Church of the Living Word

[Theresa]

Has anyone had any experience with this group, particularly in Chicago? I have a few members of my family involved and it is really scarry. Many are too far gone to be rescued, but one in particular is just now being sucked in with thought reform techniques and I'm looking for suggestions to help rescue her from this terrible situation.

[Anonymous]

Is it the Church of the Living Word in Auroura, IL?

[Anonymous]

Yes I have and they definitely are a cult. If they are the ones in Aurora, Illinois

[Anonymous]

The Church Of The Living Word is not a cult. Look at its website at www.thelivingword.org and get the information for yourself. There is free literature to request so you can see for yourself. Some people will tend to call something mind control if they can't convince a friend or relative to give up thinking a way they don't like. Be careful what you label.

[xstudent]

Wake up and smell the coffee!! Shiloh is a cult in Kalona Iowa. Unless you want your children to grow up abused, controlled, used to work in fields, basically to become adults with emotional problems and severe trust issues from being abused by "teachers" and church members. Stay away from that sick place!
xstudent
Older and WISER !!!!!

[Anonymous]

The Church of The Living Word is definitely a cult in Auroura,Iowa,LA,San Diego,MauiBrazil etc.etc.....I happen to have grown up in it.My father is a "pastor" of one of the churches to this day.We were sent all over US when I was a child.I left years ago but everyone I grew up with has had serious issues to deal with.We all came out really ****ed up.....Please stay away unless you plan on giving up your freedom and your life......

[Anonymous]

Anonymous, you are absolutely right. It is really messed up.

Aurora, IL, is part of the "fellowship" and has strong ties. There are also churches in Wash. D.C., Minneapolis, San Fernando Valley (Sepulveda and North Hollywood), Bakersfield, Fresno, the Bay area (California), Grant's Pass and Bend (Oregon), and Seattle.

You can see their site for more information.

What they don't tell is what Gary Hargrave is currently teaching. They will share information about what John Robert Stevens taught, but not what Gary Hargrave is currently teaching, which is really, really crazy. It is self-serving and self-fulfilling, using "prophecies" and the word of "God" to control people.

Stay away from this group. Let God deal with them. If you have been part of this group, go seek professional counselling. There is some serious manipulation (emotional, etc.) and programming going on there.

[Morpheus]

In response to the Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 08:28 pm posting by Anonymous, the free literature that you can request was taught by a man who has been dead for over 20 years. It does not reflect the current, secret teachings that are being given today. They are not open in what they teach, and you will never totally understand what you believe because it changes daily, based on the current whims of the leaders.

All major meetings and teachings are recorded and kept for their own private review at any time.

[Anonymous]

Hi, I know everyone from Auroura. They are nice people. Please see my posts in the other thread about this topic). I am not affiliated with the church anymore.

The free literature is stuff they believe, but some of the "secret doctrine" is the following:

John Stevens was the central character in an eschatological drama. John Stevens was the Apostle to the Kingdom of God, which came in ~1979. We are now in the Kingdom of God. There is blurry distinction between God/Christ and John Stevens. John Stevens was going to be raised from the dead, and may still return, but is currently in the cloud of witnesses (Hewbrews 11) with all of the other apostles and great men of God watching and waiting.

John Stevens had an obsession with occultic phenomena, and dabbled in spiritualism and new age ideas and other esoterica in the late 70s/early 80s, spiritual signs, etc. currently not emphasized but still believed (I personally believe John was right on about alot of spiritual theories, for instance the existence of an aura around a person has been scientifically proven, BUT he and the congregration took it too far, where everything was rationalized away by overspiritualizing it).

The Lord Jesus Christ personally appeared to John Robert Stevens and commissioned on several occaisions.

John Stevens believed in reincarnation.

That John Stevens took out Satan when he died in 1983.

The deification of humans is possible and is the central theme of Romans chapter 8.

Humans can have Christ dwelling in them to the extent that they literally minister Christ to people, thus someone can "be Christ to you", and you can submit to "Christ in the flesh". There are more marketable terms for it, like having a "shepard" or a "designated relationship", but the more accurate word is CONTROLLER. They have good intentions, but obviously many forms of spiritual abuse take place in this arena of someone making your decisions for you. It causes perpetual immaturity and emotional problems when you realize your shepard can never be Christ to you, he/she has human hang-ups just like you. Your shepards "vision" for you may be the opposite of whats in your best interest to do in your own free will.

An overemphasis on "right relationships" and "right relating" in terms of boys and girls and men and women interacting appropriately causes lots of unnecessary overcontrolling and overprotectiveness on the part of the shepard to the person being controlled. Give me a break. People are going to flirt, its healthy, human nature. They get too hung up on "right relating".

These are some of the controversial doctrines. That being said, they are God-fearing, born again Chrisitans who love God. But be careful about becoming overly involved, it can get unhealthy and toxic if you get stuck in bad sheparding relationship.

[Neo]

Hello everyone. Great thread. For anyone that wants more information about the Cult that is the Living word fellowship, there are three other threads at this webite about it. I will post links to them here so you can see. Enjoy.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/599.html?1076024381

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/600.html?1072635136

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/724.html?1072625284

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to let everyone know that several of the smaller churches in this movement have been closed down in the past few years. This is unfortunate because its my opinion that many of the smaller churches are healthier and dont really have the issues of sheparding or designated relationships that become toxic because everyone is really busy with careers, families and schooling and they dont spend all of their time working or volunteering at the church, like someone living at Shiloh, or San Diego would. They just dont really focus on sheparding. And the members of these churches seem to be more integrated into the community, and their kids usually attend public schools ("in the world but not of it"). Churches in Detroit and Minneapolis most recently have closed. Their names have been taken off the Living Word website, but I think there are still home meetings taking place. Auroura is a very small church so it too may be closed down in the future, which is unfortunate because in my opinion, Auroura is a healthy church. Everyone I know from Auroura are kind, well-balanced people. After a church closes, many times there are few families that still have home meetings/bible studies, or the remaining members will relocate to live near one of the large churches (Shiloh, San Diego, or Los Angeles).

The problem is that there has been hardly any influx of new members, and current members are leaving, or just stop coming to services and helping out around the churches/facilities. I predict the movement will last as long as the core families keep handing down leadership to new generations.

From the outside looking in, the leadership of the church resembles nepotism, or the business practice of appointing family members to the leadership positions, which in the Living Word Fellowship are the apostolic company, and the overseers/elders of the chrurches. Those selected are literally appointed by a few members of the leadership. It is not a democratic process. Whether it is the leading of the Lord or not seems vaugely defined (and there is no accoutability to the congregation because a few individuals do all the decision-making.

On a positive note, I believe the Lord wants to bless this fellowship, and the key to its healing and growth will be found in ending its isolation, and its taking practical steps towards the eventual reintegration with the whole Body of Christ and Christians worldwide, something I've been praying for and would like to ask everyone reading this post to pray for. They havent done it yet because they know that mainstream Christians will not tolerate the potentially toxic practices or the secret (controversal) doctrine of John Robert Stevens and the current apostles.

Some areas where I see the opportunity for change, and would like everyone reading this to pray about are:

1. Unlearn the sad, sick, sweeping generalization that all churches categorized in denominational Christianity are a part of the Great Whore of Babylon mentioned in revelation. In fact, at this point, nothing could help the Living Word fellowhship more than associating with these same churches and believers.

2. Do away completely with Sheparding relationships, Christ in the flesh relationships, designated relationships, mentoring relationships, and men-women and boy-girl relationship controlling that create an arena where spiritual abuse can occur or the relationship is toxic to one or both members. Things will not get better until this is stopped (lay the axe at the root of the tree on this point). In a similar vein, do away completely with the practice of submitting every huge and misicule aspect of your lives (dating/marital/family relationships, careers and education, personal finance, where you live or what church you should move to, vacations, extracurricular activities, drinking, sexuality and intimacy between couples, etc) to another imperfect human being chosen by someone else for you treat as Christ, and obey without thinking or trying to reason things through in your head. The obvious consequence is the locking-in to perpetual immaturity and absence of any indepent or critical thinking necessary to foster any sort of self-esteem (bad pyschological implications). Enough posts have concisely described this practice and what is wrong with it, and it is exactly this Sheperding which has caused most of the bitterness and has caused most of us to leave the church. Obviously, healthy accoutability, responsibility, shaperoning, supervision, and guidance exist in all healthy mainstream Christian churches Bodywide, which would be happy to share with Living Word Fellowship what has worked for them.

3. Reform the process of leadership selection and make it more democratic, like it is in denominational churches (eg Methodist, Baptist, Assembly of God). Do away with the political spoils and nepotism that make leadership selection dubious. For instance, many times apostles are commissioned. These apostles have won a suffering/dedication contest by who has dedicated the most of their life to the fellowship. They have demonstrated the most loyalty to the current elders/overseers/pastors of their church and to the influential apostolic company. And almost all them have been sheparded by someone over them and obeyed without question what was asked of them, overtly or subtly, for a long period of their lives (e.g., move from where you grew up in California to Shiloh in rural mid-Iowa (with cold winters) for a long time (a big work of the cross for anyone, and enough of a drastic change to develop maladjustment issues), work for such and such a kingdom business, do not flirt with date that man or woman who is a "bad influence", or do not marry the person you are sure you love, cut off communication with family members who are bad influences, continue your education but stay involved with work at the church, etc.) The person making these decisions for you may not even know you well enough to be sure of what your best interest is. But, if you have been crossed time and time again by your shepard, when you are finally a shepard, you readily weild the authority to cross and say no to the person you are sheparding. And believe me, just like working to the top of a coporation, when I get to the top, my LIFE has literally been sacrificed to get there, so you had better believe that when I am commissioned as a member of the apostolic company or if I am the one over Shiloh, LA, Hawaii, etc, I will do anything in my power to stay there. So the system remains in place and keeps the sheep obedient and non-threatening. The system is not dissimilar to a pyramid-scheme buisiness or a huge corporation (Amway) where the few at the top benefeit (with control, the power of decision making, and finances) at the expense of all those at the bottom. If the leadership of the Living Word Fellowship are reading this, I hope they can put thereselves in the average congregational members shoes where it is easier to see this pattern. Again, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Those are really the main things.

[Anonymous]

No mainstream Christian would disagree with anything in the book "To Every Man that Asketh" by John Robert Stevens (JRS), or most of what is on the Living Word Fellowship website.

The problem is the introduction of the aforementioned secret doctrine. John of course believed all of the status quo Chrisitan beliefs. As a new member, when you are learning this doctrine, you feel like you are getting new revelation directly from God, and that feels exiting, and everything makes sense to you. You want to move on from the "milk for the babes" to the "meat for the young men" (Hebrews) as you read through The First Principles, another book by JRS. The last lesson, #50 in this book, leads into the idea of the deification of man, or as JRS called it the interpenetration of God and man, which is the number one telltale belief (among many other well practices and beliefs described in posts on this thread) that make the authors of cult books label this movement a cult.

[Anonymous]

umm the aurora church is not on the list either. they sold their building a couple of years ago and most of them moved to shiloh or are trying. They may still have home meetings. But the church closed quite a while ago.

[Anonymous]

you on the outside looking in. were you ever part of that fellowship? were you a member of some of the smaller churches? they were no healthier. they were in some cases more isolated and more stuff happened. We who were there and hurt by what happened there know. It wasn't just in places like shiloh. Many wrote letters to gary and marilyn hoping for change. I don't believe there was a response and things were allowed to go on as they were. Some people felt abandoned and like no one was listening and didn't care.
The democratic process doesn't really exist in any religion.
You can't just blame "shepharding". It takes two. People chose to submit. I can't say that it's all the shepherds fault. I chose to submit. They cannot do what you don't allow them to. If you ask them to rule your life they will. They did. Until I decided not to let them and got my own life.

[Anonymous]

The other huge problem with this group is that John used to mention the gospel, but he wouldn't say what it was or share it with people. That was religious and old hat. He'd talk around it. Rather than focusing on Jesus and the Gospel (or Good News of Jesus), focus was put on anything and everything else. I remember in the 80's, Gary mentioning that many in the 3rd generation (counting from John) had not had a "salvation experience," like, oh by the way, many in the third generation don't know how to drive a car yet. So he explained the Easter story and some were later baptized, but that was to obtain the gift of speaking in tongues, because that's how you knew if you were saved or not.

[Anonymous]

First generation:
The founders of The Walk or Church of the Living Word in North Hollywood, CA.
Typically born in the 1920's and 30's. People who in the church in the 1950's and 60's.

Second generation:
First generation's sons and daughters, or the hippies and others who were coming into the church in the 1960's and 70's. Typically, anyone born in the 1940's and 50's.

Third and fourth generations:
First generation's grandsons and granddaughters.
Typically anyone bora in the 1960's or 70's was third generation and people in the fourth generation were born in the 1980's and '90's.

Why were generations important?
Because John Robert Steven's "spoke" Word's over and to these different generations. He would say that specific or very general things about them or that they were to fulfill a promise or a purpose for the Kingdom.

[perfectwhole&complete]

I was a part of the Aurora Church, the LA churches, meaning San Diego,San Gabriel,South Gate,Anaheim,Shiloh.

[outside looking in]

I was the one who commented on the state of healthiness of the churches. It was my observation because I was part of the Shiloh summer camps, and have been a part of one of the small churches (which has closed down). The church I went to was kind a satellite church. Many people in my age group never went to the Shiloh summer camps, or the other major centers. They never moved around to other facilities. They just stayed in our city and had careers, and actually many of them don't go to a living word church anymore. Many are married now to people outside of the body.

But, I apologize for making that overgeneralization because my experience was only one experience at one small church.

The point I was trying to make was that the isolationism a church or facility is directly proportional to the amount of wierd stuff that happens (for any church, not just one in the Living Word Fellowship). In San Diego in the late 1990s, young people (under 25 years old) made up about a third of the congregation, you have a Kingdom school. Educationally, it seems great, and it is well integrated with its sister public school in Chula Vista. But there is lot of sheparding and heavy handed supervision of the young kids (ages 13-18) going on, and it has been unhealthy. There is an overemphasis on "right relating". Also, some of the kids devote all of their time to working and volunteering at the facility, and have no friends outside the church. The issues are similar to the ones home-schooled kids have. It is harder to get "out into the world" and get your college education/career and deal with all kinds of people when you have been sheltered.

Then, I've noticed that many people in my age group became disillusioned or disinterested with the Church of The Living Word around the time of their mid-twenties, and stop coming around to services and camps. Many of these people have spent a great deal of their youth in kingdom facilities and their kindgom schools, some of which were somewhat isolated. Going from isolation to integration back into mainstream Christianity, mainstream education/academia, or the general work force can be tough.

I think the kingdom facilities and kingdom schools in San Deigo and Los Angeles are taking good steps in terms of their integration into the community schools, and I hope it continues. And I know that the kids at these schools are very bright and have high standardized test scores, and some have received generous scholarships to universities. In my opinion, the more integrated the schools are, the better they will be.

Has anyone attended a kingdom school? Did anyone go to the Shiloh school in the 1980s? The only schools I personally know about are the San Diego and Los Angeles (CLW) schools.

[outside looking in]

An above poster made a great point, the sheparding alone can't be blamed. It takes two for spiritual abuse (intended or unintended) to occur. If I am being told what do to, it is sort of my fault for allowing myself to placed in that arena. Submitting with enthusiasm is encouraged.

Also, I feel very well-informed about this movement, with parents who were in it in the 70s and 80s, and myself being heavily involved in the 1990s, and several candid conversations I've had with people from almost all the churches (North America, Hawaii) in my parents 2nd generation, and my own peers in the 3rd and 4th generation. I have personally met almost all of the apostolic company and the leadership, and know almost everyone's kids my age who are members, and keep in touch with even many who have left. I've noticed that many people in the 3rd and 4th generation (especially those born after the death of John Robert Stevens) are not aware of how wild things were in this movement in the 50s-late 70s. It was very militant, and spiritual warfare was emphasized. The mid-late 80s were kind a dark age because ALOT of people left after Johns death, and then in the 90s till now it has gotten more laid back. Currently there have been alot of words brought on ending the isolation. I think that is great, and step towards growth and healing, and I'm praying that that happens.

[perfectwhole&complete]

We submitted to church elders because they were suppose to have the mind of the Lord. I went to this church because it was supposed to be THE LIVING WORD OF GOD. But no one ever waited for God to speak, they just told you what to do. They told you GOD DOESN'T SPEAK TO YOU! The messages in the beginning from John were great, but as it filtered down the line, the meaning was changed by pastors, and elders.

[Anonymous]

did anyone on this message board attend or know anyone who attended the 'the walk' church in Laguna Beach, California in the early 70's?

[perfectwhole&complete]

My heart broke when one of the elders in the church I attended turned away someone in need because they were not a member. They needed money. I found out later this church had $28,000 in the bank.

[Anonymous]

"Kingdom" schools were and are called Centers of Learning. There have been Centers of Learning at Shiloh, North Hills (CLW), San Diego, Anaheim, Texas, and more.

The only one left that I know if is the one in North Hills, CA.
http://www.gocitykids.com/browse/attraction.jsp?id=52233
http://www.centersoflearning.com/history.htm

[Anonymous]

I have read the posts on this and related message boards with great interest. I, too, was a member of The Walk in the early 70’s. I would like to truthfully relate my experiences.

I was drawn into The Walk after meeting a lovely young woman named Christy. I was a professional singer/songwriter at the time. She and a few other church members came to a small club in Laguna Beach where I was performing. She immediately caught my eye. Beyond her obvious beauty, she exuded a mysterious charisma. Between sets, I introduced myself and she and her friends were anxious to have me sit with them. They knew I was attracted to Christy, and they encouraged my interest all evening long. I asked Christy if she would like to meet for breakfast the following day. She agreed, but since it would be Sunday, she asked me to accompany her to church. Though not a churchgoer, I agreed. And that’s where it all started.

We began a tumultuous relationship that lasted about a year (the first time). I accepted the Walk and they accepted me as I began attending church regularly at the small Laguna Beach chapel. Because I was raised in a non-physical family, the congregation’s warm hugs and welcoming spirit really attracted me. I gave myself over to the church hierarchy. But I always had trouble with the theology. I was always uncomfortable with the talk of spiritual warfare, speaking in tongues and other aspects of the church. And my doubts only increased after John Robert Stevens laid hands on me.

I was taken to the South Gate church several times. John Robert Stevens stood at the front of the church surrounded by a phalanx of deacons whose lives he obviously controlled. In fact, one deacon would regularly seem to fall over whenever Brother Stevens would raise his hand in front of the deacon’s face. Quite a strange show. I also recall Brother Stevens accepting volunteers to mortgage their homes to finance various church enterprises. It just didn’t seem right.

What solidified my doubts was when I was brought to the stage for Brother Stevens to lay hands on me for the first time. He believed (or portrayed) that he could divine information about a person by laying hands on them. I was born with some birth defects that were obvious, including fingers that would not straighten out. My hands resemble the hands of an advanced rheumatoid arthritic. But in my case, the defect was cosmetic only. After all, I was a professional guitarist and a pretty good one at that. I suffered no pain and my hands were perfectly dexterous. Brother Stevens laid hands on me and exhorted God to heal my affliction and free me from my pain and suffering. He made a big deal about my physical abnormalities, which were of no consequence or limitation to me. The South Gate congregation, which did not know me like the Laguna Beach group, really ate that up. I left the stage thinking that John Robert Stevens was either a fraud, delusional or both.

Several more months went by before I was able to muster the courage to escape the church. I had developed many friendships and emotional dependencies during my time there. And it was difficult to leave Christy, whom I loved very much. But I accepted an engagement at a resort several hundred miles away from Laguna Beach, and I never returned to the church after that. In fact, I moved to another state to escape. Several years later I moved back to Laguna Beach, and one of Christy’s church friends (her name was Cindy, a tall blond “Viking Queen” of a woman… great lady) saw me. She and Christy paid me a surprise visit. Christy claimed to have cooled somewhat on the church, so we rekindled our relationship for a few weeks. But I figured out that she was still tied to The Walk and I broke it off. I loved her, but I couldn’t give away my life for her beliefs. I still think of her fondly and hope she’s having a happy life.

I understand that different people have different perspectives of what God is all about. I respect that. But I am troubled when a belief in God and subsequent church membership requires one to relinquish total control of one’s life to another church member or group. When such submission is required, I think the church crosses the line to cult status. If The Walk still requires such submission, then I believe it is a cult and should be viewed with suspicion.

[Trinity]

That was an interesting story. I would like to other people's present/past stories.

[Anonymous]

Someone earlier posted:

"We submitted to church elders because they were suppose to have the mind of the Lord. I went to this church because it was supposed to be THE LIVING WORD OF GOD. But no one ever waited for God to speak, they just told you what to do. They told you GOD DOESN'T SPEAK TO YOU!"

They told you that God dosen't speak to you??!

I am so sorry you had to go through that. I've also had to unlearn some of those lies. I am praying that manipulation such as this will end.

[Verdict]

"They told you God doesn't speak to you!"

That's very much not true.
We were taught that it's not always a clear case; sometimes the human brain sort of invents things. But that's where confirmation comes into play--which requires shepherds and mature peers.

[Anonymous]

I know who posted that. They really did tell her that!!

[Anonymous]

Verdict,

Of course it's not a clear case. It's never a "clear" case when Gary and Marylin don't agree with that point of view. And they don't want you to see it either.

Have Gary and Marilyn ever apologized for anything? Have you ever apologized for anything? I've noticed that most people in The Walk don't apologize. Ever. Why? Because they are conceited. They are "perfect." They are "Christ" in the earth. Uh huh. Sure. If you have a "living word," why does it contradict itself and most of what Jesus said? Why can't people "get" it? It is because it is wandering, like Korah in the wilderness. He led the people astray, and the desert swallowed them.

Please apologize and repent while there is still hope. While there is still time. Before the earth takes back its own. Before you become "one" with nature.

[CharlieThreeDogs]

+++++


I was in Living Word at the time that John Robert Stevens died. Not long after JRS died, Gary Hargrave married Marylyn Stevens, John's widow. I think it was within a year of his death, and then they got pretty crazy together, saying things that John supposedly told them when he "visited" them.

[rliethreedogs]

The thing about Living Word that is fascinating, is the fact that John Stevens said that the Lord told him not to affiliate himself with the "Latter Rain" movement. Well, he didn't affiliate himself with anyone that was in Latter Rain, in fact, Living Word, or the Walk separated itself from everybody else, they were the lone wolf movement, everyone else being considered "Babylon." However, the Living Word was a perfect example of ALL the Latter Rain theology, moreso than any other movement or organization. The Walk is the personification of Latter Rain, from the Apostles and Prophets right on to the "manifestation of God's sons."

[Charliethreedogs]

I notice that many people post annonymously. Now that is no big deal, except for the trouble it is to respond to any posters directly, but I think it is evidence of something deeper. Now my name is not realy "Charliethreedogs" of course, but I think there is evidence of something in everyone's subconciounce, that they won't use any name at all posting, not even a screen name. I went out to LA right after Brother Stevens died, (of course, the term Brother Stevens was not hip by the time, the inner circle called him John).. I recall the paranoia I experienced there. I have never before or after been anywhere in America that I felt uneasy, as if I might not be able to leave. My personal oppinion today, JRS meant well, he was messed up in a lot of ways, but when "Garylyn" took over, they realy flipped out. I don't know what they are like today.

[Chad]

Lots to respond to here, I'll go in backward order.
Thanks for entering the discussion charlie. You are right on target with your points about JRS recreating the latter rain movement as the "walk." He said that he got his "word" by revelation, but once you do a little research, his mystical encounter turns out to be nothing more than taking from what he had been raised in and teaching to a bunch of people who had never heard it, and calling it his own. There's not much integrity in that. I judge what Gary and Marilyn are like, based on what the fellowship is like. Gary's word is the most cultic that any word in hte fellowship has ever been. He openly says that the only way to mature as a believer in Christ is to serve another person. Currently in the fellowship they send young adults all over the globe, to "plug them in" to other churches where they can serve. Thiere is also a fierce defense of Marilyn, very violent and militant, you may have experienced something simliar with John. I would say it is more so with John, as most of the men in the movement are inherently sexist so they feel that because Marilyn is a woman she somehow needs more protection. She is their queen after all. I have often wondered, if she is God, why God needs to be protected and defended?

Great point to verdict anonymous. Arrogance is thier chief attribute. My question is simple, how does verdict know what was said to someone when he or she was not there? You can see that it is nothing more that brainwashing. Verdict needs to believe that no one said something like that to defend his/her own identity that he/she is not in a cult. Charlie hit that paranoia right on the head. Members of the fellowship can be violent if they feel you are attacking Marilyn or the fellowship. They will explode into foul language and insults, start screaming at you, and maybe even physically attack you. But the reason that this is so dangerous, is that they are not truely defending the fellowship or Marilyn. They are defending thier own investment in it, and thier own identity. The reason to be careful is that a person will go to great lengths to protect thier own identity. Most just resort to denile, and refuse to listen to anything counter to the ideas they have constructed in thier brain. But there are those who are fiercely protective. I have experienced this first hand, and it does go all the way up the ladder to the top.

Verdict,
The reason that no one has ever told you anything like that Verdict was that it was always very easy to control you. All your shepherd ever had to do is just put the slightest hint of disaproval in his manner and say something like, "well we need to get confirmation on that" or something and you'd drop your own ideas and quickly take on the thinking of your "shepherd" so that you could get his approval. You were probably missing a strong father figure in your life so you desperately needed the approval of a father, and you were willing to do anything to get that love. Plus you were lacking in self esteem so you just wanted to believe that you were someone special, and this idea that you could be "christ in the earth" was flattering and made you feel special, better than other Christians, and you liked that feeling. So you did what it took to get the approval of those over you. You really need to just grow up and get a life, then you wouldn't need the fellowship....

See, it doesn't feel good when someone arrogantly tells you what you think, and what you experienced, and why you do what you do, does it?

Finally to the poster that was told that "God did not speak to you." I hope that by reading these posts, and the posts in the other LWF threads, you can take strength in the fact that there are others who have experinced what you have experinced, and that it is nothing more than a cult strategy to control you. What you experinced was not God. God speaks to you as much as you like and as often as you will listen. HE is a jealous God, Jealous for your love and attention, and wants nothing more than to hav ea relationship with you directly. God is not limited and does not need the weak filters of someone else's human brain to get his voice right in your heart. He made your heart. He knows how to speak to it. Believe in God, and in his son Jesus Christ, and in his spirit which he poured out to communicate with you. Find a healthy church and rekindle your faith and your love, and be strengthend, for God has loved you since the foundation of the world. And before that too. I will pray for you to find peace and healing.

[Charlie]

I think the thing that sealed it for me was the trip to Los Angelos, and the meetings at the Valley Church right after John died. Marilyn kept changing clothes and coming back into the service, man she looked like the whore of Babylyn. I figured she was high, and that was no big deal to me, all the "elders" got high, or at least the ones from Georgia and Tennessee. Anyway, one of the brothers, and I can't think of his name now, but I talked to him dozens of times when I called "com-central," but anyway he got the microphone and was talking on and on about John comeing back so he could be the "first one" to come back from the dead, and he literally said "I don't know this Jesus dude, but I know John." That sealed it for me, when the people voiced their agreement with that. Marylyn said the tapes would not be edited, but that was definatly edited out.

[Charlie]

The annomous poster that brings up the "generations" certainly brings back the memorys for me. I recall how it got real chic in the movement to have younger elders, the younger the better. John had brought a word about the 3rd generation and suddenly we were supposed to "submit" to the third generation. Another thing that fascinated me was the idea that someone was supposed to be able to walk in things that took years of maturing to bring someone to, supposedly they could have years of maturity "imparted" to them. I don't know how the walk is now, but I don't think it is possible for them to have more space cadets than we had in those days.

[Trinity]

Charlie,


"I don't think it is possible for them to have more space cadets than we had in those days."

It doesn't. Most of the hippies and drug people who followed JRS around like he was the center of a travelling circus, some of whom worshipped him, left after he did not come back from the dead. After his death, John's body was preserved by the members for a period of time. When he did not arise, they transported his body to Shiloh and buried it there in an unmarked grave. There is a framed photograph of this burial ceremony on the wall at the Living Word Building in North Hills, CA.

"The thing about Living Word that is fascinating, is the fact that John Stevens said that the Lord told him not to affiliate himself with the "Latter Rain" movement. Well, he didn't affiliate himself with anyone that was in Latter Rain, in fact, Living Word, or the Walk separated itself from everybody else, they were the lone wolf movement, everyone else being considered "Babylon.""

I just wanted to clarify that JRS did go up to Washington State to receive ministry from William Branham, the star apostle of the Latter Rain movement. This was in defiance of the Word of the Lord to John. John obtained many of his spiritual/psychic/white magic abilities and charisma from impartation by the laying on of hands by William Branham at this time. Thus although the Walk was never "officially" affiliated with the Latter Rain (JRS vehemently denied these claims), clearly its most charismatic apostle William Branham and the writings of other people in his inner circle were the most significant influences on all of what would later be the unique, controversial, secret doctrine of the Living Word (Kingdom Now Theology). These facts are clearly documented in the Spiritual Counterfeits Project report I have referenced several times.

[charlie]

Yea, I knew that he was ministered to by William Branham. It amazes me, to this day, I have friends that have not been in the walk since I was in about 1984, and they still react violently when I mention to them that the walk was Latter Rain. I don't get it, I mean anyone that can read surely sees the similarity in theology.

[JGS]

Charlie,
People are always trying to labels on everything. It is the American way. The LWF has the label of "Latter Rain", "Manifest Sons", and the list goes on. When I hear these, I don't have a knee jerk reaction, a violent reaction, nor does anyone I know have a knee jerk reaction. I've been in the Christian forums throughout the web, debating and witnessing for almost 10 years now and I've been equated with many labels. It doesn't bother me, nor those with whom I fellowship.

Is this "...they still react violently..." something born entirely out of your imagination?

I've been in this Fellowship for 30 years and have never...ever seen these kind of reaction that you are bearing witness to.

Actually, I look at the latter rain as a time when God poured His Spirit upon the earth and many people experienced, not just those under John Robert Stevens, but movements of God not known by or associated with the Living Word Fellowship. What's the big deal in that?

[Larry Bobo]

On a different thread I mentioned, "In my research on the Internet, I came across some rather disturbing information on William Branham and the Latter Rain movement. All this time I had believed that John had received his word of the Kingdom while waiting on the Lord in a remodeled chicken coup over a period of several years. John was ex-communicated from the Assemblies of God church because of his involvement with the Latter Rain movement and was obviously aware of their doctrines.

Here is a list of Latter Rain teachings: the latter rain, restoration of the church, restoration of the five-fold ministries, pre-rapture spiritual second coming of Christ, new revelation and prophesies, manifestation of the sons of God, overcoming death before Christ’s return, dominion now theology and spiritual warfare, mainstream Christianity referred to as “old order” or “Babylon”, personal ministry –“words from God” from leaders to congregants, Manchild doctrine, Joel’s army and militancy, deeper levels of revelation including altered states of consciousness, spiritual evolution to perfection, divine order, enforced unity, shepherding, and father/son mentoring. Outside of John being the “Door Opener Apostle” and Marilyn being the “Lamp of Israel”, that pretty much sums up the teaching of the Walk. (Incidentally, William Branham felt he was Elijah, the 7th Prophet of God, and a manifestation of God in the flesh. As John’s mentor he was involved in a lot bizarre occult activity – See APOSTATEOCCULTPROPHETS.

This was a sad discovery for me - I felt I had been betrayed. I really don't know how you can read this list and assume JRS's teachings are original. Many of these teachings are not mainstream, non-denominational as some have indicated. It would be good to visit a mainstream Christian church to find out for yourself that the rest of Christianity has been misrepresented in the LW teaching. It's not the evil Babylon - in fact I think it's much healthier than the Walk.

[charlie]

The guys I have mentioned the Latter Rain theology to got loud in their "defense" of John Stevens, as if I were challenging JRS, just simply showing them that whatever JRS wanted to call it, it is simply Latter Rain theology, so much so that the Living Word Fellowship would be the perfect model for any group trying to become a latter rain church.

[ex-walkite]

Larry I agree with you about the teachings being Latter Rain. The thing with Stevens is that the people believed EVERYTHING that he thought was direct revelation from God. I recall a brother telling me that having the kichen and storage area of Shiloh in a sub-terrain level was "direct revelation from God." Man, everybody knows that food storage under the ground level is better, that is as old as the fronteir days.

[Charlie]

JGS you sound like you have a pretty good attitude and a healthy mind. I was just thinking when I read your answer, that perhaps the people that I know that left Living Word at the time that I did are truly airheads, maybe the Living Word people today are the sane ones. I notice on that website that they seem to be pretty happy, the pictures of the young people seem to show sane and healthy kids. And the church is public now, as compared to all the 'closed meetings' and the 'restricted tapes.'

[ex-walkite]

Larry Bobo, I wouldn't feel betrayed if I were you. In the Walk people all the time say they are "waiting on the Lord" and they realy mean they are watching telivision or drinking a beer with one of their friends. They all the time are getting "revelations" from something they read or something they see on TV, and they use the phraseology of "getting a revelation." That is all a part of the lingo. I would say that very few people realy get down and study the Bible and come up with something origional, they just assume it is origional, the nobody ever heard of it before, that is because they are so arrogant.

[Xwalkite]

I have got to learn more about this shepherding thing. I keep getting the hint that you are not talking about elders being the shepherds in these relationships, that they are sort of randomly selected relationships. That sounds about as insane as they come if it is what I think it is. If Living Word is doing what I think they are doing, they need to be investigated, they need to be visited by Janet reno's boys.

[Jon]

I don't think they need to be investigated for sheparding. What do you think, Chad, or others?

I'm not sure if the effect of toxic sheparding on someone emotionally or pyschologically would be easy to see on the surface. Someone should write a book about it.

The emotion you guys see in my posts is the tip of iceberg of how much rage I have inside about the practice of sheparding. It robs you of your free will to make decisions and think critically in Christ! I experienced a very small amount of it and I still get very upset and see red when I think about it. I was being controlled! I reacted very emotionally and irrationally to it at the time, but I knew something just wasn't quite right in the church if this same thing happened to other people of all ages. I only experienced a small amount of exposure to spiritual abuse. What about people who get stuck in these toxic relationships for much longer and sustained periods of time? That is where the potential danger is.

I know firsthand how it felt, and not a few people candidly told me about sheparding taking place in San Diego that was very heavy-handed.

Obviously, all you have to go on is what I say and what people posting on here say, but why would we lie? I am not lying or exaggerating. I am telling you the truth. I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by wearing my emotions and experiences on my sleeve for anyone to see. I'm trying to get my point across that the leadership needs to do something to correct it. Maybe they have since I left in 2000. Maybe someone in the leadership who reads this can respond and let us know what actions have been taken to correct the problem.

Maybe they should have a huge meeting, with all the congregants and the leadership, to discuss it. I know that Gary and Marilyn or any of the leadership would never, ever, in a million years want to intentionally hurt anyone directly or indirectly. But it seems that they aren't seeing the whole picture of the devastating and systemic spiritual and emotional consequeces of overly-invasive sheparding.

How do they feel that 24 year olds are sheparding 30 year olds? How can that possibly be healthy for the 30 year old? I'm not sure what criterion are used to select designated relationships, but the relationships are in many cases picked for you. Whether of not God revealed it is vauge. Who confirmed it?

I also know that you are not allowed to "shop around" for a shepard you like after one has been assigned for you. People in the 1970s used to shop around with personal ministry, for instance if someone said "I don't feel good about you guys getting married", they would keep asking other ministries until someone said yes. This begs the question, exactly how clearly is it the leading of the Lord? If it is not, than we are placed in a human arena where all sorts of mistakes can be made.

I know that current members will tell me that just because the practical application of a word from God has quirks and bumps doesn't that you abandon it as soon as the first sign of trouble comes along. You stick with it, so the word of the the Lord will not return void.

True, but what if the practical application is fundamentally flawed from the start? I'm not saying to do away with sheparding all together, but the leadership needs to listen to what the congregation says and everyone needs to work together to solve the problem. Too often the congregation is left in the dark about where things are going in the church, which causes doubt and criticism to arise.

[Larry Bobo]

The goal of shepherding should be to bring people into a greater maturity in the Lord so they learn His word and develop a deeper walk with Him. For a human to take the place of God is first of all idolatry and secondly riddled with human error. Your view of God becomes so distorted and unbiblical and before long you are blaming Him for things He had nothing to do with. The fruit ends up being exactly what you'd expect from a human directing things - some do a better job than others.

I'd like to hear some feedback from those who have learned to stand on their own two feet and have re-established their walk with the Lord based on the scriptures. In my own life, the results have been much greater than anything I ever experienced in the Walk under "shepherding". Not only has the spiritual side of my life improved, but so has my family life, finances, and relationships with others - especially christians.

[Morpheus]

Larry,

What you are saying is true. I've been through it all, just like you have. Different situations and different faces, but years of the same "shepherding" and misguidance, under John, G&M, etc. I've had extremely low self-esteem for many years, until I left the Living Word Fellowship and started reading and really studying scritures. There is so much in the Bible to be studied that I don't understand why so many think they have to turn to others for more. I've heard the arguments that it's "just so dry" or I just can't get into it.

Ask God to help you understand it. Go seek out a church that teaches just the Bible and ask someone to explain the plan of salvation. In it, you will find joy and peace. Ask someone to show you what the Bible is really about.

My life has improved tremendously since I threw away the Mormon financial info provided by the Living Word Fellowship (aka the Franklin financial planning guide) and took the Crown ministry class. Did you know that there are over 2000 scriptures dealing with finances? That God does not care about money as much as He really cares about your heart?

There are still years of deprogramming to undo, but I am well on my way.

[Chad]

Jon-
"...I'm not saying to do away with sheparding all together..."
I am. No person should ever pretend to take the place of God in another person's life. Well I take that back. Only one person should ever take the place of God in your life, Jesus Christ. Not Christ in the earth who is really just my cousin fred, by Jesus Christ. He is the only one qualified to tell you how to think about God, and your job, and your cat, and the girl you want to date, and where you should go on vacation.

I agree with Larry, asking a person to do that is not only foolish as you are opening yourself up to a wide opportunity for a myriad of human errors, but it is also blasphemous because it usurps the place of the Holy spirit and Jesus Christ. Where is he faith and trust in someone telling you what to do and how to think. In my opinion, the most growth I've ever found as a christian was when I had to just close my eyes and trust Him with my life. IT didn't come from someone telling me how to think. It came from me first of all believeing that He is, and secondly that he is there with his arms out wanting to take care of me and provide for me. Trusting God is not easy, it is rather scary, but in my opinion it is the only way to peace. And contrary to what Gary says, A mature christian is not someone who is serving another person, a mature christian is someone who absolutely trusts God. Not man impersonating God. But GOD.

"just because the practical application of a word from God has quirks and bumps doesn't that you abandon it"
I think justin said it best. If the "word from God" doesn't work when you try to apply it, then it wasn't a word from God. God doesn't draw up faulty blueprints. And if you are having trouble making them work, then you probably wrote them down wrong. Better to scrap them all together than to try to build a system that is mostly God.

[Larry Bobo]

The character issues that Jesus said were important in his teachings do not seem to have near the glory that ruling the earth and the spirit realm with a resurrected body do. Yet if you are not faithful in the little things, He will not make you ruler over much. For example, I think it is a little delusional to think you are controlling world financial markets with your "prophetic word" when you can't manage your personal finances. It's foolish to think you are impacting anything. Even if you were, you'd be making a mess of it.

There seems to be a deliberate choice to overlook the basics and pursue doctrines that produce no fruit. Has anyone happened to look in the mirror and check out their (or John's) resurrected body. You can be trained to have anything bear witness, but the real test is the fruit. John said that if they carried him out feet first, this living word was not true. If the word of ressurection life is to be gradually moved into, wouldn't it seem there would be some sort of gradual manifestation in the physical realm of this "truth". I've seen far more evidence of healing the physical body in mainstream christianity than I ever saw in the Walk and they are not even looking for resurrection life before Christ's return. Following Jesus' commands does produce fruit and it provides a solid foundation to build your life on.

[Anonymous]

Chadite,

Big mouth, quite taking the place of God by telling me what is right or wrong with other
religions because of your experiences. You're
a tainted S.O.B.

NEO

[chad]

ummm. no. But you can keep gnashing your teeth and compulsively coming back here if you want.

[Chad]

Funny that you have so much anger and vinditiveness for me, all I keep talking about is Jesus Christ. How can talking about Jesus Christ make you so mad? Unless of course, you hate him too.

[Chad]

By the way, can't you see that attacking us just makes us stronger? It reinforces that we came out of a violent and hateful place that was not filled with the love of Christ. If you had any brains at all, you would respond with nothing but love, telling us that you loved us, atleast that would show people that wnader in that what we are saying about you isn't true. But when you post like that, you just make it obvious that we are right. So keep showing your true colors, you are doing me a favor.

How can the minions of the devil be sooo stupid, you would have thought that after centuries of trying to manipulate and steer others away from Jesus CHrist you would have figured atleast something out...

[Ex-walkite]

In the 70s and the 80s until John Stevens died the only shepherds were the set in elders, are you people saying that that people are assigned "shepherds" just out of the congrgation?

[Anonymous]

yes that's exactly right

[ExWalkite]

Well, if they are assigning people pretty much at their own descretion for people to "submit" to, it won't be long until people are going to be in for some serious charges, that will have to lead to some hard core abuse. How long as this sort of thing (placeing shepherds over people) been going on in the Walk?

[Anonymous]

for about 4 years

[Your Conscience]

Chad-Diddy, WOW three posts!!!! Post One: I DO
NOT need your permission Shepard Chad, to post here, got it? Post Two: It's not funny that you are such a pompous, self-indulgent crybaby, who BEGS to be abused, when all your troubles are self induced anyway. Post Three: By the time I'm through with you, you will be able to be in the strongman contest. Do God a service, don't read the bible anymore since you quote it wrong. By the way, haven't you vented and healed already? Get off this board so others with real problems can talk without your "False Sheaparding input". You Sir, are a thick headed know-it-all. And yes, the walk had and has many problems, but they don't outweigh the truth of the word ===== NOT EVEN YOUR HIGHLY EXAGGERATED OPINIONS!!!!!!! Holocast victims with all they have gone through have purer hearts than you. But of course, Mr. Know-It-All, you won't, I mean can't agree because you are sooooo-full of SELF-PITY. I look forward to talking and making you stronger.

[Jon]

The issue at hand is not the character or integrity of any one of us on both sides of the debate. I respect all of your opinions, and you have the right and entitlement to disagree, but please do in a respectful manner.

The above poster's mean-spirited attack on character is not dissimilar to an idealogue, partisan politician with a scheme to undermine the credibility of his opponent by attacking his character. That is not what this website is for, and I hope that future posts of the above nature will be removed by the moderator.

It is clear that we have touched a nerve.

The issue is: what specific changes are going to be implemented to solve the problems in the LWF that have been clearly outlined throughout this thread.

In my opinion, the above post does not reflect the attitude of any of the people I knew when I had contact with the LWF. They would never attack someone's character outright like that.

[Ex-member]

"By the time I'm through with you,"

This sounds like a threat, and the rest of the post sounds like an attempt at slander. Perhaps the moderater should give your IP address to proper authorities. I think you are taking things too far and obviously have a personal problem with Chad. Don't bring it here again, please. That is not what this board is intended for. Are you really foolish enough to think that posting anonomously is REALLY posting anonomously?? Your IP address is logged every time you make a post, and the moderator can use it to identify who you really are.

I agree, Jon. This person's post does not reflect anyone I would have known when I was involved in LWF. And if it IS someone who I once knew, I am absoultely ashamed that I once called him or her a brother or sister in Christ. Quite frankly, I am ashamed to have associated with them.

[your conscience too]

Jon "BUSYBODY" What is your problem???? If you are going to sling mud, then you should damn well be able to take the truth. Listen, empty head, you attack LWF and John, you are going to get it right back. You are nothing more than a Bible-thumping, cantankerous fanatic going on your own jihad (are you by chance related to the taliban). Are you a shepard also? You've got your nerve to suggest that a moderator should censor the truth about your babbling, which is a sick perversity in seeking out the faults of others --- as if you are sooooo perfect. No matter what you say, the truth still stands about yourselves. Instead of turning the other cheek to me, you hope I'm kicked off this board. Why don't you stay off if I offend you? Remember, this should make you strong in your hatred and murky ideals of the LWF. Yours sincerely.

[your conscience too]

Jon "BUSYBODY" What is your problem???? If you are going to sling mud, then you should damn well be able to take the truth. Listen, empty head, you attack LWF and John, you are going to get it right back. You are nothing more than a Bible-thumping, cantankerous fanatic going on your own jihad (are you by chance related to the taliban). Are you a shepard also? You've got your nerve to suggest that a moderator should censor the truth about your babbling, which is a sick perversity in seeking out the faults of others --- as if you are sooooo perfect. No matter what you say, the truth still stands about yourselves. Instead of turning the other cheek to me, you hope I'm kicked off this board. Why don't you stay off if I offend you? Remember, this should make you strong in your hatred and murky ideals of the LWF. Yours sincerely.

[Anonymous]

I can't help but wonder if some non-TLW people are posing as TLW people to try and start an artificial flame war. The threatening wording in the above posts seems rather fabricated to me.

[moderators cousin]

Ex-Member, A threat?? Slander??? What are you thinking?? What are you talking about??? And this is worse than what is being said about LWF????? Any worse than the crap you guys are saying???? See what I mean, you also are a perverse individual who plays the holier than thou christian role totally desecrating some peoples heart-felt belief. And why, you had a bad experience and you don't want anyone one to disagree with you. But if you are called out on your filth and vile opinion, you go berserk. Also, I'm glad I never met you, you pharisee. There is nothing wrong in being like one of the sons of thunder, someone who has heart and passion. I don't pretend. When you have the gall to pull that grandiose kind of rhetoric on me, you're going to get back what you dish out. I don't really care what you think! People have posted nice and caring messages to you, but you can't be nice to know-it-alls. Also, the people that hurt you no doubt was very real. But you cross the line when you attack the word --and that I won't take. That is why there are many churches, take your pick, and move on!!!!

[Chad]

"I can't help but wonder if some non-TLW people are posing as TLW people to try and start an artificial flame war. The threatening wording in the above posts seems rather fabricated to me."

Don't worry, I've been perhaps one of the biggest antagonists of the LWF on here, and even I have to admitt that most of the fellowship people are nothing at all like this. The sad thing is that this isn't someone just ranting in the guise of a TLW person just to make you look bad. This person really believes they are fighting for god in a great "war over the word."

The dead give away is the "son of thunder." I've been in the fellowship my whole life and I've only ever heard that term on some way old tapes, you know the clear kind, before they started making the white ones. Back when they used to scream "AMEN!" and "That's Right!" Back when they talked about crushing satan's head and satanic assaults, and prophecying daily against satan. The fellowships is not like that now. Not at all. But there are still some stuck in those old days, like those korean soldiers who wander out of the jungle still in uniforms thinking they are at war, after the war has been over for 30 years.

To me, while most people in the fellowship do not become this militant, I am glad that this person has posted. They illustrate what i've been trying to express about the problem with calling what John spoke "THE WORD OF GOD" or calling it a "War over the Word." In so doing you create this unnecessary militancy that doesn't really serve anyone.

My question is this, whoever you are. You wrote, "you cross the line when you attack the word --and that I won't take." I can only assume that you feel you are defending God's word. Since when does God need humans to protect his word?

Speaking to you rationally may be useless. I really hope that it's not. I hope that we can talk rationally. I'm sure deep down we both have one thing in common, and absolute love for God. You may still feel the need to lash out at me and others. You may feel the need to call us arrogant or hateful or bitter or know-it-alls or pharisees or something else.

But really, you may need to consider getting some help. If you can't hear it from me, I hope there is someone in your life whom you can hear it from.

You may really be sick. That's not rhetoric. That's not an attack. That's not me trying to make you look small so I can be right. I've seen this type of extreme militant view of God's word before. Not in the mainstream members of the fellowship, but in someone who was also very sick, and prone to violent and intense reactions over what he percieved were attacks on God's word.

The simple truth is that God doesn't need your fleshy human emotional explosion to defend Him. He is God. His word is always true. It needs no defense. Thinking you have to step in and save the day for God? That's completely irrational. The end time is not comming. The world is not ending. You don't have to war over the word. Take a deep breath friend, drink deeply of the peace of Jesus Christ, and try to explain what has gotten you so upset. I'm not even sure what I have said that you are upset with me about. IF you are trying to rebuke me, atleast make it clear what you are rebuking me for.

But whatever the case, atleast try to breathe while you post, It won't help anyone if you have an anurism over this.

[Justin]

your conscience,

"If you are going to sling mud, then you should damn well be able to take the truth." The term mudslinging, in my experience, involves lies (or half-truths taken out of context). I know both Jon and Chad, and am 100% sure that what they say is true. I witnessed some of it firsthand. What is apparent to us and obviously not to you is that you are the one that's unable to take the truth. Either that, or you are fortunate enough to have never experienced the abuse that others have in the LWF. You said "you should damn well be able to take the truth." Please answer me this, and be specific: what truth are you referring to?

"Listen, empty head, you attack LWF and John, you are going to get it right back." Resorting to childish namecalling will get you nowhere. Your rambling, off-topic character attack will get you nowhere. Is it too much to ask for a specific, inteligent retort to their "HIGHLY EXAGGERATED OPINIONS" or "babbling"? Every time anyone brings up a specific issue, this board is flooded with insults. Please, if you have an opinion about the issue at hand, share it in a respectful objective manner. If you have personal issue with the person posting, talk to them privately thru email. Every person who has been flamed thus far has posted their email address.


Ex-member,
"This person's post does not reflect anyone I would have known when I was involved in LWF." I agree with you and Anonymous: "I can't help but wonder if some non-TLW people are posing as TLW people to try and start an artificial flame war. The threatening wording in the above posts seems rather fabricated to me." It does seem a little overboard, but there are some people with personal vendettas.


moderators cousin,
"And this is worse than what is being said about LWF????? Any worse than the crap you guys are saying????" Well, it depends on your opinion. What is worse: publicly discussing abusive qualities and abusive experiences that happened in a church, or lashing out at someone's character for having a different viewpoint than you?

"But if you are called out on your filth and vile opinion, you go berserk." That's weird. Go ahead and read the last 7 posts. Who went beserk again?

"When you have the gall to pull that grandiose kind of rhetoric on me, you're going to get back what you dish out." Then give it back. Bring it on. There have been posts that have a touch of bitterness or anger, but there's a reason for it. A lot of people went through a lot of messed up things. While some posts from Chad, Jon, and others have been emotionally charged, that doesn't change the fact that what they say is true.

"But you cross the line when you attack the word --and that I won't take." The Word, as I know it, hasn't been attacked. Please reference specifically this attack.

"That is why there are many churches, take your pick, and move on!!!!" You obviously have taken your pick. That's your perogative. We are posting to help others make an informed choice. By the way, we have also already "taken our pick", as has been stated in previous posts. We are moving on.

[Morpheus]

Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)--Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God."

So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."
All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.
Acts 6:8-15

...

Moses thought that his own people would realize that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not.
Acts 7:25

...

I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
Acts 7:34

...

"But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. They told Aaron, 'Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt--we don't know what has happened to him!'
Acts 7:39-40 (Ever get tired of waiting for a "God in the sky" and feel the need for a God here on earth? The Israelites did.)

...

"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him--you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.
Acts 7:51-54

...

At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.
Acts 7:56-58a
The full story of Stephen (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=acts%2B6-7&version=NIV)

Who is covering their ears on this board? Who is yelling at the top of their lungs?

The response to Stephen's sound arguments and articulate testimony, his love for them, was sheer rage and brutality.

May the captives be set free from the deceptive teaching that is the Walk. It does not need to be defended. It needs to be walked away from. Don't try to fix it. It can't be fixed. When a building is falling apart and must be condemned, no one tries to run in and fix it. They simply walk away and start over. The Walk has been in place for almost 50 years. It's teachings do not stand the test of time. It's foundation is rotting and is a stench to all who know the truth.

Worship is more than just beautiful, emotional music. Worship is what you do with your life. It's your whole life, not just words set to music. Is your life a sweet melody to God? Is it loving, both to your fellow members and to the lost? Are you caring for the poor? Are you feeding the hungry? Do you visit the sick who don't know Jesus? Can you honestly say that what you believe and profess is Biblical? Do you have to rely on a This Week to uphold your view?

Misapplication of God's word clashes with God's Word. That is why Satan's arguments using scriptures against Jesus did not stand up. Even Satan acknowledged that God's Word was powerful and sharper that a two-edged sword. But that sword cuts both ways and is able to be turned on those who misuse it and defeat them.

I challenge you: Read the scriptures daily. Pray to God. Ask Him for wisdom. See if what I say is true. See if what Gary says is true.


"Listen, you priests; this command is for you! Listen to me and take it to heart. Honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "or I will bring a terrible curse against you. I will curse even the blessings you receive. Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you have not taken my warning seriously. I will rebuke your descendants and splatter your faces with the dung of your festival sacrifices, and I will add you to the dung heap. Then at last you will know it was I who sent you this warning so that my covenant with the Levites may continue," says the LORD Almighty.

"The purpose of my covenant with the Levites was to bring life and peace, and this is what I gave them. This called for reverence from them, and they greatly revered me and stood in awe of my name. They passed on to the people all the truth they received from me. They did not lie or cheat; they walked with me, living good and righteous lives, and they turned many from lives of sin. The priests' lips should guard knowledge, and people should go to them for instruction, for the priests are the messengers of the LORD Almighty. But not you! You have left God's paths. Your `guidance' has caused many to stumble into sin. You have corrupted the covenant I made with the Levites," says the LORD Almighty. "So I have made you despised and humiliated in the eyes of all the people. For you have not obeyed me but have shown partiality in your interpretation of the law."

Are we not all children of the same Father? Are we not all created by the same God? Then why are we faithless to each other, violating the covenant of our ancestors? In Judah, in Israel, and in Jerusalem there is treachery, for the men of Judah have defiled the LORD's beloved sanctuary by marrying women who worship idols. May the LORD cut off from the nation of Israel every last man who has done this and yet brings an offering to the LORD Almighty.

Here is another thing you do. You cover the LORD's altar with tears, weeping and groaning because he pays no attention to your offerings, and he doesn't accept them with pleasure. 14You cry out, "Why has the LORD abandoned us?" I'll tell you why! Because the LORD witnessed the vows you and your wife made to each other on your wedding day when you were young. But you have been disloyal to her, though she remained your faithful companion, the wife of your marriage vows. Didn't the LORD make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are his. And what does he want? Godly children from your union. So guard yourself; remain loyal to the wife of your youth. <U>"For I hate divorce!" says the LORD, the God of Israel. "It is as cruel as putting on a victim's bloodstained coat," says the LORD Almighty.</U> "So guard yourself; always remain loyal to your wife."

You have wearied the LORD with your words.
"Wearied him?" you ask. "How have we wearied him?"
You have wearied him by suggesting that the LORD favors evildoers since he does not punish them. You have wearied him by asking, "Where is the God of justice?"
Malachi 2

I believe that God wants every person to experience the deep satisfaction and reward of following His commandments and knowing His Son, Jesus the Christ. I pray that every person who reads this message board would accept the free gift of eternal life that Jesus camed and died to give everyone who believes in Him.

Please consider the Passion of the Christ. Seek it out in scripture. Read the book of His life. It's a best-seller that cannot be put down.

[XWalkite (207.69.84.195)]

Well, I predict that the shepherding thing will have a great deal to do with the demise of the Living Word Fellowship. Unless of course they come up with something else, because you would sooner or later run out of sado-masochists to participate in such a devient lifestyle.

[your conscience (4.12.214.185)]

Hey Bros, Chad, Justin and Morp:

This whole act is really a vice - just a sick habit. This disscussion board for some of you is nothing more than being self-indulgent in your emotional imperfections. Your logic deals only with people in your class "crybabies".

Your "Hurt" is nothing more than a victimless crime (like prostitution).

[XWAlkite (209.86.130.181)]

To the Annonymous poster Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 07:23 pm You are right about all that. This shepherding thing is a waste of time. I noticed when I was in Living Word there was no growth in the churches, there seemed to be no evangelism. Every memeber is to be an evangelist. The thing is thogh, people are not giong to come and join the church if they are told that whatever they were in before was Babylon. Living Word people don't know till they mature some, but they are in Babylon too.

[EXWalkite (209.86.130.181)]

There are a number of nondenominational churches out there that are full of ex-walk members. There were three major changes and at those changes, some people left. First when John divorced Martha, when he married Marilyn, when he died, and then when Hargrave married Marilyn, that is four major changes, and it all happened in a very short time. What were the dates of the Stevens devorce, John's marriage to Marilyn, John's death in June of 1983 and then, how long was it till Marilyn married Hargrave? Does anyone have those dates?

[Anonymous (216.43.106.33)]

*Your "Hurt" is nothing more than a victimless crime (like prostitution).*

Nice.

Prostitution degrades society, is fornication or adultery, can break-up families and destroy lives.

So now we have a current member of The Walk condoning sin? Every sin has at least one victim, and no sin is ok and without consequence.

[your conscience (4.12.214.185)]

Annonymous: Calm down. Read what I said "slower". You know what a victim is, right? Victimless is like prostitution because you choose that route on your own free will. So, some of these people feel justified to blame when they relinquished (compulsively) themselves. I don't get it. Was LWF holding AKA's or Glocks on them? I don't know about you guys, but I was taught to always wait on the Lord and get a confirmation. I never jump into anything unless my heart bears witness. Also, tone down you anger, you might just learn something.

[Anonymous (68.111.176.228)]

regarding the "sons of thunder" idea. This could be a reference to what James and John were called in the New Testament.

[Chad (67.21.25.17)]

"Also, tone down you anger, you might just learn something." You are one to tell someone else that.

"So, some of these people feel justified to blame when they relinquished (compulsively) themselves"

Here are the two problems I see with that logic YC. First of all, for those who were born an raised in the movement, they never had a momement where they were able to weigh everything and say well I will choose to believe this. They were always taught that it was right. They were always taught that John's word was equal to the bible. They were always taught that it was OK to reliquish power to the authority. By being raised in it, they were hopelessly "sold" on it from the beginning. Thier parents belived in it, and they loved and trusted thier parents so the believed. It's called indoctrination. It is the same thing that happens when Republican kids raise rebulican children by always telling them about the wonders of the republican approach, or vice versa with democrats.

Perhaps you had a foundation in God before the walk, many others do not. Do not assume that your experience in the Living word fellowship is par to the experiences of others. (I have had several others here and elsewhere aknowledge that thier experince was indeed similar and that the abuses they felt were similar. There is a reason that 90% of the generation that would currently be in thier late twenties to mid thirties has left the fellowship on very bad terms.) If you are older, as many of the other defenders of the walk, you may have absolutely no concept of many of these violations. When I left, and things could have changed since then, there were no sunday school classes teaching children about Jesus Christ like in other Christian churches. I have heard Marilyn say from the pulpit that she worries that the children and younger generations do not have enough of a revelation of John Robert Stevens. That was even a mission stement focus a few years back, imparting knowledge of John to the younger generation.

I have never heard anyone say that they were worried that that same younger generation didn't know Jesus Christ. Shouldn't a focus on JRS be secondary to Jesus Christ? Yet imparting the knowledge of Jesus Christ to the younger generation has never been a championed value in the fellowship. Ask yourself this question, if the fellowship teaches people to have a solid foundational relationship to Jesus Christ where he is the supreme authority, what would happen if your shepherd told you that he had a word for your life and confirmation from other elders that you should do x and y. And your response was, "no the revelation of Jesus Christ in my heart does not bear witness to do that at all." Would they graciously accept that, or would they talk to you about the importance of confirmation and try to overpower your personal revelation? Would they perhpas label you as arrogant if you persisted in holding fast to your own revelation and refused thiers? Would they suggest that you were missing it, and not submitting and not growing as a christian. Would they invoke such ideas as, "oh well, then God will just have to take you around the mountain again." Saying they did not hold guns is foolish, did they use coercion tactics? Did they let you believe what ever you wanted to believe, or did they try to impress upon you that they had the truth for your life. No healthy church would ever even consider challenging what god has spoken to you about your life.

Perhaps no one has ever challenged you this way. I am starting to see that this strategy is invoked more upon younger members than older ones. More precisely on the members who were too young to have ever known John. Guilt is a powerful tool when you have never lived outside of the fellowship and you have absolutely no concept of God outside of the fellowship.

By the way, your tone sure changed once you had your IP address posted. Amazing how people post differently when they actually feel responsible for what they say.

[your conscience (4.12.214.185)]

Angry Chad, what is the name of your cult? Your crystal ball sure is giving you bad info. Listen closely, my intellectual friend who seems to know all. You are a pathetic, pitiful excuse for a human to say I was taught to give myself over and the implication that I am brainwashed is rich. The word PERVERT fits you like a second skin, you always misinterpret words, distort truths, you are the queen of spin. Also, a pathological liar. Your statements are bold and presumptious. You let on that you have shared G&amp;M's and Johns private thoughts and problems. Your rant is stale, it has no validity or substance. Your little tirade is more humourous than sad. In response to disagreeing, you are so far out of line and in left field, I truly do pity you. One thing, though, you are very skilled and talented in twisting and distorting facts and situations. I give you an A+.

Of course my toned changed, thanks to you! Little Mr. Slander and Treacherous mouth went crying to the moderator.

[your conscience (4.12.214.185)]

Way to go, Chad ole boy! What a smooth operator you turned out to be!!! I'm very, very impressed!
Your buddy Larry Bobo and Bugsy - good cop -- bad cop. My! How clever. This is such an exciting message board, I'm going to now recommend it to all my friends!!! I now give you an AAA++++++!!!!! You make me proud, cordially yours,

[Anonymous (207.69.90.104)]

People are not going to be led anywhere they don't want to be led. That is the thing about cults, the leaders think they are controlling the members, often time it is the other way around. That is the way it was for about a year before John Robert Stevens died, Marilyn was manipulating him, changing the emphasis of the word all the time.

[Anonymous (207.69.90.104)]

When the man that starts a movement is alive, it's still a movement, when he dies the movement becomes a denomination to some and a cult to others, but it ceases to be a movement.

[Anonymous (207.69.90.104)]

Marilyn was to the walk what Yoko Ono was to the Beatles.

[your conscience (4.12.214.185)]

Anonym_ss, Hold on there, you seem woozy, dizzy, befuddled and dazed!!!!! It's nice that you have torn yourself away from your idyllic utopia to join us. Your comical enlightenment is laughable, preposterous and silly. I enjoy your deeply disturbed thinking. What an imagination!!!! You are truly a delight. But I must tell you, you've got alot of capable competition to go up against. For your last absurd post, you sir are what Monica Lewinsky was to Bill Clinton. (Do you need me to send mouthwash?)

[Morpheus (202.66.33.93)]

Your conscience, why do you presume to be everyone else's conscience?

Why do you go around attacking individuals?


You claim to believe in the Bible, yet when scripture is quoted, you chuck it away, call it all sorts of names, and attack the individual. Aren't there other examples of this happening in scripture, where different people were attacked for speaking the truth, and some were even killed? I think I've seen some examples of this in my Bible somewhere.

Matthew 7, especially verse 6, holds even more meaning now.

But that's ok. There are some people on here who are looking for the truth. But there are others who are trapped, and will fight to defend The Matrix that is The Walk. They are caught up in a system that is using them.

This forum offers you a blue pill or a red pill. One will allow you to stay inside the system. It may even strengthen your bondage to it. The other will help you see the truth. It will set you free. One is Gary, Marilyn, and anyone else who benefits from the deception of others. The other is Jesus, who came to bring eternal life to those who believe in Him.

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"If anyone acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will openly acknowledge that person before my Father in heaven. But if anyone denies me here on earth, I will deny that person before my Father in heaven.

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household! If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will find it.

"Anyone who welcomes you is welcoming me, and anyone who welcomes me is welcoming the Father who sent me. If you welcome a prophet as one who speaks for God, you will receive the same reward a prophet gets. And if you welcome good and godly people because of their godliness, you will be given a reward like theirs. And if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my followers, you will surely be rewarded."</FONT>
Matt 10:32-42

Jesus said that, not Gary and Marilyn Hargrave, so please don't attribute it to them.

I pray that you would accept Jesus into your heart today. Accept the sacrifice that He paid for all time by dying on the cross. He came to be the final sacrifice necessary to give you eternal life. Please don't let another day pass without searching out the truth for yourself in the Bible. Here are some really great ways to do that for yourself:
Take a vacation and take only your Bible and a new notebook. Ask God to speak to you. Take notes.
Pray that Jesus would show you a church to visit that is not connected in anyway to the Living Word. Ask questions. Notice the kindness that is shown to you, a perfect stranger.

Jesus, I ask that You would remove the deception from peoples' eyes. I ask that You would renew their minds, hearts, and bodies. I ask that You would ifind and heal the people who are lost in darkness. There are many who have scales on their eyes. Please help those who are searching for You, those who are searching for the Truth that brings everlasting life instead of hell and gnashing of teeth. I ask that You would help them put their trust in You. That Your light would shine through any deception or lie that darken their minds. That You and You alone would receive all glory, honor, and praise. Amen.

[Morpheus (202.66.33.93)]

P.S. Jesus proved that He was God. He rose again. And He lives.

John Robert Stevens is dead. His words have not been proven true. Much of what he said has been proven false over time.

Nothing that Jesus said was untrue or a "mistake." He did not go down one path, then realize that maybe God really intended for Him to really do something else. He was blameless. Without sin.

Saying that God was leading John Robert Stevens down many different paths that were not true is heresy. It is blasphemy. It is not honoring to God. He does not make mistakes.

Instead of sticking to God's Word, John and Gary and Marilyn have portrayed their teachings as the Word of God. And much of it has been not stood the test of time. So they've asked you to forget the past. "Don't look back. Just believe this fresh teaching today, and you'll be ok. Trust us. We love you. And we'll never abandon you."

Don't sweep their "mistakes" under the carpet. Don't excuse them and being mistakes that God has made, about the gold mine, or John's first marriage, or Gary's first marriage, or Marilyn's first marriage. Each one of these people stood before God and man and vowed to love another person eternally. Each one of these people later divorced that person and betrayed a person that God had joined to them. If they are willing to renounce their word to their spouse, God, and other people that easily, how do you know that they're not betraying you as well? How do you know that they have not sold out God as well? Character matters, especially when it concerns spiritual leaders and "apostles" of God, but Gary, Marilyn, and many of their "Apostolic Company" have betrayed the ones closest to them. Don't let them lead you astray. Don't believe the lie that they teach. Loved ones have been burned. Why do you think that you would be treated any differently?

[Xwalkite (207.69.90.220)]

Maybe some of the ones that are in the Walk nowdays will enlighten me about what they finally settled on on the subject of resurection life. I went to Shilhoh once after JRS died and they were expecting to see John appear there, matter of fact, that was the whole thing, to prophesy anything else was to be out of it. "The line was drawn" once again in the Walk between those that were going to wait to see JRS rise from the dead, (they thought he would be the first) and those that wanted to go on with the Lord. That was one of the major splits in the Walk.

It would seem that some of the present Walk members would be interested in the way that some of the history of their own movement unfolded.

[Anonymous (207.69.90.220)]

Personally, I don't view being in a cult as that big of a deal. I can point to several types of accepted mainstream churches that can be proven to be cults. I still like the people in Living Word, though the theology sucks.

[Anonymous (207.69.90.220)]

Well, God didn't tell me not to get involved in Latter Rain. Check this out, you will find lots of churches that believe like you do:

http://latter-rain.com/

[Anonymous (172.147.195.226)]

Living Word is a dangerous man-worshipping cult. Get Out!

[your conscience too (4.12.214.185)]

Morphie, don't be so skinned about my user name. Me attacking? That's rich!!!Both you and Chad are the ones expressing yourselves in a hostile, antagonistic and undiplomatic manner. I'm against you attacking the living word. It's weird when people on this board say they love the people but hate the word, they are one in the same. Also, I know for a fact that we are all equals. It's in my personality not to hold people to high standards, no matter who you are or what position you have. When it comes to everyones faults, I pray for them, but its not really my problem - its Gods. What they do doesn't affect, change or alter my beliefs. If they aren't following what they preach, its their head, not mine, (only if I don't judge them of course). We can't control how people take or use God's teaching. It's really up to each individual. The hardest part is disagreeing and knowing some things are not right and still loving them like God's loves us with all of our faults. No getting around it, either ask God to give you the will to want to love them, or go else where. Life is always about choice, no man should judge which one is right or wrong.

[Anonymous (207.69.91.158)]

All I want to know is HOW MUCH MONEY DO THE ELDERS MAKE?

[Evin (24.31.53.193)]

The general elders do not earn any money from the church.

Certain overseers within APCO, Gary and Marilyn included, do have yearly salaries, as do some of the publishers of the Word. Specific numbers I don't know--but I know the people who do earn these salaries, and they can be working up to 80 hours a week. They're not living in mansions. They're not driving Ferraris. They're normal.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Evin,
I attended several shepherds conferences where salaries were discussed. In spite of what others outside of TLWF have said, everyone was living sacrificially at that time. I did think it was a little extravagent for G&amp;M to have several homes though. If they only have one house now it reflects favorably on their stewardship.

When I left, many who were my age, in their forties and fifties, were still struggling with the financial side of their lives. They still did not own homes and had no preparation for retirement. Many had bounced around to several states serving TLW and hadn't gotten their roots down deep enough to provide for their later years. Hopefully that's also now being taken care of for everyone and not just the leadership.

Well balanced financial teaching has been one of the new benefits I've received at the church I now attend. It has made a huge difference in my living situation. There's a lot of great info out there that I'd never been exposed to in the Walk.

[XWalkite (207.69.93.43)]

Larry, that is one of the sad occurances, and it happens in just about every church. Some elders line their pockets, while others live sacraficially. All in all, from what I have been reading, the Living Word Fellowship faces the same problems most denomiations face. I have been reading carefully and trying to learn everything I can about the "shepherding" thing. All in all, my oppinion is that the Living Word is no worse than it was when I was in it, and probably it is a healthier church than it was in the late 70s. It would be a lot healthier if the powers that be in that church now were to affiliate themselves with other Latter Rain churches.

[Seraph (203.110.131.42)]

A 5th thread
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/1728.html

[xwalkite (209.86.141.126)]

All in all, just the fact that Shiloh is still open and is a blessing to the comunity means a lot. I am very happy to hear of the outreach of the Walk, that is the thing that determines if the church will be healthy, if it is open and free to express outwardly, nothing hidden.

[Xwalkite (207.69.92.124)]

I have never heard anyone say what John Stevens' salary, it is as if that is completeley off limits to discuss. I see no reason to look at it that way, he deserved to make something too. I would venture a guess that he made the medium income for the Walk, just as he said elders should. I could be wrong, but I don't think JRS was in it for the money.

[XWalkite (209.86.130.141)]

There is a guy that is transparant and he is nodding in agreement with men, when I said it is time to say something. I think it is time to build a bridge from Church of God to Living Word Fellowship. It's time to blend, two major portions of the Body of Life that will never be the same after some good bonding. What do you say?

[Xwalkite (209.86.130.141)]

I say give us all your women and let us have your wine and pills and you can have our baby back ribs and our beer, we can bond beautifully.

[XWalkite (209.86.130.141)]

To answer that post on 2:29 on 2/8 I like the walk better laid back than the way everybody was back in the 70s and 80s.

[XWalkite (209.86.130.141)]

This is starting to show that there is life up there when you scroll up, it's there, a party is going on up there and it is the coolest party. Real oneness coming forth. A real blending of these two vital forces in Christianity. I love it.

[Xwalkite (209.86.138.246)]

It seems to me that the 4th genernation, or which ever generation we are in now, may be the best Walk generation as far as being open and honest and willing to share the messages of JRS with other people outside of the fellowship. For real sharing to happen, it has to be a willingness on the part of those in the Walk to partake of what other churches have. There are things that have been their focus that the Walk may need. True sharing to take place, each side shares, and each side partakes.

[Anonymous (207.69.79.98)]

Dam, will anyone post here except Xwalkite? What is the meaning of this?

[Anonymous (209.86.143.173)]

This thing of designating relationships, setting shepherds over someone and they are supposed to obey without question,,,,how do I get a 21 year old virgin........

[Anonymous (207.69.83.144)]

"Anonymous
Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 02:16 am" said it best. Walk people are a lot of fun, but they have some quirks.

[Anonymous (209.86.140.75)]

Check the message board for "Maranatha Latter Rain." They might have been copying Living Word, or Living Word may have been copying them.

[Anonymous (209.86.140.75)]

Check the message board for "Maranatha Latter Rain." They might have been copying Living Word, or Living Word may have been copying them.

[Anonymous (207.69.80.153)]

The Manifest Sons of God teaching

The Latter Rain movement of the late 40's had given birth to numerous other sub-teachings. The Manifest Sons of God was divided into two major sects. The Walk, and the Body of Christ. The Walk came out of the Latter Rain Movement under the “apostleship” of John Robert Stevens, who like Paul Cain and others was a William Branham disciple. His was the Church of the Living Word in Redondo Beach, California.
The Charismatic Dominionism expressed in spiritual warfare and the current signs and wonders movement is largely an extension of the Manifest Sons of God doctrine. Manifest Sons teachings are Kingdom Dominionist: they believe in restoration of the Church, restoration of the 5 fold ministry with the offices of apostles and prophets, having authority through its leaders by strong shepherding and discipleship. A perfection of the saints, immortalization, and the attainment of being Christ as we become just like Christ in nature and ability. The Manifest Sons of God doctrine has an eschatology of Dominionism through the perfecting of the saints under the leadership guidance of the latter-day prophets and apostles. They mostly deny a rapture in the classic sense. Some replace it with individual raptures, a collective transformation to immortality on earth, or none at all. This quote is representative of the teaching “the doctrine of the Rapture was a great and effective ruse of the enemy to implant in the Church a retreat mentality ... already this yoke has been cast off by the majority in the advancing church, and it will soon be cast off by all.” (Rick Joyner, THE HARVEST 1989 /1990 revised booklet on pg.121)

We are talking about the great and blessed hope of his return. In its place is triumphalism by installing a new leadership for the Church. If there is no rapture than there is no resurrection, they are simultaneous events!

Considering what Joyner first said he later changed it in his 1993 printing of the Harvest as it became the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture (p.201) In this he fares no better as he takes the position that the Church will endure through the tribulation. despite the Scriptures teaching that the saints will be overcome in the tribulation, and few will survive. Hardly a scenario that manifest sons of God can agree with. this becomes even more problematic when brought to its conclusion of the Church found ruling when Christ comes back. Certainly to look forward to the Lords coming as any time is not retreating but hopeful. One does not need to abandon everything to do this and wait on the top of a hill in white robes as some did over century ago.

The modern Spiritual warfare practice that is an attachment to the signs and wonders movement finds its roots in the Latter Rain as well. The revival will come by the Church being led by these leaders in defeating demonic spirits through spiritual warfare prayer, fasting. The spiritual warfare conducted through intense worship and praise, and by spiritual mapping, identifying strongholds, rebuking demonic powers and binding territorial spirits.

“God's people are going to start to exercise rule, and they're going to take dominion over the Power of Satan. They're going to bring diabolical princes down. The dark powers that hover over the Parliament buildings of the nations are going to be paralyzed by the corporate prayer of an authoritative community. As the rod of His strength goes out of Zion, He'll change legislation. He'll chase the devil off the face of God's earth, and God's people together, doing the will of God, will bring about God's purposes and Gods reign. “ (Ern Baxter, National Men's Shepherds Conference, Kansas City, Missouri, 1975)

The apostles will rule the Church through establishing independent churches, unaffiliated with the corrupt denominations (Branham's teaching). The exception which is currently underway, is that denominational churches would abandon being separate, join the movement coming under their leadership. It is essential to the Latter Rain movement for the church to be unified as one, under a central leadership. Otherwise Christ cannot be incarnated (manifested) in the Church and give his power to conquer the world for Christ.

That the world will be conquered through an elite group of overcomers who produce signs and wonders unlike anything ever seen, even in the early church by the apostles. This they believe will lead us to the greatest revival of history. An endtime harvest of billions of souls, where the majority of the world will be won to Christ and the kingdom would be established or ready to be received by Christ. “This harvest will be so great that no one will look back at the early church as a standard; all will be saying that the Lord has certainly saved His best wine for last. The early church was a firstfruits offering, truly this will be a harvest! It was said of the Apostle Paul that he was turning the world upside down; it will be said of the apostles soon to be anointed that they have turned an upside down world right side up. Nations will tremble at the mention of their name.” (Rick Joyner, Restoration, may/June 1988, the Harvest)

What does Joyner mean they will turn the world rightside up?Are they going to undo the work of the Apostle Paul, or maybe he means a new thing altogether.

“Angelic appearances will be common to the saints and a visible glory of the Lord will appear upon some for extended periods of time as power flows through them. There will be no plague, disease, or physical condition, including lost limbs, AIDS, poison gas, or radiation, which will resist the healing and miracle gifts working in the saints during this time. “ (Rick Joyner, The Harvest, 128-129)

The apostles and prophets would give blessings upon those whom bless, and curses upon those whom they curse. The power of their words would bring results. They will complete the conquest of the nations before Christ returns. The conquering will be done as “Joel's army “ a group of immortal beings that will bring judgment upon the ungodly and all who do not accept the authority of the NEW Apostles and prophets. The tribulation is replaced with manifestations of power executing Gods judgment through Joels army to cleanse the earth of the evil and bring order to establish his kingdom.

Those who go further into the different levels will achieve a certain degree of holiness under the direction of the apostles and prophets. They will overcome death, and will become immortal.

The manifestation of the Sons of God

Rom.8:19 “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”

“The Earth and all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, the time when they will come into their maturity and immortalization... When the Church receives its full inheritance and redemption then creation will be redeemed from its cursed condition of decay, change and death... the Church has a responsibility and ministry to the rest of creation. Earth and Its natural creation Is anxiously waiting for the Church to reach full maturity and come to full sonship. When the Church realizes its full sonship, its bodily redemption will cause a redemptive chain reaction throughout all of creation.” ( Bill Hamon p. 385 THE ETERNAL CHURCH) This is what is called in the new age the paradigm shift, while biblical terms are used it is identical in its process and affect .

“I see the great year of Jubilee, when we shall pass through the veil into the very Presence of the fullness of God, to be filled with this fullness and go forth proclaiming liberty to all of creation. Romans 8 calls this the “Manifestation of the Sons of God”, and Says the whole creation is groaning and crying for this day. ...This is the ultimate anointing! This is the fullness of the Spirit! This is the Spirit without measure that Jesus had, spoken of in John 3:34, reserved until the end time for His Brethren!”' (EAGLE SAINTS ARISE, Bill Britton)

This whole teaching is based on a distortion of Romans 8:19 which speaks of the “Manifestation of the Sons of God.” The belief is that some will obtain immortality by incarnating Christ before he returns. What is it that all creation is waiting for? According to orthodox Christianity, all creation awaits the removal of the “Curse of Futility”, sin placed upon it by God from the Fall of Adam. What they neglect is the context and the other passages that explain this event vs.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”

The adoption the redeeming of our body, when, how?

Phil. 3:20-21: “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”

1Thess. 4:16-17: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Cor.15:51-54: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

After the Ascension, the angels told the Apostles who watched, Acts 1:11 “ This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” The Holy Spirit was sent soon after he ascended nearly 2,000 years age, there is no new sending of the spirit for the Church, nor any other way for Christ to come back but the Scriptural way. He comes back in the same body he left in, not in the church as the body. Anyone who says differently is denying what the revelation of the Scriptures say.

Heb.9:28: “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” It is Christ who appears and changes us, not some event separate from this. We wait for him, we cannot accomplish this on our own. It his coming that is connected to this even, and whether one believes in a pre, mid, or post rapture does not change the connection of his coming for this to occur.

It has always been understood that Jesus Himself is the One Who would do the restoring of the kingdom. When he comes again at the second coming the curse on the earth will be lifted we would be changed and he would reverse the affects of the curse on the earth. But biblically it is not until after the millennium that the new heavens and earth replace the former and death will be no more(Rev.21:4).

But, those who espouse the Manifested Sons of God doctrine have a different take on this. To them, all creation eagerly awaits the time when the “true sons” of God will finally realize “who they are in Christ,” conquerors and overcomers, and will come into their true Glory and Power as the Sons of God. It is they who will be the ones who will remove the curse, overcome all of God's enemies, even death! The historic church has been waiting for God the son in the 2nd coming. They teach that God is waiting for you and I.

In Jewel Van der Merwe's book, Joel's Army, she quotes Earl Paulk a influential “Kingdom Now” pastor, he explains his application of Romans 8:19 “The last enemy to be conquered is death. Who will conquer it? A mature Church will come forth with the kind of authority and power that will be able to stand in the very face of Satan. When the Church reaches that level of maturity, God will be able to say, 'This generation of the Church does not need to die. She has reached a place of maturity. I will translate her because her maturity pleases Me.'“

“Not only will they not have diseases, they will also not die. They will have the kind of imperishable bodies that are talked about in the 15th chapter of Corinthians ... this army is invincible. If you have intimacy with God, they can't kill you.” ( Paul Cain, “Joel's Army,” 1990 p. 218) [For more on Paul Cain's revelation of Joels army> go here]

Jack Deere says, “ they won't be able to kill this army.” John Wimber as well said, “those in this army will have the 'kind of anointing ...his kind of power ... anyone who wants to harm them must die.” This is Joel's Army.

Bill Hamon writes, “The Church will gain victory over the last enemy, death. Victory speaks of a battle being fought. The last day saints will wage and win a warfare against death. The last generation saints will come to translating faith in preparation for participation in the translation.” (The Eternal Church, P.349)

“Yes, sin, sickness and disease, spiritual death, poverty, and everything else that's of the devil once ruled us. But now, bless God, we rule them -- for this is the Day of Dominion!” (Kenneth Hagin, “Rejoice! This Is the Day Which the Lord Hath Made!” The Word of Faith, Sept. 1996 )

“When the Sons of God are manifested. “The saints will take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever... the Sons of Yahweh, one like the Son of man - not the lonely and blessed Yahshua of Nazareth alone, but the complete body of sons - Yahweh's masterpiece of the ages, the body of Yahshua, the house not made with hands - My Father's house of many mansions, each one whether individually or collectively 'An habitation of Yahweh through the Spirit”...these sons of Yahweh are indeed the 'One like the Son of man.”'(NEW BEGINNINGS, George Hawtin )

Speaking on the feasts (Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles)”.... typify the whole Church Age, beginning with the death of Jesus on the cross, and consummating in “the manifestation of the Sons of God”-the “overcomers” who will become perfected and step into immortality in order to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.” (George Warnock, The Feast of Tabernacles, 1951, pp. 14-20)

Quite a difference from the saints inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes and being servants (co-heirs) in it, adopted as sons (Rev.20:6). This is not a kingdom operated by humility but of power and force. This is why the take it by force teaching , and the pulling down of strongholds. Never mind that neither Jesus or an apostle never taught this to others, because this is what God is doing now. Its new, its fresh!

The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)

The Scriptures teach that we are servants (Galatians 3:10), friends (John 15:14-15), and sons (I John 3:1). There is no Scriptural support that Paul who was the least of the apostles, or any other apostle ever went beyond servanthood attaining sonship. Many epistles begin with the salutation by an apostle as a servant of God. There is no teaching from Paul or any of the other apostles believed they would go beyond these “levels” to become gods themselves.

This teaching today comes disguised in the word faith sector of the church where they teach we can speak things into existence just as God did ( Rom. 4:17)

Christ comes into the Church before he comes for the Church

Some believe that the second coming of Jesus is to be “in the Church,” before he comes for the Church. That the Church, his body will actually become Christ on earth, glorious and triumphant. They will go Conquer the land and then rule the nations with a rod of iron. Some believe that after the Church has taken dominion over the nations, she will hasten the day that will call Jesus back to earth and hand the nations over to Him.

This is nothing new and Charles Taze Russell actually taught this over 100 years ago. If you don't recognize his name he founded the Jehovah's Witnesses cult.

“Our high calling is so great, so much above the comprehension of men, that they feel that we are guilty of blasphemy when we speak of being 'new creatures'- not any longer human, but 'partakers of the divine nature.”“ .it is claiming that we are divine beings- hence all such are Gods,. Thus we have a family of God .... Now we appear like men, and all die naturally like men, but in the resurrection we will rise in our true character as Gods ... Then the whole family- head and body are addressed as one, as they will be under Christ, their head, saying: Arise 0 God, judge (rule, bless) the earth: for thou shaft inherit all nations. The Mighty God, and Everlasting Father of the nations is Christ whose members in particular we are.” (Watchtower, 10 &amp; 11/1881, p. 10, Reprints, p. 301)

“ under him as our head constitute the whole body of Christ, the 'Mighty God' (El-powerful one) to rule and bless the nations- ... and therefore be members of that company which as a whole will be the Everlasting Father to the restored race.” (Watchtower, 10 &amp; 11 / 1881, p. 10, Reprints P. 298)

As we can see this is well over 100 years old from a group that is a cult now, just as they were then. While this teaching may have changed in terms it has remained consistent. The JW's believe in an anointed 144,000 that the earthly class must relate to for receiving the benefits of the new covenant. Sound familiar? It should since this is exactly what is being taught by the apostle prophet movement. that we must come under their leadership and become an army to be victorious in the last days. This is just as cultic as the JW's view. There are no Apostles today as there were when the Lord hand picked the 12 and others who were apostolic legates under them. The simple reason is that no one has seen the risen Lord to qualify. All the visions and dreams do not to qualify someone for apostleship (see Acts 1)

But inside the Christian Church they taught no different. From Warnock's manifesto “Christ should visit the saints in the last great Feast, and minister His life 'In secret 'before He is openly manifested! Christians think it is a horrible thing that Christ's second Coming should be spoken of in this manner. When a Christian comes to that place where he really appreciates and understands and enjoys Spiritual things, then he can truly rejoice in the fact that Christ is coming back again to be manifested within. (THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES, George Warnock, Bill Britton 1951, p. 108). When he speaks of Christ he is meaning Christ being the anointing, not the person of Jesus.

William Branham “In them days it was God in a man, His Son, Jesus Christ. ...It was God In Christ, God, in a man, the fullness of the Godhead bodily In a man. God, in a man; now, it's God in men. See? The fullness of God in the Godhead bodily in His entire Church, manifesting Himself, fulfilling His Word. (THE MIGHTY GOD UNVEILED BEFORE US p.20) Here we have a the Manifest Sons of God teaching in embryo. Branham's misunderstanding of how God was in Christ and he paralleled this to God in the Church. The reason for this is, “ that God has always had skin on Him.” (ibid.21)

Earl Paul has been saying for years “We are on earth as extensions of God to finish the work He began. We are the essence of God, His on-going incarnation in the world.” (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens, 1985, p. 125).

The Church is not God nor the fullness of God, this denies the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son because it makes the Church on equality with him as many sons with the same nature.

“The completion of the incarnation of God in the world must be in His church...Jesus Christ is the firstfruit, but without the ongoing harvest, the incarnation will never be complete.” (Earl Paulk, The Wounded Body of Christ, p. 43).
“The living Word of God, Jesus Christ, was conceived in the womb of a virgin. The Word became flesh in the God-Man Jesus Christ (John 1:1). Likewise, the Word of God must be made flesh in the Church in order for us to bear witness to the Kingdom which God has called us to demonstrate.” (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens, 1985, p.60)

I would think it is apparent that there is a vast difference between the word made flesh by God incarnating in Jesus and becoming man and his residing in his people, the Church.

“The living Word of God, Jesus Christ, was conceived in the womb of a virgin. The Word became flesh in the God-Man Jesus Christ (John 1:1). Likewise, the Word of God must be made flesh in the Church in order for us to bear witness to the Kingdom which God has called us to demonstrate.” (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens , 1985, p.60)

Frangipane agrees with Paulk as he says “When the Spirit of Christ comes into the physical world, He must enter through a physical body... When Christ first entered our world as a child, it was Mary whom God chose to give Christ birth. Mary's life symbolized the qualities the Church must possess to walk in the fullness of Christ ... [God is preparing us as He did Mary to give birth to the ministry of His Son. Even now, in the spiritual womb of the virgin church, the holy purpose of Christ is growing, awaiting maturity; ready to be born in power in the timing of God ... the virgin Church is “in labour and in pain to give birth” (Rev 12:1-2) ... even now, he trembles and the heavens watch in awe, for I say to you, once again, the virgin is with child. Before Jesus Himself returns, the last virgin Church shall become pregnant with the promise of God. Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full statute of its Head, the Lord Jesus. Corporately manifested in holiness, power and love, the Bride of Christ shall arise.” (Francis Frangipane, 'In the Presence of God” Now Wine Press, 1994.Chapter: “The Virgin Shall Be With Child)

This is manifest Sons of God doctrine, it may not be called this by the speakers some may not even know of its roots but most to believe are well aware of its implications.

Kenneth Hagin believes the same thing with only a slightly different angle “We [the church] are Christ.” (As Christ is -- So are we, (Tape #44H06)

“Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth.” (Kenneth Hagin, “The Incarnation,” The Word of Faith, p.13, Dec. 1980).

Kenneth Copeland agrees with his mentor, “[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ” (Zoe: The God-Kind of Life, . pgs. 35-36, 41, 1989)

Copeland states “Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God.” (Now We Are In Christ Jesus, p.24,1980)

This means Christ was the pattern son, not unique, but only the first of a kind of many, many more.

Rod Parsley states, “In the old covenant we did not have Jesus in the flesh. In the next covenant we had Jesus manifest in the flesh. In the next covenant we had Jesus manifest in the flesh in a person but of many in a different form.” (Breakthrough 9/19/2000) Parsleys three covenants has the Church becoming what Jesus was exclusively. Yet he teaches now “For in him dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily that’s what it said the fullness of the Godhead bodily. .. Now it didn’t say anywhere that you wouldn’t have the same thing. Didn’t say anywhere that you couldn’t obtain unto the same thing.” “In Acts the matter is you’re an heir a joint heir with Jesus Christ. Jesus said don’t look at what I’m doin, brother what your gonna do is greater than what I’m gonna do. ” (Ibid.)

Morris Currello leading the unaware in a chant “Who are you? Come on, who are you? Come on, say it: ‘Sons of God!’ Come on, say it! And what does work inside us, brother, is that manifestation of the expression of all that God is and all that God has. And when we stand up here, brother, you’re not looking at Morris Cerullo; you’re looking at God. You’re looking at Jesus.” (Morris Cerullo, The Endtime Manifestation of the Sons of God World Evangelism tape 1)

Benny Hinn, When you say, 'I am a Christian,' you are saying, 'I am mashiach,' in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words. That is a shocking revelation. ...May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around” (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, November 6,1990)

“Are you ready for some real revelation knowledge....you are god” (Benny Hinn, “Our Position In Christ”, tape AO31190-1)

This certainly is a revelation, to God.

Hagin, Copeland, Hinn and the much of the Word/Faith Movement all are saying basically the same thing. Why? Because they are coming from the same source, the Latter Rain teachings which are enjoying new growth unlike it ever did before. The new anointing that is being dispersed brings their followers to a “new knowledge” of the Scriptures.

D.R. McConnell writes about the new revelation knowledge “When these truths really gain the ascendancy in us, they will make us spiritual supermen, masters of demons and disease. It will be the end of weakness and failure. In the presence of these tremendous realities, we arise and take our place. We go out and live as supermen indwelt by God.” (A Different Gospel, P. 21, D.R. McConnell, 1988.)

Much of this has been birthed through the Vineyard Church via the signs and wonders movement, Bob Jones, “the Church is in no condition for the Lord to come today ... He's going to come for a church that is mature in righteousness... progressively going in this righteousness until you take on THE VERY DIVINE NATURE OF CHRIST HIMSELF and you begin to see Christ in the Church. Christ won't come for the church until you see Christ in the Church until the Church looks like Jesus. PAPA (God) planted Jesus, He sowed Him down here in this earth to have a whole nation of brothers and sisters that looked just like Jesus ... His Son was a ALPHA SON, your children are the OMEGA sons and daughters.” [Mike Bickle interjects here, “Jesus was the beginning, but our children and us, we're included in this ... we're the end of this thing.” (quoted in Discernment newsletter)

To put sinners saved by grace on an equality with Christ shows how deficient these so called “anointed ones” are in biblical understanding.

Today this movement comes in many names, the current and most popular clich&eacute;' is “the anointed,” Christ, they say they are “anointed” Christ, exactly what Jesus warned about in Mt.24. That they can do exactly what he did, dispense the anointing and do miracles. Welcome to the Church of the 21st century.

sources used:

&middot; Discernment Newsletter Jewel Van der Merwe

&middot; Vengeance is ours, by Al Dager

&middot; Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements


W. Branham's History What is the true Latter Rain Branham's teachings

Manifest Sons of God doctrine Paul Cain A Prophets Prophet Joel's Army

The "new order" of the Latter Rain Branham's beliefs The new thing

Kingdom Dominionism pt.1 Who has all authority? pt2 The cleansing for the Kingdom pt.3

Spiritual war Pt.4


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[Finally Free (198.81.26.106)]

Talking about salaries, I worked at a kingdom business, and while I was cutting a check to this so called "Apostle", the church was cutting him a check too. When I couldn't stand it anymore,I told Gary, and the apostle got fired, demoted, and then left the church.
BUt, what about the vision?

[XWAlkite (209.86.140.188)]

The interesting thing about the Manifest Sons teaching, is the idea that it will all be done separate from Christ and that there will be work to be done. It is clear that it is "at the last trump" but that doesn't phase anyone that believes they are going to be a 'super-son.'

[Xwalkite (207.69.91.59)]

You know, I was reading some of the stuff by Frances Frangepane, (a former Walk Pastor) and Earl Paulk and others, and it all sounds pretty good, and I can see how they can feel that the church must travail and bring forth the man-child. Trouble is, how do they get their idea that the Lord must be brought forth out of the loins of the Church, He comes to marry a bride, not to be birthed, He does not need a mother. I'm looking forward to some of the comments, I am interested in this theology.

[Xwalkite (209.86.142.70)]

FinalyFree, what does an Apostle knock down nowdays? I have to guess it's close to $100,000, and Gary and Marilyn must definatly have hit the $100,000 mark by now each.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

I've read through much Latter Rain and Manifest Sons theology and as with the Walk I think it's important to look at the fruit. To me, it's not all good or all bad. What evidence of immortality before Christ's return is shown in people's bodies not just in their doctrine? How are the principalities bowing to your rulership in a practical demonstration, again, not just in doctrine of claims to be a super son? How are you becoming one with the rest of the body of Christ or is your elite view of your self causing you to be isolated? Etc., etc.

I think that is why it is so offensive and unbelievable to some to hear about what God is doing in other parts of the world because it forces them to face the fact that there are areas where they only have a "word" and no fruit. It's humbling to face that you are not everything God is doing (it would never be stated but it's constantly implied) and need the other parts of the body or even worse, someone else is doing what you are boasting of in your doctrine but not actually doing yourself.

I know that God has significantly moved in certain areas of these Latter Rain churches, and there is fruit to confirm it. The damage occurs when the scriptures are ignored. The way to tell if a word is from God is that it happens. He is not a man that He should lie. To hold the Word up as a plumbline is meant to help, not be a character attack - unless you have something to hide. It should be embraced, not feared.

It's actually a good thing to go through our lives and find out what's working and what is not. It's nothing to be afraid of, He loves us and wants our lives to work. He created us and wrote the owner's manual. If you stick gas where the oil is supposed to go, the car doesn't run very well. We just have to be willing to go back and read the instructions again and do what they say.

[Xwalkite (209.86.136.159)]

There is a lot of truth to that Larry Bobo. I think too that too much can be said by some people here about how much control they have lost to Gary and Marilyn Hargrave or the aposolic company. These Gomers don't have to give up that control. Nobody will tell them who to have a relationship with if they don't ever submit it to anyone. There are some very good principles that could work better in Living Word, just as you mentioned in other Latter Rain churches, but people have to take responsibility for their own actions and their own destinies.

[XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)]

Xwalkite,

You used to live in Atlanta, right? Tell me about the Knoxville church. How many members did it have, what years was it around? Where in Knoxville was it located? Was it a home meeting or did it have an actual building?

[XWalkite (207.69.79.57)]

The Knoxville church was off of Kingston Parkway as I recall, I will ask my wife in a while and if I am wrong about that I'll post later. Anyway the whole Atlanta body was spawned by the Knoxville church in about 1978. We only had a few families that met in my house, but we traveled to the Knoxville church many weekends. It was a lot of fun, for the whole church to pack up and travel to Knoxville for the weekend. I would estimate that the Knoxville church had about 40 people at the most, it was small too. Craig Christian and Larry Hayes were the elders there, along with Tom Bradford. I think Tom and Louise Bradford are still in the Walk. I would like to know what became of the others. They were all great people. I think the Knoxville church did same as the Atlanta church, (and Memphis church) just disbanned after JRS died. The Huntsville Alabama church kept going for many years, but finally got out of the walk with Gary and Marilyn claimed that JRS was coming to them in their bedroom and speaking to them after he died.

[XPineConeX (152.163.247.62)]

Some people from the Memphis church are in L.A. now, and the Bradfords are in D.C. I think. I also know the Mehaffys are from Knoxville.

Did G+M really say JRS was visiting them from beyond the grave? What was he saying?

Was anyone in the Walk in the mid 80s right after JRS died? What were things like, and how were they different than things are now?

[Xwalkite (209.86.142.164)]

As I recall Gary and Marilyn were claiming that John would come to them at night and basically give them instructions, I guess just to help the transition from his regime to theirs. That didn't bother me that much, as I was already blown out over the whole scene of Marilyn taking over after JRS died. Of course, in reality, I don't know who else would naturally be next in secession other than Marilyn and whoever married her, I guess with comunity property Marilyn would have to be the next to kiss up to.

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

The claims that John was personally visiting them (from the cloud of witnesses apparently), as well as the claims JRS made that God personally appeared to him on a few separate occasions, and that he personally wrestled with Satan face-to-face (in the mid-70s, and finally taking Satan out in 1983, are sensational, to say the least. One time JRS remarked at a service that "Would you believe it if I told you that Elijah laid hands on me?" Apparently that was some meat that the congregation was surprised to hear. But you know they would have taken anything he said to be the absolute truth, 100% factual, with blanket acceptance.

How could anyone prove these claims? Obviously with these things there are never witnesses. Can spirits be videotaped? When I was younger I used to believe all those stories, but now I have a harder time with it.

I know John would sometimes pass out at the pulpit, supposedly being caught up in the spirit realm, etc. I wander what all he really saw.

[Grey/Fox (198.81.26.106)]

Jon: Your are all over the place. Your posts reflect quite a few different personalities you seem to have. I doubt your sister would use a syringe on you like she wanted to on me, but I strongly suggest that you take a urine test to see what kind of psychotic drug your're getting. Why are you being an ASS with the stupid questions posted above???? Don't you remember posting that you still get signs??? Why don't you question Evin on seeing angels? Don't go there where it concens John. Your dumb ass sisters attitude is showing. When you decide to leave the vipers nest, then ask. PLEASE - re-read all your different posts of late. Unless you have some kind of con going on, you are turning into SYBIL.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Jon,

I was around the LA Churches through the late 70's and early 80's and never heard any declaration from Gary and Marilyn that John visited them at night to give instruction. I'm absolutely certain I'd remember that one. Sounds like someone else's imagination or fantasy tale. I've always felt close to Gary and Marilyn because I recognize their integrity. Still do.


Now, about visitations from spirits: I don't doubt them as having had my own experiences. However, I have generally kept them to myself. Once I related my experiences even within the LWF and I got strange looks and responses of, "OIC, uh-huh...sure." These experiences are between me and God and there I'll let it rest.

[XPineConeX (152.163.247.79)]

Good points, guys. John Stevens did say himself to not get too "spooky" with spiritualism in the School of Prophets manuals.

But come on, you guys all know that there have been some outrageous claims like the ones mentioned above that were made behind closed doors. Thats what some people would call the "secret doctrine".

The realm of spirit has always intrigued me. Its very fascinating. That was really my only reason for asking those questions. Sorry they seemed so lame to you, GreyFox.

Perhaps mainstream Christians criticize what they call occult/spiritualism stuff because they have never understood it that well at all. Is something bad just because it is not understood? What do you think?

Said another way, what is so dangerous or bad about spiritualism, other than just what some conservative Christian opines about it?

[XPineConeX (152.163.247.79)]

GreyFox,

I'm glad we are becoming such good friends!

I guess due to genetics I do have some of my sister's attitude blended with my "objectivity".

Apparently I have been diagnosed by GreyFox with multiple personality disorder, sometimes showing the "sniveling victim wearing his emotion on his sleeve", the "lukewarm Christian", the "old-order Christian", the "unadventuresome, boring not-ever-taking-a-risk- Christian", "unprogressive Christian", the "Neanderthal Christian", "legalistic Christian", the "Martha busybody" (can a man have a Martha personality?), the "anti-spiritualist", the "anti-Christ in the earth", the "pharisee", the one "posting with an agenda", as well as exibiting "classic" bitterness, a "religious spirit", being a "nephilim", etc.

All you have to go on is my word, but why would I stretch the truth or make something up?

Also, I need to keep the discussion interesting, or people won't keep coming back and posting. I'm sure alot of people find our posting (and arguing) entertaining.

You know you look forward to checking these boards to see what all we write. I know I do. It wouldn't be interesting if we didn't disagree.

The whole "IP scandal" seemed more like something out of a new Fox reality T.V. show. A very bad reality T.V. show!

[GreyFox (198.81.26.106)]

Jon: You little twit!!!! You guys are GOOD at spinning. Your ass of a sister "StubbleBUTT" diagnosed me, I was just returning the favor. A Martha Busybody? (Since you mentioned it, "JON" is kind of GIRLY) That's pretty low, "nephilim". Why would you say that? I LOVE the line about your word and truth stretching and making something up? PLEASE tell me you are kidding? Since it is your style, BEND ME OVER my "IP" mistake. I deserve it. It just doesn't change the fact that you shoulder some responsibility over your situation. There just is no DENYING IT!!!!!!

Saying we're friends - just another typical example of TRUTH STRETCHING - I see.

[Xwalkite (209.86.134.40)]

"I was around the LA Churches through the late 70's and early 80's and never heard any declaration from Gary and Marilyn that John visited them at night to give instruction. I'm absolutely certain I'd remember that one. Sounds like someone else's imagination or fantasy tale. I've always felt close to Gary and Marilyn because I recognize their integrity. Still do."

Joe, back in those days they had restricted tapes, but as I recall the statement was made on a tape that had no restrictions on it. All I can say is that perhaps with all the crazy stuff going on in those days, it's easy to miss a statement about ghostly aparitions in the night.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Xwalkite,

Perhaps. I've heard enough of the restricted tapes and heard all sorts of "body-wide rumors", and have not heard this one. It is new.

[Anonymous (4.242.186.97)]

Just a thought. I don't see any vindictiveness from those that have left the church, but those in the church, MY GOODNESS!

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.197.2)]

Anonymous,

I believe you need to go back and read the post real slow. I could be wrong, but I believe the first post I ever wrote recommended that someone just listen to a tape. And Joe's doesn't sound vindictive to me.

[Anonymous (4.242.180.126)]

Bill, I really wasn't speaking to you. But if GreyFox is an example of the things I would come across in TLWF, I want no part. I respect you and Joe. You are not mean or hurtful. You debate fairly. I realize that a church shouldn't be judged by the people in it, but for an outsider, everything that is said by a person such as GreyFox is the thing that is remembered; not the respectful and intellectual discussion held by Bill and Joe. Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that they will know we are Christians by our love for one another?

[GreyFox (198.81.26.106)]

Anonymous: If you are Hope - Don't go there. Being little miss coy. And if you aren't, take a hike anonymous.. Judging me. I would'nt dance on the land mine if I were you, you sef-rightouse s.o.b. Smile to a persons face and stab them in the back. I only know too well how you chrisitans are. You are an unwise nut job if you think I'm mean. Haven't you been reading all the posts?

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.197.2)]

Anonymous,

You shouldn't be offended by GreyFox, it's just some people use different approaches than others. Some will cut your ear off like Peter. Remember Jesus even turned over the tables. That's not my personality, but if we were all the same, where's the fun. I have read every post on the board and we have been called a cult, John Stevens was a false prophet, an alcholic, that our teaching is wrong. Too many things to remember.

[Anonymous (4.242.180.126)]

Calling people an "ass" and "stubbleBUTT" is far more than Jesus turning over the tables. People were using the temple to gain money, they were defiling it. Jesus never did any name calling. He never degraded people. He had righteous anger. Everything He said and did was justified. Much, MUCH different than attacking someone and their sister. I don't believe that name calling is ever justified. It is mean, vindictive and hurtful, not corrective. Big Difference!

By the way, Peter was rebuked by Jesus for cutting of the ear of the guard! He told him to put down his sword.

Calling a church a cult is not a personal attack. Calling someone horrible things is personal. There is a HUGE difference. Look at all the other churches called cults on these message boards. I am sure that some of them are not necessarily cults. People are entitled to their opinions on things. That is why God gave us brains and a free will!

[Chad (198.81.26.106)]

Bill,

"You shouldn't be offended by GreyFox, it's just some people use different approaches than others."

Come on now Bill, you don't seem to be that giving with people who post things you don't agree with. In that case you play the label game and call them "angry" and "hateful" and "vengeful" and "vindictive." You warn them about comming judgement and how they will have to face up to God for posting here. But when someone is from your church and attacking people you really deep down want to attack too, then it's "aww shucks, why not, where's the fun in all of us being the same?"

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Bill,

You are wasting your breath writing to these guys. They have made up their mind about TLWF. They somehow get their jollys trying to get current members in an (argument)discussion. Don't waste your time you will never change their mind. They are just relentless to prove there is something wrong with this church. Stop wasting your time. Speak the word somewhere were it will be received because it certainly won't with these guys who walked away or were asked to leave.

Grey Fox you are really making matters worse and certainly not projecting the spirit with which most of the people in this fellowship are filled with. You especially need to stop writing. You aren't helping anything.

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.197.2)]

Ok Jon.

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.197.2)]

Anonymous, 4.242.180.126

I don't think calling someone a dog was very nice but who am I to argue with Jesus. God called Jacob a worm. But people can say hurtful things,
like I don't love you anymore, and it cuts a lot deeper than any curse word or name calling.

I take calling us a cult as a personal attack.
We were not only called a cult but,

They preach Christ but pratice the anti-christ.
Egocentic sociopaths
Brainwashed
Misled
Brain of a child
F***ing Church
F***ing Cult
Introducing destructive heresies
Spiritual Voodoo
Running a cult and a scam
G&amp;M hopelessly out of their minds or lying abusive sociopaths
Social Misfits
Whitemagic-like teaching
We were encourged to put are teaching aside
Perhaps it was because John was a living taint of idolatry and occult blasphemy
Stick you with a syringe full of Thorazine
I don't think I need to find more, but if someone wants to add to the list be my guest.

Chad,

When I told Larry what I thought, it wasn't an attack, it was just a warning like the one about the book. The time when I got really mad, was when I thought Joe wasn't be treated fairly. To be honest, I don't like attacks from either side
but I'm glad GreyFox is on my side. I could be wrong, but from what i've read, GreyFox would stand up and fight for all of you, unlike some people, if you would quit bashing the Living Word of God.

[hope 123 (4.242.189.58)]

Well, lets move on. I can see how those things would be hurtful. Can we cultivate a valid discussion between the two sides? I would prefer to call "mainstream christianity" ORTHODOX christianity. Instead of using the word "cult" lets use the word UNORTHODOX. I don't like the word cult. It is far too subjective - too many meanings to too many people. It also has an extremely negative connotation. Lets leave that word behind along with all the hurtful things that have been said - on both sides. I want to be able to have a discussion with people in TLWF without them thinking that I have hate in my heart for them. It has been five years since I left the church and I don't intend to dig up all the emotions I went through when I left the church. Can we just from here on out have some good discussions about our differences?

Is anyone offended by "orthodox" and "unorthodox?" If so, maybe we can find different words for describing our differences that don't have the negativity attached.

P.S. I respect GreyFox's passion for his church. Can we make that passion productive? More Christians need the fire and conviction for their beliefs like he has. Can we channel it into a great learning experience? The best teachers are always the most passionate.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Bill,
You asked on an earlier post what I felt the fruit of my words were in these posts. Just like you, I am looking for the healing of those who have been hurt and part of that process is to know that their experience is not unique, they are not alone, even if they have not had an atmosphere to be heard in TLWF. I know that there are other christians who can meet their needs and I know it's important for them to get connected into a fellowship where they can be healed.

I have been corresponding with several privately as a result of this site and hopefully pointing them to a relationship with the Lord as opposed to away from the Walk. Just like within the Walk, not everyone who has left the Walk wishes to debate issues in a public forum. Many people who are not posting are reading this site.

I've tried to be as open and honest as possible from my first post, including using my full name and I appreciate the fact that you have chosen to do the same. Much of what has been said here would probably be different if it had to be done in the open.

I don't believe any of the names you listed above are names I've used in the first person as an attack on you or TLW. I realize that to disagree doctinally with the teachings of TLW is perceived as a personal attack - it honestly is not. I have many christian friends in many denominations that I do not see eye to eye with doctrinally and we still love each other dearly. I wish it could be the same with those in TLW. To leave the Walk is to become a second class reject and it simply is not true. It is however, something that needs to be talked through.

I honestly do not think every prophesy JRS spoke was a word from God. To post examples like the Las Vegas mine only seems to cause a defensive reaction. That just happens to be the first thing I questioned after coming into the Walk in 1969. The This Week volumes are full of unfullfilled predictions and dates (or at least periods of time) that have to be deliberately ignored to assume TLW is infallible. I simply could not stay in the Walk with a clear conscience knowing I had to accept infallibility of the word. If you are really interested, take a look at my very first post for a few other areas.

Are there valuable truths? Absolutely - and I don't think anyone who has left the Walk would disagree. Are there areas that the rest of the body of Christ could help the Walk with? Absolutely - and again I think you would find agreement with many posting here. To quote Joe, "We need to connect to the outside, otherwise we will not be anything more than a closed, paralyzed "cult". We need life from without." 2-22-04 That was the post you wanted me to reread because I had stompped on his heart. I really wasn't doing that. I wish we had face to face dialogue so we could see each others eyes and body language - these words would take on a completely different meaning.

There does seem to be progressive in the communication lines in many of these threads. Hopefully it will continue. That's the fruit I would like to see.

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.197.2)]

Larry,

Well I guess we can agree to disagree, because I do believe every prophesy that John spoke was a word from God. Do I hate people that don't, the answer is no. Do I think anyone is perfect, again the answer no. As far as prophesies that haven't come to pass as of yet, the bible is full of them.
Would I say they are a lie, never. I'm not on this board to point out our differences, because it does no good. Here is something from One By The Blood.

When there is division, we have not sinned against each other; we have sinned against Christ in the first place. And that is the sin that really counts. It has built up; and every day, every year there is probably a bigger division coming between some until it LOOKS irreconcilable.
What a tragedy! Who is right! I am not interested in "right." I am concerned about the wickedness of EVERYONE involved in that division. Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no healing there? Isn't there something that we can partake of that shall heal our spirits and bring us into His presence? Isn't there a way that we can all feel the love of God flow through us? Let us break the bread and drink the cup together and say, "This is what I want."

I capitalized looks and everyone myself. That's the reason I'm on this board. Chad said that his faith was shattered like glass, is there no balm in Gilead? I believe there is for everyone on or off of this board.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Bill,
I certainly believe there is a way to disagree agreeably. Much of TLW I don't have a problem with but many of the prophesies that contained dates do bother me. The kingdom dawning in 1979 is a big one. Much of the 1970's word contained references to things that were supposed to happen within that decade and did not - famine, financial collapse etc. JRS taking down Satan with his death is another area that troubles me. John saying that if they carried him out feet first then this living word was not true also bothers me.

I do believe we agree on many of the essentials, e.g. accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior. It's being born again that makes us each a part of the Father's family and brothers - not our doctrines. I feel also (as JRS taught) that every word needs to be confirmed by the mouth of two or three witnesses. To just accept every word as a word from God from one person, without confirmation, I feel opens the door for deception. If that confirmation comes outside of your group, I think there is even more safety. If these divisions between groups can be broken, there will indeed be a manifestation of a living word to the earth. The doctrinal lines in many parts of christianity are starting to come down.

[Bill (4.11.197.2)]

Larry,

I'm sure dates bothered the Jews when God said they would be in captivity for 400 years, but they were there 430 years. What about Rev. 22:10, the time is near, how long is near. Do you ever wonder how many people that knew Noah, believed him at first, but year after year left. The part about the kingdom dawning is evident in the unfolding and the unwraping, at least to me. I don't want to discuss these issues any longer, because if you love God, where you go to church, thats fine with me. I'm not on here posting what I think is wrong with yours or others religions. It just looks like Jon has tried every religion, and obviously disagrees with something in everyone so far. I'm sure you don't agree with everything done in the church you go to now. I don't have a problem with your disagreement with some prophecies, I just believe you should not be questioning them here.

[Chad (198.81.26.106)]

Bill,

"Chad said that his faith was shattered like glass, is there no balm in Gilead? I believe there is for everyone on or off of this board."

Thank you for carrying that in your heart, that means a lot to me. And by the way, you may not have believed it, but I did mean that other post I wrote to you.

In case you were wondering about the faith issue, it has been reforged, even though I never thought it would be possible. And it is very different now, than it was. Much clearer. God can do many things, and most of them aren't nearly as hard or big for Him, as we tend to think they are.

You will probably also be glad to know this. I've come to a revelation lately. I don't think that it's my job to try and change the Living Word Fellowship. Really, that's Jesus Christ's job. It's God's Job. Even if there are serious problems and serious issues, whether or not they change, that's not my burden to carry. That's God's burden. That's His issue. I realized that I've been carrying this great heavy burden, that I don't have to carry. I just have to trust Him, that's all.

I don't say that to say whether or not others should post. Or whether or not others should discuss thier issues here. My only point is that there is great peace in trusting God. I hope that everyone finds that peace. When I started posting here, I was so angry, and I never thought I would find God or peace again. But I have, on both counts. If anyone out there has read my posts, and prayed for me, Thank you.

P.S. Bill, I noticed in that excerpt that John went and left the Jesus off of Jesus Christ again... Relax, I'm just messin with you. :o)

[ponderous (4.8.230.53)]

'Do you ever wonder how many people that knew Noah, believed him at first, but year after year left.'

True. But the flipside of this is that if you continue doing the same things and expect different results, this can be considered a form of insanity. TLWF claims to be guided by principles taught by Stephen Covey, yet they have systematically ignored one of the most important: listening to both those within the group, and outside of it, for possible keys of what might need changing. Instead, difference of opinion or perception is viewed as division-- and obedience, often blind, is elevated in the teachings. Therefore, real confirmation--which, by definition, cannot be influenced by the fear of retaliation--is almost non-existent. What key decisions effecting TLWF have gone contrary to what Gary and Marilyn have wanted? Is this because they are so perfectly related to God that they are never wrong in these situations? Or, is there simply not an environment in place that would tolerate input, no matter how healthy, that would be contrary to the wishes of leadership?
Something to ponder.

P.S. I doubt the words over the mine will be fullfilled...at least not in the way John indicated.

[Bill (4.11.197.2)]

ponderous,

Who is Stephen Covey?

[ponderous (4.8.230.53)]

Stephen Covey is a writer who stresses the importance of following certain indisputable principles in forming lasting, meaningful relationships. He's probably best known for his bestselling books: 'The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People' &amp; 'First Things First.'
He's been hired through the years by large corporations to examine their culture and provide suggestions that would improve profitability by empowering, rather than exploiting, the workforce. Covey placed a great deal of emphasis on the concept of transparency, where people did not use their position of authority to squelch contrary ideas.
Gary and Marilyn mentioned some yrs. ago that Covey's teaching would be a guidepost for interpersonal relations within TLWF. During one service Gary stated his opinion that Covey was an apostle.

[Bill (4.11.197.2)]

ponderous,

I looked up the name on google before I ask who this person is. That is the guy. As far as him being an apostle, I don't know, so I can't say yea or nay. I know Gary is an apostle, because he was created by the living word, and I got confirmation from God, not because somebody said so. I will say my guidepost for interpersonal relations come from This Weeks, not that I have attained all the teaching yet, but from the help of God I strive for that goal and beyond.

[Anonymous (4.242.219.218)]

Bill

what confirmation did you receive from God that told you Gary was an Apostle?

[Bill (4.11.194.221)]

Anonymous,

I'll be at CLW on friday night, I would be happy to share it with you at that time.

[Anonymous (4.242.186.77)]

Bill,
Im sorry i dont live in california and i wont be able to make it. I'd still like to hear about it though. I hope you all have a great passover, and I hope you blessed.

[ltbsht (4.8.230.53)]

Bill:
"I'll be at CLW on friday night, I would be happy to share it with you at that time?"

I'd like to give a heads up as well.
I'll be at the Burbank airport, terminal A, Saturday April 17 around 10 a.m. to share my revelation of the five-fold ministry and the gifts of the spirit to all who are interested.
I do not plan on answering any questions, though.



Mike

[Anonymous (199.165.116.71)]

Do any of the old timers here remember Bill Grier? He was one of the main ministry that was sent to the East Coast to start some 3 or 4 churches in the early 70’s. In the late 70’s to early 80’s he confronted JRS and other elders on many issues and they started to pray for his death (Bill’s). Since not many would listen to him or make any changes, the churches he was over left the “Walk” with most of the people. It was hard for him to do so as he loved the “Walk” and Bro. Stevens but his love for Jesus Christ and what was right was greater. I was only a kid then but my family knew and still knows some of the main people and secretaries that worked close to JRS in CA and lived in the “Blix” house right near him. So I know the facts of this time period. JRS really got deceived in many areas toward the end at this time. That was a long time ago and I don’t need to stir up any old strife with specifics. I hope a lot has changed since then. I actually have some relatives still in the “Walk” but I have not seen or spoken to them for a long time.

[mike (4.8.230.53)]

anonymous shares:
"In the late 70’s to early 80’s he confronted JRS and other elders on many issues and they started to pray for his death (Bill’s)."

Hmmm. You reminded me of something that has been missing from my devotional life for too long a time...praying for the death of those that disagree with me. It's wierd how with the passage of time you forget such vital keys like that.
Thanks for the pick-me-upper.


Mike Jones

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.198.22)]

Anonymous,

Who are your relatives in the Walk. Also, are you a member of the Whitestone Farms in Alaska.

[Anonymous (199.165.116.71)]

Wow Bill that was a good guess! Must have used my isp. Anyway, no need to say who my relatives are, but you are right I am from Whitestone Farms in Alaska. I was just surfing the net and found this site for the first time and thought I could post anonymously and find out if there were any people here that were still around from the old days. I probably should not have posted anything negative. Please forgive me if I offended anyone. That was not my purpose. I was just trying to post old history to see if anyone here would remember. I have nothing against the “Walk” and only good memories except for some tension there a little before and after we left as I was quite young. But everyone I know speaks highly of what they gained in the “Walk” and what God did for them there. We still use a lot of the Godly principles that we learned during the foundational ministry of Bro. John Robert Stevens.

I wish all that are in the “Walk” the best as I hope they are following on in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in all that they do. I wish the same for those who have left and if you have been hurt, remember God is in control, and the only thing we have control over is our response. If you have enemies it says to love them and pray for them. That would be good to do for your friends and strangers as well… As for me…

Phil 3:13 (KJV) "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,"

Phil 3:14 (KJV) "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Nelson Grier

[TLW (200.242.249.70)]

<CENTER>SERVICE NOTES
January 1, 1991 Tuesday 10:00 PM
Sao Paulo, Brazil

HOW A MOTHER CREATES THE FAMILY
*, **
</CENTER>

Summary: John is re-created in his sons by a mother who is driven to bring the fathers and the sons together. A true mother will create fathers who have a heart to love the sons, and sons who will fight for a relationship with their father.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: The sons have to work out their relationship with the fathers.

GARY HARGRAVE: And those that are supposed to be fathers have to be taught to relate to their sons. Right?

MARILYN HARGRAVE: Right.

GARY HARGRAVE: Otherwise it's a division.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: And see, the women know that. The fathers and the sons have to come together. And the women travail because fathers and sons fight, from the time the children are little. And the curse is broken when the hearts of the fathers are turned to the sons and the sons to the fathers. The curse is broken. And some women know how to do this. Very few, but some do. But it's the woman's spirit that knows that, if it's a true woman's spirit.

GARY HARGRAVE: You see, that's why there was more strict judgement on the ministers that should have been fathers, because the sons were crying out for fathers.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: They were open for it.

GARY HARGRAVE: But the fathers weren't fathers. They wouldn't relate back. So they would suppress.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: Dominate.

GARY HARGRAVE: Instead of create. That's why the anointing on Marilyn was so key, because she began to create the fathers into fathers so they would have the heart to come back and love the sons.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: And I stand for that. I fight for that. I'll fight anybody for that, because the sons are going to be free! And they'll be true sons. Not bastards. And it's happening. We're further into it than we know. Our sons are more mature that we understand.

GARY HARGRAVE: It's the mother's eye that sees the treasure in the field. It was Mary who first recognized the Christ. It was Mary that was the first to run to the graveside after Christ was resurrected.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: The woman's ministry is very important. And John loosed the woman's spirit. He liberated it.

GARY HARGRAVE: He created your spirit, so that you could create others.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: And the war is to hold in restraint the woman's true creative spirit. See, there's neither male nor female; we're one when it's perfect. And that's what John and I were. It's not a mystery; it's just simple. And so when John was taken, and for us to come forth as a people to walk in the Word, then it was the thrust of the battle to prevent the finality of the woman heart. And then the women's hearts will melt, and there will be neither male nor female. I feel that's almost accomplished, thank God. (MARILYN LAUGHS) The true woman makes her man a king. It's perfect.

GARY HARGRAVE: John could be an apostle and he could be a father, but if there was no mother to bring the sons and the father together, then there was no re-creating of John in sons. So the battle was to cut John off before he ever had a chance to minister to his sons. That's why that was the area of satanic battle.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: And that was Satan against John. We have the open door to create that now. See, death does not prevent us from completing the ministry to John as our being sons. We could faint, we could faint and quit because he's gone. And in natural thingking, there's no way of return. I don't understand it, but I'm not letting go. Before God, these sons are going to have a relationship with John on this earth. That's where John started--no rip-off. We have that ahead of us. There's where I stand.

As long as the sons are fighting to present back their relationships to the father, we'll complete the circle. It'll happen. But see, it can happen now! I'm not waiting. You don't have to be perfect; you just have to want it bad enough. See it. Know you can have it. If you know you can have it, you go have it. Now it's to make that alive to those with whom time has eroded the truth of it. See, time is against us. So that's why Brazil feeds and it's alive and we're going to do it. Yes! This was good! It's easy to talk to people when they know by revelation.

GARY HARGRAVE: But what they know by revelation is you. Because, see, there can be fathers and there can be sons, but until they're connected together by being created into what you and John were doing, they'll never fit. Just like a puzzle that will never come together. You'll have all these pieces, but they wander. Each has to be created.

See, it was the fruit of the woman, the outgrowth of the ministry of what she is, that would bruise Satan, that would end death. So it's got to come together.

That was the conflict that hit men's hearts after John's death. They may have had a revelation of John, but they didn't have a revelation of what John and Marilyn were doing to create. Because John was allowing to be created in <U>him</U> the father ministry. <U>He</U> was submitting to Marilyn and the creation of that father ministry within him, because he <U>knew</U> he could not create sons. He'd seen many, many men who became ministries for years never become the reduplication of his own spirit, even if they were prophets or apostles. He was looking for the sons--the double portion of his own spirit that would rest on men, the reduplication of himself.

That's what a father is. He reduplicates. He brings forth. It's the fruit that's re-created. And the fruit was never recreated. People would take certain aspects and go do their own thing. But his heart was never fulfilled with that. So John was given in those last years--that John and Marilyn would find the keys of the fathers and sons relating so true fruit would be brought forth. And that was the battle that people couldn't see.

You couldn't just see what John was doing; you had to see what Mom and Dad were doing, with your heart, to become one of the children, grown up into the fullness of what the father was and give yourself to that. Which meant you had to give yourself to the two. Right?

SILAS ESTEVES: Right. Otherwise it wouldn't work.

GARY HARGRAVE: Otherwise it didn't work. It had not worked for twenty years. John knew it wasn't working. The bodies here should have known it wasn't working. They were under leadership that wouldn't bring them forth. But this was changing everything. But that's why the key is what we still have with Marilyn, because she was the mother that John created, knowing that she was already called to be that. And now the sons and fathers can connect. Because if we have faith, she'll be able to create them both.

See, what did John say? The Kingdom is the family. The family is the Kingdom. That's why. If there's no family, there <U>is</U> no Kingdom. It would all fall apart, because he wasn't looking for a bunch of good ministers. He wasn't trying to create churches. He was trying to create the Kingdom, release the Kingdom.

<U>That</U> was the drive. That's what he was doing. It's not over yet. We can still do it. That's why what you've done is such a key, Silas, because you've given yourself. See, and they can see you becoming a father. Somebody could walk in and say, "Why is Silas such a father?" It's because he's given to a mother to be taught to be a father.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: Yes. Yes. Yes.

GARY HARGRAVE: See, and people can come and say, "Why are these people growing?" Because <U>they're</U> given to a mother, so they can learn to be sons. If the two connect, they'll grow up into one. The Kingdom is the family. This is not a church. This is the family. And there'll be amny fathers. And there'll be many sons, if we can be taught by the spirit of a mother.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: And then we'll know the true Father because it'll be His spirit coming back to the Father. Right? To lay at His feet.

GARY HARGRAVE: If we can learn to relate to fathers here, for the first time we'll understand how to relate to the Father in heaven.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: Only. Right.

GARY HARGRAVE: It's like the Bible says, if we don't love one another, how can we love Him? If we can't be a family here, how can He be our Father?

MARILYN HARGRAVE: We're being taught. The Lord's restoring how to come backto Him. There's one step after anothr after another. It's simple, but you have to obey each step. And each step is not an end. It's just a step to get there. And if you're obedient to each step, then He'll give you the next step and so we're learning to be the family, the restoration on this earth, the true family.

We have families, but we've never had the true family know how to relate and how to respect the father, the mother, where they fit. That's the restoration. So the family is being restored step by step. And then that is being taken further, and the next steps just ahead of us will make more sense--they will explain more what we were doing back in the beginning steps.

We're going somewhere with this teaching in obedience because God's bringing forth people that will relate to the Father. And there's not been a relating to the Father. Christ came to make a way so that the Father would have access to the Father, the Father would have access.

You see, you have to grow up through Christ. So we, not knowing how to relate to each other, really never knew how to relate to Jesus Christ, so we have John, we love John. John was as Christ to us. He taught us about Christ, he taught us the Scriptures, taught about the Father. Love John. Give your heart to John. It's like, "Follow me," says John, "I'll take you to the Lord." And so little steps. So, now we have to go way back now and follow the mother who taught. Follow the steps to be the family. I'll take you, I'll show you how to relate to the Lord.

We're learning how to just begin to relate to a natural father because we first have to have restored fathers in the natural to submit to who are pure, who are restored. The natural father will teach, then, how to relate to the Father. That's the Christ on the earth so that through the Christ on the earth we'll be able to find access to the Father. And we're very, very far into it.

GARY HARGRAVE: Like you said, it has to be the true father.

MARILYN HARGRAVE: True fathers. Restored fathers.

GARY HARGRAVE: That's why Marilyn hasn't been running around spanking all the children because she has to create true fathers for the children to submit to. And if they were really submissive, they'd be in bed already. (LAUGHTER) Looks like we had another service. (BODY AGREES) Maybe we should have another offering. (APPLAUSE) Oh, these guys are awesome.


COPYRIGHT 1991 BY THE LIVING WORD, A CALIFORNIA NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION.
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION IN WHOLE OR IN PART IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION.

[Greenspan (4.8.230.53)]

Alan Greenspan Says That the 2001 Tax Cut Was a Mistake
People like me who have enormous respect for the intelligence and judgment of Alan Greenspan have long been puzzled at his approval of the Bush administration's 2001 tax cut. It never fit our picture of who the man was and what he thought. Now, thanks to Paul O'Neill's reports of his discussions with Greenspan, we have a satisfactory answer:

Alan Greenspan said at the time that the 2001 tax cut was a mistake:

p. 162: May 22 [2001]... Greenspan arrived at the Treasury for breakfast with O'Neill. Their secret trigger pact had come up one vote short.... "We did what we could on conditionality," O'Neill said with momentary resignation.... "The first big battle is over, really. I think we fought well, we made our points vigorously." Greenspan said that wasn't enough. "Without the triggers, that tax cut is irreponsible fiscal policy," he said in his deepest funereal tone. "Eventually, I think that will be the consensus view."

[NBC (4.8.230.53)]

This partial script will hopefully help all of us searching for spiritual intimacy.

[Scene: Rachel’s Hospital Room, Ross is sitting next to Rachel.]

Ross: You said you’d marry Joey?

Rachel: Okay you have to realize, I was exhausted, I was emotional, I would have said yes to anybody. Like that time you and I got married! (Pause) I’m not helping.

Ross: So you said yes to him, and you just had our baby?

Rachel: That is right and traditionally the daddy is supposed to give the mummy a present but I am prepared to let that go.

Ross: So when I came in here to see if you wanted to maybe start things up again, you were engaged to my best friend.

Rachel: Well—Really? I thought Chandler was your best friend.

Ross: Well, Chandler’s my oldest friend, but Joey’s my—No! Ah! (points at Rachel)

Rachel: Ooooo!

Joey: (Enters) Hey you guys I’m gonna take off. I just wanted to let you guys know, say goodbye.

Ross: Rachel said she’d marry you?!

Joey: (He looks around the room) This isn’t the right room, sorry folks. (leaves)


[Scene: Ross and Rachel’s, Monica, Phoebe, Joey and Chandler are waiting for Ross and Rachel to come home and Monica is looking at the sign Phoebe bought that says, "It’s a Boy!"]

Monica: Ok, I don’t wanna be negative so I’ll say that most of the signs you bought are good.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Some comments on “How A Mother Creates The Family”.

The scripture referenced in this teaching, regarding the curse being broken when the hearts of the fathers are turned to the sons and the sons to the fathers, is Malachi 4:5,6. It says, “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse.” Maybe I’m overlooking something here between the lines, but I don’t see anything even remotely suggesting the key for this to work is for the father and sons to submit to the mother to be trained – unless of course Elijah is actually a mother. Maybe another principle that is hidden in this scripture is that the father will teach the mother and daughter how to get along. I don’t think so though.

As far as the conflict between fathers and sons is concerned (the above scripture references children, not just sons), I think the answer lies in the relationship they each have with their heavenly Father, not an earthly mother. Human nature looks to dominate and create a hierarchy but the new nature seeks to serve for the other person’s good. That new nature only comes from a relationship with God, not another human – male or female. Like Jesus, even though you have the position, you choose to serve rather than be served. Most people do not fight over who gets to be the servant; they fight over who gets to be the boss. Men tend to do this more directly -, women tend to use manipulation. All humans do it though, no matter how it’s disguised. The goal however is the same – to be the one in control. At first glance, I would say the purpose of this teaching was to give Marilyn unscriptural control.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:8-11, “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant”. The idea of a father/mother/ designated relationship human mediator between God and man, besides Jesus Christ, is simply not scriptural. It is a disservice to other believers to insist they cannot possibly understand the scripture without another’s interpretation and application. This was a key point in the Reformation when Martin Luther wanted to be able to read the Bible for himself and not have to relate to God through a priest.

God’s first commandment was “You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.” I think God loves us so much, He is jealous over anything coming between Him and us. It’s my opinion that this includes other humans as well.

The focus on ministering to the leadership, or the “upward flow”, is one area where I think the Walk took a wrong turn in the late seventies. Paul said the gift ministries were given for the equipping of the saints, not the other way around. It has been interesting for me to observe the ongoing struggle over “position thinking” that exists in the Walk. It will subside for a while, as long as someone maintains absolute control. I question the foundation of this teaching in the first place – who gets to play God for the next person in the chain of command. This conflict is not nearly as prevalent in the church I now attend. I was a little taken back to have leaders who had earned my respect by their example, wanting to serve me. It has a completely different spiritual quality to it. It is so liberating and it works!

Maybe this is only my personal experience, but after over thirty years of living off the Bible second hand in the Walk, I’ve noticed a tremendous improvement in its power to change areas in my life as I have gone directly to the source. Seeing the Father through the lens of another’s shortcomings (and all humans have them) only distorts our revelation. After enough negative experiences, we start to mistrust an absolutely perfect and faithful Father. This is by no means limited to the Walk. Many Christians let their pastor seek the Lord for them and they miss out on the first hand blessing that could be a part of their life. Going to the scriptures personally and asking the Holy Spirit to teach us keeps things clear and healthy.

I remember Gary saying that the only thing John did not do correctly at the time of his death, was to be open to his family. I would ask then, is “How A Mother Creates A Family” a viable teaching and did it work for John, who you are seeking to duplicate? I think allowing Jesus Christ (and I’m referring to the one who is now seated at the right hand of the Father, not the one incarnate exclusively in the Walk leadership – I no longer think they are one and the same) to put a new nature in you is a much better alternative.

[Anonymous (64.165.8.65)]

I have been reading these postings with alot of interest over the last couple of months...I left the Walk 10 years ago &amp; it was the scariest thing I had ever done. I was raised (more like neglected)in the TLWF. I had no family, no friends who weren't involved. Of course, all "bonds had been broken" from all blood relatives &amp; family friends who questioned the teachings, so I was pretty much convinced I was going to hell in a hand basket. But, you know what, I didn't!! And I got my sanity back, to boot!
It was heart breaking to have my "brothers &amp; sisters" pretend I wasn't in the same line at the Library (her children--who I had watched &amp; loved for years were standing there in shock as their mother turned her back to me) or to watch someone RUN the other way down the grocery store aisle. So I shed my tears &amp; learned an important lesson--pay back's a bitch!! Yes, I had shunned people who "blew out" or were out of favor with the shepards. I guess zealotry gives license to rudeness. I am working on my manners, now.
I did get a life! One that I thank the Lord for many times a day, one that would have been impossible to have if I had stayed in the Walk. These message boards are more like a support group, &amp; a little bit of a cheering section. Of course, I like to read a little dirt, now &amp; then, too.
I find it interesting that most posters have started going to other churches, I haven't wanted to delve into any other religions at all. So many horrid things are done in the name of somebody's version of God that I just am not interested.

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

"It was heart breaking to have my "brothers &amp; sisters" pretend I wasn't in the same line at the Library (her children--who I had watched &amp; loved for years were standing there in shock as their mother turned her back to me) or to watch someone RUN the other way down the grocery store aisle"

Hmmm. Even when I was in the walk the only reason I might run down the grocery aisle in this situation would be to make sure I was in front of you at the checkout line.
I might have asked you how you were doing while in mid-stride, though. I wasn't completely insensitive.

Mike Jones
(kidding...sort of)

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

"It was heart breaking to have my "brothers &amp; sisters" pretend I wasn't in the same line at the Library (her children--who I had watched &amp; loved for years were standing there in shock as their mother turned her back to me) or to watch someone RUN the other way down the grocery store aisle"

Actually, on a more serious note--the thing I most regret about the way I behaved while in the walk was toward a good friend that I shepherded with while in Redlands--who left shortly after John's death. His feeling at the time ('83) was that people had become obsessed with John to the point where he had become an idol...and his death might not have been contrary to God's will. The thinking of the church at that time was polar opposite, and we were explicity encouraged to cut ties with him and his family--which we did. Until that time our home had been always open to this family--my wife had watched her kids--but we subsequently shut them out. The wife happened to be far along in a pregnancy at the time and when she gave a few months later, we feigned indifference when called with the news. Since we had a Kingdom focus, we really couldn't be weighted down with the mundane events of those that had withdrawn from the fellowship. But yes--it does get worse. After their lives fade into the background of our Kingdom consciousness, and after we move from Redlands to South Gate ('90), I happen to come across him on the way home from work one day. At the time I was commuting back and forth between L.A./Palm Springs and had stopped in Redlands to fill up my gas tank (trust me, this type of crazy commuting was not that abnormal during this time period). While at the station I hear my name called, turn to see someone I don't immediately recognize. It turns out to be my old friend-- I mean the guy from a family who had withdrawn from the truth--and I notice that his head seemed quite swollen. He tells me that he had been suffering with brain cancer for sometime-a fight which he would ultimately lose that year. We chatted awhile, he was strikingly friendly and open, and as I drove home I was beset with an immense feeling of sadness and confusion. Frankly, I was baffled as to why God could be so cold to situations like that. The fact that it might not even be God, that I was misguided, never consciously entered my mind. When I finally left TLWF in '96 my first step in making amends was to contact his widow (via letter), and make an apology. She received it (graciously), and I began going about life a bit differently.

Mike

[Elaine Grier Eads (199.165.116.71)]

I grew up in my formative years in "The Walk" from the San Diego Church called Coniah Chapel. R.D. and David K. were the Pastors and and Gary Hargrave and JOhn Miller were some of the elders there...also Rich LIndy...I was 12-20. We left in 1980...painfully, I might add. We felt there was deception in terms of praying for people's deaths and infidelities in the Circle of JRS. However, I have 95% positive memories. My Father was a pastor and apostle(still is) and was rather "infamous" in the Walk...But we have all moved on in our walk with the Lord. Without the foundation of what we have in the walk we never would be where we are today. We have taken what we knew in worship and held to it and continue to write songs and record them to this day. Perhaps the biggest difference now in my life is seeking to LIVE a righteous life in everything I do...from my language, dress, etc... I knew Brother Stevens personally. I have a letter from him. He ministered to me many times and was very anointed and Godly always. But he was just a vessel. This is why checks and balances are vital so that none of us goes off course. His family stayed with our family for a week and I especially felt close to his daughter, Matha H....very special person. We talked about what it was like to be a ministries kid....she helped me immensly. Sister STevens, and her two daughters, Mary and Martha, spent time with me and treated me so nicely. In our fellowship we have many former "Walkites" and we are proud of that...it made us who we are now. We took the good and...well, separated the precious from the vile. I remember a powerful word JRS brought...called "Truthers and Liars" and he said that some people have facts but not the Spirit of Truth....so important to remember. I remember...Art and Rick Loomis, Daddy Inge and Wilson, From Coniah...Brent and Terry Finney, Cathy Gauthier, Rick Cota, Brenda Whistle....and on and on....I knew many of the ministry...and many of them stayed in our home. Fred and Eva Bickhart were so special. I married Emerson Eads who was(and is!) a well known song-writer in the Walk. We have been married 26 years...happily and have 4 wonderful sons. The Walk and the songs and the good words are all a part of my and their heritage. WE are not there now, but hopefully are still walking on and forward, not being BITTER about the past. We are so thankful for all the GOOD that we recieved. I would love to write to anyone that fellowshiped or fellowships now in the Sepulveda Church, Anaheim, Coniah....We were from Fallbrook. My Dad was Bill Grier. May God Bless all of you and may you find no excuses for bitterness...forgiveness for the wrongs, yes...but look forward...I'd love to hear from people .... I did notice how 99% of the people here post anonomously...what are you afraid of? I'd love to hear from any of you who might have known me or my family...

[XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)]

Elaine,

Great post! Perhaps you knew my mom, Libby Lashbrook, who dated David Kocas (Cocas?) for a period of time, before marrying my dad, Bruce Thomas. They met in Anaheim and were in the San Diego area from 1975-1983.

Its funny how I run into people or meet people who knew my parents. It is definitely a part of my heritage and I like reconnecting with them.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

It's a pretty weird feeling to see people you love and have spent 20+ years with at the store or wherever and have them turn and go the other way when they see you. I've had it happen many times. I usually force the issue a little and hunt them down and make them talk. I don't say that to be critical - I now know I did it to others who had left when I was in the Walk. I know they have been instructed not to relate but I'd like them to know I'm friendly towards them and still care about them. We are all a part of God's family and are supposed to relate.

When I first started posting I was communicating primarily with people who had left the Walk and were trying to work through doctrinal errors they had discovered as well as coping with real wounds that those within the Walk would not take seriously. Since then, many within the Walk have started posting (or just reading) and the difficulty that has arisen is that there seems to be no distinction for those in TLW between pointing out areas of scriptural concern and personally attacking them. Most of the rest of christianity is constantly examining doctrinal issues and does so without it being a big deal.

Those in the Walk are quick to say there have been mistakes but to say there have been doctrinal mistakes and TLW is fallible is as though you had cursed God and hated them. I love the people in the Walk and would like to see more of God's blessing on them. I know things could be healthier but to even suggest it is blasphemy. Just having the freedom to connect with other christians would at least be a step. I think it could also break some of the impasses TLWF is searching for. I know I've found answers for areas in my life that I could not find in the Walk. I think God has rigged this deal so no one group can feel they have superior revelation and they do not need anyone else.

[XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)]

"Most of the rest of christianity is constantly examining doctrinal issues and does so without it being a big deal."

This is very true. In fact, in Baptist churches in the southeast, the deacon/elder meetings get heated sometimes, and there is position thinking sometimes, the problems are very similar.

I guess to most people it may seem like being overly religious or legalistic, but I've actually grown to like arguing about doctrine. It makes your beliefs stronger. There is a way to constructively criticize it. I think most of the things and ideas I believe most deeply are those that I've defended when they were criticized. But I've also changed my mind when I realized I was wrong. I like to examine both sides. There are always two ways to look at everything.

I would say that every church member should have a say about the way things are done in his/her church. God has set each member in the Body as it pleases Him, and if you are tithing and involved, you should have every bit a say as the local apostle/overseer.

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

I participate in a variety of message boards on the web, and this one has some of least amount of venom expressed. Actually, that might be more of reflection of me ;)
Actually, what I find remarkable here is that people for all intents &amp; purposes been suppressed for yrs. in their thoughts/opinions/emotions have found an avenue to vent in a way in which I think is mostly constructive. Most of what I read here, I believe, is not reckless criticism--sour grapes, or bitterness--but honest viewpoints earned from years of involvement and travail in a move of God. Just as I don't criticize war vets for their opinions on foreign policy--they were there, and have a right to question--nor do I find fault in people discussing what's discussed on this board. It's important to examine the past (not 'dwell' in the past) if only so the same mistakes are not repeated in one's life. Plus--and this is a personal bonus--it keeps me occupied so I stay off more inflammatory message groups...places where your family, livilihood, even pets are threatened should you dare suggest that 'Kill Bill' was not a great movie.


Mike

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

Note: just so everyone knows, in spite of what the prior post indicates--my pets have not yet been threatened as a result of a web posting.
But I fear it could be the next step.


Mike

[been there, done that (205.188.117.20)]

XPineConeX-

I knew your mom from Shiloh--she was very nice. I remember her having a cute toddler, maybe that was you?

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

Mike, I agree that this discussion board is very benign compared to other ones I've posted on!

Its great to have an honest, candid, open discussion about all the issues. It is long overdue.

Alina, thanks for your prayers! By the way, I remember you too and your brother from San Diego/L.A./Shiloh YASP. Tell John I said hi. I liked your posts about the Trinity.

Been there, done that, I think the toddler was my sister Elizabeth, if the time was before August, 1980 when I was born. Elizabeth was born in 1978. We are very close in age and looked similar when we were young kids. I'll tell my mom someone remembered her from Shiloh. She'll appreciate that.

[Alina Hope (4.242.189.229)]

Elaine, Welcome! You asked why so many are anonymous and what they are afraid of. I think they are afraid of hurting family and friends that are still in the church. Also, they don't want to be painted as villans because they don't agree with TLWF.

I liked your post! I was blessed by JRS when I was a toddler, but I hardly remember it. G&amp;M blessed me the year before I left 5 and half years ago saying that I was a "mother of israel" and that I would bring up many sons in TLW.

Well, instead of mothering people, I hope to bring people to Jesus Christ and help them to see Him as the most important part of Christianity - after all, it is named after Him! LOL! I also hope to be the best mother I can be to my eight month old son. Other than that, we will see what GOD has for me in life. I will follow where He leads me.

God bless you, Elaine!

[Alina Hope (4.242.189.229)]

Mike, you are funny!

[XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)]

Alina, I'm sure raising an 8 month old son will be keeping you busy! Just ask Chad!

My focus now is to take the same zeal and enthusiasm I had in the Living Word Fellowship and channel it as best I can in my everyday life, in work, school, my family, and among my friends. The whole point is that I glorify Jesus Christ. At the end of my life, if I have succeeded in glorifying Jesus Christ in my life, my relationships, my career, and my family, and have had integrity, I will feel like I did the right thing.

One thing I never realized growing up is with all this talk of the Kingdom coming, I never realized how busy I would be with school, a career, and eventually a family! I can take everything I've learned to help me with these things. I would say a big reason people in our age group 18-30 eventually stop coming around is the simple fact that life happens, and we get married, have kids, start careers, continue our education, move somewhere else, etc.

John Stevens, as well as G+M, and many other people in my age group have laid hands on me and blessed me. John Stevens blessed me when I was a few months old. In fact, I still have the tape. Its pretty neat to hear myself as a baby crying in the backround.

There was alot of faith in those prayers and blessings, and wisdom in them. I have a deposit in my spirit from these experiences that I simply would not have otherwise. Therefore, it was a good thing that all of us were involved.

We are all older and wiser now, and can take from the old and the new and live our lives the best way we know how.

[Elaine Grier Eads (199.165.116.71)]

Dear People,
Yes, Jon...I remember a Libby with long wavy hair...very sweet...Thanks Alina for your response. Jon, I have all of our personal ministry tapes from R.D., and JRS and many other men of God that were in that movement. Every one I had was anointed...and has come to pass...Remember that God and His word is ALWAYS TRUE...though men may be liars...There are so many people I 'd love to hear about...Mike Freer was like a big brother to me...I spoke to he and his wife maybe 20 years ago! His Dad, Bro. Freer was refered to in the Anaheim church as the Head Deacon of the walk...Craig Gruenberg was a precious guy...very humble, a wonderful song writer and an anointed worship leader...David Kokus(Cokus?) was an anointed man of integrity from all memories...Jim Stewart...from Coniah..and so many others...Francis Frangipane, Damon Davis, SArah Statton and her Father, Dan Statton...wonderful family...John Bohlen and his family...Harold Williams, from Brazil...If anyone knows about anyone from Coniah, Anaheim, or Sepulveda, oh, and South Gate...and Shiloh...I spent 3 weeks there in the summer of 78...a wonderful time... Roomed with a girl from Yakima...we called them "Yakimaniacs"...oh, and Larry Cotton...God's word does go on in our lives. Our church separated in 1980...but many of us stayed together. We now number around 180 people and live on over 700 acres in Alaska called Whitestone Farms. It is a Christian Community...We have our own school...Pre-School through college...have many businesses together and music and worship is so important to us. We operate a State Park...Rikas Roadhouse and Landing...www.rikas.com. In the Spring, Summer and Fall we go by boat to and from our farm to our State Park. The word continues on in his people everywhere...He is truth and He watches over HIS sheep wherever they may be. I'd love to hear from you all...

[TLW (163.10.19.34)]

<CENTER>SERVICE NOTES
March 31, 1990 Saturday 7:30 PM
Shiloh, IA

HIS PLAN OR PLAN B?
**, ***, ****
</CENTER>

Summary: This Word gives us a scriptural foundation for how we, as a family, relate to a recent marriage. But more than that, it paints a panorama of the Adamic nature's workings that keep us in the cycle and in bondage to death. If we are obedient to His plan we will end that cycle. Let's end the cycle.

GARY HARGRAVE: We're very much in the prelude for the time of Passover. One of the reasons we came back here was to resolve a situation that we've been working with for a few years now, and it had to do with a relationship that we did not feel was in the mind of the Lord.

The only thing I can liken it to is a father when your child just tells you, "I'm going to go do this," and you don't like it, but they're going to do it anyway. What are you going to do? You either close the door, or somehow you find a way to keep the door open and reach into Plan B. And so far, we're heavy into Plan B. That is kind of a dangerous position, because it can be misinterpreted by the Body, because we talk about obedience and submission and walking before the Lord with a Word. And I don't want you to take it any other way than the way we're saying it.

You see, there's no question in my mind, Plan B is not the perfect will of the Lord. It is some other level in God where you have to go out and try to find and come into the will of the Lord again. But you should understand that our whole existence now is Plan B.

You see, God never planned for Adam and Eve to eat the apple, and He never planned for creation to come under futility, or for our Adamic nature to be the controlling force in our life. That was <U>not</U> the plan. Do you think that the track we're on was the mind of the Lord when everything started out in the Garden? See, Christ is Plan B. Christ's appearance on the earth is God interjecting a power, a force, to try to bring us out of Plan B back into His will.

Now hopefully you don't understand that principle and then rely on it as a life-style. Because there's grace, does that mean we sin? No, God forbid, that's not the point. You're missing the whole idea if you think grace is just an open door to go do whatever you want to do, and then you can always come back through Christ. It doesn't work that way. Where that cut-off point is, where you become an Esau, I don't know. When is it that you push the grace of God to the point where there's no longer a way back through the door of grace? I don't know.

We are not going to hold back any of our thoughts or feelings; we're certainly not going to hold it back from you, and I trust that we have been faithful to that since John's death, that there are not things that go on in the background that are not immediately brought out here, and the whole family's a part of that. The worst thing to me would be for us to lose your confidence and trust.

The love that we have for each other, and the confidence and the trust that we place in one another as we walk in the Lord is probably the greatest trust that God has given us. I want us to start understanding what this thing is all about, especially when we're talking about this whole revelation of breaking the cycle. When you perpetuate the cycle, you perpetuate death. I don't think we need any more punishment than that. You say, "We walk under this fear that if we do something wrong, then God's going to do this over here." But my question is, "Does anybody care that we're just keeping the cycle going?"

Do we understand that we live in Plan B? Do you understand that there are probably areas every day where you make your own decisions on what you want to do and how you want to do it? There have been situations before in the Body, where we say, "Okay, go out, get married, come in, we bless you, we love you. Don't make this a stumbling block." Why? Because we're hoping that at some point the Lord's going to get your spirit. At some point you're going to open up. Probably all of you have been through some situation like that.

But here's what grabs me. The Adamic nature always leads to disobedience which leads to death, and we keep the cycle going. The only way we'll ever break the cycle is when we put our foot down and say, "No, I'm going to bring myself into subjection to His Lordship." That's not an easy thing to do, but somehow I wish we could start really seeing this thing and fighting it. I wish we could get into a real revelation of ending the cycle and this Adamic nature, and where it takes us to, because we are living every day with the results of what's going on in our spirit with this thing.

It would be good for you to read all of I Corinthians 9, because this is the apostolic chapter of one of the greatest explanations in Paul's own spirit about what apostleship is. READ I CORINTIHIANS 9:1-2. The apostleship relationship is not between Marilyn and myself and any one of these men. That's not where it lies. It lies between that man and Christ Jesus and the seal of that apostleship. And maybe we've never understood that, but that's the truth.

READ I CORINTHIANS 9:24-27. We lose sight of the fact that an apostle is to be one who is fighting through to end the flesh nature just like we are. We have seen several cases this year where there's been a tremendous stumbling in the apostolic ministry. Maybe it surprises you, but it doesn't surprise me. As long as that nature is there we're not pleasing to the Lord. I know you don't keep that as a conscious thought, but as long as the nature exists, you're displeasing to the Lord. So how do you walk with God then? Have you ever wondered that? I certainly do, all the time. John said, "Don't discipline the old nature. You cannot discipline the flesh." You say, "Well then, can the flesh go do anything it wants to?" No, because if you have this commission, you are not going to touch the people wrong.

Probably the greatest percentage of time that Marilyn and I spend is in monitoring the flesh nature that is emanating from an individual who's commissioned. You know how in a nuclear plant they have these guys that walk around with these meters, and at some point if there's too much radiation, they close the area down. They say, "There's an acceptable level here, and there's an unacceptable level." When you hit an unacceptable level, you've got to do something about it. That's what we do. We walk around kind of with a "fleshometer" (LAUGHTER) in the spirit, and try to continually monitor what level is coming through because everything that a ministry does is going to affect the people.

Paul said, "I buffet my body and I make it my slave, lest possibly after I have preached to others I myself should be disqualified." Paul would take his Adamic nature and bring it in subjection to the blood of the Lamb, and to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. This is the way we must walk as a people. When it comes to that nature, we don't discipline it. We don't hide it. We don't pretend it's not there, but you'd better subject it under the blood of Christ and under His Lordship until it is gone. Isn't that what Christ is? He is the provision for Plan B, isn't He? Paul made sure that his nature did not become a stumbling block, either to himself or to those who were the seal of his apostleship. This isn't some carte blanche thing that turns you loose to sin. It's supposed to be the process by which we get out of sin.

Paul said, "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle?" Then in Galations he said, "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another" (Galations 5:13). There should be a drive in every one of us that says, "My God, through love I've got to serve You. And the freedom that I have in my spirit is not going to be used by me as an opportunity to do what I want to or to turn the flesh loose."

Maybe your understanding is too tied up with this idea of crime and punishment. You come into this and you find, "There's a lot of latitude in God. I didn't think I could do this and I kind of snuck out one time and did it and fire didn't fall out of heaven and kill me." But that's no big surprise. You could probably go commit any sin, and fire wouldn't fall out of heaven on you. You say, "Well it's always been that fire coming down and this swift retribution that has scared me into being a good Christian." Then you're not a good Christian at all. You're certainly not walking in a relationship with Him, because perfect love casts out fear. Maybe it's good for a time when you're a little child and something's trying to train you. But at some point you get out of that obedience by fear, and it becomes an obedience from the heart.

In the Garden of Eden, the devil came and said, "Did God tell you that if you do this, you'll die?" Eve said, "Yeah." And he said, "That's not true. If you do this you won't die." And what happened? She did it and did they die? Well, no--well, yes. (LAUGHTER) Do you see? She should have been a little bit more inquisitive. "What do you mean by 'die'? When you say I won't die, tell me what you mean." Did fire come out of heaven and consume her? No, neither Adam or Eve died. They were both there when the Lord came and walked in the garden in the cool of the evening. But did they die? Yeah, they did.

I have to figure out if I'm goal-oriented or not. Do I live my life for immediate satisfaction, or am I looking for something that I'm willing to give myself for? Paul said, "All things are lawful, but not everything is profitable." There are ramifications every time I make a choice as to the will of God in my life. Paul became a very controlled person; he said, "I buffet my body daily." Daily he brought himself in subjection so that that nature was not turned loose. Every time that Adamic nature is exercised in disobedience to the will of the Lord, we've committed ourselves to another lap around the mountain. We've promoted the cycle. Okay, maybe lightning didn't come out of the sky, but just like Adam and Eve, you died. It has the kiss of death with it.

The Kingdom is relationships. He's looking for a relationship with you, and He's not satisfied if your relationship is based on some fear that He'll wipe you out when you do something wrong. He wants those who are obedient from their heart, like Paul, who brought his old nature into subjection constantly. In Phillipians he said, "I press on to the mark, to the goal of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." He was looking for resurrection life and the freedom from that Adamic nature. As long as it's there, death is still operational. There are ramifications to everything, just as there were for Adam and Eve. Imagine having the Tree of Life guarded so you couldn't enter into life. They had to struggle to get into resurrection life, where before God was training them into it. He was giving it to them like children, day by day, as He walked them in the garden. Instead, the earth came under futility, and everything was produced by the sweat of your brow. Childbearing was a labor, a pain. In your disobedience everything changes, and yet the one thing you were afraid of didn't look like it happened. There are so many ramifications in your life. It's awesome.

READ MALACHI 3:13-15. It seems like you can do anything you want to, and nothing bad happens. So everybody was saying, "It's vain to serve God. What's the good of all of this, when I look around and I see the prosperity of the wicked?" READ MALACHI 3:16-18. We're getting ready to see the days when people walk with God, not because of some doctrine that hangs over our head like a club waiting to be dropped on us. There will be those who fear Him because they esteem His name. Out of their hearts they would never be disobedient to the Lord.

There are probably a lot of Plan B's in motion. One thing I don't see us doing: I don't want to call Plan B Plan A. I think that would be hypocritical. But somehow I want to open a door for everybody, for all of us, that there's a way out of Plan B into Plan A.

"Well, the apostolic ministry doesn't look too alive and well right now." Yeah, it does. It looks like a bunch of guys going through the cross of Christ and having their soul-flesh dealt with. Are we giving up? No, we're still majorly shepherding these guys. I can take someone and say, "Let's treat you as a sheep and you can get over those problems just like everyone else can. But if you're to be a ministry, you'll have to have your old nature in subjection because it is not going to come through and start affecting people's spirits."

But on the other hand I don't want to start slamming doors on people just because the flesh is there. I knew it was there when I laid hands on them, and I expected it to be dealt with. If anyone doubt the ministry of laying on of hands, would you like to try for apostleship? I thank God that we still have the dealings of God in the earth after John's death. That is a great comfort to me.

Are you going to give yourself to the Lord and be obedient? You can't answer that question until you're really challenged on something you want versus something the Lord wants. <U>Everybody's</U> Plan B simply hangs a right and goes around the mountain again. And you come back to the same intersection between Plan A and Plan B that you first were standing at. Isn't that the Passover principle? It's either eleven days' journey, or it's forty years through the wilderness. But somebody's going to come back to that beginning spot where God met you at the mountain and gave you the decision to make. It happens in your life every day.

Can we start choosing Plan A and stop promoting Plan B? Let's stop going around the mountain. Let's reach in to an obedience to the Lord. If someone is in Plan B right now, don't beam unbelief toward them. I have faith for them--and I have faith for you too. I love you guys. I always want to tell you how I'm thinking. I don't know how to get across to you that none of this to me is negative. It is to be expected because we are breaking the cycle, aren't we?

I love what's happening here. The family really is coming together and having fun. Do you love the living room? (BODY: Yes.) I love the living room, too, and we have to keep the living room pure. We can't let our disobedience or our old nature come in and ruin things. We're going to be very careful not to let that happen. Don't you think?

COPYRIGHT 1990 BY THE LIVING WORD, A CALIFORNIA NONPROFIT CORPORATION.
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION IN WHOLE OR IN PART IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION.

[Penny Kaehler Alford (66.90.250.81)]

Dear Elaine-
I loved your Posts - so full of grace and love. I was in the Houston Church - our Pastor Rod Fink was originally from San Diego. I am no longer in the Walk as is true of most of the Houston church and we have all gone our different ways (around 1983-84) but still keep in touch from time to time. While there were many things that did disturb me (all the things that surrounded the marriage of Gary and marilyn while we were still praying for John's ressurection - if he did come back, who would Marilyn be married to?) I learned so much. We were isolated from a lot of things that happened back then, but we had been taught to read the word, pray, wait on the Lord, discipline, being a family - and I still believe these things with all my heart. I am thankful for every step of the path I have taken, both good and bad (What Satan meant for bad, God has used for his glory) so I have had life lessons along the way, and being in the Walk was a part of that. I have found my way back to the Lord after being in the wilderness for awhile, and God is indeed a God of restoration.
Recently the Houston Church had a reunion. It was truely amazing to remember how much we really loved each other then and now. We had a picnic where we laughed at our memories, shared pictures,
and prayed for each other. the next evening we had a dinner at a restaurant where we continued sharing, and as I looked around I realized that God really did put these people in my life for a season, and forged a bond that is forever, and even though we are not in the Walk any longer, we are still brothers and sisters - and for that I will always be thankful to the Walk. Not all of us ex's are bitter. Many of us really are thankful for all that God has done then and now.

[Anonymous (67.126.182.208)]

I was also in the Walk, from about '74 - 84, then in and out for about another 6 years or so, as I had a sister in the walk also. Her and her husband just left about a year ago. She's turning 50 now, and started going before they were married when she was 18. It has really been an ordeal for her. But I am grateful for a lot of the things I learned in the Walk. John, if nothing else, instilled in me, a desire to really want a "walk" with our Lord Jesus. To be hungry after His word, I learned to worship Him, trust and have faith in Him, and much more that I wouldn't have learned if I remained in the Lutheran church. I was primarily in the "Newport" Church. I guess we were some real rebels, even within the church! LOL My husband died while we were in the church, and John was so kind, gracious, loving, and helpful to me. I had a really hard time with his death, and I think I was pretty messed up at that time. But John was never critical or made me feel like he was condeming me when I made bad judgement calls. But today, I am married to a Pentecostal preacher. I have learned another way of working for the Lord. A kinder, gentler, more loving way. I pray that everyone will be able to come out of the "walk" or whatever it's called these days, and find the true joy of our Lord Jesus. He is with us always, and in these last days, we are going to need Him more and more.
God Bless

[Edward Kovach (68.23.217.170)]

HI,

I attended a LWF church in Columbiana, Oh as a visitor from time to time between 1973 and 1975. I would be interested if anyone knows what happened to this church and its members. I'm particularly interested in the family that I would attend with.

If anyone used to attend this church or has information on it, please email me personally at egk47@hotmail.com

Thanks!

Ed

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

I think there's around 10 message boards dealing with the same group of people. If I am correct they are: John Robert Stevens, Church of the Living Word, Shiloh Kalona Iowa Cult, The Living Word Fellowship, The Living Word Church Online Gathering, Religious Fanaticism has Complicated a Father-Son Relationship--Need Advice; The Walk: Talking Points, Harvey Bender's Place, Punch Him in the Eye Fellowship, Alcoholic Christ in the Flesh.
O.K.--I made the last few up. But since these boards pretty much deal with some of the same issues, wouldn't it be nice if they were consolidated a bit? Or have I been tainted by denominational thinking?

[analonamous (67.115.10.173)]

i vote for mike the lamp from ikea to be the apostle to the chat room. we need a king. a leader to make important decisions. i believe he is called of god and will lead the lords people with integrity and frivolity. i would also like to nominate the lamp for some type of award for best chat room humour. keep it up mj. you are tops.

[analonamous (67.115.10.173)]

p.s. mike i think your first order of business should be banning the word clut from our chat living room. it is offensive and uncalled for. thank you, "the no more clut word movement"

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

If I be lifted up, then I quit.

Mike 3:16


I do better with hostility and pure venom.
Please--no adulation. Bring it on.

[analonamous (67.115.10.173)]

no running and leaping chest bumps ?

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

GreyFox:
"Mike: Why did you leave? Was is because the McMullens blew in?"

At the time, I thought that was part of the reason. But the McMullens were genuine people, busting their asses to be submssive to Gary and Marilyn. They meant no harm. In retrospect, my problem was with the whole shepherding system in place at TLWF--which I found ultimately exploitative. I just had a visceral distaste for people being used in the name of God--and couldn't in good conscience support it any longer. I had already invested 22 yrs. of my life, and I figured that was enough.


Mike Jones

[GreyFox (198.81.26.106)]

Mike: Well, you have been around awhile, 1974 - 1996. I'm disappointed another cherished prophet left. But I'm starting to understand how hard it must have been for you. Sitting under the word, becoming the word, it's very hard to deviate from it. All I can say, I'm praying that God will turn everything around for his perfect will for all of you guys and us. I don't mean to rejoin TLWF necessarily. Just wherever He leads you.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

GreyFox,
Thanks for the encouraging words and prayers. I was in the thick of things from 1969-2000. I'd say that's long enough to give TLWF a fair shake. I don't think it was a waste of time by any stretch. I learned many valuable lessons in TLWF and in spite of how my posts may appear, John is one of the men of God I respect most. I just don't think everything he said was a word from God, comparable with the scriptures. My opinion is not compatible with remaining in TLWF. For me, the scriptures are the final authority in areas I feel there are discrepencies.

I realize those in TLWF don't feel there are any descrepencies just like many other groups feel about their doctrines. The Jehovah's Witness think the kingdom started back in the early 1900's. TLWF thinks it was 1979. I happen to think Christ was the door opener - not John. One thing for sure, we're past all those dates, we have much work to do and we're not getting any younger.

One of the things I'm learning now is the areas in my life where there were holes left in the foundation after my time in TLWF. As they are corrected, I'm finding much more balance and stability. We really need all the parts of the Body to be made whole and complete. That doesn't discredit that particular part in their function, it just means God doesn't give all the pieces to one group where they can say I have no need of the rest of the Body.

I remember John voicing his concern about the foundation of many of those who did not have a background like the first generation did. Someone was going to have to go back and add it or there would be trouble down the road. That has been my personal experience. The defensive stance that TLWF has no need and has all the answers just keeps it from happening.

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

to help clear up some confusion on these boards, here's some frequently used acronyms:

TLWF: the Living Word fellowship
DR: designated relationship
CITF: Christ in the flesh
ACITF: alcoholic Christ in the flesh (requires
same submission)
BAW: bitter and withdrawn (condition many who
left TLWF are allegedly in)
LL: lower level (refers to those who did not
choose plan A, but opted for B or C)
SAP: steak and sprouts (a diet advocated by
some on the outskirts of the camp as an
intermediate step to going all vegan)
GBIJL: gold bars in John's luggage

[Bill (4.11.192.39)]

Larry,

I have a question for you, if you don't mind. I was wondering when you think, you became aware of discrepencies in John's word. Was it before you left or was it after.

Thanks

[Bill (4.11.192.39)]

Mike,

No wonder I'm confused I thought.

SAP- steak and potatoes
BILL- been in lower level
DR- don't read
ACITF- alcohol can increase the fun

I had to quit, my brains working to hard. I'll just leave the humor to you.

[GreyFox (198.81.26.106)]

Larry: 31 years! Another valuable prophet gone. I apologize for being an ass to you in my earlier posts. The holes I think you are referring to were misinterpretations. The marriage fiasco-for sure. It's funny. The people who should have listened, didn't (alot were the older generation). As far as I know, they're still married to those "ball-breakers". Don't take offense, I know who they are, but I doubt many people would know them.

You are right about the first generation. Also, I'm glad you're doing better, and I know God will continue to lead you in all that he has for you.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Bill,
I felt there were discrepencies before I left TLWF. For example, I wrote a letter to the C. Springs Shepherds dated 1-9-94 which was also forwarded to Apco. In that letter I expressed my concerns about parallels with Mormon church, the kingdom dawning in 1979, John bringing down satan with his death, commissioning of false shepherds, personal words from God, secrecy about teachings, sectarianism, divorce/adultery etc. There were 21 items in all.

I never really resolved any of these issues - surprising for an elder huh? A deeper revelation was supposed to clear things up but it only made me more concerned that there were areas that needed to be corrected. The only response I received back was at the time I divorced my wife - "If divorce is such a problem for you, why are you divorcing?" Granted, I probably deserved to hear that but it didn't answer any of the other questions or help me solve any of the problems that led to my divorce. Officially, working to correct problems was encouraged and admittedly there were areas that needed to change. Unofficially, if you disagreed, you were out the door because you can't argue with "God".

[Bill (4.11.192.39)]

Larry,

Don't quote me on this, but if my memory is correct, I believe John latter said it was just another phase of the kingdom in 79. I'll try and find it. Secrecy about teachings. I'll use a personal example- You know the abuses that are going on in Iraq. Well they are happening in the old prison where torture happened all the time. I believe there is still spirits that are in that prison. I'm not trying to justify what's going on there, but if I told this to most people, they would think I'm nuts. Divorce, I would agree in most cases, that it is wrong. The unequally yoked together got blown way out of proportion. Hell, if that was the case, my wife could have left me along time ago. I believe John's case was a whole lot different. Adultry, there is no excuse for that, not throwing stones at anyone, but it is still wrong. Sectarianism, they seem to be getting out of that, but I'll admit as I have before, I'm not into outreach myself, but don't condemn anyone who is. John bringing down satan, I don't have a clue, but I'm not going to say it's wrong. Commissioning of false shepards, Jesus did that, even God did. They might not have been at the time, just latter on. Mormon church, you will have to give me some examples, because I don't know anything about the Mormons. Personal words from God, I don't think anything is wrong with that, as long as you have true confimation.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Bill,
I would be curious to know the specifics of what John saw would be happening in 1979 when the Lord took him ahead in the spirit 7 years in 1972. The scriptural requirement for it being a word from God is that it comes to pass (Deut. 18:21,22). I seem to recall many references in the This Week bound volumes of coming destruction within a certain time frame (say within the next decade) that also did not come to pass. Remember all the survival preparation in the 1970's? I gave my LW stuff to my ex or I could be a little more specific.

As far as John taking down satan, I think it is a potentially dangerous stance to assume everything thing you are being taught is correct, without confirmation in the scriptures or any evidence of fruit. To say something is true just because G&amp;M say it is true, really opens the door for unnecessary doctrinal error. I'm not pointing out this area to be petty - it was a significant part of John's ministry and in the history of all humanity, if actually true. I think we both know how the rest of christianity would respond to this teaching. I'm not saying that to be critical but to point out the safety that could be provided by other christians if TLWF would be willing to listen.

I don't think Jesus made a mistake when he commissioned Judas. He knew what Judas was going to do beforehand - in fact, it was a fulfillment of scripture. In my opinion, I do not think John knew what was in the heart of many of the false shepherds that he commissioned in the 1970's that caused such problems. Let me rephrase that. Would you commission a child molester if you felt God was leading you to do so? A healthy handling of the scriptures would cause you to question your leading because it violates God's other commandments. He is looking out for His people's good, not trying to be hurtful. His genuine dealings bring life and leave you thankful for His intervention in your life, not lost and confused as can happen following another human's direction.

One big change in my thinking I experienced after moving on out of TLWF is that God is absolutely perfect - He makes no mistakes. His word is something you can place your life on and His answers exceed your expectations. Like the song, "Not what I see, but that which Thou has spoken O Lord", I was constantly having to re-adjust my thinking to God speaking a word but not being able to see any evidence of fulfillment - and that being okay.

Living in a constant state of disillusionment in God's lack of willingness to perform His word is a tough row to hoe. After decades of intense intercession with little results, it has been so refreshing to hear His voice for myself and watching Him do what He said He would do. This type of confirmation is priceless and strengthens one's relationship with the Lord. I had to re-learn trusting the Lord to get rid of the cynicism in my spirit born of asking for bread and receiving a stone. I know many believers have died in faith, not receiving what was promised. I also know it's important to make sure it really is a word from God - if it's not, that may be why it is not happening too.

As far as the parallels between the Mormons and TLWF: The goal of sonshiip and perfection, overcoming death, apostles and prophets, a living word from living oracles, the need for further revelation to move into higher spiritual levels, total obedience to human authority, impartation through the laying on of hands, personal minisry about the future, receiving teaching from departed saints (e.g. Elijah), functioning with the cloud of witnesses, breaking of family ties to become God's family, breakup of marriages over an unequal yoke, superior view towards other christians because of their apostasy, living on an emotional rollercoaster of elation or depression based on the latest living word, a sense of possessing the only true word, spiritual visions and visitations, spiritual manifestations e.g. auras, glory clouds, angels etc., deeper truths not available to new comers, and keeping members so busy they don't have time to think for themselves - to name a few.

[Exwalkite (209.86.142.218)]

Has anyone else wondered what sort of underware Hare Krishnas wear? My vote is boxers, both the men and the women.

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

Hi Everyone,

First off, I’d like to say how much I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading all of your posts. Not only are they very interesting (and somewhat entertaining), they have helped me realize that other people have gone through the same process of questioning/searching/thinking that I’ve gone through and it has been refreshing and reassuring. I want to say thank you to everyone who has posted.

I’ve been thinking a lot and have come to the conclusion that although posting and reading on this website has been therapeutic and healing to all of us, perhaps it is not the best forum for discussing the topics that are being discussed. The reason I think this is because the other day I re-read every one of my posts, and realized that some bitterness, anger, and attack was coming through in some of them. It was good for me to vent, and has made me feel more healed than ever from past wounds, but me pointing out perceived problems or shortcomings in the church on the world wide web really does nothing for me, because I already know how I feel about them, and its not helping the Living Word Fellowship which has been making a concerted and sincere effort to reach out into the Christian community over the last several years. I would not want something I say to hinder in the slightest bit that progress.

Secondly, I realized that the source of a lot of my generalized anger came from one sheparding experience that I perceived as bad, but someone else may have perceived to be good for me. There were other variables in my situation aside from the sheparding that I had not considered previously. I realized that for me to take this one perceived bad experience out of my ten years of very positive experiences in the Living Word Fellowship and use it to make a critique really isn’t doing myself or the Living Word Fellowship justice.

Third, I’ve realized that I really don’t have a place to criticize anything about the LWF unless I am a part of a local church. Until then, I am like one of those people who always moan and groan about politics but never register to vote in elections or become involved in a part of the solution to what they perceive to be problems.

Therefore, I will not criticize anything about the church anymore on this board, as long as I currently attend another church outside of the Fellowship and live away from the churches. I’ve been thinking about the scripture “if any man has a problem with his neighbor, he needs to go to the neighbor in private and resolve the problem”. I think simple, honest, candid, bold communication between parties will go a long way in resolving issues that arise in the churches, rather than me or anyone else sounding off on the world wide web.

I would not be who I am today if it were not for the close relationships I developed, the mentoring (sheparding) I had, the worship I experienced, the training and teaching in the scriptures, and the discipline I acquired while being a part of the Living Word Fellowship. I am a much better person for it. I take pride in that fact. And the fruit of my own life today is testament to how my experience in TLWF planted many seeds that are now bearing fruit. The fruit being the fulfillment of words I had had spoken over me, and my ability to bless and minister to many different people in many ways, and my knowledge of the scriptures. Alot of it came from impartation by people in the LWF.

The Living Word Fellowship has a uniqueness that I have not appreciated among any other Christian fellowship in my many years of trying different churches and fellowshipping with other Christians. I am proud of my unique heritage in this movement.

The Body of Christ needs what the Living Word Fellowship has. I am cognizant of the fact that there has been a lot of water under the bridge, but today is a new day. I think the leadership is more open than ever to new ideas and lines of communication with the rest of the Church.

All Christians need each other in this world. I think those currently in and out of the LWF are really all on the same side. We are all trying to walk with God. The world needs the love and faith of all of us, working together, not against each other. And my family and I need all of your prayer and support as well.

To all members of the Living Word Fellowship, past and present, involved and not involved, who know me and my family and have been reading my posts, I love you guys a lot! I really do. And if we don’t know each other, I hope to meet you sometime. I hope you and your families are doing great. You guys are on my heart all the time. I pray for you and think about you every day. I look forward to seeing and talking to you all in the future. I’m sorry if any of my critical comments offended anybody, I am just trying to express myself somewhat imperfectly. Even if you disagree, you have to admit the posts are very interesting to read, and they make good points! (e.g., you had to read them all to finally get to this one!) Perhaps things were said that needed to be said somehow, some way, and this is where they found their place.

I would like to apologize for using specific people’s names in my posts without their prior consent, although my doing so demonstrated how much respect I have for all of you. In the future I will not do that, since everyone has a right to privacy that we should respect.

No one has any control over what is posted on this discussion board, and I respect what everyone has to say, good or bad, as long as we do it in a respectful manner. I hope to lead by example by doing this.

By the way: I was contacted by some friends in the LWF about my posting on this board, and it was more of an inquiry as to how I was doing, and a suggestion that I should pray about it, than a suggestion to stop. So, this post was constructed as an independent thought by me as a result of thinking about it and praying about it for about a week, in case anyone was wondering. i.e. no pressure was put on me to stop posting critiques, it is a decision I came to independently after a week of thinking about.

Also, I know that if you go back and read all of my posts, it might seem as if I am doing a 180 in my attitude towards the LWF with this post. I am! I realize that we are all Christians, on the same side, who need each others love and support. The focus should not be quibbling about doctrine (everyone knows my opinions on that ad naseum!). The focus should be on glorifying Jesus Christ together and being a support to one another. We agree on that always.

It has been terrific to be contacted via email from friends in the LWF that have read these threads. If anyone ever wants to talk about anything, just send me an email. I like hearing from you and appreciate your feedback as well. Plus, I want to know what everyone is up to these days!

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

Hey Jon:

I've appreciated your posts since (I believe) they were born out of a desire for understanding--expressing your thought processes--and not simply to vent bitterness or cause ill will to those you've known &amp; loved. You don't impress me as someone looking to cause trouble. Nonetheless, I wish you the best. BTW, should you be in need of an irrelevant, inappropriate joke or two feel free to contact me by email. I'll see what I can muster up.


Mike

[Bill (4.11.193.228)]

Larry,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. First I want to say that the words over you as an elder I believe are true. I would have to have a face to face talk with God to commission a child molester. Do you really believe John would do that. I don't.

You are right. God doesn't make mistakes, but sometimes it sure looks like it. Jesus did know that Judas was going to betray Him, but you don't know if he knew he would be the one, at the very beginning. God picked Saul to be Israels king, but he messed up later on. Now who do you blame God or Saul? Saul of course. I would like to point out something about Saul. Do you think Saul might have turned out ok, if the people would have prayed for Him, instead of saying Saul has killed his thousand and David his ten thousand. Just a thought.

THIS WEEK: Putting It All Together: 9/24/82

The Kingdom of God is coming forth in the realm of spirit, like the Kingdom of God came forth in the Old Testament in the realm of the physical.

I'm speaking now. I believe the fruit is apparent in the word brought after 1979. I still have 5 half barrels of wheat in my garage. I was going to throw it out a few years ago, but decided not to. I bet its some of the few grains of wheat left, that's not genetically engineered.

Same THIS WEEK as above.

For many will come in My name , saying I am the Christ, and will mislead many. Matt. 24:5. A person would be a fool to say, " I am Jesus Christ on earth"; but people do come and say, "I possess you and take position over you. I woo you to myself." They are saying,in effect, " I am your Christ."

I never said, I believed John took down satan. I've never told anyone that statement in or out of TLWF. I just said I had no revelation about it and I wasn't going to say it wasn't so. I trully don't know, and if I said yes he did, or no he didn't, I would be making a judgement. And I'm not prepared to do so.

This word came 9/11/82:

We're coming into the realm of the Kingdom where there is a relationship to the Father. And that's why you're hearing about the family; you're hearing about me. "John, you're our father."
Yes, I'm your father but I'm not your Father. It's the Spirit of the Lord in me that is fathering you, to teach you the Father, and to bring you to the Father. Everything has to end there. Christ will reign until His enemies are a footstool and then He delivers it all up to the Father. Everything goes back to the Father. That's what this is all about. You have one Father, and that's God.

I know when I hadn't read the This Weeks, I felt no other group had a walk with God. I always looked at the ministries, and thought, whats wrong with me. I used to be critical of people that left the church, for what ever reason. They were just blow outs. I don't think that way anymore.

Now if you want me to not believe the Living Word,
that's not going to happen. If people have a problem with the Living Word that's ok. The problem I have is when someone tries to convince me I'm wrong. Not saying that's what your trying to do.

Take Care.

[Bill (4.11.193.228)]

Larry,

I misquoted about Jesus, maybe not knowing who was going to betray him. John 6:64. Sorry about that.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

Hi Bill,
Sorry - I've been out of town or I would have responded to your post sooner. Thanks for the words of faith about being an elder. I'm involved with the leadership in several arenas but not as an elder. If you are willing to work, others are willing to let you.

Regarding child molesters, I don't think John (or anyone else in TLWF for that matter) would knowingly ordain one - as has apparently happened in the Catholic church. I don't believe God would ordain one either. My point is that I don't think it was really God doing the directing. I'm not nearly as quick to profess infallibility in the leadership as you are. I know you'll admit mistakes have been made but apparently not mistakes in following the leading of the Lord. That's where we differ.

I don't feel Saul was God's first choice for Israel. 1 Samuel 8 talks about Israel rejecting God as king and demanding a king like all the other nations. God warned them through Samuel of the problems ahead but they would not listen. Many of the personal problems I've faced would not have happened if I had not made another human king. That's not the leaders fault, it's mine. I just would not do it again because I feel it's against God's first choice for me like it was not His first choice for Israel. I don't think He wants to give up His rightful place in our lives as Lord to a human.

I also do not think God is just now bringing forth His kingdom in the spirit realm. I think it's already there. It needs to be manifest in the physical realm. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is (not going to be when John opens the door) in heaven." Learning to live in the realm of spirit is where I think the openness to the occult has occured in TLWF causing many to live in unnecessary spiritual warfare and oppression. That is why I keep suggesting you check out your resurrected body you've received as a result of following this teaching. Don't be afraid to check out the fruit.

Many have followed the teaching of "ascended masters" and thinking that they are now going to live for hundreds of years with special powers. The only problem is they don't. They die like every one else without truely impacting the world. All they really had was a "revelation" going on in their brains. More often than not, the character issues in their lives are in shambles. This could have been corrected following Jesus teaching instead of being lost in space, confusing a metaphysical experience with a nature change.

I've posted several times already what I think about christ in the flesh and taking that position for another. It's not scriptural and the evidence is in the fruit.

I'm not saying you said John took Satan down - that's just the teaching of TLWF. I felt just the way you do about it when I was in the Walk - I honestly didn't know one way or another and really didn't care enough to make it an issue. It would be a huge deal if it were true. Now that my revelation bubble has burst, it seems very foolish to me - not to mention unscriptural.

Just as you would take offense at others attacking TLW, I find it equally offensive for Gary to make commentaries on the rest of the body that honestly are not true. The last year I listened to LW tapes, there was a constant comparison of the Walk to the rest of christianity. If God is really doing a unique work in the Walk, why should there be any need to compare with a criticize others? It didn't bother me when all I had for a reference point was what I saw on TV. Once I established other relationships and found out what he was saying was simply not true, it was another story. I now think it is just a control tactic to keep those in TLWF fellowship from connecting with other christians and becoming free.

Take care.

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

So I just found this site this morning and have pretty much shirked all actual responsibility to spend the better part of the day reading posts. Many of you have many interesting points... about the good and the bad.

I was raised in the Living Word Fellowship. As fully as anybody could be. Kingdom school. Valley church. YASP. All that stuff that really should have turned out one heck of a future shepherd. Or whatever. But instead I realized that the career that I had "WORD" to pursue, as dictated by APCO, would have driven me to insanity. I'd have to say my decision to pursue something that was personally meaningful (and my desire to date people NOT in the church) began my real slide toward "blowing out."

Of course I didn't ever "blow out." I just sort of quit showing up. There are a lot of really good people there who really want to do the right thing, and many of them are still on my list of favorite human beings. There are a few bad apples whose heads are swollen with power. And then there are the other 95% of people who are essentially good but, as many people have pointed out, are entirely afraid of what thinking for themselves might entail. So they submit, because it's easier to just do what you're told 24/7.

I really try hard not to be too cynical. I got a lot of really good stuff out of the Living Word, and (more importantly in my opinion) out of relationships that I had with a lot of wonderful people. But I can't help but feel certain anger, pain, etc, when I realize that I haven't been part of the church for like 6 or 7 years and I'm STILL undoing psychological damage that was perpetrated on me by people who really probably thought they were helping me "keep my spirit in my shoes." (Remember that one, Chad????)

I'm not going to argue whether or not this movement is a cult (that's been pretty effectively done already), but I do have many experiences to relate, some good, some bad. I find that sometimes having the opportunity to chat with others who came from similar sets of experiences can be really healing. It's like stuff constantly comes up that I need to deal with, and occasionally somebody like Chad or Larry will put something in a way that identifies a mode of thinking or whatever in a way that I hadn't yet. And that makes it clearer and easier to deal with.

It's also cool to see a few people on here that I know, but since you "blew out" I'd never be able to find anybody who could track you down (or that would be willing to give up your info). I probably know most of you, actually. I was around for a LOOOONG time, and I spent time at quite a few of the churches.

Anyways, my non-walk wife would like some of my attention before today's over, so I'll wrap this up. I look forward to posting some thoughts, and hopefully something I have to say someday will do somebody else some good.

Take care.

Captain Monkey Puzzle
monkeypuzzle28@yahoo.com

PS - I'd love to chat privately with anybody, but if you plan to email me, it might be a while before I tell you who I am. Unfortunately I do think that there are some LWF psychos out there. And if nothing else, my extended family is still VERY involved and I'd hate to become a source of their embaressment in the "family" (or the object of any **shudder** prayer for my wayward thoughts).

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

One more thought.

Mike, you're still funny as hell. (that is to say I knew you once upon a time and you were funny then, as well).

CMP
(Captain Monkey Puzzle)

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

XPineConeX, my good friend, i dont know if you will remember me or not, but i had heard from someone that you had posted somethings on this site, and i thought i would say hello, i choose not to disclose my name, and its been along long time since you and i have spoke, but im glad to hear you are still ALIVE and doing well !!!! I send my love to you!! ( i hate to leave you in the dark about who i am but im sure you understand )

well my thoughts about this site are very spread out, I do feel the need to defend, just as most of you feel the need to "vent" about your mis-haps that you have experianced...iam not going to pretend ( in my opinion ONLY) that our "church" has been perfect, but who is? we are all human, and humans make mistakes...churches make mistakes just as every "church" does, but this is our "walk" with GOD. Who are you to Judge it? it says plain as day in the Bible..."Judge not, less you be judged your self.."..( something along those lines ) but I dont believe that "Our Walk" is what is best for everyone...I know G&amp;M dont feel that way, otherwise they wouldnt be out there meeting other "Men/Women" of GOD, which they have been doing. You may think that they are in it for the money, but come on, you know as well as I do that they want the Will of the Lord to be done. I think thats why its the "Living Word" because we live in a age that is completely differnt then "Bible Times" God is moving in a differnt way now because we live in a differnt age, I ask this...how do you know that GOD isnt revealing himself to G&amp;M? ..Hes revealing Himself to many people, more so then you know!

Just because some bad things have happend doesnt mean its all wrong, if it were Im sure GOD would have put a stop to it. Im sure G&amp;M would never want to hurt anyone, and if you were hurt, are you sure its not you that might have caused it?...I'll bet in some cases you may have done something you shouldnt have and you became bitter cause of the reactions???

As far as the "Sheparding" thing goes it does say in the Bible that GOD will come again in his "Many membered body" and I also believe GOD really knows my heart and my love for him, and if my shepard tells me something and even if its wrong, the Lord knows that Im doing it cause of my love for Him and thats the only reason I do it, and if its a control thing well, We can still go to someone else to confirm it and check the relationship, and I know that GOD will take care of me.

I take special care of "My Church" ( I call it my church cause it is, this is my walk with GOD ). I apologize for anyone who has truly been hurt, but give it to the Lord and he will see fit to deal with it.

I really feel ashamed at the slander that goes on, on this message board. If you really a person of GOD, then you take it to the source and let it go, I cant believe as Christian as you people say you are that you would act this way..you say its a warning?? i think its just plain bitterness, ever stop to think it may happened for a reason? Maybe GOD need you some place else? Maybe GOD pulled you out to put you some place else, did you ever think of that? Maybe instead of dwelling on the past, try looking to the future and what GOD has instore for you........I will leave you to that...

[XPineConeX (64.12.116.66)]

Hello,

Great post! Thanks for being honest and candid. I'm taking your points to heart.

From what you have written, it sounds like you are doing great. I agree with everything you have said. I made a post earlier saying alot of those things you are saying.

For the record, to the best of my knowledge, everything I've stated in my posts concerning events and issues, I believe to be factual. When I was wrong, I corrected the information I posted. In my opinion, my posts did not contain slander (false statements and reports injurous to someones reputation). None of them were false reports. In any case, know that I prayed alot about this for about one year before posting and tried to do it with a right spirit.

And, if you recall, in the 1970s there was all kinds of persecution from lots of media outlets concerning the walk (which contained much slander), and that did not stop it from growing. Its been my experience that is impossible to talk someone into or out of "this walk with God". The Word of God will always be revealed and spoken by people, but the word and the truth of God will always hold up even in the face of criticism. The fruit of what God does always becomes evident to everyone over time.

My goal in posting was the opposite of slander, it was constructive criticism. To that end, I hope that if/when my posts are read, the issues will be addressed/discussed at local church leadership meetings, and taken to heart by you guys. When I am wrong, you can just ignore them.

I believe that everything happens for a reason, and I believe that all things work together for good for those who love God and who are called according to His purpose, and I believe this factnet thing will work out too.

Also, don't forget about all the people who have left the fellowship and need to validate/gain closure on that part of their life in order to "clear the deck" and move on.

Also, point taken about judge not, lest ye be judged, and look in the log in my own eye before the speck in someone elses, but I'm saying search the scriptures and see if these things are true, and do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

Anonymous (6/07/04, 4:09am)-
"i am not going to pretend ( in my opinion ONLY) that our "church" has been perfect, but who is? we are all human, and humans make mistakes...churches make mistakes just as every "church" does, but this is our "walk" with GOD. Who are you to Judge it? it says plain as day in the Bible..."Judge not, less you be judged your self.."..( something along those lines )"

You bring up a really interesting point...It is for exactly this reason that church should be questioned. People are fallible, so their institutions are by definition fallible. The problem is that the Living Word Fellowship, or at least the people involved tend to think that questioning practices, leadership, etc, is some kind of sign of disobedience, a bad spirit, or whatever.

Let me preface this next statement by making it very clear that I am not implying that the Living Word is a cult, because I still don't think that it truly is. That said, there is unquestionably a general and pervasive tendency to dismiss any questioning of doctrine or leadership within the Fellowship as the questioning person's own shortcoming at best. At worst it is criminalized, and the person asking the questions is labeled as a divider or as some agent of evil who is trying to hinder the Word. Doubtlessly, there have been people who have come and gone and have tried really hard to split people apart out of anger or bitterness or self-serving reasons. But what about the many others of us who simply questioned the way something was done within the privacy of a "Designated Relationship" and were subsequently condemned or chewed out or guilted into a "mind change" by our shepherds? I know I'm not the only one this happened to. Here's the thing: When the leadership turns any questions about the church into some personal or demonic issue of the person asking the question, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A CULT. So whether the Living Word is a cult or not, the people who have had these experiences and think that it is aren't just being bitter. From a really detached, unemotional, objective, outside perspective, it really does look like one.

I want to address this in a different way, too. You said that essentially people on this website are just venting, being bitter, etc. I'm sure some people are. But other people are struggling with issues that have affected them very deeply, and discussing the psychology of why these things have had certain impacts in their lives is a very positive step toward healing. I know from my own experience and from many conversations with people (both when I was fanatically involved, and when I was quietly uninvolved) that many people in the church have issues related to church doctrine, shepherding (human) shortcomings, etc. But most people who are still involved are afraid to talk about them (as discussed above). People who get out have a tendency to find themselves emotionally stunted in one or more areas, and as such struggle with answers about questions they have in their day to day lives. I would compare this to people who grew up in an alcoholic household. They live their lives constantly exposed to certain unhealthy patterns (don't tell me there are no unhealthy patterns in the church - we've already established that as a human institution it does have shortcomings). These patterns set them up to subconsciously process the world in a certain way that is not necessarily the way the rest of humanity processes the world. Things that they think are normal but are not (like getting chewed out for talking to somebody of the opposite sex at YASP) wind up biting them in the ass when they try to have normal relationships at work, school, etc. But the problem is that they cannot see why they have these problems. It is not until they get out and seek some kind of help, whether it is professional, or a support group like Al-anon, that they can start to identify why they have these problems (e.g. "I struggle with relationships because I feel like having a conversation with the opposite sex is something I might get yelled at for at any given minute here). But once the source of the negative pattern is identified, healing can begin.

That's what a lot of people here are doing.

One final thought regarding the whole "people aren't perfect" point for the church, because while I understand your wanting to defend something that is so understandably important to you, I think it behooves Living Word members to try to understand the hurts of many "blow outs" (might help make it a better movelment in the future...???).
Imagine you are married. The person has a really good heart and you know they love you. The only problem is that they constantly come up with ideas they think will make you and your kids' lives better. They blindly enforce these ideas until one or two of the kids snaps and runs away from home for a few days. Given some time they relax that rule, one of the kids comes back, the other still feels totally alienated, and you have some questions about the way things were handled. When you try to talk to your spouse, they tell you that you are going to fall out of favor with God, and no longer be "covered" if you continue with this rebellious attitude (your spouse is, after all your DR based on Divine Order). This cycle repeats itself for 20-something years. You can't ever question your spouse, no matter what kind of crazy diet they "encourage" you to go on, no matter how they do or don't allow you to spend your free time. You have a lot of good times. Your spouse is extremely loving most of the time and has a lot of really good insight that in many ways makes your life better. Because of this you feel very open and trusting. You make yourself vulnerable. Then they do it again. They get on your case for some thing that they believe, out of the goodness of their heart, is some shortcoming that will certainly lead to your demise. Again, you can never question it or you'll get yelled at in the best case, or thrown out and ignored in the worst case.

Eventually some people get a divorce, even though they very deeply love that person who is ultimately being destructive, due to their "human imperfection." This is often the one of the hardest things they ever do. But it's just plain wrong to condemn the person who leaves while leaving the spouse completely unaccountable. And the "judge not lest ye be judged" argument is a huge copout that -- AGAIN -- makes it so nobody can question the church.

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

Another thought... same topic.

Anonymous, I just really have a problem with some of the things you said. I'm not here to argue scripture at all. I just know from 23 years in the walk that there is zero understanding within the group for people who don't feel that they can be there anymore. And that goes equally for people who "blow out" in anger and who candidly state "I love you people, but this is not where I am at right now."

I KNOW THAT THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO TRY TO SLANDER THE CHURCH BECAUSE THEY ARE NASTY PEOPLE WITH A BONE TO PICK.

I don't think that XPineConeX or many of the other people here are doing that. You said something really awful in your post:

"i think its just plain bitterness, ever stop to think it may happened for a reason?"

OK I understand that your point may be that "god had a bigger plan for you..." but here's the thing. Back to square one: people make mistakes. Shepherds are people. Therefore shepherds make mistakes. And if you've been around for more than 5 minutes, you know there have been some really A--hole shepherds who have REALLY hurt people to the point of "blowing them out." And most of those shepherds eventually blow out, too.

What I think you fail to recognize is that most people can only get as angry as many of these people are when they are violently betrayed by somebody they love. Don't tell me that never happens in the Living Word.

Seriously, I'm not trying to beat this dead horse, but my hope is always that people in the church might someday be able to better understand the mentality that people who leave go through, and to recognize that their thoughts and feelings are legitimate and valid even if they are hard to hear. You have to give people some leeway for being upset, because people in the church have a serious history of being really mean to people who leave under any circumstances. I guess what I'm saying is "Try not to take it personally."

[Anonymous (68.78.141.159)]

CMP-
I want to thank you for saying what you did. I can totally relate. I've been gone for about 7 years now and I think I am just finding out who I am. I think it's pretty pathetic. I'm 34 years old after all. But for the first 27 years of my life, someone was always there telling me what to think, feel and do. Who to talk to, how to spend my time. If my thoughts didn't agree, I was intimidated into "submission". No one wants to be abandoned, shunned, ignored, etc. If something was going on that didn't feel good, too bad. I was told to just drop it. That there was something wrong in my spirit. "now go clean the bathroom". I have had to deal with the worst self esteem issues. Being afraid to be a regular old normal woman. That whole Jezebel thing drummed into my head. Not that I got out of line, but how many times can you watch others point the finger and say really nasty things about girls that were just happy to be a girl. They did nothing slutty, they were just very feminine and fun. They were classified as sluts though. It made me afraid to relate to men... even as friends, and forget dating! "did you submit that?". Me, I had been around it all my life and it was just what I knew. I didn't start questioning until I got to my mid 20's. Ya know, I was always encouraged to move in my gifts etc, but when the truth would come out of my mouth, it was shoved down, suppressed. It was very depressing. Only, I didn't realize the trauma of it all until 7 years after I left. I'm still dealing with it. Perhaps those in authority thought they were doing what was right. They said they loved me after all. Me, I grew up in a broken home, most of my time was spent with church people. That was where I learned what "love" is. A few people have told me, not too long after I left, that I acted like an abuse victim. No Wonder!!!!

Anyway, I don't mean to vent and spread bitterness. It is just a relief to talk about it, to realize that I was not wrong for feeling wounded and that the pain was real. It wasn't because I was commiting some profound sin. I'm not a terrible person. And it's ok not to be perfect. That it's ok to get in a bad mood sometimes. That I don't have to be happy all the time and being co-dependent is not healthy. It's ok to have my own thoughts, ideas. God's not sitting there with this big fiery stick waiting to beat me and wreck my life. I got sick of living a life in fear. I left.

Thank you again for saying what you did.

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

Good to hear from you anonymous159. I've had very similar emotions after being exposed for many years...as you have--to what was ultimately a very suppressive environment. I hope you continue to shed any self-blame, and find comfort and understanding by what others share here.
I think it's pretty clear that we all--at least to some degree or another--have suffered under a perverted image of God--one who seems to emphasize discipline and correction at the expense of love and acceptance.
BTW, I know the scripture--'whom God loves he disciplines'--was oft quoted at TLWF. But I think it was usually applied in the same spirit of fundamentalists that quote the 'spare the rod, spoil the child' passage. The result was less life, less love and more fear.


Mike
(making an occasional serious post)

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

Anonymous159,

I can't tell you how happy your post made me. I've done my job! I didn't come on here to debate theology (as lots of other people here do it better than I would at this point), and I didn't come here to talk smack. I came here to help... help people in the church understand that many people who leave in hurt and anger are not bad people, but have legitimate concerns... and to help people like you who have obviously struggled for years in an environment that made you scared to address your struggles. I'm glad you're doing well. I want the absolute best for everybody.

CMP

[Alina Hope (4.242.204.70)]

Anonymous 159, I identify with your post! I've been told by "normal" orthodox christians that I respond to people and situations like an abuse victim would. My husband told me that various times before we got married. Being told this was a SHOCK to me. I thought I acted like a liberated woman! Well, that was about six years ago. It took me quite awhile to feel comfortable having my own thoughts and to think objectively about things.

I remembered something when I read your post that I had forgotten. When I first stopped going to TLWF, all I could think about was how my actions were affecting the other people in the Lake Oswego church. I remember crying to my husband (then boyfriend) about what everyone might have thought and what I was doing to the body (after all, I could have been a toe nail, can you imagine how painful shoes would be without a toe nail?). I don't really know how to put the deep concern I had into words... but it was deep...I'm getting rummy...anyway, I enjoyed your post!

[Anonymous (66.123.255.105)]

I'm wondering if anybody reading/posting on these threads chose not to join another church, &amp; why?

[Anonymous (66.123.255.105)]

By the way, what do you think happened to GreyFox?

[Morpheus (220.65.103.124)]

No one created an atmosphere for him, so his ministry here failed.

[Punch Him in the Eye (4.8.230.53)]

"No one created an atmosphere for him, so his ministry failed."

You're probably right. I've been concerned for weeks that there's not been enough hostility on this board. It probably got to the point where he just couldn't function anymore. That's all on us.


Mike
(getting ready to see 'Dodgeball' so I can hopefully generate some real anger)

[GreyFox (213.35.148.70)]

Morphy and Eyehole: You seem to be by nature and nurture emotionally starved. You guys have your own cult-o-mania going on. How sad that this is your antidote for boredom!

You stumblebums are insane. In short, a bunch of brainsick bedlamites, unfit for human interaction outside of the loony bin.

GOD BLESS.

(I knew you missed me)

[Punch in the eye (4.8.230.53)]

We knew we could draw you back in.
I think we missed your comforting language.

Mike

[analonymous (66.123.254.125)]

"morphy and *******: you seem to be..."

greyfox - why are you calling me out? i didn't say anything! oh wait, i see, you actually said eyehole. i thought it said *******. my bad! i misread your post. peace, analonymous

[Don Gimble (204.156.7.47)]

Mike Jones I would really like to talk to you about the time I heard someone close to you being berated in public ( by G of G and M) for expressing their concern and love for brother DMS

I am at dgimble@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (204.156.7.47)]

Any one here work for "Golden Threads" or "Impact Brush Company"

[donna a.k.a. candle maker (149.174.164.83)]

I never worked for "Golden Threads" but I remember the clothes very well. They were the clothes to buy in my neck of the Midwest woods. They were like a status symbol at our church.

Officially, I never worked for "Impact Brush Company" but I do remember going to the "factory" in Washington, IA (I think that's where it was) and getting a tour from someone who worked there and knew my family. (I think it was to aspire me to think "big" and see what I could do once I finished school--forget college, work in a kingdom business!!!) Then I was put to work for a few of hours assembling paintbrushes. I think I was about 13 or 14 years old. I remember having to tap the brush hairs, or whatever they are called, to get them even and lined up on the end before the metal clip was banded around them and the handle. I had forgotten about this until just now.

Great another thing I can put on my resume--paintbrush assembler, soapmaker, candle maker, and toilet scrubber. I learned so many useful skills from TLWF...maybe I could be the new PR person and poster child!!!

[kathymasonfinotti (68.50.111.134)]

Okay...it took finally getting to these postings to find out that XPineConeX is the son of Bruce and Libby Thomas. I don't know you XPineConeX, but I remember your parents and your sister, Elizabeth very well!! How are you parents? Elizabeth? I used to baby Elizabeth in the nursery at Shiloh...she was my favorite baby!!! Beautiful blue eyes and all that dark hair. And Libby and Bruce were like parents to me! I sometimes miss all the wonderful people in TLW...a lot!

[Anonymous (204.156.7.47)]

Other skills TLWF has helped hundred of kids and adults alike add to their resumes once they leave the divine way. Professional Iowa Corn Picker, Speaker of Death Prayers (to individuals and to companies competing against their Kingdom Business),snow shoveler, garbage collector, saw mill safety engineer (can count to by sevens using both hands), vegetable chopper, nut cracker, Preparer of food for any self professing cult leader, Kingdom School teacher working below minimum wage or free as long as they are in charge of corporal punishment, crerative finance and tomatoe canner and carp catcher.

[kathymasonfinotti (68.50.111.134)]

Well, actually, I did learn some good skills at Shiloh (no, not corn picking...which by the way...I HATE picking corn and will probably never do it again). But, the training I got in transcribing was priceless...it got me into the legal secretarial field and I have to say, a job as a legal secretary in D.C. is a lucrative profession (although after 24 years a somewhat boring one).

I don't know what people mean about praying against others...I can honestly say that the whole time I was in TLW, I never heard that. I'm glad...or I might have freaked out way back then.

[M. M. (4.8.230.53)]

"Speaker of Death Prayers"

That might be of help in our organization. Make sure you highlight it on your resume.
Praise to Allah.
Death to the Great Satan.

Mohammad (Mo) Mujhadin
Al-Q Inc.

[Lael (64.12.117.20)]

Hi everyone. This was the first time for me reading all the years of chatting about the body. I'm impressed and greatly releaved to know that I'm not the only one who thought growing up in the body was a complete mess. Way to complicated, stressful, unhealthy. What ever happened to being Happy and simplifying life. Heaven forbid you do what is right in your own heart without being accused for "doing your own thing" SIN, SIN, SIN. Anyways, now I see why some posts are longer then the nile river, 26 years of dealing with the body, the memories are endless.. Right? Oh but how I'd love to hear more.

[Alina Hope (4.242.201.230)]

I just found a great article that I would like to share with everyone. If you have gone to TLWF for any amount of time and are interested in reading about how TLWF is related to the latter rain movement, this article is awesome! At least I thought so.

www.equip.org/free/DF400.htm

BTW - Welcome Lael, I know who you are (if you are the Lael I think you are), but I never knew you well.

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

Lael:

Can you tell us anything about yourself, or your experience in 'the body?' Also, how did you find out about his place?
Please do not say you had a revelation...but if that's what happened, I'll receive it.

Mike

[Lael (149.174.164.83)]

Mike:

Sorry, I had to laugh about you commenting on "please don't say you had a revelation". A phrase overused as much as "I think you are so awesome" or "it's just battle".
Anyway's,In a nut shell, no I did not have a relevation of the body. I'm only 26 years old, so therefore I am a product of being told my revelation is of my parents revelation who's revelation was really one man's, aka JRS, which probably wasn't technically his either. If you get my drift. I have to ask, are you Mike Schermahorn? But if you are, you know me. Just wondering what's new. To answer your question, my friend told me about this web site. I'm a southgate baby/Haiku Chapel kid/Shiloh resisdant/ex yasp leader/kicked out of shiloh/wowen of valor/spirt of eve. You pick the day and the "shepard" who had no schooling or degree for that matter to counsel, and you get "a word from god" Wha-la. Sound familar.
What experinces do you want to hear about, the good, the bad, the ugly?

To Alina, are you my age? Didn't you live in Honolulu?

Lael

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

Lael:
No...but Schermerhorn brought me into TLWF.
I guess I should seek him out to punish him for that. Uh...just kidding (sort of).
For 22 yrs. I was intensely involved in whatever was going on there. So I've had major psychological and spiritual adjustments to make since leaving in '96. I've found these boards especially helpful of late--since many of the experiences mentioned here I can identify with...and it easier to deal with an aspect of your life that might be tripping you up if you're able to view it for what it is...rather than leaving it buried in your subconscious. I consider people on these board my cyber friends-- that includes even some of the anonymous ones.
Welcome aboard.

Mike Jones

[Alina Hope (4.242.201.54)]

I'm 25 originally from Palmer Lake. =)

[Bill (4.11.199.229)]

Lael,

I know who you are. We baby sat you when you were young. Well I should say my wife was doing the baby sitting. Actually it was only once. Your last name is or was a name of a pure color. I think I would be a little offended of the spirit of eve, wasn't she the one who got the women in trouble with the painful child birth. Well I guess you did get kicked out of Shiloh(Eden)LOL. I don't think you need schooling or a degree to council, but you better know the voice of the Lord. This is what I believe a shepherd is. Someone who loves and looks after the sheep. Sheep dog is someone who looks after the sheep by barking and biting them, but is only faithful to his master. Big difference. You can tell the good, bad, and ugly. But tell the good first.

[Anonymous (204.156.7.47)]

Lael Did your step father help kick you out of Shiloh?

[Lael (67.1.98.113)]

To anonymous and bill, (and Bill who?)
Why do you hide behind anonymous anyways. Embrassed of who you are?

You guy's need to lighten up a little. Some comments are just jokes. I wasn't "kicked" out of Shiloh. I did just get married there 2 months ago. And what's up with the whole step father factor. He was the one whoe married us.
Comparing a shepard to a dog is the worst analogy I've yet heard. I'm pretty sure the sheep dog didn't make the sheep do their laundry, clean their house, do their grocery shopping and watch their kids a drop of hat therefore failing a college course due to "creating an atmostphere" for them

The post board is already getting to far fetched for me.

[Alina Hope (4.242.189.208)]

Lael, If you'd like, there is a lot going on with the Shiloh board. It is under the topic of families. It took me forever to find it when I first came to this board!

[Anonymous (204.156.7.47)]

Lael I don't get it? Are you just writing stuff to fool with peoples heads? First you are mad then you are glad. What's up

[Bill (4.11.199.229)]

Lael,

My name is Bill Summerville. I used to post my whole name, but it seemed to impersonnel(Sp?). I thought of Sheep Dog about 5 years ago. I do think I heard Gary use Sheep Dog analogy a year or 2 ago, but said we need shepherds. How can you ask who anonymous is after being deceitful about being kicked out of Shiloh, just a joke my ass.

[analonymous (67.115.8.224)]

lael,

i post anonymously because iam embarassed and ashamed of who iam. i hope this has helped explain me and my feelings to you.

best wishs, analonymous

[Lael (205.188.117.20)]

Bill.

Bill, have you ever been a Shiloh residant? You see, as I stated above "kicked out of Shiloh" meant having to move out of the BUILDING called Shiloh in order to make room for summer camp one year. Getting kicked out of Shiloh does not = getting kicked out of the body.
Deceitful huh, or just a misunderstanding on your part.

[Lael (205.188.117.20)]

Alina
Thanks for helping me out. That is sweet of you

Lael

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

"i post anonymously because iam embarassed and ashamed of who iam. i hope this has helped explain me and my feelings to you."

Come on...no need for embarrassment. Tell you what--I'll link a pic of me during a late 70's intercession (death) session--with veins protuding from my neck, possible stroke pending--to take the pressure off you. It will definitely make you feel better about yourself.


Mike

[Bill (4.11.199.229)]

Lael,

I can only answer your question about being deceitful or a misunderstanding, if I know whether you are still in the body or not.

[Bill (4.11.199.229)]

Lael,

I've been praying about it, and maybe I did misunderstand you, and maybe you misunderstood me. I still would like to know, if you are still, a member of the church. I'm was not saying a shepherd is a dog, I was saying a sheep dog is a dog. A sheep dog doesn't make people do their laundry, clean their house, make their laundry list(well they might sometimes) but they want you to do it for their master.

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

Lael,

We're old friends! I post anonymously because I have family members to whom the LWF is their entire life, and I don't want to cause them any hurt or embarassment, etc. My views have diverged quite a bit from what they were once upon a time. I mostly show up to be silly and post sarcastic notes to keep the mood light, but every once in a while somebody says something outrageous and insensitive and I have to jump to try to help people explain that not all people who left the church are lost and just waiting for somebody to convince us HOW the LWF teachings are really the greatest thing ever.

Anyways, if you ever feel like saying hi to an old friend (or if anybody else wants to talk privately), feel free to drop me a line:

monkeypuzzle28@yahoo.com

[Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)]

I didn't realize that people were still posting on these other boards. Here I've only been reading that one super long board.... all the while missing out on these stimulating conversations. Somebody needs to keep me up to date. If you see a month go by with no post from The Captain I think we ALL feel the lack. So you know... keep me connected in. Who is going to be my DR here? Huh????????

CMP

[Whoa Dude (68.221.13.26)]

Want to play 20 questions? Go to FactNet/Families and Relationships/Subtopic: "Shiloh Kalona Iowa Cult"

Guess Who

[Anonymous (204.156.7.47)]

TLW leaders are psychological manipulators who claim themselves as very important people in the eyes of God. They depend upon strong, charismatic leadership and their beliefs combine a variety of current ideals attracting those that are lonely and insecure as well as those currently effected by terrorism reports and other world events.
Their belief systems are based in flattery, threats and guilt. Members are expected to give their total allegiance. A totalitarian cult is a theological system, developed with personal rituals and dogma, backed up by giving money toward special causes and needs, not to mention paying for lawsuits and cars. Powerful coercive techniques are used such as isolation from friends and family, information control, group pressure and shunning. The obedience and hierarchical structure (She Who Must Be Obeyed) serve as an adhesive for the group. There is an entire immersion into this alternate lifestyle that is based on the hopes, ambitions, and fears of their leaders along with the greed of the leadership. Most people in this church do not get to share in the money but they do settle for attention. That is really pitiful.
You guys need to escape from this group or sneak your way out. You will be a lot happier in the long run. If you do not believe this or do not feel ready then at least write down a summary of where your life is right now and then look at what you wrote one year from now and see if there has been an improvement. If not then leave. Get out and see what a wonderful world you are missing. I am not talking about drugs, sex and rock and roll. I am just talking about being able to relate to the world and to people in it; wonderful, fun-loving, honest people that are nicer then your leaders. Stop this self-abasing and demoralizing addiction and get out there and live. If you have got to be religious then go find a nice little pleasant church.

[Josh W. (209.78.80.254)]

To Chad Molina -

I don't know if you still read the boards, but if you do, I wanted you to know something.

I really appreciate something you once did for me the one visit I had to Shiloh. It was one summer, and you were there at the same time. We (myself, you, and a bunch of others) were out weeding the (god-damned) thorn bushes. Apparently, a bunch of brand new shovels had just been purchased, and a lecture was given out to be careful not to break them, as they were brand new.

SO...what do I do, but of course, break one almost immediately. I felt real poopy, and a couple of guys were sort of laughing and asked "who did it".

Without missing a beat, you looked at them and said "does it matter?"

What you did really made me feel better, like someone really cared. I was 14, and what you did has stayed with me to this day - like no matter what, there are caring people from this church (even though I don't think you go anymore, nor do I).

I've always felt indebted to you for that show of kindness. I didn't realize until recently that the "Chad" writing on the earlier posts was you! I've not seen any comments from you in the last couple of months, but I hope you "check in" from time to time, because I wanted to know how much I appreciated what you did (even though this is somewhat of a public area, hehe).

Even though the Bakersfield AND Fresno churches have both closed down, you may remember me from a snow trip the two churches went on maybe 12-13 years ago (or, maybe you don't). You came over to the apartment I shared with a brother in the church, and we all watched the movie "Dutch" starring Ed Oneal. Do you remember that?

I remember you as always a really cool guy. I once saw you at a feast service in LA, and ran up to you and gave you a big hug - I laugh now because I remember at the time, you looked at me like "who the f*ck are you dude?" Hehe. You couldn't have realized that even then, I remembered what you did from that day at Shiloh.

I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated what you did, and I hope you are well and happy and having a good life. If you ever read this, please feel free to write in, and maybe I can get your email address (or give you mine) and we can catch up.

[Donald Duck (81.118.4.7)]

For all Current and Past Members of The Church of the Living Word / Living Word Fellowship / The Walk: Talking Points

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FACTNet Message Board: Religious Cults and Sects: Church of the Living Word / The Walk / John Robert Stevens: For all Current and Past Members of The Church of the Living Word / Living Word Fellowship / The Walk: Talking Points
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XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 04:04 pm
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Hi everyone. I thought it would be nice to create a new thread that will take less time to open.

My idea for this thread would be sort a reunion-type deal for anyone who was in the Living Word Fellowship recently or even many years ago. I know I have many friends who I have not heard from in years and would love to hear from them.

What was / is your experience with the Living Word Fellowship, John Stevens, the new leadership, Shiloh, the School of Prophets, your friends and family in the movement?

What local church did you belong to? What books/manuals/tapes were you into?

How has your membership effected your family?

What other churches have you been involved with? What did you like / dislike about them?

What do you think about Latter Rain theology in general? William Branham, Winston Nunes, George Warnock, and most recently Rick Joyner?

What do you think about spiritualism / mysticism in general?

What do you think about our presidential race and the war in Iraq? How do your political / economical views relate to your religious/spiritual views?

Just trying to get started with some ideas for people to post about.

By the way, if it is the first time you are posting, its ok to post anonymously. I posted anonymously many times before revealing my identity. But revealing my identity has made my posts more interesting for everyone to read, so I would encourage anyone when they feel ready, to post.


Jon (152.163.252.129)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 04:37 pm
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I'll start by giving some of my opinions. I've already given my views on alot of these topics, but I thought I'd list my favorite books and manuals from the Living Word:

Give Attendance to Reading (manual)

Halley's Bible Handbook (buy at a bible bookstore)

Strongs Exhaustive Concordance (buy at a bible bookstore)

The First Principles: (The manual I owe much of my scriptural foundation to reading, accompanied by reading the corresponding bible verses in each outline. By the way, I found doing one lesson a day was enough. I got bogged down when I tried to do more lessons in a day.

Tuning into the Wisdom of the Lord (This Week): How to wait on the Lord, how to find his voice. Very interesting.

Living Now (This Week): If you like time management / effectiveness, you will love this.

Principles of the Kingdom (manual): expositions of the Beattitudes. Simple but very applicable.

He is Willing and Able (manual): All about faith. The power of faith, Hebrews 11:1, the untapped potential of the promises/words of God.

The School of Prophets Manuals:

One manual describing each of the 9 gifts of the spirit (I've never read a more thorough in my opinion accurate description of the gifts, how they are aquired, how they work, etc)

Spiritual Perception: very informative on the spirit realm.

How to Bring a Sermon: very descriptive of how John Stevens read the bible and prepared his sermons (he never had a planned sermon he would write the night before, but he had tons of outlines and ideas filed away for reference, tells how he did it)

These are just a few of my favorites.

"What do you think about our presidential race and the war in Iraq? How do your political / economical views relate to your religious/spiritual views?"

I used to believe that the whole corporate/political establishment should be brought down in a way that would be the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.

I think it will change, but it won't be as dramatic as the picture painted in Revelation.

We have this battle between the secularists and the traditionalists over "under God" in the pledge of alliegance. The traditionalists will win this one.

We have the Securities and Exchange Commission requiring more transparency and disclosure for CEOs and corporate executives.

We have the new enormously popular 24/7 Fox News channel that will allow both sides of the debate about politics and economics.

We have some outspoken, progessive liberals that will not tolerate corruption in the current administration. They have an audience.

We have educated voters, especially the 18-30 year olds, that are predicted to be well represented in our next presidential election.

I've noticed that ever since 9/11, all of my friends and I are very interested in the news, current events, and politics.

I realized that if I want to make a difference, I need to be voting in the presidential elections, and the state house and senate elections. Even city politics is important if you are raising a family and concerned about what is going on.

I would say the biggest step towards making our government more Godly would be to get all the Christians out there voting, and writing letters to senators or congressmen.

Some issues I am passionate about are the environment, reproductive rights, malpractice/litigation reform for physicians, getting the 41 million uninsured Americans good health insurance, tax cuts for all the tax brackets, and correcting the racial inequities in our capital punishment/law enforcement systems. Some of these are supported by democrats, some by republicans, but they are all imporant.

I think our government is here to stay. The constitution is not perfect, but it is better than any other country has come up with.

John Stevens said he thought "The Stars and Stripes will be flying in the Kingdom".

I know people in the LWF are very patriotic, after being at the 4th of July celebrations at Shiloh when the war vetrans spoke at the service.


XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 10:22 pm
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Just trying to generate new interest in this new thread I've started. One advantage to posting on this thread is that it doesn't take as long to open.


Alina Hope (4.242.201.222)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:29 pm
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Strongs Exhaustive Concordance is not actually from TLWF, neither is Halley's Bible Handbook. Just thought I would clear that up.

I have some major problem with The First Principles. It's foundation is off-base. I was going to never, ever post my personal findings on The First Principles, but I think I will post part of it now. I LOVE the people in TLWF, but I think they are totally led astray. I think JRS was off base to begin with, he had no problem using the Bible to make it say whatever he wanted. That post will follow this one.


Alina Hope (4.242.201.222)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:48 pm
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I only went through the first 20 lessons. This is choppy because I took out some of the things that I would rather not post publically. Here are my findings:

Before I start going through the book, let me explain some objectives that I will use (that I learned in college). For something to pass as true, they must pass the following criteria: 1) The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. For an idea to be proven (and not a misinterpretaion), that idea should be found in at least two places in the Bible. See Joshua 1:8 and Acts 17:11. Basically looking for confirmation within the scriptures. 2) Never take a verse out of context. Be wary of someone proclaiming the truth but only cites one Bible verse. Read the verse above and below the one in question. It is even better to read the whole chapter containing the verse in question. 3) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the highest beings in the Universe. They are all God and we are made to serve Him. Anything that demotes Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit is a faulty teaching; that misinterprets the true nature of the Triune God.

1) Lesson 1: Salvation – point II says, “The first man disobeyed God’s command…this was the beginning of sin.” Then point III says, “The result of disobedience (or sin) to God.” Is he defining sin as disobedience? Or is he saying that disobedience is a sin? He never really explains what he defines sin as. If he defines it as simply disobedience, than JRS has surely missed the mark. (By the way, the Greek word for sin used in the New Testaments means “to miss the mark,” like on a bulls-eye). =) do you see my little play on words?
2) Lesson Five: Christian living –
a. Point I brings up the idea of sin again and that sins are forbidden and forsaken, yet still no definition of sin. He is allowing us to believe that sin is simply disobedience.
b. Point II, #10 says, “The Christian…He has a new family.” The scripture that he says to turn to is Ephesians 2:19-22. Read that. The only thing close to “new family” is “are of God’s household.” Since when does that mean new family? Seems to be a bit of a stretch to me.
3) Lesson 10: The Second Coming of Jesus Christ –
a. Point III. “He is coming to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS, and to be admired in ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE. II Thess. 1:7-12.” Here is what II Thess. 1:10 says: “when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed – for our testimony to you was believed.” Most Christians believe that this means He will be among us, in our midst, and we will marvel at His awesome glory. This whole idea makes me particularly uneasy. This is he only place in the scripture that this idea of Him coming back IN HIS SAINTS before his second coming is even mentioned, at least that I could find. That makes it particularly suspect.
b. Point V. “In the end-time, a great revival is to come to prepare the Saints for Jesus’ coming just like the rain prepares the fruit for harvest. James 5:7-11.” No mention of revival in this passage. Rain and harvest are mentioned, but the idea of revival is infused by JRS. Then in the same point he says, “Jesus wants a church that is pure and ready. Ephesians 5:25-27.” The scripture he points to basically says that we are made pure by the sacrifice that Jesus already made and finished…He is pointing to scripture that is speaking about marriage and how a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church…I don’t understand the connection he is making. It seems that both of the scriptures he points to in Lesson 10, point V are taken out of context.
c. Point VI. “In the end time, the power and miracles of the Bible will be restored to the church. Acts 3:19-24.” Read this scripture, I thought that maybe I turned to the wrong chapter at first, but I don’t see any mention of miracles being restored. Were they ever really lost? Draw your own conclusions.
d. Point VIII. “These end time events will come upon the earth and men will be unaware that the Day of the Lord is Dawning. I Thess. 5:1-11.” Worldly people might be unaware that the day is coming, but even the verse that he points to says that “destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” That’s in verse 3. I don’t know, the two statements don’t logically fit to me. Verse 3 describes the day of the Lord being like a woman in childbirth. Having that experience myself, I KNEW that the baby was coming. I could be being petty.

4) Lesson 11: The Church –
a. In the introduction, JRS says that all sectarian division is wrong and that we should “pray for God to put us in a local New Testament Church (not a denominational church).” He says division of the church is wrong, yet he is advocating division by saying that we should find only a “non-denominational” church…interesting. He says that “in the Bible there is only one true church, and it was not divided into denominations.” Yet there was major division in the early church. There were divisions over whether or not to circumcise, to follow the Old Testament law, to accept gentiles into their numbers, etc. Peter’s view of things was different than Paul’s, and Paul’s was different than John’s, etc. I remember hearing in a service once that a church building isn’t the church, the church is the people. Well, According to Paul Little in the book “Know What You Believe,” denominations are the same thing. A denomination isn’t the church of the Bible, the church spoken of in the New Testament is all believers in Jesus Christ.
b. Point III. “Who can become members of the church and how do hey become members?” JRS lists some vague scriptures and is actually on the right track, I just find it odd that he doesn’t actually say that those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior are considered members of the church. This is just an odd section.
5) Lesson 12: Going on with God –
b. Point VI. “Remember that all power is given to Jesus Christ to back you up.” My problem is the last four words that are added to that statement. All power is given to Jesus Christ because he is God! It is not “to back you up.” Does this seem like Jesus Christ is being made a servant to us? Draw your own conclusions.

7) Lesson 15: Discerning the true from the false – Point III and VI. “How can I know if a teaching is true” and “how can I know if a teacher or minister is sent of God?” He sites John 7:17 and (I didn't write down the right verse!). He leaves out scriptures that speak of searching the scriptures to see if things are true (Joshua 1:8, Acts 17:11, Isaiah 34:16). He instead points at a verse of Jesus speaking of Himself. One that starts with the subjective “If any man is willing to do His will…”
8) Lesson 17: Singing in the Spirit – Point IV. 1) “Distinguish Singing in the Spirit from natural singing.” Sites I Corinthians 14:15, 26. I find the verses contradictory to his point, especially when read in context. 2) “Distinguish also worship and singing in the Spirit from Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs.” Sites Colossians 3:12-17. I don’t see any separation of worship and singing in the spirit from Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Check it out for yourself.
9) Lesson 18: Our Worship – Point III #1. At the end of this point he says, “Prayer is concerned with our needs. Praise is concerned with our blessings. Worship is concerned with loving and adoring God Himself.” Well, I adore and love God in my prayers and praises, so his definitions don’t seem to fit my experiences. I decided to look up the definitions in a concordance. It defines prayer as “to ask, to worship.” The definition given for praise as a noun “acclamation, honor” and as a verb “to extol, to glorify.” The definition of worship is “to bow, to revere.” He has changed the definition of these words!
10) Lesson 10: Understanding. Introduction: “There is a faculty by which we know true doctrine when we hear it. The faculty is not our mental powers, but an ability of our spirit which is God-given to those who will do the will of God.” Does this seem like a control tactic? “Oh, the reason I know this is true is because I will to do the will of God. How come you don’t understand? You must not have the will to do the will of God.” This is the premise of this whole section, so I find the whole section faulty.

Each person is entitled to their own conclusions. I think that getting a Bible study at a Christian book store would be far more worth your while than basing your Christian Faith and your view of the Bible on The First Principles.


Alina Hope (4.242.201.222)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:20 am
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I would love to hear all CONSTRUCTIVE comments on the above posting. I will ignore postings that are rude, foul, biligerant, etc. No one can shake my faith in Jesus Christ, so you might as well not try!


XPineConeX (64.12.116.66)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:49 am
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Alina,

Thanks for taking the time to post. I respect your opinions.

Another very interesting point is that there were three editions of the First Principles. The first was the original writing by JRS (early 1950s) the second edition around the time of the late 1970s he made some subtle changes in the "definitions" lesson. He changed the definition of "submission" to make it sound much more controlling. The specifics of this, as well as much other doctrinal talking points about LWF can be found in the Spiritual Counterfeits Project report that I have referenced elsewhere on other threads.

JRS knew what he was doing with doctrine. He was brilliant at coming up with a "revelation" (or new idea that he heard or read or researched) and finding a scripture (or two, or three) to back it up. Thus the author of the SPC report calls JRS's scriptural reference in Romans 8 for resurrection life "one of the most bizzare scripture twistings in the recent history of Christianity" or something to that effect. What JRS would have called revelation, the author the SPC report (Woodrow Nichols) called twisting of scripture.

SPC had been criticizing this weeks and manuals of JRS throughout the 70s, so this info/critique was readily available if anyone ever wanted to check it out.

Also, some of the scriptures JRS used in his teachings he got from Latter Rain-influenced literature, most notably the book "The Feast of Tabernacles", written by George Warnock/Ern Baxter (can't remember which guy, but they were all associated closely with the Latter Rain movement). And much of Johns doctrine had "been circling in the backwaters of Neo-Pentacostalism for some time", (SPC report) before he recorded alot of it. Certainly he modified some of it to fit within the parameters of the Walk.

I still like the First Principles, I guess for the sentimental meaning that it was how I built my foundation in the Word. One still must chew the fish and spit out the bones, especially the lessons about sectarianism, Babylon, and especially lesson 50, 3 great steps to the perfection of the church. Woodrow Nichols criticized heavily lesson 50, for the implications of the deification of man.


Anonymous (67.115.10.151)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:23 pm
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The other night I found a short-cut through the threads--if you just type in www.factnet.org, you get the home page, click on discussion &amp; then last day, &amp; you will get a list of all new posts for the last 24 hours or so. Then you can scan the list for the one you want, &amp; see who has been posting since you last looked. It saves a LOT of time.


Alina Hope (4.242.186.53)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:37 pm
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Jon, you said, "I still like the First Principles, I guess for the sentimental meaning that it was how I built my foundation in the Word. One still must chew the fish and spit out the bones, especially the lessons about sectarianism, Babylon, and especially lesson 50, 3 great steps to the perfection of the church. Woodrow Nichols criticized heavily lesson 50, for the implications of the deification of man."

I hope it's okay if we agree to disagree on this subject. I feel that if JRS's foundation of the word was off, (the word being the Bible) then everything he built on that was off. He built on the sand and not on bedrock, so to speak.

By the way, I know that if you don't have a First Principles on hand it would be difficult to go through my outline. I would encourage everyone to get to know their Bible by reading it for what it is - not what the First Principles makes of it.


Anonymous (152.163.252.129)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:37 pm
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It is interesting to me that there are many other churches and seminars that teach from the First Principles.

It is also interesting to read the twists. You are to young to have heard JRS teach these lessons and there is a lot of information and connections that you are missing. You and I both know that we can read any book and totally miss what the author is describing, just watch any movie after reading the book. Or just read the bible.

I am both glad and sad that you did not grow up in the 40's and 50's. You would not have been able to have these discussions. It was not that long ago that you would not have had the access to the scriptures either. There is a history that is awesome of many throughout the past 2000+ years of those who fought so that you could even be able to read the bible. Did they do things perfectly? I think not. Please do not judge what you think you are reading.

It is also interesting that the Pharisees, those who were educated, were the ones who worked so hard to discredit Jesus. They should have been the ones to recognize Him first.

Why take so much time to analyze anything in a negative light. (What do the first four letters spell?) You can do that with anyone or anything, still not a productive avenue.

Look at what Martin Luther did, he started a restoration "The just shall live by faith" yet he hated the Jewish people. Then the SS of Germany used what he said and persecuted the Jews.

There is a group trying to teach that the holocaust did not happen during WWII. Why? They weren't there, it is not a part of their reality.

Did you know that Jesus was a Pharisee? It was a sect in Judaism, Jesus was a Rabbi. Not all of the Pharisees tried to destroy Jesus.

Did you know that with a few exceptions, that there is a confirming scripture in the "old" testament for each verse in the "new" testament?

The "sister" book to Revelations is Genesis as strange as that may sound it is true. That is a study in itself.

Your beliefs are yours, and you have every right (now) to believe them. Every one is entitled to the same freedoms in this great country. Not so in others.

You are trying to discredit someone you don't know, that is wrong.

You seem to believe that disobedience is not sin (or visa versa). Adam's sin was his disobedience in the garden and that was simply eating the fruit of the tree he was told not to eat of. You can research and find that that is the foremost cause of any of Israels griefs. Murder was not a sin (for the Hebrews) until God said "thou shalt not commit murder". If you commit murder then it is a sin because of your disobedience.

As a people they had no guidelines or laws to abide by at that time, other than what Pharoh dictated to them. God gave them 613 laws to walk in, not just the 10 commandments as most Christians beleive.

Jesus was obedient to the laws and thus fulfilled them, He had no sin in Him.


Alina Hope (4.242.186.53)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:07 pm
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You sound like my daddy! The Jesus/Pharisee thing, the old/new testament thing. My dad says these things often in discussion.

The things I posted are MY opinions, but if JRS wanted these things to be the Principles by which his church was built on, and I am reading these wrong, don't you think he should have been a little more clear on what he was trying to portray has the principles on which his church are built? The things I found in The 1st Principles weren't twists! They are there, plain as day. I am not judging these things, or trying to tear down the church, I am logically and objectively looking at The 1st Principles. The objective being the Bible as a whole. "Where does it possibly stray from my objective?" This was my mindset. If you can disprove that these things are what he is saying, I welcome that! Please, include quotes directly from JRS.

To the disobedience thing: Disobedience IS a sin. I was trying to say that it is not the only sin, yet when reading the 1st principles, the author lets you believe that the definition of sin is disobedience. Sin is falling short, missing the mark, etc.

I never said that I wasn't gratful to be able to have my beliefs, my Bible, my freedom of speech. I can, and will, discuss why I think TLWF is off the mark. That is a privilege I have as an American. I am grateful for that.

You said, "God gave them 613 laws to walk in, not just the 10 commandments as most Christians beleive." You have been away from mainstream Christianity for so long that you don't even know that most Christians do know this! Every Christian I have ever talked about the old testament to knows this. I'm not trying to be mean, but TLWF has isolated themselves so much from other christians that they don't even know what the average christian believes.

That being said, I am taking a break to seek the Lord. I may be back, I may not.


Bill (4.11.198.22)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:54 pm
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Matt: 22: 37-40,

Jesus replied. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. I'm not saying forget the other 611, but to be truthful I'm still working on these 2. The First Principles was just an outline for people to get started with their study of the bible and a walk with God. If you want to know more I believe their are 1000's of tape to listen to that you can order from www.thelivingword.org. One that I would recommend would be " What I Am By The Grace Of God" 10-3-82. That tape was during the last feast of tabernacles that John ever attended.


Anonymous (152.163.252.129)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 07:56 pm
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When you talk about sin you have to use the Hebrew not the Greek. Hebrew basically says sin is turning away (being disobedient).
There is no word for repentance in the Hebrew but there is one on turning back to G-d.


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 08:56 pm
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Alina: "To the disobedience thing: Disobedience IS a sin. I was trying to say that it is not the only sin, yet when reading the 1st principles, the author lets you believe that the definition of sin is disobedience. Sin is falling short, missing the mark, etc."

Never saw it that way and still I do not see it that way (in regards to the First Principles), though if that is how you choose to see it...

Alina: (Regarding the First Principles, Lesson One: ""The first man disobeyed God's command…this was the beginning of sin." Then point III says, "The result of disobedience (or sin) to God." Is he defining sin as disobedience? Or is he saying that disobedience is a sin?"

Man's disobedience to God's command In Gen. 2:16-17 resulted in what many call the "falling away" or "the beginning of sin." Gen. 3:6. Disobedience resulted in man turning away from God, missing the mark, falling short....

And, yes, disobedience is "a" sin.

Alina: "If he defines it as simply disobedience, than JRS has surely missed the mark."

JRS is not defining sin as "simple" disobedience. Disobedience was the beginning of sin. Isreal was disobedient to many of God's commands. The book of Hebrews is full of this. Sin came upon us through one man. Salvation from sin came also through one Man: Jesus Christ.

Sin from Stong's Concordance:
1) equivalent to 264

a) to be without a share in

b) to miss the mark

c) to err, be mistaken

d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong

e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act

3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed
either by a single person or by many

It is also to note in the First Principles that many things are not defined as black and white. This is for the reader to search and find an understanding therein. John gives the basic foundation, associated scriptures, and then it is up to the reader or Bible Study group to find, discuss and understand. John himself said that "these lessons are not intended to deal exhaustively with the foundational truths of the Bible; they are a simple indroduction to those great truths."

Here is the Hebrew concordance on the word sin:

1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness

a) (Qal)

1) to miss

2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty

3) to incur guilt, incur penalty by sin, forfeit

b) (Piel)

1) to bear loss


2) to make a sin-offering

3) to purify from sin

4) to purify from uncleanness


c) (Hiphil)

1) to miss the mark

2) to induce to sin, cause to sin

3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment

d) (Hithpael)

1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way

2) to purify oneself from uncleanness

Again, the rabbi teaching: To sin is to "turn away". To repent is to "turn toward".

p.s. I miss that baby!


Alina Hope (4.242.189.135)
Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 03:26 am
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Well, I just couldn't sleep until I apologized for my posts here. I didn't realize they were harsh. My husband read them and said that even though he knows my intentions that they came across differently than I meant them to. I should have listened to the Holy Spirit prompting me to stop on Wednesday.

I am frustrated that you can not hear the tone of my voice or see my intentions by just reading my posts.


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 02:35 pm
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Alina,

Posting words on the internet can never convey the actual intent of the heart unless one is fact to face. Words are the Trojan Horse by which the universe enters the mind, but not always can they express the weight of one's heart.

Don't loose any sleep!

You and Dave are always in the Swallows' heart wherever you go and whatever you do. Agree or disagree, you are always and forever loved.


Jon (64.12.116.66)
Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:04 am
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Alina, I love reading your posts, and we can definitely agree to disagree and still get along, b/c I respect your opinions and I know you are passionate about what you believe. No need to apologize.. we are just stating our passionately held beliefs. So, I hope you decide to keep posting!

Joseph, Bill, and Larry or anyone in the LWF,

Can you guys explain how JRS and the current leadership view politics, the business world (Wall Street), and economics? I know of the scripture "render to caesar those things that are caesars, and God those things that are Gods", etc, but I've never heard much of these topics mentioned in tapes or read much about them in This Weeks. Were there ever any specific endorsements for elected governmental officials? Did JRS ever state his opinions on these topics? Was JRS a registered voter in presidential elections or local politics, or did he ever talk about things of that nature?

Just curious, thanks!


Steve McGee (64.12.116.66)
Monday, April 26, 2004 - 06:05 am
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I like this message board. There is a lot of good information to study here. Alina's critique of "First Principles" is very good. Jon's reading list is great. I wish I could get my hands on some of those books. My School of Prophets manuals are dated 1970: The First Ministry School. Wish I could trade copies of my manuals with someone else who has later editions. Anybody have copies of 'This Weeks' from the 70's? I know that the Living Word Publications used to have bound copies of the old 'This Weeks' for $25.00, but not now, apparently. My favorite translation is still The New American Standard. It used to be mandatory in the 70's. Anybody ever heard of Jerry and Margarete Beavers? They did the Laguna Beach Church. I always wondered where they went off to after I was kicked out of the Laguna Church. (another story)


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Monday, April 26, 2004 - 05:55 pm
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Jon,

I don't ever remember anyone endorsing a government official. That would seem to me, to be a violation of separation of church and state. I know we pray for the president, no matter which party seems to be in office. As far as JRS being a registered voter, I have no idea. I know I'm not myself. I figure who shall I vote for, evil 1 or evil 2, but that's just my opinion. I guess you could say I swing a little to the right, but I think that's because it seems to help my paycheck. Selfish, I know.

Steve,

I have quite a few This Weeks and Manuals. I don't have the bound copies though. I was going through some of the older stuff and one is called,
New Life " Grow in Grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" Compiled by John Robert Stevens and Vere L. Thomas. I also found a booklett written by Samuel Shagaloff. He used to be a member in South Gate and it was written in 1958. The name was "A Warning (With Glory to God)" It's a little dated, because it's not politically correct and I didn't agree with him about women, but it was still interesting to read. I agree with you about the NAS, but the NIV is easier to read. I would die if I had to read the KJV, I know that is what everyone read when the First Principles were written. Actually, when you listen to the old tapes, everyone is saying, thee and thou and brother and sister. Not making fun, that's just the way everyone was taught. Funny thing, I remember reading something in the NIV bible, can't remember what it was. I'm thinking to myself, I don't ever remember John bringing a word about this, maybe this is a new revelation. I know 2 weeks hadn't gone by and I was reading a This Weeks dated late 60's or early 70's and their it was. Sorry I don't give more details but I'm a chicken peck typer.


Anonymous (4.242.189.100)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 01:31 am
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A realy good translation is the New King James version. If you have a hard time with the King james language this is a good translation. The King James is true to the original manuscripts and the New King James takes out the "thou's" and stuff like that but is just as true to the original text.


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:51 pm
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Anonymous,

Thanks for the recommendation. I will check out the NKJV.


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:48 pm
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Bill,

Have you yet tried Rotherham's Emphasized Bible?


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:02 pm
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Joe,

You guys are killing me. No I haven't, but I will take a look at that one also.


Steve McGee (205.188.117.20)
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:18 am
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http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm

http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/errors.htm

There are probably hundreds of bible studies, like these examples, which show how translations suffer errors in text and meaning. I know that Brother Stevens used many translations but preferred NAS because certain key scriptures were more spiritually correct.

Brother Stevens would always say how Jesus said, "The Scriptures testify about me" (John 5:39) So we were encouraged to look for the references of how God reconciled the world to Him, prepared the world to recieve Jesus, and the resurrection. Certain scriptures that refer to these topics are different in different translations.

Brother Stevens also reminded us that Jesus said, "If you remain in my Word, truly you are my disciples" (John 8:31) So looking for errors and forgeries in bible translations became a mandatory thing.

As I read these forums, here and elsewhere, about the turn that the Living Word has taken in the past 20 years, I am amazed at the errors in teaching, and how the current pastors have turned away from emphasizing the Holy Spirit's function to reveal the Lordship of Christ, to using the divine authority of their office to reveal the Lordship of their ministry.

It dosen't seem like they care wether anyone reads the bible or not.


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:32 pm
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Steve,

"As I read these forums, here and elsewhere, about the turn that the Linving Word has taken in the past 20 years..."

I've also read these forums, and, as one still deeply involved in TLW Fellowship, I could not but disagree further. I have never seen a turning away from the emphasis on the Holy Spirit's function to reveal the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Rather, the Lordship of Jesus Christ is the primary focus, with a teaching that each member learn to hear the leading of the Holy Spirit. JRS never wanted followers or worshipers, but a people who walked in a oneness with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior; each with his/her own walk with God, not the position-thinking based blind following a leader whose sole emphasis was their leadship of spirituality. There are shepherds after God's heart to see the sheep come into maturity.

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible is my choice, but I always finding myself reading Rotherham's with the NAS and the NIV or KJ, just to get a better view of the Scriptures. I try to get people excited about the Bible, to search it, to let it be real to them in their daily walk with God. Understand that there are many like who DO CARE whether anyone reads the Bible or not.

By the way Steve, were not at one time at Impact and a part of the Newport Beach Church under Bob McClane?


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 11:41 am
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This Week Vol Xlll. No. 9
ARE YOU AWARE OF HIM? Page 13

There is a worship of God, a worship of the Lord Jesus Christ, that must come now, because we are not going to have oneness in one another's hearts with any significant awareness until we have it first in the heart of the Lord.

Ninety or ninety-five percent of the Kingdom of God is oneness with the Lord. The other five or ten percent is our oneness with each other. Don't ever distort this fact by thinking, "Oh, we have to live in one another's hearts!" That is just the secondary thing. The first is that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit will be one with us. Then we can be one with each other. We have heard this again and again.

This is me talking now. How many believe that this is true. This is how our focus is to be. I know I want that in my heart.


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Friday, April 30, 2004 - 11:25 am
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My pastor recently brought a teaching from 1 Timothy on doctrinal error and mentioned the commonly accepted criteria for a "cult". They are: 1. Does the group claim to have superior spiritual teaching that other groups do not have? and 2. Is there difficulty exiting the group? He is president of the National Association of Evangelicals representing thousands of mainstream christian churches across the U.S. so I feel his definition is not an isolated viewpoint.

I realize the word "cult" is very offensive and nobody likes to be called offensive names. I am not calling TLW a cult but I do think TLW needs to be examined in light of this definition to see the areas where it may apply. It could be helpful for those inside TLW to know the criteria that other christians use to view groups similar to TLW.

On a personal note, it deeply concerns me to see the difficulty many have had leaving TLW. The many personal stories on this website reflect this. I now know (I didn't know while a member of TLW) that there are many healthy churches where God's people can be coached in their walk with Him. It's sad to see people "lost" for many years before they finally get their feet back on the ground. I don't feel they were being equipped to stand on their own feet with the Lord but rather raised to be dependent on others in a way that prolonged immaturity and also made them unnecessarily vulnerable to the enemy in an unhealthy way.


XWalkite (207.69.90.181)
Friday, April 30, 2004 - 12:17 pm
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Living Word people are arrogant, believeing they have the only truth and all of it. I don't have any qualms about calling Living Word a cult. However I don't have any qualms about calling many more acceptable Christian sects-cults.


Jeremy Lane (67.21.17.162)
Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:02 pm
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Hi Alina, Hi Larry... Glad to see both of you posting again!! I will be following this board now...Thanks Jon for starting it!


XWalkite (209.86.141.234)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 09:17 am
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Anybody that has been in one of the "designated relationships" how about posting and tell of your experiences.


GreyFox (198.81.26.106)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 10:50 am
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Xwalkie: I have been in one for several years now. It's been very good for me, but I can't say that about my designee. I gave him alot of grief to say the least. His name is Jesus. As far as anyone human, I have chosen myself. And we get along just fine. Sounds righteous doesn't it? Let's just say that if I were candy I'd be divinity.


analonamous (67.115.10.236)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:28 pm
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dear grey fox , if you figured out you were your own d. r. early in the game (or late for that matter) my hat (or cap) is off to you. i wish i would have come to that faster than i did. ultimately i arrived there but it caused me to be a non participant. how did your decision sit with the earthly hierarchy or sheperding in terms of submission to them. did you or do you still take flak for taking responsibility for your own decisions? in my day saying what you said would not have been a okay thing. is your type of thinking on d. r. and submission to earthly sheperding considered okay and widespread in the church now? or are you sort of a renegade? my respect to you either way but if you are more or less on your own i imagine the flak sucks. respect to you because i agree with you about taking responsibility for all my own decisions. i more or less try to listen to everything but when it comes time to pull the trigger on a decision i want to sink or swim on what i thought was best. if there is a great white throne judgement day for me, i want to tell god why i did what i did in everything, because that is what i thought was the best thing to do. rather than someone else told me this was the right thing for me to do. if there is a heaven and hell i defintely want to have full responsibility for where i end up. sink or swim. from my starh*le to yours, analonamous


analonamous (67.115.10.236)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:38 pm
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p.s. grey fox, i think that would be considered a post from the dimmer bulb section of the light bank. from the left side of my crimping muscle, analonamous


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 09:39 pm
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Everyone,

I started the post " The Ghost in the Machine". On the 1st post, I only wrote the 1st 3 lines. The other was added later by someone else. Just to give you a heads up.


Anonymous (66.215.8.128)
Monday, May 03, 2004 - 03:52 am
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...


Steve McGee (152.163.252.129)
Monday, May 03, 2004 - 06:49 am
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Joseph,

In your reply, you say that you disagree with my statement: "---in the past 20 years, I am amazed at the errors in teaching, and how the current pastors have turned away from emphasizing the Holy Spirit's function to reveal the Lordship of Christ---"

You then said: "---the Lordship of Jesus Christ is the primary focus, with a teaching that each member learn to hear the leading of the Holy Spirit. JRS never wanted followers or worshipers---"

I am not currently involved with TLW fellowship, I left the house of prophets in Sepulvada (actually the house was in Northridge) back in the 70's, and moved to Laguna. Then got into a fight with Blair, one of Bob McClain's elders, or whatever he was. But I never left the teaching as I knew it and learned it from JRS. I miss the worship of those days. Once I painted Brother Steven's house with help from some of the guys at the HOP, and girls at the Blix House, and had a chance to talk personally with him about his visions of the Kingdom that he received from the Lord. He talked about the Company. I'm sure you are aware.

Now, with the help of internet access, I can read about Brother Stevens again, and also observe the current leadership and pastorship from other people's experience. I have listened to Gary's tapes. And I miss the emphasis that I got from Brother Stevens. The emphasis on my personal relationship to Jesus, my strengthened faith, my direction. What I get from the new pastors (Gary) is something else. It is an emphasis of 'surrender' (not submission) to his authority. Gary's tapes just make me try to figure out what is going on with him, rather that what is going on with me and God.

With Brother Stevens, it was never a blind submission thing to him either, but rather just not being rebellious to the Lordship of Christ and His anointed Apostolic Ministry.

Also, it's disturbing to hear of the going's on with divorce and re-marrying and all the craziness. I actually called the Apostles and brethren in Washington, Iowa, after John's death and asked what was going on. They told me stories of John's disorientation, illness, and mental confusion, causing others to follow wrongly, after their own desires. Taking advantage of his condition, rather that defending the faith, they divorced and married younger girls and so forth. They warned me not to go back, but to find other churches who kept the Living Word original vision. Of course I never found out which churches those were. (??)

I live in Atlanta now. I still read my This Weeks and listen to Brother Stevens Tapes. I will never give up my faith to any other, except what I know from walking with God as a member of Brother Stevens Church.

Thanks for your positive comments about the church today, I will probably include more of the newer tapes when I order old literature from L.W.Publications. My prayers are with the faithful.

Nothing about me fixed in stone. I'll always follow God, not my own judgements.


Jon (64.12.116.66)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 05:04 am
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Bill and others,

Ok guys, I just had a major revelation about something..

Ok, so we've been discussing the concept of sheparding ad nauseum on this thread.

I just remembered that This Week called "The Right to a Higher Confirmation". Anyone remember it, there is a guy holding up a scroll with a halo around him?

That this week gives scriptural reference to the idea that if you don't bear witness to a word that someone gives you, a commission over you, or a direction from someone sheparding you, you have a right to a higher confirmation. You can go past that immediate person to the next person up in authority, and bring your case. And if you don't have a witness, you can stand your ground.

YOU CAN STAND YOUR GROUND AND EXERCISE THE RIGHT TO A HIGHER CONFIRMATION!

For instance, if I think its lame that my designated relationship is telling me to do something unreasonable or to not do something, and I disagree, not only can I speak up if I disagree, I can exercise my right to a higher confirmation, from a ministry with more authority. For instance, if it is local shepard in such and such a church, you can go to the overseeing elders of the church, or that persons shepard. The point is, that you don't have to give blanket acceptance to the word. In fact, you shouldn't. You should be weighing the word before the Lord, testing the word, praying about the word.

Its ok to have a difference of opinion if you don't bear witness. If you don't bear witness, you don't! And there is no reason to apologize for it.

I have one question: Why haven't we been exercising this right to a higher confirmation? Which leads to another question, why didn't I exercise this right when I was crossed by my shepard?

The answer is, fear. I was afraid to disagree, afraid that simple disagreement and assertiveness would be perceived as maverick, loose cannon disobedience. That I would not be loved or accepted.

This fear is completely irrational! But there is a culture that exists in our sheparding that fosters fear and not thinking for ourselves. We should reject this. Wherever this fear came from, it did not come from Christ. Perfect love casts out fear. And there is no condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus. We are bigger and more mature than that. We should be able to respectfully disagree and not get so beat up over being corrected.

If we could understand this, Gary would not have to bring words about "Correction is not Rejection", because we wouldn't fear rejection.

I think the answer to the sheparding problem is simple: We all need to get some balls!

We need to learn to hear from God, study the scriptures, grow in Him, and be led by the Spirit. Sheparding should only be for on-course correction of those who are in motion, growing in the Lord, to busy with that to be beat up over a simple correction. And if the correction is B.S., you can call it B.S.

We are too passive. We need to have a fire shut up in our bones, a desire to grow in the Lord. Bad sheparding should be like iron sharpening iron, and you should call it B.S. if you think it is. If everyone did this, the leadership would make changes.

I also just realized this: how can we expect shepards to be perfect if they have never done it before. Mistakes will always be made. Sheparding is a learning curve, just like anything else. I got wounded in my little sheparding experience, but that was because I had no balls to stand up for myself and speak my mind, the truth in love. If I had spoken up, or exercised my right to a higher confirmation, I guarantee things probably would have turned out better.

Your shepards won't know how you feel unless you tell them. The problems won't get solved until you speak up.

By the way, what I am saying is really a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal, since I am not in a LWF church or in a designated relationship per se right now, so I really don't need to be sounding off about what I perceive to be problems without willing to be a part of the solution to those problems. Who am I to judge? My experience was very unique and just one of many. But I just want everyone to learn from my experience.

I think that exercising our right to a higher confirmation would really help work through quirks in sheparding and PREVENT wounding and abuse. There is always a right to do it, but it must be exercised.

What do you guys think? Larry, Bill, Chad?


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:23 pm
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Jon, ditto!

I have been in situations where I had totally disagreed and sought confirmation. That was the reason I originally left the Anehim Church and was away for several years.

I remember going to an Sunday AM service in the twilight Anehim days and the elders blocked the door and would not let me in. I threatened to kick their ass and I walked in anyway, letting them know that I had nothing to fear or hide from. The walls were enormous.

Bob Barton was bringing the word that morning. Right in the middle of his word, Bob stopped, starting crying and said: "Joe Swallow, I love you!" That broke the ice! Bob always had a special place in my heart after that.

Later I came back through the Redlands Church and many of the brethren from Anehim came and repented to what had been done, one on one. I also repented for being angry. For me there was a deep healing. I like the concept of "having balls" and a walk with God with confirmation. That's what John taught and what Gary has been teaching us to walk in! If you listen to the word brought by Gary, he is bringing John's word and disgesting it down on a level that we can all walk in it, fulfilling John's visions. We're all human and we all make mistakes. That's why we have a right to a higher confirmation, so that we can walk in a word and know, without a doubt, that it is a word from God and not the opinion of man.


Thank you, Jon!


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:06 pm
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I think spiritual growth is very similar to natural growth. In a healthy family, you do not seek to have your forty year old children living at home, looking to you for every decision in their lives. You've done your job as a parent when they can stand on their own two feet, provide for, and make decisions for themselves. Sometimes it's difficult to watch the choices they make, and you know from your own mistakes that there could be rough water ahead. Nevertheless, some of those mistakes will become their most valuable learning experiences. Watching them succeed without your input in the minute details of their lives is very fulfilling.

I don't think getting "balls" will change the dynamics of the Walk maturity development system. There really is not an open door for disagreement except the door out of the group. I do think it is very valuable to learn to hear and obey the Lord for yourself with confirmation, not control. Healthy leadership encourages independence. Remember the Covey steps? 1. Dependence 2. Independence 3. Interdependence. The scarey part is if you let someone honestly be free, they may not choose everything you have told them to choose. The good part is that they will bring back to the table answers that you were not able to provide for them. Hopefully, you will be willing to listen and the parent/child relationship will develop into a mutual respect as adults and continue to grow. You will always be the parent, but not always the boss.


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:08 am
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Jon,

I noticed you like to use my initials alot, B.S. (lol) I agree with you. Even if Larry is right and they show you the door, do like Joe and come right back through it. I know that's easy to say, but it couldn't hurt. Some way, by the grace of God, we need break this division, where we offend one another, and they have to leave. You do have a right to a higher confirmation. I know it's hard when you give someone advice, which you think is for their own good, to get mad at them or hurt at first, but when it's all over you realize you still love them. In the This Week you were refering to, Gideon even wanted confirmation after God himself told him what to do. If God didn't have a problem with it, why should we.


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:43 am
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Bill,
I think it's important to realize that many have found an answer in not returning to the Walk. After experiencing the Walk, would you want to go back to an "old order" church that you knew in the 1960's? I know I wouldn't. That is the way I now view the Walk - it would be a giant step backwards. I think TLW has been relatively stagnet over the last twenty years compared with what is happening in other parts of the body - especially in Africa. Remember John saying that if we didn't walk in this word, God would raise up a people who would. You might want to take a look around - what is happening is not what you are being told in the Walk. I think you are being kept out of circulation and it's not healthy. I still though would like to have relationships with all the parts of the body without having to belong to that particular group. I think these divisions are man made not God made and we all need each other. I miss the people, not the doctrines.


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 02:30 am
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Larry,

Having a relationship with all the parts of the body is the key. It has never been stressed that TLW is "The Body", but only a piece. The relationships have extended outside of TLW with many. I'm grieved that you've been so isolated and cut off from what others of us in "the Walk" have known and experienced.

I've had a Bible study for over three years outside of TLWF and consisted of people from numerous churches and faiths. It has been a wonderful lesson for all involved.

The circulation is happening, even being guests of other churches which I have attended with others.

There is no division. Not now. Yes, TLWF has been in isolation and that has ended. It is for the health of the church and it is happening.

Keep your relationship open with Sayers, even if you are no longer a part of TLW. That is okay. If you need to move on, do so, with my blessing.

But it all comes down to this one fact: The Lordship of Jesus Christ in each of our lives. If that is your foundation, no matter where you go, you are dwelling in the heart of God.


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:46 am
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"Yes, TLWF has been in isolation and that has ended. It is for the health of the church and it is happening. "

Joseph,
How has that ended? What steps has TLWF been taking to relate outside its walls--particularily within the leadership?


Mike


Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:54 pm
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Mike,

Alot of wonderful circumstances have developed, beginning several years ago. First Reverend Keys in Washington, DC connected in with G&amp;M providing insight and ministry. Next came the connection with Shlomo Hizak (sp?) and Yoran Larrssen from the Jerusalem Center, bringing many from TLW to Jerusalem for a two week semenar over a three year period, involving several hundred making the trip. This opened the door to several Jewish Rabbis who have visited the Church of the Living Word in North Hills over the last few years. Bill Hart has reconnected with Gary and Marilyn and offered substantial insight and ministry to them, and has opened the door to churches in Texas and North Carolina to give TLW what it lacks in connecting outside its fringes as well as drawing upon the worship and word from TLW. Kobas Schwartz from South Africa has done the same.

There are many doors opening as well as ministry to TLWF to get us out of our isolation. We need the ministry of other churches, from those beyond our walls; and TLWF has something to offer back.

I've always felt that God has raised up different churches for different, diverse, unique functions of the Body of Christ. On the human plane we see division, denominations, etc. I think God has had a purpose beyond what we see or understand. All things work to the good of those who love God and are called to a purpose.

We seen open doors here locally in Lake Oswego.

I don't think we (TLWF) could move on into maturity without the input, connection, and ministry from those outside. And it has been happening.

Mike, I hope that helps.

Joseph


GreyFox (198.81.26.106)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 02:46 pm
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Joseph: Thanks for putting another nail in my coffin. Looks like I'll be up all night praying again. Reaching out, huh? From what I know, most of these people don't want our literature, not even from John. Reaching out? So, we're playing "let's follow the world"? Yea, I guess Jesus did the same thing-he was loved by all of religion during his time. Jesus taught us to "blend" every joint supplies-God knows it doesn't work inside the body-so let's give it a shot outside. I'm sure we can all come to a gentleman's agreement. Lovely!


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 03:26 pm
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Joseph:
"First Reverend Keys in Washington, DC connected in with G&amp;M providing insight and ministry"

Yeah--I remember Reverend Keys from the last shepherds conference I attended (in '96 I think). He chastised the shepherds for placing G &amp; M on a pedestal and being so 'serious.' Gary countered by saying that it was not a problem--that the people need to relate to each other the way they do to them.
Rev. Keys also said that--based on his own experience raising a family--that the father ministry needs to couple being authoritative with befriending the children (paraphrased, of course). He felt that many of his own kids would have had a lot less trouble in their lives (apparently some of them do jail/prison time) if he had been more flexible. After Rev. Keys left, Gary said he disagreed with this approach as well--stating that shepherds should not be friends with those they minister to (again, paraphrased)--stressing the importance of authority and submission.
Bottom line: the impression I got at the time was Rev. Keys felt uneasy about the culture promoted at TLWF. Perhaps things are different now.


Mike


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 04:54 pm
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Mike or Joe,

Who was this Reverend Keys. I've heard about him on this board.


XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:01 am
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Guys,

I attended a joint church service held at the D.C. LWF church with the LWF guys and Rev Keys and his congregation. It was very cool and very refreshing to see the mixing. We sang LWF songs and some of the songs from their hymnal, we had a big lunch afterwards and just talked.

It was great outreach. God was glorified. It was cool.


I remember John Stevens used to talk about Kobas Swart on tapes. Thats neat that he is reunited with the LWF after 20+ years!


Jon T (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:08 am
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Bill Summerville,

Sorry about all the coincidental matching of the initials there! Not my intention! Also, perhaps we should modify the statement "getting some balls" to "getting some guts". But it just doesn't sound as good! lol!


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 08:47 pm
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Jon,

You don't have to apologize about the initials. I was just kidding. I like "getting some balls", I also think it sound better. Maybe not if a person is a female. We'll use it until someone complains.


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:20 pm
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What I was wondering. Was the Rev Keys, by any chance Alan Keyes. Thanks.


Anonymous (147.72.101.2)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 10:45 am
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Bill,

Alan Keyes is a conservative Roman Catholic, so he is not the same person as Rev. Keys.


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:12 pm
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Rev. Keys did not write the Star-spangled banner, as far as I know.

Mike


analonamous (66.123.255.106)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:45 pm
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you put the rev. keys in the ignition when you want to drive your car backwords. hope this helped clear things up a bit. analonamous


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 05:10 pm
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Anonymous, Mike, Analonamous,

Well at least I know he's not Alan Keys. But at this point, who cares. I got a good laugh.


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:10 pm
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I had the priviledge of providing Bishop Keys with transportation severeal times from his hotel to the Palmer Lake facility during a shepherds conference. He's a special guy and we shared a few good laughs. He wasn't a big fan of the diet at the time (neither was I) so we made several stops at Safeway and other houses of ill repute for food suppliments. I love a good salad - along with my big juicey steak. In hindsight, this rebellion may have been the start of my demise in TLW. Hopefully, others will learn from my mistake.


Bill (4.11.192.39)
Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:16 pm
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Larry,

I was wondering, where you went to church, was it considered rebellion if you ate a steak. If so, I guess I'm one rebellious person.


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 01:38 am
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Bill,
I attended church in Palmer Lake where eating the G&amp;M diet was emphasized. You were not considered rebellious for eating other foods, (I meant that somewhat figuratively) other foods were just not served at the facility. You had to leave the premises to eat differently. (Perhaps there is also a spiritual parallel.)

Actually, I was just making light of the whole "proper" diet equals resurrection life concept. In Romans 14:17 it says, "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." Jesus also said, "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean', but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'. Paul further warned Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1-5, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocrital liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."

Of course I think it is wise to take care of your physical body. I just don't think new age vegetarianism is the true path to the kingdom. I think proper exercise is equally important to a healthy lifestyle as well as what you feed on spiritually, mentally, and emotionally.


Anonymous (64.12.116.66)
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:14 pm
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Gary &amp; Marilyn never required anyone to eat vegetarian or any other way. They specifically said time after time this is what they were being led to do and each person should eat how they wanted. Gary had a servere medical emergency a couple of years ago and the doctors told him the only reason he survived was because he was in such good physical condition when he got sick. So this way of eating help him. Most people in America are concerned about what they are eating. These days everyone is going towards a healthier lefestyle. BUT There was never ever directives given for people to eat a certain way and no one was ever asked to leave a church because of their diet. Mr Bobo is spinning a big yarn again. I think he has told these untrue stories so long he has started to believe his own fantasy. Better be careful GOD is watching you.


Anonymous (68.4.19.34)
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:56 pm
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Was anyone around when they did the talent show at the Glendale High School Auditorium? They had a song (we have a record made of the show...yes, a record, remember those?) called "Barnyard Breakdown". Does anyone remember that?


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 01:24 am
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Anonymous,
I did not say G&amp;M required anyone to eat vegetarian. I said my local church chose to follow G&amp;M's diet in the meals they served at the facility and if you wanted to eat something different than what they were serving you would have to go into town. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believe people were asked to leave the church over diet. But to imply that people were not influenced to follow G&amp;M's diet is to me spinning a big yarn. I just don't think that the focus on diet as a key to divine life is scriptural. Maybe you could share the wonderful things that have happened for you and how you are now overcoming death.


analonymous (67.115.11.24)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:17 pm
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dear larry, "better be careful god is watching you." oooooooooooooooooooh, ooga booga allah kazaam. rizzle razzle dizzle doh! oooooooooooooooooh, ooga booga shondala! peace, analonymous


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 10:57 am
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I can tell when something strikes a nerve - the personal attacks and accusations of lies start up. You might want to go back and reread what was said - I may have made a valid point. God watching me gives me strength and hope - not fear.


Bill (4.11.193.228)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 01:28 pm
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Larry,

I think people might have taken you wrong when you posted on Sun. May 9th at 10:10 pm. In hindsight, this rebellion may have been the start of my demise in TLW. I knew you weren't serious, but some people might take it wrong.


GreyFox (198.81.26.106)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:02 pm
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Hey, Larry! Looks like you've got a new follower. Bill's posting your words in red, just like Jesus! Well, all I can say now is that Bill's posts are like the peace of God; they pass all understanding.


analonymous (67.115.11.24)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 08:34 pm
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dear larry, ooga booga is not a "personal attack". allah kazaam is not a "accusation of lies". i can't remember exactly what rizzle razzle dizzle doh means although i'am certain it is niether a attack or accusation. i know that "god watching you" would not bring any discomfort to you. i was refering to the anonymous 64 12 116 66 post. that being said, i want you to sit down shut up and eat that big bowl of sprouts i made you. and i want you to like them dammit! peace analonymous


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Friday, May 14, 2004 - 01:15 am
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Analonymous,
Sorry for the misunderstanding - I was refering to the Anonymous post, not to yours. I thought what you said was funny. I've eaten enough sprouts - they make me blow chunks. About thirty years ago, I lived on just sprouts and distilled water for several months. I'm 6'2" and weighed 125 lbs. - not a pretty sight. (I'm over 200 lbs. now) I was a vegetarian for several years as well as living off wild foods.

I've tried many things with diet and am convinced it is not a vital key to the kingdom. It shouldn't be too much longer before TLWF figures that out and God changes his mind about foods. Some of my weird hippy friends would have experienced divine health years ago if diet was the answer. I think I was closer to death than life. Sorry, you can have my sprouts - but thanks for the offer - I'll stick with my evil steak (which has not been sacrificed to idols) and potato (with a few veggies of course).

Bill,
I was not being serious - just trying to evaluate my old nature and determine the root of the real reason I left the walk. I realize now that there is no possible way I could sincerely want to walk with God without being a part of TLWF since they are the only true followers of Jesus. (Just for clarification - I'm not being serious.)

GreyFox,
Thanks for the keen observation. For a few moments, I thought I was once again Christ in the flesh. I can hear the throngs now. "Crucify him! Death to the blowout!"
Take care.


analonymous (67.115.11.24)
Friday, May 14, 2004 - 02:45 am
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dear larry, i'm sorry for the misunderstanding to. larry, bill, grey fox, what the heck, everyone gather around for a big group hug! ummmmm i'm feeling it, are you? hey! who did that reach around? that's not right, no cyber gooseing! one of you jokers sure know how to ruin a very special moment. peace, analonymous


XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 03:10 am
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Hi Everyone,

First off, I’d like to say how much I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading all of your posts. Not only are they very interesting (and somewhat entertaining), they have helped me realize that other people have gone through the same process of questioning/searching/thinking that I’ve gone through and it has been refreshing and reassuring. I want to say thank you to everyone who has posted.

I’ve been thinking a lot and have come to the conclusion that although posting and reading on this website has been therapeutic and healing to all of us, perhaps it is not the best forum for discussing the topics that are being discussed. The reason I think this is because the other day I re-read every one of my posts, and realized that some bitterness, anger, and attack was coming through in some of them. It was good for me to vent, and has made me feel more healed than ever from past wounds, but me pointing out perceived problems or shortcomings in the church on the world wide web really does nothing for me, because I already know how I feel about them, and its not helping the Living Word Fellowship which has been making a concerted and sincere effort to reach out into the Christian community over the last several years. I would not want something I say to hinder in the slightest bit that progress.

Secondly, I realized that the source of a lot of my generalized anger came from one sheparding experience that I perceived as bad, but someone else may have perceived to be good for me. There were other variables in my situation aside from the sheparding that I had not considered previously. I realized that for me to take this one perceived bad experience out of my ten years of very positive experiences in the Living Word Fellowship and use it to make a critique really isn’t doing myself or the Living Word Fellowship justice.

Third, I’ve realized that I really don’t have a place to criticize anything about the LWF unless I am a part of a local church. Until then, I am like one of those people who always moan and groan about politics but never register to vote in elections or become involved in a part of the solution to what they perceive to be problems.

Therefore, I will not criticize anything about the church anymore on this board, as long as I currently attend another church outside of the Fellowship and live away from the churches. I’ve been thinking about the scripture “if any man has a problem with his neighbor, he needs to go to the neighbor in private and resolve the problem”. I think simple, honest, candid, bold communication between parties will go a long way in resolving issues that arise in the churches, rather than me or anyone else sounding off on the world wide web.

I would not be who I am today if it were not for the close relationships I developed, the mentoring (sheparding) I had, the worship I experienced, the training and teaching in the scriptures, and the discipline I acquired while being a part of the Living Word Fellowship. I am a much better person for it. I take pride in that fact. And the fruit of my own life today is testament to how my experience in TLWF planted many seeds that are now bearing fruit. The fruit being the fulfillment of words I had had spoken over me, and my ability to bless and minister to many different people in many ways, and my knowledge of the scriptures. Alot of it came from impartation by people in the LWF.

The Living Word Fellowship has a uniqueness that I have not appreciated among any other Christian fellowship in my many years of trying different churches and fellowshipping with other Christians. I am proud of my unique heritage in this movement.

The Body of Christ needs what the Living Word Fellowship has. I am cognizant of the fact that there has been a lot of water under the bridge, but today is a new day. I think the leadership is more open than ever to new ideas and lines of communication with the rest of the Church.

All Christians need each other in this world. I think those currently in and out of the LWF are really all on the same side. We are all trying to walk with God. The world needs the love and faith of all of us, working together, not against each other. And my family and I need all of your prayer and support as well.

To all members of the Living Word Fellowship, past and present, involved and not involved, who know me and my family and have been reading my posts, I love you guys a lot! I really do. And if we don’t know each other, I hope to meet you sometime. I hope you and your families are doing great. You guys are on my heart all the time. I pray for you and think about you every day. I look forward to seeing and talking to you all in the future. I’m sorry if any of my critical comments offended anybody, I am just trying to express myself somewhat imperfectly. Even if you disagree, you have to admit the posts are very interesting to read, and they make good points! (e.g., you had to read them all to finally get to this one!) Perhaps things were said that needed to be said somehow, some way, and this is where they found their place.

I would like to apologize for using specific people’s names in my posts without their prior consent, although my doing so demonstrated how much respect I have for all of you. In the future I will not do that, since everyone has a right to privacy that we should respect.

No one has any control over what is posted on this discussion board, and I respect what everyone has to say, good or bad, as long as we do it in a respectful manner. I hope to lead by example by doing this.

By the way: I was contacted by some friends in the LWF about my posting on this board, and it was more of an inquiry as to how I was doing, and a suggestion that I should pray about it, than a suggestion to stop. So, this post was constructed as an independent thought by me as a result of thinking about it and praying about it for about a week, in case anyone was wondering. i.e. no pressure was put on me to stop posting critiques, it is a decision I came to independently after a week of thinking about.

Also, I know that if you go back and read all of my posts, it might seem as if I am doing a 180 in my attitude towards the LWF with this post. I am! I realize that we are all Christians, on the same side, who need each others love and support. The focus should not be quibbling about doctrine (everyone knows my opinions on that ad naseum!). The focus should be on glorifying Jesus Christ together and being a support to one another. We agree on that always.

It has been terrific to be contacted via email from friends in the LWF that have read these threads. If anyone ever wants to talk about anything, just send me an email. I like hearing from you and appreciate your feedback as well. Plus, I want to know what everyone is up to these days!


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:39 pm
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Hey Jon:

I've appreciated your posts since (I believe) they were born out of a desire for understanding--expressing your thought processes--and not simply to vent bitterness or cause ill will to those you've known &amp; loved. You don't impress me as someone looking to cause trouble. Nonetheless, I wish you the best. BTW, should you be in need of an irrelevant, inappropriate joke (or two) feel free to contact me by email. I'll see what I can muster up.


Mike


unknown (68.119.47.6)
Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 08:12 pm
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i dont know the church or doctrine you are talking about i am a member of a HOLINESS CHURCH i beleive in speaking with tongues healings and the GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:30 am
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Just a heads up to my friends on this board: I maybe absent for awhile since I'm planning to post some messages on 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba'--only because I like its name. Actually, my Mom revealed recently that I uttered something similar as my first words (I learned 'Mom' and 'Dad' a few months later--just after 'no')--so I'm going to check it out and hopefully uncover some personal truth.


Mike Baba


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:31 am
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maybe=may be


analonymous (66.123.255.62)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:19 pm
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dear mike, thanks for staying "connected". analonymous


analonymous (66.123.255.62)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:55 pm
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dear mike, i have been visiting the "church of the subgenius" message board under the religous cults and sects heading. it looks like a fun group. the first post has a link to it's website. not much info but lots of pictures! i also have been into the nigerian student cults message board. the "axe is good but lost d vision now ban is d best" thread is my favorite! i post under the name of ibmbatota. well i just wanted to touch base and let you know what i have been up to. peace, analonymous


Anonymous (66.123.255.105)
Friday, July 02, 2004 - 10:56 am
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I'm wondering if anybody who has left the body (TLWF) &amp; NOT joined another church? Why? or Why should you join a different one?


Churchless (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 02:54 pm
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I haven't missed being a part of TLWF, nor have I felt a need to seek out another church as a replacement (or upgrade). I echo CMP's comment that the conditioning of being intensely involved in something that basically amounted to mind-control has sort of negatively tainted my perception of Christianity as a whole. It's not fair, but it's how it is. Then factor in that I'm sort of an independent sort to begin with and the odds of me joining another fellowship in the near future becomes even more remote. It's not that I lack opportunity. In my line of work I come across many Christians--most very nice, uplifting people--that invite me to their particular church and I haven't taken any of them up yet. One of them was a teleevangelist--perhaps the only one I've know who didn't strike me as ridiculously insincere--and I rebuffed his efforts at the time.
I suppose if Jesus, along with the Father and Holy spirit, appeared to me personally and made one of those offers I couldn't refuse--I would probably change my ways. But for now it's feels like asking someone that was released from a
long-term poisonous marriage to start seriously dating again.
That said, I do appreciate the posts of those that are finding God/fellowship in other Christian churches (Alina, Larry B., Elizabeth, Donna etc.). My post is to no way discredit their positive experiences...I'm confident they're valid. I'm just not there yet.

Mike Jones


P.S. As an aside, my first ministry from JRS (in '78) was noting the fact that I was a free-lance spirit--which carried a very negative connotation in the walk. He complemented my wife to be as being a 'submissive spirit' --maybe in part because she she worked endless hrs. for no pay at a certain KD business at the time.
Anyway, we are celebrating independence day this weekend--so it's not all bad.

PPS: If there was a new church that gave one of those Nextel walkie-talkie phones out to new congregants, I might join. I hate to be so crass, but those phones are IMPORTANT TO ME!


donna (205.188.117.20)
Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 02:07 am
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I have not joined another church since finally leaving TLWF in the mid-90's (sorry to burst your bubble Mike Jones!) In fact, just about the only time I step into a church is for a wedding or a funeral and that's about once per year. I have however, gone with one of my friends to Catholic mass a couple of times during this past Lenton season just to see what the big hoopla was about. I'm surprised the church didn't catch on fire-what with my rebellious ways!

Anyhow, the main reason I have not joined a church or go regularly to church is because I don't feel the need. I ABSOLUTELY believe that one does not have to go or join a church to profess his/her faith in God or any other type of organized religion. I live in the (Southern Baptist) Bible Belt region; if there's not a bank or CVS or Eckerd drugstore on the corner, there's bound to be a church!!! Or I can just turn on the TV and flip channels just about anytime and day of the week to catch my fill. My personal favorite time is Sunday morning--it's a regular buffet-Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, non-denominational, etc. It is quite apparent to me who the practicing religious are and those who practice on Sundays or special holidays-talk about your hypocrits!

I have many friends who invite me on a regular basis to attend service with them and I have gone once or twice. But after my years of growing up in the Walk and it's brain-washing, experiences and isolation of it being the "chosen" walk with God, I am very leary of participating in organized religion of any type, at any committment level. I guess I am burned-out and gun-shy so to speak. I have long believed that church participation is not an indicator of how you function spiritually or your committment to your faith. And doesn't the Bible quote somewhere that "...if two or more are gathered in his name..." you are having a meeting with God or something like that.

I have learned more about different religious beliefs and myself as a spiritual person by just simply asking my friends questions about their religious traditions, practices, holidays, rituals, etc. I have found that there are many similarities in beliefs and practices and that no "one" religion is better than another. I have two friends who are very religious and of different religions. My one friend and her husband are teachers and principal of their church's school/home-school programs. Everything about their life is wrapped up in their level of involvement in their church--they even live on the church property, about 50 yards from their pastor's house, the church building, and the school--in different directions. (And no, they're not a part of the Walk, Shiloh, or anything else associated with TLWF!) My other friend has a sister who is becoming a preacher/minister. Both friends have told me separately, that just by talking to me ocassionally about religious affairs and interacting with them, it is refreshing for them and uplifting. They look at it from the perspective that they are able to "witness" to someone (which meets their needs for spiritual fulfillment) and at the same time respect my religious values, which is non-threatening and not overbearing. Plus, they always tell me in a joking manner, one day I'll come around.

So to address anonymous' question about why or why not join another church--I think for me--I am not seeking a group, a specific person, or a building to validate my spirituality and my level of committment to God. I think it is up to each individual to determine their own spiriual and committment levels and if you want someone to validate you, join a church!


Mike (68.8.149.153)
Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 01:11 pm
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Donna:
"So to address anonymous' question about why or why not join another church--I think for me--I am not seeking a group, a specific person, or a building to validate my spirituality and my level of committment to God."

So there's no "Church of the Blessed Donna" on the horizon? Man, am I disappointed!


Mike


P.S. sorry for the error of including you with those that have begun attending other churches since leaving TLWF. From now on I will not only read all these posts, but note who's writing them.


Anonymous (66.123.255.105)
Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 09:55 pm
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Thanks for responding to my question regarding joining another church--I have enjoyed reading the answers--I myself have not even gone looking for a church--only step foot in ones for weddings, funerals, baptisms &amp; 1st communions. That's enough for me. Also, after going to 3+ services a week for 25 years, living at Shiloh, working in a KD business for slave wages--I figure I've gone to church enough!!


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:43 am
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"Also, after going to 3+ services a week for 25 years, living at Shiloh, working in a KD business for slave wages--I figure I've gone to church enough!"

You got paid for working in a KD business? Man, some people were sure pampered!
As far as the service thing went, the most extreme schedule I was subjected to was when I was in South Gate during the time Statton pastored (early 90's). I think for a time we were trying to mimick JRS's schedule (like 7 services a week)... On the bright side, anything that had Statton involved was always interesting. In spite of his crazy service obsession, I would say the few yrs. I had with him (&amp; Jeff Pfeiffer) were the only consistently enjoyable time I had at TLWF. There was actually laughter...most of it, I think, generated from trying so f**#ing (D. Cheney word) hard to make things work--in an unworkable system.

Mike


Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:40 pm
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Hey Mike,
I think Dan's crazy service obsession originated in Des Moines. We had services Sunday AM and PM, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday AM and PM as well as intercession M-F AM and PM. In between that there was the kingdom school, co-op, choir, high school and college programs, workdays etc.

I sure loved and appreciated Dan. He was a bright spot in my Walk memories and I am thankful for the times I shared with him. It was very sad to hear he had passed away. His family were all very special to me as well.


Don Gimble (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 01:42 pm
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Mike Jones I would like to talk to you. I am at dgimble@yahoo.com I just want to say hi and talk off line since I know you from the many visits you and your wife made to Shepherd conferences. Not to bitch or moan but just to say how much i appreciate hearing your comments during that time even though G of G and M may not have.


Anonymous (204.156.7.47)
Friday, July 23, 2004 - 04:17 pm
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JT I remember when you tried to come back to Shiloh. You had to hang around with Steve and Kathy. They only liked people that they thought were perfect and trouble free. I guess they were mistaken.


Anonymous (204.156.7.47)
Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:18 am
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Other skills TLWF has helped hundred of kids and adults alike add to their resumes once they leave the divine way. Professional Iowa Corn Picker, Speaker of Death Prayers (to individuals and to companies competing against their Kingdom Business),snow shoveler, garbage collector, saw mill safety engineer (able to count to by sevens using both hands),vegetable chopper, nut cracker, Preparer of food for any self professing cult leader, Kingdom School teacher working below minimum wage or free as long as they are in charge of corporal punishment, creative finance, tomato canner and carp catcher.


Lael (149.174.164.83)
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:21 pm
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Anonymous. Why be anonymous is my first question. But are you talking about steve and kathy lafaurie? You couldn't have said it any better regarding how they choose to accept people. It's disgusting and quite tragic how much "power"/spiritual leadership" they have over people. They are the epitomy of power trip


Anyone out there who lived in the building at Shiloh during 1990, or who wants to know what really went on, or lets talk boot camp with Phil Forbes, just for kicks


Lael


Anonymous (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 09:13 am
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Leal

Yes I am talking about the same S and K LaF. No one could live up to their religious expectations. Not even their precious little "princess'" of daughters. Noticve how they did not stay around. I was there when G&amp;M kicked their own daughter out for being a lesbian. I was there for the boot camp era and the after school program. Remember that?? I am sure you did because all three of you,your sister and brother(R and J) were in it too. And S McD was so rude and mean, so was Bob. Whatever happened to Bob?? One day he was just out completely and just coming to church and sitting in a regular row. How is R's oldest bot doing?


Donny (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 09:14 am
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I am wondering if we could all write to this board since there are five of them and it is hard to check all five everytime I want to respond.


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:07 am
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Donny:
Well, there's actually six (if you include the no.homo board)--but I get your point. At least when you first check in you have a listing of all the boards and the most recent activity. That makes it somewhat easier.


Mike


P.S. I think one of my rabbits could be a lesbian. I'm getting rid of it today.


Donny (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:15 am
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Thanks Mike
I did not realize it relists the latest activities to the top of the board. How un-observant of me. I must not have had "my spirit in my shoes."


Alina Hope (4.242.189.208)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:05 pm
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Donny, something else that helps is this. If you go to factnet's homepage and click on discussions then click on last day or last week it will show you exactly who has posted and a little blurb of what they wrote! I hope that helps, it sure helps me!


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 08:24 pm
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"I did not realize it relists the latest activities to the top of the board. How un-observant of me. I must not have had "my spirit in my shoes." "


Donny,
Don't be so hard on yourself. Chances are your spirit was only a few inches above your shoes, and you just needed a slight adjustment. When I first came to factnet my spirit was somewhere above my kneecaps--perhaps even in the thigh area. I wasn't even aware that there was more than one TLWF board. But I eventually made the transition due to the grace of God, and now I scan each board in order of most recent post.


Mike
mature factnetter


Lael (205.188.117.20)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:32 pm
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Anonymous who spelled my name wrong. Ha Ha

by evaluating the information you chose to share, I would say you are one of "us" The 19? of us who lived in the building in 1990 when the McDonalds and Bob directed us (if that's what you want to call it). You know that my sister has a boy, well actually three, and you were around when G&amp;M gave the smak down to their own daughter, and you know about Eunice &amp; Leah. I would have to quess you are a Beatty or Mehaffey. John Mark, is that you preaching from on top of the moutains in Colorado?

Lets go my process of elimination.
1. Milia Perry
2. Jessica Timinski
3. Jessica Lindy
4. Titus Yoder
5. Katie Stewart
6-12 Beatty's
13-15 Mehaffey's
16-19 White's

Help me out here. You know I'm close

Lael


Boot Camp Boy (204.156.7.47)
Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:27 am
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Lael I am still waiting to hear what happened to Bob. One day he was King of the After School program and then a year later when I dropped in for a visit he was like scum sitting at the back of the church. I think he and Sarah have two kids now, right?


Lael (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 07:35 pm
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Boot camp boy, but really you are not a boy anymore, you are Titus. Am I right?

I don't know what exactly happen to Bob by the other elders from the church. I'm sure the same as Leilani when she left for awhile after running yasp, or the Schermahorn's, or marti and kevin, well just marti. When they decide to lay the smack down on someone, they show no mercy. What about poor MaryAnn Boney too.

What I currently know is that Bob is doing very well. Yes they have two daughters. Bob does travel a ton for his job, but I he still goes to Shiloh.


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:23 pm
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Lael:
"What about poor MaryAnn Boney too."


What about her?


Mike


Josh W. - formerly TGIA (209.78.80.254)
Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:51 am
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What are you guys talking about with regards to the LaFauries? I know them to be very loving.


Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:29 am
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Damn! Another board I haven't been checking at all! What the.....

Boot camp. Haha. The boot camp guys that became the shining beacons that we were all supposed to be so damned impressed by. That's how YASP started, I'm sure.

Stand in line.

Where are we going?

It doesn't matter. Stand in line.

OK

Pull weeds.

Don't sleep.

Eat crap food.

Go see Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

...... 14 years later, I'm still trying to catch up on sleep from that first YASP session.

Thanks, Boot Camp Boy.

CMP


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:44 am
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CMP:
Don't forget to check out the two new discussion boards dealing with Yasp started last week:
'Single File to Nowhere'
'Quit looking at that girl'
I'm going to hold off starting 'Spirit in Your Shoes' since it seems (at least to me) that there are too many boards already.


Mike


Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:30 pm
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Yeah Mike, we really should consolidate the boards.... maybe

'I still can't relate to anybody of the opposite sex because they scare me and now I question everything I do because I'm no longer "covered" because I dont have a Revelation so you should keep praying that I will like This Weeks and Crummy Food as much as you do and maybe I'll start checking with my DR before I blow my nose but I lost my Franklin Planner so I can't keep track of all the message boards so this is the one single message board'

What do you think?

CMP


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:18 pm
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CMP,
The title of the consolidated board seems a little long, but that's just my opinion and I haven't really run it by my DR yet, so I can't really say. Once my DR pays his phone bill, I'll be able to reach him easier and get confirmation and get right back to you (provided I've paid my DSL bill).
Anyway, perhaps the acronym: ISCRTAOTOSBTSMANIQEIDBINLCBIDHARSYSKPTIWLTWACFAMAY DAMISCWMDRB etc. would work. It seems a little less cumbersome than your title. I'm not saying I'm right, because this opinion could very well be straight from my adamic nature, and again that's why I must mention that I plan to run it by my DR, as soon as his phone gets reconnected.
But so far I feel real good about my idea.


Mike


analonymous (67.115.8.224)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:22 pm
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could we all meet at the single file to nowhere message board? or would we be unable to find each other because we were all nowhere? i'm beginning to lose my sense of comfort and am getting a little scared thinking about that. will some one please come help talk me down out of this?

analponderous?


serving the tool (4.8.230.53)
Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 07:46 pm
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"i'm beginning to lose my sense of comfort and am getting a little scared thinking about that. will some one please come help talk me down out of this?"

The only comfort I can offer you is the This Week: 'Is God my Tool or my Boss?' I know the title might seem redundant (and possibly offensive), but I think it will help you in your present situation. In fact, I know it will help you. Read it.

STT


Whoa Dude (68.221.13.26)
Monday, August 09, 2004 - 12:01 pm
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Want to play 20 questions? Go to Factnet/Families &amp; Relationships/Subtopic "Shiloh Kalona Iowa Cult.


MischaSafdie (149.174.164.83)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:24 am
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Someone wanted to know what JRS views on some political issues were. Back when I was in "The Walk" John very openly expressed his views both publically in church and in private. He very openly suggested how we should and should not vote. He had lots of wisdom on these issues I think, so I will state what I remember:

1. JRS was a big supporter of Ronald Reagan. He liked him alot and referred to him as a Godly President. Yes...he did register to vote and was a registered Republican. Like many Christians, I was very conservative right on issues.

2. JRS was very positive about the Pope we still have sitting in Rome today. While ne never said much about the Catholic church in general, he did say that this Pope we have would open the door for Catholics to be spirit-filled and guided butr after he was gone that the door for the Catholics in this area would slam shut.

3. JRS did not care at all for the Kennedy's. I had heard...after the fact...that he had the Body pray for the deaths of both JFK and Bobby Kennedy. I know this to be true because when I was in the Walk one night in South Gate he spoke about it in referring to the power of creative prophesy and he brought the matter up stating something to the effect that "when we prayed and prophesied in those matters, we all know what happened. He believed that JFK, Bobby Kennedy (the entire Kennedy family) the Rockafellers, Henry Kissinger were all Nephilem. He also mentioned certain celebrities like Tom Jones, Engelbert Humperdink, the lead singer of the doors (who he had personal dealings with and once ministered to I think in South Gate...his girlfriend was a member of the Walk at the time)..
...all as being Nephilem.

4. JRS was very into politics and believed most of our Presidents were members of what I think was the CFR and Trilateral commision...at least one of those groups...but I cannot recall which one. He often spoke though about his belief that one of these groups was centered around a few wealthy business people who were Nephilem and who would gain world control eventually opening the door for the antichrist and then attempt through that person and group to destroy mankind.

5. One interesting bit of information some of you may not know was the JRS was an avid believer in UFOs. In one service in South Gate one night he talked about them and said that they were Nephilem. He said that they were based underground and that there were large bases underground in Brazil. I cannot recall whether he actually saw them or not but it seems like he had some type of first hand or very reliable info on that.

6. Another thing you may not know about JRS that I personally heard him talk about was that he once had some type of friendship relationship with a woman who was a practicing witch. He said that he had tried to minister to her and convert her into being a Christian but that in the end, she rebelled and tried to kill him by using witchcraft and spells against him. He said that before this happened, he had questioned her and learned alot about the occult and witchcraft based on what she had told him. So, he explained that when she tried to use spells against him, he knew how to "fight her" and that in the end, it boomeranged back on her and she was eventually killed by way of some illness. He used to say that in order to fight the occult, you had to understand how it worked.....something I never really totally agreed with and now believe was wrong totally. I think if you know the Lord and walk with Him, invoke His blood and the power in His name...that is all you need. No need to fight black magic with white magic of your own.

Anyway, I hope this answers some questions and also opens the door for some of you to comment and ask more. I am sure others who knew JRS personally and attended some of the services may have heard or may remember some of these things. The things I am writing about, I have personal knowledge of. During the time I was in the Walk, I often talked to JRS in a group and alone...sometimes in private and other times on the telephone. But those things I am writing about were not discussed. The things I have outlined were all very well known by members at the time..at least most members...and JRS spoke openly about them in services at times.

Take care.

Mischa S. Safdie'


Anonymous (67.19.163.20)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:51 am
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Mischa: Nice post, but don't you think you are posting a little too much information?

You aren't so clean yourself. You wouldn't want some know-it-all posting your private history regarding Marlene, would you? About the abuse?


Alina Hope (4.242.186.6)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:07 pm
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Mischa, growing up in the walk, I remember having knowlegde of those things. One summer in YASP when the new library opened at Shiloh we were all told to write down random questions we had like "are there UFO's?" or "Where did dinosaurs come from?" Then we researched what JRS said about all of those things.

The only point you made that I didn't know about was the Pope.

Great post! By the way, does anyone know the rules for a tax exempt organization? I was under the impression that as soon as someone (like a pastor) in a tax exempt organization told people how to vote it would have it's exemption revoked.

Mischa, I read your post on the Shiloh board. I will miss your posts there. God bless you!


Anonymous (69.44.61.197)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:15 pm
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Alina THE RAPE EXPERT

You seem to be hitting all the boards today. When do you have the time to teach your rape classes?

By using your name, how do the people in your social circle feel about your posts?


Mike (4.8.230.53)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:37 pm
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And you're following her around, which is quite sick. I would inform your social circle--if you had one.


Mike


MischaSafdie (152.163.253.102)
Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 02:11 am
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Anon67: What abuse? And by using my ex-wife's name...that is public record...or maybe you know me? Anyway we had a good marriage for the time it lasted (27 years) and fortunately "abuse" was something all to prevalent in the Walk but something that was never a part of our own lives, thankfully. Nice try anyway. You sound like Mel Baily. Are you? If so, you should know...(need I say more?) Strange post. The Lord Jesus knows the answer to that one though so if the shoe fits wear it and if not, disregard it. Anyway, the info I posted about some things regarding JRS were in response to a question asked and they are pretty much common knowledge to anyone who was there back in those days or who knew him.

Hey Mike: That "This Is Not Me" take was "FUNNY"! LOL I think it was referring to that fiasco where someone was using my computer...which was not too funny at the time really...but when I read your posts, it had me cracking up... "Bob S."

Alina: Thanks for the compliments.


Anonymous (66.98.168.100)
Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:07 pm
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MischaSafdie:

I left out "verbal". Anyway, alot of the stuff you posted isn't common knowledge, especially to the Idiot Alina and her comment about taxes.

Also, you know damm well that John didn't say, "Guess what, I prayed for Kennedy's death". If he did talk to you, what were his EXACT
words?

Why would he tell you, you weren't around at the time. Someone told you that he prayed for death. He didn't. I was there at the Tues. morning prayer meeting along with Bro. Wilson.


Josh W. (209.78.80.254)
Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 02:42 am
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To Chad Molina -

I don't know if you still read the boards, but if you do, I wanted you to know something.

I really appreciate something you once did for me the one visit I had to Shiloh. It was one summer, and you were there at the same time. We (myself, you, and a bunch of others) were out weeding the (god-damned) thorn bushes. Apparently, a bunch of brand new shovels had just been purchased, and a lecture was given out to be careful not to break them, as they were brand new.

SO...what do I do, but of course, break one almost immediately. I felt real poopy, and a couple of guys were sort of laughing and asked "who did it".

Without missing a beat, you looked at them and said "does it matter?"

What you did really made me feel better, like someone really cared. I was 14, and what you did has stayed with me to this day - like no matter what, there are caring people from this church (even though I don't think you go anymore, nor do I).

I've always felt indebted to you for that show of kindness. I didn't realize until recently that the "Chad" writing on the earlier posts was you! I've not seen any comments from you in the last couple of months, but I hope you "check in" from time to time, because I wanted to know how much I appreciated what you did (even though this is somewhat of a public area, hehe).

Even though the Bakersfield AND Fresno churches have both closed down, you may remember me from a snow trip the two churches went on maybe 12-13 years ago (or, maybe you don't). You came over to the apartment I shared with a brother in the church, and we all watched the movie "Dutch" starring Ed Oneal. Do you remember that?

I remember you as always a really cool guy. I once saw you at a feast service in LA, and ran up to you and gave you a big hug - I laugh now because I remember at the time, you looked at me like "who the f*ck are you dude?" Hehe. You couldn't have realized that even then, I remembered what you did from that day at Shiloh.

I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated what you did, and I hope you are well and happy and having a good life. If you ever read this, please feel free to write in, and maybe I can get your email address (or give you mine) and we can catch up.


looking for shovel breaker (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:36 am
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This is something that ultimately led to my leaving TLWF in a state of bitterness, which I still attempting to recover from. I purchased some new shovels out of my own savings account, lent it to a Shiloh crew, and the FIRST day one of them was broken to bits by a still unidentified kid whose spirit was 'over there.' I confronted everyone out in the field (even though veins were popping in my neck, I believe I maintained self-control) and yet to this day I have no GD idea who did it. I left the church that night, and immediately upped my alcohol intake to about .25 level per day. I went through 5 years of listening to nothing but Metallica interspersed with a few Megadeth songs in a vain effort to mellow out. Anyway, I decided yesterday that it's time to put the incident behind me once and for all. I'm going to start eating some food along with my alcohol. In other words, I'm taking baby steps toward a new day.
But if I ever catch the dude that broke my shovel, I'm not going to sing 'Love so Sweet' to him.

John Gray


Josh W. (209.78.80.254)
Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:31 pm
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LOL LOL LOL. Too funny Mike.


MischaSafdie (198.81.26.106)
Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 02:46 am
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Hi Anon66: Hi. :-) If you would like, hit me with an email privately so I will know who you are...if we know one another. Anyway, regarding your post...You are correct. JRS never told me he prayed for Kennedy's death and it is true that I would not have been there in 63 when he died. I was just a kid then. To clarify, when I was in The Walk I had always heard rumor of it from others. However, one night during a South Gate church meeting..long after the fact...JRS actually referred to those prayers; one involving JFK and the other his brother Bobby. I cannot remember what prompted it to be brought up from the pulpit but what JRS was referring to was the power of prophecy and touching not God's annointed, I believe. He got into the politics discussions and then said something to the effect that sometimes God requires that we pray against situations and people...and that if they are attached to a Nephilim spirit, then many times God's judgement will take them along with that spirit. He went on to say that we have had to pray for the destruction of the flesh of certain men in high places before and we know what the end result of that was. In response one of the other brothers took the pulpit and referred to the Kennedys and Rockafellers while John stood by and agreed but said nothing more about it. I would also mention to you that during the time I was in The Walk and before JRS departed, I had a very good relationship with him. We spoke many times. However, it is true, as you are suggesting, that some of the information I obtained was secondhand info, albeit from reliable sources who would have no reason or motive to lie and who would have known. As an investigator who often questions and interviews people, in thinking back about alot of that, I would have to say that I feel the sources I spoke with were for the most part very reliable and certainly had nothing but love for JRS. I can see your desire to protect JRS integrity and reputation in some of your other posts and to be honest with you, I am with you in that myself. John was good to me and I do feel he was on to something very special in the Lord at one point. However, I do also feel that for some reason things took a turn the wrong direction right before he passed away...possibly it was medical related as far as how JRS acted and thought then...but I do not know for sure. Today, it appears TLW is still on the wrong track or a far cry from what JRS had once envisioned it to be. Sorry if in my post I said anything that confused you.

To Mike: I wanted to tell you that I never knew Gary was the kind of person who would threaten to hit someone like your wife and do what he did to you and your family. Had he said something like that to me in a service, I might have walked right up onto the platform and decked him in front of everyone...no hesitation...and we would have seen just how much of a "tough guy" he really was. I could have done it and I doubt he would have been able to do too much about it. But that was not my spirit at the time and I did not hear anything like that from him. Someone like that..if he did what you said he did...and I believe you....could never have my respect and now that I know, my views of Mr. Hargrave have changed. Thanks for mentioning it ...and a dose of reality...and I am sorry for you and your wife. That had to be a very terrible and humiliating experience, Mike.

Anon67: I had a question. You mentioned on this board or another that you were part of the Newport Church. I had many friends there..Bob McLain, Blair, I knew John Navelesi...I once seriously dated a wonderful and really beautful girl by the name of Michelle Ziegler. Did you know her? If so, do you know what ever happened to her? I really loved her alot but that is another story...let's just say "Shepharding" intervened and haled the relationship...lol.

To someone who wanted to know if anyone worked at "Impact". Yes, I did for awhile. It was "interesting". The best thing that came out of it was I met this nice girl from the Newport Church and we dated for awhile....however that ended sadly in that we seemed to be doing ok and loved one another but then "the brothers stepped in and berated me for being too in love and wanting to talk to her in my free time."...lol. They put us on a submission trip of not talking to one another at all and only seeing one another at services once a week. She wanted to be obedient and so she submitted. I did not want to submit because I loved her...so I was threatened with the consequences of being rebellious unless I did submit. Anyway, in short, her submission caused me to have to submit and in the end, our relationship kind of faded away into the sunset...lol

To Leal: Are you Ed and Linda White's daughter? It seems I remember you in South Gate as a baby. You used to play with my daughter, "Michelle" alot. The Beattys always babysat for us and so my daughter was practically raised with their kids too during the first 2-3 years of her life.

To Gary's Daughter, "Dawn". I never knew you but your sincere post on either this or one of the other sites was heartfelt. I never knew my biological father either and in the end it was probably best that way. It is sad though to me that a man who could sit there with Marilyn and preach so many messages on "fatherhood"...including several that someone from TLW put on a couple of these boards...that such a person could be such a terrible example of what a father should be to his own child himself. It seems like hypocrisy. Considering the problems he and Marilyn have apprently had with "his new kids by her"...you didn't miss much anyway and are lucky to have moved on. Your mom, "Donna" would not remember me because we just spoke briefly...hi and bye...at times. But it sounds like she did a good job raising you if you are a Christian now as you say...after all of that...and that she too was able to move on with her life. My oh my...time sure goes by fast. I wish you the best.

MSPI007SI@aol.com


Donald Duck (81.118.4.7)
Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:27 pm
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Sharia

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FACTNet Message Board: Religious Cults and Sects: Islamic Fundamentalism: Sharia
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Anonymous
Monday, March 25, 2002 - 04:22 pm
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SOKOTO, Federation of Nigeria - A Nigerian mother who had been sentenced to die by stoning was freed [this] Monday - but almost immediately afterwards officials revealed another woman has received the same sentence.

The case of 35-year-old Safiya Hussaini Tungar-Tudu, who was condemned to death by a sharia court for adultery, had sparked international outrage.

.......

Fearing international isolation, Nigeria's government ordered states applying the strict Islamic sharia law last week to modify harsh sanctions such as stoning to death for adulterers and the severing of hands for theft.

.........

"The import of the ruling is that it will now dawn on the sharia states that they cannot implement the system in isolation," said Segun Jegede of the Campaign for Democracy and Human Rights, based in the southwestern city of Lagos.

.......


Nigerian Sharia Court Frees Woman in Stoning Case

The Sharia - Saudi Style - under Scrutiny in Nigeria

Sharia: the Politics of Control [Nigeria]

SHARI'AH PENAL CODE LAW ZAMFARA STATE OF NIGERIA (I)

SHARI'AH PENAL CODE LAW ZAMFARA STATE OF NIGERIA (II)

NIGERIA - Time for justice and accountability Amnesty International.

Political map of Federal Nigeria

Sharia States in Federal Nigeria


Anonymous
Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:00 pm
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Sentenced to death by stoning

"Amina Lawal was sentenced to death by stoning by a Regional Court in Katsina State, Nigeria for having a child outside marriage. Her sentence was announced on 23 March 2002.

This will entail burying Amina up to her waist and stoning her until she is dead.

The sentence on Ms Lawal has provoked a world-wide wave of shock and revulsion. There is general disbelief that Nigerian women, living in a democracy, could be sentenced to such a cruel, inhumane and degrading punishment, which runs completely counter to the International Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane and Degrading Treatment and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

It is vital that the Nigerian Federal Government is given support to fulfil its human rights commitments. People from all round the world can play their part in encouraging Nigeria to do the right thing: to end inhumane and cruel sentences in its territory and to ensure human rights for all Nigerians.

You can help make a difference by encouraging the Nigerian government to focus on delivering its pledges to its own people and to the international community by writing to both the Nigerian and you local and national politicians."

http://www.mertonai.org/amina/

online petition at
http://www.mertonai.org/amina/OpenLetter.htm


IslamStinks!
Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:59 pm
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Isam is a false religion leading millions astray. It is the largest cult in the world!


Bigotry Stinks!
Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:33 am
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Which sect of Islam is leading millions astray? You can't judge an entire culture by its extremists and fanatics. That's like denoucing Western culture because a few fanatical Christians have blown up abortion clinics. Get real and stop making outrageous overgeneralizations like that.


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[Jeph (68.221.61.163)]

Did the LTWF start a church in Nigeria after I left?

[Rachel (207.19.141.251)]

Yes, my mother's whole side of the family was part of this group when they were in New Hampshire in the mid-70's. My grandfather was one of the ministers and my uncle (now perpetually suicidal) was shipped off to founding center in California. Bill Grier was responsible for the downfall of many marriages, arranging for my father to be attacked (for trying to help my mother escape) My parents were later married by the church (the condition that was laid out for my grandparents to maintain contact) and I was "prophesied" as being born male etc. Fortunately,all my relatives were able to disentangle themselves from this brainwashing group, but not until after much damage was done. I read an article about them in Alaska - they may well be well-intentioned, but are misleading many and using powerful influence. My childhood was vividly marked by the aftermath resulting from involvement with this church.

[Rachel (207.19.141.251)]

"yes" above pertained to The Walk as a cult, not Nigerian affiliation

[Anonymous (156.99.238.166)]

I was a member of "The Walk" from 76'-84'. Beginning in San Diego then Redlands and again back to San Diego. As most members, also attended in Anaheim. I was young when we entered the church, so only a few of the names are familiar, obviously Marilyn and Gary (actually attended the Redlands church when Gary was married to his previous wife). Could anyone help me with the name of the pastor that lived in El Cajon?? It has been so many years.

[Mike (4.8.230.53)]

"Could anyone help me with the name of the pastor that lived in El Cajon?? "

Was it Williamson? If so, I think he left the walk to join the Mormon church in the early to mid-80's.
BTW, if you were in Redlands church sometime between '76-'84--we most likely knew each other.


Mike Jones


P.S. rumors that Larry Cotton left TLWF to sing in the Mormon Tabernacle choir are patently false.

[Anonymous (156.99.238.166)]

OMG, When I read your last name I absolutely pictured your face. I would bet money on it. I was thinking it was Williams or something like that so you hit that on the head also. You wouldn't by chance remember his first name or his wifes??? I lived down the block from them with a house full and truly would like to get in contact with someone from that area. I guess since this message is annonymous I shouldn't be so secretative, but when I was a member of the walk I gave a daughter up for adoption and the Williamson's (actually the "holy brotherhood") Took care of EVERYTHING - not much considering nothing was on the legal up and up. At any rate, I am searching for a child I gave up for adoption in 1981.