Revamping of TLWF site

[changedagain]

Has anyone seen it? It's quite appealing, very professional looking. It has a more personable feel than the previous version.
There's also a section on the site where TLWF responds to 'myths' that have been circulating on the web (no doubt, much of it from this site) that is exceptionally well written, but of course, less than truthful--at least from the perspective of many ex-members that frequent this site. The most transparent misrepresentation in this section, I think, is the claim that TLWF has fostered an environment that does not rely on control or intimidation, but freedom for each individual to find their own relationship with the Lord. Nice theory, but I tend to trust the ample instances cited here that suggest just the opposite--some expereriences as recent as a few years back.
We can't all be lying here, can we? ;)

[louann]

The new site of TLW is a quantum improvement over its predecessor. That said, one must remember that websites are going to present a somewhat rosy picture of what is being presented. Would I go back? Probably not -- I would have to see the end of the doublespeak, spiritual abuse, etc. I looked at pictures of the pastors, and remember some of them very fondly, particularly John Miller. It has been 22 years since I left Shiloh. I have matured, and surely these folk have as well, and maybe things are better than they once were, but maybe they are not.

I have married (May 20), and moved to Maryland. Have a job as organist/music director in a church in DC. God is good.

[winterland]

Proverbs 14:15 The simpleton believes every word he hears, but the prudent man looks and considers well where he is going. (Amplified version)

[larry_bobo]

I enjoyed visiting the new website. It’s well done and it was good to see the faces of so many old friends. As one who has made assertions of what I feel are doctrinal errors in TLWF, I find myself being more concerned over what has been carefully left out, rather than what is stated. It looks like the work of a marketing spin doctor trying to make sure no red flags are raised to warn mainstream Christianity.

I think assuming that people who have been wounded and finally speak up are only “ignoring kindness, wisdom, and a respect for the truth” continues to sidestep issues that need to be corrected if there is not going to be further damage done in the future. Hidden behind the little phrase of “mistakes in the past” are “words from God” that really were not words from God and honestly damaged lives. It’s not a light matter. Under the Law, these “prophets” were killed at God’s command. In my opinion, saying something
is a word from God when it really is not, is a form of taking the name of the Lord in vain.

I have not heard of any kind of apology or acceptance of responsibility. Those that spoke up at the time these mistakes were made were considered to be rebellious and their loyalty questioned. Many just wanted to honestly be able to put their weight on what was being said and know for certain that God was leading them, not the opinions of men, no matter how well intentioned. How many have suppressed the witness of the Holy Spirit in the name of submission only to find out later the warnings would have prevented a lot of heartache?

Former and current members know that the culture of TLWF revolves around G&M. To deliberately try to disguise that fact is disingenuous at best. Does the Lamp of Israel need to be hidden under a bushel? I have much more respect for someone who lives out in the open and says this is what I’m giving my life to than one who is trying to mislead the unsuspecting. The scriptures warn about those who call themselves the Christ and draw people after themselves.

Why not submit JRS opening the door to the kingdom in 1979 or bringing down Satan with his death of prostate cancer to the rest of the Christian leadership you say you are a part of. These are both huge landmarks that the rest of the Body needs to be aware of if they are really true. (My Bible seems to indicate that Jesus did these things, but I may not be viewing them through the proper apostolic lens.) Did the many prophesies of breaking into resurrection life happen before JRS’ death? I know many still believe for it to happen but that was not the “word” at the time. JRS said that if they carried him out feet first, his word was not true. Maybe that thought should be examined more closely.
Part 1 of 2

[larry_bobo]

Part 2 of 2
If you are going to demand absolute control of the lives under your care, don’t you think it would healthy to submit your lives and teachings to other leaders, as the Apostle Paul did, so you would know if you were running in vain or not? You strongly suggest not submitting to those who are not submissive themselves. Does that apply only to others or should your leadership model it as well? It’s really nothing to be afraid of. It will only make you healthier. Blatant facts are completely disregarded and it could be corrected if you really wanted the truth instead of hiding off in the spirit realm somewhere assuming infallibility. Looking to your own isolated group for a yes-man is not genuine confirmation.

Why the secret libraries and sermons if you are pursuing integrity? I know on the surface it is said that you are trying to protect sheep from deeper truths that they are not yet ready to handle yet, but maybe they need to be protected from “designated relationships” that will control every area of their lives and after they have suffered, will produce little or no fruit. In the end, there is no such thing as a secret anyway – the fruit, or lack of fruit, will be evident. The Body of Christ needs to be exposed to authentic mature fruit, not protected from it.

Six months in a healthy church produced more value in my life than over 30 years in TLWF. Unfortunately, there is just enough spin on the scriptures in TLWF to render them mostly ineffective. The Bible wasn’t given to provide insights into JRS’ word. It’s supposed to be the other way around. Just reading the Bible as it is written, without any human input, and doing what it says, is a wonderful thing, unless you are trying to control and manipulate others – after all, you may end up without a position and have to serve others. Actually, I found it’s not so bad after all. I’ve noticed that healthy leaders point you to the Source; unhealthy leaders point you to themselves, trying to take the place of God and making you dependent on them.

[louann]

A number of years ago, after I left the Walk, a former pastor (who had also left), who had served in Indiana, told me that I had led at Shiloh the life of a "nondenominational nun". And, now knowing a bit about monastic usages, I see he was right. BUT, there was a HUGE difference: In a monastery you are told up front what to expect, given a copy of the Rule, and serve an apprenticeship of several years before you make vows. In the Walk, we were told nothing, and, at least in my own case, did not realize what was up until there was so much emotional investment in the group, that to leave meant to leave one's only friends.

Larry, that post of yours was well-said. I learned more of theology in a few video courses from the Lutherans than I ever learned in the Walk. Part of their problem is the problem of many groups who try to bypass Christian history and "repristinate" the "early church". It simply does not work. JRS was trying to reinvent the wheel -- and it did not work.

That website made everything look WONDERFUL. Well, many things look wonderful until you get to know them better. One of the great sins of the Walk is Gnosticism -- the idea of secret knowledge for the elite (sound familiar?). If this is all so great, why the spin? Was there "kindness, wisdom, and respect for the truth" for those who were so badly wounded in the spirit? What about the mind games played on those who were under the "authority"?

What has happened is a "Vatican" with more hubris and less accountability than a Pope ever had. Even the Pope submits his various encyclicals (letters) to the Congregation of the Faith before they are published. So Pope John Paul II submitted his encylicals to Cardinal Ratzinger. And, "papal infallibility" is, and has always been, subject to the action of the Holy Spirit. Can G&M claim that? Dare they?

Since leaving the Walk, I have worked as musician in Episcopal, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and now Methodist church. We organists are ecclesiastical gypsies, I'm afraid.... What I have found over these 22+ years is a certain consistency of basic doctrine -- "the faith that was once and for all handed down to the saints..." I have been able to plant my feet on a firm foundation of the faith, regardless of the various denominations, and I have found wonderful folks who love the Lord in these churches.

I will close this post with a reminder to anyone who has read "The Last Battle" from C.S. Lewis' "The Chronicles of Narnia". You might remember that the dwarfs would not fight for Aslan (God) or Tash (not-God), but kept saying "The dwarfs are for the dwarts!" Even after they were in heaven, they continued to thing that they were still in the stable, and refused to even listen to the truth. So they remained for all eternity, trapped in the prison of their own deceived minds. Sadly, I see this mentality in what is left of the Walk.

[winterland]

Has the Living Word changed? Because I have only visited on the fringes the last few years, I can't answer that question. I was listening to an Living Word tape tonight from 10-31-73 called "A Heart of Flesh" I wrote down a few statements from the tape that I thought were excellent.

A worship service is for people to open their hearts to the Lord and worship Him.

Depths of which God has possessed that man in his heart-that determines the spiritual life.

The thing that will make The Walk is the heart level of the people in it. What God has done in your heart.

This is a walk with the Lord. Do you know the Lord? Do you have this walk with God yourself?

A heart to know Him, a heart to respond to Him, that's what He's talking about.

references Eze 11:19, 36:25-28 Matt 15:1-20 Prov 4:23


Has the Living Word changed? I guess the bigger question is How is my heart?

[noitulove]

I agree with what some have posted here in criticism of the new site. To be honest, the first time I read the beliefs page my stomach turned, I was completely saddened. I had hopes that the new site would finally lay out the beliefs of the church, so that people knew what they were getting into. TLWF has missed yet another opportunity to prove that they aren't a cult. Instead, they misrepresent their beliefs to the uninitiated, for fear of "wierding them out" or maybe because they "don't understand."

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

I propose that we create articles on wikipedia.org which will outline the actual beliefs of the church, so that people can be informed of what is really going on.

The wiki format seems to work well for other groups, such as scientology, as anyone can edit any part, and if there is controversy there is a discussion page.

The best part about a wikipedia article is that Google gives them very high preference, so people looking for info will be directed there first.

I have created several "stubs" for articles:
The Living Word Fellowship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Word_Fellowship)
John Robert Stevens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Robert_Stevens)
Shiloh Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiloh_Church)

Editing these articles is REALLY EASY, so please DO YOUR PART! If you have info, put it out there, and try to cite sources wherever possible. I don't have a living word library but I know there are people out there who do, so let's do this. I am young and don't know a lot of the history of the walk, but I know you are out there. I can attest to the fact that manipulation and overcontrol still goes on in TLWF, and we need people to have the facts before they get into it.

[spaceman]

I am looking for input into understanding some curious human behaviour. Maybe you could help? I have been intrigued by reading the story of Simon the magician (Acts 8). Simon claimed to be "an extraordinary and distinguished person" Acts 8:8 (amplified Bible). He also had an audience that "were attentive and made much of him, because for a long time he had amazed and bewildered and dazzled them with his skill" Acts 8:11. However, Peter said to him "you are in the gall of bitterness and a bond forged by iniquity (TO FETTER SOULS)" Acts 8:23.

I've been wondering what bond this is "to fetter souls"? Any ideas?

Isaiah 14 talks about how Satan would "exalt my throne above the stars of God" Is 14:13, how he would "ascend above the heights of the clouds" Is 14:14.

Why would he do this? What's in it for him?

Paul mentions in Romans 6:16 that "if you continually surrender yourselves to any one to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey".

Could this be the goal of those exalting themselves? To have slaves and perhaps use the slaves as "scapegoats" to transfer sin to them?

I see this going on a lot, but hope to find God's perspective.

Thanks for your insightful posts. Spaceman

[spaceman]

I am looking for input into understanding some curious human behaviour. Maybe you could help? I have been intrigued by reading the story of Simon the magician (Acts 8). Simon claimed to be "an extraordinary and distinguished person" Acts 8:8 (amplified Bible). He also had an audience that "were attentive and made much of him, because for a long time he had amazed and bewildered and dazzled them with his skill" Acts 8:11. However, Peter said to him "you are in the gall of bitterness and a bond forged by iniquity (TO FETTER SOULS)" Acts 8:23.

I've been wondering what bond this is "to fetter souls"? Any ideas?

Isaiah 14 talks about how Satan would "exalt my throne above the stars of God" Is 14:13, how he would "ascend above the heights of the clouds" Is 14:14.

Why would he do this? What's in it for him?

Paul mentions in Romans 6:16 that "if you continually surrender yourselves to any one to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey".

Could this be the goal of those exalting themselves? To have slaves and perhaps use the slaves as "scapegoats" to transfer sin to them?

I see this going on a lot, but hope to find God's perspective.

Thanks for your insightful posts.
Shalom, Spaceman

[changedagain]

"I have not heard of any kind of apology or acceptance of responsibility"

Nor have I--but I'm not holding my breath. As Lou Ann hinted, the Vatican is more likely to acknowledge specific wrongdoing than TLWF leadership.
Pretty sad--and I believe it's the root of its stunted growth.

[louann]

Again, in response to Spaceman's post, I think the issues boils down to accountability. There have been instances of abuse in monasteries, but the system of visitations by outside authorities, and accountability to the local bishop tends to keep things from getting out of line. Corrective measures are mandated, to the point of actually removing problematical authorities from office!

I think there definitely is truth to what Spaceman says. However, in a true monastic environment, one does, to a point, give up one's will, but there are definite limits, and the person knows well what he/she is getting into. In a group like TLWF, you do not know, nor are you told -- you are just sucked in. I truly hope that has changed, but the "perks" that come with being "Exalted" are mighty tempting, and very few can resist.

It was the philosopher Lord Acton who said "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." How very true.

I just don't think God is going to bless something so deceptive anymore.

Lou Ann

[winterland]

Proverbs 27:21 The crucible [tests] silver, and the funace [tests] gold, but a person [is tested] by [his reaction to] praise. Complete Jewish Bible Translated by David H Stern

crucible: a vessel used for melting materials at high temperatures

[louann]

I remember reading something about Corrie ten Boom, the dear Dutch saint who hid Jews, and then spent the postwar times witnessing and preaching. She said that she would gather all compliments received in a day as one might gather flowers in a bouquet, and then, in the evening, lay this "bouquet" at the Father's feet.

I have known a number of very holy people, and every single one of them was amazingly humble, and almost embarassed by praise.

If anyone watched the election of the present pope, one could see the near-embarrasment on Cardinal Ratzinger's face.

I think one's reaction to praise and adulation is a good test of one's humility and sanctity. Remember in Phillipians: "...He took the form of a slave...."

Praise, wealth, and power continue to be the great temptations, just as they were in Jesus' time, when the devil tempted the Lord of Glory with these things. We all can see object lessons, but we ourselves should examine our own hearts as well, lest we be deceived again!

[patience2]

I am another former “Walkie”, and have been reading the posts with such interest, wanting to know why things happened the way they did, what’s happened to the dear people I knew, and what’s happening currently in the Walk, such as it is.

My introduction to the Walk was humiliating, to say the least. We were geographically removed from “Walk Central”, and at the time I didn’t even have a clue who JRS was, or what the Walk was about. Shortly after, however, when I eventually was able to listen to JRS on tape, I felt that here was something that was exciting and relevant – giving us something on which to chew – after growing up in the fundamentals of Christianity, here was the real meat of the word. When we were finally plugged into a fellowship, I observed carefully how other women behaved and were treated, and frankly began to think that my “initiation” was unique. That was the in the later ‘70s.

I have many happy and fond memories of those years – the trips to Seattle to fellowship with the Maranatha body, to Oregon with the Lake Oswego group, the couple trips to Yakima and Bend, and also to Medford and Grants Pass. We even made the pilgrimage to Shiloh for a time. We were disappointed that JRS wasn’t there at that time, but all in all, things seemed rather loose and relaxed. I volunteered to clean the “johns” (with Avis Root), and comments were made that they had never been so clean! LOL. Those were good times. Eventually we became aware of the rumours circulating regarding JRS and Martha, and later Marilyn, but were (I felt) quite protected from a lot of it by Glen O. I have to say that I was, and am, very grateful for his leadership and shepherding.

Shortly after John’s death, we made a trip to LA and San Diego, visiting several friends in the Walk and churches along the way. It was at the service in Chula Vista where it finally hit home how things really were. Nothing in the service made sense. When someone made the comment to us, something like “we don’t have our father John with us anymore, but at least we have our Mother in Israel, Marilyn”, we knew it was time to reconsider our involvement, at least with the Living Word as it was being played out down there. We left back from home with heavier hearts, and knew it was only a matter of time.

Our fellowship back home continued for awhile longer, but after a bit, it felt like we were flogging a dead horse – things just weren’t the same. Our group eventually dispersed, most of us making our way back into more traditional Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. It wasn’t the same, that’s for sure. We felt that we really weren’t getting fed – the meat we had been given in the Word, the fellowship with other Walkies, the fun we had together any time we gathered - it had really spoiled us, and had us wanting for more.

The following years were quite the journey. The Walk left an imprint on us – both positively and negatively. I still feel that we were led to it, and out of it, by the Grace of God. I can’t really say that it was all a mistake. I have to believe that everything happens for a reason.

[louann]

The time we all spent in the Walk was NOT wasted! As is said in the post of patience2, everything happens for a reason (well, almost everything). If nothing else, that time would have to have been a learning experience.

Actually, some of the things I learned have served me VERY well as I serve "in the trenches" of the mainline church. For instance, being suspicious of personality cults developing around a particular pastor or bishop. And, the importance of submission to authority (right submission, that is -- not slavish). And, the principles of spiritual warfare, and the concept of elemental spirits. I have seen these things taught elsewhere, but never with such clarity as JRS taught them.

In my opinion, things went more and more "off", the more the rift with Martha widened, and the relationship with Marilyn developed. A dear friend of mine (also in the Walk, but a friend before and after) felt that Marilyn was out to take control, from the get-go. I don't know, but I did find her VERY scary, to say the least.

The healthiest thing that could have happened in the Walk after the death of JRS, would have been for Finney or Miller or Thomas of Iowa to have been given the mantle. Someone really steady and sane, and not all that ambitious. The attempt to hang on to JRS, by the horribly misguided clamor for his resurrection (this was my red flag!), and for the usurpation by that woman, and her subsequent marriage to a man who, it seems to me, was consumed with ambition -- this was the death-knell for this movement. God can raise up others to carry this Word, if it is really true.

All that does not mean we wasted our time. God can redeem the time, and His Word is always true. I do think it is good that we have a forum such as this to talk about it.

[patience2]

Thank you, Louann for being so forthright. For the past years since we left the Walk, I've struggled to understand it all. The impact it had will be with us for our lifetime, I'm sure.

I agree that there were others who were better "qualified" (or gifted, whatever) to take the mantle. You speak of Miller - I remember him always having such a sense of joy and humour. He also had integrity, and I would like to believe that over the years that there still are those in the Walk who remember what that word means.

You mention, "being suspicious of personality cults developing around a particular pastor". It's very interesting how that the influence of our experience in the Walk has made us so wary and even suspicious of all leadership. If not suspicious, then at least discerning as we can be.
My sons are now grown, with families of their own. They are integrally involved in their respective churches, and I find it interesting to see how they have their eyes and ears open to anything that might come close to false teaching, idolatry (worship and adoration of the pastors), unwarranted requirement to submit, etc...I'm actually very proud of them for how they're carefully (and properly) guiding their families in their walk with God.

After leaving the Walk, and after a couple of false-starts in a couple of quieter churches, we started attending a "mega" church in a city near us. Quite a few of our fellow Walkies were also attending there. Things started off well (or so we thought), but within a couple of years were starting to hear things from the pulpit that were eerily similar to what we had heard in the months before leaving the Walk...this certainly concerned us. Also, at that time, people were leaving the church in droves - but nobody was saying why - they just left.

We had been like the cream rising to the top in that church, involved extensively in the music ministry. When a comment was made by us to someone who we thought was a close friend that some of the things we were hearing being preached were sounding "cultish" and reminded us of our past experience, it probably didn't take more than 24 hours before we were asked to remove ourselves from any form of ministry in the church. Well, the veil fell from our eyes very quickly at that point, and it was apparent what had been going on, and why all those people had been leaving. At the time we left, there were scores of families leaving - some wounded beyond repair. The pain we experienced through that period of time left even a greater scar than when we left the Walk. We thought we had put that behind us, and so easily it seemed, we had been hoodwinked, used and abused again! My marriage dissolved not long after that. I won't go into details, but for sure the influence of the Walk had a part in it. The later experience was like the final nail in the coffin.

Since that time, I have been unable to trust any ministry, and have not attended anywhere. I know in my heart that there are good shepherds out there - and that no shepherd is perfect. My faith and trust in Him has not changed - it's actually stronger and more real to me than ever before.
It has finally come down to my personal relationship with Him - taken all the extraneous stuff out of the picture, and left me in a place of sorting and sifting out what is real and what is not - on my own, with no one telling me what I "have to believe". That is not to say that I will never again be part of a fellowship. I actually hope that someday, this will happen. Maybe having this forum to get things out into the open will be part of the healing.

[spaceman]

A few months ago, I attended a seminar on "lamentation prayer". The speaker encouraged us to pour out our pain (anguish, travail etc.) to the Lord as a "groaning too deep for words", Romans 8:26. The intent of the lamentation to the Lord is to be "real" with God, so that we may lose our hidden pain in order to receive His fruit (Is 53:11 NAS). The religious spirit "hides" from God (Adam & Eve), but He desires truth in the inward parts (Ps 51:6). Nathaneal (John 1:47) was called a true son of Israel by Jesus, as there was nothing false in him.

Psalms 62:8 instructs us to "pour out your hearts before Him, for God is our helper". Hannah "poured out her soul before the Lord" 2Kings 1:15. We are also told to "cast all your anxiety upon Him, because He cares for you" 1Pet 5:7.

Well, I tried this prayer, and amazing things happened. I was in great pain from a recent shunning and rejection, but could not "shake" it off. I poured it out to the Lord and He not only took the pain away, He made it possible to fellowship with the people who had shunned me before.

This is still a new experience for me, but it seems to be a powerful key to the release of pain and suffering. I hope this rings true to you and you try it and have relief like I've had.

Shalom, Spaceman

[patience2]

Spaceman - thank you for that encouragement. You hit the nail on the head, I think. The pain and anguish as a result of the shunning (or distancing)that we also experienced, as well as subsequent events, have left me wondering if I'll ever feel truly joyful (a state of spirit regardless of the circumstances) again.

Someone close to me has commented that he wonders if he's actually met the "real" me yet. The disappoinment over the years has had its impact, and I don't remember the last time when I felt real joy (always smiling on the outside and crying on the inside - that's me!)

We put the Walk and the shepherds on the pedestal, and when they failed us so miserably, we were bereft. However, in spite of the pressure to put our faith in them, ultimately it really was our own choice to take our eyes off the Lord, and put them on the leadership. A true (and humble) shepherd would never let this happen, and conversely, we shouldn't let it happen, either.

Spaceman - I know who you are, and want you to know that I'm really blessed to read what you've been sharing from your heart. Thank you so much!

[louann]

So much pain out there. So much! I have told my husband (who came out of the strictest Pentecostal movement -- the UPC -- and understands), and he has been amazed. He and I have both landed in the mainline churches, and I think they may be the most doctrinally sound, despite some of the squirrelly things going on in some of the hierarchies. The trick is to find one that is still alive. It is a more subtle, quieter, less-exciting life, but more steady, and, above all, more accountable to authority -- pastors who preach false doctrine, commit immorality, or set up personality cults can be moved or even defrocked. I personally have found this accountability to be comforting.

To be sure, it is a quieter atmosphere, and the Word preached is usually exposition of the scriptures of the day. But, I have found it to be a very safe environment, and a place where I can grow. Since leaving the Walk, I have served as musician in Episcopal, Catholic, Lutheran, and now Methodist churches.

The problem with these mega-churches is the same problem that JRS had: no accountability to spiritual authority. HE was the authority -- and, that is extremely dangerous. And so it is all to often in these nondenominational churches. When Jim Bakker veered into scandal, the Assemblies of God defrocked him. When a prominent Methodist minister in Texas got into a scandal, he was invited to surrender his credentials. When a Lutheran pastor was arrested for an immoral act, the Bishop was there right away to seek the man's resignation.

Who are these mega-pastors accountable to? To whom do they submit? Even the Pope submits to his confessor, and to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. No one is infallible.

Patience2, find a good, solid church, preferably NOT a nondenominational church, and, once you feel fairly safe, get involved as the Lord leads. It is easy for those of us who were in a group like the Walk to get into spiritual elitism, which is a form of spiritual pride, and to want to be on "the cutting edge" (whatever that is...). I think it is healthier to find a good, solid church, and simply find one's own place there. Healing is possible, but I choose not to go to churches that are too much like the Walk -- that is like sticking your hand into a flame after you have been burned. Hang in there.

[patience2]

Louann - thanks for the words. I have already considered what you are suggesting, and there are a couple of options I am looking at. After so many years away from a fellowship, I am taking things very slowly and carefully. My daughter-in-law knows how lonely I've been, and has also been encouraging me to connect with a church where the leadership is accountable.

For many years I thought I didn't need it - I just saw the church as another system where the program was more important than the people it served, to put it simply. However, we were not created to be islands unto ourselves, and as the years go by, I've become so isolated that it's unhealthy. I believe you mentioned in another post that at least what we've been through has served to make us more discerning and aware, but this also has a down-side in that every little problem we see becomes magnified. When I see things that I'm not particularly comfortable with, I run as fast as I can in the opposite direction. It always feels like an open wound is being stuck with a hot knife. With time, I believe that healing is possible, and it may be like bungy jumping to begin with - as the saying goes, the first step is always the hardest.

I've taken many "first steps" in the past while, and have a sense that this is just the beginning of the healing that God has in store. I've also entered into a new and healthy relationship in the past year, and I truly would like to see us involved in some kind of spiritual environment.

[spaceman]

Good wisdom to follow, Louann. Thanks. Also thanks to patience2 for those kind words.

We have found some powerful teaching through "Samuel's Mantle" in Langley, British Columbia, Canada; and "Fresh Wind" in Abbotsford British Columbia, Canada. The leaders there consider it a privilege to be classified as "waiters at the Lord's banquet table". They delight in bringing the Lord's people into the presence of the Lord and serving them there.

www.freshwindpress.com (http://www.freshwindpress.com)
www.samuelsmantle.com (http://www.samuelsmantle.com)


Shalom, Spaceman

[larry_bobo]

Some great posts! As people are searching to find a new church home, I wanted to share my discoveries. There really is abundant life after TLWF. Everything that has happened to any of us, God foreknew and is able to use for His glory. Our life stories are not over yet!

First of all, I think it's important to realize that everyone that has been born again into the Father's family, are brothers and sisters. I don't think the denominational divisions that keep people from connecting with one another are scriptural. There are many parts to the Body and God places you in the Body as it pleases Him, but the parts are not to be isolated from each other. We need each other to even be a Body.

I happen to find a mega-church that I love. We have over 1000 small groups so it's the best of both worlds. Even though we are nondenominational, our pastor has to answer not only to a local board, but also to other national leaders who have the authority to fire him, if necessary. Not every mega-church has no accountability. There's also a reason they are a mega-church -- they are authentically meeting the needs of a lot of people.

We believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit but we don't follow signs, they are to follow us. We are aware that most of that which is called prophetic really didn't originate with God but rather with humans looking for a special positions over the less "gifted". Nevertheless, God is still speaking today in a way that never conflicts with His written word. He loves to empower those that want to make his Body strong.

As we go back to the Bible and obey what it says, there is great life. It may seem like new revelation in comparison with some dusty traditions, but it's been there all along waiting for those who would put the simple things into action. No new doors need to be opened or special moves of God's spirit need to take place before His word will work. He just needs willing and obedient hearts that will run after Him no matter what has happened to them by the hands of others.

Real safety in is God's word, not in hiding from those who have hurt you in the past. We, of all people, should realize what can happen when when we are not careful to follow exactly what He says. The little errors have a way of becoming huge problems. If anything, it should help us realize that there is only One who is faithful and always is looking out for our good. Men, no matter how well intentioned, are infallible and will lead to disappointment when allowed to take God's place. Only God never makes any mistakes and can be completely trusted.

[patience2]

Hi again – some very good links there, Spaceman. I’m very intrigued!!

Larry, you hit on some interesting principles:

1. In any church environment I’ve been in, whether it be TLW or the “blab it and grab it” variety, the one thing that I’ve always felt is that if there is no fruit – and by fruit I mean growth that comes from the outside, not just internally by producing from within - something is wrong. We are called to be a light and salt to the world. If the doctrine being preached is so elitist, or requires a special dispensation to understand it, then it has missed the mark.

2. Anytime we are advised that we shouldn’t mix or connect with the rest of God’s people, it’s like being told we can do without the other important parts of our body. I know there were certain shepherds (and I use that word loosely) in the Living Word who told their people not to have fellowship outside the Walk (and particularly other Christians), that it was basically consorting with Babylon. This was not necessarily an issue in our particular area, as I said before, I believe that the shepherding in our local area was healthier.

However, this issue came up again in the mega-church we attended later. They actually said from the pulpit that if we left for any reason – even to fellowship with another congregation once in awhile, that we were leaving the anointing of God behind, that He wouldn’t protect us, and that we would be vulnerable to the attacks of Satan. We could walk out the door of the church and be hit by a bus!! I was flabbergasted when I heard that! It was a key point, which in part, precipitated our eventual departure from there. I drew the parallel with our own extended families. Most nights, we have our dinner together as a family, but next week we might visit an Aunt & Uncle, or our Grandparents and have our dinner there. Also, they may come to our home to fellowship. Does that mean that any of us have walked away from God’s covering? We are all part of the same family, and all the parts strengthen us in different ways. I don’t see the Church (or body of Christ) any differently. We may have different ways of cooking our meals, or the way in which the meal is served may be unique – but does that make it wrong?

I’m just now beginning to feel a spark of anticipation about what God has in store for me personally. I’m embarking on new journey in my life. There’s been so much that has happened – more than I can share in this forum – and through it all, I’ve known that He gives and gives more grace. If not for that, I’m not sure I could have survived.

[louann]

This business of not fellowshiping with other Christians is, I believe, a ploy of Satan, to divide and conquer. And this business of threatening people who leave with the loss of their salvation is cultish, BIGTIME. We all are part of the Body of Christ. ALL OF US who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. This includes mainline Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, nondenominationals, etc. Some of these folk have suffered terribly for their faith under Communism or in Islamic lands -- how dare anyone "exclude" them from the Body!!

This sort of coercion is nothing but a means of control by control-freaks and narcissists. Are these folk caring one whit about the poor and the persecuted? Where is the compassion?

Also, we Christians need to be more UNITED, as the big danger is not from Nephilim or other spooky sorts of things, but from militant Islam.

Patience2, you are on the right track. I will pray for you. Hang in there.

[winterland]

Patience 2 (become) So much of what you expressed, I've experienced as well. We are on the path to wholeness in Christ Jesus.

[patience2]

I'm out of touch for the next couple of days, so didn't want to leave without saying anything. There is alot to think and pray about - and examining my own heart about things, as well. The one thing that I have tried to be very cautious about is not being bitter about past experience, but that hasn't always been easy. I have a ways to go on that score - but I am very cognizant of His presence in my life (how could I not?), and have to remember that we can't always "fix" things (a hard thing if we're a "fixer" kind of person :-). We have to let things go of and let God take care of it.

Everyone have an awesome weekend! (oops, did I say that??)

As Spaceman says, "Shalom" - it feels good to say it and hear it :-)

[spaceman]

I have struggled over the years with the "cross experience or the crucify the flesh" doctrine. It made me think of the Lord as a hard disciplinarian and tough task master. I have experienced the love and kindness of the Lord, but there was always the anticipation of the "scourging". Anyone else in this boat?

I was reading through my newfound "Jewish New Testament" translation by David H. Stern when the light went on for me. Peter was being rebuked by the Lord in Mark 8:33 "your thinking is from a human perspective, not from God's perspective". The Lord went on to say (on the same theme?) "If anyone wants to follow me, let him say 'No' to himself, take up his cross, and keep following me".

The "cross" defined in the Greek lexicon is: "taking a stand". Could it be that we simply need to seek the Lord's perspective, and that's the extent of the "cross" experience? Saying 'no' to our own perspective?

This has greatly helped me understand and ease through the "disciplining" of the Lord. Maybe He just wants to change our viewpoint?

He is so merciful, kind, loving and patient that the "scourging" just didn't fit.

Glad you like the term "shalom", patience2. It has some powerful meanings:
"freedom from all the distresses that are experienced as the result of sin and upon which your peace, that is, your security, safety, prosperity and happiness depend" Luke 19:42 Amplified.

We're off for vacation. Did you know that there are two seasons in Alberta? Winter...............
and July.

Shalom, Spaceman

[cedarrapidsletter]

"Maybe He just wants to change our viewpoint?" -spaceman

Yes, that is it! And don't get stuck in semantics. How do you describe the richness of the spirit when all you have seen is the crud of organized religion? It is a miracle, that the poverty of this flesh can contain the wealth of the spirit.

It is sort of like living in Los Angeles. I may be an American living in America but here I'm surrounded by Mexicans acting like Mexicans. That does not keep me from acting like an American. (No offence meant to my Canadian or Mexican friends, its just culture, ah)

But,the same concept holds true in the spirit, you know what you are from, despite the appearance of circumstances; act like it.

In God's perspective, the perspective of His truth, is where the spiritual dwell. Learn your earthly lessons, even the hard way if you must. Take them to heart, but dwell in Gods Love.

Shalom

PS: Winter in Alberta can be magical, I've seen it. July, though, happens everywhere.