REAL FACTS BEHIND GGWO and how it all began

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

A number of people on this board have been with
GGWO for 10, 20 and even more years. They
considered GGWO their "final" destination for a
local church here on earth. In the beginning
everything looks so good at GGWO and you
feel "home" so to speak -- seemingly a true
evangelical Christian Church. No doubt, there are
many, many people in GGWO that are very loving,
kind and have the same intentions like we had: to
study the Word of God to get to know Jesus Christ
and to share Him with others and being in a
fellowship of like-minded folks -- simply put our
desire was genuine Christianity. We appreciated
the acceptance, the friendships, the apparent
sincere concerns and encouragements, and the
hoped-for teaching of the pure Word of God.

Think about how shocking and devastating it was
when certain odd things happened and the true
colors of GGWO were shown. And as we were
indoctrinated to give "Grace" in every situation
and to just keep quiet, pray and let God take
care of situations, lots of things were never
mentioned again, because we obeyed our "leaders"
which were CHS (Carl H. Stevens) and other
influential pastors. And they used the Word of
God to condition our minds to be obedient. And
when something happened once that might have been
alright and we'll let it go as there's no perfect
church -- we give "Grace." Then if something
happens twice, alright then, lets give "Grace"
again, but if it's an ongoing thing for over 35+
years and it's not hearsay, but fact and absolute
reality and it goes on and on and on, then people
start to ask questions, and that's exactly what
thousands of former GGWO/TBS people have done
over the years. Remember, that key GGWO/TBS folks
have left GGWO over last few years -- these
people were pillars of the church and have been
with GGWO for some 20-30 years. It's a gigantic
step to leave GGWO after such a very long time.

The ones who left had good reasons to leave and
it often takes years to come to the final
decision to leave as usually God will provide a
way of escape. Meaning, many don't get up and
leave GGWO just like that overnight, but they
pray and ask God to do something in their lives
regarding the issues at hand for many years as
they continue to believe the best. And then God
comes in and provides the way of escape -- in
many cases God is gracious and takes these people
out of the "church/ministry" somehow as He
answers their prayers.

Many who left GGWO never talk about GGWO in
public or even privately -- they've been hurt and
so on. They don't want to be reminded of the many
painful years at GGWO. And also, at GGWO we all
have been conditioned not to talk about things
because it has been taught us that no matter if a
matter is true or not, you don't tell it to
others as supposedly you violate 35 major Bible
doctrines and the judgement which should the
guilty party should receive, will in turn
supposedly fall on you if you tell and even if
you utter your concerns.
Don't say that these kinds of threats which are
established in the mind over many years, and that
this kind of fear is not abuse and cultic
behavior? If GGWO didn't have anything to hide,
then such weird out-of-context doctrines would
never be emphasized.

True, the Bible teaches against gossip,
maligning, backbiting and so forth, but this is
forum is not about that at all, even though some
posters do that. But there are hundreds of dear
people in GGWO right now who are hurting and who
have mixed feelings because they think they
themselves are deceived because they have the
thought to leave GGWO, because they also see what
is going on in GGWO and what it really is. But
these folks are still afraid to leave GGWO
because then they may step out of the
geographical will of God or out of the perfect
will of God, and perhaps their salvation years
ago may have not been genuine after all if they
leave the "ministry", and of course they
supposedly will lose all rewards throughout the
many years they've been with GGWO.
THESE ARE THE FEAR-FILLED AND FALSE DOCTRINES OF
GGWO, which by these doctrines alone identifies
GGWO as a cult. Because there's mind control in a
very subtle way.

Many probably don't know much of the details of
what goes on behind the scenes in GGWO, because
the average GGWOer is never there when there
are "special" discussions and "certain"
arrangements made. I was there at many
such "meetings" and I know for a fact how it
works. And whatever CHS says is final and it
is "applauded" and "agreed" to by the Yes-crowd
who are mesmerized by their leader as he
supposedly has all the ultimate truth and as he
is supposedly "anointed" regarding everything he
says and does.

And there are many, many issues that haven't even
been discussed on this forum which would shock
you right out of your infatuation with GGWO. Many
critics of this board display the obvious signs
of being a GGWO mind-control victim. Read the
thread on "GGCA" on this board and you know that
children have been abused and when it was brought
to the attention of P. Baker (principal of GGCA)
he just laughed his head off and said the typical
GGWO statement that he could do nothing right
now, but we'll be praying about it, and give
Grace and let God take care of it.
And the same happened when it came to money
issues in GGWO -- people never got their money
back and I'm not talking about a few hundred
dollars or a few thousand dollars in the various
cases although these disputed amounts are more
frequent, but we've seen where the issue were
tens of thousands of dollars and even hundreds of
thousands of dollars, and then you had the $7
million in Lenox in 1987 (there's an official
court documentation about that whole case and
there's extensive evidence). CHS was accused and
found guilty of undue influence.
There are also many issues in GGWO we will never
hear about, because of the hush-hush policy and
the typical secrecy about this and that which
creates mistrust.

If, for instance, somebody in the leadership had
a one-night stand and repented of it and it was
an isolated case, nobody should bring it up again
and it's completely forgotten. But if someone had
an ongoing affair and the particulars of Paul
Stevens' affair are very disturbing to say the
least, and even if he repented, for a while
this "pastor" needs to take a break and get some
issues cleared up with God, and not take the next
plane to the next conference and preach the Word
of God there. And he shouldn't be on radio and
not a pastor for a while just for the purpose of
getting some healing and to deal with the issues.
Because otherwise he'll be a repeat offender and
the whole Lang incident shows the pattern of a
potential repeat offender, if he hasn't been
washed with the Word of God in that particular
problem/sin area. Sexual sins are always
devastating and Proverbs tells us that these sins
destroy the soul.

But GGWO is filled with cover ups, because of
their supposed "Grace" application in daily life.
It sounds so good and it's usually perfectly fine
if it's a minor case here or there, but if it's
repetitive behavior over many, many decades then
something isn't working right.

In the Bible we still read about David as he had
an affair with Bathsheba and we still read that
David arranged the murder of Uriah, and yes we
read the David was a man after God's own heart,
but we don't hear God say in His Word after He
told us about the things which David did: now
let's forget about it. Instead it's on record for
all eternity as the Word of God will stand
forever. So deal with that if you're so excited
about not uncovering certain devastating issues.
And there are many more instances in the Bible
that tell us what so and so did. So why don't you
ask God why He didn't keep this and that thing of
a biblical character quiet, but shared it with
everybody.
We of course know, it's to explain His Mercy and
Grace and the miracle Grace can perform in a
person as a result if we as His people simply
receive His Grace as a free gift.

And although there are many beautiful people in
GGWO and there's no doubt about it, and there are
a number of really honest upright godly Pastors
in Greater Grace and its branch ministries, it
doesn't change the practice and certain doctrines
of GGWO which is absolutely fully-fledged cultic
- the obvious signs of a cult. A true Grace
Church based on the prinicples of the Bible does
not instill fear in its members, and it will
never invade the believer's privacy between that
believer and God, but GGWO does. A true Grace
Church will build people up as the leadership at
such a church shares the pure Word of God. And
such a true Grace Church will provide the ability
to the believers to grow in the Grace and
Knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
There will be no threats or fearful doctrines in
a true church of God.

Like some stated here in this forum they said
that CHS most likely started out with sincerity
and with the best intentions. But perhaps he
jumped into the ministry too early without the
proper education and without the proper checks
and balances. It can be exciting to start a new
little church or work of God and then have a
certain measure of success as the crowds came,
and then in a desire to keep them coming and
bring "fresh" gems from the Word it's very easy
to get off track. CHS himself said that in his
early years as a preacher he at times went too
far to the left and then too far to the right,
and it's alright because it's a process of
growing.

As you know CHS is extremely paranoid and in his
case his paranoia started at a very young age.
His dad died when he was only three years old,
which is a terrible experience, then when he went
to school and even into his early teenage years
the Stevens family with the hard-working widow
mom was very, very poor and the other kids
laughed at young Carl because of that. Needless
to say that CHS went through a lot as a little
boy in Maine and he has been scarred, and my
heart goes really out to him. And it was such a
privilege when he met the Savior and was earnest
in studying the Word of God and in sharing it
with others.
But we also know how psychologically success
works and it often cannot be comprehended by the
person who is blessed with the early success in
life. It's the prosperity test which so many
desire and most people fail it. And as a young
pastor your church is growing and then you don't\
want to lose what you have and you work on
extending your success and controlling your
success or you could call it blessing instead of
success if you like, and you try desperately to
keep it and to even create more momentum.
The result is that self-preservation is a driving
force. There's nothing better than to taste
success and receive a load of blessings, but
there's also God who wants to draw us closer to
Him and in the midst of success we often withdraw
and then God does something about it.
Anyway, to keep the success going, there's a
tendency to begin controlling people and since
CHS has had never real training in the Word of
God, but only his own studies, although he
consulted commentaries, etc., and then he had no
real quality checks and balances in the
beginning, the wheel of deception just began
spinning and over the years you end up with the
cultic doctrines that you find today in GGWO and
which have been in GGWO/TBS for decades.

Then add a few "fanatics" to it who elevate the
person (in this case CHS) like in the case of
every celebrity to a pedestal and you got the
whole package of cultic behavior. And as people
often don't have a genuine identiy in Christ,
they fall for a human leader or an organization
who/which apparently provides a type of identiy
they can take on and relate to, instead of
deriving a genuine identity from Christ. Let's
not forget that many in GGWO or the former TBS
around the late 60s and early 70s came out of the
Flower-Power era, the Jesus movement, who
experimented with drugs, and who were eagerly
searching for an identity.

Jesus said that, if He (Jesus) be lifted up, He
will draw all men unto Him.

Just something to think about and to see things
objectively. Nobody should be trashing GGWO or
CHS, but instead look at the facts and how things
really are.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Way to go, 68!!!!

Roberta

[Anonymous (4.139.12.4)]

Thanks 68! God is going to use the insights He's revealed to you mightly...you're the best!

[Anonymous (4.139.12.4)]

Seems like wherever
truth is told; 68.34
comes in with their
"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~."
This sabotage is the
highest form of praise
and helps bring recognition
to the fact that the truth
about GGWO is hitting too
close to home!

Keep up the "~~~~~~~~~~"
68; they verify we are on the
right track and the truth is
being told!!! Thank you for
corroborating this fact
with your fearful and
defensive tactics at
sabotaging this board!!

You are a tremendous help
to the cause to expose this
lie!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

4.139 so true!!

It is like watching
demons at work.

You can hear their screams:
make the light go away!
Leave us alone, to deal
our dirty deeds in darkness.

The games you play now
are in view of all.

The watching world observes
your foolish attempts
to silence the voices
of bleeding and beaten
sheep.

But the sheep belong to Him
and you my dear deceived
will not win!

[Anonymous (4.139.12.4)]

AMEN!

[Anonymous (4.139.12.101)]

This King-Kong thread is a MUST read and should be first on the boards!

[Anonymous (207.44.134.33)]

ugh

[Anonymous (68.55.83.36)]

To all
Carl's demons are so LOUD how can you hear any of the other demons trying to scream out?

[Anonymous (68.55.83.36)]

Again:
Carl's demons are so LOUD, how can you hear any other demons screaming? Even they want out!

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

a

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

.

[Anon (64.12.117.20)]

Anonymous (68.229.25.178) This might be true. At least it's not vindictive, and plain evil. I think this might hold some truth. But honestly, more than Pastor's problems are the problems with the elders. They're all wanting his place, standing in line devouring one another and everyone around them. If you open your eyes, you'll see things far, far more shocking than what's been brought out so far. There are really serious church polity issues that are hurting real people who've done nothing but honestly give their all to God and the ministry.

[Anonymous (68.229.25.178)]

To Anon 64.12 June 23 -- 04:38

I agree!!! You're seeing the bigger picture!

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Folks,

Here is the beginning of a GGWO "Wittenburg Door". This is a partial list that looks toward bringing some healing to the GGWO body, based on concerns aired here at FactNet.org.

1) PUBLIC Repentance of Pastors' Carl H. and Paul Stevens (in front of the WHOLE GGWO Body) for their disgusting behavior in the Alan and Margaret Lang matter (and any/all others). A disclosure of the exact amount of MONEY paid out. Both of these men step down from preaching/leading for at least 1 year.

2) PUBLIC Repentance of ALL GGWO Elders involved in the initial complicity (in front of the WHOLE GGWO Body) in the Alan and Margaret Lang matter (and any/all others). All of these men are removed from eldership for at least 3 years. Elders that are on staff much step down for a reasonable season.

3) Complete independent external AUDIT of ALL GGWO Baltimore Financial documents/books. Depositions taken from ALL current and former STAFF members that have anything to do with GGWO finances, with an end toward determining if legal action can taken for impropriety.

4) ALL of Pastor Steven's doctrines submitted for review to a group of independent Evangelical scholars that includes men FORMALLY EDUCATED, CREDIBLE, AND CREDENTIALED in Hebrew/Greek from outside of GGWO. Those doctrines that are "over-amplified" (e.g. tirades on "soul-winning", bema-seat specifics, exaggerated anthropomorphisms/anthropopathphisms like "two-kidneys" for the emotions, "decusation of pyramids," etc., MISUSE of the Finished Work to COVER ridiculous abuses of authority in pastoral leadership, the FALSE OVER-EXTENSION of the Doctrine of One Pastor/Teacher AND his supposed responsibility to "present" at the bema seat, etc.). Those doctrines that "don't pass muster" are removed from public availability and a PUBLIC position paper on why they are wrong POSTED to the GGWO Web site.

5) A complete overhaul of the GGWO music ministry that gives gifted musicians, that are also faithful, an opportunity to exercise their gifts in GGWO services on some consisitent schedule.

6) Formation of a "congregational council" and semi-annual body meetings (formal membership?) and reformation of the Elders to include a majority WHO ARE NOT ON THE PAYROLL AT GGWO (a clear conflict of interest).

7) The GGWO pulpit is NEVER OPENED AGAIN to ANY man who uses mocking language of any kind, toward anyone (If you don't think Pastor Stevens' practices this, just get some of his tapes). The issue of confrontational soul-winning is NEVER again turned into a "bully pulpit" for Pastor Stevens' "Right-wing Arminian tirades." Folks MUST be ENCOURAGED to practice evangelism in a way CONSISTENT with God's unique design for them; INSTEAD of being "bullied" into the "Jack Hyles method of Bible Baptist door knocking".

8) A PULIC declaration is made that GGWO is about the BODY OF CHRIST, not Carl Stevens, his family, or the "old New England Gang".

. . . much more could probably be prayerfully thought of.

[Jack & Chris Brown (141.157.71.137)]

nonotone,

Amen. We agree completely.

[John Krainis (207.5.239.219)]

Well said nonotone.

It would be helpful to post that on a non-elongated thread.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Nonotone,

Excellent! Let healing and restoration begin.

[Louise Connolly (151.121.50.1)]

Post these stipulations all you want but don't anyone hold their breath.

[Anonymous (70.16.5.181)]

We won't hold our breath but at least we can keep the light on to expose the evil. Keep speaking the truth!!

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

nonotone-
sounds great but you forgot the burning Carl at the stake part...

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Nonotone,

I pray to see it come true.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Check out this on Jack Hyles, one of Carl H. Stevens' principal "mentors":

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/errors.htm

... have Hyles' methods reproduced in Stevens?

[freaked out (66.30.49.45)]

Oh my gosh!

I just checked that thing on Hyles out!
Wow. I remember very well all Stevens' references to Hyles in the Lenox days. Ugh!

I think I'll go find my old copy of WOMAN THE COMPLETER by him and chuck it quick!!

Didn't Stevens attend Hyles' bible school?
What was the actual connection between the two of them? I don't think Hyles ever spoke at TBS or GG.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

On Thread 16, I posted the Lake Elsinore letter and the notes attached to it. They are two long posts that can be copied out and read at ones leisure not online. Martin L. put a big post below to distract from the letter. The Lake Elsinore letter is an appropriate topic for this thread.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.144.204)]

Thank you Louise. Martin posted as I was reading through it. Love, Bob

[freaked out (66.30.49.45)]

Seriously, folks-

Please check out all the stuff on Hyles :
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/general.htm

This REALLY gives some amazing insight into the "roots" of Stevens, his teachings and church government practices.

IT's ALL THERE- repeated by Stevens like a TV movie remake of classic corruption!!!

You old time Bible Speakers will really want to check it out especially!

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

What the Westminster Larger Catechism says about the
duties of "Superiors" (i.e. Pastor/Teachers) to
"Inferiors" (i.e. "Body Members") AND the of sins of
superiors. Remember folks, this an HISTORICALLY
ACCEPTED Christian document that has helped 1000's
upon 1000's Christians have live AND DIE for God's
GLORY!


129. What is required of superiors towards their
inferiors? It is required of superiors, according to
that power they receive from God, and that relation
wherein they stand, to love, pray for, and bless their
inferiors; to instruct, counsel, and admonish them;
countenancing, commending, and rewarding such as do
well; and discountenancing, reproving, and chastising
such as do ill; protecting, and providing for them all
things necessary for soul and body: and by grave,
wise, holy, and exemplary carriage, to procure glory
to God, honor to themselves, and so to preserve that
authority which God has put upon them.

130. What are the sins of superiors? The sins of
superiors are, besides the neglect of the duties
required of them, an inordinate seeking of themselves,
their own glory, ease, profit, or pleasure; commanding
things unlawful, or not in the power of inferiors to
perform; counseling, encouraging, or favoring them in
that which is evil; dissuading, discouraging, or
discountenancing them in that which is good;
correcting them unduly; careless exposing, or leaving
them to wrong, temptation, and danger; provoking them
to wrath; or any way dishonoring themselves, or
lessening their authority, by an unjust, indiscreet,
rigorous, or remiss behavior.

[f.o. (66.30.49.45)]

By the way, Hyles was really into the King James Version like it was a mission. Weird the parallels again.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.144.190)]

nonotone, Is there some method of correction given for the sins of superiors in that document? Bob

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Bob,
The Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms are Anglican documents, they are an Act of the British Parliament. Presbyterians rely on them now as a faithful representation of the faith revealed in scripture. They are based on the much briefer 39 Articles of Religion. The Presbyterians use a "Book of Church Order" to outline their process for discipline--now there's a concept--Church order.

The 39 articles do however contain this phrase in Article 26:

"Nevertheless, it appertaineth to the discipline of the Church, that inquiry be made of evil Ministers, and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences; and finally, being found guilty, by just judgment be deposed."

Rather straightforward isn't it?

[Bob Brinton (151.203.163.233)]

Maybe I'm a litle dense; but does this mean that if elders sin and we are aware of it, we're supposed to speak up? Bob

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

That is what it means.

And if you don't you share in their sin.

[Cara (152.163.253.102)]

This excerpted from the "Biblical Evangelist" concerning the doctrinal errors of Jack Hyles.

It sounds eerily familiar!

{{{Hyles expects absolute loyalty from all who are associated with him. In a 3/5/89 sermon, Hyles told his congregation that if he were to tell each one of the men sitting on the platform to go jump off a bridge and commit suicide for him, he had no doubt but what each one would do it, they were so submitted to him. Not a word did he say about suicide being wrong, or that such loyalty/submission is totally unbiblical. [Rather than "loyalty," it should more aptly be defined as "cultic." Such blind obedience is the kind of mind control the cults have over their followers.]}}}

[Bob Brinton (151.203.163.233)]

Hey, I don't remember if this story came to me through Stevens or not; but I remember something about Alexander the Great asking one of his followers to fall on his sword (who immediately did so - they're at the door ready to carry you out). I'm sure Alex' guests were suitably impressed, and didn't feel free to disagree with his doctrine. Bob

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

Go and do something satan really doesn't want you to do today and pray instead of spending time on factnet.

[Anonymous (155.188.255.3)]

.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Thanks to all of you for sharing such excellent information. Now it all makes more sense.

Susanna

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

I read the comments about Hyles' ministry (First Baptist) at this discussion board and I found some really interesting stuff. The no-touch-love policy that forbids couples from holding hands is found at the Hyles Bible College. The KJV is considered to be the one and only translation of the Bible, as f.o. pointed out, which is also been taught at GGWO. No student insubordination is accepted i.e. no questioning or criticism of the teaching or practices of the teachers and pastors is allowed. Doesn't it sound just like GGWO?

Did Stevens really attend Hyles' Bible College? That would explain why the Baptists were considered being "almost the same as GGWO".

Susanna

[Anonymous (205.188.117.11)]

No, Carl never attended Hyles church. He just listened to a lot of his tapes.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Oh, I forgot to mention one more thing, mandatory "soulwinning" every week for everyone. Sound familiar?

Thanks an. 205

Susanna

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Folks,

What is really being described here (with Hyles, etc. - and in reality Bob Jones, Pensacola Christian College, etc. should be thrown in because they are basically all the same) is Good Ole Garden Variety Americana Right-Wing Pulpit-Pounding, Sermon Screaming/Spitting, FUNDAMENTALISM. a.k.a GOGVARWPPSSSF

Could someone please tell us what wearing suits, having short hair, and screaming about the KJV, has to do with REAL CHRISTIANITY?

In all fariness to Carl H. Stevens, his message of Grace and Mercy first found its way to many who had been spiritually and emotionally "sandbagged" by this very same Right Wing Fundamentalism. The truth is, is that (at least in the early days of TBS) Carl H. Stevens provided a haven for many that loved the conservative dispensational Bible-Baptist doctrine, but were desperate for something fresh that truly reveals God's nature of love and mercy (... and anyone who has had much experience with GOGVARWPPSSSF knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about).

I believe the particular GGWO emphasis on soul-winning comes from the American Right-Wing Bible Baptist Tradition which has its roots in Arminian (semi-Pelagian) doctrine. In this system of doctrine (which BTW I do NOT agree with), it is often expressed that God holds EVERY believer responsible to evangelize. This system has as its premise that each person can make a DESICSION to be saved and therefore only need hear the Gospel (usually in a persusave way).

Please understand that I'm not trying to minimize evagelism. It is paramount to God. What I'm against are manipulative tactics that replace God's unique design for the individual believer with a collective mentality that says, in effect, "you must do it OUR WAY" in order to be truly biblical, etc.

What seems to be a recurring theme for GGWO here on Factnet is the apparent contradiction between the message of unconditional love, grace, and mercy - over and against the unrelenting historical diatribe by Stevens' on confrontational evangelism.

IMO, what is so sad about this, is that many folks who don't have the "gift" of "doing doors" wind up feeling very condemned because they don't soul-win the "Stevens'" way. I've even heard Pastor Stevens directly confront (in a mocking tone) from the pulpit, those who have tried to explain to him that they soul-win but they just don't do it "his" way.

The issue that I see here is one of a real confict and lack of having an integral belief system. IF God is a God of grace, mercy, and unconditional love toward everyone of this blood-bought children (which I BTW believe is true), then WHY does he need Hyles, Steven's, etc. to "blow their stack" on a regular basis concerning soul-winning.

From my experience this may temporary motivate (... manipulate?) people into going out on Saturday for a couple of weeks before life cirmstances and family life forces them to take this scarce time for "themselves". In reality these continual tirades on evangelism serve to slowly "break down" the individuals personal sense of identity with God and the very unique way that He made them in His image. I believe that it is in our family, work-place, and neighborhoods that real "evangelism" begins. As I discover more and more about how much God loves me and experience this by embracing His design for my life, them I'm free to reflect His glory in a way that will draw others to the light of Christ's love.

[Anonymous (67.243.241.227)]

WELL SAID NONOTONE,
and long overdue.
Thanks

[Anonymous (205.188.117.11)]

Dear Nonotone,

You hit the nail on the head. This is one of the key facets that wore each of us out at GGWO.

My personal experience attests to this. When I was very "in" the ministry, my time and interaction with the world was limited. Upon leaving, I worked a full-time in the world. My energy was no longer consumed with services, outreaches, raps and after-raps. I had time and energy to interact with those around me. I impacted those lives in a very meaningful way, more so than any 30-45 minutes out on the street on Saturday morning. Examples are as follows: A co-worker whose demeanor was tough and distant was slowly drawn to my approach to life. She eventually shared with me her story. At fourteen she watched her stepfather stab her mother to death and in a drug haze, turn the knife on himself. They both died. She raised her baby brother and obtained legal guardianship of him. She accepted the Lord and attends a Baptist church to this day. Another co-worker was a seeker of "the truth yet to be found," he was a vegan, Buddist, member of a punk rock, animal activist band. We became good friends. He is now a born-again believer in a small Baptist church with his newly married converted Jewish wife. Another co-worker was a brooding, drinking, cussing young man, unbeknownst to me, he was a backslidden Christian. After many long talks and a copy of Rich Mullins biography as a Christmas present, he is no longer away from God and is marrying a wonderful Christian girl this summer. There is nothing special about me except Christ and the opportunity to share Him in a way that impacts other's daily life. And, oh.. this all occurred while those at GGWO considered me off, evil and possibly unsaved for "leaving the ministry."

[Anonymous (68.33.230.176)]

Hey 205 very interesting stories i am always willing to have another friend who are you.. please let me know.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

I remember being completely burned out within a couple of months after I began to attend my third semester at the local Bible College in Stockholm. I worked 40-60 hours a week at nursinghomes and hospitals (which is an extremly demanding job, both mentally and physically), attended the Bible College, attended three services a week, soulwinning on Saturdays, I commuted three hours daily to get to the school and work. In addition I had to clean my appartment, pay bills, do laundry, shopping, all the homework and hopefully get some sleep. After awhile I began to skip the soulwinning on Saturdays and attend services only once a week. Quickly after that my pastor began to call me and wonder where I was... I explained to him that I just couldn't do all of it, that it was too much for me. He thought that the problem would be solved if I just re-arranged my schedule.. It was totally bizarre. At the end I just stopped attending everything for a couple of months.
Another reason why I stopped attending was the incredibly chauvinistic attitudes some of the guys at our church had. During our summercamp I had the priviledge of leading a visting young man to Jesus. When I saw some of the guys that I considered to be my friends talking with each other I went to them and told them excitedly that our new friend got saved. One of them, who was from a different area and pretty much unknown to me, looked at me and asked if I flirted everyone to heaven. I just stared at him in disbelief. I douldn't believe what I had just heard! Then the others joined in saying that they had seen me flirt with him and that I proved it by blushing etc. I was completely dumbfounded and I just couldn't believe that they could say such things! Later when I told about this incident to my pastor while explaining why I didn't want to attend the church anymore, he just kind of shrugged and didn't comment it much. I mean come on! I was really mad about it and it was one the things that Holy Spirit used to lead me away from the ministry.
There is a strange attitude towards women in GG and it shows its ugly head now and then. Just consider their opinion (that they do not endorse alone) of Adam taking the forbidden fruit our of love because he wanted to die with Eve. Well, that would make Eve the "bad guy" and Adam the innocent victim of his wife's sin and in a sense "a hero". The Bible says that Eve was deceived while Adam sinned with his eyes open i.e. he didn't do it out of love but was most likely just as curios as Eve, and took the fruit because he wanted to do it, not because he felt sorry for his wife who was now destined to die. Job says that he hadn't hidden transgression in his bossom as Adam did which means that the first man transgressed and sinned knowing fully well that what he did was wrong. And wouldn't it have been unfair of God if He would have blamed Adam for corrupting the whole world, if he was only acting out of love? And by the way, what ever our reasons behind our sins are, they cannot justify the sin. In GG all kinds of excuses are used to cover up sins and such "doctrines" as this one are used to justify disobedience to God. As long as your motivations are right, go ahead! But Jesus said that the first commandment was to love God and then love your neighbor. Disobeying God is not loving Him.
Anyways, I agree completely with the previous postings about the soulwinning. It can be done in so many different ways and we spread the fragrance of Christ every moment of the day, not just on Saturdays.

Susanna

[Anonymous (68.33.114.128)]

Nonotone and others: I have had the same experience as far as my personal ministry being more effective since I left ggwo. Without realizing it, I had put up so many walls between myself and my family/friends with my "intense christianity." Now that I have been out of the church for about six months, I have become so much less judgmental about non-believers as well as other Christians who I thought were "weak" in their faith. As this wall of judgment has subsided, I have so many new friendships and in subtle, gentle ways my love for Christ is revealed. I don't have to purpose to evangelize and say all the right things to people. Rather, honest friendship and dialogue reveal Jesus' love because my friendships go so much deeper now.

I went out to dinner with a new friend recently and she was sharing with me some of the situations in her life that were bothering her. I encouraged her as a friend and we spoke of how God might be moving in her life. To be honest, I went home feeling a little guilty that I didn't "hammer" the God thing a little bit more with her (like I would have six months prior). A week later we were talking and she was telling me how much our conversation really stuck with her and how she was seeing God in a whole new way in her life... I have seen this new perspective unravel in the past few weeks. If I had "hammered" her to see God the way I did (and ggwo did) she probably wouldn't have listened. But, the gentle love of friendship and caring has really made an impact.

This kinder, gentler, more realistic approach has been manifesting itself in so many ways in my life now. Thank you Jesus!

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

As a child and teenager growing up in Lenox, hearing all the messages of soulwinning, etc, I constantly had the feeling that I could never do enough. I worried about it constantly. I tried and tried to find a way to do my part, but it seemed that everying was never good enough for everyone around me. I was one of the "off" kids at school, subject to Pastor John Love's derision much of the time. When I finally found a ministry that I really felt I was doing my part, he asked me if I "had a boyfriend there" and if that was why I was choosing that particular outreach. I remember being so hurt.

As an aside, to this day I can not have any job that requires any selling of any sort - it makes me sick to my stomach. I immediately get images of me as a kid knocking on doors on Saturday morning, all the people who's lives we interruped on thier day's off early in the morning.

I feel that I am a much better witness for God by being the best parent I can be, being a good friend (and in my situation that is desparatedly needed, so many families with dad's deployed right now) and by just being a witness with my life.

And funnily enough, through an online parenting group I have made a friend who grew up in Jack Hyles church and we always tease each other about out cult upbringing.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.11)]

Dear 68.33, It was one of the many things that opened my eyes to something very wrong within GGWO. How could I be having such an impact on the lives around me when GGWO considered me off and evil for leaving? I was labeled as someone who was going away from God, choosing the world over GG. But I knew that I was living my life the way I always had. The fruits of the spirit are within and if you really live your faith, others are drawn to you. Sometimes it takes months to build trust to be able to share the gospel. There was one young girl I worked with who was angry and withdrawn, if someone had witnessed to her on the street I am sure she would have torn up the tract and thrown it away. She watched how I conducted my life over weeks and grew to trust and finally confide in me. She was quite far along in a pregnancy and was torn on whether to abort or give birth. She eventually had this child. I was able to witness to her with words and deeds. Another believer and myself were working on getting her other housing and away from her abusive boyfriend. It was during this time that her boyfriend shot her in the head while she tried to call the police from a pay phone. She died and she went home to Jesus. She was not open to street evangelism. She was open to someone whose life impacted her enough to listen to the words of Life.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.219)]

My brief period of trying to sell things was at Sears in my early Bible school days. I lasted about three months. I just couldn't bring myself to try to sell people stuff they didn't need or want. I hated pressuring people. I didn't like pressuring them to go out soulwinning or to get saved either. And I hate places like Best Buy, where you have 8000 sales people asking you if you're having a nice day and if they can help you. I'd rather just go look for what I want. I don't trust people who sell things for a living, to some degree even those who are trying to 'sell' Jesus.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Friends,

Thank you so much for sharing all of these wonderful stories, I'm sure there is much more that each of us could say!

Also, please pray for me, in about 20 minutes some folks are visiting from GGWO and I'm not sure where "they are" in all of this.

Let's keep up the healing process!! I know I need it!!! God IS truly GOOD and HE alone will work things together to good for us.

[Anonymous (63.27.7.157)]

All this TIME-TIME-TIME sincerely offered by the people on this board is indicative of just what a cult will do to keep their followers under control! It really stinks that these people used our love relationship with Jesus to use and motivate us to not think or question these practices!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

I was just thinking about evangelism and how soulwinning has been used as an excuse for all the bad things that go on behind the scenes. The so called fruit of the ministry, all the people that have been saved has seen as the justification of the continuance of GG despite its unbiblical practices. But I have a hard time with such a concept, because it doesn't add up. Yes, people are being saved, but to what? To a lifelong battle with guilt and shame when they cannot reconcile what they see with what they hear. In essence GG is leading people to a life of idolatry, when they teach them to worship Carl instead of Jesus. Now, how can that be called fruit in a biblical sense? How many of you would leave a child to live in a home that is both mentally and physically abusive? I dare say none. But some seem to think that it's ok to lead people initially to Jesus only to let their faith and their lives be destroyed by this cult. I would say that it is not a good thing that so many people are saved in GG because it ruins their change to ever have a real relationship with God. Most people who came to the Lord through GG, upon leaving, never attended a church again. The ones that joined GG being already believers do better afterwards: after a few years of healing, most are still walking with God.

Susanna

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Very well said, Susanna...very well said, indeed!

[Anonymous (67.243.240.180)]

Susanna, About your comment that people who are already Christian before they join GGWO tend to recover better when they finally leave; I found this true in my case. Had I not been a Christian prior to my years with GGWO, I would have had a bigger challenge knowing what is right.
And Soulwinning has always been used by most pastors at GGWO as a barometer for spirituality.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

You are so right about the soulwinning being the barometer for spirituality in GG. Call me cynical if you wish, but I can't stop thinking that the only reason soulwinning is seen as such an important part of the ministry is money. After all, a lot of people do leave GG, and I mean a lot, so where are the funds supposed to come if there are no people to scam the money from? (I use the word scam because most of the people really believe that the money goes to support a work of God when in reality it is used to support Carl and co.)
I remember reading about TBS times in Lennox, how some of the pastors felt that they had been sent to other cities to hold Biblestudies only as a pretext because almost all the money that was collected was sent to Lennox were Carl was located. "Lennox needs this money", or something similar was said when thousands of dollars were sent from the local groups into Carl's pockets (or where ever the money went). And didn't someone post here a long time ago that Carl was going to become a some sort of honorary pastor after he stepped down and all the affiliated churches across the globe were to support him finacially? Maybe I remember wrong, it was such a long time ago I read it. Anyways, my point is that the geographical will of God and all the other nonsense that has been taught as God's Word are used to keep people from leaving and their pockets open. This is something almost all cults have in common because nearly all cults are nothing but money making businesses in the name of God.

Susanna

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

shaller, robinson, marr & steve stevens are using this forum to build a case against pastor, which by the way is valide, however, they plan on letting the old fart put his foot in it and are all the while busily at work behind the scenes set up the juta of shaller when stevens either croaks or does something SO inappropriate people will demand his resignation or retirement then voila...in prances the subversive shaller with his lawyer and brown-nosers in tow..here comes MORE pastor worship and MORE division in GGWO!
WHAT A MESS! WAKE UP PEOPLE AND QUIT THIS THREE-RING CIRCUS BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

[Anonymous (151.199.28.153)]

It is funny that you should bring up the point about people who were Christians prior to belonging to GG. That was my case too. But I was wondering about the longevity of people in Gg if they are more people who became Christians because of GG and stayed there with nothing to compare it too? Do you believe that those people are the ones who have become life time members or is it a mix of both pre-GG Christians and Christians from GG? I think that would be an interesting point to discover.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

Question : what is GGWO's position on Halloween ?

[Anonymous (70.17.209.202)]

Halloween is a day that doesn't honor God. Who cares what someone's position or opinion is? It simply is an evil day.

[Anonymous (63.27.95.220)]

Halloween is actually based on ALL SAINTS DAY which is NOT evil!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.219)]

Perhaps God allows Halloween in order to apply the cross in the lives of those believers who think sugar is evil. Chocolate, anyone?

[Nancy Curra (151.196.140.208)]

All Saints day is an idolic practice of the Catholic church and the druids. check it out online . It really is very interesting. But it is not Biblical. It is a tradition of men and if you want to know if it honors God. just look up the history online.

Not trying to upset you just better to educate ourselves as Christians concerning this.

We mustn't condemn those that practice this holiday because it is not a big issue in the grand scheme of things.

And to participate in this holiday opens up doors of opportunity to witness possibly or at best establish friendships that will eventually lead to their soul being open to Christ.

So enjoy and have fun with friends but look for opportunities. And to know how the holiday started may lead to interesting conversation.

You never know what God will use to soften a heart towards Him.

Here are some web sites with loads of info on Halloween.. Have fun! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

God bless!

[Nancy C (151.196.140.208)]

Ooops http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Here are the sites:

www.born-again-christian.info/ christian.view.of.halloween.htm

http://www.ghoulskool.com/history.htm

http://www.holidayinsights.com/halloween/samhain.htm

http://www.watchman.org/profile/halwnpro.htm

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.219)]

Nice balance, Nancy.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

What does Halloween have to do with this thread?

So, Nancy what costume are you going to wear?

A paper bag over your face? Or two in case the one you wear all the time breaks?

ROTFLMAO

You'd be the last person I'd celebrate Halloweenie with.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

To your question if it is mainly the people who were saved because of GG that become lifelong members of the ministry I would have to say a hesistant yes because it surely seems to be that way. One of the reasons are, as you also mentioned, that they have nothing to compare their experiences with. The other reasons are that they are Biblically illiterate, they were drawn in by pride and are kept by fear, they think what they are doing is the only way to worship God and they think that by attending the services they accumulate a huge amount of rewards in Heaven, something the Pentecostals & co. aren't according to GG. They think that they are part of an elite group of believers and that GG is truly the best church in the whole world. They are told that over and over again and after awhile they are so brainwashed that they can't think for themselves. They are also told that God speaks only through the pulpit, that He doesn't speak to individuals (talk about Nazi ideology), so every time the Holy Spirit is convicting their hearts, they close their ears and go on believing everything they are taught, even though it may be completely illogical. They are also kept so busy that there is very little time for them to ever get a "second opinion" about what they see or hear. They have been conditioned to believe everything the pastor says and never to question anything they hear. All of these things combined makes it very difficult for these members to ever leave the ministry. Even if they are confronted with the truth they disregard it as a "satanic attack" or as "persecution", or as "a conspiracy" (one of my favorites..). The fear tactics and the poor treatment the people who do leave receive maked GG very similar to the Jehova's Witnesses which is a well known cult.
Unfortunately there are many people that were believers when they joined GG and who end up staying a lifetime. Many, if not most, stay because of pride or because they have a position in the church that they don't want to lose. Some stay also because they knew enough before they came to have a solid ground to stand upon and they aren't so easily intimitated into silent obedience. These people live their own lives, ignoring most of the corrections they receive from the pastors and others and are thus able to thrive spiritually even in GG. Then there are those that stay because they don't have anywhere else to go. One of my friends, who has been part of GG for more than 25 years, said that she didn't know where else to go and said that it was terrible. If I had known all the things that I know today, I would have told her to leave regardless if she found another church to attend, because of the harm that GG does to you in the long run.

Susanna

[Anonymous (151.199.28.153)]

Thank you for that thoughtful and enlightening answer Suanna. That is basically what I assumed.
It is such a sad and scary situation. I can't begin to imagine how hard it is on those people.
I hope that your friend finds the confidence to leave soon.
`

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Glad I was able to help
God bless you

Susanna