HEY CHECK OUT THIS HILARIOUS NEW WEBSITE

[Anonymous (63.27.82.193)]

Check out this new website found at:

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

OMG, the graphics on this site are great! Talk about a "take that" to Carl Stevens! I highly recommend it!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I do not recommened it.

[Anonymous (68.162.249.167)]

Please stop this. It isn't funny. I enjoy a good laugh as much as anyone, but this is not funny. These people are in serious jeporday of losing their place in the Kingdom of Heaven. I am appalled at all that has happened at the churches of GG in the name of our Lord. But so help me I still have compassion and I hope understanding and forgiveness in my heart,
As much as I don't like what has happened to fellow Christians and the whole atmosphere of these churches I don't want ANYONE TO FALL INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Most importantly, when all is said and done, they must answer to the Lord for what they have done and I must answer to the Lord for what I have done ..... including in this situation and I choose hope and prayer.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I don't think these web sites help the cause at all. Our desire all along has been to get the truth out, befriend those that need a friend, and comfort those that are hurting. The goal has not been, at least not with me, to hurt or humiliate anyone. I get distressed thinking that some may come to factnet, looking for information, possibly to make connection with others, only to find so much that doesn't befriend or glorify God at all. I understand anger......really, I do, but I'm tired of this kind of mocking. Also, I have heard from people who once posted who will not any more, they will not even read, they have limited communication with themselves because of this type behavior. They may mistakenly lump us all together with their judgement, but, still they have a point. I'd like factnet to be a place where we can be free to say what we want without crossing the line into inappropriateness.

This is in no way saying I'm not for free speech, I don't want to trample on anyone's creativity, but not all creative works are good, if they convey a tearing down of a person. Who knows, maybe one of those pastors was closer than we think to really, seriously considering a change. I for one, would never go anywhere , where I thought the people there, were mocking my person.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Maybe its time to demonstrate repentance.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

backsliding ,sin ,reprobatness, etc is no laughing matter for the consequences are serious

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

amen amen and amen!

[Anonymous (64.12.113.38)]

this websight is disgusting, who is the loser behind it?

[Anon Brief (64.12.113.142)]

Most of us have been provoked to anger by Stevens.

Anger is a normal emotion. People feel anger; however, what one does with anger is a reflection of one's own character.

To allow Stevens to provoke and sustain this level of anger is unhealthy and maladaptive in every way.

Don't allow Stevens to have that much control over you. Grow beyond this anger. Grow into who you really are. Grow into who Christ wants you to be.

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

We need to learn to lighten up and laugh otherwise this situation will kill us all! I see it as the use of satire much like a political cartoon and NOT an offense to God! It says in the Word that He laughs at the wicked so I don't think a little mocking of their legalistic doctrines at GGWO is out of line!

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

So we follow the world with its mocking of well known people? Put me down as one that doesn't buy that. If one has true comedic talent, one would not have to resort to mocking. Sorry, I'm not ready to give up on anyone coming out of their deception and sin......not as long as they are alive. I think by mocking, you just set them more against you. But you think thats funny.

What I find humorous is Doonesbury, when he takes real issues and things that people really say, like our Pres's NCLB and makes fun of that.......maybe you don't get that.....do you even know what NCLB is?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Lee, you go girl!!!

[Arguendo (152.163.101.12)]

Doonesbury?

Opus!

[Arguendo (152.163.101.12)]

It's not satire, it's ridicule.

[Anonymous (63.27.85.216)]

A pictorial depiction of the absurd and unbiblical teachings of GGWO is no crime; as a matter of fact, it just might be the vehicle to communicate creatively how truly "off" the teachings are there and cause some to take that first most difficult step out the door of this cult!

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

WHO THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE ANYWAY? WHAT A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES, YOU ALL E-MAIL EACH OTHER, AGREE ON A VOICE OF DISSENT AND THEN FREAKEN' ATTACK PEOPLE THAT DON'T LINE UP WITH Y0UR IDEA OF JUST "HOW" THIS STUPID BOARD SHOULD BE! NO, YOU ARE JUST LIKE YOUR MENTOR CARL STEVENS, SUBVERSIVE AND SECRETIVE TO HAVE THINGS YOUR OWN WAY! MAYBE SOME PEOPLE DEAL WITH THINGS IN THIS WAY, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE!

**** OFF

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/ and http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/!

[Arguendo (152.163.101.12)]

Take a pill.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I can not believe someone made fun of Dede Stoddard's teethe on that website, that is so cruel, what has that poor woman ever done to you? **** you who ever did that!!! You have no conscience, you *******!!

[Anonymous (212.38.225.41)]

That is stupid.
Paul Stanley was the best one.

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

i agree 212. i liked pastor paul as butthead he rocks and the three stooges picture is really funny too.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Perhaps the site went too far.

But as an outsider looking in, it seems that much, if not all, of the issues at GGWO stem from exalting Carl Stevens. Exalting, worshipping, not questioning, in short, treating him as if he were some sort of minor deity.

Are there any of you out there who are bothered by this creative site that have been bothered by political cartoons and satire directed at Bill Clinton? George Bush? Saddam Hussein? Osama Bin Laden? Gays? Lesbians? Minorities? If you are outraged by any satire directed at these people, maybe you have a point about Carl.

Indeed, the site has probably crossed the lines of good taste, but it seems that there has been over 30 years of "well, Pastor has this issue or that, but he is, after all, PASTOR, and therefore must be respected."

I think that while some limits of good taste have been reached (maybe), I think that by putting Carl in the category of "just another idiot", it takes away some of the false power that this guy wields. I for one think he's a sorry excuse for a man, and I make no apology for that. He hides behind his so-called annointing, the Bible, and God (he thinks) and he is considered untouchable.

As I write this from my desk at work, I am looking at an 8.5 x 11 poster that some people at work came up with using my highly un-flattering second grade class photo. The caption insinuates that some people shouldn't be allowed to breed. I have let it hang for over a year now. Is it in poor taste? Sure. But I, unlike Carl, have a sense of humor, even when the joke is on me.

It is well past time that Carl is taken off his pedestal. His pedestal is his power.

I don't think anyone is going to hell over that site.

But I'm a heathen, what do I know.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (205.188.116.211)]

Good points Boss.

I have a difficult time with the satire when it is someone I know, such as DeDe, who has already suffered enough. I hurt, if it hurts someone maybe in a fragile place at the moment.

Carl would not be hurt by it, he would go ballistic! How many times my spirit was grieved when watching Carl flip out at the European conferences. If his luggage wasn't provided just so, the car only a short walk, if the five-star hotel was slow in their service and on and on. And yet the Russians and Eastern Europeans traveled days in horrible conditions, stayed in hostels with little food and just glowed with God's nature and thankful spirits. What a contrast! And how many ways was the spirit speaking to me to get out from under this creep?!?

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I think good satire, as with good political cartooning will have a message that is clear and tells us something about the foibles of human nature.....something we all share and should be able to relate to in a humorous way. I think if its bad satire it will denigrate ourself and others. How funny it would be if we saw a cartoon of a toupee wearing, barrel chested man prancing around as though he were king, walking on the heads of others, all while the witnesses to this charade know exactly what is going on. It would show us what happens when someone gets too big for his britches. Like the wizard in Oz or the King with no clothes on......

Some of the pics I looked at I thought were in poor taste and I discerned an attitude that could really hurt others and perhaps cause them to be turned away from coming clean.

I think we all could use a good laugh about how this whole ministry has gone on so long with such ridiculous role models! I thought Jim Faucetts moniker, Cordell Walker was funny and fitting......anyway, enjoy!

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

There certainly is enough material to use for lampooning.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Not knowing all the "characters", I don't know who is worthy of satire and who is innocent. It is always bad when the innocent suffer.

I do know that Carl H. Stevens is NOT innocent. Far too many innocent people have suffered at his hands, and not because a Photo Shopped photo of them appeared on a web site. Ruined marriages, arranged "divine design" marriages, abused kids, affairs under the guise of God's will, misappropriation of tithes, etc., far outweigh a fake picture on a site.

Treating him with high or "double honor" has not worked. Saddam Hussein and Manuel Noriega were, after all, heads of state. I seem to remember both of them being led away in handcuffs.

When is Carl Stevens turn?

This is a war, people.

Boss Martian
Angry and Red

[Anonymous (70.17.195.98)]

This is a pathetic site and does not represent Christ's heart at all. I am saddened by the amount of cruel posters have shown up here.

I no longer go to GG in Baltimore but these are still my brethren. I am certain God is not pleased with mocking spirits.

Forgiveness is the beginning of healing and God will deal with His churches or "cults" that mislead His children and will lead His children to where He wants them.

Sites like this are unnecessary but you are free to exercise your will in whatever manner you choose. But keep in mind you are not helping the situation and are making yourself look foolish.

I pray that God opens your eyes.

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Forgiveness is certainly the beginning of healing.

How exactly would you forgive Carl Stevens TODAY?

What would Carl say TODAY if you walked up and forgave him for abusing you (if that's why you left GGWO)?

Carl Stevens, to my knowledge, has not stopped his abuse and lies. To the contrary, he continues his abusive behaviour and will tell you that he is acting upon God's Will. In short, other than the fact that we are all sinners and need God's forgiveness, he is in no need of YOUR forgiveness because he hasn't done anything wrong to warrant it.

To forgive means that you are to try to forget the matter or by the act of forgiving, even though you may remember the offense, you no longer hold the person who trespassed against you responsible for the offense. The offense is never to be mentioned again.

So, if Carl doesn't think he's doing anything wrong (he must not, because he's still ranting about loyalty to him as the only valid pastor/teacher), your forgiveness without his repentance merely gives him license to continue his abuse.

I can't readily recall anyone on this board saying that they wish that Carl would spend an eternity in hell, which is the destination for those who are not forgiven. Christ offers forgiveness, but ONLY IF YOU ASK FOR IT! It is certainly within God's power to forgive you or me without our asking, but He has indicated that we must ask. And the only reason we ask for forgiveness is because we openly admit that we are in need of it, that we have done something wrong.

I will go way out on a limb here and say that 99.9% of the "dissenters" on this board would be very pleased and graciously accept Carl's apology if he admitted what he has done and asked for forgiveness. And stepped down, of course. Those people, myself included, would forgive him.

But he has to stop the abuse. He has to admit the lies.

He has to ask for forgiveness.

Carl hasn't shown one ounce of the humbleness that he supposedly oozes from every pore.

I ask these questions, 70.17.195.98: Have YOU forgiven every sinner that you have come into contact with, no matter what, even if they have not admitted their sin and asked for forgiveness and continue in that sin?

Is their no sin out there worthy of effort on your part to stop?

Or is it the residue of worshipping and exalting a man that keeps you from realising that he is a liar and an abuser and that some part of you wants to keep worshipping him? Do you still think that he should be above all question or critique?

Maybe it's because I'm a bit more secular than some of you (some of you even question my Christianity), but nobody is going to commit suicide over the Liquid Waves of Stevens site. No one lampooned on the Cockatrice Eggs site is going to bed tonight and wondering if having an affair with a pastor is God's Will. No one referred to on those sites is wondering if God even exists because they saw their face in a Photo-Shop parody of themselves.

There are people looking at those sites and are filled with anger. "How dare they make fun of PASTOR! That's the sort of things that they do to BAD people! Not God's MAN!"

Thankfully, there are those who look at those sites and say to themselves "Carl Stevens is NOT God's man."

People have been forgiving and forgetting Carl for decades. Look at where GGWO is at TODAY.

I've been getting the business end of Carl Stevens for too damn long and I don't even go to his church.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (70.17.195.98)]

Boss I understand your anger but God will deal with Stevens. The Bible is my final authority and it says the following:

Philippians 3:13 "I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,14 I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.15 So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also.16 Only let us hold true to what we have already attained and walk and order our lives by that.
17 Brethren, together follow my example and observe those who live after the pattern we have set for you. 18 For there are many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, who walk (live) as enemies of the cross of Christ (the Anointed One). 19 They are doomed and their fate is eternal misery (perdition); their god is their stomach (their appetites, their sensuality) and they glory in their shame, [5] siding with earthly things and being of their party.20 But we are citizens of the state (commonwealth, homeland) which is in heaven, and from it also we earnestly and patiently await [the coming of] the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] Savior,21 Who will transform and fashion anew the body of our humiliation to conform to and be like the body of His glory and majesty, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself."

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and [9] giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins,leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses"

Romans 14:4 "Who are you to pass judgment on and censure another's household servant? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he shall stand and be upheld, for the Master (the Lord) is mighty to support him and make him stand."

I want accountability also. I spent 15 years of my life there, but God is more than able to handle the matter and the wise choice for us is to move forward and keep our eyes on Christ.

Hebrews 12:2-3 "Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Just think of Him Who endured from sinners such grievous opposition and bitter hostility against Himself [reckon up and consider it all in comparison with your trials], so that you may not grow weary or exhausted, losing heart and relaxing and fainting in your minds."

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

LEE YOUR A BITCH!!!!

[Jeannie Byrne (205.188.116.73)]

152,
You are dead wrong. Lee has been a friend to many of us. Her words have been kind and her motivation pure.

You are ignorant in your approach and motivation.

You need to repent.

[Arguendo (152.163.101.12)]

152.163.101.12:

Mm, that would be "you're," not "your"

What are you? About 13 or 14 years old, eh?

[Nancy Curra (70.17.195.98)]

152 why would you say such a thing about Lee? She has done nothing but manifested Christ and encouraged here and is a friend to all.

If you are a Christian you need to appologize to her and if not I pray you will come to understand Christ's love for you and His Nature towards His children.

[Nancy (70.17.195.98)]

arguendo you have the same IP number as the person who called Lee a b....

Or are my eyes playing tricks on me?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

152 is way out of line. Insulting language is uncalled for 152 no matter what your opinion of Lee is.

Boss, I only have this to say about forgiveness: I do not forgive Carl for his sake but for my own. It was a long time arriving, but eventually the fury and hate at being betrayed had to be dissoved or I would never heal. Many of the most effective persons in the battle for the abused souls still at GG have used forgiveness to move on so as to help others.

It is a process, but eventually one discovers that the unforgiving heart becomes warped by undealt with anger...and that helps no one.

I am not saying that I have forgotten his deeds, for indeed I have not. I am not so Christ-like that I could do that, no way. I am still a warrior in the battle, but a good soldier cannot let his emotions take over completely leat he in unable to defend himself and thus unable to save others.

Carl's pedestal is crumbling with each passing day, and if we stay forcused on the real work here...helping those still trapped in the lies to see the truth and leave...the walls will indeed crumble.

Anger is the first step toward healing and I am not invalidating the anger people feel...just wanted to say a few words about forgiving. It is a delicate balance not always easy to walk.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

152 whoever you are, I don't mind being called a bitch......actually, its sounds quite familiar! Anyway, the artwork really isn't the point here. I'm not always the most eloquent or articulate. I went away from the computer yesterday after writing what I did and as I stood in my studio I thought...... I think my reaction had more to do with art, talent, real poignancy than it had to do with the artists conceptions of what 'good' is. Really good art will say a huge amount with one look.......more looking will say even more and great art, well, its timeless......maybe I should say......I'm sorry for wanting better. Also, I'm soooo tired!!! And so happy! But thats off track.........forgive me if I think that what we are doing here is very important. I want what is shared here to be meaningful and powerful. I have no desire to control the output of anyone.

Would you like me to send a pic of myself? You could have a field day!

I agree with you Boss.....CHS is not an innocent man........if only I had the particular talent for parody, I'd draw something myself and show you all something truly funny......

[Arguendo (64.12.117.11)]

"arguendo you have the same IP number as the person who called Lee" by term that surely underestimates her will and fortitude.

Nancy, people who have the same internet service provider (ISP) will have the same IP numbers. I use AOL and so does that inarticulate adolescent.

[Anonymous (205.188.116.73)]

"I think we all could use a good laugh about how this whole ministry has gone on so long with such ridiculous role models! I thought Jim Faucetts moniker, Cordell Walker was funny and fitting......anyway, enjoy! "

Lee it isn't funny at all making fun of certain people on that Website. Dede Stoddard is not a ridiculous role model, she is a godly sweet woman that served God with all her heart. What has she done to deserve being made fun of hewr appearance on that Website?? That is so cruel. She probably never had enough money to fix her teethe because of working for GGWO for so long. I know Dede very well and I would be horrified if she ever saw that picture someone did of her.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Thanks 205 for your heart felt sentiments.....I particulary loathe it when people make fun as the 'creator' of this web site did in making fun of Dede.......I respect her highly......I tried gentle persuation a first, with a private email, then I wrote about it.....I'll not fight with anyone about it though. I'm a big proponant of letting people make their own decisions.....that way they are the ones that pay the consequences for them.

If you are rebuking me then go ahead....rebuke away, I've said my piece.

[Anonymous (63.27.17.33)]

RJ,

I am very grateful for those formerly involved with TBS...you all KNOW what it's like to the travel through the grieving process that we former GGWOer's face now! Thank you for your patience, prayers and understanding as we all grieve in our own ways during this time of transition from this cult.

Ps. Who knows, maybe the people cockatrice eggs has posted offended him in some way. God will be faithful to see him through too!

[Anonymous (141.157.74.81)]

Barbara in missions left too!

[Anonymous (63.27.24.172)]

Who's Barbara? Stevens?

[Anonymous (70.17.251.143)]

barbara michaud

[Anonymous (63.27.87.37)]

remember those "stupid" little white tapes EVERYBODY was encouraged to spend money on? you will find some amusing "adaptations" of these at

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous (205.188.117.11)]

Comeone everyone ya'all know Neil is behind all this crap! It's Neil's sick sense of humor or rather his idea of humor. Of course it isn't funny it's from Neil.

[Anonymous (63.27.7.157)]

Neil or not I think it's very creative and makes fun of the bizarre things we were expected to think and do while at GGWO! After all, it's better to laugh than feel depressed over this deception. Mock away Neil or whomever, mock away...I for one am getting an endorphine high from laughing! [before I was crying all the time!]

[Anonymous (63.27.95.220)]

LOL

[Anonymous (141.157.73.153)]

My gosh people!! I go away for a few weeks and look at all the threads, and now this utterly ridiculous one (amongst the others...). I must have missed this one perusing factnet over the weekend trying to catch up on all the posts.


For the sake of '152' I too must be a bitch!!
I think what Lee wrote was perfect. She's a precious godly lady and she's never been ugly or hateful here. She posted what she felt in her heart, and I agree 100 percent with her. Its the mocking spirit behind the pages that is the issue here.
Well, as you know I've been called worse on here and will be again at some point!!

RJ you are 100 percent with what you wrote about the process of forgiveness concerning Pastor Stevens and I admire what you wrote being so honestly reflecting your own struggles with it, I too have gone through some of those very same things, but NOT to the depth as some are hurting from the far worse things they experienced.

I too did not like the mockery of this website. I honestly did chuckle at the Dr. Lewis pictures because I can't stomach the man. I had to put those feelings aside, however, and ask myself about what the Lord would think of those pictures...I think they would sadden him, because He loves all of those peole unconditionally....despite all the ugly things people have experienced over the years that leadership has said and done.

Nancy Curra, I appreciate your rendition of the scriptures about forgiveness, but, whether this causes an uproar or not on the board I am going to say what I feel anyhow. I think you are a hypocrite, because you have NOT forgiven me and
its been made evident to me by others who have repeated things to me that you had said about me.
This was awhile back, but you still have NOT come to me via email, phone or whatever. Sorry if the truth hurts. I have come to your rescue many times on this forum when others have slapped you down only to have you totally write zilch when someone cut me to pieces. Not that I needed your support but it would have been nice. I offered my hand of friendship to you. Its you that never wanted it. So I will stick my tail between my legs and go on with my life and get a grip that you just forgive those you "choose."

and, "205" I didn't care much for Dede either but I agree with you that those pics mocking her teeth were uncalled for.

I agree too that it has to be Neil Carrick behind the scenes doing this stuff. We all saw him "off" his meds, now we see him "on" them.
Should we send him a pic of my "fat ass" for his page??? Afterall, he certainly made enough references to it!! Nah...why feed the child's ego any further. We could take bets as to how many threads he's going to put that addy on between now and the end of the week. Any takers??? I could use the extra $$$$ my check doesn't come till the 3rd....

Take care everybody
Maria T

[Nancy C (70.17.203.251)]

Maria, forgiven you for what? I am not sure why you are so upset with me. I have enough going on with my health, my mother's death and probate to put my energy into much of anything and I can promise you that I haven't mentioned your name once in the last few years. I have no reason to say anything about you at all. I am not sure who is giving you this information but I haven't even spoken to but a handfull of people from GG in the past year.

I am sorry that you have been misled but honestly I have no reason to dislike you. I simply don't have much time to myself and when I do I have to take care of family matters. There are aids and nurses and phys therapists all day long. And many other things that have to be done.

I don't know what else to say or why I am defending myself but again as I said on other threads if I have offended you I appologize.

[Anonymous (63.27.19.30)]

A celebration of "Shalloween" ...

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Maria T.
Someone put a picture of you on this website.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.13)]

Hey what happened to the picture of wisot kissing stevens butt and the other missing pictures? I hope they are only down to be replaced with bigger better pictures

[Anonymous (209.247.222.83)]

Maria, we don't know who is behind that website. For all we know it could be you, so stop accusing people. For God's sake, please bring your problems with Neil to the feet of Jesus and leave them there already. Stop embarrasing yourself by staying on the soapbox with him and get over it.

[Anonymous (209.247.222.83)]

And p.s., I think that "supposed" picture of you and your walker was very mean and uncalled for. It was a very cheap shot, and I hope you don't let it bother you.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Maria get a grip! it isn't me.

But somebody has a huge amount of time and talent.

Maybe its off the wall but hey they are good.

Based upon the post of the butt it must be somebody you really ****ed off.

BTW Who lives in NY you really ****ed of Maria?

Go SOX!

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

Neil,

I know it is not you. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Cara

Go Sox!!!!

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

Ditto.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

Well since LEE likes the website so much, she must know who is doing it. Fess up LEE!

[Anonymous (63.27.23.184)]

Hey what happened to the picture of wisot kissing stevens butt and the other missing pictures? I hope they are only down to be replaced with bigger better pictures
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"click" October Archive, Wisot's still there smooching away at the bottom of the site's page.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Hey Cara,

I am doing great, Keri is doing great.

We are going to Romania in Feb! speaking at churches in Bucherest and Cluj. Visiting orphanages, speaking at high schools, etc. Can't wait.

I was made President of a State Convention! Forget the stuff that is going in the debates of men, enjoy your call. I am for a change.

Go Sox!

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

I am happy to hear that Neil!

God is good and the Red Sox are winning!!!

You are always in my prayers.

Anam Cara

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

What is this crap? If you're going to steal http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/ ideas least you could do is put it on a different site!

we at http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/ stick with only poking fun at stevens and some fools on this site!

long live the OTP! (Orange Twopay!)

[Anonymous (68.22.243.127)]

Well, at least liquidwaves started the trend 24.58.... perhaps more and more sites will start up and they will all link together in a great 'cahpret' expression of angst and holy wrath...

i think that i like liquidwaves better for the audio and funny pics, but cockatriceeggs really hit on some funny stuff with those message tape pics... very funny!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

visit em!!

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

yeah there was some funny stuff, but mine is better

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

all the way!

[Anonymous (63.27.85.186)]

You're so right dannl and please have a good night!

[Anonymous (63.27.85.186)]

Ps. You were the first brave soul to DARE to go THERE so thank you for breaking the ice. Peace!

[Anonymous (64.26.82.18)]

whoever you are quit babying this kid! cockatrice-eggs has better graphics and more clever humor than liquidwaves could ever come up with! some of the humor is ranchy but it drives home a point,that of exposing this idiocy for what it is, IDIOCY!

[Anonymous (63.27.15.124)]

64,

There's no need to be nasty and ugly here okay?
Have a good day!

[Anonymous (12.22.249.3)]

To Whom It May Concern,

Be sure to check out the election pictures on this website, they're a scream!

12

[Anonymous (141.157.75.113)]

ok Neil you have me convinced now that you aren't the author of the 2 websites with the pics etc. I misjudged your character. We had our moments but you never stooped that low. My apologies.

To the other '24' poster I marvel at the depth of disgust you lower yourself to as a Christian. Have you that much hate in your heart that you would post those ugly pictures? The road sign was cute and laughable. Pastor Schaller kissing the "ass" of Pastor Stevens with the world on it...low...and disgusting. That's not something Neil Carrick would have done. People on here made fun of him but he has one hell of a lot more Godly character than you do.

Am I to thank you for posting the picture supposedly representing my fat ass? You were way off on the size of it, what a shame you missed the mark on that one. By the way, I cut and pasted it to my pictures just in case I can
sue your fat ass -- then you will get a real thrill of what it feels like, hypothetically speaking, of having that walker shoved up there now won't you.

I hope too that the other body members you trashed on that site sue you as well. Even though I have left GGWO, I saved their pictures you took. I would help them sue a sick pathetic person like yourself. Even if you erase your website, guess who has the last laugh now.

Maria T

Just in case you want to write back and tell me where to go, don't bother. Go there yourself.

[yogi (yogi)]

Maria,

Please read the following quote...

"Should we send him a pic of my "fat ass" for his page??? Afterall, he certainly made enough references to it!! Nah...why feed the child's ego any further. We could take bets as to how many threads he's going to put that addy on between now and the end of the week. Any takers??? I could use the extra $$$$ my check doesn't come till the 3rd...."

I'm afraid I misconstrued your self-deprecating humor and went along with the gag, or so I thought. Therefore, I'd like to apologize right now for hurting your feelings. I'm sorry!

However, I am NOT sorry for posting pictures of these men who have destroyed so many lives with their own going lack of responsibility and duplicity! Juvenile? Perhaps! Ungodly? Maybe! But I am so angry at these men's complacency I could spit, hence the sometimes sarcastic blogs!

Nevertheless, this does not excuse how I've hurt you; someone who I've grown rather fond of over the past few months while posting here, so please forgive my blundering!

I must tell you if you chose to sue me I'm afraid the settlement would be meager at best since I've recently lost my job! Sometimes I wonder if Carl's curse is true since this happened a few month's after I left GGWO.

At any rate, I hope you will find it in your heart to look beyond this situation and forgive this misunderstanding.Thanks for listening and I will remove that goofy cartoon if you wish so just let me know.

Blessings,

Yogi

[over_it (over_it)]

YOGI - what about how you made fun of Dede Stoddard? That was uncalled for. What the hell did she ever do to you? That is rude.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks for being understanding Maria!

Actually, there was an incident when I was in Bible College involving Dede.

But out of respect for you and your kindness the thick-headed cartoonist will delete the stupid "walker" cartoon and "Dede" photos.

BTW. I am REALLY proud of your humility and convictions regarding a "change of view" on GGWO. I KNOW it must have been and is VERY difficult after ALL these years. I can relate BIG TIME!

Blessings

Yogi

[british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)]

Yogi, Maria T. didn't post as "over_it" screenname today. She hasn't yet registered on Factnet and her IP is DSL not AOL. Most likely that was someone else that was a friend of Dede Stoddard. Dede and Kent Sutorius never were a friend to Maria in Bible College, in fact they did everything she could to maker her so stinking uncomfortable while she was in school that she eventually gave up. That girl had a 3.99 GPA there. Perhaps she was more on the ball spiritually than they ever cared to recognize. I know this is a fact from friends that worked in the office there who could never say anything to those in authority about it for fear of losing their jobs. It stunk in plain english.

I am sure when she does register she will appreciate your kind apology. She's not one to hold grudges. I know she can shoot straight from the hip but that's an admirable quality that most people don't have. You will get a truthful answer from her always. You removing her picture from that website is very kind.

The "209" poster is just plain nasty and obviously has a problem with Maria's posts. Too bad!! There were times Neil was a pain in everybody's rear and he did indeed bulldoze his way attacking godly women on here and he deserved it because he provoked them.

I don't post much here but when I do, I mean what I write. You were right about people having difficult times with leaving GGWO. Some were so wounded like Maria. None of us have any idea at all beyond our own pain as to what anyone else has gone through, and when things get us upset we all spazz out and rip the shreds out of people without meaning to or thinking about what we wrote until later on. Remembering that we are all the Lord's children going through different stages of healing should allow all of us to give each other some slack.

As for me? When I'm out I'm moving to the UK but not to any GGWO related church.

British Sponge Bob

[british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)]

I also look at people's hearts Yogi not their weight. Most overweight people that I know are some of the most precious godly people. They also are subject to the most disgusting ridicule from "christians" with no obvious vertical with God. What a shame, many miss out on their portions because of their ignorance.

B.M.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

I think you tools believe that A) i'm Neil, which i'm not and B) that both sites are from the same person...which they are not!

[yogi (yogi)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif
You're very sweet and appreciated Brit-Sponge-Bob!

OTP, frankly I don't think you're responsible for both sites!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[alex (alex)]

Of course orangetopay did not do the cockatrice-eggs site! The graphics alone are a telltale sign that someone else did this! OTP's pictures look like pictures cut from a magazine with Carl's head sloppily pasted on! CE's clearly is an artist of some sort with a gutsy and intelligent sense of humor!

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

alex you're a tool

[yogi (yogi)]

<font color="ff6000"><font size="+2">http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gifHAPPY THANKSGIVING!</font></font>http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Dear Yogi,
Sorry its taken me so long to get back to you. I appreciate your removing my "photo" from that website and for your sweet note of apology. I also would like to ask you for an apology as well. I flamed you in anger and I'm sorry. I opened a door for attack using the self-depreciating humor. I hide by it rather than letting people know something they did really wounded me. However, I can't hide behind that facade like I used to do and pretend that I don't care about what people say/do, because I do care, whether its directed at me or not.

Please do me one favor. Please don't think that you lost your job as a result of some kind of "curse" from you leaving GGWO. God is not like that one single bit. I know there are a lot of thoughts in many of our heads that God is going to show us are wrong from the teaching we heard that was off. However, in the midst of it we need to remember that there also was teaching that was good too. I just can't believe everybody else posting on here left you hanging with those thoughts. I hope you have found another job, I've been praying for you most of this month. When I was in town I wasn't up to posting, I have had a lot of pain this month in particular and have been on bedrest in between trips I have had to take up north.

I read what "Sponge Bob" wrote too, and he was right about all of us being in different stages of healing. Sometimes we forget that and let our anger get the best of us.

Again I apologize for flaming you. Please forgive me.

Maria

[yogi (yogi)]

<font face="arial,helvetica">Thank you Maria for being so gracious about my... "Hey Boo-Boo!" It's good to have you back on Factnet.

Yogi</font>

[yogi (yogi)]

Good evening everyone! There is a "myth" circulating around the halls of GGWO that Pastor Ed Lutz has left this evangelical personality cult due to jealousy at not being named the new president of mbc&amp;s. Furthermore, the knuckleheads in leadership there are propagating some bizarre fiction that Lutz was off because of not soul winning. Quite frankly, he left because they submarined his wife. At any rate, will this ridiculous slander and stupidity on the part of those listening ever cease? hmmmm... In honor of this cockatrice-eggs has created a visual depiction for you, the viewers entertainment. Hope it brings a giggle to your lips and a jiggle to your bellys.

Yogi

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Yogi, Yogi, Yogi, (sigh)...have you been naughty again with those pictures???? Shame on you!!
LOL I'm just messing with you.

Ed Lutz is a great guy. I'm sure he's greatly missed around MBC&amp;S. He was one of my favorite teachers there. I would have never understood history without his teaching style and his way of presenting it. I used to die going to the Pentateuch classes -- OMG it was all I could do to stay awake, that one plus Hermaneutics. Grounds for getting an "F" for sleeping in classes that were boring as hell.

Yes, his wife was submarined. It was horrible. Truthfully he was offered the MBC&amp;S presidency, but he had demands of things that needed to change before he would take it, and Pastor Stevens refused to meet his terms. Then he was slam dunked by the elders. I believe the term presented to me was that they "ganged up on him" in a meeting. He was adament about his demands being met, they were as adament per Pastor Steven's refusing to acknowledge them. Nobody that knows anything have stated what the demands were at the time, some speculated that they had something to do with "delegated authority doctrine." Knowing Pastor Lutz as I have over the years, I doubt they were unreasonable demands. I was told that Pastor refused to meet him even halfway, so he walked out and refused the position.

I don't know about the soulwinning issue, Yogi. I remember him going when I first came in the ministry I was on one of his outreaches on Thursday mornings. As usual, somebody is running their mouth again....the old slander and submarine routine. Tsk tsk, shame on them!!!!!

Maria T

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Yogi,
Can you please email me your email address I have something to talk to you about off of Factnet.

gracekid2 at aol.com

just put Yogi from Factnet in the subject line so I don't accidentally delete it.
Thanks
Maria T

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

give me their names and pics and i'll trash them into the ground!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

[alex (alex)]

Cockatrice_eggs has some cool new stuff for Christmas! My favorite is the picture of Paul and Carl with Santa Claus; their faces are priceless!
Whoever made this sight up, you're killing my sides and face from laughing too much! Why does the Liquid Waves have Carl's picture off Cockatrice's website? Keep um coming you guys...
Alex

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hey Yogi,

Is there anything to the pic about a Dec 5th "secret" meeting and Lewis resigning this week?

I am intrigued by your up-to-the-minute information.. urr more than the average bear..

[yogi (yogi)]

Perhaps, but no doubt time will tell whose neck will be in the noose next! Wonder if the wounded Lewdass will post here on FACTNet?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Ah "perhaps".. love that word.. really, it is my favorite word.. that word holds such promise!

Yes, perhaps..time will tell..

I have now heard from several different people (still on the inside) that Lewis definitely quit. I heard that he had a meeting with CHS and came out of the office and quit.. perhaps we will hear more... perhaps it will be the very thing that will open the eyes of those "that drink the koolaid"... Whatever happens, I pray for anyone and everyone to leave, including the elders...

A quote from a Christian leader observing GGWO currently:

"You have to wonder whether the people leaving at this stage are rats getting off the sinking ship or are those with a shred of integrity left who can't take it anymore. Whatever the reason you have to wonder how far it will go. Bottom line the few left in leadership when CHS is gone will be those with the least integrity".

[yogi (yogi)]

Indeed jeannie! I often wonder why others will not heed the clear warnings offered here on FACTNet? Surely the truth hurts; however, subtle spiritual abuse continues to be very real and very damaging within Greater Grace. I am curious if others on this forum would agree that the short term pain of leaving far outweighs the offer of long term damage to one's soul for staying? Please keep us apprised of any breaking news regarding the good Dr.'s departure and/or the "secret meeting" of December 5th!

Good night,


Yogi

[maria_t (maria_t)]

I was told tonight by a close friend of Kathy Lewis's that the story of Dr. Lewis resigning is not true at all. She said that rumor has been circulating a lot lately and there is no truth to it whatsoever. This person spoke directly with Kathy Lewis earlier today and is a woman of integrity and can be trusted and is privy to some things going on behind the scenes. (And, no, they are not an elder's wife either).

The Lewis's want to move back to ME. Dr. Lewis would like to continue travelling for the ministry as he has always done, except his planes will leave from ME and not MD.

So, if anyone "hears" contrary to this, have them post the man's "resignation" letter BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE!

Maria_t

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks Maria!

You're the best,

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

Does anyone know if they had the "infamous" secret meeting on Sunday?

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Not me, I heard nothing about it at all.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks maria_t. Anyone else out there know anything? jeannie?

Yogi

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Yogi,

There is so much duplicity and evil being perpetrated by leaders in GGWO right now. Many of us are being quiet and observing how this will all play out. The leadership should be aware that not only are "the marked and discounted" watching but also many leaders from the Christian community are observing as well.

The Truth Will Prevail.

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Yes, they are watching. AMEN! But more importantly God is watching, and He sees all.

I'm just wondering how long He will put up with it before He judges it? They can't say they didn't have enough warning or time.

M or Michael

[lee (lee)]

Your'e right Michael, God is watching.
When I think about the history of this ministry. The years and years of repeated practices, I wonder how people can still believe the spin put on the current situation and I wonder how long God will hold judgment.
I wonder if people from the Wiscasset days, the days of the Conspiracy,and the days of the Trial would speak up now. Add your voices, to show those struggling right now with the confusion of lies, what the truth is.
The leaders are under pressure to respond to this forum. Believe me, they will. We'll hear something soon, and when we do, what will you believe?? Will you know what to think? Will you know what questions to ask? Will you dare question? Will you dare weigh the spirits?
My prayer is that God will begin his judgement.

[msspunky2005 (msspunky2005)]

After all these things have happened why is it now that people are coming forward and doing or saying these things? Why didn't this happen years ago? I am not looking to argue I am trying to figure this stuff out here. This is my church here that people are talking about.

MsSpunky2005

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

People have been talking for years about these things, but before FactNet there was no real way to talk publically where anyone would listen.

You have been taught to not recieve an evil report, that those of us who left the ministry were somehow evil, apostate and would harm your call.

Carl depends upon the veil of secrecy, accusations, lies and demonizing everyone who leaves. He attacks everyone who sees the truth and that may be why the truth that has been there all along has become news to you. He conditions people to not recieve the truth...that is part of the reason GGWO is considered cultic.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

MsSpunky2005,

Read what has been written here and elsewhere.

Whenever ANYONE has attempted to do the right thing and approach Carl or anyone else in a position of authority at GGWO, they are labeled as being off or worse! You know from being in GGWO that criticism of "Pastor" is a VERY BAD thing since Carl is considered to be "annointed" and "God's Man". So the focus is always turned away from Carl and back on to the person that has a concern. The congregant is always the person with the problem, never Carl. Since he is viewed as annointed, it is IMPOSSIBLE to criticize him, since doing so is considered being critical of God Himself!

At GGWO, a LOT is kept secret. Please, if you read nothing else, read the Alan Lang Affair. The focus at GGWO is to always maintain the facade that everything is AWESOME! Anything, no matter how truthful, if is critical of GGWO or especially Carl, is kept under wraps. This is to allow Carl to control and manipulate the flock.

Again, I encourage you to look at mainstream churches. There will certainly be areas of doctrine and Biblical interpretation that you agree or disagree with and this is normal. What I want you to look at is the role of the pastor. The normal, spiritually healthy church does not worship the pastor. They do not engage in "marking" people simply because a person leaves. The sermon at a healthy church is not constantly centered on the ME ME ME message of the pastor. I have never seen or heard a pastor that talks about himself or his ministry from the pulpit more than Carl.

What kind of a man preaches that criticism of HIS (Carl's) ministry will result in cancer or death? Carl preached this recently. Were you one of the ones who gave him a standing ovation for this? Do you believe this? Do you think that God told Carl that he would smite down anyone who speaks critically of Carl?

This is NOT a healthy church. It is a cult to worship Carl Stevens. Get out Spunky!

[lee (lee)]

Some folks spoke out after the ministry left Wisscasset. Then the big Conspiracy in Lenox some people tried to form more of a cohesive group to expose. Pat Manchester worked hard to do this. During the Trial, the newspapers, 60 miniutes, the court case itself would have been sufficient to inform people who would have had the inner liberty to read and check into and pray.....some did, many did not. All along the leaders would speak at services, raps, in cars etc about those that had left. Pat Manchester's character was ripped to shreds only to be left behind when someone else took her place.
Now we have the internet and its easy to include those from other states and countries that have knowledge. Although, I don't beleive any of us really want to destroy peoples lives, and we have tried conflict resolution, none of the approaches to make things right have worked. Someone usually has to become the scapegoat.....never, never, never has it been an honest repentence by those guilty. It's our responsibility as part of the church to tell it to the church. The internet has provided us with a place to do that with places like carlstevens.org and FACTNet, which gives all of us a voice.

[msspunky2005 (msspunky2005)]

I wondered about all that clapping stuff. I didn't cheer him on all the time. He's said a lot of very weird stuff lately. Like "nobody can leave this church without his permission." Me and my sister just looked at each other the time he said that. Recently he started yelling in the pulpit. Are pastor supposed to do that? We came from the catholic church, the priests never screamed from the pulpit. He was yelling about people needing to be at church all 3 services. Well I have a job on Sunday, Monday, Thursday, Friday and Saturdays and I work a lot of hours so I don't go to their raps and all that other stuff.
One of the ushers told me to get sundays off from my job that I needed to be here. I can't do that. I wouldn't have a job!

Mr. Fernalld and Mr. Martian I will be going to church tonight. Can you meet with me and my sister after the service?

MsSpunky2005

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I would meet you in a heartbeat, msspunky...but I live in Massachusetts. Perhaps one of the posters here who lives in Baltimore will see your request and be available to talk to you personally.

You are right about what you've been hearing from the pulpit lately. I might suggest that the questions you are having, the feelings of doubt may be a nudge from the Holy Spirit that this is not of God. Listen to the Spirit. He was given to you that you might recognize that which is Godly...sounds like this is happening.

I will begin today to pray specifically for you and your sister that someone will find and talk to you, that God will continue to reveal the corruption of this church to you and that he will lead you to a healthier church. I won't lie to you...I( hope with all my heart that the truth will be revealed to you more and more...for it is my heart that all be led away from this place that is not a healthy church.

My email is srfern@verizon.net, my name is Roberta and please feel free to contact me personally at any time...if I can be of any help, I am available for you.

Bless you.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I can't meet with you tonight but you can e-mail me at

thebig420guy@netzero.net

I have to be away from the computer (I have to do SOME work), but I will check back this afternoon.

Hang in there, people care about you!

Love,
Boss Martian

[msspunky2005 (msspunky2005)]

Thank you Miss Roberta and Mr. Boss for your kind answers. I will email you sometime today I have to think about what I want to say because I have so much to ask about.

MsSpunky2005

[bruder5 (bruder5)]

Lee, your thoughts on former members speaking out are a part of an ongoing story for many of us. I was in the Wiscasset days and left in 81. Many of us that left then have remained good friends. We spoke out in the Martin Report and during the trial. The struggle that many are having now has been our story as well. I have often been asked if I would write a book about the entire experience. I think the brokenness and confusion I hear on FactNet is an ongoing process of trying to "make sense" out of something so many committed there lives to. The good news for many is that a richer life with Christ will evolve. I work in addictions and see the devestating impact of people coming out of the GGWO'S of the world. I hope that many of you will consider developing a resource center for fellowship, counseling and a voice in the chaos.

[lee (lee)]

Thanks Bruder for speaking up. The idea of a resource center is thought provoking. I've thought for awhile now that something should grow out of FACTNet that will help people on a one to one basis would be good. How to do that is another thing entirely. I'd like to hear more.

[yogi (yogi)]

OPEN LETTER TO PAUL STEVENS, HIS FATHER AND ALL OTHER PASTORS WHO HAVE AND/OR DO SEXUALLY AND SPIRITUALLY ABUSE THEIR SHEEP.


"Evangelistic Romantics” may be likened to the fictitious character, "Don Juan.” Reference to this classic drama describes Don Juan as conquering, gallant, and romantic. However, should any pastor of the gospel impose this classification of Don Juan-ism to their ministerial post in order to prey on the weak and vulnerable, this is neither gallant nor romantic in the least!

Three categories result from this practice beginning with the letter “d”: the predator/pastor “Don Juan”, causes “damage” and “destruction” in his wake.

An outstanding feature of Don Juan is his amorous nature. The romance is what motivates him in this case, to transgressing the sexual ethics of the ministry. A pastor knows that to develop a sexual relation with any congregant is wrong and violates God’s standard of morality so he tries to avoid diligently any inappropriate behavior. But ... he falls in love.”

In this way, “Don Juan” falls in love and premeditatedly decides to initiate a romance and conquer his beloved. This romance generally develops from the pastoral relation where the professional and hierarchic limits become clouded over. Consequently, in the name of the love, our “Don Juan” pastor has justified before his conscience sexual involvement with a subordinate or parishioner. Flowers, gifts, e-mail love notes, sweet talk, special attention and emotive-words flow from our “Don Juan” for his beloved. Inspired by love, it does not matter if the one who is opposite to him is the wife or the daughter of a friend, a new sheep in search of spiritual orientation, or of a minor age. Even his own wife, a dear lady, is being disgraced and forgotten in the process and most importantly, HE IS VIOLATING GOD’S LAW!

No, this pastor predator is more dangerous than any other Don Juan. An absence of empathy for the persons he will damage, the premeditation with which he has stalked his victims and his aptitude for manipulation of his environment will end in the devastation and grief of the victim. Generally, on having been discovered, the predator pastor will use all the means in his power to destroy those that present accusations against him, or to those that support the claimants. Fierce counter-accusations, legal demands and intimidating actions may result. Threats of violence for any speaking out against God’s anointed may also be used as a means to silence dissent as well.

Should the context in which this pastoral sexual crime occurs be his church, one of the most dramatic edges is the polarization of others in power of publicly discrediting the victims and claimants of this misuse and abuse. Consider the Alan Lang case and others who have left GGWO as an example of this practice.

Depending on the pastor’s intellectual and rhetorical resources, he may use a repertoire of doctrinal weapons, such as, manipulation of fears and use of sacred symbols to achieve his ultimate goal, to silence the exploited. This process assures that the predator pastor’s reputation will be protected and continue. With his deacons and elders defending his ungodly acts the predator pastor [Don Juan] will feel his evil acts are justified and permissible. Unfortunately, the seduced woman will then be re-victimized, and considered an “enemy of “God's work.” Her denouncement of the “pastor” will be construed as, evil, lacking humility, non-submissive or any number of other slanderous labels. Furthermore, when the predator pastor manages to maintain the allegiances of the victim’s family, this case can turn into an even greater nightmare for her.

Damage to the church’s congregation is also serious.
Independent of his motives, predator pastors need to be removed at once from their pastoral position, be it for a season or forever. If they refuse to step down, it the responsibility of the church community to biblically correct the above mentioned pastor.

In today’s contemporary culture, many women have been, and are being, exploited sexually by their pastors. Society often views pastors as substitutes for paternal roles. It is not unusual for him to be identified as one’s spiritual parent or parent in the faith. This relation has a sacred connotation that no doubt complicates things when there is a pastoral breach of confidence. Post-traumatic stress syndrome and clinical depression can be the result of this exploitation. These consequences in the congregants are devastating and quantifiable. Therefore, today’s churches must make accountable those pastors who seduce anyone within their congregation.


A church consists of its congregants, not just its leaders. After all, the only reason a church exists at all is because of its membership. The church is a spiritual building, which deserves physical and emotional safety. Nurturance of the believing community should be the priority; not respect for the aspirations, vocation and professional future of the pastor who has abused his post! This should be a secondary concern and not negotiable.
If a pastor has to work as cabdriver to gain his sustenance, or has to prepare himself for another profession, it is a consequence of his own evil decision to exploit one of his congregants! When a lawyer or a doctor violates certain professional articles of association, they lose their license to practice; so why should it be any different with pastors?
Love, grace and Christian pity are invoked to justify the predator pastor’s remaining in his pastoral position. Does this really show love? One must wonder, because chances are he will once again abuse his station to satisfy his own lust. Christian love, as understood in Jesus' Golden Rule, does not prefer the personal interests of an egotistic pastor over the safety of the church. Those who advocate the permanence of a predator pastor are putting the congregation at risk. These advocates are being irresponsible, shutting their eyes to sin, and allowing the possibility of future victims. Arguments and biblical verses may be used to try to justify their stand; but this is not, and will never be, love.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Ms. Spunky2005,

As you can imagine, many of us posting here are from all over the place. Massachusetts, Maryland, the Carolinas, Missouri--I live in Texas.

You should read the Alan Lang statement which is lower on the threads on the main page.

Carl Stevens has for over thirty years provided doctrine which enables his sin.

He has demonized anyone who has ever attempted to call him to repentance--saying that no one can correct "God's man" which is tantamount to "touching God's anointed."

Ms.Spunky read these verses:

1 Tim. 5:19-20 (ESV)
Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [20] As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

We are witnesses who are gathered here as witnesses to the sin perpetrated by Carl Stevens over these many years.

He has lied to protect himself and his son.

He has covered up his own sins and those of his son.

He has lied about people who have left his church.

He has preached doctrines to enslave people to him and to a system of works to gain rewards at the Bema Seat--twisting Scripture to suit his purposes.

He has conducted secretive financial practices at his churches.

He has claimed over the years, whenever he was sent packing from an area that he was persecuted--never admitting a single personal wrong against anyone.

He has attacked people in 'rap sessions' and in private conversations, warning people not to communicate with them--even if they were members of their own family.

He has devalued marriage--counting loyalty to him as greater than devotion to the marriage vows.

He is now mentally and physically unstable and is most probably addicted to drugs.

He has created an environment where church members are valued only for their taking part in the activities of the "ministry" rather than as persons--for when they no longer take part they are 'marked and avoided' and labeled as being 'off.'

He has made a caricature of the Holy Spirit, making Him his own heavenly lackey--to 'get' things from him to preach that have 'never before been preached' and to give him a 'word of knowledge' or 'discernment of spirits' to make his followers feel he has a hotline to the holiest of holies and to strike fear into them that he may know their secrets without asking or that he may even be able to predict the future or direct them which person to marry--or not. He is like a medium who thinks that he channels God, and he gets the glory and the standing ovations rather than God. He has people believing that it is he who is 'laying down his life' rather than Christ who is to be praised.

Everything he preaches is anointed, according to him, given by a promise from God after an experience of 'liquid waves of love' passed over him--and according to him he has at least two angels (who some have actually seen, supposedly) hovering over him as he preaches.

Can you imagine the two (or more) angels of a holy God giving a standing ovation to a man who has just called a member of his own church a 'vomitous jerk' under an anointing from the Holy Spirit of God? Does that not border on blasphemy in your mind?

Until things change Ms. Spunky2005, I would suggest that you find a different place to go. There is a reason why your friends are not answering your questions. They think God will punish them if they question, if they go against 'God's man.'

I would submit to you that if you carefully consider the qualifications for an elder in 1 Timothy 3, who is to feed the flock of God (rather than devour them)you will find precious few in that organization in Baltimore who fulfill the minimal requirements:
1 Tim. 3:2-7 (ESV)
Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] <font color="ff0000">Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that <u>he may not fall into disgrace</u>, into a snare of the devil</font>.

From what can be discerned by the average person from Steve Stevens Sunday communication (I dare not characterize it as a sermon) they are going forward as never before as they have been taught. They have been taught badly, for longer than they know.

Greeks enquiring after Christ told his disciples, "Sirs, we would see Jesus." Ms. Spunky do you think you will see Jesus at GGWO?

[yogi (yogi)]

Ps. This can also be interpreted as an allegory for any spiritually abusive church, particularly Greater Grace World Outreach!

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Dear "Spunky"

I am someone who used to go to the Baltimore church and I am available also to help you with any questions you have. I may not know all the answers, I was only in GGWO since 1992 and a lot of the time I was in/out because of health problems. However I got quite an education while being there and much more of an education reading things here on Factnet and praying.

You have come to the right place, please do not stop posting here. I contact a lot of people that post on here by email and they have been such wonderful help to me and a support to me since I made my decision to leave.

One thing I will not do. I will not tell you to leave GGWO. The Holy Spirit has to do that honey. You and your sister need to pray and ask God to help you understand the reports that you should read posted on here. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you what is the truth in all situations.
I did, and He showed me. It was painful to see and hear these things and I am in a healing process right now.

This has nothing to do with loving your pastor or your elders. I loved our pastor and elders too. You have to separate what is sin and what is NOT right before the Lord Jesus Christ. Just remember one key thing. You are NOT disobeying God by posting on here if the Holy Spirit leads you to post. He obviously has, how else would you have found this website.

You will not get cancer or any kind of disease if you post on here or if you and your sister leave GGWO. Do not buy that lie. I did and thank God people posting on here reached out to me.

I can meet you and your sister tonight with another friend of mine if you would like. My email address is gracekid2@aol.com and I will be home most of the day today so I will check my emails 3:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. I will NOT meet you at GGWO or anywhere on their property. The main thing for you to do is just to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to show you what you are to do.

Don't be anxious. You are in a safe place and will not be hurt by people posting on here. They have been through far much worse things than we have been through and they are a wonderful group of Godly people. Talk to them too. I can tell you personally they have helped me immensely and my gratitude goes far deeper than I can say. Especially to Boss, Roberta, Jeannie, Lee, Bonnie, Karen, Doris and some others that don't post right now.

I am here if you want to talk.

Maria_t

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Spunky,

I will meet with you, my husband will, along with many others that have left GGWO.

Your questions mean the Holy Spirit is speaking to you and you are listening. He will direct your path. God has faithfully led hundreds and hundreds of believers out of GGWO and into healthy churches.

Please email me @ Jeannieree44@aol.com

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Dear Jim
I know we've batted each other a couple of times on here. I never wanted to get into any kind of spiritual debate with you, always fearing I'd lose. I just held off commenting about your posts.

However, today, I have to comment about the post you wrote to "Ms Spunky." In fact, I took it quite personally for myself for the first time.
You hit the nails on the head exactly 100 percent Jim. How I must have drove all of you crazy!! I couldn't see things for the longest time. Thank God I see them now.

I'm going to print your post and keep it close by as a reference point for whenever an old sentimental feeling will arise I will grab that paper and remember the things not only done to me but done to the brothers and sisters I have in Christ.

Love your friend Maria

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Msspunky

I would highly reccomend that you take the opportunity to meet with jeannie. She is a wise woman who can be of great assistance to you.

I also would add my voice to Jim Faucett's. Every single point he has made is spot on and excellent food for thought.

I am assured that if your search for the Holy Spirit's guidance and continue to reach out to those who have been where you are at now, you will see the truth about GGWO.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

And Ms.Spunky I am available here:

somebonus@yahoo.com

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Jim can be a great help, msspunky, especially in answering your questions about Pastor's teachings. Jim is always available to help you.

[bruder5 (bruder5)]

The Greeks often spoke of "the Royal Road." It was a call to return... At the heart of the brokeness caused by GGWO there is a larger kingdom work. "Sources for survival become sources for revival." FactNet has offered a point of connection for many. As a new writer it's my impression that a core group of writers could (and do) offer hope and dignity. Perhaps an on-line resource where folks could be referred to area churches, counseling or points of inclusion. Fawcett and others appear to speak with wisdom. A workshop or conference in a couple of strategic east coast cities would be cool. Brokenness has always provided the seed of revival. My outside opinion is that many posting on this site have the calling in brokeness to usher in a new chapter of authentic christian experience.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I'm game if you are bruder. And I'm sure Drago would be too.

[lee (lee)]

I say, this is a 'must do'. Please call on us when and if you need any help.

[msspunky2005 (msspunky2005)]

Thank you everybody for your kind words and support. I am going to read some of these articles you said with my sister. We will email people today or tomorrow and I think we will meet with a few of them.

Thank you so very much. Maybe someday I can meet some of you in person.

MsSpunky2005

[yogi (yogi)]

On a scale of one to ten I'd give your post a 20 Jim... Excellent job articulating the issues at hand!!!

[alex (alex)]

Yesterday, December 07, 2004, msspunky2005 wrote:"Rem you obviously are a sweet person wanting to think the best. I love your posts. There are some very blind people posting on here. There's nothing wrong with our church. No wonder our pastor tells people its satanic garbage on here."Look at how they made fun of Pastor Steve this past Sunday. They criticize everybody. Its weird stuff. Don't take it to heart. The real problem with these people is that they are bitter and unforgiving.


MsSpunky2005

msspunky2005 I am curious what has happened to change your mind within the last 24 hours?
No disrespect intended; just curious...would you please share what has happened to change your mind and heart?

Thanks,

Alex

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Right on, Jim!

[stephen (stephen)]

We should send people still in this cult Christmas cards using some of the artwork found at this website. I heard that someone left a picture of the Two-faced Paul Stevens on one of the doors of a bus used for Saturday Outreach and those stupid, unecessary "Barney Fife's" on duty ran around like chickens with their heads cut-off afraid of one of Carl's frequent outbursts! Guess someone slipped this onto "church" property without them knowing it. And their stupid survallance cameras to! Maybee they have a cache of weapons stoed at church to protect Carl from his imagined and real enemys.
Be sure and right the web address for factnet on the card to. GG leaders would sure "grunt" in their undies if we all did this wouldn't they....Cool!

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Good instincts, Alex. Having had a nagging feeling that the name MsSpunky was familiar, I did a little checking. A member registered on Discuss GGWO (the other board) under the name of Ms_Spunky. A bit too coincidental for me.

Who are you, MsSpunky? Why are you trying to convince us that you have just stumbled upon FACTNet? What purpose does your deception serve?

[stephen (stephen)]

msspunky are you a subversive bitch?

[stephen (stephen)]

or just scard ****less like the rest of us was?

[msspunky2005 (msspunky2005)]

I didn't email anybody because I am afraid now to trust anybody. I don't know what discuss ggwo is that Mr. "anon brief" wrote about. I am not playing any games. How come Mr. Anon Brief didn't ask stephen how come he just came on Factnet.

Miss Lee I didn't answer you with my email address because I didn't know who you are and I was scared people were going to report us to Pastor Stevens for being on Factnet. Then my sister said to ask Mr. Boss and Mr. RJFernalld to meet with us after church because they were talking to me on Factnet and they were very kind to me. Then we saw RJFernalld wrote she wasn't a man and didn't live here in Maryland. She said I should talk to Miss Jeannie and Mr. Jim. Before that 4 other people posted their email addresses. Miss RJFernalld, Mr. Boss Martian, Miss Maria T, and Miss Jeannie. I thought Miss Lee had asked them to put their addresses there for me. I thought she was kind to have them do that. Are you still upset with me Miss Lee because you posted angry at me?

Then Miss Doris emailed me herself. I didn't write any of you peoples back because I got sick to my stomach from crying so hard reading all this stuff about church. Then we saw something that Pastor Robinson lied to us about and I was crying even more. My sister was too.

Mr. Alex the post you copied was my very first post to rem. After that I just started reading and reading and then I started to ask a few questions. After that a lot of people wrote things for me to read directly and Mr. Jim even gave scriptures for me and my sister to look up.

we didn't change our mind about anything until just before church last night and together we decided we were not going to go. We are very scared that we are going to get in trouble with Pastor Stevens. He says it all the time that we are not to go on Factnet. We didn't even know what Factnet was until somebody at church finally told us on Sunday. We have a lot of questions even more today than yesterday. If people think we are fakers then we might as well stay right at Greater Grace with the liars there, because then Mr. Anon Brief you can say all you want about me here on Factnet and you will fit right into the Greater Grace group of liars.

So tell me where this discuss group thing is so I can go get my answers there since you people are ganging up on me now. All I wanted was some answers. Are you now showing me Pastor Stevens was right about Factnet? Are all of you thinking I am a liar and playing games?

Miss Jeannie, Mr. Jim and Miss Maria T I was going to email you today and Miss Doris too. Now I am not going to email anybody. Forget about me and my sister ok?

[msspunky2005 (msspunky2005)]

P.S. to Mr. Jim we did read the Alan Lang story yesterday afternoon it took us two hours. How stupid was my family to pay tithes all these years. I am not going to put 20 cents in the offerings anymore if I go back.

MsSpunky2005

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

msspunky2005,
I said before in another discussion not to take a few of these people too harshly. They've too have been burnt before and so question anyone that doesn't quite set with them. Nevertheless they should have given you time to explain yourself and understand your position. Hopefully they will ask forgiveness for it because it did get out of hand.

Hugs to you both
M or Michael

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

MsSpunky2005,
It is ok not to email us. Don't feel forced on our account. If you need help and there is something I can do, just let me know. I am not offended by your caution and many people who leave GGWO have similar emotions.

somebonus@yahoo.com

[yogi (yogi)]

Sorry to interrupt but...Boss Martian...I gots a widdle pwesent fo woo!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Yogi

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hey Yogi,

I confess to being blog-illiterate. I just realized one can click on the pics to enlarge. Now I know that is not Julia Child presenting the Thanksgiving turkey AND you have me carrying a picket sign that says "Do you believe in Santa,too?" I do believe in Santa, Yogi.. CHS, no; but Santa yes!

Where do you find the pictures? And have you put yourself in any of the pics? Kinda like a "Where's Yogi" game.

[yogi (yogi)]

jeannie, I hope you will understand my preference for taking the 5th on your questions. However, I am working on a surprise for you on cockatrice-eggs so stay tuned...

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/new.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/new.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/new.gif...BUT jeannie, there's a little "gift" waiting for you at http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/! Sorry it's a black &amp; white ditty; only had B/W photo available of "usted."http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Yogi

[lee (lee)]

Jeannie.....how lovely!!! You keep good company!

[alex (alex)]

Apparently MSSPUNKY was a figment of our imaginations?

[yogi (yogi)]

Ya know alex this whole MSSpunk mess sounds VERY suspicious to me! It sounded like two little girls who got busted in their prank on Factnet!

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

IZ, take a look at

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/ to see if Robbingsome is a TROLL!

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

As per your request lee, a "new" logo awaits those that might be interested. Also a little something "jazzy" was thrown in for you and Bob Brinton.

Yogi

[lee (lee)]

Great! thanks for the comic relief! Love the new name!
yeah, they blew it big time!

[yogi (yogi)]

You're welcome lee!
How do you spell relief?
C-O-C-K-A-T-R-I-C-E E-G-G-S!

Come one and all and view the new "home base" which mocks http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif the unwarranted exaltation of a mere drug addicted man at...

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

cheers,

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

Kirk, you can now be found at...

http://cockatrice-eggs.blogspot.com/

Yogihttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif