Shiloh Kalona Iowa Cult

[xstudent]

I was raised in this church /school cult from age 4-12. I was severely physically abused and it bordered on sexual considering they always took off your pants/underwear when they "spanked" you! I was severely beaten at age 6 by two "teachers" named Jay and Jane Montgomery. I was hit 100 times with a very large paddle with holes in it. I had been put on a high table on my stomach, pants off, and hit over and over during a church service in a room off the service area! Another girl was with me named Lisa ( i will leave out her last name for her privacy)she was also beaten in the same way. We were being "punished" for throwing small pencil erasers at eachother in class. I saw many other similiar things happen to other children-line ups where all had to bend over and be hit with the large padlde with holes in the gym. Mouths being washed out with soap, etc. It was and is a perverted cult full of power hungry controlling people! Stay away from this place!!!!!
xstudent

[xstudent]

I just spoke online with another girl who had the same abuse happen to her as a child at the Kalona Iowa Shiloh cult. It was done by the same pervert Jane Montgomery. My abuse was Jane Montgomery and her husband Jay Mongomery. There was another girl with me named Lisa who was abused the same way at the same time. So now there are 3 girls I know of, and probably many, many more!!! This Shiloh is full of crazy cult members so never get sucked in !!! Stay away

[Hip 20]

We have some good friends that go there. I really want to get involved and ask them questions. Is this a branch of Scientology?

[Anonymous]

xstudent,
have you conytacted the authorities about the goings on in this abusive cult? You should, to save other children from what you went through.

[Anonymous]

Are they the Old Order Amish that you are refering to?

[Joseph Grant]

This is interesting. I've been a member of this church since 1970 and have never seen, heard, nor witnessed the accusations of the above. I've seen a lot of accusations from some that were utterly false, due to rumors and how they grow, without verification. In all integrity, xstudent must have had a very isolated experience and is very bitter.

[Anonymous]

I heard that this cult is a neo-nazi place or something, and that they shoot at people when they come on their property. will someone validate what really goes on there and what it really is please? thanks

[JosephGrant]

Anonymous,
Shiloh is a church camp for the Living Word Fellowship: http://www.thelivingword.org. No guns. No Nazis. No "cult atmosphere". Just your basic Christian fundamentalists.

[Anonymous]

Joseph Grant is quite correct. Shiloh is also a local community church with hundreds of congregants, many who have been involved since the 1970's. Its church services and grounds are completely open to the public and it's pastors are good standing members in the Mid-Prairie Churches Council, a local organization of ministers of all faiths. I am sure those who attend the church, or even those in the community who are aquainted with those who do would doubt the accusations made on this bulletin board. Not to criticize xstudent for anything he/she has alledged to have experianced as a child but why make such strong public accusational statements about a group that has such a good record in their local community?

[Anonymous]

Shiloh has fine, upstanding citizens. It's theology is very questionable at best and is based on the "word" of John Robert Stevens and Gary Hargrave. They are *not* "Christian fundamentalists" by any stretch of the imagination. They believe that John Robert Stevens died in 1983 (June 4th) and "took down Satan." Marilyn, his former wife, married Gary Hargrave, and both continue a "fathering" ministry for a bunch of apostolic misfits while doing quite well for themselves financially. This is very much a "family=oriented" church as there are relatively few new converts and the church continues from generation to generation. Children are indoctrinated at an early age to accept the church's teachings and continue in submission to Gary and Marilyn. Emotional ties play a huge role in keeping this organization together. The gospel message is occasionally taught here as a "salvation experience," but it is mixed with so much other mumbo-jumbo as to be barely recognizable to most. Jesus and God are rarely talked about in deference to Gary, Marilyn, and the current Apostles.

They are not associated with the Amish in any way.

I can verify that part of what xstudent claims to have occurred is true. The private school that was called the "Centers of Learning at Shiloh" and has since been shutdown for various reasons during the '80s. A paddle for spanking was used regularly and mouths were washed out with soap. I do not know if pants were pulled down or not.

xstudent,
Jay and Jane Montgomery live in Kalona and have lived there for years. If you feel that they have wronged you or mistreated you, the Bible says to take up the issue with them directly. Or you should contact the authorities. Discussing this on a chat board and accusing them by name is called slander, does not help anyone, and is illegal. If Jane mistreated you, you should either talk to her, file charges, or let it go.

[Eye in the Sky]

Slander? Are you a jokester? We can speak out.

You see, folks like these don't want people to find out about them. They want you to keep it quiet. Many of their actions might be fully legal. They might also have "friends" in the local police and political community.

If there is something wrong, it's good to speak out and make it known.

We like to expose people like this that may be taking advantage of people spiritual beliefs for their own spiritual gain.

[Anonymous]

There is a difference between "speaking out" and false accusations. Speaking out against organizations is one thing, but ruining someone's life without due cause and justice goes against biblical and American values. To run around accusing people of a serious crime is irresponsible.

If there is a problem, then American citizens are guaranteed their rights and a fair trial. But there are established ways of dealing with serious crimes in the Bible and in the Consitution.

My understanding is that this forum is for warning people of organizations, not accusing individuals of serious crimes. If you have a concern about criminal activity, contact the local authorities or the FBI.

[Anonymous]

Hip,
This is not a branch of Scientology. It is a fringe charismatic branch loosely based on scripture, New Age ideas, and pretty much whatever Gary Hargrave and the current leaders make up as they go. Gary has even gone so far as to teach that his sermons are directly equivalent with the Bible and John's word. So much for stoning false prophets in the old testament. Much of John's word either did not come true or is so vague that almost anything could have made it so. Not so with God's Word, the Bible. It is proven over and over. God teaches integrity and truth. John and Gary teach people to lie, keep secrets, and live immoral lives. They teach that there is no such that as "good or bad." They ignore the idea of "sin" and a need for a Saviour. What is most important is that Christ would return and resurrect those who have died "in Christ" so that they may live here on earth. They demand that God would rip the veil and grant resurection life here on earth. Gary has "released" the spirits of various congregants who were dying to go to the other side and intercede for this resurrection life. Going to their services reminds me of wandering in the desert with Moses as it's pretty dry, there is much back-biting, politics, and complaining, and there is no "meat" in the teaching.

[Neo]

Hello everyone, Glad to see that some of you aren't brained washed parrots of the Living word Fellowship. There are other message lines here at factnet that deal more with the errors of this Discipleship Cult. Look under Church of the living word and Living word fellowship in the cult list section.
I will attempt to post links to those.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/600.html?1072635136
and
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/599.html?1072700798

Joseph Grant, you amuse me. Others her e might not see it, but everything you have posted is brain washed mumbo jumo that I have heard parroted from people inside this church all my life. I was born and raised inside the fellowship. The people in position always claim that someone is "bitter" if they ever realise that the church is abusive and speak out about it. And I happen to know first hand that children have been sexualy abused in comunal living homes in Los Angeles. Whether or not it happened in Shiloh I cannot say. I always thought that the Montgomery's were OK people. But just becasue they were nice to me, doesn't mean they didn't abuse others. Never forget, only God really knows what darkness lurks inside the hearts of men.
I'm sure that ol' Joseph has never bothered to examine or research any of the shady things that have gone on in the fellowship. Like the Gold Mine scam that John Stevens participated in, though most likely ignorantly, a backhanded exposition of his lack of perception. A few people were sent to prison over that. In short they got everyone to raise money for a gold mine that didn't exist, all the while Stevens prophecied about how "of the lord it was, and how it would fund the kingdom."
OR what about the fact the John had an affair with his secretary, Marilyn, and while he was doing that he had people prophecy for the death of his then wife Martha.
There are many shady things that have gone on under the surface of this seemingly harmless church, but that doesn't mean that the transgressions do not exist. Perhaps you do not see them Joseph, becasue you do not choose to. Denile is a powerful sedative.

P.S. for those who say it is not a cult. I was at barnes and Noble a few weeks ago, and i opened up a book called something like the big list of cults or something, and there was the living word fellowship, identified in black and white, as a cult. If you can't see why people call it a cult, then its most likely becasue you aren't looking. I should know, I spent my whole life in the blinding darkness of denile, telling myself that I was serving the lord, when I was only really ever serving man's ever growing lust for power and greed for riches. If you don't know about that Joseph, then try opening your eyes to the lifestyle that Gary and Marilyn and the few remaining apostles (there aren't many left anymore, Marylin doesn't like competition) live on a day to day basis. There's more about thier extravagant lifestyle in one of the other posts.
Don't bother reading it Joseph, I'm sure you have plenty of justifications lined up inside your mind about why the way they live is OK. They are "The lamp of Israel" and they do speak the word of God.
Silly me, I thought Jesus already did that Job.

[Neo]

Oh I know Joseph, I know. I'm just bitter, right?

[Anonymous]

Neo, From your post above, I would say your are QUITE bitter.

[Neo]

Nice Post Mr. Anonymous. Unfortunately I've heard it before. The last time I was called bitter was by the leadership of the cult (Which gives me a good idea where you go to church) in an attempt to discredit my remarks and protect the religion that they had created. This type of ploy is called an "Ad Hominem fallacy." It is an attempt to attack the author of an arguemnt instead of the argument itself.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Whether or not I am bitter is irrelevant. The question was rhetorical. I was being ironical. But feel free to post again and make an intelligent argumentation against the claims I have made.

If you can.

[Yaakov]

Neo

You said Joe prophesied Martha’s death and that Marilyn doesn’t like competition. So, what ever happened to Martha?

[Neo]

Correction. I said John got people together to prophecy for Martha's death, but maybe Joe was just a typo. Anyway, what happened to Martha? Good question.

This is an excerpt from the Cult Awareness & Information Centre on the subject of Martha.

http://www.caic.org.au

"Martha Stevens, who was married to Apostle Stevens for 40 years, filed for divorce in 1979. During the proceedings, she revealed that Stevens' holdings could amount to $40 million. A California newspaper then launched an investigation of the Church of the Living Word, and learned that it had conducted a Nevada silver mine fraud that allegedly cheated members of the cult out of at least $500, 000. Stevens also possessed an extensive art collection and $29, 000 in silver bars, and hired an attorney for the divorce suit, paying him $10,000 plus $125 per hour. Martha claims, "My husband has total control of the church and its funds, and total access to all church finances. He is, in essence, the church himself."

This is another excerpt that discusses that mine scam and the praying for Martha's death. It is from TheoNet.net Christian Theology Online

you can read the whole article at http://www.theonet.dk/update/update-v7-i1-83/The_Church_of_the_Living_Word.html It discuss many of the errors of the cult.

"First, in order to finance the kingdom's advance, The Walk invested in several financial enterprises--painting equipment, mobile homes, and a gold-silver mine. Whereas there was a ready market for the painting equipment firm, the mobile home business collapsed during the recession in the early ‘70s and the precious metals mine failed. Writer Woodrow Nichols has documented that The Walk congregations invested $1 million in the Western Ore Reduction Company (formed by Stevens, his daughter, and son-in-law, Richard Helphand). But those congregations received no return profit or material on their investment. Two holding companies, created by The Walk to recover those lost funds, failed, and as correspondence between responsible parties reveals, illegal financial activities were committed. Thus far the only person convicted of grand theft is the man who arranged the mining procedures in behalf of Stevens arid his family.

Second, Martha Stevens {the apostle's ex-wife) filed for and was granted a divorce. The grounds for the divorce included her concern that some members of Stevens's movement were praying for her death and that the apostle openly claimed to be spiritually married to another woman in the congregation."

What happened to Martha is simple. Marilyn started having an affair with her husband and the atmosphere of the cult toward Martha started to get hostile. So she left. Some argue that it was Marilyn that started the "death" prayers. But whatever the case, Martha was forced out and Marilyn took her place. Eventually John died, and Marilyn became what they call "The lamp of Israel" (though she is not even Jewish and hails from Pueblo Colorado, another example of the arrogance of western christian theology) to everyone in the cult because they believe that she is the focal point of God in the earth, Just like david was in the old testament. They actually call her by that title. No Joke. OF course, the slippery slope, is how Marilyn attained godliness through such a sordid path. If you look at the situation through an unbiased perspective, you may find the Marilyn has more in common with a different character from the bible. A powerful female character. Can you guess? I'll give you a hint, her name starts with a J, and ends with an ezebel.

[Yaakov]

Oops, those were typos. It should have been “John got people together to prophecy for Martha's death”

Your website says “The Walk's spiritual intercession includes vigorous shouting prayers, using metaphors associated with military battles, slaughter, and victory. Stevens once encouraged that aggressive spirituality by saying, »So, can you see there's a war going on? Now, you say, ‘I don't go for the violence.’ You better go for it, because this is a time of violence« (2 January 1977). Stevens's so-called apostolic ministry is verified for Walk members through the successful spiritual warfare which Stevens periodically describes…"

If these cult member were pre-disposed to violence, I would say that Martha was very lucky to get away unscathed.

[Anonymous]

Neo is again accurate with the facts. Yes, many large books of cults list the Church of the Living Word. None of them, however, are as accurate as the Woodrow Nichols report I mentioned on another thread.

John Stevens was alleged to have an affair with another woman before Marilyn in the 1960s, and John Stevens and his most loyal men excommunicated the elders that came to him democratically demanding an explanation.

The silver-gold mine in Nevada actually never existed, although purported by John Stevens to have precious metals that would literally fund the Kingdom of God throughout the earth. But Walk congregants in the limited partnership of the aforementioned company lost one million dollars, and certain parties capitalized on the Walk members lack of business experience to take the money. John Stevens was on the Board of Directors of this company.

Yaakov, you are correct in that Martha was wise to get out. The Walk was very militant in the 1970s, and everything was overspiritualized. If you went against the grain, you were basically labelled a Nephilim and were attacked by the pychic power of people prophesying against you (which is basically the works-believism of Scientology, i.e., what you speak comes into being).

I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that Martha Stevens is still alive. Can anyone confirm this??

[Anonymous]

to the poster who said that you can get in trouble for posting something that happened to you that was true is wrong. slander is saying untrue things, as long as something is true, you can post it. also, every cult in the country has it share of "very nice people" because that very sincere, good people are most likely to fall victims of cults.

[Anonymous]

How did Shiloh start?

John Robert Stevens had a vision for Shiloh in the 60's, and it was first started in the early 70's.

The land that Shiloh sits on was donated by a man named Harvey Bender who lived near Kalona, IA. The rest of his family left The Walk after he died, but the land remains part of the fellowship.

During that time, various people have come and gone, but the vision that Shiloh would be a community for The Living Word Fellowship has been carried on by John's widow, Marilyn, and her husband, Gary. It sits near the small town of Richmond, Iowa, which is the place to own or build a house if you are part of Shiloh, and many of its residents go to Shiloh.

In the 1980's a group of the Church of the Living Word Fellowship's churches (nonprofit organizations) bought additional farmland in the area near Shiloh and formed a (for-profit) company called Marilyn Farms Company, named after Marilyn Hargrave. At first their primary focus was to raise exotic animals such as mouflan, bison, eland antelope, and more. In the 1990's Gary Hargrave's health suffered, and he and Marilyn changed their lifestyle and diet to incorporate organic health foods, and much of their congregation and the Marilyn Farms Company followed.

Marilyn Farms Company was started by and is owned and operated by the Church of the Living Word Fellowship (also known as The Walk).

[Anonymous]

Here is a link to the Marilyn Farms Website:

http://www.marilynfarms.com/index.cfm

I think the Marilyn Farms Company is one of the longest lasting for-profit buisinesses in the Walk.

There was also Impact, Inc., a paint-roller company in California in the 70s that many people worked in.

[Anonymous]

did anyone on this message board attend or know anyone who attended the 'the walk' church in Laguna Beach, California in the early 70's?

[Anonymous]

There was Impact, Hardwood Creations, Gregg Manufacturing, Fineline, and more. I've heard a few horror stories from the Impact days. It was not the model for running a business or treating employees I'm told.

[Anonymous]

http://www.thelivingword.org/newsletter/shiloh-summer2001/yaspright.htm
Phil Forbes led us in adventurous Bible Studies, and on our last night we had a heartbreaking bless-in.
At second session, we had fun workshops and saw the awesome amphitheater show. The services were outstanding. Rob Rich, Uriah Bagley, and Daniel and Debbie Oliveira were our overseers. They helped us to confirm who our Elijahs are.

[Trinity]

Yes, I've heard the Impact days were interesting. In personal ministry John would tell people to work for different kingdom buisinesses.

[Anonymous]

Whoa, this sure started weird (beginning of this message board). I've been in this movement since 1971 and was in the thick when Martha Stevens left. Never did we pray against Martha, but always prayed for John and Martha. It was totally Martha's decision to leave. I used to sit next to her in the old Anaheim services and always found her company pleasent. I love how things get distorted and bent from the truth. Knowing JRS as well as I did I recognized a man who walked in total integrity.

[Trinity]

I have been in YASP before (Young Adult School of Prophets/Young Adult Summer Program, which takes place every Summer at Shiloh, coinciding with anuual The School of Prophets conference, where all the APCO, Gary and Marilyn (G&M), and pretty much a large percentage of the members of the Living Word Fellowship congregate to have worship services, bible studies, entertainment, and leisure time.

The bible studies were fun, as were the ampitheatre show and the fourth of July fireworks show. Our dorm leaders were fun. We took field trips to amusement parks like Six Flags Chicago, and Worlds of Fun. We also did volunteer work around Shiloh. We would take fun evenings out in Iowa City. The comaderie of spending time with like-minded peers and close friendships I made are some of my best memories. YASP during the years I was involved is still one of my favorite and fondest memories.

I am praying for God to bless the Living Word Fellowship. They are Christians who love God, and I believe sincerely want to grow in God. I hope some of the leadership and current members will read these threads and see areas where change needs to take place.

[Trinity]

What was Martha Stevens like? I know she was with John Stevens from the very early days of his ministry (they got married in their early 20s after meeting at a bible college in Los Angeles). What year did she leave the fellowship? Is she still alive? What about John Stevens children? Did they ever attended services, functions?

[Trinity]

Actually it is well documented fact that Walk members prayed for the death of Martha Stevens because John Stevens felt that she had become a channel for assulting him spiritually. The word nephilim was even used in referencing the type of channel Martha was. The prayer used to pray against Martha was the type of violent intercession so characteristic of the Walk in the late 70s and early 80s.

Family members involved in the Walk at this time as well as many current and ex-members in the 2nd generation have confirmed this information to many people in the 3rd and 4th generations. This fact is well documented in the SPC research paper I've referenced several times, and well known by most 3rd generation people I've talked to in the TWF.

The SPC (Spiritual Counterfeits Project) headquarters has several taped recordings of John Stevens sermons, personal ministry, and phone conversations between Woodrow Nichols (the author of the SPC research paper) and former Walk members). These members had no reason to make stuff up or distort the truth, they just wanted the truth to be known. Too often people were subtly trained not to discuss with non-members the obviously controversial and bizzare happenings that took place during that time.

There are alot of things in the LWF that are kept on the down low (not made available to the public), for instance current taped sermons by the leadership have a system of stars, and a certain number of stars means that the tape is intended only for members. I don't think it is strictly off-limits to non-members, but its obvious that practices like this make it seem to outside groups in Christianity as if the LWF has something to hide.

Part of ending the isolation of the LWF should involve more transparency and disclosure of its happenings/beliefs, etc. The LWF has come a long way for the better since the days of JRS, but it still has a way to go in ending the violations and potentially toxic sheparding discussed extensively on these threads.

[Trinity]

It is also well-documented that there were dubious events that would lead any objective person to question the integrity of JRS. He was alleged to have two extramarital affairs. In dealing with the first affair in the 60s, JRS and his most loyal elders excommunicated forever a group of well-intentioned elders that wanted to have an investigation, and they had in their possession cards written from the woman to John with suggestive words and phrases. John and this woman had been spending lots of time together. This event divided his congregation (one of three congregations he won over but eventually lost in the "early days").

In dealing with the second affair, Martha filed for divorce from John (he hired a very influential, powerful, well-paid attorney to handle the divorce proceedings, no doubt to protect his assets).

Then there was the bilking of $1 million of money from the naive congregation in donations to start gold mining company for a gold mine that did not exist. To be fair, JRS only sat on the board of directors of this corporation and did not know what was going on at first. John and others tried to recover the funds. The CEO of the company left with almost all the money after illegal financial transactions took place.

These are just a few of the facts that cast some doubt on the statement that JRS walked in "total integrity". I'm not trying to be harsh, but JRS was a human with hang-ups and flaws. He did have an undeniably incredible ministry, but he was not perfect, and he was not Christ.

[Trinity]

One more link to another thread on this movement:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/671.html?1076963154

[JGS]

A kingdom business was a concept born of Bob McClain who wanted to support JRS financially at a time when John didn't have a lot of support. It is simply a state of heart and the individual's choice. I started a stair company in 1981 with the idea of it being a Kingdom Business, but it was JRS who told me not to be Kingdom Business, rather it was to be a business in the world founded on integrity. My goal was to bless the employees with the design that they were the ones to give, to tithe, not to sacrifice for the company. And God blessed us.

[Trinity]

In a similar vein to the post by JGS, I think the current Marilyn Farms Company is doing some great things in the community and in the field of health supplements and natural remedies. I volunteered there during the Shiloh summer camps. I have experienced and heard only positive things about this company. There is alot of integrity in the owners, overseers, and workers.

[Larry Bobo]

JGS,
I love the foundation on which you built your business - a willingness to give to the Lord freely because you love Him, integrity, and your efforts to create an atmosphere where your employees could determine what was in their heart to give also. I think people lose much of God's blessing where it is not a freewill offering.

I worked in a kingdom electrical contracting business for about ten years that shared your values. The relationships and great times during that period are some of my most cherished memories. Some issues surfaced that caused the business to fail and eventually the owner, who had been a local pastor in TLWF, commited suicide.

Other businesses, like Impact, functioned differently. "God" operated with much tighter control. I've listened to hours of stories from former employees. While "he" was struggling to figure out that you can't sell a paint brush for $4 that costs $5 to produce and make a profit, even if you bind the satanic assault and prophesy judgement on the competition, the employees were working for less than minimum wage. It's sad to me that while "god" was micro-managing the business, such foolish things were being done. It all gets swept under the carpet and there's no accountability for the damaged lives.

The master/slave relationship between humans may be necessary in Eastern religions, but it stops the flow of blessing and freedom in the kingdom. Being a servant-leader and looking out for the good of your employees is much healthier and produces much better fruit in businesses and churches.

Matt. 20:25-28 says,"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servants, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

[Anonymous]

JGS, I think I worked with you a long time ago in the walk. Are you John Sayer by chance?

[JGS]

Anonymous,

Nope, not John Sayer. But that is a good guess. John is awesome. I started/founded a company out of Anaheim called Hardwood Creations.

Joseph Swallow

[Morpheus]

Perhaps I too was once "awesome", but now I am a servant of the Most High, who alone is worthy of all praise, glory, and honor.

Was Jesus "awesome"?

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
Matt 6:17-18

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
Luke 18:18-19

What does the bible say about flattery?
I will show partiality to no one,
nor will I flatter any man;
for if I were skilled in <FONT COLOR="ff0000">flattery</FONT>,
my Maker would soon take me away.
Job 31:21-22

"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With <FONT COLOR="ff0000">flattery</FONT> he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
Daniel 11:31-32

I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and <FONT COLOR="ff0000">flattery</FONT> they deceive the minds of naive people.
Romans 16:17-18

1 Thessalonians 2:1-9
Paul's Ministry in Thesalonica
You know, brothers, that our visit to you was not a failure. We had previously suffered and been insulted in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in spite of strong opposition. For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used <FONT COLOR="ff0000">flattery</FONT>, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed--God is our witness. We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else.
As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone <U>while we preached the gospel of God to you</U>.

[Verdict]

I call major bull**** on the usage of those scriptures.

Calling someone "awesome" when everyone else is being critical is no sin.

[Captain Sombrero]

Awesome use of vulgar language and an argument based solely on thoughtless emotion Verdict. Where did you ever learn a skill like that? That was swell.

First of all, I think you need to relax. In fact, I call extremely major buffalo****, the kind with nuts AND corn, on your calling of major bull****.

It is typical in the cult to try and use the argument that someone is being "legalistic," and that is what you are doing, when they quote scriptures that do not agree with your little agenda. Do you result to vulgar language because your own knowledge of the scripture is so weak and worthless, or is it because you have no self control? What no scriptures of your own to quote? No insight to offer about the meaning of those scriptures?

By the way, I can only assume that you are protecting John Robert Stevens by your little outburst. But JGS wasn't referring to John Robert Stevens at all. He was referring to A different John. I'm not sure where anyone has said anything about John Sayer on this site. Next time do us all a favor. Try taking a deep breath, then rereading and then thinking before you react. I know it's hard, and they don't teach you that in the Cult. But just try it.

And finally to answer the muddled point you tried to make. Calling someone "Awesome" is a sin, even when everyone else is being big critical meany heads, if it is used to set them as greater than normal people or to flatter, or to take the place of Jesus. Was JGS doing that, I dunno. Apparently Morpheus thought so.

The real question is, is it done in the fellowship on a regualr basis, using lifted speech and flattery toward the leadership? You know it. Every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

[Anonymous]

JGS,

I always thought he was a real prick.

[JGS]

Anonymous,

Obviously you didn't know him.

[Verdict]

Amen, JGS.
And Cpt. Sombrero, I was not referring to JRS.

[Larry Bobo]

I thought they were great verses and applicable to all of us. I also think my wife is awesome - but I don't think she's God. JGS could have been using it as a figure of speech. John Sayer has stayed at my house during shepherds conferences and we've had great times together. We no longer share the same perspective on the Word, but he's a nice guy and deeply commited to what he believes.

[Anonymous]

Are you a part of the Palmer Lake church Verdict? or do you know John from before that?

[Chad]

For the most part, every one in the fellowship is "awesome," if by awesome you mean good hearted people with a comitment to living good lives. There have been some problems here and there and a few socio paths and socially troubled people in places of power over the years, as has been documented. But I don't think most of what is written here is meant to be critical of the large body of congregants in the fellowship. Most of the people I have ever known there were great people. The problem is not the people, it is the doctorine. It is the doctorine and the following of that doctorine that makes the Living Word Fellowship a cult. I have yet to see a post from anyone who supports the Living word fellowship even try to defend or deal with this fact.
People sin, people will always sin. I think the point that people here are trying to make is that it is this doctirnal error that leads to much of the abuse and mistreatment. It is not so much that this person or that person is a "bad" person. Just that they are lead to take up unhealthy practices and ideas in thier pursuit of a "walk with god." These unhealthy ideas and practices will always lead to mistreatment and abuse. For this reason the Living Word Fellowship should be avoided. However, if they were to correct thier doctorinal error and elminate thier cult practices, the Living word fellowship would be a shinning example of christianity in the Earth.

Of course if that were to happen the Church would have to be about the glorification of Christ and not Marilyn, but that's a different post...

[Verdict]

"I have yet to see a post from anyone who supports the Living word fellowship even try to defend or deal with this fact."

I just don't feel the need to. You've made up your mind, and I'm not going to change that.

You don't see Oprah writing letters to the tabloid newspapers every time something is accused of her. Similarly, I don't feel like entertaining you.

[Larry Bobo]

I'm not sure what you mean by the Palmer Lake verdict. I've known John since the 1970's. We were never in the same church together. He is now the pastor of the Palmer Lake facility, but I had left before he started oversight there. He called me up a while back and I went to lunch with him and his wife. He feels I would think differently about the Walk under his shepherding. I do not.

Like Chad above, I feel there are doctrinal issues that will always produce problems no matter how nice the person is. I survived a number of shepherds who crashed and burned, taking a number of people with them - Palmer Lake is not my first experience. Some of these were after we were specifically told by G&amp;M that we finally have a shepherding level we can trust.

While at Palmer Lake, I made a trip to San Diego on my own dime, to talk with John Miller regarding some shepherding problems. Several weeks later G&amp;M made a trip to Palmer Lake and set those shepherds out of the body. Gary had said at a shepherd's conference that if you had a problem with your shepherd, I have a problem with you. I honestly thought I had about a 50/50 chance of being set out of the body for speaking out. When I told John Miller my fears, he just laughed, but it was a real concern for me. G&amp;M said they had been watching the situation in the spirit for about five years. A lot of suffering occured during that five years.

[Morpheus]

I was reflecting on the fact that when I was part of The Walk, the phrase "You're awesome" or "She's awesome" or "They're awesome" was used quite a bit. Almost to the point where it lost any real meaning. But I always felt good when people were saying it to the point that when they weren't there was a need for it. Like an addiction.

My life is changing and I am changing since I really got to know Christ... Since I've stopped focusing on people as my source of affirmation, turning it the Jesus and his love for me which is found in the Bible, I've found that I don't need to be puffed up all the time. I don't need to be told twenty times a day that I'm awesome. Because I'm not. I'm a sinner, just like everyone else in this world. I need Jesus to pay the price for my sins because nothing that I can ever do is enough to earn my way into heaven.

Isaiah 64:6 likens all of our righteous deeds to filthy rags, and verse 8 says that we are all the work of God's hands. So which is greater? The creator or the creation?

In the Living Worship manual, published by the Living Word, there is a song called "Finding You Each Day" which is ostensibly about God or Jesus, because the Y in "You" is capitalized, although it never specifically references God or Jesus or Christ anywhere in the song.

The chorus of this song reads, "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit, I've found what I must pursue. Henceforth let no man trouble me, I have only one thing to do." It sounds ok. Kind of a mixture of verses. But somewhat ok.

Until you read the fourth verse which is "I've looked all around and nowhere could I find Your perfection made alive, Except in the one who has come in Thy name. Blessed be <FONT COLOR="ff0000">she</FONT> who has come." Who is the "she"? Could it be Marilyn Hargrave, The Lamp of Israel?

Jesus was the perfect example of humility here on earth, even though He was God. The Walk tends to deify and flatter mere humans as though they were God.

[Verdict]

Morpheus,

2000 years ago, had you been this closed off to the Lord's dealings on Earth you would not have recognized Jesus as having been sent from God.

[Larry Bobo]

As I mentioned on a previous post, Matt. 24:4-5, 23-25 says, "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ," and will deceive many....At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophetes will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time."

Notice it says if ANYONE says - it doesn't say some really will be the Christ and you'll have to pick out the correct one by revelation. Jesus warned us ahead of time therefore we can only blame ourselves if we become a victim of deception.

http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/strange6.htm is one of many websites dealing with new age gnosticism and the idea that we are the christ. Anything here look familar?

[Chad]

Ladies and gentelman we finally have it. A perfect example of everything we have been saying.

"2000 years ago, had you been this closed off to the Lord's dealings on Earth you would not have recognized Jesus as having been sent from God. "

And there we have it. Thank you very much Verdict for displaying the extreme arrogance of the living word fellowship, and the blind worship you have for Marilyn Hargrave as God in the earth.
Perfect.
Nothing I have previously said expressed or described the explossive nature and absolute brainwashed commitment that members have to the system compared to what you displayed in these three short posts. Arrogant, Harsh, and Vulgar. Perfect.

It is obvious that Morpheus really hit a nerve by displaying the inherent Marilyn worship you have in fellowship songs and how you have replaced Christ with Marilyn. By the way, great one morhpeus.

First of all, How on Earth can you say that you know who would have known or would not have known Jesus. This is typical mind blowing arrogance and an obvious control technique of the fellowship. "If you don't submit completely to what we teach you don't know Christ and never would have known Christ." Obviously you yourself have been brainwahed to believe that unless you accept everything the fellowship teaches and who Marilyn "really" is you can not know Jesus. You have exhibited that brainwashing by trying to dump the same enshackling rhetoric on someone else. Thank you for exposing that.

"I just don't feel the need to." Don't flatter yourself. The only thing you have at your disposal is blind emotion. You canot defend the fellowship because there is NO scriptural defense of the fellowship. The only thing you can use to defend what Gary has said is something Gary has said. I doubt you can even see the problem with that though.

As a side note, Verdict. You are obviously too much of a coward to be forthcomming with who you are. Funny that the supposedly "mislead" people are the ones with nothing to hide isn't it?

Find me a member of any healthy church who goes around saying who would have or would not have known Jesus. Perfect. Thanks again.

[Appalled]

Hey Verdict if you never thought that the LWF was a cult, why did you go to a cult web site and look up the living word fellowship?

Morpheus, I personally thought your post was "Awesome."

Also Verdict, if you aren't here at the cult website to discuss why the fellowship is or is not a cult, why are you here? Have you ever considered the fact that there are many people reading these posts whose mind you could change. I think I have to agree with Chad, if you are not posting any explanation or clarification, its probably because you can't.

[The_Aardvark]

Aw, nuts! (http://randomimage.us/files/neworleans81.jpg)

[The_Aardvark]

Kabuki Party!!! (http://www.kabuki.com/)

[Seraph]

There are four active discussions about this group.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/599.html
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/600.html
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/671.html

What a cult is
http://www.carm.org/cults/cultic.htm
http://billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=575

Billy Graham's thoughts on cults
http://billygraham.org/search.asp?search=cults

More information from About.com
http://atheism.about.com/cs/cultsnrms/index.htm?terms=cults
http://christianteens.about.com/cs/cults/index.htm?terms=cults
http://psychology.about.com/msub_socult.htm


What is a cult?
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_whatisdescult.htm

What is a Cult?
A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.) designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community. (West &amp; Langone, 1986)

Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top

Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed.

Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising

Isolation from society -- not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group
Use of mind control techniques (we use Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's criteria from chapter 22 of his book Thought Reform &amp; the Psychology of Totalism to compare whether the eight psychological and social methods he lists are present in the group at question)

Mileu Control: Control of the environment and communication within the environment

Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)

Loading the Language: Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense

Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.

[Trinity]

I am an example of someone who initially read these posts and wanted to defend the the LWF.

I found these threads about a year ago (when hardly anyone had posted), when I had been out of the LWF for about 5 years, and had left on good terms. I wanted to defend the church, but the more I read the posts, I was struck by the fact that people like Chad were seeing things that I did not see for so long. I had been in complete denial concerning the negative things that happened in the LWF. I refused to actually look at the fruit, for I knew that it might mean I was wrong, my parents were wrong, I could have been doing other things, and the Living Word was not perfect. In fact, it may not have all been a cutting edge Word from the Lord.

Although I had left the LWF on good terms, I did have a bad sheparding experience that I was upset about, and I felt like others like me had been subtly spiritually abused and mistreated, (intentionally or unintentionally). I and others had candidly told many people in the LWF (including Gary and Marilyn) that we thought there were problems with sheparding, but I was so emotionally confused I could not pinpoint the exact problems. Plus, while I was in the fellowship, I was certainly afraid of what I was doing, speaking out. No one does. If they do, they are treated as rebellious spirits, and their arguing is spiritualized away, stopped by subtle control tactics, or ignored.

The source of the problem was not the people, but the doctrine, which creates an arena for the spiritual abuse to occur.

These threads have given me a lens with which to view the LWF.

Current members: if you want out (and I did), the first step for you is realizing, like I did, that the Living Word Fellowship, by scientific, sociological definition, is a bible-based cult. It has almost all the characteristics that the above poster outlined. You won't recover your wounds or have an understanding of what really happened to you until the fact that truly is a cult sinks in.

Once you take that first step, your understanding and perception will improve dramatically. You are taking the fastest route to healing your wounds. You now have a lens to view it through. There is a process of literally unlearning much wrong thinking that I have had to go through, but it has been worth it. Trust me, I feel better now today than I ever felt in the Fellowship, and more in control of my life than I ever have. I feel more assertive and self-assured. I think for myself. I am not afraid to be skeptical or critical. I value my free will, and I choose to serve the Lord Jesus Christ in a Baptist church where I have a fellowship with some great Christians.

In the LWF, my heart is going out to young teenagers and people in their early twenties whose parents, like mine were always in the Walk, and the kids were born into it. I want these kids to be ABSOLUTELY FREE to pursue their dreams and be independent thinkers (an essential quality for success in todays competitive society), and it seems like the current sheparding situation limits their choices.

Or, they may be told by the leadership to move all over the place, like from San Diego to Hawaii to Shiloh to Brazil. All of these places are very different culturally and have different sheparding and congregational issues. There can be serious adjustment issues. Or, parents will miss these young adults dearly as they move away. Once they get to a new facility, they are "plugged in" with a new shepard. Sometimes its a good sheparding relationship. Sometimes its a bad one. Its a dicey situation. There is no guarantee that spiritual abuse won't take place.

There is a whole world of healthy Christian movements out there where members of churches do not and have never had to deal with spiritual abuse. The difference is like night and day.

Next step: realize that by leaving the LWF, you are not limiting your choices, you are opening up a whole world of choices. There is a whole world outside of the Fellowship to be experienced. I had the silly idea that God wanted to me to specifically marry within the LWF, and that I had to have a career near and live in the vicinity of a kingdom facility. Think about how much I was limiting my choices with that thinking. I was dictating the most imporant decisions of my life not by the personal leading of the Lord to me, but my allegiance and loyalty to other people. I am not the only one whos decision making was affected to that degree.

Where you live, who you marry, what you do in your spare time, how you handle your finances, what you do in private with your significant other/spouse, where and when you take vacations and family visits, the education you receive, the career you choose, how much time you spend with your immediate family, and how you live your life are COMPLETELY UP TO YOU, and are decisions that are subject solely to your free will, which no man, not even God, may violate.

God helps people who help themselves.

JRS once said that the amount of degrees a person had behind their name (for instance, Dr. Robert Johnson, PhD) indicated how much satanic knowledge they had accumulated! He was saying this specifically about denominational seminary and ministers who had attended these seminaries.

JRS said this in the 1970s. I realize that that was 30 years ago, but many in the LWF still think that way. Its easy to take that attitude and discourage all higher education. That would be very limiting. What I have seen is that there is more of an emphasis of spending lots of time at the facilities than there is on careers/education. Having presitigious careers or getting a bachelors/masters/doctorate/technical degree is of course never discouraged, but emphasis is not placed on it. Emphasis is placed on just hanging around the facilities and going to lots of services. I'm saying that there is much more to life than that. Does anyone else agree? Disagree if you think I'm wrong.

[Chad]

Perfect Seraph. A great post as usual and a great measuring stick for whether or not the LWF is a cult.

Let's examine teachings and doctorines from the living word fellowship and evaluate them based on whether they could be deemed cult practices. I know that the previous post was pretty self explanatory, but let's do it anyway, just for fun.

"Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top" Every decision regarding the course of the LWF rests with Gary and Marilyn. They are the absolute and supreme authority. IF they say it is good, it is good. If they say it is bad, it is bad. Based on the perks they have and the lifestyle they live, it is obvious that they are at the top of any pyramid. Based on thier position to GOd and thier special titles, it is obvious that they are at the top of the pyramid spiritually.

"Charismatic or messianic leader(s) .....the leaders are self-appointed" Gary is considered the mouth piece or the voice of God in the Earth. His perception and understanding of God is second to none. Marilyn carries John's mantle, and is "the lamp of israel." Both are definately Messianic. Gary is definately charismatic just as John was. They were appointed by john during a ceremony on John's death bed where he said Gary should take over the leadership of the church. No one else was present. John died before he could be questioned about it. Since it is based soley on thier word, and there was no group of elders who voted or decided and no hiring process or interviewing process, it basically came down to them telling the body that they were the new leaders. I think that qualifies as self appointment.

"Deception in recruitment" In one of the other posts I wrote about the bait and switch. They show you John's mild word and once you are in replace it with a much more militant word from Gary that demands much more blatant submission and serving. They will not even let you listen to Gary's words when you first show up. They know a new person would bolt if they heard it. They justify this by saying that John's word is "milk" for babes, and Gary's word is "meat" for adults.

"Isolation from society -- the rest of the world is not saved," They believe that they are the only church out there with a "living word." Often they say from the pulpit that you can go out to any other church out there but you will not find a "living word." They believe that thier path leads to true maturity and true sonship. They call other churches and other believers "the world." "Out in the world they do this." This creates and us vs them mentality.

"Control of the environment and communication within the environment " There are definate pathways of communication. If you have a problem with the person you are supposed to serve you must write a "workflow" so you can "submit" what you feel to the edlership. You must do this in most situations. If you want to go on vacation, they prefer you to "submit" it in writing. Of course they never tell you to, they just are not pleased with you if you don't and the more you submit, the better a sheep you are. Also you never speak to Gary and MArilyn directly, except on rare occasionf for like 3 minutes about once every year or two. The other times your "shepherd" will tell you what Gary and Marilyn, and thus God, thinks about you.

Loading the Language - First of all the walk has invented a kind of third person self talk when it comes to spiritual moving or prophecy. IF you read some of the posts from members you will see this. Let's have some examples. "I Bless it, I loose it, What I am believing for is..., We take control of the spirit of division in Chad, We bind his satanic Posts, I really just prophecy that he will be confronted by his own arrogant bitterness." You get the idea. They also use certain phrases to talk about God, and have for so long that they can't talk about God without using them. Then they go to another church and don't feel comfortable there when the people at that church don't speak as they have been trained to speak and act as they have been trained to act. Go figure. It also helps promote the idea that they are not like other churches, but almost invisibly from within.
They also make buzzwards that become loaded with meaning and good or bad connotations. Here are some examples: "Withdrawl, bitterness, submission, good spirit, bad spirit, authority, rebellious, connection (I'm looking ot have a real connection with so and so), tune in, bless, loose, bind, prophecy, repent, speak, serve, family, father, son, sonship, fun, really fun, a blessing, spirit of..., obedience, adamic nature, male nature, unbelief, brokeness, leading of the spirit, a witness, voice of the lord, Christ in the earth, Christ, lord, word, word of god, a word from god, the remnant, a sign, a fleece, sons of God, conformed, conformity, transformed, blown out, division, one, a covering, battle, assualt, persecution, suffer, give yourself, God's will, God's heart, Marilyn's Heart, the lord's burden, the enemy, unequally yoked, criticism, denying Christ, arrogant, and as our friend Verdict used, "closed off" or closed or walled off or not open (basically this means not saying how high when your shepherd says jump). Funny that they have one word for open and 4 terms for the negation. Oh and let's not forget thier favorite word, bull****. Really i'm not being saracastic, they probably say bull**** more than they do "Jesus." "Jesus" reminds them that Christ was a man not a woman like Marilyn, so they hardly ever say it. Where as "Christ" they can bend more since it means annointed and they can say that it means a person who is "Christ." Like Marilyn. So "Christ" and "Marilyn" are said all the time, while "Jesus" is said rarely. I guess then if you considered the three most prevelant words used and, based soley on that, tried to contruct what the Living Word Fellowship believes in, you'd be left with the "Bull****" "Christ" "Marilyn." Which ain't far from the truth.

Doctrine Over Person. OFten I have heard it said by leadership, "your problem is your brain. You are thinking to much. Your brain is emnity against God. Your brain hates God. You adamic nature hates God. Turn it off. Turn off your brain and just walk in what God has for you." And if you feel that there is a problem with what Gary is speaking or with what they are doing in the church, and you voice your opinion. You will quickly be shown the error of your ways. IF you still persist, well it won't be long before you are posting on this message board.

"one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them" One of the most insipid, oppressive, teachings in the fellowship is the idea of a "covering." It says that if you are submissive to the directives, and give yourself to the teachings and submit, if you are a solid part fo the church, then you are covered by God. Thus if "bad" things are happening to you, your dog dies, you lose your job, you have a miscarriage, it is because you are not covered. Thus the answer is that you need to submit more, serve more, get closer to god. Then you will be covered more. Obviously bad things are going to happen to you, they happen to everyone. But the fellowship uses those bad things to control you. And if you ever leave, and something goes bad for you, aha you aren't covered! Better come back and get covered. They sell an illusion of security in an insecure world and boy is it expensive.
Besides that, didn't Jesus say that God would look after you like he looks after the birds? I don't remember him putting any qualifications on that...
The funny thing is that they of course can't stop bad things from happening to you. So when something bad happens they say it is just "battle" against you walking in what god has for you. It's just a word game. Gary even tried to spin Sept. 11 as an attack on Christ in the Earth. He said that he had known something like this was going to happen for a long time and that it was satan trying to devour what god was trying to bring forth. He spun that terrible event as though at the center of it all was the Living word fellowship, who is of course Christ in the earth, and thus at the center of that is him and Marilyn. Last tiem I checked though, there weren't any people in the towers who were a part of the fellowship. You'd think that if the "enemy" wanted to attack the Christ comming for in the many membered body of the Living word fellowship, he'd attack shiloh? Oh and along these lines they believe that those who truely suffer and serve now with Christ will rule and reign with him in the end time. They believe that they will rule over other christians.

Thanks again for that wonderful post Seraph.
I'm sure this check list was featured with a sentence that says, if your group fits one of these categories you should be concerned. IF your group fits a couple, you should seek an outside opinion. If your group fits them all, put down this book, get your stuff, get in the car, and just drive.

Whenever I see a list like this it always blows me away. I still can't believe that I was so brainwashed and dependent on the system that I never saw it. It was always so blatant and I just couldn't see it. I was once so much like you verdict. So much like you. I'm sure you could read that list 50 times and never see the similarities. I always thought it was just foolishness to question the inegrity of the walk and the godliness of Gary and Marilyn. Then I turned my brain back on. Thank you God. Somehow, you found a way to reach me. You opened my eyes.

I once was blind, but now I see. The important things isn't really so much seeing what's wrong with the fellowship. It's that once you see what's wrong with the fellowship you will be able to see what is right with other churches, and then you can finally find a healthy place to worhip God.

[Chad]

Beautiful post John, er um, I mean Trinity. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Glad to hear from you again, was wondering what your thoughts were on all of this. Sounds like you are doing well.

I can say that I was faced by al lthose limiting factors as well. I qualified for some major Colleges, but went to the smaller sattelite college of Colorado Springs because it was near a Kingdom facility. You are also right about there not being an emphasis on education. If kids in thier twenties work at pizza hut and live at home untill they are 30, the shepherds don't care as long as the kids are there for work days and services and completely given. Then they are magically doing what God wants them to do. Even if it is nothing. I've seen that over and over and over again. Most of the young people in Palmer lake just did drugs and delivered pizzas. As long as they came to church, the shepherds could care less. Then when they were confronted by the fact that thier kids were overly dependant and without direction or goals, they would just prophecy about the "abortive spirit" over the area that was leading the kids astray and trying to devour Christ in the Earth. They'd leave thier kids at home by themselves and spend all night services blaming the spirit world instead of their own poor parenting skills and lack of emphasis on education and family. Then when all the kids "blow out" because they have been abused by harsh shepherds or they don't buy into the militant "word," or that everyone they know at school who they get high with is "the enemy," they leave and find out that the "world" doesn't value the same skill-less dependency that had worked out so well for them in the cult. So they have to unlearn what they have learned for years and get a direction for thier life that they should have gotten 5 to 10 years prior.

But the elders could care less about them, because they "blew out." Out of sight, out of mind. Rarely does the "kingdom" encompass anyone who is not within line of sight of the pastor, much less someone who is not attending the services.

So the shepherds can't just not have kids at the church, especially when the shepherd of the church is "over all of the kids in the kingdom from 20 to 30." So the shepherd, I don't want to name any names so I'll just say his initials are John Sayer, he just goes to shiloh and get a whole fresh crop of young adults and decides that they should be shipped to Palmerlake. Most of the kids who attend the palmer lake church at this time were shipped in in this manner. And because John doesn't want to appear "religious" he openly drinks with the minors, who are under the drinking age. So that thier first interaction to an addictive substance comes through thier shepherd. Soon they got a job at Pizza Hut, and wham bam, the process starts all over again. IF you think about it, moving the kids around really fosters that sense of dependency. They don't know anyone in the place they moved to so out of neccesity they have to be completely dependent on the church. One thing I have realized about the fellowship, rarely doesything they do not have a purpose. They say they are not a cult, but one thing is for sure, they are pretty damn good at running one. In the end, it really is a sad sad situation.

On a different note, glad things are getting clearer for you. Sounds like life is getting healthier every day. As far as finding the truth, God says when you seek Him with your whole heart you will find Him. Who could have known he was refering to a search engine. In the end, all that matters is that we found Him and that now we know the truth.

P.S. I found my wife outside of the fellowship. Trust me on this, it makes all the difference.

[henry]

does the church in palmer lake or john sayer own the pizza hut franchises? the pizza hut name keeps appearing.

[Verdict]

no, they do not.

pizza hut is just a popular job spot in that area for young people - they're always hiring.

[henry]

an earlier post points out that the prophecies of john robert stevens either did not come true or were so vague as to be unverifiable. i was there the night in 1973 when brother stevens gathered the flock to make an announcement of supreme importance. from the pulpit at south gate, he stated with conviction and lots o' drama that the end time was definitely coming... in 1979. no doubts. get ready. walk with god. it's revelations city... in 1979. oh yes... and he requested we each buy a copy of his wife's new record album. (not sure which wife it was). but remember, judgement day is coming... in 1979.

i was there. i heard it.

meanwhile, 25 years later...

[Anonymous]

What constitutes a lie? Less than 1%
If you truly read what JRS wrote, listen to what he said, it is the truth. There have been those who thought they knew what he said, as is evident in these posts, but did not. There were and are problems, so what. Name one group that does not have them?

Can you find a place to have a relationship with Jesus or G-d? That is the heart of what JRS taught. He wanted and is getting, a thousand prophets to out minister him, who else ever wanted that?

People all over the world are finding out what JRS said and are falling in love with it. There is a purity in people looking for the Lord now more than ever.

The words are true, some have tried incorrectly to do them, many took advantage of others, there are a host of misunderstandings.

Does this make being bitter a good thing?
G-d took all that Job had, devastated him why? So that he could handle being more perfect.

The prodigle son, one of the lessons missed is the fact that the son who stayed did not have the capacity to understand why his father loved his brother so much. There must be devastation in order to be able to receive from G-d. But if it turns to bitterness, then there must be more devastation.

Run to the Lord, get as close as you can, He is actually drawing you to Him, don't run in the other direction, it hurts more. I know, I've been there.

The teachings are true, don't twist the words because then the truth is hidden and it becomes a lie. "If you find the truth, buy it and sell it not".

It doesn't bother me what is said here, people are choosing whether they will serve the Lord or not, let them. It is as black is to white and the fulfillment of what Malachi said is beginning to happen. (Malachi 3:16 - 18)

[Anonymous]

henry, have you ever seen an automobile accident?
You know what happened, why is it when you get more than one witness you get as many stories?
That is what happened when you heard John talk about 1979, there is a lot more to it than what you thought you heard.

[Anonymous]

"It doesn't bother me what is said here, people are choosing whether they will serve the Lord or not, let them."

Please back up this statement. Please tell me that I'm just getting the wrong idea. The way you phrased it and the way I interpreted it is grossly ignorant and just plain absurd. Who is making that choice here? The only choice I have seen made is people choosing not to serve Gary and Marilyn, or choosing not to serve LWF "shepherds". I see no scriptural problem with finally choosing to serve Jesus Christ instead of someone claiming to be Christ in the flesh.

Malachi 3:16-18: Then those who feared the LORD spoke with one another; the LORD heeded and heard them, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who feared the LORD and thought on his name. "They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, my special possession on the day when I act, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. Then once more you shall distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him."

"Run to the Lord, get as close as you can, He is actually drawing you to Him, don't run in the other direction, it hurts more. I know, I've been there."

So have we.

[Chad]

Amen.

[Chad]

And by the way, to the first anonymous poster, no one has ever said that you won't find comfort by plugging yourself back into the fellowship and re-indoctrinating yourself in the teaching of John and Gary and Marilyn.

What we said is that you won't find GOD or JESUS CHRIST that way.

And this thing you have said about "There must be devastation in order to be able to receive from G-d." I respect your right to voice your opinion, and I don't mean to be offensive, but I must completely and whole-heartedly disagree with you. In my opinion that is purely unscriptural. Show me this in the teachings of Jesus. I see him talking about how good and loving the father is and how if you ask for a fish he will not give you a stone or a snake.

And as for the story of Job. You are absolutely incorrect in saying that "G-d took all that Job had, devastated him why? So that he could handle being more perfect." God took nothing from Job. God did nothing to Job. God had no great plan for Job. God was not trying to make him perfect or a son or christ in the earth or make it so if he suffered he would reign or any other such nonesense. Read the story. Don't try to weave in any of your "interpretations."
The story is simple. Satan brought up the subject of Job to God. Satan wanted to prove that Job would turn away. Satan afflicted Job. God allowed him to, simply to prove to satan that Job was not a shallow man. He wanted to prove that no matter what you did to Job he would not give up his faith or love for God. That's it. God was not "working" in his life trying to bring forth "submission." Can't you see that that line of reasoning is completely unscriptural and at the same time nothing more than an opressive cult manipulation.

There is no pain in running to God. There is only healing for the pain you suffered in being away from God.

And by the way, "What constitutes a lie? Less than 1%" Are you trying to say that John's "word" was 100% true without any room for error or infalliblity? If not then you admit that there is a percent of it that is false and thus by your own definition John's "word" is a lie.

Personally I just get tried of this endless justification of John's word. Year after Year, decade after decade, generation after generation it brings forth nothing but abuse and sour fruit, and still no great kingdom or resurection or peace or prosperity or anything. And the age old excuse is always the same, condemnation. Condemn those in the movement and blame them.
"If only someone would come along and really pick up John's word and really walk in it..." Perhaps it's time that you finally open your eyes and realize that the problem isn't the people. The people are honestly trying to walk in John's word. Face the facts. The reason it never works and always leads to abuse and human failing is because the word is false. Stop blaming the people at the bottom of the pyramid for the failings of the top. That was my goal in coming here.

Gary and Marilyn always want to blame the people under them when things go wrong. Oh this shepherd was bad. Oh that shepherd was bad. He was harsh, he was independent. Get rid of this apostle. Get rid of that apostle. So long Bob Barton, so Long Bill Maybe, So long Mike Schmerhorn, so long Dan Staton. So long, so long , so long. "Let's get some new people in here who really have a heart connection with Marilyn and John and want to make this work." It's all a lie.

It's time to take the failings of this movement and direct them to those responsible. This is why I've never shied away from unflinchingly laying the blame on the shoulders of Gary and Marilyn and John. If you do anything else you're only allowing them to escape the blame for thier own actions, manipulate the situation, and keep controlling you. Gary and Marilyn and John Robert Stevens are completely responsible for each and every abuse, atroicity, and misguided teaching that has ever been put forth in the Living Word Fellowship.

This is why thier "word" yeilds naught but dependency, arrogance, oppression, poverty, destruction of families, harshness, loss of boundaries and privacy, abuse, and pain. This is why they lead lives of the rich and famous, while most of the honest people in the church scrape by to pay thier 50 bucks a month to APCO support. This is why 1979 came and went without any fan fare as Henry pointed out. The word is false. Ultimately, there is no other explanation. Anything else is just justification and rationalizing away the responsibility.

You've been living in a dream world Mr. Anonymous, it's time to wake up.

[Ted Turney]

If you knew anything about anyone, those people left on their own accord. In fact, some of them never left. (in reference to the "so long" apostles).

What a poison pie you bake.

[Chad]

I wasn't saying they got physically thrown out. That is only reserved for the exceptionally wicked. My point is that like so many others they were blamed and made as scape goats. You can not deny thier public rebuke by Gary and Marilyn. IF I'm not mistaken, Dan Statton was said to have unbelief toward Marilyn.

Are you saying that it is OK to publicly humiliate people so they have no choice but to leave? Who wants to stay when they've been publicly attacked as being against Marilyn, or having unbelief or any other thing they were accused of? Who wants to stay in a place where a record of thier public attack is sent out on a 5 star tape? Saying they left of thier own accord is naive.

Also, Whether they stay or go is unimportant. You never hear Gary and Marilyn saying, "Wow, we really screwed up there. Oh, God didn't lead us do do that. Oh man we shouldn't have put that that man over those people. Boy was that a mistake" It's always someone else who is to blame. And that list of apco was just a microcosm. The same blaming and replacement of shepherds has gone on for generations. Show me a shepherd of a church who has been in place for over ten years. What Shiloh? They hardly have the same shepherd in Shiloh for 5 years much less 10. In pamler lake they played the blame a shepherd replace a shpeherd game every couple years. I've seen it over and over and over again.

In the healthy Christian world it is not uncommon for someone to shepherd a church for twenty years.

You can not deny the constant replacement of authority under Gary and Marilyn. Everytime something goes wrong Gary and Marilyn swoop in on thier white horse to make everything OK, without ever admitting that they were responsible in the first place. Errors in shepherd placement are the product of thier lack of perception and thier "playing God" with the churches.

A poison pie? You point out one little point and ignore the rest. Nice try at pointing out one small issue in an attempt to discount what you can not discount: namely that Gary and Marilyn blame often and take responsibility for error never.

[Appalled]

So, are you saying that by speaking against the Living Word Fellowship one is choosing to not serve the Lord? And you don't see anything wrong with that??

[Lisa]

Chad,

Why all the hate? You are not just critical, but you are on a vengeful sweeping hatred of these people. Interesting to hear what people have suffered, but to come back thrashing as you have done.... Thank God you're not in my church . Own any guns????

[Chad]

Lisa.
Thanks for the post. I really don't hate anyone, and since I'm me, I have a pretty good idea of what's in my own heart.

Say about me what you will. If you need to attack me to feel better about yourself, go right ahead. I don't mind. But the real issue here is not whether I am a mean nasty hateful person. The real issue here is whether or not the points I have made are accurate concerning the Living Word Fellowship. If you have some point to make on that subject, please go ahead. If you feel my points are wrong, that I have let my "hate" skew my response, please show me where and how. But try to be specific please.

[Anonymous]

The only outright personal attacks and hatred and fear have come from LWF posters. So much for the "love".

[Anonymous]

Hate, no. Anger, yes. And anger is perfectly natural when you're deep in the throes of trying to heal from your experiences. Consider that the foundation of what you were brought up to believe, and many of the people you loved and trusted, were false. And now that you don't believe it anymore, your family and friends have a hard time (or just plain will not) talk to you, consider you misguided and even the "enemy".

It's incredibly frustrating not to be able to help family members who are still stuck in the grip of the church. For example, my parents have given the last 20 years of their life to the church. They have lived off their savings to the point where now, they are past retirement age, have no savings, and borderline poverty level social security income. One of them works for minimum wage, the other has been told not to work for several years now so they can continue to volunteer in the church and serve the Lord. They have been told to have faith in God, everything will work out, and they absolutely believe it. Maybe it will, but they're playing with their future. And then something happens like a few years ago, when the church took up an offering to buy Gary and Marilyn a new car. Church members give, and G&amp;M buy a Lexus. Maybe in a few years the leadership where my parents are will be changed, and they will find out that what they were told to do was financially incredibly stupid. But there will be no apologies to those members who have been mislead, and who will help them? Will G&amp;M sell their Lexus to provide financial support for my parents who have been blindly serving them and the church for many years?

I'd just like someone in the LWF to show me that G&amp;M have not been deified to the point where people in the church will blindly follow them in any direction. So many major problems in the leadership and functioning of the LWF have been pointed out here, but LWF supporters seem to defend their beliefs by criticizing the posters as being bitter or hateful, instead of showing how those points may be wrong. The problem is, they can't.

[Verdict]

Alright dude, here's the deal.

Shepherds are not going to force you to give money. There are plenty of people who don't! If they are having such financial problems, they maybe need to be working with an accountant or someone to figure out what to do.

A car for G&amp;M is not ridiculous; their old one died. It's no surprise that a large sum was raised on this occasion--people genuinely love and care for G&amp;M. And it's not about making God out of man or woman. It's not at all about man-worship. If they are the source of the word that I live by [please, no attacks on that statement; it's my choice to do so] then I am going to make sure they are taken care of.

Whether that means I give whatever I can afford out of my wallet at the time of that offering--or if they need someone to help prepare food for them, because they're so darned busy with phonecalls to possibly do it themselves--i'm going to do it. And that's MY choice, not anyone else making me, or even suggesting that I do so.

I'm a free person of strong beliefs. And I'm not a drone. If at some point I feel like doing other things, I can take off anytime. Though people may complain, there isn't any martial law or brainwashing that keeps me locked in this "abusive and mislead" group.

Sorry I couldn't address all the issues--I'm in a bit of a hurry at the moment.

A good day to you all.

[Verdict]

Alright dude, here's the deal.

Shepherds are not going to force you to give money. There are plenty of people who don't! If they are having such financial problems, they maybe need to be working with an accountant or someone to figure out what to do.

A car for G&amp;M is not ridiculous; their old one died. It's no surprise that a large sum was raised on this occasion--people genuinely love and care for G&amp;M. And it's not about making God out of man or woman. It's not at all about man-worship. If they are the messenger of God's word that I live by [please, no attacks on that statement; it's my choice to do so] then I am going to make sure they are taken care of.

Whether that means I give whatever I can afford out of my wallet at the time of that offering--or if they need someone to help prepare food for them, because they're so darned busy with phonecalls to possibly do it themselves--i'm going to do it. And that's MY choice, not anyone else making me, or even suggesting that I do so.

I'm a free person of strong beliefs. And I'm not a drone. If at some point I feel like doing other things, I can take off anytime. Though people may complain, there isn't any martial law or brainwashing that keeps me locked in this "abusive and mislead" group.

Sorry I couldn't address all the issues--I'm in a bit of a hurry at the moment.

A good day to you all.

[Verdict]

Sorry. Guess the preview edit button was interested in duplicating my post.

[Anonymous]

Hi Verdict,

Thanks for the replying. I wanted to clarify a couple things however.

In regards to my parent's financial situation, I have definitely talked to them about seeking financial help. However they don't want to pay an accountant to tell them what their financial problems are. They mostly don't want to hear it - it's scary, who wants to hear that? In their thinking they are covered by their shepherd, as they are doing what their shepherd told them to do, so they have no need to be concerned, they have faith that everything will work out. Of course it's also easy for them to think this way, as they don't have to take responsibility for their situation. So the shepherd gets what he wants - free help in the church, and my parents get what they want - not to take responsibility for their life (they believe that their designated relationship is doing that for them).

I agree, a car for G&amp;M is not ridiculous, it is required. And I am not saying they should be driving a heap of junk either. It's just that people give money (even if they can't afford it), because it is G&amp;M. They obviously received a lot of money, and bought a car that (in my opinion) the vast majority of people in the church will never be able to afford. I think it would have been more responsible of them to buy a less extravagant car, and give the extra money to other church operations. This would take some of the burden of the church members also giving money to support the other church operations.

Yes, it is your choice to do what you want. And for strong people such as yourself, I don't worry. It's the many members who are unsure or think very lowly of themselves, who join with promises of love and fellowship. They are more easily manipulated and do what they are told. However, I suspect that if you did begin doing your own things, without submitting them first, you would find that problems would arise.

And as far as the issues I was talking about, for example Chad/Neo has brought up a ton of them in this thread and the other two about the LWF. The thing is, he's not lying or manipulating the facts, what he says is true and is the way the fellowship functions.

[Chad]

First of all Verdict, let me just say that nothing I am going to post is a personal attack on you. I'm not judging or condemning you, I've been there too. I've thought those thoughts. I've lived by those same "strong personal beliefs." I've had my own personal identity completely wrapped up in the fellowship. I believed that Marilyn was my mother. I believed that John's word was "the word." I believed that Gary was the wisest man I had ever met. I wanted nothing more than to serve them. I had justification for Gary and Marilyn up my sleeve and ready to go. But then something happened in my life that gave me just the smallest window to see through it all. Similar to what others here have experienced.

now in response to your post.

A car for G&amp;M is not ridiculous.

let's correct that statment so it is accurate. It is not a car. I drive a car. You drive a car. A lexus, like a mercedes, a cadillac, or a BMW, is a luxury car. Heated Leather power seats, wood grain on the dash, CD player, power sun roof, cruise control, hand held door unlocker, a power package, plus a bunch of luxury stuff I don't even know has been invented yet.

True, A car for G&amp;M is not ridiculous.
But, A luxury car for G&amp;M is ridiculous.

Why not buy a ford and spend the money on Word for the World if they believe in getting the word out so much. Better yet, buy a saturn, that's a good sturdy car. The other ridiculous part is that they travel so much they never even drive the car. Another family just needs car to get to work so they can put food on the table, and they need a luxury car to sit in the drive way. You're telling me you can't see any problems with that?

The issue is not the car. It is the luxury. The previous poster was pointing out that his/her parents have commited to living in poverty so that Gary and Marilyn can live in luxury. The leader of a movement of god should not live in luxury while the members live in poverty. As a parent, if your child tries to spend thier college tuition fund on a birthday present for you, you say "no. That money would be better spent on your college education." Gary and Marilyn are supposed to be the spiritual parents here. IN effect they responded, "OK son, you don't need to go to college, or to invest in your retirment, lets go buy me a lexus." That's twisted.

And you might have a point if it was just a one time thing, a one time giving of money to them. But it wasn't just a one time thing. People gave them thousands that they spent on a coffee table. Can someone please verify the dollar amount of that table? It has little scupltures on it of turtles i believe. They keep it in thier home in Palmerlake. And they have people giving them money monthly to pay for thier travel and living expenses. They are continually receiving money from the people to provide for themselves. There had to be people n the church who needed a car more than them. Surely they had the authority and the ability to redirect that money to a needier person. But they didn't.

"Shepherds are not going to force you to give money"
Every week at the church I went to someone would get up and make a big speech and make you feel guilty for not giving money. The shpeherds would come back fro mthe shepherds conference and say, "We pledged this much to Gary and Marilyn! That means each family needs to come up with 50 bucks a month! YAY!" Also we need to maintain our church, that's another 30. And we need this word for the world! And we need to help TLW! There are two offerings every week. And on top of everything you are supposed to tithe. The collecting of money is a regualr focus in the fellowship. OFten the "offering" section of the service takes 20 to 30 minutes while someone talks on and on about why you need to give money. Saying it is a free will offering is naive.

"they are the messenger of God's word "
They are not the messenger of God's word Verdict. Jesus Christ was the word. He was the only messenger. His sacrifice was perfect. The gospels are perfect. There is no need for another messenger. In fact the bible warns of people who in the future will say they are messengers of a new word. It warns not to follow them.

"It's not at all about man-worship."
Saying they are messengers, or God's voice in the earth, that is the man worship right there. You are elevating them to a position that no person should have. The idea of them being a messenger of God's word is unspcriptural and blasphemy. But you have been told it is true from such a young age that you accept it as true without verifying it with the scriptures or applying critical thought. That is the definition of brainwashing. You never had a chance kid.

"I'm a free person of strong beliefs. And I'm not a drone."
And yet those strong personal beliefs, that are definately your own, and have not been programed into you, are EXACLTY what is taught and has been taught in the fellowship since before you were born. You are not a drone, yet if your shepherd says he needs you to do it, you will do it lickety split. You are not brainwashed, yet you never use your own brain or the scriptures God gave you to verify if Gary and Marilyn have a right to say they are who they say they are. You believe Gary is the voice of God in the earth, because he said he was. You believe Marilyn is the Lamp os Israel, because Gary said she was. You believe what they say, not because you check to see if its true. You believe in them, and therefore what they say is true. Now they can tell you anything, and you will do it wholeheartedly. In fact, you'd be so happy that Gary and Marilyn were talking to you, you wouldn't even need to get confirmation.

"I can take off anytime. Though people may complain, there isn't any martial law or brainwashing that keeps me locked in this "abusive and mislead" group"
Cults don't work by physically forcing you to stay in. They work by getting you to so believe in what they tell you, that you are following God, so that they can use your good intentioned love for God angainst you. When that happens they don't have to force you to do anything, your pure love for God will force you to stay in and do everything they say.

I think people here are the most angry at having had thier own love for God used against them.

[Anonymous]

Moses was a messenger of God's word. Repeatedly.

Don't be so quick to disqualify

[Chad]

You are Correct. Moses was a messenger of God's word repeatedly. Namely God's first Covenant. But to use that as an illustration that there should be modern messengers after Jesus, is incorrect. The first Covenant of Moses was a faulty covenant, and Moses was a faulty messenger. The story is quite clear about how Moses sinned against God, and that he did not reach the promise land because of it. I say this not to be critical of Moses but to show that Jesus Christ was the perfect messenger of the perfect, whole, and complete covenant. The word testament, actually means covenant. So that when we say the Old testament and the new testament, we mean the old covenant and the new covenant.

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

Luke 22:28 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

You see, Jesus didn’t come to speak a new covenant or to bring a “word” or to be the messenger of God. He was not the voice of God in the Earth. He did not speak for God. Look what he says, “the new covenant in my blood.” He was the new covenant. He was the message.

Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[1] :
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[2]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

You see, Jesus came that he might complete and fulfill the message of Moses. God realized that the old covenant did not work, so he said that he would bring about a new covenant. Jesus replaced the old covenant of stone. So when I say that there is no need for a new messenger, it is because there is no need for a new word. The message is complete. To say that God needs Gary and Marilyn to be his messengers in the earth is to imply that there is something unsatisfactory with the message of Jesus. It is to imply that it must be added to, or explained, or interpreted.
And this impication that there is this history of speaking the word and being a messenger in the earth; that Moses was a messenger or voice of God and Jesus was and Now Gary is. That doesn’t make any sense. Because the message of Jesus wasn’t what he said, it was what he did, and what he was. The New Covenant was poured out in his blood. He didn't speak the word, he was the word.

This is why, at his crucifixion, he said “it is finished.”

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Note, he didn’t say “It is finished until John Robert Stevens and Gary and Marilyn come along in a couple thousand years and REALLY finish it.” I don’t think that if God was going to sacrifice his son for salvation that he left anything to chance. He finished it all right there and then.

The problem is that you have been taught to think in terms of "speaking the word" from your history of following John. What a scary world and future we would have if we had to rely on frail human vessles to speak God's word and lead us into salvation. But in truth there is no need for anyone to "speak the word." Jesus Christ, who is the son of God, did that for us. Not by speaking it, but by being it, and by being crucified that we may be saved. That is the good news, the message, of the gospels.

And by the way, Jesus did speak a lot of teachings about how to live. Unfortunately they were in Aramaic, and recorded in greek, but if you really wanted to live according to his teachings, I doubt you would need to rely on a human to be the "voice of God in the Earth" or "messenger of God" to tell you what Jesus said. In fact, if you look hard enough, you could probably find a translation somewhere. In fact, you might already own one.

[.]

While I don't think I will ever be as involved with a church as I was with the walk, I do know that a bad experience or dozens of bad experiences with a cult is no reason to stop seeking the fellowhship of Christians under sound teaching. I learned that one of the biggest reasons I was involved with a cult was that I was looking to hear what I wanted to hear. I wanted a walk with God, but without the cross of Jesus Christ. I wanted to get high and talk the talk. Now I am sober and earnestly seeking the Lord in a very small Church of God.

[Justin]

Here's a scripture in response to posts from Verdict and Anonymous. I believe this has been mentioned previously, but just to reiterate...

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (Feel free to use your preferred translation)

The point is, God's Word is true always. It doesn't change. It's infallible. So when someone says that they are a messenger of God's Word, or maybe that they're "bringing the Word" and it's not 100% accurate in every respect, that is not a Word from God. It's just that simple.

I'd also like to point out in reference to the last post from Anonymous that Moses wasn't waited on hand and foot all day long. I'm also pretty sure he didn't drive a Lexus.

And, in reference to Chad's earlier post, here's another explanation why he calls certain things ridiculous: Ezekiel 34:2-3. The problem that we see that you don't is that Gary and Marilyn, if they were true shepherds or apostles, would be the ones living the modest life. They should not be better off than the majority of the congregation. There's the Ephesians 4:11-13, where it talks about the gifts (apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, etc.) given for "the equipping of the saints" (NASB), but it seems to be a terrible perversion that serving those in a position higher than you is equated with being equipped.

We wouldn't have any argument about this if Gary and Marilyn treated you the way you treat them, if they were as willing to serve you as you are them. Can you fathom such a thing?

[Ted Turney]

Funny, I was in a small Church of God, and found that I was being told everything I wanted to hear. "Jesus loves you." "Stray not from His fold."

Which is all nice to hear and all. But there really wasn't any doing. So I found the LWF about 2 years later and A. have been active beyond just hearing sermons--via construction and such, and B. have been experienced the "cross of Jesus" to more frequently and fully than I ever would have in that little old church that never would have challenged my lifestyle.

There was no period of being indoctrinized--I immediately recognized the Word as His, rather than man's. Argue all you want, but you won't change me from being happy and objective.

[Trinity]

I would argue that much of the "cross of Jesus" you are experiencing, as well as the challenging of your lifestyle, is unnecessary. The idea of "God bringing devastation" seems like more of a rationalization for the consequences of wrong behavior and lack of people taking responsibility for their actions than a divine intervention from God. Just my opinion.

[Ted Turney]

You're certainly entitled to that opinion.

Just know that I am not experiencing the "total devastation" that some posts have referred to. I've been challenged moderately, and have measurably grown as a result. I think it's entirely necessary--2 years ago I was a more intolerant person with very limited knowledge of the scriptures.

[Bill Summerville Jr.]

Chad,

You claim while you were a member of the fellowship you had a gift for prophesy and
leading worship.You got annointings and signs
and visions. You could speak a word like nobodys
business.

Now you say what a scary world and future we would have if we had to rely on frail human vessles to speak God's word.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabus answered them boldly" We had to speak the word of God to you first.

I've heard people say Marilyn is the Lamp of
Israel as if its some badge of honor or someone
being called an apostle as being a badge of honor. I haven't lived either one but I would
say it has to be hell. Remember Mary the mother of Jesus had to be called a slut and who knows
what else.

Should I listen to God speaking over at the
Spiritual Counterfeits Project, or maybe
Jesus Mary Alice Chrnalogar.

If I were Gary and Marilyn I wouldn't take a Lexus. Maybe a Corvette with everything on it,
but that's just my taste.

Since Elisabeth said I was ignorant, I guess you
can call me a liar since I did post again.

The saddest part about this whole thing is you are giving up all the gift's you had just because
you were hurt. If you truly did and knew everthing you said that you did, I wish I walked in half that much. But if it meant I would give
up the living word then I would rather be called
ignorant. Please think about your 2 year old son.

Bill Summerville Jr.

P.S. Could Captain Cassette &amp; Zorba please post which strong drink John was drinking, because I want to buy a boat load.

[Verdict]

(rows of applause)

[Bugsy]

I've been reading the posts of late and have to speak up. All this talk of offerings and people being so poor yet giving to Gary &amp; Marilyn I can't sit by and listen to it any longer. Each and every person is responsible for there own destiny financial and otherwise. Each person is responsible for how they spend their money. If an offering is taken up in a service nobody forces any one to give anything. It is and has always been a free will offering. The plates are held at the front of the church and each person must walk up on their own accord and put money in. The plate isn't passed from row to row as in most churches were you would feel obligated to put something in because you have to pass it along in the row.

In the Catholic church they send you a yearly book of envelopes with an amount on them that you are supposed to put the offering every week. Depending on your income they tell you how much you should put in. It is that way in quite a few denominations actually.

When the offering was taken for a car for Gary &amp; Marilyn because their old one was at least 15 years old they weren't planning to buy a Lexus but when people freely gave from their heart $20 here and there so many people wanted to give something that they were overwhelmed by peoples generousity and decided to spend the money on a quality car that would last them another 15 years or so. Totally their perogative. The money was a gift to them for them to spend however they wanted. No one was forced, coerced or brainwashed to give money they just wanted to.

For those of us still in this church we realize that Gary and Marilyn are full time ministers and work for the church every day of the week. I'm sure they work twice as many hours in a week as any of you posting on this website. And yes we choose to support them because we believe that they have a true ministry and calling from God. This is what we choose to do no one is forcing, coercing or brainwashing us in to it. It is totally our perogative. Most churches out there have full time paid pastors who have salaries, parsonage, homes, cars etc. That is just the way it is done.

Another subject

I've been in this church for over 30 years so I've seen many people come and go. If someone leaves this church we don't sit around and talk bad about them, we wish them well on the journey to find God somewhere else. I think some of the people posting here who are no longer in the church have a perverse thinking that we are thinking about you wishing you would come back or something. We are not! You all chose to come into this church and you all chose to leave this church.. SO leave already! Why are you spending hours each and every day coming up with these long exhausting sudo-sermons on trying to make this church and Gary &amp; Marilyn into something they are not. Walking with God is a personal and private matter between each person and God. Who are you to say what is right and wrong? Who died and made you the authority on religion?

Some of you have left this church and you do not share our opinion. That doesn't make this church a cult. Far from it. Just because you guys read in a book somewhere that this or other movements are a cult, that does not make it true.
If anything you are more in a cult now than you were when you were in this church because you spend countless hours each day totally focused on trying to prove this is a cult. You are totally obsessed. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? This is a mainstream non-denominatonal Bible teaching, Bible following church. You can go in to most nondenominational churches today and hear the same things being taught. Just because you had a bad experience with someone or something doesn't make it a cult. The world is a big bad place and there are some bad people in it. Does that make the world a cult? NO

Just because there is a page on this website doesn't make it a cult either. There is a site on here for Wal Mart for goodness sakes. Wal Mart is now a cult because someone gets on Fact.net and says it is. I don't think so. And just because there are a couple of books listing cults at Barnes &amp; Noble that doesn't make it true. This is America. Freedom of speak. People can write a book and say whatever they want in it and it is totally legal, BUT that does not make it true.

You guys can think what you want and say what you want BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. You are out of this church now. Go, be warmed and fed. Just do it somewhere else. Stop obsessing over the past. Make a future for yourself. That's what we are doing.

[Anonymous]

Bill.
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this but I think Chad is either having trouble with his memory or just plain stretching the truth because he never brought the word like nobodys business. He may have brought a teaching in a home meeting a time or two but never from the church pulpit. He didn't lead worship either. He may have helped lead worship but if he did it was forgetable. He would prophesy from time to time but his own arrogance came through more than anything else.

He has always been very full of himself and has puffed himself up to make himself seem like something he was not just to create some sort of credibility while posting his ludicris rantings on this website.

In other words he never really had any gifts to give up.

[Chad]

Wow bugsy by capatilizing those statements you made them true. That's like magic.

Our point that it is a cult is based on one book and one book only.

The Bible.

Everything else is only confirmation.

Bill, glad you came back. We missed you.
"Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabus answered them boldly" We had to speak the word of God to you first. "

I'm not sure if you are quoting this scripture to disprove me? I'm not sure it means what you think it means. My point is that there is no need for a new word, no need to build upon the teachings of Christ, no need for a new messenger in the Earth. Was Paul acting as a messenger of God, speaking a new direction in the Earth after Jesus? Or was he actin as a messenger of Jesus Christ, relaying what Jesus had done? You are right, they did go around speakign the word bill, but what was the word Bill? What was the Word that Paul and Barabas were speaking? Was it about resurection life for JRS? ummm, no. Was it about Marilyn being the lamp of israel, ummm no. Was it about Shiloh and people serving each other? ummm no. Gosh what was the word they were speaking. Oh, now I remember.

It was Jesus Christ. They were speaking the Gospel, spreading the message of Jesus Christ. Teaching about the new covenant. Did Paul ever do anything else?

But were they going around, holing up and making a living for themselves telling the same group of people "the word" every sunday? Did paul build a school of prophets and live in luxury and keep telling the same stories?

No. They were going around telling people who had never heard. They were spreading the word of God, that is Jesus Christ. They wre not teaching about serving this person who is "christ in the earth" so that you can mature as a christian. They were teaching of salvation.

Do you know why they had to go around teaching about it? Because the bible hadn't been invented yet. The only way to spread the good news of the gospel was by word of mouth. They spoke it, because it had to be spoken. This is very different from the idea of being the "voice of God in the Earth." They were not building thier own little kingdoms. They were not walking around with little titles for themselves. They were only teaching of Jesus Christ. That's it.

"Should I listen to God speaking over at the
Spiritual Counterfeits Project, or maybe
Jesus Mary Alice Chrnalogar." Wow, you don't even need to make an intelligent point, by mocking it you make it untrue. Foiled again! What Magic!

"The saddest part about this whole thing is you are giving up all the gift's you had just because
you were hurt. "
How arrogant to assume that I am giving up the gifts because I choose not to be a member of the fellowship.

"It is that way in quite a few denominations actually." Oh really, which ones?

"Most churches out there have full time paid pastors who have salaries, parsonage, homes, cars etc. That is just the way it is done. " Well I think most minsters are paid, true, I'm not sure the rest is accurate, but even if it is. Gary and Marilyn have 5 houses. Do most ministers in churches have five houses? Do most pastors own the churches too?

The living word fellowship is a corporation. Who do you think is on the title of that corporation? Is it you Bugsy? Is it your brothers and sisters in the Lord? Is it a group of trustees? Let's use our brains for a moment, I promise it won't hurt.
Who do you think ultimately owns the trust fund and all of the churches? Honestly who does? Do the individual shepherds own them? I don't think so. Does Apco own them? Legally who does? How many minsiters out there own the churches, have 5 houses, drive a lexus, and are financially supported by the congregation while having servants to prepare every meal for them? How many? Is that how it is done is regualr churches? Or was your point purely blind speculation?

"This is a mainstream non-denominatonal Bible teaching, Bible following church. You can go in to most nondenominational churches today and hear the same things being taught" Really? Which ones? Which other churches do you ever attend? Or is that purely blind speculation? Honestly bugsy I could add that question on to every point you made.

Honestly I don't want to spend my time arguing with members. IF you people hate all this so much, then just leave. It seems more like you are the ones who are obsessed. If you are sure we are wrong, then no worries, say we are wrong and go back to church. UNless you are a little worried we are right, and you keep posting to prove it. The biggest question is why you ever came to a cult site looking for the Living word fellowship in the first place.

[Chad]

I feel no need to defend myself anonymous. I knew that sooner or later the viciousness of the Living word fellowship would come out and you would attack me personally. It is your nature. I accepted such a risk when I posted my name. Funny that you did not have the courage to post your own.

as was previously posted

"The only outright personal attacks and hatred and fear have come from LWF posters. So much for the "love". "

[Chad]

And by the way, if you go back and read that post, it was tongue in cheek, it was meant to sound puffed up, it was a direct allusion to Paul's speech where he says that he was the Jew of all jews but counts it as dung. My point wasn't so much that I was a perfect son of God, but that I was completely absorbed into being a member of the fellowship as much as Paul was of the Jews. But then like him I saw the truth.

But that's my mistake Bill, I shouldn't have expect any of you to catch a bible allusion. Now if it had been from Gary's word...

[Justin]

Here's my two or three cents:

Ted,
Good to hear you're loving God's Word. Just don't mix it up with Gary's or John's; and, despite being in the Walk, you have a chance at actually doing the right thing from the sound of it. Just make sure that everything you do is backed up scripturally. It's like it's said in Matthew 7:15-21, just look at the fruit. I think a truly objective person has a chance in the LWF if they can filter the garbage out because, as has been stated in previous posts, there are quite a few positive things about TLWF, but unfortunately the negative are far more destructive for most than the positive are constructive. Good luck in the long run.

Trinity,
Right on. No need to reiterate what I believe to be true. You're a good man.

Mr. Summerville,
"I've heard people say Marilyn is the Lamp of Israel as if its some badge of honor or someone
being called an apostle as being a badge of honor. I haven't lived either one but I would
say it has to be hell. Remember Mary the mother of Jesus had to be called a slut and who knows
what else."

Sorry to be harsh (perhaps even ignorant to some people who are set in their ways), but the important part about Jesus's birth and upraising had nothing to do with his mother, but his Father. Jesus said, "[Matthew 12:47-50]". Mary worship should be discussed on a different thread; I will leave my response to the aforementioned scripture.

Anyway, please, TELL ME THIS: (NOTICE THE CAPS, THAT MEANS THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD RESPOND TO IF YOU CAN): Why is Marilyn the Lamp of Israel?

And I couldn't imagine the hell of having hundreds of people mindlessly doing whatever I command them to do, having many houses (of course only in the best locations), having meals prepared for me wherever I go, driving a luxury car that I don't need but a few days a year, getting a 6-figure salary that I really only need one-tenth of to live at a middle-class state since I really have hardly any expenses besides my luxuries, etc. Yeah that sure would be hell.

The funny thing is, you'll probably attack me for being sarcastic, rather than responding to anything else I said. Typical. Nothing personal, Bill, please don't take it as an attack. Just speaking the truth as I see it based on my personal experiences with people and reading these message boards.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any posts from either Captain Cassette or Zorba on this thread...please address your issues with them on the appropriate thread.

Verdict,
"Rows" consist of many people, not just you.

Bugsy,
Bugsy! Way to go! You are the first person to even attempt a comeback at someone's statement rather than at the person themself! However:

"If an offering is taken up in a service nobody forces any one to give anything. It is and has always been a free will offering. The plates are held at the front of the church and each person must walk up on their own accord and put money in. The plate isn't passed from row to row as in most churches were you would feel obligated to put something in because you have to pass it along in the row."

I can second Chad's responseas true, and others can as well: "Every week at the church I went to someone would get up and make a big speech and make you feel guilty for not giving money. The shpeherds would come back fro mthe shepherds conference and say, "We pledged this much to Gary and Marilyn! That means each family needs to come up with 50 bucks a month! YAY!" Also we need to maintain our church, that's another 30. And we need this word for the world! And we need to help TLW! There are two offerings every week. And on top of everything you are supposed to tithe. The collecting of money is a regualr focus in the fellowship. OFten the "offering" section of the service takes 20 to 30 minutes while someone talks on and on about why you need to give money. Saying it is a free will offering is naive.

"In the Catholic church they send you a yearly book of envelopes with an amount on them that you are supposed to put the offering every week. Depending on your income they tell you how much you should put in. It is that way in quite a few denominations actually." Including the LWF. They told us every Sunday how much each family should give. Well, it wasn't quite like the Catholics--they didn't split it up by income, just split it up evenly by family.

"No one was forced, coerced or brainwashed to give money they just wanted to." Sorry to break it to you sir, but "just wanted to" is another way of saying "were brainwashed". That's the best thing about brainwashing--you thing you're doing what you want, but you're doing what you're trained to want.

"I'm sure they work twice as many hours in a week as any of you posting on this website." Funniest thing I've heard today. How many hours do you think they work? How many of the people that post do you know personally? Please try to avoid making up things to make people who have different opinions than you look bad against your lords and masters, G&amp;M. "Most churches out there have full time paid pastors who have salaries, parsonage, homes, cars etc. That is just the way it is done." Last I heard, they each make about $75,000 per year. It may be higher by now. Tell me, since the congregation buys their food, pays for their travel, buys them a luxury car, provides them with places to stay free of charge at many churches, etc., what are their expenses for this over one-eighth of a million per year income? Must be rough.

"If someone leaves this church we don't sit around and talk bad about them, we wish them well on the journey to find God somewhere else." Wow. Don't know which church you go to, but in the ones I've been to in the LWF, it's exactly the opposite. That is good, however, that you apparently belong to a LWF church that is the exception.

"I think some of the people posting here who are no longer in the church have a perverse thinking that we are thinking about you wishing you would come back or something." Just the opposite. I think I speak for most, if not all, of us who have left when I say that there is absolutely nothing that would ever make us come back. As far as wishing we'd come back, I've personally heard it from six people, so apparently my thinking is not perverse. Believe it or not, but beyond all of our "bitterness" and "hatred", we've come to a true walk with God and want to share it with the people that we grew up with and love. It is so painful to see such wonderful people being misled. Please try to understand, we're doing our best to help any way we can, both to people still in the Walk and people that have left it.

"Who died and made you the authority on religion?" Jesus died, and He is the authority on religion. Not Gary or Marilyn.

Honestly, the best way to get any point you have across is the Bible. That's the only thing that (with the exception of the lurker morons) we all agree on. So when you have something to say, put some scripture behind it. (Yeah, I'm a hypocrite for not doing so on this post).

"Just because you guys read in a book somewhere that this or other movements are a cult, that does not make it true." Quite right. But the many posts that have been made on this thread and others that define a cult, and in doing so describe the LWF to a T, that's what makes it true. It's a cult. Accept it.

"Just because you had a bad experience with someone or something doesn't make it a cult. The world is a big bad place and there are some bad people in it. Does that make the world a cult? NO" Once again, what makes it a cult isn't the people, but the doctrines. Yes, there were bad experiences. These were resulting not from specific people but from these false doctrines. And yes, that makes it a cult.

"You guys can think what you want and say what you want BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE." I'd just like to substitute something in that sentence: You guys can think what Gary wants and say what John wants BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

Anonymous,
Once again, great job attacking the person rather than the actual issue. Please, if you're going to try to make Chad look small, then you can at least have the guts to address the other issues he brings up. Oh wait, I guess there's no true comeback to those things you choose to ignore. Man, if only you had a Bibl--nevermind, that wouldn't prove your point.

To everyone that agrees completely and to everyone that thinks I'm full of **** and everyone in between...thanks for your opinions. You're what makes us all come back and read this message board every day. Cheers all. Please continue to post.

[Anonymous]

So it's OK for you guys to personally attack Gary &amp; Marilyn and others who you have named personally but if someone says something about you then it is "where is the love?" Where is your love? It's not so fun for the shoe to be on the other foot? You can dish it out but you can't take it I guess.

I would have to disagree with you Chad because I don't think you were kidding about yourself in the earlier post. I think you are trying to be something you are not, never were and probably never will be.

But if you keep saying it maybe you and someone else might just start believing it. Personally I don't. Because you are in the anti-Living Word cult now aren't you?

[Verdict]

Here's one thing I am wondering (not a rebuttal to anything in particular)...

Why do you care how much a coffee table costs?
Don't you have anything nice in your home?

[Anonymous]

Chad,
You don't think you attacks on TLWF have not been vicious and full of hatred? Come on now go back and read them they have been quite vicious, quite personal and full of hatred.

[Anonymous]

I post this with some misgivings, as it's not my business how others live their life, except when that lifestyle affects other people. And this just doesn't seem right? If you google search on "Hargrave Family Trust", you'll find that their house in Hawaii is on 3913 Gail St. The remodel that was done on the place last year can be seen http://www.bwbuilders.com. If you search the Honolulu Assessor's database at http://www.honolulupropertytax.com/AddressSearch.asp?submnu=Address&amp;mnu=PSearch, you'll find that they bought it in 2000 for $1.1 million. Considering that they own four houses elsewhere (so it's been posted here) and own the Living Word Corporation, they appear to have an enormous amount of money. Red flag?

[Chad]

Man this message board is finally getting good. When I first started posting you had to wait a month to see another post, now it's like curses and anger galore! YAY!

Verdict, "Why do you care how much a coffee table costs, Don't you have anything nice in your home
" Yes Verdict I do, but I work for the things I own. I do not buy them off of money I coerce from the poor honest lovers of God. If Gary or Marilyn Got a real job and worked for a living, hey then they could spend thier money on whatvere they pleased and no one would care.

"So it's OK for you guys to personally attack Gary &amp; Marilyn and others who you have named personally but if someone says something about you then it is "where is the love?" " Quite right. We aren't running a cult. When we start running a cult you can display how we live in luxury, how we have an oppressive and manipulative "word," how we have replaced Jesus, how we live like celebrities, how we control others. When we build a pyramid system desinged to have others serve us, and invent blasphemous titles for ourselves, hell, attack away. But try to use the scriptures. :0)

"I would have to disagree with you Chad because I don't think you were kidding about yourself in the earlier post. I think you are trying to be something you are not, never were and probably never will be. But if you keep saying it maybe you and someone else might just start believing it." Anonymous you are absolutely wrong. I am not here to make myself out to be anything. I am nothing. Yes I was arrogant when I was in the fellowship. Yes I was puffed up. Yes I thought too much of myself. Yes I was immature and my skills or gifts were probably not nearly what I imagined them to be. Yes there was too much of Chad and not enough focus on Jesus Christ. You are absolutely right. I'm not being sarcastic. NOt at all. You are absolutely right.
All of that is the byproduct of the Living word as other former members can attest to. But whatever I was in the fellowship, I count as nothing. If I was nothing, better yet, I have less distance to fall. I accept it gladly.
I am nothing. I never will be anything. Nothing I will ever do will be great or worthy of Glory. I should never be followed or adored. For there is only One who is worthy of Glory. There is only one name who is above every other name. And i count my name to be nothing in His sight. His gift is the only true gift. His love is the only true love. His humility is the only true humility. i count myself as nothing compared to the sacrifice and life of the true Word of God, Jesus Christ.

Thank you for making others aware of my failings. I welcome you to expose more. There is only one worthy of building up. The focus should not be on me. If I post often and lengthy posts, it is because there is just so much to say and point out about the living word fellowship. I was indoctrinated for 27 years, it takes a few pages to address everything. But if you feel I am to much of a focal point, thank you for pointing that out. I want no focus here. I have not the power to heal, only He does. I have not the power of salvation, only He does. I have not the power of life, only He does. I am not the way, only He is.

My point in being here is only to point out the undeniable twist of the living word fellowship so that others can disregard this misleading and unscriptural notion of "Christ in the earth," and finally find the true savior. Jesus Christ.

Justin, great post. Great self control.

[Appalled]

Anonymous,

why the personal vendetta against chad? There are many people posting here, not just him. There are many people calling the living word fellowship a cult and citing powerful reasons, not just him. I think it is obvious that you have some little personal vendetta and an axe to grind against him. If everything he has said is such a big hateful and angry LIE, I would think it would be easy for you to use the scriptures to illuminate why he is off target and why the points he has raised are false and why the fellowship is not a cult.
Until you do, I can only assume that your attacks here show nothing more than fear. You are afraid that if he is right, everything you have believed in is wrong. So you attack him, because you cannot attack the points he has made. And hopefully if you descredit him enough you can dicredit his points.

Funny that you say "I think you are trying to be something you are not, never were and probably never will be." Not only is this statement small, cruel, and vicious but unless I am mistaken he is not going around asking others to serve him. He is not telling people that he is Christ in the Earth or the Lamp of Israel or the messenger of God.

[Anonymous]

Oh Please. Don't even pretend now to be humble. You have already showed your true colors in your previous posts. You have shown quite a few attribute none of which are humility.

[Chad]

The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Exodus 15:2

[Justin]

Anonymous,

"So it's OK for you guys to personally attack Gary &amp; Marilyn and others who you have named personally but if someone says something about you then it is "where is the love?" Where is your love? It's not so fun for the shoe to be on the other foot? You can dish it out but you can't take it I guess."

This is a cult message board and it is an important topic to discuss the leaders personally. Saying something personal about someone who posts is off-topic. I think Chad described it best: "This type of ploy is called an "Ad Hominem fallacy." It is an attempt to attack the author of an arguemnt instead of the argument itself. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made)."

The character, circumstances, or actions of Gary and Marilyn, however, do have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. The point that's being made is that they are cult leaders. It is completely necessary to "personally attack" them.

[Verdict]

Justin...Bobo?

By the way, anyone reading those above links about the Hawaiian property ought to also take note of the real estate market at that time.

Hawaii is inflated to the point that $1.1 mil isn't anything to be shocked about.

[Anonymous]

There's always some good justification right around the corner Verdict...

INstead of trying to figure out who Justin is, perhaps you should try figuring out who you are. Atleast some people have the courage to be honest about who they are. It is terribly funny that they are the people who left the cult.

Thanks for the link. I never knew millionaires needed so much financial "support."

[Anonymous]

Verdict,

You're missing the point. Why do Gary and Marilyn even have $1.1 million to spend on a house in the first place? The point is, they're at the top of the food chain of an organization that lives on money from its members. And they appear to be doing extremely well for themselves.

[Anonymous]

They didn't have the money for that house. It was an offering focus.

[Anonymous]

Wow.

[Bugsy]

I think you guys are missing the point. Gary &amp; Marilyn didn't have $1.1 million to buy a house. No one pays cash for a house. You finance it. That's what they did.

What Verdict is saying is a cracker box that needs a complete remodel in Hawaii is $750,000. Why, you say, do they live in Hawaii if it is so expensive. Because that is where Gary grew up and where they wanted to live again. I think people should be able to live wherever they like including Gary &amp; Marilyn.

Just for the record the house in Hawaii is the only house Gary &amp; Marilyn own. They don't own 5 houses as some previous misinformed poster wrote.

They also don't receive a salary of 1/8 of a million dollars. In fact it is well under the estimated $75,000 going rate for a minister you qouted earlier.


These are just more example of things being written on this website being untrue. Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true.

I won't capitilize since it was so offensive to you earlier.

But you guys should really get your facts straight before you make accusations because it really makes you look ignorant.

[Anonymous]

So how much do they make bugsy, since you know?

Most healthy churches docmunet exactly wehre every cent of thier money goes. The church I am in now, raised 6 million dollars last year. And they have a print out as to where every cent went and what every person made. Why is there no such listing of financial information in the Living word fellowship? Why is it all a secret? Tell me those, who legally owns the Living word fellowship corportaion, I tihnk it's actually called Hargrave family ministries, But I could be mistaken. So who owns Hargrave family ministries? Who owns Marilyn Farms? Saying that they don't own the houses that are connected to the churches is not accurate, if they own the churches.

Normal people also finance cars...

[Appalled]

Bugsy,
And, what makes you so credible? Why should I believe you about how much they make and why they live where they live???

[Justin]

"They also don't receive a salary of 1/8 of a million dollars. In fact it is well under the estimated $75,000 going rate for a minister you qouted earlier."

They were making $75K each about 10 years ago. That is a fact.

That figure may have gone up but I doubt it's gone down. That is my personal speculation.

One-eighth of a million is $125K. That is a fact.

"Just for the record the house in Hawaii is the only house Gary &amp; Marilyn own. They don't own 5 houses as some previous misinformed poster wrote."

Can someone help me with this one? I want to stick to the facts. I know they have the house in Hawaii, their own private apartment at Shiloh, their own private cottage in Palmer Lake, and a house in LA. What else?

And since I know it'll come up, I'll just address it now--you could say that they don't "own" the apartment in Shiloh or the cottage in Palmer Lake. But who else uses them? And how much do you pay to stay at Shiloh versus how much they pay? I'd say that counts as owning. When it comes down to it, they own every LWF property.

The point of discussing real estate is basically discussing their net worth, which considering that they legally have complete and exclusive control over all LWF properties, is significantly higher than if they just had 5 houses.

[Appalled]

"I would have to disagree with you Chad because I don't think you were kidding about yourself in the earlier post. I think you are trying to be something you are not, never were and probably never will be."

Hmmmmmmm....what right do you have to say what someone "is", "was" or "will be"? When did you become God?..Oh yeah, you ARE Christ in the Earth.
Shame on you.

Also, I would have to agree with Justin on the point that this IS a "Cult" message board, and the purpose of it IS to discuss and point out problems with the leaders of the said church and the church itself. This isn't "Living Word Fellowship" website. It is a message board to discuss how certain organizations are CULTS. So, of course people are going to investigate the going-ons of the organization. They are also going to express their feelings about having been in such an organization.

My question to some of you: if you don't believe that The Living Word Fellowship is a cult, how did you "stumble" upon this message board in the first place? From what I have been reading, this certainly seems like the LAST place some of you would be spending your time and energy. When I was a member of this group, it NEVER EVER crossed my mind to research it in terms of being a cult. Just curious.

[Anonymous]

I think Brazil makes 5.

[Bugsy]

Appalled I guess I'm credible because I have been in this church for over 30 years and am still an active member.

For your information there are very precise records kept for every church in the fellowship. The records show every dime that comes in and goes out. They aren't open for public record on the internet but I don't know of any church or any other company for that matter that allows that sort of access to the public.

They are however made available to any member of each church to see at any time. And reports are turned in to the IRS each year. Including but not limited to salaries of all employees.

Gary and Marilyn don't own any churches or church properties. Each church is an individual corporation with a board of directors and advisory counsel elected each year. Gary and Marilyn are not on the board of directors or officers of any of these church corporations.
Therfore, they don't have free access to money from any of these corporations.

Yes, they are salaried employees of TLWF. I just don't see that as a problem. They work in the ministry full time. Do you guys feel it is a problem that the pastor of whatever church you go to is a paid employee?

It has been grossly misqouted about how much money they have and make and I am appalled by that, Appalled. You don't have to believe me and quite frankly it is really none of your business.

You aren't a member of any of these churches, if you were you would have access to look at the impeccable financial bookkeeping done by people in each church.

[Bill Summerville Jr.]

Appalled,

I found this web site by typing John
Robert Stevens on Google.

[Bill Summerville Jr.]

Thats google advanced: with the exact phrase.

John Robert Stevens

[JGS]

Bill,

Good to see you back!

Joseph

[Bill Summerville Jr.]

Joseph,

Thanks! Just couldn't help myself.

Bill

[Larry Bobo]

As a former member of the corporation in Palmer Lake, I think it's important to know that at the time I still was a part of TLWF, G&amp;M were apostolic fathering ministries and had final say on any corporate activities. If the Board of Directors could not come to agreement, G&amp;M would make the final decision. If they were to be responsible to JRS for their stewardship of the Walk, then they wanted absolute control. They did not want to see additional churches lost to straying pastors, as had happened in the past.

It seemed fine to me at the time, but now I believe local ownership, which many believe already exists, would provide more safety and also a system of checks and balances. If G&amp;M were to decide all LWF assets were to be transfered to Hargrave Family Ministries, there's nothing anyone could do about it. For some that provides security, for others concern.

[JGS]

Larry,

In any corporate structure, if the board members come to an impass, arbitrators are pre-selected to settle or "have the final say". Stands to reason, otherwise gridlock occurs and nothing functions. Every corporation I've been involved in had pre-designated arbitrators. Plus the corporate structure must be solid to preserve the integrity of the corporation. The local ownership has the ability to choose its bylaws and its corporate structure, as well as the arbitrators. Put yourself in the shoes of one in leadership and what would you choose to safeguard against renegade opportunists? If you are a part of the TLWF, of course G&amp;M would be the logical choice. If it becomes a concern then there is obviouse alternative motives afoot.

[Larry Bobo]

I thought I'd weigh-in on all the talk about G&amp;M's lifestyle. I was privy to their wages at shepherd conferences and personally feel they carry quite a load for the amount of money they make. I don't feel it's extravagant. I worked on their new house in Maui and the cabin in Palmer Lake - I don't know the status of L.A., Brazil, Shiloh, or their recent purchase in Hawaii. It would seem finances could be used more efficiently. It can be a long time between visits and these vacant structures still have utilites to be paid and could be used by someone else.

I personally gave money for their car and would do so again if I were still in the Walk. It's not a Rolls Royce, but a sound investment. I do think the Walk misses a blessing though by not being more aware of taking care of "the least of these my brethren".

JRS taught that those who were supported full-time in the ministry should have a life-style that was median to the people they shepherded. I'm not saying it's a word from God but it seems like sound wisdom.

My pastor is the senior pastor of a church of 11,000 people, President of the NEA, serves in an advisory capacity to President Bush, speaks at times to tens of thousands of ministers - very well respected, and he lives modestly with his large family at a much smaller wage than G&amp;M. In light of what he produces, he could easily be paid several hundred thousand a year and be worth every penney. The fact that he does not, makes me deeply respect him and the gospel. I can understand why the apostle Paul did what he did regarding financial support.

[JGS]

Chad,

You wrote: "You can not deny the constant replacement of authority under Gary and Marilyn. Everytime something goes wrong Gary and Marilyn swoop in on thier white horse to make everything OK, without ever admitting that they were responsible in the first place. Errors in shepherd placement are the product of thier lack of perception and thier "playing God" with the churches."

With that mindset, I guess we'd have to disqualify Jesus who set Judas over the offerings. Heck, the Apostle John wrote that Judas stole from the offerings...and later betrayed Jesus entirely. I guess we can chaulk that up to an error in offering-shepherding placement and a product of Jesus' lake of perception in "playing God" with His desciples.

[Anonymous]

"I can understand why the apostle Paul did what he did regarding financial support. "

What did he do?

[Chad]

My point was for the lack of admitting of responsiblity and apologizing for thier own responsiblity in those errors occuring. Also the two situations are not identical. I wasn't pointing out one isolated issue with one person who was a problem. I was pointing out a trend. Like has been said before, every movement has its problems and its mix of human failings. I agree, that can not be avoided. Human failing will always be a part of everything. It's unavoidable. (Yes even my posts here).
The thing that just sends up a red flag is a trend. When it happens over and over and over again for decades, then I think there must be some investigation as to why.
Also you could make the case that Jesus always knew Judas would betray him and had picked him accordingly for a larger purpose. I'm not sure you can make the case that Gary and Marilyn knew certain shepherds would be hurtful and had placed them in authority on purpose to hurt people for a larger design. That doesn't make much sense. There has to be accountability all the way to the top.

[Larry Bobo]

JGS,
I'm curious if you've served on a LWF corporation and if you recall writing, or having any input on corporate bylaws or structure on a local level. In my experience,those areas are not determined in a local level and you really only serve as a figurehead -not as a genuine owner as a local church. Is it really a relationship if the trust is not mutual or is it a dictatorship? As you so perfectly stated it, any concerns are perceived as "obvious alternative motives afoote". A functioning advisory council is suppose to question - that's the protection - not just rubber stamp. The real point I think we differ on is that I don't think it's the same thing as questioning God and perhaps you do. What's meant to provide safety is perceived as rebellion. What you are very comfortable with, much of mainstream Christianity would be waving red flags.

[Larry Bobo]

Anonymous,
Paul made tents and supported himself and those who traveled with him. He knew the worker is worthy of his wages but chose not to be a burden to the people he ministered to.

[Anonymous]

Bugsy,

Thank you for your "kind" words of advice in this post (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/724.html#POST26852).

I just wanted to make sure that everyone truly understood the flippant and uncaring remark that you made to them, in the context that it was originally used in the Bible. I figured that in your "blissful" ignorance of the Bible, you probably just didn't know how rude that was.

"Go, be warmed and fed."

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
James 2:15-16

[Bugsy]

I said go be warmed and fed because they and you obviously don't want any thing else to do with this church so hopefully you are finding what you need somewhere else.

You made a choice to leave this fellowship and therefore there is really nothing else we can do for you. You will have to find what you need elsewhere.

[Chad]

Thoughts on "where is the love" and "hateful" posts.

Just as a heads up, this isn't any kind of rebuttal or justification, I'm not crying or looking for sympathy or anything like that and I'd appreciate not being attacked as I am trying to be honest.

I've been thinking about this notion of posts being "hateful" and if they have gone too far. Perhaps this will explain for people who do not understand, and help people who are in the middle of this process understand themselves. Note: I am selecting my words very carefully, I mean to say exactly what I am saying.

I think when you go through and experience people have expressed on this site, where you are really honestly hurt deeply in a church. And you are forced to realize that many of the things you thought were real, are not real, and that the people you thought really loved you and were your "family" don't really love you and forget about you when you don't go to church for a month. You come to a very hard place.

A cross roads if you will. You honestly feel that God has been taken away from you and you are lost and have nothing. It is perhaps the scariest darkest hardest feeling there is. Honestly, you just feel completely forsaken.
And as someone has previously posted, you can't blame God. It just doesn't work. You can try, but you don't get anywhere. Blaming God is like blaming the sun for rising. It just is. But inside you feel like you are sinking, and day by day you are sinking more.

So you blame the only people you can blame, the people who hurt you. It's the only logical choice. You could argue that you can blame yourself, but being born into a movement, there was no moment where I consiously chose to buy into it. It just always was what I was taught. And because of that you feel completely betrayed by these people who were supposed to protect you. You realise that the most god awful things can be done to you by "shepherds" and it doesn't even really seem like "Gary and Marilyn" really even care or love you. And honestly, the do have a busy job, and perhaps they just can't pay attention to every detail. People are going to get lost in the cracks. It's bound to happen. Again the human error factor.

But you latch on to the only thing you can. These people who were suppsoed to protect you and love you, didn't. They just didn't. So you blame them. Blame all of them. And you get angry. REALLY angry. And you find strength. And you begin to hate them. Hate them for what they did to you, and hate them for what you percieve they are still doing to others.
But you must see that this all comes from the heart. The heart is badly damaged, and you just so much don't understand why people didn't love you. Why they were harsh with you. And even through all of it, even under all the hate, the worst part is that you truely do still love them all. Each and every one. But you can't reconcile these feelings you have and this anger you have with what you have been taught.
Like I have said from the beginning, I think anger is a part of the process. I think hate is too, atleast for some. You may not agree with this. You may think it is hurtful to others. You may think it is childish or immature or just plain wrong. But all I can say is never second guess the path God can use to heal a person's heart and bring them back to a relationship to Him.

Have some of my posts toward Gary and Marilyn been somewhat overkill. Perhaps. And I apologize for that. I don't really believe that they are evil. I hope in my heart that they aren't. I hope in my heart that they are not trying to run a cult. I hope in my heart that they aren't trying to eclipse Jesus Christ and build thier own little kingdom. Honestly, only God and them know the answer to that question, and we can all argue forever, but we will never have the diffinitive answer.

I do believe as has been posted here that there are some major things with the fellowship that are not healthy. Things that allow for hurts to be perpetuated. Some things that are borderline cult. And some things that really cross the line. But my chief concern is for the problems in the system that allow honest people to be hurt. Honestly I don't understand why fixing those things isn't the biggest priority. Who cares about the word for the world. Get the shepherds some training in counceling. Work on communication skills before you set people over others. Make sure you equip these "shepherds" so they do not hurt others. Deal with harshness. These things should always be priority number 1.
Because here is the truth. Here is what makes me so angry. Here is what makes me want to hate.
I'm a strong person. Anyone who really knew me, knows that that is true. And I tell you I had to fight and claw and scratch to get my relationship with God back.

I honestly worry that when people go through an experience like this, when they are hurt and abused, when they are lost in the cracks, when they are run over by the bus heading to the kingdom, that they will never recover. I worry that they will spend the rest of thier lives hating God. That they will spend the rest of thier lives lost. That just tears me up inside. It kills me. I read so many posts here and see so much pain and so many people who hardly want to even believe in God anymore.

I watch as people leave the church, don't come to service for 6 months. And no one calls them. NO one checks in to see if they are OK. Everyone is so busy with the "new day" and building the kingdom, that they forget that without each other, there is no kingdom. There is no new day. When someone is not comming around, that is not the time to play politics, and wait for them to come to you, and play a power game, that is the time to RUN after them. To make sure they are OK. Because to be honest. Which church or which movement or which thing we are apart of. None of that matters. We come together for one simple reason. We love God. That's it. And we trust the people over us with that love. And for me, I guess I'd just rather see a greater emphasis put on being better stewards of that love. Because if someone comes into the fellowship, and decides to leave. The most important thing is that they leave with that love intact. It's not important which church someone wants to go to. We should not argue I am of the fellowship and I am of the Lutheran Church or this church or that. For in our hearts, the simplest truth, is that we all love God and Jesus Christ. But hopefully, you are learning to be aware of the hurts people suffer. Hopefully you are learning to be sensitive when people are going through major hurts and don't attend a church service for 6 months.

The greatest misfortune that we can ever allow is for someone to be lost to God because of our own lack of sensitivity and focus on the future instead of the present.

Well, I'm really not trying to bring a word like nobody's business. So I think I'll sum this up. All I want is for there to be peace for people. All of this arguing among us produces no fruit. That I can see. It gains us nothing. It is futile. If people want to vent and be angry and hate, I say let them. Love is patient love is kind. Just trust that God is at work, and that he will bring them back around. Atleast if they hate God, they are still communicating with Him. Doesn't he say, I'd rather you be hot or cold. If you feel people here are ice cold, allow them to be, God doesn't mind. Why should you?

In the end I will sum up with this point and walk out of here. I think what I have come to do here is finally done. If you ever really cared about me, be happy, for I have found God again. There is warmth in my heart that has been absent for far too long. Rejoice, for God is always good. I think you can take or leave whatver you want from this site. If you think it is all a bunch of crap, fine. If you think people need to just get over it, fine. If you think people are being hateful, fine. If you think they are exagerating about your church and drumming up false ideas, fine.

To be honest, it was never meant for you. It was meant for the angry people, fighting to find God again. Don't come here to interupt the process. Don't come with your ideas of how the process should work, and with critical words that others should "get a life" or "just move on." Come here to encourage them with words of peace and love. Especially you who still have the warmth of God in your heart. If you only feel anger and resentment and the desire to lash out in defense, seek God's love. He has an abundance.

Honestly, you should be happy to be visiting this site by choice. You should really fall on your knees and thank God that you have not lost your relationship to Him. I hope you never know what it feels like to be truely lost. Be thankful, and cheer them on. Your positive words and attitude will accomplish far more than negative ones. This I have learned. It is the model of our Lord Jesus Christ. Love is always the only intelligent answer to any situation. In the end, the race is long, and without each other, we are never going to make it.

(I apologize if the language in this next part offends anyone, I took it directly form the source, and please don't go taking it too seriously, and get all defensive, thinking I am trying to make some underhanded point about you.)

Ahem,
There's a passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

I been sayin' that **** for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never really questioned what it meant. I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a mother****er 'fore you popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some **** this mornin' made me think twice. Now I'm thinkin', it could mean you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. .45 here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness.

Or it could be you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish.

I'd like that.

But that **** ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men.

But I'm tryin' Ringo...

I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.

[Chad]

P.S. I don't want to in anyway downplay the serious points that have been made and are being made on this site about the various ways that the LWF has strayed from the truth and is straying as "just being anger and hate and a part of the process." There are real issues being brought up here, and for the hope of your own salvation, you should work them out with fear and trembling.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Chad, I very much identify with what you said. Your posts, as well as everyone else's here (both members and non-members), have been enlightening and healing. Just being able to talk and listen to discussion with people who have had the same experiences is so wonderful. I can understand the passion felt on both sides of the fence, and I love just being able to discuss things in the first place. As has been said, hurts have to be identified and voiced, problems and doubts expressed, before the healing can begin. This has been a wonderful forum for me. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to participate.

[anonymous]

I just wonder how much the emphesis is on the teachings of Gary and Marilyn Hargrave, and how much is on the old tapes of John Robert Stevens, what sort of balance is there now days. Do the Hargraves simply expound on the thousands of tapes in the library or do they come up with something origional?

[Larry Bobo]

Ezekiel 34 says, "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says; 'Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them. Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore O shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: 'I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.....

As one involved in the shepherding level, I was taught the best thing I could do for the sheep was to give myself to the upward flow. I did that in good faith and there were many under my watch that wandered away. That is something I am very sorry about now. Even while in the Walk, I made it a point to reach out to those having trouble - I did not think the problem could possibly be the doctrinal foundation - they just were not following the current word.

Now that the tables have turned, I see a much different picture. Many who have posted will know the exact feeling Chad expressed of being lost and feeling conditional love. After being so dependent in an unhealthy way on shepherding, it's even more devestating to be shunned. In some cases the shunning is more on an unconscious level - the lack of a real heart connection, phone calls aren't returned, activities stop or are initiated only by one party, all of a sudden your too busy etc. In other situations it's more deliberate and people are told to avoid contact from the pulpit.

My personal experience was during the most neediest time of my life there was not only no help but rejection. The relationships were not forever or unconditional like a family. As soon as you question, even sincerely, you are out of there. Genuine maturity is stable enough to handle questions without the need to reject -like a parent with a child. It is only by the grace of God I survived and learned a more healthy way to walk with Him.

In hindsight, it's now much easier to see errors in the Walk because there are good examples in other churches to contrast with. I hope those who read these posts will look beyond the wounded hearts and see that people are honestly trying to save others from going through the same experiences.

[ex-walkite]

Chad, Larry Bobo and others, have you considered the Assembly of God? After all, that is the denomination that JRS was in before he got into the Latter Rain.

[Larry Bobo]

Ex-Walkite,

Thanks for the recommendation. I've been attending a local non-denominational church for several years now that I really love. Many of my friends there have attended the Assemblies of God in the past. My parents attended the Assemblies for several years when they first left the Walk. I'm also involved in several mens Bible studies that have men from several churches and am involved with construction projects at churches other than my own.

I've never been exposed to a more wonderful situation for all ages - especially the young people. We are encouraged to relate to and be a blessing to other Christians. It's a common occurance to take an offering for another church's building program and to send guys to help with the work. We just broke ground on the largest church building in Colorado without any special offerings. The overhead is only a fraction of the offerings coming in and as a result millions of dollars are being channeled to missions and taking care of the poor. Many are involved in worldwide mission trips starting in their early teens and they are never the same the rest of their lives.

For example, here's a little excerpt from a recent trip to Mexico. "Ignite was the theme of our tour because we had sensed that God wanted to ignite a spirit of passion, and boldness into the people of Mexico. We knew that we were not just called to minister to the Mexican people, but to see that flame catch in our own lives as well. Many of our students had the opportunity to see a hurting world for the first time. But they did not just see it; they reached out and touched it. We held silent orphans, we watched the lame rise from their rusted wheelchairs, we looked into the eyes of a man seeing his first rays of sunlight - God enabled us to touch the people of Mexico in a powerful way."

My wife and I had the priviledge recently of working on a orphanage in Mexico and are scheduled to go back in May. We've heard stories of incredible healings like a baby born with no eyes and then God giving them eyes, people being raised from the dead on a regular basis and as a result whole communities turning to the Lord - just like New Testament times. God is doing many wonderful things in the earth right now. It should be celebrated together across denominational lines. We are all the Father's family.

[Chad]

I picked the last church we attended, and lets just say our experince there has been well documented. My wife picked the current church we attend. It is Presbyrterian. Like the church Larry mentioned there is an unblievable amount of activites and ability to find fellowship with people who are in similar walks of life as you. A small example is bible studies with singles, or other parents, or single parents, or whoever you are looking to share your life with. In addition to that there is tons of out reach to the community and to the world.

It is similar to the great ability for fellowship at a LWF summer camp, but instead of it being just two weeks a year, it is each and every week. And to be honest, there are many more acitivties and opportunites than you will find in a LWF summer camp, (father and son retreats, family picnics, camping trips, out reach trips, sporting activites, bible classes, ect ect ect.)I say that not to put down the Shiloh summer camp, but just as a point of reference for something that people who visit this site may be familiar with. A small church can be quaint, and it may fit your individual needs, but it does limit you ability for choices and opportunities by the fact that it is small.

For the most part LWF churches are relatively small, 50-100 members (shiloh, sepulveda, and san diego are larger), and the chance to fellowship with other churches does not happen all that often. Of course you get to know the other member better since it is a smaller family, and yet that closeness can breed a sort of claustraphobic tension from being around the same people over and over again. Sort of the way you get when you are on a road trip with your family. You love them, but the proximity can cause non issues, to become issues.

Of course some people do not like larger churches, 1000-2000 members, as they feel they are lost in the grand design. They try to create smaller groups like I mentioned before to combat this, but still it is not right for everyone. There are advantages and disadvantadges to everything. Obviously from my past experience the most important thing is the health of the church and the checks and balances and the focus of the teaching and the like.

On the whole, we have been very happy there with the people we have met and the various programs they offer for children too. My wife was not raised in the fellowship, as I was, and has thoroughly enjoyed the return to a healthy church. I think as long as everything is good and happy and we find good honest fellow believers there and a healthy atmosphere we will keep attending. If at some point they change the focus from serving god to serving man or something and it turns out to be a cult, then maybe I'll get to choose the next church. I don't see that happening, but if it does, I'll keep the AOG in mind. Thanks for the input.

[ex-walkite]

Chad and Larry, I am very glad to hear that you are involved in ministries. Actually, I would look at the whole experience with the Walk as simply one of the stops on the journey. You learned many things there and now you are applying them.

[X-walkite]

I don't know if I am ready to say that the Walk is a lost cause or a cult, I think it has some great people that are seeking the Lord, having been born and raised in this movement, tney feel a bit uncomfortable sticking their head out of the egg so to speak and checking out what the church on the other corner worships. After all, many of the younger ones have been indoctrinated all of their lives that "there be DRAGONS out there. I say break out of the egg and go out on a little field trip. I am sure many people out in your neighborhoods would love to meet you, you know they have been watching you for years.

[Verdict]

In response to that wish,

I hope you'll be glad to know that there is quite a bit more outreach and outside-relating going on in the Walk today. I agree that we have been too self-confined. Things are constantly changing....for the better : )

[Chad]

The word "rhema" is the greek word that translates to "the word" that THE LIVING WORD is based on.

Christian Sorcery

"John Robert Stevens is distinct among all other adherents of the rhema (The Word) in that he was the first one to openly acknowledge and explore the occult potential of that doctrine. In fact, it was at the height of one of the most divisive controversies in Pentecostal history--the Latter Rain Movement of 1948(10)--that he inaugurated The Walk which, from its inception in 1950 onward, was meant to be distinguished from everything prior to it as the next progressive step of revelation.(11) As part of his new revelational system, Stevens began training his disciples in a &raquo;school of the prophets&laquo; to enable them to manipulate the spirit realm by their word of faith, an application of the rhema.

In a magical/occult worldview, words are discrete entities that have power that corresponds to their kind and use. When spoken according to certain formulas (spells) by those with gnosis (knowledge), it is believed those words have creative power to affect both the spiritual and physical spheres of existence.(12) Similarly, the person who possessed that gnosis--who could speak the words of power--was known in the Old Testament as a seer-prophet. It is more than coincidence, then, that that is precisely the ministry emphasized among adherents of The Walk.

A classic Old Testament case of the seer-prophet ministry is that of Balaam (Numbers 22:1-24:25). In the ancient biblical world, one special man was universally regarded as having the power to bless or curse anything, including the nation of Israel. Balaam is the prototype of the magus, the person who can bend time and space according to his will through his secret supernatural wisdom.(13) As the "Apostle of the Kingdom," Stevens has adopted that role. Both he and his followers believe he has the power to bless or curse, judge or forgive anyone on earth, including institutions and governments. Ex-members have testified during private interviews that Stevens used that supposed power to pray for the deaths of Robert Kennedy and David Rockefeller and claimed that his power was effective in the case of the former. Not even a strained definition of biblical apostolic authority or prophecy includes that type of prayer. Rather, such prayers are what is traditionally known as sorcery, or witchcraft, which I have defined elsewhere as:

...the use of magic and/or divination for the purpose of knowing or controlling the course of nature, events, or the lives of others by means of a supernatural agency (i.e., a demon) Therefore, witchcraft is the casting of spells (words of power) with occult wisdom (gnosis) by the power of demons.(14)

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 gives the basic criterion for prophesying in the name of the Lord; namely, whether or not the prophecy comes true. If it does, it is from God. That passage must be balanced, however, by the counsel in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 that any prophecy--including dreams, signs, or visions--that does come to pass, but which leads to the worship of other gods (thus directly weakening and breaking the first three commandments), is not from God even though it did come true. It is interesting and crucial to note further that the criterion in Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is in direct relationship to the forbidding of pagan practices by the people of God.

Unfortunately, those proscriptions have not checked The Walk's advocates of the rhema. To them the rhema is at least equal in authority to the logos {Scripture). Many even believe the logos cannot be properly understood without the rhema. That has the added effect of making the rhema greater than the logos. Such a development is fully foreseen in the New Testament {for example, 1 John 4:1-3). Pseudo-Christian prophets were prophesying in the name of Jesus, but their doctrines were clearly divorced from the authoritative doctrines revealed by the Apostles. Thus, John sets up a criterion {based on the Deuteronomy texts) for the New Testament Church. Any prophecy that contradicts the Apostles' testimony to Jesus is from the spirit of antichrist.

Furthermore, the doctrine of the rhema parallels the false promise of the serpent to Eve in the Garden of Eden. If Eve would only eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, she would receive the occult gnosis and be equal with God (Genesis 3:1-6). The rhema establishes humanity's godhood by divorcing them from their servant-creature position, raising them to full autonomy, and breaks the first three of the Ten Commandments. The false inspiration from the serpent (outside the clearly revealed word of God to Adam in Genesis 2:16-17) sets the spiritual dynamics of disobedience into motion, leaving Adam and Eve to the temporary delusion of their own autonomous ethical system. That brings us to the crux of our analysis: the contrast between servanthood, as exemplified in Jesus' life on earth, and sorcery, as exemplified in the doctrine of the rhema. In fact, the distinction between the two clearly defines orthodoxy from heterodoxy, true Christianity from antichrist Christianity.

Through gnosis a sorcerer is able to cast spells, words of power, that bind spirits to serve the purposes of his or her will. Here the relationship between humanity and spirits is clear: the human will plays the role of God, the spirits play the role of servant. The ideology behind Christian-oriented sorcery is based on the creative power of God's word, the logos, as revealed in the Genesis creation account: God spoke through his wisdom and brought things into existence. The Walk's rhema is but a subtle attempt to introduce classical sorcery into Christianity by assuming powers to create, both spiritually and physically, one's own realities.

When human will intentionally takes the place of God's revealed will in Christian affairs, the Holy Spirit is usurped. The prophet Samuel told King Saul that type of rebellion was equivalent to witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:23). That rebellion is fully manifested in The Walk, where Stevens is believed to have a blank check from God, (Like Marilyn supposedly has now) regardless of whether he uses his authority for good or evil. (It is commonly believed in the charismatic movement that the gifts of God are given permanently, which is a misreading of Romans 11:29.) It is also believed that Stevens has the power to transfer his authority, by the laying on of hands, to whosoever he chooses (Marilyn for example). Thus, any declaration made by him in the name of the spirit he allegedly commands (in the name of Jesus) gives him that Balaamite power.

Such is not the case in true Christian spirituality, as is shown in such passages as John 5:19 where Jesus reveals that even though he is equal with God, he (as a man) has submitted his will to doing the will of God--a fact made even more clear in his final agony in Gethsemane (see Matthew 26:36-46; Mark 14:32-42; and Luke 22:39-46). That clearly applies to use of the charisms of the Holy Spirit as well. When the Spirit descended at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), the Apostles and disciples spoke "as the Spirit gave them utterance." Nowhere is any indication given that God's people have been given the authority to command spirits at their own will. In fact, the Epistle of James states that the reason much of what people pray for does not come to pass (regardless of whether or not it is prayed for in faith) is because &raquo;ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts&laquo; (James 4:3). That verse clearly balances James' previous statement that any prayer will be answered if it is prayed without any doubt (James 1:5-6): Even Jesus' statement that anything asked for in his name will be answered (John 14:14) is put into context in 1 John 5:14: "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he heareth us."

The New Testament is clear: the Holy Spirit's will is supreme in the Church (John 16:7-11). How can he accomplish his goals if the Church, which he is supposed to enlighten and empower, usurps his authority? There is no true role for the Church outside of the will of the Holy Spirit. Usurping his will leads only to false Christianity.

That is why Simon Magus is so harshly treated by the Apostle Peter in Acts 8:18.24. Magus tries to buy the power to give the Holy Spirit, by the laying on of hands, to whosoever he wills. The New Testament is clear: God is the master, we are the servants. Anything that usurps that hierarchy is sorcery."


What if one day you woke up and realized that while you thought you had been on the side of God, and that you were a follower of Christ, you were really on the side of Satan and a follower of the anti-christ? That you thought you were speaking the word, but really you had just been taught to practice sorcery. Everywhere you look, there are clear and specific warning not to practice what the fellowship embraces whole heartedly. There area clear signs that the system is cultlike.

Maybe you guys should start listening to Morpheus. I'm starting to become afraid for you. Whoa to you is right. I think I'll go repent for ever having dabbled in it myself. Whoa to me.

From "The Occult Metaphysics of John Robert Stevens" by Woodrow Nichols. You can read the whole thing yourself at:

http://www.dci.dk/da/php/forfatter_visning.php?forfatter=Woodrow%20Nichols

Whoa.

[XPineConeX]

"I would look at the whole experience with the Walk as simply one of the stops on the journey. You learned many things there and now you are applying them."

I agree, this is the way I am looking at my involvement with the LWF.

[Charliethreedogs]

I can see how JRS could command so much attention and the following, that guy was very charasmatic. I can't grasp how Gary Hargrave and Marilyn can, and of course, they don't have near the following as Stevens. When I went out to California after the death of JRS, I thought there would be an "apostolic company" ready to step in and lead the church, to become that "movement without leaders" but instead, all that was there was Marilyn and a bunch of yes men who were going to "repent until they got a revelation of her." Well, so much for that.

[Anonymous]

Nobody is the same as they were over 20 years ago when John died. Maybe some of you are still upset with him for not entering into resurection life. You should visit a Living Word church now days and see if you like it, don't judge them by what they were like when you were involved in them. Maybe the people have learned something.

[Anonymous]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Anonymous]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[Anonymous]

Actually I think "Walk of Life" by Dire Straits is about John and that Walk. I think the words are "down in the tunnel trying to make it to pray". Some of you older codgers remember the rumor of the tunnel at Shiloh. I can't remember what they thought went on in the tunnel, maybe we were growing magic mushrooms or something.

[Anonymous]

Marilyn is to John Robert Stevens what Yoko Ono was to John Lennon.

[Anonymous]

may Marilyn is to the Walk what Yoko Ono is to the Beatles.

[Anonymous]

Did you hear the story of the dude that crawled under a bathroom stall while JRS was trying to take a dump and this airhead wanted John to bless him right then and there?

[Anonymous]

The thing I notice in all of this, the Walk was criticized in the '80s because they were "too exclusive." Now, they are criticized when they open their doors and let anybody in, you say "they are selective in the teachings they show the public." Maybe they know that everything that John Stevens brought was not necessarily a rhema word from God, so they are selective about what they show. JRS was a human being that was forced by the followers in a position that he constantly warned them about, that it was not right. Could he have done something more about it? Maybe, maybe not, because what I witnessed is that no matter what the dude did, they would still worship him, there would still be people crawling under the bathroom stall asking to be blessed, there would still be someone sticking a microphone in front of him every time he burped or asked for another porkchop.

[Anonymous]

That is a lot of money 10 years ago, and I would think that it safe to assume that they are probably up to $100,000 each now. That is a lot of money. I wonder if I can possibly swing getting supporteres to pay me that kind of money. I'm in the wrong buisiness.

[Anonymous]

I was a member of the Living Word Fellowship from about 1977 until about 1984. In that 7 years, I ended up having a local walk church in my own house, I was the supposed overseer of that church, and I was recognized as one of the regional overseers. I got that "commision" because of my own personality, I had friends and those friends laid hands on me and "commisioned" me. I didn't have any education at all to qualify me for such a job. It is that easy to become a Living Word Pastor.

[Anonymous]

By the way, to add to the previous post from 2:44 pm, I also was considered the pastor of this local church at Shiloh and ComWest, I was considered a pastor at Shiloh when I was there and at the meetings at the Valley Church when John died. I was not qualified to be a pastor then nor am I qualified to be a pastor now.

[Anonymous]

Who are the current "apostles" of the Living Word. I probably know many of them.

[Ex-Walkite]

I would like to hear the list myself, Anonymous, I have heard something about there being 12 of them, but I may have heard that wrong. It seemd to me that damnd near everybody had a word over their lives to be an apostle when I was in the walk. Probably a few dogs and cats with commisions to be apostles or prophets. It looks like the walk has toned it down some though from looking at the websites, looks like the weed and alcohol is not such a part of things now, and they have more or less become a sort of Charismatic church.

[ex-walkite]

You know, looking at the money that Gary and Marilyn make, I probably could of knocked down some money myself had I stayed. Most of the pastors didn't get paid when I was one, just didn't even think about it. Of course it was a little church.

[ex-walkite]

We are getting more posts than any other cult, even more than Charles Manson. We must be doing something right. I had forgotton how much fun it could be to be in a cult. Maybe I will head to Shiloh, I haven't been there in years. That is one of the things that John Stevens can be acredited with, I think it would not have had the interest or the numbers in the walk to pay for it without him. I think that he still is the main attraction of the walk.

[Anonymous]

In the 80's the apostles were

John Miller
Dan Staton
Mike Schmerhorn
Ed Forbes
Ted Shofee
Dick Loyd
Rick Holbrook
Scott Mcdonald
Don Perry
Matt Walko (not positive)
Bill Maybe
Bob Barton

These people are no longer Apostles

Dan Staton
Mike Schmerhorn
Don Perry
Ted Shofee
Bob Barton
Bill Maybe

in the 90s Bob Raba became a part of the Apostolic company and the shepherd of Shiloh. Within the decade he was out of APCO.

Frank Andros replaced him as shepherd of Shiloh and became a member of APCO I believe, not terribly sure. Frank is no longer shepherd of Shiloh and no longer a member of APCO, I believe, not sure.

I believe that Phyllis, Bill Maybe's wife still functions as a part of that APCO (APostolic COmpany) too.

In the 90's Silas Esteves from Brazil was added to the list.

I also think that Dan Statton's old wife is still a part of the APCO.

Also Marilyn has said that her son, Rick, his also a part of the Apostolic fathering ministry. Or that the west coast based Apostles submit to him, or something along the lines of him being higher than a regualr Apostle. Family perks I guess, not sure. HE was set out of being an apostle, after he cheated on his wife and got involved with one of the girls in the church, but then about a month or two later he was set in again.

In recent times, I'm not sure they still put emphasis on who is, or who is not an apostle. Even Gary and Marilyn may have realized that going around saying so and so is an apostle kind of makes them sound like a cult. Especially when there is such high turnover of apostles. about 50% of the people set in as apostles are no longer apostles for whatever reason.

John Sayer is over all of the younger generation in the whole fellowship and the Shepherd of the Falmer Lake facility, though I do not know if they have ever set him in as an apostle.

Dave Boney, formely head of the construction department in Shiloh, is supposedly who Gary and Marilyn submit to. I guess they mow his lawn and ask him if they can go on vacation and stuff. Not sure what that really entails. Since they are the Apostolic fathering ministry. And he is thier "shepherd" you would think he was an apostle or the apostolic fathering-fathering ministry. Something like that. Not too sure. Again I'm not sure they've come out and given him a title.

And by the way. In the new testament, I know there were apostles. But was anyone out there shepherding all of them? I mean is this notion of an Apostolic fathering ministry scriptural at all, or is it something Gary and Marilyn invented to keep themselves at the top. I never really understood where that title came from. Perhaps someone can help me out with that?

(Message edited by admin on April 11, 2005)

[Anonymous]

"We are getting more posts than any other cult, even more than Charles Manson. We must be doing something right."

That is a testament to Gary Hargrave's skill at coming up with self-fulfilling prophecies to scare people into staying and making up explanations that help his followers become bitter to those who leave and think that those who leave are turning from God when they are really turning to God.

[Morpheus]

People have been kept silent far too long. The truth is finally getting out, and people who have suffered from abuse for many years and not understood why they hurt so much are finally getting relief.

You are not crazy. You lived in an "atmosphere" of deception. Do you remember how Gary and Marilyn wanted to create an "atmosphere"? The only other people that I know of that worry so much about atmosphere is Hollywood. Sensation over substance.

May God remove the deception of the theobabble that is The Walk.

Reminds me of that song from The Walk:
<BLOCKQUOTE>"I have kept silent, for a long, long time.
I have kept still and restrained myself.
Now like a woman in labor will I groan,
I will both gasp and pant;
I'll lay waste the mountains."
The Lord will go forth like a warrior.
He'll arouse His zeal liek a man of war.
He'll utter a shout, yes, He'll raise a war cry.
He will prevail against His enemies!
He will prevail against His enemies!</BLOCKQUOTE>
May God receive all the glory, and may all creation humbly praise Him alone.

[Ted Turney]

Sensation over substance?

This whole forum has no substance anymore.
Bye to you all!

If you're still undecided about us, or even if you have an opinion either way, please visit http://www.thelivingword.org

I think things are stated pretty fairly and accurately in the "what we believe" sections. If you want to know more, call us! We're not hiding anything, and we're certainly not ashamed of anything. If it sounds like your cup of tea, despite all this inconclusive controversy, please come by some time.

To my "walk-ite" peers, I don't highly suggest coming back here to argue. If people really want to give us a chance, they will. And those who don't certainly don't seem to want to change their mind anytime soon. And that's fine.

Farewell. Have a peaceful night / rest of your life!

[Morpheus]

Ok, Ted, let's look at your mission statement:

AND THIS, WE WILL DO

In spirit, mind, and body, with all that we have, we shall seek, learn, teach and live God's word and principles by assembling together to become, to give of ourselves and to worship the Lord our God, as a free-willed, governed body of people. In faith, we will pursue the truth as a way to restore God's principles to the earth and hasten Christ's return.

First of all, how else can you live other than in spirit, mind, and body? So you're saying with 100% that they're going to "seek", "learn", "teach", and "live" God's Word. Hmmm. What Word are you seeking? You guys seem to be pretty good at ignoring the Bible. What Word are you learning? They only Word they taught me was mostly interpretations and a lie made up by John Robert Stevens and Gary and Marilyn Hargrave. The "word" that you teach is the Word of man that does not last. And the word that you live does not bear fruit. Read the testamonies.

Are you really living God's principles? The last time I checked, you are claiming freedom whenever you do something that the Bible says not to. The Bible says not to swear or use coarse language. But you do. The Bible says not listen to false teachings, but you do. The Bible says to feed the poor and care for the lost, but you don't. And you teach others not to. You are hypocrites, like the pharisees of Jesus' time. And those who are seeking the Truth are those who cannot be controlled, so you squash them.

What does "free-willed", "governed" body of people mean? Gary is always talking about how your will must be submitted to your shepherd, and that it is bad. Gary and Marilyn govern others in a model that is not "New Testament."

God's principles... Shouldn't that be God's commandments? God's principles are the fact that He is holy and we are sinful. We need a savior, Jesus. God's principles don't need help, other than you should really be following his <U>commandments</U>, including Thou shall not murder. God did not intend for parents to murder their children, yet The Walk advocates abortion. Not outwardly, but many have been told by shepherds to have one. Anyone want to speak to that? The truth, please.

"Hasten Christ's return": Ok. Wow. You didn't read it in the Bible, so you'll probably ignore it here, too, but here goes. Want to "hasten" Christ's return? Share the gospel. Feed the poor. Care for your neighbor. Share Christ's love with the world.

We must encourage, generate and present creativity; assist in the development of God's people and administer all assets entrusted to us, both spiritual and temporal. In order to further the Word of God, we, as good stewards, will house, uphold, and serve those who boldly proclaim and minister a living word given by the Holy Spirit. We shall also preserve, publish, and distribute the works thus created.

"We must encourage, generate and present creativity"? What does that mean? God creates, we do. Man was made to worship God. This almost sounds like an art class here.

"Assist in the development of God's people" by controlling and manipulating them. Don't forget that.

"administer all assets entrusted to us, both spiritual and temporal"
There are a lot of people on here that have trusted or been entrusted (by being born into the church) but have come away really hurt. Even some of your leaders really don't know what they believe because it changes from week to week. If people are dying in your church and going to hell because they don't have a personal relationship with Jesus, then you have failed.

"In order to further the Word of God, we, as good stewards, will house, uphold, and serve those who boldly proclaim and minister a living word given by the Holy Spirit." This explains your dedication and devotion to Gary and Marilyn Hargrave. You are doing this. Except for the last part where you blaspheme the Holy Spirit by claiming that it gave you your lie.

"We shall also preserve, publish, and distribute the works thus created." You preserve, but are very limited and selective when it comes to publishing and distributing the works made by man. I'm not complaining about this. It's a good thing. The world has enough lies out there without you publishing another book of Mormon. But in your case, it would be huge because there is just so much of it. And it confuses people when they study it. If you were really publishing and distributing it, your website would be huge. But it is not, because you use your "word" to control people.

We will endeavor to seek out those who cry out to know, hear and understand the voice of the Lord, and provide a nurturing haven for them. And with all of this, we shall promote fulfilling, honest and loving family relationships by holding Christ's Lordship at the center of our families, friendships and activities, daily living and walking in the abundant life contained in the Word and its principles.

"We will endeavor to seek out those who cry out to know, hear and understand the voice of the Lord" because they are really searching but can be manipulated and controlled. The sower and the seed parable talks about you.

"provide a nurturing haven for them" unless they start to question or really try to grow. Then you belittle them and chop their legs out from underneath them.

"we shall promote fulfilling, honest and loving family relationships by holding Christ's Lordship at the center of our families"
By telling people who they can and cannot marry? By telling people when to divorce? By putting your church above their personal lives? Christ did not come to push His lordship nor establish His kingdom at the expense of others. He came to show His great love for everyone. Please, be honest. Nothing is fulfilling without the Love of Jesus and by do his commandments.

"daily living and walking in the abundant life contained in the Word and its principles"
Whose word? Gary's? John's? Dave Boney's? Daily living at Shiloh? How about daily living in Harlem where people need Jesus? Why the constant "holy huddle"? Where are you teaching people to love others, on a daily basis? You teach them legalism and try to distill God's power into principles that can be manipulated for your whims and your mistaken concept of what should be.

Ted, if you were to die today, are you 100% certain that you will go to heaven? Did you know that it's possible to know for sure?

Ted, if you were to die today, and God asked you, "Why should I let you into heaven?" what would your response be?

[EX-walkite]

I think apostles are set in by Jesus Christ Himself. I never have heard of an apostle being fired. LOL

[ex-walkite]

Well, I could talk about one of the apostolic company saying he "didn't know this Jesus dude, I knew John," at the shepherds meeting at the Valley Church not long after John died, certainly before the funeral. Perhaps I would have to tell of the time that I, along with another pastor took the money that was made in the kingdom buisiness that day and drank beer with it,,,whoops, maybe I should have kept that one secret...Here is the thing, that one of the list of apostles said what he said in the heat of the moment, that didn't bother me as much as all the "that's rights" coming back from the flock.

I am happy to see that this church is still around, and that it is showing some of the signs of becoming just another charismatic church. That is far less harmless than what it could be, a very dangerous self decieved cult.

[ex-walkite]

We need to all get together and start a movement. We could call it the X-WALK, for people that blew out after JRS died, and didn't come back from the dead. I could be the chief apostle.

[Marillum]

Noooo!!!! The walkses is mine. MINE!!!
John gaves it to us. To us!!! We HATES those who tries to takes it from us. We hates you. We hates you ALL!!! Filthy little blowoutsees.

He gaves it to us out of his dead hands we took it. Not to you, to us. We is the new Apostlesees. Ours it is. Ours!!! Ours by right! Ours by law. You can't haveses it. We earned it. We owns it. It is ours. OURS!!!! Filthy stupid blowoutsees.

They can't have you, can they precious. No, no, no! They can't have the precious. You loves us don't you precious. You are ours, our cultses, our walkses. Our precioussssssssss.

[Anonymous]

This would be a great forum to write some words, just type them in and there they are, out for the whole world to see.

[XPineConeX]

Ex-Walkite, The Walk is currently less harmful than it was in the 1970s, but it is still not totally healthy.

"People have been kept silent far too long. The truth is finally getting out, and people who have suffered from abuse for many years and not understood why they hurt so much are finally getting relief."

This is a fantastic thing. I hope everyone finds healing.

"May God remove the deception of the theobabble that is The Walk."

I am praying that the hold this theobabble has on my family and friends is broken, in the name of the Lord. They have been controlled by it for way too long.

[For Chad]

Hey, XPineConeX here.

This is for Chad and other people who wanted to read the ~250 page report written in 1980 about the Walk and JRS by Woodrow Nichols, who is associated with the Spiritual Counterfeits Project.

Here is link to the Spiritual Counterfeits Project:

http://www.scp-inc.org/

Click on the link that says Information on the left side of the page. This will bring up the address and phone number of the people who can get you this report.

You have to call from 9 AM-12 PM Pacific Coastal Time on Monday, Wednesday, of Friday to talk to someone, otherwise leave a message with a contact number and they will return your call.

Ask for the COTLW/JRS Woodrow Nichols Report. They have to make copies of it, and it costs about $30 with shipping.

If you are even slightly interested in these threads, you will find the Woodrow Nichols report highly interesting!

[ExWalkite]

XPineConeX I hope that your family and youself are healed completely and that you find the experience with the Lord that you have been seeking. My prayers are with all of you. As you can probably tell by some of my posts, I still have some respect for the old man, JRS had some problems though, and I know that the groupies that followed him around and agreed to every passing thought did not do him or us any good. There are some legitimate principles that JRS hit on, but it takes someone smarter than me to figure out which is good and glean them, and discard the refuge. I don't know that I would have done any better if I had been in the same position. There is a certain innocence the JRS had about him, he sought to know with such a drive, I think if anything, perhaps he drank from too many streams. I still think that song by Dire Straits, WALK OF LIFE is about JRS. Also, another question that has been bugging me for over 20 years, was that the lady that played Margarete Hoolihan on Mash playing the piano at the Valley Church at the shepherds meeting after John died?

[Chad]

Ex-walkite
The only thing I think of, when people say that he didn't want to be in the spotlight is this. If he didn't wnat to be in the spotlight, why did he dub himself, "The apostle to the Kingdom." I mean, when you start telling everyone that you are basically the most important person born since Jesus, you are going to be put in the spotlight. To say that that is not what he wanted, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It may have been too much for him, all the celebrity and everything, but he definately played a part in creating himself into the center of attention. Also telling everyone that Jesus returned, from his 2000 year absence fro mearth, just to meet him also plays into that. It seems that there are basically three explanation that fall into three separate categories: Spiritual, mental, psychological.

Number 1 (Spiritual). It all really happened, John was who he said he was and Jesus really did meet him face to face. Though it seems he copied his word from the latter rain, he did not, it was all based on direct revelation. He really had the visions he said he had, and he really was transported to the kingdom. John really did take down satan. John really is still going to return to the Earth as the first person with ressurection life.

Number 2. (Mental) John knowing fabricated who he was, and that he had been called personally by Jesus, the way he fabricated his word from the latter rain, and lied about the doctorate he had, in a conscious effort to get people to believe something that he knew was untrue.

Number 3. (Psychological) John had a mental illness, perhaps Schizophrenia. (Not sure what illness really would fit the case.) But in this scenario you would call his seeing Jesus and his visions as something he truely believed that he experienced, and his lofty spiritual view of himself as an obvious dellusion. The fact that he was raised in severe poverty would strengthen this case, as he was overcompensating for a deflated self image and self worth by trying to inflate himself as a grand historical person. You could also say that his militant view of a "war" over the word, and "percieved spiritual warfare" and constant "satanic attacks" was a sign of irrational paranoia.

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[Ted Turney]

For anyone interested in TLWF,

A new CD recording of our worship can be found here:
http://www.thelivingword.org/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=TLWS&amp;Product_Co de=RSR-1205-1&amp;Category_Code=MC

Love us or hate us, I think our worship speaks for itself. Enjoy!

[Morpheus]

Worship is not just about music. It's about the fruit of your lives. It's how you care for others. It's how you care for those who are unlovely. It's the poor stranger that you show kindness to, it's the hungry person that you feed and share the Gospel with, it's the sick child that you visit in the hospital, it's the way that you clothe yourself in righteousness.

A CD with beautiful music and nice words is nothing more than a prayer wheel to God.

[Ted Turney]

If I had a DVD of that, I would offer it to you as well. I don't disagree with you, but that CD is just about the actual music-to-the-Lord part of worship. If you heard it, I think you'd understand my resistance to calling it "beautiful music and nice words"

There are already non-TLWF congregations across the United States who are exploring deeper forms of worship in response to hearing this CD.

[Xwalkite (209.86.130.181)]

That's true Ted Turney about worship changing in many churches through out America. Living Word Fellowship was one of the very first on singing in the Spirit. There are a lot of good things about Living Word that I think we can agree on. I left before the current leadership took hold, but my leaving then does not make me in any way feel that there is necessarily disagreement with Gary and Marilyn Hargrave. I have some disagreement with them on some of the things that I have heard about, that does not make them my enemy. I am about to leave a church it appears for no other reason than the thrill being gone, but I am still waiting on the Lord about that one. I think writing on this board has made me miss the excitment of the Living Word.

[your conscience (4.12.214.185)]

Morp: Been reading some of your posts -- My, for an intellectual elite, you aren't very prudent or provocative. You sound like an agitator - trying to stir up interest-in and support for your "mental" emotional disturbance. Slandering LWF - shame on you. You are under the impression that your convulsive struggle is for a favorable cause (aka healing-venting). This is nothing more than propagandizing.

[Anonymous (67.22.23.97)]

Slander is essentially lying. Can you name anything that Morpheus has said that is slanderous? Just because you don't like it doesn't make it slander. And there have been quite a few people that have stated that this was a wonderful forum for them to heal and vent. Just because it doesn't do the same for you in no way diminishes this fact.

[Mark (24.31.53.193)]

I think a good portion of people speak well of this forum because it justifies a certain deception they are under.

[Chad (67.21.25.17)]

Wow Mark. That is some amazing logic. Do you have any scriptures or evidence or research or personal knowledge of the people you are referring to or anything at all to base this on? Or is this only based on your brain? By that rationale you can go through your entire life and pick and choose who is and who is not under deception based on whether or not thier outlook on life conflicts with your own.

Boy doesn't that make it easy to be on the side of God. Any time anyone says anything that conflicts with you or your approach to God, you can just say they are under deception, or better yet under a spirit.

Now here's a real kick in the ass Mark. It may be that they are under deception. Or it may be that you are under deception. I've been on both sides of the fence. And from both sides it appears that the others are completely under deception. I'm sure Jon, Larry, Dena, Justin, Morpheus, and the other anonymous posters would agree. I'm sure that when they were "sold" on the fellowship, they would have agreed with you whole heartedly and said that anyone here is under deception. Now they feel that it is you who are under deception. So who is right?

Well, surely God has given us some way to tell. There has to be some way besides sitting in a corner in the dark and "waiting on god" until you see purple in your mind and your fingers get red and splotchy and you feel some pressure at the male side of "the doors of your mind" and a tingle in your right big toe. There has to be some way besides basing your opinion on those who agree with you, and have a vested interest in agreeing with you, whether they are members of the fellowship or ex-members. There has to be some way to illuminate your life and see if you are under deception that does not make you rely soley on the perception of your own brain and the counscel of fallible humans. Again this is important for member and ex-members alike.

What do the sciptures say? Do the scriptures condone your beliefs or do they expose them as deception? When I was in the fellowship I relied on what John Robert Stevens had said and what Gary Hargrave had said and what my shepherd had said. I looked for answers in the this weeks and the tapes. If they said x was the right way, x was the right way. That's all there was to it. Every time I heard a word from John or Gary I did not search the scriptures to see if what Gary and John taught was true. I blindly gave them allegiance and assumed that because they wre John and gary what they said was true. Everyone else did to. After Gary or John speak a "word" there are always those jumping up to prophecy how true it is, yet they have not searched the scriptures until those scriptures bore witness. The Living Word Fellowship conditions people to agree right now,(right now Jehovah! AMEN! THAT'S RIGHT!) and worry about the validity never.

Now I think for myself. Does that make me arrogant or does it make me responsible? Now I illuminate my life according to the scriptures and the sacrifice and teachings of Jesus Christ. I do not give up responsibility for my own life by giving complete trust to men who are not God. I do not let humans assure me of things heavenly. I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. From what I have seen, those scriptures and teachings expose the countless layers of deception that fill the Living Word Fellowship like the sticky webs of a spider's nest.

By the way. Just to add to what the anonymous poster said. Healing and venting are only a very small part of what's gone on here. The largest part is exposing the myriad of scriptural violations of God and Jesus Christ, and the psychological violations of mind control that run rampant in the Living Word Fellowship. Violations that have been well documented, and that the current members still have no answer for. Well, besides weakly saying that those who point them out are under decpetion or rudely attacking thier character. I have yet to see any current members show any strength or knowledge in the scriptures. When they are at a loss for words they become vulgar, or they resort to screaming like children that "The word is true!"

Whose word? I lean on the word of God, Jesus Christ, and on the scriptures that testify of Him. I do not supplement Him with a "new word" spoken by fallible and sinful men, a "new word" that is repeatedly rebuked by the teachings of Jesus Christ and those same scriptures. But based on what I have read cleary printed in black and white in the bible, there are warnings after warnings after warnings that cleary illuminate that any "new word" or "new messenger" that comes and contradicts the scriptures and the teachings of Jesus Christ should be seen as the anti-christ and the voice of true deception.

So I ask you Mark, what word do you lean upon?

[ExWalkite (209.86.128.102)]

There was a time when the Walk was certainly cut off from mainstream Christianity. It seems like that is being changed now, but one thing that will not stand the scrutiny of being involved in Cbristianity is this designated submission to someone, in fact, that is problems bound to happen. I remember when Bill Maybee said he would "repent until he got a revelation" of Marilyn. Of course, there was nothing else for him to do, she owned the whole thing, (community property) and Hargrave had the answer, some of us decided it was a lost cause and didn't hang around. I bet some of the people in Jim Jones' cult "repented till they got the revelation" too.

[X (209.86.128.158)]

I have a friend that I regard as a valuable asset in issues of the Bible and a spiritual walk, but I know that he is tainted to a degree because he thinks that anything and everything that pops into his mind is the "mind of God." This friend is the one that actually got me involved in the Living Word to begin with. Now I don't discount what he says, I just take it with a grain of salt. I think that is the way that we should relate to everyone. There is a reason that "everything must be confirmed by one or two witnesses." And that does not mean a bunch of yes men shouting "that's right" no matter what you say.

[Xwalkite (209.86.128.158)]

I am very curious, how do they determine who is a part of the Apostolic Company? In other words, what are the qualifications for being an Apostle? Do they have to be set in directly by the Lord? It seems to me that was the claim that John Robert Stevens made for his apostleship...

[XWalkite (209.86.128.158)]

One other question: How much money do the members of the Apostolic Company knock make? What about Pastors of local churches, how much do they make these days? I don't think any pastors of local churches made a salary when I was in the Walk.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Chad,

I agree that these forums are great place to vent and heal. However, you are not healing. You are raging. You have a vendetta. Sounds like someone out to write a book with no other intent than to hurt and execute vengence. You asked if you are being arrogant or responsible. It is obvious that you are arrogant.

I have one word for you:

Jude:11-13
...these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroy.

Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts whehn they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darknes has been reserved forever.

Jude 16-19
These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts. They speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of Spirit.

[Anonymous (65.19.174.35)]

That has to be the most convoluted collection of scriptures I have ever seen. What are you even trying to say?

Again with the character attacks...

Joe you sound like someone who is parroting something you have heard grown-ups talk about.

[Evin (24.31.53.193)]

Anonymous,

I think Joe's scriptural references are more valid than the slews of "only Jesus can save you, not a man representing him" twisters.

And if you're going to whine about character attacks, don't call Joe a parrot. Even a parrot can list their own first name...

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Anonymous (65.19.174.35)

I must have touched a nerve? Anyone can slander and say what they want about a church and its ministries.... However, it is interesting how one gets twisted when the attacker is attacked.

What you minister out returns "heaped up shaken down and running over." Simple principle. One wants to slander and attack, then he can accept the backwash of the same abuse.

>>Joe you sound like someone who is parroting something you have heard grown-ups talk about.<<

Actually, I am the grown-up and I'm talking about it.

[Justin (67.22.23.97)]

It seems to me that Joe's scripture quotation argues more against LWF than for it.

[Justin (67.22.23.97)]

Slander (n.): (1) Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
(2) A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Slander is not a synonym for a difference in opinion, or even a difference in interpretation of the facts. It has to be something false that is injurious to a person's reputation. Specifically, what has been said that is slanderous?

[Justin (67.22.23.97)]

Evin,

"I think Joe's scriptural references are more valid than the slews of "only Jesus can save you, not a man representing him" twisters."

Please elaborate. In my understanding, "only Jesus can save you, not a man representing him" is a very true statement. Any "twisters" would be something saying otherwise. Did I interpret what you are saying correctly?

[Anonymous (207.69.90.220)]

Check out this website and the churches that are listed on the left side of the site, there are dozens of Latter Rain churches there. I am wondering about the validity of Latter Rain theology. http://latter-rain.com/

[Anonymous (65.19.174.35)]

"However, it is interesting how one gets twisted when the attacker is attacked."

"What you minister out returns "heaped up shaken down and running over." Simple principle. One wants to slander and attack, then he can accept the backwash of the same abuse."

Perhaps it should be called the "Church of the Living Eye for an Eye."

I am obviously not as wise about God as you. And I am not a leader in a church. But I do read the bible, and try to lead a good life, and I do know some scriptures too.

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[1] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[2] and pray for those who persecute you.

Luke 6:27
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Romans 12:19
"Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[1] says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[2] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:9
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.


Proverbs 25:21
If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the LORD will reward you.

1 John 2:8
Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[1] to make him stumble.

Ephesians 4:1
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

1 Corinthians 13:1

If I speak in the tongues[1] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[2] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Are those scriptures not in your bible?

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Anonymous (65.19.174.35)

>Are those scriptures not in your bible?<

Yup!

[XPineConeX (205.188.209.133)]

The concept of being on "both sides of the fence" is interesting. Some of us would define it as being in or out of the LWF, or believing or not believing widely held LWF beliefs.

When I was growing up in Tennessee and first started trying to grow closer to the Lord, I went through a "feeding stage" of voracious reading of the bible, prayer, and waiting on the Lord. I was one of those naive people who ambitiously said I was going to read the whole bible front to back, you know, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus.. then I started falling alseep in Leviticus!!

By the way, if you are trying to systematically read the bible, I used Halleys Bible handbook, which was sort of like cliffs notes for each book and each chapter of the bible. I also had "Give Attendance to Reading" by JRS, which outlined the chapters that he considered the most significant in the Bible. This manual seemed little-known in the fellowship but I thought it was simply the best and most concise guide to what is really going on the scriptures (how many more times do we reference 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 8, Ephesians 4, etc, compared to a book in Leviticus. JRS did have an amazing knowledge in the scriptures. I personally admired his knowlegde in the Word.

And every day I did one of The First Principles lessons. Over the years I've been through that manual a couple of times.

I was enormously impressed with JRS's knowledge of the Word. The caliber and quality of his this weeks seemed far superior to anything I'd seen in any church until this time.

At the time I was going to a non-denominational church and was frusterated no one seemed to be "going on with God", (that is a title of one of the First Principles Lessons), and deeply longed for an enviornment where I could basically talk to someone else besides my dad about all of these awesome scriptures, truths, and principles I was learning. Thats why I absolutely embraced the LWF when I came into it, because I had finally found like-minded people.

Also keep in mind that my dad was always teaching us things that had alot of Living Word infuence in them as my sister and I were growing up.

Couple that with my exposure to a very Heinz-57 mix of churches during my teenage years: my grandparents were Seventh Day Aventists, and middle Tennessee was dominated by Baptist, Church of Christ (very conservative, no music at all in worship services), Church of God, Pentacostal, Methodist, Catholic, and Mormon!

I was obessed with finding the real God. Something real, not superficial. Tired of all the legalism. Tired of all the rituals, the "pattern without His presence", tired of being told my ideas were too "out there" for this church, tired of being told I was too young to have too much responsibility in a church, etc.

I was also completely engrossed in the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself had appeared to John Stevens at Holy Jim Canyon. I loved to hear the story about his waiting on the Lord in the chicken coop. I read all the school of prophets manuals, and I too felt the signs, palpable sensations on my body, and saw spirit lights and peoples auras. I had a sincere interest of what I now know is called mysticism, of which who better to learn from than JRS who learned much from William Branham? Today, I still get signs. I know the whole thing is completely subjective, but I have reasons to believe they are real.

I was obsessed with my diet, because I read in the school of prophets (SOP) manuals that diet was directly linked to spiritual perception.

I would fast for a day at a time. I wanted the Lord to appear to me. I was determined to be the next John Robert Stevens. After all, I was named after the guy, and I was born on his birthday ~3 years before his death (JRS did believe in reincarnation! Didn't he claim to be Elijah?)

I was like 14-16 years old at this time. My behavior was odd to say the least, and I alienated myself from some of my friends with this behavior. I talked openly about all the spiritual stuff, and moving into my ministry, etc with literally anyone who I thought would listen. Most wouldn't. It is now clear that I was living in a sort of fantasy world, gleaning the best of what I had learned from my families envious collection of Living Word materials, my own "revelations" that were really just my young, wild imagination, and my scriptural knowledge. Couple that with my obsession with new age ideas and spiritualism.

As is typical of many young people, I was incredibly naive at this time, but also very bold and exited to talk to anyone in the LWF that I could about the Word, or anything relating to it. If you ask anyone that knew me at this time (Shiloh summer camp of 1995), I was a little on the "overeager" side! I would just get up in front of a service and make all of these comments, and start prophesying and creating things. People were like, "we like you, but you interrupt other people too much, and you are acting like someone in a Living Word service in 1975. The lingo you are using is outdated. Its 1995 now, so settle down a little bit and just take it all in." I made alot of mistakes, but the neat part was I didn't feel offended, I just accepted it as correction on the road to spiritual growth. And at the time, I felt accepted unconditionally by everyone in the LWF.

My association with the LWF came mainly by my attending the Shiloh summer camps from 1995-2000, and occasional visits to D.C. San Diego, and TLW/CLW. Without question, this made my high school years much, much more exiting than if I didn't have this involvement in my life. I was in high school in Tennessee, but I would work part time all year to save up money so I could go to Shiloh for the summer camps. I loved my peers. I miss them all dearly. I loved the services, the experiences, and all of the fun and memorable times. I still look at pictures that I had taken of my dorm roommates at Shiloh and think about how much fun we had. I was totally engrossed in the LWF. So was everyone else. I laughed when many people told me it was cult, they were concerned for me, etc. It was a total blind spot. I couldnt see it.

Also as I grew older, I tracked with the current word from Gary and Marilyn.

After I had moved to Shiloh, thats when I sensed some problems with the sheparding that I have mentioned in detail already. It took a negative experience to open my eyes. Then I very gradually and cautiously realized where I had been deceived, and the truth about the issues facing the LWF today. I am on the other side of the fence now.

But look how much I gained from the movement called the LWF that traces its origins to JRS:

If my parents weren't both in the church they wouldn't have met, and I would have never been born!!

The Living Word literature and tapes were a very applicable and useful supplement to my reading of scripture (of course, they didn't replace scripture, and I don't treat them as scripture, but there is alot of truth in them.) I feel that I have a very good knowledge of the scriptures today. When I sit in the pew at my Baptist church, I know where to turn my bible. I have heard these scriptures before many times. I always get something new out of it. And in disagreement with what many people said on these boards, JRS lived to make the scriptures real to people. He imparted a gift in the Word (a knowledge of the scriptures in the Bible) to many people, that is not limited to the LWF. You won't understand any of the Living Word literature or its concepts and ideas unless you have a foundation in the scriptures. I owe much of my foundation in the scriptures to the LWF.

I experienced a unique, deep worship of the Lord, which was (and is) truly incredible. I am sure that the annointing I felt was the real presence of Jesus Christ in our worship. I'm praying that deep worship will spread to all areas of the entire Body of Christ. He is seeking worshippers who worship Him in spirit and truth. (I have the new worship CD, and the Feast of Tabernacles 1995 worship tape, both have some of my favorite songs on there)

I aquired great interpersonal skills from all of the socializing that went on.

Although I had accepted Jesus Christ officially when I was 13 years old, I had not been baptized. I was baptized in the lake at Shiloh when I was 15, and it was an incredible experience in God and one that I will always remember and cherish.

I learned how to wait on the Lord, how to pray to God.

In the sheparding experience, I learned to stand up for myself, and what I believe is right and true (I'd always been too passive, too nice my whole life, and this really helped me get more assertive and proactive in dealing with difficult situations).

Most of my previous posts have been negative. But remember, when you left the LWF, you take with you a huge foundation in the scriptures. You have much more than you think. The previous analogy of pure water in a tainted pipe was good.

Find the pure water wherever and whenever you can, and take it. Learn from it. Make the most of it. Chew the fish and spit out the bones. Feel the negative emotions by recongnizing where the wrongs were, but highlight the positive, and continue in your relationship with Jesus Christ. That's what life is all about, appreciating Christ's sacrifice, and continuing to deepen your relationship with him. Bearing the fruit of that relationship.

By the way, JRS defined a prophet as someone who moves in all 9 gifts of the spirit. JRS defined an apostle as simply a prophet, with a commission. It makes sense, but I'm struggling with how I feel about modern day apostles and prophets.

Please share your opinions on these talking points.

Iron sharpens iron like one man sharpens another. I'm just trying to outline some additional talking points for discussion.

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[Xwalkite (209.86.142.252)]

I think it takes a certain amount of ambition and pride for someone to become a minister. Sometimes that ambition causes problems. I think JRS needed the attention that he got, and because of that, he allowed the inner circle to manipulate him right at the last. I don't know if Hargrave and Marilyn have grown in the last 21 years or so, they probably have, and the church is probably healthier now than it ever was, just looking at it superficially, from the outside.

[Seraph (203.110.131.42)]

TLW - The Living Word (building) in North Hollywood, CA
CLW - Church of the Living Word in North Hills (Sepulveda), CA

[Seraph (203.110.131.42)]

A 5th thread
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/1728.html

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

I thoroughly enjoyed your post. I think I've met you somewhere, you sound familiar. Would most certainly recognize the face. Where ever you go and do, I stand as one to bless you. Leaving TLWF doesn't constitue condemnation for leaving, but moving on in what God has in store for you. You are full of the word and well pleasing to the Lord.

Joseph

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[XPineConeX (205.188.209.133)]

Thanks Joe. I appreciate it. And thanks for contributing to these threads.

[xwalkite (209.86.142.212)]

Although I left the Walk not long after JRS died, I have to say that it has survived as a church a lot longer than I thought it would, and I am glad that Shilhoh is still around. The Hargraves must be doing something right.

[Evin (24.31.53.193)]

Meanwhile, thousands of miles away...

http://starbulletin.com/2003/07/26/features/story1.html

[xwalkite (209.86.131.85)]

That seems like a very cool church. Good idea too, converting a spa into a church.

[Xwalkite (209.86.138.246)]

I mentioned on the other Living Word board that the present generation of the Walk may be the people that take the teachings of Latter Rain to the people that need them, and partake themselves of some of the things that other churches have fed on. For instance, while Living Word was focused in on Ephesians 4 and Romans 8, they were expanding their beliefs in those areas while neglecting some of the warnings in Galatians 5. The generation that I was a part of was too egotistical to perform the work of the evangelist, but today's generation may not be.

[Anonymous (207.69.79.98)]

I think my fondest memories of Shiloh were somewhere in probably 1984. This chick from the Knoxville Tennessee church came into the santuary and was dancing, well, two of them were actually. Both had on shorts up to their asses and they were dancing during the worship. Bill Maybee, being a man that had a taste for the ladies as I recall, mentioned them "dancing before the Lord."

I recall sweeping out the kitchen area with Bob Raba. I believe Raba still played for the Redskins at that time.

I recall the intercession for John Robert Stevens to come back. I think the biggest thing that contributed to my leaving the Walk was getting bored with these space cadets not accepting reality. I might be interested in visiting a church or two in the Walk now that they finally burried JRS.

[Anonymous (207.69.92.22)]

I am very seriously considering hooking back up with Living Word. I think I will enjoy the designated relationships. I will pay the elders to give me a sweet young thing to shepherd. That sounds like there are some great possiblities.

[xwalkite (207.69.92.22)]

I think the revelation that JRS and others had in the outpouring of Latter Rain at the midpoint of the 20th century has not been completely assimilated. We could look on and judge JRS and others but we are only spinning our wheels, we are concentrating on how the Living Word has affected others, including JRS, and not concentrating on how we ourselves are handleing it. I believe there has been several steps to restoring the church to the majesty that it once had, I don't think we are there yet, (personal oppinion) but I think we are headed that way. The restoration of the office of apostle and prophet is one of the steps. I don't think the offices have ever completely dissappeared from the face of the earth, but I don't think they have been restored in the numbers necessary as of yet. I believe creative prophesy is one of the things that is being loosed in the earth again, creative prophesy such as speaking over dead bones to create an army, and, if need be, calling up bears to devour rebellious youths.

[Anonymous (209.86.129.221)]

The Living Word is a manifestation of the Latter Rain movement. Realizing that JRS did not join together with other Latter Rain movements, still, the Living Word is a part of that Latter Rain outpouring. It is Rhema word, spoken word, living and prophetic, creative prophesy. This is something that takes some time to assimilate. I don't think that God is finished with the Gift, there must be a broken people to have such a Gift, to be trusted with it. At first, there was a people that were too proud, too arrogant, and the creative word did not manifest itself to the fullest potential. What do some of the other posters think?

[Xwalkite (207.69.83.113)]

Was Satan bound for a thousand years as is claimed by current Walk members? Did the Kingdom begin in 1979?

[Anonymous (66.123.252.167)]

How much is a standing order of 4-star tapes? My soon to be retired mother has been on standing order for the last 20+ years--my sibs &amp; I were wondering how much she has spent (instead of saving for her retirement)? She won't tell me (blow out that I am)--&amp; I'm pretty sure I can't call TLW &amp; find out

[Chad (198.81.26.106)]

They sell the old JRS tapes for like 5 bucks a piece. I'm not sure what shipping is, probably like 1.50 or something. I believe the new tapes from Gary are like 5.50 or 6.50, they could be more. So just multiply how many tapes she has purchased by about 6 bucks and you will get your total.

If you want to be even more depressed, then estimate how much she gave, beyond tithing, for such offering focuses as word for the world, APCO Support, the Shiloh Ampitheatre, The Shiloh Remodel, The TLW remodel, the LA kingdom school, the trust fund, Gary and Marilyn's houses, ect, ect, ect.

Then if you want to get even more depressed, factor in the interest that would have compounded over 20 or 30 years and you will most likely find it to be a substanial amount. Of course no one made her give, but had she not been in a cult she probably would have a lot more in the bank.

But don't worry I'm sure if she lacks money for retirment Gary and Marilyn will let her live in one of their houses and scoot around in their Lexus. And she can always sell her tapes on EBAY. I'm sure there's a big market for tapes by Gary Hargrave and John Robert Stevens out there. After all Marilyn did say that we are in a spiritual famine and the word is more valuable than water...

Then again, they might not sell for that much on EBAY since the rest of the christian world goes to Jesus Christ for the water of life that he freely gives.

[Anonymous (207.69.93.43)]

The Manifest Sons of God teaching

The Latter Rain movement of the late 40's had given birth to numerous other sub-teachings. The Manifest Sons of God was divided into two major sects. The Walk, and the Body of Christ. The Walk came out of the Latter Rain Movement under the “apostleship” of John Robert Stevens, who like Paul Cain and others was a William Branham disciple. His was the Church of the Living Word in Redondo Beach, California.
The Charismatic Dominionism expressed in spiritual warfare and the current signs and wonders movement is largely an extension of the Manifest Sons of God doctrine. Manifest Sons teachings are Kingdom Dominionist: they believe in restoration of the Church, restoration of the 5 fold ministry with the offices of apostles and prophets, having authority through its leaders by strong shepherding and discipleship. A perfection of the saints, immortalization, and the attainment of being Christ as we become just like Christ in nature and ability. The Manifest Sons of God doctrine has an eschatology of Dominionism through the perfecting of the saints under the leadership guidance of the latter-day prophets and apostles. They mostly deny a rapture in the classic sense. Some replace it with individual raptures, a collective transformation to immortality on earth, or none at all. This quote is representative of the teaching “the doctrine of the Rapture was a great and effective ruse of the enemy to implant in the Church a retreat mentality ... already this yoke has been cast off by the majority in the advancing church, and it will soon be cast off by all.” (Rick Joyner, THE HARVEST 1989 /1990 revised booklet on pg.121)

We are talking about the great and blessed hope of his return. In its place is triumphalism by installing a new leadership for the Church. If there is no rapture than there is no resurrection, they are simultaneous events!

Considering what Joyner first said he later changed it in his 1993 printing of the Harvest as it became the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture (p.201) In this he fares no better as he takes the position that the Church will endure through the tribulation. despite the Scriptures teaching that the saints will be overcome in the tribulation, and few will survive. Hardly a scenario that manifest sons of God can agree with. this becomes even more problematic when brought to its conclusion of the Church found ruling when Christ comes back. Certainly to look forward to the Lords coming as any time is not retreating but hopeful. One does not need to abandon everything to do this and wait on the top of a hill in white robes as some did over century ago.

The modern Spiritual warfare practice that is an attachment to the signs and wonders movement finds its roots in the Latter Rain as well. The revival will come by the Church being led by these leaders in defeating demonic spirits through spiritual warfare prayer, fasting. The spiritual warfare conducted through intense worship and praise, and by spiritual mapping, identifying strongholds, rebuking demonic powers and binding territorial spirits.

“God's people are going to start to exercise rule, and they're going to take dominion over the Power of Satan. They're going to bring diabolical princes down. The dark powers that hover over the Parliament buildings of the nations are going to be paralyzed by the corporate prayer of an authoritative community. As the rod of His strength goes out of Zion, He'll change legislation. He'll chase the devil off the face of God's earth, and God's people together, doing the will of God, will bring about God's purposes and Gods reign. “ (Ern Baxter, National Men's Shepherds Conference, Kansas City, Missouri, 1975)

The apostles will rule the Church through establishing independent churches, unaffiliated with the corrupt denominations (Branham's teaching). The exception which is currently underway, is that denominational churches would abandon being separate, join the movement coming under their leadership. It is essential to the Latter Rain movement for the church to be unified as one, under a central leadership. Otherwise Christ cannot be incarnated (manifested) in the Church and give his power to conquer the world for Christ.

That the world will be conquered through an elite group of overcomers who produce signs and wonders unlike anything ever seen, even in the early church by the apostles. This they believe will lead us to the greatest revival of history. An endtime harvest of billions of souls, where the majority of the world will be won to Christ and the kingdom would be established or ready to be received by Christ. “This harvest will be so great that no one will look back at the early church as a standard; all will be saying that the Lord has certainly saved His best wine for last. The early church was a firstfruits offering, truly this will be a harvest! It was said of the Apostle Paul that he was turning the world upside down; it will be said of the apostles soon to be anointed that they have turned an upside down world right side up. Nations will tremble at the mention of their name.” (Rick Joyner, Restoration, may/June 1988, the Harvest)

What does Joyner mean they will turn the world rightside up?Are they going to undo the work of the Apostle Paul, or maybe he means a new thing altogether.

“Angelic appearances will be common to the saints and a visible glory of the Lord will appear upon some for extended periods of time as power flows through them. There will be no plague, disease, or physical condition, including lost limbs, AIDS, poison gas, or radiation, which will resist the healing and miracle gifts working in the saints during this time. “ (Rick Joyner, The Harvest, 128-129)

The apostles and prophets would give blessings upon those whom bless, and curses upon those whom they curse. The power of their words would bring results. They will complete the conquest of the nations before Christ returns. The conquering will be done as “Joel's army “ a group of immortal beings that will bring judgment upon the ungodly and all who do not accept the authority of the NEW Apostles and prophets. The tribulation is replaced with manifestations of power executing Gods judgment through Joels army to cleanse the earth of the evil and bring order to establish his kingdom.

Those who go further into the different levels will achieve a certain degree of holiness under the direction of the apostles and prophets. They will overcome death, and will become immortal.

The manifestation of the Sons of God

Rom.8:19 “For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”

“The Earth and all of creation is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, the time when they will come into their maturity and immortalization... When the Church receives its full inheritance and redemption then creation will be redeemed from its cursed condition of decay, change and death... the Church has a responsibility and ministry to the rest of creation. Earth and Its natural creation Is anxiously waiting for the Church to reach full maturity and come to full sonship. When the Church realizes its full sonship, its bodily redemption will cause a redemptive chain reaction throughout all of creation.” ( Bill Hamon p. 385 THE ETERNAL CHURCH) This is what is called in the new age the paradigm shift, while biblical terms are used it is identical in its process and affect .

“I see the great year of Jubilee, when we shall pass through the veil into the very Presence of the fullness of God, to be filled with this fullness and go forth proclaiming liberty to all of creation. Romans 8 calls this the “Manifestation of the Sons of God”, and Says the whole creation is groaning and crying for this day. ...This is the ultimate anointing! This is the fullness of the Spirit! This is the Spirit without measure that Jesus had, spoken of in John 3:34, reserved until the end time for His Brethren!”' (EAGLE SAINTS ARISE, Bill Britton)

This whole teaching is based on a distortion of Romans 8:19 which speaks of the “Manifestation of the Sons of God.” The belief is that some will obtain immortality by incarnating Christ before he returns. What is it that all creation is waiting for? According to orthodox Christianity, all creation awaits the removal of the “Curse of Futility”, sin placed upon it by God from the Fall of Adam. What they neglect is the context and the other passages that explain this event vs.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.”

The adoption the redeeming of our body, when, how?

Phil. 3:20-21: “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”

1Thess. 4:16-17: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Cor.15:51-54: “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

After the Ascension, the angels told the Apostles who watched, Acts 1:11 “ This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” The Holy Spirit was sent soon after he ascended nearly 2,000 years age, there is no new sending of the spirit for the Church, nor any other way for Christ to come back but the Scriptural way. He comes back in the same body he left in, not in the church as the body. Anyone who says differently is denying what the revelation of the Scriptures say.

Heb.9:28: “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” It is Christ who appears and changes us, not some event separate from this. We wait for him, we cannot accomplish this on our own. It his coming that is connected to this even, and whether one believes in a pre, mid, or post rapture does not change the connection of his coming for this to occur.

It has always been understood that Jesus Himself is the One Who would do the restoring of the kingdom. When he comes again at the second coming the curse on the earth will be lifted we would be changed and he would reverse the affects of the curse on the earth. But biblically it is not until after the millennium that the new heavens and earth replace the former and death will be no more(Rev.21:4).

But, those who espouse the Manifested Sons of God doctrine have a different take on this. To them, all creation eagerly awaits the time when the “true sons” of God will finally realize “who they are in Christ,” conquerors and overcomers, and will come into their true Glory and Power as the Sons of God. It is they who will be the ones who will remove the curse, overcome all of God's enemies, even death! The historic church has been waiting for God the son in the 2nd coming. They teach that God is waiting for you and I.

In Jewel Van der Merwe's book, Joel's Army, she quotes Earl Paulk a influential “Kingdom Now” pastor, he explains his application of Romans 8:19 “The last enemy to be conquered is death. Who will conquer it? A mature Church will come forth with the kind of authority and power that will be able to stand in the very face of Satan. When the Church reaches that level of maturity, God will be able to say, 'This generation of the Church does not need to die. She has reached a place of maturity. I will translate her because her maturity pleases Me.'“

“Not only will they not have diseases, they will also not die. They will have the kind of imperishable bodies that are talked about in the 15th chapter of Corinthians ... this army is invincible. If you have intimacy with God, they can't kill you.” ( Paul Cain, “Joel's Army,” 1990 p. 218) [For more on Paul Cain's revelation of Joels army> go here]

Jack Deere says, “ they won't be able to kill this army.” John Wimber as well said, “those in this army will have the 'kind of anointing ...his kind of power ... anyone who wants to harm them must die.” This is Joel's Army.

Bill Hamon writes, “The Church will gain victory over the last enemy, death. Victory speaks of a battle being fought. The last day saints will wage and win a warfare against death. The last generation saints will come to translating faith in preparation for participation in the translation.” (The Eternal Church, P.349)

“Yes, sin, sickness and disease, spiritual death, poverty, and everything else that's of the devil once ruled us. But now, bless God, we rule them -- for this is the Day of Dominion!” (Kenneth Hagin, “Rejoice! This Is the Day Which the Lord Hath Made!” The Word of Faith, Sept. 1996 )

“When the Sons of God are manifested. “The saints will take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever... the Sons of Yahweh, one like the Son of man - not the lonely and blessed Yahshua of Nazareth alone, but the complete body of sons - Yahweh's masterpiece of the ages, the body of Yahshua, the house not made with hands - My Father's house of many mansions, each one whether individually or collectively 'An habitation of Yahweh through the Spirit”...these sons of Yahweh are indeed the 'One like the Son of man.”'(NEW BEGINNINGS, George Hawtin )

Speaking on the feasts (Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles)”.... typify the whole Church Age, beginning with the death of Jesus on the cross, and consummating in “the manifestation of the Sons of God”-the “overcomers” who will become perfected and step into immortality in order to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.” (George Warnock, The Feast of Tabernacles, 1951, pp. 14-20)

Quite a difference from the saints inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes and being servants (co-heirs) in it, adopted as sons (Rev.20:6). This is not a kingdom operated by humility but of power and force. This is why the take it by force teaching , and the pulling down of strongholds. Never mind that neither Jesus or an apostle never taught this to others, because this is what God is doing now. Its new, its fresh!

The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)

The Scriptures teach that we are servants (Galatians 3:10), friends (John 15:14-15), and sons (I John 3:1). There is no Scriptural support that Paul who was the least of the apostles, or any other apostle ever went beyond servanthood attaining sonship. Many epistles begin with the salutation by an apostle as a servant of God. There is no teaching from Paul or any of the other apostles believed they would go beyond these “levels” to become gods themselves.

This teaching today comes disguised in the word faith sector of the church where they teach we can speak things into existence just as God did ( Rom. 4:17)

Christ comes into the Church before he comes for the Church

Some believe that the second coming of Jesus is to be “in the Church,” before he comes for the Church. That the Church, his body will actually become Christ on earth, glorious and triumphant. They will go Conquer the land and then rule the nations with a rod of iron. Some believe that after the Church has taken dominion over the nations, she will hasten the day that will call Jesus back to earth and hand the nations over to Him.

This is nothing new and Charles Taze Russell actually taught this over 100 years ago. If you don't recognize his name he founded the Jehovah's Witnesses cult.

“Our high calling is so great, so much above the comprehension of men, that they feel that we are guilty of blasphemy when we speak of being 'new creatures'- not any longer human, but 'partakers of the divine nature.”“ .it is claiming that we are divine beings- hence all such are Gods,. Thus we have a family of God .... Now we appear like men, and all die naturally like men, but in the resurrection we will rise in our true character as Gods ... Then the whole family- head and body are addressed as one, as they will be under Christ, their head, saying: Arise 0 God, judge (rule, bless) the earth: for thou shaft inherit all nations. The Mighty God, and Everlasting Father of the nations is Christ whose members in particular we are.” (Watchtower, 10 &amp; 11/1881, p. 10, Reprints, p. 301)

“ under him as our head constitute the whole body of Christ, the 'Mighty God' (El-powerful one) to rule and bless the nations- ... and therefore be members of that company which as a whole will be the Everlasting Father to the restored race.” (Watchtower, 10 &amp; 11 / 1881, p. 10, Reprints P. 298)

As we can see this is well over 100 years old from a group that is a cult now, just as they were then. While this teaching may have changed in terms it has remained consistent. The JW's believe in an anointed 144,000 that the earthly class must relate to for receiving the benefits of the new covenant. Sound familiar? It should since this is exactly what is being taught by the apostle prophet movement. that we must come under their leadership and become an army to be victorious in the last days. This is just as cultic as the JW's view. There are no Apostles today as there were when the Lord hand picked the 12 and others who were apostolic legates under them. The simple reason is that no one has seen the risen Lord to qualify. All the visions and dreams do not to qualify someone for apostleship (see Acts 1)

But inside the Christian Church they taught no different. From Warnock's manifesto “Christ should visit the saints in the last great Feast, and minister His life 'In secret 'before He is openly manifested! Christians think it is a horrible thing that Christ's second Coming should be spoken of in this manner. When a Christian comes to that place where he really appreciates and understands and enjoys Spiritual things, then he can truly rejoice in the fact that Christ is coming back again to be manifested within. (THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES, George Warnock, Bill Britton 1951, p. 108). When he speaks of Christ he is meaning Christ being the anointing, not the person of Jesus.

William Branham “In them days it was God in a man, His Son, Jesus Christ. ...It was God In Christ, God, in a man, the fullness of the Godhead bodily In a man. God, in a man; now, it's God in men. See? The fullness of God in the Godhead bodily in His entire Church, manifesting Himself, fulfilling His Word. (THE MIGHTY GOD UNVEILED BEFORE US p.20) Here we have a the Manifest Sons of God teaching in embryo. Branham's misunderstanding of how God was in Christ and he paralleled this to God in the Church. The reason for this is, “ that God has always had skin on Him.” (ibid.21)

Earl Paul has been saying for years “We are on earth as extensions of God to finish the work He began. We are the essence of God, His on-going incarnation in the world.” (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens, 1985, p. 125).

The Church is not God nor the fullness of God, this denies the uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son because it makes the Church on equality with him as many sons with the same nature.

“The completion of the incarnation of God in the world must be in His church...Jesus Christ is the firstfruit, but without the ongoing harvest, the incarnation will never be complete.” (Earl Paulk, The Wounded Body of Christ, p. 43).
“The living Word of God, Jesus Christ, was conceived in the womb of a virgin. The Word became flesh in the God-Man Jesus Christ (John 1:1). Likewise, the Word of God must be made flesh in the Church in order for us to bear witness to the Kingdom which God has called us to demonstrate.” (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens, 1985, p.60)

I would think it is apparent that there is a vast difference between the word made flesh by God incarnating in Jesus and becoming man and his residing in his people, the Church.

“The living Word of God, Jesus Christ, was conceived in the womb of a virgin. The Word became flesh in the God-Man Jesus Christ (John 1:1). Likewise, the Word of God must be made flesh in the Church in order for us to bear witness to the Kingdom which God has called us to demonstrate.” (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens , 1985, p.60)

Frangipane agrees with Paulk as he says “When the Spirit of Christ comes into the physical world, He must enter through a physical body... When Christ first entered our world as a child, it was Mary whom God chose to give Christ birth. Mary's life symbolized the qualities the Church must possess to walk in the fullness of Christ ... [God is preparing us as He did Mary to give birth to the ministry of His Son. Even now, in the spiritual womb of the virgin church, the holy purpose of Christ is growing, awaiting maturity; ready to be born in power in the timing of God ... the virgin Church is “in labour and in pain to give birth” (Rev 12:1-2) ... even now, he trembles and the heavens watch in awe, for I say to you, once again, the virgin is with child. Before Jesus Himself returns, the last virgin Church shall become pregnant with the promise of God. Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full statute of its Head, the Lord Jesus. Corporately manifested in holiness, power and love, the Bride of Christ shall arise.” (Francis Frangipane, 'In the Presence of God” Now Wine Press, 1994.Chapter: “The Virgin Shall Be With Child)

This is manifest Sons of God doctrine, it may not be called this by the speakers some may not even know of its roots but most to believe are well aware of its implications.

Kenneth Hagin believes the same thing with only a slightly different angle “We [the church] are Christ.” (As Christ is -- So are we, (Tape #44H06)

“Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth.” (Kenneth Hagin, “The Incarnation,” The Word of Faith, p.13, Dec. 1980).

Kenneth Copeland agrees with his mentor, “[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ” (Zoe: The God-Kind of Life, . pgs. 35-36, 41, 1989)

Copeland states “Jesus is no longer the only begotten Son of God.” (Now We Are In Christ Jesus, p.24,1980)

This means Christ was the pattern son, not unique, but only the first of a kind of many, many more.

Rod Parsley states, “In the old covenant we did not have Jesus in the flesh. In the next covenant we had Jesus manifest in the flesh. In the next covenant we had Jesus manifest in the flesh in a person but of many in a different form.” (Breakthrough 9/19/2000) Parsleys three covenants has the Church becoming what Jesus was exclusively. Yet he teaches now “For in him dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily that’s what it said the fullness of the Godhead bodily. .. Now it didn’t say anywhere that you wouldn’t have the same thing. Didn’t say anywhere that you couldn’t obtain unto the same thing.” “In Acts the matter is you’re an heir a joint heir with Jesus Christ. Jesus said don’t look at what I’m doin, brother what your gonna do is greater than what I’m gonna do. ” (Ibid.)

Morris Currello leading the unaware in a chant “Who are you? Come on, who are you? Come on, say it: ‘Sons of God!’ Come on, say it! And what does work inside us, brother, is that manifestation of the expression of all that God is and all that God has. And when we stand up here, brother, you’re not looking at Morris Cerullo; you’re looking at God. You’re looking at Jesus.” (Morris Cerullo, The Endtime Manifestation of the Sons of God World Evangelism tape 1)

Benny Hinn, When you say, 'I am a Christian,' you are saying, 'I am mashiach,' in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words. That is a shocking revelation. ...May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around” (Praise-a-Thon, TBN, November 6,1990)

“Are you ready for some real revelation knowledge....you are god” (Benny Hinn, “Our Position In Christ”, tape AO31190-1)

This certainly is a revelation, to God.

Hagin, Copeland, Hinn and the much of the Word/Faith Movement all are saying basically the same thing. Why? Because they are coming from the same source, the Latter Rain teachings which are enjoying new growth unlike it ever did before. The new anointing that is being dispersed brings their followers to a “new knowledge” of the Scriptures.

D.R. McConnell writes about the new revelation knowledge “When these truths really gain the ascendancy in us, they will make us spiritual supermen, masters of demons and disease. It will be the end of weakness and failure. In the presence of these tremendous realities, we arise and take our place. We go out and live as supermen indwelt by God.” (A Different Gospel, P. 21, D.R. McConnell, 1988.)

Much of this has been birthed through the Vineyard Church via the signs and wonders movement, Bob Jones, “the Church is in no condition for the Lord to come today ... He's going to come for a church that is mature in righteousness... progressively going in this righteousness until you take on THE VERY DIVINE NATURE OF CHRIST HIMSELF and you begin to see Christ in the Church. Christ won't come for the church until you see Christ in the Church until the Church looks like Jesus. PAPA (God) planted Jesus, He sowed Him down here in this earth to have a whole nation of brothers and sisters that looked just like Jesus ... His Son was a ALPHA SON, your children are the OMEGA sons and daughters.” [Mike Bickle interjects here, “Jesus was the beginning, but our children and us, we're included in this ... we're the end of this thing.” (quoted in Discernment newsletter)

To put sinners saved by grace on an equality with Christ shows how deficient these so called “anointed ones” are in biblical understanding.

Today this movement comes in many names, the current and most popular clich&eacute;' is “the anointed,” Christ, they say they are “anointed” Christ, exactly what Jesus warned about in Mt.24. That they can do exactly what he did, dispense the anointing and do miracles. Welcome to the Church of the 21st century.

[XWALKITE (209.86.140.188)]

I don't think the manifest sons people want to pay much attention to the fact that they "must suffer" with Christ if they are going to be glorified with Him. It's all a pretty good fantasy, as long as you leave the cross out.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

In reference to Grant's post...
Why would anyone be bitter if something terrible had not happened to that person. I am sick of hearing a response from those that are continually dishing out hurtful lies and actions and defend themselves by saying that the person that is being hurt, is bitter!

Grant, IF you have learned anything in the Word in all these years that you say you have been in this walk with God, it would be in your interest to know that whatever you have done during this lifetime, regardless of how you justify your actions, you WILL stand before the Lord one day! Hopefully, this may help you to gain a little perspective.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Anonymous (198.81.26.106)

Grant is correct. There are some very deep rooted bitternesses being expressed on this web sight. Some are wounded and need healing. Some, after venting, seem to be healing. Others are wounded and bitter and want revenge. Grant simply stated a fact. Let's call a spade a spade. Bitterness is bitterness. Regardless of the experience, it is how you deal with it in life. Either you seek a healing and move on or stay in a place of vindictive anger where there is no possiblity of healing. Besides, you post seems hostile in itself and perhaps you are the one who needs a little perspective.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Anonymous (198.81.26.106) = Chad. Right?

[Chad (198.81.26.106)]

Nope, not me. Sorry to disappoint you. I have already posted my two cents about bitterness and hateful posts and even about Joseph Grant's post.

(If you were basing that on the same IP address listed for both posts, the repitition of AOL IPs has been discussed at mind numbing length on another thread. Again it shows 198.81.26.106 as my IP for this post, but according to windows, that's not my correct IP.)

By the way, Joe... Joseph Grant right?

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Chad,

Yes....disappointed.

Joseph Swallow, not Joe Boyde.

[Chad (198.81.26.106)]

Joseph, are you a current service attending member of the fellowship, or a past member who gets the tapes but doesn't really attend services on a regular basis anymore? Is there currently a church in Portland?

No hidden agenda, just curious.

[XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)]

Heres a story about JRS my dad told me:

It was sometime in the late 1970s. John was travelling around to all the services in the van. "The van" was the van that John used to transport himself around to all the southern California churches. He was presiding over something like 11-13 services a week (almost 2 a day, someone correct me with the # of services if I'm wrong). Anyway, if you were "someone" in the inner circle of John, you got to ride around in the van with him. People were just intrigued by his charisma and wanted to be with him during his down time.

So John and a bunch of the apco/elders from a local church decide to go out to lunch at a restaruant in town for a ministries meeting. They sit down at a circular table. There are about 10 of them. The waiter asks what they'd like to have to drink. So one after another, the ministries say, "well, I'll have a coke,", I'll have an iced tea", "I'll have a water with a lemon", and they get around to John Stevens and he says, "um, I'll have a beer please"! And everyone laughed b/c of course the other ministries drank beer occasionally but were afraid to look bad in front of John, then he orders a beer for himself.

That is hilarious about some guy sneaking into the adjacent bathroom stall to tape-record John saying something.

I have an old tape with John talking about he had like to ride dirt bikes and motorcycles, but hadn't had any time lately.

I would love to hear any other stories about John. Did he ever heal people? I know he could discern illnesses as well as relationship/family issues by laying hands on people. What else?

[XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)]

I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about Shiloh, in Kalona Iowa. Ever since I began living there, I would tell people in the community that I lived there, and they always asked me lots of questions. I'll provide the frequently asked questions and their answers:

Q: Isn't there a long, underground tunnel at Shiloh?

A: Yes, there is a tunnel, leading from the main structure (sanctuary, administration offices/departments/dormitories/apartments) to the kitchen area. It is about 75 yards long and goes about 10 feet underground. It is like a basement, with cement walls. There are also other short tunnels and rooms that are attached and used for food/maintainence equipment storage. They can be used for shelter in the event of a severe thunderstorm or tornado. The tunnels are lighted at night.

Q: How much property does Shiloh own?

A: About ~300 acres. There are two wooden structures, the sactuary/housing, and the kitchen, as well as an ampitheatre, and a lagoon for waste disposal and sewage. A lake, and a house and barn for Marilyn Farms Company, a for-profit healthfoods company. The master plan includes on-site homes in the future. The main santuary structure is the largest wooden structure in the state of Iowa.

Q: Is Shiloh open to the public?

A: Yes. Shiloh is a member of the Kalona/Mid-Praire council of churches. Shiloh gives tours. Shiloh is represented in the Kalona parade every year. Shiloh very much wants to be involved and a part of the local Christian community and local community happenings.

Q: Who lives at Shiloh permanetly?

A: There are apartments on the basement level, and about 15-30 people live in one and two bedroom apartments. Many of these people are college age (18-25) and attend U of Iowa and/or work in Iowa City. (I think there are currently more people living there now than there were when I did in 1998). The apartment area looks very similar to a college dormitory layout. There are dorm rooms on the 2nd and 3rd floors for people visiting during the Shiloh summer camps. Shiloh is almost completely full of people staying at the time of the summer camps.

Q: What is a Sunday church service like at Shiloh?

A: Praise and Worship, a sermon/word from the pastor, announcements, an offering (tithing), socializing.

Q: What makes your worship unique?

A: Singing in the spirit, which is music playing while people sing to the Lord hymns and in tongues. This practice used to be very unique, but it can now be found in many charismatic churches.

Q: When do Shiloh residents eat?

A: We have our own fully furnished apartments with kitchens, so we usually cook our own meals, but usually two weeknights a week there is an optional church meal provided in the kitchen.

Q: Is the LWF into health food?

A: Yes. Most meals made at Shiloh are vegetarian, lots of salads with sprouts, rice, beans, fruits/vegetables. The food is grown (and purchased) organically (no chemicals or additives). People are encouraged to eat healthfully.

Q: Where do local congregants live?

A: Kalona, Wellman, Iowa City, the Quad Cities, etc

Q: What goes on at Shiloh during the non-summer months?

A: Projects involving transcribing/publishing of taped sermons, manuals, and conferences, accounting, administrative duties, maintainence (there are a very dedicated people who work full time around Shiloh in building and grounds maintainence). From Monday-Friday during the non-summer months, about 15-30 people will be working or present at Shiloh. On weekends, and before/after services most people go home, and the residents are the only ones around.

Q: Does the LWF celebrate Feasts?

A: Yes. The Feast of Tabernacles (fall) and Passover and Pentecost (Spring). Feasts are basically times of gathering at Shiloh from other local churches. Shiloh will have its own local church services, sometimes a phone patch will be provided from the church were Gary and Marilyn Hargrave (the fathering ministries of the TWF) are bringing a word/sermon. If you live at Shiloh, feasts are fun times, because lots of people from other churches come visit.

Q: When was Shiloh built?

A: I believe 1977, sometime in the late 70s (correct me if I'm wrong). Some of our parents met at Shiloh in the late 1970s-early 1980s. My parents lived there for a short time before I was born in 1980.

Q: Why did Shiloh have a negative reputation that it needed to overcome?

A: Because the Living Word Fellowship (in the 1970s called the Church of the Living Word) was more controversial. Don't forget, the 1970s was the decade of the Jim Jones cult, and all things weird. That brought about a mass paranoia of cults in the media, and brought much attention to Shiloh being built in rural Iowa. It was built amidst incredible persecution and resistance from the local community. To make matters worse, many of the people who were in the church that were in Kalona helping build Shiloh were not the most pleasant people to get along with. Many times John Stevens would "commission" someone to go to Shiloh if they were causing problems in their local church. They already had certain issues. So, if someone didn't want to be out at Shiloh in the first place, they wouldn't be very pleasant if they met some nosey person in the community. Walk people would go down to the bars in Kalona and drink, and get in fights with local people. Alot of these Walk people at the time were the ex-hippy generation (some of our parents). Many were complete transplants from Southern California who stuck out like a sore thumb in rural Iowa. Think about it, Los Angeles to Iowa. It doesn't much more different culturally than that.

Couple that with the fact that the COTLW was very into spiritual warfare at the time, and was very into violent intercession, and intense prayer and prophecy. John Stevens was very charismatic and was presiding over Shiloh much of the time. From the outside looking in, it did look like a cult. But its easy for me to talk about because my parents lived there and even the "violent intercession" was just words, not much more violent or controversial than a pentecostal prayer meeting. But people were fanatical about the cult of personality surrounding the man John Robert Stevens. So basically the community thought it was cult because of what it perceived to be man-worship coupled with fanatical and militant devotion to the spreading of "the Kingdom" [of God].

What most of the community dosen't know is that when John died in June of 1983, most of his fanatical followers left the church, and left Shiloh. The mid-1980s saw a decline in people living at Shiloh, and at one point in the mid-1980s, the leadership in the church was considering shutting Shiloh down b/c was wasn't financially feasible to pay for the maintainence costs. But then in the 1990s things got better in the church, and throughout the mid 1990s until now there has been a huge burden on the leadership to end the isolation of the Living Word Fellowship, and thus sincerely try to become integrated within the community. I personally think that it has come a long way from where it was at. If you look at the LWF. The church today is simply more laid back than it was in the 1970s, and thus more like the rest of mainstream Christianity.

Q: What is the controversial doctrine?

A: Has been outlined elsewhere.

Q: Is the Living Word Fellowship, by definition, a cult?

A: In my opinion, with its aforementioned doctrine, it has to have that label.

Q: My son/daughter wants to move to go live at Shiloh/My son/daughter already lives at Shiloh. What should I be aware of?

A: Moving to Shiloh is an enormous change for any teenager/young adult. Talk to the elders/overseers of the church. Ask if the practice of sheparding will be excercised. Ask what sheparding is, and for examples of how it will be practiced. Make clear your reservations about possible spiritual abuse. Tell them you read about the practice of sheparding on this website. Make sure your son/daughter has a definite plan of what they will do when they live there. Make sure they will be integrated in the community in some way. Be polite but firm. If you even so much as sense spiritual abuse, you need to get your child out of that situation immediately. If you need to be reminded, remember the self-esteem, co-dependency issues. I can expand on these issues if anyone wants me to.

I would like to hope that the practice of sheparding improved after I left Shiloh, but I have talked candidly with people church-wide and I think there is still reason for concern.

Q: I've heard lots of young adults are moving around from church to church (eg L.A. to Shiloh, San Diego to D.C.).

A: I wanted to add that I wanted to move from Tennessee to San Diego when I was 14 and go to the Kingdom school. My mom objected, and basically put her foot down, so I didn't go. I was really mad at her at the time, but I think she just couldn't stand the thought of me going so far away. In hindsight, I've told her that I'm glad she didn't let me go. I may not have come back. I've learned that my immeditate family relationships are much more important than church involvement. Your family (parents, grandparents, siblings) are looking out for you. They know you better than anyone else. And they should know what is best for you.

These are some of the FAQs. If anyone has more, just post them and I'll answer them.

[XWalkite (209.86.142.164)]

XPineConeX (or anyone else that might know) could you tell me if it is true that an Amish man gave the land Shiloh sits on to JRS and or the Living Word Fellowship? I have always heard that the land was contributed. I recall when Shiloh was being built. We always had an offering for the construction of Shiloh. One day, perhaps I will visit there again.

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

Yes, I believe his name was Harvey Bender. He was from the local community for many years and I think a good friends of the Stevens family. (I think John Stevens father W.J. pastored the church in Washington Iowa for a period of time). Maybe some older members can clarify.

By the way, Shiloh has had major renovations in the mid 1990s. If the last time you saw Shiloh was in the late 70s or early 80s, it is much more sophisticated now. The new sanctuary is really nice. The architectural layout is nicer than the old sancuary. And it is painted white now over that old green color. The water tower is painted now and it says Shiloh on it. During YASP we built some nature trails and bridges in the wooded areas and streams around back between Shiloh and the Kalona Golf Course. Oh yeah and the ampitheatre was built in the early 90s (not sure of exact time). They have weddings and the 4th of July show at the ampitheatre. You can swim in the lake at Shiloh, and there are some softball fields too.

[xwalkite (209.86.133.172)]

that sounds like a terrific place, compared to the old Shiloh. Back in the day, we sort of looked at Shiloh as a "detention center" for straying elders,,,lol.

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[XPineConeX (152.163.247.79)]

LOL! Right, back then, thats literally what happened. For instance my dad was in R.D. Cronquist's San Diego church. He criticized R.D. Cronquist, which was a big no-no, so John Stevens "suggested" that my dad "spend some time at Shiloh" to "wait on the Lord". I think the real reason was because R.D. was on the warpath when my dad would be at his services, and it was interfering with his bringing the Word, and causing drama at the elders meetings.

So when people who were tough to get along with in the first place get ordered to move from their native Southern California to rural mid-Iowa (hows that for a culture shock?) no wonder they didn't care about image or reputation in the community. By the way, alot of those people left the church after John died.

Now at Shiloh the focus has changed to make it more of a vacationing time when families go out there for the camps. For so long, the camps were just alot of hard working, with intercession.

Now the idea is lets get together as a group and seek God and have some fun in the meantime. (fishing/swimming/roasting marshmellows, tours of Kalona, historical districts, etc.) In YASP we went to an amusement park or water park every summer (Six Flags, Worlds of Fun). When in San Diego and Los Angeles YASP, it was even more fun (surfing at Pacific Beach, shopping/eating out in La Jolla, visiting the Ghetty Museum in downtown Los Angeles, things like that). The summer before I moved to Shiloh, I spent a month at Shiloh for YASP and School of Prophets, then took the road trip to California. We drove through Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, on to San Diego. We stayed at Palmer Lake one night. That was the first time I saw the beautiful Southwest. Then we were in San Diego for 15 days and L.A. for 15 days, then we drove back to Shiloh, along the way going through Las Vegas, and beautiful Southern Utah. It was sweet.

I know I've posted negatively about sheparding in the LWF, but most of my memories of my time in the LWF are tied to the good friends I made and the good times that were had.

When I think Living Word Fellowship, I think of YASP, and all of my friends and people I idolized and looked up to, like J.T. and Sandra Alex, Brian Addleman, John Miller, Curt Skinner, John Dempster, Jason Sayer, and Jeremy Gruenberg, just to name a few.

[Grey/Fox (198.81.26.106)]

That's your problem. IDOLIZE. See. Be responsible. It's not heallthy to idolize anyone. (I hope you don't feel that way about your sister). The walk was only a club party to you anyways. You care more about your status and friends. Where in the hell did God ever fit in?

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[Xwalkite (207.69.82.18)]

you were saying there was a culture shock for people that had gone to Shiloh from L.A. I can imagine. I went up from Atlanta and the first thing I did was slip in the pip poop at the entrance of the santuary. . .

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

Good point. I'm using the word "idolize" in a worldy, non-worshipping sense, if there is such a context.

Ever want to grow up to be just like someone you always thought was really cool?

You are right, totally idolizing someone is not healthy, but I admit that I did want to be just like those guys and gals I just listed. I guess "role-model" would have been a more appropriate choice of words. I wanted to dress the way they did, be as well-liked as they were, be around them alot, have their sense of humor, be taught their leadership skills and interpersonal skills, and be imparted their spiritual gifts. These guys are terrific people.

Everyone idolizes people in the Body, and in the world throughout their lives. I did. All the Timothys have their Pauls that they looked up to.

Heck, now I idolize older college friends of mine, and certain professors and older relatives. I don't submit things to them though. I just look at where they are life and the knowledge they have, and ask them to teach me. We all have friends/aquantainces we treat like that.

In YASP, when I was a YASPer, I looked up to the dorm leaders and the Shiloh leadership.

By the way, I guess I do have sheparding in the form of my best friend. He keeps me in line and calls me out on things when I get out of line or do something irresponsible. Some churches call them "accountability relationships". They help with Christian living. Good friends have your best interests in mind.

But holding another person accountable is not invasive like crossing someone, telling someone no, or lording it over someone. It is simply caring and sometimes telling a friend/family member what they don't want to hear because you are looking out for them. Why can't "sheparding" just be modified to be more like these "accountability relationships"?

Everyone should care somewhat about their reputation and friends. It is healthy.

"The Walk was only a club party for me". Have we met? Or are you drawing that conclusion from my posts? Look, a part of going to YASP was totally all about socializing, and having fun. There was a good balance of having fun and doing worship/bible studies/workshops/ and relationship with God things.

I remember all the fun things (eg Six Flags) as much as I remember the spiritual/growth things (eg being baptized, lots of deep conversations, worship experiences, bible studies with Ed Forbes).

I actually had to learn to stop being overly overspiritual and weird and stop interrupting people and randomly getting up and interrupting in services to prophesy, and bind and loose principalities, acting like it was 1975, and learn how to just relax and have fun, and learn some interpersonal skills. My time in YASP taught me those things. I made alot of mistakes and learned from them all.

By the way, after spending time with all the very stylin' San Deigo/L.A./Santa Barbara/Hawaii people in YASP, I did go buy some Hawaiian shirts and some Reef/Birkenstock sandals and clogs way before they became very cool out here in Tennessee. Heck, I even got my ear pierced. My new dressing preference did not go over very well at my small-town, redneck high school though!

[GreyFox (198.81.26.106)]

You're killing me!!!! Now you sound like a really cool person. I can't imagine why you would look up to anyone. In regards to the party thing, yea, I drew my own conclusion. Sorry about that. I guess the closer your walk with God becomes, your view of people will change (I mean that you will see them no better or worse than yourself). As for the sheparding thing, some you can talk to some you can't. Sorry for this, but, the birkenstock sandals and clogs have to go.

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

You said:
>>I did want to be just like those guys and gals I just listed. I guess "role-model" would have been a more appropriate choice of words. I wanted to dress the way they did, be as well-liked as they were, be around them alot, have their sense of humor, be taught their leadership skills and interpersonal skills, and be imparted their spiritual gifts. These guys are terrific people.<<

Interesting that a Rene Hickman speaks the same about you and says, "Hi!"

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[Xwalkite (207.69.82.12)]

you probably mentioned it and I just don't know where, but 'how long have you been out of the Walk?' I think you said a year or so, but I can't remember. I was just thinking that you might not ever be satisfied in any other church. It may be that you need to be in the Walk and try to add a positive element to the stew. I know the old comparison is always how only one poison gourd will ruin the whole stew, but that, when refering to churches, is pure BS. If everyone in America waited until their churches were perfect before joining, there wouldn't be many people gathering in Christ's name on Sunday. I might join back up myself if there was a Walk church near Georgia, and if they would let me be the overseeing elder, and give me blind Jim Jones like obedience.

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

Xwalkite, are you still in Atlanta? I live in Chattanooga right now, less than 2 hours north of ATL. I'm moving to Memphis in July.

Joe, thats great! I do remember Rene Hickman very well and you can tell her I say hello! I did talk to Ian Kesterson last summer while visiting in San Diego and he told me that Rene is doing great, and I'm glad.

GreyFox, in spite of our reality T.V.-esque ranting and raving, I think we would actually get along if we met. I think you would like my sister Elizabeth, too. She is just like me.

I've been thinking alot, and I think that my sisters and my views on the LWF are attached closely to certain negative things that happened in our own family through the years. For instance, our parents divorced, and certain complex things have taken place in our family that have caused us disappointment and sadness. For personal reasons I will not describe them in detail, but I have gotten into it somewhat in other posts. Certain family members have made bad decisions and have formed worldviews that really are unhealthy, and causing dysfunction in our own family. And unfortunately they have taken Living Word doctrine and twisted it to rationalize their own fantasy of a worldview that is neither realistic nor healthy.

Our issue is a family issue, not a Living Word Fellowship issue. But the family members that are causing the dysfunction in my family spin their wrong behavior and attitudes by rationalizing it in theobabble that was gleaned from This Weeks, manuals, and standing order tapes. In fact, I used to do the very same thing. I used to just wrongly use something I heard on a tape or read in a this week to marginalize some personal issue or relationship conflict in my life.

Gary and Marilyn Hargrave, Silas and Shuma Esteves, John and Ellen Miller, John and Chris Sayer, Curt and Shelly Skinner, and John and Brenda Demptser would agree with me that what happened in family was unhealthy and could have been prevented.

Obviously, these family members are completely responsible for their decisions and actions, but you can see how Elizabeth and I are associating some of the dysfunction with where these wrong ideas came from.

The controversial doctrine is neutral. Doctrines are simply ideas. People are free to believe what they want. But the doctrine-twisting causing dysfunction close to home in my family has caused me (and Elizabeth) to feel a great deal of anger and rage. That is no ones fault but the person doing the twisting, and they should be held responsible if it negatively affects other people.

My sheparding experience at Shiloh made me mad too, but I got over it, and actually made amends with the person a few months after it happened. We are still friends and it is dealt with and in the past. Heck, now we could probably joke about it with eachother. We both felt bad about what happened. We both learned from it. In fact, I've realized how incredibly naive I was at the time, and I was asking to be manipulated and controlled by my naive and overeager attitude. But I told the story so that everyone can learn from it and things like that won't happen again.

So please don't take anything personally that we say. If anything, whatever church you are in, learn from our experience. Let what happened in my family be an example. Other families have had similar divisions/schizims happen. I want our posts to be like a bit of preventative medicine/advice (continuing with the very silly nurse/doctor anaogy). Divorce is preventable, spiritual abuse is preventable, codependence is preventable, being overly naive is preventable. If you are a parent,in any church, you can prevent your kids from experiencing toxicity, spritual abuse, or manipulation (whether it is intended or unintended). If you are the son or daughter of parents who are influenced by wrong doctrine, or misapplied doctrine, and it is causing dysfunction in your family, you can do some damage control by recognizing the dysfunction that is causing or might cause(the hardest part), and then unplugging yourself from the dysfunction. By living your own life to the fullest, seeking God yourself, having fellowship with other Christians, being true to yourself, and trying to be happy and healthy, you will hopefully be a living example of a relationship with God and Christian living, and that is a very strong witness to your parents.

I've learned that I will never be able "talk things out", or ever repair the burned bridges in my family relationships in regard to the highly sensitive subject of the Living Word. I've put to rest my fantasy that we can be a leave-it-to-Beaver family in regards to unemotionally discussing the controversy of the Living Word Fellowship.

But, mine is just one family. The issues are unique, and similar issues may be effecting other families in the LWF.

There are some very healthy families and marriages in the LWF. Let those be examples. There are some great role models for young people in the Living Word Fellowship. I listed some of the people whom I considered role models in an above post. Imitate Paul as he imitates Jesus Christ.

In relationships, instant communication really does dispel deception (Kingdom proverb), IF the communication is completely honest and from the heart (no ulterior motives!). One of my favorite quotes from Silas Esteves is "Love begins with kindness". We can all agree on that.

In 2002 on a tape someone prophesied a breakthrough in "happy, healthy, functioning families in the United State of America". The girl that spoke this prophecy spoke with an intensity, and passion that really met my heart. When I heard that, I prayed, "Lord, I claim that for my family, and any family that has been divided in the Church and in this country". That word will not return void! I pray that we can learn to communicate effectively, make amends for all the water under the bridge, and worship Jesus Christ. He is the reason we all exist. We were created by Him, for his work and good pleasure.

Every day is a new day. Nothing in our pasts can be changed. But we have our attitudes and our relationships with Jesus Christ that we can work on every single day. That is my focus.

I watched the Passion of the Christ last week. It was so moving. I thanked Jesus Christ for His ultimate sacrifice so that we could be redeemed from sin and have eternal life with Him in Paradise. What a fantastic reality that can give us stregnth and joy every day.

xWalkite, my dad, step-mom, and I have visited D.C. almost once every year or two for the last 5-6 years. I moved back to Tennessee in 1999. I went to the School of Prophets at Shiloh in summer 2000, and visited D.C. in May of 2003, and San Diego in January 2001 (wanted to visit LA but ran out of time, was staying with my grandparents in La Jolla), and July of 2003. My dad and step-mom are associated with the D.C. church. My dad and step-mom are on a standing order for the current tapes, so I sort of know whats going on, accept I haven't really been listening to the tapes for about one year now.

I will add that even though I left Shiloh against the wishes of the leadership in January 1999, they were very welcoming in letting me come back up and be a part of School of Prophets in summer 2000. When I left Shiloh, it was against the wishes of the leadership, but we talked things out. We talked out the issues about sheparding. I let them know how I felt, and they were understanding and receptive to what I had to say. Everyone had an attitude of "lets really learn from this". In addition, I have been very well received by the leadership of the churches I've wanted to visit. I still keep in touch with people in the Body, and talk to people on the phone, email, and write letters to people.

All of this was before I decided to criticize sheparding and the controversial doctrine on Factnet. I had been wanting to for a long time. But the fact that I am criticizing doctrine hopefully shouldn't be grounds for people not associating with me. Hopefully not.

I would hope that if I could talk to Gary and Marilyn or any of the leadership in the churches, I could be as assertive and confident in my articulation of what the issues are. I'm sure other people have spoken up about them.

I would hope that I would not be turned away if asked to visit Shiloh or San Diego again. I still love Jesus Christ, and I think its ok to be passionate about the issues.

Even if I wanted to visit a church and leadership didnt want me to, I'd probably argue about it or be annoying until they let me be a part of things again. Thats just the way I am.

The Saul of Tarsus of today can be the apostle Paul tommorrow. People can change, and then change again. Change is ok, as long as its healthy.

I think my criticizing the problems with designated relationships is very healthy.

Do I miss the Living Word Fellowship? You bet!

What do I miss most about the Living Word Fellowship? By far, the people, the good friends, the good times, the conversations, the relationships. Evin (who has posted on here) and I share many great memories of rooming together at Shiloh. Justin (who has posted on here) and I used to room together too. How could I ever forget Amy Westphal, Jessica and Katie Linton, the Dempsters, the Kleints, Jason and Lysandra Sayer, John and Kyle Eckstrom, Marcus Edvalson, Jake Court, the Bartons, Matt Olson, Dave Patterson (go Hawkeyes!), Ron Blackwell, Mike and Chris Baker, Sarah Brown, Dan Foster, Bekah and Jonathan Huffman, Jeff Christie, the Lozinskis, John McMullen, Havilah Meinel, Aaron Eadson, Joel Noland, Nellie Poulson, Amy Rogness, Jonathon and Kelly Wirthlin, Liz Dain, the Haworths, the Richardsons, the Flaggs, Nathan Lilijstrand, Micah and Anna Marsh, Sam Beran, the Solarz's, the Lundys, Micah Scott (go Ohio State!), Sam Terrace, Josh and Erin Brewer, the Thompsons, Daniel Frankenburger, the Hysons, the Knarreborgs, Paul and John Mark MeHaffy (Tennessee boys), the Seboks, the Lopez's, the Grills, the Walters, the Meyers, to name a few? I love these people and miss them dearly. I have tons of pictures of them in bullitein boards hanging up in my room. I have letters that I received from my friends in the church.

Guys, I miss you alot. I hope you are all doing well! Please email me and let me know how things are going. I hope you like all my posts, even if you disagree some of them.

Was my inolvement in the LWF fun? Yes.

The kingdom proverb was the Kingdom is relationships. Life is all about developing relationships and friendships.

I hope everyone can see that I think its OK to criticize something if you feel passionately about it. I encourage everyone to do the same. Its even ok to critizice me for doing so.

Greyfox, you are right, the birkenstocks and clogs had to go. But the ear ring had to go first! I didn't realize that in small-town Tennessee, a guy wearing an earring (even in the left ear) is saying "hi I am a member of the queer eye fab five!".

I told one of my guy friends from Hawaii in the body that if he came to visit me in Tennessee, he would have to get rid of his toe ring.

I also learned that if you are a guy in Tennessee and you have a tatoo (no offense if any of you have them) is saying "hi, I am a dolt, and a redneck, and have no formal education!"

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

xwalkite,

I go to a Baptist church, it is more on the charismatic side than most southern Baptist churches. The worship is good. The sermon is good and practical. My relationship with Jesus Christ is good. I am a blessing to the church. I love the fellowship with other Christians.

My family used to go to the Vineyard. I've gone to Methodist, Catholic, Episcipalian, Latter Rain, Petecostal, Assembly of God churches. I have lots of friends who are Mormon. I read great books by John Gray (eg Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus) who happens to be a former Hindu Monk. I dated a girl who was Hindu in college. I've "tried everything out" so to speak.

We all have things about the LWF that we miss. I certainly do.

I try to emphasize the positive things and chew the fish, spit out the bones.

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

Maybe we could have a big reunion for all current and former walkites and Living Wordites. The emphasis would be social rather than spiritual. We could have a big barbeque and cookout. It could be at my house.

I really miss everyone in the body. Just like I miss the people I went to middle school, high school and college and grad school with. We need to have a fun reunion. I want to know who is getting married and what everyone is doing. (In Tennessee all my twenty-something friends are about to get married. Not me though.)

[Xwalkite (207.69.69.96)]

That cookout sounds good XPineConeX. I can respect Gary and Marilyn if they choose to sit and eat tofu, if they can tolerate all the blowouts drinking beer and smoking dope, long as nobody tries to "shepherd" me.

[XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)]

lol, it will be BYOB!

[Bill Summerville Jr. (4.11.197.2)]

Xwalkite,

You can interpret that to mean, Bring Your Own Booze or Bring Your OWN BUD.

[GreyFox (198.81.26.106)]

I wish I could talk to you (in person), but not on the internet. You would probably **** if you knew my story. Like I said, I'm different, and I take the word literaly. Regardless. Anyway, if you ever find yourself visiting CLW in LA, and wanted to talk to whomever, I'd be happy to attend with you. I know the way you express yourself might offend, but I don't give a dam. You have every right to get your feelings off your chest.

(Message edited by admin on February 20, 2005)

[Xwalkite (209.86.137.33)]

Bill, you could also say "this BUDS for you."

[Xwalkite (209.86.137.90)]

I recall walking around the block and smoking a joint, going back into a service, bringing the word. It was the best service we ever had. I reached under the couch I was sitting on and opened a bottle of whisky that I had under there, and taking a big drink. Now, the whole idea then was to NOT BE RELIGIOUS. We made a religion out of not being religious. I know the scripture says not to let the Grace of God be used for liscentousness. I would like to discuss that philosophy of the 70s and early 80s, is it still the way of the Walk or has the Walk come to it's senses. The truth is that liscenciousness is a spirit, you let it in through the alchol or reefer, and it manifests itself in adultery.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Xwalkite,

Your experience in the 70's and 80's is quite contrary to mine. Pot and drinking were not the token of the day. I quit smoking pot before I came into the Walk nor was I around anyone in the churches that indulged. Beer drinking (outside the church) was common for some, but not all. I'm not a drinker so I never got involved nor was I offended. Today I see a great deal more integrity, a concern not to offend, and a lot more love and compassion.

[Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)]

The first time I got high on pot was with two elders and a deacon in TLWF. It certainly was not condoned but it was definitely taking place in certain circles. From what I've heard from my kids, it's still a problem in certain areas. In my local church (Palmer Lake) those who did not drink alcohol were in the minority. It was a very common thing to be sucking down a few beers at elder's meetings not to mention working on construction projects or parties. It never crossed my mind that it probably was not so good of an idea until I started fellowshipping with other christians. I personally had no conscience about drinking too much even though the scriptures are clear otherwise. My drinking, language, humor, movies, etc. all cleaned up considerably in a different atmosphere.

[Joe (4.4.9.151)]

Larry,

Interesting what others experienced. I founded and remained one of the principle stock holders of a large construction company in Los Angeles (stair builders, i.e. Hardwood Creations) with over 150 employees by 1989, of which 30% were in the church. On any construction project, inside the fellowship or outside, I would not allow drinking or drugs. In fact, I had fired TLW members who abused that rule. Drugs, beer, alcahol were not tolerated. I emphasized a certain atmosphere and got it. Perhaps coming up in the Anaheim Church I never saw these abuses.

[G.G, (199.174.219.193)]

I just found this site. In answer to a much earlier question, Martha Stevens has gone on to be with the Lord. She was a wonderful person who was greatly abused verbally and emotionally by her husband.

Certain ministries were in fact encouraged to pray for her death because she supposedly had a Jezebel spririt and was a nephilim. We would be called up late at night in our home and were told that we must pray for her death right then. Eventually the entire body was asked to do this.

Later we lived in Shiloh and many nights there would be banging on the dorm doors or loud sirens to awaken people from a sound sleep. We were commanded to meet in the sanctuary for urgent intercession. It was usually to pray for Martha's death. When my husband refused to do this, which by the way we refused to do from day one, he was pushed around in the prayer circle so as to help him become a more violent intercessor. When this whole idiocy was completed, my husband had two broken ribs. We never got up for those "Prayer" groups again. We would slide one of the bunk beds in front of the door because there were no locks on the doors.

There are many stories to be shared about life in that cult.

Another fact. There WAS gold! It was stored in the basement of one of the California churches and later transported to Shiloh in suitcases. What happened to it after that I do not know. Martha had reason to say that JRS was worth the millions she claimed.

I'm glad to be out of that group but many years later am thankful for all I learned while in it, both the good and the bad. Wisdom comes from experience. God is good, faithful, and readily near to all to reach out to Him. That is life - walking with Him.

[Bill (4.11.194.221)]

Larry,

Joe is right about Hardwood Creations. I worked there for seven years as an employee, and it was the best job I ever had. You could write a book about what I believe to be a true Kingdom Business, by the way Joe ran things. Did everybody who worked there have the same heart that Joe had, no, but do I believe it was Joe's fault? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I have seen some of the things you are talking about, done some myself in the past, but to say it never crossed my mind that it was probably not so good of an idea, seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[XWAlkite (207.69.83.143)]

GG, I believe that. I have always believed that JRS unloaded Martha to marry Marilyn, in other words, adultery. I believe adultery and alcohol and drugs is a major problem with some of the ministries, especially, in JRS's case, right at the top. In my case, maybe it 'takes one to know one' I don't think that is a problem any longer, but if it is a spirit that is tolerated, it will be a problem at some time again.

[g.g. (199.174.218.217)]

The drinking continues. There were many who became alcoholics in years past. Some came from Christian backgrounds in which drinking was not part of the lifestyle. The freedom liberating them from the former bondages of legalism were a new experience. Sadly, the "drug" of alcohol took over. During a recent visit back to the church it was learned that alcohol is available for purchase at the church site following services.

[xwalkite (209.86.128.205)]

That's the reason that there are guidelines in the Bible, where it says overseers not be given to too much wine. I have never used a drug, that did not turn around and use me. I'm going to pray for LWF that they get freed from that deception that has them married to God and married to the world too.