Cordellbs Recommended Reading List

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

No one has been more loath to begin a new thread. But it seems to me that there are some who are interested in a journey of faith based on a careful study of the scriptures while paying particular attention to historical orthodoxy –there are plenty of threads to vent, “feel”, seek help from abuse, joke around, etc. My premise is that the doctrinal errors of Carl Stevens have led to the behavior that we debate here. I have used my pseudonym to help identify the thread, but feel free to make your own recommendations here, too.

When I left the Bible Speaks, or it may have just become Greater Grace, I began a slow process of unloading all the bad doctrine that I had been taught over the previous fifteen years. I began with a few great books. My own study has been a work in progress since 1987. I want to use this thread to help those who are earnestly enquiring into the faith with their reading.

I am happy to correspond with you about any of the books I recommend.

somebonus@yahoo.com

OK. Here’s the first... John Wesley, George Whitefield and many others attribute their spiritual awakening to this work. In fact, here’s a little excerpt to whet the appetite:

“We are to seek God as Paul tells us in I Corinthians 1:23, 24: We preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." Begin with Christ. He came down to earth, lived among men, suffered, was crucified, and then He died, standing clearly before us, so that our hearts and eyes may fasten upon Him. Thus we shall be kept from climbing into heaven in a curious and futile search after the nature of God.
If you ask how God may be found, who justifies sinners, know that there is no other God besides this man Christ Jesus. Embrace Him, and forget about the nature of God. But these fanatics who exclude our Mediator in their dealings with God, do not believe me. Did not Christ Himself say: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"? Without Christ there is no access to the Father, but futile rambling; no truth, but hypocrisy; no life, but eternal death.”

From: Martin Luther’s Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians.
You can read this online here:

http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/galatians/htm/iv.htm

Have fun.

Cordell
somebonus@yahoo.com

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Why did Jesus need to become human? For what cause did he die? These seem simple questions to Christians but how do we explain ourselves to those “without the camp?” This was the question addressed by Anselm in the classic “Why the God Man?” or “Cur Deus Homo?” An excerpt:

“For the more astonishing a thing it is and beyond expectation, that he has restored us from so great and deserved ills in which we were, to so great and unmerited blessings which we had forfeited; by so much the more has he shown his more exceeding love and tenderness towards us. For did they but carefully consider how fitly in this way human redemption is secured, they would not ridicule our simplicity, but would rather join with us in praising the wise beneficence of God. For, as death came upon the human race by the disobedience of man, it was fitting that by man's obedience life should be restored. And, as sin, the cause of our condemnation, had its origin from a woman, so ought the author of our righteousness and salvation to be born of a woman. And so also was it proper that the devil, who, being man's tempter, had conquered him in eating of the tree, should be vanquished by man in the suffering of the tree which man bore.”

You can read the entire classic online here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/CURDEUS.HTM

Cordell

somebonus@yahoo.com

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

This is from "Repentance and 21st Century Man," C.John Miller, 1975, CLC Publications, Fort Washington, PA 19034. Worth all the five bucks it will cost you just to read this sort of thing:


"We are not to make men our disciples but to make them disciples of the Lord. Therefore, repentance means that men must turn from trusting in empty cisterns like ourselves and thirst and drink form Christ alone (John 7:37-38)

Pastors and Christian workers are not merely to accept this as an interesting insight which is mildly relevant to their work. It is, in fact, a matter of spiritual life and death. Men today use priests, pastors, rabbis, psychiatrists, teachers, parents, and devout friends as substitutes for Christ."

A lot of CLC pubs are "deeper life" stuff including Watchman Nee. This recommendation is not a blanket endorsement of all their stuff.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

This one is from one who is still firmly in the dispensationalist camp. Reading this book for me was a "wake up" call. Highly recommended. While I don't agree on every point, i.e. I think regeneration occurs and then faith and its twin repentance are results of regeneration--this is still a great book. Excerpt:

"Assertion one today’s christian culture lacks a basic fear of god


Christians are no longer thought of as God-fearing people.

We fail to appreciate God’s holy character—

that we are to approach God with reverence and awe.

Today’s Christian culture prefers a sentimental,
romanticized, over-familiarity with God

treating Him as a friend who is always there for me.

What today’s Christian culture worships is largely a product of our own desires and “felt” needs—

a god created in our image.

It is not the God who is actually there. (1 John 5.21)"


"The Gospel According to Jesus" John MacArthur

go here for more:

http://www.discerningreader.com/gosactojesjo.html

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

“Let it be said from the outset—and repeated throughout—that the aim of good interpretation is not uniqueness; one is not trying to discover what no one else has ever seen before.

Interpretation that aims at, or thrives on, uniqueness can usually be attributed to pride (an attempt to “out clever” the rest of the world), a false understanding of spirituality (wherein the Bible is full of deep truths waiting to be mined by the spiritually sensitive person with special insight), or vested interests (the need to support a theological bias, especially in texts that seem to go against that bias). Unique interpretations are usually wrong. This is not to say that the correct understanding of a text may not often seem unique to someone who hears it for the first time. But it is to say that uniqueness is not the aim of our task.

The aim of good interpretation is simple: to get at the “plain meaning of the text.” And the most important ingredient one brings to that task is enlightened common sense. The test of good interpretation is that it makes good sense of the text. Correct interpretation therefore, brings relief to the mind as well as a prick or a prod to the heart.”


The above quotes are from a great little book on hermeneutics called,
“How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth”

by Gordon D. Fee, Douglas Stuart

Go here to see more:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310246040/104-3864186-9771144?v=glance

Cordell
somebonus@yahoo.com

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

“God’s grace works! Just as it worked at the cross in sealing and securing your redemption, it works when the Holy Spirit invades your life and transforms you with his powerful love. This is the Holy Spirit’s act in this drama of redemption. When he draws people to himself and creates new life within them, not circumstances, the devil, nor even death can keep God’s eternal love from conquering us.”

From “Putting Amazing Back Into Grace,” Michael Horton, Baker Book House Co., Grand Rapids, MI 49516

http://www.discerningreader.com/putambacingr2.html

This is a great book and a quick and invigorating read.

Cordell

somebonus@yahoo.com

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

“I never saw that I was a lost, undone sinner, exposed to the wrath of a justly offended God, and could do nothing for my own relief.
In this situation I continued until I entered college at Princeton, in the spring of 1770. I had not long been there, until a revival of religion took place amongst the students, and I believe, at one time, there were not more than two or three but what were under serious impressions. On a day which had been set apart by a number of the students to be observed as a day of fasting and prayer, --while the others were at dinner, I retired into my study, and while trying to pray, I got some discoveries of divine things, which I had never had before. I saw that the Divine law was not only holy, just and spiritual, but that it was good also, and that uniformity to it would make me happy. I felt no disposition to quarrel with the law, but with myself, because I was not conformed to it. I felt that it was now easy to submit to the Gospel plan of salvation, and felt a serenity of mind to which I had hitherto been a stranger. And it was followed by a delight in contemplating God’s glorious perfection in all his works. I thought I could see God in every thing around me.”

The testimony of John McMillan in “Revival and Revivalism: The Making and Marring of American Evangelicalism 1750-1858,” by Iain H. Murray, Banner of Truth, PO Box 621, Carlisle, PA 17073, 1994

For an interview with Murray about this book go here:

http://www.modernreformation.org/mr98/julaug/mr9804murrayinterview.html

somebonus@yahoo.com

Cordell
Well, these few ought to get you started for now, more later.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

“There is no doubt that Evangelicalism today is in a state of perplexity and unsettlement. In such matters as the practice of evangelism, the teaching of holiness, the building up of local church life, the pastor’s dealing with souls and the exercise of discipline, there is evidence of widespread dissatisfaction with things as they are and of equally widespread uncertainty as to the road ahead.

This is a complex phenomenon, to which many factors have contributed; but, if we go to the root of the matter, we shall find that these perplexities are all ultimately due to our having lost our grip on the biblical gospel. Without realizing it, we have during the past century bartered that gospel for a substitute product which, though it looks similar enough in points of detail, is as a whole a decidedly different thing. Hence our troubles; for the substitute product does not answer the ends for which the authentic gospel has in past days proved itself so mighty.

The new gospel conspicuously fails to produce deep reverence, deep repentance, deep humility, a spirit of worship, a concern for the church. Why? We would suggest that the reason lies in its own character and content. It fails to make men God-centred in their thoughts and God-fearing in their hearts because this is not primarily what it is trying to do. One way of stating the difference between it and the old gospel is to say that it is too exclusively concerned to be "helpful" to man – to bring peace, comfort, happiness, satisfaction – and too little concerned to glorify God.

The old gospel was "helpful," too – more so, indeed, than is the new – but (so to speak) incidentally, for its first concern was always to give glory to God. It was always and essentially a proclamation of Divine sovereignty in mercy and judgment, a summons to bow down and worship the mighty Lord on whom man depends for all good, both in nature and in grace. Its centre of reference was unambiguously God.”

From J.I. Packer’s Introductory Essay to John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.”

Read the whole thing here:

http://www.covenant-urc.org/literatr/jpiedddc-1.html


somebonus@yahoo.com

Cordell

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"Antichrist Unlimited
After many many decades of trying to "out" the antichrist, dispensational scholars need to consider changing their tactics. With failed antichrist candidates now including assorted popes, Kaiser Wilhelm, Napoleon, Mussolini, Anwar Sadat, Hitler, Stalin, Prince Charles, Bill Clinton, Ronald Wilson Reagan (count the letters in each name, fer pete's sake!), Juan Carlos, Gorbachev, and now, the spider-hole man, Saddam Hussein, what's a hopelessly flawed theology to do? If each failed nominee represented a million books less, the Left Behind series is still a bestselling sensation. So we suggest that dispensationalism abandon theology completely, and become a literary movement in English departments across America.

On the down side, this also involves learning how to write."

A little humor from our friends at Credenda Agenda an online magazine which can be viewed here:

http://www.credenda.org/

[Anonymous (195.93.96.166)]

Thankyou...This is a very useful post and I plan to follow it up

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Thanks VERY much Cordell!

you quote:

"Let it be said from the outset?and repeated throughout?that the aim of good interpretation is not uniqueness; one is not trying to discover what no one else has ever seen before."

It seems to me that one of Pastor Carl H. Stevens' principle problems is that he has progressively "aimed FOR uniqueness" in his teachings, even to the point of mocking other, much more learned, frutiful (not to mention widely accepted) men of God who "just have simply not got this yet".?

In very many ABD classes, I frequently noticed his pattern of "defining something new" followed by statements like "... and you WILL NOT find this in ANY commentary, oh no, none of the scholars have gotten this.

[Anonymous (66.98.180.53)]

I started a new thread on the front of factnet discussions when I came home and saw this site.

Please go there and post.

I hope Factnet will change the way any GGWO group is done so this garbage doesn't happen.

I hope people will be more considerate of one another.

I like to request the factnet admins archive everything else so that the board is readble.

Neil Carrick


Anonymous (24.88.43.233)
Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 10:20 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New group for GGWO at Factnet is at:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2454.html?1088043373

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Thanks Cordell !!!

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Cordell needs to repent from his deceptive and erroneous teachings - he should not be thanked. He is no different than Stevens. Here's why:

Repost:

Cordell -

The real Martin Luther is not here - I have taken the liberty to take over the Job he started, and finish what he could not.

He was no God, but you make him into something untouchable. The man did not and could not conclude the matter of reconciling faith and works. He continued stuck in the syndrome of sin as a believer until he died trying to repent for something God in his Grace had already taken care of.

The religious zealots like yourself pick-up the bandwagon of reform, and neglect the fact that God was not in the business of "reformation".

Jesus came to "transform" by the renewing of the mind. He came to put sin to death, which he did, and promise eternal (sinless and holy) life to those outside of God, who repent from their unbelief and sin, receive the FREE gift.

The only repenting necessary is in the change of direction from self-sufficiency and self rule, to God sufficiency and his Lordship.

You, my friend, are straining at the Nat and swallowing the Camel. You are a whitewashed Christian, and a hypocrite. You hide behind the words and symbols, and intellectualism of a religion that is cracked and burning and ready to fall - like the twin towers. This “sin-centered” theology of yours is the very same faulty message of Stevens and all who came before him. Martin Luther was one of the founding fathers of it – ignorantly so however.

Just in case you don’t remember – Christ came to save “sinners” (the ungodly) from their sin, not saints (the Godly) from being sinners. The Apostle Paul was (at one time) the chief of them before he was saved – but he thanked God for the grace to deliver him from sin and cleanse him from ALL unrighteousness - Period. You have got it just as mixed up as Old Luther did. I’m here to set the record straight.

If, as you suppose, you sin every day and need to live a life of repentance, then what value is there to the cross, and the blood of Christ other than to initially saving you from being a sinner outside of God, and allowing you (by Grace) to continue sinning (as you had in the past) except this time you have Gods help to not sin? This is ludicrous!!!!!!!!

Your type of Christianity says that God gave “believers” another chance to have power over sin if they repent from it on a daily basis, make the necessary changes in their behavior to not do it again, and if they do fail, raise the white flag of surrender, receive Gods grace in that moment for the failure, pick themselves up off the ground, shake the dust of sin off their feet, and continue the process again and again. This is Carl Stevenism, and most of Christianityism.

Billy Graham and his son preach the same “half-baked” message. They proudly confess on National TV that they are sinners like the rest of the world, and they are not! How can they be when they have been washed of their sins, that they have been crucified with Christ, and now live in the resurrection and power of a holy and sinless God as his very own dear children?

You, Cordell, are in error and need to repent from it and take your own advice.

Christians do not’ sin and are no longer sinners therefore do not need to repent from them. 1 John 3: 3-10. Christ came to save unbelievers from sin, not Christians.

Chew on that for awhile and stop posting your credentials of ignorance of the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Christ is sufficient to make the vessel clean… and it is.

The Vessel is Clean!!!!!!!


Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

For clarity sake - The above rebuke was in response to Cordel's boasting that Christians need to live a life of repentance - which boast I object to because it is not an accurate portrayal of the purpose of Christ for the believer, and his work on the cross.

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

Cordell said:

"The REAL Martin Luther said it best:

Simil iustus et peccator.


The REAL Martin Luther knew that a life of repentance is necessary. "

Martin L.

[Martin L. (65.96.153.178)]

As you can see - I have a strong disagrrement with Cordell's premise

Respectfully,

Martin L.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Exegetical Fallacies, D.A. Carson, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids

"A must read for all students and teachers of the Bible.
Carson provides much preventive medicine in this book. Topics include:
Word-Study Fallacies
Grammatical Fallacies
Logical Fallacies
Presuppositional and Historical Fallacies
Concluding Reflections"
From the Discerning Reader

http://www.discerningreader.com/exfaldcar.html

Ever hear someone say in a sermon that God's power, "dunamis" is His dynamite? Why is this NOT good exegesis? Learn why in "word study fallacies."

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"Concise Theology," J.I.Packer, Tyndale

"A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs
This summary of Christian teaching covers nearly 100 major theological points from a biblical Reformed perspective. Brief, easy-to-understand chapters offer precise descriptions without sacrificing depth. Packer's philosophy is that theology is for doxology and devotion, and therefore he presents his material in a way that brings awareness of the divine presence.

An excellent outline of historic teaching... Packer brings a profound sense of reverence to the study of theology. Sound, warm, and practical. Highly recommended!"
-- The Discerning Reader.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning: An Approach to Distinctively Christian Education

Douglas Wilson
Crossway Books

"Public education in America has run into hard times. Even many within the system admit that it is failing. While many factors contribute, Douglas Wilson lays much blame on the idea that education can take place in a moral vacuum. It is not possible for education to be nonreligious, deliberately excluding the basic questions about life. All education builds on the foundation of someone's worldview. Education deals with fundamental questions that require religious answers. Learning to read and write is simply the process of acquiring the tools to ask and answer such questions.

A second reason for the failure of public schools, Wilson feels, is modern teaching methods. He argues for a return to a classical education, firm discipline, and the requirement of hard work.

Often educational reforms create new problems that must be solved down the road. This book presents alternatives that have proved workable in experience.

"Good at diagnosing our educational afflictions, Douglas Wilson is still better at finding remedies. His Logos School provides a model, a practical design, for the restoration in the curriculum of Christian humanism--as contrasted with what Christopher Dawson called secular humanism." --Russell Kirk, D. Litt., editor, The University Bookman"

About the Author
Douglas Wilson, a popular speaker and author, helped to found Logos School in Moscow, Idaho. A fellow of Philosophy and Classical Languages at New St. Andrews College, he has an M.A. in philosophy and a B. A. in classical studies.

Yes, he's Reformed, too.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

An Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics,
Walter Kaiser and Moises Silva, Zondervan, 1994

From a review:
"Rightly Dividing The Word of Truth"
This work was the central text for a seminary course in Hermeneutics, and I had anticipated a somewhat dry, calculated, formula based approach to Biblical interpretation. What I received was a tool chest of invaluable exegetical tools with which to treat the Word of the Living God with the highest honor that it deserves. Drs. Kaiser and Silva are very obviously not only theologians and scholars of the first order, they are lovers of God's Word, and they pursue Him in their lives and work. Their instruction shines the very passion of knowing and following Jesus, while using every intellectual tool that He has given us. This book has changed my approach to preaching and teaching, and will maintain a spot in my library...I plan to read and refer to it till the covers fall off!"

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin


From John Murray's introduction:
"It would be a presumptuous undertaking to try to set forth all the reasons why Calvin holds that position of eminence in the history of Christian theology. By the grace and in the overruling providence of God there was the convergence of multiple factors, and all of these it would be impossible to trace in their various interrelations and interactions. One of these, however, calls for special mention. Calvin was an exegete and biblical theologian of the first rank. No other one factor comparably served to equip Calvin for the successful prosecution of his greatest work which in 1559 received its definitive edition.

The attitude to Scripture entertained by Calvin and the principles which guided him in its exposition are nowhere stated with more simplicity and fervor than in the Epistle Dedicatory to his first commentary, the commentary on the epistle to the Romans. "Such veneration," he says, "we ought indeed to entertain for the Word of God, that we ought not to pervert it in the least degree by varying expositions; for its majesty is diminished, I know not how much, especially when not expounded with great discretion and with great sobriety. And if it be deemed a great wickedness to contaminate any thing that is dedicated to God, he surely cannot be endured, who, with impure, or even with unprepared hands, will handle that very thing, which of all things is the most sacred on earth. It is therefore an audacity, closely allied to a sacrilege, rashly to turn Scripture in any way we please, and to indulge our fancies as in sport; which has been done by many in former times" (English Translation, Grand Rapids, 1947, p. 27)."

Read them for free online here:

http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/institutes/institutes.html


Well, you knew I wasn't going to leave him out.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Redemption Accomplished and Applied

John Murray
Grand Rapids: Eerdmans (1955)
236 pages, paper, $10.00

go here for a great review:

http://www.the-highway.com/br_redmptmurray.html

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

More than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation
William Hendrikson, Baker Books, 1940,1967,1997

"In the main, the purpose of the book of Revelation is to comfort the militant Church in its struggle against the forces of evil. It is full of help and comfort for persecuted and suffering Christians. To them is given the assurance that God sees their tears (7:17, 21:4); their prayers are influential in world affairs (8:3,4) and their death is precious in His sight. Their final victory is assured (15:2); their blood will be avenged (19:2); their Christ lives and reigns for ever and ever. He governs the world in the interest of His Church (5:7,8). He is coming again to take His people to Himself in 'the marriage supper of the Lamb' and to live with them for ever in a rejuvenated universe (21:22)."

If you are interested in a book on the Revelation that does not interpret the book from the daily newspaper or the latest middle eastern conflict, this one is for you.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"Are you not then the person, friend Erasmus, who just now asserted, that God is by nature just, and by nature most merciful? If this be true, does it not follow that He is immutably just and merciful? That, as His nature is not changed to all eternity, so neither His justice nor His mercy ? And what is said concerning His justice and His mercy, must be said also concerning His knowledge, His wisdom, His goodness, His will, and His other Attributes. If therefore these things are asserted religiously, piously, and wholesomely concerning God, as you say yourself, what has come to you, that, contrary to your own self, you now assert, that it is irreligious, curious, and vain, to say, that God foreknows of necessity? You openly declare that the immutable will of God is to be known, but you forbid the knowledge of His immutable prescience. Do you believe that He foreknows against His will, or that He wills in ignorance? If then, He foreknows, willing, His will is eternal and immovable, because His nature is so: and, if He wills, foreknowing, His knowledge is eternal and immovable, because His nature is so."

by Martin Luther in "The Bondage of the Will"

This is THE MASTERWORK OF THE REFORMATION, a must read. See it online in full here:

http://www.graciouscall.org/books/luther/bondage/toc.html

or in abridged easy to read form here:

http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm

Luther was relentless in his sensible approach. He was a person with many flaws, but He loved the scriptures, his wife, and the people of God.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"Here I Stand: A Life of Martin Luther"
Meridian published by Penguin Books, NY,NY; 1955, 1995

From a review:
"This book is filled with passages that made me stop, think and reflect, and then dog-ear the page for return visits. Bainton quotes Luther: "Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative. We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith." Later, "Music is to be praised as second only to the Word of God because by her all the emotions swayed...The Holy Spirit himself pays tribute to music when he records that the evil spirit of Saul was exorcised as David played upon his harp....This precious gift has been bestowed on men alone to remind them that they are created to praise and magnify the Lord." Through reading this book, I became much more aware of the tremendous influence that Luther had on shaping numerous aspects of modern Western society. Anyone with any interest in any form of Christianity should become acquainted with the ideas of Martin Luther, and reading this book would be a good start."

From the Book:
"Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason---I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other---my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. God help me, Amen."

-Martin Luther (At his first hearing.)"

We need to return to that "my conscience is captive to the word of God" kind of faith, don't we?

somebonus@yahoo.com

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"In the nineteenth century in particular, there were numerous attempts to establish a system of morals that did not need to assume the existence of God and his revelation. These experiments were all conducted by a small avant-garde made up of philosophers, novelists, and artists. What has changed is that now the whole of society has become avant-garde. It is the whole of society that is now engaged in this massive experiment to do what no other major civilization has done--to rebuild itself deliberately and self-consciously without religious foundations. And the bottom line of this endeavor is that truth in any absolute sense has gone. Truth like life is fractured. Like experience, it is disjointed. Like our perceptions of ourselves it is uncertain...It has no authority, no sense of rightness, because it can no longer find any anchorage in anything absolute. If it persuades, it does so because our experience has given it its absolute power--but tomorrow our experience may be different."

"No Place For Truth Or Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology?"
David F. Wells
Wm. B. Eerdmanns Publishing Co.,
Grand Rapids, MI
1993

"Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology?
Has something indeed happened to evangelical theology
and to evangelical churches?

According to David Wells, the evidence indicates that evangelical pastors have abandoned their traditional role as ministers of the Word to become therapists and “managers of the small enterprises we call churches.” Along with their parishioners, they have abandoned genuine Christianity and biblical truth in favor of the sort of inner-directed experiential religion that now pervades Western society."
Read more here:

http://www.discerningreader.com/noplacfortru.html

[SS (24.131.172.186)]

Cordell,
Have you ever read "The Pilgrim Church"?

Just picked it up at Convention.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Had a brief look at portions of it. Looks like one of the books put out by the Landmark Baptists, i.e. "Trail of Blood." This is the Baptist answer to "apostolic succession" proposed by RCs and Anglicans. The premise is that there were groups neither Roman or Protestant, that were the true Christians and that their descendants are Baptists.

One prominent Baptist said,"Real Christians have always been persecuted by the three P's:
Papists
Pagans
and Protestants"

The argument put forward in the "Trail of Blood" is not a very accurate historical account and is easily overturned by good scholarship. It makes the poor Baptists kin to heretics.

Another book of this sort, favored by Baptists is "The Reformers And Their Stepchildren" by Leonard Verduin. You can see it here:

http://gospelpedlar.com/stepchildren.html

Francis Nigel Lee responded with a much more scholarly and historically accurate book called,

"The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren"

You can read that one here:

http://www.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/

If I have made a mistake about the Pilgrim Church, however, I apologize, I only scanned it briefly.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Christ the Lord: the Reformation and Lordship Salvation
Michael Horton Ed.,Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI 1992

"It has become very common in evangelical churches in recent years to hear preachers attacking the doctrine of Lordship salvation . And that new phrase makes it sound as if the preacher who opposes it oppposes some novel theological position. The fact is however, that what is now being called Lordship salvation is simply historic Protestant theology! What is novel is this present-day opposition to that theology and the gospel."

This book will help you understand what the Gospel is and what it is not.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.186.144)]

Cordell, Have you read Kafka?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

"As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect..." (from "The Metamorphosis")

This is my favorite Kafka story.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

In honor of the arrival of Stephen Quinlan, here is another recommendation. Not for the fainthearted, it took Barth (pronounced Bart) over thirty years to write.

Church Dogmatics
by Karl Barth

This is a short bio:
http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Theology/barth.htm

And a short article by Stanley Hauerwas,Gilbert T. Rowe Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke University:

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0003/articles/barth.html

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I kept an appointment tonight. My work takes me on long drives through the beautiful Texas hill country quite often and tonight was no different. I had to go through Boerne to Kerrville then back down through Medina and Bandera to Pipe Creek. It has been raining hard throughout the area and it seems as if every frog in the world wants to cross the road. As the rain subsided, the full moon revealed the swollen roadside rivers and creeks. The beauty of Highway 16 is that it is almost never straight, and it holds all sorts of delights around every curve—an armadillo here, a javelina there, foxes, field mice, skunks, possums and raccoons. I made it in to the Kerrville Penney’s with fifteen minutes to spare to try on a new pair of jeans, decided against the purchase and carried on toward Bandera. More frogs. Eyes in the headlights in the grass all along the way. You learn to slow down for the critters, but I will not brake for frogs. There are too many of them. Like the Egyptian plague. Just north of Medina, I spotted a doe just getting ready to cross the road. Knowing almost instinctively that she was going to run, I braked hard and she got across. The fawn behind her did not. Even though I saw the doe stop and look back across the road it did not strike me until I heard the sickening kerthunk that there was a little one following her. I skidded to a stop and saw in the red glare of the tail lights in the rearview mirror the flailing little body right on the double yellow lines. After turning around and getting out, I prepared to have to do the little creature in--not wanting his suffering to be prolonged. I thought that I might be able to find a vet to put him down, but who knows where the nearest vet might be. He was still alive. Even though I did not want to put a human scent on him, I felt his legs. No bones broken, front or back. His spine seemed to be alright, but he did not run when I touched him. I looked for blood or swelling. Nothing. I decided to pick him up. Then I heard the eeriest noise I have heard in years—one we just don’t hear in the city—the mother doe was still in the nearby brush, though unseen, and she was barking and wailing at me to not hurt her baby. No broken ribs, no head wounds. Neck was good. Heart was pounding away. I gave him a brisk rub down. He was cold and wet. I held him closer to warm him up. The barking continued. I put him down and stood back. Still he just lay there. I stepped back further and waited. And waited. Finally, he stood. A little dazed and puzzled perhaps. I decided to come closer again. His tail went up and his ears cocked. Off he went toward the sound of the barks. I kept an appointment tonight.

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Mark 10:29

[rj (141.154.186.91)]

Beautiful, Cordell...simply beautiful.

Roberta

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Cordell,

In God's sovereign plan for the universe, He foreordained this event before time began. You're response probably saved this fawn's life (... i.e. from being hit by another car), and may have also saved another driver from a treacherous accident and even death.

In the spiritual realm, this is exactly how you have helped many of us on this board. If this is not living proof that you have a true pastor's heart, what is?

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

A divine encounter! You restored a child back to its mother.....what an interesting response from her. I guess its a gift God gives us when we become mothers.
I agree with nonotone, again, your pastors heart has been revealed.

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Thanks Cordell !

[JD Skeet (64.12.117.20)]

Curmudgeon:

Why did you bail on law school?

Thought your soul might come in handy, later?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Long story skeeter. Maybe later.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Handbook of Church Discipline, Jay Adams
This book is copyrighted 1986: Zondervan Publishing House

PeaceMakers summarized version of Chapter 10:
CROSS CONGREGATIONAL DISCIPLINE

What I wish to address in this chapter is the more difficult problem of how to carry on discipline among churches that are not related denominationally...

...Bob and Phil, members of two Bible-believing congregations of different persuasions, have broken fellowship over a business deal.

1. Phil (perhaps with the guidance of his own pastor) should gently read Matthew 18:15ff. to Bob's pastor and urge him and his church to follow the Scriptures in this matter. He should not simply go along with weakness on the part of Bob's church. Rather, in a kind but firm manner, he should insist that, since they call themselves a Bible-believing church, they are bound to do what the Bible requires. Often this sort of kind but strong pressure will prevail.

2. If that action proves to be fruitless, then (on the basis of Matthew 18) he should take someone with him (preferably his own pastor) to confront Bob's pastor. Frequently the matter will be settled at this level.

3. But suppose Bob's pastor refuses to hear them. Then, on the analogy of Matthew 18, he should "tell it to the church." That would probably mean having Phil's elders request a meeting with the elders of Bob's church. If this meeting occurs, Phil's elders may be able to persuade Bob's that this is the biblical thing to do and may be able to help them in conducting a fair trial. The issue in points 2 and 3, please note, is not Phil's losses, but the question of whether Bob's church will follow Matthew 18. The two issues should not be confused.

4. Let us suppose, as too often is true, that Bob's elders refuse to meet or, after meeting, refuse to carry the case further. Then, short of Phil's willingness at this point to drop the whole matter, his church would seem to have but one recourse: again, on the analogy of Matthew 18, Phil's church should declare Bob's church to be "as heathen and publicans." That is to say, they should declare them to be "no church" since they will not draw a line between the world and the church by exercising discipline...

This decision should never be taken unless the most careful and kind attempts have been made to try to effect proper discipline in the other church. But there must come a point at which the matter is set to rest. God will have no loose ends dangling in His church....

...When another congregation refuses to follow the discipline that Christ provided for your member and you do nothing about it, it is not only that other congregation that is lax. If you fail to make every effort to get that congregation to satisfy Christ's demands, you too are guilty, and the care of your own member is seriously lacking.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

The Meaning and Mode of Baptism
Jay Adams
by P & R Publishing

Is there an argument from scripture that <FONT FACE="SYMBOL">baptizo</FONT> can mean anything other than immerse. What Old Testament examples uphold pouring or sprinkling?

AND

A great article by Ken Gentry:

http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt554.htm

[Sam Spade (24.131.172.186)]

That Jay Adams post is certainly food for thought.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

TV Church
By W. Robert Godfrey

An excerpt:
"Many Christians today seem to assume that all God requires is a relationship to the universal church that occurs automatically for the believer. In other words, it is often said that "the church is people." Hence, belonging to the church means belonging to Christ, not to an institution. That, however, is not true. The Bible is clear that Christians are also required to be part of the institutional church's life, particularly the life of the local church, which God himself has brought into being and structured by his Word."

Do a Google search the link will mess with the formatting here.

Modern Reformation magazine is well worth subscribing to:

Last month's issue theme:
A Good Church is Hard to Find

Google: Modern Reformation Magazine

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

The "Renewing Your Mind" Radio Broadcast of R.C. Sproul. Check out the site, look for the past radio broadcasts on the bar at the right of the page. The current broadcasts which apparently began on June 21st deal with Interpreting the Bible, the June 30th broadcast will help you understand some of the mistakes that preachers like Carl Stevens make when they preach. WELL WORTH HEARING AND BETTER THAN GRACE HOUR. Here's the link:

http://www.ligonier.org/radio/archive.php

New series coming:
Foundations: An Overview of Systematic Theology
Airing July 3-4, 2004

It is not enough to know what God says about a specific topic in His Word. Believers need to know how the truths of God's Word interconnect.

This is very helpful stuff. Even for those of you who don't consider yourselves particularly "theological." Sproul's gift is that he makes difficult subjects understandable.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Wine in the Bible and in the Church
G. I. Williamson

Read on line:

http://www.antithesis.com/features/wine.html

"It will be shown that the doctrine of total abstinence did not arise from an exegesis of Scripture. To the contrary, the Bible teaches moderation (temperance in the true sense), and not total abstinence. The real source of this doctrine in the Church was the pressure of social reform movements in the world. It will be demonstrated that the Church in this lamentable deflection from Scripture was really following the world. And it will further be shown that when this false principle of mandatory abstinence was laid upon the consciences of God's people, it was far from being a wholesome (or even harmless) thing. Rather did it undermine the central verities of the gospel."


Williamson is also the author of studies in the Westminster Confession and Shorter Catechism.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

The Church
Edmund P. Clowney
Contours of Christian Theology Series
IVP, Downers Grove, IL 1995

"To be sure, if the church rather than Christ becomes the center of our devotion, spiritual decay has begun. A doctrine of the church that does not ceter on Christ is self defeating and false. But Jesus said to the disciples who confessed him, 'I will build my church.' To ignore his purpose is to deny his lordship. The good news of Christ's coming includes the good news fo what he came to do: to join us to himself and to one another as his body, the new people of God."

Great book. I highly recommend it.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Okay, this is for listening, too. I have subscribed to Mars Hill Audio for years and it is very, very thought provoking. Ken Myers has that "NPR" sort of "all things considered" voice that just makes you want to hear what he is saying. (He is in fact former NPR person.)

"MARS HILL AUDIO exists to assist Christians who desire to move from thoughtless consumption of modern culture to a vantage point of thoughtful engagement. We believe that fulfilling the commands to love God and neighbor requires that we pay careful attention to the neighborhood: that is, every sphere of human life where God is either glorified or despised, where neighbors are either edified or undermined.

The MARS HILL AUDIO Journal is an "audio magazine" featuring ninety minutes of conversation on each bimonthly cassette or CD edition. Guests on the upcoming issue (Volume 68, May/June 2004) include: Robert Gagnon, on Biblical teaching about homosexuality and how it is being ignored; Murray Milner, Jr, on American teenagers, schools, and the culture of consumption; and Richard Stivers, on the role of technologies and "technique" in creating a sense of loneliness."

go here:

http://www.marshillaudio.org/

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

A New Systematic Theology of The Christian Faith
(in one volume)
Dr. Robert L. Reymond
Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville 1998

In my view, one of the best since Berkhof. If you are trying to find a decent replacement for your ABD tapes or your seven volume Chafer set, this is it. Clear and good reading. Understandable. Reymond is former Dean of Faculty and current Professor of Systematic Theology at Knox Theological Seminary in Fort Lauderdale, FL (D. James Kennedy's ministry began this school).

On the sufficiency of scripture as described by the Westminster divines Reymond writes:
"This article, which pits the Reformers doctrine of Sola Scriptura off over against both Rome's claims for its tradition and Anabaptist mysticism, affirms the sufficiency of Holy Scripture, properly understood, to inform humankind regarding "the whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life." Assuming its earlier affirmation that special revelation has ceased, this article then declares that "nothing at any time is to be added [to the Holy Scriptures], whether by [alleged] new revelations fo the Spirit, or traditions of men." In short, as Larger Catechism Question 3, states: "The holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the Word of God, the only rule of faith and obedience."

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

I will now be posting on this site as myself. I hope you will still consider the reading and listening recommended here.

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

interesting list...

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">"Any stigma," said a witty tongue, "will do to beat a dogma"; and the flails of ridicule have been brandished with such energy of late on the threshing floor of controversy that the true seed of the Word has become well-nigh lost amid the whirling chaff.

Christ, in His Divine innocence, said to the woman of Samaria, "Ye worship ye know not what"-- being apparently under the impression that it might be desirable, on the the whole, to know what one was worshipping. He thus showed Himself sadly out of touch with the twentieth century mind, for the cry today is: "Away with the tedious complexities of dogma--let us have the simple spirit of worship; just worship, no matter of what!" The only drawback to this demand for a generalized and undirected worship is the practical difficulty of arousing any sort of enthusiasm for the worship of nothing in particular.</FONT>

From "Creed or Chaos?", Dorothy L. Sayers, 1949, Sophia Institute Press, Manchester, NH 03108

From the back cover: It doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you're sincere...Balderdash! (Give Dorothy Sayers five minutes and she'll show you why.)

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Finally, Roberta, look a WOMAN author recommended!!! (And one you should read, too.)</FONT>

Dorothy L. Sayers was the author of the Lord Peter Whimsey mysteries.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

"The last time we were arrested, the policeman said it was for lewd behavior. Of course it wasn't. At least not really. Policemen say some funny things. Especially in San Francisco.

While we were being driven away, we looked out the window and saw a man waggling a sign at us. It said, "No Hate Here," followed by four exclamation points. With his other hand he waggled his longest and central finger. We chuckled."

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">From the latest edition of Credenda Agenda, "Sodom as Yawnsville: Why Queer Really Isn't"</FONT>

Read it online for free here:
Sodom as Yawnsville (http://www.credenda.org/)

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Here's a sermon you can listen to by my pastor:

Gospel Saturated Leadership (http://www.redeemersa.org/sermons/sermon050904.mp3)

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

What does "whosoever believeth in Him" mean? This sermon by James White, a Baptist pastor in Phoenix, answers the attack on God's sovereignty in salvation offered by many.

James White on John 3:16-17 (http://www.prbc.org/Sermons/jwSS080501.ram)

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God
J.I. Packer, IVP, Downers Grove IL, 1961

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">“There is a second way in which you acknowledge that God is sovereign in salvation. You pray for the conversion of others. In what terms, now, do you intercede for them? Do you limit yourself to asking that God will bring them to a point where they can save themselves, independently of Him? I do not think you do. I think that what you do is to pray in categorical terms that God will, quite simply and decisively, save them: that He will open the eyes of their understanding, soften their hard hearts, renew their natures, and move their wills to receive the Saviour. You ask God to work in them everything necessary for their salvation. You would not dream of making it a point in your prayer that you are not asking God actually to bring them to faith, because you recognize that that is something He cannot do. Nothing of the sort! When you pray for unconverted people, you do so on the assumption that it is in God’s power to bring them to faith. You entreat Him to do that very thing, and your confidence in asking rests upon the certainty that He is able to do what you ask. And so indeed He is: this conviction, which animates your intercessions, is God’s own truth, written on your heart by the Holy Spirit.”</FONT>

somebonus@yahoo.com

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

There is a difference between saving yourself and allowing God to save you. It is accepting a free gift, but it can be refused.

"...and move their wills to receive the Saviour"
This acknowledges that free will is involved.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

A will that is being moved. It acknowledges a will that must be moved. That is the miracle of the act of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, it does not occur through "decision." A decision always FOLLOWS. I am not perturbed when people tell me they have 'decided' to follow Jesus. When He calls that's what you do. You should buy the book, Nic, it really is very worthwhile reading. And Packer is so much more warm in his style than I am in mine.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">People love to argue about the 'Five Points of Calvinism.' Here they are in all their glory (click on the link) :</FONT>

The Five Points of Calvinism (http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html)

<FONT COLOR="119911">Don't forget that these points first arose in controversy against the remonstrance of the Arminians who posed these five points first:</FONT>

The Five Points of Arminianism were, broadly speaking, as follows: -

(1) Free Will or Human Ability. This taught that man, although affected by the fall, was not totally incapable of choosing spiritual good, and was able to exercise faith in God to receive the Gospel and thus bring himself into possession of salvation. Faith is man's "contribution" in salvation.

(2) Conditional Election. This taught that God laid His hand upon those individuals whom He KNEW - or "Foresaw" would respond to the Gospel. God "elected" those that He saw would "want" to be saved of their own free will and in their natural fallen state - which was, of course, according to the first point of Arminianism - not completely fallen.

(3) Universal Redemption or General Atonement. This taught that Christ died to "save all men"; but, only in a potential fashion. Christ's death enabled God to pardon sinners, but only on condition that they believed.

(4) The Rejection of the Holy Spirit. This taught that the Holy Spirit, as He began to work in a life, bringing that person to Christ, could be resisted and His purposes frustrated. He could not impart life unless the sinner was willing to have this life imparted.

(5) Falling from Grace. This taught that man could fall from the position of his salvation. It is, of course, the logical and natural outcome of the system. If man must take the initiative in his salvation, he must retain the same.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Being an Arminian is more than just believing you can lose your salvation. How Arminian is American evangelicalism? American Baptistic denominations love to teach "eternal security", but how reasonable is that with the other points in view?</FONT>

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">A little known poem by Rudyard Kipling:</FONT>

"A Servant When He Reigneth"

Three things make earth unquiet
And four she cannot brook
The godly Agur counted them
And put them in a book --
Those Four Tremendous Curses
With which mankind is cursed;
But a Servant when He Reigneth
Old Agur entered first.
An Handmaid that is Mistress
We need not call upon.
A Fool when he is full of Meat
Will fall asleep anon.
An Odious Woman Married
May bear a babe and mend;
But a Servant when He Reigneth
Is Confusion to the end.

His feet are swift to tumult,
His hands are slow to toil,
His ears are deaf to reason,
His lips are loud in broil.
He knows no use for power
Except to show his might.
He gives no heed to judgment
Unless it prove him right.

Because he served a master
Before his Kingship came,
And hid in all disaster
Behind his master's name,
So, when his Folly opens
The unnecessary hells,
A Servant when He Reigneth
Throws the blame on some one else.

His vows are lightly spoken,
His faith is hard to bind,
His trust is easy boken,
He fears his fellow-kind.
The nearest mob will move him
To break the pledge he gave --
Oh, a Servant when he Reigneth
Is more than ever slave!

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Proverbs 30:18 There be three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not: 19 The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid. 20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness. 21 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: 22 For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat; 23 For an odious woman when she is married; and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.</FONT>

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

Whoa! Powerful Prose.

Is not our story, the rise and fall of Carl H. Stevens, the ageless moral tale?

Kings and kingdoms could be substituted for Pastor and ministries.

But one cannot call this tale, Christianity, it is not....

[JustSharing (172.136.241.82)]

Tears flowing, lost happiness,

When we are in times of sorrow;

But we need not have great distress,

For we have a greater Tomorrow.

No tears, no suffering and no pain,

On That day we see our King reign;

That is the Day of our great reward;

For on That day we will see our Lord!

nancycurra copyright march 2004

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Ecclesiates 10:5 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from the ruler: 6 Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place. 7<U>I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth.</U></FONT>

[JustOneMore (172.136.241.82)]

O little bird, you with clipped wings,

Listen closely, hear His heart sing.

Upon the Lord little one wait,

See little bird, He opened the gate.

Upon wings as eagles you shall mount,

Drinking living water from His fount.

As eagles reach up to the sun,

God will lift you, you need not run.

O little bird your wings He’ll mend;

Rest now upon Him as you ascend,

Above the mountains, into the sky;

Sing now little one, you can fly!

For you who fear and upon Him wait

He does strengthen, He’s never too late.

O little bird you are now set free,

Because of His loving kindness and sweet mercy.


nc copyright march 2004

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="119911">Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">John 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded...12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 <U>If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.</U></FONT>

<FONT SIZE="+1">Here endeth the lesson.</FONT>

[Bob Brinton (151.203.155.215)]

'Here endeth the lesson' ; Does this mean you're leaving us, Jim? Or maybe that you're done with this thread?

Over the course of late spring/early summer there was a family of goslings at Simon's Rock in Great Barrington, where my daughter Jen is going to school and working during the summer. We've watched them grow up, and they seem to be gone now. When the goslings reached the same size as the adults, I noticed that you still could tell who the adults were. While all the goslings were grubbing in the soil, the two adults would have their necks craned, checking who and what went by and keeping watch. I thought of you, Jim. I don't agree with all of your doctrinal thinking; but I think you've been protecting us in ways we may not entirely comprehend. You haven't been alone in this; but I hope you're not leaving. Love, Bob

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

No, Bob, not yet. Start with the poem, then read the verses.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">LORD, WITH GLOWING HEART I’D PRAISE THEE

Lord, with glowing heart I’d praise Thee
For the bliss Thy love bestows,
For the pard’ning grace that saves me,
And the peace that from it flows:
Help, O God, my weak endeavor;
This dull soul to rapture raise;
Thou must light the flame, or never
Can my love be warmed to praise.

Praise, my soul, the God that sought thee,
Wretched wand’rer, far astray;
Found thee lost, and kindly brought thee
From the paths of death away:
Praise with love’s devoutest feeling,
Him who saw thy guiltborn fear,
And, the light of hope revealing,
Bade the blood-stained cross appear.

Praise thy Saviour God that drew thee
To that cross, new life to give,
Held a blood-sealed pardon to thee,
Bade thee look to Him and live:
Praise the grace whose threats alarmed thee,
Roused thee from thy fatal ease,
Praise the grace whose promise warmed thee,
Praise the grace that whispered peace.

Lord, this bosom’s ardent feeling
Vainly would my lips express:
Low before Thy footstool kneeling,
Deign thy suppliant’s pray’r to bless:
Let Thy love, my soul’s chief treasure,
Love’s pure flame within me raise;
And, since words can never measure,
Let my life show forth Thy praise. Amen.</FONT>

—Francis Scott Key (1779-1843)

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. 2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. 3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour...</FONT>

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Question 158: By whom is the Word of God to be preached?</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Answer: The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are <U>sufficiently gifted</U>, and also duly approved and called to that office.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="119911">Question 159: How is the Word of God to be preached by those that are called thereunto?</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="119911">Answer: They that are called to labor in the ministry of the Word, are to preach sound doctrine, <U>diligently</U>, in season and out of season; <U>plainly</U>, not in the enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit, and of power; <U>faithfully</U>, making known the whole counsel of God; <U>wisely</U>, applying themselves to the necessities and capacities of the hearers; <U>zealously</U>, with fervent love to God and the souls of his people; <U>sincerely</U>, aiming at his glory, and their conversion, edification, and salvation.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Question 160: What is required of those that hear the Word preached?</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Answer: It is required of those that hear the Word preached, that they <U>attend</U> upon it with diligence, preparation, and prayer; <U>examine</U>: What they hear by the Scriptures; <U>receive</U> the truth with faith, love, meekness, and readiness of mind, as the Word of God; <U>meditate</U>, and confer of it; <U>hide</U> it in their hearts, and <U>bring forth the fruit of it in their lives.</U></FONT>

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, <U>as it is written</U>, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. 4 For whatsoever things were <U>written</U> aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the <U>scriptures</U> might have hope.

5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: 6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the <U>promises</U> made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; <U>as it is written</U>, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And <U>again</U> he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And <U>again</U>, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And <U>again, Esaias saith</U>, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.</FONT>

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and <U>learn of me</U>; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[Anonymous (67.243.133.206)]

Jim,

There's a cool thread about rock n'roll under "Five men died, four more in Ohio."
Come share your "pearls" of classic rock wisdom!

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

"Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth and followed Thee."

"<U>And Can It Be</U>" by Charles Wesley


<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"And now where's all your Arminianism?"
Attributed to George Whitefield upon hearing the above stanza of the hymn by Wesley.</FONT>

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

All God’s Children and Blue Suede Shoes:
Christians &amp; Popular Culture
Ken Myers, Published by Crossway Books

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">A magnificent and timely book. Fresh, witty, informative, trenchant, and eminently sane, Ken Myers's book is a must for thoughtful evangelicals....I only hope there are enough of them left to read it."
Os Guinness

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Where did popular culture come from ?
Why is it the way it is?
How does it influence Americans in general and Christians in particular?
Ken Myers provides fascinating answers to these questions. He sees pop culture as a culture of diversion, preventing people from asking questions about their origin and destiny and about the meaning of life. Two aspects stand out -- a quest for novelty and a desire for instant gratification.</FONT>

In All God's Children and Blue Suede Shoes Ken Myers looks at the entire phenonmenon of popular culture -- its roots, assumptions, practices and effects. The result is a provocative book that shows how our thought, communication, and living have all been affected by popular culture's omnipresence. It should make us take a hard look at what we've accepted as harmless entertainment.</FONT>

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif bump

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Religion In Lee's Army
(Three Chapters from "Christ in the Camp"
By Rev. J. Wm. Jones, D.D.
Publisher: Larry Harrison, Christian Book Gallery, 9066 Knickerbocker, St.John, Indiana 46373}

"No army, with whose history I am acquainted at least, was ever blessed with so large a proportion of high officers who were earnest Christian men, as the Army of Northern Virginia.

We had such specimens of the Christian soldier as R.E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, D.H. Hill, T.R.Cobb, A.H. Colquitt, Kirby Smith, J.E.B. Stuart, W.N. Pendleton...Nor was the example of these noble men merely negative--many of them were active workers for the Master, and did not hesitate, upon all proper occasions, to "stand up for Jesus.""

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Ah yes, history, the winner tells the tale.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, <U>give attendance to reading</U>, to exhortation, to doctrine.</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

In hope that some ignorance will be dispelled, here is R.L. Dabney, former chaplain to Stonewall Jackson and founder of Austin Presbyterian Seminary, in his own words. In my view, they take on prophetic meaning in our day.


A Word to the North
R.L. Dabney

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">When I claim that the South did thus much for the Africans, I am far from boasting. We ought to have done much more. Instead of pointing to it with self-laudation, it becomes us, with profound humility towards God, to confess our shortcomings towards our servants. He has been pleased, in His sovereign and fearful dispensation, to lay upon us a grievous affliction, and we know He is too just to do this except for our sins. While I am as certain as the sure word of Scripture can make me concerning any principle of social duty, that there was nothing sinful in the relation of master and slave itself, I can easily believe that our failure to fulfill some of the duties of that righteous relation is among the sins for which God's hand now makes us smart. And it does not become those who are under His discipline to boast of their good works. No, truly we have sinned. My argument is that you must do more for the negro than we sinners of the South have done.

I have written wittingly the words; you must do it for them. The South cannot. Your people have effectually disabled us. They have done so by taking away our wealth. The South is almost utterly impoverished, and is able to do little more than to keep destitution from her own doors. But a more conclusive reason is the alienation which the armed and clerical missionaries of the North have inculcated in the breasts of these people, lately so affectionate and contented. The negroes have been diligently taught that their masters were their enemies and oppressors, that their bondage was wicked and destructive of their well-being, and especially that the religious teachings of all Southern ministers were "doctrines of devils," because they would not shout the shibboleth of abolition. The consequence is that the black race will no longer listen to the Southern people, or be guided by them. Take as evidence my own instance, which I cite precisely for the reason that it is not in the least peculiar, but the common experience. Before the advent of your armies, plantation meetings were held weekly in the different quarters of the congregation, on Saturdays, in working time, cheerfully surrendered by the masters for that purpose, which brought religious instruction within two or three miles of every house. They are now all at an end. Six years ago my congregation pulled down the substantial house, built by their fathers only thirty years before, with walls as solid as living rocks, which was entirely adequate to hold the whites, and replaced it by a larger. One prominent reason was that it was not large enough to hold the servants also. They constructed in the new house three hundred commodious sittings exclusively for the blacks. Last Sabbath, under a bright and cheerful sun, those sittings were occupied during public worship by precisely three persons; and at the afternoon service, held in a chapel-of-ease, primarily for the blacks, there was not one present. Thus the North has prevented the South from doing its former work for the good of the African.
But while I assert this, I would bear my emphatic testimony against the falsehood and injustice of the charge that the Southern people wish to cast off and ruin the negro, in a spirit of pique and revenge for his emancipation. That they regard this measure as neither just nor wise, is perfectly true. But they have promised to acquiesce in it as a condition of peace; a promise they intend faithfully to keep. They universally regard slavery as finally at an end. There is nothing more manifest than that the North, amid the flame and heat of all its animosities, knows and feels that we will not be the one to break this new covenant, hard as its conditions are. That the freedom of the late slaves, and the authority which has dictated it, are secured from attack by us. And I boldly testify that we have not voluntarily withdrawn our humane interest from the blacks. We earnestly desire their prosperity. We wish to give them employment and opportunity, and to cooperate in their maintenance as far as possible. We do not cast off the negroes, but it is the negroes who cast us off. The people of the South are this day extending to tens of thousands of black families a generous sympathy in the midst of their own heavy losses and deep poverty, which we challenge the Christian world to surpass in its splendid philanthropy. We still refuse to cast off those families, although, by reason of the incumbrance of old persons, sick, and little children, their present labor is worse than worthless to us. We know we shall receive no future recompense in the labor of the children. We are thus rearing gratis for other men as independent of us in future as we are of them. And this is done (often time in spite of a present requital of insolence, misconception, ingratitude and a petty warfare of thefts and injuries) by Southern gentlemen and ladies, . . . in a multitude of cases, in every neighborhood of every county, so that the numbers of destitute freedmen under which the able hands of your Bureau now faint, are not a tithe of those who are still maintained by the impoverished people of the South. And this is done simply because humanity makes us unwilling to thrust out those for whose happiness we have so long been accustomed to care into the hardships of their new and untried future. And unless you can expect this delicate sentiment to exhibit a permanence which would be almost miraculous under the "wear and tear" of our future poverty, I forewarn you that you must stand prepared for a tenfold increase of your present responsibilities, when these families are committed to you. That tenfold burden you must learn to bear successfully.</FONT>

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

And your point being what with this last post?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

If you have been following the discussion on the other thread: <FONT COLOR="0000ff">(Does the spirit of this song offend you: I have read His fiery gospel writ in rows of burnished steel! "As ye deal with my contemners, so with you My grace shall deal! Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel," Since God is marching on)</FONT>, you will know why I have posted it. And I began the post with the stated purpose--to dispell ignorance.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Dabney wrote the admonition in 1866.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Excuse me.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

ye are without excuse

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Flatterer...*xoxoxo*

[Bob Brinton (151.203.152.166)]

Jim, There's a biography on Jesse James that someone from Minnesota wrote a few years back. You might find it worth checking out because of what it shows about that time period in Missouri particularly, and the kind of pressures that existed between different factions leading up to and after the war.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views
by George Eldon Ladd (ed.)

Christ is coming again.

Since the first century, Christians have agreed that Christ will return. But since that time there have also been many disagreements. How will Christ return? When will he return? What sort of kingdom will he establish? What is the meaning of the millennium? These questions persist today.

Four major views on the millennium have had both a long history and a host of Christian adherents. In this book Robert G. Clouse brings together proponents of each view: George Eldon Ladd on historic premillenniallism, Herman A. Hoyt on dispensational premillennialism, Loraine Boettner on post-millennialism and Anthony A. Hoekema on amillennialism.

After each view is presented, proponents of the three competing views respond from their own perspectives. Here you'll encounter a lively and productive debate among respected Christian scholars that will help you gain clearer and deeper understanding of the different ways the church approaches the meaning of the millennium.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

lets take JF's advice on his july 19 post...
let us give attendance to reading (Gods word),to exhortation to doctrine(godly teaching)
1 Tim.4:13

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

From Exodus 34. "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, <U>but who will by no means clear the guilty</U>, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Jim,
the verse you quoted from Ex 34......generational sin.
Can you expound upon that? If God won't clear the guilty and although he forgives us, he passes our sins on to the next generation, is there any way at all of breaking that pattern? Are our children doomed to carry more and more sin? Are you saying that they can be forgiven but they will all be passed on? In other words, my kids have not only my sins but their father's and all those that have gone on before?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

For Christians, Christ has become the curse and the just for the unjust. For unbelievers, in Adam all die. That's the concise answer, more later.

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

It says to the third and fourth generation, so apparently it is not forever. I think it is a verse about experiencing the consequences of sin even though it is forgiven. For example, if you murder someone, God can forgive you but you still go to jail.
What Jesus did on the cross completely clears the guilty as far as God's justice goes.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

.

[Anonymous (24.88.32.43)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Nic,
What Jesus did on the cross does not clear the guilty--It makes HIM the guilty for his own people--He shall be called Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins. Think of the curse upon Canaan, and then read the book of Joshua and you will see God's lasting judgment on generations. It was not only for the sin of the fathers, but the fathers taught the sons! Remember how Ham treated Noah? He taught his son and his son taught his son and on and on. And when judgment fell on the Canaanites they were putting their children in the fire for their idols! Read the book of Jonah and then later at the judgment of Nineveh. God's memory is long. And the purpose of it all?

See this in Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He <U>prepared</U> beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

The God of the Bible is not conformable to our image--and there is danger in Him! The 'fear' of the Lord is not just reverence--it is also real fear--as in "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

Jim,
I guess I am not getting what you are trying to say. You say, "What Jesus did on the cross does not clear the guilty--It makes HIM the guilty for his own people--He shall be called Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins." To me that is basically the same thing. He became guilty for us, He took our guilt, so as the guilty we are cleared.
Don't you think that even if people's ancestors sinned, they are not held guilty if they themselves repent? That is why God sent Jonah to Ninevah in the first place, to get them to repent.
In Deuteronomy 5:9,10 God says He visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children of those that HATE Him, so He doesn't just pass judgement down indiscriminately from generation to generation. And He says He shows mercy to those who love Him.
And Deuteronomy 24:16 says, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I guess what I am trying to avoid, Nic, in my explanation--which might sound nitpicky--is universalism. I am also attempting to avoid the idea that we don't inherit Adam's curse--we do. We are not sinners by 'following the world' we sin because we are born that way--and we are also taught by our forbears. This is the case with Canaan, as I mentioned above--in some places God does not execute punishment because their sin has not reached its worst point--as in the Romans passage. Contrast the verses you quote with Deuteronomy 6:6

"These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 "You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9 "You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. 10 "Then it shall come about when the LORD your God brings you into the land which He swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you, great and splendid cities which you did not build, 11 and houses full of all good things which you did not fill, and hewn cisterns which you did not dig, vineyards and olive trees which you did not plant, and you eat and are satisfied, 12 then watch yourself, that you do not forget the LORD who brought you from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Whose land is being promised to Israel? With all these benefits already in place?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Life and Death of Homo Pervertens
Douglas Wilson in Credenda Agenda

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"Too many Christians want a society of decent Leave It to Beaver family values without that society acknowledging the restoration of humanity in Christ. In short, they want something that cannot be. Nature abhors a vacuum. Despite the best of intentions, those Christian activists who want to chase homosexual marriage out of the public square without also acknowledging the lordship of Jesus Christ in that square are condemned to hopeless defeat after hopeless defeat. Further, those who want the ultimate lordship of Jesus Christ proclaimed in the public square without that same lordship being acknowledged first in Christian families and Christian churches are asking the world to lead the church to Christ, which is backwards.
Many Christian lobbyists for public purity have taken the stand that we need to keep our public house empty, swept and garnished (Matt. 12:43-45), and they want to follow it up with a constitutional amendment that will forever outlaw seven demons coming back worse than the first. This stand, obstinately persisted in, is worse than the objectives of the sodomite activists. We can explain why non-Christians do not want Christ to rule over us. But why would Christians fight for that?
In the face of such judgments, our only appropriate response is repentance. But even this needs to be explained further, because in the grip of American individualism, we have come to believe that repentance is something that takes place in the hidden recesses of our hearts. And to be sure, it begins there. But if it begins and ends there, it is not repentance at all but rather a comforting emotional idol. Consequently, we must say that the only appropriate response is public repentance. But what does public repentance look like exactly? And how can we publicly repent when we are on the verge of any such public repentance being declared to be a hate crime by the highest courts of our land? And the answer, of course, is that if the civil authority outlaws public repentance, then so much the worse for the civil authority. But if we are pressed to the point of civil disobedience (and we will be), the repentance for which we will risk everything must go to the root. The axe is to be laid at the root of the tree, not thrown up into the branches."</FONT>

Read the whole article here:


Life and Death of Homo Pervertens--Credenda Agenda (http://www.credenda.org/issues/16-2thema.php)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The First Blast of the Trumpet
Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women
1558
John Knox

Now listen carefully dearies, I do NOT agree with John Knox on every single point he makes AND he lived during a time when a bloody Queen was murdering evangelicals--however he does in this piece answer some of the "Deborah, Huldah" objections rather well, if you can make it that far without wrapping duct tape around your politically correct head to keep it from exploding.

Here is the link for the bravehearts:

John Knox, First Blast of the Trumpet (http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/FirBlast.htm)

[A WOMAN (205.188.117.20)]

Sure, John Knox speaks of how women are filled with greed and easily swayed, and says in a nutshell that they can't control their emotions and act with reason. BUT...who have started all the major world wars? Under the rule of men, countries have raged against each other and killed millions. Men were in charge when we had the Holocaust. Hitler was a great MALE leader, also Stalin and Mussolini. Was it women or men ruling nations that gave us the attack on Pearl Harbor and then the atomic bomb on Japan? Are we in Iraq now, with our men dying every day, because women were in charge?
Most violent crimes are committed by men. Most sexual crimes, child abuse, domestic abuse, etc.
So to say that woman caused the fall and are therefore INFERIOR, as John Knox said, is a little extreme. Men have just as much of a fallen nature and can cause chaos when they rule too, as we have seen.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Dear WOMAN,
I hear you roaring. I said I don't agree with all Knox has to say. Knox was a 16th century Scot, who served as a galley slave as a result of persecution. He saw death and martyrdom from the beginning of his conversion to Christ. He fled to Geneva and studied there. John Knox is KNOWN for being extreme in almost everything he ever did! In his lifetime thousands of Christians were slaughtered by Roman Catholic European Queens. It was because of them that he wrote this "First Blast."

I agree, in ADAM all die.

I put this here for historical (not hysterical) reference, and because Knox does answer some objections that are still raised concerning women in ministry.

Did you have to use the duct tape?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Wasn't there some other more reasonable person you could have posted from, to answer the objections about women? John Knox was crazy! Could have used some duct tape on him

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

John Knox was far from crazy. Let's try not to impose 21st century mentality on him. He was in spite of his many glaring faults, used greatly by God to bring real revival to Scotland in a bleak time. It is always good to look at history to see how God uses flawed sinners to do his work.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Her marriage rocked the world at the time. She had escaped from a convent after reading certain "forbidden literature" about Christian Liberty. She was taken out under cover at night with 11 others in barrels that had once contained salted fish. The man who helped them risked his life to get them out--to take them to Wittenberg where they were welcomed by a renegade Augustinian monk who himself had a sentence of death on his head should he ever leave the protection of his province. She watched her fellow travellers return to their homes or be taken as wives to members of the congregation. Finally, only she remained single, resisting the advances of all except the monk himself. Who is she? Katarina Von Bora, born into a noble family fallen on hard times and sent to a convent before she had turned six years old. After her mother's death, her father remarried and finances became difficult. She married Martin Luther at age 26. This is her story:</FONT>

Katharine Luther: Kitty, My Rib
By E. Jane Mall
Concordia Publishing House
St.Louis
1959, 1984

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">I am sure that Herbert Lockyer's book will not be popular with many, even amongst evangelicals because of the current trends and crises in sexual identity. But here is something from the introduction anyway:</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"As morals become more lax, and society degenerates, God-fearing wives and mothers are more than ever vital factors in the spiritual elevation of the nation. Two courses confront every woman today. The one consists of pleasure-chasing, sin-loving, divorce-exalting, and sex perversion all springing from a rejection of Christ; the other course is the noblest and most beneficial for our homes, nation and church, namely that of a God-inspired devotion which centers in the home, husband and children, and in the Scriptures. Moral laxity among girls today, and the ever increasing divorce rate with its progressive polygamy, constitute a call to continuous intercession that God will raise womanhood to the noble heights He intended for the daughters of Eve."</FONT>

This was written in the late 1950s. How prophetic.

All the Women of the Bible
Herbert Lockyer
Zondervan Books
Grand Rapids

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"American women today are indeed gullible. They have been captivated by the lies promulgated by the modern world and have succumbed in many ways to the humanistic mindset. Who are the deceivers? They are lovers of themselves, lovers of money, lovers of pleasure. The modern woman has been deceived, like Eve, and led away by her own lusts from her God-given domain and her God-ordained responsibilities. Loaded down with sin--discontent, envy--she is promised freedom and happiness if she will just forsake her domain--the home--and neglect her responsibilities--husband and children.

What are some of the lies she has been told? Fruitfulness is bad; children wreck the budget and the figure. Marriage is a partnership; submission is for imbeciles. Being a homemaker is for airheads who can't make it in the business world. Women are not designed with a unique purpose, but should and can compete with men on any level. The most important is to have a healthy self-image and to have your deepest needs met. If they are not being met by your husband, find someone else. The old femininity is outdated. The new femininity dictates that women should look capable, confident, and, at all costs, young and sexy."</FONT>

The Fruit of Her Hands: Respect and the Christian Woman
Nancy Wilson
Canon Press
Moscow Idaho, 1997

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The Hand That Rocks The Cradle
Is The Hand That Rules The World
Blessings on the hand of women!
Angels guard its strength and grace,
In the palace, cottage, hovel,
Oh, no matter where the place;
Would that never storms assailed it,
Rainbows ever gently curled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

Infancy's the tender fountain,
Power may with beauty flow,
Mother's first to guide the streamlets,
From them souls unresting grow--
Grow on for the good or evil,
Sunshine streamed or evil hurled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

Woman, how divine your mission
Here upon our natal sod!
Keep, oh, keep the young heart open
Always to the breath of God!
All true trophies of the ages
Are from mother-love impearled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

Blessings on the hand of women!
Fathers, sons, and daughters cry,
And the sacred song is mingled
With the worship in the sky--
Mingles where no tempest darkens,
Rainbows evermore are hurled;
For the hand that rocks the cradle
Is the hand that rules the world.

William Ross Wallace

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Rudyard Kipling (One wonders whether there is tongue in cheek humor or seriousness here)

<FONT COLOR="119911">The Female of the Species

WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail,
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When Nag, the wayside cobra, hears the careless foot of man,
He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can,
But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail -
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws,
They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws -
'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale -
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say,
For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away;
But when hunter meets with husband, each confirms the others tale -
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man, a bear in most relations, worm and savage otherwise,
Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise;
Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
Mirth obscene diverts his anger; Doubt and Pity oft perplex
Him in dealing with an issue - to the scandal of the Sex!

But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same,
And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity - must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions - not in these her honor dwells -
She, the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else!

She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great
As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate;
And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim
Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

She is wedded to convictions - in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him, who denies!
He will meet no cool discussion, but the instant, white-hot wild
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

Unprovoked and awful charges - even so the she-bear fights;
Speech that drips, corrodes and poisons - even so the cobra bites;
Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw,
And the victim writhes with anguish - like the Jesuit with the squaw!

So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of abstract justice - which no woman understands.

And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
Must command but may not govern; shall enthrall but not enslave him.
And She knows, because She warns him and Her instincts never fail,
That the female of Her species is more deadly than the male!</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

2 Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">"The starting point for most of our marriage relationships, the modern recreational dating system, can be safely considered as bankrupt. Consider how our system works. A young man notices a girl who attracts him. He asks her out, and she agrees. They start going together, and one of two things happens. Either they like each other or they don't, and both possibilities bring problems in their train. If neither one likes the other, then they both have had a bad experience. If they both hit it off, then the eventual temptation to immorality is strong, especially if they happened to pair off young--fourteen, say.

'Glad you kids like each other! Now don't touch anything for eight more years!'

'Okay, Mom!'

And of course, if one is interested in staying together and the other isn't, the possibilities for emotional snarls and interesting complications are almost endless."</FONT>

Her Hand in Marriage: Biblical Courtship in the Modern World
Douglas Wilson
Canon Press
Moscow, Idaho 1997

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"One day he overheard four women speaking of their inner religious experience, and he realized he lacked something. Leaving the Church of England, he joined their fellowship. Still he lacked peace. Only after reading Luther's commentary on Galatians <U>(see above)</U> did he realize he could be justified by faith alone. His inner struggles were not over, but he found relief. Bunyan felt compelled to tell others of faith in Christ. He became a field preacher. So effective were his words, people would arrive at dawn to hear him preach at noon

When Preaching Was a Crime
Open-air preaching was illegal. Officials feared that demagogues would incite revolution. For this reason, John was careful never to side with any political faction in his teachings. All the same he was in danger. Warned that he was to be arrested if he held church at a friend's house, he went anyway, determined to set an example of boldness. If he fled, weaker brethren would see it and run also. He was seized.

John Bunyan in "Glimpses" from the Christian History Institute (http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps086.shtml)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"How would you describe the spiritual aroma of your home? When visitors arrive, before virtually anything is said or done, what is one of the first thing they notice about your family? In many cases, it is the aroma. Do they feel as though a bad attitude crawled under your refrigerator and died? Or do they think someone has been baking spiritual bread in the kitchen all afternoon? ...

Paul teaches us that we ought self-consciously to think of our marriages as dim pictures of the central marriage, that of Christ to His Church. It is a great mystery, he says, but when a man leaves his father and mother, and takes a wife, he makes a proclamation concerning Christ and the Church. Depending on the marriage, that declaration is made poorly or well, but it is always made."</FONT>

Reforming Marriage
Douglas Wilson
Canon Press
Moscow Idaho, 1995

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"Throughout the Scriptures, God has given many promises to those parents who fear Him. From the beginning, biblical child-rearing in the light of these promises has been covenantal. As we have seen, godly offspring are sought by God in the homes of His people as the result of a godly marriage covenant.

"But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth." Mal.2:15

In the previous verse the wife was described as a wife "by covenant." Marriage is a covenantal union, designed by God with a set purpose in mind--and that purpose is a fruitful covenantal union. God designed biblical marriage with the intention of bringing godly offspring into the world."</FONT>

Standing On The Promises: A Handbook Of Biblical Childrearing
Douglas Wilson
Canon Press
Moscow Idaho, 1997

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

have you rprayed today?

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Yes

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

keep praying

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">"Sarah was a young bride. She was seventeen and he was twenty-four. She had first met Edwards when she was thirteen, and in that year he wrote his perceptions of her. It was her spiritual maturity that impressed him the most. He wrote that God "comes to her and fills her mind with exceeding sweet delight, and that she hardly cares for anything, except to meditate on him...She is of a wonderful sweetness, calmness and universal benevolence of mind; especially after this Great God has manifested himself to her mind." In his view, her outward manner matched her inner depth: "She will sometimes go about from place to place, singing sweetly; and seems to be always full of joy and pleasure;...she loves to be alone, walking in the fields and groves, and seems to have some one invisible always conversing with her.""
(This describes Sarah Edwards wife to Jonathan.)</FONT>

Private Lives of Pastors Wives
Ruth A. Tucker
Zondervan, Grand Rapids
1988
Previously published as "First Ladies of the Parish"

somebonus@yahoo.com

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"Mohammed was a sickly child who suffered from epilepsy and this undoubtedly influenced the whole course of his life. Being orphaned when a child he was taken into the home of his uncle, Abu Talib, whom he once accompanied on a business trip to Syria, where he visited Jewish and Christian settlements, and saw and heard many things which impressed him deeply. At the age of 25, he entered the service of Kadijah, a rich widow, and carried on her husband's trade. In this he prospered greatly and soon married Kadijah who was 14 years older than himself. In trading he became still better acquainted with Jews and Christians and his own fellow-countrymen, and formed the conviction that a new religion was needed. He thought much on the unity of God and conceived the idea that he was a messenger of God, who had to warn his people that they could only escape condemnation by giving up their idols and turning to the worship of the one Supreme God whom he knew as Allah.

In his 40th year Mohammed spent a whole month in solitude n a mountain cave near Mecca called the cave of Hira. He said that while he was there he saw visions and received messages from heaven. He also claimed that the words were spoken to him, 'O Mohamet, of a truth thou art the prophet of God,; fear not; I am his angel, Gabriel.

He gave his new religion the name Islam, which means 'obedience' or 'surrender'."</FONT>

From:
Sketches From Church History
S.M. Houghton
Banner of Truth Trust
Edinburgh, UK and Carlisle, PA
1980

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"A friend of mine tells about a young woman she knew who had mistreated her parents, spurning their love and writing them out of her life. Later she became a Christian. But even after her conversion, she still never bothered to reconcile with her mother and father. My friend finally asked her about it. 'I will,' said the young woman, 'when the Lord tells me to.' As of yet, she explained, the Lord hadn't urged on her heart that she should make up with her parents. She was willing to do so, but only if God wanted her to do it. And if he did, she expected that God would make his will clear to her through the Holy Spirit.

'Do you want to know what God wants you to do about your parents?' asked my friend. 'You don't need to wait for him to tell you his will. Let see what he says about it.' She opened a Bible to Exodus 20:12 'Honor your father and mother,' she read. 'That's what God tells you to do,' she explained. That's God making his will clear to you through the Holy Spirit.'"</FONT>

From:
Why God's Word Is All We Need
Gene Edward Veith
Today's Issues Series
Crossway Books
Wheaton IL 2000

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Oh, you mean she couldn't be led by her "personal walk"? How legalistic! LOL

[Anonymous (68.33.152.228)]

Blessed be the (what)man to whom YHWH does not imputeth any inquity ... whatman's eyes full of mercy is a wweepingg in the mirror of God's Word (no never forgeteth) reciprocating to others the same standard of unconditional chesed-charis that Christ has given to him, his own bad self (please listen o self righteoas o a murderin' o a slanderin' o a deceiven' o a thieven' o a lustin' o a cussin' o a usin' o a boastin' a toastin' o o Oh, my God forgive them! for they know not what they do) Behold!! Jesus, the only one friend of sinners!!! He shows us all the most excellent way, the biggest love that shurely surpassesd all understandin' ... "Only the heaven mind can be to the utmost earthly good" Whatman See (whattheproblemismehasareadingdisability, butloveitdeletesamultitudeofsinswithno recyclebin-liveinnewlife)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Isn't it interesting how the "personal walk" people claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit who "spoke by the prophets" leads them away from the revelation of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. God then must be a true schizophrenic.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

God's not schizophrenic....he's just not locked in a box. He allows for the picking corn on the Sabbath and breaking bread with the "unclean" Samaratian, prostitute and tax collector. He healed the lepers, set the demonized man free, and fulfilled the law that we might know God personally without needing a priest between God and man. God's Holy Spirit has led people to unconventional ways when necessary. Amy Carmichael spent the last years of her life in bed unable to assemble, saw few people, and maintained her spirituality with few visits from leaders of assemblies. Her writings are heralded as Christian gold. Her book "Rose from Brier" was her words to those similarly afflicted....from a "brier, a rose for others", she was an inspiration to me long before I was confined and continues to be. Her work in the temples rescuing the chldren from prostitution was remarkable to say the least, but her last years as she wrote to people who asked for her guidance are very biblical and Holy Spirit led, and everyone testifies.

She did what the Holy Spirit led her to do and she belssed millions and she could not leave her rooms. A simply wonderful Christian was Amy thats for certain.

Just a few thoughts, not looking to pick a fight. Her books are surely recommended by many Christians, my library is fortunate to have many I am happy to say, as I sure yours must be.

Blessings

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">"...and yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God’s Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another. Wherefore, although the Church be a witness and a keeper of Holy Writ, yet, as it ought not to decree any thing against the same, so besides the same ought it not to enforce any thing to be believed for necessity of salvation."</FONT>

From the Thirty Nine Articles of the Church of England

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"I am the Lord, I change not."-Malachi 3:6</FONT>

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

So, Amy Carmichael was off?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">It is well for us that, amidst all the variableness of life, there is One whom change cannot affect; One whose heart can never alter, and on whose brow mutability can make no furrows. All things else have changed-all things are changing. The sun itself grows dim with age; the world is waxing old; the folding up of the worn-out vesture has commenced; the heavens and earth must soon pass away; they shall perish, they shall wax old as doth a garment; but there is One who only hath immortality, of whose years there is no end, and in whose person there is no change. The delight which the mariner feels, when, after having been tossed about for many a day, he steps again upon the solid shore, is the satisfaction of a Christian when, amidst all the changes of this troublous life, he rests the foot of his faith upon this truth-"I am the Lord, I change not."


The stability which the anchor gives the ship when it has at last obtained a hold-fast, is like that which the Christian's hope affords him when it fixes itself upon this glorious truth. With God "is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." What ever His attributes were of old, they are now; His power, His wisdom, His justice, His truth, are alike unchanged. He has ever been the refuge of His people, their stronghold in the day of trouble, and He is their sure Helper still. He is unchanged in His love. He has loved His people with "an everlasting love"; He loves them now as much as ever He did, and when all earthly things shall have melted in the last conflagration, His love will still wear the dew of its youth. Precious is the assurance that He changes not! The wheel of providence revolves, but its axle is eternal love.


"Death and change are busy ever,
Man decays, and ages move;
But His mercy waneth never;
God is wisdom, God is love."</FONT>

A devotional by Spurgeon

[Bob Brinton (141.154.182.131)]

This isn't a complaint; but I don't necessarily consider the 39 Articles of the Church of England to be equal to the Word itself. Luther went against longstanding tradition within the Church. Was he not right to do so? I don't think tradition is a safeguard against heresy. But I love your insistance on the Word as our ultimate guide; along with the Spirit, of course. And it is likely that the 39 Articles have more Scriptural content and basis than Pink Floyd.

Here are a couple of quotes from Bob Brinton (maybe he got them from God, or maybe they're just his): "The words that have value are built out of the silences of listening and contemplation."
"He who does not listen is alone."

[Bob Brinton (141.154.182.131)]

I love the Spurgeon.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Cor. 2:13
Used to substantiate the quote from the Thirty-nine articles.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta,
It is a joke that you even try to compare yourself with Amy Carmichael. Just because you both were shut-ins...the comparison ends there. Amy Carmichael was a woman who honored the Word of God, whereas you put "what is right for the individual" above the Word. You write as if all world religions and belief systems were on a par with Christianity and will all lead to God in their own way. Comparing yourself to Amy Carmichael is like Shirley McLain comparing herself to Mother Theresa

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Anon 64...I don't compare myself to anyone. She simply happens to be someone I admire, as is Mother Theresa and a host of others. I really am not the horrible person you portray me as.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Anon 64 I don't understand your hostility for people who don't believe the way you do. No matter how or what you think of me, I am a person who loves God, I thank him everyday for saving my life and my soul. I hold no issue with your beliefs, and yet anyone here who posts and is not believing exactly like you is immediately looked down upon. Can't you see this does not reveal the Christ? I still tell you that God has a much bigger heart than you who are of the belief that you will exclusively have Heaven to yourselves.

Jesus ate with publicans, sinners, etc. He loved them...it is the goodness of God that leads to repentence. If you Christians of the book would be less cruel in your dealings with others, they might see the Christ in you...not the scourge and damnation that you exhibit.

It is within your rights to call me whatever you wish, but I still cannot fathom why you consider yourself a better Christian than others here who aren't flaunting their excusivity. It simply does not reveal the Christ you print here in the scripture. The law killeth but the spirit giveth life...I hear only the law from you. And extreme unkindness, not just to me, but to others.

This is not Christ...this is intolerance for the souls and lives of others...something the Mother Theresa's and Amy Carmichaels understood so much better than "I'm a better Christian than you" types like you can.

Your attitude still baffles me, Anon...I'll pray for you, though I think it is a sin isn't it for you to pray for me?

*confused and sad*

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

64, I thank God for Roberta. She reminds me of Amy Carmichael. Please refrain from attacking those you know nothing about.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Bob, you wrote

"But I love your insistance on the Word as our ultimate guide; along with the Spirit, of course."

Insistance on the Word as excluded most of us here from Jim's cordiality. He has apologised to GGWO for having anything to do with those who don't go to church. Do you agree with him on this ...because if so you will have to deny me and others as he has to stay in his good grace, I think.

No matter what he thinks, I, as a friend of yours, would personally like to know what you think on this.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta, when you say "You Christians of the book" are you referring to the Bible? No one is claiming to be a better Christian than you and you have mastered the art of twisting every person's words who ever posts in disagreement with you. What many have tried to point out to you is that you can't have it all ways. Jesus said there is one way and that is to lay it down and follow HIM. All religions don't end at Jesus and Jesus does NOT come to the table to break bread with a gathering of false gods. He will come to the table and gather with sinners. He is in the business of saving sinners. There is a difference between false gods and sinners. I must disagree with your notion that there are many ways to get to heaven. There is one way to get to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. A part of following Jesus Christ means to accept and live the word that is given in the Bible.

One more point is that you also misquoted Jim. He never told anyone that he or anyone else has to shun you or stop speaking to you. I believe it was you who pulled back your olive branch because he didn't meet your demands.

I will repeat what I have said before. You try to be subtle, but you are obvious in your attempts to pull people away from Christianity. Your bitterness appears to run deeper than Carl Stevens and TBS. Your bitterness seems to be to try and convince people that they can reach heaven in other ways besides Christianity. That is as false a notion as anything that Carl Stevens has ever put on the table.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Is it the child abuse issue that makes you attack Roberta? Have something to hide? Outrage over the abuse of others does not label one as bitter just outraged.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta,
Stop trying to get people divided into sides. "Insistance on the Word" as you put it, is not Bob's idea or Jim's idea, but God's idea. He is the one who told us to live by every Word of God. You have rationalized that every way you can. You are not the issue and your conflicts with Jim are not the issue (to anyone but yourself). If wanting to honor the Word puts people at odds with you, that is no one's problem but your own

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

No it is the fact that Roberta bashes the word of God. It is the fact that she attempts to pull people away from Christianity by giving them wrong information about what Christianity is and isn't. Jesus made it pretty clear about what it is. He even left us an instruction manual called THE BIBLE. It is her habit of attacking everyone who disagrees with her and then cries poor me when people get sick of it.

Funny, that I didn't even talk about the other thread for abused people and yet you try to change the subject and make this appear that my comment was about that. But since you brought it up,no I don't believe what she posts on the other thread either. I think she is trying to sound a lot of bells by posting false allegations. I think that she has forever put into question credibility of people who truly suffer from abuse if they are out there because of her constant attempts to get attention for herself on that thread.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

"64, I thank God for Roberta. She reminds me of Amy Carmichael. Please refrain from attacking those you know nothing about."

Oh, I think we all know a lot about Roberta and about what she believes. She has made sure of that. And if speaking against that is what you call "attacking", then I will not refrain from attacking her false religion she claims is Christianity. BTW, maybe you ought to check out Amy Carmichael a little more closely if Roberta reminds you of her

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta is not the problem at hand. Greater Grace and Carl Stevens is. Any ideas for addressing the REAL problem?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Turn people away from Christianity? This you have said before, and you are wrong. I just would like to live my Christian beliefs without judgement. Yes, when I said Christians of the book, I did mean literalists. I am twisting nothing, and Jesus does come and break bread as a friend with people of other faiths...it is called missions.

I am not bitter, nor upset with men in general or any other of the judgements you have made about me. I was a Christian before I came to TBS, am happy to be be Christian, but like others, am not comfortable with the angry, exclusivity and "my way or the highway" view of things. I believe that loving people where they are at is often a better approach to introoducing them to Christianity rather than a scare tactic type that promises them hell if they don't convert. You fail to see that for whatever reason. A gentle approach can win many, where a harsh approach can turn away many. Why is that a difficult thing to understand?

You have misjudged me, and it is obvious you will cling to your own thoughts about what you think I am:

"No one is claiming to be a better Christian than you and you have mastered the art of twisting every person's words who ever posts in disagreement with you."

You say this in many of your angry posts to me. You are and have been claiming to be a better Christian than people who do not see the issues as you do. It has been made very clear to many that this is true, and as for twisting? My stance is as it has been from the begnning...No matter how you accuse or see into my words what you want to see, I am not being subtle in any way. I have stated blundly how I feel and it is no secret:

I say that winning souls means loving people...all people, people who's gods are different, who's woship and practices are different, people who are culturally different. I say you cannot offer Christ to anyone unless you love them. For that's who Jesus is...one who loved so much that he died and rose again for people who hated him.

I will never shun a Christian or non Christian brother or sister for his or her beliefs, I would never insist that they fall into line and believe as I do or they cannot speak with me. I would never apologize to anyone for being friends with someone who did not share my beliefs...ever. And neither would Jesus were he here. He would gather that person closer as a friend and love them so much that they would want to follow...that is the Jesus I read about in my Bible..."I would have gathered you unto me but you would not"...the man who was God that drew people to him by love, kindness, understanding and compassion.

Sorry to disagree with you yet again, but you do not understand where I am coming from at all. Is it because you have closed your ears? Have you made a judgement already and now are too entrenched to change it? Or are you really so narrow of mind that any other approach to Christianity is anathema and frightening?

The early missionaries to Africa actually immersed themselves into the cultures of the African people so that they might find a way to relate the love of God to them. Were they twisting Scripture? Did they slay the natives with cruelty and unkindness? No, and they weren't unkind to each other either...for to show Christ to them they had to be Christ to each other.

This is what I have been talking about here. For some reason this seems to not make sense but to a few. The Christians of the Book...the leaglists, especially disdain me for this approach. I fail to understand it, but such is the case. Have I lost my temper here on this board, yes. Why? Frustration that the same people who claim to love God and seek to bring Christ to a world who needs him, refuse to see fellow Christians as worthy as they...what was said to Martin and Marcus was just off the charts. That's no way to win people to the truth.

I know, I know...you will claim that once again I sound bitter, angry, have deeper issues etc. I cannot change your mind, of that I am pretty sure. But I will say that I am so grateful that the wonderful lady who brought me to Christ understood me...wooed me...loved me...sought to understand my needs so she could better show me how My Father could meet them. Helen was a marvelous human being, who left TBS during the Pastor Quinlan split. She taught me how to love people who need Christ, how to draw them, not put them down, not belittle them, and she taught me to have respect for individuals and how they walk with God. She knew that we are all individuals and therfore each was to be respected.

I will always love her for being the kind of Christian who never mentioned hell, never berated me once for loving science, for reading about Buddha...she told me Jesus wasn't worried who I read about only that I knew he loved me forever, more than anyone else ever would or ever could, and nothing could ever seperate me from him. I have never forgotten, never.

Don't believe I don't love Christ, it hurts everytime you say that. You just don't know me. You have assumed much, taken much out of context. No, I do not believe like you and Jim do. I will agree with you there, but that does not make me a non-believer no matter what you say.

I hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears, but if it does so be it. God and I are good friends, and he knows what I mean, and that I love him and I realize he loves me regardless of what is said about or to me.

Blessings.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Anonymous (149.174.164.83)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:13 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberta is not the problem at hand. Greater Grace and Carl Stevens is. Any ideas for addressing the REAL problem?


Anon 149...I have some ideas...I posted them to the new forum.

Roberta

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta, you are wrong on many fronts. There is a commandment about false gods. When you said read about Buddha, you can mean read about Buddha or embrace Buddha. If you embrace Buddha, you are embracing a false god and that should be clear. It is not a matter of "my way or the highway." It is the way of the cross or eventual hell. If someone spends their whole life rejecting Jesus and embracing a false god like Buddha then it will eventually lead to "God's way or the hell way." Hell is a real place.

No one has ever said to stop loving any of them and hooray for you for twisting words yet again. Jesus said to hate the sin but love the sinner. Yes he does sit and break bread with sinners and yes missionaries can reach people who worship false gods. But Christian missionaries don't embrace that god and tell people, "It's okay, Jesus understands and this god will get you to heaven too." Christian missionaries spread Christianity.

I believe you know who Christ is. I don't think that you accept that the Bible is the one true word of God. I think that you know who Jesus is, but you have made it clear with your own words that you don't accept the fact that the acceptance of Jesus is the only way to reach heaven. I don't think, by your own words that you believe that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.

Winning souls is not just about loving people. I know people who I love dearly. I know people who believe in no God at all. I can love them all I want to but if they don't accept Jesus then they have chosen the "hellway". I will continue to love nonbelievers but I will continue to speak of Jesus when they question my beliefs.

Call it legalistic all you want. If believing that the Bible is the word of God then sign me up to be as legalistic as I can be.

God is an all loving God. He is also a just God. He would never force Himself or heaven on anyone. Therefore, if anyone refuses to accept His ways and chooses instead to embrace Buddha then why would they want to spend eternity with Jesus. Instead God will allow them to spend that eternity with buddha and all other false gods. There does come a day where you must decide where you stand.

And yes Roberta you do shun Christians on this board all the time. Sometimes you just can't see the forest for the trees.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

"I am twisting nothing, and Jesus does come and break bread as a friend with people of other faiths...it is called missions."

Yes, Roberta, but missions is not just breaking bread....it is also showing them that Jesus and not their religion is the way, showing them through the Word. Christians of the Book are the only true Christians, God is not separated from His Word.

"I was a Christian before I came to TBS, am happy to be be Christian, but like others, am not comfortable with the angry, exclusivity and "my way or the highway" view of things"

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. JOHN 14:6

Is that too LITERAL for you, Roberta?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Seems like there are two of us 205s posting here, and we totally agree...we have more in common than our IP numbers! AMEN 205!

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Yes, 205...He said "but by me".

That does not mean you.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

It's funny, Jesus loves me and you don't. Oh well, so much for legalistic Christian love. Now I understand Karen a bit better.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I know other 205 I was thinking the same thing. Amen!

Roberta (141) you are right it says through HIM. And it says it in THAT book. There is no place in the Bible that says, "Go and get the best of everything from every religion and then I'll make room for you at my table." People will have to choose. It is through Jesus!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Show me one place Roberta where anyone said they don't love you. My mother loves me dearly. When I was a child she corrected me if I ran out in traffic. You are telling people to run out in traffic when you hint that heaven can be found through false religions.

Make no mistake about it. You are loved. Please stop twisting words and manipulating words to make people think you are being told that you aren't loved. I think you need to realize that you are loved so much that Jesus is enough. No other gods are needed.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

"No one has ever said to stop loving any of them and hooray for you for twisting words yet again. Jesus said to hate the sin but love the sinner. Yes he does sit and break bread with sinners and yes missionaries can reach people who worship false gods. But Christian missionaries don't embrace that god and tell people, "It's okay, Jesus understands and this god will get you to heaven too." Christian missionaries spread Christianity.

I believe you know who Christ is. I don't think that you accept that the Bible is the one true word of God. I think that you know who Jesus is, but you have made it clear with your own words that you don't accept the fact that the acceptance of Jesus is the only way to reach heaven. I don't think, by your own words that you believe that salvation is only through Jesus Christ."

Then you believe wrongly. Our approach to soul winning differs, that all the difference there is. This time you have been twisting things... I never said these things. I just don't believe in bashing other gods with people who sincerely believe in them. There are better ways to show them the love of God through Christ than being milataristic, aggressive and hard. How can you ask someone, or demand someone believe in a Christ that loves them as you tear away at their culture with disdain? That is my disagreement.

You make light of my finding Amy Carmichael a hero...but she is. She ripped the kids away from the dangers of Temple prostiution...a crime in India to do so, butr when she got them safely away she taught them about Jesus lovingly, slowly, by example and hands on loving, without immediatly insisting they change their mode of dress, style etc...that came a long time later. She was a true hero of the faith, a missionary marvel and I admire her, no matter how you twist my words. Mother Theresa was the same kind of example...she clothed and fed them and loved them, these dirty throw away people. She gave everything, and never threatened them with hell if they didn't convert from Islam, or Buddhism or whatever religion they were. They came to Christ because she was Chriat to them.

I find this so easy to see, and such a wonderful way to approach missions...loving people. God's people...and yet you sound like I was speaking a foreign language.

Well, I just think the way I think and you think the way you think. You're right, according to you, and I am wrong. So be it. I leave you the last word. My hands aren't working well (another grasp for pity, yes yes, I know *sigh*)

Godd night. I will remember you in my prayers.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Roberta,
From what you have posted here, I honestly question whether you are even truly saved. How do you put it....*gasp*...yes, I really said that. No one with the Holy Spirit inside them could so consistently water down the salvation message and trivialize the Word the way you do. It is as if the Word of God is optional but not essential to you, and as if Jesus is one of many paths to God. That is NOT Christianity. From what you have posted it does seem as if you have been deceived by an angel of light and are proclaiming another gospel. Angel of light....GOOD but not GOD, a false counterfeit that looks real until held up to the scrutiny of the Word. No wonder you are not a "Christian of the Book"

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:00 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Show me one place Roberta where anyone said they don't love you. My mother loves me dearly. When I was a child she corrected me if I ran out in traffic. You are telling people to run out in traffic when you hint that heaven can be found through false religions.

Make no mistake about it. You are loved. Please stop twisting words and manipulating words to make people think you are being told that you aren't loved." I think you need to realize that you are loved so much that Jesus is enough. No other gods are needed."


I know when I am being loved and when I am not, I don't need you, mama, to tell me the difference.

"I think you need to realize that you are loved so much that Jesus is enough. No other gods are needed."

And I think that remark wasn't called for and thank you for provong my point.

RJ

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

If you love someone, you speak to them in love...with love...lovingly...

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

'
Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:09 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberta,
From what you have posted here, I honestly question whether you are even truly saved. How do you put it....*gasp*...yes, I really said that. No one with the Holy Spirit inside them could so consistently water down the salvation message and trivialize the Word the way you do. It is as if the Word of God is optional but not essential to you, and as if Jesus is one of many paths to God. That is NOT Christianity. From what you have posted it does seem as if you have been deceived by an angel of light and are proclaiming another gospel. Angel of light....GOOD but not GOD, a false counterfeit that looks real until held up to the scrutiny of the Word. No wonder you are not a "Christian of the Book"


I have been waiting for this one *LOL* How predictable. Ok, let's review. Jim called me an angel of light...you are questioning my salvation.

Nice.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Jim,
Seems we owe you an apology for taking over your reading thread with these unrelated posts...Sorry!

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Oh yes...so sorry Jim

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, <U>what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?</U> 1Pe 4:17

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the <FONT COLOR="ff0000">faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and <U>to convince the gainsayers.</U></FONT> 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Is there anything at all which we MUST believe in order to be a Christian? Why should anyone believe anything at all? Christianity, whether we like it or not, is an exclusive faith. When God says He is jealous, is he joking? Has he loosened his standards? Is He now a universalist? Why was he so nitpicky over that 'strange fire' offered at the altar? Why in the world would he strike down poor Uzzah for touching the ark? Has God changed?

The God of the Bible will share worship with no other--simply because there is no other.

While it is certain that we vary in gifts, in temperment, in calling and yes even in our feeble understanding of a Holy and transcendant God--He has chosen the means by which He will be revealed and by which He may be known--His Word and Sacraments. While we may see evidence of God in creation and even in the marred image we still retain--only in His word does He through the Spirit choose to lead us in to all truth. The truth of the Gospel is to be communicated by human means--our mouths. It is assumed that the Gospel can be understood and obeyed. There is but one Gospel, and to preach another is to mislead others away from the truth in Christ.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.137.192)]

Roberta, I have no problem with being associated with believers who are not part of the organizational structure of churches. I believe the Church is the people who believe, and that when we gather (even here) that He is in our midst. I'm not against organization. I believe we need correction and balance from other believers.

I consider you to be serving the Lord here. I don't agree with all that you write; but even when I disagree, I can see logic behind what you're saying. I sincerely hope that you and Jim can become more accepting of your differences. I don't want either of you to compromise your convictions; unless the Lord leads you to that. I was really pleased with what Steve Quinlan wrote under his thread. We should all seek to humble ourselves before God and be respectful of His work in others, even when we don't understand it or find it disagreeable. God uses all of us, even in error. We could do with some healthier doses of mutual support. Not support of what we disagree with, but in the places we find our oneness.

Some people repeatedly express a desire to leave this board; but I want to hold on to this. Any place we can express truth and find the Lord between us is worth fighting for. We need to deeply consider that our oneness is in the Lord, and not just in 'a common enemy'. In fact, the perceived 'enemy' is part of our own family. I've always sought wholeness and right relation to the Head for all here. That will continue to be my goal. I love Jim, and I do attend a local church. But I also go beyond the church walls to believers who are without. If you read the parables in Luke 15, you can see Jesus accused of ministering to those outside the religious structure of His day. The coin did not lose itself. The woman lost it. Some outside the churches have been lost by them; through abuse or neglect or whatever. The prodigal walked away; but as he came the father ran to greet him. Jesus was doing what the Pharisees should have been; seeking to restore men and women to God - not just the unsaved. This is part of God's intention for factnet. I hope this suitably answers your question. It honors me that you consider me a friend. I consider you mine as well. Love, Bob

[Bob Brinton (70.17.137.192)]

To all; One of the things in the last year or so that has really blessed and hurt me was to take a strong stand on behalf of my best friend (a woman, Jim), who was isolated from a lot of people who had been dear close friends for years by the actions and words of a pastor she had trusted. It cost me a lot to do this; but you know what? It has been worth it to follow through on what I know the Lord wants of me; even when it causes trouble for me that I could avoid. My friend is worth whatever it costs. Her walk with God is of more value to me than my own comfortability. So if you want to throw verbal (or actually typed) rocks at me for defending people here, go ahead. Throw whatever God places in your hand. Bob

[Bob Brinton (70.17.137.192)]

There seems to be a lot of stretching posters' words beyond what they have actually said. If I were to say that I love horses, would that mean that I approve of betting on them? Let's try not to read ill intent and heresy into people's words that is not actually there. Roberta has never said that there is salvation in anyone other than Jesus Christ. For anyone to derive that from her words is ludicrous.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.137.192)]

Roberta, Jim is not trying to hook you up with a particular church or pastor. He doesn't seek to abuse you or gain money. His intentions toward you are honorable. He seeks your good. He believes that spiritual health requires some kind of answer to human authority in your life, the involvement with you of a pastor and a local assembly; that communicates with you on a regular basis. He doesn't want you to be isolated. He has suggested that it even could be by phone. I think it's possible that you have someone who you look to in this way; though it might not be someone Jim would consider qualified. If that's so, maybe you can say so here. Or, you can further explain why this doesn't work for you. I, for one, don't detect pride or attempts to deceive on your part.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Thank you, Bob.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

"They came to Christ because she was Chriat to them."

Roberta, Mother Theresa was not Christ to anyone. She introduced Christ to them but was not Christ for them. Be careful with the subtle words you speak. When she brought Christ to them she brought Christ. She did not bring other gods along for the ride.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

From Roberta, "You make light of my finding Amy Carmichael a hero...but she is. She ripped the kids away from the dangers of Temple prostiution...a crime in India to do so, butr when she got them safely away she taught them about Jesus lovingly, slowly, by example and hands on loving, without immediatly insisting they change their mode of dress, style etc.."

Do you realize that Amy Carmichael is not responsible for any of the above. Do you realize that she is just a vessel and none of that could have been accomplished except through the God of the Bible.I think she would be the first to attest to that. Roberta the strength is not at the hands of man but at the hands of Jesus Christ.If you believe the Bible to be the word of God then how can you possibly argue that it is wrong.And Christianity doesn't say you must change people's dress code.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Enough.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

64, You come across the fool with your attack on Roberta. Give it a rest.. it's the Sabbath, remember???

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

ANY SIMILARITIES FROM THIS ARTICLE TO GGWO?

REPORT ON "THE BIBLE SPEAKS", LENOX, MASSACHUSETTS
Prepared by Gospel Truth Ministries, Inc., Box 518, Sandwich, MA 02563 March 28, 1981
__________________________________________________ __________________________



We are living in a day, when, more and more we are witnessing the growth of a particular kind of threat to the Christian church, one which is rising up from within the very ranks of the body of Christ. We find scriptural warnings against being misled in this manner in the epistle of Jude, as well as in Romans 16:17 &amp; 18, where Paul exhorts: "Now I be­seech you brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." A similar reference is found at Acts 20:29&amp;30: "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also, of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

How aptly these warnings relate to the tragic events at the Penple's Temple in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones had professed to be a born-again believer, and yet his authority and control were allowed to go unchecked, to the extent that in time he became more important to his followers than Jesus Christ. Many who died in that jungle were professed Christians. Other groups which have misled many genuinely born-again Christians, ­though not to that extreme, would include Victor Paul Wiewille's The Way International, the Local Church of Witness Lee, and others. It was out of concern for the unity of the body of Christ that a number of ministries, dedicated to the defense of the Christian faith against doctrinal error from outside as well as within, have felt the need to express a warning, in love, relative to certain divisive tendencies which have been exhibited by the Bible Speaks Ministry, of Lenox, Massachusetts.

It is, understandably, a difficult task to have to scrutinize a ministry which is generally recognized as a Christian body, with much good fruit in evidence. Some research ministries have termed the Bible Speaks an "aberrations Christian group", a research category applied to groups not too far removed from the evangelical/fundamentalist realm in the area of basic doctrine, and many of whose leaders were, at one time, members in good standing within conventional evangelical denominations. Many sincere evangelical Christians are members of some of these organizations without realizing (or admitting) the cultic characteristics which the groups have developed. These members are understandably concerned and hurt when critical attention is directed toward them or their leaders. However, the application of the term "aberrational" is based upon both theological and socio-psychological criteria. Nonetheless, it is with much prayer, and with a motivation of love and caring for those in and considering associa­tion with The Bible Speaks Ministry, that this report is prepared and presented.


Carl H. Stevens, Pastor and Founder of The Bible Speaks, was born in West Sumner, Maine, on November k, 1929. After graduation from school he became a salesman for the Cushman bakeries. In 1961 Stevens became Pastor of a Bible church in Milton, Maine, co-pastoring churches in West Sumner and Norway. He was named area co-ordinator for Youth for Christ, as well as serving a term as President of the Oxford County Camp of the Gideons. In September 1962 he was named Pastor of the badly failing Montsweag Baptist Church. Many who knew Stevens in these early days of his ministry have expressed the opinion that he was a dynamic minister, who preached the gospel as it had seldom been heard in New England.



According to Bible Speaks literature, Stevens was ordained by a council of independent ministers at the Montsweag Baptist Church on March 7, 1963, although he had reportedly been active in Christian work since receiving Christ in 1952.

Within six months of Stevens' assuming the pastorate at Montsweag, the church began to realize significant growth, apparently due to a visita­tion program instituted by Stevens, with the intent of inviting people to church and winning the unsaved to Christ. After a time, the church members voted to drop their affiliation with the organized Baptist Church and become independent. By 1967 the congregation had grown to a point where a new church building was needed. The new church was named The Woolwich-Wiscasset Baptist Church, and was dedicated in 1968.

By 1971, under Stevens' leadership, the Northeast School of the Bible be­gan on a part-time basis. In 1972 the school opened on a full-time schedule with 100 students registering. By 1975 the attendance was 325.

In 1973 both the Church and the School relocated in South Berwick, Maine. There is an element of controversy surrounding the move to South Berwick. The Bible Speaks Book of Miracles states simply that through several attacks made against the ministry, it was made clear that God desired the body to move to another area. Other reports, however, indicate that serious differences arose within the body, causing a division with one faction remaining faithful to Stevens and following him to South Berwick, and the other faction remaining at Wiscasset. There are indications that even households were affected by this division, with one mate leaving the other to follow Stevens.

With the move to South Berwick came the beginning of what The Bible Speaks calls the corporate community, with families and individuals living on the church premises.

By 1973 The Bible Speaks "Telephone Time" Program was being broadcast over Portland and Boston radio stations. Since that time The Bible Speaks has been active in sending out missionary teams to numerous foreign lands with significant results in the number of souls won to Christ. While in South Berwick The Bible Speaks had an active bus ministry, with the state Sunday school attendance record being broken in April of 1976, with 2,042 children coming to hear of Christ. By late summer of 1976 The Bible Speaks World headquarters were established in Lenox, Mass. on a 96 acre tract of land with some 25 buildings. The Stevens School of the Bible and Stevens Christian Schools opened in September 1976. The ministry also purchased two additional tracts of 12 and 35 acres. They presently lease the en­tire campus of the Holliston Junior College, renaming it The Bible Speaks West.

According to information provided to Gospel Truth Ministries by the Bible Speaks public relations department, pastor Stevens has no formal theological training, but official literature indicates he has received an honorary Doctorate of Divinity and Doctorate of Letters and Law from Clarksville School of Theology in Clarksville, Tennessee.

The Bible Speaks, according to its publications, has active members in 17 states and 20 countries, with over 220 Bible studies and services weekly in the United States and more than 280 worldwide. The Bible School has 28 extension schools and a total enrollment of over 1,000. According to their statistics, the outreach program has had impressive results as well, with 1,500 professions of faith in 1974, an estimated 6,000 in 1975, and 12,000, 30,000 and 72,551 in 1977, 78, and 79 respectively.
It was in the early 1960's while Stevens was pastoring two small churches in Maine, according to the Bible Speaks Book of Miracles that "...God called him one day to the back of the woods near a lake. There the Lord Jesus baptized him with what Pastor describes as liquid waves of love.



Along with this experience God promised him several things. First and foremost, God promised an anointing upon every message he would preach from then on. Secondly, God gave the Scripture Isaiah 43:19 and showed Pastor He would build a church that the gates of hell could not prevail against. The Lord gave more definition by saying it would not be pro­duced overnight, but that He would build a 'one new man' of Ephesians 2:15 step by step." Isaiah 43:19 reads (NIV) "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the desert and streams in the wasteland."



It is interesting to note that the application of this verse to Stevens' ministry as well as the state­ment just cited, that the Lord "would build" a church that the gates of hell could not prevail against, and that such "would not be produced overnight" suggest that the building of the church by the Lord was to begin then, rather than already being an accomplished fact. Christianity historically has held to the position that the church was established by Jesus Christ nearly 2,000 years ago, and that the gates of hell have never been able to prevail against His church, nor will they. Expressions such as this have contributed to the fostering of an attitude which we have found to be quite common among members, past and present, of the Bible Speaks: that theirs is a higher calling; that the Bible speaks represents the fullness of Christianity as it can be experienced nowhere else.

Bible Speaks literature and recorded lectures contain numerous state­ments which would further contribute to an attitude of superiority among the adherents to the movement. Some examples would be "A, person can be saved, go to Heaven and yet on earth live apart from God's man. He may experience a certain portion of Kingdom life but he will never be full." (Tape #1410, and The Bible Speaks from the Throne, July 1976, pg. 14), and "We are hid in Christ and in the Corporate Body which is his full­ness." (Meditations from the Throne, Pg. 4).

This feeling that The Bible Speaks represents the fullness of Christ, and is of a higher calling than other Christian bodies has even been a factor in the breakup of some Christian marriages and households. This is not meaning to convey the thought that the Bible Speaks or Carl Stevens has necessarily condoned or encouraged such breakups, but simply that the view of that particular ministry, as held by many of its members, has been a contributing factor in the breakup of the marriages of at least some Christian couples.

It is taught that outside of the Corporate government of God's army, such as that claimed by the Bible Speaks, one is under the devil's head­ship. In Meditations from the Throne, pg. 3 we read: "We will not allow natural relationships to tie us in the Devil's bondage. Instead we step ahead, leaving eternity to explain the steps of God. We hearken to a higher calling."



Now, the casual reader may very well take this in appli­cation to the general walk as a Christian as being of a higher calling, than that of natural relationships, which may have been the intended mean­ing. However, as mentioned, we are aware of Christian couples who have separated when one mate chose to follow the higher calling of the Bible Speaks ministry with a stronger allegiance than he or she had for the other mate or for any other Christian body. On other instances Stevens has referred to the Bible Speaks as "the best thing going in New England." (Tape #1871, Living From a View of the Mountain.) There is a definite tendency among the Bible Speaks members we have spoken with to look down on other churches because their Pastors may not have the "anointing" attributed to Stevens, because other bodies may not be as actively en­gaged in soul-winning as The Bible Speaks, and because being outside of

"God's Corporate Government" these churches have no covering to protect them from the devil's attacks.

Adherents to the Bible Speaks are taught that Carl Stevens is God's man, God's delegated authority. One Bible Speaks publication said of this: "True delegated authority is an authority derived from love, which causes one to serve. Therefore, properly executed authority never demands 'obedience' nor exalts itself." Nonetheless, the claim to being God's man and His delegated authority has placed Stevens in a position of un­questioned authority in the minds of many Bible speaks adherents. Many quotations from Bible Speaks tapes and literature give the plain implica­tion that it would be wrong to question God's delegated authority. To do so would, in effect, be questioning God. To begin with, as you will re­call, Pastor Stevens alleges that God promised him an anointing upon every message he would ever preach, thus making his messages virtually God's words.



The introduction to Meditations from the Throne states "As you sit and read this book and discover its revelations, you soon will realize that it is not written by a man alone, but through a revela­tion straight from the throne of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." Thus, it appears that the Bible Speaks believes in continuing revelation as expressed through the person of Pastor Stevens. Of these revelations and of delegated authority we read in Meditations from the Throne on pages 10-11: "The seats of delegated authority have been filled with appointed servants chosen by God Himself.



If we forfeit the covering provided for guidance in life, it is as if we took off the Tabernacle roof causing the steps of our life to be without God's glory. Without our mind covered by the headship of Christ through God's leadership on earth, our natural mind and emotions operate in reaction to the atmosphere instead of revelation from God. We may have an eternal covering in Heaven but no experiential provision of revelation on earth."



Elsewhere it says: "Submit to the glory which has taken over the authority to which we are submitting. Submit to the glorified authority imparted to the man of God to be revealed on earth. Hear the Government." It concludes: "God's thoughts are uncovered to us when we are covered by his authority. The voice of God's man verbalizes the thoughts ministered by the Spirit. We first receive the word of revelation which gives us the word of recon­ciliation as we cry: '0 earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord' (Jeremiah 22:29) ."

Bible Speaks adherents have been taught to accept what Stevens says as God's words and to act upon such without question or hesitation. For example: "Revelation must not be left to discussion, but believed upon in immediate action. One place giver, to questioning truth revealed through God's man stops the flow of life for us in that personal truth." (The Bible Speaks from the Throne, December 1975, pg. 3). And "Every new word from God demands an immediate response of faith from man." (The Bible Speaks from the Throne, February 1976, pg. 11).

Tape#1410, "What it Means to be Baptized Unto a Man", contains statements such as the following: "If you don't hear the words of the servant of God, you are despising God." In another place we hear: "And all of a sudden you realize that it isn't him but it's Christ. He is no more than a servant or a messenger, but he is that. And because he is that from Christ you must receive his word and honor his message and obey his purpose."


On tape #1445,"Self Power vs. Christ is All in All", Stevens says the following: "When you come to a service and you hear a challenge, and
you personally get challenged, don't make a reservation to intellectually challenge me later through feelings; but humble yourself to what is being said as facts, and let God bring you up to what I am saying."

One of the most extreme teachings relative to questioning Stevens is found on tape #1350, Presumption vs. Speaking to the Rock, "If you have a close friend that evaluates anybody in delegated authority I'll guarantee you that if it's done with any consistency you'll be weak and sick and die within the future months (I Cor. 11:26-31)."


Total submission to delegated authority is stressed by such statements as "Imparted righteousness is received through the measure of your obe­dience to the Word in the submission to the government while in the state of continuing victories." (The Bible Speaks from the Throne, November 1975, pg. 19). Submission to the government does not mean earthly gov­ernment, but rather, God's government of delegated authority.

Similar emphasis, again pointing up the superior position of The Bible Speaks over other ministries is found in this quotation from The Bible Speaks from the Throne, July 1976, pg. 11: "There is a lot of good in Christianity today but the ultimate product is not bringing people into what they should be in the Kingdom because they are not in the order and line of delegated authority." And, on page 16: "Under submission to the choice of God's delegated authority there are pleasures forevermore. At His right hand we are seated in a delegated position by God, governmen­tally arranged with divine wisdom that we might experience the fullest potential possible to experience the abundant life now."

There is a distinct tendency among Bible Speaks adherents to elevate Dr. Stevens to a point bordering on adoration. This may be fostered by teachings on Stevens' part such as that in Tape #1675, 'Following a Man or God, wherein Stevens emphatically stresses that he is God's man, and following his teachings is likened to adherence to the Apostles' doctrine as referred to in Acts 2:42. While Stevens says the term "apostle" is to be applied to himself only in the sense that he is a master builder or organizer, many of his followers look at him as having the same stature as the first century apostles such as Paul.



I taught a Bible study some time ago where a young man who had recently begun attending the Stevens School of the Bible told me what a privilege it was for him to be sitting under the teachings of an Apostle. Further examples of how his followers view him can be seen in the Bible Speaks Book of Miracles. In the dedi­cation to that book, Stevens is referred to as the Good Shepherd, capital G, capital S. On the next page, in the section "ABOUT THE PASTOR" one reads: "What was it like to walk with Jesus, to see His smile, to be looked upon with that piercing glance, and to hear His precious voice speak those sanctified words? What was it like to laugh with Him, to cry with Him, to eat with Him and to be His friend? Most Christians have wondered this at one time or another. Those in the Bible Speaks stopped wondering years ago. To be a sheep under the shepherdship of Carl Stevens is to know intimately the person of the Lord...To know Pastor Stevens is to know Christ. To love the Pastor is to love the one who gave him to us. As one sheep I speak for thousands who have been led by our beloved shep­herd out of Egypt and out of the wilderness into the Promised Land." The November 1979 Crossroads magazine said of The Book of Miracles, which was published in 1975, "Unfortunately when people share from the depths of their hearts the love and devotion they have for the Lord, they sometimes over express themselves."



The article goes on to state that Dr. Stevens has never been one to exalt himself, that the introduction to The Book of Miracles is inconsistent with his personal views, and was written without his knowledge or consent. We are told that as soon as Dr. Stevens saw the book it was taken out of print. We have been unable to determine ex­actly when the book was withdrawn from circulation, but it was apparently available for 22 to 3 years, allegedly without Dr. Stevens being aware of its contents.


One of the more unusual doctrines of The Bible Speaks Ministry is one which was taught by Stevens in Tape #1410,"What it Means to be Baptized Unto a Man:' This message was excerpted, with some changes in The Bible Speaks from the Throne, July 1976, pp. 11-17. All of the following quotations are from one of these two sources. Stevens admitted that this was a teaching which he had never heard preached before. The essence of the message was this: "Do not try to live after salvation without being baptized into a Body, into the Word, and unto God's man."

With reference to the body one is to be baptized into, he said: "And that must be in a body not with a clique outside of the body, and out­side of true anointed, delegated leadership that is truly of God. There can be good people, but you just better remember that Jesus Christ doesn't anoint everyone for those positions." Stevens says that he is not saying you must be baptized unto him necessarily. But, he states that there were not many Moses', Joshuas, Elijahs, Peters or Pauls. "There were many Christians but there were not many leaders of that caliber, be­cause Jesus only has one of them ... usually, in a generation." All of this is in relation to God's man, a label which Dr. Stevens freely applies to himself.



Stevens has also said "People say, I am not going to follow a man, I am following Jesus. That cannot be done. If you follow Jesus, you follow God's man who leads you in the authority of the Kingdom of how to live in him." Stevens concluded the message "Be bap­tized unto a man of God, and be true to him for Jesus' sake, and honor him for Jesus' sake with double honor, in I Tim. 5:17, submit to him at Hebrews 13:17 for Jesus' sake, never criticizing him for Jesus' sake, being willing to die with him in I Cor. 3:9 for Jesus' sake; Why? Because that's the only way that you can experience the authority of delegated grace ... is to be in the authority of delegated life."


In one issue of Crossroads magazine it was written: "Dr. Stevens sees himself as a pastor and no more. Those were his exact words in a recent message. He is a sinner, saved by grace. A vessel who God has called, and he has responded, just as hundreds of pastors in the world did. He is deeply grieved when people exalt him, and his attitude is this - 'Be­lieve God, not me. If what I say should ever, for any reason, be off, then believe the Bible'." The particular choice of wording "He has re­sponded just as hundreds of pastors in the world did" could still leave
the reader with the impression that Stevens is of a very select group of pastors, merely hundreds, past and present.



Furthermore, while he says "Believe the Bible, not me" he often endeavors to prove to his audience that his message is biblical by using isolated proof texts, sometimes in a very far-fetched application. One such example would be in his sermon "What It Means to Be Baptized Unto a Man" wherein his theme text was I Corinthians 10:1&amp;2 "Moreover brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through-the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" On this verse, Stevens reasons that since the Israel­ites were "baptized unto Moses", and Christ was his head, then this is a pattern for New Testament believers to follow as well: to be baptized unto a specific man of God today, and follow him as the Israelites follow­ed Moses.



Unfortunately, we are not aware of one Bible scholar or commen­tator who sees this verse as Stevens' does, as being a pattern for New Testament believers, except insofar as the Israelites baptism unto Moses prefigures our baptism unto Christ. We have read numerous commentaries on this verse, and not one indicates that this is to set a pattern for believers today to follow a man of God as Moses was followed. Furthermore, the context of this verse brings out that even though the Israelites were "baptized unto Moses" God was displeased with many of them, and the passage concludes in verses 11 &amp; 12 with the fact that Paul had expounded on this situation with the Israelites as an admonition, that "He that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

There are other verses which The Bible Speaks has used in support of the "following a man" teaching, such as Phil. 3:17: "Brethren be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example." Another is I Corinthians 4:16: "Wherefore I beeseech you, be ye followers of me." And finally, I Cor. 11:1: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." A careful study of these verses and particularly of the Greek words rendered as "followers" reveals that Paul was simply exhorting his readers to imitate his example as a Christian and a missionary. He was in no way suggesting that individuals be followers of him in the sense of following him exclusively as a leader. Such would have been directly contrary to his expression at I Cor. 1:12 &amp; 13: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" Here we find Paul warning against just such tendencies as are evident in The Bible Speaks.



Furthermore, at I John 2:27 we read: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." So, while this verse is not ruling out the need of teachers in the Body of Christ, it is ad­monishing against looking to any particular man as teacher, since the Holy Spirit is the believers' teacher and guide in spiritual matters. Christ is the one mediator between God and man, without the need of an­other man in a position of mediatorship. When every part of the body of Christ is in its set place, each is able to receive from Christ directly, so that the body increases and edifies itself in love. In John 15 Jesus is the true vine, the whole vine. Every branch or believer is related to him directly, and receives its flow of His life directly, not through some other branch.

Of course we have pastor-teachers in the Church today as part of the variety of ministries to the body. To reject these ministries would be to deliberately reject the loving and wise provision of the Head of the Church who gives these gifts. On the other hand, though, to suggest that a Christian must submit to a human shepherd for leading and guidance is going to the opposite extreme and denies the Bible's teaching about the believers' direct access to God. Hebrews 4:14-16.

In mid-1980 The Bible Speaks released a 43 page booklet entitled The Bible Speaks Goes on Record. The introduction to this work states the inten­tion of clarifying certain aspects of the beliefs and practices of The Bible Speaks out of the desire to establish a mutually beneficial working relationship with the entire body of Christ. The introduction concludes with this statement: "It is in the spirit of goodwill and reconciliation that we offer this paper." The report goes on to present an essentially orthodox Statement of Faith, The Bible Speaks' basic doctrinal beliefs, followed by an explanation of the Hermeneutic Rules (the method of inter­pretation of Scripture) followed by The Bible Speaks. Then follow elab­orations upon several of the areas of Bible Speaks' teachings which have contributed to concern among other Christians and former members of The Bible Speaks: The Question of Spiritual Authority, The Question of Apostles, of Order, Honor and Commitment, The Question of Growth, of Marriage and Divorce, and finally, a glossary of terms peculiar to The Bible Speaks, and not commonly used outside of that movement.



Most of what is stated in these areas is quite orthodox, and were it not for knowledge of what was clearly taught in the tapes and periodicals cited previously, the casual reader would likely arrive at the conclusion that the problems had arisen out of a misunderstanding of what had been taught and that all that was needed was a clarification of terms.



In several areas, however, what is expressed in The Bible Speaks Goes on Record is a distinct departure from what had previously been taught. However, most of the major problems have been ones of attitude among Bible Speaks adherents: Their attitude toward The Bible Speaks Ministry as opposed to other Christian ministries, their view of The Bible Speaks' and Carl Stevens' authority, their attitude toward the person of Carl Stevens as God's man. It is perhaps easier to change one's position in writing than it is to change one's inner attitude. While positive changes are being observed in certain areas, such as a willingness on the part of The Bible Speaks to work shoulder to shoulder with outside ministries now, there are other important areas where change is not yet as overtly manifest.



One example would be in the view of Carl Stevens as an Apostle. We discussed earlier some of the implications the use of this term has carried in the minds of Bible Speaks adherents, as fostered by Stevens' statements about himself. While The Bible Speaks no longer recommends the use of the term Apostle when speaking of Carl Stevens or other Bible Speaks pastors, our research in contact with Bible Speaks adherents reveals that while the term Apostle may not be as frequently used, the attitude of his followers remains essentially unchanged. Whether this is simply a carry-over from before the teachings were changed, or whether it is still encouraged by Bible Speaks teachings is a question we cannot answer at this time, but we would urge those who come in contact with the Bible Speaks ministry to be on guard against viewing Carl Stevens any differently from any other Christian pastor with a gift in the area of leadership.

Another area where change has been expressed is with regard to Stevens&Acirc;’ anointed teachings. Statements previously cited clearly conveyed the impression that all of Stevens messages would have the Holy Spirit's anointing, that he conveyed revelations from Jesus Christ, and that these revelations should not be questioned. However, in The Bible Speaks Goes on Record we are now told: "In speaking of the anointing, the words are merely men's words, but the Hold Spirit is especially present to help our human infirmity in conveying the best sense or mean­ing."



We are further told: "It is impossible for God to be present in that which is untrue or unbiblical, it is impossible that false and un­scriptural teaching be anointed teaching at the same time." A well-balanced explanation is then given, which, in light of certain of Stevens teachings which we have heard would enable most Christians to readily dismiss the thought that all of his messages are anointed. While much of what is taught is clearly scriptural and perhaps could properly be termed anointed teaching, there remains the need for discernment by listeners. The Bible Speaks Goes on Record goes on to clarify the mean­ing of the word "revelation" as they now use it. To most Christians "revelation" is a revealing, by God, of something previously unknown, as is the case with the writings of many of the early apostles. "Illumination" on the other hand, refers to the making clear or illuminating of an already revealed scriptural truth. We are now informed that when The Bible Speaks uses the term revelation what is really meant is illumina­tion; that "when we speak of receiving revelation we would do better to use the words illumination or enlightenment for what is truly meant." Although the term illumination doesn't really seem to fit in the context of the passages previously cited, we would do well to keep The Bible Speaks' definition of "revelation" in mind for the future.

The Bible Speaks also uses some special terminology which would be for­eign to many Christians outside of that body: Terms such as one's ver­tical, one's horizontal, going through the cross, being hid in the body, keeping a single eye, and others. Related to such peculiar terminology are some additional areas of possibly questionable doctrine, but which have a lesser significance than the divisive attitudes already discussed. With regard to the attitudes of his followers toward Stevens, and their view of that particular ministry, there may well be members of the Bible Speaks who do not hold to these same attitudes which we have found to be fairly common.



Nonetheless, in spite of the tremendous amounts of good accomplished through the ministry, the number of people who have been hurt, even if indirectly by the ministry, including the dissolution of some Christian marriages, has been sufficient to move us to present this report on some of what we and other research ministries see as potential problem areas within The Bible Speaks. This report is not intended to condemn The Bible Speaks, nor to be judgmental in any way, but rather to be cautionary,...to express warning to those in and entering the Bible Speaks, that they might be alerted to those areas which many respected Christians see as aberrational toward Biblical Christianity.



Perhaps as Christians we should realize that such teachings and tendencies as we find in The Bible Speaks in the areas of authority and submission have indeed grown out of real need. In the midst of a permissive society people do need authority. But it is our task to point them to the basic authority of God's Word. Then we can point them to Paul's admonition that they learn to know those who labor among us, and esteem them in love for their work's sake (I They. 5:12). In our impersonal society, people do need the kind of close fellowship demonstrated in The Bible Speaks. Ways of meeting this need can vary with the circumstances. But the kind of division seen in the Corinthian church, bayed on building a following for a human leader, must be avoided.


In today's complex society people do need teaching and training. But more is needed than one person or a local church can provide. The Bible calls for a plurality of ministry and gifts within the local church (II Cor. 12).


Above all, we must recognize that the sin of causing division in the church is a most serious offense, as suggested by Romans 16:17 &amp; 18. In light of the many divisive tendencies within the Bible Speaks movement we would urge caution on the part of those involved with the group, and those contemplating membership. This is not to even suggest that the adherents to the Bible Speaks' teachings are not Christians. But in the urgency of the times in which we live, the unity of the larger body is highly important if we are to accomplish the mission of the church. It is our earnest prayer that the body of Christ will not have to apply the admonition of Romans 16: 17 &amp; 18, cited in the first paragraph of this report, to The Bible Speaks ministry, but rather that teachings and attitudes within that body will be adjusted in such a way as to permit the entire body of Christ to function as one harmonious whole.



Finally, Jesus Christ must be kept central. He alone is the great Shepherd of the Sheep. The only covenant we need is the one sealed with His blood. The only covering we need comes through the blood atonement, something Jesus did once and for all - something that is available only through Him.

************************************************** ******************
We welcome a point-by-point response from the leaders of Greater Grace World Outreach...

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Prior to the above letter and personal postings above there are some great resources recommended--I hope they were not missed--especially the books by Douglas and Nancy Wilson.

This is a new one, I haven't read it yet but I am sure that as soon as the better half finds out it exists, we're getting a copy!

PRAISE HER IN THE GATES: The Calling of Christian Motherhood
by Nancy Wilson

Give her the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates (Proverbs 31:31).

For a Christian, motherhood is the subtle art of building a house in grace—The wise woman builds her house, but the foolish pulls it down with her hands (Prov. 14:1). Each day’s work is significant, for it contributes toward the long-term plan. Each nail helps a house stand in a storm. But motherhood isn’t a simple formula. Building a home—childbirth, education, discipline—requires holy joy and a love of beauty. The mother who fears God does not fear the future.


Here is a link to Canon Press's site--check out the catalog:

Canon Press (http://www.canonpress.org/index.html)

Jim Faucett (somebonus@yahoo.com)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">Most folks have figured out that I have had quite a journey from my TBS roots to where I am now, and the journey continues. I did, and still do read a lot. This is a great publishing house which sends out a wonderful free catalog--visit the site and fill out the request online and they'll send you one. You may not agree with the theology--but you will be challenged to think and use the great mind God gave you.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">P&amp;R Publishing company is dedicated to publishing excellent books that promote biblical understanding and godly living as summarized in The Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms. Titles on our list range from academic works advancing biblical and theological scholarship to popular books designed to help lay readers grow in Christian thought and service. Our mission is to serve Christ and his church by producing clear, engaging, fresh, and insightful applications of Reformed theology to life.

The subject areas that are currently in our catalog include: Christian Living - Counseling - Theology - Apologetics - Study Aids - Christian Issues and Ethics - Resources for Churches - Resources for Youth - Resources for Women

Founded in 1930 by Samuel G. Craig and J. Gresham Machen, P&amp;R has approximately 250 titles in print, with an average of 30 new titles per year.</FONT>

P&amp;R Publishing (http://www.prpbooks.com/index.html?session=52a19969aa09749225a8e388be69558 a)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">The Pocket Testament League visited the Northeast School of the Bible in the early 70s. I joined recently and they provide a great supply of tools for witness--free! They will of course accept your generous donation. Visit their site, send off for their stuff:</FONT>

The Pocket Testament League (http://www.readcarryshare.org/)

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Hi Jim,
Have you read the GGWO booklet"Just let God Love you"? If you have what do you think? Thanks for these sites, I love to read and gain knowledge on a subject that I do not know too much about.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.119)]

Jim, I'm just curious as to how your beliefs concerning predestination influence your views on evangelism. Bob

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Well, naturally you would not be compelled to soulwin, because you don't believe in man's free will having a part in his salvation, so why go out and present him with the gospel? God has already predestined certain ones to be saved and no one can change God's will, so we can just sit back and relax. What a clever plan for Satan to keep Christians from spreading the gospel.

Jim, how do you explain John 5:39, 40,
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. BUT YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO COME TO ME THAT YOU MAY HAVE LIFE".
If we have no choice then that verse is meaningless.
If we have no choice, it puts the responsibility on God for us going to hell and not us. Because we can't control where we go. God has taken our choice out of the way, so God is responsible.
Of course we have a choice and that is why soulwinning is important

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Bob,
I don't believe man's will is the determining factor in that I believe that dead means just that. Dead. In sins and trespasses. That is what makes the preaching of the gospel so glorious because, Nic, it is the means which God ordains to enact the miracle of the new birth--hence we as preaching the Gospel are colaborers with Christ. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God! Of course we are not willing! We are just about as willing as Lazurus being dead four days and stinking! But when the Word empowered through the Spirit regenerates us we are willing! And we come to Christ. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Php.2:13. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ Php.1:6.</FONT>

Want a great picture of the new birth in Scripture? Here it is in Ezekiel 37:
And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

<FONT COLOR="119911">Nic, you might be surprised that Calvinistic winners of souls have had a great impact on this country and the rest of the world. George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards were Calvinists. David Brainerd was a Calvinist. Horatius Bonar who wrote "Words to Winners of Souls" was a Calvinist. C.H. Spurgeon was a Calvinist. J.I. Packer who wrote "Evangelism and The Sovereignty of God," and "Knowing God," is a Calvinist. John Stott who wrote "Basic Christianity" is a Calvinist. Augustus Toplady who wrote "Rock of Ages" John Fawcett (an ancestor) author of "Blest Be the Tie the Binds," were Calvinists.

Nic, I believe in the Gospel! I believe that if you are a Christian you will want to make disciples, not just get people to 'make a decision for Jesus.' Why in the world if we are called to speak the word in season and out of season would we sit back and 'relax' as you put it. It is always very easy to caricature views with which we disagree--and that is what this is--'Calvinists believe that God has already predestined certain ones to be saved and no one can change God's will.' I believe that God chose a time for three women to knock at my door at exactly the time when he had prepared my heart to listen to them. As they spoke the word, the Holy Spirit began to do his work. I begged for Christ to be my Savior. Did I make a decision to come to Christ? Of course I did, I had been drawn, and everyone who is drawn comes! No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 and All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37. We know that God does not 'cancel himself out' when he speaks--he does not say a thing in one place to be repugnant to what he has said in another.</FONT>

<U>Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power</U>, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. Ps.110.3

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Oh, Nic, didn't you say you had a MacArthur Study Bible? MacArthur is a Calvinist.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

This is from the Westminster Confession on Free Will:

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">CHAP. IX. - Of Free-Will.

1. God hath endued the <U>will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil</U>.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

3. Man, <U>by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto</U>.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, <U>enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil</U>.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I have indeed read the GG booklet "Just Let God Love You." The intentions of the book are to exalt God's love for sinners, and that is a good thing. There are loads of good sentiments in the booklet which is, however, riddled with antinomianism as is much of Carl Stevens's teachings. It is also Arminian and here's a good example:

"In His foreknowledge, God knew that with
my volition I would choose to believe on His Son.
I was justified, sanctified, and glorified because
God was always for me. And He rests in His
love toward me because my sins were paid for
by the Son."

This robs the word foreknowledge of its biblical meaning which becomes abundantly clear in Acts 2:23--Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. The verse gives one of the clearest statements of God's plan and human responsibility in all of scripture--God planned to accomplish his work through the acts of sinful men. Foreknowledge is not viewing the end of the movie first--it is producing and directing the whole movie.


This is an example of the 'precise doctrine' espoused:

"There is an order to God’s love. I am not to
love others first; I am to love myself first. I cannot even love God unless I love myself. I must
let God love me. That’s the way it goes. First, I
let God love me. Second, I love myself. Third, I
love God and, finally, I am very free to love you
and everyone else—even my enemies."

Yes it is true that God first loved us. We are indeed commanded to love others as ourselves. But a command to love ourselves is NOT implicit here. Nobody doesn't 'love' themselves. "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it..." We are full of ourselves. Really good guilt is not a problem in our 21st century world. Guilt is what the good law produces. Through it we see our need for Christ, who does indeed love us first--but our response is to love God, not ourselves. Self love is never exalted in scripture.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Also from the Westminster Confession of Faith:

CHAP. III. - Of God's Eternal Decree.

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed any thing <U>because He foresaw it as future</U>, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Jim,
I did not mean to caricature your views, but I suppose in light of what you said, I did do that, and I apologize. That really was how I saw it, though, and it seemed logical that you would not soulwin if God had everything predestined.
I find this whole subject very conflicting and disturbing. When I read what you wrote, it does make sense. But then when I read something from the other point of view it makes sense also. So when you say, "We know that God does not 'cancel himself out' when he speaks--he does not say a thing in one place to be repugnant to what he has said in another." I have to say that it does indeed seem that God is saying different things in different verses. And a lot of verses do seem to say our free will is involved. And the strongest point against what you are saying is that God would actually predestine some for hell, which is not the nature He reveals about Himself all through the Bible as a God of love.

Yes, I have a MacArthur study Bible, and it is true that he agrees with what you say in some of his notes on Romans 9. BUT then in his notes on verses 30-32 he says, "Paul reminded his readers that although God chooses some to receive His mercy, those who receive His judgement do so not because of something God has done to them, but because of their unwillingness to believe the gospel(see I Thess 2:10). Sinners are condemned for their personal sin-the supreme sin being rejection of God and Christ(see John 8:21-24)"

So you see even here seems to be a conflicting message. How can dead men be UNWILLING to believe the gospel, or REJECT God and Christ? How can they be blamed for that if they are dead?

So you see why I feel this is not a clear cut issue.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Jim, will you back up each of the 5 points of the Westminster Confession about Free Will please? Each in order, just the scripture reference? Thank you.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

There is not a single stray molecule out there pinging around...In him we live and move and have our being.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Scripture Proofs For the Westminster Confession of Faith (http://www.epc.org.au/wcf/chap9.html)

Better the Westminster Divines themselves...Click on the little letters after each point.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Thank you.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

MacArthur is addressing a doctrine called reprobation, Nic. We would all be in that condition if God left us there. All of our wills are inclined away from God and toward self and sin--we are by nature haters of God. We are naturally unwilling. That is what sin does to us--that is what being separated from God is like. We are dead because in Adam all die.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.162.119)]

I tend to feel pretty much the way Nic does here. There are times I think he really gets the better of you, Jim. But I also realize that the conditioning we went through at the Speaks runs deep. I don't believe the blood on the hands thing applies to reaching the lost, but to warning those in the House; which is one of the things going on on this board. My own emphasis is on the discipleship end of things, working with those who already believe. It's not that I don't believe in reaching out to the lost. I just don't think that part of it is every believer's job. And I have extensively tried what I don't consider myself led to - hundreds of blitzes. All of heaven rejoices at the repentance of one sinner; be he/she already of the Household or not. My focus is on the expression of Christ, on finding His character developing in the Church. If we of the Household truly love one another, then others will know that we are His disciples. If He is lifted up then men will be drawn. It is God that draws them. We need to be continually drawn ourselves.

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

"It's not that I don't believe in reaching out to the lost. I just don't think that part of it is every believer's job."

Bob, you may agree with me on some things, but we could not disagree more on this one. I believe Jesus' last words in Acts 1:8 to be witnesses to Him were for every single believer. That is the only reason the church is still on earth. Otherwise we could go to heaven right now and be with the Lord, we wouldn't need to be discipled down here. We are still here because people are lost

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I know this will sound really strange coming from me, but you both are making good points. Nic, I believe in reaching out to my neighbors--going out with the purpose to expose them to the gospel. The scattering of the seed needs to happen, God gives the increase. The command however, is not to go and get decisions--it is to make disciples. We are still on earth to glorify God and enjoy him--we are the kingdom of God as the visible church.

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

Jim,
That is true, but every single believer is still called to reach out to the lost. Some are not called just to edify within the church. That's what I disagreed with Bob about.
BTW, don't let this go to your head, but I also disagree with him that I sometimes "get the better of you". I have yet to see that happen. Maybe someday....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Good Morning gentlemen,
I just wanted to say I have been enjoying reading your points of view. JF so far is the leader if this was a debate, and that is only because he adds scripture to back his points. I also believe that we are here as disciples to plant seeds, any decision after that is between that person and Christ. Pastor Stevens is always going on about how many souls have been won through GGWO. He almost acts like it is a contest, when in reality it has nothing to do with him. I know you didn't ask for my point of view, but I am fascinated in learning more about the word. Have a blessed day and remember you are teaching some individuals things they have never learned http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif THANK YOU ALL

[Maria T (141.157.76.146)]

OK guys...I have some questions for you...JF, Bob and Nic. Before I ask them, I want you to know up front I do not want to instigate a war doctrinally at any time, I am not posting what I am about to post to slander anyone, I just think we've covered a ton of people's points of view on this particular thread (which was of great interest, Jim, thank you for what you've taken the time to post, its definately been food for thought even though I don't agree with a lot of it...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

So...read on down guys. I am posting the Address to the Clergy, #1-#30 part of Section One, by William Law. I would love to hear your opinions.

Thanks in advance.
Maria T

[Maria T (141.157.76.146)]

An Address to the Clergy -- by WILLIAM LAW



[Addr-1] The Reason of my humbly and affectionately addressing this Discourse to the Clergy, is not because it treats of Things not of common concern to all Christians, but chiefly to invite and induce them, as far as I can, to the serious Perusal of it; and because whatever is essential to Christian Salvation, if either neglected, overlooked, or mistaken by them, is of the saddest Consequence both to themselves and the Churches in which they minister.— I say essential to Salvation, for I would not turn my own Thoughts, or call the attention of Christians, to any Thing but the one Thing needful, the one Thing essential and only available to our Rising out of our fallen State, and becoming, as we were at our Creation, an holy Offspring of God, and real Partakers of the Divine Nature.



[Addr-2] If it be asked, What this one Thing is? It is the SPIRIT OF GOD brought again to his FIRST POWER OF LIFE IN US. Nothing else is wanted by us, nothing else intended for us, by the Law, the Prophets, and the Gospel. Nothing else is, or can be effectual, to the making sinful man become again a godly Creature.



[Addr-3] Everything else, be it what it will, however glorious and Divine in outward Appearance, every Thing that Angels, Men, Churches, or Reformations, can do for us, is dead and helpless, but so far as it is the immediate work of the Spirit of God breathing and living in it.

[Addr-4] All Scripture bears full witness to this Truth, and the End and Design of all that is written, is only to call us back from the Spirit of Satan, the Flesh, and the World, to be again under full Dependence upon, and Obedience to the Spirit of God, who out of free Love and Thirst after our Souls, seeks to have his first Power of Life in us. When this is done, all is done that the Scripture can do for us. —Read what Chapter, or Doctrine of Scripture you will, be ever so delighted with it, it will leave you as poor, as empty and unreformed as it found you, unless it be a Delight that proceeds from, and has turned you wholly and solely to the Spirit of God, and strengthened your Union with and Dependence upon Him. For Love and Delight in matters of Scriptures, whilst it is only a Delight that is merely human, however Specious and Saintlike it may appear, is but the Self-love of fallen Adam, and can have no better a Nature, till it proceeds from the Inspiration of God, quickening his own Life and Nature within us, which alone can have or give forth a godly Love. For if it be an immutable Truth, that "no man can call Jesus, Lord, but by the Holy Ghost," it must be a Truth equally immutable, that no one can have any one Christ-like Temper or Power of Goodness but so far, and in such Degree, as he is immediately led and governed by the Holy Spirit.

[Addr-5] The Grounds and Reasons of which are as follow.



[Addr-6] All possible Goodness that either can be named, or is nameless, was in God from all Eternity, and must to all Eternity be inseparable from him; it can be nowhere but where God is. As therefore before God created anything, it was certainly true that there was but one that was good, so it is just the same Truth, after God has created innumerable Hosts of blessed and holy and heavenly Beings, that there is but one that is good, and that is God.

[Addr-7] All that can be called Goodness, Holiness, Divine Tempers, heavenly Affections, &amp;c., in the Creatures, are no more their own, or the Growth of their created Powers, than they were their own before they were created. But all that is called Divine Goodness and Virtue in the Creature is nothing else, but the one Goodness of God manifesting a Birth and Discovery of itself in the Creature, according as its created Nature is fitted to receive it. This is the unalterable State between God and the Creature. Goodness for ever and ever can only belong to God, as essential to him and inseparable from him, as his own Unity.

[Addr-8] God could not make the Creature to be great and glorious in itself; this is as impossible, as for God to create Beings into a State of Independence on himself. "The Heavens," saith David, "declare the Glory of God"; and no Creature, any more than the Heavens, can declare any other Glory but that of God. And as well might it be said, that the Firmament shows forth its own Handy Work, as that a holy Divine or heavenly Creature shows forth its own natural Power.

[Addr-9] But now, if all that is Divine, great, glorious, and happy, in the Spirits, Tempers, Operations, and Enjoyments of the Creature, is only so much of the Greatness, Glory, Majesty, and Blessedness of God, dwelling in it, and giving forth various Births of his own triune Life, Light, and Love, in and through the manifold Forms and capacities of the Creature to receive them, then we may infallibly see the true Ground and Nature of all true Religion, and when and how we may be said to fulfill all our Religious Duty to God. For the Creature's true Religion, is its rendering to God all that is God's, it is its true continual Acknowledging all that which it is, and has, and enjoys, in and from God. This is the one true Religion of all intelligent Creatures, whether in Heaven, or on Earth; for as they all have but one and the same Relation to God, so though ever so different in their several Births, States or Offices, they all have but one and the same true Religion, or right Behavior towards God. Now the one Relation, which is the Ground of all true Religion, and is one and the same between God and all intelligent Creatures, is this, it is a total unalterable Dependence upon God, an immediate continual receiving of every Kind, and Degree of Goodness, Blessing and Happiness, that ever was, or can be found in them, from God alone. The highest Angel has nothing of its own that it can offer unto God, no more Light, Love, Purity, Perfection, and glorious Hallelujahs, that spring from itself, or its own Powers, than the poorest Creature upon Earth. Could the Angel see a Spark of Wisdom, Goodness, or Excellence, as coming from, or belonging to itself, its Place in Heaven would be lost, as sure as Lucifer lost his. But they are ever-abiding Flames of Pure Love, always ascending up to and uniting with God, for this Reason, because the Wisdom, the Power, the Glory, the Majesty, the Love, and Goodness of God alone, is all that they see, and feel, and know, either within or without themselves. —Songs of Praise to their heavenly Father are their ravishing Delight, because they see, and know, and feel, that it is the Breath and Spirit of their Heavenly Father that sings and rejoices in them. Their Adoration in Spirit and in Truth never ceases, because they never cease to acknowledge the ALL of God; —the ALL of God in the whole Creation. This is the one Religion of Heaven, and nothing else is the Truth of Religion on Earth.

[Addr-10] The Matter therefore plainly comes to this, Nothing can do, or be, the Good of Religion to the intelligent Creature, but the Power and Presence of God really and essentially living and working in it. But if this be the unchangeable nature of that Goodness and Blessedness which is to be had from our Religion, then of all Necessity, the Creature must have all its Religious Goodness as wholly and solely from God's immediate Operation, as it had its first Goodness at its Creation. And it is the same impossibility for the Creature to help itself to that which is good and blessed in Religion, by any Contrivance, Reasonings, or Workings of its own Natural Powers, as to create itself. For the Creature, after its Creation, can no more take any Thing to itself that belongs to God, than it could take it, before it was created. And if Truth forces us to hold, that the Natural Powers of the Creature could only come from the one Power of God, the same Truth should surely more force us to confess, that That which comforts, that which enlightens, that which blesses, which gives Peace, Joy, Goodness, and Rest to its natural Powers, can be had in no other way, nor by any other Thing, but from God's immediate holy Operation found in it.

[Addr-11] Now the Reason why no Work of Religion, but that which is begun, continued, and carried on by the Living Operation of God in the creature, can have any Truth, Goodness, or Divine Blessing in it, is because nothing can in Truth seek God, but that which comes from God. Nothing can in Truth find God as its Good, but that which has the Nature of God living in it; like can only rejoice in Like; and therefore no religious Service of the Creature can have any Truth, Goodness, or Blessing in it, but that which is done in the Creature, in, and through, and by a Principle and Power of the Divine Nature begotten and breathing forth in it all holy Tempers, Affections, and Adorations.

[Addr-12] All true Religion is, or brings forth, an essential Union and Communion of the Spirit of the Creature with the Spirit of the Creator: God in it, and it in God, one Life, one Light, one Love. The Spirit of God first gives, or sows the Seed of Divine Union in the Soul of every Man; and Religion is That by which it is quickened, raised, and brought forth to a Fullness and Growth of a Life in God.— Take a Similitude of this, as follows.— The Beginning, or Seed of animal Breath, must first be born in the Creature from the Spirit of this World, and then Respiration, so long as it lasts, keeps up an essential Union of the animal Life with the Breath or Spirit of this World. In like manner, Divine Faith, Hope, Love, and Resignation to God, are in the religious Life its acts of Respiration, which, so long as they are true, unite God and the Creature in the same living and essential manner, as animal Respiration unites the Breath of the Animal with the Breath of this World.

[Addr-13] Now as no Animal could begin to respire, or unite with the Breath of this World, but because it has its Beginning to breathe begotten in it from the Air of this World, so it is equally certain, that no Creature, Angel or Man, could begin to be religious, or breathe forth the Divine Affections of Faith, Love, and Desire towards God, but because a Living Seed of these Divine Affections was by the Spirit of God first begotten in it.— And as a Tree or Plant can only grow and fructify by the same Power that first gave Birth to the Seed, so Faith, and Hope, and Love towards God, can only grow and fructify by the same Power, that begot the first Seed of them in the Soul. Therefore Divine immediate Inspiration and Divine Religion are inseparable in the Nature of the Thing.

[Addr-14] Take away Inspiration, or suppose it to cease, and then no Religious acts or Affections can give forth any Thing that is godly or Divine. For the Creature can offer, or return Nothing to God, but That which it has first received from him; therefore, if it is to offer and send up to God Affections and Aspirations that are Divine and godly, it must of all necessity have the Divine and godly Nature living and breathing in it.— Can any Thing reflect Light, before it has received it? Or any other Light, than that which it has received? Can any Creature breathe forth earthly, or diabolical Affections, before it is possessed of an earthly, or diabolical Nature? Yet this is as possible, as for any Creature to have Divine Affections rising up and dwelling in it, either before, or any further, than as it has or partakes of the Divine Nature dwelling and operating in it.

[Addr-15] A religious Faith that is uninspired, a Hope, or Love that proceeds not from the immediate Working of the Divine Nature within us, can no more do any Divine Good to our Souls, or unite them with the Goodness of God, than an Hunger after earthly Food can feed us with the immortal Bread of Heaven.— All that the natural or uninspired Man does, or can do in the Church, has no more of the Truth or Power of Divine Worship in it, than that which he does in the Field, or Shop, through a Desire of Riches.— And the Reason is, because all the Acts of the Natural Man, whether relating to Matters of Religion or the World, must be equally Selfish, and there is no Possibility of their being otherwise. For Self-love, Self-esteem, Self-seeking, and Living wholly to Self, are as strictly the Whole of all that is or possibly can be in the Natural Man, as in the Natural Beast; the one can no more be better, or act above this Nature, than the other. Neither can any Creature be in a better, or higher State than this, till something Supernatural is found in it; and this Supernatural something, called in scripture the WORD, or SPIRIT, or INSPIRATION of God, is that alone from which man can have the first Good Thought about God, or the least Power of having more heavenly Desires in his Spirit, than he has in his Flesh.

[Addr-16] A Religion that is not wholly built upon this Supernatural Ground, but solely stands upon the Powers, Reasonings, and Conclusions of the Natural uninspired Man, has not so much as the Shadow of true Religion in it, but is a mere Nothing, in the same Sense, as an Idol is said to be Nothing, because the Idol has nothing of That in it which is pretended by it. For the Work of Religion has no Divine Good in it, but as it brings forth, and keeps up essential Union of the Spirit of Man with the Spirit of God; which essential Union cannot be made, but through Love on both sides, nor by Love, but where the Love that works on both sides is of the same Nature.

[Addr-17] No Man therefore can reach God with his Love, or have Union with him by it, but he who is inspired with that one same Spirit of Love, with which God loved himself from all Eternity, and before there was any Creature. Infinite Hosts of new created Heavenly Beings can begin no new Kind of Love of God, nor have the least Power of beginning to Love him at all, but so far as his own Holy Spirit of Love, wherewith he hath from all Eternity loved himself, is brought to Life in them. This Love, that was then in God alone, can be the only Love in Creatures that can draw them to God; they can have no Power of cleaving to him, of willing that which He wills, or adoring the Divine Nature, but by partaking of that eternal Spirit of Love; and therefore the continual immediate Inspiration or Operation of the Holy Spirit, is the one only possible Ground of our continually loving God. And of this inspired Love, and no other, it is that St. John says, "He that dwelleth in Love, dwelleth in God." Suppose it to be any other Love, brought forth by any other Thing but the Spirit of God breathing his own Love in us, and then it cannot be true, that he who dwells in such Love, dwells in God.

[Addr-18] Divine Inspiration was essential to man's first created State. The Spirit of the triune God, breathed into, or brought to Life in him, was that alone which made him a holy Creature in the Image and Likeness of God. To have no other Mover, to live under no other Guide or Leader, but the Spirit, was that which constituted all the Holiness which the first man could have from God. Had he not been thus at the first, God in him and he in God, brought into the World as a true offspring and real Birth of the Holy Spirit, no Dispensation of God to fallen man would have directed him to the Holy Spirit, or ever have made mention of his Inspiration in Man. For fallen Man could be directed to nothing as his Good, but that which he had, and was his Good, before he fell. And had not the Holy Spirit been his first Life, in and by which he lived, no inspired Prophets among the Sons of fallen Adam had ever been heard of, or any holy men speaking as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. For the Thing would have been impossible, no fallen Man could have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, but because the first Life of Man was a true and real Birth of it; and also because every fallen Man had, by the Mercy and free Grace of God, a secret Remains of his first Life preserved in him, though hidden, or rather swallowed up by Flesh and Blood; which Secret Remains, signified and assured to Adam by the name of a Bruiser of the Serpent, or Seed of the woman, was his only capacity to be called and quickened again into his first Life, by new Breathings of the Holy Spirit in him.

[Addr-19] Hence it plainly appears that the Gospel State could not be God's last Dispensation, or the finishing of Man's Redemption, unless its whole Work was a Work of the Spirit of God in the Spirit of Man; that is, unless without all Veils Types, and Shadows, it brought the Thing itself, or the Substance of all former Types and Shadows, into real Enjoyment, so as to be possessed by Man in Spirit, and in Truth. Now the Thing itself, and for the sake of which all God's Dispensations have been, is that first Life of God which was essentially born in the Soul of the first Man, Adam, and to which he died. But now, if the Gospel Dispensation comes at the End of all Types and Shadows, to bring forth again in Man a true and full Birth of that Holy Spirit which he had at first, then it must be plain, that the work of this Dispensation must be solely and immediately the Work of the Holy Spirit. For if Man could no other possible way have had a holy Nature and Spirit at first, but as an Offspring or Birth of the Holy Spirit at his Creation, it is certain from the Nature of the Thing, that fallen Man, dead to his first holy Nature, can have that same holy Nature again no other way, but solely by the Operation of that same Holy Spirit, from the Breath of which he had at first a holy Nature and Life in God. Therefore immediate Inspiration is as necessary to make fallen Man alive again unto God, as it was to make Man at first a Living Soul after the Image and in the Likeness of God. And Continual Inspiration is as necessary, as Man's Continuance in his redeemed State. For this is a certain Truth, that That alone which begins, or gives Life, must of all Necessity be the only Continuance or Preservation of Life. The second Step can only be taken by That which gave Power to take the first.— No Life can continue in the Goodness of its first created, or redeemed State, but by its continuing under the Influence of, and working with and by that Powerful Root, or Spirit, which at first created, or redeemed it. Every Branch of the Tree, though ever so richly brought forth, must wither and die, as soon as it ceases to have continual Union with, and Virtue from that Root, which first brought it forth. And to this Truth, as absolutely grounded in the Nature of the Thing, our Lord appeals as a Proof and full Illustration of the Necessity of his immediate indwelling, Breathing, and Operating in the redeemed Soul of Man, saying, "I am the Vine, ye are the Branches, as the Branch cannot bear fruit of itself, no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much Fruit. If a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a withered Branch; for without me, ye can do Nothing," John xv.

[Addr-20] Now from these Words let this conclusion be here drawn, viz. that therefore to turn to Christ as a Light within us, to expect life from nothing but his holy Birth raised within us, to give ourselves up wholly and solely to the immediate continual Influx and Operation of his Holy Spirit, depending wholly upon it for every Kind and Degree of Goodness and Holiness that we want, or can receive, is and can be Nothing else, but proud, rank Enthusiasm.

[Addr-21] Now as infinitely absurd as this conclusion is, no one that condemns continual immediate Inspiration as gross Enthusiasm, can possibly do it with less absurdity, or show himself a Wiser Man, or better Reasoner, than he that concludes, that Because without Christ we can do Nothing, therefore we ought not to believe, expect, wait for, and depend upon his continual immediate operation in every Thing that we do, or would do well.— As to the Pride charged upon this pretended Enthusiasm, it is the same absurdity. Christ says, "without me ye can do Nothing," the same as if he had said, As to yourselves, and all that can be called your own, you are mere helpless Sin and Misery, and Nothing that is good, can come from you, but as it is done by the continual immediate Breathing and Inspiration of another Spirit, given by God to over-rule your own, to save and deliver you from all your own Goodness, your own Wisdom, and Learning which always were, and always will be, as corrupt and impure, as earthly and sensual, as your own Flesh and Blood. Now is there any selfish Creaturely Pride, in fully believing this to be true, and in acting in full Conformity to it? If so, then he that confesses he neither has, nor ever can have a single Farthing, but as it is freely given him from Charity, thereby declares himself to be a Purse-proud vain Boaster of his own Wealth. Such is the Spiritual Pride of him, who fully acknowledges that he neither has, nor can have the least Spark or breathing after Goodness, but what is freely kindled, or breathed into him by the Spirit of God. Again, if it is Spiritual Pride to believe, that Nothing that we ever think, or say, or do, either in the Church, or our Closets, can have any truth of Goodness in it but that which is wrought solely and immediately by the Spirit of God in us, then it must be said, that in order to have religious Humility we must never forget to take some Share of our religious Virtues to ourselves, and not allow (as Christ hath said) that without Him we can do Nothing that is good. It must also be said, that St. Paul took too much upon him when he said, "the Life that I now live, is not mine, but Christ's that liveth in me."

[Addr-22] Behold a Pride, and a Humility, the one as good as the other, and both logically descended from a Wisdom, that confesses it comes not from above.

[Addr-23] The Necessity of a Continual Inspiration of the Spirit of God, both to begin the first, and continue every step of a Divine Life in Man, is a Truth to which every Life in Nature, as well as all Scripture, bears full Witness.— A natural Life, a bestial Life, a diabolical Life, can subsist no longer, than whilst they are immediately and continually under the working Power of that Root or Source, from which they Sprung. Thus it is with the Divine Life in Man, it can never be in him, but as a Growth of Life in and from God.— Hence it is, that Resisting the Spirit, Quenching the Spirit, Grieving the Spirit, is that alone which gives Birth and Growth to every Evil that reigns in the World, and leaves Men, and Churches, not only an easy, but a necessary prey to the Devil, the World, and the Flesh. And Nothing but Obedience to the Spirit, trusting to the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, praying with and for its continual Inspiration, can possibly keep either Men, or Churches, from being Sinners, or Idolators, in all that they do. For everything in the Life, or Religion of Man, that has not the Spirit of God for its Mover, Director, and End, be it what it will, is but earthly, sensual, or devilish.— The Truth and Perfection of the Gospel State could not show itself, till it became solely a Ministration of the Spirit, or a Kingdom in which the Holy Spirit of God had the doing of all that was done in it.— The Apostles, whilst Christ was with them in the Flesh, were instructed in heavenly Truths from his Mouth, and enabled to work Miracles in his Name, yet not qualified to know and teach the Mysteries of his Kingdom. After his Resurrection, he conversed with them forty Days, speaking to them of Things pertaining to the Kingdom of God; nay though he breathed on them, and said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost," &amp;c., yet this also would not do, they were still unable to preach, or bear Witness to the Truth, as it is in Jesus. And the Reason is, there was still a higher Dispensation to come, which stood in such an opening of the Divine Life in their Hearts, as could not be effected from an outward Instruction of Christ himself. For though He had sufficiently told his Disciples the Necessity of being born again of the Spirit, yet he left them unborn of it, till He came again in the Power of the Spirit. He breathed on them, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," yet that which was said and done was not the Thing itself, but only a Type or outward Signification of what they should receive, when He, being glorified, should come again in the Fullness and Power of the Spirit, breaking open the Deadness and Darkness of their Hearts with Light and Life from Heaven, which Light did, and alone could, open and verify in their Souls, all that he had said and promised to them whilst he was with them in the Flesh.— All this is expressly declared by Christ himself, saying unto them, "I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away"; therefore Christ taught them to believe the Want, and joyfully to expect the Coming of a higher and more blessed State, than that of his bodily Presence with them. For he adds, "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come"; therefore the Comfort and Blessing of Christ to his Followers could not be had, till something more was done to them, and they were brought into a higher State than they could be by his verbal Instruction of them. "But if I go away," says he, "I will send him unto you, and when the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all Truth; He shall glorify me" (that is, shall set up my Kingdom in its Glory, in the Power of the Spirit) "for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you: I said of mine, because all Things that the Father hath are mine," John xvi.

[Addr-24] Now when Christ had told them of the Necessity of an higher State than that they were in, and the Necessity of such a comforting illuminating Guide, as they could not have till his outward Teaching in human Language was changed into the Inspiration, and Operation of his Spirit in their Souls, He commands them, not to begin to bear Witness of him to the World, from what they did and could in an human Way know of him, his Birth his Life, Doctrines, Death, Sufferings, Resurrection, &amp;c., but to tarry at Jerusalem, till they were endued with Power from on high; saying unto them, "Ye shall receive Power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you. And then shall ye bear witness unto me, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and unto the utmost Part of the Earth."

[Addr-25] Here are two most important and fundamental Truths fully demonstrated, First, that the Truth and Perfection of the Gospel State could not take place, till Christ was glorified, and his Kingdom among Men made wholly and solely a continual immediate Ministration of the Spirit: Every Thing before this was but subservient for a Time, and preparatory to this last Dispensation, which could not have been the last, had it not carried Man above Types, Figures and Shadows, into the real Possession and Enjoyment of that which is the Spirit and Truth of a Divine Life. For the End is not come till it has found the Beginning; that is, the last dispensation of God to fallen Man cannot be come, till putting an end to the "Bondage of weak and beggarly Elements," Gal. iv.9, it brings Man to that dwelling in God, and God in him, which he had at the Beginning.

[Addr-26] Secondly, that as the Apostles could not, so no man, from their Time to the End of the World, can have any true and real Knowledge of the Spiritual Blessings of Christ's Redemption, or have a Divine Call, Capacity, or Fitness to preach, and bear Witness of them to the World, but solely by that Same Divine Spirit opening all the Mysteries of a Redeeming Christ in their inward Parts, as it did in the Apostles, Evangelists, and first Ministers of the Gospel.

[Addr-27] For why could not the Apostles, who had been Eye-Witnesses to all the whole Process of Christ, why could they not with their human Apprehension declare and testify the Truth of such Things, till they "were baptized with Fire, and born again of the Spirit"? It is because the Truth of such Things, or the mysteries of Christ's Process, as Knowable by Man, are Nothing else in themselves, but those very Things which are done by this heavenly Fire and Spirit of God in our Souls. Therefore to know the Mysteries of Christ's Redemption, and to know the Redeeming Work of God in our own Souls, is the same Thing; the one cannot be before, or without the other. Therefore Every Man, be he who he will, however able in all Kinds of human literature, must be an entire Stranger to all the Mysteries of Gospel Redemption, and can only talk about them as of any other Tale he has been told, till they are brought forth, verified, fulfilled, and witnessed to by That, which is found, felt and enjoyed of the whole Process of Christ in his Soul. For as Redemption is in its whole Nature an inward Spiritual Work, that works only in the altering, changing, and regenerating of the Life of the Soul, so it must be true, that Nothing but the inward State of the Soul can bear true Witness to the Redeeming Power of Christ. For as it wholly consists in altering That which is the most radical in the Soul, bringing forth a new Spiritual Death, and a new Spiritual Life, it must be true, that no one can know or believe the Mysteries of Christ's redeeming Power, by historically knowing, or rationally consenting to That which is said of him and them in Written or Spoken Words, but only and Solely by an inward experimental finding, and feeling the Operation of them, in that new Death, and new Life, both of which must be effected in the Soul of Man, or Christ is not, cannot be found, and Known by the Soul as its Salvation. It must also be equally true, that the redeemed State of the Soul, being in itself Nothing else but the Resurrection of a Divine and holy Life in it, must as necessarily from first to last be the Sole Work of the Breathing creating Spirit of God, as the first holy created State of the Soul was.—And all this, because the Mysteries of Christ's redeeming Power, which work and bring forth the renewed State of the Soul, are not creaturely, finite, outward Things, that may be found and enjoyed by verbal Descriptions, or formed Ideas of them, but are a Birth and Life, and Spiritual Operation, which as solely belongs to God alone, as his creating Power. For Nothing can redeem, but that same Power which created the Soul. Nothing can bring forth a good thought in it, but that which brought forth the Power of thinking. And of every Tendency towards Goodness, be it ever so small, that same may be truly affirmed of it, which St. Paul affirmed of his highest State, "yet not I, but Christ that liveth in me."

[Addr-28] But if the Belief of the Necessity and Certainty of immediate continual Divine Inspiration, in and for everything that can be holy and good in us, be (as its Accusers say) rank Enthusiasm, then He is the only sober orthodox Christian, who of many a good Thought and Action that proceeds from him, frankly says, in order to avoid Enthusiasm, My own Power, and not Christ's Spirit living and breathing in me, has done this for me. For if all that is good is not done by Christ, then Something that is good is done by myself. It is in vain to think, that there is a middle Way, and that rational Divines have found it out, as Dr. Warburton has done, who though denying immediate continual Inspiration, yet allows that the Spirit's "ordinary Influence occasionally assists the faithful." {Sermons, vol. i.}

[Addr-29] Now this middle Way has neither Scripture nor sense in it; for an occasional Influence or Concurrence is as absurd, as an occasional God, and necessarily Supposes such a God. For an occasional influence of the Spirit upon us supposes an occasional Absence of the Spirit from us. For there could be no such Thing, unless God was sometimes with us, and sometimes not, sometimes doing us good, as the inward God of our Life, and sometimes doing us no good at all, but leaving us to be good from ourselves. — Occasional Influence necessarily implies all this blasphemous Absurdity. Again, this middle way of an occasional Influence and Assistance necessarily supposes, that there is something of man's own that is good, or the Holy Spirit of God neither would, nor could assist or cooperate with it. But if there was any Thing good in Man for God to assist and cooperate with, besides the SEED of his own Divine Nature, or his own WORD of Life striving to bruise the Serpent's Nature within us, it could not be true, that there is only one that is good, and that is God. And were there any Goodness in Creatures, either in Heaven, or on Earth, but the one Goodness of the Divine Nature, living, working, manifesting itself in them, as its created Instruments, then good Creatures, both in Heaven and on Earth, would have something else to adore, besides, or along with God. For Goodness, be it where it will, is adorable for itself, and because it is Goodness; if therefore any Degree of it belonged to the Creature, it ought to have a share of that same Adoration that is paid to the Creator.— Therefore, if to believe that Nothing godly can be alive in us, but what has all its Life from the Spirit of God living and breathing in us, if to look Solely to it, and depend wholly upon it, both for the Beginning, and Growth of every Thought and Desire that can be holy and good in us, be proud rank Enthusiasm, then it must be the same Enthusiasm to own but one God. For he that owns more goodness than one, owns more Gods than one. And he that believes he can have any good in him, but the one Goodness of God, manifesting itself in him, and through him, owns more goodness than one. But if it be true, that God and Goodness cannot be divided, then it must be a Truth for ever and ever, that so much of Good, so much of God, must be in the Creature.

[Addr-30] And here lies the true unchangeable Distinction between God, and Nature, and the Natural Creature. Nature and Creature are only for the outward manifestation of the inward invisible unapproachable Powers of God; they can rise no higher, nor be anything else in themselves, but as Temples, Habitations, or Instruments, in which the Supernatural God can, and does manifest himself in various Degrees, bringing forth Creatures to be good with his own Goodness, to love and adore him with his own Spirit of Love, for ever singing Praises to the Divine Nature by That which they partake of it. This is the Religion of Divine Inspiration, which being interpreted, is Immanuel or God within us. Every Thing short of this, is short of that Religion which worships God in Spirit and in Truth. And every religious Trust or Confidence in any Thing, but the Divine Operation within us, is but a sort of Image-Worship, which though it may deny the Form, yet retains the Power thereof in the Heart. And he that places any religious Safety in theological Decisions, Scholastic Points, in particular Doctrines and Opinions, that must be held about the scripture Words of Faith, Justification, Sanctification, Election, and Reprobation, so far departs from the true Worship of the Living God within him, and Sets up an Idol of Notions to be worshipped, if not instead of, yet along with him. And I believe it may be taken for a certain Truth, that every Society of Christians, whose Religion stands upon this Ground, however ardent, laborious, and good their zeal may seem to be in such Matters, yet in spite of all, sooner or later, it will be found that Nature is at the Bottom, and that a selfish, earthly, overbearing Pride in their own Definitions and Doctrines of Words, will by Degrees creep up to the same Height, and become that same fleshly Wisdom, doing those very same Things, which they exclaim against in Popes, Cardinals, and Jesuits. Nor can it possibly be otherwise. For a letter-learned zeal has but one Nature wherever it is, it can only do that for Christians, which it did for Jews. As it anciently brought forth Scribes, Pharisees, Hypocrites, and Crucifiers of Christ, as it afterwards brought forth Heresies, Schisms, Popes, papal Decrees, Images, Anathemas, Transubstantiations, so in Protestant countries it will be doing the same Thing, only with other materials; Images of wood and Clay, will only be given up for Images of Doctrines; Grace and Works, imputed sin, and imputed Righteousness, Election and Reprobation, will have their Synods of Dort, as truly evangelical, as any Council of Trent
**************

Thats it for today fellas. In 2 days I will post #31-#60. I am serious about wanting your points of view for comparison.

Maria T

[Maria T (141.157.76.146)]

I am presently reading his Power of the Spirit book given to me by Jack Brown. It is awesome and right on "doctrinally." A book many would love to have in their book collection.

I'd have to ask Jack where he got it from, I forgot what he had told me about that...or maybe he will see this post and put it here himself.

Maria T

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Very interesting to reread William Law...he's such a breath od freah air. Thanks Maria

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

or if you prefer..."breath of fresh air"...*s*

[Maria T (141.157.76.146)]

Thanks Roberta
I noted the "men" on this forum site haven't commented once about William Law, and I wonder why? I really wanted to hear what they had to say in regards to his messages.

Maria T

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Hadn't noticed, but now that you mention it....hmmmmm

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Maria, thanks for your questions about William Law. Jack Brown is the expert here, I am afraid. We all have our favorite "dead guys" don't we? Law was a contemporary of Wesley and Whitefield who were influenced by his "Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life" published in 1729. Law was a mystic concerned with piety and life in the Spirit, which he saw as lacking in many during his day and as is so prevalent even today. I do not agree with all of Law's theology, but on the whole what a marvelous impact his work has made on the world.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Bob,
One thing you will always note about Nic (who by the way is a lady) is that she is always concerned with the scriptures. I am hardly trying to get the better of her--she asks the good questions. I try to give my best answers. I am sure that we are all called to witness for Christ, Nic, but I am also sure that the methods we learned at GG were very inadequate and many times resulted in nothing more than people humoring us so we'd go away. Getting someone to pray a sinners prayer is one thing--making a disciple takes so much longer and requires such a greater degree of responsibility. We have such an inadequate view of the gospel--we think of it as those things you tell someone who doesn't know Christ so they will be converted. The gospel is for Christians too--because every single doctrine in the New Testament proceeds from it!

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.236)]

Maria; I did express thankfulness to Jack when he started posting quotes from Law. I think the Spirit is vitally important for us to understand anything about the Word or the Lord or who and what we even are. He's vital for my daily walk.

Jim and Nic; My problem is with this feeling of frantic urgency and overwhelming odds against us and the blood-on-the-hands feeling of guilt associated with lifting up Christ before the world. We are a Body. As a whole we present Christ; and individually we present aspects of Him. Much of the Church does not seem to know Him very well. Is witnessing not to be partly directed to bringing more exact understanding to the House? Different members of the Body have different giftings and roles. The finger is not the knee. If Christ is to be expressed properly, the finger has to be allowed to be the finger; and not badgered by others into thinking it's supposed to be the mouth. If the Spirit leads and gives opportunity for it, then it is my intention to witness to whom He intends me to; whether in House or not. But out of House direct witness does not seem to be the terrritory He is giving me presently. If this view is wrong, then pray that the Lord will correct me in it. I want to be submitted to Him. And I'm not trying to influence any of you away from the way He is taking you.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Jim,
Can you please explain more about what you meant here:
"We have such an inadequate view of the gospel--we think of it as those things you tell someone who doesn't know Christ so they will be converted. The gospel is for Christians too--because every single doctrine in the New Testament proceeds from it!"

I have always thought of the gospel as the message for the unsaved, and the epistles as doctrine for Christians.

I do agree with you about the sinner's prayer and that method of evangelizing. Sometimes people do get genuinely converted that way, and other times, as you say, they just say it to humor you.
It is not the prayer, but probably God has prepared certain ones to receive the message of salvation. But someone still needs to tell them.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"but probably God has prepared certain ones to receive the message of salvation"

Watch out Nic, you're starting to sound like a Calvinist! By the way, ever heard of "EE" or Evangelism Explosion? It was developed by D.James Kennedy, a leading pastor in my denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America. There are two things taught in all of the scriptures--What we must believe concerning God, and what God requires of us. In that part of the scriptures that God teaches us what is required of us there are two 'Words' or covenants if you will -- the Law and the Gospel. When we think about the word Gospel in modern evangelical terms we think of tracts like the 4 Spiritual Laws or the Romans Road. When we read the Scriptures however that is not what we find--the entire accounts of Christ's preexistence and part in the Creation, his miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit, His Birth to the virgin Mary, His sinless life, His judgment by Pontius Pilate, His death on the cross, His resurrection, His ascension, His current reign and His coming again to judge the quick and the dead are all parts of the Gospel. All of the doctrines in the epistles proceed from these events and works of Christ. The gospel is also found throughout the Old Testament, as Jesus describes in Luke 24 to his disciples. He fulfills the Law, Prophets and Writings and is prefigured in those Old Testament offices of Prophet, Priest, and King--and we must seek Him in all our reading of the Scriptures. And this is our story to tell as you put it. The making of disciples is a lifelong event, and the gospel is therefore required of Christians, too.

somebonus@yahoo.com

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Bob,
There is an urgency in the message to "repent and believe the gospel." But it is God's urgency, that is why he says things like "Awake, O sleeper" and why he uses words like "Today!" in such an emphatic way. We ought not however to think of God as sitting on the edge of His seat waiting for us to act, or fretting about how it will be our fault if Aunt Wilma goes to hell. He provides opportunities and gives us the desires of our hearts when we delight ourselves in Him. Today I was able to give away several Gospels of John to some visitors to my city. God is responsible for regeneration and I am not. We should never feel condemned but at the same time we should as much enjoy talking about our faith as we do anything else we love. This is not the Carl Stevens "Great White Throne" message you are so familiar with. God intends to use His human messengers to preach the gospel. And you are right, we are not all the hand or the foot--but rarely are my feet off doing something else while my hands are busy in a project. The head controls the whole body in a single unified way. The body is not unattached parts severed from one another. We are the city of God.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I remember the GGWO branch ministry I was in in Maine taught the EE class to the whole congregation, and added a lot of condemnation to it: anyone who didn't participate was "asked" to leave the congregation for disobedience. *ugh*

I am pretty sure that is not what Pastor Kennedy had in mind.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.149.184)]

EE has been taught in the Assemblies of God church I attend. I have trouble with the idea of having mapped out questions to ask 'the lost' and particular methods of approaching them. This all seems too contrived to me. If I'm going to do it, it needs to be a Spirit inspired thing for the individual I'm with. I have other concerns I'll try to address in the morning. My family wants me to finish watching a DVD about a movie that Terry Gilliam could not finish... I've thought a lot about this today. Pray for me. Bob

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I am not endorsing all methods as the only way to do things. And perhaps it is not such a good idea to think that 'spirit led' is never a method in operation, God has greatly used EE in many churches. Please see my recommendation of the book by Jerram Barrs, "The Heart of Evangelism" above.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Just curious. Is this thread getting too long for the dial up people?

[Anonymous (65.234.188.108)]

Yep.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

i'm currently reading thru a book called " Worlds Greatest Preachers"

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Worlds Greatest Preachers

(Whitaker House, 222 pages, ISBN 0-88368-942-1, 6" x 9")
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">BACK COVER:
"If you are eager for real joy, I am persuaded that no joy growing wealthy, no joy of increasing knowledge, no joy of influence over your fellow creatures, no joy of any other sort, can ever compare with the rapture of saving a soul from death."
C. H. Spurgeon

Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have compiled the strongest sermons with the best Christian advice by the greatest preachers in history. Join these preachers as they discuss a wide range of subjects, including the Key to Evangelism and How to Reach Souls.

When you are finished with this book, you will have experienced the eloquence of Charles Spurgeon, the zeal of John Wesley and the effectiveness of Jonathan Edwards and learned the secret of their success.

CONTENTS:

PART ONE - The World's Greatest Sermons.

John Wesley
The Original, Nature, Property, and Use of the Law.

Charles Spurgeon
The Uses of the Law.

George Whitefield
The Lord Our Righteousness.

Jonathan Edwards
Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

Martin Luther
The Law, Faith, and Love to Your Neighbor.

Charles Spurgeon
Law and Grace.

PART TWO - Open-Air Preaching: Fulfulling the Christian's Highest Calling.

Open-Air Meetings by R.A. Torrey

Open-Air Preachings by John Wesley

Open-Air Preaching: A Sketch of its History and Remarks Thereon by Charles Spurgeon

Definite Directions for Open-Air Preaching by Gawin Kirkham

Ally in the Heart of the Enemy by Ray Comfort</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Thanks for your recommendation, sounds great to me! I've heard that Kirk Cameron has made a video presentation of the message as well.</FONT>

[Izziesoul (209.6.151.215)]

Thanks JF, always looking out for our souls heh?
:}

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

i been reading some of Rays and Kirks materials and am plaaning to order some of thier DVDs ..im interested in the open air evangelism..after reading "Revivals Golden Key" its really awakened me to some things..

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

This thread is getting too long for the dial ups. Thanks for your participation and feel free to renew your comments (be brief and please don't cut and paste whole chapters) on the new Recommended Reading II thread.

Glad to hear about the dvd's. Check out "Open Air Campaigners" on the new thread.

[Anonymous (66.90.181.249)]

.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

do something Satan doesn't want you to do tonight....PRAY

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

HYMN (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/s/jsreign.htm)

[cordell]

oh the way of FN threads are fascinating...

[cordell]

www.inflatablechurch.com (http://www.inflatablechurch.com)

the future for ggwo?

[minutus]

How about an inflatable wig for Tom?

[cordell]

I wonder if our friends at LW could supply one?

[sidethorn]

That would be priceless!!!!