Charles Finney and liquid waves of love

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

I found Finney's 'spectacular' conversion testimony on the internet from a biography written by a devout Finney disciple named J.Gilchrist Lawson, Evangelist from his book "Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians" written in 1911
http://www.charlesgfinney.com/lawsonbio.htm

Talk about thrills and chills!!

Finney remained in a skeptical yet troubled frame of mind for two or three years. At last he came to a decision that the Bible was the true Word of God, and that it was the fault of the people if their prayers were not answered. He was then brought face to face with the question as to whether or not he would accept Christ. "On a Sabbath evening, in the autumn of 1821," says he, "I made up my mind that I would settle the question of my soul's salvation at once, that if it were possible I would make my peace with God." …

During Monday and Tuesday his conviction of sin increased, but his heart seemed to grow harder. Tuesday night he had become very nervous, and imagined that he was about to die, and sink into hell, but he quieted himself as best he could until morning. Next morning, on the way to the office, he had as clear a view of the atonement of Christ as he ever had afterwards. The Holy Spirit seemed to present Christ: hanging on the cross for him. The vision was so clear that almost unconsciously he stopped in the middle of the street for several minutes when it came to him.

North of the village and over a hill lay a piece of woods, or forest, and he decided to go there and pour out his heart in prayer. … He was on the verge of despair, having promised God not to leave the spot until he settled the question of his soul's salvation, and yet it seemed impossible to him to settle the question. "Just at this moment," says he, "I again thought I heard some one approach me, and I opened my eyes to see whether it were so. But right there the revelation of my pride of heart, as the great difficulty that stood in the way, was distinctly shown me. An overwhelming sense of my wickedness in being ashamed to have a human being see me on my knees before God, took such powerful possession of me, that I cried at the top of my voice, and exclaimed that I would not leave that place if all the men on earth and all the devils in hell surrounded me…

"I prayed," says he, "until my mind became so full that, before I was aware of it, I was on my feet and tripping up the ascent toward the road." On reaching the village he found that it was noon, although he had gone into the woods immediately after an early breakfast. He had been so absorbed in prayer that he had no idea of the time. There was now a great calm in his soul, and the burden of sin had completely rolled away, yet he was tempted to believe that he was not yet born of God. He went to his dinner, but found that he had no appetite. He then went to the office and took down his bass viol, and began to play some hymns, but his soul was so overflowing that he could not sing without weeping…

On the evening of the same day in which Finney received the pardon of his sins, in the manner already described, he received a mighty overwhelming baptism of the Holy Spirit which started him immediately to preaching the gospel. We will allow him to describe this filling of the Spirit in his own words. Continuing the narrative of his conversion, he says:

"After dinner we (Squire Wright and himself) were engaged in removing the books and furniture to another office…"By evening we got the books and furniture adjusted; and I made up, in an open fire-place, a good fire, hoping to spend the evening alone. Just at dark Squire W----, seeing that everything was adjusted, bade me good-night and went to his home.

I had accompanied him to the door; and as I closed the door and turned around, my heart seemed to be liquid within me. All my feelings seemed to rise and flow out; and the utterance of my heart was, 'I want to pour my whole soul out to God.' The rising of my soul was so great that I rushed into the room back of the front office, to pray.

"There was no fire, and no light, in the room; nevertheless it appeared to me as if it were perfectly light. As I went in and shut the door after me, it seemed as if I met the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. It did not occur to me then, nor did it for some time afterward, that it was wholly a mental state. On the contrary it seemed to me that I saw Him as I would see any other man. He said nothing, but looked at me in such a manner as to break me right down at His feet.

I have always since regarded this as a most remarkable state of mind; for it seemed to me a reality, that He stood before me, and I fell down at His feet and poured out my soul to Him. I wept aloud like a child, and made such confession as I could with my choked utterance. It seemed to me that I bathed His feet with my tears; and yet I had no distinct impression that I touched Him, that I recollect.

"I must have continued in this state for a good while; but my mind was too much absorbed with the interview to recollect anything that I said. But I know, as soon as my mind became calm enough to break off from the interview, I returned to the front office, and found that the fire that I had made of large wood was nearly burned out.

But as I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Ghost descended on me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love; for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.

"No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. The waves came over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, 'I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me.' I said, 'Lord, I cannot bear any more;' yet I had no fear of death."

"When I awoke in the morning the sun had risen, and was pouring a clear light into my room. Words cannot express the impression that the sunlight made upon me. Instantly the baptism that I had received the night before, returned upon me in the same manner. I arose upon my knees in the bed and wept aloud with joy, and remained for some time too much overwhelmed with the baptism of the Spirit to do anything but pour out my soul to God.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Thanks Dave for posting this. Carl Stevens is the only person I hadever heard state the "liquid waves of love" phrase. I always thought that was a bit quirky on his paort I know someone posted awhile ago that it truly was a copy of the works of Finney and a fraudulent representation of the Holy Spirit.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Hydromancy.

[lee (lee)]

funny brief......is that a real word?

two new vocab words in one day! I wonder how I can put vomitorium and hydromancy in my sentences today!

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Just in case you did not read the whole post here is the most interesting part:

But as I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Ghost descended on me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love; for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.

"No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. The waves came over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, 'I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me.' I said, 'Lord, I cannot bear any more;' yet I had no fear of death."

[yogi (yogi)]

Plagiarism once again?
Gotta admit it though; Carl's read a few books in his day. It's too bad he lacks originality and scrupples...the BIG dummy!

Yogi

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Dave,

Thanks for posting this. I grew up in that area of New York. In local history books, Watertown is remembered for the mills on the river, Sackets Harbor for the naval base, but Adams for its piety, because Finney had been preaching there for a while. I think I know the hill Finney means. US 11 goes over the hill now.

I know the villages that Finney preached in. Evans Mills (which is in Jefferson County, not Oneida) can't possibly have more than 500 people. Black River might possibly have a couple thousand. Gouverneur up in Saint Lawrence County might also be a couple thousand; it's not incorporated as a city at any rate. I think it's neat that Finney preached in these villages which are smaller than many church congregations, when he could have just headed for the big cities right away.

While I really appreciate that Finney was used by God to lead so many to Jesus, I don't agree with the thrust of his theology. He emphasized human responsibility to a degree that I have trouble seeing "by grace alone" in his messages. And it's interesting that you can see his legal training in his view of the atonement. It's worded very legally, (I do mean legally and not legalistically.) The age of Jacksonian Democracy was a big influence in Finney's life, and you can see it in his theology. If Finney's training in a completely different career affected how he expressed his beliefs, how much more do the doctrines preached in TBS / GG affect the beliefs of those who hear them?

Hodeuon

[yogi (yogi)]

Frankly, I got sick and tired of hearing about "OUR pastor's vision" and "Wonderbread" pond! What idolatry and bull****!

Yogi

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Jack Hyles also influnced CHS. He always spoke fondly of him. Jack Hyles talked about this extra special power. This is from an excerpt of his "Fresh Oil" Sermon...More thrills and chills
http://www.wilderness-cry.net/bible_study/courses/holy_spirit/ch05.html

"I was no seeking sinless perfection nor was I trying to name what I wanted God to give me. I had no desire to speak in tongues not did I even desire to have some kind of an experience. I just wanted God to work in the hearts of the people while I preached and witnessed. Could it be for me? Yes, it was for Samson, for Gideon, for Torrey, for Moody, for Billy Sunday, for Jonathan Edwards, for Muller, for Whitefield, for George Fox, for Christmas Evans, for Savonarola, for Peter Cartwright, for John Rice, for Bob Jones, for Lee Roberson, but was it for me? I was just a country preacher. I can recall how my eyes fastened on Isaiah 40:31 and Acts 2:4 and Acts 4:31. I was hungry!

MY COMMENT..OK SO FAR...BUT READ ON)

"I must have results. I must have power." I can recall saying to God, "I'm not going to be a normal preacher. I'm not going to be a powerless preacher."

Night after night I would walk through the pine thickets of east Texas, up and down the sand hills, begging God for His power. If you had driven down Highway 43 outside Marshall, Texas, on the way to Henderson, Texas, in the wee hours of the morning, you could have heard me praying, "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" and begging God to give me power.

I was losing weight. I couldn't eat. What I did eat came back up! My family was worried about me. My deacons got together and said to me, "Pastor, you've got to take care of yourself. You are going to get bad sick."

Then came May 12, 1950. All night I prayed! Just about sunrise I fell to my face in some pine needles and told God I would pay the price, whatever it was, for the power of God! I did not know what I was saying. I did not know what that meant.

In less than four hours, my phone rang in our little country parsonage. The operator said that it was a long distance call for Reverend Jack Hyles. She put the call through and a voice said, "This is Mr. Smith. I work with your dad. Reverend Hyles, your dad just dropped dead with a heart attack." I put the phone down. I could not believe what I had heard. Just a few months before I had preached to my Daddy, but I was powerless. He did not get saved. I had witnessed to him, but once again I was powerless and he did not get saved. He had promised me the first of January, 1950, that in a few months he would come back to east Texas and receive Christ as his Saviour. He never made it. As far as I know, he died without Jesus under the influence of alcohol. We drove to Dallas to the same funeral home that later embalmed President Kennedy when he was killed. On May 13, 1950, Mother's Day afternoon, we had a little service in the chapel.

We then followed the hearse about 50 miles south to a little cemetery on the northeast corner of Italy, Texas, where two of my little sisters were buried. Down near the creek was a hole in the ground. They lowered my daddy's body in the grave.

Not long after, I returned to that grave and fell on my face and told God I was not going to be a powerless preacher any more and that I was not going to leave that grave until something happened to me.

I don't know how long I stayed. It may have been hours; it may have been days. I lost all consciousness and awareness of time. I did not become sinlessly perfect nor did I talk in another language nor was I completely sanctified, but my ministry was transformed!"

Now, I am all for prayer. I am not criticizing that. But, by claiming you have been given this extra special power how can you ever be wrong? Does this not imply you cannot reach spiritual power in your service unless you have some unusual experience?

For Him,
Dave

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Also available on Audio
http://jackhyles.net/sermons.shtml

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Lee, it is indeed a real word.

hydromancy - divination by the appearance or motion of liquids (as water)

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

I am not here to defend Carl Stevens. But throughout history many Christians including many among us, have had supernatural experiences with God. It is not uncommon nor is it strange.

God is supernatual. I am just wondering why this thread is here.

It could very well have been the Stevens had an experience with God but it is very obvious he got off track and started to misinterpret many things.

It may have changed his life back then and he may have started out with the best intentions and got caught up in more than he could handle.

We reap what we sew, but we are not in a position to judge if this is what is happening to him.

He made some serious mistakes, true. He is a man. He needs prayer and correction. We can pray and God will correct and choose the men He would have to also correct Stevens, Schaller and the others who are off and hurting more people than I can count.

but back to my point...God can give anyone of us a supernatural experience and I am just saying that Carl really believes he had one. Pity him, have mercy and pray for your enemies and your brethren.

God bless you all. I am not looking for a debate just sharing what God put in my heart to share.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

The Hyles emphasis on power strongly reminds me of the guy in Acts who wanted to buy it. People who go into the occult often want power. My mother was involved in it before she was saved, and bore testimony of this publicly many times. If power is from God, its purposes are His own rather than ours. It's not about becoming a 'better' or more effective speaker. Someone who can hardly put two words together can suddenly speak with great power and authority. It's not something that belongs to you; and thirsting for it is very dangerous.

[yogi (yogi)]

Mercy,

I don't think anyone is knocking "supernatural" experiences. However, they are knocking Carl's stealing verbatim Charles Finney's experience and making it his own! Perhaps his experience was real after all; nevertheless, Carl's charlatanism has brought his integrity and ANYTHING he does, or has done, into question. Hope this brings another perspective to you.
Yogi

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm reasonably certain that if Jesus Christ Himself PHYSICALLY apppeared to me, personally baptised me, and told me that I was to go forth and preach the Gospel and that every sermon would be annointed, I don't think I would need bodyguards. Maybe I'm naive, but I would think that if God thought that my preaching (as opposed to that of thousands of Godly and qualified pastors) was so important that He needed to PHYSICALLY appear to me, He would make sure I was protected.

I still have a real hard time accepting Carl's need to have so much personal security when he claim's to be "God's Man".

And while I definitely believe that God has and continues to operate in supernatural ways, Carl spends WAY too much time crowing about his experience. In Carl's case (and I think in those cases presented by Dave), I believe the story is made up in order to gain power and superiority. I don't have proof, just big doubts.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

"God is supernatual. I am just wondering why this thread is here."

I am so glad you asked this question. We all should be able to ask and answer when something is troubling us.

1. This thread is here for several reasons. We need to learn the difference between judging and condemning. In our English translation 'judging' is a broad word which can mean condemn, criticize (KRINO), or it can also be used to mean discern and think (DOKIMAZO).

2. This thread is here to allow you to read, discern and use your critical thinking skills (DOKIMAZO) and draw your own conclusions.

3. This thread is here for discussing biblical doctrine, and God's methods of dealing with us mere mortals straight from the scriptures.

4. This thread is here because these 'experiences’ which can only be verified by the party claiming the event causes many believers (esp. young 'preacher boys') to believe that they must have some unusual event occur to empower/endorse/validate their ministry as having an extra-extra-extra-extra-extra- special anointing. If it does not happen they are left questioning their calling, etc...

5. This thread is here to point out that those who claim such events are usually unapproachable and uncorrectable. Also, it causes those in their ministry to think that this same person is on a higher plain, has a greater grace, a greater anointing and a greater connection to the same throne. It usually manifests itself with the leader in question believing he is above all other christians.

6. This thread is here to point out that while Finney, Hyles and Stevens all are/were known to be fervently evangelistic and claim/claimed a supernatural empowerment they also are/were known to have sloppy theology and refuse correction when confronted. Also, they all attacked and maligned and discredited those who questioned them. They truly believed that they were God’s Varsity Team. The best of the best, etc… Is this a good thing?

7. This thread is here to encourage us in the anointing and power that all believers share in common. The very anointing and empowering that Jesus HIMSELF gave us! You are on even ground. Of course, we thank God for the pastors and teachers that God gives HIS CHURCH (Ephesians 4:11). We thank God for their laboring hard in the Word and prayer (1 Thess. 5:12-14). However, their claim to a supernatural event does not place an extra-extra-extra-extra-extra- special anointing or blessing on their lives’. Their doctrine causes pride and confusion in the body of Christ and it should be questioned and examined. I wonder why they do it!

Hear Jesus words on this subject:

We all have HIS authority to share HIS message:

Matthew 28
18Jesus, undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge: "God authorized and commanded me to commission you: 19Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 20Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age." (The Message)
We all have the anointing:

1 John 2
20But you belong. The Holy One anointed you, and you all know it. (The Message)

1 John 2
27But they're no match for what is embedded deeply within you--Christ's anointing, no less! You don't need any of their so-called teaching. Christ's anointing teaches you the truth on everything you need to know about yourself and him, uncontaminated by a single lie. Live deeply in what you were taught. (The Message)

I hope this helps answer your question.

8. This thread is here for us to examine what we hear. I hope this helps answer your question. May we all live deeper in the truths of Jesus Words.

1 John 4
1My dear friends, don't believe everything you hear. Carefully weigh and examine what people tell you. Not everyone who talks about God comes from God. There are a lot of lying preachers loose in the world. 2Here's how you test for the genuine Spirit of God. Everyone who confesses openly his faith in Jesus Christ--the Son of God, who came as an actual flesh-and-blood person--comes from God and belongs to God. 3And everyone who refuses to confess faith in Jesus has nothing in common with God. This is the spirit of antichrist that you heard was coming. Well, here it is, sooner than we thought! 4My dear children, you come from God and belong to God. You have already won a big victory over those false teachers, for the Spirit in you is far stronger than anything in the world. 5These people belong to the Christ-denying world. They talk the world's language and the world eats it up. 6But we come from God and belong to God. Anyone who knows God understands us and listens. The person who has nothing to do with God will, of course, not listen to us. This is another test for telling the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of deception. (The Message)

For Him,
Dave

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Dave

This is THE most balanced treatise I have heard to date on this particular issue. Thank you very very much. This is the balance that can answer many questions for those who have left and still are confused, and it also is the message for those who may have contemplated leaving but are emotionally tied to the false pastor/teacher message Carl has imposed upon them.

Wow, I just reread it...this is so timely and right on. Thanks again, Pastor Drago.

Roberta

[minutus (minutus)]

Thanks, Dave. My personal view (one which I have not taken the time to research deeply but hope to in the future) is that the anointing of the Holy Spirit that teaches in I John 2:27 is directly related to the teacher's submission to the teaching of the apostles given by that same Spirit. The farther a teacher strays from that into his own emphases, the less the Holy Spirit validates his teaching in the hearts of believers. It's not an emotional thing at all, but a settled conviction of the truth of the message based on Scripture. It seems from the context that those to whom John was writing were being told that they needed "special" teachings from particular people to grow (sound familiar?).

The beauty of the Gospel is that it can be understood by the simplest child and hidden to the most educated scholar. The Holy Spirit makes the difference.

[minutus (minutus)]

Also on the topic of spectacular experiences, such things should humble the recipient more than other believers:

12:1 It is necessary to go on boasting. Though it is not profitable, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven.
12:3 And I know that this man (whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows) 12:4 was caught up into paradise2 and heard things too sacred to be put into words, things that a person is not permitted to speak.
12:5 On behalf of such an individual I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except about my weaknesses.
12:6 For even if I wish to boast, I will not be a fool, for I would be telling5 the truth, but I refrain from this so that no one may regard me beyond what he sees in me or what he hears from me,
12:7 even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me—so that I would not become arrogant.
12:8 I asked the Lord three times about this, that it would depart from me.
12:9 But he said to me, “My grace is enough11 for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So then, I will boast most gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may reside in me.
12:10 Therefore I am content with weaknesses, with insults, with troubles, with persecutions and difficulties1 for the sake of Christ, for whenever I am weak, then I am strong.

On top of it all, Paul, the "5-Star General" of New Testament revelation, was humbled with a debilitating condition that left him dependent solely on the grace of God.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Thank you all for your posts. It puts everything into perspective. This thread is probably now one of the most important threads here and I understand so much more than I did before.

Thank you all again.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

What did Finney think a revival of religion was? Whose work was it mainly--Man's or God's? Here is some insight from the man himself:

"WHAT A REVIVAL OF RELIGION IS

Religion is the work of man. It is something for man to do. It consists in obeying God with and from the heart. It is man's duty...A "Revival of Religion" presupposes a declension. Almost all the religion in the world has been produced by revivals. God has found it necessary to take advantage of the excitability there is in mankind, to produce powerful excitements among them, before he can lead them to obey. Men are so spiritually sluggish, there are so many things to lead their minds off from religion, and to oppose the influence of the Gospel, that it is necessary to raise an excitement among them, till the tide rises so high as to sweep away the opposing obstacles. They must be so excited that they will break over these counteracting influences, before they will obey God. Not that excited feeling is religion, for it is not; but it is excited desire, appetite and feeling that prevents religion. The will is, in a sense, enslaved by the carnal and worldly desires. Hence it is necessary to awaken men to a sense of guilt and danger, and thus produce an excitement of counter feeling and desire which will break the power of carnal and worldly desire and leave the will free to obey God.

The state of the world is still such, and probably will be till the millennium is fully come, that religion must be mainly promoted by means of revivals. How long and how often has the experiment been tried, to bring the church to act steadily for God, without these periodical excitements. Many good men have supposed, and still suppose, that the best way to promote religion, is to go along uniformly, and gather in the ungodly gradually, and without excitement. But however sound such reasoning may appear in the abstract, facts demonstrate its futility. If the church were far enough advanced in knowledge, and had stability of principle enough to keep awake, such a course would do; but the church is so little enlightened, and there are so many counteracting causes, that she will not go steadily to work without a special interest being awakened. As the millennium advances, it is probable that these periodical excitements will be unknown. Then the church will be enlightened, and the counteracting causes removed, and the entire church will be in a state of habitual and steady obedience to God...


It is altogether improbable that religion will ever make progress among heathen nations except through the influence of revivals. The attempt is now making to do it by education, and other cautious and gradual improvements. But so long as the laws of mind remain what they are, it cannot be done in this way. There must be excitement sufficient to wake up the dormant moral powers, and roll back the tide of degradation and sin. And precisely so far as our own land approximates to heathenism, it is impossible for God or man to promote religion in such a state of things but by powerful excitements. This is evident from the fact that this has always been the way in which God has done it. God does not create these excitements, and choose this method to promote religion for nothing or without reason. Where mankind are so reluctant to obey God, they will not act until they are excited...

A REVIVAL OF RELIGION IS NOT A MIRACLE.
It is not a miracle, or dependent on a miracle, in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of the constituted means--as much so as any other effect produced by the application of means...

I said that a revival is the result of the right use of the appropriate means. The means which God has enjoined for the production of a revival, doubtless have a natural tendency to produce a revival. Otherwise God would not have enjoined them. But means will not produce a revival, we all know, without the blessing of God. No more will grain. when it is sowed, produce a crop without the blessing of God. it is impossible for us to say that there is not as direct an influence or agency from God, to produce a crop of grain, as there is to produce a revival. What are the laws of nature according to which it is supposed that grain yields a crop? They are nothing but the constituted manner of the operations of God."

[nonotone (nonotone)]

One MAJOR Question?

Other than Finney's recognition of a so-called "agency of God" (mentioned in the last paragraph), where is the operation in the Holy Spirit in all of this?


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

good question Brian, according to that document it must be in the word 'excitement', which to my count was 9 times

[susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)]

Boss, I agree with you about the bodyguard thing.
Corrie ten Boom rose one night from her bed and went to the kitchen where her sister was making tea because she was wondering why Betsie was up so late. Suddenly a bomb hit their house (WW II)and when Corrie returned to her bedroom, there was a big piece of glass (or something else, I can't remember what it was right now) on her pillow. When she began to freak out, Betsie calmly told her to stop because in God's world every place is just as safe/unsafe. (from the book "The Hidingplace")

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Thanks Dave Drago for so articulately teaching all of us some very important Biblical doctrines about pastors and teachers. It is a great help to those newly leaving GGWO. It helps me clarify things I have known in my heart. One of those things being that Carl Stevens was a charlatan right from the start.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

This thread showing how Carl Stevens borrowed material from other people’s testimonies and Jim Faucett’s post on December 11, 2004 at 3:36 pm the ‘real root of the problems at GGWO’ got me thinking about the terminology used by GGWO members called ‘the anointing’. I have read many posts and I talked to an old friend last Summer who frequently mentioned ‘the anointing’ . My recollection of ‘the anointing’ when I was in TBS was the intense services where the air seemed so heavy you could cut it with a knife. I remember sitting in South Berwick, ME in the chapel when Carleluia preached a message declaring that he was the ‘apostle’ of the last days. It was heavy. I remember when I was in the painful process of leaving that Carleluia preached me a personal sermon about ‘the dog returning to its own vomit’. I felt like a lightning bolt would come through the roof and zap me at any moment. It was truly an intense emotional experience felt deep within me because I had succumbed to some powerful mind control. Did it have anything to do with God’s spirit?

Many years later after leaving TBS, I would hear ‘Telephone Time’ or someone would throw on a TBS tape for a laugh. I would feel so embarrassed that I ever shouted ‘Amazing’ or ‘Amen’ to such a bunch of psychobabble. I felt similar emotions last Summer when I tried to watch Schaller on the internet preach at the international cult convention. It is quite a blow to one’s ego to realize that their life was devoted to a bunch of contrived baloney. Carl Stevens and his band of merry men are experts at public speaking and mind control. Yes, there are many wonderful sincere Christian people in GGWO but they have been deceived by a group of expert charlatans. I know from personal experience.

I mention again Jim’s post on December 11, 2004 at 3:36pm on the ‘real root of the problems at GGWO’ thread. Carl Stevens left Woolwich, ME with his band of devout hippies to form a new church because he was caught in some serious sin. This organization began with a man who intentionally used Jesus’ precious message of salvation to take advantage of people. He has trained all these current elders to be just like himself. Do you really think it is possible for these elders to come clean and GGWO could become a healthy church?

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

"The Anointing" is so miss understood. Unfortunitely this term is being used again and pushed by Schaller recently in Europe and U.S.A. IF you can't reconize it...you got to get your head examined...quoted by a highly respected pastor of GGWO. Is this not scary or not??

[yogi (yogi)]

"Do you really think it is possible for these elders to come clean and GGWO could become a healthy church?" NO, not unless they bring in an objective outside party to take over the head leadership of this cult and to hold their hand step by step until all these clowns go back to seminary and become REAL ordained ministers and have accountability in EVERY WAY! In the meantime, Carl Stevens needs to be placed in a resthome and given a NICE, BIG, jigsaw puzzle to work on until he goes to the great beyond to give an account to his Maker "face-to-face" as they say in this cult! And this meeting won't take place at Carl's "rap" under the Tree of Life either!

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

I mean no disrespect or dishonor to the Holy Spirit's [Ghost's] exisistence or beautifuland gentle leading.

However, Carl Stevens stolen use of "liquid waves of love" to describe HIS spiritual awakening is VERY appropriate don't you think? If we were to compare, the trots leaves one feeling much the same way this cult's antics do...DRAINED!

Yogi

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Let's get this anointing thing straight once and for all:

Jesus is called Christ because he is the LORD'S anointed one. In the Old Testament, three classes of individuals were anointed:

Prophets: the word itself describes someone chosen to speak for God, the Word of God bubbling from him like a stream of living water or if it is held back it becomes a fire in his bones.

Priests: offering sacrifices to God for the sins of people, offering prayers and intercession for the people of God, offering forgiveness of sin and pardon from God to the people.

Kings: chosen of God to reign, always to be in David's line, to judge the nations.

Christ is the fulfillment of all three Old Testament offices, He is our Prophet, Our High Priest, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is anointed by the Spirit without measure.

But why are we called CHRISTians?

This is from the Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 32. But why art thou called a Christian?

Answer: Because I am a member of Christ by faith, <font color="ff0000">and thus am partaker of his anointing</font>; that so I may confess his name, and present myself a living sacrifice of thankfulness to him: and also that with a free and good conscience I may fight against sin and Satan in this life and afterwards I reign with him eternally, over all creatures.

ANOINTED people of God have a part in Christ's anointed prophetic office:

They CONFESS His name!

ANOINTED people of God have a part in Christ's anointed priestly office:

They OFFER THEMSELVES living sacrifices of thankfulness to Him!

ANOINTED people of God have a part in Christ's anointed Royal office:

With a free and good conscience they fight against sin and Satan in this life and afterwards WE REIGN WITH HIM ETERNALLY OVER ALL CREATURES.

The scriptures tell us that we are a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, every one and we are sent into all the world to make disciples from all nations--WE ARE ALL ANOINTED with the anointing of Christ.

It doesn't get any better than that. The 'anointing' isn't some special power given to the preaching of a single individual. God could cause the stones to cry out if he desired or use an ass to speak. The Word is HIS, not ours or Carl Stevens. Anointing is not atmosphere, that you can manufacture or 'cut with a knife' it is partaking of the ministry of the Lord who love us and gave himself for us.

And now consider this much misused verse by Carl Stevens:

Isaiah 10:27 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

Does this mean that God will bless the preaching of 'God's man' so to release people from bondage? That is how Carl Stevens meant it. He said the 'anointing that breaks the yoke' would be in all his messages because this is what God promised him, when he got his liquid waves. What was Isaiah talking about? Was it preaching? No. God was talking to his people who were under bondage to Assyria and prophesied that they would be released from bondage by this 'anointing.'

Let me give you a vivid illustration:
Imagine a huge football player with a really big neck trying to button the collar button of his shirt, or that guy in the 'Incredibles' putting on his 'superguy' belt. The neck is so fat it pops the button right off, the guys gut is so big it sends the belt pinging around the room! That is the picture here! Reading another version will make this plain:

Isaiah 10:27 (ESV)
And in that day his burden will depart from your shoulder, and his yoke from your neck; and the yoke will be broken because of the fat."

Or another:
On that day his burden will fall from your shoulders, and his yoke from your neck. The yoke will be broken because of [his] fatness.

God does intend to bless and release his people through the preaching of the Word, this is true. But this word is about the fatness of the neck of the blessed person not the words of the preacher. Here is a kindred verse:

Isaiah 55:2 (KJV)
Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

10:27
So it will be in that day, that his burden will be removed from your shoulders and his yoke from your neck, and the yoke will be broken because of fatness.


When you listen to God, YOU are the one with the FATNESS, not the speaker or preacher. YOUR neck gets fat, YOUR soul is delighted. In either case the RECIPIENT is the one with the fat, the 'anointed' one!


ALL Christians are equally partakers of Christ's anointing--though we have a variety of gifts and offices. Carl Stevens, nor any other TBS/GGWO preacher has NEVER been any more 'anointed' than ANY other Christian.

To offer that any preacher is more anointed than anyone else is to exalt the clergy over the people, and the New Testament does not allow for this.

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

"COOL" <font color="ff0000"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"><font size="+1">http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif</font></font></font>

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I don't entirely agree here. I think people sometimes have a literal experience of God's presence through the Holy Spirit. They might experience this in the song service or in prayer or as they sing a song for others or preach. I believe that God sometimes enhances those places where we are meant to see some aspect of Christ; or when we actually come clean and repent of sin. I believe a lot of 'the anointing' that people thought they experienced back then was from God in response to their expectation and belief. Think about Ron Kelly or Mary LaFlamme. Think they were trying to deceive you? I don't.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

And John Coltrane is sooo coole. Unrelated topic here. Sorry. I'm listening and couldn't help myself.

[yogi (yogi)]

Bobby,

Personally I prefer Miles Davis myself! SMOOOOOOOOTTHHH and GRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVVVVVYYYYYYYY!

Yogi

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Thanks to all of you for your posts.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Yogi; I love Miles too. He was so intense. He would have been a good guy to have along in a meeting with the elders. He would intimidate the hell out of them.

[minutus (minutus)]

Ornette Coleman: Science Fiction

[lee (lee)]

Everytime I listen to Miles.....'My Favorite Things' I relax and gratefulness flows.....Miles is a master.

[johncollins]

.