Telling the truth

[Anonymous (24.88.34.73)]

I think in a matter of days the board here will pretty muh be a click of the following people:

Lee, Roberta, Cara, Maria T, Lee, and a handful of others.

There will be so mcuh stuff on the defense mechanism that frankly nobody who comes here will want to deal with it.

I can promise you that if I never was here before, and what I see coming will be so bad that frankly you folks will be begging me not to enourage people to post. You will be telling others to go somewhere else.

In days you will wish that you had never said that you didn't want a moderated board. You will be begging for a moderated board.

And it will be about the subject matters you hold dear. But it will not be so positive for those who have lined up to attack people.

I can type fast enough, and hit control c, control v faster than even MARIA T.

I wish that she could have been kinder to many people and reconsider that it would have been a nice way to stop such a huge waste of time and energy.

The truth will be very easy to test, and I will do so with quotes from those who posted here.

So by your own words we will examine what your spirit was.

Take Care,

Neil

neil@1works.net

[Anonymous (151.196.137.80)]

Go ahead and play God here Neil. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Anon 68...do something we want you to do....stop screwing up the board and go pray

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

let as many servants as are under the yoke count thier own masters worthy of all honor that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

My friends are fond of saying that my last words on this earth will be
something akin to, "hey y'all, hold my beer and watch this!" Well, I have
outdone myself once again. No doubt you will see this true story chronicled
in a LifeTime movie in the near future. Here goes.

Last weekend I spied something at Larry's Pistol and Pawn that tickled my
fancy. (Note: Keep in mind that my "fancy" is easily tickled.) I had gone
into the Star Market to pick up some milk yesterday and I bought a super
ball in the checkout line--50 cents. What a bargain! It tickled my
fancy--still does That thing bounces soooooo high, and it has provided me
with hours of entertainment. It just doesn't get any better than that, now
does it? I'm so easily distracted. That dang super ball is so much fun.

So what were we talking about? Oh yeah, I bought something really cool at
Larry's Pistol and Pawn last Saturday. The occasion was my 50th birthday and
I was looking for a little something extra cool. What I came across was a
100,000 volt, pocket/purse sized Tazer gun with a clip.

For those of you who are not familiar with this product, it is a
less-than-lethal stun gun with two metal prongs designed to incapacitate an
assailant with a shock of high voltage, low amperage electricity while you
flee to safety. The effects are supposed to be short lived, with no
long-term adverse affect on your assailant, but allowing you adequate time
to retreat to safety. You simply jab the prongs into your 250 lb. tattooed
assailant, push the button, and it will render him a slobbering, goggle
eyed, muscle twitching, whimpering, pencil neck geek. If you've never seen
one of these things in action, then you're truly missing out--way too cool!

Long story short, I bought the device and brought it home. I loaded two
triple-a batteries in the darn thing and pushed the button. Nothing! I was
so disappointed. Upon reading the directions (we don't need no stinkin'
directions), I found much to my chagrin that this particular model would not
create an arch between the prongs. How disappointing! I do love fire for
effect. I learned that if I pushed the button, however, and pressed it
against a metal surface that I'd get the blue arch of electricity darting
back and forth between the prongs that I was so looking forward to. I did
so. Awesome!!! Sparks, a blue arch of electricity, and a loud pop!!!
Yipeeeeee . . . I'm easily amused.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif~

Okay, so I was home alone with this new toy, thinking to myself that it
couldn't be all that bad with only two triple-a batteries, etc., etc. There
I sat in my recliner, my dog Molly looking on intently (trusting little
soul), reading the directions (that would be me, not Molly), and thinking
that I really needed to try this thing out on a flesh and blood target. I
must admit I thought about zapping Molly for a fraction of a second and
thought better of it. She is such a sweet doggy, after all. But, if I was
going to use this thing to protect myself against a mugger, I did want some
assurance that it would work as advertised. Am I wrong? Was I wrong to
think that? Seemed reasonable to me at the time So, there I sat in a pair of
shorts and a tank top with my reading glasses perched delicately on the
bridge of my nose, directions in one hand, Tazer in another. The directions
said that a one-second burst would shock and disorient your assailant; a
two-second burst was supposed to cause muscle spasms and a loss of bodily
control; a three-second burst would purportedly make your assailant flop on
the ground like a fish out of water. All the while I'm looking at this
little device (measuring about 5" long, less than 3/4 inch in circumference,
pretty cute really, and loaded with two itsy, bitsy triple-a batteries)
thinking to myself, "no bloody way!" Bloody way--trust me, but I'm getting
ahead of myself.

What happened next is almost beyond description, but I'll do my best. Those
of you who know me well have got a pretty good idea of what followed. I'm
sitting there alone, Molly looking on with her ZZZ head cocked to one side
as to say, "don't do it daddy," reasoning that a one-second burst from such
a tiny lil' ole thing couldn't hurt all that bad (sound, rational thinking
under the circumstances, wouldn't you agree?). I decided to give myself a
one-second burst just for the hell of it. (Note: You know, a bad decision is
like hindsight--always twenty-twenty. It is so obvious that it was a bad
decision after the fact, even though it seemed so right at the time. Don't
ya hate that?) I touched the prongs to my naked thigh, pushed the button,
and Holy ****! DAMN!!!

I'm pretty sure that Jessie Ventura ran in through the front door, picked me
up out of that recliner, then body slammed me on the carpet over and over
again. I vaguely recall waking up on my side in the fetal position, nipples
on fire, testicles nowhere to be found, soaking wet, with my left arm tucked
under my body in the oddest position. Molly was standing over me making
whimpering sounds I had never heard before, licking my face, undoubtedly
thinking to herself, "do it again daddy, do it again!" (Note: If you ever
feel compelled to mug yourself with a Tazer, one note of caution. There is
no such thing as a one-second burst when you zap yourself. You're not going
to let go of that thing until it is dislodged from your hand by a violent
thrashing about on the floor. Then, if you're lucky, you won't dislodge one
of the prongs 1/4" deep in your thigh like yours truly.)

SON-OF-A-BITCH that hurt! A minute or so later (I can't be sure, as time was
a relative thing at this point), I collected my wits (what little I had
left), sat up and surveyed the landscape. My reading glasses were on the
mantel of the fireplace. How did they get there??? My triceps, right thigh
and both nipples were still twitching. My face felt like it had been shot up
with Novocain, as my bottom lip weighed 88 lbs. +/- an ounce or two, I'm
pretty sure. By the way, has anyone seen my testicles?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

The devil went up to Newark
he was looking for a soul to steal
he was in a bind and way behind
so he was willing to make a deal
he came accross a man on a corner lot
who was looking for a steal
he said man I bet you didn't know it
but i'm a con artist too and if you care
to take a dare I bet a multi million dollar property
against your soul that says i'm better than you.

The man said my names Jeff and i'll take your bet
your gonna regret cause i'm the best theres ever been.

Lie upon lie scam upon scam they went as Jeff was getting old
he said give me my land and all the money with people following blindly and you can have my soul
just give it to me now, so no more working for the lord
just lie cheat and steal.got my school got my church and
people just keep comming in following the leader. Now so deep can't get out
Where is your soul?

[Anonymous (67.19.163.20)]

Oh my gosh 205, that tazer post is great!
LOL!

[Anonymous (70.17.248.67)]

Here we go again...

[Anonymous (63.27.26.98)]

Yes, they are here in Baltimore! LOL!!! Think they must have rolled all the way...

[Anonymous (70.17.128.228)]

"Honoring the Truth-Teller"
-by Dr. Roger W. Sapp.

Prior to 1993, I was an active duty Army Chaplain. During that season in my life, I taught leadership skills to officers and non commissioned officers in leadership retreats as a part of my ministry. I often used management games to teach these leaders about leadership. In one management game called "Powerplay", a scenario is created where these leaders were arbitrarily divided into groups by virtue of winning in a trading scenario. The winning group is then given authority over the other groups. Without exception, the group that has the authority always begins to make rules to keep its authority and to benefit it as a group in trading. Given enough time the winning group will begin to clearly abuse the other groups. This group will justify its behavior on the basis of winning the earlier portion of the game and by virtue of having the authority.

Reactions of Different Abused Groups:

In those retreats where non-commissioned officers (sergeants) were involved, the sergeants would allow themselves to be abused. Their overriding value was loyalty to the authority no matter what transpired or how fairly they were treated. They were unhappy and grumbled among themselves during the abuse but did not do anything productive to deal with it. They offered no feedback, no confrontation, and no truth from their perspective to the abusive group of sergeants. This was characteristic of nearly all the sergeants that I played this game with. This revealed that their values were highly loyal but truthfulness was weak as a value. (Of course, there were a few exceptional sergeants that would have been better officers by nature.)

The reactions of the officers in the officer leadership retreats were entirely different. As the group of officers who abused became more abusive, the officers became increasingly active and alert to their responsibility to deal with the unfair situation. They offered feedback that was largely ignored. They devised strikes; in other words, they withdrew and would not cooperate with the abusive authority. They often tried to continue to confront the abusive group. They tried to negotiate a more just situation.

In nearly all cases, the group in authority would become increasingly authoritarian and created more rules stricly for their own benefit and to keep the rebels in line. The abusive group would often say that the other officer groups were not playing fair when they rebelled, withdrew or failed to cooperate. In other words, the group with the authority became blind to their abuse and blamed the abused groups for withdrawing and not wanting to play the game anymore.

Not Valuing Truth Results in Blindness:

Blindness is characteristic of organizations and leaders that do not value truthfulness in their relationships. This is because truth telling has been stifled in a loyalty-based organization or individuals. Because there is no honest feeedback, they will often be blind to their abusive behavior and honestly wonder why others are reacting. There will be no one to tell them that it is wrong to shift the blame for difficulties in the relationships to the victims of their abusive behavior.

The value of truth is what keeps a local church or any organization from becoming like a cult. Honoring the truth-teller is a characteristic of godly relationships. Dishonoring the truth-teller is a characteristic of cults. Cultic behavior, which always includes blindness, will result from an overemphasis of loyalty above the truth. Leaders must understand that their own desire for loyalty may overcome truthfulness in their subordinates. They must actively cultivate truthfulness along with loyalty.

This game also revealed that different kinds of people have different values and expectations. Commissioned officers are taught in the military that proper submission means that they will speak to the superior officer with courage and candor (truthfulness) about organizational problems. Officers who will not confront their commander when necessary are poor excuses for leaders. Commanders who will not hear the honest, truthful input of their subordinates without penalty are poor commanders.

The officer type of leader expects to be treated well by other leaders. He expects his input to be valued and genuinely considered. The officer type of leader will want to fix the organization's larger problems and will not ordinarily be silent about them. If the organizational values lean too far to loyalty and not enough on truthfulness, this type of leader will often be seen as not being a team player and be penalized by being privately labeled as such. As a result the organization may lose this valuable leader.

The sergeant type of leader will remain loyal to a fault. He will adjust to the problems and not necessarily ever speak truthfully to the organization. There is nothing wrong with this type of person; in fact, they are greatly needed in all organizations. However, in unhealthy organizations, the sergeant type of leader is valued above the officer type of leader. The officer type of person can help an organization to deal with its problems and therefore grow. If an organization creates an atmosphere for genuine honesty and truthfulness, it will attract many of the officer types of persons and will be able to keep them. It will not lose its sergeant types either. In fact, the sergeant type of leader will be much happier since problems will be dealt with.

When Loyalty Overcomes Truthfulness:

Loyalty and truthfulness are two covenant values that must be held in tension against one another. Loyalty binds us together. The truth sets us free. If one value is emphasized over the other, then serious problems develop and both values will become distorted. If loyalty is overemphasized, then only affirmation will be given and heard as feedback. If truth telling is practised without love and without loyalty, it does not build but tears down. If truthfulness is considered a fundamental component of loyalty, then the organization will have true unity.

Often in an organization, whether it is the local church, a business, a denomination, or a fellowship of churches, loyalty becomes the overriding value and begins to overcome truthfulness. This is often revealed in private words, actions and attitudes rather than the official position of the organization. The leaders of an organization may say that they value truthfulness but reveal in their actions that this is not really so. There are several predictable results when this happens:

Truth-Tellers are Unappreciated.

Individuals who strongly value honesty and truthfulness are unappreciated, and often rejected as disloyal. Some people are particularly oriented to truthfulness and may be seen as not being team players by those who highly value loyalty. This may create a value conflict in the organization between the truth-tellers and those who highly prize loyalty. The loyalty value normally wins over truthfulness in these kinds of situations because those in authority will often value loyalty over truthfulness.

When the loyalty value wins over truth, it often takes the form of a suppression of free expression, particularly dissent. This does not make the elements of truth in dissent go away; truth will surface again and again in different, even more destructive forms, until it is dealt with properly. This is precisely why political tyrants are unable to completely silence free expression and why they feel the need to silence it. The truth will find a way to express itself simply because it is the truth and God stands behind it.

Every time loyalty wins over truthfulness, loyal individuals are unintentionally trained by the leadership to hide the truth or to put an organizational spin on it. Truthful individuals are trained that they are not really welcome. Perceptions are created that success and promotion in the organization comes by telling the leadership what they want to hear rather than the truth. Loyal yes men can seem to become valued over those who have strong individual integrity and truthfulness.

Sincere Relationships in the Church:

The concept of sincerity may be the best blend of the values of loyalty and truthfulness. A sincere person is a person who out of loyalty to God and others speaks the truth without mixture. The word sincere comes from the Latin word sincerus. It literally means without wax. This word comes from the time when the Romans were building great buildings using marble columns to support the weight of these monumental buildings. The builders would go to the marble cutters in the quarries and inspect the columns. The cutters would put wax in the cracks of columns to make them deceptively appear to be solid in order to sell them. The builders could only use the sincere columns to build with. The columns that where what they appeared to be, that were actually solid, without wax hiding cracks, were the only thing that would sustain the weight of the building. If a builder built a building using a column that lacked sincerity, the entire building could fall down. The parallels are evident. The Spirit of Truth needs sincere people to build the Church; people that value loyalty and truthfulness in harmony with each other.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

The above story explains something to me that I haven't quite understood.

We have friends on the missionfield that could be described as loyal. They also know much of the truth about their ministry......enough, I would think to get themselves out. Yet, they remain. They get angry if questioned as to why they stay in such an abusive and corrupt group. They really don't make waves when amongst the big shots, but they don't hestitate to acknowledge the problems.

I think I see now why they stay. They are like the sergeants in the above story......not real leaders. They value loyalty over anything else. Truth isn't all that important to them. I wonder if they think they will be rewarded in Heaven. Or, they have grown blind.

Why some people decide to stay in has always baffled me, especially when one cannot figure out why they do. This story has shed a bit of light.

[Dave Drago (66.136.186.161)]

No wonder their is silence in the ranks. The ranks are filled with those who value loyalty over truth. Loyalty and truth go hand in hand. What a shame to elevate loyalty and ignore truth.
A few Thoughts:

1. If you are the leader (in authority)and you surround yourselves with those who value loyalty to the organization and leader over those who value truth, then you are setting the table and inviting disaster to have the seat of honor at your Banquet of Self- Destruction.

2. The result? The leaders who value truth resign, leave and are labeled as backbiters and trouble makers who are hurting the organization.

3. Imagine three decades of a leader searching out and cultivating loyalists! Truth will fall in the street and justice will take a vacation.

4. And, those who could help the organization have long since left and the organization continues to suffer.

5. An efective leader cultivates a climate of truthfulness and loyalty to God. He also culitivates loyalty to other Christians as long as they (including him) are walking in the light. "Follow me as I follow Christ". Part of walking in the light is discerning when your brother is caught in a fault and lovingly correcting and restoring him.
For Him,
Dave

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

With Greater Grace, these are the questions I raise:

1) Is Carl really subject to the elders? Remember he has chosen these men, and they are part of his ministry. They are individually subject to him in his own eyes.

2) Is there really anyone Carl considers himself spiritually subject to? Does some person with authority actually stand behind him, and does anyone know who that is if so?

3) If there is such a person, can he/(she?!?) be entreated by those either within or outside of GG to intervene?


I consider the board of elders to be compromised. I believe Carl should be subject to a council of leaders from other ministries who are reputable in the eyes of the Christian community at large. Otherwise, I really consider the desired changes to just be pie in the sky. Even if it is a cult (and I personally don't choose to say whether it is or not), true spiritual authority obeyed can bring it into God's focus. It seems too much to hope for, but our God is very large and powerful and loving. I have to believe He wants His order for the House; and there are a lot of 'sheep' involved here.

[Anon Brief (152.163.101.13)]

Exactly, Bob.

[Anonymous (67.243.240.193)]

It is probably better that Carl Stay in his little position of power in the pulpit at GGWO for this time until he is fully incoherent or passes away.
He is a living/breathing demonstration of how NOT to lead a church.
By the time his reign is over, his successor will not get away with half the things Carl has, because Carls personality is imprinted upon those who follow him.
No matter how much his succesor tries to mimic Carl in his behavior ar personality, he will meet growing oppostion from those in the ministry who resent the very fact that he is NOT Carl.
In the fullness of time...(Galatians 4) God fulfills such things. I think this whole matter is a test of patience for those of us outside of GGWO and a test of discernment(or lack therof) among other things for those still in GGWO.
Watching the sad demise of this church seems like the natural progression of ruler spoken described in the book of Judges, or 1st and 2nd Chronichles. Often those passages speak of a leader who reigned so many years and did some notable things but tarnished their accomplishments because they did evil in the sight of the Lord as it is translated.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Interestingly, Hezekiah, one of Judah's greatest kings, screwed up near the end of his reign; and his son (Manasseh), who was perhaps the worst, repented near the end of his reign and received grace. Carl could repent and find grace. That would really be something. There would be a lot to rectify. It's not impossible, but highly unlikely.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Excellent points Anon67

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

telling the truth ....can any of you factnet posters know it ???

[Anonymous (68.33.230.176)]

do not worrie about anything but coming to the bible study tuesday morning at 10:00 that way everything will be coming out and everyone can start the healing process........

[Anonymous (67.243.241.110)]

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH ANON 69 !!!

(from a Few Good Men...)

By the way are there any good men left at Carl's Church or just the same old butt kissers?

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

telling the truth can any of you factnet posters know it