Lady Reverend Doctor asks the Bishop a Question

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">What difference does this make to this board?

Ephes. 4:14 (ESV)
...so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.</FONT>

The <FONT COLOR="ff0000"><U>Rev. Dr. Kathleen</U></FONT> from Michigan writes:
"Overcoming the widespread Christian belief that <U>"Jesus died for my sins"</U> seems an insurmountable challenge! Preachers, liturgical rites, hymns and religious education curricula continue to reinforce "atonement theology/theories." Would you do a series on "atonement theology/theories"; their origins, rationale, continued justification, etc.? Personally and pastorally, "atonement" thinking creates a mire of destructive results and I, for one, would well appreciate your cogent analysis of how we might best approach this."

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Dear Kathleen,

Thank you for your letter and its challenge. There is no doubt that atonement/sacrifice theology constitutes a deep burden that weighs down the Christian faith today. I work on this subject constantly. It is a major theme in two of my books, Why Christianity Must Change or Die and A New Christianity for a New World. I am still engaged in this study as I begin to work on a new book scheduled for publication in 2007 and tentatively entitled, Jesus for the Non-Religious.

Atonement theology, however, involves far more than a salvation doctrine. It brings into question the theistic understanding of God and even the morality of God. This theology assumes that God is an external Being who invades the world to heal the fallen creation. It also assumes that this God enters this fallen world in the person of the Son to pay the price of human evil on the cross. It was the central theme in Mel Gibson's motion picture; "The Passion of the Christ" which might have been dramatically compelling but it represented a barbaric, sado-masochistic, badly dated and terribly distorted biblical and theological perspective.

All atonement theories root in a sense of human alienation and with it a sense of human powerlessness. "Without Thee we can do nothing good!" So we develop legends about the God who does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. For Christianity, I am convinced that our basic atonement theology finds its taproot not in the story of the cross but in the liturgy of the synagogue, especially Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement. In the Yom Kippur liturgy an innocent lamb was slain and the people were symbolically cleansed by the saving blood of this sacrificed Lamb of God. Jesus was similarly portrayed as the new Lamb of God. As we Christians tell the story of Jesus' dying for our sins in doctrine, hymns and liturgy, we quite unknowingly turn God into an ogre, a deity who practices child sacrifice and a guilt-producing figure, who tells us that our sinfulness is the cause of the death of Jesus. God did it to him instead of to us who deserved it. Somehow that is supposed to make it both antiseptic and worthwhile. It doesn't. I think we can and must break the power of these images. Just the fact that you are sensitive to it and offended by it is a start.

Consciousness is rising on this issue all over the Church, and as it does, Christianity will either change or die. There is no alternative. I vote for change, obviously you do too.

-- John Shelby Spong</FONT>

[Zut (207.156.7.90)]

Ooh, barbaric and sadomasochistic! Sounds like this belongs on "Oblique Angles 2."

[KDuhamel (24.128.118.124)]

Zut (pronounced with a long or a short "u"?):

You wouldn't be implying that I don't hold to the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, would you? I'm not sure if that's what you really think or you'd like merely to characterize me that way. If the former, you haven't been paying attention; if the latter, you are dishonest.

-Karen

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

In a perfect world, the "u" would have an umlaut over it. (lol)

Here comes Jim to indentify who's the best Christian.

Boss Martian

[KDuhamel (24.128.118.124)]

And would the umlaut render the "u" as an "oo" sound, Boss? Forgive my ignorance, I studied Spanish and French in high school and college.

-Karen

[Anonymous (162.111.136.15)]

Karen,
Although Boss is the authority of all things Martian.....matters of Christianity and omlauts should be submitted to Jim so that he can best tell us what a "real" Christian would think.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Thanks for telling me what I would and would not think. If you think that you agree with the Lady Rev. Dr. and the Bishop--above then say so, if not say so. I don't agree that anyone who holds that "atonement theology is what is killing Christianity" is even close to being a Christian since the very word Christian implies a trust in the accomplished work of Christ on the Cross for sin's penalty and justification. I don't think any "Christian" possibly could agree with them, but then silly me. As for umlauts, don't they go in exotic salads?

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

My umlaut reference was mainly to the use of the umlaut by heavy metal bands in their names to the point of being a cliche/joke. I think it would then be pronounced "zoot" as you guessed.

Some friends and I once formed a "one shot" band to play at a party. We were brainstorming for a funny name over the course of a few days and, while at the drive thru at a KFC, we looked at the menu and had the epiphany of naming the band "Slaw". Of course, we decided that the "a" would have an umlaut over it. My neighbor at the time was an intern from Germany and when he saw the band name he remarked (in a heavy Deutsch accent) "In German, you would pronounce that as 'slave', which is MUCH cooler". During our one performance, we kept hearing a German voice yelling "Slave RULES!!!!". Guess you had to be there........

Boss Martian

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

How predictable of you Boss, to jump in and defend the author of the only "Christian" book you've read. Please do expound the doctrine of the atonement for us correctly. Note my limited commentary above, which is mostly scripture. Of course you have all become mind readers now.

[KDuhamel (24.128.118.124)]

So, Jim, what was your point? I don't think anyone on FactNet who has identified him/herself as a Christian has refuted the church's traditional teachings regarding the atonement. Was this just a fishing expedition?

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together and give a big Factnet welcome to the Hardest Working Man in Christendom, Mr. Please Please, the Godfather of Fundamentalism, MISTAH JIM FAUCETT!!!! (please place umlaut as appropriate).

Jimbo, I'm not defending Spong. Until you posted this thread, I hadn't even thought about the man. It is absolutely of zero use with you, anyway, and my post was definitely not intended to defend, only to point out that "here comes SUPER FUNDAMENTALIST!"

I posted because you have gotten bored, or gotten all your chores done, or SOMETHING and just had to come on here and post something that is intended to show your superior grasp of what it means to be a Christian. That's all.

You don't need any explanation of my heretical views of Christianity because a) anything I say will be labeled by you as heresy and b) your views on Christianity are so set in stone that Christ Himself couldn't change your mind if He showed up in your kitchen. All you have done is create an opportunity to show off how much commentary you've read over the years and how many Scriptures you can quote. Nothing more, nothing less.

Any attempt at discussion with you results in a bunch of ranting on your part and a brilliant display of your abilities to use bold and red font. And I gotta admit, your command of formatting skills leaves me breathless, and well, all tingly inside. Props to you, my beligerent brotha!

I'm just happier than a pig in poop that the reign of Carl and the Gang is visibly coming to an end.

Let me drop some science on you: I'm a believer, but my dispute with Carl and Co. is on a purely secular level. His time must end. Period. Abuse is abuse, regardless of the means of justification. Christian, communist, or fascist abuse, whatever the creed used, it's all abuse, pure and simple.

Bottom line, Mistah Jim, I don't need you or your doctrine to accomplish the things I want to do, just as you don't need me. All you're interested in is showing how you're the SUPER CHRISTIAN, superior to all in knowledge and doctrine.

Now, do that trick where the veins pop out on your forehead while you point at me and yell "SEE, SEE, I TOLD YOU! BOSS MARTIAN IS A SECULAR HUMANIST HERETIC WHO CAN'T FIND HIS REAR END WITH A SEARCHLIGHT AND BOTH HANDS!!!!" I think you're sexy when you do that!

Boss Martian
Rock over London,
Rock on Chicago,
Wheaties, Breakfast of Champions

[Anonymous (205.188.116.73)]

Jim,

You asked "What difference does this make to this board?

I don't understand the intent behind the question?

The posted dialogue simply is not Christianity.

Why would you think any of us would consider it to be? Or do I not understand your intent?

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

???????????Jim?????are you all right?????are you tired????sad?????mad??????overwrought???????can I send you a cannoli??????
Really, Jim, what were you thinking?????????what ARE you thinking??????

I'm so tired, I had to reread it a few times.......all I can say to you Jim is, take it from Red Sox nation.....Keep the Faith! It works!!! Don't get yourself all in a tizzy! I don't get that move at all......

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

I was already a born again believer when I went off to the cult called The Bible Speaks (TBS). I left TBS as I began to see that there was a bunch of phony things going on that had nothing to do with Jesus Christ and his precious message of salvation. I realized that I had been duped. However, I take full responsibility for making the choice to be duped. I wish I could say that I got some professional Christian help from cult experts but I dealt with my cult experience through excessive alcohol intake. It took me about eight years to get back on track with my personal walk with Jesus. I don’t blame TBS for my problem with alcohol, I just think it made me more susceptible to joining a cult. I sort of wish that there was something like Factnet at the time so I would have known there were others going through similar experiences.

I was thinking that maybe Jim Faucett’s story is different. Maybe, Jim as a ‘pretend pastor’ in TBS was told to leave because when he did his sinning TBS wasn’t willing to cover it up. He then has devoted his life to being a better Bible beater than all the leaders put together at TBS/GGWO. Maybe, there are delusions of grandeur that the ‘elders’ at TBS/GGWO will give Jim a buzz and ask him to help them get back on track. The meanness and superiority using God’s word are the same techniques used by TBS/GGWO leadership. I do not see the point of using the Bible to be mean to folks who are trying to work their way through leaving this awful cult.

So, 'elders' of TBS/GGWO if you are indeed reading Factnet and you revere God’s Word so much, please give Jim a buzz for some help. That will help others to continue to use this great informational tool called Factnet to show TBS/GGWO as the cult it truly is.

I am willing to bet the leaders of TBS/GGWO are terribly panicked because their meal ticket is running out. You aren’t going to find another place where people are going to give you so much money and praise for every foolish word you utter again. That is of course, unless you sign up at another cult, you can use 'expert at mind control' as a bullet statement on your resume.

It is sad to read the posts of people who actually believe GGWO can make a turn around to become a healthy church. GGWO was built on deception using God’s word and Jesus’ message of salvation to take advantage of people. The folks who are leaders can’t just walk away and start up elsewhere they need to repent and get help for themselves. If you study the history of this organization you will see repeats of the same things over and over from the early days in Wiscassett, ME until now.

Those of you who have just left or are leaving get as far away as possible from this group and any of these leaders. Get yourselves some professional Christian help from people with no affiliation with GGWO.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

My, my, my. It doesn't take much around here to stir up the ants. I got the good Bishop's newsletter today and thought it was interesting, so I posted it. Along with a scripture and a brief sentence. In truth, the post is about a Christianity without the real Christ, but yet another one we make up in our heads.

In my humble opinion, one of the biggest problems in American Christianity of the eeeevanjellycal variety especially--is that they are just not happy with the God of Scripture and want to bring him up to date or in line with the current therapy. So we follow foolishly our liberal friends. Gotta go watch the Astros. Bye and have fun.

Keep on thinkin'. I know it's tough but try real hard.

[Zut (207.156.7.90)]

It's Zut as in:

zut
Interjection

(a) (Infml) damn!, shucks!, drat! (old-fashioned), darn! (old-fashioned), fash! (old-fashioned); ~ alors! be quiet!

or it could be Zut as in:

Bad, bad Zut!