WHERE DID THEY GO

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Hi Bob Brinton! Your post about John Gardner was so well said. Scott and I left completely before all that happened, but John and others told us what had happened. He's a great guy. He and Grace deserved so much better than what they got for treatment. Please give my love to Mary?

Roberta (Croteau) Fernalld

[Bob Brinton (141.154.188.162)]

RJ, Hi Roberta. I see Scott once in a while at one of the local libraries. How are you doing? When we all ended up leaving Berkshire Bible, I wished that I could have known John's mind on things better than I had. I was often in pretty strong disagreement even back in the Lenox days; but you couldn't openly express such things then. I usually liked John's messages, but I was always concerned about the organization behind him. Another thing about him that must have bred disfavor was that he wasn't always running down to Baltimore. I believe he was looking to God rather than the structure. Nowadays I always cringe when anyone starts expressing that 'we have the best here' or similar things. That's that pride thing that God actually resists, no matter how succesful things outwardly look. What Lenox lacked was the freedom to directly and personally obey God. It was like trying to keep kids' schedules so booked up that they don't have a chance to get in trouble. Love was the figurehead, but lining up was the key. If we each personally seek obedience to the Lord Himself, then He will place us together as it pleases Him. And there is accountability to others, but He shows us who and how it's supposed to play out. It's very difficult to find ordained pastors that are more interested in building and supporting individuals than they are in how they line up and serve their organizations. It's the person in front of you that really counts, and helping them in their own personal connection with God. Love, Bob

[Bob Brinton (141.154.188.162)]

Margo, I believe the Werrens went down to Baltimore. I don't know if they're still there. I've heard that my sister-in-law (ex?) Debbie is interested in going down. David is still in the area, but doesn't fellowship with others other than in family settings or my Dad's church (in N.H.). Barbara Williams is around. I see Fred Medeiros often at Herrings. Claire Garner goes to the same ministry as my wife and daughter up in Hancock. It's affiliated with Morning Star, but I find some abusive tendencies in the leadership. I also often see Robin (Clark) O Herin. Love, Bob

[Alvin J Saldanha (210.18.25.150)]

From Alvin, the Indian guy:

Imagine the start I got when I saw the "Where is Alvin the Indian guy" question. Here I am! I found out about this post this morning and I"ve been devouring it all day!!!!

Who wants to know? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

You can reach me at alvinjames@yahoo.com.
My mobile no is: +919820122388.

I am looking for:
Mrs Gail Kirby
Dr Kent Sutorious
Pastor Ed Lutz (the Nazi who will go to heaven)
Joey Letourneay
Ray Fernandes
David Tomb
John Williams
Cassandra Christofore (now Crawford)
John Lowell
Shannon and Jennifer Crawford and their mum
Chantel-Marie Lewis
Mark Minnicello

[Alvin J Saldanha (210.18.25.150)]

To Valefor:

Your post says: I am no longer with GGWO because of my differences with Karl Silva.

Thats true: I like to believe that I am now a member of Christ's church. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I hope this doesn't offend your sense of loyalty to GGWO.

When I left in 1995, there were 14 people I had brought to church: I left them clear instructions that Karl Silva was the pastor, that they should continue with him, pray for me, and I left.

Yes, I had a heart attack in July 2000. No, God did not punish me.
Yes, I am very successful. No, Satan is not giving me my success.

To the best of my knowledge, the Bombay church is doing fine. Whaddaya know, maybe that was God's plan.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I left the church in 1995, had a heart attack in 2000, and havent had a heart attack "recently". I smell an attempt to paint a picture that I left the church and got chastised with a heart attack. If you haven't noticed, Pastor Stevens had one this year, and he is still with the church. There goes your theory.

I remember Lenox, Baltimore, the ministry and the school fondly. Whenever I remember their "faults", I remember to look in the mirror and I am reminded of a sense of proportion.

I acknowledge that there are many who were wounded in their association with the ministry. I am not qualified to comment on these instances and people, I can only pray for the multiplication of their newfound life's strength.

For that matter, who are you, dear? One of those cow-eyed things that had a crush on me and became bitter because I didn't give a damn? There were a couple of them .... and boy, hell hath no fury like ....

[Alvin from India (210.18.25.150)]

Shannon:

Reading through the posts again ... IT IS YOU !!!! How is your mum? Jen? Your brothers?
Please write me at alvinjames@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

From another thread...I didnt want people to miss this:


Having read the many entries on the Factnet website I pondered long and hard whether I should say anything regarding my experience with TBS/GGWO. I feel it appropriate, from my own standpoint at least, to write about what God has done for me since my exodus from TBS.

It would be easy for me to implicate the ministry in some of the more sorrowful moments of my life; yes this would be easy to do. Does this mean that there was no guilt in the actions of the church and its leaders? This statement is true, but could be said of any church that has a human at its helm. I must state that in no way do I turn my back on the poor handling of situations and the pain of the people who have suffered in the wake of these bad decisions. The day of reckoning will prove this out, but that battle is not for me to wage. I will allow God to be both sovereign and just in His handling of so great a judgement, as I know He will be with me also.

I left TBS after the scattering of the church following the Doveydenis trial. Like many others I was hurt, wounded and devastated by the unfolding of the events in 1987. My marriage ended up destructing because of my leaving, and my own subsequent failures. The ministry played no role in my failures in the marriage but in my estimation they certainly heralded their own doctrine to their own benefit. This does not negate my own shortcomings, but the teachings of the ministry to couples in such peril does not induce a sense of reconciliation, only division. As far back as I can remember it has been that way, it is probably still that way.

Life does go on after TBS/GGWO. There are a lot of good churches out there, and we all know the fields are white ready to harvest. While working in TBS and SSB, I like many other young men were fascinated with the titles, power and adulationand I inherited a lot of bad habits / misconceptions about leadership. On the other hand I was blessed to have received just as many good habits too. Like any job there are good and bad things we take away with any such experience. I remember a conversation I had with one of my brothers when I first left TBS. He sat me down and asked me what I thought the differences were from serving the church vs. working in corporate America. I told him there is a huge difference between the two. He told me, in a big brother fashion, to grow up and quit being so naïve, there is no difference.

Now we all know that there should be vast differences between the two, but I have come to accept that there really isn’t. Sometimes people look to the church to do things for them that they should only do for themselves. As Christians we are to walk on a higher plain, however we must also be aware that we are all human, able to do great things for God and do tremendous harm in the same breath. But let’s move on from that topic for now.

So much has happened in my own life since 1987. I have experienced both triumphs and terrible heartbreak. I celebrate my life as a father, and strive to be the best father I can be. It is my privelege to serve in a wonderful body of believers here in New Hampshire. I am thankful that they are gracious enough to allow me the opportunity to continue to develop the gifts God has given me. I am also thankful for the abundance of friends and family God has blessed my daughters and I. I shudder to think where I would be without their unending support and love.

I used to wonder why God allows some things in this life. Then my mind reflects back on the lives of Joseph, Daniel, John, Paul, Peter and of course Jesus himself, to name a few. All these men suffered greatly for righteousness sake. It is our privelege to suffer (rigtly) in our pursuit of ‘being like Him.’ My only hope is that I have served the Lord in a manner that glorifies both He and His Kingdom.

What will become of the ministry? Who knows? That was a problem I concerned myself with many years ago. I am not there, none of my family members are there, and God will do what He will. I am not sorry I left. There are real issues that abound under any work associated with Carl Stevens. In the eyes of those faithful to Carl these words are anathema, and maybe they are, so be it. However, truth will not be left to lie in the streets. I liken leaving the ministry to Andy Dufresne, the main character in ‘The Shawshank Redemption.’ It can be done and once in a while we can even leave with something of value.

I am thankful to see so many being able to use this venue to tell their stories. It is sad to see some so threatened by this display to interject their diseased thought processes. I have long admired Jack and Lee Leonard, their friendship, kindness and wisdom have been instrumental for me. It isn’t about the ministry; thankfully, it is about serving God. It is about finding our way on the journey.

Any of those who would like to correspond further I will leave my e-mail address. I regret that I am unable to follow this board with any consistency. Being a single parent, having a business and serving in my church leaves little time for me these days. I will correspond with any that so desire to tell their own story or need to a listening ear along the way.

God Bless You All

Tom Lloyd

TPLinNH@AOL.COM
Psalm 48:18 – ‘For this God, is our God forever and ever; he will be our guide even to the end.’

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Hello Alvin
Glad to have you join the discussion. I have fond memories of your zest for living.....like when you were sliding down a snow covered hill outside our apartment on the Lenox campus in your shoes! The kids thought your were hilarious. I got to enjoy a man from India enjoying our NE weather.....I still marvel at how God knits hearts together from all over. It's so wonderful.

Glad to hear you are in good health now. God Bless
Lee

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

Hi,Alvi
It is so good to hear from you after so many years!
Your sense of humor is still the same.I am one of those" cow eyed things "that had an affair with you(although it did not last long,what was it 2 one night standers...)and yes I got upset with you,but I still love you .I guess you do still worship cows,because you always told me you loved my eyes(cow eyed??!!)And no I am not a thing but a human being.V

[Anonymous (141.157.26.239)]

Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 06:35 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me get this straight at the beginning:

It has been over 9 years since I attended church in any sense of the word. You may not be too far from the truth when you conclude that I am, technically, an "ex-member" and a "backslider".

When I reached Lenox in 1985, I arrived as a student of The Stevens School Of The Bible, and began worshipping at the The Bible Speaks Church. Those first early days will be one of the most cherished memories of my life. By the time I graduated in 1989, from what was then the Maryland Bible College and Seminary, I had amassed 4 years of never-to-be-equalled experiences and memories that will forever be the watershed moments of my life.

Soon after I arrived, "THE" court case happened: I was a first hand witness to the spectacle. Regardless of where I am today vis-a-vis my personal standing with the church, I never stop reminding myself that I was one of the many hundreds (if not thousands) of unknown recipients of the generosity of Ms Dovydenas. Because she had carefully mandated the apportioning of the money, and one of the areas was missions education, my foreign-student scholarship, my textbooks, Bibles, notebooks, accomodation, meals were all a part of that scholarship. If Pastor Stevens is guilty, then I am guilty. Being one of the smallest fish in the pond does NOT make me "innocent" while he is "guilty". I often ask myself: where are all those dozens and dozens of foreign students who were equal recipients of this generosity? I don't hear from them!!!!

Many, many people experienced much elevation in their living condition thanks to the money that suddenly flowed into the church. Very few of those voices have been raised in defense of Stevens. I was stunned to learn much later that the entire board of the church had voted to accept the monies. Something in me doesn't like the way one individual is still being flogged for it.

I gained much from the organisation that Stevens founded. I gained while I was there, I gained later, I kept gaining even after I left that church. I have lost count over the years of the number of times I have had occasion to mention, or acknowledge, that I trained to be a Pastor and Missionary, and how many times people immediately extended to me a moment of special acknowledgement or a special gesture of consideration. I have to acknowledge that I have stated, unabashedly of my Bible School training, and I have enjoyed the respect extended to me for that. And every single time it happens, I still wonder how I will every repay Stevens.

To give you an idea of the bewilderment I feel when I came across this post, know that Pastor Jack Leonard was the President of the Stevens School Of the Bible. He was also my teacher in many of the classes. I adore the man still: a cultured, intelligent, informed, principled gentleman. I looked up to deeply. I admired him as much as I loved him, and to be able to know and love a man you admire is a privilege indeed. Pastor Leonard's brother (who was a part of the original missions team to Bombay in 1983) now pastors a strong, stable, accurate and thriving church in Calcutta India (where, incidentally, I am not welcome, reasons unknown, so typical of this church).

2. Much is being made of the extra-marital affair a senior member of the leadership is supposed to have had. Since the "husband" in the triangle has been identified on this post, (in a salacious little tidbit that attempts to paint Alan as a homosexual), I must say my bit.
I know Alan and Margaret Lang personally. Both were, and are two of my most cherished friends. Alan was my "big brother" to me while we were in school, he was one of the people who treated this penniless foreign student with generosity and graciousness. I went along on their first dates, as Alan's 'chaperone'! (Bible School rules!!) I was in their wedding in Massachusetts. I have been a guest of the Lang's in Pittsburgh, and the Hadleys in Mass. I was a permanent fixture at Alan and Margaret's apartment in Baltimore when I was in Bible School, and when I returned for the annual international conventions later. I have very exhaustive information on the unfortunate chapter they went through. Today, I have great regard for their marriage, and the intelligent, forgiving, committed manner in which they found a new footing together in the grace of God. Alan is a man of tremendous courage, presence of mind and a gigantic heart of love for Margaret. He weathered a terrifying time, a time of anguish and despair. I still count Alan and Margaret as blessings of friendship God gave me in his boundless grace. I watch with dismay as GGWO church members are now slandering Alan (I know the difference between slandering and maligning, I use the word slander with precision). This is NOT an advisable way in which to defend the ministry. You fools. There are dozens and dozens of people who are aware of what happened, and whose sympathies are with Alan and Margaret, for genuine reasons. Your abuse of Alan smacks of guilt, and simply PROVES HIS INNOCENCE. You wring your hands so dramatically about being "wronged" and "misquoted" and "lied about", and YOU DO PRECISELY THAT!!!!! In this one post alone, you have ruined whatever credibility the church could have laid claim to in this matter.
I wonder if Stevens is even aware that there are idiots posting slander on the net in a supposed defense of the church. When I was in the church, I remember looking at the idiotic posturings of people who were painting themselves as "loyal supporters" and asking myself: With friends like these, who needs enemies?
One last word to those of you at GGWO who looked down on me for staying friends with Alan and Margaret: I will say what I learnt to say while at church: See you at the Bema seat!!!!

3. So much excitement about "painkillers". Give the poor gentleman a break, he is old, he has lavished an entire life on building a worldwide organisation that brought so much to thousands of people across the world. He has entrusted so much to so many, being repeatedly stabbed in the back, betrayed and vilified. (Maybe, in not staying the course, I am one of those who effectively abandoned him. ) His achievements far far far outstrip whatever weaknesses he may have (and I know I have more weaknesses that he does). Surely you must know that a man of this calibre of achievement and import cannot be felled with some pathetic shreiking about a few pills?

But the point I want to make is this: I was NOT blind to the faults and foibles of the human beings that comprised the leadership of GGWO. For that matter, I left the church for that reason!!! Maybe I was one of the few who quarelled with virtually every Pastor I reported to in any manner or form: I was the classic rebellious man. But many of the pastors there, the "leadership", loved me unconditionally, they laughed lovingly at my idiosyncracies, they took me to their homes and fed me big, hot, homecooked dinners, their families treated me as one of them, they gave me gifts, they helped me get through the 4 exacting years of Bible College. God Bless them for what they did for me. To each and every one of the posts here that so eagerly finds fault with these men, the one thing I have to say in their defense is that I am in all certainty a bigger sinner than all of them put together.

I find myself in a strange position today: many of the people who I would have like to express my heartfelt gratitude to are no longer with the ministry, but are leading considerable Christian lives on their own! Pastor Jack Leonard, Pastor Kent Sutorious, Mrs Gail Kirby, Pastor Alan Knapp. I refuse to think of them as "left" or "gone", I am as "left" or "gone" if not more so! They were the ministry's ministering angels to me then, and they are bright, shining memories today. But then again, a considerable clutch of people who are part of that loving and nurturing band are still with the church: Pastor Robinson, Pastor Schaller, Pastor Veader, Dr Lewis, Pastor Glenn Cannon .... and I remember them with enormous gratitude and affection too.

I left the church because of a set of disillusionments and disappointments, but I never, ever forgot that whatever their shortcomings, Stevens and his organisation gave me the 11 best years of my early life. In many many ways I am the better man for knowing them.

I have no idea how to repay them, but I will try. Unlike the so-called loyal members and supporters of the church (among whom I do not count myself, I might add), I will sign this post with my name, and my email address, so that in the sight of all the world, you will know me not as "Anonymous" but for who I am. Because when this church and these men loved me, they did not love me and help me as "Anonymous" but as:

Alvin James Saldanha
Class of 89, Honours student
alvinjames@yahoo.com

P.S: TO EX-MEMBERS OF GGWO: Please don't waste my time with supplying "proofs" you think I should have. I have a list of my own. I am also in possession of the world's most exhaustive list of MY OWN sins and shortcomings, and I peruse it frequently to keep my sense of proportion.

TO CURRENT MEMBERS OF GGWO:
1. Please do not write to me. You bore me. Most of you are frauds.
2: My favourite brand of beer is Fosters, I love red wine, and I enjoy a good cigar. Thought I'd spare you all the inconvenience of maligning me. And please don't bother accusing me of sexual improprieties: I'm the kind of intelligent, virile, alpha male your flaky little Christian wife fantasises about.

[Sam Spade (201.129.145.32)]

Somebody asked about Pr. Cassidy.

I googled him and found out he is painting in some town in Vermont, apparently living quite the bohemian lifestyle, if you can picture that.

[Sharon Mack (69.16.68.2)]

Hello Alvin, my best friend in the whole wide world (Bonz), Sha (my lovely daughter) and Roberta (one of the BEST writers I know)!

Well Alvi! You have found "Mum." I remember you at my table with very fond memories and would welcome you again with open arms. I still have the photo of you with the huge turkey drumstick in front of your handsome face (and until today I thought you were a virgin...ha ha hee hee!). I also have photos of you at Sha's graduation party with the girls and the boys.

Philip is now 25 and has had two heart attacks. He is in the Coast Guard now but will soon leave. Patrick is coming back to Pittsfield to go to college (BCC) and, yes, I am still in the Berkshires. I am white haired and have put on a few pounds but I am still me.

I have 4 (yes, 4) grandchildren...can you believe it.

I don't think about the ministry too much anymore. I left due to an argument with God (can you believe the audacity of such a thing) but it turned out well and my faith is strong and healthy. His shoulders were broad enough for the both of us as he carried me down the path until I was strong enough to walk again on my own.

I feel much the same as Tom Lloyd and I remember him as a very young pastor back in the day. Tom, you sound healthy and in a good place with your life.

Someone asked about Ken Alpren. I found his email address on the internet a few years ago and he was in Florida pastoring in a Messianic ministry and going back and forth to Chili with his lovely Peruvian wife that he met while we were together in Nashville, Tennesee. I believe they had two or three children between them. We were suppose to meet once when he was traveling North but it was during the time of my father's illness and eventual death and so I was unable to meet with him. I was very sad about both events.

I do not see the Gardner's much but my son Patrick, who is a drummer and was in a local band saw their son from time to time as John's son is also a musician. They graduated Jr. High together. Can't remember if they went to the same highschool or not but know that they saw each other occasionally on the music set.

Glad Sha told me about this...God bless everyone!

Big Sha aka Mum

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Hey Sharon!! It has been fun catching up with where our old frineds disappeard to....glad to see you posting here!

Roberta

[Sharon Mack (69.16.68.2)]

Whoa Alvin! You go guy! I couldn't agree more (except for the crack about the pastor's wives....I wouldn't know about such things). I like the way you put things....very well said! Amen and amen!

Mum!

[Sharon Mack (69.16.68.2)]

Hey, 'Berta!

Good to be here and it has been good to catch up and read all the postings (even some of the negetive stuff). I guess it needs to be put out there....I don't agree with it necessarily but I wouldn't stand in anyone's way that felt it was needed (unless it was hurtful to the innocent).

We meet in many venues don't we!

Sharon

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Oh Alvin!!! I can hardly believe we get to talk to you again!!! You are so funny!! I would love to find some of those same people!! As soon as I saw you were on there this morn, I had to call mom!! We think of you often!! You MUST come visit!!! I will email you soon!! Much love!

Shannon

Hi mom!!!

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Bob Brinton,
Thank you so very much for your kind words about my dear friend John Gardner. I wish you all well, and I do remember you with fondness.

[Sharon Mack (69.16.68.2)]

Hi Shannon, fancy meeting you here....been doing a lot of reading on this sight but will keep my opinions and thought for later.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Sharon,

Did you work for Jim Williams in 1987?

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

Shannon and Sharon,you must know me ,Alvin and me went out for just a very short while way back then.Why don't you confirm what I said ?Well if you really don't remember I may tell you who I am in my next post.( hintremember the times we went out for icecream...?)

[WJHUNT (216.227.166.241)]

Hi everyone, been reading about all the lost people. It is nice to see where people are now. Some might know me alot won't. I graduated in the class of 79. was a basketball player for the school along with Paul and Steve Stevens. also Shaun Redgate.at the time Bill Alexson was also there and playing with us.
I lived in Springfield under Steve Stratus, who also played. when I left it was for personal reasons,although to this day I still feel the effects of my time there both positive and negitive.
I now live in Lewiston, Me. where I have been now for twenty years. I am doing great, life is full for me and getting better all the time. I have two wonderfull girls 16, and 13,that live with me and a beautiful 23yr old that is from my time in Springfield.
I sincerly hope that every one will find the peace that has been searched for throughout each one of these forums. It took me a long time but I have. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

Sincerly,

William J. Hunt

[Shannon (152.163.253.102)]

To Anon 68.34 6:16 pm-What did you say?? I think I do remember you, we went to the soft ice cream place in Pittsfield??

Shannon

[regina (149.174.164.83)]

shannon and Sharon,

were you ever in Pastor Joel Freeman's church?

[Anonymous (63.170.71.99)]

What happened to the giant Sal Perron? He used to manage Fokine.

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Regina-Was just talking to my mom (she is still in Mass and I in MD) and she asked me if anyone had mentioned Joel Freeman. His church is actually where we came from! He baptized me! I believe my mom started going to meetings when they were still flying Pastor Freeman in from Mass.

Also a note to KDuhamel-Mom (Sharon has no computer at home, only at work) so she told me to tell you yes she did work for Jim William then and would she know who you were? She also asked if you remembered Bob Hotchkiss?

Its funny my mom and I spent an hour on long distance remembering many people we love and have lost touch with throught the years. There are so many others we would love to know how they are doing!!

I still have had no one respond to my questions about the Quirks????

Shannon

[Anonymous (207.7.201.222)]

Does anyone know if Elizabeth Grady is still in?

[Alvin (210.18.25.150)]

Dear Anonymous (68.34.121.13)

Would you identify yourself please? We had two one-night stands at an ice-cream parlour? How exciting. I cannot for the life of me recall it.

Alvin
alvinjames@yahoo.com

[Bob Brinton (141.154.188.162)]

Is Jim Hennessy still in GG? He always seemed like someone who wasn't fooled by what was going on, sort of detached from it and yet respected. I also wonder about Bruce Dunbar and Patty Dykty.
Others I would like to contact if they can be are Ed Chute, Leon DeVoid, Ron Kelly and Steve Quinlan. Anyone have email addresses for any of them? Bob

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

*LOL* @ Alvin!!!

Roberta

[Alvin (210.18.25.150)]

Roberta:

*LOL* at Alvin!!! ???????

Why, pray?

[margo (205.188.117.20)]

bob brinton

there is information on where ron kelly and steve quinlan is on this thread but i dont have time to scroll above to find it for you... you can look... tho. its there. ed chute boy what a blast from the past, he ran the first bible study on cape cod when i received jesus. leon devoid too... a name i would never have dug up but sure do remember the guy.

[Anonymous (68.38.195.85)]

where is john vanbuckwald, doug brooks,joe cerquitella,steve monti kelly coldwell,kim carlson,pat sullivan, john sullivan

[Anonymous (198.70.0.62)]

Ed Chute lives in Casco Maine and is going strong!
He does not have Email but we can give you his phone number at ming@truevine.net

[Jack Brown (70.16.11.58)]

I started a continuation board for the benefit of those with dial-up connections. See Main Menu for "WHERE DID THEY GO? II"

Jack

[Gary Labbe (198.70.0.62)]

Bob Brinton,
I can't believe you remembered my Gustav Mahler T-shirt! I had totally forgotten. Remembering the culture (or lack thereof)of 1977 TBS, that T-shirt must have really stood out.
If you ever have a chance to hear Mahler's Fifth Symphony in live concert, don't miss it. It is an experience you'll never forget. There is a good chance it will be on the roster at Tanglewood in the summer of 2005.
By the way, Heather left the e-mail under anonymous a couple of messages up. That's our e-mail in case you might have felt uncomfortable about e-mailing an unknown. I visited with Edward and Gloria a few months ago. They're doing great.
God Bless,
Gary

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Leon Devoid has spent some time in the hoosegow out in California, divorced from wife Sheila...she lives in Redding.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

what is hoosegow?

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

JAIL

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Roberta:

*LOL* at Alvin!!! ???????

Why, pray?

I was chuckling over your remark to Anon 68:
"Would you identify yourself please? We had two one-night stands at an ice-cream parlour? How exciting. I cannot for the life of me recall it."

Roberta

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

why was Leon Devoid in jail?

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Spoke to Sheila (nee O'Donnell) a few years ago as I remember I think it was for drugs.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Bob Brinton:
You can find Steven Quinlan in New Jersey. He is a Presbyterian Church (USA) pastor--(not the conservative evangelical one PCA). Get hold of your local PCUSA presbytery office--they have a manual with all the addresses in it. He went to Princeton because he fell in love with the theology of Karl Barth. He describes himself as a "post-modernist."

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Sheila was one of my first roommates in South Berwick. That is very sad to hear

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

We used to joke about how Sheila's mom, a devout Irish Catholic used to address her when she was angry, "Mother o' God, Sheila O'Donnell." She was always a great friend to me, too, and she was as beautiful inside as she was without. She sent me a postcard when I was on the mission field, announcing her wedding and expressing her great joy to be marrying a man of God. I can't remember which of us married first, but we always joked about being in so many weddings--other peoples. We, and Cathy Nihart, used to take baggies in our pockets to take home food from the receptions of all the weddings.

[Anonymous (68.34.121.13)]

YES YES YES
two one night stands at the icecream parlor ,you remember that is awesome....!!!
I remember that we started wrestling and ended up in the big icecream tub ,we were laughing so hard then we looked at each other and saw we were both covered with icecream;well that night I ate the most icecream I ever had ,especially the nuts that were in the icecream.........!rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Mamasita (I learned that in Chili) I am your old friend Carl, remember me,I paint now contact me at http://www.artfart4u or http://www.hairykrishnabutts

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

please stop posting your filth here

[Bob Brinton (151.203.188.73)]

It's sad about Leon Devoid. I never knew him personally; but I remember the messages I heard him give were always all grace. He was like a breath of fresh air. Well, his state now does not negate the value of those memories. God's in the business of bringing people back. Let's expect things. If you ever see this, Leon, I love you and appreciate what you've been for me in the past. Bob

[Bob Brinton (151.203.188.73)]

Cordell, As to Steve Quinlan: I've never read Barth, and am not into trying to categorize and box people's thinking. I seem to recall Barth as in the liberal theologian camp, maybe explaining away miracles and watering things down? The only thing I found in searches before I grew impatient and gave up was something about Steve speaking out against the possibility of the government going to war with Iraq. I think politics is the art of deceiving and taking advantage of the people, myself; and try to avoid talking about it for the most part. Anyway; what I wanted to communicate to him was that in the messages he preached leading up to his leaving TBS, I thought he became much more loving and humane. He had always been brilliant, but I liked the direction he seemed to be taking at that point. Next thing I knew he was gone; and of course you couldn't ask about people who had left. If you got any answer at all it would be likely to be something you didn't want to hear and just possibly inaccurate. Bob

[Anonymous (216.183.185.140)]

Where is T.J. Hustler ?

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Please post on thread "Where Did They Go? II".

[VALEFOR for ALVIN (202.63.181.254)]

Hi ALVIN I JUST MENTIONED YOU HAVE LEFT GGWO.I AM NOT IMPLYING YOUR HEART ATTACK WAS A CHASTISEMENT!!!!!!.I know your heart dear!!!. I was often impressed with your wonderfull messages and your bible studies you were LOADED MAN. By the way IAM A GUY I HAVE NO CRUSH ON YOU IAM HETEROSEXUAL!!!!!!!.Take care I have no hassles about your succeses.I was just mentioning what I heard so please dont get judgemental on me GOD BLESS YOU.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Bultmann was the de-mythologizer. Barth was neo-orthodox. Gee, I'm sure that helps don't it.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.187.180)]

I'm more into R.A. Lafferty and P.K. Dick myself. These people that can't laugh at themselves aren't much fun. Bob

[Anonymous (64.91.163.71)]

Does anyone know if John D. Thomas and Patty are still in? Boy, I loved and missed them when I left .......... again, how sad! Oh, and I remember someone asking about Wendell and Donna Williams. I was listening to a Christian radio station one day, and who should I catch? You guessed it, Wendell and Donna. They have a church in NY (maybe in Albany, or near there???) and the message was really good ... so normal and healthy.
Deb

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Please post on Where Did They Go II thread. Too many post here for dial-up users. Thanks.

[Anonymous (68.55.83.36)]

To 051 163. The is no PASTOR Joel Freeman anymore. He remarried the woman most thought he might have been fooling around with before he left Laurie. He has a business in The Baltimore area. He even has a web page. He was planning for awhile to leave Laurie. His brave overworked Pastor under him blew the whistle. He was given a chance to resign. HE DID NOT LEAVE ON HIS OWN ACCORD, just in case you hear that.He was ordained once by CS then again when he appeared to break relationship with GG.Neither seemed to TAKE???? I believe it was all a show. I think he and CS are still tight He and his new wife may love happily ever after but I doubt in HEAVEN.

[Anonymous (68.55.83.36)]

All, How did Tammy get pregant with someone else's child.I thought that NO TOUCH LOVE was the teaching?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Please post on WHERE DID THEY GO? Thread 3.

[Anonymous (68.50.125.89)]

To 68.55.83.36: You are so uninformed about Joel Freeman that it is laughable. You are mixed up and misinformed about a number of things.

Joel Freeman left GGWO with as about as much class as anyone who has ever left. Regardless how he left, GGWO still took some wicked shots at him in rap sessions behind closed doors. Joel hasn't regretted the decision to leave GGWO for even one second.

Joel's exit from GGWO substantiates the reality that it is impossible to leave GGWO, without the GGWO machine chewing you up and then spitting you out. You become a perceived threat to Carl if you are no longer serving his purposes. This scenario is familiar to anyone who has left GGWO from a leadership position.

Joel's own flesh and blood sister and brother-in-law (Nancy and Bruce Brown, So. Berwick TBS) haven't talked with him for well over a decade. They claimed, in writing, that he is deceived. It's all very sad and disturbing.

Carl knows all about it and has never done anything to intervene. Carl hasn’t intervened, because if he had intervened, Bruce and Nancy would respond. This is a systemic, institutional problem. Even though it would never be publicly stated as such, to Carl it seems to be a badge of honor and loyalty because Bruce and Nancy have chosen to cut off a member of their own family for being “deceived”. The GGWO family is always first.

In the mid-80s Joel talked privately with Carl about some things that were bothering him. Carl had just moved down to Baltimore after the court trial and Joel wanted to address some issues and concerns. It became very clear to Joel that nothing had really changed. That's when he informed his congregation of the break from TBS/GGWO.

Joel once told me that after he left TBS/GGWO a number of TV shows/local TV stations and newspapers (Oprah, Sun, etc.) wanted him to comment on Carl Stevens and GGWO, but he declined every request.

For a number of years after he left GGWO he was pastoring under the Calvary Chapel (Costa Mesa, CA) banner and he thoroughly enjoyed his time with Chuck Smith and the entire organization. His ordination papers were with Calvary Chapel after leaving TBS.

I have known Joel for quite some time and can attest to the reality that he decided to establish and maintain a forward look since leaving TBS/GGWO.

Check out his web site -- http://www.freemaninstitute.com -- and you will see that he now has quite an international influence, facilitating corporate training seminars, writing books and producing films. He once told me that he is taking his "pastor's heart into the business world" and he is making quite a remarkable impact.

Plus he has a huge heart for Intercultural Missions. His latest film (Return To Glory: The Powerful Stirring of the Black Man) is touching millions of lives for the Lord and his books are in 26 languages.

While he was pastoring in Baltimore, his assistant pastor was neither "brave" nor "overworked". This assistant pastor (who has since moved away from the area) was told months later by the church leadership not to come back to the church because of his double-minded, divisive spirit. Joel's previous marriage had its challenges, but Joel chose not to publicly or privately speak ill of or harm his ex-wife.

By the way, Joel resigned from pastoring the church. I have read a letter, written by the subsequent pastor of that church (the letter was unsolicited by Joel), which states the investigated truth about what happened, how it happened and the church’s position on the situation. The letter states that Joel handled things in a Biblical manner. To give you an idea regarding the warmth felt for him at his former church, last Fall Joel was invited back to speak. I was told that it was a wonderful reception by the current congregation and leadership -- many whom were leaders at the same church when he had resigned back in 1993. I hope that this helps to illuminate you regarding the facts.

[muskyrose (64.12.117.20)]

I will add to what 68.59.125.89 has said.

Jeff and I worked with Joel in Columbia for 6 years. We helped start up the Columbia ministry. Joel Freeman was and Is an amazing man. I have known him for over 30 years since So. Berwick and NEVER once have I ever known him to be anything Less than honorable. Which is why he ended up leaving & severing ties with ggwo.

As for breaking his marriage vows.. it was NEVER he that broke them. GOT IT? HE wasn't the one who CHEATED.

And as for his present wife. They Were NOT fooling around while he was married NOR while she was married.

Both Joel and Shirley are two of the most loving people I know. They love God and have suffered greatly because of others lies yet they refuse to stoop to the level of their accusers.

And yes, do check out his web site http//www.freemaninstitute.com it is very interesting you can even drop him an e-mail from there.

>>>>>>>>>>>>---------Bonnie.

[Anonymous (66.98.226.42)]

Who cares??

OK maybe about a few TBS folks its interesting.

GGWO's are even stranger.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Joel Freeman is my friend. His marriage to Shirley was as honorable as any in the world. He had enough character to go face to face with Carl Stevens concerning mutltiple indiscretions. He has always, as have all of us who've gone been bad mouthed and trashed by the Stevens Gestapo.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

So true Cordell, even if one tries to leave on a good note Carl makes sure in the end "he defeated his enemies".. and who are his enemies? Anyone, friend or family member that does not bow at his feet.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Yea just ask Paul!

[Anonymous (66.98.226.42)]

Tag Team this effort would you?

[joshua morin (205.188.117.20)]

any one know what kelly gibbons is up to these days? i havent seen her in years. joshua morin

[margo (205.188.117.20)]

what about martha gibbons kellys mom?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Does anyone know what happened to the Kline Family???

[Anonymous (4.139.9.32)]

Unfortunately, I think they've innocently followed P. Paul to Havre de Grace to an "affliated" church [a.k.a. split off] of G.G.W.O. homebase.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Why do you say unfortunately??

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Bill Kline has a lot of wisdom and he doesn't put up with a bunch of BS. I know that he and Pastor Stevens were pretty good friends.

[pastflash (200.74.17.126)]

Heather,

"Take another sip and see,
How really delightful it can be.
First time through it may seem bad,
But More and MORE it MUST BE HAD!"

Ha

[joker (200.74.64.33)]

Margo, if you read this, go to the Music Ministry Annnette...blah, blah, thread. There is a great handful of very funny posts within the last hour that will make you laugh.

[RobinOHerin (24.48.249.186)]

Hey,
Robin Rothfeld-Clark-O'Herin here. I just fell into this site. And I didn't just fade away. I am still in the Berkshires and I am a gospel/blues musician with 2 cds and more to come, Lord willing. I am happily married and going on with God. Bob and LuAnn are very active with an outreach in a Blues Cafe here--it is very exciting.
Margaret Tavares is married with kids and lives somewhere in NJ.
Hey Margo, it is good to read all the stuff you have written here.
Warmly,
Robin

[Bob Brinton (141.154.186.72)]

bump for Dave Carson

[gary (gary)]

Hi, Gary & Rindy LeMaster are in Denver, Co. I saw them in 92.
Donna & Wendell Williams live in N.Y.
The Redimarker's live in, I believe, N.C.
Willy & Sheila Werren also live in Balt and are die-hards with GG.
Bill & Elizabeth Fischer lived in Ill, I saw them in 86.
For those that went to the Stevens Christian H.S. n Scarborough , Me & Lenox, Ma. I have 132 names, addresses, emails and/or ph #s. You can email me at gbaril47@hotmail.com to get any or all of what I have.
I am Gary Baril Jr., my father was the business mngr from 69-8?

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

Wowweeeee! Over the weekend, I just happened to run into this site and let me tell you...blew my mind! By the way, I am Joni Fortin. Not sure what I could contribute here since I left TBS/GGWO 10 years ago. After reading all the posts and much thinking about this subject, all that came to me was 'Dual Realties'. From the early 80's 'conspiracy' thru the Betsy scene, and countless other scenarios, two stories were always unfolding: The church's spin vs. REALITY. (Much like when the Bill Clinton/Monica story hit the news, they would be talking about how aweful it was while showing Bill peering thru some mud house jail window with Nelson Mandala.) I've been apart of the church's spin and have been on the receiving end of its spin. The valley that lies in the middle is the definately the most dark and devasting place. I've made BIGGGG mistakes, more than most, but here's the end of the story, 'SHE MAKES BIG COME BACKS'!!

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Joni,
Welcome!!! I look forward to hearing from you. Start a new thread or jump on my new one about closure. This one is very long.
For Him,
Dave

[minutus (minutus)]

Welcome, Joni. Just tell your story - there is always someone who will benefit.

Dave Carson

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hi My Dear Friend!!!

I am so glad to connect with you Joni... I can honestly say if it was not for you I would not be finally free from GGWO. You, my dear friend, were the person I most connected with so many years ago in Denver. That friendship has gotten me through some of my most darkest times. We last spoke after your move over a year ago and so much has happened since then. Joni, you are one of the most vibrant and gifted and godly women I have ever known. You always had your own individual walk with God. You always demanded answers and questioned things. You gave me your strength many many times and also a shoulder to cry on. I know that GGWO did everything possible to crush that spirit in you but they could not! I love you very much.. Jeannie

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Hi Joni, so great to "see" you here. I am sure the kids are grown by now. How is your family? Your sister? and you mom and aunt? I haven't seen them in so long since I left over a year ago. I don't know if you will remember me. this is Nancy the lady in the wheelchair from Baltimore. Anyway welcome.

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

Nancy, i think you have me mixed up with someone, I dont have a sister and doubt you know my mom and aunt lol Thanks Dave and Dave and Nancy for the warm welcome. Jeannie, how great to reconnect again...one "doctrine" you and I learned well, laughter!!! oh wait, we didnt learn that we made that up ourselves. As they say on the streets "I got ur back", always have and always will!!!!

[lee (lee)]

Isn't it wonderful how true friendship can survive so much! You are true blue Joni....always have been and I'd say you always will be.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Welcome!

I remember there was a doctrine booklet written by a person named Joni Fortin years ago...about church conspiracy, I think it was.

Are you the same Joni?

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

Lee
No truer words have been spoken..true friendship expands one relationship with God, you and Jack have exhibited that to me over and over and over again. A bazillion 'thank you's"

RJ
Yeppers, that would be me. Wow, that was over 20 years ago. Thanks for the welcome!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Joni, It was great talking to you tonight. I went through two portable phones before they both went dead and we had to say good-bye...

And you are so right, we laughed our way through two decades of peaks and valleys... God had our backs, my ya-ya sister!

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

yep your right I was thinking of Joni, Rhonda's sister. sorry but I remember your name.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Where’s Ethel Diggs been? Last I heard, she was rootin’ around Rome New York, she didn’t seem to get that no one wanted her around! She was trying to give away her cloths…ones that smelt by the way! Any truth to the rumor of her shakin’ up with a white man named the “Skipper” out West?