OUTRAGED IN MASSACHUSETTS

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

If you think Baltimore and Lenox was bad, there were and presently are equally strange goings on at the GGWO affiliate churches in the Massahusetts/CT. area.

Those who know – tell your stories here:

[Anonymous (80.74.208.52)]

Their comments:"R E V I V A L"

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

anon

Revival works both ways, in the way I see it Revival is something you may need and hope you can get after they get through with you. I'll tell you a revival story:

It started with the “Glorious Gospel Church” in Springfield started in the early 1980’s, under the leadership of Steve Stratus who had the then nearest clone to the Lenox church. Steve was a handsome womanizer and His father owned a sleazebag hotel in West Springfield that was a rat infestation of prostitution and drugs (now torn down). Steve worked there and was exposed to a lot growing up. That church split because of a multitude of sexual scandals and improprieties that Paul Stevens tried to hush and defend, and broker an amicable agreement on. That pastor was not fired for his participation in any wrong doing by Stevens. He had to be voted-out. And even then I don’t think he would leave. Ask Paul Stevens and D. Lewis about that one. The church lost all of its assets because of a failure to stand for the truth. How many gave their homes and money for that sham? Steve Scibelli, now a mission’s pastor to Africa and part of the Baltimore ministry is a product of that same system. Ask him what went on. He was an Eye Witness. Steve Stratus and other Church leaders shared a secret cabin in the woods on Lake Congamong in Southwick, MA for many years.

Now that Church is led by the Carl Stevens prodigy Clone “Wayne Hogarth” and his sidekick Chet Marshall and operates in Westfield, MA. Carl considers Wayne his “son” - he is a real piece of work; a comedian and brown-noser extraordinaire. Some say that although he is short and fat he makes-up for it with his personality. Look-out! He knows how to “butter” people up before he puts them in the oven. He is an exact representation of Carl Stevens in mannerism and tactics. Wayne is also from Maine as was Stevens. He is just as cocky as his spiritual father and would defend him to the death. He demands submission to his authority and his Church practically worships the ground he walks. Hogarth is uneducated beyond Stevens School of the Bible through whom he was credentialed. He is spiritual user and abuser does it well with a big smile on his face and a chuckle. Many people were expendable and cast adrift to the wayside after their usefulness expired. Wayne sought to build his little empire to please his spiritual daddy Carl, and is doing a great job at doing so. The turn-over there is horrific. As long as there is extensive outreach there will always be new recruits and worker bees to bring home the honey.

The GGWO in Lee, MA is led by Steve Stratus’ high school classmate David Stambowski. They did “exploits” together when they were in High School together. He is similarly tall, dark, and handsome, and likes to drive Volvos and BMW’s. He is highly driven, like Wayne and results oriented and have demanding expectations from his followers – he spiritually uses and abuses well too. Stambowski seems to run the whole show there. To see how he operates is to go back in time to how Stevens manipulated and coerced his early followers to obedience. The church there is that small town has struggled because of its close proximity and the rumors that still linger from when The Bible Speaks were driven out of town. His church split over some hidden agendas. Those churches within Steven’s jurisdiction were the subject of intense pressure when there was any activity that would jeopardize their affiliation.

Phil Mawaka, pastor of the Hartford CT. GGWO outreach was an associate pastor under Steve Stratus, (as Scibelli had been). He is another piece of work like Hogarth, who loves himself and the prestige of his position. He hosts various events and conferences yearly and has Carl come as a guest speaker occasionally. Mawaka is extremely controlling and manipulative as are all the GGWO pastors in that area. Formality and control and reverence for Carl are the hallmarks of that ministry. Mawaka has a degree in social work and is a proud man to his fault. Mawaka trained David Stambowski to be a pastor, and the results are evident. Like father like son.

Hogarth, Stambowski, and Mawaka are constantly coveting the prestige and adoration from Carl and the recognition of GGWO worldwide. They are highly competitive and seem to tolerate one another within their shared territory – they try well to appear friendly, but in practice – are not. They have all hung-on to Carl’s dream and travel constantly to Baltimore to speak and visit.

Eye Witness

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Eye Witness,

Dead on observations. Wayne should be gone soon from Westfield. Secret meetings were held here and Wayne is the new successor to the throne. Obvious choice.. he is after all "Stepford Pastor"


What became of those in Springfield after the split in 93? Of course in Baltimore all we heard was they were all selling hot dogs at the Big E!

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Eyewitness will you please email me at

somebonus@yahoo.com

I have something to ask you about Springfield in the early 80s if you were there.

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

Many drifted back into the community at large. A small reminant of die hards reconstituted themselves like the "borg" force on Star Treck - in what later became Waynes Church after a Pastor from Florida tried to keep it together but went home to "mummy". Perhaps Wayne had out lived his usefulness there - its not big enough for his ego.

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

Cordell Walker:

ask here - I don't do email

[Anonymous (68.38.195.85)]

so many people were so hurt from tha scandall of pastor stratus that they fell to other sensible churchs and have a normal christian life. i did love going to sprigfield and hearing Gods life, we were so child like and loved jesus, its not all the churchs falt but the leaders with to much power

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Eye Witness, What happened to the State St. church? Is there still a church there? Where you in the Glorious Gospel church at one time? What happened to you after the split? If you can share without giving up your anonymity. Is Ted Schibelli in Wayne's church? What happened to Jim and Becky Cromwell? They moved to Florida, I never knew why. Do you know Becky's sister Missy? She married Dave Michalek. Do you know what happened to them?

Was the split over Steve's failings AND cutting off from Baltimore or was it more or something completely different than we heard here in Baltimore.

Forgive all the questions, but I have many since leaving GG and realizing I heard lies about everyone that left before me. I want the truth after all these years. Thanks

[Anonymous (4.155.51.177)]

Gee, this morning I just heard P. Scibelli talking about how so many people have returned to the Springfield church, how it went from 11 people to 500 people in 10 years, that God brought back so many people who left and is restoring so many of those who were wounded by the split.

Of course I didn't believe a word of it. I am just coming to the stark realization that everything I have heard for the last nearly 20 years has been LIES!!!!!

Let's bring back all the wounded sheep to a GG church to be healed by a spiritually abusive system. Let's bring about healing with more lies, deceits, and cover ups. That's just what we all need - go back to GG to be healed.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

To: Eyewitness 65.

Your narrative is most interesting because it puts flesh on a lot of the skeletons they have buried in their closet.
I have been waiting to see something about the three sycophants over there in Mass/Connecticut.

It has always been apparent that Wayne Hogarth sold his soul and personality to mimic Stevens in every way. I knew him before this and have something to compare it to. Its like a mental illness with him. What happened to his side kick Cirlingione ?
Also, do you remember the youth pastor from Stambovskys ministry that molested one of the kids in the youth group and fled the country with Stevens assistance?

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

As far as I know the Building is there and occupied by the church and members some of which chose to stay after the break-up. They did not like Carl Stevens ministry for various reasons. . All of their other property was sold long ago - the school is closed.

Secrets, secrets and more secrets were the reason for the beginning of the end. It is no different than the senerio of the world, it all revolved around sex, power, and money. Ask Pastor Stevens, because it was his man and he had documented lists of what I was told was 30 some women involved. Who really knows?

The people you spoke of I know not of their fate

[Anonymous (68.33.104.166)]

My recollection of the Springfield church was that the leaders were trying to figure out a way to discipline Stratos and Cody. They were distrustful of homebase and were going at it alone. Paul went up there more than once to try to keep the Springfield church in the family. It didn't work. Stevens' practiced his usual dualism by inviting Stratos and his wife down to "get healing" while at the same time discrediting him and the church in Springfield. That church suffered greatly trying to deal with the issues. GG then had Marshall start up the current church, Kelly took it over and then Wayne stepped in. BTW, the church is doing quite well - 300+ members.

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

anon 4,55 and 216

Do you mean "Sir" lingione - not current on that. I do know that because he was one of the Good ol boys from Waynes past, he Got a job. They somehow managed to milk a millionare doner to loan them some money to fix up an airplane hanger. Then wishing to make it look like a legitimite church, he convinced Bob White from Maine to build a fake front that looked like a church steeple.

Did Scibelli mention all the people who left because they were used for their money and expertise and then thrown away? As I said above, as long as there are aggressive and consistent outreaches, there will always be a fresh batch of worker bees to bring home the honey. It will be just a matter of time until that group turns over when they discover what things are really like on the inside. Its a cycle. They're on the up cycle now. That's how it has always been.

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Sorry you don't do email Eye Witness. I am just desiring to ask something and protect an innocent person at the same time. If you change your mind -- somebonus@yahoo.com

I have been out of TBS since 1987.

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

anon 68,33

Doing well "300+" is not a measure of success. But the numbers game is important to any business. I'm sure, Wayne, like Carl and all the others has the ushers count everything and everybody to be exact. They measure their success by numbers and a good offering. If they don't get enough they pass the bucket around again and call it something else. If attendance is low they brow-beat their members to bring more guests, invite a friend, come to three services, a bible study, outreach, and a rap and lunch. They take a collection there as well. Then they ask for giving beyond their norm, to pay for all the Missions trips and gas for their cars so they can visit people and drink coffee while their members have to work for a living.

[Anonymous (80.221.119.19)]

Steve Stratos now:
http://www.qmedtrix.com/news/PR/pr_016.html

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

the springfield church doesn't even have three services a week, only two. wwps (what would pastor say?)

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Two services a week??? That spells relief in my book!

WWPS... that would make a great bumper sticker..

WWPD... we now know a hell of alot more than we imagined!

[Anonymous (207.69.137.202)]

Reading this thread was like a "blast from the past." Although I wasn't still "in" for these scandals, I do remember when Marty and Debbie O'Brien left, and Bobby O., and others, the spin was that they were now having drunken orgies and, you guessed it, selling hot dogs! The more things change, the more they stay the same!!!
deb

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Bobby O and Marty OBrien live in Maine and are still married to the same women. The ladies work in a private school in Yarmouth or Falmouth (?) that would be Alana and Debbie. Bobby O and I talked last year, he claims not to be a Christian and loves Steven Hawkings philosophy. Marty OBrien also does not profess Christianity according to Bob O. Bob and Marty are both regular working guys. Bob calls his older kids "cult babies."

[Anonymous (4.155.90.211)]

Scibelli this morning did not mention the people who were used and cast off (surprise, surprise) He did mention that "seeds of jealousy" were sown 14 years ago, whatever that was supposed to mean. Someone reading this may understand what he meant; I didn't. My friend and I were talking today about how his preaching has changed. He has sold out.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

This is a great thread! Thanks eye witness. Thanks Deb for telling me to read it. Let's get some more eye witness accounts about Pittsfield, Haverhill, and other parts of MA. A braver soul than me could forward this link to Stratus' present employers.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Pastor Stratos failed personally, yes, but he was one of the first to be disillusioned with Pastor Stevens and all the hypocrisies of home base. He has started over so leave him alone. He is a gifted man and a genuine one despite his failings

[Anonymous (207.7.205.59)]

Hey! Statos, Morrison, Anderson, Scabelli (spelling?), Robinson, Schaller, Marr, Labe, Leonard and all the rest are all the same. We all fail personally, yes, but we don't all take advantage of the people in God's name. They did and they need to repent and apologize. They have this forum...let them admit to it here and apologize to the people.
Some were disillusioned and left but they knew long before they left what was going on. Many others are still in and are still doing the same thing. Here's what I say:

Give the money back to the people. Give back the money, give it back if you're so genuine.

Love this Board...Outraged in MA!

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

I agree whole heartedly with anon 205,188.

Leave Stratus alone! - he was in my estimation a victim of abuse -- not an excuse to justify though. Stevens is more to blame for having turned him into the beast that he became at that time. I believe he is sincerely repented and a changed man. My only point is to show a little of his background and the mentality of GGWO in dealing with such gross misconduct - the same abuses that continue to this day to plague them.

The woman caught in adultry had no one to accuse her that was without the same sin. Since all the elders had her, they all walked away.

Eye Witness

[Isabella (207.7.205.59)]

Eye Witness: First, thanks for this board...BUT

Stratos is the same. He did what he did and he knew what he was doing. It was difficult for all of us to walk away, but some did when they realized what was going on, before taking advantage of the poor in God's name. Anyone who did this needs to admit it and repent by apologizing and asking the people they abused how they can repay them for their sin.

This also goes for wig boy. He needs to give the money back. He should start with Betsy Doveydenas.

Yeh, fat chance.

[Anonymous (68.235.23.208)]

It started with the “Glorious Gospel Church” in Springfield started in the early 1980’s, under the leadership of Steve Stratus who had the then nearest clone to the Lenox church. Steve was a handsome womanizer and His father owned a sleazebag hotel in West Springfield that was a rat infestation of prostitution and drugs (now torn down). Steve worked there and was exposed to a lot growing up. That church split because of a multitude of sexual scandals and improprieties that Paul Stevens tried to hush and defend, and broker an amicable agreement on. That pastor was not fired for his participation in any wrong doing by Stevens. He had to be voted-out. And even then I don’t think he would leave. Ask Paul Stevens and D. Lewis about that one. The church lost all of its assets because of a failure to stand for the truth. How many gave their homes and money for that sham? Steve Scibelli, now a mission’s pastor to Africa and part of the Baltimore ministry is a product of that same system. Ask him what went on. He was an Eye Witness. Steve Stratus and other Church leaders shared a secret cabin in the woods on Lake Congamong in Southwick, MA for many years.

Eye witness certainly was not an eye witness to what happened before the Springfield Church split away from Baltimore. The affairs were only the catlyst that caused the split. As soon as they became public Stratos stepped down and made arrangements to move away with his wife to save their marriage. That was when the struggle began. Pastor Stevens was upset (as were the die hard Greater Gracers, Chet and the gang) because the elders in Springfield didn't consult with him
about how it should be handled. At that point, the diehards felt it was time to get the church back into the fold and back into submission to their spiritual father, Pastor Stevens. There were secret meetings in Ghana with Scibelli and Stevens as to who should take over.

Stratos left of his own account. Paul Stevens was not involved until Stratos left. He only stayed involved until the church announced that they wanted to be "friends" with GG, but not an affiliate. At that point GG wrote "Ichabod" over the door and Paul had nothing to do with the elders there.

Springfield was not like Lenox. People did not sell their homes to give money to the ministry. I know of one family who gave gift of $30,000 to purchase a building. The stipulation was that if the property was sold they would get their money back. The property sold and they got their money back.

Also, there was no secret cabin on Congamon Lake. Stratos' aunt owned it. It was practically a shack with an outhouse. The church had picnics and cook-outs there. Some pastors did take a vacation there. Most people in the church knew all about it.

[Anonymous (68.235.23.208)]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eye Witness, What happened to the State St. church? Is there still a church there? Where you in the Glorious Gospel church at one time? What happened to you after the split? If you can share without giving up your anonymity. Is Ted Schibelli in Wayne's church? What happened to Jim and Becky Cromwell? They moved to Florida, I never knew why. Do you know Becky's sister Missy? She married Dave Michalek. Do you know what happened to them?

Glorious Gospel Church is alive and well with Pastor Jeff Chandler whose been there for years now after the big split. They managed to keep the holdings away from GG. I believe Ted Scibelli still goes to church there.

Jim and Becky Cromwell are doing great in Florida, as are Dave and Missy in the Springfield area.

[SJ (64.12.117.20)]

To 68.235.23.208,
Thank you for your post of 10:10 pm.
I was in the Springfield church for several years before moving to Baltimore. Pastor Stratos was a gifted preacher with much compassion for people. Yes, he did fail personally and he acknowledged it, and as you say, stepped down and moved away to save his marriage. The Springfield church was a real family to me and I have true friends to this day from there. Pastor Stratos always showed me grace and compassion for a very difficult situation I was in at the time, and he and Leslie were real friends

SJ

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

SJ,

He and Leslie were real friends to me also.

Cara

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

If anyone has any actual specific things that Pastor Hogarth has done, I would like to hear it. It seems to me all I have heard is that some of you don't like his mannerisms or personality. I'd like to hear the Biblical basis for maligning a man on such a subjective basis. It seems to me, and I have known him for over 20 years, that Pastor Hogarth has done nothing but love people and minister and preach the Word. If he has done something specific that is wrong I would be curious to hear it. Otherwise you are defaming a man that has otherwise served God and people for many years, and be assured God will call all of you to answer for such accusations.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

Hogarth stood by silently as a first hand observer of much of those evil acts.
Like a good little nazi, he gave his allegience to his fuhrer rather than the God he proclaims.

When the survivor of concentration camps emerged to begin new lives they found they had lost much of their religous faith. In turn many asked of the holocaust;Where was God?

One Rabbi amongst many retorted; where was man?

Those who could have spoken up but did nothing for fear of losing rank or their superiors favor.

Answer me that 24.131.161.83.

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

Again only speculation. You cant possibly know what he knew and didn't know that's why I said specific things you have witnessed him do. If you knew what he knew then you knew yourself all this time and were silent as well. Graphic language like "Fuhrer" and "Nazi" and shameless alagories to concentration camps does not add validity to your "Factless" accusations it only takes from the true horror of these events which any reaonable persona can nott possibly compare to anything done in GGWO, even if it were all true. Sorry 216 I still don't see any observable actions. I'm not even asking for proof, just something that you can know he did, not what he must have known. That's "guilty by association" and God help us all if any of us are held to that standard.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

Actually a number of us did see the things he saw but were dismissed by him, and later slandered.
He does know,many know that and you will never, because your afraid to challenge them.
About the nazi methphors, creepy but true.
Take off your blinders.
Ask around if you dare.
Hogarth enables this kind of evil to continue by his consent. He imitate Carl in his own little way, who knows where it will lead.
Too bad that it upsets you to hear that, but try looking outside the bubble of GGWO

[Anonymous (69.136.228.150)]

you shameful mother****ers just love to attack a man of God who has restored people to christ and by the way he points them to jesus christ you idiots. i cant wait to just watch each one of you jerk offs to burn in hell.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.131)]

To 69.136.228.150

That sound just like a response from a "pastors heart" A GGWO pastor that is.

[Anonymous (24.131.161.83)]

You speak of blinders, but you are so blinded by your hurt or rage or hate that you cast a wide net over anyone you can. I know much more than you think and I'm not saying that many things here aren't true. That's why I have not posted until now. I refuse to comment on that which I cannot know (speculation). I was afraid that honest intelligent discourse would be more than this board could handle...guess I was right. You don't even know me and you speculate that I am with GGWO and that I will "Never Know" because I am "afraid". You attack me personally, yet I have not said a single word personally against you. As I said, apparantly intelligent dispassionate discourse is wasted here. Respond how you will. I won't be reading it. I've already wasted enough of my time here. I hope you all find the healing you are looking for. I'm sorry if some of you are hurt. Those that hurt you should and will be held to task for their actions, here or before God. Just please don't try to seek healing in bile and animosity. You are more likely to find it in forgiveness. Perpetuating this anger is not serving the Body of Christ. We are all guilty of these same things and more, before God...and he forgave us. Cannot we do the same. Farewell and Amen

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

It's the GGWO equivalent of "whistling past the graveyard" - the visceral fear reaction - the resorting to personal attack described in all the decriptions of cultic behaviour.

[Anonymous (69.136.228.150)]

he has helped a lot of hurting people, i am an eyewitness to that. if you have obvious issues with baltimore or other pastors please keep pastor HOGARTH OUT OF YOUR attcks. pray for him he is a godly man i know he lifts up christ not hikself. that is why i got so mad at you all.

[Anonymous (69.136.228.150)]

yes

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Spiritual abuse is equated to incestual rape. Do not minimize the suffering others.

Wayne is just as guilty as Robinson, Lewis, Schaller, Schibelli, Marr, S.Stevens,Duff and Capello that KNOW EVERYTHING.. the sexual abuse, the bilking of money, cover-ups, pay-offs and drugs. They are willing participants and carry out the abuse, enable Carl and the lies. They are more accountable than you could possibly imagine. Dear friend, THEY KNOW and continue to serve and benefit from the man that serves the god of money, sex and power.

Anyone, anyone that interferes with this infectious evil is destroyed. ANYONE OF THOSE MEN COULD HAVE STEPPED IN AND STOPPED THIS BUT THEY DID NOT.

The scenerio is similiar to Hilter and the men around the despot.

To ignore this reality makes you as accountable as the German people that denied, denied, denied and sent 11 million Jews to their death.

God is speaking on this board. LISTEN!

[Anonymous (200.117.192.80)]

I think it was only 6 million.

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

Anon 24,13

Someone said Hogarth is going to leave Westfield and take the helm from Carl. If you don’t think all these pastors don't confide confidentially among themselves - you are mistaken. They do - it is part of their network of support and encouragement. No one could be closer to all the confidences and work so hard to know it all than Hogarth. Believe me he knows and acts dumb for the sake of their hypocritic oath of pastor hood.Why is there no open and honest plan, communicated to the church, of how these appointments will be handled. All these years and no backup and contingency? I find that hard to believe. I think that the reason no one talks about who is changing positions is because people are so "celebrity" oriented, that once the "celebrity" stops doing services, attendence will wane and offerings will go down. Any changes are held to the last minute to ensure a steady flow of honey from the worker bees.

The problem with all these ministries is that they play favorites like the world and give favors to their inner circle.

I heard Hogarth and Marshall and Cirlingione and Jim Brigham and the Cabrals were taken on an all expense trip to the Bahamas for their hard work and dedication to building the new church by their millionaire friend as the rest of the church did the lions share of the tasks. I remember David poured out the water his soldiers brought to him for risk of their lives out of honor. David would not be treated favorably above the others and made a point to put everyone on equal value and honor.I hear the only one out of that group with any honor was Jim Brigham, and because he spoke-out, he was blackballed and his marriage failed.

The right thing for Hogarth to have done under the circumstances, would have been to not take the trip unless all could go, or ask his secret millionaire friend that in the interest of fairness, to do something to honor the entire church there who gave their hearts, prayers, support, time and expertise and connections to this endeaver. He did not! So much for honor.

The problem with Hogarth and Carl and the rest of these sheep eaters is that they love the preference. I would have loved to hear just once in 25 years one of these pastors say: "Knock it Off". I have never heard any correction for the adoration and praise that crescendo at every service. The responsibility is on their hands to correct and admonish and teach the flock, and by example serve. Instead they take as much as can be heaped upon them without one word. Scibelli and Schaller I have heard try to put that stuff off, from time to time. Carl never has, and most of the others don’t either.

The reason some of this pastor worshipping started was because a huge number of Catholics had entered into the ministry, and they were accustomed to putting the priests and nuns on the pedestal. That was never addressed lovingly and consistently. There was never, as far as I know, any teaching to the contrary.

Eye Witness

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Actually, the estimates are between 4.1-6.0 million Jews and 5-6 million non-Jews (including Christians, Gypsies, homosexuals, POWs, etcetera).

But your point wasn't really to clarify the numbers, now was it, 200.117?

You can't devalue what was stated by pointing out a one word mis-speak. The author's analogy is still rather accurate.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

test 2

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Well who are you all? Maybe we could have a get together?

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Sort of a party where we could reminisce. Wouldn't that be fun?

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

We could set a time and place, like a park or something and just kind of see who has the courage to show up.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Maybe we could bring some wine, just to show our growth in Biblical understanding.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Or perhaps someone could instruct me again on that "new wine" thing.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Or maybe we could watch some old Christian Psycololgy class vidoes or listen to throne words a few times.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

You could also stand in the middle of the freeway and see who gets mowed down first.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

I wonder if I have any of the old doctrine books lying around? Those would be fun to break out.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Psycololgy? what the heck is that?

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

I don't know about you all, but I was certainly following a man. What say you all?

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Hello...testing 1..2..3

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

How about getting better names than numbers bla bla bla

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Anonymous (24.131.161.83)
Hmmmm....if you let us know who you are maybe we can really talk....btw, my name is Roberta Fernalld. What's yours? I think you may be passing up a real chance to find out a few of the ministry's secrets here...but many are loathe to be specific to some one who is not saying their name.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

What do you mean by getting mowed down?

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Has TBS brought in the boys with the guns again? Are they going to call in the "boys"?

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Maybe when we meet we sould wear trenchcoats and put our hands in our pockets like we have guns too. That might frighten the "boys".

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

As I recall, they were big boys who could hit home runs on the nicely manicured softball field.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Well, I'll sign off for a while. No one seems in the mood to discuss.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Lets say I possessed a "secret" that I was loathe to share with anyone except one who revealed his/her name. But I was happy to share it with one whom I knew his/her name. Would caution be what was driving me? It seems to me that it would be safer to reveal my "secrets" while remaining anonymous. Maybe I'm wrong but something seems fishy. Anyway secrets I possess and I don't need any more, thank you.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

OK...just thought I could help

Roberta

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

Secret in Springfield must be another pastor lover. The only secret now is the one you keep up your _____ !! Anyone wish to fill in the blank??

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

There is someone trolling for info tonight on more than one thread.

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

Oh brother....65.96.153.178....your powers of perception are a bit lacking. I would prescribe a few weeks of uninterrupted Imus in the Morning in order for you to sharpen your skills. It might help for you to lighten up just a tad. Seriously now, life is passing quickly and to allow the TBS dodos to have such power over you is, well, a waste.

Again, lets have a get together.

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

Oh and another thing 65.96.153.178, the word is sleeve. Sleeve. I guess.

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

Just one last idea before diving into work for the day. How about at our meeting we have a cathartic baptism ceremony. We could go down into the water still tarnished with the effects of TBS, then when we emerge we are Christians and untarnished. Wouldn't that be powerfully symbolic?

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

I know, I know, I said I was done, but just one more thought. I would imagine that the TBS castaways outnumber the current devotees by a large margin. That being said I think that we need to plan on a lot of work to organize this thing. Why don't you all start to put together an invitation list. I will start looking for a place for the event. Think of how much fun this could be!

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

When many of us think back we have quite a story to tell. How many in our country have been involved in a cult? (a cult that many of us were led to the Lord through) How many have lived in a commune? Seen the kind of mind manipulation we have seen? How about the dirty, back stabbing by those we thought were friends, weasely double dealing, spy planting, etc., etc. I mean you can't make this stuff up. This has all the makings of a novel. I hope some of you have kept a journal of the journey. I am gong to start writing down my remembrances. This has the makings of a book. New York Times best seller list here we come.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Secret, couldn't agree more! It is the classic moral tale. An "East of Eden" or an "East of Springfield"

Question: Martin L puts his P.O. box as W.Spfld and the zip as 01090. Has another zip been added? Or is Martin L. being less than honest?

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Folks:

It seems to be that people like sceret in spfld, Martin L, nonotone, and Dave are all present members trying to gunk up the posts with crap to take away the power of what is happening. So many people who partook in the mind control cult called 'The Bible Speaks' now 'Greater Grace' are able to share throught this discussion board that the organization is a sham. I have a hard time not thinking at least one of them if not all is Scott Robinson.

It would be good to hear some more genuine experiences of what happened to us in Massachusettes while involved in this cult.

Sincerely,
Louise Connolly

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

West Springfield PO Box zip codes are 01090. He is not misleading.

[sceret in spfld (216.41.79.170)]

Everybody already knows the mind control, cult, bla, bla, bla stuff of TBS. From my prospective the point is getting beyond it. Louise, why don't you let the thing flow for a bit. Bitterness is a bad thing for your mind. Forgetting about "them" for the moment, this could be a time to tend to "us".

Just a thought, and no disrespect intended.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Louise,
You have mentioned Pastor Robinson more than once and seem to have a personal grudge against him. I'm sure you have your own reasons.
However, I seriously doubt if Pastor Robinson would spend all the time it would take writing the endless posts of Martin L. or Dave, or even some others. I think he has better things to do with his time

[JD Skeet (205.188.117.20)]

Louise:

Sceret in spfld, Martin L, nonotone, and Dave are all different people. They all have distinctive and different writing styles.

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Secret, You are right that there is a time to move beyond "Hey, I just spent blah,blah years in a cult." Sounds like you had that light turned on, processed it and moved on.

But it would be profitable to consider that many just had the light turned on, they are just at step one and have tons and tons of twisted scriptures to untwist. They, as Chris Brown wonderfully said, have just figured out that our brand of Christianity is like two puzzles thrown in the same box and now have the difficult process of seperating the puzzles.

I began this factnet venture to bring as many into the light as I could. I also believed that many TBS/GGWO past members have never had the chance to tell their story. The counterfeit totalitarian church we were under did a masterful job of silencing every voice and leaving hundreds and hundreds discarded in their wake.

The forum has evolved into a meeting place of reconnections. This is a beautiful and long needed. But the other purpose is bring understanding and support to those just exiting and also to break that wall of silence within GG and rescue those willing to be rescued. They need truth. The truth shines the light on the counterfeit.

I am glad you found your way out. But it is God's heart to help others now. I pray we do not loose sight of how difficult it is to free one's self from such a web of darkness and deceit. This leadership had blatant disregard for the individual, similiar to communism. We, believers with Christ's nature within must reach out to each individual and save the badly wounded sheep devoured by their counterfeit shepherd. That is what Christ would do.

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Happy to help in any way I can.

I have seen much, been involved in much and been on a long journey to be sure. At the end of the day I have found focusing on "the other" has been counter productive, at least for me. For example, the reference to secrets. Exposing "secrets" is fun for a while. Somehow it helps validate our decision to make the break. But eventually we must address ourselves. Our own health demands it.

I would say take what you know of things about TBS in every facit. Such as back stabbing, sex, mind control, etc., etc. Multipy what you know by a large multiple. Now you are getting close to the truth about "the ministry". Does filling it in with facts help or hurt? Again, I am talking about our own mental health.

Also, I have found over the years that the deceived ones aren't impressed with facts, and the deceivers only redouble their efforts to deceive. I'm sure you know the game. As my father used to say, "spare me the facts, my mind is made up".

So, anyway, I think that a get together would be fun. I'm waiting for comments.

[Cara (149.174.164.83)]

Secret, I agree for mental health, for recovery, one must move on to the positive. But part of the process is understanding what we were participants of. Understanding the abusive and counterfeit Christianity we submitted ourselves to. It is an awakening and a process and I see no "fun" in revealing secrets, only necessary enlightenment to the lies.

Many of us in the process are connecting and establishing intimate friendships through this. Coming out of an abusive relationship is not fun. It is painful and support is much needed. I hope you found that on your journey as I have. I will do everything in my power to provide that kind of support to others now. As you spoke of the multiplication factor of the abusive effects of this group, consider how God views it and His nature and let's be mindful of our hurting brethren.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Secret, I have difficulty believing you are sincere, especially considering the significant shift in your posts.

If you are, God bless you.

If you're not, God bless you, too.

You just seem to be trying to perfect your new technique, since the last one didn't work.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.188.73)]

Louise Connelly, I've twice sent you emails which have arrived blank. I don't know why. I also sent an email to Tom Lloyd, and that went through. Anyway, what I was trying to tell you was that I've posted things on the 'Where Did They Go' thread about the church that was in Pittsfield under John Gardner and ended up in Lee. Sorry about the mixup, but it wasn't intentional. Love, Bob

[secret in spfld (24.218.6.0)]

Sincere? Technique? Believe?

I see there is a problem here.

Paranoia maybe, I don't know.

205.188.117.20, if this is a forum it is akin to a dialogue, not a legal position paper.

149.174.64.83, you started this forum? Since I am new perhaps I have stepped on some toes. If so I'm sorry. Are there rules. I thought that this "forum" was an open discussion.

Cara, no disrespect, but many in my experience dwell on the "juice" of details. But your comments are well taken. No offence intended.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Some would call what you pronounce as paranoia as just a healthy distrust.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Dear Gang:

Probably the reason I use Robinson as my focal point of despicable Bible Speaks pastors is because he was the one I saw most in action when it came to talking people into selling all and following the cult. As I mentioned the first time I spoke, Marilyn Raymond lives in projects now. She was one of the people Robinson conned into selling all and living communally in Gloucester, MA. I haven't thought so much about TBS in years since reading these discussion boards, however, when ever I tell anyone about my time there I always refer to it as cult. You know why, because it is a cult. It angers me to think that this cult is continuing to prey upon people in the name of Jesus. Many of the people who gave all to TBS have never been able to recover from it both mentally and financially.

It doesn't matter if we met nice people or we learned some nice things there, we were under the influence of mind control. We compromised our souls for that organization. Even though, I have got on with my life and have a nice life today as long as TBS/GGWO is in business I'll be angry when they come to mind.

Louise Connolly (Maguire)

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Amen Louise! You said it!

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

I am an x but I never say I was in a cult.

Shannon

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I have no problem knowing and saying I was recruited into a destructive bible based personality cult for that is just what it was and continues to be.

Right on Louise.

Roberta

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

You can honestly say that in the beginning you didn't go willingly?

Shannon

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

At the beginning we didn't know all the unspoken rules. The love drew us. If I had known joining the Bible Speaks I would be discredited with slander because I was led elsewhere, I never would have joined. If I knew that I would not be able to able to question an error in leadership, I would not have joined. If I knew that Carl did not practice (habitually not practice) what he preached I never would have joined. I don't think any of us knew the rules when we were drawn in by love.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I can honestly say I was lied to about what it really was, yes. I was flattered, tricked, "love bombed" and lied to on the weekend my grandmother passed away. I was invited to hear Carl Stevens speak in the log church in Auburn Maine. Pastor Colby was a family friend and I had been attending his branch ministry for a few weeks off and on prior to this. I was newly "saved" prior to this from outside the ministry. Pastor Stevens knew my father. I was baited and hooked by him personally at an extremely vulnerable moment. I had been pressured by many in Pastor's Colby's church to "commit" myself to Pastor Steven's teachings, and to the man himself for months prior to meeting him. A well used tactic by all cults.

I did not know then all I discovered later about the means used to "hook" people. I was young, educated, and recruited into something of which I had little understanding at a time when I was vulnerable. They used my sorrowful situation to their advantage. At the service at the log church Pastor Stevens himself counseled me and used the information about me Pastor Colby told him and said it was a "word of knowledge"...also a well used technique of cults..., and the connection he had with my father to pressure me. The Colbys continued the pressure until I was swept up into it all. I sold all I had, giving them the $$ for they said it was "God's will", moved into a dingy room at the "Body House" in Rumford and I was on my way...

Yes, Shannon I can honestly say I did not go willingly.

But I left willingly. Regardless of the lies told about me, the threats and phone calls and the pressure, I left willingly.

Roberta

[Anonymous (141.157.25.128)]

hey roberta, someone in GG told me you suck a good dick -- and swallow too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Thank you for sharing your story with me-that means alot. I was asking honestly because everyone has been through something different. It does shed some more light. My own experience was very very difficult but after attending a pentecostel church for awhile, (my husbands family is pentcostel) it was kind of shocking to see there are other religions that are very similar to those of TBS/GGWO. Of course I made my way quickly out of that church and religion also, I was not about to get caught up in more legalism!

Thanks again-Shannon

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Hey Anon 141.157 4:29pm-Is that really needed!
Take that crap elsewhere, Thanks!

Shannon

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Any time Shannon. I knew your question was an honest one and if telling my story helps anyone, then I am always happy to tell it. God really does give beauty for ashes and the oil of joy for mourning, for which I am eternally grateful.

Roberta

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Its interesting because I never really knew Bonnie's story and shes been part of my family almost all my life. I even lived in her house for awhile. I have always stayed open minded knowing there was more than just what I knew or what I found out-plus I was a child part of the time and your thinking is different then. Influenced in so many ways. Not just church but family and peers,etc. Thats why this site has been so good for me. To see the other side. I still remain thankful for the good things that did come from that time, for in my experience there were some.
Mostly, my dad was saved at my graduation!

Shannon

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Roberta-just another thought. Isin't it funny that I would end up in a Pentecostal family! I hope my writing makes sense-I'm not the best at writing out what I'm thinking or trying to say-having slight dislexia doesn't help either.

Hugs, Shannon

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Roberta, What was the time period for you in Rumford? When was the funeral service at the log church in Auburn? Did you end up in Lenox?

Cara (152..@4:20)

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I think your heart is communicating just fine, my friend! I am so glad you are finding help here. I have found much peace and joy here as well. Finding old friends, hearing other testimonies of pain and triumph over the past has brought a lot of us together as well as answering some lingering questions that has given many hope.

You're a sweetheart, just as Bonnie says!

Roberta

*hugs*

[Shannon (64.12.117.20)]

Thanks Roberta!! I also wanted to tell you something-I had been meaning to type it on the other thread (the one about women) being pastors.
I suppose I still had that lingering hang-up since my Lenox days until... God showed me differently in a personal way. My husband and I were married in NYC-Central Park we had a planner (based in Florida) take care of all the arrangements. Everything was arranged and the planner told me the minister would call us to go over things. My first thought was O my gosh what if its a women! what am I going to do!! The phone rings and guess what its a woman!! Do you believe it! But as we started talking I knew that she was meant to be the minister! God used her to break that barrier I had and on top of that He gave me a little gift-she was German. (my grandmother is german and had just recently passed away)It was like I got to have her there. The symbols she wore around her neck represented all religions and that is exactly how my husband and I feel. It was perfect! Just thought I'd share!

Shannon

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Well, that is such a heartwarming little story.
All the airheads must be soaring high when they read it. GOSH! Who cares if women ministers are not biblical? Golly, if they are the same nationality as Grandma, then it MUST be meant to be! And her wearing symbols of all the world religions around her neck...how PERFECT! After all, they all lead to heaven for everyone. Golly gee, thank God (whatever god he is) that I am free from all my "lingering hangups" from that pesky old Bible..........

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I was married by a woman minister, albeit the second time around. After experiencing divorce Christian-style, I was ready to be married by a lesbian rabbi. LOL. I wasn't reactive, was I?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

It just keeps getting better! Anyone here married by a transvestite? Golly, we ARE liberated!

[Anonymous (4.139.90.26)]

NOTE: 5:47's sarcasm is a PERFECT exemplar of the "male chauvinism" so prevalent at Greater Grace World Outreach and apparently an insecure, mysogonist as well.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

Or MAYBE it's an example of being fed up with all the candy-coated unbiblical "anything goes...everything is beautiful...I'm OK,you're OK" drivel on this board. BTW, I am not a male chauvinist, I am a woman, but one who believes the Bible. And, Golly, I am not even in GG any more, but I still believe the Bible

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

I agree. You walk away from GGWO because you see the truth. Don't forget that truth routed in scripture when you get away. I'm a woman and believe women can be in leadership, but I don't go for the I'm OK, you're okay embrace all beliefs because I'm free attitude either.

[Muskyrose (205.188.117.20)]

Several years ago I did extensive research on cults while working on my Thesis.

Everything I read pointed to TBS/GGWO as a Cult.

But don't take my word for it. Google some information. Do some on your own research if you are having doubts.

A wonderful author is Margaret Singer who wrote Cults in our Midst.

There is also a book called Recovery from Cults edited by Michael D. Langone that is excellent.

The following is an exerpt taken from a book called Recovery from Cults

Robert J. Lifton who studied mind control outlined 8 conditions that result in ideological totalism. I share them with you now without any editorial from myself. I do this for the benifit of those who do not belive GG is a cult. All I ask if for you to think about it. If it makes you ask questions then seek out more information. Find out for yourself.

1. Milieu Control- The limiting of all forms of communication with the outside world.

2.Mystical Manipulation- The group is working towards a higher purpose. in other words they are the ones who are going to "change" the world. The group provides a meaning for existence.

3. Sacred Science.-The acceptance of basic group dogmas as sacred. An aura of sacred science surrounds the belief system.

4. Subordination of Person to Doctrine - The group doctrine is made to take precedence over everything a person has perviously learned. The value of the individual is subordinated to the value of the group, its work and its doctrine. We must think of others and of God before we think of ourselves. Individuality=selfishness group=unselfishness.

5. Dispensing of Existence - The line is drawn as to those who will be "saved" and those who will be "damned".

6. Personal Confession- Requiring personal confession of one's innermost fears and anxieties is another technique used in achieving thought control. Psychologically, confession has the effect of drawing people closer together and influencing them to share their own innermost thoughts and feelings.

7. The Need For Purity- To constantly strive for perfection in order to achieve the higher goal.

8. Loading the Language- Creating a lingo that assigns new meanings to familar words.

* Taken from Recovery from Cults Help for Victims of psychological and spiritual Abuse Edited by Michael d. Langone. Pgs 91-96.

>>>>>>>>>>>-----Bonnie

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Add "Twisted Scriptures" and "Toxic Faith" to any reading list for the serious students of cultic and abusive churches.

[Anonymous (4.155.30.47)]

It all rings true with the exception of number 6. We were taught to never speak of our innermost fears and anxieties. This was thought of as subjectivity, emotionalism, not living in the new man, or sentimentality. That is what is so wonderful about this board - we finally have the opportunity to share the emotions we have been suppressing for so long!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Bonnie, all excellent resources. I particularly like the one you posted because it is so concise.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

If you think about the untapped spiritual power most of us women carried within while under BS/GG. Carl and cohorts were clever to keep us in Stepfordland. But guess what Carl??... werrrre bacckkkk....... and nothing is stopping us now. (said with glee)

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

It makes then crazy when they can't control people and even crazier when the people are women.

205.188 @ 7:01

[muskyrose (205.188.117.20)]

Why is it we as Christians exhibit such a lack of understanding and tolerance towards our sisters and brothers if they CHOOSE to THINK differently?

I have been constantly amazed at the disregard I see in these threads by my fellow sisters and brothers who feel justified to slam another person because of his/her personal belief.


We are all responsible for our own personal walk with Christ. However that walk is. That's why it's called A PERSONAL WALK WITH GOD. So I'm wondering why it is people fee so free to attack. All under the guise of being Bibical. Shouldn't the test first be is this done in LOVE? Is this going to reveal LOVE? Or is Gods love only reserved for the unsaved and the saved are only supposed to recieve the law. No grace what so ever. Forget about understanding that someone may be hurt and trying to heal. (by the way this is a retorical no need to reply)

Why are we so quick to hurt our own? Especially when they may already be hurt?

>>>>>>>>>>>>-------Bonnie

[muskyrose (205.188.117.20)]

6:58 Think about confession in this way... what about when you (general you) went to the "pastors" and "confessed" aka talked, chatted to them. How do you think carl knew things. Information was gathered thru converstions. Disclosing private info to a pastor perhaps? "Sharing" personal private information that was then used against you (again general you). I saw it happen. It happend to my late brother. Does that help any?
>>>>>>>-----Bonnie

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Truth without love is brutality,

BUT....

Love without truth is sentimentality.

Christians are not free to CHOOSE to THINK differently if it goes against what the Word of God teaches. It is not slamming the people but the false beliefs are fair game to be slammed, otherwise we would not be living in love but in sentimentality. We are told to "speak the truth in love", not just accept what anyone says and call it their personal walk, "however that walk is" as you say

[in hiding (65.96.56.161)]

I'd hate to think of where I'd be today if I were judged solely on what I believed 10 yrs or 15 yrs ago. My basic beliefs remain but so much has changed. I hope I can continue to grow without the constraints of what once was experienced in TBS. I'm happy and free to love so many more people than before.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

I have been berated and mocked on a few threads here because I left TBS, studied, and was ordained. Funny thing is, I did it for myself because I knew that God was okay with it. I needed to know that all the wisdom he gave me, the ability to learn he re-energized in me when I came to SSB and the sweet spirit of his grace could mean something. I have chosen not to pastor a congregation, but have ministered to many quietly and individually over the years. My personal walk with God is one I cherish. But the men, and some women still holding fast to the legal word have been incredibly mean spirited to me here. I guess I was hoping for better, but realized the "can of worms" I was opening by saying the truth.

How beautiful, Shannon that your wedding was so blessed. The gifts of the women in the churches is an untapped source, mainly I think because men fear it, just as they feared women healers in the Dark Ages. A woman healer then was accused of witchcraft and burned, because if you could heal you were perceived as powerful. Men generally find powerful women uncomfortable to contend with. That is why they put them down. It is sad, but true. Thankfully not all mean are this way. I am happy to know a number of men who consider that we are equals together, and we learn a lot from each other.

Perhaps someday all God's children will know in practice the equality we have in the spirit. Until then I expect women like me, Bonnie and others who are strong, educated, intelligent and spiritual women continue to be targets.

Thanks Bon for sharing that from your thesis. It is so necessary to read and remember.

Roberta

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

SJ, I get the feeling you are still imprisoned by old GG teachings. No one is condoning sin. We are saying that Christ's love is extended to all. Saved, unsaved and it is a spiritual perception thing. You look at the sinner as a sinner just as yourself, you meet them as Christ would meet them. The only harsh words I see from Jesus's mouth were for the Pharisee types, the moneychangers. To the sinners he reached them with His love and compassion. I led more to my savior by my own relationship with Him, how I conducted my life in all the itty-bitty things. It is His love that draws the sinner, once drawn they desire to know this Man and it is Christ that convicts and changes. I never had to point out their sin to get them to know Him. He does that.

SJ, read some contemporary writers like Brannan Manning or Henri Nouwan and let the spirit speak.

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Anonymous (152.163.253.102) I do not understand your cruelty to people who are different than you. There are many people in the world, most of whom are not Christian, who love their Creator everybit as much as you do and are as devoted to living Godly lives. Judge not lest ye be judged is good to remember. Please be fair and if not fair than at the very least, be polite? You could be speaking to people who are hurting, who are looking for help and some caring....if they wanted self righteous put downs they would not have left GGWO. Please...try not to make it worse for them with the nastiness? It isn't necessary and may cause real harm to someone...I am assuming that is not what you want.

Thanks
Roberta

[Shannon (205.188.117.20)]

Guess it wasn't a good time to share MY LIFE- yes Anon 152.163 5:47pm. its my life not a story! And I never said those symbols lead to heaven! I do happen to know what God He is, do you? God is my judge not you! He does not look on the outside, He looks upon the heart!

Shannon

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

TO 205, 7:44pm,
What GG teachings do you feel I am still imprisoned by? Is it the teaching that the Word of God is our only standard and that we should not think outside of it? Because GG does teach that, and although I have not been in GG for several years, I have said and still say that some of their teaching is sound (such as that).
I was not talking about pointing out people's sin. I was talking about Christians not being free to choose what to think if it contradicted the Word. That is not only a GG teaching, it is a scriptural one.
I agree with you that Jesus reached out to sinners with love and compassion. But he also never gave them the idea that "anything goes as long as there is love". He was very specific in what He taught from the Word. He spoke of the way being narrow, and no one coming to God but through Him (I don't think he carried symbols of all the pagan religions either). His teachings were so offensive and controversial to some that they wanted to crucify Him. He didn't try to make everyone feel good in their personal idea of God.
It seems to me like many on this board have a very watered down concept of Christianity.

[muskyrose (205.188.117.20)]

...and it seems to me that many on here are so quick to judge and cast stones they refuse to see anything else. Why is that ? You accuse your brethern of having a watered down faith and yet you don't know them. You haven't walked in their shoes. You negate it as sentamentality, when in actuality it is a lack of empathy on your part. How sad.

You say Christians have no right to Choose. HELLO!!!!! DID YOU EVER HEAR OF FREE WILL!!!! It's ALL a matter of choice.

And as for thinking... Honey, if you aren't thinking then you have a serious problem because you should be thinking about everything. God gave you a mind and it is capable of amazing things... (like original thoughts and ideas). We are allowed to use our minds. It's OK.

Christianity isn't that complicated.. (we make it way to complicated).
I love the scriptures, don't get me wrong, BUT I also THINK FOR MYSELF because I have the FREEDOM to do that. Something I wasn't allowed to do while I was shackled with cult thinking.

We do have a choice yes, we can choose how we want to think. For me. I CHOOSE to LIVE and THINK in the FREEDOM of GODS FORGIVENESS, GRACE & LOVE.

I don't know about about some of you but my spirit feels so grieved when I see my sisters and brothers who are already wounded, come on here searching for answers only to be slammed with a harshness that doesn't aid in anyones healing. How is that scriptual?

To Shannon,
Sweetie, Thank you for what you shared. It came from your heart and that is ALL that matters. Talking about it is part of the healing process. Don't let ANYONE rob you of that HEALING.

>>>>>>>>>-------Bonnie

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Bonnie, do you have an email you posted? I love your heart!
CARA

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Bonnie,
I said that many things I read on here is a watered down Christianity. I also said that as Christians we are told to think according to the Word of God. I am not the one who set that standard. Read Matthew 4:4.
Yes, we have free will but to choose with God it should not be outside of His word. Yes, we use our own minds but that also should not contradict His word. We have the mind of Christ through the Word,not through "original" thoughts outside of it. I'm sorry if that seems a little confining to you...it actually is quite the opposite, and as I said, I'm not making up the rules here.
Using the Word of God as your standard is not cult thinking, in fact it protects you from cult thinking and also from every other deception in our own fallen minds.
You say you love the scriptures, but also think for yourself. The two do not have to be opposed. God gave us the Word as truth and guidance.
Psalm 119 says it pretty well.

[unfooled student (64.12.117.20)]

Hi again. I posted a few weeks agao and just wanted to add something. I know my stepmom talked about Creation Festival. There is one in the east and one in the west. I know that lots of people from GGWO think that contemporary Christian music or Christian rock is from the devil, but I'm telling you it isn't.I just thought I'd post a link. I think we are going this year just for time to relax and renew and have fun of course. They have great music with tons of bands and styles of music, lots of family stuff, prayer teams, fellowship, GOOD SOUND teachings from all over the country not GGWO. Oh and an added bonus of clean showers. ha, ha. I just had to throw that in there because there is camping there.Here is a link if anyone in the area is interested.
http://www.gospelcom.net/creation/east/

[muskyrose (152.163.253.102)]

Cara you can reach me at muskyrose@aol.com feel free to e-mail me.

SJ I shall leave you with this: and I quote:

" Create in me a clean heart O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of my salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit." Psalm 51 10-12

Proverbs 2 1-6
My son, if thou wilt recieve my words, and hide my commandments with thee: So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up they voice for understanding; If thou seekest her a silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD giveth wisdom; out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Psalm 149:4&5

For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people; he will beautify the meek with salvation.
V5. Let the saints be joyful in glory; let them sing aloud upon their beds.

With that I'm off to bed m self it's getting late and I'm tired. Sj I understand what you are saying and I hope you try to understand what I am saying also. I am agreeing with you, honestly I am. I just think you are forgetting one itsy bitsy, teeny weenie thing... that we, as Christians have the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us. So with that said read the book of First John I think he explains it in words you may understand.

Chapter 4 vs 6-8 have always been favorites of mine.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>---------Bonnie

[Shannon (68.170.95.105)]

Thanks Bonnie-I really wanted to support Roberta!

To let everyone know there is another side-what works for me does not work for everyone, but I have choosen a little more tolerence in my life and it has opened so many doors to be able to reach out to so many types of people. I have had the oportunity to witness to so many because of that. I use what God has given me to use-and He has given me many gifts. Gifts I did not even know I had! Thanks to many who listen and see beyond the flesh to the heart!

Shannon

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

Sha, I have had the same experience! I am so thankful for your long presence on this forum! Cara

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Okay, let's make this a real episode of Oprah - I almost NEVER say these things BUT -

I think you are really wonderful, compassionate, intelligent, strong women who faithfully practice true, Godly lovingkindess. I have been impressed by all of you at one time or another for so many reasons. You inspire me and challenge me. You confirm for me that intelectual growth feeds spirtual growth. What a blessing to find you!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

For Anon 64.12 on 6/10 @ 6:42

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God." - Adolph Hitler

[Cordell Walker (66.90.181.249)]

Folks, one of the problems of being in GGWOutrage is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The "baby" is the Christ revealed in the scriptures, the bathwater is how Carl taught. I think another problem is some folks in GGWO only had the bathwater and not the baby at all, and now they just got new bathwater and it is now dirty too. Put that on Oprah.

[sis (24.218.6.0)]

123

[sis (24.218.6.0)]

TB does indeed S, just not at TBS

grace is great, it just does't exist at GGWO

[Anonymous (216.183.185.140)]

Clever SIS I must say, and tragically true.

[sis (24.218.6.0)]

Is there anyone out there from the Springfield area that were around during the Cliftwood Street era? Some of us hung in there from those very early days and didn't make the break until TBS was given the boot and went to Westfield.

I din't realize the extent to which the indoctrination took hold of people in the Springfield area until the break up. At that time the true colors were there to see if one wished to look.

I kind of thought that the true devotees moved to Lenox or later Baltimore, but I was wrong. The virus had spread out into the "branch ministries". It was probably worse in some locations than in others. We thought that we were jsut loosely affiliated, but it turned out that for some the affiliation was not loose at all.

Of course we knew that the Shibleys were taking attendence at Christian psychology class (translation TBS indoctrination class) and forwarding the info to the grand pubar, but we kind of snickered at that. I guess some took it seriously.

The pressure was also on to attend convention in July, but that event was a real drag. Anyone who enjoyed that deal was a real glutten for punishment.

So, I again come back to an earlier point. It would be fun to organized a reunion of sorts. Yes fun. That is allowed. Anyone game?

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

Cordell Walker -

I really like the new name GGWO - "Greater Grace World Outrage". Wait until this thing goes international. How about The Greater Grace International World Outrage ? -- "GGIWO"

Maybe we should start a new thread and rename everything.

Eye Witness

[Anonymous (4.139.15.221)]

"World" and "International" are synonyms.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Wow, if you can pick up on that one, your redunancy alarm must go off when Stevens just looks in the direction of a microphone.

[Anonymous (4.139.15.221)]

"ring-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling"

[Eye Witness (65.96.153.178)]

There is talk that Greater Grace Church in Westfield, MA does not want Gays to go there. The church is only for those with different sins than that. They actively proselytize in Northampton, MA (Lesbian-Ville) but require repentance before any of theses types can attend services. What would Jesus do?

[RJ (141.154.186.91)]

Jesus broke bread with publicans and sinners, didn't require sexual preference information from the crowd who listened to the sermon on the mount and he taught the parable of the Good Samaratin.

Filtering out any group of people from hearing God's word is shameful and to my mind more a sin than any other.

Roberta

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

What the heck are they ministering in Northhamptom if they don't want the gays in their church! Oh I know, so they can SAY they ministered to the gays. It's always about the image and never about the heart. How sad!


They build their front parts

Like St. Mark's or Westminster Abbey.

And then as if to fool the Lord

They leave the back parts shabby!

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

What about Swansea, Ma?!!!!

[Anonymous (65.96.153.178)]

What is going on in Swansea, Ma?

[Anonymous (4.155.30.27)]

Swansea had a big split a few years back. Martel disaffiliated from Baltimore because of the influence of one of the pastors who really hated Stevens. After they disaffiliated, that very pastor conspired against Martel to split the church. He left and took many, many with him. It took a while, but Martel returned to his spiritual daddy, and of course, Daddy welcomed him with open arms. Everyone in Baltimore thought that Stevens was just so awesome to forgive a man who had hurt him so much. "That is just like the heart of God," we all gushed. Martel worships Stevens when in Baltimore, but from his own pulpit doesn't even mention him. He barely even tells them he is going to Baltimore. In short, he really downplays the affiliation, and Stevens' tapes or booklets aren't even sold in the bookstore there.

Whenever Martel preaches in Baltimore, he exalts Stevens and has said that he found out who his real friends were during his trial. Of course P. Stevens turned out to be his very best friend, one who would never leave him or forsake him.

I wonder what P. Martel would say if I told him all the AWFUL (and I mean awful) things P. Stevens told me about P. Martel after I came here from Swansea? I wonder how he would react to the fact that Stevens was pumping me and others from Swansea in order to get information to use against him?

At the time it really bothered me, but because it was PASTOR, I simply dismissed it, thinking it had something to do with the "table of organization" or whatever. If PASTOR said it, them it had to be ok.

I have wonderful friends still in the church there and they seem to be doing fine. They know absolutely nothing about what is going on in Baltimore.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

4.155,
Thank you for that explanation. I always wondered why I had read an article on the web about how Pastor Martel's ministry was no longer affiliated with GG (it was an article about the jail ministry). I visited his church a couple of years ago and, as you say, there were no books by Pastor Stevens in the bookstore. But then I would hear P. Martel call Grace Hour, and he would also be at conventions preaching. So it was very confusing as to where he stood. Your post explains it.

[Anonymous (68.33.184.79)]

4.155
You practically gave your identity away with your post...are you anonymous or have you already given your name?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

There was a problem in Swansea a few years ago
involving funds for expanding the church. Some
of the money was missing or something. A lot of
people left because of it, including some in leadership. Does
anyone know what happened?

[Anonymous (4.155.0.16)]

68.33
I don't think so. There are at least a dozen people I know of who could have written that post.
Probably more.

I remain anonymous for reasons that are very important to me and to people I love dearly.

[sis (24.218.6.0)]

I am rather new to the forum, and I have found it to be interesting. Because most writers seem to be cloaked it is sometimes hard to follow.

I was involved with the TBS church in Springfield from the beginning until the split and TBS move to Westfield.

Realizing that everyone sees things through their own lenses I still find it difficult to understand why many find it so difficult to leave the TBS cult after they know that their involvement is wrong. Is it fear? Guilt maybe? Has the brainwashing taken hold that strongly?

Since I was in so long and am completely out I can testify that breaking out is possible. As I sat in church this morning my mind was wandering a bit at one point when I rejoiced that I was not involved with TBS.

For those who may be reading from Westfield...I would encourage you to get out. Freedom is a good thing. Meditate in Gal 5:1. I'm not one to take things out of context, and because of my long involvement with TBS I am alert to out of context scripture manipulation. That being said Gal 5:1 is clear. You are free. Now act on your freedom and get out.

For you TBS spies I would say get a life.

Have a good one!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

To 64.12.117.20 who posted Saturday 6/19/04 at 7:50pm

Yes a number of people left Swansea and ended up being counseled through the New England Institute of Religious Research run by Pastor Bob Pardon and his wife Judy. Both have Doctorates in counseling and are very knowledgeable about Martel, GGWO, and their abuses. You can find them on the web at NEIRR, or just google NEIRR. I would suggest calling and directing your questions to Mr. Pardon

[Anonymous (207.44.134.33)]

Bored in Maine

[Anonymous (64.246.58.26)]

To the poster who is interested in the younger aspects of the viewing audiance I would suggest that we not use Dave's King James Translation: It has bible verses such as: For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Which suggests that penis size is important. Or that the amount of ejackulate that a person has is important as well. Issue? Issue thats an issue! Fleshly thoughts like the size of a best? For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. Now that is a thought from the KJV maybe the amplified does a better job? For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. I don't know maybe not? For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

#

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

.

[Anonymous (141.154.186.91)]

.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Marr is behind the destroying the board

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

the other sites that factnet has going here have many anon posters and some of the stuff I've read is not much different that what is posted on the GGWO threads. The only difference is in the attacks on the threads.....seems no one else on any other site is using so much time and energy to stop it.

[Anonymous (24.88.43.233)]

Lee go read a site the size of the GGWO one, the only close is the Scinetology group and no its not even close to the same.

The childish stuff here by both sides is not the same level.

The formatting garbage is not the same.

The % of anon is not the same. At least people get email addresses and use handles.

Your doing a disservice by comparing us to a small store front church that there may be 100 posts.

The scientolgy group is much better to compare.

Neil

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

bumping this up

[sis (216.41.79.170)]

Pleeeeze tell me, if you are afraid of something, what are you afraid of? Please be specific. Thanks.

[Anonymous (216.220.232.122)]

I know this post is "Outraged in Mass", but since Mass is so close to Maine, any insight to TBS in South Berwick? I understand Pastor Brown is ultra-devoted to Stevens and would never turn his back. For those of you who've left GGWO, how did you do it? Did you experience repercussions in any way from the pastors or the folks who just wanted to praise and worship the One true God? Or do these pastors think Stevens is the one to worship? Counsel needed. Thanks.

[Fear Not (141.157.104.97)]

anyone who does or thinks carl is the one to worship needs their heads examined...you shouldn't fear walking away from a man or a church but you should fear being sucked in to brainwashing tactics...just walk away from it and pray to God and ask him for direction in which church to attend

God, grant me the Serenity
To accept the things I cannot change
Courage to change the things I can
And wisdom to know the difference

[sis (216.41.79.170)]

If you care about what the brainwashers or the brainwashed say about you, you might have a problem that goes beyond leaving TBS.

On a (sarcastic for those of you in Baltimore) good note you will have tearful, quiet, prayers said for you out loud in the all night prayer meetings or at the raps. You know, further brainwashing for those you leave behind.

Get out now and don't look back.

[Anonymous (216.220.232.122)]

Thanks Fear Not and sis. From what I understand about Baltimore, things in Maine are not NEARLY as bad up here. But I DO know that these pastors are under Stevens' teachings so therefore, so am I. How very very sad it all is. My prayers will be for those "left behind". Thanks and God bless us all.

[Anonymous (65.78.22.200)]

I am a former Framingham/Marlboro GGCF member under Jim Morrison. Was I crazy or was this like a High School Popular Kids atmosphere there? Problems in the church that people had were openly "gossiped" about (by the people in charge), belittling and degrading
tacticts to those who did not bow to every word preached by Jim were employed. Compassion may as well have been a word of unknow origin. When it was good it was good when it was bad it WAS AWFUL.
Anyone else???

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I knew Jim and Dawn Morrison when he was a young
guy in his first church in Beverly, Mass.
He wasn't like that at all then, but when you're
under TBS as long as him, the delegated authority
teaching becomes a part of you.
The branches were where the authority problem
was most apparent. In Lenox, you heard it but
the place was big. On a team, there were only a
few of you and ANY difference between you and
the Pastor was considered rebellion. It was easy
to watch you for signs of "not respecting authority." Sort of like working in a big place
where you can slack off a little from time to
time vs. a few small with a few people place where you are constantly watched.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I haven't seen or spoken to Jim or Dawn for years but I lived in the dorm with him and she was one of my most favorite persons at SB--what a great sense of humor.

I wonder if Jim is not one of the remaining guys with character still inside GG, or is he a "follower" like so many others?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I perceive a "follower." During the height of the drug crisis and Pastor's absence. He was one of the frequent visiting pastors brought down to cheerlead. One service he spoke a rousing message and made us repeat over and over again "The gates of hell will not prevail against us." I found these types the biggest hypocrites of all. The church was suffering, the staff in misery and some guy gets up behind the pulpit trying to convince us everything is wooonderfulll. Gets back in his car and goes home. Cheerleading mission accomplished. Curtain of the great Wizard ofOz securely fastened, Toto removed for the moment.

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

Sorry to hear that.

[Izziesoul (65.78.22.200)]

I am sorry too. There were times when he was a wonderful orator. He was funny, and I do believe in there is a man of God, who has been confused as the rest of us. Dawn was a wonderful and fun person as you say. But she had bouts with horrible depression and sometimes there was a
bad feeling about what was causing it. I do pray for them, because as I said, I do believe somewhere there is a true Man of God.

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Dawn had severe postpartum depression after the birth of her daughter. This is quite common and has biological, hormonal causes.....so much for the "bad feeling" about the cause. Dawn is a sweetheart and Pastor Morrison is a man of character and integrity, yes, a true man of God. I have known them both for years and they are my friends.
To the 2:28 pm poster...maybe you saw P.Morrison as "cheerleading" and trying to convince you everything was "wooonderfulll". Maybe reality was he was building up the church with a truth that is scriptural during a very trying time.

[Isabella (207.7.198.202)]

Dear SJ,
Maybe he finally 'sold-out' to the so called church that is GGWO. I love this guy too, but he is cooked (fully indoctrinated) but he must know, at the very least, what I know about this 'ministry'. How can he continue if he knows what has gone on and what is still going on? Does he embrace the status quo or does he care about the people? He has to decide. If he cares, he will speak out. He will preach the Gospel and he will confront Stevens. He can't do it. It's too difficult, and as much as I love him, I have to admit that he is just like the rest. he does not care about the people. This organization DOES NOT CARE. If you do not have charity.....

[SJ (205.188.117.20)]

Isabella,
There is more going on in GGWO than what is on this board. It is not all negative. I know many don't like to hear this, but God is still working in and through GG despite all the problems. There are still many godly people there. Pastor Morrison obviously chooses to focus on different things than you do.
You say he is just like "the rest"....who are they? You say he needs to confront P.Stevens...who are you to know what he needs to do? And you say he does not care about the people....I don't think you can speak for him or what is in his heart. You are voicing your own opinions based on outward appearances and an understanding that is not omniscent.
Oh, and P.Morrison DOES preach the gospel, every week at his church.

[Anon B (205.188.117.20)]

The ends do not justify the means.

[Anonymous (4.139.90.119)]

Cordell,

The last time I attended a GGWO church service this past fall 2003; Pastor Jim Morrison was a guest speaker...unfortunately, after hearing "Pastor this" and "Pastor that" I decided to time how many times he mentioned "Pastor" in a one minute span... 12 times at 30 seconds!

This was the final straw in my decision to depart from GGWO...when keeping the memory of a mere man alive becomes MORE IMPORTANT than Jesus Christ, well...that's THAT'S ENOUGH OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SS (24.131.172.186)]

Do any of you critics ever think what it would feel like to have you and your wife scrutinized and crticized, personal weaknesses and all, by a bunch of people hiding behind their anonyminity?

And to people like Pr. M and Dawn? Look at yourselves for once for crying out loud!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Anon B

"The ends do not justify the means."

Seems like this one concept is the chief "cancer" at GGWO. I recall John Dean telling President Nixon about the "cancer growing on the presidency". Perhaps this "ends justifying the means" has a large impact upon the skewed doctrines that have caused so much heartache for members and ex-members alike.

Something to ponder...

[Bob Brinton (141.154.165.67)]

I'm not anonymous. This is my real name. My brother David used to play piano in Lenox and for Pastor Quinlan in Wilmington. I was an usher and previously had sung with the Finished Work (not to be confused with the Finished Work Singers). I have nothing to say against Pastor Morrison or Dawn. I liked them. But that doesn't mean that accusations against either of them are false. I just don't know. I liked Dawn. She kind of reminded me of a deer. Something kind of mystical about her. Those huge eyes. We don't have to have good reasons to like people. May God bless them both with the most appropriate things for their way. Bob

[Izzysoul (65.78.22.200)]

I have prayed and thought earnestly before again posting on this board. What I have read here has been so disturbing and so sad that even a non-believer would have trouble not being affected by all of it. But for those of us who do believe and have been a part of this church be it Baltimore or an offspring it is heartbreaking.
Luckily for most of it we are strong enough to know that God IS NOT Carl Stevens and that our faith is not without basis.
When I first posted, I should have been more explicit in my wording. Pastor and Dawn Morrison are good if not wonderful people. After meeting Carl Stevens and Paul Stevens and for several years listening to them on the radio, I would often be thankful that it was Jim Morrison and not them who were leading our church.
However, much of what has been written here about the "cult like" tendecies (sp) do exist at GGCF
(Greater Grace Christian Fellowship) as well.
Many of the members are TBS/GGWO trainees. The
baggage of that ministry has been indoctrined in them so deeply that they have instituted here as well. Although it is probably without malice of thought on their part, being engulfed for so many years with it they are brain washed. And their have been people who are newer members who have embraced it because of their own agendas.
I truly think that Pastor Morrison, Pastor Van Doren, and others are swimming against the tide.
And he too has been there so very long, and feels a great sense of loyalty to Carl that he feels trapped in a difficult situation.
When I mentioned Dawns depression it was to that fact I was thinking. That they are both watching their lives works and beliefs coming under scrutiny.
Please understand that knowing that Pastor was taught by this man makes it very hard to know what was really God's doctrine and what wasn't.
It is very hard to discern where the deception and truth parted ways. Years of going over tapes,
notes, memories, would not even begin to unravel what missteps were taken.
I did witness some very un Christian like behaviour towards members that were perceived as
"damaged goods", and those exact words were used to describe them, left me questioning a lot of things. And then what I didn't understand I would ask about and was shut off.
There are some wonderful and Godly people at GGCF and like all of you I pray for them.
I someday will be able to tell the whole story. But I do have a question for you, if you could answer me this. I keep reading that it is wonderful that GGWO and affiliates are amazing soul winners. And I know this is true and that is the most important thing. But what good does it do to win souls that will eventually have to be "deprogrammed" so to speak and may never truly understand God's will and doctrine in their lives?
What about the souls that will be lost and perhaps forever hardened againsst Christianity due to the misappropiation of God's word in the name of Carl Stevens? I am just missing how that helps.
In Christ Always

Izziessoul

[Bob Brinton (141.154.165.67)]

Well; it helps that they're not lost for eternity. And they do receive the Holy Spirit if they are indeed being brought into the Kingdom of God's dear Son. We have to pray and hope that He will give them appropriate ways out and His direction for their way. Part of the so-called Great Commission (who on earth came up with that term?) is discipling and teaching Jesus' words accurately. Jesus never meant for us to fill new converts with lies. But if people turn to Him, He will attend to them. He is the Great Shepherd.

I like it that souls are being brought to Christ. I don't, however, at all go along with the blood on the hands thing. That scripture was written to a prophet to the people that were God's, not the other nations. He was to warn his own people; which is one of the things this message board is for. People don't go to hell because you don't witness to them. To preach that is a fear tactic. You have to always bear in mind that Carl Stevens has a salesman's mentality. Much of the witnessing that went on when I was there was an attempt to manipulate people into accepting what you said; the end justifying the means. It's not fair to blame that all on Stevens. A lot of what people did on the streets and at their jobs and such was on their own. But those who buy the philosophy of the program will tend to reproduce what they've been taught. That's why Cordell is so adamant about doctrinal details. It's not that he wants everyone to line up with him. He's trying to correct misteaching. Bob

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Izziesoul, your last two paragraphs especially hit home with me. I am of the belief that TBS/GGWO is a mind control cult that uses Jesus' salvation for their own means to gain control over people's souls and rob them of their money. Your questions are the answers, it does no good to win souls and then have these souls robbed of their spirit and purses. Stevens began this ministry with the intent of using Christianity for his own personal gain.

If you look at the history of this cult it keeps repeating the same old evil acts without ever even considering repentance. Some think TBS/GGWO started out serving Jesus then went astray. I am of the opinion that TBS/GGWO always intentionally wanted to use Christianity to brainwash and control people. One thing that always has repulsed me is the way this cult splits up families if one of the partners wants to leave. There are hundreds of incindents where people were used and discarded by TBS/GGWO.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.137)]

Louise, If you're right, then the anointing we experienced there would have been satanic. A case could be made for that if you think in terms of Hitler. If you watch and listen to speeches Hitler made, you can feel the emotional heat of them. The inner sense of it is similar to an anointing from God. But I don't personally go this far. I think he did speak under an anointing, but that it's probably long gone by now. As I've indicated elsewhere, the last time I heard him speak he was talking about vitamins and fruit juices with no discernable anointing at all. And that must be about ten years ago. In either case, everyone should get out and close up the shop. They can win souls in other ministries. Love, Bob

[Cara (152.163.253.102)]

This is an excerpt from a recent email. It addresses the effect of the TBS experience had on our inner man, our personality.. it is heartbreaking to think about, especially when you realize it could have been so different if it truly was a pure Christian experience...


I know completely about the personality change in Lenox.. it happened to me too.. I went from a fun-loving, people-person that could jump on a table at the Irish Pub on the Cape and do an Irish jig without too much coaxing..lol. I went to Lenox and became a scared, quiet mouse with a low low self image because I was not anywhere near as spiritual as say ..you!! I look back and see we all were playing roles and trying to be what we were preached at to be and it was NOT working!! I was deathly afraid of you and you probably saw my fear and discounted me as unspiritual and so the cycle of affirmation of our roles continued. Just for that alone, the church should go away! So 25 years later here we are as great friends who appreciate and celebrate our unique differences and it brings us joy and strength and encouragement to be ourselves.. that was the way it was supposed to be!!

Happy 4th.... the stone's been rolled away, it's Independence Day!!!... (Martina McBride)

[margo (64.12.117.20)]

well said miss cara

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

I remember being at the Billy Graham crusade at BU stadium in the 70's the night Billy Graham's ministry would not let TBS participate in helping the souls that got saved. I felt so awful. They told us we were welcome to stay for the meeting of which we did. Billy Graham's ministry knew enough to not let new 'born again' Christians go near TBS. It would have been quite difficult for Stevens to later refer to Billy Graham as someone who is persecuting TBS because TBS is on fire for Jesus.

[margo (152.163.253.102)]

i remember that too louise. that is pretty bad not to be able to assist at a graham crusade... shoulda taken a cue from billy g back then

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

The important thing to remember is that it is Christ who does the saving--not Carl Stevens or any of us. God uses whoever he wants whenever he wants to initiate regeneration--but it is ALWAYS the Holy Spirit who regenerates us as believers. There are many Holy Spirit filled believers at GG. That is because of God the Holy Spirit and may be perhaps IN SPITE of Carl Stevens.

"Php.1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. 19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death."


"Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil have chief authority in the Ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by his commission and authority, we may use their Ministry, both in hearing the Word of God, and in receiving the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished from such as by faith, and rightly, do receive the Sacraments ministered unto them; which be effectual, because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be ministered by evil men.

Nevertheless, it appertaineth to the discipline of the Church, that inquiry be made of evil Ministers, and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences; and finally, being found guilty, by just judgment be deposed."
From the Thirty Nine Articles of Religion
Church of England

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.137)]

Yes. I agree Cordell. But I still say that there was a time when Stevens was speaking with an anointing, and that it was from God. I don't think the anointing was just on the listeners. I don't think that every word he said even under the anointing was from God. What do you think? Bob

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

I think we totally misunderstood the concept of "anointing."

The word is God's and the Spirit is God. What credit goes to us, unworthy servants?

How stupid we were to blather over Carl, "Oh Pastor, that was so anointed."

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.137)]

Okay; let me put it differently. I believe it possible to be 'full of the Spirit' and still speak words which are inaccurate. What say you?

[Cordell (66.90.181.249)]

God knows he deals with creatures whose frame is dust, yes.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Define for me an annointing? Is the Holy Spirit's annointing only for the pastor? Is Carl a trained pastor? What are his credentials? What credentials are required for an annointing? Will the Holy Spirit withold this annointing if the Word is not lierally followed? Is it withheld if the man in the pulpit is self ordained? If not, then why must the office of a pastor be so gender specific? Or for that matter is the annointing denominationally specific? Are the Anabaptists and Mormon pastors not annointed preachers? They interpret the bible differently, does that mean none but literalists are annointed? Can the annointing be given to one not scripturally precise? If yes, why is it given at all?

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

Don't you need some 'liquid waves of love' for an anointing?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Isn't that like hot flashes?

[Anonymous (149.174.164.83)]

Yes, but it only happens in the woods.. near a pond..

..Best line on factnet? Jim Faucett writing he could never picture Pastor walking in the woods, never mind alone in the the woods! Pastor without entourage? Never!

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

Some scatterings....

Very little is said in the NT about this annointing.
Mostly the annointing refers to Jesus Christ.
However, we are said to be annointed 2 Cor 1:21 - which I think means 'set apart, consecrated to an office'
Heb 1:9...we recieve the oil of gladness

Ps 105:15 touch not mine annointed refers to Christ!
Ps 61:1 speaking of Christ...the Lord has annointed me to preach etc....

1 Jn 2:20 the unction (chrisma) is from God.
Could mean an enablement, more likely an office

As far as the sense its used in GGWO as a time when and while the presence of God is manifested along with truth...during preaching...I think God does do this.
Probably it would be better to say, "I could really sense the presence of God with us..." than to say "wow, that was annointed"

As far as ordination, I do believe that others can testify to a persons gifts and abilities in ministry. Actually its very important. As long as the credentials Paul gave to Timothy and Titus are in order as well.

Those credentials use, man, husband etc...makes it pretty clear that the office of an elder or deacon are males. (sorry Roberta)

I think the presence of God is only manifested (Paul refers to this 1 Cor 2:4 'a demonstration of the spirit and power) when Christ is being duly honored and truly taught.
The Spirit only bears witness to Christ!
Jn 16:13,14 the Spirit guides us into truth and glorifies Christ.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

"Those credentials use, man, husband etc...makes it pretty clear that the office of an elder or deacon are males. (sorry Roberta)"


I am wondering what Jack and Lee might have to say on this issue...I think they mentioned their church has women preachers.

Interesting.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.137)]

I just want to point out here that the way the word anointed is used at Greater Grace can be found in much of the Church at large. It is not something Stevens originated, I'm sure. You know, I know words are important; but sometimes we get caught up in the meanings of words rather than what people are actually trying to say. We don't really have to correct every jot and tittle. When I used the word anointed, I meant the discernable presence of God and His participation in the preaching. You know how it is. You feel it in 'good' worship or prayer. You feel it sometimes when you speak to others or write them notes. You feel as if you are being given words or vision from the Spirit. It can be very physical. You know that feeling of heat. I know I'm supposed to be hypersensitive to the word 'feel', but the word doesn't just have to do with sappy emotions. And emotions are part of the way you think, anyway. To 'feel' is to sense, to discern, to receive impartation from the Spirit. It can mean many different things. Bob

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Yes, Roberta, what Jack and Lee have to say would definitely overrule what the Bible has to say

[PG (69.67.254.38)]

True,
Not every jot and tittle need correction. While it may be better to rephrase something, the hearer can be discerning too. Like when my two-yr old says Ienagowidyudaaaddd - I know he means I want to go with you, Dad.

PG

[Anonymous (67.23.200.67)]

Any GG churches in Massachusetts make an "Announcement for Reconciliation"?

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

pray

[Anonymous (67.23.200.67)]

Back during the church split in Springfield, GG initiated a reconciliation service after the GG leadership lied, trashed those who left, said people were dying of cancer because of leaving their spiritual father. They should have left their gifts at the altar and got right with the people they wronged, before trying to "worship" with them. The then leadership, Chet, John Schirmer, Steve Ryan never felt they did anything wrong because they could justify lying to the church because they did it for "Pastor".
Pastor Stevens thanked them many times publically for their loyalty and they all became pastors!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Another case of the ends justifying the means...that's terrible.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

theres a thing called godly sorrow and then theres worldly sorrow, worldly sorrow is when somebody is sorry because --they got caught doing something wrong...

godly sorrow would be repentence and believing what God says in his word and being obedient to do what it says..

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

"Another case of the ends justifying the means...that's terrible"

No, another case of someone posting something as fact, when the actual people involved aren't here to give their side or defend themselves. Were you there in Springfield, 67, and if you were, are you giving just your own biased view of things?

[Anonymous (80.74.209.248)]

Is Martell with GG?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

He says he isn't, but shows up in Baltimore praising Pastor Stevens. It is hard to know.
Stevens is NEVER mentioned in Swansea.

[Anonymous (67.23.200.67)]

No, another case of someone posting something as fact, when the actual people involved aren't here to give their side or defend themselves. Were you there in Springfield, 67, and if you were, are you giving just your own biased view of things?

I was there. It's a fact.
Pastor Stevens always claimed he was neutral and wouldn't give advice to anyone about what was happening in the church. Chet, John, and Steve continually assured the church they were not being directed by P. Stevens. After the split was final Pastor Stevens spoke at their "church" that he claimed he never encouraged them to start and thanked them for their loyalty. He made a special point to let everyone know that he was in constant communication with them the entire time. It's on tape. Someone was not honest.

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

To answer the question about P.Martel, someone posted an explanation on this thread on June 19, 5:16 pm.
Pastor Martel was at convention this year and spoke often. He is most definitely affiliated with Greater Grace

[TED SCIBELLI (170.63.4.247)]

THE CHURCH IN SPFLD, GLORIOUS GOSPEL CHURCH, WAS A VIBRANT CHURCH. I WAS THERE FROM 1976-1994.I THANK GOD FOR STEVE STRATOS. AND HIS MINISTRY.I SAW OURSELVES AS A NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH THAT WAS ALWAYS OPEN TO SPEAKERS FROM ALL TYPES OF EVANGELICAL MINISTRIES. STEVE STRATOS WAS NOT YOUR TYPICAL BIBLE SPEAKS PASTOR. AT THIS TIME THE SPFLD CHURCH WAS BEING BLESSED BY GOD. MAYBE THERE WAS FEELINGS ABOUT OUR CHURCH THAT WERE HIDDEN BECAUSE WE WERE SO FRUITFUL. TO ME IT SEEMED THAT WHEN THERE WAS A FAILING MORALLY BY STEVE ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE BETWEEN GLORIOS GOSPEL CHURCH AND BALTIMORE. ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT WE WERE MALIGNED BEYOND BELIEF. THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL CHURCH CONTINUES TO FUNCTION AND GROW. GOD DID NOT STOP THE WORK THAT HE BEGAN IN 1974. I CONTINUE TO SERVE IN THIS CHURCH. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY CHRISTIANS CANNOT AGREE TO DISAGREE .I WAS THERE FOR ALL THE MEETINGS BACK THEN AND I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE GREIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT BOTHER THOSE WHO TWIST THE TRUTH.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Ted,
How did you all handle the situation with Steve? Could you explain what you mean by 'all hell broke loose' between Baltimore and GGC? As you may remember I was in Spfld during part of '80 and '81. Who is your pastor there now? Whatever happened to the properties on Madison Ave.? Is there any relationship with Hogarth's church or Mawaka's? I remember you as being a great guy and one who loves the Lord.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

You spoke after Pastor Stevens "five men died because they went against my church" speech at the Friday night convention service, yes? He said, in preface to his remarks that you would tell the congregation how you also killed five or was it six...he actually asked you the number, as I recall, men in your ministry.

Please will you elaborate and comment upon the now infamous Friday night session? Btw, the tapes are altered, but I heard it for myself.

I remember you and Pastor Stratos from my years in Lenox. I admired and respected Pastor Stratos then, and my respect for him hasn't changed no matter the present circumstances. He was a good friend to me at a critical point in my life, and gave me Christ in his friendship when others only gave condemnation, and for that I will ever be grateful. But I am am curious as to your "take" about the Friday night convention message, if this is really Pastor S. who is posting.

Thank you

[Anonymous (70.16.13.185)]

Roberta,
Pastor Scibelli's first name is Steven. Its not him that posted as "Ted" Scibelli.

[Anonymous (70.16.13.185)]

What you heard said Friday night of convention week was true, he (Pastor Stevens) did indeed say what you wrote. Why? Who knows. Yes it was edited from the tapes too. I think its part of the dementia problem as to why it happened to begin with. Somethings we may never have answers to at all.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Sorry to have made the mistake about the names. I apologize Ted.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Ted is Steve's brother. Could you tell us more about Glorious Gospel? Are you still on State St? I have family moving back to Springfield and they will NOT be attending Wayne's church.

I have wonderful memories of Glorious Gospel. Steve and Leslie were good friends. My husband attended the first study in West Springfield. He started the bible study in Enfield back in 1979. Dave Michalek brought Rich Mahoney to the Enfield study after a tornado ripped through their work place and Rich decided maybe it was time to get to know God.

Thank you for posting Ted! I would love to hear more about how Glorious Gospel.

Jeannie Byrne (Cara)

[Anonymous (151.203.164.14)]

The Glorious Gospel Church at 627 State Street is
being truly blessed by God under the Pastors of
Jeff Chandler and Ted Scibelli.

[T.SCIBELLI (4.157.86.231)]

GLORIOUS GOSPEL CHURCH IS STILL ON 627 STATE ST. THE HOUSE ON MADISON IS STILL PROPERTY OF THE CHURCH. THE SCHOOL BUILDING ON MADISON WAS SOLD WHEN THE SCHOOL CLOSED 2 YEARS AGO.WE ARE AN INDEPEDENT CHURCH NOW. WE DISAGREED WITH HOW GREATER GRACE TOLD US TO COVER OVER STEVES SIN .THEN WHEN WE ALSO DECIDED TO BREAK OUR AFFILIATION WITH BALTIMORE THEN THEY TURNED THEIR ADVISE ON US AND SAID WE COVERED UP THE SITUATION.WE KNEW THE LORD WAS LEADING US IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.I WISH THAT AT OUR FINAL MEETING WITH BALTIMORE IN SPFLD IN THE CHAPEL THAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN VERY CLER WHY WE WERE LEAVING. AT THE TIME I WAS A DEACON AND ONLY ONE VOICE. WE JUST DID NOT WANT TO GET INTO A PUBLIC SCREAMING MATCH.STEVE STRATOS IS LIVING IN PORTLAND ,OREGON NOW. GOD HAS SHOWN HIM MERCY. IT IS TOO BAD OTHER PEOPLE CANNNOT FORGIVE HIM. I DO NOT SEE THIS TRIAL AS A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE . I LEARNED A LOT WHICH I CAN APPLY TO MINISTRY NOW.PRAISE GOD.

[Eyewitness (65.96.153.178)]

Cara

are you a Floridian part of the year?

[Anonymous (62.121.45.91)]

Standing O to Ted!

[Anonymous (67.23.200.67)]

I will testify that Ted Scibelli was certainly an honest man that walked in integity during that church split. Glad to hear that things are going well at GGC.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

More proof that THERE IS LIFE AFTER GGWO !

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

.

[Anonymous (67.23.200.67)]

What is happening to the church in Westfield during the meltdown in Baltimore? Is Pastor Wayne still as loyal as ever?

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

I don't know about Westfield, but Mary LaFlamme was on Grace Hour this week, and she said that there is revival in the Lee church with Pastor Stanboski. New people coming in all the time and it is going great, she said.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

Mary sounded like the standard Greater Grace praise report, which is always a little exagerated if mot a lot exagerated.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Mary is a nice lady but always is the GG cheerleader. There's no big revival in Lee, and Stambofski is Carl's little lapdog. Ever see him preach? He sounds like Carl, makes Carl's body motions etc...eerie. Stambofski has pledged to be in Baltimore every weekend to be with Carl....oh brother.

[Louise Connolly (24.128.24.65)]

I would like to know about the Saugus, MA branch of GGWO, does anyone have any information?

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

kerry country

[johncollins]

.

[dancer]

too much.

[isabella]

http://www.wordgrace.us/messages.htm