THE WALK [Archive] - Factnet Forum

winterland (winterland)

06-25-2005, 01:04 AM

Daikon; Just a note to let you know that my husband and I are still checking in on this site every week or so to see if anything new is happening, so don't feel alone.

We're living here in Alberta, Canada and we have really enjoyed finding this website this spring. I think we found it a little late because most of the posting had died down by the time we got involved. I've been so impressed by the insight of a lot of the people here. Although you have to filter through it and decide for yourself if there is anything of value for you.

I didn't really understand your question in paragraph two. Could you explain it a little more?

I have found it fascinating to learn about the similarities between latter rain teaching and JRS teaching. I always assumed that all of this teaching originated in the walk and I found it very interesting that JRS built on what had come in a previous move of God. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I just thought that EVERYTHING started with JRS. But that makes sense-following the pattern of restoration-each movement takes the previous teaching a little farther.

But I was only 15 years old in 1970 when I came into the Walk in the Seattle body and I knew nothing about church history. Everything was new to me; the baptism in the spirit, speaking in tongues, prophecy, personal ministry, singing in the spirit etc.

I read a good book called Latter Rain by Richard M. Riss The Latter Rain movement of 1948 and the Mid-Twentieth Century Evangelical Awakening. I referred to it on another thread. It traces the history of a lot of groups that embraced some of the characteristics of the latter-rain movement. There were a lot of different groups that took some of the latter rain teachings. I guess some groups took them to the extreme so perhaps that is why some people throw out everything that came in the latter rain. I don't know, it's just a guess.

Now that I'm 50 I just don't embrace everything as quickly as I did when I was 15. I've been to a lot of churches since our church left the walk in 1983 and I am amazed by all the different teaching that are circulating in the churches. It is helpful to sort of trace back the origin of some of the teaching-where did this particular group pick up this teaching- and then you have a clearer understanding of what they believe. It really has helped me at least.

I still hold a lot of JRS's teaching very close to my heart. I am also careful to evaluate things for myself. That is something I never did when I was in the walk. I just accepted everything I was told.

Now I'm in a period of my life where I want the Lord to make everything I have learned REAL TO ME PERSONALLY. This has been a really neat thing for me to do for my own personal growth with the Lord.

I'm also taking faith for what the next move of the Lord will be and how it will build upon and add to the teaching of the Living Word. I'm taking faith for the emphasis to be on the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I don't think we have even begun to see the beginning of that teaching in it's fulness.

I'm leaving for a two-week vacation this weekend, so I'll check back in when I get back. At least there is someone out here reading your posts. Bless you in your walk with the Lord

daikon (daikon)

06-27-2005, 10:32 PM

thanks winterland

My question was vague... it actually had more to do with bringing out some of the posters that seem to rail against TLW teaching because of roots in Latter Rain. I don't see what it matters - if something bears fruit [or does not]in a person's spirit -- does it matter if it's new or built on something prior?
You are not one of those posters -- you make reasoned, kind comments and have a real desire towards finding the Lord in your own heart. I do too.

I left the Walk some time ago and still have a great deal of love and respect for many members from top to bottom. I didn't come to these boards looking to rail against a cult or defend any particular person or group -- I had been reading some stuff on the TLW site/Shiloh activities and saw many names I knew, so I Googled to find out if there was any more info on the web. That's how I came here.

I must say it has been interesting reading through these threads. It takes one's focused discernment and perception to go through the posts (both pro and con re: TLW) with an objective viewpoint.

Thanks for the book info. Should I need that reference in my desire to press forward, my abiding desire to know the Lord in every part of my being, I know where to look.

rejoicealways (rejoicealways)

06-29-2005, 03:53 PM

"it actually had more to do with bringing out some of the posters that seem to rail against TLW teaching because of roots in Latter Rain. I don't see what it matters - if something bears fruit [or does not]in a person's spirit -- does it matter if it's new or built on something prior?"

Probably not Daikon--but did you see much fruit as a result of the teaching at TLWF...something you would be unlikely to find under different teaching? It seems as though most posters here, even those critical of TLWF, agree that the average member is dedicated, sacrificial, loyal etc.--but don't necessarily link those traits as evidence of right teaching.
What's your view?

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law" Gal. 5:22

daikon (daikon)

06-29-2005, 09:10 PM

"if something bears fruit [or does not]..."

The bearing of fruit from LWF teaching isn't really what I was interested in understanding. It is more about people's adherence to one doctrine and scorn for another at (in my humble opinion) the expense of comprehending the many rooms in our Father's house.

As for me -- My time with the LWF definitely bore fruit right out of Galatians 5:22 -- I didn't leave because my spirit was being starved... there were simply things revealed to me within my own seeking God that didn't fit my path. Simplest way to say it: the LWF and me were not destined to be an ongoing relationship.

Love your screenname... I definitely try to keep up with you!

zeek (zeek)

06-29-2005, 10:19 PM

Hello everyone,
I was involved in a break-off group when John Stevens died.I spent ten years as a passionate follower. When all was said and done the group had me break-up with my girlfriend, transfer title of my company to the group, turn over my inheritance from my mother, sell all my retirement money and transfer to group control and when I said I was done they used the word Betrayal and blow-out against me. It cost me well over 1 million dollars with a spiritual and mental implosion which sent me into a two year depression. Its nice to know other people have had troubles with religious organizations. God bless.Be careful!

rejoicealways (rejoicealways)

06-29-2005, 10:50 PM

Zeek,
Was this group a part of the church?

zeek (zeek)

07-13-2005, 09:20 PM

Yes, They would have been called Blow-outs. When John Stevens died I guess many people left. If anyone can help I am trying to get a tape series called signs and gifts by John Stevens. It was taught in the School of prophets. I contacted TLW but I would have to get permission from a pastor in TLW. Let me know. Thanx

cindy (cindy)

07-14-2005, 03:36 PM

<font color="0000ff">Well, here it is July already. No one's posted a note to my request that I posted. I wonder where ya'll are? I know so many people have passed on, but I'm sure there's still a lot of us out there. I've noticed a lot of criticism regarding the walk. I know there were a lot of problems within the church, but I believe JRS truly loved the people and the word he gave came from his heart, and from the Lord too. It was a time when the Holy Spirit was changing things in the Christian world. Mostly, breaking away from traditions. I know this was going on in other churches and denominations during that time, just in different ways. The Holy Spirit is changing things once again. If you haven't already seen or heard about these people, check it out. Zola Levitt and Michael Rood w/ Rood Awakening. There are more and more Messianic Jews turning to Christ than ever before. Well, God Bless to Ya All, With Love, Cindy</font>

changedagain (changedagain)

07-14-2005, 07:15 PM

"There are more and more Messianic Jews turning to Christ than ever before"

About time.

daikon (daikon)

07-14-2005, 09:27 PM

A little segue comment:

This is the oddest group of Message Boards (the ones dealing with TLW). I looked through several of them... and find that sometime in October 2004 the back and forth in the threads just seems to stop. Then in 2005 sporadic postings begin --(also noting: the site is obviously configured differently) -- but none of the very frequent posters appear again.
Did all of these people just suddenly tire of posting? All at once? That's interesting to me.
Oh well.
Cindy -- what was your request? Sorry, I can't read through the lot of this again. While I am an ex member of TLW, it's been quite some time and I have no particular beef with the group. It does remain a curiosity to me.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-14-2005, 10:37 PM

It got pretty vicious for awhile, with one apologist for TLWF obviously knowing the identity of some of the anonymous anti-TLWF posters and delivering some very pointed personal attacks. It kind of died down after that. She/he was pretty effective. Not quite the Karl Rove level, but close.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-14-2005, 10:46 PM

"I didn't leave because my spirit was being starved... there were simply things revealed to me within my own seeking God that didn't fit my path."

Daikon,
When did you leave...and what motivated you to go?
It appears from your posts that the teaching was not an issue, so I'm wondering what factored into your decision.

winterland (winterland)

07-15-2005, 01:28 AM

Hello Everyone, I just got back from a two week vacation with my husband in the mid west and we spent 5 days in the Kalona, Iowa area. This is the third July 4 in a row that we have been around Shiloh and I have seen a real change in the atmosphere there.

In 2003 we were allowed on the grounds but we had to have a tour guide with us at all times and we were not allowed to attend any services. In 2004 we were allowed to attend one service, but we had to sit in the visitor's room and watch the service on a screen. We could come up to the grounds during the day but there were a lot of "security" people around watching us and trying to "help" us. This summer we could come and go as we pleased and were invited to attend the services. There seemed to be a much more open feeling about the place and I didn't feel like I was constantly being watched. So I am happy to see some changes being made. But I think it could take a long time to undo the atmosphere of suspicion of "outsiders" that we know has been a part of the Living Word.

We didn't feel like attending any of the services but we did go up to Shiloh one afternoon and had a great time visiting with people we hadn't seen in 25 years. Everyone was really warm, welcoming and happy to see us. I didn't want to go to the services because I had been a Shiloh worker from 1975-1980 and I know the vision I have for that place. I would rather just pray for it from a distance and believe for the Lord's will to be done there.

I know that Shiloh has made a real effort in the last few years to fit into the community in Kalona through their firework program etc. I was wondering if anyone knows if the Living Word has ever tried to undo some of the hurts that their former members suffered especially during those "extreme" times around the time of JRS's death? It seems to me that it would be a lot more honoring to the Lord to put efforts into healing and reconciliation with the people that have been so deeply hurt than into firework displays? Just my opinion though.

I know that during my time at Shiloh I saw a lot of pretty weird things.....death prayers, labeling people nephilums.....Jezebels. There was a terrible atmophere of fear and suspicion. It would be wonderful to see an emphasis placed on repentence for some of the wrongs committed in the past rather than just to say "It's a new day"

But on the other side of the coin, I saw incredible kindnesses and a deep love for the Lord in the hearts of many people so I always want to remember the many blessings I received from so many people while I was a part of the Walk.

But I am encouraged that there are some small changes on the surface so perhaps it is a beginning.

When we were in Kalona I had a chance to talk with someone I really consider an established prophet. We were discussing John Stevens and this man had some really good insight. He said that often when someone is "gifted" in one area, they will have a corresponging weakness in another area. In John Stevens case he had some tremendous gifts and also on the opposite side some weaknesses. Unfortunately, there wasn't an atmosphere for checks and balances in tlw at the end of John's life. So many of the older, more experienced pastors were shut out at the end so there was a lot of chaos. Very sad. I know our pastor was prophesied against in Anaheim and those of us visiting Los Angelos shortly after John's death were told that we had "strange" spirits. So our whole church left the Walk. That was a loss for everyone.

One teaching I do remember from John was that every new level begins with repentance. Wouldn't that be a wonderful step toward reconciliation with the Blow Outs?

Cindy, I'm sorry that no one answered your posting from a few months ago. I posted on the reunion sight and didn't get any responce either. If you were at Shiloh during the late 70's and remarried J. I think we have a common friend in the Kalona area. You can e mail me a strhouse@telusplanet.net if you want to correspond. I was never a part any of the California churches but I do know a lot of the people from Iowa.

Zeek. I'm so sorry to hear about your experiences. I was really lucky because all of the pastors I was under in the three places I lived were wonderful men of real integrity. But they also had some pastoral experience before they came into the Walk so I think that gave them a more balanced view of things and I was able to avoid a lot of the craziness. I think those tapes that you are looking for were also printed up into the School of Prophet manuals. They were the brown colored booklets the same size as the This Weeks. If you can't find the School of Prophets booklets anywhere email me at the above address and I might be able to help you in your search.

I really like some of the SOP tapes from the early 70's. One of my favorites is "Our Devotional Life" In that tape John says that if you don't have a devotional life, you don't have a walk with God. That personal devotional life has to be what our "Walk" with God is built on. Nothing else can replace that.

It would be nice if we could start some sort of LW literature exchange here on this board. I know a lot of people don't want their tapes and written material anymore, but there might be someone out here who would like to have it. Just a thought.

Bless everyone.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-15-2005, 02:50 AM

"In John Stevens case he had some tremendous gifts and also on the opposite side some weaknesses."

What do you think were his strengths and weaknesses?

"It would be wonderful to see an emphasis placed on repentence for some of the wrongs committed in the past rather than just to say "It's a new day""

Excellent point. Much easier to generalize than point out specific situations.

daikon (daikon)

07-15-2005, 06:55 PM

changedagain:
The best way to explain why I left is to say: the church became way too "political" for me. Worship and spiritual revelation was what I was after not the changing alliances and positioning of my fellows in the human predicament.
John Robert Stevens was still alive, I never knew him as "John" it was always JRS, Brother Stevens or the complete name.
I gathered a great deal of wheat in my (almost ten years -- So Cal and Shiloh) in "the Walk" but finally the chaff seemed [IMHO]to be getting way too much water.

I still have a great deal of love for many people from those days. As I said before -- I didn't come here to beef about a cult, just out of curiosity. For some reason, my spirit has been reaching out to TLW for a while now. I hope like winterland said above, it is because they are coming into a new more inclusive, kind and forgiving revelation. One based on being a real Christian -- that means very simply a follower of Jesus Christ, not an adherent/slave to doctrine and declaration.
A lot I have read here; I had sensed in the spirit and I have prayed for what I once thought was an excellent outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

The Lord knows, in this time we really need the pure connection in as many people as possible.
God Bless you all

(Message edited by daikon on July 15, 2005)

patrick (patrick)

07-17-2005, 07:00 AM

If a Church teaches salvation through the sacrifice of Christ (which I imagine Latter Rain does) does that make them believers in Latter Rain Theology? Because that would include most of the Christian world.

It's a specious (and weak) argument to lump any group with another because of doctrinal similarities. All creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God is a Biblical verse. So the rocks and the trees are waiting for this but maybe not you. That doesn't make this scriptural truth the unique property of some movement.

Amazing that this is repeated over and over here as some criminal thing. Your beliefs (if Christian) happen to coincide with countless groups: so that gives others license to label you cult or something? Silly if you think about it.

(Message edited by Patrick on July 17, 2005)

winterland (winterland)

07-21-2005, 11:26 PM

Patrick, I'm sorry, I didn't understand your letter. Could you explain it a little more?

Daikon, I loved what you said, esp. the last paragraph.

Changedagain, "In John Stevens case, he had some tremendous gifts and also on the opposite side some weaknesses."

What are John's strengths and weaknesses? I guess the question it comes down to is who was John Stevens to us?

The older I get, the more I realize that everything a person does stems from what a person believes.

And answering the question Who was John? is what really separates the Living Word from other christian groups.
NUMBER ONE
Was John a man with a strong connection to God who was able to move in compassion and love for the people, able to teach and speak a word that witnessed to so many of us. Was he able to move in great revelation and discernment that had been developed over many years through his dedicated walk with the Lord?
NUMBER TWO
Or.....had John literally become Christ in the Earth. And what does that phrase really mean?

At Shiloh we used to sing a chant to John that I am sure a lot of you will remember. "You are the Lord's annointed, you are the Christ in the Earth"

I have to admit now that I don't really understand fully what was meant by that song.

If you believe #1 you can appreciate John's ministry but still examine him as a man who was subjected to weaknesses just like any other man. Could all of the attention upon John in the last few years of his life affected his judgment?

If you believe #2 then perhaps anyone who questions anything that John did is attacking Christ himself. So I can understand why this brings out such strong reactions in some people.

I would be very interested in hearing from someone who believes that John was Christ in the Earth. I am curious how this belief affects your belief in Jesus Christ? I'm also interested in how this belief influences your life today?

I learned a lot about the Lord Jesus Christ through John Stevens' ministry but for me he was a channel that revealed the Lord to me. John Stevens was never equal with Christ or anywhere close to Christ.

I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-22-2005, 03:14 PM

Winterland,
Yes--I think many people on this board would agree that much of the problems with TLWF centered around the godlike status that became John. From just being a vessel of God, to being *the* apostle, *the* door opener to a new age, *the* indisputable carrier of God's word etc.--catapulted him to a place that I think had dire consequences for himself personally, and TLWF.
Obedience and loyalty became elevated in the movement above the importance of having a personal relationship with the Lord.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-22-2005, 03:49 PM

Ceebups:
"I believe that there was a great deal of heart searching and repentance about past wrongs"

Has there been any acknowledgement that the teaching & direction coming from the pulpit has been at least occasionally errant...or is it still required that members of TLWF unquestionably accept everything that has come from authority as the voice of God? I ask this because many movements, as part of their repentance, face that fact that *top leadership* hasn't always expressed God's will in situations--to the point where past teachings & emphasis are corrected, or at least re-examined. Has any of this taken place at TLWF?

ceebups (ceebups)

07-22-2005, 05:06 PM

"Has any of this taken place at TLWF?"

Yes, I believe it has changedagain.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-23-2005, 06:20 PM

Well, if the leadership has acknowledged publicly that its actions & teaching haven't always been the leading of God, that's heartening. It should free up the main part of the fellowship to have more of a voice.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-23-2005, 07:11 PM

Something I came across about a person's experience with another church that I found interesting, with perhaps *some* parallels to TLWF:
"He worked us to death for 14 years -- I sorely regret giving any person total control of my mind. We sacrificed family time on the altar of church service, never feeling we did enough to earn our pastor's approval. He hired family members as church staff, paying them big bucks while the school teachers had to take second jobs to suppport their families. Anyone who dared question how, say, money was spent, was considered "crazy".
He attacked people from the pulpit, not naming names but we knew who he meant. By the way, the church imploded about five years after we quietly left, and the pastor left for greener pastures and fresh sheep. It's now down to a few dozen people.
I was relieved to be assured that we weren't crazy, that God wasn't going to punish us for leaving. We found a kinder, gentler church, and all of us began to heal."

ceebups (ceebups)

07-24-2005, 02:38 AM

I can tell that this public acknowledgment is a big deal to you. Sounds like you have some issues of your own to get over. Best wishes.

winterland (winterland)

07-24-2005, 02:53 AM

Bubbalou, Welcome, and thank you for the reference. I'm sure it is worth checking out.

Ceebups, I'm glad you're back, I have missed you. You always have an encouraging word to share.

I'm glad that tlw is opening up to other groups. I am esp. hoping that some of the ministries that were a part of the walk in the past and are now fellowshipping with you again will have an impact on tlw.

When I lived at Shiloh I got to know a lot of the families in the church that came from an Amish background. One day I was talking to one of the women that had come out of the Amish church and she was trying to explain all of the different sects and divisions that are found in the Amish church. Finally she gave up and said....you really have to be born Amish to understand it.

I think that is a little bit of how it is in tlw. You really have to have been a part of it to understand it. So I think the greatest influence for change will have to come from the inside out.

I've been reading a lot of the Apostolic letters in the New Testament lately and it is amazing how much of the Bible talks about guarding against false doctrine. It was a very important issue in N.T. times and it is still very important today to have the safe guards in place.

I sincerely hope that the leadership in the church will consider what has been shared on Fact Net. I know that the Lord is working in tlw. It all starts with an open heart. Bless you all as you seek to walk with the Lord. I love you guys.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-24-2005, 04:50 AM

"I can tell that this public acknowledgment is a big deal to you"

I meant simply being transparent before your people about specific mistakes made in the ministry--which I think is a vital part of repentance. This is different than just making general statements during a message ('we've all sinned,' 'we've all made mistakes,' 'it's a new day' 'drop the bitterness') that often has the net effect of letting you escape responsibility for past action that has (intentional or not) harmed people. If you believe even a portion of what is written on these boards, you know how important this is for TLWF.
In any event, I didn't intend to offend you with any of my posts. You come across as a sincere, warm hearted person and I wish you well.

ceebups (ceebups)

07-25-2005, 12:16 PM

I know that a lot of wrong things were done to trusting people, especially during the vears just before and after John's death in 1983. A lot of churches were shepherded by men who, in my opinion, were very insecure themselves and they probably felt very unqualified to do the job. I'm not making excuses for things that were done, I'm just giving an opinion.

Moving forward to today, I want to tell you that the TLW Fellowship is nothing like the old walk.The men and women that lead this fellowship do so with integrity. I am sure that mistakes will continue to be made, as this group sails in uncharted waters. There is a real drive in this group to pursue the Lord and find the answers that we all need to unlock the church from the futility of it's current powerless state. What are the answers to the greater works being with us again.

This group does not have a lot of money. There are no leaders getting rich off of the little people. No big mansions. In fact I think that many of the local pastors have regular full time jobs and get paid very little, if any, for pastoring. Please understand that I am not trying to defend this Fellowship, but from what I've read on these message boards, many posters here have been hurt in the past and may think that things are still the same.

One of the evangelists that was at the Shiloh summer camp a few weeks ago, prophesied that people who left the Fellowship earlier, many would return. Some of the men who were pastors of churches in CA and had left, have reestablished relations with TLW. They may not rejoin the TLW Fellowship and in many cases, they probably have moved on into their ministry, but the reconnection of these men of God says something about what God is doing right now.

It's an exciting time to be part of this group. The APCO dudes and dudettes are establishing relationships with other apostoles and evangelists from all over the place. They are then introduced to everyone at feasts and camps.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-25-2005, 03:38 PM

"This group does not have a lot of money. There are no leaders getting rich off of the little people. No big mansions. In fact I think that many of the local pastors have regular full time jobs and get paid very little, if any, for pastoring"

Ceebups,
I don't doubt this--that most of the leaders live very sacrificially. But what about the messages on these boards that claim G & M own many homes (4-5)? Are these bogus? Or, if the claims *are* correct--should it even be issue since who really knows if the money came from the fellowship? I suppose another possibility is that they don't own all these homes, but just have exclusive use of them through their position in the church.
In any event, what's your take on this? Do you think it's much to do about nothing?

ceebups (ceebups)

07-25-2005, 09:04 PM

I don't really know how many homes, if any, they own. They may have several, and if they do, that doesn't really bother me at all. Many times people in the ministry will buy real estate and create an income from rental properties. I do know that the fellowship is not flush with cash. I am aware of the body wide finances to a limited degree and there is not much there.

As I'm sure you are aware, this is a relatively small group with only a handful of churches across the country and a few overseas. Tremendous dedication and purpose though.

ceebups (ceebups)

07-26-2005, 02:12 AM

Titus: You got your thinking cap screwed on a little too tight.

ceebups (ceebups)

07-26-2005, 12:24 PM

Sorry if I offended you Titus. My experiences with the TLW Fellowship have been my personal ones, things that I have observed first hand, by being a part of the Fellowship for many years. It's a wonderful group of people.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

07-27-2005, 05:50 AM

Here is a list of Latter Rain teachings I compiled several years ago that I felt paralleled teachings in TLW. At this point, I think anyone familar with TLW knows of John's involvement with the Latter Rain movement before founding the Walk.

1. The latter rain
2. Restoration of the church
3. Restoration of the five-fold ministries
4. Pre-rapture spiritual second coming of Christ
5. New revelation and prophesy
6. Manifestation of the sons of God
7. Overcoming death before Christ's return
8. Dominion Now theology and spiritual warfare
9. Mainstream Christianity referred to
as "Old Order" or "Babylon"
10. Personal ministry - "words from God from
leaders to congregants
11. Emphasis on Jewish feasts
12. Manchild doctrine
13. Joel's army and militancy
14. Deeper levels of revelation including altered
states of consciousness
15. Incarnation of Christ in a many-membered body
16. Spiritual evolution to perfection
17. Divine order
18. Enforced unity
19. Shepherding
20. Father/son mentoring

I was involved with TLW for over 30 years and was an avid reader of John's word during that time. I honestly felt John's word was unique to him, that God had spoken to him while waiting on the Lord in a remodeled chicken coup. None of this teaching had been covered in my Baptist church so I had no reason to question the source.

My point is not that all the above teaching is false but that it did not originate with John as I was led to believe. I appreciate your input Titus and I think even a casual research of the Latter Rain movement would shed light on the roots of the Walk.

The Latter Rain movement has been around long enough to produce fruit. I guess the searcher will have to decide whether it is good fruit or not and if that is the place they want to invest their life. There are wonderful people in every group. It would be great to see an abundant harvest from those who have sown their lives into the kingdom wisely. Many people work very hard for very little return because they stray from Jesus' teaching. A little on course correction can produce rewards not only in the life to come but in this life.

I believe those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior are born into the Father's family. Jesus' prayer in John 17 was not that we'd be divided into groups but that we would be one. All the parts of the body need each other to be whole. I'm believing that in spite of all we have been through, God will make us one.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-27-2005, 03:51 PM

Larry:
"My point is not that all the above teaching is false but that it did not originate with John as I was led to believe."

John mentioned countless times that his word was groundbreaking , and viewed himself as a 'door opener'--providing access for believers to experience truths previously veiled to the church. Whether it was intentional or not, I think he projected a sense to people that much of what they were hearing had not been revealed before. It's also likely that we (those part of the group that John ministered to) helped feed this idea. You know--it's nice to be part of an elite group, rather than lumped with conventional (aka: boring) Christians. Human nature at work here.
That said, it would be interesting to note what teachings coming from John were truly unique to the Christian world at the time he spoke them. Perhaps some of his more controversial messages, ('God is Unacceptable,' 'Is God your tool or boss?'...can't remember exact titles here), ones that directly challenged Christian orthodoxy.
In any event, I do still think the key is the results of the ministry. After 50+ yrs. (he started the walk in '51) it should be clear whether the tree has born fruit. As Larry said, there's great people in every group--so that wouldn't be the criteria.

ceebups (ceebups)

07-27-2005, 08:06 PM

" After 50+ years it should be clear whether the tree has born fruit." I don't know you people, but from what I've gathered from reading your posts, you are no longer associated with the TLW Fellowship. I've said this several times before, the Fellowship today is quite different than what you may remember. That said, the direction this group is moving in is still the one that was shown to JRS. In my many years associated with TLW, I don't remember JRS claiming to be an exclusive source of revelation from God. Many times he would refer to his days with the Latter Rain movement and others. But, he was a door opener for many, and many are still with us today.

I don't think that you can accurately comment on the fruit part without current exposure.

changedagain (changedagain)

07-27-2005, 08:58 PM

"I don't remember JRS claiming to be an exclusive source of revelation from God."

Perhaps not exclusive, but he did stress there was nothing more important on the earth than the word that came from his lips. So yes, others could receive revelations from God, but he maintained that he held the keys to the KD age.
And you may have a point about the current status of the walk. Some of us posting spent 20+ yrs. in it, but have been away for awhile. So maybe there has been dramatic change beyond just people caring about their responsibilities, and not exploiting those under them in the ministry--which, I suppose, could be considered good fruit.
Another aspect of 'fruit' I think would be related to evangelism. Has the church experienced much growth (numerically) recently?
How does the numbers of people involved now compare to say the 70's, 80's or even 90's?

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

07-28-2005, 04:02 AM

Ceebups,
What can you share that has happened in the past five years that might provide hope for those who have left TLW? Many have stated that things are not the same and have changed for the better. Perhaps you could elaborate. Many who have left still have deep feelings for friends left behind (I know I do) and would like to know those friends are going to be okay and not miss out on what God is doing in the rest of the body.
Larry

ceebups (ceebups)

07-28-2005, 12:06 PM

Larry: One of the most refreshing things to me is the way the Fellowship has opened up to other ministers and groups. There has been a real effort made to help the Fellowship move into its place in the overall picture of what God has in mind for the whole planet. That may sound a bit wierd, but as I'm sure you know, we were always a cloistered bunch with very little contact with the rest of the church world.

The leadership has opened the doors to other ministers to come and help this group be more exposed. In recent years, evangelists have attended the Shiloh summer camp and ministered the word. This is awesome and we all love it. We need this and the church needs us. We are a piece of the puzzle. There is also great care given so that we do not lose our identity. That unique gift that God has given us. I'm sure that we will always be considered strange to many in the christian world, but this group has set its will to walk out the mission that God has put before us.

daikon (daikon)

07-30-2005, 04:16 AM

Cool.

People are talking again. And (way cool) it seems to be a thoughtful discussion.

larry bobo, i read most of the boards re: TLW

you have consistently been a voice with reason.

not perfect (as if i knew... she laughs) dude, but genuinely heartfelt

I wish I could just hug you and let you know.. there's no big bad "they", we survived bro. thank God. hope the best for everyone we have ever known who once or always seeks the Truth.

(Message edited by daikon on July 29, 2005)

ceebups (ceebups)

08-02-2005, 10:14 PM

TLW ROCKS!!! (just keeping this board alive)

daikon (daikon)

08-04-2005, 09:20 PM

Hey ceebups
interesting name....

I was just looking at TLW website and I was disappointed. When you click on What's New... you still get newsletters from 2001.

The way I came to this site was after going there and reading all there was (the Shiloh programs part was cool)... so I Googled TLW and it brought me here.

I am a former member who has no particular problem with the group and a lot of what I have read on these boards has required both the scent of discernment and the sight of perception.

You say TLWF has changed. Well, you may not be the person who can do it or know the person(s) who can... but wouldn't it be beneficial to update the LW website.

Just a thought.

Peace

winterland (winterland)

08-05-2005, 04:48 AM

Larry: I'd like to echo daikon's post regarding you. You always are a voice with reason. My husband and I have really enjoyed what you have posted here.

Ceebups: "There is also great care given so we do not lose our identity. That unique gift that God has given us".
What do you think is the LWF unique gift and identity?

"One of the evangelists that was at the Shiloh summer camp a few weeks ago, prophesied that people who left the fellowship earlier, many would return."
I think a lot of us reading this board would fit into that category. I was thinking about some of the characteristics I'd look for in a movement if I was going to affiliate myself with them.

1. I wouldn't want a person to be an intermediary between myself and Jesus Christ. 1Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

2. I'd want the emphasis to be on bringing people into maturity and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. All of us from the walk should know this verse by heart: Eph 4:11-13 "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints, for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith AND OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."

3. I'd like to see an approach where respect is given to the treasure in one another. I'd like to see an atmosphere where people can express their personal witness on something without fear of shunning and rejection. 2Tim 1:14 "GUARD through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you."

Ceebups, or anyone else from TLW, are these current practices of TLW?

I'd love to hear what the rest of you are looking for?

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

08-05-2005, 06:44 AM

Isolation by a group from the rest of the body of Christ is certainly not unique to TLW. I can remember as a child asking my parents why the Baptists were the only ones going to heaven even though I had friends who had also accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior but attended different churches. It doesn't seem to matter too much until you're the one excluded.

I don't see the scriptural basis for the various church denominations. In fact, if anything, I see them at best, evidence of immaturity (1 Cor. 1:10-13, 1 Cor. 3:1-7) or at worst, evidence of the sinful nature (Gal. 5:19-22). God certainly places us in the body as it pleases Him and has created us to serve as different functions (hand, foot, eye, etc.) but He doesn't isolate us from each other or there wouldn't be a body.

Ephesians 4:3-6 says, "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

I've heard the explanation that being separate would preserve uniqueness. If you cut off a hand to preserve it's uniqueness it eventually dies and stops being a hand. It doesn't do the hand or the rest of the body any good. All the parts of the body need all the other parts to be whole and maintain a healthy life. "The eye cannot say to the hand,"I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" (1 Cor. 12:12-27)

Is leaving or returning to a certain fellowship equated with leaving or returning to the Father's family or are these just human clubs that exclude or include others for a sense of self-importance for the club members? I'm curious how these clubs build up the body of Christ until we ALL reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ if we are not supplying what the other parts need and receiving from others what we need?

ceebups (ceebups)

08-05-2005, 11:57 AM

Daikon: I'm pretty sure the general web site is under redesign right now. There is a members web site that has very current info such as announcments, photos, feast schedules, and stuff like that.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-05-2005, 12:06 PM

Winterland: IMHO, one of TLW's unique gift from God is worship. I've been in many different churches around the country and have experienced wonderful worship expressed different ways. The awesome worship that God has brought to the TLW fellowship is what does it for me.

daikon (daikon)

08-05-2005, 02:10 PM

larry,
I hear you --"just human clubs that exclude or include others for a sense of self importance for the club members"
I think that hits the nail on the head of the big lie that became the division of Christ's body, the church.
I've spent some time roaming around this website and I am continually stunned by how divisive the Christian family is (by the way, TLW fares pretty well -- even in the posts from it's harshest critics -- compared to some of the groups and practices discussed on FACTnet).

I (inmho) believe we are in the Father's family because of what is in our individual hearts. Where and who we congregate with will always be secondary to God -- who we love with all our heart, soul and strength. Oh, that we could "get" the love our neighbor as ourself part... that's the rub.

winterland -- I certainly bear witness to what the evangelist spoke. TLW has been on my mind and in my spirit's eye a lot in the last three or four months.
I agree with your points about the attributes of a congregation I'd seek out.

ceebups - Oh yes -- the worship, it's what I miss the most and what may eventually draw me back (however, see my comment and winterland's description above -- there are probably a great number of true heart believers who would concur).

As far as the website -- I hope it's being updated.
A members [only] site, like you have to have the secret handshake or something?
Peace

ceebups (ceebups)

08-05-2005, 03:04 PM

Daikon: Just keep seeking Him, and if He leads you back to TLW, maybe we'll meet. If not, I'll see you on the other side.

daikon (daikon)

08-05-2005, 03:24 PM

ceebups.. I really want to know. Does the "members web site" require a password or something?
I'd like to look it up if it's available to the public. I guess what I'm showing here is my first-grader way of using the internet.
If it's just a Google away, then -- my bad.

Maybe I'll know you some day. You in So Cal?
Peace

ceebups (ceebups)

08-05-2005, 08:09 PM

daikon....yes, a password is required. I'm in the midwest.

winterland (winterland)

08-05-2005, 08:09 PM

I'm really enjoying everything everyone has to say. It reminds me of something that Grocho Marx said once......I'd never join a club that would have me as a member.

daikon (daikon)

08-07-2005, 07:04 PM

Funny, winterland...

I thought of that same quote.

ceebups...

So, if a member became a non-member or told a non-member the password, would it be necessary to change the password? Seems like a lot of work.
No disrespect, but can't you all just talk to each other?
And get Rick or some other media savvy member to update your face-to-the-world site...

Just a thought.

Love

changedagain (changedagain)

08-07-2005, 11:58 PM

What if a non-member becomes a member just to get the password and then abruptly leaves becoming a non-member?
What about that?

ceebups (ceebups)

08-08-2005, 01:09 AM

This whole password thing is not some super secret site access for top secret information. You even need a password to post here, and at many sites that I'm sure you all visit. The members site has information that church members would find helpful and informative. Such as wedding announcements and death notices, special events at local churches. There is also an area of members birthdays. There is a chat area for people to post similar to here. The internet is open to everyone as you know, so a little security is a good thing in my opinion.

daikon (daikon)

08-08-2005, 06:58 PM

ceebups...
I actually was trying to be funny like a Groucho Marx overstatement thing about the password.

And, I'd love the face-to-the-world site to be updated.

Only comment to your reply is: yes indeed, I have a password here -- I (and agreed, any genius or numb nut with a PC) created my own.

Have a blessed day all you who love the Lord!
Peace

watchman (watchman)

08-10-2005, 02:11 AM

Hello,

My name is Priscilla and I found this forum while doing a search for The Living Word and John Robert Stevens.

One of my uncles helped at the Shiloh headquarters in Kalona, IA in the mid 70s when they were being built. Presently my uncle and his wife, my aunt and her husband, and another aunt, and all their children are still involved in TLW. They are preparing to make a huge move out to the church in Palmer Lake, CO.

I am researching TLW. I am looking to interview people who were once in TLW (or who are still in it), what your experience was like, how long you were in, what you remember most, what your most positive experience was, what your most negative experience was, how you feel about TLW today, and anything else that you would be willing to share.

Please email me at bobsbride2@yahoo.com.

Thank you very much!

Priscilla

travis_bickle (travis_bickle)

08-12-2005, 10:40 PM

The Walk
The Walk was organized by John Robert Stevens in 1951. He had been defrocked by the Foursquare Gospel Churches, had joined the Assemblies of God, and was defrocked again, this time for his involvement in the Latter Rain teachings (Nichols). As Stevens got further into the Latter Rain, he developed his own extensions of it.

He came to teach that all the regular denominations were of the Old Order, were Babylonish, and worldly, and largely apostate. God was using The Walk to establish a New Order, and eventually they would "birth" the Manifested Sons, of whom Stevens would be the first. He claimed to be an Apostle and Prophet, and gave out endless taped revelations, many of them transcribed into dozens of booklets. Documentation on this Latter Rain variant is therefore easily obtainable, and has been available to interested researchers for thirty years.

Stevens' most serious (and aberrantly fruitful) blunder was his decision that the spiritual practices and forces of Occultism are really "neutral" and that therefore the methods of the occult should also be used by Christians to help them achieve a similar or even better "spirituality." In fact, he said that Satan originally stole these methods from the righteous. Believers should therefore study the occult and appropriate their techniques, reclaiming their use for God.

JRS taught that God will bless this syncretism, and the Latter Rain fire will fall at last, birthing the perfected Church. The Walk will be (literally) glorified into the Manifested Sons, thereby becoming themselves the Parousia (the Second Coming) of Christ, itself the Manchild Company (Nichols' SCP report).

Stevens even said that communication with Angels and deceased believers had already become possible. Paul Cain and Bob Jones have been talking with Angels regularly for decades, of course. Stevens claimed communication himself with the "great cloud of witnesses."

travis_bickle (travis_bickle)

08-12-2005, 10:49 PM

Consider the following:

Cult members are “focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.” The leader is a strong-willed, domineering character who rules the group with tight control.
He lets it be known in subtle ways that he is “in charge” of the movement. He makes the plans, he orchestrates the movements of the group or groups (sometimes he exercises his sway over several groups). He dispatches the workers, assigns their chores, etc.

Frequently, they even begin to imitate his mannerisms in terms of voice inflection, language patterns, aggressive attitudes, etc. They become “clones” of their esteemed leader. It is not uncommon that the leader knows of weaknesses or past problems of people with his group. Thus, through subtle intimidation and fear he keeps them under his control.

“Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged,” and there can be pressure or social punishment when there is disagreement with the “boss.” Those who disagree are made to feel as though they are stupid or inept. They are brainwashed with the notion that they do not have the knowledge or experience to question the leader.
Younger people are particularly vulnerable to the leader’s “gift of gab,” and his feigned expertise. No matter how radical the leader becomes in his decisions or actions, the cult members will not criticize him. Even if there should be mild disagreement, no specific expressions are voiced. The members reason that though he may be mistaken in some of his judgments, yet the overall good he accomplishes outweighs any minor flaws.

Members are taught to “rationalize” the conduct of the leader in matters they have always “considered unethical before,” under the guise that the “end justifies the means.”

The leader “is preoccupied with [raising] money.” There is always a need for increasing finances. New projects are ever in the planning. Members are strongly encouraged to greatly sacrifice for the leader’s current “pet” enterprise. There is little pressure let-up; members of the group must be kept “revved up” on a continual basis.
The cult leader always takes the major credit for the movement’s accomplishments. Members become psychologically dependent upon him. “What would we ever do without our leader?,” is the cult mentality.

The cult leader generates within his members “a polarized” mentality. His people evolve an “us-versus-them” mentality. Little-by-little he criticizes other groups with which his members might tend to associate, undermining confidence in them, attempting to discredit anyone who could have influence over his “flock.”
Cult members become suspicious; they imbibe the critical disposition. No one is really as “sound” as “we” are. We are an “elitist” group. And so, seeds of isolationism are sown. The movement leader discourages reading any material, examining any ideas that he does not generate. He seeks to control the inflow of knowledge relative to “his group.”

Kip McKean actually has charged his followers not to read certain books dealing with “mind control,” characterizing any breach of this rule as “sin” (Steve Hassan, Releasing the Bonds, p. xvii). “Jehovah’s Witnesses” generally will not read any literature other than that published by the Watch Tower association.

The cult leader has a clearly defined “anti-authoritarian” disposition. Within the context of the church, for instance, he would have an “anti-elder” attitude. Elders would be recipients of constant critical remarks. No cult leader would affiliate himself with a congregation having elders to whom he must be in submission. “Control” could not be maintained in such an environment.
The cult leader would constantly criticize preachers, particularly those whose knowledge of the Scriptures eclipse his own. Members must be made to feel that he is the “chief authority” in spiritual matters.

Cult members are seen occasionally to take on a new personality. They begin to act differently. They become increasingly antagonistic to family members and long-time friends. They may even boast that, “I am not the old [name] that you used to know; I am a new person now.” And indeed they are. They have become strangers to those who knew them well. They have been transformed into the image of their leader.

travis_bickle (travis_bickle)

08-12-2005, 10:57 PM

THE WALK
Also known as the Church of the Living Word, this cult is led by "Apostle" John Robert Stevens. At least 100 churches in the United States are allied with this "restoration movement."

Although The Walk publicly denies sanctioning any extrabiblical revelation, Stevens claims that "God has given the apostolic ministry a unique ability to break into new levels in God and then impart them to the people." The elite members of the organization are known as the "apostolic company, " and they reportedly receive "new levels of revelation" on a regular basis. All members of The Walk are expected to submit to such revelations.

Stevens, like many other cult leaders, is extremely intolerant of individuality. He wrote a book in 1977 called "From Many Comes One, " in which he claims that "the day of individuality is ending. Christ is coming to be glorified in His saints, not that a lot of individuals will be running around with Christ glorified in them, but that they will lose their own identity as saints...God does not seem interested in giving His people anything as individuals to make them happy and contented... God does not want to protract the problem of individuality." From an orthodox Christian standpoint, Stevens' description of Christ is disturbingly similar to that of "Big Brother" of George Orwell's "1984."

Stevens also places a strong emphasis on authority and subjection, and exhorts members of the cult to totally submit to himself and the "apostolic company, " using the rationale of "Divine Right" used by kings in the Middle Ages to cement their authority over their subjects: "Those who are submissive will accept a word of authority over them, even when that word is wrong...If the Lord has revealed the authority over you, you can be submissive, even when the authority deviates from the will of God. In other words, you can receive some wrong words of direction and still be a winner." One pastor in The Walk even claimed that he "would follow Brother Stevens to hell" and be honored by God for submitting to the will of Stevens.

The Walk is also involved in psychic and borderline occult practices. Stevens tells his followers that "In your present state, even though you are a Christian, your eyes are still not seeing the spirit world, your ears are not hearing the spirit world...You must work your way up to the higher plane." Members of the cult practice such rituals as the "glory chain, " which can supposedly be used to transfer God's blessings through people. This is done by placing the right hand, palm up, underneath another cultist's left hand (also palm up) and transferring the blessing through the back of his hand. Stevens also teaches that astral projection can be performed, and cites I Corinthians 5:3-4 for support, claiming that Paul was able to project his soul to Corinth from a distant point.

Martha Stevens, who was married to Apostle Stevens for 40 years, filed for divorce in 1979. During the proceedings, she revealed that Stevens' holdings could amount to $40 million. A California newspaper then launched an investigation of the Church of the Living Word, and learned that it had conducted a Nevada silver mine fraud that allegedly cheated members of the cult out of at least $500, 000. Stevens also possessed an extensive art collection and $29, 000 in silver bars, and hired an attorney for the divorce suit, paying him $10,000 plus $125 per hour. Martha claims, "My husband has total control of the church and its funds, and total access to all church finances. He is, in essence, the church himself."

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

08-15-2005, 06:24 AM

Hi Travis,
Much of what you have stated has already been posted many times on the several Factnet threads addressing the Living Word. Those who have left the fellowship and have done a little research are familiar with what you have posted. Those who are still in the fellowship only see this as a personal attack originating in satanic assault against the "true word" of the kingdom.

After several years of being involved in more mainstream Christianity, I find myself embarassed by how far off track I allowed myself to become from the Bible following TLW teaching. The whole time I assumed I had a much deeper revelation of the scriptures than I really had. I felt it was an expression of faith to hang in there without any fulfillment to what I thought were words from God. In the meanwhile, I was walking a fleshly life thinking I could ignore Jesus commands (as just being religious) as long as I was connected to the leadership. That certainly did not work out very well for me.

Now I realize that you can recognize a true word from God by the fact that it always comes to pass. God isn't wandering around in confusion constantly trying to figure out a new direction for fulfillment. He knows what He is doing and it never changes. Even though we as humans may be unfaithful, He is always faithful and His intentions and word toward us never change. If we allow a human to take His place, it only produces human fruit, not a divine nature.

I know there is an "enlightenment" that comes from John Steven's word but I also think it's very deceptive. As Jesus said, you have to look at the fruit. John said that if they carry me out feet first, this word is not true. I would submit that they did carry him out feet first and parts of this "word" are not true. It's keeping a part of the Father's family out of circulation with the rest of the body of Christ.

I can remember moving into a "new realm" every several weeks in my 30+ years involvement in the walk. If in fact this were the case, people should be gradually living longer and healthier as they move into "resurrection life". A little honesty would reveal that there is no physical manifestation of that "word" whatsoever, only the imaginations of deception. The feigned control of the nations is not even seriously impacting the individuals lives for the better. How does God's kingdom impact the nations if can't impact our personal lives?

I've found much more growth as a result of connection with other parts of the body. Many of the words that are only fantasy in TLW are beginning to take place in other parts of the body. For example, my pastor conferences with President Bush by phone weekly as well as having met with several world leaders over the last several months. Some of these meetings have involved national economic issues well beyond the scope of a local pastor. The world is beginning to seek direction from men of God who have influence and a word of knowledge that is true.

God does want His kingdom to influence the earth but it happens by character not fantasy. After seeing thousands of people come into the kingdom in my local church and their lives radically changed for the good, it's not much of a comparison with TLW facility in Palmer Lake I was a part of where I am not aware of even one local person becoming a part of the kingdom of God. Somehow, in dreamland, they think it's taking over the world. It's just sad. The other local churches in the area just view them as being some poor cult and don't take them seriously.

Thanks for posting.
Take care,
Larry

winterland (winterland)

08-16-2005, 12:35 AM

Hello everyone,

One thing finding this site has done for me is that it has made me think a lot about what I experienced when I was in the Living Word. Everything I write is just my personal experience and opinions and I know you all have your own stories. I was never a recognized ministry or anywhere near the inner circle. I was the smallest of the little people--a young, single woman with no family ties in tlw.

Most mainstream christian churches believe that you build strong churches by having strong individual members. They strenghen their members by teaching personal salvation through Jesus Christ, individual growth through personal bible study, perhaps a personal experience of infilling with the Holy Spirit. The focus is on the individual experience, and a "one to one" personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It seems to me that the Living Word has had a little different slant. I'm not saying that they don't believe in the things I mentioned in the previous paragraph, they do. But their emphasis is on the individual member becoming a part of the larger corporate church ministry. You "lose" your personal self to become a part of this greater calling.

TLW believes that they are a spearhead ministry. They are on the leading edge of what is happening in the spirit. And as they break through into new ground in the spirit, other christian groups will be able to walk in areas they have pioneered. A sort of "first fruits"ministry. Do you remember the teaching on the pattern of the restoration?

I'm not here to say what they believe is right or wrong, it's just what they believe.

I think because they have had such a focus on what the "group ministry" is, perhaps they have neglected some of the "fundamentals" I mentioned in the second paragraph. I have heard that there is a renewed teaching on salvation and water baptism in tlw. And I rejoice in the steps they are making in trying to become more mainstream.

This group was always different. This is what attracted a lot of us in the 60's and 70's. A lot of people came into the walk that would never have fit into a more traditional church. Because they've never been mainstream, is it suprizing that they would be "extreme" in some of their teaching.

It is wonderful to hear the good reports coming out of tlw, from ceebups and others. And I have heard personally some wonderful reports of what is happening in individual lives. I don't believe the Lord is finished with tlw yet. Let's give it time. The Lord's work is slow, thorough,and perfect.

I'm praying that the Lord's perfect will will come forth there, and I don't want to judge the way that will come to pass.

I'm not addressing any issues here, but am just relaying general observations from my experience.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-16-2005, 12:47 PM

Winterland: IMHO your post is very kind and accurate. There are wonderful changes taking place in the fellowship. As I mentioned in previous posts, the opening up to different ministeries and groups is helping lots. This is a necessiary step for us and I believe that it is progressing well and all the churches in the fellowship will benefit.

The ministeries that visit us all seem to recognise that we have some unique gifts (such as the worship level that God has revealed) that need to be expressed to the whole church community. Our willingness to submit to one another as unto the Lord is not a popular trait, especially in these posting rooms, and in the past I know it was abused by many. But I do know that submission and obedience will always be important qualities for a kingdom walk with God, and it can be too easy to just have everyone say they are hearing from God themselves to do this or that. The ultimate goal is for everyone to mave as mature sons, but getting there is a process.

I've been with this group for many years and like you, I'm not a recognized ministry so we've probably never met. I am very excited about what I see happening now. We have a lot to contribute to other movements and we also are a very needy group. I think that we can learn many things from others that will help us. For example, I've always been impressed by the way the Methodist Church and other denominations have constructed beautiful senior living facilities and old age homes. Many of the walk people are now in their 50's and 60's and they should have a place to spend their golden years together if they want to. Currently there isn't anything like that. That bothers me. There are many things like this that I hope will change as we continue on the journey.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-17-2005, 09:32 AM

To be a Christian, as I understand Christ, means the acceptance of the absolute authority of Jesus in all of my life. It means that in everything I am and do—when I eat and drink, when I buy and sell, when I work and play, when I read and think—that I look to Jesus as my Master. It means that I enthrone Him as King in my affections; that I subject my friendships to His dominion; that I conduct my business and my intellectual and social life under His inspection and direction. It means that my ruling passion—the passion that shall absorb all other interests shall be to live my whole life under the sovereignty of Jesus. It means that I honor His name above every other name, and place obedience to Him above every other obligation.

To be a Christian means that I am no more my own man, but Christ’s man. It means the giving of myself away to Him, so that I have no more right or title to myself; so that I have no more claim upon myself, and am no more at my own disposal. To be a Christian means to belong body and soul to Christ, now and evermore, for Him to do with me as He wills.

Hence, it means that in being Christ’s man, I am set free from all fear. My joy must be in doing His will, in being His slave, in the confidence that whatever comes to me, when following Him, is His doing. In a real sense, I make Him responsible for my life. I am responsible for following, He is responsible for leading and keeping. It can be none of my business what happens to me, what I gain or lose, when I follow Him. That is Christ’s business. It is His to command, mine to obey. I am sure He will not waste a fragment of my life if I let Him possess and direct it. I am also sure it will be mainly waste, friction, vain striving and misdirected effort, sickening failure and defeated ambition if I try to direct my own life.

My part as a Christian is not to find out the opinions of men, but to keep my eyes fixed on Christ, to let my mind dwell on Him, having a constant mental vision of His character; to make His life the food on which my soul shall live; to make His gospel the textbook and authority by which I stand or fall.

Written by JRS when he was 14 years old.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

08-18-2005, 06:00 AM

I've always loved John's "To be a Christian". I think it expresses what a true disciple of Christ believes. I wonder who was John's christ and by what gospel he stood or fell. How could he possibly come into a relationship with Jesus without christ in the flesh directing what color car he bought or a designated relationship revealing the hidden truths of the TLW tape library that show how the people are to serve and enrich the leadership while neglecting each other. (I think the revelation is from Ezekiel 34)

Obviously he must have been an anarchist only wanting his own will. It would be foolish to try to walk with God in the sky (if there even is such a thing) and read your Bible for yourself - or would it? Only low level Christians would even attempt such foolishness - right? Doesn't everyone need the opinions of men to get them through the difficult times. Certainly John was only joking about keeping his eyes fixed on Jesus. He must have really meant Jesus in his shepherd. Afterall, it's soooo scarey to try to think for yourself. You might have to grow up and accept responsibility for your own life and walk with God and that's far too much work.

Actually, I think you'd really like it. Sorry for the blasphemy - I couldn't resist. Perhaps my big juicey steak just got the best of me and led me into rebellion against the "true knowledge" of De-pork Choke-ya. However, I did have a salad with it so you don't lose all respect for me.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-18-2005, 03:12 PM

larry.....easy there big guy...don't blow a gasket! But really....next time buy a red car.

daikon (daikon)

08-18-2005, 11:06 PM

travis bickle -- good, you can cut and paste. Personally I would rather hear what you actually think. Do you have a revelation to share?

winterland -- always appreciate your thoughtful posts.

larry (oh larry) -- sarcasm may not be your forte. Especially when there have been so many more appropriate times for it than replying to "To be a Christian...".

Also, at the risk of inciting you or anyone -- your pastor conferences with President Bush? Has he prayed with the man; led him to the Lord for repentance for the duplicity, the half truths and the outright lies coming from him and the administration he heads?

It's not the politics I question...

To be honest, I'm not a fan of politics or politicians in general... don't go calling me a liberal or a conservative for that matter. I'm a Christian and then I'm an American. Just that.

...It is the we-can't-possibly-make-a-wrong-move attitude this administration barrels on with, full speed ahead without stopping to assess the situation humbly. A spirit of pride and arrogance does not sing the Lord's praises.

Of course I, little ol' me still respects you (though I know you were talking to ceebups)... except dude, you made me hungry. How about onion rings, did ya' have any of those?

ceebups -- hey. Thanks for posting "To be a Christian..." A fond remembrance indeed, I love that piece.

Peace all
God bless you

(Message edited by daikon on August 18, 2005)

winterland (winterland)

08-18-2005, 11:34 PM

I'm glad people are continuing to post here. It is hard to keep a discussion going if no one participates. One trait that people that were or are involved in the walk have incommon is we are all whole hearted, passionate and full of zeal. That characteristic is probably why tlw is known for its wonderful worship.

Ceebups, I'm glad my post from Aug. 15 came through the way I wanted it to. It is a challenge to write and have your point come across the way you want it to.

There could also be a real generation gap here and everyone's personal experiences are different. I was in the walk from 1970 until John's death so I have no information about tlw except what I have heard 2nd hand through friends that still have family involved or through what I have read here. Understandably, it is hard to speak about anything if you haven't experienced it yourself.

The most impostant thing that I took out of my time in the walk was the teaching on the Lordship of Jesus Christ. When John Stevens was alive this was very much emphasized. John used to talk about his experience working with a healing/evangelist when he was a young man. John saw how this ministry would take the attention and glory for the healing ministry. John was so much turned off by this experience that he refused to even have his picture taken. He wanted people to look only to the word and not to the man. That may have been an extreme reaction to a situation but everything in the walk was whole hearted.

If you grew up under John's ministry it is hard not to react if you believe some man is taking the glory that belongs to the Lord. John felt that this was something very much to be on guard against. I think this is why a lot of us sort of "react" to hearing about attention being put on the leadership or on relationships in the body instead of on the Lord. The focus of the walk when I was involved was very much--the Lord alone must be glorified.

The challenge comes in giving everything the correct priority. If these other things are taking the first place that belongs to the Lord, then everything else gets screwed up. Yes, it is important to pray for the leaders, yes our relationship with people in the body of Christ is important, yes submission has a big place. But when anything draws you away from your primary, personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then you leave the door open for problems.

I hope this gives some of the "younger generation" some understanding of us "golden agers." (According to ceebups, the 50ish and 60ish group. I loved that comment, ceebups, I got a real laugh out of that.)

Love to everyone. Let's keep talking

ceebups (ceebups)

08-19-2005, 02:05 AM

I am enjoying reading these posts, sure wish I could type better. Takes me forever to post something. Oh well....here goes.

The reason that I pasted To Be A Christian was not only because it's such a beautiful declaration, but because JRS wrote it when he was 14. To me that is amazing. When I was 14, I don't think God was even on my radar screen. Football, girls, hunting, fishing, and motorcycles were my top 5.

I've been a part the fellowship since 1978. Like most of you, I remember the all nights of intercession for JRS and the hard labor at Shiloh and other places. I have always been impressed by the tremendous level of dedication of the people in the fellowship. Not only in the ministeries, but all. When JRS died in 1983 that was a devistating for most ones. We had prayed so hard, but our apostle was gone. I remember the night I got the news that he died. I just drove around all night long crying and asking God why. I never knew JRS personally, but I knew him through his word.

For me this is still the place to be. I love the worship and the level of the word is great. In spite of everything that has happened over the years, good and bad, God is still very much has His hand on this fellowship. It's an honor for me to be part of this group.

I've read many of the posts where people were really treated wrong and even abused and taken advantage of in previous times. I am very sorry that these things happened and I hope that God has them on a good path now.

As I've said before, the TLW fellowship is very different now, but the Lordship of Jesus Christ, which JRS always kept before us, is still the goal. There are many groups and churches seeking His way, and I hope you all are blessed with a good spiritual family to relate with.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

08-19-2005, 05:23 AM

Hey Daikon,
Just so I don't confuse the point, I really do love John's "To Be A Christian". It expresses what I feel a true walk with God is all about. I was being light hearted about taking the place Jesus is supposed to have in our lives and giving it to another human. I happen to think it's idolotry now. It just produces human fruit no matter how much they may genuinely care about us. No doubt, there can be some value depending on how together your designated relationship is. For me it's kind of like some country music. If your life is bad enough, country music will encourage you. "There's a tear in my ear from laying on my back and crying over you." seems depressing to me - reminds me of my old shepherd in the walk. Sorry country music fans - I did say some, not all.

I also think the emphasis on diet is a joke and will also not produce a new nature - just more ties to the new age movement. It's just more bondage that will not produce the fruit people are being promised. In all fairness, maybe some have broken into resurrection by their diet after I left and I'm just not aware of it. If so, let me know so I can follow the white buffalo into the kingdom with you. Hopefully, it hasn't died since I last heard about it on a tape. We'll all be without hope.

I honestly don't think John was substituting a human for Jesus at the time he wrote this. At the time I left the walk, God in the sky was belittled in favor of God in the flesh who was manifesting in the leadership. This of course was in the new leadership because the last dozen or so leaders were all false shepherds. The only responsibilty Apco had was to get rid of them even though Apco was who put them there in the first place and demanded everyone submit to them. One of my friends still in the walk said "Why should I read my Bible when I can spend time with Christ in the flesh. (He was referring to his pastor.) Do you think the disciples would have read their Bibles instead of spending time with Jesus?" Do you really think this is the gospel John was referring to or was he reading his Bible? I seem to remember it being a big deal to John when people didn't bring their Bibles to services and relied on him to read to them. Anybody else remember that?

As far as the Republican/Democrat thing is concerned, it's a no win deal. I think there are good and bad things on both sides of the asile. I did notice that I personally switched sides after I started supplying more than I was receiving from the government as a business owner. Since I now only work half days (12 hrs) I am more than willing to help some poor soul not have to work at all. I happen to like Bush, but that's just me.

As far as my pastor is concerned, he's met with the Israeli Prime Minister and had input on the Jews leaving the Gaza strip, helped with the writing of the constitution for the Ukraine, asked to make suggestions to the Financial Ministry of Nigeria to name a few. We've had all the major TV networks in the US as well as some foreign countries in services (It's kind of weird worshipping with a TV camera in your face.) My point is not the policies of President Bush, but that men of God are having an impact in national affairs. The walk pretended to have an impact on world financial markets while many in their fifties were still trying to figure out how to purchase their first house after being trained in "kingdom" businesses. There have been some tremendous gains by Christians in especially Nigeria, which now has the largest local church in the world - 1.2 million people. Can you imagine the opportunity to become a prophet cleaning all those bathrooms?

Take care,
Larry

winterland (winterland)

08-19-2005, 07:00 PM

Ceebups; I think everyone loves "To be a Christian" and you are right, it is amazing that John wrote that when he was 14 years old. I didn't know that, so thanks for that information.

I lived in Shiloh/Washington, Iowa for five years and had the wonderful experience of getting to know John's father "Dad Stevens" He was a wonderful, compassionate man. I never knew his wife because she died the same week I moved to Shiloh. You were amazed at the maturity in the Lord of John when he was 14. Dad Stevens was well in his 80's when I knew him, but he loved to tell stories of his early days pioneering a church in the town of Washington. He was a wonderful story teller. John Stevens's great grandfather was also a circuit-riding preacher. So there was a lot of faith and dedication to the Lord in the family. I know that Dad Stevens wrote at least one book that told about his life in the ministry that I have read as well. A whole family history of people being faithful to the Lord in their lives and being a part of what God was doing in their generation.

I don't know if any of you are fans of the musicals of the 1950's and 1960's but there is a song I was thinking about from the "Sound of Music" this morning. There is a line in this song that says----nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could. So I think it is good to remember that John Stevens ministry was, at least in part, the product of the faith and dedication of his parents and family.

Ceebups, all this time I thought you were a woman. Then I read your interests when you were 14 and you don't sound like a woman. I guess we never know who we're writing to here. Are you a still fan of motorcycles? My husband and I love our motorcycle. Unfortunately, living here in winterland, we have a short riding season.

Larry; A sad story about the man who didn't think it was important to read his Bible. One thing about the Living Word, they are always pursuing what is new in the spirit. The negative side of that is they may sometimes throw out some good things because they consider them "old order". I have a friend of a friend who is very concerned because the family member still in tlw "doesn't ever open a Bible" That is a quote from this person. so I know it is a concern that others on the "outside" have as well.

I was talking to the wife of one of the pastors quite a few years ago after my husband and I were no longer in the walk. I mentioned to this lady that we were having family devotions in our home with our children and were studying some of the living word manuals as the basis for our study. Her responce was "why do you want to study the old word." She thought the current word was much richer than what had come in the past. This was her opinion I am sure. But I am just telling this story to illustrate a tendancy of tlw to always discard the old for the new.

I know that now in a more mature time of my life, my personal study of the bible is one of the greatest blessings in my life. My husband and I try to read a chapter a day together and we study on our own as well. It is amazing how relevant it is to the questions you have right now in your life. If you prayerfully ask the Lord He will speak to you through his word. I can't imagine now not having this source of feeding in my life.

I'm sure people in tlw are met by their relationships in the body. But if they could moderate their beliefs a little and not go overboard on the latest emphasis. That was the case at least when I was there. I don't know if it still is or not. I want to use all of the means that the Lord has given us to bring us into maturity.

Ceebups, I'm glad you are finding the word rich in tlw today. I think a lot of finding a place of feeding is having a relationship with the leaders. That is true in every church. I have no relationship with G and M so I don't think I would find their word as rich as you do. Nothing against anyone, I'm just not a part of the walk culture now. But I think it is wonderful when anyone is able to find a place where they fit in. I always appreciate your positive comments.

owl (owl)

08-19-2005, 07:22 PM

There has never been in my experience the issue of not reading the Bible. In fact, it is consistently encouraged. People bring their Bibles to services, take notes, go back and research. Concondances are standard in everyone's library. Printed Words always include Scripture references to back up spoken word teachings. If people aren't into the Scriptures, it's personal preference rather than a taught mindset. (just this reporter's personal observation in several venues over the last 30 years)

changedagain (changedagain)

08-19-2005, 09:09 PM

Well, here's my 20+ yrs. of observation worth: the current word was emphasized much more than the Bible. The thinking was, that just like the disciples were O.K. not being versed in the Torah since they were receptive to Christ (except that one guy), so present day disciples would be fine by just receiving and obeying the words of the ministries. To take this approach one must believe your overseerers are the equivalent, or manifestation, of Christ.
Of course, there were those--a decided minority IMO--that felt both (Bible and current teaching) were indispensable. Owl, you obviously fit in that latter category.
An interesting poll might be querying present day members of TLW to see how many hrs. (minutes, seconds) they spend reading the Bible per week--vs. time spent laboring in the church or listening to the 'ministries.' A polygraph could me administered later to help insure accuracy of results.
BTW, Ceebups...I too, for some reason, thought you were female. What perception I possess!
(I'm pretty sure Larry is male, though).

daikon (daikon)

08-19-2005, 09:52 PM

larry,
I do hear you. I haven't been involved in the Walk for quite a while so my experience with "designated relationships" and that line of following-the-human-thinking is non existent. I have to say I am grateful for that; I was never good at the salute.
I truly agree about the diet thing. I mean, I actually love alfalfa sprouts, but I was serious as an Iowa storm -- give 'em to me on the salad alongside the juicy steak and I really want some onion rings with that. God did give us incisors. And salvation in the spirit, thank you dear Lord. Amen.

Politics, it's all such a bag of tricks. Really -- we already got religion on this board, probably best to drop that other hot topic (I was gonna say potato, but then you would be praying for my unnatural obsession with food!!Ha!)

I do remember JRS getting testy as a bull, the man would snort and get close to head butt stance when he didn't see Bibles in people's hands during service -- I remember that especially in little close quarters Grace Chapel. I still have my NAS from that time and the thing is all marked up.

God Bless you brother.

daikon (dang, even my screenname is food!!!)

changedagain (changedagain)

08-20-2005, 12:02 AM

Ceebups,
White male in his mid-50's I think was sufficient. I don't think it was necessary to call attention to your weight.
BTW, do have any moles?
Ah, nevermind. I suppose it doesn't add or subtract from your credibility.

changedagain,
(sitting on a nicely upholstered blue chair in computer room)

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

08-20-2005, 05:47 AM

Changedagain,
Larry is definitely male - although thinking back, I did do a successfull short stint submitting to my wife a few years back when the walk leadership was going through some confusion about sexual roles. Apparently it's all straightened out and Marilyn is now one of the apostolic fathering ministries or so my former corporation documents state. Gosh, I do love the feel of silk against my .... oh never mind.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-20-2005, 02:48 PM

larry...in light of all the sarcastic crying and whining that you do..maybe your pastor should spend more time working with you instead of President Bush.

winterland (winterland)

08-20-2005, 08:16 PM

Ceebups, You are definitely the most misunderstood person on this board. First there was the C-cups fiasco. Where your name was misread and now your gender is misunderstood. We still love you whatever your age, weight or sex. And I always appreciate hearing something positive from you about tlw. I hate to think that a movement that I loved so much has evolved to become something negative, so I like the balance of your opinions.

Thanks for the information on the internet sight. I will definitely check it out with my husband. That Smokey Mountain ride sounds fabulous. I have a book from National Geographic that tells about America's most Scenic Highways. That Smokey Mountain Highway is featured and I have read about it. It is supposed to be really beautiful in the fall.

We have such a short summer up here in the North. My husband and I took a camping trip on the motorcycle a couple of weeks ago and rode from Banff to Jasper Alberta. We camped halfway along the way and woke up to a half an inch of ice on our tent in the morning. We had freezing rain during the night. Luckily, it melted pretty quickly once the sun rose over the mountains and it was a nice trip. We also had a high of 42degrees here a couple of days ago but the forecast is for 70ish for the rest of the weekend.

I hope you'll let us know when you do leave. This board wouldn't be the same without you. What would we talk about? We might have to go back to politics.

Changed again; I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that about ceebups. I just assumed that someone that positive had to be really young.

Owl; I'm glad you're back. I wondered where your were.

Everyone; I thought I would put out this question as a subject for discussion. What things have you taken out of the Living Word that you think are positives? What things have you taken out of the Living Word that you have had to change later in your life? I just like to hear other people's experiences. Bless you all.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-20-2005, 11:26 PM

Winterland: I really enjoyed reading what you posted about Dad Stevens. I remember being at Shiloh one winter in the late 70's doing construction work. The weather was very cold and the accomodations at Shiloh were pretty rough. The only showers working were the ones in the food service building. One shower for all the guys, and one for the girls. The bright spot for me was getting on the bus and going to the Washington church and listentng to Dad Stevens preach at the services. He was a very fun guy and brought a good word.

The TLW fellowship is always changing and evolving. As I've walked over the years, there have been many things that I have had difficulty with. It's like eating watermelon, you have to spit the seeds out. Even the things that larry bobo has posted recently, although his presentation is very mean spirited, many are founded in truth, or at least partial truth. I've never been a T-totaler about things. I always have to reach a comfort level myself before I can jump in. There are many positives, but I'll post later. My daughter needs the computer and I don't know how to save this and add to it later.

daikon (daikon)

08-21-2005, 12:25 AM

ceebups.
If you read larry's post to me after I mentioned sarcasm... he explains where he was coming from. I think he's using a very dry humor -- granted tinged with sarcasm, but I don't get a "mean" spirit from him.
I must also bring up -- you were more gentle with him after his "To be a Christian..." commentary than you were after his last one. Is that because he shows disdain for the current leadership structure?
Not a challenge to you brother, I'm just curious if it's of any significance...?

Bless y'all

changedagain (changedagain)

08-21-2005, 07:02 PM

When I'm negotiating with someone I can look right through them--and make them feel insignificant. It helps me get leverage in business deals & I've been making decent money.

"What things have you taken out of the Living Word that you think are positives?"

travis_bickle (travis_bickle)

08-21-2005, 10:51 PM

I have a friend who used to be with the "walk" He is ten years older than me. And he is an alcoholic. He suffers a great deal. More than i care to discribe at this time. He says he learned all his bad habits from the anahiem church in the early 70's.There is alot of truth that comes out of him when he is drunk.

Everthing i've posted he has comfirmed in the many years i have known him. The wierd part is that he has not been to TLW since the death of his pastor JRS.

I'm very happy that some of you have overcome the deception of this church. I just wish i knew how i could help my friend dan. He is very alone. Lost everything. Just name it. He doesn't deserve this. But i know we deserve nothing. What I mean to say that it is hard to try and help someone when you can't get thru the mess they have in thier head for over 20 years.

OK well, I care about my friend Dan. And even if he yells at me that i don't understand, and that i'm not ready for the high level of understanding of his old church, I know he knows i'm acting on a simple "check the scriptures" reasoning.

I avoid arguments, but i love it when i find a chistian who when i speak to her or him, we feel the truth. The Truth. Some times when i hear people say that, it sounds wierd. It just sounded wierd to me. I really don't feel that there are many good churches out there. Not that i'm an expert on anything. But I love God and Jesus. And I am always happy to talk to someone with a good spirit about them.

I didn't mean for anything i posted to seem like an attack. I felt more like i was joining in on something that i've been thru with My Friend Dan.
Sorry about that. I'm just looking for a home church like everyone else. But i must admit i haven't tried that many churches. I'm a bit reluctant. I've got my own quirks. But I Only get to the library once in a while so i'll say God Bless untill I can read some more of your thread.

Take Care.

ceebups (ceebups)

08-22-2005, 12:02 AM

Travis: Your post was amazing to me. So your dear friend Dan, who suffers so much, learned all his bad habits at the Anahiem church??? Then you go on to talk about the truth??

Yeah right.

I think this will be my last post here. My best wishes to everyone here. I sincerely hope that you all find what you are looking for.

spaceman (spaceman)

08-22-2005, 04:49 AM

Hello:

I've enjoyed following the discussion. I was disappointed to hear that you are leaving, Ceebups. I will miss your loyalty, level headedness and your honesty. God's best blessings for you.
Travis, I'm sorry to hear of your friend's difficulties. Perhaps you could encourage him to read some of the posts on these fact net pages. He may find some answers to some of his questions. You're a kind friend to try and help him, but its hard for you to understand where he's at.
I sincerely feel that this fact net site has been a great source of insight to all of us. Unfortunately, my observations during my time in the "walk" were that some alcohol abuse was happening, and it created a lot of suffering for some people.
Ceebups, hope you have a nice motorcycle trip to the Smoky Mtns. (I'm a Goldwing guy, myself).
Larry, I'm looking for a church home myself (just like Travis). I have had some difficult experiences with some of the mainstream churches. Do you have any suggestions on finding a church home?
Travis, perhaps you could encourage Dan to open his heart to the Love that Jesus has for him.
Romans 8:38 "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Blessings to you, Spaceman

winterland (winterland)

08-22-2005, 04:11 PM

Ceebups, I too am sorry that you are thinking of leaving. I can understand how you would feel that there is nothing but attacks against the Living Word here.

When I was at Shiloh, we were always battling. It was very exhausting. That enviroment made me think that the whole world was against us. I don't know if that attitude is still present in tlw.

I have so much appreciated hearing from someone like you on the "inside" and I believe you are a sincere person who is being met in tlw, so I am happy for you. My husband and I will be thinking of you as we ride through the wheat fields of Alberta on our motorcycle. My husband and I don't want to attack anyone here, we are just trying to share our experiences that we know first hand in the hope that something positive can come from it. I hope this comes across in the way it is intended.

Travis; I think it is wonderful that you are trying to help Dan. It might be unfair to say that all of his problems are a result of his involvement in the Anaheim church. I know that many people came into a deep relationship with the Lord through the churches so you can't judge everything through what happened to one person.

But one of the saddest parts of the history of tlw is the bleeding sheep that were hurt and just left to die. I have read such sad stories here on the internet. For example, M. L. whose marriage and family were so destroyed by an involvment with this church. These things should never have happened, all in the name of a walk with God.

I had a wonderful friend who was labelled a nephilum and left the walk and his relationship with the Lord. This too led to alcohol abuse. As far as I can see, and remember I am only speaking as a little person and I do not know All of the details. But I believe that this particular thing happened only because my friend was caught on the wrong side of the politics and he was caught in a power struggle that was taking place in the church at the time. Did my friend have some problems? Of course, who doesn't, but did he deserve to be shunned and placed on a "black list" and a "no contact" order. I hate the policy of shunning that took place in the walk. We all saw it and unfortunately often went along with it in our ignorance. So my heart breaks for the bleeding sheep. I know I have been praying for so many others to receive a touch from the Lord. I don't know what else you can do. Thank you Travis for sharing your story here, my husband and I will pray for you and Dan.

Unfortunately a lot of people were hurt in the early days of the walk and some of these situations have been exposed on the Factnet site. But perhaps it is better that these things are exposed than trying to hide them and pretend that they don't exist. We've certainly seen that in some religions.

It reminds me of the scripture that says "what they do in secret will be broadcast from the housetops" Isn't that exactly what happens through the internet. I sincerely pray that all the wounded people receive a healing touch from the Lord Jesus. And I pray that the Living Word can be healed too. I too hope everyone here can find what they are looking for.

changedagain (changedagain)

08-22-2005, 08:13 PM

"But I believe that this particular thing happened only because my friend was caught on the wrong side of the politics and he was caught in a power struggle that was taking place in the church at the time."

Winterland,
Was this shortly after John's death?

winterland (winterland)

08-23-2005, 05:06 AM

Changedagain No, a year or so before.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

08-23-2005, 05:07 AM

Hi Spaceman,
I've been on both ends of the pendilum - a very legalistic Baptist church - I didn't attend a movie until I was 15 and the other extreme, TLW, where we brought a 6-pack of beer regularly to elders meetings, told gross jokes, used foul language and didn't thing anything was wrong. Neither fed the new nature.

I would check with the Association of Life Giving Churches (lifegivingchurch.com) and click on Find an ALC Church. For me, it has been a tremendous healing.

Walking with God requires a real focus - even if His yoke is easy and His burden light. I think it is important that there be fruit and a return for your efforts. The most difficult part of my association with TLW was the incredible amount of work, only to end up with ashes. The loss of friendships is especially difficult. Officially it doesn't happen, but anyone who has left knows differently.

God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. In the right relationship, He rewards beyound what we could ask or think. The quickest healing comes from finding out He really is faithful to His word - it just really has to be His word, not someone pretending to be God. He will produce fruit and you can know what's true by the fruit.

now_what (now_what)

08-24-2005, 01:26 AM

I came into the LWF in 1973 and have remained to some degree to this day. I do not attend a church anymore and I am not sure I will in the future.

On the positive the teachings and influence of John Stevens will be with me for the rest of my life. I do think he was a true man of God. I think many will testify that his love for people was unmatched.

He also ministered with deep revelation, it could be quite spectacular. I think one of the things he did for so many of us was to make alive the mystical side of Christianity.

Without the mystical, Christianity can be nose to the grindstone and line upon line, precept upon precept, and something of drudgery.

Things that always bothered me, even when John was over the chruches:

The allowance of shepherds to continue in things and ways that destroyed sheep. I never understood this. John used to say many things were a matter of growth, leave it alone and people would grow out of them.

I don't know if this policy was a result of that attitude, or if JRS did not feel he was some absolute authority figure over the churches. But some situations became very bad, such as Mel Bailey in Anaheim, or R.D. Cronquist in San Diego, to name just two.

This seemed to keep going on after John's death, to where it seemed to me the people were just guienna pigs and test beds for growing shepherds into maturity.

Maybe this is an outgrowth of the idea of ministering to the ministers? Certainly much of Christianity remains immature, perhaps because people expect a minister to carry them into the Kingdom.

But I don't see that the Walk solved that problem. Just inverted it, to where sheep were secondary to ministers. And whole churches could be, (and were) sacrificed on this altar.

Other things were just too much, such as Rick (Marilyn's son). Now he had problems of the flesh as we all do, but why the constant force-feeding of this guy as a ministry?

I had little respect for him and his antics. Just a spoiled kid that Marylin never disciplined as he was growing up. Never had to work or find a job. Just build him a recording studio in the Living Word Building. He wants a new wife? Just divorce the current wife and get the new model...how many times?

Fine and dandy, but why then must he be a major ministry in this fellowship? Gary tries to sell him at every chance. Why the hard sell?

This sort of thing has caused far more damage than ever admitted by the leadership. In fact I think this treatment of Rick was so blantantly a dual standard that you have to make up excuses to NOT see it as a double standard. When ever the current leadership admits to error, or a mistake, it is done in a whisper, if at all.

These churches quit growing in the late 70's. You can only blame spiritual warfare or persecution so long. If something is not growing it is dying, and yes that means physical numbers, even for spirtual movements.

I think the whole thing could go on into a much greater expression, maybe it will, some openness to other ministers right now. But I also think it may be too little, too late.

Many deep worshipers and those that love the Lord, tremendous dedication. Yet so many practices that were so stupid, and just plain rude. (How about forcing people to sing to one another?) Like some kind of new age encounter session. No wonder you cannot get new memebers.

Too many abuses in the name of Divine Order. A ready made label of rebellion for anyone that does not accept the precepts of Divine Order. I think they may have Divine Order, but it has killed the creativity and life of people.

John prophecied we were to write the books, find the inventions, open businesses, care for our elderly, our kids should be leading scientists. He longed for some kid to become the world's expert in Biblical Archaelogy. Where are these things? To do them you have to leave the Walk.

Just leaving, or contemplating leaving I have seen more doors open than in all the time in the fellowship. Which has a ready made interpretation for such things, that you have left spiritual warfare so things come easy.

And the Walk DID get arrogant and self-focused, sorry but that is the truth. It did fall into spiritual pride of "we are the people." Many of these groups on this board have that one quality of "we are the people." Maybe some group IS the "people." But now I am wary. Hope I am not becoming C.S. Lewis's Dwarfs in Narnia.

daikon (daikon)

08-25-2005, 12:02 AM

Wow,
now_what, you didn't pull any punches and I like that candor. I must say I surely do agree with this --
"Many deep worshipers and those that love the Lord, tremendous dedication. Yet so many practices that were so stupid, and just plain rude...."

There's a quote and I wish I knew who to give credit for it, but it sums up something I have long felt about the "abuses" at TLW.

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity"

I also agree with your appreciation of the mystical aspect of Christianity. I doubt John (and I mean the beloved one who wrote the "Gospel of...") would do very well in some of the get down, get literal churches of today.

Yes, there is a lot of the "we are the people, you're not" in Christianity today -- I call it "daddy loves me more than you" when in Truth all the Father wants is the one[s] who loves Him most -- with all their heart, soul and strength and then their neighbor as themself, as a matter of fact.

And as for young Mr. Holbrook ... I haven't been there in some time, so my opinion isn't first hand (now) but... that duck quacks.

Peace and love

spaceman (spaceman)

08-25-2005, 04:26 AM

Hello:

Welcome to you "now_what"! (I'm glad you didn't call yourself "so_what")! Thanks for your insight and analysis-some excellent observations. I hope the leadership of tlw is reading these posts so they can get a perspective on things. (I wonder if they do read the posts???) Anyhow, I'm happy you're here.

Does anyone ever wonder how many people came through tlw? When I worked in the logging camps they used to say they had 3 crews:
one coming, one going and one working.

Larry, thanks a lot for the reference. I found there was a church near here listed on the web page you mentioned, so I'm going to check it out soon.

It sounds like you have experienced the stinging bite of shunning? You said: "The loss of friendships is especially difficult. Officially it doesn't happen, but anyone who has left knows differently". Perhaps many here have experienced it? The pain of it is nearly unbearable. I know that Christ experienced shunning (He was despised and forsaken of men-Isaiah 53:3). Christ loves us all equally tho', and the shunners are not the final judge. ...Jesus INCLUDES (He doesn't EXCLUDE)... "God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!" Rom 11:1 One thing I did notice from being shunned, is that it drove me closer to the Lord, so it actually worked for my good. I want to encourage you, Larry, as I sense you're in a good spot in the Lord and He is using you and you are a blessing!! Bless you! We know several people that were shunned and now are ministring in a wonderful way (just like you are). Its a testimony to the healing touch of the Lord.

Daikon, I liked your perspective on "daddy loves me more than he loves you". Sadly, that's what a lot of groups think. I also liked your quote "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity". Very cute.

Blessings to all, Spaceman

changedagain (changedagain)

08-25-2005, 03:06 PM

Spaceman re: now_what:
"Thanks for your insight and analysis-some excellent observations."

Agreed.

winterland (winterland)

08-25-2005, 04:26 PM

Now What: definitely a "four star" posting. (Do you guys remember the star rating system on the tapes. I only remember the top rating was four stars but that was many years ago when I was around.)

The questions you asked, I have also wondered about. But as much as I respected John Stevens, could any man have lived up to the expectation we had of him. No man could handle that kind of adulation, that's why God alone is to be worshiped.

I loved your name "Now What" I think that is the question we are all asking of the Lord, Now What Lord?

Thank you to everyone for their humor and insights. I hope you all notice the reunion site that changedagain has opened, check your indexes.

We're all seeking the Lord for our next steps.

now_what (now_what)

08-25-2005, 04:49 PM

Thanks to all for comments. I will probably just post infrequently. The "star" rating still exists. It actually was not that more stars meant a better word. One star was basic teaching. Two stars was School of Prophets teaching. I don't remember the difference between 3 and 4 star. I think one of them meant a new thread or teaching, some on here would probably remember.

louann (louann)

10-04-2005, 11:56 PM

Just discovered this treasuretrove of Walk goodies. I have shared my post-Walk journey in another thread. But, I could not resist commenting on the post on a certain Rick....

I lived at Shiloh from 1978 to 1984, and was asked to leave by Marilyn. My impressions of the "inner group" was that of a double standard. "All are equal, but some are more equal than others" Just because so-and-so said it, does not make it right, whether that is JRS or the Pope.

The mystical is certainly missing from conservative churches like the Baptists, etc. However, it is very much alive elsewhere, like the Eastern Orthodox. If one wants that, it can be found......

pjwhite97818 (pjwhite97818)

10-15-2005, 04:29 AM

Terrebonne,Oregon early 70's anyone?

changedagain (changedagain)

10-17-2005, 04:17 PM

"The allowance of shepherds to continue in things and ways that destroyed sheep. I never understood this. John used to say many things were a matter of growth, leave it alone and people would grow out of them."

Leave it alone? I suspect a lot of the motivation for this non-action on John's part, and post-John, had more to do with protection of the church and his own image. Otherwise, when a person sees this type of abuse occuring (which, obviously, was far more prevalent than the Anaheim/San Diego situations)--and if he/she has just a modicum of compassion for those affected, they intervene--not look for 'God' to take care of it. A loose analogy: if you're a parent who's kid has been abused by a priest your first response is not to have 'God' do something about it (if it is, I suggest you're not much of a parent). I think it's a case, once again, of the interests of institution (represented, in reality, by a very few) trumping that of the individual--who is relatively powerless in light of the 'awesomeness' of the living word. It's not worthy of respect.

louann (louann)

10-18-2005, 08:16 PM

I am inclined to agree here. There was spiritual abuse going on (in my case, at Phoenix under Don Tucker, and also at Shiloh) -- the sort of thing that can be extremely damaging. JRS should have been more aware of what was going on, but I suspect that he was surrounded by Marilyn and her crew, and by the yes-men and syncophants, and had information that was probably filtered. And, as for "God taking care of it" -- what a cop-out! THere are probably things that some folks are going to have to answer for on Judgment Day.

now_what (now_what)

10-19-2005, 07:35 PM

We all have things to answer for, I am cautious in attributing to malice what may have been done in ignorance. As to JRS not knowing what ministers were doing in the churches, perhaps in some, at the height of growth there were over 100 churches.

Most of us viewed JRS in our youth and his gifts and abilities were impressive, and he could seem to be perceptive and knowing of everything.

I, and most of us, are also guilty of not seeing him as just a man also, with insecurities and faults. It may be he was just like you and me and did not feel he "owned," all these churches.

And do you uproot and expose a pastor that is in error and maybe destroy a whole church? Or do you try to make lemonaid out of lemons?

As an example I know as a fact that JRS wept over the phone in his house in N. Hollywood, pleading with Cronquist over his ways with the Nevada Mine episode and other abuses.

That plea restored Cronquist for at least a few more years, perhaps he should have cut him off at that time, I don't know.

But JRS labored under an injunction he recieved from the Lord in the beginning of the Walk to "Have faith for every man I put under your hands."

That would include shepherds as well as sheep. Personally I will never fault JRS, I have yet to see anyone move in the love he moved in. I also in my thinking would have layed the hammer down sooner on errant shepherds, but probably with that mindset, I would have done it sooner with sheep also. (good that I was not a shepherd myself)

For that reason I also have to think those that were under his ministry, no matter how it appears to me, no matter the factual circumstances, have something imparted. I cannot easily give up on this fellowship, and I too have and can be critical.

I don't think everything was error or false, I have yet to sort it out, maybe I cannot. Many things I see now in the Charismatic Churches were pioneered by John and the Walk. Freestyle worship, the celebration of the Jewish Feasts in their spiritual significance, a drawing closer to Judiastic roots of Christianity.

At least a serious attempt to restore New Testament Church Order, something that individual ministries all over the world get direct revelation about, so not just something the "Walk," discovered, but a revelation coming to many in the last 50 years or so.

And that is something that is not easy to do, since the early church had the advantage of people filled and baptised with the Holy Spirit from day one...even then they got into arguments and class divisions over who should be served first, not to mention the problems of Judiasers, and even John the Beloved is excluded from Churches he started.

changedagain (changedagain)

10-20-2005, 01:38 AM

Well, you make some good points--and it's clear you had a personal relationship, or at least insight into John's character. I didn't have an inside look--but had a first-hand view of the results of John's non-action...whether it was attributed to his ignorance, his sense that the local churches did not belong to him, his conscience in not giving up too soon on other ministries (which, at times, seemed to favor the perpetrator over the victim)--or just simply his belief that no matter how bad a situation happened to be, God could sovereignly rectify it. I do not regret what I went through- but due to a maturation process & much overdue dose of some self-esteem --would never again be a part of any organization/movement that, in practice, had such reckless, systematic disregard for people's welfare...even if I *knew* the guy at the top was properly motivated.
That said, I appreciate your comments and respect the fact that you're defending someone in their absence. If the pastors and other leaders had some of your sensitivity...this board might be vacant.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

10-20-2005, 05:54 AM

As one who joined TLW in the late 60's and then left in the late 90's, I wonder if anyone else shares my observation. It seems to me that there was healthy growth until JRS divorced his wife and Marilyn came into the picture. At the time I first heard about it, I was an elder in the Des Moines church and thought it was only more lies about John, trying to discredit him. When I found out it was true, instead of going back to the scriptures as a plumbline and questioning it, I went along with the unequal yoke thing, which is scriptually taken out of context, and buried what I now believe was a warning of the Holy Spirit.

As time has gone on, it is fascinating that the focus has shifted 180 degrees from the apostolic ministries equipping the body, which is what Ephesians 4 teaches, to the body ministering to G&M in an upward flow. In my experience, it seems that the healthiest churches help discover and develop the individual gifts and talents God has deposited in the parts of the body as it pleases Him and then He brings forth oneness. It's true that the individuality of our flesh does war against spiritual oneness but what God places in our spirits is vital for the building up of the body in love. If it gets buried under one man's focus or agenda, the body does not receive the unique equipping that all the parts were meant to supply - not just one. Do you remember John identifying the word of God over individuals lives back in the 70's? I know mistakes were made, but there was value as well.

I think the focus changed to ministering to John when Marilyn entered the picture. She took Martha's place, John's place, and I believe eventually God's place. I knew as a leader, my job was to get people connected and submissive to Marilyn. The real purpose of divine order and designated relationships is to give her absolute control through a heirarchy as the lamp of Israel or sole witness of the holy spirit in the earth. Without the requirement of good fruit, except at some far off date that cannot be verified, anything goes. Is it fair to ask if the word came to pass and John, with he rest of the body in tow, broke into resurrection life? He personally said, "If they carry me out feet first, this word is not true." After all the new diets and new levels, is anyone walking in anymore physical manifestation of the word? It only seems silly now, without scriptural basis. In the words of that famous prophet Dr. Phil, "How's that working out for you?"

It has been refreshing for me to be serving with fathering ministries that are male instead of just female. Marilyn, as an apostolic fathering ministry, that all the men submit to, has always troubled me. I'm not being sexist but I think it takes a man of God to teach a man how to be a man of God. Of course female input is invaluable - just go camping with a bunch of guys - it's ungodly.

I missed the fathering aspect of John after his death. No matter how well intended a single mother may be, she's still not a dad (and neither are big brothers). The same is true for a dad trying to raise a daughter by himself - he's just not a mom even though he deeply loves his daughter. Amidst all the talk of divine order, I think the walk is out of order spiritually and wandering in confusion. A true leader is there to serve, not be served - to lead by example, not as an overlord. When mom runs the family without accountability, there's trouble.

louann (louann)

10-20-2005, 06:32 PM

Actually, ignorance of abuse by those at the top is not new -- look at what is going on in the Roman Catholic Church these days. I understand that John Paul II was FURIOUS when he found out about the pedophiles, and that the present Benedict XVI spoke of "filth in the Church" days before he was elected Pope.

I also think that those of us who ever sat under the ministry of JRS probably do have something positive imparted. I believe that my ministry as a worship leader, albeit a very traditional, organ-and-choir type, is greatly enhanced and freed by what I learned in the Walk.

JRS was not a bad man at all, and I do not for a minute believe that he would have abused anyone. However, it was the power-mad underlings....

I agree that the Walk began to deteriorate badly after the marriage to Marilyn, but I think that the downward slide started earlier, with the "Jubilee" worship and that focus on "Papa John". It seemed to me at the time that these guys were acting too much like priests of Baal, in their frenzy (I was once Pentecostal, and know about that stuff -- this was "way out there"!) When the focus went to John, and they were following a MAN (later, worse yet, a WOMAN), it went downhill from there. Actually, if they were going to follow a woman, they would have been on far safer ground to follow the Mother of Jesus!

Being in the Walk is part of the spiritual formation of all of us who post here. We have ended up in different places, but the good that was imparted to us thru JRS will always hold true. God has not wasted our time. It was prophesied over me AFTER I left the Walk (by an Episcopal priest, BTW), that the Lord would restore to me what the cankerworm ate, and that he would redeem the time. This should be true for us all. God bless you!

now_what (now_what)

10-20-2005, 07:46 PM

Well that gives me something to chew on. Very much in an assesment mode myself. I have felt lately that I need to go to source documents, such as original Hebrew for the Old Testament, and better translations of the New Testament. Even studying the cannonization of the Bible...why was the book of Enoch left out? Revelation barely made it in. Not sure I trust the spiritual depth of the councils that determined the "accepted," books of the Bible, let alone the translations from a Greek culture, when the Bible was written from the perspective of the Hebrew culture. Like trying to understand the game of Baseball as written by Arabs, or Canadians!

I suppose if I could question such things, I should question my 25 + years in the Walk, and probably the most obvious question is what about the fruit? Hard to think a slowly shrinking movement is that way, all because of spiritual warfare or persecution.

spaceman (spaceman)

10-21-2005, 04:11 PM

Hello:

You asked about Bible translations? My wife and I have been attending some Messianic Jewish Feast of Tabernacles meetings lately and we bought a Jewish New Testament there (translated by David H Stern). We have enjoyed reading it and comparing it to the NASB. The Jewish translation, for example, mentions "rejoice in union with the Lord", whereas the NASB would say "rejoice in the Lord" (Phil 3:1). There are other subtle, but meaningful differences. The Amplified Bible is also a great translation for expanding the text.
While on the topic of books, I have been greatly enjoying the book:
"Can you Hear Me?" tuning in to the God who speaks by Brad Jersak (www.freshwindpress.com (http://www.freshwindpress.com)).
He uses visualization and dialogue approaches (based on scripture) to converse with the Lord. It is the best instruction I've found for practical techniques for learning God's voice. A great help to anyone interested in a practical walk with God, as it takes out the spookiness.
Greetings Louann! You were very helpful in showing me the workings of the Shiloh organ. I'm glad the Lord is meeting you in your life.

Blessings to all, Spaceman

PS: To Now What: you're right about Canadians not knowing baseball. I'm writing from Canada and the only way I can get the playoff games is on radio. Its definately a "hockey culture" up here.

winterland (winterland)

10-22-2005, 07:38 PM

Larry, I wanted to ask you a question since you were involved in the Walk until the late 90's. I'll just explain a situation that has happened to me over this last year. I was telling someone who used to be in the walk about this factnet site. This person said ..... "Oh, those are only more lies being spread about John trying to discredit him".....then I was told......"you really need to have a revelation of who John is"

I got a similar response from one of the pastors at Shiloh when I asked a question about the intercession back in the 70's. I was told....."if you don't have a revelation of this intercession, then you have no business being at Shiloh" (That didn't really encourage me to ask any more questions.)

What was the Living Word teaching about who John was during the late 90's when you were still there? Was it standard practice for people to be told to "Get a Revelation" of situations in the Walk such as John, Marilyn and Gary, intercession etc. But some of this teaching was not clearly laid out but was hidden and not openly discussed. How did people receive this revalation? Do you receive it by the laying on of hands or submitting yourself to the leadership or just through peer pressure? If you as a "little person" have a question about anything, do they dump the load back on the "little person" by telling them.....it is YOUR responsibility to get a revelation of this?

I was just wondering if anyone else had had a similar experience or was this just something unique to me.

I know that a lot of things were "JUST UNDERSTOOD" but not openly discussed. For example, when we were praying against Jezebel in the 70's we sort of just knew that Jezebel was Martha Stevens but I don't think this was openly talked about in the churches. But I must have picked that up somewhere because I knew it and I
was the littlest of the little people.

Does the Living Word still have this "duel track" of revelation or are they trying to clean up their doctrins and become more mainsteam?

Thanks Larry and to anyone else that has anything to share. I appreciate getting a clearer picture by reading what everyone has to say.

winterland (winterland)

10-22-2005, 08:41 PM

Larry or others, I had one other question.... I am curious about what the atmosphere is in the Living Word today. It seems that this "deeper revelation" is mostly about who the leadership is. I imagine that the people that are still in the Living Word today are considered to be loyal and they must have this "deeper revelation." Are people still tested in their revelation and their loyalty to the leadership. Or now that the group is quite small are these pledges of loyalty still required. Or is there still a fear in the people that remail that they might be "sifted out" and shunned.

I was just wondering if people feel more secure in their place in the church. I care about a lot of people still in the walk and I just was wondering what it is like today.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

10-24-2005, 04:17 AM

I'm not sure when you left TLWF, but I don't believe how John was viewed changed much during the 90's. He was considered the door opener apostle to the kingdom, which supposedly happened in 1979, and a manifestation of Christ in the flesh. He was also viewed as taking satan down with his death.

Even during the time I was involved with the walk, it bothered me that we couldn't be honest and open with the teaching. It's very easy to see why now. The word had to be changed to fit visitors, many times on the fly if you happened to be the one bringing the word that day. For those involved there were still levels of secrecy - School of Prophets, Reference Library, and Shepherd's Library etc. with access based on, as you put it, revelation and loyality to the leadership. The fact that my "revelation" had to be hidden, made me uncomfortable. I would even take it a step further and suggest my Christianity had to be hidden behind actions that would appear to be non-religious.

It's interesting to note the bondage of fear that so many who have been a part of the walk continue to live under. It's quite a big step just to use your own name in a public forum, like you have something to be ashamed of. They seem to forget how well "God's judgement" worked on Martha and who died. Jesus said to let your light shine, not hide it and to pray for those that persecute you, not prophesy their destruction. I'd be more concerned about following Jesus' commands which have eternal consequences rather than following a designated relationship whose life is in shambles. People are being kept in immaturity and they don't realize it.

Steven Covey said, "Interdependence is a choice only independent people can make. Dependent people cannot choose to become interdependent. They don't have the character to do it; they don't own enough of themselves."

There are many qualities of John that I loved. I think many of us could fill up pages with wonderful things. Many wonderful things could also be said about King David, but that doesn't mean his sins were not sins and there were no consequences. Because John's words are considered to be infallible within TLW, there's no openness for correction and help. To even suggest otherwise turns loose a barrage of insults.

I think the eye opener for me was to discover others who proclaimed lofty callings in order to get people to follow after them. The resulting patterns of spiritual abuse are exactly the same. Even though it may be unclear to see what is wrong with your group, it's easy to see the problems in others. That's why the body needs all its parts, for safety. Others can help us see our blindspots. That's also why groups that want to exercise control over their members, isolate themselves from other groups.

In Matthew 23 Jesus said, "They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everythihng they do is done for men to see; They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most importants seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles minself will be exalted."

He also said, "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many....At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or,'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time."

Notice Jesus didn't say you're going to have to have a revelation of which one really is the Christ. Wanting to be the greatest of all the Christians in the earth - which many do - only leads to problems.

winterland (winterland)

10-24-2005, 04:27 PM

Larry, thanks for your comments. I'm trying to figure out how some of the beliefs of the LW affect people's lives today. For example,.....John taking down satan with his death. How do members apply that belief or does is really have no practical application and it is just some vague concept that you agree with when you're in the group?

I haven't been a part of tlw since 1983. I was a part of the Edmonton ,Alberta body when John died. A few weeks after John's death a lot of Canadians came to L.A. for a wedding, along with our pastor. We assumed that our pastor would take his place in the Apostolic Company since he had a calling as an Apostle to Canada. Instead, our pastor was prophesied against in the services. This was a real shock to all of us, I guess I was very naive about the power struggle taking place after John's death and was very far removed from the politics of the inner circle. I think we all assumed that the leadership in the walk was going to be turned over to an "Apostolic Company." I was told that we all had a strange spirit on us because we were sort of blown out by the atmosphere in the L.A. churches because of the prayers for resurrection life. So our whole church just broke off contact with tlw. So it wasn't a "personal rejection" but it was very weird. If I hadn't been there, I wouldn't have believed that things could have become so strange. I had been in Shiloh until 1980, so I was used to seeing the intense intercession and some pretty strange things, but things in LA were absolutely paranoid. So that's breifly my story.

So it has been awhile since I've been in tlw. I was curious about the concept that the Kingdom had begun in 1979. I am a little fuzzy about how that happened. Was that because in 1972 John had a vision and the Lord took him into the future seven years (1979) and told him that this was the Kingdom? Is that why tlw says that the kingdom started in 1979?

Are these doctrins sort of openly taught in the church? Is it sort of like an addition to the "First Principles" or perhaps they are just "understood" in the group and there is no need to really "talk about them." These sort of beliefs are really what separates tlw from more mainstream christianity.

I have christian friends that believe in a rapture of the church before the second coming of Christand some other things that I don't really agree with but these things are minor because we still believe that Jesus was God's son and our savior etc. But some of these beliefs of the Living Word......wouldn't it be very hard for them to have much fellowship with other Christian groups? Can a person really just ignore these BIG theology differences?

I've actually studied a lot of the old manuals since I left the walk like First Principles, The New Testament Church, Prophetic Utterance, Worship, and they seem pretty tame comparred to post-John theology. I'd like to hear your comments.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

10-26-2005, 04:20 AM

I don't really think the doctrine of John taking down satan by dying of prostate cancer has any practical affect on people's lives today. The fact that there was no change in the level of spiritual warefare is explained away by saying that satan was taken down but his underlings are still in power. Of course only the most decerning (the leadership) are able to recognize this. When I mentioned this to my wife, who was never involved in the walk, she thought I was makng this up as some kind of silly joke. Where is the smallest thread of scriptual backing?

I know John used to say that many who had left the walk noticed quite a decrease in the level of spiritual warfare they faced. He said this was because they were no longer a threat to the enemy or going against the current of the age. My experience has been quite different. I've found that as I have stopped opening my spirit in a way that parallels the techniques used in the occult, satan doesn't have the access he once did. In Acts, they burned their occult books when they became Christians, not put together a library to better understand satan, like John did. I know it's a sore spot to say many of the school of prophets techniques originated in the "wisdom of the ancients" and not the scriptures, but even casual research will shed a lot of light on this. Satan does not have free reign when we obey Jesus' commands, in fact he flees.

People tend to wear the satanic conflict in their lives as some sort of badge of honor. I now think it is evidence of the wrong type of openness and disobedience - not something to boast of. Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. If we resist him, the devil flees. He comes after us one way and flees seven. I think back on the lifesyle of demonic oppression in the walk and it is sad to know now that it's just not necessary. We have battles, but it is only to demonstrate Christ's victory. It's available and happening right now. You don't have to give away your life to some misguided human and after thirty more years of breaking through into new levels you can finally walk in victory.

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

10-26-2005, 04:54 AM

As far as the kingdom dawning in 1979, I'm just as fuzzy as you. I do think that date stems from John's vision in 1972 of the future and maybe a little touch of pyramidology. I keep getting tossed back and forth between the Jehovah's Witnesses date in the early 1900's and the walk's date of 1979. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Actually, I'd go with Jesus proclaiming the kingdom was here when He was on the earth. I don't think we need anymore doors opened or dates to pass by. We just need to do what He said and we'll find out it works right now.

bill_mack (bill_mack)

10-26-2005, 06:04 AM

larry,

In terms of "ages" or "eras" have you given any though about the roots of the Latter Rain movement? What I'm getting at here is that the pioneer founders of the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) did read and accept theosophical writings whose major focus was to bring people into a "New Age".

Have you or anyone else covered this before?

I noticed an earlier post by Dick that affirms JRS was indeed NOLR,

"It is for certain that John embraced the Latter Rain theology. I can't think of anyone else that believed that theology more. John supposedly was warned to be separate from other Latter Rain practitioners, but he certainly believed and taught pure Latter Rain theology from the manifestation of the sons of God to the reinstatement of apostles and prophets. As far as his library goes, I have no certainty, but it would stand to reason that someone like John would know as much as possible about the enemy as well as try to return some of the knowledge that was kept out of the church by the Catholics, such as astrology."

Why not go further as I have and get to the root teachings of the NOLR and then go forward and look at how JRS embraced those teachings? There really is an eye-opening *BIG PICTURE" that you will benefit by seeing. I believe many followers of the teachings of the NOLR leaders can have their doctrines and practices (and abuses) explained when the historical past is illuminated in light of the Bible.

--Bill

winterland (winterland)

10-26-2005, 07:04 AM

Larry, maybe the "little people" in tlw don't know what the church is teaching. This sort of thing must be in the "restricted tape library." (Just kidding)

Bill, you're right, knowing the history of a doctrine is very helpful in understanding it.

winterland (winterland)

10-26-2005, 06:50 PM

Bill, I like your idea of going back to the root teaching of NOLR and see how JRS embraced these teachings? How would you suggest a person do that?

The thing that I find so amazing is how different "terms or catch phrases" can have such diverse meanings to different people. On one end I've talked to people that believe the manifestation of the sons of God means that JRS actually became the first fruits of Christ in the earth. And on the other hand I've talked to people from the walk that just believe that the manifestation of the sons of God is just the fulfilling of the scripture that says....."greater works than these you shall do".... How can we understand each other when everyone has a different concept of what something means?

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

10-26-2005, 07:00 PM

Hi Bill,
Myself and others have in fact researched and posted on this website the history and teachings of the NOLR. In case anyone missed it, does any of the following sound familiar?

The Latter Rain, restoration of the church, restoration of the five-fold ministries, pre-rapture spiritual second coming of Christ, new revelation and prophesies, manifestation of the sons of God, over coming death before Christ's literal return, dominion now theology and spiritual warfare, mainstream Christianity referred to as old order or Babylon, personal ministry or words from God from leaders to congregants, emphasis on the Feast of Tabernacles, manchild doctrine, Joel's army and militancy, deeper levels of revelation including altered states of consciousness, incarnation of christ in a many membered body, spiritual evolution to perfection, divine order, enforced unity, shepherding, and father/son mentoring etc., etc.

After my first Google search, I felt personally betrayed. After over thirty years, I still thought the body of John's word came him spending a couple of years waiting on the Lord in an old remodeled chicken coup. John was not just confirming what God had spoken to NOLR movement. He was involved in it, knew the teaching, and then claimed it as his own. The only original teaching was that he was the door opener apostle to the kingdom which didn't sit well with the other NOLR leaders. They too were creating special positions for themselves. Funny how none of them could submit to each other and were forced to split up and go find new people to build their individual kingdoms.

I'm not saying that there is no truth to any of these teachings. I am saying that they did not originate with John as we were led to believe. Again, I think it is important to note that it should be a red flag when leaders demand absolute submission, but they are not willing to submit to other leaders in the body of Christ themselves. I think they would discover that a true leader is not looking for obedience to them on a personal level but obedience to God's word so that there can be great blessing on the works God has given them to do.

bill_mack (bill_mack)

10-29-2005, 03:24 AM

winterland,

"How can we understand each other when everyone has a different concept of what something means?"

Answer: Find common ground, especially through history and the Word. Since the Word gets twisted, refer to historical documents and sources. I believe I can help with this. No, I was never a member in TLW per se, but I was a member in one of its offshoots. After I was brutally excommunicated, I did a 5-year investigation into who these people are, what their objectives were and finally pinpointed the historical source from which the NOLR pioneer leaders derived their teachings.

In short, I found the source of the force, with the help of the Lord. I believe God is quite sick of us not being professional, going round and round decade after decade and never learning from history. I desperately wanted to get off the "ferris wheel" and now I'm going linear.

Want to come along and join the linear party or go round the mulberry bush? I am not trying to be arrogant here, but I am so confident in my historical discoveries and want to see real truth seekers get the same info, that I am making a call here.

larry_bobo,

Part of the key is to find the historical source for the NOLR words and phrases you've just outlined.

Just for kicks, you guys know who NOLR founder George Hawtin was, right? Have you ever read any of his little-known 34-vol. set of journals?

Did you know that the phrase "Manifest Sons of God" is another phrase for the older "Elias Artista"???? Google that up for kicks.

Then, look up the meaning of "Prisca Theologia."

I do hope very soon I can find like-minded people who really do love the Lord who would want to finally put an end to this madness that says,

"God is restoring the office of apostles and prophets."

Way too many people have had their fortunes ripped off and their lives ruined.

I do not want to play the riddler here, but yet I don't want to be trampled underfoot either.

Are you guys current members? What is your current connections with the Walk or any other NOLR entity, including Roman Catholicisn, Promise Keepers, Alpha or Purpose Driven heresy???

-Bill

louann (louann)

10-29-2005, 06:14 PM

A few comments.

It is no news to me that JRS' "revelations" might not have been original with him. I am realizing more and more that the poor man was a "wannabe", picking up ideas and repackaging them. Or, so it seems.

He was said to have a PhD. Well, he didn't, did he? To someone like myself, who has earned every degree she has, by stint of very hard work, this realization was disappointing to say the least.

Many of the teachings of the Walk are heretical, deriving from Gnosticiam, mostly. When I left, and reaffiliated with the Episcopal Church, I made a formal confession, and re-affirmation before the Bishop, on the advice of the priest who pointed out the errors. These errors were described to me as New Age, Witchcraft, Gnosticism, etc. I am now a Lutheran, but I feel even more strongly about these heresies after studying some Lutheran theology!

The great sin of the Walk, and of JRS, it seems to me, was HUBRIS. And spiritual pride. The cult of the new thing. To be where IT'S happening. To be on the cutting edge, and to have a leg up on everyone else. Such a temptation and siren song!

As for the "decrease" in spiritual warfare....I can tell you that there was no decrease for me, simply a shift of emphasis. No longer focussed on A MAN, I lead the church in worship every Sunday in worship of the King of Kings. And, of course, there is warfare. I did learn to fight the fight at Shiloh, but if I had not been there I surely would have learned it another way. I agree with Larry that perhaps some of the warfare we endured had to do with the way we opened our spirits. Since the entire venue was a mixed bag ot syncretism and worse, then any sort of thing could get at us if we opened ourselves wrongly. Myself, I ALWAYS invoked the Name of Jesus, and probably avoided much pain and deception in the process.

By their fruits shall ye know them. What is the fruit of this thing? A lot of hurting, wounded lambs. I am sure that God has not been pleased.

bill_mack (bill_mack)

10-30-2005, 01:54 AM

louann,

Did you ever have any dealings with Royal or Darline Cronquist?

--Bill

larry_bobo (larry_bobo)

10-31-2005, 06:59 AM

I'm probably going out on a limb here, but I would suggest that at least part of the depth of the worship experience that many have been unable to duplicate in their search of other churches, is really rooted in gnostism. In many eastern religions, there is an experience of spiritual ecstasy and a feeling of living on a higher plane than others. It's naturally attractive to a human nature to want to be like God.

An interesting thing to me is that this revelation knowledge doesn't produce a new nature, even after all these meetings with God. There is a knowledge of good and evil, without any power to bring about change. You live in the constant torment of the accuser of the brethren. Like back in the garden of Eden - your eyes will be open and you'll be like God. How many are aware of the "christ presence" that is coming in a group consciousness and is openly discussed in the new age movement? This is not new teaching nor is it Christian.

Have you ever wondered why, after all these experiences with God, people have such a difficult time connecting and trusting other parts of the body of Christ? That's not a fruit of His Spirit - it's a different spirit. God doesn't give us a spirit of fear. Most people are afraid to even use their real name on this website. His spirit doesn't isolate us from one another but it makes us one.

I led worship for many years in the walk and have now found something much deeper opening up for me. It's rooted in obeying Jesus' commands, not a spiritual vibration level. It's about living life as a living sacrifice, not singing a slow song and attempting to move into higher spiritual levels. When you finally do sing to the Lord, it has substance. The fruit of the Spirit starts forming and the fruit of the flesh starts to fall off. I've been shocked to find how fleshly and unhealthy my walk with TLW really was. I needed a six-pack of beer every night to help me cope with my high spiritual level - and I wasn't the ony one.

Maybe an example would be tithing. If you've never put the Lord first in your finances, it has little meaning. But if you give in a way that causes you to be dependent on His supply and you are faithful to give where He directs, giving becomes a deeply spiritual experience. You sense the flow of God into your life and then out from your life to others. Pretty soon, He is Lord of all of your finances, not just 10%.

I'm blown away by commands such as do good to the guy that does bad to you. It's not okay to be prophesying death and destruction on your enemies. When the disciples wanted to call down fire, Jesus said you don't know what spirit you are of. As we obey, which we can only do by His grace, the character of Jesus begins to be formed in us and it loves to worship the Father correctly - in spirit and in truth. Then instead of being off in la la land worshipping our worship, our worship has substance and actually ministers to the Lord.

now_what (now_what)

11-01-2005, 12:11 AM

louann

John had a Dr of Divinity degree, what makes you think he did not?

Also this idea that JRS got all his revelation from founders of the Latter Rain movement and the attendant inferance that he was practicing some deception is off-base IMO.

I can see right now in spirit-filled churches that many get basically the same flow of revelation at the same time.

Much more likely that John was influenced to some degree by stuff from Latter Rain but only he would know to what extent.

I find he would have to have been intentionally lying to everybody for 30 years when he told us he went to some Latter Rain meetings and was deeply grieved that the Lord would NOT allow him to be part of that movement.

He loved the worship, but even then he was disturbed by their prosperity teachings. I heard him say this more than once over many years.

I used to have a some literature, and I know it is in School of Prophets manuals of what JRS developed concerning the gifts of the spirit by fasting and prayer and waiting on the Lord. All of that is sound and fundamental doctrine, unless someone can show me what is wrong.

I never got the sense that JRS was preaching any shortcuts...quite the contrary he preached the work of the cross and personal devotion to the Lord.

John recounted many times the appearing of the Lord to him after several days of repentence for rebellion against an apostolic calling. I personally believe that this was a true appearing of the Lord to John.

My arguments would be more to the application of things. Obviously some things were done, and may still be done wrong.

But estabishment of New Testatment Church Order is a revelation coming to many men who knew nothing of Latter Rain.

God is a God of patterns, or why all the detail in Exodus, Deut, and Numbers to approach God? The work of restoration is to "rebuild the ancient ruins." Restore what was lost from the early church and then build upon that.

My own leading at this time is if you emphasize ORDER over revelation, you get neither. Peter had it right in his revelation of the Lord, and no man can intimidate you, or preach the "Lamp of Israel" nonsense.

Christ told people to be quite about who He was, because he did not want people jumping on a bandwagon, but to recieve themselves "from the father," revelation.

That revelation of Christ has within it the immediate application of the cross experience as Peter immediately found out. Satan jumped him right away. And it is our revelation that empowers us to be obedient, even to death on the cross as Paul said, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision." The vision gives you the power to be obiedient...not forcing yourself to obey God, you cannot. And JRS exhbited this pattern, in that he was a broken man after the appearing of the Lord...he said many times he feared to disobey the Lord after that experience. I cannot stand in Judgement of a man that I believe the Lord has appeared to.

My criticism of the walk fellowship was/is a progressive minimizing of personal revelation to be substituted by submission. I think JRS emphasized personal revelation up till the 70's.

I think submission became more and more emphasized until it precedes, and even displaces revelation. Without revelation you are left with conformity and intimidation.

And because I have been under that intimidation I am taking to heart Larry's last posting and telling my name.

Paul Trowbridge

now_what (now_what)

11-01-2005, 12:26 AM

And Larry is, I think mostly correct in the observation that most of what we did, did not produce a change in nature, at least I can speak for myself, and lots of others in TLW to be honest.

But John to me was a man with something fundamentally changed in his nature. Not saying it was all done, we know it was not. And the difference was that the Lord appeared to him.

He has not appeared to me, all the walkology stuff of the "Lord is appearing in the Word" etc not withstanding.

Same thing with Paul. He was a changed man because? The Lord appeared to him!

And the early church was effective, like it has not been since, because the resurrected Lord appeared to them.

I thought John's earlier teachings were basically aiming to get you to the place where you would, or could, seek for his appearing to you. Maybe I am mistaken?

Certainly in the 60's he preached relentlessly about "waiting on the Lord." That you MUST learn the voice of the Lord. He as much admitted in the 70's that he stopped teaching much in that vein because people would not do this...anything else but waiting on the Lord.

Paul Trowbridge

spaceman (spaceman)

11-01-2005, 06:06 PM

Very interesting commentary on being changed.
I agree that the only way for change to occur is through the exposure to Jesus (via worship, prayer, reading the Bible, waiting on the Lord etc.). I do believe that we all have an opportunity to see God in our lives (Matt 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"). And by this exposure, be changed in the process. I believe we are all made pure by the blood of the lamb. That brings about a fascinating topic of "how are we changed?"
I have been studying the practice of laying on of hands, as a means of impartation and change, and I was seeing that it is something done by the elders (as a group) and caution should be exercised in order that transference of sin might be avoided (1Tim 5:22 "Do not lay hands on anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others: keep yourself free from sin"). We sure did a lot of this in the "walk" years.
I have been concerned about how the practice of laying on of hands may have transferred oppressions to people if the careful scriptural guidelines haven't been used. I'd be very interested to hear what others think about this practice.
Larry, you mentioned that you often used a 6-pack of beer to "help you cope with your high spiritual level". What do you think about alcohol now? I have had a very negative experience with alcohol, since my father was an alcoholic and it created much destruction in our family.
Paul, were you at Shiloh during the summer of 1980? If so, we may have been room mates?
I enjoy the discussion.

Blessings, Spaceman

changedagain (changedagain)

11-01-2005, 07:00 PM

Paul:
"My criticism of the walk fellowship was/is a progressive minimizing of personal revelation to be substituted by submission."

I would say *that* would be the chief objection of many who left...that, in practice, there was no acknowledgement of the importance of an individual's personal understanding & relationship with the Lord. The emphasis was (& perhaps still is) on the commands of leadership--based on the leaders' interpretation of scriptures and John's teaching (trickled down from the top). In some ways there's a strong resemblance of TLWF to the Catholic church, with its emphasis on authority & preserving the institution..but I would bet, interestingly, there is more liberty in Catholicism than the TLWF. At least the average Catholic isn't worried about getting the priest's approval for their daily, often mundane, decisions--or being humiliated before the brethren for 'disobedience' (although it's difficult to compare that with a 'quiet' ex-communication).
Yes--the authoritarianism of TLWF, has led to an environment of fear--not growth & maturity. The old adage linking power with corruption tells much of the story, I think.

louann (louann)

11-01-2005, 10:28 PM

I do remember that the teachings of TLW when I entered (1975) had emphasis on waiting on the Lord (aka "contemplative prayer" and "lectio divina" in my current circles, BTW), reverence for the Word, and less authoritarianism than was the case when I finally left in 1984. With the changes came more emphasis on JRS personally, rather than the Word (IMHO). Never for one minute did I believe that JRS took glory and adulation to himself. He always struck me as a humble man. Like the present Pope, "a worker in the vineyard of the Lord." And, there was indeed a minimization of personal revelation. By the time I left, it was THEIR way or the highway! Never mind what God showed YOU! Paul, you are right about the earlier teachings. I remember being present when he told the aassembly that they did not wait on the Lord enough. Of course, that takes time and patience, and most folks would rather do something exciting! I do more "waiting on the Lord" now, as a Lutheran, than I ever did in the Walk.

Bill, I worked with Bro. Cronquist's daughter while I was a Shiloh, but I was never involved with the man, or with the other brother of whom you spoke. I sat under Bro. Thomas, Bro. Stevens, and John Miller.

Paul: I did not mean to imply that Bro. Stevens swiped revelations from others, only that it looked to me like some of his stuff might not have been original. I never considered him a fraud or charlatan. He was humble and sincere, not at all like a humbug. About the degree: Doctor of Divinity is an honorary degree when awarded by a university or seminary. It is not an academic degree like a PhD, Doctor of Ministry, Doctor of Theology, etc. Bro. Stevens did not have a seminary education, as far as I know.

I do believe that a lot of dysfunction was passed through the Body by intemperate laying-on of hands, even by JRS, when he had problems! Why else do you suppose we had all the marital problems and alcoholism? I have been told that JRS had a problem with alcohol. And, we know about the marital problems.

The thing went "off" after Marilyn got her fingers into it, and after there was too much adulation of JRS. Even the Pope does not get the kind of adulation I saw for JRS prior to his death.

To me,the whole thing is tragic. It was a great move of God, until Satan got his claws into it, and it was derailed. Now, it looks like the dwarves from C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" (We're not going to be taken in again. The Dwarves are for the Dwarves) BTW, I see this sort of mindset out in denomination-land also.

We need to take the advice of JRS, and come to know the voice of the Lord. And, how do we do that? Prayer, Scripture study, waiting on the Lord (preferably in silence!), fasting, etc. If we come to know that Voice, we will honor JRS by becoming what God wants us to become.

louann (louann)

11-01-2005, 10:31 PM

I do remember that the teachings of TLW when I entered (1975) had emphasis on waiting on the Lord (aka "contemplative prayer" and "lectio divina" in my current circles, BTW), reverence for the Word, and less authoritarianism than was the case when I finally left in 1984. With the changes came more emphasis on JRS personally, rather than the Word (IMHO). Never for one minute did I believe that JRS took glory and adulation to himself. He always struck me as a humble man. Like the present Pope, "a worker in the vineyard of the Lord."

And, there was indeed a minimization of personal revelation. By the time I left, it was THEIR way or the highway! Never mind what God showed YOU! Paul, you are right about the earlier teachings. I remember being present when he told the assembly that they did not wait on the Lord enough. Of course, that takes time and patience, and most folks would rather do something exciting! I do more "waiting on the Lord" now, as a Lutheran, than I ever did in the Walk.

Bill, I worked with Bro. Cronquist's daughter while I was a Shiloh, but I was never involved with the man, or with the other brother of whom you spoke. I sat under Bro. Thomas, Bro. Stevens, and John Miller.

Paul: I did not mean to imply that Bro. Stevens swiped revelations from others, only that it looked to me like some of his stuff might not have been original. I never considered him a fraud or charlatan. He was humble and sincere, not at all like a humbug. About the degree: Doctor of Divinity is an honorary degree when awarded by a university or seminary. It is not an academic degree like a PhD, Doctor of Ministry, Doctor of Theology, etc. Bro. Stevens did not have a seminary education, as far as I know.

I do believe that a lot of dysfunction was passed through the Body by intemperate laying-on of hands, even by JRS, when he had problems! Why else do you suppose we had all the marital problems and alcoholism? I have been told that JRS had a problem with alcohol. And, we know about the marital problems.

The thing went "off" after Marilyn got her fingers into it, and after there was too much adulation of JRS. Even the Pope does not get the kind of adulation I saw for JRS prior to his death.

To me,the whole thing is tragic. It was a great move of God, until Satan got his claws into it, and it was derailed. Now, what I see looks like the dwarves from C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" (We're not going to be taken in again. The Dwarves are for the Dwarves) BTW, I see this sort of mindset out in denomination-land also.

We need to take the advice of JRS, and come to know the voice of the Lord. And, how do we do that? Prayer, Scripture study, waiting on the Lord (preferably in silence!), fasting, etc. If we come to know that Voice, we will honor JRS by becoming what God wants us to become.

now_what (now_what)

11-02-2005, 01:01 AM

louann

Doctor of Divinity is an honorary degree when awarded by a university or seminary. It is not an academic degree like a PhD, Doctor of Ministry, Doctor of Theology, etc. Bro. Stevens did not have a seminary education, as far as I know.

I assumed that it was the same that a Dr. of Divinity was a PhD in Theology or some such. I know he went to some sort of seminary, would have go go through old tapes to find references.

He had an impressive library by the way, thousands of books.

Not really pointing out anything specifically about anyone personally, just saw several posts about JRS and the influence from Latter Rain. I have not studied it too much yet but will.

I was in many Thrusday morning services in the Valley when John used to move in personal revelation. The display of the Word of Wisdom, and the Word of Knowledge was still the highest level I have seen anyone move in. I could tell you stories.

Yes probably the laying on of hands indiscriminately was not scriptural.

I personally detested the forcing of us to sing in each other's face. I found it extemely embarassing and an assumption of intimacy I had no ability or desire to give on some whim. I know it drove men out of the church...too much new-age psycho feely to it.

I grew weary of the same songs, nothing new for years. The walk prides itself on their level of worship, but they do not know they have no corner on deep spiritual worship, maybe we did one time, but I can buy CD's now with beter songs and deeper worship.

I was in a Church in New York...Russian Jewish converts that had worship that would put you on your face.

spaceman. Was in Shiloh in 1978 and 1979, before that in the Valley Church, then afterwards in San Diego till 1983, then L.A. again, then to Shiloh from 84 to 95. That is when I started having more and more problems with so many of the practices.

I was disgusted with the adulation toward G&M. The rockstar treatement and the idiotic entourage following them around. The pushing of Marylyn's son as a leading ministry was wrong and may be the single biggest stumbling block to many.

People lived, and still do, for a pat on the head from them.

I spent from 95 to 2000 in San Diego again. Started disagreeing with the social club atmosphere developing there, and the personality cult around John Miller. So did others who left at that time.

I spent the last 5 years in D.C. and finally had enough of the control, to the point where somebody would tell you which seat to sit in during Shabbot dinner.

I think I remember you louann, but don't know if we ever talked.

P.S. I have been going to a little New Testament Church in Phoenix and just after a couple of conversations the Pastor wants me to bring the word. I got up and spoke a few weeks ago, and he just said after I was done: "I feel the presence of the Lord."

Contrast that with my last service in D.C. where the "shepherd," demanded to dictate the style and tone of my prophecy. I refused. He said, "I would rather you not speak." That was my last service.

They were in that BIG PROHECY VOICE style right then, and that was the rigid flow of the Holy Spirit, I guess I did't tune in.

And this from a man that knew me, and knows I do not get up and prattle and speak without revelation and an annointing. But O, boy that Divine Order, that is what is important..not people anymore!

/rant off

Paul Trowbridge

changedagain (changedagain)

11-02-2005, 03:07 PM

Paul,
I want you to re-submit your post. I'll be sending you the correct format...there were some paragraphs that should have preceded others, and vice-versa. Also you've been double spacing between paragraphs. The correct style calls for single spacing. Once you make the revised post, notify me and I'll check it for content (I can't provide you an email address, phone number or mailing address, so this will require work on your part--connecting with me). If the content is acceptable, you can post it.

love,
factnet shepherd

P.S. As you get ready to send your revised post, I would like you to read it first to someone's face...preferably someone you don't know too well. Read it slowly, deliberately & with great conviction...gazing into this person's eyes. Don't ever look away. This is a word.

winterland (winterland)

11-02-2005, 05:14 PM

First snow of the season here in Winterland!

Changedagain, I loved your humour. (please note canadian spelling) Very clever.

Now what, You really say a lot and give us a lot to think about. Thanks for contributing

I was wondering if you guys could tell me what the Living Word would mean by the phrases "serving the Christ in our brother" and "bringing forth the Christ in our brother." I know someone who used to be in the walk that talks a lot about this but I don't really know what they mean. I have MY idea of how you would do this but how would the Living Word bring forth and serve the Christ in our brother. Thanks

now_what (now_what)

11-02-2005, 07:05 PM

changedagain

Trying to make me laugh? Well its working. I probably knew you...back in Shiloh? Anyway, I was thinking I could read it again and maybe TRY to put more sincerity into my voice.

Maybe even sing it to some religious spirit that lives for those moments that will feel I have "taken down my walls," and finally let them minister Christ to me and then I will feel a LOT better, AND so will they.

Paul Trowbridge

daikon (daikon)

11-02-2005, 08:36 PM

Howdy all..

The snow must be beautiful winterland. I am grateful to say hurricane season is coming to an end here on the Gulf Coast. Hallelujah!

I came to Grace Chapel in the early 70's... I was not a practicing Christian at the time. I had no idea what Latter Rain was -- I still don't find it necessary to study various doctrines and their roots. My walk with God comes from listening to the still small voice (that could be called waiting on the Lord) and having a living relationship with God by the Holy Spirit and through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Not to denigrate those whose path differs from mine -- all the debates about which doctrine is best, what way to pray, who to follow etc. just aren't my personal cup of tea.
I loved JRS and many people I knew at TLW -- still do. I so completely agree that things began to change in the late 70's, and not for the better. In my opinion obviously -- or I would not have left.

I will always be grateful for what I learned in those years -- the basis of my walk with God. Thankfully, I never became bitter (though at times it was a temptation -- like when a pastor's wife stopped me in the middle of crying out to God in prayer to tell me my prayer "just wasn't right" -- male cow excrement, sister!)

And, I am sooo grateful -- somehow -- my walk with God has grown richer and deeper. I sincerely beleive I have changed. I know it, I know I think differently, what matters to me is different. I have joy in my heart easily accessible even in the roughest times. What a gift to even have the desire to know the Truth.

now_what - Paul -- I appreciate your take on TLW, I agree with your assessment.
I wonder if there will be a time when some of us who left will indeed be welcomed back as brothers and sisters with shoulders to shoulders instead of following some misplaced line of submission?

One can hope. Peace.

louann (louann)

11-02-2005, 10:16 PM

Paul:

You would probably remember me, as I am an organist. I was at Shiloh 1978-1984, working in the Music Department with Nancy Roselund, on a new hymnal (which never got off the ground!). They had me there because of my music degrees, including training in musicology and hymnody. Of course, that was subject to the discernment of others.....

Recently I worshiped in a Benedictine monastery in Indiana. Gregorian chant! Talk about awesome! So many and diverse ways to worship God and to honor the King.

Never was impressed with young Brother Holbrook, BTW. Nor with G & M. Probably the reason I was asked to leave Shiloh. I had been in strict Pentecostalism prior to getting into the Walk, and that probably saved me from the very worst theological excesses. Sorry to hear about the personality cult around John Miller -- thought he knew better than that! Of course he is human, and that kind of adulation is a major temptation.

Best wishes to everyone. Bless ou all!

winterland (winterland)

11-04-2005, 04:42 PM

Daidon; Thank you for sharing your beautiful story regarding your relationship with the Lord. It is my prayer that everyone reading and writing on these sites will be able to have the same testimony as you. Wow, what a fall it has been on the gulf coast for hurricanes. I have watched in awe. It is hard to imagine what one would be like when you live in Canada. Did the hurricanes miss you or were you in the middle of it? Yes the snow is beautiful, yesterday it was sunny, so it was really nice. A person does get tired of it by May though!

Louann; You certainly have had an interesting spiritual path. What sort of worship are you involved with in the Luthern church? There is some wonderful music coming forth isn't there.

Larry or Paul; I was wondering if you would give me your insight into impartation. I think it was probably excessively relied upon in the Walk. Do you think people were looking for an "easy way" to avoid the discipline of a personal devotional life? That is really sad because it is from the personal devotional life where the "safeguards" come. What do you think?

now_what (now_what)

11-04-2005, 05:26 PM

winterland

Regarding "impartation."

I don't think the imparters, or the impartees were spiritual enough for it to be effective.

The more I go, the more I think nothing replaces your own prayer, fasting, repentence. If JRS was anything to me, he was a model of the intensity and violent focus you must have to seek God...and that on a daily basis.

Never the less the scriptures are clear that something can be imparted...but I am sure the quality of the impartation has more to do with the preparation of the soil to receive. John used to talk about the old days when they would cry out before the Lord and pray all night for the "baptism of the spirit."

Now he said a lot of that was works and old order, and you could just open up and receive the spirit, but he also said that sometimes all that crying out to God produced a much deeper experience in the individual than what he was witnessing even in the Walk.

Certainly his baptism in the Spirit exceeded any I have heard from members in the current Walk...you have to ask what was the difference? Must have been the preparation in John who was in those all nights of prayer as a little kid.

Why do all the founders of movements have a deeper experience than all the subsequent members and followers in that movement? From Martin Luther onward.

John used to decry this fact and strove to create something in the Walk that would counter this condition. And yet we have, and are going in the same path as all moves of God...the subsequent generations have less, and less experience, and more and more doctrine.

I can hope that many become dissatisfied with "doctrine," and seek for their own living experience. Maybe becoming disatissfied and having arguments with walk doctrine is not such a bad thing, but the stirring of spiritual hunger in yourself.

Perhaps the spiritual experience demands you go "outside the camp," even as the Lord. The walk went outside the camp of organized religion and broke into new spiritual territory. But maybe that pattern must be repeated on a deeper and individual level.

Beyond individual criticisms and picking on certain practices in the TLW fellowship perhaps the deeper reason is a dissatissfaction of the status quo.

Many in the walk have stopped going anywhere. A self-contained perpetually re-inforcing society thinking they are cutting edge. I don't think it is, since the demand for conformity and control has become more important the any other aspect. And certain things have become more stylistic (such as a certain voce in prophecy)

Our own vocabulary that at one time was unique and evidence of breaking new ground. But now the dreary overuse of words like "awesome," or "transition," or "fun," become a warning that you have lost imagination and vision.

Paul Trowbridge

winterland (winterland)

11-04-2005, 06:51 PM

Paul, thank you for your insight. Would you read my Nov. 2 question. I'd like your opinion. Thanks. Bless you from Canada

winterland (winterland)

11-04-2005, 07:02 PM

PS I've been studying the New Testament Church Manual and Lesson 24 has a wonderful outline of "What are the experiences or gifts that I may receive through other believers ministering to me?

Of all of the material I have seen, heard and studied from my years in the Walk, I love the manuals the best. They are just simple outlines and the Bible references. Nothing else, and they are so rich. IMHO

now_what (now_what)

11-04-2005, 10:50 PM

winterland:

I was wondering if you guys could tell me what the Living Word would mean by the phrases "serving the Christ in our brother" and "bringing forth the Christ in our brother." I know someone who used to be in the walk that talks a lot about this but I don't really know what they mean. I have MY idea of how you would do this but how would the Living Word bring forth and serve the Christ in our brother. Thanks

I think the general intent and original thinking would be tied to just a humble serving of one another. (Christ washing the disciples feet)

We used to do that and I think was tied into the idea of "body ministry." When I was first in the body (1973) you would go to the Living Word building and duplicate tapes, or do collating of This Weeks.

I remember moving a lot of people. I remember one guy was a really good mechanic and he did a lot of cheap or even free work for people in the church. Sometimes this was abused. And all his time was being used up to provide "body ministry" to people without much money, but they needed their cars fixed. He eventually blew out. Maybe he was rebellious?

And if you were a young guy and had a pickup truck you could easily become the "free moving service...serving Christ in my brother deacon."

Later on it became more and more related to submitting to your shepherd, and by that you helped Christ to come forth in that individual.

Once again these are concepts that can be found, at least, nominally in the scriptures, but without greater spiritual maturity on everyone's part it can become abusive.

It is like the idea of communism. I can trace it back to the early church where everything was held in common.

But that community had a far greater indwelling of the Holy Spirit and even then that only lasted about 50 years or so. Contrast that to the practice in communist countries where the theory is all well and good. But we know it ends up with a few...Lording it over the many, and a most miserable freedom-killing system it becomes.

Writing this it makes me think that we get revelation and ideas, but are not really deep enough to implement those ideas. Unfortunately after everyone gets hurt, it is hard to implement those ideas, even if they were the right thing, in principle.

Paul Trowbridge

winterland (winterland)

11-05-2005, 03:04 PM

Paul; "....but I am sure the quality of the impartation has more to do with the preparation of the soil to receive." Thanks. Understanding the importance of preparation regarding impartation. That was the key thing I was overlooking.

I'm still chewing on the topic "How do we serve the Christ in our brother?" I like to ask the Lord questions. I appreciate your comments. I do remember some of the ways we would "serve our brother" in the walk. The question I am asking the Lord now is.......How do you want me to serve my brother today? In the past I experienced an element of servitude or slavery in my "service" that I don't think was right. So how does a person "serve" without it being an oppressisve thing? I know the key is that it has to be "IN" the Lord. But I am still seeking for a deeper understanding. Thanks for sharing your experiences and viewpoint. It has been very helpful. Bless you. Anyone else's comments are welcome too.

spaceman (spaceman)

11-05-2005, 06:23 PM

Paul

You wrote: "I remember one guy who was a very good mechanic and he did cheap or even free work for people in the church. Sometimes this was abused."

It reminded me of the song by the Village People in the '70s called "In the Navy". We used to change the words around and sing it to that tune. Our words were:

"He's in the body, you can screw your fellow man. He's in the body, you can take him for all you can. He's in the body"
Clap clap clap. Clap clap clap. Clap clap clap
clap clap clap clap clap.

daikon (daikon)

11-06-2005, 05:58 PM

"Serving Christ in your brother"....

Refer to the two great commandments from Jesus Christ (Matthew 22:36-40)--
First, know that these supercede the ten. The ten are "shalt not" -- what you shouldn't do; the two are "shalt" -- what you should do. Subtle but amazing difference, no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus... who fulfilled the law and prophets... and so on.

It is important to note however, if you fulfill the two you will also be fulfilling the ten. Loving God with all your heart, soul, might [mind] doesn't leave room within you for the things that one harbors allowing them to commit offenses against the law of the ten. And your neighbor as yourself (your self being focused on God as in commandment #1) brings the fruit of that love into the world, actions and deeds. Faith with works.

We serve Christ in our brother from the overflow having a personal relationship with God creates. When our brother or sister edify us by word or deed -- you know, when you go "yes" and just know your understanding/revelation of God's truth has been expanded -- Christ within is served. This is also accomplished (granted, without the "yes") by who we are among all the people we come into contact with. In the world, not of it.

Then if you fix my car -- well, that's kindness born from the same fruit. Done willingly it blesses us both. Done as an institutional prefect, it could become a stumbling block or a burden and then at least one of us loses... and that does not fulfill the two commandments.

Peace

ps - winterland
Where I am now was spared the full frontal hurricane assault, which was such a blessing because so many people had come to the Houston/Galveston area for refuge.
And dang, it's still so hot and mucky humid here, snow sounds wonderful!
Me, I'll be going home to So Cal after the first of the year... one big reason why my interest in TLW has become so acute. I pray about whether or not to attend a service, connect with some old, dear friends. We'll see.

louann (louann)

11-08-2005, 10:30 PM

Hi. Been VERY BUSY. A couple of thoughts.

First, in answer to the question about Lutheran worship: Well, some Walkies would find it "old order", but I love it. Old hymns and new. Many great composers were Lutheran. We do treasures old and new.

About impartation: there may be something to it, but I can remember people wanting me to lay hands on them to impart my skills as an organist: skills won by very hard work! These folk were not willing to do the work.

Christ in my brother. The Rule of St. Benedict states that all guests are to be received as if they were Christ himself. They are also supposed to treat each other that way as well. The Rule of St. Benedict is the finest available guide to communal living, and it's only 1500 years old!

winterland (winterland)

11-09-2005, 12:32 AM

Louann, always nice to hear from you. You have had such a different "church experience" from most of us reading this board. I always find your comments very interesting. Did you work on the songbook that was in the red three-ringed,loose-leaf notebook? I actually have one of those sitting on our piano. What exactly did you and Nancy do at Shiloh in the research/music department?

Thank you to everyone on their comments on impartation and serving the Christ in our brother. Does anyone think that the Walk relied too much on impartation and believed that too many things would be received through "spiritual osmosis?" There just are not that many short cuts to the Lord's work in our life. Most things take time and maturity to develop and an open heart to seek the Lord for his work to be done in our lives.

It's been snowing again this week. Even Houston looks good from here. Bless you all.

pilgrim

03-12-2006, 12:33 AM

To Everyone,

Does the Church of The Living Word (The WalK) has any branches in Latino America or Spain? If yes, in which countries do they have the branches and what is the name of this church in spanish?

I would be grateful for any information about the work of The Church of the Living Word in Latino America.

Blessings

Pilgrim

winterland

03-12-2006, 03:14 PM

Pilgrim, (A very interesting name. See Jer. 6:16
God bless you on your journey)

In answer to your question I would contact the Living Word Fellowship at thelivingword.org
and click on "contact information" I emailed them a question regarding "contacts" and they were very prompt and helpful.

momster

12-08-2006, 06:48 AM

I am not and have never been a member of LWF. My daughter has been a member for 32 years. When she was younger, I was extremely concerned about her dependance on the group, at the expense of her family. Over the years I have met many other members of this group and have been impressed at how nice and intelligent they are. Even though I recognize this group as a cult and think they have weird ways I didn't really see any harm in it. I have become quite fond of many of my daughter's friends, who are members. I feel the attraction is the closeness of the friendships.

Here is my concern. I believe Gary and Marilyn Hargrave are using the naivety of the members to amass wealth for themselves. I have seen the oceanfront property with pool on Oahu. I have seen the home in Waikiki. My daughter and another woman were assigned to clean the house three times a week while the Hargraves were in Brazil. The Honolulu property wasn't elaborate enough until the members donated their time to build a sanctuary, adding thousands of dollars to the value. I have just returned from Maui where I saw the many acres of property and the meeting building, which will be replaced with a new sanctuary built by, you guessed it, the parishioners. Mention was made that someone was over at Gary and Marilyn's house, cleaning the yard. These are just the places I've seen. I've heard they have other houses and a business. The property I saw in Iowa was like a bunkhouse when I visited in the early '80s. Now it's a showplace. Who actually owns all this property?

I have, also, noticed the lack of doing any kind of work in the community. No food for the poor. No churches in slum areas. Just work to enhance the value of the property.

What can be done to help these folks see what's happening to them? Most of them have been together for so long so I have no desire to see them break apart. I just wish they would be able to see what they're letting those people do to them.

louann

12-08-2006, 05:43 PM

Hi!

I was involved in The Living Word from 1975-1984, and lived at Shiloh 1978-1984. I also lived in Waco, Texas from 1984 till 2006 (I was NOT part of the Branch-Davidians, but I certainly saw their effect on the community during the big debacle in 1994.)

I think that folks who have been in a group like TLW for a very long time have great difficulty seeing what it really is, and even if they do, all their friends are in the group, and what in the world would they do? Also, when you have had your information "filtered", like they have done in TLW (at least when I was there), you really might not know whether black is black or white.

One of the damning things about cults is that too many of them have the leadership living "high on the hog" and the "little people" living like mountain goats or worse! I firmly believe that Gary and Marilyn are indeed taking advantage of the dedication of their followers. Your concerns are well-founded. The best thing you can do is to pray for your daughter, that she see the truth someday. I will pray for you.

momster

12-09-2006, 04:11 AM

Thanks for your words, Luann. I'm sure the Hargraves are very good at keeping within the law, even if they are not acting ethically. Religions are not subject to taxes the same way the rest of us are. I sure would love to have them investigated. It isn't right for followers to give their time, effort, money and dedication to them, personally. I would be proud of them if they helped hungry people or those affected by disasters. They do none of this. It all goes to Gary and Marilyn.

winterland

12-11-2006, 06:07 PM

The question isn't who OWNS the assets of TLWF, the question is who CONTROLS the assets.

Momster, It sounds like you have a fairly good relationship with your daughter which is wonderful and the most important thing. If you come across like you are attacking the Living Word, you may damage that relationship. You might ask your daughter if the Living Word has anyone in their fellowship that helps people with financial planning and retirement plans. I am guessing that your daughter is 50ish and should be looking at her finances for the future. If she has given a lot of her time and money to the Living Word Fellowship, she may not have much savings. I think the biggest problem in the Living Word is that many people are unbalanced. They have it in their heart to give and give and give. If you could get your daughter to at least begin to think about her financial future that would be a good thing.

now_what

12-11-2006, 06:23 PM

momster

Thanks for your words, Luann. I'm sure the Hargraves are very good at keeping within the law, even if they are not acting ethically. Religions are not subject to taxes the same way the rest of us are. I sure would love to have them investigated. It isn't right for followers to give their time, effort, money and dedication to them, personally. I would be proud of them if they helped hungry people or those affected by disasters. They do none of this. It all goes to Gary and Marilyn.

These are baseless acustations. You do not know if they are unetheical at all, and we all pay taxes...churches don't pay taxes. Gary and Marilyn have an income upon which they pay taxes. The also tithed and gave MORE than they took in from the Living Word fellowship if my information is correct.

Unless you were in all the serivces you do NOT know if they took up offerings for Katrina victims, or how much people gave personally.

G&M cannot come on here and defend themselves so have some FACTS please. Let's not translate doctrinal disagreements to attacks on people's character. I don't have any suspicion that Gary and Marylyn are sneaking around the outskirts of the law to increase their personal wealth.

Maybe they are walking with God as He has instructed them, if they are, then they are doing better than me, or maybe most of us.

Also the Living Word Fellowship never had an emphasis upon evangelism, it had an emphasis on publishing John Steven's Word. I am increasingly careful to NOT impune the motivation of others, just because I do not understand what they are doing. I would rather first suspect my own motivation. It cannot be an easy thing to lead a church fellowship in this day and age.

winterland

12-11-2006, 08:14 PM

Now What; I like momster. She is a mother and is obviously a senior who has lived a long time and seen a lot and learned a lot in her life. She stated "My daughter and another woman were assigned to clean the house three times a week while the Hargraves were in Brazil." Momster obviously loves her daughter and is concerned for her and is concerned about some of the things that her daughter is doing. I think Momster is asking for help and information from us--people who know and understand the Living Word from the inside. Put yourself in Momster's shoes. If you saw you beloved daughter in this same situation you too would be concerned. And I truly hope that the Living Word cares for Momster's daughter half as much as Momster does. I am a mother and I know what a mother's love is.

winterland

12-11-2006, 08:30 PM

Momster: I have total trust in the love that the Lord Jesus Christ has for you and your daughter. I know that the Lord Jesus Christ is at work in your life and in the life of your daughter. We do entrust our children into the care of the Heavenly Father and He hears our prayers.

ps; I trust in the love of the Lord for you too, now what.

momster

12-28-2006, 08:33 AM

Yes, winterland. I am only interested in bringing facts to the surface. I am not interested in peoples religious beliefs. That is each person's own business. I am concerned about the safety of my family and friends, and feel, as a citizen, it is my duty to see that the law is upheld.

The people I have met in this group, over the years, are wonderful. I don't care how they want to worship. I just don't like to see them taken advantage of because they are so naive.

My wish is that the leadership would be investigated. Even if they aren't doing anything illegal, it's still immoral to take advantage of gullible people.

cedarrapidsletter

01-07-2007, 09:18 AM

Momster, would you like some cheese with that whine?

I’ll admit the Fellowship has its problems, and some of them are severe, but they are not malignant, they are dynamic. I do conclude though, the casual observer may not understand the difference. I’m not going to even try to address that, but I will attempt to address your concerns.

Your daughter, in her formable years was taught to think under your parentage. Now 32 years later don't you suppose it is time for you to respecter her decisions, whether you agree with them or not. She is an adult, and has been for some time now. If, for some reason she has not wanted to go to school to learn about financial matters, (matters which are offered at the adult school / high school level in my area), in the Living Word Fellowship churches, she could ask for help from the elders or many others in the church. I know, most can give at least, rudimentary directions in these things. Not a few are business owners themselves.

But, most of us (those in the Church that I know well) have taken control of our lives and have financial plans in the works. Some of us have been doing so for decades. Most of us learned to do it in our youth. If your daughter didn't learn these things at home then why not? Don't blame the church for what even you failed at doing for your daughter. And it just isn’t your daughter, it is a national problem; fewer than 40% of Americans over 50 have made any plans at all for retirement.

To answer winterland's questions about retirement and investing for church members, yes I have sat through several financial seminars, in the various TLWF churches and at camp at Shiloh. These seminars introduced financial planning at various stages in investment and life. Offers were made for more in-depth information and training. Almost overwhelming amounts of handout materials were offered to everyone in attendance. Many took advantage of both. I am aware, that from time to time classes are offered in the church to help the young adults (and anyone else who wants it) balance their check books and help them to stay out of debt. But again, these things and more are also available at all levels of adult education in the communities we all live in. It is unfair to blame the church for personal ignorance.

If one were to ask, “Where does the wealth of the Churches come from?” None of the churches are rich in my estimation, but then none of them are in disrepair either. I would answer; it comes in a great measure from the trust fund set up at JRS’ death from large life insurance policies he had, the instructions of which were to benefit the Living Word churches. Through wise investments and planning that money continues to grow and many large projects have been paid for from that trust fund. A couple of times a year the congregations are given the opportunity to contribute to that fund. Often people prefer to contribute with their time and talents rather than their excess finances. Some will contribute both time and money. Some (this evidently may surprise you) even get paid for their labor and not a few projects have been contracted out.

cedarrapidsletter

01-07-2007, 09:22 AM

John Stevens often encouraged us to stay out of debt. He practiced that with his churches also. Some of the churches were a result of his own money and physical labor along with those that shared his vision. Others were built in other places by church members because they could and wanted too and it helped minimize debt. Now if you were to bring up Shiloh, perhaps it got out of control, but that is a debate that can go on forever.

You may never have had the experience of looking for a loan to build a church. They are hard to find, especially if the congregation is small. You see, church congregations tend to be very fluid. When the going gets tough, congregations get going (away that is). For a small congregation with vision, a do it yourself attitude may be the best option.

Some of you writing here seem to think the Fellowship is a pack of misled fools. Please be aware that since the time some of you separated from the fellowship, many of us have grown up, just as you have matured. We have many medical doctors and some are specialists. We have nurses, RN’s and Nurse Practitioners. We have many engineers, accountants, and lawyers and a few scum-bag lawyers too. There are police officers and other law enforcement titles. The man that introduced me to the Church was an Assistant District Attorney for the city of Los Angeles. He taught Sunday School (Church at Study). Later he became involved in California Government in Sacramento and later still was appointed by President Clinton to represent the United States at the World Court at the Haig. Though he did not remain in the church, he taught and influenced many of us. (He died recently.) We have construction contractors; one of them has built several public schools. Over 1/3 of the church will stand up when the pastors ask to bless our teachers in the congregation. These are California certified teachers, many with higher degrees. There is someone who writes textbooks for a living though he may be more a part of the Factnet group now. There are Fellowship members in higher management positions within JPL, Caltech and NASA, involved in this country’s space program. You must realize when you speak to the people in the churches; many have made a conscious and very intended decision to be open, humble and generous in both time and money. You simply don’t realize who some of these people have developed into. Don’t mistake their attitude and generosity for gullibility. Now if everyone were a would-be Hollywood actor, your accusations might be right, but you are talking and accusing without knowledge. (On the side, please pray for our ones who are trying to break into that industry that they might be a righteous influence on our nation’s pastimes.)

Momster, your impressions were made in Hawaii apparently. Please realize that in California and Hawaii some of your best investments are in land. If you can get a toe- hold in the market there, you will probably make money over time. Using JRS’ investments in Honolulu over time, the church there recently stumbled on to a great property at a great price (it has beach access). Adding a parsonage to the property brought it up to a similar configuration as the old church property. The beautiful upgrade becomes a very prudent decision for the long run of the church there. I may or may not know your daughter, but I thank her for what she is doing there.

Now the investor in these areas may not look wealthy; they may not drive a great car, live in a big house. Some may not even appear to work hard and when they sell, they may not even spend their money the way you would have them spend it. Maybe they will put it where their heart is, but then isn’t that what being an American, especially a Christian American is all about?

cedarrapidsletter

01-07-2007, 09:23 AM

Would you criticize the Catholic Church for the gullibility of its nuns and priests in their vows of poverty, too; or are you just picking a bone with the Living Word fellowship? Many people of many religions express their love for God or religion with their time and money.

Momster, Please, don’t think I give time and money because I’m stupid and easily misled. I do it because I want too, I’ve planned for it, and now I can. It pleases me and it gives me a nice tax write off. I see my gifts of time and tithe as profitable to the Church and its vision as well as the community I live and work in. When the church prospers, the neighborhood prospers. When the neighborhood prospers, we all live more comfortably. Good things given have a way of coming back in a good way.

We may not do big give-away programs well, but we do things that help our communities: such as low cost, high quality Christian schools with beautiful campuses available to the neighbors to the capacity of the school. The San Diego church and school have been a leader in coordinating public and parochial school cooperation in California. They have received both acclaim and condemnation from various political figures. (I’ll let you figure out the specifics) More and more parochial schools are following their lead. In the Valley, I know, our schools’ students have the opportunity to earn college credits while in high school.

We are making conscious efforts to curtail drug and gang activities in our communities and have been thanked numerous times by the Police Department for our proactive efforts to keep our surrounding neighborhoods safe. Our people are involved in community, health, business, military, government and church, and (thank God) our leaders prosper. You call us a gullible people, but we are really far more involved, blessed and visionary than the casual observer may understand.

Tell me who is the more gullible; the person who gives a handout to a homeless drug addict or the person who gives time and effort to build a church and school and tries to keep others from gangs and drugs. I’m not trying to sell the church or justify this church to anyone. What I’ve mentioned above, any dynamic church, synagogue or temple would do, and some perhaps more. The difference in the Living Word Fellowship and the rest of Christianity is in its teachings. I can understand you coming after that, but you don’t like the way many members give of their time and tithe, and you don’t like it that the church lets them do it. Just how much more trite can one get than that?

When I was a kid, our family went to a Lutheran Church for a short while. The pastor asked my Dad to use his backhoe and other machinery to grade the lot and to dig the foundation and other trenches for the construction of a new sanctuary. My dad sent me with the equipment. Neither my Dad nor I was paid for my effort or his investment in machinery, except my Dad got a nice write-off at tax time. Many churches do business that way. Many business and people help churches that way.

cedarrapidsletter

01-07-2007, 09:24 AM

In a far deeper and more spiritual way than I described above, we are actually trying to be Christians as described and directed in the New Testament. Of course, our culture is different and our opportunities are different from New Testament times, but the pursuit is the same; to see Christ glorified.

Now, if in your casual impressions you find disfavor with any of this, I find my favorite cheese, Jarlsberg, goes well with merlot. Try it with sourdough bread and apple slices shared with a friend; it’s my favorite snack. My wife prefers to skip the sourdough and dip the apples in caramel, but please, whining does not become you.

CRL

PS: I hope everyone had a very wonderful Christmas. Peace and good will to all!

changedagain

01-08-2007, 12:48 AM

Momster:
"My daughter and another woman were assigned to clean the house three times a week while the Hargraves were in Brazil."

Who assigned your daughter the task of cleaning the Hargraves home?

"I believe Gary and Marilyn Hargrave are using the naivette of the members to amass wealth for themselves."

If there is a pressure, subtle or otherwise, for church members to provide free services to the Hargraves...while the Hargraves are paid quite handsomely for their service to the church, you have a point here. I know during my lengthy involvement in TLWF, as a middle manager (shepherd), I had ample opportunity for members to 'serve' me in this manner, which I resisted.
Since many that offered their service were barely able to make ends meet themselves, I could not in good conscience take what they offered...although I could easily justify doing so by quoting much of the teachings at the time--which involved the 'upward flow' (importance of the 'sheep' to give themselves in a tangible manner to their 'shepherds,' as part of the process of their own spiritual growth).
BTW Momster, I do not think that your expression comes anywhere close to the definition of 'whining.' In fact, if people within TLWF felt more freedom to ask the kinds of questions you pose, without fear of reprisal (being labeled a whiner, rebel, or worse)...I don't think TLWF would be faced with such a backlash today.
And in case anyone here wonders from whence I come...let me just say that I have a long history of providing volunteer labor to TLWF & its leadership (approx. 16-20 hrs. a week over a 20 yr. period)...so I have no qualms challenging its beliefs and practices. I think I've earned that right.
Heck--I would even welcome the Hargraves personally presenting their side of things on this board...even if what they had to say came across in a defensive, whining manner. Tone should not be the issue here--and they should not worry about that.
Oh, almost forgot....
Merry Christmas!

winterland

01-09-2007, 05:36 PM

Over the last year I had the opportunity to attend a weekend seminar in a "denominational" church where the speaker was teaching the people how to hear the voice of the Lord for themselves. This teaching was very similar to what John Stevens taught in the School of Prophets lessons but this training was now being embraced by a mainsteam church. I had the opportunity to speak with the pastor that hosted the seminar at a six-month follow up session and I asked him how the people in his church were receiving this teaching. He said, "This way of walking is like learning a completely different culture." He understood that the people in his church were so accustomed to coming to church to be taught that moving them beyond this point to where they would develop their own personal relationship with the Lord was very difficult. He said that a lot of people had left the church in the previous months because they were more interested in a "social church" than a deeper relationship with the Lord. But the pastor was continuing to lead his people in this direction.

I remember John Stevens telling us that this move into the Kingdom (where we all know the Lord) will be a bigger step than it was for people to leave Pentecost and move into This Walk.

Yes, the people in the LW have a deep dedication and have been trained to serve "the Christ in my brother." The shepherds and leaders in tlw have a hugh responsibility to see that this service is not abused and to examine their teachings and practices always with the thinking.....The Lord cares about His sheep. Is this teaching causing growth in the sheep? Yes, the people have personal responsibility but they have been trained to follow and to submit. Have they been trained to hear the voice of the Lord for themselves?

I remember John Stevens speaking about his "life motto." And this is in my own words because I don't have an exact quote. .....To be willing to let go of the good for the better, and the better for the best.

This process of letting go of the better for the best is not easy but I can testify by my own experience with the Lord that it is well worth it.

momster

01-17-2007, 03:28 AM

I guess the part that confuses me about the values of this group is that they think giving money and time to a person is the same as giving it to God. I am not only saying this about the "Word" group. I feel the same way about churches who make members feel guilty if they don't cough up the dough. You mentioned the good investments in Hawaii and California. Is the purpose of this group to amass more and more valuable property? I feel the same way about several other well known churches, so maybe this doesn't bother others. I don't think God needs money and property.

I've gotten away from the subject I'm most concerned about. I have kept quiet about this for 32 years. My family, and her friends, don't say anything to her about what is obvious because she is so immeshed in it and when you're so involved in it for so long, you lose site of what is really happening. She spends hours and hours each week doing duties that she can't seem to hand over to anyone else. Maybe that's just her own fault. The people are wonderful and become closer and closer over the years. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the reason people who seem so strong get involved in these groups is that they're stubborn and can't admit that they have a weakness. There's no reason why they shouldn't stay friends. It just hurts me and our family to see people like Dave and Marilyn take advantage of them.

muckmeister

04-23-2007, 03:54 AM

momster,

I'm not confused about your confusion....your post puts your confusion very clearly....you don't believe in anything except what you want to believe in.........quote.. "I don't think God needs money and property." I believe That statement alone needs some thought...maybe even prayer. I wouldn't want someonme managing my family finances...my budget...my retirement....my monthly payments...if they felt God didn't need or want any of what He gives to me to manage for a life on this side of creation.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

quickspirit

06-20-2007, 12:24 PM

I want to share something with everyone. Check out this website on Ruckins McKinley <font color="0000ff">http://www.demnstrate.com/ruckins/default.htm</font> He wrote a wonderful book called The Sound of This Generation. It lays out a vision of the 3rd generation (X) ministry. It really blessed me, I believe it would bless you.

I left the walk in 84 or 85. I kept trying to return but there was always something off/wrong. I was raised Catholic and it all seemed like fairy tales to me. I wanted it to be real. I wanted to know. I sat at John's feet and he taught me what I needed. He opened the door for me to have a walk with the Lord Jesus, a real relationship with Him. I will always love John for the wonderful gift he gave me. I believe for all of you to find that for yourselves. I hope you get a chance to see this before this site shuts down.

quickspirit

06-21-2007, 12:18 AM

Does anyone remember John's burden to set up a legal covering for all the churches? He wanted to be sure each one was individually owned by the members of that specific congregation, especially after Martha and the divorce. He did not want that type of situation to ever be able to happen again. Close that open door. So where did the trust come from? Why were g&m able to sell off the churches in the first place? That definately was not John's vision for them.

He always refused to go ahead without us. We all had to enter in together. I remember g&m moving into things and then dangling what they had in front of the rest of us to entice rather than freely giving what had been given. Sharing the blessing of the Lord. There was preaching on exclusivity. Gideon's 300.

You can't set limits on how you will walk with Him and expect to remain in His perfect will. I remember g&m saying there were things they would not be. That's setting a limit. How could things continue to grow and move forward under something like that? Heavy handed shepherding restricted sheep to death and stunted growth in the Lord Jesus. I left because of being restricted nearly to death. I am to be a healer of the breaches in the body. How could I heal breaches if I wasn't allowed to relate to any other members of any body? I saw all of these things and grieved over them. I still grieve over them.

I saw efforts at outreach stopped. Fresno was moving and flowing with 2 or 3 other churches in the area. I was there. It was beautiful. When it was submitted, the church was shut down and sold.

There was a local outreach to the black community in the LA area. There was a beautiful response there as well. Again, the move was stopped and then South Gate itself was sold. These things happened. I was there. I saw it all. So I grieve in the Spirit. But the thing is that I saw God move in other churches after John died. I saw His Word going on. What was spoken into the Spirit goes on.

There is a book called The Godchasers by Tommy Tenny. There is the ministry of Ruckins McKinley who ministered along with Billy Graham. Isn't that main stream Christianity? Check it out for yourself. Explore. God did not stop moving. People stopped. I bless you all to find Him in Truth for yourselves. If the drive is in your heart God will meet you. You are not alone. He is here with us.