to many on this board you're experiencing a vagal response at the thought of these additional activities...many on this forum have the same "bad taste" in their mouths from their GGWO experience!

However, it's CERTAIN you probably don't have time for ANYTHING since this "church" has a way of consuming one's: time, finances and rational thinking skills!

WAKE UP DUMMY!

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Maybe it was sarcasm. Switch to decaf.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

it seems the conventions theme message is about them being persecuted or they always mention the things that happened in lennox etc. ..
one thing i notice about mostly all churches today is NONE of them Pray for our fellow brethren thats really being Persecuted for their walk with Christ, nations like : Pakistan China Sudan all guilty of human rights abuses ..

[Anonymous (67.243.135.48)]

WHAT? Mention the persecuted church...but that would take attention away from "Pastor" and Scibelli, etc. ad naseum! Shame on you for thinking about our suffering brothers and sisters in Christ worldwide and taking undue "honor" away from Pastor Stevens bad jokes which break the anointing every church service. "tisk" "tisk"

No really, the point you make is VERY valuable and part of the reason I left the "three-ring circus" know as Greater Grace World Outreach...

Too much "Pastor" worship via "obedience" to a works program and not enough concern for the real issues of the Christian faith!

[Maria T (70.16.26.57)]

To 4-156-99-149 who posted

Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 06:56 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Maria,
No, we do not know each other and I did not say that I know your heart. I was addressing your posts that are SO sarcastic and expressing concern for your physical health. I was trying to reach out to you in love, Maria, and once again, you fired back with angry sarcasm. You are very much on the defensive, even when you are not being attacked.
It doesn't always take walking in someone's shoes to know that they are hurting. I am sorry if I hurt you; it was not intentional.

Now, as far as posting as anonymous - Have you had your life destroyed by GG? Have you been lied about to members of your own family? Have you had your own children turn their backs on you? Have you had your pastor take out a file on you and use it to hurt you?
Do you think all these people are simply MAKING UP these stories????
I continue to post anonymously to prevent these things from happening to me and my family, some of them who are still in GG. I am hiding behind it, as you put it, for some very good reasons. And I am really tired of people making an issue out of it. It is the corrupt system that has bred this kind of fear in those of us who are posting anonymously.
God bless you today, Maria.
******************************************

To "4-156"...I want to thank you for posting this note, and I am not saying that with any sarcasm to you whatsoever. I don't believe you were trying to be hurtful to me. Sorry I didn't get back to answer you sooner, I don't go on Factnet every day, I have a lot going on in my personal life that has nothing to do with GGWO or anybody in it. I also honestly have spent hours on the phone investing in people that are writing here on the forum. Because of the very large number of threads it sure is hard to catch up even if you miss a few hours!!

I have a very "dry" sense of humor and things pop out sometimes or get misunderstood. I truly don't hate anyone. People here posting are hurting, I don't take that lightly. My heart is that I wish I could fix "both" sides of the coin here. Of course one person could not do that alone. I probably spazzed out when you labeled the rhetoric in my other post to be hateful sarcasm. If I seemed angry I truly wasn't, sometimes I just get sick of being the 'enemy' for standing up for what I believe is right before God. Being in that position does open oneself up for any kind of attack....people hurting (and I was there myself too) always take things personally, even if they weren't said in that particular manor.

The hardest thing is knowing the one who posted anonymously against me (198..."SM")...someone who used to act quite so differently at church, was a friend, or so I thought. There isn't any one of us here posting who could disagree with my saying that being stung by a friend hurts. Betrayals hurt no matter which end of the grass we are on. I beleive that is also why a number of those posting on both sides become defensive in some of their replys. Ugly lies said about them. People hurting do react defensively, me included!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

All of us are precious to the Lord. Whether we are "dissenters" or not (depending on which "side" we are on). I truly don't have a side in this situation. Yes I am "one" with the ministry as I wrote on the Deleware forum (please read my posts there so I can be spared the sarcasm of being labelled "long winded" again!) http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif That "one-ness" is because of my calling from God. It has nothing to do with anybody there, from Pastor right on down the line. I have clearly stated that right from the start, and some have taken it both ways...that I don't give a darn about those hurting, and then others have seen my heart and my convictions....and that I please no man.

I have helped people here behind the scenes, I don't need to be adulated over it nor am I trying to elevate myself, or boast, or whatever. Perhaps when I've said I don't care where people go to church may sound unfeeling, but its not meant that way. I believe we all have a vertical before God and He has to lead us. Whether He keeps people at GGWO or leads them on, the bottom line is that the body of Christ doesn't "end" at GGWO and fellowship with those at GGWO if you are "in" or "out" shouldn't stop if someone else is lead elsewhere by God.

I've seen people in so many churches do that to people that have left out --done from sheer spiritual immaturity. Its not limited to one ministry. or denomination. I saw it in the Catholic church growing up. A family relative got divorced, and when they wanted to re-marry and remain in the Catholic church, it was not going to happen. They were "ex's" -- and basically kicked out...I think the term was "excommunicated." Recently, after 20 yrs after that other family situation happened, my brother just experienced the same thing!! He got married out in Phoenix. He wanted to be married in the Catholic church that he and his fiancee were attending faithfully every week. Their priest, who had befriended them when my brother was going thru an ordeal with cancer, refused to do the ceremony because 25 years ago his fiancee's first husband had divorced her!! He also had left her to raise her 5 kids alone. So, she was divorced...now (and back then) a "marked" woman. The priest didn't know she had been divorced in all the times he spent with them while my brother was undergoing chemotherapy. It never came up. Well, they have stopped going there to church, the last straw being that they were told if they do marry and have any children, that those children couldn't be baptized in the church either. Now, my brother is also "marked" -- for marrying a divorced woman!!! They had a civil ceremony.

The point I am making is that no church is perfect. I never denied the existance of people having hurt feelings here, and, from some of the same things I did experience myself as I shared in the very early threads on this site.

"4-159" please consider writing to me off the forum, I have some things to share with you if you want to hear them, and they aren't for the public. You don't even have to put your name on the email, just put "from a forum friend" in the subject line and in the email tell me its you.
If you decide not to write, thats ok too.

"gracekid2 at aol.com"
God Bless you too.

Maria T

[Maria T (70.16.26.57)]

To JD Skeets...You are right, I have quoted your posts many times. I said what I said in agreement to Margo because that day, reading the posting "war" between the two of you, what you were writing was irking me reading it...because you weren't willing to let go...you (now this is my impression, assumption or whatever..) seemingly liked "getting Margo's goat." I think at one point, you knew truthfully that you were getting to her and the tone of the posts changed to becoming unChrist-like... That was the primary thing that had irked me, I had never seen those kinds of statements from you before on the forum. I didn't like it, and I kinda felt bad that you appeared to be beating on Margo...but that is my opinion and you don't even have to address it, or explain yourself to me.

Some of the posts that include bantering back and forth have been funny -- when they are not hateful, degrading, carnal, or downright ugly.
It degrades the character of Christ in us when they aren't and we post that way...because then, they don't bring forth life and they aren't really edifying to the hearers/readers. At that point things have gotten way out of control, and things have become so negative and sickening to read that totally is the opposite of the character of Jesus Christ in all of us here.

If we are truly going to purpose to love each other that are posting here -- as our brothers and sisters in Christ -- and agree to "amicably" disagree without taking it to carnality, or slamming people with low blows, or mocking people for their convictions or whatever...then perhaps those "newcomers" coming here to post won't be so freaked out by the seemingly hateful ways people were treating each other here. I'm not saying that we all can't disagree, its how we represent that disagreement in our posts...I am not speaking to everyone and excluding myself either...we are/were guilty of this at one time or another when we've posted. I don't mean this to those who are "venting" or "needing to share." I mean stuff like...well, take "Dave" for example...yes, he does pluck many of our nerves...but can't we be a bit kinder to an obviously weaker brother? He's just trying to fit in, to be accepted...and perhaps has questions too that need to be answered. Yes, I know he has had things explained over and over to him again, and he doesn't "get it"....but it doesn't exclude us from needing to show him love in our approach of telling him to get lost, etc.
That is not attacking anybody here either, its just put out as food for thought for all of us, me included.

So, JD, I didn't mean any offense by what I wrote in regards to you. I apologize if I hurt you, I didn't mean to. I've just been at the other end of the whipping post here, and my heart went out to Margo in that position, same as it would to anybody else that was seemingly being pistol whipped by anybody here. At times, my even attempting to straighten out things that weren't right was taken to be "pistol whipping" of others by me, and that was never my heart at all from the start of my very first post.

I won't apogize for it if it was something God led me to post that convicted anyone about issues/hateful comments/or downright lies posted that needed being addressed and explosing the real truth. I am NOT saying that EVERYONE here not "for" GGWO is a liar so don't open that can of worms!! I am not ever going there. I will, however, address what I know in fact, to be misrepresented falsely here on this board...based on my personal experiences.

Issues I should not, cannot or won't "touch upon" are things I was not present to see or hear personally. (Unless it doesn't line up with the Word of God).

Have a great day in the Lord, JD. I hope you do continue to post.

Maria T

[Anonymous (67.249.214.222)]

HEY NOSEY - M.Y.O.B!

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Dear Mike Anair,

You posed a very provocative question on your post of July 8th; Would Jesus be welcome at Greater Grace today?

That depends Mike.

If he was not shadowed by GGWO security goons for his suspicious looks, I.E (Jewish looking with long hair).
Betcha Mr. GGWO Security- "Colonel" Selph would be in for quite an embarrasing surprise after messing with this Jew.

Would Jesus be willing to follow Pastor Stevens around and "receive" his teachings?

To be accepted closer to the inner circle, what would Jesus bring to the ministry of monetary value or influential connections? Or at least enough to merit his own personalized parking space as a few have at GGWO because of these very things.

How would Pastor Stevens flip out when Jesus questioned him as he questioned the pharisees in public in his day?

Would Jesus even wait this long before outrage filled him for the evil Pastor Stevens perpetuated under the guise of Christs name, and then began turning over the doctrine booklet selling tables?

What would Jesus say about Pastor Stevens railing openly about others sins while never repenting openly about his own pharisaical acts of adultery over 30 years?

What would Jesus say to the little children who watched their parents divorce over the urging of Pastor Stevens?

Anyone else?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.179.167)]

The way all of us have been treated at TBS/GGWO is the way Jesus has been treated there. It's been a bit of a mixed bag. Bob

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Well they certainly would have seated Jesus towards the back. Security would have whispered to each other in their microphones and strategically seated a couple of armed bodyguards near him. He has the look of a troublemaker. They are viligant to protect "Pastor" from trouble. I think Jesus would be appalled to watch the wealthy and connected prance in late and be escorted by the ushers to the front reserved seats. I think he would have cringed at Pastor's movie star entrance well after the wealthy had even been seated. I think the entrance with the armed body guards and the babes would bring P.Pilate back to memory. I think he would have found the wig a bad fashion statement.

But I think importantly He would have the outrage of one who loves others. I think He would have risen and shouted and turned chairs over, I think He would point to Carl and say "Let my people go".. He would demand the devouring of His sheep for personal gain to end. He would speak for His sheep. He would expose Carl for the liar he is. He would rip to shreds the men around him. He would turn to His sheep,weeping, arms outstretched, He would say to His children "I called and called you from within and you could not hear my voice, so I call you now, come my children and follow me"... and out everyone that knew Him and recognized that voice would go.

Immediately Marr would jump up and grab the microphone and shout we will sue you for slander, Robinson would jump to his feet, with tears in his eyes and begin applause for our dear pastor maligned after all he has done. Schaller would be rubbing his face like he missed the whole thing and say "Pastor is our shepherd, let's all baaa like sheep and show him our loyalty." Except their voices would be echoing, an eery spirit would be present and the only sheep left are sitting way up front in their special preferred seat. Why should they give up their seat to follow a men in robe and with all those unimportant people no less!!

[Anonymous (67.249.214.165)]

152, Thanks for sharing this very imaginative and thought provoking, non-fiction I might add, narrative!

[Anonymous (67.249.214.165)]

This attitude of "favoritism" found at Greater Grace World Outreach always felt sophmoric; much like the awkward days found in Jr. High School. Remember the childish cliques which prevailed in adolescence? There were always the "haves" who were the cool crowd, such as: jocks, cheerleaders, moneyed and good looking and the "have nots" who consisted of: dwebs, geeks, and dorks. Just like GGWO I'm afraid!

No doubt GGWO's leadership's respectful treatment I received was due to my professional position, which lent credibility to this cult, attractiveness and money.

I am SO glad that Jesus looks at the heart and doesn't give a rip about "prestige" and "position." He just loves us unconditionally!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.179.167)]

You kind of have to think that if Jesus was allowed to take His own seat, that He'd go sit next to the person everyone else would most want to avoid. Bob

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

wow, around hre that would be me...how cool is that.

I love the song by Mercy me :I Can Only Imagine"...you know it. It reduces me to a puddle wvwet time I hear it.

In 2000 when I was so near death, I waited to hear angels...isn't that funny? I wanted to hear them moving about me, i wanted to see them. I think I will cry with deep joy when i see Him...

[Nancy C (172.142.217.143)]

I have been as transparent and honest as possible here on this board. I have asked questions and shared my heart.

About convention I will share this. I would have given anything to have been able to be there. Not because of pastor or the staff, but I have so mnay dear and precious friends from around the world that came and that love the Lord.

and there are some portions who speak who are incredibly anointed and discerning and I would have loved to hear them. They lift up Jesus and Him alone.

I will not comment on the messages except to say I pray God opens ears and gives people discernment in what they hear.

[Sammie (4.157.65.94)]

Mike Anair...
Is it really you? I haven't seen you in for ever and i just came to this site because some one mentioned it to me.... HOw are you what have you been up to?
Did you ever hear anything about where or how Keith is.

MIss ya bunches

[Anonymous (63.27.17.76)]

Does anyone out there know if Jackie Gough or Deedee Stoddard came to convention this year?
If indeed they had a "legitimate" reason for leaving "homebase" you would think they'd both make the effort to return to the "body" if they had left on good terms. What do you think?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

They left for the same reason we all left. They were not at the convention.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Does anyone really return to the "body" when they leave? From what I have experienced and witnessed, people cut all ties, a few in Newark actually moved, changed phone numbers. I can't think of anyone who left on good terms.

[Anonymous (141.157.79.108)]

To: 63 Make an effort to return to he "body"???? r u nuts ?? they are in the Body of Christ. They are Godly Godly women. they left. Use your critical thinking skills, Why would Pr. Lutz, Jacqi and DeeDee leave a place thay had been faitful to for 20 some odd years?

[Anonymous (141.157.97.93)]

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