WHY DO PEOPLE GO TO BOTH BALTIMORE CHURCH AND ABERDEEN

[Anonymous (4.155.238.200)]

Especially since this past Sunday morning's message!!! Didn't you people hear your Pastor teacher that you are out of God's will for going to Aberdeen, that you have to STAY at homebase till you have PERMISSION from Carl to go????

Has nothing to do with your call.

Has to do with the $50,000 they now need to keep things running smoothly!!!

WAKE UP PEOPLE OF BALTIMORE!!
WAKE UP BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!
CAN'T YOU SEE THE CONTROLLING HERE?

[Anonymous (4.155.238.200)]

I personally don't understand how people can work in the back offices of GGWO, kiss Carl's butt, and then, be at Aberdeen Church Sunday morning and Thursday nights!!!

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS SPIRITUAL LOGIC TO ME???

[Anonymous (4.155.238.200)]

OR ARE YOU SPIES FOR CARL GOING TO ABERDEEN????

[Anonymous (4.155.238.200)]

I highly doubt Pastor Paul needs spies in Baltimore. He already knows the corruption that has gone on there and has removed himself from it.

[Anonymous (63.27.24.12)]

Perhaps this whole "split" between "homebase" and Aberdeen is actually a VERY calculated move by daddy and son to shift loyalties away from Carl and unto Paul who will then neatly step into the homebase position looking like a hero!

I wouldn't put it past these coniving and manipulative jerks!

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

Believe me 63.27

If there is anything calculating going on, it has nothing to do with Pastor Paul. He has been maligned, and his family has been attacked by the leadership in Baltimore. Pastor C Stevens has with one hand blessed Pastor Paul's work in Aberdeen, and then publicly denounced it from the pulpit. I have personally seen Pastor Paul physically sick because of all this CRAP. He will not be going back to Baltimore to serve with that pit of serpents.
He is working with other church leaders to separate from the BONDAGE of doctrine he learned all these years from his father. He is ready to move on and serve God in joy with anyone who is willing.
Pray that God expands his vision and capacity to grow, and guides him during this time of transition in his life.

[Anonymous (64.12.114.146)]

I agree with 68.34.76.34, Paul is doing the best he can to separate from his cultic roots. He is in the process just like the rest of us. CRI report said something similiar to this: Usually it takes some type of personal experience with Carl turning on you to have your eyes opened. When Carl's drug abuse was about to take his life, Paul intervened. The results became his epiphany. He has been in the long process of leaving every since.

The sad part is all the rest of the leadership had the same opportunity to obey God, truth and righteousness and chose to obey Carl, lying and deceit. I believe God allowed these men a very clear picture of the counterfeit system they were a party to. I believe it was God's grace towards Carl and cohorts to get it right finally. They chose unwisely and selfishly. The crumbling of GGWO, the exposing of Carl's sick self is a result of their disobedience. No bandaid no damage control can repair when God's hand is wielding the hammer. Except one small and easy step: True repentance and change. But they don't know how...

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I'm impressed with God's timing......He seems to give us opportunities to make right decisions at certain times.....sometimes they are at the most difficult stage of a situation....BUT if we choose wisely, we'll be alright, if we don't, we'll have consequences to pay. We can change our minds at any time, if we've made a poor decision. But in many cases, I've seen poor decisions made one after another, which leads to quite a mess. This is where confusion comes in and we wander around, not knowing where we are going or what is happening. This is a time when we could be easily led astray.

My prayer today is that we'll all get quiet before God and KNOW that He is for us, His will is better for us in the long run than choosing something that may appear to be easier or because 'pastor' told us to, or a charismatic person seemed to be the one to follow.

I believe that the time is now, to make decisions for your future.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

It seems to me that the most important thing amongst the GGWO "elite" is to head a church or be a pastor.

Don't worry whether your act is together concerning your personal relationship with God, don't concern yourself with whether or not you're qualified to preach, COUNSEL (I'm talking about Paul here), or lead, don't fret about the people you've stepped on or any of that.

No, the most important thing is to hold the title of PASTOR! And then, GROW THE CHURCH!

Paul Stevens is the product of Carl Stevens and GGWO's teachings. If Paul and Carl had not had a falling out over what is on the surface a son trying to get his father some help, but is likely also a power play for the GGWO empire, then Paul would be right there at GGWO biding his time until Carl passes away.

I am asking some honest questions here. What reason has Paul given for starting another church? What are the differences, according to Paul, between Aberdeen and GGWO? Has Paul, from the pulpit spoken out against delegated authority? Has he said that he is accountable to the congregation? What are his feelings on "touch not mine annointed"? And to those who go to Aberdeen, what qualifications, other than being trained by Carl, does Paul have? Is his qualification "hey, at least I'm not Carl"?

I hear a lot about how humble Paul is. Well, humble is great, but Carl claims to be humble, too. And he's about as far from humble as you can get. What does Paul Stevens say about conducting marriage counseling while the pastor is having an affair with someone in the class?

I am not saying that Paul is evil, because I don't know. But I do believe that Carl is, at least from what I've seen. And I've seen a LOT. Paul is a product of GGWO. I question Paul's qualifications to be a TRUE pastor and not someone who is seeking the power and glory of the position. I question his starting a church without some "down time" after leaving GGWO. I also find it interesting that the support/defense of Aberdeen all centers around Paul's humbleness, what he's gone through, his "annointedness", and his PERSONALITY. HIS PERSONALITY, people! It's another case of worshipping the man, not the message.

Let the flames begin.

Boss Martian
The Mean Green

[Anonymous (63.27.67.223)]

lee,

You have no idea how prophetic and appropriate your words of...

"My prayer today is that we'll all get quiet before God and KNOW that He is for us, His will is better for us in the long run than choosing something that may appear to be easier or because 'pastor' told us to, or a charismatic person seemed to be the one to follow.

I believe that the time is now, to make decisions for your future.'

Thanks for sharing; as I REALLY needed those words right now!

[Anonymous (63.27.67.223)]

You are SO ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in your observations about the "Paul Situation." These things needed to be said and were concisely well stated...bravo Boss bravo!

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I think Paul needs the 'body's' prayers more now. He will face things in his ministry that he already has preconceived ideas about. He was taught at his father's knee, so to speak. This is a man that really needs to hear from God. I desire for him a group or organization that can help, support, counsel and hold him accountable.

May God bring them blessings for future wisdom.

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

Boss Martian....ask Pastor Paul yourself

Finished Work Ministries, Havre De Grace has a listed phone number.

Down time...how about being sent away for 30 days by the "so-called" leadership in Baltimore.

Where is that in the Bible?

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

I think all of your concerns are legitimate. I believe Paul would pretty much agree. I know he has said that he wants to take it slow. He has been preaching about everyone having a strong vertical with God and to build their families up. I know that he has gone for counseling to seek God for his own healing and his family. He also said that the by-laws of the church in Havre De Grace were being set up with help from Attorney Gibbs in Florida. The elders want complete accountability in every aspect of the church. By the way, Paul has his bachelors degree in theology from a college in Georgia and is going after his masters degree.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

What in the heck is a "vertical" with God? More cult jargon?

Paul doesn't have to answer to me personally. The questions that I asked were ones that in my opinion should be asked BY the congregation and answered TO the congregation. It sure smacks of GGWO when you have to go one on one to get questions answered that shouldn't even have to be asked in the first place.

The main questions I think anyone would want answered (and I would ask this of ANY non-denominational church) is why have you split away from your former church (in this case GGWO) or denomination? What will the person attending this church get (or not get), by not going to GGWO? What is your relationship with GGWO TODAY?

And I know this seems to be a common practice among GGWO and affiliates, but back to my original point, it seems like the most important thing amongst the GGWO "elite" is to get their own church. To hold the title of pastor. To have power. It's like a multi-level marketing scheme.

And I still think that given Paul's background, it's way too early for him to be leading a flock. I'm definitely NOT saying he should never be a pastor again, but there is a LOT to address and get over after being born and raised in GGWO and being Carl's son.

Boss Martian
"Once you go Green, you'll never go back!"

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

I guess you have a right to your questions. But, the people in Havre de Grace already know those answers and they have all been discussed here for quite sometime. Pastor Paul never wanted his own church, so do obviously do not know him. He as very content being an assistant. If you do not know what it means to have a vertical, then you have a problem. That is not GGWO talk. I have heard that everywhere in numerous churches. As far as being to early to pastor, I don't think that is any of your business. I think he is trying to move on and get as much counsel as possible to do it right. So, I guess that is between him, his God and the congregation that wants to go there.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

I have never heard the term "vertical" in any Baptist, Methodist, or Catholic church that I've ever been in.

Now the fact is, I may have a "vertical" and not even know it because I don't know what it is. Do I have a spiritual problem because I don't know what the term "having a vertical" means? Do you think that I can't have a vertical because I don't know what it is?

If I ask you what my grandmother's maiden name is and you don't know, do you have a problem?

How arrogant and cult-like is your response. One cult tactic is the use of jargon or assigning different meanings to common words in order to create a sense of confusion.

I am sincerely asking what a "vertical" is.

Boss Martian
Tired of the lies

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

You are a riot. I guess it does not matter. Of course you have a vertical, whether you understand the term or not. I guess I would say it is one's relationship with God ( vertical ) vs. the relationships on earth, ( horizontal ) just because I know these terms does not make my language cult-like, does it ?

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

By the way, I first heard the term vertical from Jerry Falwell.

[Anonymous (63.27.26.110)]

Who-ah Boss! I have a further question for 70.17...who the heck is P. Paul going to be accountable to? After all, da-da was accountable to no one or no place other than HIMSELF! Does Paul intend to follow in his father's footsteps in this area? I am curious...

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

P. Paul has every intention to be accountable. He has elders that are not yes men and they have proven it already. He is also accountable to Pastor Reed, Pastor Kelley and Pastor Martel. They are friends that are very doctrinal and not sentimental. Anyone who knows them, knows that.

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

"Boss" you said it yourself, that your questions should be asked of the congregation themselves. We don't need your suggestions posted on the Internet. Whether or not Pastor Paul is qualified to be or it is to early for him to be a Pastor is something none of us need to discuss with you, since you obviously don't go to church in Havre De Grace.
It amazes me how people from other churches or states can have such an opinion on what goes on in someone elses church. And I don't mean GGWO affiliates.
Maybe we should all start digging into the lives of all Pastors. Let's start with yours "Boss".
Tell you what, you stay out of my church, I'll stay out of yours.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

68.......you may be forgetting that a church is in some way a public place. Your church, GGWO, has developed a very bad reputation. Why? because of its corrupt practices. Because of its many cast offs......I am one of them. Boss has a friend there, someone he would like to be closer to then he is now. He has discovered thta some very basic principles of Christian behavior have been seriously violated. And, he cares about his firend. He cares about you.

The people of GGWO need to hear voices that tell the truth.......you haven't heard much inside. God is using voices from outside to speak to you.

No one likes to have their privacy trampled and I'm all for respecting ones right to choose what they believe and where they live, work and go to church, but anytime any ministry tramples on her people the way GGWO has, someone has to speak up. I regret that it took me so long to have the courage to say what I've been saying on factnet all these months.

It doesn't take that much digging to find the truth about GG.......perhaps some of the really hidden stuff will require that but now, thanks to people not rying to save their own lives, there are places now where one can easily find the info they need on this ministry.

Churches are indeed public places......we invite people in.....we want them to join us in worship. We want them to get to know our God......its not an exclusive club......or maybe it is to some.

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

The issues you raise are with the church in Baltimore, and are the very reasons my family no longer attend. Pastor Paul is doing his best to move on, and develop a work that is different from GGWO. He is well aware of the mistakes of the past. I just don't think he deserves more interegation. He has publicly spoken of who he will be accountable to, and that should settle the issue.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Thanks for the advice, 68!

I won't be attending your church nor would I recommend it to anyone because of my concerns about accountability, delegated authority, etc. In a larger sense, I don't want to EVER see another situation like GGWO occur. I realize that it is inevitable, but I really don't want to see one other person abused by someone like Carl H. Stevens. Not one! It doesn't matter if it's my church or not. If it's wrong, it's wrong. My friend in GGWO hasn't said that she wants to go to Aberdeen, but I will definitely advise her NOT to go there based on my concerns if she says she wants to go there.

In my opinion, and we all know about opinions, there is far too much focus on the MAN, his PERSONALITY, his FEELINGS, etc.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Thanks, Lee. You are another voice of calm reason.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

I never said I agreed with Carl H. Stevens or his abusive use of delegated authority.
That is why I no longer attend in Baltimore.
But you are to quick to jump on P Paul, that he would be a clone of his father. I encourage you to pray for the work in Aberdeen, it is truly a refreshing change from the system of bondage at GGWO on Moravia Park Drive.

PS..meant no disrespect

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

Again, Boss, it is sad that you would have an opinion about something or someone that you do not know and have not gone to talk to. Pastor Paul has said he does not want anything to be centered around him, nor does he want any adulation. He lifts up Christ alone in every message. No one has talked about his personality or feelings here. He wants a completely different system. One that is accountable and also more people oriented. He said he needs to learn so much with us as we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. So, we worship Christ alone and serve Him . I don't think that makes us bad. Talk about someone not wanting this to happen again, I think Pastor Paul understands that thoroughly after all he and many of us have gone through.

[Anonymous (64.12.113.43)]

70.17 - When was your congregational meeting held and who was elected as elders?

[Anonymous (70.17.208.100)]

Our first congregational meeting was held on Easter. The elders are : Pastor Paul Stevens, Pastor Mark Schollaert, Sam Balzanna, Dave Coon, Stew Franklin and Paul Johnson. Gotta run. God bless !!

[Dave (4.156.84.198)]

Here is my understanding on "verticals"

If Pastor Carl Stevens had a church that had 10 members,
and Pastor Carl Stevens and each of his 10 members each had their own personal relationship to Jesus,
both Pastor Carl Stevens and each of his ten followers have their own verticals to Jesus.

However another possibility is that only Pastor Carl Stevens has a personal relationship with Jesus,
and that his ten followers only know Jesus through Pastor Carl Stevens.

In that case only Pastor Carl Stevens would have a vertical to Jesus,
and his ten followers by definition, are following him,
and do not have their own verticals to Jesus.

In Lenox Pastor Carl Stevens said that it was safe to follow a man,
if that man was following "Jesus" perfectly.

Oviously Pastor Carl Stevens believed it was safe to follow him,
because he believed that he was following Jesus "perfectly"

PASTOR CARL STEVENS MADE AN AMAZING STATEMENT ON "THE GRACE HOUR"
IN THE LATE 1980's OR IN THE EARLY 1990'S'

PASTOR CARL STEVENS SAID;

"I DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW PASTOR STEVENS"

Dave

[Anonymous (64.12.113.17)]

70, how long of a term do your elders serve?

[Anonymous (70.16.4.96)]

To Boss

Many of us know your concern for your friend in Baltimore Church. However, you have gone too far with your comments about Pastor Paul and I for one and more than sick to death of hearing them.

In plain English shut your "F"--'ing" Mouth.

You ask far too much and judge someone which is not your right, its Gods. So, *******, tell me where you go to church so I can pull your pastor's underpanties down and explose his sins and see how you like it. Ooh did that get your goat?

GOOD I HOPE SO. NOW THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT.

Others have told you many times what Paul's position is, and you have been challenged to drive up there yourself. Your lame excuses are old, Boss. Go face the man himself and ask your smart ass questions of him. You're just a lame jerk who has nothing to do but push your Archie Bunker like thoughts on here. Sounds like you are Carl Stevens the 2nd...you want your way and no other, you are the only one who is right...etc.

Unless you go to Aberdeen yourself and talk to Paul I would suggest you leave him alone. He owes you nothing except a good ass kicking.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Paul has left himself open to any and all questions as a public leader. He would most likely be glad to answer them. I know he has always answered mine. If he does read this board he knows my view on his situation. If indeed he actually attended a college and recieved his BA, terrific, good for him. If he indeed is getting counseling, good for him, bravo, and I mean that with my whole heart. I consider Paul a friend and only want the best for him.

It isn't unusual for anyone to look at this situation and have doubts and questions. Paul not only has been a member of GGWO forever, he also is Carl's son. This puts him in a delicate, difficult and unhealthy situation. The stresses must be tremendous.

It is my prayer that Sean and Melody, Bruce or Pam could reach out to him at some point to make the situation less isolating for him.

I still wish it had been possible for him to take a sabittical to regroup...but if he has chosen not to, fine.

Anon 70, there will be many and more besides that will question, be suspicious etc for some time to come of Paul's church, this is to be expected. I am sure Paul expected and accepts it. Paul would not appreciate your langage or manners here.

I do believe, Boss, it might not be a bad idea to seek Paul out to talk to about your concernes. I have known him for years and know he would do his best to be open and honest with you. He is not like Carl, in that he can be approached, is rather a likable guy and having been through so much of late, might be willing to address your fears about your friend. If you meet him half way I believe Paul would do his best to answer your questions....but remember, everyone....Paul is a human being, a Christian, and he has fallen from grace as many times as any one of us has. His situation, being brought up by a man like Carl makes the history of his life a heave burden. We can cut him a break AND hold his feet to the fire at the same time.

I say go for it Boss. Tell him Roberta sent you...And anon 70, far be it for anyone to rebuke you...however gently...but please stop with the language thing? I really think we can at least try to discuss this stuff with a little decorum? I know I am trying. I appreciate your loyalty to Paul, but he doesn't require it, nor do I th9ink he would like the angry response. Not the Paul I know anyway.

[Anonymous (63.27.70.163)]

The Paul I knew appeared fearful of people and RAN out that door after every service to avoid talking to people. His sermons were redundant and at time punitive. Furthermore, WHERE were these men who Paul is accountable to when he needed this most? I am VERY suspicious of his line-up and believe it would behove him to bring in an outside third party also. One who can be a voice of reason during this VERY difficult period of transition for all. Otherwise, I'm afraid his congregants will jump from the frying pan to the fire. Did not Paul's own father CLAIM to not like accolades as well? Be careful kiddies, you'ver just come out of YEARS of emotional and spiritual so this may feel VERY comfortable to you, as bad as it may be for you.

[Anonymous (63.27.70.163)]

Emotional and Spiritual abuse that is...so PLEASE bring in an objective theologian to oversee this transition. One who has NEVER been involved with GGWO but is SOUND doctrinally to prevent further abuses.

[Anonymous (67.243.139.215)]

70, while I am sincerely sorry for making you angry, this VERY NIGHT the subject of Aberdeen and Pastor Paul came up when my beautiful friend said she was leaving GGWO. She said a sizable group had left GGWO to to Paul's church. She has doubts about Paul's church as well, mainly because he's Carl's son, but she also has good friends that now go there.

So I tell you what. I will ask him myself the very questions I have posed here. Because you're absolutely right, I don't know for sure.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (63.27.0.121)]

Boss, Hopefully your beautiful friend is going to church to learn about Jesus Christ and not to be with her friends. Keep praying for her buddy and thanks for your support for the mess many of we survivors have faced. It sounds like you're in love with this girl Boss! What a wonderful and cherishing husband you will make if this is true. Have a great day and thanks again for caring about us.

63

[Anonymous (67.243.241.54)]

Boss Martian is alluding to accountabilty.
What is wrong with that when it comes to Pastors?

Even the wacky Richard M. Nixon had the sense to step down for the good of the people and let healing begin for the nation.
Paul does not have that sense or even integrity to do so. He should step away from the pulpit as a sign of true humility. It would speak volumes if he did. Paul however is in denial still. He thinks that acting humble with teary eyed sermons are the "fruits of repentance"
Like the Old Testament rulers who refused to come clean and confront their sin readily, they were haunted the rest of their lives as scandal and rumors of scandal followed them.
Anon 70.16 has always made excuses for P.Paul.

[Anonymous (63.27.6.119)]

Anon. 70.16 IS P. Paul!

[Anonymous (69.139.232.85)]

Yeah right 63...I thought it was 4.155

Make up your mind...sounds like you might be John Kerry

[Hodeuon (68.50.121.170)]

70.16.4.96 and others,

I appreciate that you support your pastor. It certainly seems to me that Paul Stevens got a raw deal in Baltimore, and it’s good that you and others want to protect a brother from further persecution.

However, please take a look at this from Boss Martian’s perspective for just a minute.

1) Paul Stevens has pastors Reed, Kelley, and Martel keeping him accountable. I applaud him for taking this step. But these men, too, are products of Greater Grace. They were all taught church organization and pastoral authority by TBS/GG, right? Isn’t it possible that all of them could get blindsided together on an issue of church leadership? I’m not questioning their ethics; it’s simply a question of whether they have relearned correctly what they were taught wrongly at TBS/GG.

2) Finished Work Ministries and Greater Grace do not exist in a vacuum. There are other believers and other churches in the Baltimore area. I want to believe your assertion that Paul Stevens is a changed man. I really do. I’m a sucker...I mean, an optimist. But what I perceive is that there was no accountability AND no mercy. A very serious sin was not taken seriously by Greater Grace. We can’t tell from the outside if it was taken seriously by Paul himself or not. Several people have reported on Factnet that he is a changed man. Outstanding! It would have been right for him to step back from ministry for a period and examine himself. Please understand that I am not criticizing Paul alone for this. It was incredibly foolish of the rest of Greater Grace’s leadership to let Paul continue on in ministry uninterrupted. It was not merciful to Paul, first of all, who could have used some time to let God renew his mind and strengthen him in this area. It was unfair to those who attend Greater Grace, to force Paul to continue ministering to them when he needed to be ministered to himself. Just considering the emotional turmoil he had to be feeling himself, there’s no way that he was able to give others his best efforts in ministry. And it was unfair to other believers and other churches in the area. It undercuts what our pastors are teaching us – that sin has consequences, that grace is not cheap. We hear preached, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” (Rom 6:1-2) but then we see a church where this was apparently not taken seriously. Other believers need to see that sin is not swept under the rug.

3) We also need to consider how the world will view this. There are unbelievers who are delighted any time they are able to cry, “Hypocrite!” so that they won’t have to seriously consider Jesus. Some have asked (not you, 70, I don’t think), “How can you force a man of God out of ministry even for a time? The blood of those who don’t get saved as a result is on your head!” I ask, what of those who do not get saved because they see hypocrisy in the Church? Unbelievers do not care that Finished Work Ministries is different than Greater Grace World Outreach is different than First Baptist is different from the Catholic Church. They see men who claim to speak for God saying one thing, doing another, and not answering for it. Other churches’ and other pastors’ credibility will suffer when this discussion reaches unbelievers. The proper issue was not “people won’t get saved if Paul isn’t able to preach to them” but “since Paul needs some time, both for accountability and for mercy, then who will step and preach to those unsaved people that he otherwise would have?”

4) As I said, I want to believe that Paul has changed, and the Finished Work Ministries is different than Greater Grace. But I see some things that concern me.

First, “Finished Work”... How thoroughly has Paul fixed the theological problems that allow the unhealthy spiritual atmosphere to exist at Greater Grace? Since he’s using a Greater Grace-specific term as the name of the new church, I think this is a valid question. If I may say so, GG doesn’t seem to stress believers’ ongoing sanctification very much. None of us are done being conformed to Christ, and it might be time to make that clear. I do recognize that people don’t leave a cult-like church all at once. Nobody snaps to instant orthodoxy when they walk out the door. So maybe down the line, Paul will realize that another name might be better.

Second, I see that several booklets by Paul Stevens are still able to be ordered from Greater Grace. Do FWM and GG hold those teachings in common? Does Paul stand by his previous writings? In particular, it seems...odd...that GGWO continues to stock “Relationships Made by God” on marriage.

Third, 70.16.4.96, the way you worded your defense of Paul is reminiscent of how more than a few loyalists defended GGWO in the earlier days of Factnet. I know you’re frustrated, but that approach can lead people to wonder if FWM is just a church split rather than a reform movement. One thing that none of us want to see is GGWO shatter into little fragments each led by a different faction of the current leaders. How those at Finished Work Ministries treat fellow dissidents will strongly influence how Factnet as a whole views FWM. It’s kind of like the church in Eastern Europe in ’89. There were those who left for the West as soon as they could, and others who stayed behind and transformed the hidden, persecuted church to a free & public church. Sometimes those who left viewed those who stayed behind with suspicion, thinking they compromised with what was left of “the system”. Those who stayed behind sometimes viewed those who left as bailing out when things got tough. Neither mistake needs to be made here; there are already more than enough challenges for all of us.

I hope that believers in Maryland are going to be able to look at Finished Work Ministries and say, “They’re orthodox Christians. They broke away from a cult-like group, but they got rid of all that stuff.” But it’s going to take time. I don’t think we should jump to conclusions in either direction.

Hodeuon

[Anonymous (67.243.241.110)]

Hodeuon,
A lot of food for thought and good points.
Thanks

[Anon Brief (64.12.113.186)]

Well said, Hodeuon. You clearly articulated the concerns that many of us have.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

Um, someone has a TM problem:

http://www.athensplus.com/churches/finished.htm

[Anonymous (68.83.101.114)]

When I first met Pastor Paul years ago, I felt there was something very different about him. Something different than his father or his brother. I felt even back then, he was a man conflicted about goings on within GGWO. I am glad that God has reached down to him and helped him to move on, as painful as it may be. But Jesus did tell His disciples to leave everything, including family, to follow HIM.
I think we should all keep Pastor Paul in our prayers that God would continue to work in both his life and his new ministry work for the Lord.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hodeuon,

Thank you for articulating the situation so well with kindness and God's nature.

What burdens me the most is the Paul story is just one story of one leader in GGWO. The devastating truth is we must multiple this story a hundredfold. This is NOT one isolated story of abuse of power. It instead is a picture of what has been repeated habitually in the leadership of GGWO. One must consider this type of abuse from shepherds of the flock is the underlying operation within GG's leadership. The Alan Lang story is the norm. It reflects how Carl Stevens operates, it reflects the destruction of a family to protect Carl and company. It reflects the mind-set of the leaders. Sadly, Paul was given an epiphany of the wrongdoing and is in the process of exiting and all his sins are publicly known. he is actually in a far better place than most of the leaders that remain at GGWO and their behavior covered up. I am not making excuses for Paul and if you talked to him directly you find he is not making excuses either. His understanding and heartful shame is as real as anyone I have seen who leaves GGWO and finally "gets it." What I am pointing out is the depth and immensity of the problem within GGWO. Anyone who has read Alan's story is horrified but what is more horrifying is that kind of devastation of the sacred family has occurred on thousands. It is impossible to wrap one's mind around that kind of evil on so many. AND THE LIE CONTINUES! If you don't believe me, read the Delaware threads. It is a microcosm of Baltimore. THE ABUSE NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

From the beginning of recorder history millions upon millions of adults have had to make a clean break and redefine their lives, or career or relationships due to a crisis with their physical health, their living space called home (hurricanes, floods, wars,etc.),
end of a relationship, loss of employment etc.

It happened to many of our parents or grandparents upon their passage through Ellis Island, New York.

As you pick up the newspaper it is happening right in front of us every day.

Pastor Paul, like many pastors cannot for the life of himself make a clean break from GGWO.
To acknowledge some credit he has tried somewhat.
He still holds on to whatever perks are there.
Among them was his high salary, expense account,
housing, car, his position on grace hour, his titles at the School, his ggwo related speaking engagements. Now his thinly vieled attempt to continue on in the family business by starting his own church.

Paul grew up in this enviroment. He embraced it like many of us once had. He has held on a little longer beacuse of all the comforts and perks provided to him throughout the years.

The one who attempts to save his life will lose it, but the one who loses his life for my sake will find it, Jesus said.

It is painfully obvious that Paul should step down from preaching to others or counseling on relationships until he can fully come to terms with everything he has been involved in here.
It will give him a greater credibility if he ever does. None of us are indispensible. Someone mentioned President Nixon a few posts back. President Nixon also had an assistant who became born again Christian after he left the Presidents service and came to terms with his culpabilty in the Watergate conspiracy. His name is Charles Colson, he just so happens turned 72 today. his years since his stepping down from his previous position of authority have been more effective and blessed than before he found the courage to do so as he himself has said.

Paul needs our prayers yes, but he also needs to make the hard decision that many younger and older adults have made before him often more than once in a lifetime.

Compassion for Paul is in order, just not the Greater Grace kind that winks at the evil of their pastors or pardons it without demanding anything in return. Compassion along with reality check that life is going to be hard for awhile after leaving Greater Grace and its sentiments.
Many of us have been there.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

.

[Anonymous (4.139.90.146)]

Hey, 216, you really do not know everything that you are talking about. Paul never had an expense account, car and house taken care of and has never cared about titles. I know him and the finance office very well and that simply is not true. He has made himself accountable, but the Bible never says anywhere that he should stop preaching if he feels he is called to do so. He knows his guilt and has made things right, the best he knows how. No doubt, he has to be retaught things from an objective viewpoint. But, he is seeking that.

[Anonymous (67.243.240.233)]

Actually Paul always deeply resented others not addressing him as "Pastor" unless they were very close to him for some reason.
In a casual setting at a public restruaunt in my precence he made it a point to remind a woman that he wanted to be called "Pastor" Paul in a very annoyed tone embarrassing her.This lady made the mistake of thinking that all of Paul's familiarity with her exempted her from using his title. Not so!
Maybe Anon 4.139 doesn't know Paul as much as they want to pretend, or defend him.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

I am interested 139, in your connection to the finance office.

[Anonymous (63.27.13.148)]

67.243,

You crack me up, telling a story about how Pastor Paul HATES to be called Paul and you call him that throughout your post! What gives?

Also 216 P. Paul is NOT like the rest of us because by walking away from GGWO means walking away from his dad, brother and sister! Thank God he MAY still have Melody and Bruce's affections BUT maybe not since they left GGWO years ago there may be some bad blood so do us all a favor and quit "spiritually rationalizing" Paul's situation...you have NO IDEA what he may feeling and experiencing right now so PLEASE don't speak as if you've got all the answers!

[Anonymous (4.139.30.151)]

hey, 67, nice try with the story about the restaurant. Let the woman speak for herself because I know Paul and I know he could care less about the title crap. You just do not like the man and now you have to lie to support your feelings.

[Anonymous (68.33.70.187)]

4.139,
I AGREE... HE IS THE LAST PERSON TO GIVE A HOOT ABOUT BEING CALLED "PASTOR"

[Anonymous (63.27.85.216)]

Actually I never envisioned the man taking over his dad's "dynasty"...He always appeared uncomfortable relating to people and that fake crying was the worst!

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Thanks, Hodeuon and 216.183.184.253 for saying what I feel in a more articulate way.

Again, I'm an outsider looking in (but believe me, my life has been touched HARD and BAD by this ministry), but it seems that the big goal is to be a pastor at all costs. I don't understand it.

I think the Richard Nixon analogy was a good one. I look back on the Nixon era and although he made some SERIOUS mistakes, in his heart he ultimately wanted to do the right thing, at least at the end. When he was caught, he didn't take the attitude of "I must remain President at all costs" but the attitude of "what is best for this country". One attitude reflects personal glory, the other, the welfare of the many.

I definitely was against most of the things that Richard Nixon advocated as President, but when I recently saw a video of his resignation speech, I saw a man of character and a man worthy of respect. He "rogered up" and took responsibility for his actions. He asked for forgiveness.

Many, many people that opposed him, even hated him during his political career forgave him. He was worthy of forgiveness.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (70.17.194.185)]

they are wishy washy!