GREATER GRACE WORLD OUTREACH INC BY LAWS

[Anonymous (63.27.0.121)]

Here are the requested GGWO By-Laws found on Graceways.org

Apparently there are three main serving branches within the governance of GGWO: a Board of Elders, Board of Trustees and an Executive Committee.

Hope this information is helpful.
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ARTICLE I - NAME AND LOCATION:

The name of this institution shall be GREATER GRACE WORLD OUTREACH, INC. (hereinafter referred to as the "Church") with address(es) at such location(s) as may be determined from time to time by the Board of Trustees within the State of Maryland. The Trustees may also authorize such offices as may be deemed desirable in other states or countries. The Church may also be known as THE GREATER GRACE CHURCH.

ARTICLE II - PURPOSE:

The purpose of this Church shall be to carry forward the orthodox, historic, Biblical, Christian faith as one ministry in accordance with the Statement of Faith. Incorporated as part of these By laws herein, and in accordance with the policies and guidelines of The Board of Trustees (the "Board").

Further, it is the express purpose of this Church to Minister the Word of God to the Faithful: conduct regular religious worship services through various forms of ministries; promote and encourage, through the ministeries of the organization, cooperation with other organizations God's Word; spread the Word of the Gospel by ministering to the faithful through seminars, broadcast media, literature, and other forms of audio; to maintain a local church as well as an international church vision through missionary outreach, coordination with other organizations, and other means; to conduct schools for the training of students of all age groups, as well as ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; to license and ordain qualified individuals for service in the ministry; and any and all other such things and activities which many serve to promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ under the direction of the Holy Spirit and in accoradance with the provisions as set forth in the Holy Bible.

ARTICLE III - GOALS AND OBJECTIVES:

1. To seek out the lost and win them to the Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour according to the Gospel of the Holy Bible.

2. To provide comprehensive training of the Bible, each and all desirings found therein, and a working application of such in Christian personal life experiences.

3. To provide an opportunity for such person to engage in a world wide vision of going into all the world for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

4. To prepare, teach, and train students with the highest degree of Biblical competence possible.

5. To foster Christian culture in terms of refinement, appreciation, social attitudes and skills and to develop a compassionate response to social needs in attitude and actions.

ARTICLE IV - BOARD OF ELDERS:

1. The Board of Elders, under the guidance of the Chief Elder, shall exercise overall spiritual growth and leadership of the Church. The Board of Elders shall exercise veto powers, but not direct managerial control, over the Board of Trustees as well as any and all ministries directly or indirectly associated with the Church. They shall be responsible for the appointment of specific leaders of the Church and under such veto authority, shall review all activities and programs of the church to insure that all is done to the glory of our Lord and Saviour in the harmony of the Holy Bible and at the direction of the Holy Spirit.

2. The members of the Board of Elders shall serve in perpetuity unless removed by a majority vote of the full Board of Elders, and then only for one of the following reasons:

a. Their inability to perform their duties and responsibilities due to illness, absence, or other action which may impair their capacity to serve, or

b. Their demonstrated or announced departure from the purposes, goals, objectives, or Statement of Faith as stated herein, or

c. For conduct which would be considered by the remaining members of this Board of Elders to be inappropriate or unbecoming an Elder of this church.

3. A person shall be eligible for appointment to the Board of Elders if he is at least twenty-one (21) yeas of age, has demonstrated maturity in his Christian walk, is a confessed, dedicated, born again Christian evidencing deep spirituality and active love for the work of Christ and holds active ordination as a Pastor in the ministry of Greater Grace World Outreach.

4. Elders shall be appointed to the Board of Elders by the Chief Elder with the concurrence of all the members of the Board of Elders. The number of members of the Board of Elders shall not be limited, however, at no time will there be less than three (3) Elders for the conduct of business.

5. The Board of Elders shall meet as often as necessary in order to fulfill their duties and responsibilities. A majority of those present and voting, as long as no less than three (3) members are present, shall constitute a quorum for any and all business to come before the Board of Elders. Any and all actions taken by the Board of Elders shall reflect the full unreserved consensus of all the members of the Board of Elders present and voting.

6. The Officers of the Board of Elders shall be the Chairman, who shall be the Chief Elder and Pastor of the Congregation, and the Vice Chairman, who shall serve in the absense of the Chairman or his inability to function in his capacity as Chief Elder, and a Secretary, whol shall be responsible for the keeping of all pertinent and relevant records of the Board of Elders, as well as maintain any and all coordination of activities, meetings, and communications of the Board of Elders.

ARTICLE V - GOVERNMENT:

1. This Church shall be managed by a Board of Trustees, which shall have full authority and management of all the affairs of this Church, subject only to veto powers reserved to the Board of Elders of the Church.

2. The Board shall consist of not less than three (3) nor more than twenty-one (21) members. At least fifty percent (50%) shall be Pastors holding active ordination with the Church, or a church of like faith whcih shall be approved by the Board of Elders.

3. The Officers of the Board shall constitute an Executive Committee which shall exercise any and all powers of the Board subject to ratification of the Board at the next regularly scheduled Board meeting.

4. The functions of the Board, in exercising the authority and management of the Church, shall be to establish policy and directives, determine budget limitations, review all fiscal policies and financial matters, approve contractural obligations, review and approve the activities and programs and projects of the church, and to generally provide leadership and guidance in keeping with the purpose, goals and objectives as set forth therein.

5. With the exception of the Chairman, who shall be selected by the Board of Elders of the Church, the Board of Elders shall elect the following Officers from among the duly elected Trustees or the annual meeting, who will serve until the following annual meeting: Vice Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer. These Officers, along with the Chairman, shall comprise the Executive Committee.

ARTICLE VI - EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE:

1. The Executive Committee shall meet as ofen as is convenient and expedient to carry forward the business of the Church in accordance with the policies of the Board, the purposes of the Church, and within the bounds of good reason to act on behalf of the expression of the full Board.

2. All actions of the Executive Committee with respect to actions taken on behalf of the Board shall be presented in summary form to the members of the Board for ratification at the next regularly scheduled meeting of the Board. The Executive Committee shall also promptly notify the Board of Elders of the Church of any and all such actions and shall be responsible for informing the Board of Elders and the Board regularly on the status of the affairs of the Church.

3. A majority of the Executive Committee members shall constitute a quorum for the transaciton of business and members may be polled and/or may cast votes on issues before the Executive Committee by proxy or, by telephone, providing two or more members are privileged to the process

ARTICLE VII - BOARD OF TRUSTEES:

A. MEMBERSHIP OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES

1. Members of the Board shall show evidence of being dedicted, born-again Christians with a deep sense of spirituality and active love for the services of Christ.

2. Members of the Board shall not be less than twenty-one (21) years of age upon commencing their office and shall be of sound mind and body able to serve in the capacity herein.

3. Members of the Board shall ascertain that they are in full agreement with the purposes and goals of the Church, show active interest in its operations, and maintain faithful attention to their responsibilities.

a. Members of the Board shall freely subscribe to the Statement of Faith, believing without reservation in the infallibility and authority of the Scriptures, the Holy Bible.

B. ELECTION OF TRUSTEES:

1. The Trustees shall be elected to the Board of Elders of the Church no less than thirty (30) days prior to the annual meeting of the Church and Trustees so elected shall assume office upon their installation at the annual meeting.

2. With the exception of the Chairman, who shall serve at the pleasure of the Board of Elders, Trustees shall be elected for a one year term of office, and shall serve until their successor has been duly elected and installed.

C. REMOVAL OR RESIGNATION OF TRUSTEES:

1. Trustees may be removed from office by a majority vote of the Board of Elders of the Church for any of the following reasons:

a) Failure to perform responsibilities of their office as herein defined and in accordance with directives of the Board of Elders.

b) Failure to embrace and maintain agreement with the Statements of Faith.

c) Failure to support and agree with the stated goals and purposes of the Church or the directive and policies established by the Board.

2. Prior to such action or removal, the Board of Elders shall cause the Trustees to be notified of such action to be taken at least ten (10) days prior to such action being taken, and provide said Trustees opportunity to appear before the Board of Elders regarding the cause for such action. The decision of the Board of Elders shall be final and effective immediately upon determination.

3. Any Trustee may resign his office or any time by submittng a letter of resignation to the Chairman of the Board or the Board of Elders of the Church.

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Please note the many inconsistencies and manipulation of words to assure Carl H. Stevens, Jr.'s control found within the body of this document. For example...

ARTICLE IV - BOARD OF ELDERS PARAGRAPH SIX (6) no treasurer is mentioned and yet according to paragraph four (4) one of the functions of this board is to "...determine budget limitations, review all fiscal policies and financial matters..." Now read ARTICLE V PARAGRAPH FIVE (5) a reference is given to a Treasurer. What?

I am also curious to know if Carl Stevens is still serving on the Board of Trustee at GGWO because according to their by-law under ARTICLE VII - BOARD OF TRUSTEE paragraph two (2) "...and shall be of SOUND MIND and BODY ABLE TO SERVE IN THE CAPACITY HEREIN."

Doesn't sound look old Carl does it?

There are many more indiscrepancies found within this document so please post any you find and your thoughts in general.

Cheers!

63

[Anonymous (63.27.0.121)]

Ps. I don't know how old these things are since there was no date on them. Also not sure if there are more pages to this document that may have been ommitted; but as far as I know they are legitimate.

[Anonymous (63.27.0.121)]

If this document is necessary to legally incorporate an organization; would it hold up in a court of law as having been followed. Perhaps these may be the grounds to cause GGWO to be investigated IN-DEPTH by an outside, objective source? Please, if anyone with a legal background could comment on this it would be most appreciated. Thanks!

63 [the nice one]

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Arguendo is needed!

[Anonymous (68.34.98.94)]

Are these the original By-Laws drawn up when GGWO firstcame to Baltimore? Or have they been revised since them?

[Anonymous (64.12.113.151)]

Who the hell are the trustees?? Does anyone know? GG is run by Carl Stevens and the elders he has appointed. If I am reading the bylaws correctly the trustees play a huge part in the administration of GG and I don't know who they are or ever heard anyone talk about them administrating anything. Can anyone shed light on "these trustees" and what they do?

[Nancy (141.157.125.237)]

. A person shall be eligible for appointment to the Board of Elders if he is at least twenty-one (21) yeas of age, has demonstrated maturity in his Christian walk, is a confessed, dedicated, born again Christian evidencing deep spirituality and active love for the work of Christ and holds active ordination as a Pastor in the ministry of Greater Grace World Outreach.


Aren't elders supposed to be elected by the congregation?

[Anonymous (141.157.72.224)]

Only in a real church.

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

You've got to be kidding me! This system is set up to protect that old man's sorry ass! He's the Chairman of the Elders, he's above question! Give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a jerk!

[Anonymous (141.157.85.225)]

And to bilk people out of the money they need to feed their kids and pay their bills. And do they have enough faith to provr their allegience to Greater Grace by giving until it really hurts... is that in all grace ministries???

[Anonymous (141.157.85.225)]

also for qualification to be an elder you can't hold leadership accountable by asking them questions.

[Arguendo (64.12.112.171)]

Um, I have to diagram the by-laws to get to understand them, and there's no diagramming on Friday night.

[Anonymous (64.12.112.159)]

Who are the trustees??? Does anyone know??

[Anon Brief (64.12.113.23)]

Arguendo, I find we have similar habits. I had started to diagram the by-laws, but decided to switch into weekend mode instead. LOL.

[Dave (4.156.90.88)]

>>>
ARTICLE V - GOVERNMENT:

1. This Church shall be managed by a Board of Trustees,
which shall have full authority and management of all the affairs of this Church,
subject only to veto powers reserved to the Board of Elders of the Church.
>>>


ARTICLE VII - BOARD OF TRUSTEES:

>>>
a. Members of the Board [e.g. of trustees] shall freely subscribe to the Statement of Faith,
believing without reservation
IN THE INFALLIBILITY AND AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURES,
the Holy Bible.
>>>

The GGWO Statement of Faith says:

>>>
All Scripture contained in the Old and New Testaments is
verbally,
plenarily,
and inerrantly inspired by God.

IT IS THE AUTHORITIVE GUIDE FOR ALL CHRISTIAN UNDERSTANDING, LIFE AND MINISTRY.

We believe in the exact equivalent method translation from the original languages
>>>

After GGWO proclaims their allegiance
"TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURES",
they then acknowledge "up front" on The Grace Hour,
that they are trusting in the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria [in the 2nd century A.D.]
for their teaching that God's name is "Yahweh".

I WONDER WHY GGWO DIDN'T GO TO THE INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURES
FOR THE AUTHORITY FOR THEIR TEACHING THAT GOD'S NAME IS "YAHWEH".


Acts 17:10-11 KJV says:

>>>
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea:
who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,
and searched the scriptures daily,
whether those things were so.
>>>

GGWO needs to prove from the Scriptures that God's name is "Yahweh".

Clement of Alexandria is not recognized as being a man that God raised up to write the Scriptures.

Dave

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

WHO ARE THE TRUSTEES????
IT SEEMS IMPORTANT AFTER READING THE BYLAWS THAT WE DO NOT KNOW THE TRUSTEES. ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY ARE NOT RUNNING THE SHOW AS THE BYLAWS STATE.
DOES ANYONE KNOW??

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Organizational Three Card Monte.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Wasn't Dick Colby a trustee?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Yes he was.

[Anonymous (63.27.13.148)]

Take this new website http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/ for a test drive and see how you like it!

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

To whomever posted the by-laws, would you look at Article V, paragraph 5 and confirm that it was correctly copied.

Thanks.

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

Can't make heads or tails out of these "lie-laws"...but they appear to CYA Carl's caboose! What do you think Arguendo?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Arguendo, Do you have any thoughts on the balance of authority and administration between the elders and the trustees? If I remember correctly the trustees were appointed by Carl and consisted of businessmen of wealth. They had nothing to do with administration or authority but gave the appearance of checks and balances to the outside world looking in. But the bylaws seem to state a very different thing.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

The by-laws are not that special and are probably pretty common for the 80s. There in nothing inherently evil in the way these by-laws are written; however, they do allow for a very small concentration of power. I believe that all of the requirements of the by-laws could be fulfilled by only 5 people.

People who sit on the Board of Trustees in any organization are often powerful and/or wealthy people. That's why they are appointed. They are there to nurture an organization and lend their power to its growth.

Article V, paragraph 5 is not correct, BTW. I downloaded it from graceways.org myself.

[Arguendo (152.163.101.12)]

AB, I do believe that the whole thing can be fulfilled with 4 people, what do you count?

[Anonymous (63.27.85.216)]

To whomever posted the by-laws, would you look at Article V, paragraph 5 and confirm that it was correctly copied.

Thanks.
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Here's a re-type of Article V paragraph five (5) and thanks for your timely input. 63 [the nice one]

With the exception of the Chairman, who shall be selected by the Board of Elders of the Church, the Board shall elect the following officers from among the duly elected Trustees or the annual meeting, who will serve until the following annual meeting: Vice Chairman, Secretary, and Treasurer. These Officers, along with the Chairman, shall comprise the Executive Committee."

Two things struck me Arguendo:

1. "With the exception of the Chairman, who shall be SELECTED by the Board of Elders..."
[Thought the Head Pastor was ALWAYS the Chairman according to Article IV paragraph six (6) "...The Officers of the Board of Elders shall be the Chairman, who shall be the Chief Elder and Pastor of the Congregation..."

2. Also the Vice-Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer "...who will serve UNTIL the annual meeting..." not a word is mentioned about the Chairman of the Elders, Pastor of the Congregation, giving up their seat after a year.

These two things sound fishy to me; but maybe I'm just a little jaded after the overt and subversive abuses I witnessed first hand at GGWO during my tenure there. Anyway, I'm curious what your thoughts are on these two apparent indescrepancies?
Thanks!

[Anon Brief (205.188.117.20)]

Arguendo, et al - if members of the Board of Elders (BOE) are permitted to serve on the Board of Trustees (BOT) concurrently (and I do not see any documentation prohibiting that), the number does appear to be THREE, to me. If serving on both boards is not permitted, six.

Some points to consider:
- BOT must be 50% pastors
- BOE must all be pastors
- BOE appoints EC Chair of BOT
- BOE has veto power and can remove BOT members
- Chief Pastor is Chair of BOE

Not clear:

Article IV, B, 1. "The Trustees shall be elected to the Board of Elders of the Church..."
Is this a typo? Was this supposed to read BY?

Do we know the date of this document?

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Having some background with those that ran the church, I do not remember a time where the trustees were involved, in anything. I remember they were asked about the building of the gym, but the gym plans were ready and it seemed for nothing more than show.

Actually, the board wasn't used either. The new board members and the use and the talk of the board came into being last year after the family drug intervention. It was put into "active duty" to get rid of Paul. Paul was on the papers as the successor. He was an elder. He actually was voted out and removed on Monday by the elders who were appointed on Thursday. Four days after they had removed him per Carl's demand. Of course Paul was told nothing of this. His father told him all would be forgiven if he got on Grace Hour and repented. His father told him it would be Paul's birthday present to him. Paul did it and they met him with the paperwork and said "you are removed because you just repented on radio for wrongdoing" He was set up by his father and the soon-to-be-appointed elders.

[Anonymous (63.27.85.216)]

What a bunch of subversive bastards... Anything negative that comes their way is VERY deserved!

[Anonymous (63.27.85.216)]

Article IV, B, 1. "The Trustees shall be elected to the Board of Elders of the Church..."
Is this a typo? Was this supposed to read BY?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would suggest you go to the Graceways.org site to read this document yourselves to satisfy any questions and concerns you might have.

[Arguendo (172.161.27.51)]

AB,

But the EC of the BOT has 4 officers -- CH, VC SEC, TREA-- assuming that all 4 of the offices must be filled. I assume that the CH of the BOE and the BOT is CHS. So I think 3 others are necessary.

[Arguendo (172.161.27.51)]

Article VII, B, 1,

Trustees shall be elected to the BOT by the BOE 30 days prior to the annual meeting.

We do not know that date, but I look at a lot of by-laws and I think this is the first set from when they were first incorporated in MD.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Arguendo,

What would be the title of the paperwork which would name CH's successor, as Paul was named?

Would it be part of the bylaws or something else?

If Paul was removed by men not yet appointed as elders by CH, is this a violation of the bylaws or something different?

[Arguendo (172.161.27.51)]

63.27.85.216:

1.This quote is from Article VII regarding the BOT, not the BOE. The Chair of the BOT is selected by the BOE.

2. This quote is from Article VII regarding the BOT, not the BOE. The Chair of the BOT serves at the pleasure of the BOE. Personally, I assume that CHS is chair of both the BOT and the BOE, and that it was assumed he would be Chair of the BOE as long as he lives or could no longer be an elder.

There are two managerial groups here. It appears that the BOE was intended to oversee the overall well-being of the church. That is why the BOE has veto powers over the BOT.

The BOT was probably intended to deal with the fiscal and physical well being of the church. The real hands on work was intended to be done by the Executive Committee of the BOT. That's why the BOT only ratifies what the EC does.

[Arguendo (172.161.27.51)]

Regarding a successor, there are few problems.

1. We do not have a complete set of the by-laws here.

2. We do not have any amendments made to the by-laws.

3. There is another document that was created at the time of incorporation. It explains the property interests in the organization. So, we barely have half the story.

[AB (64.12.112.162)]

You are correct, it would depend on whether or not it was a requirement to have all offices filled. It is difficult to determine if the "minimum of three" includes the Chair.

Four officers (even six or seven), considering the size of the organisation, certainly seem like very few, at least by normal business standards. Further, the document does not appear to contain a lot of detail. I am more familiar with documents that spell things out to the point of minutia. What is your experience, Arguendo? Perhaps detail was not considered a need when this was written. Perhaps the document was just a formality.

You are probably correct with the date as well.

[Arguendo (172.161.27.51)]

In the 80s (the Reagan 80s) broad was better. Non-profits could get away with minimalist governing documents because "it was none of the gov't's business" how you run the place.

Most Articles of Incorporation that I look at these days are around 50 pages long.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Is the church organization obligated by law to follow their own bylaws? Is it only an issue if someone contests their behavior?

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

Generally, yes and yes. Although, if GGWOacted outside of the by-laws it could nullify the action.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

This is a very interesting line of thought to pursue. I have firsthand information the BOE used deceptive means to oust Paul. There is documented evidence to prove it. If this could be proven, would it mean the BOE is currently operating outside their own bylaws? Could action be taken to contest the current leadership is now governing outside legal boundaries?

[Arguendo (205.188.117.20)]

1. We do not know what the by-laws are now. The law is extemely flexible regarding changes to an entity's by-laws.
2. The presence of deception does not necessarily mean that the by-laws were not followed.
3. Paul stands for Paul. If Paul was wronged where is the damage to you?

[Anonymous (68.34.76.34)]

Fact is, the leadership has not been truthful to the congregation. The body has been outright lied to from the pulpit regarding many important issues.
*No accountibility from leadership
*Lack of fiscal responsibility
*Unbiblical practices from the elders against one another.

Are we following God, or men?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I would those of us who have left GGWO are following God. I know some that remain are in the process of leaving. If they do not leave eventually, they are following a man and not listening to God.

[Anonymous (63.27.89.197)]

Fearfully following a man who sublimally feeds them twisted doctrines to insure their complacency!

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

Um.. the bylaw thread is right here.

[Anonymous]

Arguendo

It got buried in the list of threads obviously.

And if people weren't still asking me about the bylaws and asking me to "get them" well I could have saved myself the time and energy it took to do that other thread.

I was out of time when this thread was started. I had no idea it was here.

Maria T

[british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)]

<font color="ff0000"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"><font size="+1">

Maria T don't worry yourself over something so small. You don't owe these people one explanation for anything. Don't pay any attention to that sarcastic SOB who posted on the thread you started. So what if you couldn't see it. Its no different than his remarks about M. Marr. Do what I do. Consider the source. Nobody is worth having your nerves plucked.

</font></font></font>

[maria_t (maria_t)]

What about the issues questioned about these by-laws? Almost a month has gone by, has anyone gotten any new information in regards to who has "CONTROL" and whether the elders do or do not have the right to demand that Pastor Stevens step down from his position?

All of a sudden this thread dropped down in the list. I am just wondering where everybody got with their research on this subject. I'm not "re-opening" the thread to open up a can of worms for the sake of arguing. I really do want to know whether or not the elders can "force" him to step down or not. I re-read the two threads on this topic and that info wasn't made clear, at least not from my understanding it isn't.


Maria T

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Did anybody bother to write Michael Marr with their questions at the addy I posted for him?

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Arguendo has already stated that:
1. We do not have a complete set of the by-laws.
2. We do not have any amendments made to the bylaws.
No conclusions can be made. There are reports from more than one person that the bylaws were amended. Marr denies it. There is a person that has the evidence. Until that person comes forward or the complete bylaws are given, it is hard to say.
But inspite of correction of heresy spoken by CHS at convention by the elders and zero contrition by CHS, who do you think has the real power?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Michael Marr is a part of this corrupted ministry and therefore not anyone I would expect an untainted straight answer from, Maria.

How a supposedly intelligent human being could sit on the dias this morning and actually participate in Carl's ravings...actually answering Carl's question correctly about the ganglionic BS makes him suspect and part of the problem. He's an attorney, and I simply am not so naive as to think he is not "in the loop" and not a part of the behind the scenes garbage that perpetuates the abuses at GGWO.

I'd personally be hard pressed to believe his answers to be anything but convoluted lies designed to cover Carl's lies and corruption. He reads FactNet they say...he can answer the questions here in public...no smart person gets involved talking to a cult lawyer one on one...let him answer in public if he has any5thing that will clarify the subject at hand.

I simply don't trust him, and I seriously wonder why others aren't more mistrustful of his involvement with this cult. By "others" I mean the Bar Association for one.

JMHO

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on November 28, 2004)

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Roberta, you aren't the only one who is now saying that "Michael Marr is part of this corrupt ministry and not someone that anyone can expect an untainted straight answer from."

I didn't see this post yesterday before I signed off of factnet. I watched the service yesterday morning myself, 2 people I know taped it word for word before the "editing" crew got wind of it. I didn't get the chance last night to get the tape to listen to it but perhaps tonight I can reach those people.

All I can say in regards to the by-laws is this: I was told what is printed on this thread on Factnet are the actual by-laws. I was also told they have not been amended. This was told to me by Michael Marr a few months ago now when I brought up the issue to him, it was when I set up that separate email addy for people to write him specifically about them. I think people that have questions or are guarded in regards to him need to email him!! Settle it with him once and for all. I don't speak to him on a regular basis anymore, not because of anything he has or has not done, but because I have had so much on my plate in my personal life, that I haven't had time. Sometimes I have had people ask me to "ask him" stuff for them, but now, if they do that I just refer them to him.

The bible even asks us "what is man that thou art mindful of him." I have had more people tell me they're "afraid" or "uneasy" or "nervous" about contacting Michael Marr. For God's sake he's a mere man!! Nobody on here will contact him directly, yet many feel free to slam his name or make assumptions about his position on certain issues, without even talking to the man. Those who have talked to him, like Dave Drago for one, are too chicken **** to post it publically. The only reason I was privy to the fact that they spoke was because I connected the two of them together to do so!!!

I know what Holy Spirit has shown me in regards to him personally. Until He speaks something different to me, I'm not going to pass judgement. If I have a question or an issue with this man, I wouldn't hesitate to bring it up right to his face. No man scares me. Just because he's a lawyer -- whoopie doo!! I don't mean any disrespect in that statement, I'm just saying that someone's professional employment status doesn't deter me from speaking to them, if it is them that I have issues with.

I have posted on threads before in regards to Michael Marr and his being available to talk to anyone who wants to talk to him. Until people do, I'm not going to take to heart people's opinions of him or where he stands, without them having spoken to the man themselves or having had emailed him. He's made himself available from the onset of people posting on here. I am not going to be the middle man anymore for people who want to reach him.

"No smart person gets involved talking to a cult lawyer one on one" -- why would you say that Roberta?? Do you think he would tape the conversation or use it to prosecute you? Do you have hidden reasons for not wanting to talk to him privately? I know you have been blasted here hard on factnet and I am not trying to do that to you now. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. He himself told me to tell you he wants to talk to you. You said to me that you wouldn't answer an email from him. I can't understand that one. If God hasn't led him to post on factnet, why force the issue and demand that he post publically!! Aren't we all to obey the Holy Spirit and let him lead us and guide us?

At least with emails there's no twisting of anyone's words, is there. Write him. Post your letter and his response. I don't think people know what to expect from him and aren't willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, simply from what others who have had personal issues with him and have said ugly things about him here on factnet. I know of two times this happened, no names mentioned, where the story written here on factnet alluding to Pastor Marr being guilty of something was all bullcrap. He didn't come on here and defend his own character either, which was slammed hard on here many times. I checked with my sources behind the scenes and learned those things posted were flat out lies. I never even asked him myself. I just kept my ears open and I prayed.

JHMO

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Maria,
I think I should point out to you that I am not afraid to say I spoke to Mike Marr publicly. What we spoke of is between us. Just as the conversation we had or Roberta or Jim or Lee or others I have spoken to I keep between myself and the other person. When I spoke to David Henke I asked his permission to post our conversation. I thought I should clarify this. I hope your pet is doing well. Are you still making the trips?
God bless,
Dave

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Give Michael Marr the benefit of the doubt?

Maria, you need to understand something. I will not in any way talk to, email, converse with or in any way contact any of the elders of GGWO...they will lie, with a smile and expect people to believe it. I wasn't born yesterday, I am no longer naive and anyone who is affiliated as closely with Carl Stevens as Marr is cannot be trusted or believed.

This is a destructive CULT, Maria. I know Dan Lewis and wouldn't expect the truth out of him, just like I know Tom Schaller, John Love or any of the other good old boys that are in the inner circle. None of them can be trusted.

Marr is a criminal attorney and as such knows the ins and outs of the art of manipulation. How can you possibly consider him to be unlike the others? My stars, Maria...you yourself say that Carl spoke gibberish last Sunday morning...but who was the only person who could answer Carl's stupid question about the ganglia? MARR. Didn't any of your inner alarms go off???

God hasn't led you to disbelieve anything about Marr. OK That is between you and God. But God has shown me over and oer and over again NOT to trust the liars at GGWO...and Marr is suspect by association if by nothing else.

I think you know me better than to say I might be afraid of a man. I am just not about to get caught up into the games these men play with people. Why would Marr want to talk to me? Ask yourself...what does this man want to talk to me about? He doesn't even know me except I am a vocal critic of GGWO. Whatever it is, I am not interested in a private conversation. I have nothing to say to him and want to hear nothing privately from him. I don't trust him and cannot undderstand why anyone would.

So...you don't believe the stories about what he has done to others? Which stories? Who are you saying is lying about Marr? You have proof, let's hear it. Is he really a dupe like you say he is? Is Marr being used as you have said before? Is Michael Marr just another victim of Carl?

Sorry...I find it hard to believe...not impossible, but damned hard to believe. Lawyers are seldom naive, and if Marr is, he's a bigger fool than I supposed.

Sorry, Maria. I am not a fool. I am not going to have a private dialog with a cult leader it is as simple as that. If that is something you cannot understand I am sorry, but it isn't going to happen. Been there, done that and I haven't got time for the pain.

If he wants to speak to me, let him do it here, publically for all to see. Tell him I said that and see how fast he refuses...tell him I challenge him to post here where everyone can see what he has to say...publically NOT privately. That way he cannot use anyone's words behind the scenes or misrepresent anything to anyone and neither can those who read it.

So...think he will do it? It will be interesting to hear what he says if he posts and just as interesting if you come back to tell us he refuses and why.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Dave
My apologies. You are correct with saying that your conversations with people have been kept privately between you and that person. It was wrong of me to call you "chicken ****" in not saying you had spoken to Michael Marr. I think there is so much controversy over where the man stands as far as GGWO is concerned, and a lot of assumptions made in regards to his character, that some have shared with me even though they have talked to him, they "WILL NOT" post it openly on factnet. They don't want others to even questions their motives, and to me, this is wrong.

Wasn't there an old adage written that "silence means agreement?" Well, if people are saying things that aren't true that others know are false statements/lies/misconceptions -- and they say nothing to defend the one being "condemned" then I think thats wrong also, wouldn't you agree? Is our reputation of what others think of us here on factnet more important than what the truth is truly? It frustrates me, and I'm sorry, you got the blunt of my frustration. I would have done the same thing if you were the person being attacked on here too.

In regards to Lindsay (the dog) weekly trips to the vet have been productive with more intensive glucose monitoring. I think after the next 3 weeks she will have adjusted to the Lente Humilin Insulin and her labwork will be consistent. Increased doses in animals have to be done gradually, and we have the "after dinner" dose straight, and are working on the "after breakfast" one. I'm glad that this will get settled before the icy winter of PA sets in. I don't care for the local Maryland vets, and the one we have in PA loves Lindsay and has been working closely with us to get her blood sugar regulated, even to the point where we don't even get charged "office visits" at all for her now, which is a great provision financially.

The other trips up north that I've been making have been family related. My sister is undergoing chemo for stage 3 colon cancer that has spread to her abdominal lymph nodes. She has had some serious adverse reactions to it, in fact she reached toxic level 3 weeks sooner than they anticipated. She just had a 6 day stint in the hospital in CT last week for severe dehydration and a bacterial infection. Its been very hard on my family and me travelling as well. However, my sister's condition is a major priority right now, and as I am able to travel, I want to be as much of a support to her as I can be.

Thanks again for your post. Sorry I put you on the spot.

Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Roberta even though I don't agree with your point of view and we have talked about this before on the phone, I'm not going to let it change the way I feel about you as my friend.

I think you have a valid point as do I.

Perhaps you should start a thread for Pastor Marr to answer to directly. If he then doesn't answer people's posts at all, then none of us have anything further to say, because he does read the forum consistently as I have state before. I can't "make" him post. Neither can you or anyone else. This isn't a "who is right or wrong" thing either. He has the right not to post just as we choose to post or not as well. I know he had said that the Holy Spirit has not led him to post. Its out in the open now, so start the thread if God leads you to do it. If God is leading you in that way, then I would think that God would lay it on his heart to answer you.

In regards to the stories of what he has "done" to others, there have been "facts" misrepresented. Its a lot kinder saying it that way rather than saying that someone flat out lied. Other things I am privy to (and these things were not shared with me by Michael Marr or anyone in GGWO leadership currently) I can't share them or my source will "dry up." Situations were misrepresented. Conversations that were said, ok--here's one for example. Someone posted that Pastor Marr and Pastor Schaller were seen in the MBC&amp;S parking lot doing a "high five" -- supposedly minutes after Pastor Lutz had a herendous ordeal with the elders. Now. Realistically NOBODY else was present around that car. Automatically it was assumed and spread around that they were doing that because they "got rid of Ed Lutz." The person posting it wasn't there, yet she maintains to this day that its gospel truth. In fact, she wasn't on GGWO property during that day at all whatsoever. So. Just because she is a "believable" person on here who has misconstrued a number of things she has posted, its believed by everyone that they were "glad" to be rid of Ed Lutz.

Well, I asked Pastor Marr about that myself. If anyone else wants to ask him what that was about, let them. I am going to keep quiet about what he said to me their conversation was about. If he posts it here, fine, I'll back him up. If anyone else asks him and they post the same response he gave me, I'll back it up and if they don't post the same response, then I will call the man a liar publically.

Do you see what I am saying Roberta? Not all that is posted on here is the truth. I happen to know that he represented someone's husband in a case -- well the wife posts on factnet, or she did. She hates his guts because he won the case against her. Now do you think I should embarass that couple and expose their name? Let me tell you this. It wasn't Pastor Marr that told me that info either. It came first from the disgruntled wife. Secondly from 2 other people that I ran her story by. So. 3 people say that she hates his guts and has said so -- for that reason. Will she speak to him? No.
Will they stand up and say she lied. No. Fear of man. Well it just all sucks in my opinion.

Thats all I can say for now Roberta. I know we don't agree and we are NOT attacking each other on here and I want that clearly stated before the gang drop bombs on me.

Yes I saw the service yesterday morning. I am going right now to the persons house to get that tape, they are finally home. I can't answer for what Pastor Marr said, the dogs were barking at the same time and I missed hearing what he said back to Pastor Stevens. In all fairness I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt at least until I can listen to this unedited tape tonight. I will post it word for word verbatim. Good or bad. That you have my word on.

Maria T

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Maria

I think you still don't get it. I don't give a damn if Marr posts here or not. I am only saying if your good friend Marr wants so much to contact me he'll need to do it publically. I personally have no need to speak with him...it is you who have repeatedly said that he wishes to speak to me. Or is it that YOU want him to speak to me to validate what you choose to believe about him.

You seem to say over and over how privy you are to all these secrets and situations. That doesn't make your estimation of Marr any better than mine, I am afraid. You seem convinced that he always tells you the truth. You believe him over others...not sure why. You don't trust anyone else...especially people who tell you bad things about him...but anyone who says bad things about Marr is somehow suspect.

So, say I speak to him and he tells you some BS about me...you'd believe him. That's how this blindness works, Maria. I am not a novice at this cultic game. I have seen it work over and over and over again. I once was blind to the game too...20 years ago. But no more.

I lived in denial too. I believed the leaders against my better judgement. Why? Because I needed to. I wanted to belong, I needed them to be my family like they said they were, I needed them to be right and the rest of the world wrong...after all, they said that the apostate were against them so they must be doing something right so often I believed them.

They taught me to turn my back on all I knew in my heart was true...I believed them and defended them like a pitbull...because I couldn't face the truth. They said they cared about me, that I meant something to them...THEY LIED.

Are you sure you are not living in deep denial, Maria? I thought I was following the Holy Spirit too when I turned my back on someone I dearly loved because the damned leaders told me he was "not of us". I regret the time I spent without him before he died because I believed these people who were using me.

Believe Marr if you need to. I personally don't need to read the verbatim account of Sunday morning...why? Not just because I heard it for myself, but it'll NEVER represent the weird spirit that was present there.

I guess I am saying Maria that clinging to the ministry via Marr and Paul is your business, just don't expect me to buy into it. Why? Think about it.

The man you so ferociously defend, Michael Marr is an elder in a CULT/CULTIC CHURCH/ABBERATIONAL CHURCH whatever you want to call it. If you chose to align yourself with him that is your business. Go for it. But this isn't about YOU.

This is really about the people who are trapped in a dysfunctional cultic system who are BEING USED for the gain of Carl and the Gang...of which your Marvelous Marr is an active and functiing member.

One last question...do you believe he always tells the truth when you confront him? Or does he already believe you'll believe whatever he tells you? Because that is what cultic leaders think, you know...they think that if they make you feel important, you'll believe anything. Been there, done that...it is a classic control techinque. They discover that a person needs.... to feel "privy" to things.... and they exploit it.

Sorry to say this Maria. But from my perspective it looks like they got your number.

I remember how it felt when they got mine and it worked for some time. Then I saw things clearly, and knew the betrayal, and saw them for what they really are...users and abusers.

I don't owe Marr the benefit of the doubt. I don't owe him anything.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Maria,
I deeply appreciate your apology; and, your passion and loyalty to those you hold in high regard is not lost on me. I am sorry to hear that your sister is not doing well. However, I am blessed to see family standing by one another in times of need. My prayer is that our Heavenly Father will comfort you and your family as only the God of all comfort and the Father of all mercies can. I pray that He will cause all His grace to abound towards you as you face the days ahead. Your support and care for her will bless her and help her face the future. I am glad to hear that your dog is responding to treatment. (We have two boxers, Abbey and Paige that our family adores…they have a way of wiggling into our good graces!)

For Him,
Dave

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Maria,
You have asked me a few questions that I will do my best to answer.

Question: Wasn't there “an old adage written that "silence means agreement?"

Response: Yes. I have heard of that saying. When we read or listen here at FACTnet or any other place we need to filter, by using our critical thinking skills and bring it to the light of scripture. If it sticks in our “craw” we need to research and draw our conclusions. I think I need to point out that we can also surmise that the elders’ (plural) silence speaks volumes about what they agree with regarding GGWO.

Question: “Well, if people are saying things that aren't true that others know are false statements/lies/misconceptions -- and they say nothing to defend the one being "condemned" then I think that’s wrong also, wouldn't you agree?”

Response: Yes, if you know that something is false/lies/misconceptions that are verifiable with two or more witnesses then you can correct the information. Otherwise it is hearsay. This is a two way street. When I am confronted with evidence I weigh both the number and credibility of witnesses. If you listen and read you will see patterns emerge.

Question: “Is our reputation of what others think of us here on factnet more important than what the truth is truly?”

Response: Each person needs to answer this question on their own by self-examination. I stand for the truth. The truth is the elders’ (plural) silence is tragic. The Bible is very clear on how the family of God’s leaders are to behave. They are to be servant–leaders with integrity above reproach. If an elder sins he is not to be treated with partiality, regardless of his age or position in the church. They know better. They could respond differently. I am not condemning (Krino-judging). I am discerning (dokimazo-thinking critically). If they want credibility and respectability then they should review the responsibilities of those who lead the church as clearly outlined in 1 Timothy 3, 1 Timothy 5, Titus 1, John 13:12-17, John 10, John 21, Acts 20:28, Ephesians 5:1-21 and 1 Peter 5:2. They can make ALL the excuses they want. They can even sentimentalize or rationalize saying their hands are tied. Also, they can ignore all their responsibilities as found in the Scriptures, but God’s Word is FINAL.

Maria, Please feel free to ‘put me on the spot’ anytime you want. I will do my best to answer your questions. Your candor is very refreshing. I hope you find mine to be the same.

For Him,
Dave

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Thanks Dave for answering my questions, I appreciate it greately. I guess I can be rather "candid" at times. Must be a thing fellow dog lovers do!!

Thank you too, Roberta, for sharing your views with me and your personal experiences here with how the TBS leaders used you. I can empathize with you and I can relate to the anger you showed in your post, I've been there too. I have been greatly wounded by the leadership of GGWO. Some parts of it I'm not over either. Much of the anger and bitterness I have given over to the Lord, but now and again, there are some parts of it that flare up triggered by something I've seen, heard, or read here on Factnet. I know you too are very angry Roberta, and you have been for years now. So are others that post here. We're all in the same boat, healing at different degrees. I personally want to move on "beyond GGWO" and get on with my life in the Lord. The future holds the best yet to come!!!

I never said that Michael Marr wanted to write to you to have someone validate what I post about them. I am not that insecure and I post what is true and honest before the Lord so I never have to worry about someone coming after me saying I am a blatent liar. Nor am I trying to "fit in" to any "group" or be accepted by people here on factnet. Nobody from the TBS days knows this man personally. All you know are by what Jeannie has written hatefully about him and some other anonymous posters who wouldn't put their name to the posts, one in particular being Karen January who is a mentally unstable woman who hates every man, and, not just Michael Marr. I know her personally and I watched what she did in an attempt to screw a friend of mine's husband to pay her back for ending their friendship.

You base your assumptions on his being a church elder "in a cult" so therefore he is automatically a liar, wicked and evil and you assume automatically that he is going to play head games with you just because he is a lawyer and laywers are good at manipulating people. He's the one who expressed the desire to talk to you Roberta and has done that for several months, and, yes, I gave him your message that if he emailed you, you wouldn't acknowledge it.
Why? If he was going to screw you -- you'd have it in writing on an email!! Then you could post it as proof of him being a liar and a scam artist as you've portrayed him to be. Or you could have another mutual friend of ours come over that lives near you -- you and she could be on the phone together with him. I've not found you or Bonnie to be liars, so, whats the harm in talking to him together then? Put him on the speaker so Scott can hear him also. 3 witnesses.

My point is this. The man has done nothing to you. Nothing at all. You haven't spoken to him, you group him in with a bunch of leaders at GGWO that have been known to do some ugly and hateful things. Why is he responsible for their actions/sins??? Why wouldn't you want to hear his "side" or "point of view" just like anyone else's? Why should he have to post here pubilcally if he is not led to do so? Its not because of Pastor saying factnet is nothing but satanic garbage either, he just has his own vertical with the Lord and wasn't led to post here. Imagine for one second how hard that has to be considering the character slamming in regards to his name that has gone on right from the start. I personally couldn't exercise that kind of discipline to obey God when my name was flamed or slammed on here, or when lies that I knew were lies were being said about me. I don't think anyone could say that is an easy task.

Roberta, I cut my ties to GGWO and meant it when I did. Like you, I still have friends who go there, friends that I would give my eye teeth for them to see the corruption going on behind the scenes and for them to get a wakeup call and leave. They are deceived and unless the Holy Spirit shows them what is going on they will go on being deceived. One of those friends is Michael Marr and his wife Susan. Do I pray they leave? Yes I do. Every single day. And thats for all of my friends that remain there, not just them.

Have I challenged the Marr's on this issue? Yes I have, but not lately to be honest. The Holy Spirit told me when to leave and it took me months of praying and seeking the Lord. Factnet helped with that, just as I hope that Pastor Marr will question the things he reads here on factnet and go to the Lord himself about. Don't I owe him that same courtesy? I believe so.

Like I've said. Personally, he has done nothing to me that the other elders have done. I know he has stood up for me behind the scenes. I'm sure he has paid a price too for doing so. If I expected anyone to object to my going to Pastor Paul's church I expected it to come from him and it never has. He has always encouraged me to be my own person and to think for myself before the Lord, and, to obey what I believe the Holy Spirit is showing me, to which I have done to the best I am able to do so.

Why do I continue having a "bible study" at my home with him as the leader? Because the Holy Spirit has led me to continue it, not to end it.
Does he teach GGWO "doctrine" there -- you know, the aberrant doctrine that needs to go?? Nope. Its more of a "rap" style discussion -- mostly about the early church and how things were done in the Spirit in the early church. How there was NO delegated Pastor/Teacher -- people were meeting in the homes and led by the Spirit of God. That is how the churches are supposed to be set up. Other people that have posted on factnet come to that "bible study" as led by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I too have speculations/questions in my own heart, regarding things I "see" and "hear" (via heresay and not my own eyes/ears) of what the leaders are doing behind the scenes. Yes I agree that the church government is way off and major changes need to be made. Yes, I think there needs to be Financial Accountability made and the church financial books need to be available for any "member" to view.

Do I think GGWO is a cult? I have been really praying about that and researching what defines "cultic" behavior. As of yet I haven't drawn a conclusion. I do see cult-like tendencies and I have weighed what is written here on factnet by others who have been part of this ministry much longer than I have. Perhaps my physical illness/infirmities kept me out of seeing those kinds of things due to the amount of time I spent at home and not at the church.

Do I believe the ministry can be salvaged? I have had great hopes of wanting to see this very thing happening, but it would mean more than just removing CHS as pastor, and, removing Dr. Lewis and Pastor Robinson. I know for a fact those two elders in particular are two of the biggest liars I've ever met in my life. I know this because of what they have personally done to me. These two have been personallly involved in my life or in Nancy's life since we came into the church and have done nothing but lie and mock us behind our backs. So, yes, Roberta I know what its like to be lied to and deceived and used by leaders, including Pastor himself.
Yes, I know the pain of that trust being smashed.

Yet, in all fairness, I haven't yet caught Michael Marr in a lie. God help him if I do, and I don't mean that as a threat but its not something I would take lightly or dismiss at this point in the game. For the record, I'm not "privy" to information from him either. If I ask questions, I get answers. Then I take them to God, and what has happened is that the Lord himself proved the things Michael told me, thru innocent mouths blurting out the same things, and it isn't people that were in contact with him either. Just like you have your sources, and Jeannie has hers, and others have theirs, I have mine. Not that it matters. What matters and what will matter in the end of all of this is that God is glorified. Sources don't mean **** if they aren't telling the truth, or telling partial truths either. 85 percent of what is written here on Factnet has been over-exaggerated and stated from human viewpoint, not from the viewpoint of the Holy Spirit. All these doctrinal debates, flaming, character slams...these aren't from the Lord yet all of us have fallen into it. It took away from what the whole purpose of factnet was for from the start. Yeah, there's 35000 posts, most likely 8000 are legitimate posts, the others -- well look at them. Debates like I said, arguments over whose doctrine is right, fighting, character slams, those idiotic photo sites, arguments over which music is of the Lord, beating up on people whose point of view we don't agree with (which you have been a victim of greatly, Roberta and so have I -- because we stand up for what we believe and we don't cater to any man). Then the tons and tons of threads created on here because of you know who...the devil had a field day on here for a season. Ministering to hurting people went out the window with people slamming the hell out of anyone they didn't agree with. Not just the GGWO loyalists or the GGWO dissenters (both terms I have always hated). I think people forgot that these people are our brothers and sisters in the Lord that were and are still hurting. Someone shared with me last night though that we have to "move on" with the Lord. Move on beyond GGWO/TBS. With some here its become an obcession and its like they are frozen in time until the church "crumbles" to the ground. What if God doesn't do that??? What then are we going to do??? Think about it for a minute. What if God's ways of taking care of things aren't what we are all expecting or desiring inside of us??????? What will we do then??? I mean sincerely, yes people are leaving GGWO weekly. Yet, God is bring in new people. I don't get it myself. I hear about this through the friends I have that go there.
They even had a special thanksgiving dinner to welcome the newcomers. How do we explain that one before the Lord??? I can't, and it puzzles the heck out of me.

I most certainly think the church government and by-laws need to be revamped. I still have hope that the church as a whole could be salvaged with overall repentance from those in leadership who have lied to the body and who continue to do so, in addition to Pastor Stevens stepping down.
Too many things have been covered up that need to be exposed and repented of. I believe Pastor is stubborn and proud and its going to take an act of God for him to stand up in that pulpit and admit he's done wrong to people all these years, lied to them, deceived them, and used them for his own personal gain, including using his son Paul in that manner. Will he? The way it looks now, I kinda doubt it. He's still lying and deceiving people from the pulpit himself. Sad thing is, I think he believes his own lies and his conscience is seared from even receiving the truth. Thats just my opinion and not anyone else's either.

I can't speak for Pastor Steve Stevens, Pastor Schaller, Pastor Schibelli or Pastor Stenger. I don't know these men enough personally to form any kind of judgement against them. I wasn't a "Schaller" groupie or "Schibelli" groupie like my friends were. Following a man wasn't my thing. The few brief conversations I've had with Pastor Stenger he always was kind and built me up. I think he's that way with most people.

Pastor Veader? He's a bully. A mean, vile bully and I pray to God that he does not get voted in as an Elder. I haven't spoken to Pastor Marr and shared with him what I personally went thru at the hands of this ignoramous. I wanted him to hear from the Holy Spirit himself to NOT vote for him to be an elder. Well now that its out now on this post, I guess we will be having a conversation soon in regards to Pastor Veader.

This is where I stand, Roberta. Talk to him if you want, or don't. I am not looking for anyone to validate "me" as I said above. We have different points of view, we have them in several areas. It doesn't take away my love for you as my sister in Christ and my new friend. I won't let the enemy put a wedge there either. Just because we don't agree 100 percent on things doesn't mean I have any less respect for you either. I love you.

Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Roberta, I forgot to add this too....I've always taken up for the one being slammed on Factnet if the Lord has led me to do so. I took a stand to post what is right before the Lord. Not what is pleasing to the ears on here. I don't cater to any man. I don't need for you to "talk" to Michael Marr or anyone else either for my sake. I knew you had questions you would love to ask him, others do also. They also have questions for Paul Stevens as well (like Boss M. for instance). All I've done is told people to do what is scripturally right. Mt. 18:15. They have an issue with their brother? They should then do it biblically and go to them one on one.
Thats God's way. And mine.

I just think people deserve the same courtesy we would want for ourselves. Judging someone as evil without even having spoken to him, or refusing to speak to him because they make you "nervous" (someone else said that to me Roberta, not you)....its a bunch of bull to fear man. Perhaps they "fear" him knowing what they have openly said about him here on Factnet that has been lies. Perhaps they fear him calling their number -- or perhaps they fear having to make something right that they know they posted as a lie on here.

You wouldn't want me to give that list of things posted on here in regards to Pastor Paul and Pastor Marr specifically that are direct lies and who specifically lied, would you? I wouldn't anyhow. Those people have to stand and fall before the Lord and not me. They know what they've lied about.

I also don't believe everything I hear, Roberta. All of us are guarded. People are guilty before proven innocent. So, yes, everyone is suspect to me. Not just because they post against Michael Marr or Pastor Paul, but because, like you, I've been hurt too and I don't trust many people. God is working in me now in that area. Trusting Him is the priority.


Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

I also agree 100 percent with the changes Dave Drago posted for GGWO. He's been "right on" with his discernment of what changes need to be made.

Maria

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"I know you too are very angry Roberta, and you have been for years now."

Angry? I haven't been angry for years and years about what was done to me. I am angry that Carl and Cronies are still destroying people. Be careful not to misrespresent my determination to see the destruction end as years and years of bitter anger, as other people have said of me.

"Nobody from the TBS days knows this man personally. All you know are by what Jeannie has written hatefully about him and some other anonymous posters who wouldn't put their name to the posts, one in particular being Karen January who is a mentally unstable woman who hates every man, and, not just Michael Marr. I know her personally and I watched what she did in an attempt to screw a friend of mine's husband to pay her back for ending their friendship."

Again, be careful, Maria. Jeannie has every right to complain and be furious about the treatment she and her family recieved at the hands of Marr. Why should I believe you and not her? Calling Jeannie a liar sounds a lot like a defense mechanism to protect your friend Marr.

Also, I never met George Bush either, but I didn't like his politics and didn't vote for him. I don't need to necessarily know Marr to distrust him...he is a participating member of the leadership of a destructive cult. Tell me why I should believe your one sided view and not believe what you consider are lies from Jeannie.

"You base your assumptions on his being a church elder "in a cult" so therefore he is automatically a liar, wicked and evil and you assume automatically that he is going to play head games with you"

You're damned right that is what I think...he is not better than any of the other men there if he participates either actively or passivly in the abuses of the cult.

"Or you could have another mutual friend of ours come over that lives near you -- you and she could be on the phone together with him. I've not found you or Bonnie to be liars, so, whats the harm in talking to him together then? Put him on the speaker so Scott can hear him also. 3 witnesses."

Why? I don't have any reason to want to talk to this man...I have nothing to say to him and don't care about wht he might have to say to me. I have listened to smooth manipulators before...it is so odd that this seems so important to you.

"The man has done nothing to you. Nothing at all. You haven't spoken to him, you group him in with a bunch of leaders at GGWO that have been known to do some ugly and hateful things. Why is he responsible for their actions/sins??? Why wouldn't you want to hear his "side" or "point of view" just like anyone else's?"

Maria. He is suspect because he is associated with known abusers. He has been reportedly a part of the abuses. I have no need to converse with him...and why in God's name would he care what I think of him? I think the only one who cares is you.

"Roberta, I cut my ties to GGWO and meant it when I did."

I am sure you did, Maria. But I do think you are still a bit blinded by sentimentality and denial about a few things. It is just a personal opinion, nothing else. means nothing...just an observation. But get this straight...I am not interested in talking to Marr. Let him talk here publically or not. But that is where I am at.

I don't trust him, Maria. It is that simple. He may be all you claim, but I think if he were a man of integrity he'd see the corruptions and leave GGWO. Again...just a personal opinion, which I am allowed.

You openly call Scott Robinson and Dan Lewis both liars. You judge all situations as to how it personally relates to you...what about what these men have done to others? Marr is part of a corrupt and destructive system...he is just as responsible as Scott and Lewis.

As for the rest....whatever, Maria. It is becoming evident that no matter what anyone says you will believe as you will. That is your right. But it is also my right to call it as I see it. I knew marr wouldn't ever take up the challenge to post here openly as the rest of us do. I never seriously thought he would. He's to smart for that.

Fine...ok...whatever. And what's this about "The Enemy" driving a wedge between friends? It isn't the devil who will do it...it'll be the elders who will if they get a chance...but I know you need to believe Marr is above reproach.

Personally I am not happy about hearing you call Jeannie Byrne a liar while saying Marr is an innocent. That's enough of a wedge right there if there ever was one, Maria. Can't you see....no, I guess you can't.

I am done with this. Carry on and defend Marr all you like...until he comes to grips with the fact that he is a leader in a corrupt church/ cult/ aberrational organization that uses and abuses people...I will never trust him.

Never. End of story.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Maria,

I appreciate your pursuit of truth and understanding. I understand Michael Marr has been someone you are close to and consider a friend. I have said very little to you concerning Michael in a personal way. My main concern is not each individual, whether they are off or right on. My main concern is the system of abuse practiced in GGWO. Not one of us have the right to judge any individual's heart but we do have the right to discern behavior, including those that are in the elite position of power to keep the abuse continuing. Michael Marr is one of the elders and I most certainly question his behavior in the current situation. If you witnessed CHS on Sunday am then you know he is not recovering. The fact is anyone that tried to help is gone. They have been discredited and slandered for standing up and trying to do the moral and biblical thing. You are one of those who have experienced this. You have suffered for the sake of truth and seeking answers. I do not hate Michael Marr or any of the elders but I can rightly observe their actions which include enabling a very immoral system of church government. You and Nancy paid a great price for seeking God and truth during this time. You have lost friends, you have been slandered and discredited. Think about this: What does the current state of affairs reveal? Who is suffering for the sake of "doing the right thing?" Who is enabling the marking and avoiding of fellow believers? It is those who hold the mic, it is those that enable a sick man and a sick system. You are a nurse, you can clinically assess CHS and know this man needs intervention. Why are those who attempted intervention now considered evil and gone? Why do those that hold the power continue to propagate the lie that GGWO is a wonderful and healthy church? These are the issues that are addressed here. I am not judging Michael Marr's heart or Scott Robinson or anyone else but I am judging behavior and actions. We are not posting on factnet to destroy a church but restore lives of others hurt by this church. My motivation is for others, for healing, for individuals to regain a strong individual walk with their savior. I know that is your desire also. It is not about attacking individuals, it is about freeing individuals. How will that occur if a few elite continue to enable a sick man and system? I love you Maria, I have observed your loyalty to your friends, it is very admirable. I too, am motivated by love and loyalty to my friends and not by hate.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Jeannie,

First of all, I want to apologize to you as your friend, because I guess by not saying that I truly do not think you are a liar that it was assumed that I thought you were. I believe people all have their subjective views as I do and when we are angry or upset, sometimes things don't come out like they happened. It doesn't mean "you" directly or indirectly lied. Karen January on the otherhand did infact lie. I was a part of that whole legal thing that she brought up in her April 2004 post on factnet so I know she lied for a fact. I shouldn't have linked you in with her and I'm sorry I did. It wasn't my intention at all.

April and May 2004 you were dealing with issues with the TBS/GGWO screw job the leaders did to your family. It is true that in the posts there were hateful things said by you (and Karen January) in regards to Michael Marr -- things said based on your personal experiences with him. And the good old GGWO Loyalist I was at the time I sucker punched the heck out of anybody going against anyone in leadership at that time. Remember? I do. And I regret those words too.

Jeannie, neither Nancy nor I are ignorant of the pain you have experienced, and Pastor Steve, and, the others posting on here too. We didn't even go thru a third of what you went through at the hands of the elders. We both believe you and Pastor Steve went through was far worse, and, we have prayed for you both many times. It helped a lot being able to pray for someone else and get our minds off of the pain we felt ourselves. I don't think that everyone who has posted in anger saying hateful things is a liar. I just know our perspectives can be off when we are angry and wounded. Mine was at different times as well. If I didn't have Chris, Jack, Karen, Bonnie and Roberta to talk to at different times, God only knows where I'd be today. Then he added you, and Lee and some others. We all need each others support and to keep purposing to not let satan put a wedge between us.

I have not had those same experiences with Michael Marr. The other elders? YES. Now you haven't had the same experiences that I've had with Daniel Lewis. See what I mean? We could debate about him and Scott Robinson for days and get nowhere but more frustrated!!

Its not the elders putting a wedge in here, like Roberta said, it is exactly what I said in the first place. The enemy trying to put one in between all of us. If we weren't wise to it, this thing could be a heated argument among friends. I won't argue with either one of you, I love you and Roberta too much and I won't do it. Satan is causing things to be misconstrued even though I clearly stated them above in black and white!! If we didn't already have the love of God in us for each other, we would have been at war on here for sure.

Personally I don't give a hoot whether anybody talks to Michael Marr, or, to Pastor Paul that doesn't want to do so of their own accord. I posted what I did because people were asking me to ask Michael Marr "this and that" and it grew old. I got sick of being the middle man!! I got sick of feeling like I had to defend my choices of whom I am friends with and that was really getting to me. I am friends with both him and Pastor Paul Stevens and nobody on factnet really likes that one stinking bit, but I am not going to change one thing in regards to the way I feel about either one of them unless the Holy Spirit directs me to do so, and as of now, HE hasn't!!!

I don't consider Pastor Paul or Pastor Marr to be a perfect men, or a men above reproach. Nobody is sinless. What I wrote in that statement above, I meant with all my heart. I too have speculations and unanswered questions arising lately in my heart, about Pastor Marr and Pastor Paul. I do see things going on and so does Nancy and we have gone to the Lord with them. We haven't gotten any answers yet and believe me, we are open to them. If he tells us to cut our contact with either one of these two men, we will without hesitation.

I have weighed certain issues lately on my heart, specifically because Pastor Marr is my friend. It isn't just Roberta or you alone that have been saying that as an elder of this church, he is a "part of the evil corrupt system and either needs to get out, or he is accounted to be in full agreement with what goes on there behind the scenes, even if he is technically doing nothing wrong." There's nothing I can say in his defense on that subject. I can say what God has shown me so far, which I have believed to a certain point that the elders have lied to him and used him, Dr. Lewis in particular, and Scott Robinson, and those things were brought to my attention not by anyone in leadership but by body members who now have left GGWO. If he is in "cohoots" with Pastor Schaller to "take over" the church as people say/think (not me), then I can see the aforementioned statement as being true considering Pastor Schaller and Dr. Lewis do not get along, and Dr. Lewis fears that he won't have a staff job if Pastor Schaller is appointed the next Pastor of GGWO. So, he undermines Pastor Marr and tries to make a fool out of him. Thats what I see based on what I've heard from 2-3 witnesses. Its either that, or then its Michael Marr lying to me and everyone else all along, and I don't have a witness in my spirit that he has done that. Not to me personally anyhow. I can't speak for everyone else.

Another point of consideration is that not all things posted on factnet are the gospel truth and we all know that to be true, and some of the things our "informants" have told us are one sided heresay accounts that we have "bought" as truth and made judgements by without checking into the "facts" of the situations at hand.

Someone explained to me today too the guilt by association principle. The GGWO's system is off -- way off biblically, morally, etc. It has cultic tendencies. Elders have lied to the body members and have been doing so for a long time. Pastor himself has lied and abused people too.
Then again, compare the current church to the days of Hitler. His architect got 25 years in jail and he wasn't even one that hated the jews or had anything to do with putting them to death. It was because of his ASSOCIATION with t Hitler that he got those 25 years in prison. Liken that to Carl Stevens -- before the Lord he has done some of the most wicked and evil things that many of us still think he has not repented of, even though we don't know his heart. I think, however, he is one that definately should repent before the entire congregation for the 30 plus years of his using his pastoral authority abusively, causing people to be wounded over the years, including first and foremost his own children. I have prayed that God would show him things and that he would step down after doing that and quietly leave. What he even fails to realize is that the way people in this body have loved him over the years is that 90 percent of them would be moved with such compassion towards him if he did that public repentence and the whole mess would be healed kinda like a domino effect. (That is my little pipe dream ok?)

We can't force anybody to leave, like none of you posting here could make me leave one day sooner than I was supposed to. Thank God I wanted to hear what the Holy Spirit was saying to me. It wasn't easy. The more I listened the more my heart was ripped right out from me and I was left holding it in my hands. Yes I asked for it, I asked God to show me the truth here. I never realized how much pain and suffering hearing the truth would be. I don't regret asking the Lord but I'll tell you we aren't done going thru the healing process at all. We're still in the beginning stages of it from my assessing the situation.

I can see with things that Nancy and I have gone through that the elders were used to carry out "his orders" so to speak, and they are they ones who looked like "robotic morons" while he smelled like a rose and we flocked around the rose until the thorns stuck the living hell out of us and we woke up. Great analogy eh? I remember vivid details of certain things I heard Pastor ask/tell/demand of Pastor Robinson - to go and do this...and then good old Scott went and did as he was told to do, and it fell in his face, and he took it rather than tell people Pastor had him do "this or that." I then watched those very people go back to pastor stevens at a Dunkin Donuts rap and flat out ask him if he sent Pastor R to do "this and that" and Pastor Stevens LIED and said he didn't know what they were talking about...and then had the nerve to wink at me. I felt like crap. I knew he lied. So I did the typical GGWO thing. I buried it. You didn't speak against your pastor...you know the drill Jeannie you've been there 1000 times.

Yes I did see Pastor's medical status sunday morning on the internet and yes I was again upset at the lack of intervention being done. It has been told to me and if my memory serves me right, it was attempted by Pastor Paul who tried to help his dad initially, and his dad refused and has made him pay ever since. If he is refusing to get help what can they do? As long as he is "alert" and "oriented x3" like we learned in nursing school, they can't legally get him declared incompetent so they can take over his medical choices (and wouldn't this have to come via his family first anyhow?). Those times of dementia are going to have to become more frequent before anyone can take any legal steps I'm afraid. Until then, he (Pastor) is going to do as he pleases and nobody can stop him whatsoever.

I do know from our talks of late that you aren't judging anybody's heart. I don't think anybody who writes something against Michael Marr is automatically considered a liar by me. People need to verify the facts before the stuff gets printed here on factnet. I just have a problem with one sided arguments thats all. If people have problems with him spefically, then biblically, they should go to him. Why is it any different with Pastor Paul? When I told Boss Martian to go to Havre-de-Grace in person and ask Pastor Paul things himself instead of posting them here on factnet and hatefully posting them which he did do for a season, nobody said anything to me. Yet he too was a part of that very corrupt system, right?

I did forget to tell Roberta but I did tell Bonnie this a month ago now, that originally when Michael Marr was open to talking with Roberta or anyone else, he offered to drive up to MA to meet with Roberta, Bonnie and anyone else with his wife. I told Bonnie this but I forgot to tell Roberta that too.

So, anybody in MA who wants to meet with a GGWO elder and have their questions answered, Michael Marr said he was available to do so, and I have printed his email addy over and over again for you to contact him. If you want a phone call from him, give him your number in the email.

Otherwise from this point on this 'debate' that potentially could never die needs to be dropped here and now!!

We don't agree in our opinons about Pastor Paul or Michael Marr. We all have come to love and respect each other's views here on Factnet, and thats fine, and as far as I am concerned nothing changes that one single bit in my heart.

I'm not closing my mind to what Roberta has written, we have talked previously on the phone about it, I am not attacking Jeannie or Roberta, and I know that they are not attacking me. I think both of you have wonderful hearts and are concerned for my personal welfare, and perhaps you both do see things that I don't see, whether I am blind to them, or whether they just don't exist, that is for me to find out between myself and the Holy Spirit. I thank God for everyone's friendship on here, and I don't mean any personal attack on anyone from my heart. I don't think any of you are attacking me either. I am stating these things so that they are not misunderstood by anybody.

I will keep praying as always to keep my heart and mind open.

Maria

[brie (brie)]

Maria - Butch Veader has been an official elder for a few months now. He was voted in after Paul left.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Thats not such great news, Brie. In fact it sickens me. He is not leadership material at all. He's a bully on a power kick. Thanks for letting me know.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

So...this means Carl appointed him or did all the other elders vote him in?

Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at THAT meeting.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

I think it was both RJ, Pastor did recommend him awhile back and then the elders had to meet to vote on whether or not to have him there. Looks like the majority ruled on that one.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

I just heard the news about Pastor Veader. He is not an elder. It was recommended by Pastor Stevens that he be considered, and ALL the elders have to agree on the appointment of any new elder.

I was just perusing the bylaws and Article IV Paragraph 4 states the following:

Elders shall be appointed to the board of elders by the chief elder with the concurrence of all the board of elders.

********
There has been no meeting, its only been a suggestion that has not yet been voted on.

See what I mean about information not being accurate? I too made the mistake assuming Brie was presenting accurate information. This happens over and over here on Factnet. It doesn't change my heart as to how I feel in regards to Pastor Veader ever being appointed.

Maria T

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"See what I mean about information not being accurate? I too made the mistake assuming Brie was presenting accurate information."

Accuracy....hmmmm. I guess it depends upon whom one wishes to believe...especially when it comes to the so called elders.

[brie (brie)]

All I know is that over a month ago, one of Butch's brothers told me personally that Butch had been made an elder and they were going to his house for a celebratory dinner. Butch's wife has been ill and pretty much house-bound, so they were actually taking dinner over to them.

Ever since then, he sits on stage with the others at every service. So, unless she was mistaken, that is what my comment was based on.

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

Brie...Sharon's daughter? I use to work with Tony way back

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Wrong Brie, Bruce. Lots of us thought the same thing you did.