Sons of God amp the nephilim

[changedagain]

"I was 7 y/o. My parents left when Ruth Klein was declared a Nephilim."

The main teachings of the 70's is a little murky to be...but if I recall the focus was on the bringing forth of the 'sons of God,' in great part through 'violent' intercession. The intercession was likened unto the travail of a woman in childbirth--not, of course, meant to be a physically violent-although some of the intercession could get quite rowdy at the time. John was identified by the churches as the 'first fruits' in the prayer...the one designated by God to break through the barrier of death first...while others linked to him would soon follow. I do remember John referring to himself as the first fruits, so it was clear (at least to me) he accepted this role. There was also teaching at the time about the counterpart to the sons of God--the offspring of Satan--whose purpose, apparently, was to thwart God's sons. They were referred to as nephilim. Do I have that right? Anyway, I know it was generally understood within the churches that John's ex-wife, Martha, was a nephilim--and it's clear from your post--that some others in the church were identified as well. I also remember public figures such as Henry Kissinger, JFK, Wilt Chamberlain etc. being marked as nephilim. The question I have is did this designation (of who happened to be a nephilim) come from John personally? I can't recall ever hearing him name names in any of his messages. Or, perhaps, did the identity of these people originate from those close to him...from what they heard--or claimed to have heard--behind closed doors? Does anyone know?

[patrick]

Nephilim is a scriptual term used very early in the Bible (6th chapter of Genesis if memory serves.) Originally this was a reference to 'Giants' such as Goliath. A Satanic race which resulted from the 'sons of God' having intercourse with 'the daughters of men.' 'Sons of God' meaning demonic angelic beings as opposed to the redeemed 'sons' as spoken of by the apostle Paul. When Christ appeared he elevated the conflict from the physical realm of warring against the flesh i.e. literally fighting as David did Goliath to the spirtual conflict, "Ye shall cast out devils in my name." Judas is the most renowned Nephilim of the New Testament, "Know you not that one of you is a devil?" Christ spoke this to the disciples (the sciptures also say that 'Satan entered his heart' referring to Judas. So a Nephilim would be distinguished by being uniquely controlled by Satan himself rather than a lower order of demon or devil.

(Message edited by Patrick on November 05, 2007)

[winterland]

The release of John Stevens as the First Fruits of the Sons of God became the main focus of the Walk in the years before his death. Sadly many of the leaders who questioned if this was the right focus were labelled "Nephilim." Instead of openly looking at the concerns of these leaders, those doing the questioning were personally attacked. This is a common method used in politics....Attack them before they can attack you. This also created a "red herring" and diverted attention. The Walk fell prey to the same forces that plague other movements: the desire for power, money (or who will control the money) and sex. Unfortunately, most of us were young and sincerely believed that our leaders would never fall prey to these influences.

[patrick]

The scriptures give the example of satanic channels being identified by men of God from Genesis to Revelation. In the case of Christ he refers to those in authority who questioned his teachings and motives as "of your father the Devil." So the scriptual precedent is clear and solid for a man of God to do this (as so many did in the scriptures.) This makes the issue very basic and simple: was John a man of God like so many others who could "discern between good and evil?" Since he was the most discerning trustworthy man I ever met I don't have a problem with him fulfilling the scriptual requirements of the office he held.

Remember, Christ was accused of all kinds of things by religious leaders and betrayed by one of the apostles around him. That this scenario would repeat in modern day can hardly be considered strange and obviously is not an unscriptural pattern (as unfortunate as it may be.)

[changedagain]

Who did John identify as nephilim? Was it just his ex-wife, or were there others?

"That this scenario would repeat in modern day can hardly be considered strange and obviously is not an unscriptural pattern"

Do you know of any other churches outside TLWF that have identified members of their congregation as nephilim? I'm not doubting its scriptural basis, but it does seem a strange practice for today.

"Since he was the most discerning trustworthy man I ever met I don't have a problem with him fulfilling the scriptual requirements of the office he held."

A man of God can still be fallible. He didn't consider himself a Pope, after all.

[themissinglink]

Patrick, it is good to see foundational revelation soundly planted/received and sustained.

[winterland]

Patrick, I do appreciate you explaining some of these doctrines in such a clear way. I think there was a lack of clarity and teaching about these doctrines in the 1970's and the 1980's and a lot of people just did not understand what the teaching of the Living Word was.

I believe that the first part of John's ministry was focused on establishing the New Testament church pattern and the five-fold ministries: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. There may have been some references to the Manifestation of Sons of God and Nephilim in the earlier years but I don't think MSOG was a primary focus. Perhaps sometime in the early-mid 1970's the focus started to shift from the NT church and foundational ministries to MSOG. John Stevens began to be looked upon as a sort of "super apostle-super prophet" or a manifested son of God. This revelation of "who John was" was revealed to a few people at first. I think that the women in the Blix house were some of the first ones to recognize John's ministry as a msog. Slowly this "secret" spread and the "Timothys" began to understand the deeper ministry that they sensed that John Stevens had. I think some of the older established apostles/pastors (those born from 1910-1940 app.) were established in the NT church pattern and resisted this teaching of John higher calling of being a MSOG. It is interesting to see that the MSOG and Nephilim teachings are linked together. Am I correct in assuming that part of the "ministry" of the MSOG is to identify and destoy nephilim? If this is true, I would think that it was John Stevens who identified the nephilim but the rest of us in the body could participate in this nephilim destruction by praying and implimenting the revelation of a recognized MSOG. Would a nephilim be defined as someone who was standing in the way or hindering a MSOG from coming forth? Is this why Martha Stevens was labelled as a nephilim and her death prayed for? How is the MSOG teaching looked upon now in tlw? Are the current leaders looked upon as MSOG or is this teaching even emphasized today? Or is there currently not a recognized MSOG in the earth so there isn't a focus on nephilim right now? Are we now in a sort of transitional period between the church age and the kingdom age when we will see more and more MSOG coming forth? But for now a MSOG is a rare thing and we are waiting for another MSOG to be revealed so that the rest of us lesser msog can move further ahead or to a higher level and eventually this pattern will be repeated enough times that finally we will see the Kingdom age come forth in it's fulness?

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments? I am trying to look at this topic objectively and to understand the path that the word and teaching took.

[winterland]

One or two more questions. Is there a higher "ministry" than a MSOG? Sometimes John was referred to as the Lord's annointed and Christ in the Earth. Are these just other terms for MSOG or is this a special/higher calling and was John Stevens literally a manifestation of Jesus Christ?

Do the same patterns that were established for the NT church apply to MSOG? Does the word of a recognized MSOG need to be confirmed by other MSOG that are on the same level? Should a MSOG really look for other MSOG so their ministry and vision can be compared? Perhaps the "checks and balances" of the NT church are just something that we needed while we were on a lower level. But now we have matured past that and are in the Kingdom age?

I know that some of these questions seem rediculous but I am serious.

[winterland]

My last comment for now. I worked at Shiloh from 1975-1980. Once during this period when the intercession was very focused on "death to Jezebel" and praying against "the Nephilim" I specifically went to the main pastor at Shiloh that was pushing this intercession. I asked this man if we were really praying for Martha Stevens' death. He told me:..."if you don't have a revelation of this intercession, you don't have any business being here." ("here" referring to Shiloh.)

I don't think I ever went to another ministry to ask a question.

[themissinglink]

Dear WinterWONDERLand!
I believe you are a very real check & balance, and the most serious difficulty was the mixed multitude quality of the zealousness of the Body at that time. The mixture of natures, as it were, and agendas that go along with that phenomena. I recall clearly, Hoyer warning John sadly, the soulish Christians could not help him, and would only muddy the stream and get very sick in the process of trying. Proved to be true. (The real mixed multitude within us all, is the enmity to the Cross---simple as that.) Yet, sadly, that was all that could be found at that time, as a father’s heart in John, nurtured and ruined us against the hour to come. More than we know, all that is faithful and true formed and forming in us, was enhanced if not embedded by that hour of visitation, while we whist not!
Hoyer discerned in the Scripture through the peculiar gifting that were his part, that John had 3 ½ years from that point to defeat that which was his assignment, and it was almost to the day that John passed. Was that abortion of mission the ultimate end of God’s intentions, or just a stage that God will ultimately overtake in a greater fulfillment by the process of leapfrog John spoke of so often, to our dull and presumptuous immature ears. The “lists” I hear quoted of him, are not accurate. He said on numerous occasions, that he was the most misquoted man on the planet, and I bear witness. Context and revelation, which so many boasted of very short of maturity into the fullness of Christ….all our destiny, but not at our edict.
(cont'd)

[themissinglink]

(continuing)~
We were all in need of a real "Sweat Lodge" of purification and humility unto the Love that John continually warned was the necessary appropriation that was NOT being pursued. He voiced consternation continually of the "foundation layers" being mute, and the would be "roof builders" not having adequate foundation, and entering far too much revelation "borrowed" at the end of the effort without the other ministries grasping the need to establish the stability in groundwork, that he couldn't stop to go back and repeat.

All our parts being played, is a judgment that will find us all out ultimately, and our responsibility to do it correctly and well. (I believe we will all weep bitterly, and thereby, perchance, in God's intended mercies at our ultimate exposure, even as Peter, find our way to the Upper Room commission to the pure boldness that our "dress rehearsal" actions in no way adequately mimicked.)

That he called for the elder ministries to forsake NOT the impartation of basic foundation, as his pursuit became a real imbalance to the immaturity of the Body. Distortions were rampant, and hearbreaking on every front, both for him, and for all of us. The faithfulness of the 1st and 2nd generation to do this,(perhaps hindered in criticism) and the frothiness and zeal--(and immature presumption) of the 3rd and 4th, without the firm foundation led to some serious imbalances and jeapordy. Turning the fathers to the sons, and sons to fathers, WAS and IS a real issue only accomplished in Sprit and in TRUTH!

I believe he came forth with a Living Word that will endure, (and indeed, according to God’s promise, will be studied for 1000 years when we overtake time,)and spiritually upset the status quo. Everything that breaks through will ultimately sound more or less like John, because it will be the sound of the Living Word, and the Living Word was not John, --he was the earthen vessel that defined the pursuit of Righteousness, by an unworthy nature unto the final displacement by His Glory of all that would compete with God or labor to touch His Glory that can NOT live in His Presence without the Cross.

The sounds posing as the Living Word that do not in Truth bring the true fruit, but are a hybrid noise, will ultimately be disclosed, and hopefully overtaken in brokeness by the Mercies of God by the prayers of His servant. John, was ultimately a lonely forerunner, sustained by Faith in what would eventually overtake the plowman. He knew well it would be an arduous time that followed of sifting and judgments. He said often, a whole other army of faces would inherit and fulfill that which had been released by a Word, if our hearts did not melt before the Heat of God's Fire. He in no way saw himself exclusively beyond the norm of the Kingdom, and longed for true yokefellow to be formed. He did not live to see that Day, and knew it. But he played his part, with all its warts and sorrows, faithfully as another Man’s servant….with that intimacy his only reward. (Cont'd)

[themissinglink]

(continuing)~
Our history is a blurry concoction of distortion and deceptions that were miserable circumstances to pass through at the time. I do NOT agree that the Blix House had the first pure revelation. (The humbler among them, now admit they never knew him.) They were willing to be what God made do with, while He saved us till He could save us.

The story of John and Martha has not been adequately nor articulately told, and none of the intercession was able to move in the Love and neutrality required to visit it with God's heart. It was a mess, but it was what was --among immaturity seeing through a glass darkly. We were all John had at the time, and it was a bitter cup for him to drink. But drink it he did. Were he not a true prophet, his repeated edict that more false prophets would come out of the Walk than any movement in God's dealings with the earth would have been false. It proved to be so.

My heart aches with you in all you endured, longing to see that which must be~ during that which MUST pass away. A quagmire and bloody birthing floor. In it, your heart is probably closer to John's travail and anguish than you know. It was a trumpet call in the midst of unformed destiny. The quotes and historical footnotes left in his wake, are for the most part, the rage and distortion of the enemy who can in no wise stop the outcome, though he furies confusion to cloud the scene of much planting where tares were free to grow alongside, and pollution invaded freely the uncircumcised hearts in enmity to the Cross, which was basically all of us. However, a birthright was buried in the midst of the field that has yet to be clearly manifested, though the straw is surely in the Wind. A Day is as a thousand years, and the Twinkling of an Eye can bring the fruition hidden in plain sight. Fortunately, God aided John to not countenance what anyone would think of him, or not think of him, but for the sake of a faithful Word put in place to strengthen and prepare for that which must needs come to pass--he pressed on with all his heart. Another Man's servant.

MSOG was in the very earliest teachings and from the Appearing of the Lord to John in '63, ~sealed in the Fear of the Lord. (He was well aware by God’s direction, how such a mantle had been led astray before. We all will pass through the fire that established John, though we hoped to secure the privilege without the death strokes. It is not a radical doctrine, but a reality and fulfillment that has always been hidden in plain sight, including the crowns overcomers must obtain to have something worthy to lay at the feet of the Lord---something that only His Grace could accomplish in us, so humility could ONLY put them back where they belong. But only the overcomers accomplish this Honor due the King, and how is this done?
(Cont'd)

[themissinglink]

(Continued)

God is thorough and faithful. A Swift Witness will overtake the Slow wheels of judgment that ground and grind through our hour on inception. I could go on and on obviously, as there are great mysteries of Unfolding hidden in the thrashing floor of our part in the matter.

May the faithfulness of God's tendermercies find us together in the End of the doings, understanding that which could not be understood, even as the picture he often shared of the child at its grandmother's feet, watching the chaos of needlepoint from below, that utimately produced the clarity of the Face of God when seen from the Right Side.

He also used the illustration and song of the martyrs at the icy pond, you may recall, "100 we were, 100 we are, God grant we be 100 when we stand at His Throne"---as some broke away and ran, and centurians moved by the sight from the persecutor's camp and became the fulfillment of the count. God's Word will not return void, and all the deceptions will pass that clouded the purposes of God inherent in turning loose a Firey baptism that will ultimately overtake our reluctance by His Grace and the faithful prayers of his warrior servants.

(Are you familiar with Bill Johnson, “when Heaven Invades Earth”? Interesting all the sprouting of firstfruits that bear the same tone of Voice in which our birthing was housed. It’s NOT over until its over, and every Word be accomplished….Grant it Lord….IN US as it is in Heaven!) All Aloha and Oneness is our dwelling place together……Link

(and please crown the heads with kisses from me-- our mutually beloved elder warriors, who bore the heat of the Day---and remind them of what they know for me….the Circle will in NO WISE be broken, by the Faith once and for all, delivered to the saints.)

PS- while I am waxing verbose here, for the record---it is not good, for the Body to compare itself one to another, nor mock another man’s calling and faithfulness to a unique part that may only be understood perfectly by God Himself at this juncture,--- as we will all answer for these vain words with sorrow,---- and the hand cannot say to the foot, the eye, the intestines, the anus…….!

[patrick]

The safest approach to relating to any man of God or movement of God or leader(s) is not to evaluate the people as much as the Word or teaching. Christ's teaching we would all agree is perfect. Paul's teaching (and the other apostles) is sometimes sighted as flawed or extreme but that's a human level response to divine revelation since the Lord used Paul to write 2/3's of the New testament. My point is that I've seen a lot of evaluation of people in TLW here but you're still talking about sinner's at various stages of growth. Even Peter after three years with the Lord denied the Lord (cursing) and chopped off a fellow's ear so you can't blame this on Christ (the leader) or say that His teaching was flawed etc.

The principle of the MSOG's (Rom: 8) is sound and not unique to JRS. As to where John was in his level of maturity, how could one know unless the Lord showed them? As Paul said, To some I am an apostle - to some I am not. I have no doubt as to JRS's stature in the Lord as a true son of God because I saw the divine nature in him so clearly. People who have criticised TLW have perverted the issue of the focus that was on him because we were praying for him to enter in to this level. Every thing that John did enter into he would impart to whoever was open and hungry for it. Consider that Paul did this very thing, Pray for me that I might have utterance and The things you have both seen and heard in me, these commit to faithful men who will be able to teach other's also. So here's an apostle asking for prayer so that he can speak the word on the highest level and saying essentially, "don't just listen to me - watch me and those things you see in me that are the Lord, walk in yourself and teach other's also." This is the Lord's way of doing things not JRS's own little program. It bother's some people when an obedient servant does His Master's will. That's always been true.

As far as 'secrets' that John had it doesn't seem like he had many since there are something like 18,000 messages. There were no secrets. The scriptural pattern on this issue would be It is not given to them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, it is given to you. The Lord was not going to give treasures to the multitudes who didn't have the dedication to walk in them. However His intention is ultimately that All would come to the full knowledge of Christ.

(Message edited by Patrick on November 13, 2007)

(Message edited by Patrick on November 13, 2007)

(Message edited by Patrick on November 13, 2007)

(Message edited by Patrick on November 13, 2007)

[changedagain]

"The safest approach to relating to any man of God or movement of God or leader(s) is not to evaluate the people as much as the Word or teaching."

Hopefully one reflects the other. Words can be cheap. That said, I think John was sincere and diligent in personifying the words he spoke. He loved God, and loved the people. And like any human being, he had some moral failings, and usually owned up to it.

[themissinglink]

Hear Hear!!! Well done, my brethren!
Aloha Nui Loa~ Link

[spaceman]

I am always impressed with the consistency that our Lord Jesus had. He consistenly represented lovingkindness, after all, He is the God of Love. He said:
"Come to me all those who are heavy laden" Matt 11:28.
"Forgive them Father, for they don't know what they do" Lk23:32
"those without sin cast the first stone." Jn8:7

When James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven on the city that rejected them He told them:
"you don't know what spirit you are of" Lk9:55

In short, He fullfilled the prophetic scripture about Himself:
"a bruised reed He will not break, a smoldering wick He will not extinguish" Is 42:3

In summary, he exemplified the "theme" of God:
"mercy triumphs over judgment" Ja2:13

If we can know His love, all His fullness comes with it:
"the Messiah's love, yes, to know it, ... so that you will be filled with all the fullness of God."
Eph 3:18,19

[patrick]

Changedagain
1. Who did John identify as nephilim? Was it just his ex-wife, or were there others?

There were some politicians I'm aware of but I don't want to name any names here on a public forum.

2. Do you know of any other churches outside TLWF that have identified members of their congregation as nephilim? I'm not doubting its scriptural basis, but it does seem a strange practice for today.

Well, people of all persuasions use the term Judas to describe someone of low character and evil doings. I'm sure the people that were praying for Hitler's death and those that were plotting his death considered him Satanic in some way. The revelation or teaching of nephilim spirits and how to bring *judgement upon them is an old testament truth that was restored. Like many restored truths not everyone (or hardly anyone in some cases) is on board.
*In the case of Joshua and Caleb they new they could kill the Giants (nephilim) because the saw that "their shadow has fallen" referring to a demonic protection about the giants.

1. A man of God can still be fallible. He didn't consider himself a Pope, after all.

Would you sight the teachings of the apostles as fallible? i.e. not the inspired Word of God but sort of hit and miss? The men are flawed and human and sinner's and so on but it's the teaching as Christ said "Whether it be of God or myself." So even a perfect man as the Lord didn't teach from himself. I have never seen a single errant teaching in JRS's writing but I don't think he spoke from himself.}

[winterland]

Yes, sadly there is still a lot of evil in the world. Entire tribes of people are being destroyed in religious wars. Dictators rule nations with unimaginable cruelty and the Word of God is not freely accessible. I think we as Christians have a responsibility to pray about these issues. But I find it hard when the term "nephilim" is used too freely. The same word was used to discribe mass murderers and brothers and sisters from the "body."

Martha Stevens was labelled a nephilim and her death was prayed for. I will never know what was involved in John Stevens' divorce. I know that John spoke that in a divorce each party needs to repent because there is fault on both sides.(And he specifically included the "innocent party.") I know I was told that Martha was suing for half of the assets of the Living Word in the divorce. I do not know if this was true or not. Wouldn't it have been better if we had prayed for the Word of God to be released than for Martha Stevens to die? If we believed that Martha was so alienated from God, wouldn't it have been better to pray that she would turn her heart again to the Lord? Wouldn't we want to see her restored to the Body?

There were disputes in the body over church property. And the "N" word was used to describe those on the other side. In these situations too some people prayed for people to die.

Ministries and members in the body disagreed with the decisions of the pastors. These people were labelled "N" and prayed against and set out of the church. If they were not formally set out, the atmosphere in the church became so hostile that these dissenters just left.

Did anyone pray for the restoration of these people? Instead I was told that if you had "sympathy" for these people you would be "infected" with their spirit of rebellion and you too would be lost from the body.

Thirty years later I believe more in the ways and the power of our Lord than I do in the ways and the power of satan. We need to carefully seek the Lord and our own hearts whenever we pray. Just my opinion.

[changedagain]

If you see John's teachings as infallible (18,000+ messages)--and his ministry as the equivalent of Christ, or one of the apostles, nothing I write here will sway you from that position...nor should it.
The only real test will be the fruit--or lack thereof--that comes from the ministry.
As far as the nephilim issue goes--again, I'm not aware of any present-day church that has identified members of their congregation as the embodiment of Satan. The fact that you brought Hitler into the mix makes it even more noteworthy--considering he was responsible for the death of over 6 million Jews (in spite of what Ahmadinejad claims)...among other things.
I can see why people in the Walk were terrified of being labeled a nephilim. Losing much of your social life would be the least of your worries.

[patrick]

Changedagain:
If you see John's teachings as infallible (18,000+ messages)--and his ministry as the equivalent of Christ, or one of the apostles, nothing I write here will sway you from that position...nor should it.

We all all supposed to come up to the full sature of Christ and be filled with all the fullness of God which is what Paul taught. We are also supposed to love thy neighbor. If a man of God teaches and expounds on these truths (as happens every day of the week in churches everywhere in the world) he is speaking the inerrant Word of God. I'm saying the Word is perfect and I don't believe JRS deviated from the pure Word of God. You would have to give a specific example of error in His teachings. I don't know of any.

The issue of whether any man is an apostle is the same today as in Paul's day when he said To some I am an apostle and to some I am not. If you're saying that a modern day apostle is supposed to be less than apostles in the early church, I would say that goes against the entire arc of God's plan, The end of a thing is greater than the beginning thereof... The light shines brighter towards that day... The seals will be taken off the book...Greater works shall you do etc., etc.

Apostels and Prophets and Pastors and Teachers are still with us. Where does it say They shall be less anointed have less wisdom, less power? It doesn't say that. What it says is that those ministries will bring the church up to the fullness of the stature of Christ. People may not believe that but the scriptures constantly warn against unbelief which is why the Lord said, when the son of man returns will he find faith?

[changedagain]

Winterland:
"Ministries and members in the body disagreed with the decisions of the pastors. These people were labelled "N" and prayed against and set out of the church. If they were not formally set out, the atmosphere in the church became so hostile that these dissenters just left."

I witnessed this first-hand, as you did Winterland. Anything that appeared as a threat was dealt with in a very heavy handed way. I think this approach--extreme authoritarianism--was rooted in the insecurity of the leadership--and bore little resemblance to the justice of God.
note: I thought about putting my comment in all caps, but that might defeat the message.

[patrick]

No one was more grieved about error and offenses perpetrated by authority then John Stevens. People have been twisting the teachings of Christ forever. The point I have been making is that there's a big difference between evaluating the teaching of a man of God (including the Lord himself) and followers (including people in authority.) I have been on the other end of egregious error by authority in the fellowship (about as bad as it gets actually) but the Lord told me to stay put. I'm following Him not man. I think's that's the key for every soul here and everywhere: go where He tells you.

[patrick]

No one was more grieved about error and offenses perpetrated by authority then John Stevens. People have been twisting the teachings of Christ forever. The point I have been making is that there's a big difference between evaluating the teaching of a man of God (including the Lord himself) and followers (including people in authority.) I have been on the other end of egregious error by authority in the fellowship (about as bad as it gets actually) but the Lord told me to stay put. I'm following Him not man. I think that's the key for every soul here and everywhere: go where He tells you.

[changedagain]

"The point I have been making is that there's a big difference between evaluating the teaching of a man of God (including the Lord himself) and followers (including people in authority."

The leader is ultimately responsible for what takes place under his watch. That is part of the evaluation process. As a father, I'm not going to find much solace in bringing a great teaching on the family spirit while constant abuse is taking place within the household. Nor should anyone else. I'm not looking to raise enablers or sychophants.
I think John understood this, and carried the burden of this principle. That's one of the reasons he garnered so much respect...not simply because he brought 18,000 teachings and could read people's spirits.
I don't think this attitude carried much beyond him, though.

[patrick]

"The leader is ultimately responsible for what takes place under his watch."

Doesn't this make Christ responsible for Judas and whatever error the disciples were guilty of? If David and Abraham and Moses can screw up as bad as they did, so can your local pastor. This is why Christ died. There is a wickedness in man. As JRS said, if you ever find a perfect church they won't let you in.

[changedagain]

Patrick,
"if you ever find a perfect church they won't let you in."

I've never looked for perfection--just healthy and balanced. That;s always been good enough for me.
As far as perfection goes...you're the one who is claiming John was perfect...at least in his teachings.
I'm aware John stumbled (temper, sexual indiscretions, drinking)...but I still believe he was a man of God. I just don't think he was infallible, that's all.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

[patrick]

I haven't said John the man was perfect so I don't know why you would bring that up. I've said the teaching of Christ is perfect and that John delivered that teaching without error. That is the issue and always has been since Christ: the Word is the issue not the Lords servants' flesh. I would ask again that you give me an example of errant doctrine in his teaching.

As far as (temper, sexual indiscretions, drinking) I'm trying to think of a single man I've ever met or even historic figure that hasn't wrestled with these things. Remember, all you have to do is think about having sex with a woman you're not married to and you've done it. So that's the entire male race from the beginning of time on that one.

Honestly, I would like to see what you think is error in what JRS taught. The issue of whether he or any other man is a sinner or perfect is easily solved by the Word: every child since Adam is - so why debate that obvious point?

[winterland]

There are several prophecies from the Old Testament about the Messiah that had to be fulfilled.

Be plotted against by Jews and Gentiles together
OT source: Ps 2:1-2 Fulfilled in Acts 4:27

Be betrayed by a friend
OT source: Ps 41 and Ps 55 Fulfilled in Matt 26: 21-25, 47-50, John 13: 18-21, Acts 1: 16-18

Be sold for 30 pieces of silver
OT source: Zech 11:12 Fulfilled in Matt 26:15

Have his price given for a potter's field
OT source: Zech 11:13 Fulfilled in Matt 27: 6-7

I think that Judas had a unique place in history in fulfilling these Messianic prophecies. The teaching of "Nephilim" has lumped Judas, Hitler and former Walk members all together.

Wikipedia has a good article on The Living Word Fellowship that has been recently updated. It gives a much more complete summary of tlwf's beliefs and doctrines.

Patrick: I do appreciate that you have been willing to share your viewpoint from "within the fellowship." You have helped me understand what the beliefs are of the Living Word today. I've been on the "outside" for 25 years and of course there have been changes in that time.

[winterland]

Patrick: I hope that the atmosphere in the Fellowship today is one of openess. And if there is some wrong treatment of the members, there would be a freedom to address it. If you have received some harsh treatment in tlw in the past, I'm sure that you will guard against that happening again.

Best Wishes from Canada Winterland

[changedagain]

Patrick,
How can you know every word from John was error free, unless you've listened to every single message he brought? To some extent, you must be taking it as an article of faith. You believe John was infallible. I believe he was not. We find common ground in believing he was a man of God, with a heart for the people.

[changedagain]

"Patrick: I hope that the atmosphere in the Fellowship today is one of openess. And if there is some wrong treatment of the members, there would be a freedom to address it. If you have received some harsh treatment in tlw in the past, I'm sure that you will guard against that happening again."

Well put, Winterland!

[patrick]

winterland, thanks for the good wishes and support.

changedagain, which is easier, for me to listen 18,000 messages to find one errant doctrine or for you to name a single one you've come across? I said that I wasn't aware of any error (this after 30 years of listening to tapes and reading his teaching.)

You have a chance to set me straight here but I'm not hopeful for an example from you upon this third request. Why not prove your point? You're proving mine by not being able to give an example. Surely your not accusing the man of something you cannot give even a single example of.

[changedagain]

The kingdom of God arrived in 1979. This was based on a 'vision' John recounts in the book 'The Shape of Things to Come.' Quote the vision here if you like...and let's see if you believe this to be a word from God...or vision from God...however you would like to put it.
Also, if you truly are familiar with John's teachings, you must be aware that John dealt with the subject of infallibility in a message that became a This Week--I think in 70's. Search through your collection, and I'm sure by simply looking at the titles you'll know which one I am referring to. In the message he contradicts your statement about relating to him as infallible.
BTW, I am not 'accusing' the man of anything. I'm just stating that I do not believe he was infallible--that's all.
Sorry if I got you all heated up.
Now back to watching Dexter for me ;)

[patrick]

I'm aware of John's declaration of Dec 79 which is identical to Adam Rutherford's (one of the great biblical scholars of recent times.) If you consider that The Kingdom of God is within and The Kingdom does not come with observation and The Kindom has come nigh you (the last being spoken 2000 years ago) then you have something that is not so easily understood. Was there something that uniquely occurred in 1979 that opened up the door for the Kingdom to unfold in it's fullness then? I don't claim to understand these things any more than the moon turning to blood or whatever. My point is that scripturally neither Rutherford nor Stevens could be labeled as false prophets according to those descriptive scriptures I sighted. If the Kingdom is within and not even observed when it comes then it's premature to invalidate their prediction.

John never claimed to be infallible and I've never once said to anyone he was. I said that he spoke the Word of the Lord and that none of his teachings are errant in the scientific sense. What he did say was that he never had to reverse himself or repent of a single teaching. I have never read anything of his that was off or errant accoding to the sciprtures.

I'm not mad here. I enjoy the things of God and the scriptures and like to talk about them. The people that thought that JRS was perfect on some human level were contradicting his very teaching. His whole mission was to present people to the Lord and have them worship Him. He was a very humble, very real man who loved the Lord and served His people.

[spaceman]

I love the messages that JRS brought. For the past 10 years I have been studying the JRS manuals. I've also listened to <u>lots</u> of tapes.

I have pondered for many years as to why there were so many hurtful situations that happened in LWF. The word was so rich.

I have a theory..........

Through no fault of his own, I believe JRS had only a partial picture of the Lord Jesus. JRS knew about:
-the judgment of the Lord
-the knowledge of the Lord (i.e. Sonship)
-the discipline (cross experience) of the Lord
As a result, John's emphasis was affected by the perspective he had of the Lord, and his teaching reflected it. No one man could experience, know and teach on all aspects of God, John taught what he knew.

I may have missed it, but I've never heard John teach on:
-God's love for all people (no favourites)
-God's mercy for all people
-God's peace for all people

Perhaps John had not experienced these qualities of Jesus? Its unusual, because John was one of the most compassionate men I've ever met.

I do believe that if these foundational truths of love, mercy and the peace of our Lord Jesus were taught, then, many hurtful things that happened in lwf could have been avoided. Just my opinion.

[larry_bobo]

It's difficult to understand from inside TLWF the viewpoint other Christians have about the Kingdom dawning in 1979, unless you look at other groups who have also come up with dates. The Jehovah's Witnesses are a good example. See http://blogs.salon.com/0001561/stories/2005/01/09/watchtowerDatesTheJehovahsWitnessesAndPropheticYea rs.html. Maybe a good debate would be to have the leadership of TLW and the Jehovah's Witness work it out between them so we could finally know for sure.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Most of Christianity (and the world) would think they were so far out in left field in the first place that they would not even be interested in the outcome.

Adam Rutherford is not noted as a great Bible scholar but rather as the author of a series of books on pyramidology. http://www.gizapyramid.com/newtour1.htm. His followers are now trying to figure out how he messed up the measurements in the Great Pyramid when his predictions failed to take place. TLWF might take note and learn from them instead of pretending something happened that really didn't and having to face the possibility of losing control. Both JRS and Rutherford would be labeled false prophets by Deut. 18:21. "You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." My Bible seems to omit the part where Jesus says on the cross, "It is finished, except for crossing the line in the pyramid and the door opener apostle bringing down Satan." Maybe someone could enlighten me.

Since when do Christians get their insight from pyramids, eastern religion and New Age thought? Deut. 12: 2-4 says,"Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places. You must not worship the Lord your God in their way." It doesn't sound to me like God is suggesting we glean from the "wisdom of the ancients" for ways to spice up our Christianity in spite of what Deepak Chopra has to say.

I remember the culture of the 1970's in TLWF regarding preparation for the Kingdom dawning in 1979. There were many prophecies (you might check the This Week volumes) of the destruction that would take place within the next decade. None of it did. Our survival food eventually had to be tossed out, the economy didn't crash, the men in the black helicopters didn't take over the world - although it may now be getting closer.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif The prophesies were not talking about the Kingdom coming only in the spirit realm and without observation.

It reminded me of the "prophetic movement's" prophesies about Y2K. People are controlled and manipulated through fear and then there's no accountability when the prophesies turn out to be BS. How about at least enough integrity for an apology for missing it. Maybe I wouldn't think the 30+ years I spent in TLWF were a complete waste of time. In Old Testament times you only got one miss and then they rocked you to sleep.

[winterland]

Larry, nice to hear from you again. You write "People are controlled and manipulated through fear and then there's no accountability when the prophecies turn out to be BS."

This reminds me of something one of the brothers in our body used to say. BS stands for Brother Stevens.

And Larry you also say, " Maybe I wouldn't think the 30+ years I spent in TLWF were a complete waste of time."

That is nonsense, think on the bright side. We all supported John through his divorce and his illness and death. Someone on another thread said that he had supported Marilyn through menopause. Thirty years wasted??

[themissinglink]

According to your faith, be it done unto you....

[patrick]

The scriptural prophecy by Abraham was that Israel would be captives for 400 years which turned out to be 440 years. So we now have Rutherford, Stevens and no less than Abraham all false prophets by the above reasoning. What about the prophecy of the destruction of Ninevah? Didn't happen because of God's mercy. Are we to learn nothing from this?

I guess you can have rocks tell you what's going on as with the Umin and Thummin (seems like a cultish practise doesn't it?) but God can't have 'a sign in the desert' (the great pyramid.) People think they have God and his ways all figured out but can't accuse Him or His servants fast enough. Adam Rutherford absolutely loved the Lord and was a brilliant scholar. Read a paragraph of his writing and that love comes right through. Of course he's going to be accused: where do you think that accusation ultimately comes from? - the Lord? Read Rutherfords writing and discern the man's spirit and see what God shows you.

There is the law and the heart of the law (the latter being missed above in the post mentioning Rutherford.) There are myriad prophecies in the Bible still yet to be fulfilled in the slightest. Some fulfilled only partially and some totally. If the Kingdom is within and does not come with observation who's to say what the significance of December of 79 was?

"The kingdom of God is within" Jesus Christ. There is no man that can say the Kingdom hasn't come because it has in too many hearts to count. You can say certain aspects of it's coming forth haven't occurred such as "The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our Lord..." but that doesn't mean the Kingdom isn't nigh you. Just because there aren't any streets of Gold yet doesn't mean prophecies aren't being fulfilled daily (including JRS's as well as many other men of God.)

Christ said he defeated Satan and yet we have 2,000 years of escalating Satanic activity. So do we now have the Lord himself as the greatest false prophet of them all? What a lie!

[larry_bobo]

The prophesy from God to Abram while he slept, in Genesis 15:12-16, stated Abram's descendants would be enslaved for 400 years or four generations. In Exodus 12:40,41 it states, "Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the Lord's divisions left Egypt. The footnotes in my Bible to the reference in Genesis say the 400 years was an approximate number.

I think the reference in Exodus is clear that God was not even one day late in His time table. I believe when God sets dates, He sticks to them. His mercy does triumph over judgement but that's not what we are discussing. If the prophesies describe what will appear and the date they will appear and it doesn't happen, to me it wasn't God because He doesn't make mistakes. Perhaps you're used to the pyramid god screwing up and having to cover for him/her.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif The real God actually does what He says, when He says He will do it.

I believe it was Jesus that ushered in the Kingdom of God, not JRS or any other group for that matter. You might find it interesting to know there are many others who have claimed to have special significance in bringing in the Kingdom of God. See http://www.banner.org.uk/res/kt2.html . The sad thing is the damaged lives left in the wake of those who feel it's their place to play God to the unsuspecting.

I don't know Adam Rutherford personally, but what God has shown me is the error of mixing eastern religion with Christianity in general. It doesn't matter how loving a person is if they are violating God's commands. God referred to Himself many times as the "Lord who brought you out of Egypt" and constantly warned the children of Israel to stay away from the worship of Egypt.

Joshua said in Joshua 24:14,15, "Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

I choose not to mix up my walk with God with a bunch of eastern teaching, dietary rules, spiritualism and letting humans take the place of God. If you choose to do so, I believe God gives you that freedom - it's just not without consequences. I experienced a freedom I never knew in TLWF once I began to shut the open doors to demonic oppression that I once thought had the appearance of wisdom.

[patrick]

Wait a minute, 400 years became 430? So an exact number can be given (even in the scriptures!) but turn out to be another exact number? This is a solid Biblical principle then. So the people in captivity who started to murmur and complain after the written 400 years had passed were wrong then. And if they accused Abraham of being a false prophet outright deceived. Or was there a nice little footnote on their scrolls saying "it's really 430."

So if Jesus ushered in the Kingdom of God that doesn't leave much room for the greater works does it? Nonetheless you are saying the Kingdom of God can come and there may not be a shred of evidence that it has. So if Christ had said it came in December of say AD 34 you're okay with that in spite of the world's condition? You also don't think Martin Luther, John Calvin, Zwingli and all the rest ushered in anything? Jesus did it all?

Adam Rutherford did not mix Eastern religion with anything: that's a bizarre charge. He was entirely scriptural and indeed had an extraordinary grasp of the Word. You don't come away from his writings worshipping anyone but the Lord. Take a cue from Paul and "rejoice whether in pretense or in truth" the Word is being preached if you're so stumbled by his writings (which it appears you haven't read, as the man's heart is so obviously given to the Lord.) "Judge a tree by it's fruit." Your disqualifying yourself so easily accusing the Lord's annointed. Stop judging these people.

You said, "I choose not to mix up my walk with God with a bunch of eastern teaching, dietary rules, spiritualism and letting humans take the place of God."

There's no Eastern teaching, not a molecule. when Christ talked about "The eye of the body" was that Eastern? The 'third eye'?
No "dietary rules" not a one - not uno -okay?
"Spiritualism?" every other word in the New testament is 'Spirit' or 'spirit' so ask God to show you what that's all about. You know him, "God is a Spirit" as the word says.
"Humans taking the place of God" I will concede the problems that occurred in this area which I believe have been corrected for the most part. Humans err, what can you say? I know people have been hurt but that's what happens in this frail human state we're in. I've been hurt and wronged big time in the fellowship. I'm guilty in my own sin so egregiously that I dare not judge a single man or woman - lest I be judged.

[larry_bobo]

If you are unable to see the Egyptian pagan influence on the pyramids, I really don't know what to say. I'm probably not helping much by causing you to defend their origins as being from the one true God. I really don't want to entrench you any further. Maybe it's just a point we are not going to agree on at this time.

You express a classic LW line of thought that if you disagree doctrinally with those who are assumed to be annointed, you automatically disqualify yourself from having any input. Or to put it in walk terms, you must have a bad, rebellious, or deceived spirit. The sad thing is that many of the later admitted problems in TLWF could have been avoided if there was a willingness to listen to those who were only trying to help at the time. In my 30+ years in TLWF, I saw it happen over and over.

All of us are searching the scriptures to find the best way to know and obey God. I was also hurt in TLWF. What I've since learned is that the areas that caused me the most damage were not God after all. God only has our good in mind. We may suffer for a season, but in the end, it's always for our good. It's unfortunate to have to suffer for the wrong reasons and then have there be no benefit for it. From my experience, that was mostly the case in TLWF.

I think much of the spiritual oppression that is a mainstay of life in TLWF is rooted in opening your spirit in a 'eastern religion" type of way and givng the enemy access that he normally would not have. You don't have to mechanically open your spirit to obey God's commands. It's your obedience, not higher spiritual vibration, that causes the Lord to become more real and the enemy to flee.

I mentioned tongue-in-cheek on an earlier post that my years in TLWF were a waste of time. I do believe, as JRS did, that God doesn't waste a fragment of our lives that are given to Him. For being a super mature son of God who looked down on other Christians, I grew more spiritually the first couple of years after I left TLWF than I had the previous 20 years by just connecting with other parts of the body. I began to realize that my backwoods "Deliverence" lifestyle was missing some pieces.

Officially, TLWF is only a part of the overall body of Christ. In reality, they are very isolated and controlling within their ranks and scoff at submitting to other leaders in the church - to do so would be submitting to Babylon. On the flip side, it's a hard sell to get people spiritually connected and obedient to Marilyn in order to enter the Kingdom. It simply does not bear witness to the Holy Spirit within them.

[now_what]

I wanted to weigh in about the Pyramidology topic. I have read the first 5 of Rutherford's books and he was no Eastern Mystic in any sense of the Word. There is at least one reference to the Great Pyramid in the Bible in Isiah 19:19

In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. (KJV)

Now this verse in Hebrew when you add up the numerical sum of the Hebrew characters gives you the baseline length of the pyramid in pyramid inches which is a measurement very close to our English or American inch, and derived from the Sacred Cubit measurement of Old Testament fame.

I saw Rutherford speak at a service in Anaheim and there is no doubt in my mind that he was an extraordinary Christian scholar. Larry you should try reading just his first book before you shut this down as extra-Biblical, or mixed with eastern thought.

It would be beyond an extraordinary coincidence if this verse is not referencing the Great Pyramid. As if you stand on top of that Pyramid and look east and down from the plateau you see the rich Nile Delta before you...literally the "midst," of the land of Egypt. If you turn west you see the beginning of the expanse of the Sahara desert. In the midst and on the border are an apt description of this location.

And like the Bible that comes to us from antiquity, shrouded in mystery, the Pyramid is the only remaining wonder of the original 7 great wonders of the ancient world, and will be standing thousands of years from now when our skyscrapers have fallen to dust. I find it instructive that God would speak to us via the written word, and through a building, perhaps the two most distinctive activities of human beings.

Just like the Bible is the king of all books by far, so is the Pyramid the king of all human building activities, nothing old or new is close. Couple that with a passageway system that without a degree of mathematical doubt portrays the giving of the law on Mt Sinai, the Resurrection and enough detail for Rutherford to have predicted WW1 accurately, I think within a month, well before it began, when all the world thought war was a thing of the past infancy of man.

Paul Trowbridge

[now_what]

I also want to agree in just about all points with the poster Patrick. Here is my take of things right now and my view of my time in the LWF:

I am finding that much of the direction and teaching after John is coming forth in me in a demand in my relationship to my wife that everything, or most everything God is doing or requiring of me is in direct relationship to my wife and her sons in relating to them...very much an illustrated sermon that the "Kingdom is Relationships."

Since I have been married and ongoing right now is the exposure in me of an almost violent independence and lack of submission to anyone. There IS a male spirit that can only be broken in relationship to the female (IMO), and visa versa.

The "Walk," from John and onward did supply me with foundations and tools to build those relationships (which is then building the kingdom). It is a misinterpretation of what God is requiring and doing that is the problem.

Much like the early church wanted to hang out in Jerusalem and have a happy "Jews Only" "hey Peter tell us again of when you walked on water." But God wanted the whole earth to hear the Word and smashed their little myopic vision and that is still happening now.

I don't know where it leads, but examining the Walk and JRS and even Gary and Marylyn seems more and more like looking at the afterbirth and complaining it does not look like a baby. I don't mean by that to say that is all the LWF is about, it could be it did bring sons to birth and is bringing sons to birth but I think many of us were becoming stagnant, static, maybe too comfortable, and the word was becoming a theory.

People need to take the tools given and go live it now, see if these things are true. I have had my complaints about things we did in the Walk and abuses of authority, but they fade into insignificance when I view my own lack of maturity and growth. Only I am ultimately responsible for MY walk with God.

And I have no criticism of Gary and Marilyn or present leadership, I am not their judge, if they gave me the tools and maybe they were not washed and painted, or handed to me "just right," then my focus is not correct. We were given the tools. In fact IMO, if anyone, anyone just did the repentance that John preached before every school of prophets, or ministry school, just did that for a year, then they would have an extraordinary walk with God.

I am trying, but it is the hardest work on the earth, and perhaps why few can stick it out until that work is done.

And will someone please at least reach the level of moving in the gifts and the love that we all saw JRS move in before they get so into criticizing his work? I have yet to encounter anyone that moved in what John moved in and moved in the love he moved in also.

Whatever problems he had in the flesh, he did have a "walk with God." I think it is time to have more grace for one another.

Paul Trowbridge

[larry_bobo]

Hi Paul,
I skimmed through Adam Rutherford's first two books back in the 1970's, but I don't really remember anything. Have you seen this from Wikipedia under the Great Pyramid?

"A religious alternative theory known today as "pyramidology", first put forward by John Taylor in 1859 with the book The Great Pyramid: Why Was It Built and Who Built It? [28] and championed by early Great Pyramid explorer Charles Piazzi Smyth (1819-1900), claims that the Pyramid is somehow the product of divine Christian revelation, planned by Hebrew prophets who influenced pharaoh Khufu at least 700 years before the birth of the Hebrew patriarch Abraham. Expanding on these ideas, 20th century believers, most notably Adam Rutherford, David Davidson, televangelist Dr. Gene Scott, Larry Pahl, and Peter Lemesurier, maintain that the Pyramid passage systems, largely based on Charles Piazzi Smyth's calculations, when measured with the arbitrary 'Pyramid inch', or 'Sacred Cubit', contain a prophetic timeline which reveals the date of creation by Yahweh the Hebrew God of the Bible, the building of the Pyramid, the Hebrew exodus from Egypt, and the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ among other religious and world events.

Beyond these writers and the devout followers of the concept, there is virtually no support for pyramidology in either the mainstream or alternative communities. The existence of the 'pyramid inch', of which pyramidology draws its sole support, was summarily discredited early on by Egyptologist Sir Flinders Petrie (1853-1942), who found the measurements and calculations of Smith and his use of the 'pyramid inch' to be inaccurate to such a degree as to categorically reject the theory altogether; a conclusion fully supported by the scientific community to this day. Initially a supporter of pyramidology, Petrie states: ""there is no authentic example, that will bear examination, of the use or existence of any such measure as a ‘Pyramid inch,’ or of a cubit of 25.025 British inches."[29] Despite the authoritative evidence to the contrary, pyramidologists then and now remain unwavered in their belief, a phenomenon which even in the late 1800s prompted Petrie to coin the term 'pyramidiot'[30]. Petrie summarized his contention by concluding: "It is useless to state the real truth of the matter, as it has no effect on those who are subject to this type of hallucination. They can but be left with the flat earth believers and other such people to whom a theory is dearer than a fact."[31].

Any thoughts? It's still facinating to me how it is perceived in TLWF as a personal attack to question doctrines. I attend two weekly Bible studies with men from several churches. We disagree on many points of doctrine, but still deepy love and respect each other. It is possible to agree to disagree agreeably.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[larry_bobo]

As far as marriages are concerned, I think God has rigged it so that apart from Him, it's impossible to relate properly to each other. I heard a facinating statistic from Doug Weiss (an internationally known marriage counselor - been on Good Morning America, Oprah etc, - we attend the same church) which is that the divorce rate among Christian couples who pray together on a daily basis is one tenth of one percent. He conducts marriage seminars around the world and getting couples to pray together is the primary goal. You would think a world renown PH.D. could come up with something more profound.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

My wife and I have had a daily time together for several years now, and I am amazed at how effective it is. Roles seem to naturally fall into place and God gives you a genuine love for each other. Perhaps it seems like an over-simplification, but just spending personal time with God and then doing the same with your spouse opens the door for a transformation by exposure that is way beyond anything you could accomplish on your own trying to implement somebody's teaching.

[patrick]

larry_bobo said, "Both JRS and Rutherford would be labeled false prophets." <u>You</u> are labeling them that correct? That's a personal attack by you on their character. That's what I'm responding to.

larry_bobo said, "Since when do Christians get their insight from pyramids, eastern religion and New Age thought?"

That's not a doctrinal dispute that's a completely false accusation. Who's dong that? Consider the whole counsel of God. You're acting as if JRS hung everything on the great pyramid and you keep mentioning eastern religion which is downright silly. Why so over-the-top? Anyone remotely familiar with John's teaching know's it is firmly grounded in the scriptures. Heck, I've sent This Week's to the most straight-laced Midwestern folks you can imagine and they loved it. Their response was saying how fundamental the teaching is. Just because John didn't stop at the pure milk of the Word doesn't mean he was New Age. What are you even talking about there?

Why didn't you respond to the points in my post? Please re-read and answer those issues such as Christ defeating Satan and ushering in the Kingdom? Since these things aren't apparent - by your standards he's leading the charge as a false prophet. If Jesus brought Satan down why is he going to be bruised under 'our' feet? Or did JRS have it exactly right: it's a provision from the Lord which we execute in His name. The scriptures also say Touch not my annointed and do my prophets no harm. So what does happen to Satan and his hordes when they assault men of God like John or any man of God? In Judas' case it says 'Better he was not even born.' So there's a consequence when Satan does anything against a man of God. As far as I'm concerned the Lord brought Satan down and so has every child of God Satan has ever assaulted.

[themissinglink]

Aloha Paul, and mahalo for bringing articulate description. I was trying to find a search word to find that scripture in Isaiah. Interesting, that 1919 is when John was born. I won't forget it again! PS the 3-fold Witness is fulfilled in the Stars.....God being the Architect of all, I find it insulting to Him to give the ape such credit for anything but puny counterfeiting attempts at distraction. God warned about settling for counterfeits, and commanded us to believe for double portions. The enemy must be dwarfed into the insignifance of the part he really plays in relativity to the Glory of God.

Malama pono, Link

[larry_bobo]

Patrick,
If you will reread what I wrote, I said Deuteronomy 18:21 says they would be labeled as false if what they predidcted did not happen. You have every right to believe it did. For me, what I heard John prophesy many times that would take place during the 1970's, I never witnessed happening.

I do believe Jesus defeated Satan on the cross and that it is a victory that needs to be applied by our obedience to God. I just don't believe we had to wait until 1979 for John to open the door so we could do so. To me, it's a heart issue, not a date issue. Anyone at anytime after Christ, could have applied the victory won on the cross. I don't see any scriptual basis for a door opener apostle before we have access to the Kingdom of God.

If I had not felt John's word was fundamentaly sound, I would not have spent the years I did in TLWF. Don't assume I think everything he was and did was wrong. John deeply loved the Lord and God's people. I just don't think TLW is doctrinally infallible.

If you think about a particular denomination, there are areas you think they have right, and other areas you would disagree with. That's the way I view TLWF. It's not a personal attack. Most of us, if we are continuing to spiritually grow, don't agree with ourselves over time. We don't hate ourselves for doing so. Who knows, maybe someday I'll get a revelation of sprouts, Deepak Chopra and pyramids. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[winterland]

Greetings dear Link: There is a wonderful series called "The Heavens Declare" by J. Preston Eby

I'm SURE you would enjoy looking it over. Just "google" the title and author.

Blessings from Canada. Winterland

[themissinglink]

Yes, he is pursuing and articulating well the same understanding conveyed well by Bullinger and Seiss about 150 years ago. It is a marvel, isn't it? Where no hands can erase. Aloha, dear Winterland, ~Link

[dont_walk]

Hello. I am also "PSYCHE ABUSED, and DONT WALK
RUN FAR FROM TLWF".

At at Friday night service at CLW back in probably 1996, or so (I don’t know because I was not there), two lists were read from the pulpit. The first being the names of people who had left the church, but people were to pray for them. The second was the list my name was on. I don't know who else was on that list. I had left the church 4 years prior. I was still a threat? Yes, because I had a voice and I knew a lot of people. I knew they probably thought I was a Nephilim, but to have someone tell you that you were actually called out during a service - wow! I must say it made me PROUD!!!!!!! I love the fact that I am so totally separate from the Pharisees that stood as my Judge, and even more relieved in the truth that God is my Judge and not them.

I was a young girl when JRS, blarg, I hate those initials, declared not only Martha to be an "N" word, but also his sister in Washington, Iowa, and his daughters.

When I was 9 y/o, I would be back in the nursery with my baby brother there at South Gate, the speakers would be on so you could hear the word. I remember being in tears on many occasions, terrified by this scary man. I used to wonder why my parents would make me go there. I finally left when I was in my 30's, maybe 40's. It took me a long 4 years to finally make the break after having been in it for 30.

I don't recall John Robert Stevens ever being a good man.

[fresno]

"Don't Walk's" point is one that gets overlooked in the theological debate about whether JRS' teachings were orthodox enough. The spiritual and emotional toll exacted on the hundreds of people who participated in this "fellowship" was devastating. Sycophants were rewarded with positions of authority, and their power was wielded recklessly in many cases. The Hargraves became masters of spin control and revisionists to cover up countless sordid details that threatened not only to undermine their position, but the credibility of their entire authority structure. If a church does not contribute to a person's spiritual or emotional well-being, but is instead detrimental to the point where it takes victims years to recover from the psychic and emotional abuse they incurred at the hands of their shepherds, perhaps it's better that its numbers gradually diminish so it can at least fulfill the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm."

[now_what]

larry bobo

Rutherford dealt with Petrie's objections in one of his books, and utterly devastates his argument by simple math and geometry, it is laughable the error that Petrie allowed himself out of sheer bias.

Petrie was simply the main Egyptologist of his time when it was all the archaeological vogue, so he is considered THE authority on all things ancient Egypt. He did not know one tenth of what Rutherford knew about the Great Pyramid. Kind of like a biologist venturing opinions on high-energy physics.

It seems for some reason he was personally offended that the Pyramid could portray a Revelation of God or Christ, not the first or last "scientist," peculiarly affected with an aversion to finding God in this creation. If you are interested you would have to read Rutherford's books and draw your own conclusions. References to worldly scientists with a built in anti-God or at least anti-Revelation agenda is about equivalent to believing Yasser Arafat and Jimmy Carter and Al Gore deserve Nobel Prizes. I don't have to tell you the world system is corrupt and biased, so are many of its scientists from Darwin onward.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Hi -nice to read posts from so many intelligent people. Odd to see some defending John Robert Stevens so dilligently. He did (absolutely did) have private tapes which only the 'safe' members of the walk or the living word fellowship were allowed to hear, which could explain why some people today still think that he was this wonderful man of God. Maybe those people (the ones who still think he was a wonderful man of God) were not 'safe' enough to have heard those tapes, let alone even be aware that they existed. What he spoke about on those tapes was disturbing &amp; bizarre.

[dont_walk]

truth is a choice:

I do believe many of the posters in here were considered as you say "safe" people. I do believe many of the posters here were in the restricted meetings where those tapes were played. I do believe many of the posters here were privy to all that crap. I do believe much of what was on those tapes was disturbing and bizarre.

I also believe many of the posters who you think are defending Stevens are coming at it more from a philosophical standpoint rather than a love and admiration of the man. Please, I hope I am right.}}

[dont_walk]

I also wonder at the seeming admiration of some of the posters here towards Stevens. It confuses me, knowing what I know. I was behind the “locked doors” of those restricted meetings. I understand that theoretically what he was teaching was way out there and really cool stuff, but why couldn’t / can’t people see that even from the beginning he was lining up the players for all his moves. He used the word to gain power and control. He taught others, the one’s he kept around to do his bidding, to do the same and 10 fold. He was a very effective leader.

[truth_is_a_choice]

L.O.L. Yeah, most of the people posting here seem pretty informed &amp; intelligent. I just had to laugh when you said;
"I also believe many of the posters who you think are defending Stevens are coming at it more from a philosophical standpoint rather than a love and admiration of the man. Please, I hope I am right.}}"
The - "please, I hope I am right" part. -me too!
This is about the most interesting thread I've seen on the subject. Because -really, I am probably a generation away from being able to sit in on these restricted meetings. My mother had SOME experience with it though. So I'll have to show her this thread later (when she visits this evening -I hope). With in my generation of the living word fellowship followers -most people would totally deny these restricted tapes, &amp; many would do so honestly because they do not know they exist. I've never met any one else who actually admitted it. I was there as a child between the early 80-s &amp; the early 90-s. (a devoted follower for about a decade). Being so young I did not understand until much later, by then John had died &amp; the "open to everyone" services were bizarre enough for anyone who was not totally deaf to be afraid. But -just enough, if that makes sense. Because people excuse it away as grief. But -at that point they were crying out to dead people &amp; I'll have to look back on my old 'this weeks' to be sure -but i'm pretty sure there was some crying to John to rent the veil (that Jesus already rent -&amp; only he could do so) from the other side. Thanks so much for the response, its nice to hear from someone who knows about the earlier things. I have to admit some of the things discussed on here are a bit beyond me, but they probably would not be to my mother. She has left the 'fellowship' as well.

[dont_walk]

I don't know why people refer to it as the "fellowship". We weren't allowed to fellowship. If we had questions about a WORD we were supposed to talk to our pastor about it. If we wanted to drink, smoke pot, or have sex, we could do that with whomever we wanted, as long as we didn't tell anybody, except our pastor.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Now you got me crackin' up!!
To be frank -I don't know what to call it. When i was in it -it never really had a name, but it was a group. Now they have thier own website &amp; I THINK they are calling themselves the 'living word fellowship'. Before that it was sometimes "the walk" -i'm sure you know all of that. in junior high i prided myself on my church not having a name &amp; being 'non denominational' (not religious) -my friends thought i was weird &amp; arrogant (I was -i just didn't know it yet).
I was in 2 of the churches that have since disbanded -one in Gainesville Florida, then one near Detroit Michigan. (my ma may have first heard of John when we were in California. -not sure). But when we first arrived in Detroit -they were really calming down, removing the electric guitar &amp; all...My friend's parents gave the impression that a bit before we arrived they had a bit more of a party atmoshpere, in church. i don't know for sure, when we were there they installed a piano &amp; moved the electric guitar guy to the back of the worship focus- thus emphasizing his emerging bald spot -as though he simply had no where else to play because age had caught up with him &amp; he was a 'good man' now/then. Now that i am in my 30-s -i don't consider this aging gracefully (not that theres anything wrong with it).

[truth_is_a_choice]

-he ended up on stage under this spotlight that shined directly on his head, &amp; everybody always talked about how he was this saved rock &amp; roll guy (the 80-s) ...they also discussed his missing hair, a lot. The rest of the congregation had thier backs to him as they were gathered around the piano during worship.

[changedagain]

Do you know if the bald spot was ever healed?

[truth_is_a_choice]

So sorry about the breaks in thought - i am going somewhere with it, just have a 2 year old in a big boy bed who thinks that means he has the run of the house &amp; does not have to sleep.

[dont_walk]

Put the boy back in the crib so you can finish your tale, please. }

[truth_is_a_choice]

changedagain : too funny
actually the point i was trying to make is that we were all so deeply decieved &amp; they were hiding so much of the 'word' from us by not allowing us to hear these foundational teachings, that they did not have to worry about us fellowshipping together -or even talking about the word. But my mother (who is quite the young ma) thought his teachings were really cool, &amp; my aunt -they brought me into it. By then (the time i was a teenager) the church just tried to control our behavior &amp; relationships with in our own families. For example, the retired rocker (guitar guy) was accepted because he retired that lifestyle. Quite true that can seem harmless, &amp; would be evident in many a christian's life (a change of lifestyle) but the involvment was not loving -but it was over bearing in some sort of (so it seemed) attempt to make decisions for people. I liked the guitar guy, but by then the trend was a much more polished look. Some sort of legalistic attempt to appear more refined than any other christians (so it seemed to me as a teenager). One time 2 bikers came to the church to check it out, the 'brothers' basically chased them away- to the point where i noticed &amp; thought it was creepy. But they really didn't have this new look. The 'word' wasn't trend setting or appaering cool in any way by then-it was just a very suddle twist on the bible. -depending on thier current mood. They were constantly having meetings with my mother telling her to submit to my stepfather (who was a -how do i say -bizarre person). &amp; they had a meeting with me calling me a jezebel because i was becoming this typical teenager who was starting to wear some inappropriate clothing &amp; liked to flirt with boys. But the talk they had with me had nothing to do with showing me how to respect &amp; love myself -it did not resemble the way Jesus would speak at all. It had everything to do with me messing with thier ministry by my momentary misconduct -thats why the name Jezebel was applied. So by then they ruled &amp; reigned in people's lives by allowing them to fellowship &amp; discuss the word with eachother all they wanted, but by controlling how much of the word was heard, by who &amp; controlling how people related to eachother. (or attempting to -to the degree that it was possible). However, my perception may be a bit different because of my age at that time. They certainly related to the adults differently. So my querry would be; my aunt who is still in it, did &amp; does she ever hear these secret tapes? But how do i ask some one like her a question like that?

[truth_is_a_choice]

big boy bed, because he is a mountain climber...no crib to help me out. I've nevr seen any kid climb this much (&amp; he is actually only 16 months old) -scares me.
yah eh, if i left the tale like that ...one would be thinkin' i'm nippin' a bit.

[larry_bobo]

now what,
Thanks for the tip about Rutherford's books. I'll check them out. Something I did not know, after doing a little research, is the uniqueness of the Great Pyramid as opposed to the many other pyramids that are basically tombs. I was having a difficult time connecting the tomb of a pharoh who worshipped pagan gods with anything to do with the true God.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Winterland http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif Why do you supose the main pastor pushing the intercession on the prayer for the death of Jezebel felt it necessary to instead of answereing your question belittle you. By trying to tell you you were not spiritual enough to be there? Did it ever occur to you that the holy spirit prompted you to ask that question?I believe thats really what was going on and if this main pastor would of asked God why someone like you would ask this question this pastor might of tapped in to the saving grace of God. God is funny like that you know He loves to take the weak and meek to wake up the arougant and all knowing.Thank you Jesus, you are God's grace and we will need you forever more. By the way this is trueth is a choice's mom.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Winterland http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif Why do you supose the main pastor pushing the intercession on the prayer for the death of Jezebel felt it necessary to instead of answereing your question belittle you. By trying to tell you you were not spiritual enough to be there? Did it ever occur to you that the holy spirit prompted you to ask that question?I believe thats really what was going on and if this main pastor would of asked God why someone like you would ask this question this pastor might of tapped in to the saving grace of God. God is funny like that you know He loves to take the weak and meek to wake up the arougant and all knowing.Thank you Jesus, you are God's grace and we will need you forever more. By the way this is trueth is a choice's mom.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Fresno, You addressed don't walk's point in the theological debate about whether jrs teachings were orthodox enough.The spiritual and emotional toll exacted on the hundreds of people who participated in this fellowship was devastating. Sometimes if we look @ the fruit of a ministry instead of just the theological aspect. It can reveal alot more about the ministry in general.I BELIEVE THIS WEBSITE IS THE FRUIT. I also believe that if we were to get into where the walk or living word is @ now that it would be some pretty bitter fruit.By the way this is truth is a choice's mom. I do believe that God sent Jesus to us because we as people were more important than any theology. We could spend forever trying to decifer what of jrs's teachings wereright before God.I do sugest taking every verse that jrs or gary &amp; marilyn expound on and to pray about it cause God is faithful and be sure to read the scripture above and below thier quoted scripture.Because God answers us by His word esteemed with fasting and prayer.Lets unleash the Grace of God in our lives, and believe in His faithfulness. And I pray that God protect all of us by His wrath in Jesus name amen.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Don't Walk, it is so tragic that you were exposed @ such a young age to such hatred division and distention by your church leaders. God forgive us as parents for exposing our children to such stuff.I'am truth is a choice's mom. I learned alot from my daughter because God speaks alot through inocent children. God allowed us to be on the fringes of the living word. Thank God that was ugly enough. And when I learned these people were truly crazy as God gives people over to thier own demise, I became quite afraid that they might try to capture my DTR. or me like what you here about cults so I knew the kind of persons they don't like and proceeded to try and convince them that was who I really was I believe God lead me to do this this way. And it kept us safe I do believe. I was allowed to listen to one of those restricted tapes and because I promised to not speak of what was on it I won't get specific. But I never promised to not say what my opinion was of that tape.When I told them it was abusive with sexual conintation of the vulgar degree ofcoarse I wasen't allowed to listen to any more of them which was a God send I'm sure cause I could whatch reality T.V. and basically be exposed to the same thing that was on those tapes.Nothing of God on those tapes.Just a bunch of arougant cotrol freaks taking thier irrational frustration and insecurities out on God's people. God protect us and heal us by your wrath in Jesus name.

[now_what]

larry

It might interest you that I think it may be that there are 3 basic witnesses of the Word or the plan of God for humanity. Think of Bullingers "Witness of the Stars, then the Bible and then the Great Pyramid. That man writes, he builds and he scientifically investigates the form and meaning of the universe are probably the unique qualities of man alone. Now it may be that the revelation of God via the heavens or stars corresponds to spirit, the written word corresponds to soul, and the Pyrimid corresponds to the Physical. Anyway something of a thought about this, for what it is worth.

[themissinglink]

Indeed. and Larry, I appreciate the tenderHeart that is God's within you to humble yourself when His Spirit brings confirming conviction. (as well as the carefulness that desires to seek it out.)

I have been thinking about how poignant of God to hide in such VERY plain sight, a sign of His faithful intentions to the household of faith, right in the midst of captivity to occur as He promised in Gen 15: 13-14 "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and wil serve them, and they will afflict them 400 years. and also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions"---- How Divine to set in the pyramid that assurance of the ultimate "Feast in the presence of my enemies"! Awesome! and somewhere it is written that ultimately, the children of Egypt will be restored to agreement with the children of Israel. Do you know where that scripture is by any chance? I tried in vain to find a search word to help me find it!

I am so grateful when what HAS been accomplished and invested in our spirits, continues to PURSUE the High calling for which we were set apart. Mahalo for demonstrating the fruit of the Good Seed hidden in us by God's Grace. May we never relent in abandoned pursuit, nor be taken off course by pointless negativity.

Again, I highly reccommend reading "Face to Face with God" by Bill Johnson, for a real sense of the Tribe from which we were all mutually privileged in the center of God's heartbeat. It is another golden seal and stone in the Path that has faithfully been crafted by His Hands through yielded vessels.....a Red Carpet laid at the Master's feet, formed of our surrendered hearts, flowing to His Throne! Bless you all with reckless abandon for His Presence, and an undiverted gaze, intently set on the Prize and reward of our very Graced journey!

And God bless the faithful servants who played their part with no other desire than His Glorification in our midst and His good pleasure in their hearts---whether honored by man, or spoken ill, fear of man did not deter the Fear of the Lord that granted Wisdom's increase and Grace boldly received from His Throne. May the honor God grants them, abide abundantly in my heart for them all. ~and may we be found, by the unrelenting baptism of Fire that we CHOOSE to embrace, --good company as well among them, to God and abiding in His Presence without measure.

Profound Sabbath to us all this day, Link

[dew_drop]

Greetings,to all who Love The Lord,
Over 18 0r 19 years ago when the ministry of the church was calling special services &amp; began speaking to all of the member of local churches - that we should willingly &amp; cheerfully give ourselves &amp; our free wills up &amp; surrender our wills to the ministry, so as to submit all things to them concerning our lives &amp; surrendering ourselves &amp; our wills (as obeying the Lord) to obey the will of the ministry &amp; the decisions that they would make over our lives for us in life, encouraging us that we should trust the ministry with our life as trusting God Himself. - This act of surrender was taught as being the obedience of the faith that was once &amp; for all given to the Saints &amp; further that to present ourselves in this way to God , as a living sacrifice was our acceptable service of Worship.

This call and message spoken from the pulpit to all the local members of the congregations to enter into this commitment of obedience &amp; the presenting of ourselves to God by submitting ourselves to the ministry as a living sacrifice was presented as being voluntary - and it was spoken to us that God loves a cheerful giver and that the head ministry of the church, wanted only those who cheerfully and voluntarily would make this commitment.

Because of many sufferings that my house had experienced prior to this call &amp; were yet suffering the consequences of having been made subject to sufferings thru this kind of thinking- (by the will of others having imposed their will on us, against us &amp; over us) I could not bear the idea of surrendering my life and my well being in life so as to entrust myself to those who were entreating &amp; compelling us to give ourselves to the Lord (to the ministry) in this manner of commitment.

After being present for many services which led to these special services - leading to this relationship &amp; commitment to the ministry , I privately &amp; alone speaking to the Lord -(suffering to not enter into this commitment - for it was like refusing the Lord Himself who had laid down His life for us, who had died for us. To say no - was like refusing &amp; forsaking the Lord like turning away from the Lord .) And I spoke to Lord saying to Him, I could not go on with Him in this , because I could not bear the idea of suffering any further sufferings. And I made a decision that night not to surrender myself or to give up my free will, not to enter into the relationship the ministry was compelling all to enter into as being the will of God for us.

And that night , when I made this decision not to commit myself to the ministry &amp; it was final in me - I felt a great weight being lifted off of me - and at that moment I knew that the yoke I had been carrying was not the yoke of the Lord because He said my yoke is easy &amp; my burden is light. And then I heard the Spirit saying to me - Return to the simplicity you 1st knew in Christ ,when you came to Him, when He 1st called you.

And in this I had at that hour what I needed to be able to keep from entering into what I know today was a form of spiritual bondage, captivity &amp; spiritual enslavement.

Now when the ministry was moving to bring all of the congregation into this commitment of surrender &amp; obedience - the ministry themselves over a prior period of a couple of years had themselves been brought into subjection &amp; had surrendered their free wills &amp; were subjecting themselves to being obedient to the wills of (the new leadership over the church,)some voluntarily others thru subjecting themselves, fearing they might be disobeying Christ, by not surrendering their free wills to those who had come to believe they were the top spiritual authority over all. pg 1of5
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[dew_drop]

page2 of 5}}}
And the new leadership - was presiding now over all the ministry as their spiritual head &amp; as the spiritual authority over the ministry that was serving them - as ministries to the church. And now in the call to the congregation - steps were being taken to bring all of the members of the congregations into this same obedience to the new leadership and to the ministry that was serving the new leadership - under this teaching that was being established as a doctrine of obedience.

This is a part of how we, like a multitude of children , were led into spiritual captivity and away from the Lord, because of our love for the Lord not understanding the difference yet between the voice of men and the voice of the Lord.

I started now - the 1st steps toward being free, &amp; of taking up my life and it would be many years in seeking the Lord and looking to Him before I would understand why &amp; how the things that took place among us as brethren could have taken place &amp; why it was possible for these things to take place.

It is written of our Lord that although He was a Son, He learned obedience thru the things He suffered.

The apostles of the New Testament were warring to establish the Truth - fighting against forces that were standing against Christ.The early apostles were set to break every chain &amp; to bring down every strong hold and every lie that stood against Christ . To bring down Every lie that would keep the Church from knowing the Truth. From knowing Christ, Who leads us into to having a relationship with our Father who is in heaven.

Their weapons were not carnal - and the war they were fighting was not against flesh &amp; blood, not against people. But it was against spiritual principalities &amp; powers &amp; spiritual forces that had been warring against mans relationship with God - since Cain killed his brother Able.
Read all of Matthew 23

God had been sending prophets, scribes &amp; wise men, thru out the generations and finally God sent His own Son - to make known the Father, the heart of the Father, the will of the Father &amp; to make known &amp; to express God's love for us . God loved the world so much that He gave His Only Begotten Son, so that who ever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Christ died to set us free. Free from what ?
In Matthew Chapter 23 - Christ was in the temple speaking to the multitude &amp; to His own disciples pointing out publicly that the Scribes &amp; the Pharisees had seated themselves in the chair of Moses.

Moses was the last man that God appointed on earth that men who were spiritually related to one another - should obey him. They were from the generations of those who had been led out of captivity and slavery - out of Egypt by Moses.

So the "Ministry" in the time of Christ - had seated themselves in a chair that God had not seated them in &amp; they were presiding as spiritual authorities over those who were related to one another as a people - being spiritually related to one another- a community of believers, all worshipping One God.

[dew_drop]

Christ made known to all who were present in the temple in speaking to the multitude &amp; to His own disciples - Christ commanded &amp; taught them how they were not and how they were - to be related to one another.

Call no one on earth your Father for you all have One Father, He who is in heaven.

We are not to call, look up to, reverence or relate to any man or woman on earth as if they were God. We are not to honor or exult or love any one on earth with all our heart , mind &amp; strength &amp; with all that is with in us. This relationship alone belongs to God our Father. We are not to have any other gods before Him.

Do not be called Rabbi for One is your Teacher &amp; you are all brothers.

So the Lord in speaking to the multitude &amp; His own disciples commanded them not to accept or take a place of being a spiritual authority - as a Teacher - Christ taught them - they are all to be related as brothers and they all - have One Teacher.

Rabbi - definition - Master,teacher, a Jewish title for those distinguished for learning, authoritative teachers of the Law, &amp; appointed spiritual heads of a community. <Hebrew
rabbi my master < rab great, master + / my

Do not be called leaders for One is your Leader &amp; that is Christ.

Thru suffering we also learn obedience.

Christ made known how we are &amp; are not to be related to one another - and His Word has been preserved and is available to us - we read it , but we did not understand what we were reading, we did not comprehend what He had said - then as a result of not abiding in &amp; keeping His Word we were subject to suffering.

We did not know the difference between the voice of the Lord and the voice of man.

After years of seeking the Lord , looking to the Lord to understand how &amp; why the things that took place, could take place between &amp; among us as brethren - The Word of the Lord started to stand out on the page &amp; we can see where we our selves, each in our own way had errored. Whether we were the ones surrendering or the ones influencing or requiring our brother or sister to submit them selves to us -all were disobeying the teachings &amp; the instructions that Christ gave to those who all have One Father who is in heaven.

So in keeping His Word - we are set free from being spiritually enslaved to what is no more than man made religion. Free so that we no longer are subject to any mans ideas as to what is our acceptable service or worship of God. Free to Come to know God, to love Him &amp; to worship Him as HE IS.pg3 of 5}}}

[dew_drop]

Christ said, no man takes my life, I lay it down &amp; I take it up. This commandment I received from My Father.

The Lord designated what our relationship is to be - how we are &amp; are not to be related to one another. This problem has existed long before our day and Christ Himself was addressing it - in speaking to the multitude &amp; to His own disciples in the temple.

So if we keep the Word of the Lord and do the will of the Lord , it will get right down to every day practical healthy living ...all will have to clean their own houses, do their own laundry, shop for and prepare their own meals - earn their own livings and more - if brothers are relating to one another as brothers - as a brother, you wouldn't be running over to your brothers house to clean, cook &amp; wait on him hand and foot, would you ! and you wouldn't be asking your brother for his permission &amp; his o.k. or looking for his agreement for you to spend time with mom or if it was o.k. for you to date some one or to get married, would you ? You, wouldn't be running after your brother - expressing excessive fondness , &amp; unnatural or inordinate affection for your brother - as if your brother had saved your life and had done something exceedingly special for you, because according to Christ you are all brothers &amp; the Lord alone is to be Lord over all.

So when you take those who you are to be related to as a spiritual brother or sister or take any person , any one who you have reverenced to be seated on the throne of your heart &amp; mind &amp; give only that "special place" to the Father - keeping the Word of the Lord , then these kind of sufferings many of us have experienced -these kind of sufferings that await us further - will come to an end.

From this place of Freedom - we are able to freely worship God together as members of one another in the faith. The obedience of the faith -is in knowing the Truth, we abide in It- we keep the Word of the Lord and follow no other doctrine, gospel, teaching or spirit - no matter who comes teaching or preaching such things or comes preaching any other Christ!

This we also have - we know that, all things work together for good for those who love God &amp; are called according to His purposes.

This is what I received &amp; learned over the period of these last 22 Years.
final page 4 of 4 not 5.}}}

[themissinglink]

Youre right---the accountability was on all the sheep, and I truly believe God took John out to prove to each of us the homework we neede to pursue: IE- an intimate relationship with God Himself, which was the whole point of escort in the Living Word, and something John alone seemed to possess in depth. He had wanted to tear down the whole structure, and leave what was truly of God to resurface before His Face. The $$$ however, were pursued in protecting a "structure" that would have benefited far more by being consumed in Fire as John wished. We ALL had thed same confrontation of a Word calling us into deeper relationship with Him with whom we have to do. I am glad you heard His voice call you into deeper relationship.The structure was only an Ark, and John repeated on many occassions, that it would be disengaged. He refused deliverance on behalf of all coming into a deeper manifestation and relationship. We were all FOUND OUT in what we pursued and settled for. However, its not over till it's over, and may Mercy triumph over judgment as we find a Hunger for His Presence overtaking the desire for position that dwarfed and retarded the growth of Holy Seed.

[dew_drop]

Dear themissinglink,

I think you were addressing me in your post but you did not say who you were communicating your message to.

You wrote: Youre right---the accountability was on all the sheep, and I truly believe God took John out to prove to each of us the homework we neede to pursue: IE-an intimate relationship with God Himself, which was the whole point of escort in the Living Word, and something John alone seemed to possess in depth.
--------------
I believe that God loves us and he doesn't take us away from one another in life to force us to do His will or to teach us a lesson. The Spirit of the Lord Speaks to us , He doesn't strike us. The power of life &amp; death are in the hands of the Lord. He laid down His life for us, so that we might come to know the Love God has for us. So that we might walk in the light &amp; have fellowship one with one another.

The Holy Spirit , when He comes He will lead us in to all the Truth &amp; He comforts us.
It wasn't because you weren't doing your home work or didn't do your home work.

This thinking and speaking that the sheep were to blame - was not from the Spirit of the Lord.
}}}

[themissinglink]

It is not about "blame" at all! Accountability is something entirely different. God is GOOD, ALL the time! So punitive is not a correct interpretation of homework.

we endure for correction, as in "disciple" having its root word in discipline. It is a privilege of Sonship to endure chastening that brings us into the fullness of Maturity.

My perspective is in the Grace that orders our steps. I think perhaps, if you look at the words from that perspective, it will shed a different Light.

The Lord asked John if he wanted to be released from the discipline of his relationship to us, and John specifically chose a better resurrection, if you will. It is recorded throughout scripture as an embraced principle by many.

There is nothing unkind or unloving in God's dealings. Each one of us, has to choose whether to pursue God's face or not. In that, we are accountable. Sometimes being left to our own devices, escalates the pressure that can produce a breakthrough. However, the same Sun that melts wax will also harden clay. Is the Sun not Good? Is it not unchanging in LovingKindness? Or do we have a measure of accountability in our responses.

He wants freewill offerings, not coerced pawns. The enemy will manipulate, God will not. I think is love is Strong, enduring forever, and He will spare nothing to bring His purposes to fruition. Yet we can miss it. By the Grace of God, we find all things turning for Good, for them who Choose to Love Him, and allow by surrender, the correction and adjustments of our hearts into the perfect will of God which is a Relationship.

It may not be "sweet" Jesus, but it is Awesome, Strong, Faithful and True, and His Goodness is everpresent. It is a choice, not blame or punishment. An opportunity missed can be recouped in repentence and Grace. Yet without repentence, we do not come to see the Kingdom. Blessed are the eyes that see, and that by the Goodness of His unrelenting Faithfulness, which is NOT human nor sympathetic, but always GOOD!

My husband was taken, by the Grace of God that was unrelenting in drawing me to Him....the steps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord. It is remarkable to me, the faithfulness in the wounds of a Friend, that can bring us to actually rejoice on the other side of tears, that all was actually Merciful once processed through repentence unto vision with His Eyes!

(and you are correct that "blame" is not from the Spirit....it also was not what my share was to impart. I hope this helps clarify.)
---blessings~Link

[dew_drop]

<font face="arial,helvetica"><font size="-1">Dear Link,
Why did you open your letter to me in this way,
Youre right---the accountability was on all the sheep, and I truly believe God took John out to prove to each of us the homework we neede to pursue:

I wrote to show why we experienced many sufferings - &amp; because of sufferings, I began looking to the Lord to understand how &amp; why the things that took place among us could have taken place &amp; why such things took place. And I found in the Word that we were as a body of believers in Christ - not relating to one another according to what Christ had commanded &amp; taught both His own disciples &amp; to the multitudes whose gathering place for worship was in the temple, where Christ was speaking.
I wrote to show that a misunderstanding, a deception has existed about spiritual authority &amp; to show that the relationships that were set up &amp; the teaching &amp; doctrine of obedience, that has been established as being the will of God, over the Living Word Congregations - is in direct opposition to what Christ commanded &amp; taught - As to how we are and are not to be related to one another.
Christ spoke - If you are standing at the altar of the Lord &amp; you remember that your brother has any thing against you, you are to leave your offering at the altar, go your way, make peace(be reconciled) with your brother - then return to the altar where you left your offering.
Not because of the wrongs suffered - yet Christ does not discount our suffering, But because of Christ...The Lord does not want to see you at the altar until you have related to your brother - and worked things out between the two of you - until there is peace, if you remember he has any against you. If you are standing at the altar of the Lord with out your brother, it may be that He is going to ask you , where is your brother? And if you have run your brother off &amp; have persecuted him ,destroyed the relationships that are to exist between brothers who all have One Father, have divided husband &amp; wives - have separated children from their parents - speaking evil of your brothers - because they wouldn't honor, support &amp; obey you as being their spiritual authority....
I am just trying to point out that our brethren are being held captive to a lie . I am pointing to the Lord - and to what He has commanded &amp; taught - to show What His will is. With Love,
Dew drop - I'm Sorry for the loss of your husband, my spouse is also with the Lord.
</font></font>

[themissinglink]

I totally agree with you, Dew Drop....and the period you suffered so profoundly, was the period of utter exile that my husband and I---and the child of promise I was carrying--- experienced after John's death. My heart aches and believes for all the sheep, and in no way accept less than restoration in deliverance for them. We have tried to do what we could, and I now accept standing by faith for God's Grace to overshadow the brokenhearted with a Way of Escape in Him. This is why I truly rejoiced at your sharing how He did so for you. Please don't accept an impression that I am not grieved, concerned and in agreement for Mercy to triumph extravagantly over judgment.

I felt what you shared, indicated a timeline that points to the presumption displacing a foundation that became EXTREMELY distorted and self serving. It is very disturbing, as it disrespects what God WAS in and is why I mentioned John's heart was to see it all dismantled to stop the decay that was already beginning. He wanted Fire to consume, test and prove what HAD been pure, by finding it able to be restored after total purge. That never happened, due to very determined intervention.

Sorry I spoke in such apparently terse shorthand. It is my way of talking to myself before God, because He understands between and thru the lines. I have been socially (spiritually) isolated from our former household of faith for so long, that I have not perhaps, great skill in communication of these weighty matters. I certainly do not wish YOU to have ought against me, and trust we shall stand together before His throne in one accord for His purposes to be perfected and accomplished abundantly in each of our willing hearts.

Again, I include myself in my statements of accountability and "homework", as I understand the Lord to have brought me through conviction to a place of real deliverance, and wish it thus for my beloved brethren, whether they are able to receive me at the moment or not. I wish Mercy for I have obtained such abundant Mercy.

Blessings on your dear head, Link

[truth_is_a_choice]

changedagain; did you get my PM? I responded to your last 1. I asked my ma later (because my memory before the teen years is pathetically fuzzy)&amp; she said we arrived in MI in 1985 &amp; the woman &amp; her husband (who you mentioned)were there prior to us, &amp; my step father @ that time used to talk about them -so apparently they were down south at some point. Pretty interesting, how different that might have been to have had a woman shepherding (or however you say) there. Any way -its pretty damp &amp; cold in MI right now, I just had my cable line re-split because moisture was getting into the old split -so I've been having trouble w/ the internet prior &amp; just wondered if you got the PM or not. Did you know any of the people I mentioned? -hope I didn't offend. -take care.

[truth_is_a_choice]

dew drop;

I like your posts, thanks for sharing.

[dew_drop]

Dear Link,
I don't have anything against you. I have been reading the posts on the fact net here for about 2 years &amp; I decided to enter - because I believe the Lord gave me a responsibility for some things He showed me back in 1967 or 1968 in a dream which was no ordinary dream &amp; he showed me 3 things taking place - but he didn't tell me what it was I was to do - the second thing that he showed me was 3 mountains and they were beautiful (so beautiful) &amp; there was a love for them that was overwhelming &amp; I was lifted up and was brought near one of the mountains so I could see it closer - to see one mountain was to see all three - because they were all the same except for their size. And I saw there was blood flowing down from their tops ,flowing slowly down their crevices - and they were breathing, alive &amp; living but they were slowly bleeding to death. This is the 2nd thing I was shown. And after I had this dream I could not remember if there was 3 or if there was 2 mountains - but I know there were 3.
So I have been seeking the Lord over the last 40 years - to understand what he was showing me and why he was showing me this that he showed me - I have come to believe the small mountain was Grace Chapel of Southgate. And shortly after I had the dream - the reason I couldn't remember if there was 2 mountains or 3 - was because one day Grace Chapel would no longer be a place where we would come together to worship the Lord.
But what is most Important in what I saw - I experienced how beautiful these mountains were and how much these mountains were loved by the one who was showing me.
So this is the reason I am here, because I believe the Lord gave me a responsibility for what he was showing me &amp; I believe that I was given over many many years later an understanding from the Lord which took me 18 years to receive - put together - and be able to speak what I had received. And the message is found in Matthew Chapter 23. So I am here to help by sharing what I was given, to help bring forth the Kingdom of God. What I wrote about if your standing at the altar of the Lord &amp; you remember that your brother has anything against you , you are to leave your offering at the altar, I wrote this because this is what Christ taught his disciples - one of many many things he instructed them in - in how they were to relate to one another. And I believe the day is coming when we will all be abiding individually &amp; collectively in Christ and we will be keeping the Word of the Lord. And we will clearly see Him in the Word and know His voice. Then shall we know, when we follow on to know the Lord. We are to help one another. With Love,Dew Drop ps, Hello,Truth is a choice, glad we are all here.
}}}

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dear Missing Link;
Hi. I have read some posts &amp; am curios about somethings, if you don't mind answering? It appears to me that you may have known &amp; loved &amp; still love john robert stevens. i did not know him personally &amp; rarely to never heard a word straight from him. but i know the legacy he left behind.
Did john call actual people nephillim (instead of warring in the spirit -against principalities, or having his personal spiritual warfare at home at the feet of Jesus) -did john really, instead openly name people as nephillims in church? Later, i believe nephillim changed to "Jezebel" as I was refferred to before the age of 16, that is the legacy he left his students -that i know of. Is john accountable for that?
Did john really pray for the actual death of the mother of his own children -with other church members?
I realize john did have some very above board &amp; scripturally correct (in appearances &amp; maybe thoroughly -i don't know) sermons, tapes or whatever. But he also had secret tapes that nobody in my generation (even the adults) could hear if they were a threat of any kind. I don't think those tapes were scripturally correct. Did you hear any of them? Or were you there for the originals? I know john's ministry was very important to him its all i've ever really heard about him -is how important his ministry was to him, his word. Did he talk about Jesus' word? Do you still have tapes or 'this weeks' &amp; do you still listen to them or read them?
My aunt is still in that church. I was really surprised to hear they allowed a travelling preacher (healing preacher) come to thier church in the recent years, it almost sounded like he was not from thier personal group -but i wouldn't stake anything on it.
I realize that everyone can make mistakes. Though i may have a different take on the whole thing, i wonder who you (&amp; anyone who cares to answer) think john was.
Although the past is passed...I like this scripture, &amp; though it is about a people long ago I look at it &amp; dream that perhaps some CAN still be saved. (read the whole chapter -Romans 11. Alas perhaps it is just a dream?
Romans11:12 "Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel's] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!" (AMP)
May God bless you, in Jesus' name.

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth Is A Choice,
Your last letter was posted &amp; addressed to Missing Link you - said: I realize that everyone can make mistakes. Though i may have a different take on the whole thing, i wonder who you (&amp; anyone who cares to answer) think john was.

John Stevens was the founder and pastor of the Living Word Churches. He died in June of 1983. There are many opinions about John Robert Stevens. John was John, Just like you are you &amp; I am me. His messages are copy written &amp; are available in printed form &amp; also in audio form. The only way for any one to know what he spoke and taught is to actually read his messages to see if he was teaching &amp; preaching the Gospel Of Christ. Because John is absent - then there is no one who can speak for John, that is no one can explain the exact meaning of what John spoke - except - John himself.

There was a lot of controversy that surrounded the early apostles in their day too - some were of Apollo's - some of Paul - some said they were of Christ, some were the disciples of John the Baptist.
You could spend your whole life - reading, listening &amp; studying the messages that John Stevens spoke to see if he was consistent in what he spoke and if the messages he was preaching, teaching &amp; the things he was expounding on revealed, exulted, &amp; magnified the Lord Jesus Christ or if Christ crucified was at the center of all he spoke.
Christ said to Peter, Peter who do you say that I am? Peter responded thou art the Christ the Son of the living God. Christ responded saying to Peter, Truly, truly flesh &amp; blood has not revealed this to you but My Father who is in heaven &amp; upon this rock - I will build my church. The scripture speaks that no man comes to the Father except thru the Son &amp; no one comes to the Son except by the Father. The (Rock) the foundation the church is built on - is in the Father revealing Christ to us -
The Truth your looking for doesn't come from asking any man or woman their opinion about who John was or trying to get an answer from them as to whether a person is or was of God or is or was not of God.
The answer to your question, has to come from the Father Himself.
With Love, Dew Drop
}}

[dew_drop]

I was reading many of the postings posted on the board when I came across a posting where - Having a right to a higher confirmation was being discussed may 4, 2004 .
No one really or clearly understood what this statement ( you have a right to a higher confirmation) meant. Because in the 1980's the majority of the brethren were of the same mind believing they could get a higher confirmation from some one they believed was a higher spiritual authority than them selves - if they did not agree on a matter between themselves. And because the brothers bonded themselves together in agreement under this idea that the greatest among them - was their spiritual leader - they also came to believe that what that person said - was the truth concerning the mind of the Lord - so all became subject to the one who was believed to be the greatest among them.
In Matthew chapter 23 Christ made known, taught &amp; commanded "both His disciples &amp; the multitude" - how they were to relate to the Father &amp; how they were &amp; were not to relate or be related spiritually to one another. Christ spoke - all - are to be related to one another as brothers , all having One Father who is in heaven, all have One Teacher &amp; One Leader &amp; that is Christ. Christ 1st had pointed out that the ministry of the scribes &amp; Pharisees &amp; Rabbi was not related right to the Father or to those who came together to learn of God &amp; to Worship God - saying they had seated -"themselves" in the Chair of Moses.
If you carefully look at what The Lord is doing, speaking &amp; teaching in this Chapter - you will be able to see that the teaching that started coming in the mid to the late 1980's and the relationships that were being set up between the members of the congregation &amp; the ministry under the new leadership - are not in accordance with what Christ taught and commanded as to how - all - are to be related to one another.
When 2 brothers disagree - The source of the higher confirmation comes from, Christ Himself. And Christ has given instructions to all who come together to worship God - how they are and are not to be related to one another &amp; how they are to be related to their Father who is in heaven.
We are to abide in the Lord and to keep His Word - we are not to follow any other teaching or doctrine, or voice, no matter who comes teaching or preaching any other Christ. When we abide in Christ &amp; keep &amp; walk in His Word - we are set Free!
Since you were set Free - stay Free in Christ - don't subject yourself again in your relationships with any one, to a yoke of spiritual slavery - Guard your freedom, the freedom Christ died for all of us to have!
Love &amp; Pray for those you find &amp; know in the Light of the Teachings Of Christ - are yet held captive to a lie - that the Lord will deliver them into the Freedom that is in Christ - the freedom that Christ died for all of us to have. - With Love, Dew drop

[spaceman]

I enjoy the posts, thanks guys:

dew_drop:

A few more scriptures that may fit in:

1. Stop trusting in man (Is 2:22 niv)
2. Cursed is the one who trusts in man (Jer
17:5-8 niv)
3. But Jesus would not entrust Himself to them
(Jn 2:24 niv)
4. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey (Rom 6:16 niv)

I love the way God confirms His word, time and time again.

[themissinglink]

THis is all true and sound, but for the record, I must again bare Witness, that what John had intended, and again in the last Word he was able to deliver, iterated that the higher confirmation WAS the Lord, and that we were truly going to need to learn to get that not just once, but truly confirmed BY God, to be led carefully. I was there, and feel very sad for those of you that suffered not just from a distance, but from structures devised in distortion to supplant what instructions clearly provided. That is the irony of choice.

I KNOW John would be pleased with what you are sharing....and my greatest joy in some of these threads, is seeing the true impartation prevailing and surviving, in many cases, without some realizing what good spirit they are sourced from. The Lord did a good and deep work amidst tares growing together. Aloha, ~Link

ps (and only the Lord's angels knows how to sort it out, so it is best to not judge, but to rejoice that your heart beats with the Grace of restoration, and one day we shall KNOW as we are known. My heart LIVES for Visitation and neverending Unfolding. God bless you all in His Tenderness and unerring Determination. Faithful and True.......!)

[themissinglink]

PS--per his final "iteration" he was warning of the great deception his heart broke knowing had and was already overtaking the flock...he was instructing between the lines, (while assuring he meant no disrespect to the Divine Order God was teaching as a pure vision,) that surviving would depend on not falling prey....and being sustained by the Lord Himself to remain objective enough TO pray.

[dew_drop]

Hello Space Man, Thank you for the Scriptural references. The Lord said to the scribes &amp; the Pharisees - You search the Scriptures daily because you think in them you have eternal life but it is they - "the Scriptures" that testify of Me. So the Scriptures themselves are testifying of Christ to us . We can see what the Lord is doing and we can hear what He is speaking - the Scriptures are testifying of Christ. Christ bears witness of the Father and Father bears witness of His Son &amp; the Scriptures Testify of Him - they are a written record of what He did and what He spoke. God says of His Son, this is my beloved Son, "Hear Him." As we behold Him we become like Him. Notice here that it says we become "like" Him. It does not say we become Him.

Dear Link, The Lord said , If you confess "Me" before men, then I will also confess you before My Father who is in heaven. Jesus said those who keep My Word &amp; do My will, these are My mothers, brothers &amp; my sisters.
Now it is important to note here - He doesn't say those who keep "your word" or do "your" will are "your" Mothers, brothers &amp; sisters. If we confess Christ - Christ Himself , He will confess us before "His" Father who is in heaven.
So what I am trying to show here is that we don't bear witness of one another - those of us who keep His Word &amp; do His will - &amp; confess Him before men, He will confess them before the Father.
You don't need to grieve over any one who preached the Gospel of Christ to you, you don't need to defend any one who spoke to you that you should love the Lord Your God with all you heart, with a red hot love &amp; that you should also love one another. So we love those who have been given as a gift to us from Christ - those who have led us to Christ,
Those who confess Christ before men - Christ will confess them before His Father - whose reward comes from God. Link, so then it is yours to enter into the joy of the Lord, He cares for us. We came to love God because He 1st loved us &amp; this was made known to us - by those who preached to us the Gospel of Christ - Christ who has made known the Love God has for us having laid down His life for us, that we might come to know God, as He IS. With Love, Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

Agreed. John NOR the Word need to be defended, and it would be an offense to them both for us to be found in such a posture.

I do not, therefore, but indeed stand in honor of His faithful servants for the impartation that comes with such honor of God's movement through earthen vessels. However, discerning the Lord's Body correctly, is only accomplished in the Spirit by revelation, so it is a personal thing to give a cup of water in the name of a prophet.

Again choice, opportunity, and accountability are between each of us and the Lord. Mahalo for your blessing, and may it return on your head 100 fold.

MOST of all, according to our faith, be it done unto us.....and may there be enough faith to stand in the gap AS THE LORD LEADS for those who don't. (and our gifts in these matters, be obtained boldly at the Throne of Grace, and strengthened by reason of exercise!)

Mercy for the merciful, ~Link

[dew_drop]

Dear Link,
Thanks for the blessing! I am so glad you love the Lord,think of the hundreds of thousands of people on the whole face of the earth maybe millions &amp; millions, that love the Lord ! What a great Day the Lord will have - what a celebration, when the Day comes when every knee in heaven, on earth &amp; under the earth is bowing to Christ and every tongue is confessing that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. I always think that the knees that are bowing and the tongues that are confessing, are bowing &amp; confessing that Jesus is Lord because they are giving glory to God not because they have been forced to their knees but they actually behold Him as He is and are honoring Him &amp; praising Him for all He has done for all He has accomplished for us - giving Thanks to &amp; glory to God. It has not entered our hearts and we can not begin to imagine or comprehend what God has prepared for every heart on the whole face of the earth that loves God !

While the dew is still on the roses. with Love dew drop.

[themissinglink]

that song was always my husband, Jerry Beavers, most favorite.....and resonates so deeply in my heart! Lovely thought. I had pictured the dew on the doorknob when I first saw you name...you know, when she failed to rise swiftly to His call, and found the dew remaining from His touch.

Both images mean very much to me, and I rejoice that we are entertaining the Garden phase again, and not the anguish of repentance and slowness of heart missing the hour of Visitation, ---though the latter is probably an abiding by virtue of the first shattering and breaking the fallow ground to bring forth fruitful repentance.

Either way, your choice in name is quite lovely.
Aloha~Link

[dew_drop]

Hello Link,

Does your name start with ? If so, we are directly linked from many many years ago.
Near the water. We were all very very young, when the grass was in flower.

The Lord bless you, I remember how you loved Jerry. Do you know where Charlotte &amp; Luther T. are? They have been on my heart this year and I haven't seen them since the early 70's. Also Cynthia, the tall blond, the Tuckers &amp; so many more ? We together all had some great &amp; wonderful years together worshipping the Lord &amp; growing up together in the faith. Those precious years will remain a part of us for all the days of our lives. Something no one can take away - something that is greater than all we may have gone thru, but then the Word speaks don't be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you. I know, N0 matter where they are, they are walking with the Lord &amp; the Lord has His hand on them in life. With Love, Dew Drop - P.S. Some one you have contact with will know who I am - please keep it confidential - but it is o.k. if they give you my e-mail address. P.S.S. The dew you referenced isn't that in Song Of Solomon?

[themissinglink]

Indeed! Song of Solomon it is!
And I had the privilege of seeing recently the beautiful Cynthia, who remains so after all these years! Yes, the Good Seed and Holy Seasons will remain embedded in the Garden of our hearts and ever bring forth their precious Fruit.

I would LOVE to recall who you are, and am delighted that our hearts knit once again, so easily. Please ask our mutual friend to let me know, if you don't mind. Love, gg

[dew_drop]

"Christ In Us The hope of Glory" (Page 1 of 2)
There is another teaching that has come over the last 18 years that we need to scrutinize, to carefully look at this teaching to examine it in detail. The members have been led to believe that they are becoming Christ in the earth and that those who are leading them are Christ Himself - the head of the Church. Believing this obedience to their spiritual head on earth - is going to bring about the manifestation of Christ Himself in the flesh, on earth. I believe this teaching &amp; thinking is also off the track.
There are references in the Scripture that reference Christ being in us. The Christ in me salutes the Christ in you!
Do not say in your heart who will go down &amp; bring Him up or who will go up &amp; bring Him down, He is nigh you, in your mouth, the heart believes &amp; with the mouth the tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord.
There is One Lord &amp; One Savior Jesus Christ - He is the Only begotten Son of God.
No man comes to the Father except thru the Son. And no one comes to the Son except by the Father. He has been given a name which is above every other name that is named &amp; God has seated Him at His right hand far above all rule &amp; authority. There has no name been given in heaven or on earth by which men can be saved, except the name of Jesus.
So it is clear to me that the Father has honored &amp; seated His Son in a special place that belongs only to Christ "Himself". A special relationship between Him &amp; the Father exists that belongs alone to Jesus Christ
The early church was taught by the apostles that they were seated - with Christ - in heavenly places - they were not told they were seated - "as" -Christ.
(Christ in the earth) - The Word speaks that Christ is seated in heaven at the right hand of the Father &amp; that the heavens must contain Him until every knee on earth, in heaven and under the earth is bowing &amp; until every tongue is confessing that Jesus is Lord to the - glory - of the Father.
Christ in you, the hope of glory. (for Thine is the kingdom, the power &amp; (the glory.)
What is the glory but that every knee is bowing &amp; every tongue is confessing that Jesus is Lord - to the glory of the Father. Glory to God -The Glory belongs to God.

[dew_drop]

(Pg 2 of 2)
Christ is Christ &amp; no one is Christ but Christ. This is the choosing of God - God has honored His Only begotten Son.
The Son Of God spoke, that He only did what He saw the Father doing, He only spoke what He heard the Father speaking. So that men might come to know the Father, the will of the Father and the Love that God has for the world. Jesus said to His disciples - if you have seen Me, then you have seen the Father. Jesus didn't say - I am - the Father!
We did not empty ourselves out and come down from heaven and take on the form of man. We were not conceived on earth as Jesus was conceived.We who believe in Him - were born again.
To the Scribes &amp; the Pharisees Jesus said, " You search the Scriptures daily because in them (in The Scriptures) you think you have eternal life but it (they) that testify of "Me."
If we confess Him before men then He will also confess us before His Father in heaven. He says before My (His) Father, in heaven.He doesn't say , I will confess you before - your - Father in heaven. - The Word speaks "He" is not ashamed to call "us" brethren . He doesn't say "we" call Him brother.
The Father has honored His Son in His relationship with Himself and in His relationship to us, with us and among us.
Christ said, He who keeps My Word &amp; does My will , these are my mothers, my sisters &amp; My brothers. Christ did not teach - that those who keep His Word &amp; do His Will are - your - mothers &amp; brothers &amp; sisters. God has centered every thing in Christ &amp; and God has related every one to Christ His Son as being the Way, as being the Truth &amp; Life. Any One who tries to enter by any other- way - is considered by God as being a thief &amp; a robber..
If we walk in the light even as He is in the Light we will have fellowship with one another.
The wheat &amp; the tares grow up together - it is the angels who separate the wheat from the tares - this is their charge.
(How will you know them? That they have love for one another.)
I think we have to be very careful in how we relate ourselves to the Word, to Christ &amp; to one another.How we relate to Christ - We must be careful not to sit in the place that the Father has honored Him with. Can you see how looking to a man or woman on earth and elevating them to a place of equality with Christ is far from the Spirit of Truth ?
With Love, Dew Drop

[patience2]

In reference to previous posts, we need a timely reminder of the fundamental humanity of our "heroes". For all the adoration given him, JRS was not perfect. He was a remarkable person to be sure but also fought very human maladies in himself. Putting our heroes on pedestals that can’t accommodate reality serves no one well. JRS was not above reproach, but what he accomplished is only made more remarkable when we realize he was one of us - a servant of the Lord.

[dew_drop]

Dear Patience, You wrote in part ...
( In reference to previous posts, we need a timely reminder of the fundamental humanity of our "heroes". For all the adoration given him,)

Christ Himself has instructed His Own disciples &amp; the multitude - in how we are and how we are not to relate or be related to one another and how we are to relate to our Father who is in heaven.We are to love the Lord our God with all our heart , all our mind &amp; all our strength &amp; with all that is with in us and we are to have no other gods, before Him.
We are to love our neighbor as our self. Husbands were taught by the early apostles they were to love their wives even as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for it.
John 1:6 speaks And this is love, that we walk according to His Commandments..
Definition of the word (adore) to render divine honor to; worship as divine. 2. To love or honor with intense devotion.
definition (adoration) - the act of adoring: worship of God or reverence of the divine.
definition (idolize) 1. To have inordinate love for; adore. 2. To Worship an idol.
definition (inordinate)Not restrained by prescribed rules or bounds, immoderate, excessive. definition(idolatrous) 1.pertaining to idolatry. extravagant in admiration. definition(Idolater) 1.An adorer of Images. 2. One who is inordinately fond of some person or thing.
We each need to examine ourselves &amp; our thinking in light of the teachings and instructions and the command of the Lord when He told us how we are &amp; are not to relate or be related to one another, and reverence Him fearing we make sure we are abiding in Him &amp; keeping His Word.
Definition (hero) a person distinguished for valor, fortitude, or bold enterprise; any one as having displayed great courage or exceptional noble qualities.2 In classical mythology, the son of a god, or goddess &amp; a mortal: the eponymous founder of a city or family, as Cadmus, was sometimes locally worshipped as a hero.
With Love, Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

The Scriptures do say, however, that He is the Firstborn of many brethren....

~~~and as the overcomers receive crowns, we will then have something worthy to lay back at His feet, who was the Author and Finisher of the whole process.

The distortions you speak of are of a certainty part of the travesty that occurred, but the Living Word and heart of the Lord expressed through John, was NOT the one who set up that "pyramid" (the human kind) domination....but rather exhorted to not abuse the Escort the Living Word afforded into the Presence of God, and that the intimate relationship to His Lordship was the beginning and the end of the matter.

Much instruction was ignored, and the cross was certainly evaded. Thus each one will stand before God for how they rightfully moved or did not move to the relationship it was all pointing to. (of for holding the Truth in unrighteousness, until it hardened the clay with the same Sun that melted the wax in others ears--and eventually was overtaken by a reprobate mind.)

Our choices... and where we pursue or detante, is now between us and God. John did the part he was to do, and what we did with it, is truly a matter only God can evaluate correctly. And to Him alone, we will all give account. I it brought us to truly seek God's Face, everyone won! If it did not, there will be more to come to assist that need.

May God have mercy on us all.

(Dew-Drop, your doctrinal grasp is correct, yet in no way contradicts John, ...though it certainly has bone of contention with what went down, and followed his demise. (there was a lot of blood on the tracks from leaderships with agendas, which Jerry and I personally witnessed him weeping over in private. I am grateful to identify my heart with him before the Throne of God, and am not ashamed, but honored to be so identified.....he is the only one who could have released Jerry and myself at the hour we needed to be, and much to do with us, as he moved in a vanguard ahead of the hour we all were in. No other ministries had yet come into the humility,the love and brokeness, and the depth and perception of really KNOWING the Lord.

We shall come to know as we are known, and it is for God to reveal that which has been hidden, (It is the Right and Ways of God to hide a matter, and the privilege of Kings to seek it out)---and He surely will do just that as we live before His Face with no other desire but to abide in Him. That gazing intently, as well as abiding in a 7 Day Kiss, I learned from the heart that was in John, that was a very real example to me.

I was privileged to know him in the context of very deep needs and chains being broken in our lives, and to the side of a lot of what many had to move through. I am profoundly grateful for the way God protected me from much, and we were kept to the side to receive what God had for us, so I never suffered some of the things many here had to at the hands of those that never really accepted us, but agreed swiftly to our exile upon his death. But that is not my story, it is theirs.

Mine is Grace Grace, and abundant Loving Kindness from the Lord's hands.....even and especially in the exile that prevented Jerry's sons from much that I could not grasp we were being spared until the Dew on the Door, and the Garden....had Its Way within all I passed through.

I wish and believe as gracious, bountiful and merciful a healing and intimacy as I have received. And live to see that overtake all wounds of my beloved brethren as our Destiny Unfolds His unhindered purposes being Manifest.

God bless you all, and always: Mercy for the Merciful~ Aloha, Link

[themissinglink]

PS--

For the record, John's continual warnings and rebuking of putting him on a pedestal was one of the most consistent threads in his struggle with us. It was the very real evidence of the soulishness that would be the undoing of the Walk, as he also warned....and ultimately lead to the "More false prophets coming out of this move than any prior in history due to the size of the opportunity and Truth committed without our embracing the cross," That word was obviously fulfilled, and therein shows a prophet who spoke accurately. If it hadn't come to pass, John would have been a false prophet. Ironic, isn't it? Yet with the Grace of our provisions in the Lord, who knows how hearts can be turned again.

As for me and my house, I shall gaze intently and ever live in preparation and expectation of Visitations that transform us into His image, even from Glory to Glory as seeing Him as He is, and as He inteded.

It is enough for me to give my whole heart to being led, than to be distracted with throwing rocks, or evaluating another Man's servant. Madness lies therein. Whatever things are beautiful, and noble and have goodness and rightness in them, ---I shall think on these things...which indeed must be the very Ways of God, as only He is Good.

(....and He is Good ALL the time, and Worthy of ALL our attention!) Profound and Intimate Sabbath to us all THIS Day, ~gg

[dew_drop]

Dear Link,
Please bear with me, I purposely am not focusing on any one, who preached to us a living Word by which we were escorted into the presence of the Lord, any one who magnified &amp; exalted the Lord, giving glory to God. Any one who helped fix our eyes on Jesus, who is the author &amp; finisher of our faith, "in God." This one is absent from the body.

And there are those whom the Lord loves, a multitude, that has been led astray &amp; off the track with God. The one you spoke of said, speak the Word only. So if I am pointing to the Word of Christ , to the instructions Christ has given, and illuminating those things which the Lord Himself taught &amp; commanded so that those who are being held captive - might hear the good news and understand the meaning of " Christ died to set us free! " If they hear the Word of The Lord &amp; begin taking steps to walk in the Word - they will also help each other so that not one foot will be left behind.

I am not warring against people on a personal level, I am not warring with people, our war is not against flesh &amp; blood. idoloclastic is (an adjective Of pertaining to the breaking of images.) Remember Jehu , how he was easily recognized from a distance of far away by the way he drove his chariot.
With Love, Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

Amen. and well spoken, my dear sister.
We stand and abide in agreement. Aloha~ Link

[themissinglink]

PS--tomorrow is a special "Cloud" Day for me, as it is my anniversary....I know you were there, and your hearts are a part of ours to be certain. May all our Beloveds on the Other Side rejoice in the unfolding with us, and the extremely extravagant Grace that has caused us to meet in the Air again, my precious Sister, gg

[truth_is_a_choice]

It is true that we should turn the other cheek, and forgive our debtors as we have been forgiven. That is what Jesus taught. That is a major part of how we were instructed to relate to one another. I have been so angry with a person that was very close to me that I did or simply thought of asking God to just take him out (kill him). He was a persistent thorn in my side; he had no care for Jesus. Here I was trying to save this little boy’s life &amp; this person who should have been on the forefront of doing the same thing was tripping me up, putting me down and damaging this little boy (though he did not nor would he realize this today). Quickly, Jesus illuminated my folly to me. I asked for forgiveness from my Lord (Jesus, the Messiah of my life). So, yes I can understand how easily mistakes like John praying for the death of his first wife Martha with a large group in agreement with him can be made. There is something to the spiritual warfare John talked about. As Christians we do need to do spiritual warfare. Sometimes some of us even need to leave our spouse –I have no idea if this was John’s case, since I’m not him nor am I God. But spiritual warfare is about the spirit…Satan entered into Judas to do the will of Satan, the spirit of Satan stood in Jesus’ way to the cross through Peter. When this happened I was under the impression that Jesus &amp; Peter were standing off to the side a bit since Peter first pulled Jesus to the side (away from the other disciples) to talk. Jesus told Peter ‘get behind me Satan’ as a confrontation to Peter about what Peter was saying and attempting to do. At least that is what my reading comprehension abilities reveal to me. Jesus did not do many other things that any one could be subject to doing, like tell every one else about it and start praying for Peter’s death. Its true Jesus did reveal to one disciple who’s heart Satan had entered (Judas), but Jesus does tell people he can trust secrets about the future –that’s what people in relationships do, except with the Lord and Master, a clear sign to it having been Him and not a demon or imagination that a person is in relationship with is that the future happens as Jesus said. I always assumed since the disciple Jesus told did not stand up and declare Judas to be a Jezebel, nephilim or Satan –that it was evidence to the fact that Jesus could trust this disciple to act responsibly with this information. Perhaps it helped this disciple in the future to really know Jesus as Lord and Master, and not just some great old prophet.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Judas made his decision, he belonged to Satan. I often wonder when he made this decision as a permanent one, and what his character appeared to be as he walked along with the disciples. Did he originally choose Jesus? Did he have similar morals? Did he appear as a person amidst decision, wavering from one moral extreme to the other? Or was he just deceptive? When Satan has the opportunity he uses Godly people, as it is seen with Peter. But there is a difference between a Godly person being used of Satan and a person who does not really have a good relationship with Jesus.
1 John 3 (in the Bible, especially the amplified Bible) describes the difference between those who are of the Lord and those who are of the devil. It also discusses love, and loving your fellow Christians. A part of Love in my understanding of it is truth. Passivity is the devil’s playground. It would be passive of me to accept a person’s words as being from God and not research them through The Word which became flesh, Jesus. One little scripture in chapter 3 talks about order which I had heard a lot about in the living word fellowship, but it never sounded like this. “1 John 3 And this is His order (His command, His injunction): that we should believe in (put our faith and trust in and adhere to and rely on) the name of His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and that we should love one another, just as He has commanded us.” (AMP) A part of loving one another is being truthful about the very necessities of eternal life as opposed to the eternal death which in my mind is far worse than death. My meaning is that it is not my intent to slam one person, but to be honest.

[truth_is_a_choice]

John Robert Stevens taught a lot of people in the name of the Lord, therefore he will be named. I am more familiar with the teachings of John Steven’s followers. However, if it is true that John named people as Nephilim which later turned into Jezebel via his followers. That does not strike me as scripturally correct. It strikes me as a twist on the actual Living Words of Jesus Christ. I had queried as to whether I had heard or taken it out of context. However knowing what John said to a woman in his congregation, it was on a secret tape that most people would never hear, I had no question as to whether he was twisting scripture like Satan did to Jesus in the desert or not. Albeit that was only one thing I had personally known of John. It is true that the world persecutes those who are called of God to preach the Good news, and as fellow loving Christians there is quite a lot to be said of being supportive of preachers. However my take of how to do spiritual warfare is a bit different. I had to hear and heed correction myself as to whether or not to pray for someone’s death. I realize it can be confusing at times since David did rail against those who hate the Lord –with a perfect hatred. But the way I had come to see it…I do spiritual warfare. But I am subject to God’s will. For a moment, in the heat of my emotions it was my will that the thorn in my side might die. But it wasn’t God’s will. It obviously wasn’t God’s will that Martha die since she lived long after John. If I pray for wrath it is not my wrath I pray for, but God’s wrath (like maybe for God to protect a disabled child by His wrath for example). God has answered all of my spiritual warfare prayers –that were led by Him. I believe that John’s words were not from the Lord. I could love John with all of my heart, but I would still not believe his words to be from the Lord. Although I think John might have had some scripturally correct &amp; some scripturally incorrect stuff -I believe that enough of it was incorrect as to not credit words from that part of his life worth hearing. But I hold no ill will toward the man, and I hope that he has found his way into heaven. Beyond that I hope that the people who he may have negatively affected find their way to heaven. My mother &amp; aunt only heard John’s scripturally correct sermons in the late 1970-s, therefore I had no choice at that point. But once I had a choice –I left. Years later my mother heard one of John’s secret tapes, but my aunt never did. My aunt believes she is living in the truth –there in Iowa near Shiloh. Now my mother knows better. On these grounds alone speaking the truth is very important to me. But just because I believe one thing does not mean that everyone else does, and I respect that. The only reason I would be of a mind to warn against the yeast of the Pharisees and the Herodians so to speak –is that it does not point to The Truth, The Way, and The Life –Jesus. It points away from Jesus, even if the road sign is twisted just a little. There are many forks in the road but there is only one narrow way. We are called to judge and discern between right and wrong, we are accountable for that and a preacher of God’s word is accountable even more so than his hearers because he should know right from wrong and he has been entrusted with more. I have found Luke 12:42 -59 to be very helpful to me in discerning between right and wrong in these matters.

[truth_is_a_choice]

(I have to assume since no one answered me according to the query that John’s behavior was of the same moral quality all the time, with the effects of an internal twisting of the Living Words of Jesus. I believe that John was always obsessed with the power aspect, and it was simply not as obvious to people because it was a heart issue –only God can truly discern a man’s heart. My mother and I later went back and reviewed some of his teachings which seemed so right to her back then only to see them through a new revelation…where we could suddenly see this easily overlooked as benign lust for power which was so much stronger than what we could see as love for Jesus. I just thank You Jesus for showing us the truth, as I know it is open to any who want to know.)

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew drop; thanks for the advice. “Christ in us The Hope Of Glory” I think I might still have that this week, though I did not realize it had already been 18 entire years –I stopped keeping track of how old I am a few years ago &amp; the sense of time has eluded me ever since. I will have to look – I went through many with the Bible and sent the originals with the suggested correct scriptural interpretations to my aunt, after a year of prayer and listening, (if you will –at least healthier and more of a sane perspective -interpretations), figuring since these were originals she already had I was not in trouble with copy right laws. That was the only time I ever spoke to her about it, she is very angry with me –but I would do it again. Point being that if that is the same one I am thinking of, it was too insipid (deceptive) to debunk to someone so thoroughly involved in that way of thinking –so I did not send it. Was it authored by the later heads (Gary)? And you’re right about it. Never have I found another with clarity to discern the truth clearly like that. On another note, the later movements were always trying to down play the deity of Jesus the Christ. After much prayer, my mother actually heard our pastor say (only to her of course in rebuttal to her quarry); “We don’t walk like that anymore” (paraphrased) –meaning Grace =Jesus (because that was her quarry –“What about Grace, Jesus?”).

Missing Link; May God bless you with strength and His love on your cloud day –and all the time (I read all the posts since I’ve been away –busy).

To everyone; May Jesus’ peace rest on &amp; in all of you through the holidays, Merry Christmas!!

[truth_is_a_choice]

Furthermore, if john accepted the role of first fruits as it has been suggested or said or rather perhaps witnessed....then he accepted the deity of Jesus for himself because Jesus was &amp; is the only one who can be the first fruits of the brethren. Jesus is the first born, the one who defeated death &amp; hell.
I have found that the power aspect John was so enthralled with, as my mother and I recalled his teachings through another light not born of man...in this particular teaching it had to do with when Jesus sent out the seventy two and the power that was bestowed upon them. Ironically as john and his followers after him so often did, he only quoted a few of the scriptures then left the ending out which was the one he needed (Luke 10:20). As a quick paraphrase its saying not to rejoice in this power but in salvation instead (after all isn't that the greatest miracle).
I was there for the cloud of witness sermons and the preaching about John renting the veil that Jesus already rent and working from the other side. While my heart definately grieves with those who grieve, I am quite well aquainted with grief...Such practices as were in the living word after John passed were witch craft and nothing short of it. No it didn't come with a crystal ball, but it may as well have. Jesus rent the veil between the holiest of holy and the rest of the area when he died thus signifying the access we have through Jesus only, to God. Why, besides grief, would anyone converse with the dead? When Jesus went up on a high mountain, Moses and Elijah were there it is true. But Jesus was with them, He was the only one talking to the dead. The disciples did not talk to the dead. Then a cloud threw a shadow and the voice referenced the deity of Jesus. Before they could honor another, there was no one there (no dead people) but Jesus. Why would a believer think that talking to the dead instead of Jesus is any different than what Saul did in the old testament after God left him? In grief a believer might inquire of a dead person's welfare to Jesus as Martha and mary did concerning Lazarus, Jesus is forever a comforter of those who weep.
May the Love of Jesus sustain all those who weep, and comfort them always -as I hope for myself as well.

Merry Christmas

[dew_drop]

Pg 1 0f 3
Dear Truth is a choice,
I am going to read your messages again, It shows how you have sincerely been seeking the Lord to find His mind concerning many a matter. So don't think in writing to you in this post that I am I'm skipping over any matter of which you wrote about.
The This week "Christ in you the hope of glory" I don't have a copy of it and I can't remember when it was originally brought but I believe it was brought before 1983.
The reason I wrote about the meaning of Christ in you the hope of glory - is because I wanted to show by the Scriptures that Christ is Christ and He alone is Christ . The Father has honored His only begotten Son as the head of the Church. And we are to put on the mind of Christ. And we are not to follow or adhere to any other doctrine or teaching which does not adhere to Christ - adhere to what He has taught &amp; commanded us.
Your aunt, along with a multitude of believers - who have all came together, wanting to please God and to do His will - but they have been led a stray &amp; away from Christ.
God sits us in the body where it pleases Him. Out of all the churches on the face of the earth this is where God has set your aunt. There were 7 early N.T. Churches and each of them had things about them that pleased the Lord and each of them had things that the Lord wanted them to over come. If they over came- they would receive a reward from Him &amp; if they didn't over come the things He pointed out to them, in His letter to the "angel" of each Church- there would be a consequence.
There were 7 locations but there is but one Church, One Lord &amp; Christ is the head of the Church. So no matter where each of us are - we are to be abiding in Christ, keeping His Commandments.
The early church was taught to submit themselves one to one another, in the fear of the Lord. I believe the real meaning or application of this is, that both people fearing to have the mind of Christ in any matter - if they disagree on something because they both revere Christ, they will both seek God in His Word to find the Truth concerning a matter. They will not impose their wills on each other. If they truly have the mind of Christ they will come to have the same mind. If we seek him we will find Him, If you knock , keep on knocking &amp; it will be opened to you. He that is willing to do the will of God will know if the teaching is true.

[dew_drop]

pg2 of 3
The thinking that has been prevailing over &amp; in the Living Word Churches is that the members are to submit themselves to one another. And the ministry has set up the relationships between the members giving them a designated partner - (Which is referred to as a DR)to who they are to look to for a confirmation , an O.K. or a no concerning what they want to do or not do or concerning a matter.. And If they disagree with the person they are to submit to - as a spiritual authority - they have a right to go to a higher spiritual authority than their designated partner - to get "that" persons input, to get a confirmation as to " who"' (is right) or as to get an answer as to who has the mind of the lord in the matter( who is right - the one who has authority over his brother or the one who has submitted looking to his brother as the spiritual authority in a matter). What ever is decided as being the will of God by the spiritual authority - that brother is to accept and submit to the decision that was decided as being the will of God by the spiritual authority . What ever is decided by the spiritual authority is to be obeyed. So they have been led to believe that in this way they are obeying or are disobeying God. Even if this is not the case - lets look at this thinking - to see if it lines up with what Christ commanded, instructed &amp; taught us.

[dew_drop]

pg 3 of 4 - sorry 1 more page

Matthew Chapter 23 - Christ said you are all brothers, all have One Father who is in heaven, all have One Teacher, One Leader &amp; that is Christ. He commanded do not be called leaders, do not be called Rabbi, Call no one (male or female) on earth your Father, because you all have One Father who is in heaven.
So we can see we are not to join our selves with another brother so as to have our brothers looking to us as their spiritual leaders. We are not to become a Spiritual Authority
over our brothers so as to accept a place of authority in our relationship with those who are relating to us as their spiritual authority as a teacher. We know that the relationship God has provided for us - He will send us the Holy Spirit - who is our Teacher and He will lead us into all the Truth. We are not to look to any one on earth as if they were God because we all have One Father who is in heaven.
Christ taught you have no need for any man to teach you, the Holy Spirit when He comes He will lead you into all the Truth. The Holy Spirit Leads us to Christ - Because Christ is the Truth. And the Father spoke of Christ - bearing Witness of Christ , saying This is My beloved Son, hear Him.
Jesus said, I only do what I see the Father doing, I only speak what I hear the Father speaking, if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father.
So we can see that in Matthew Chapter 23 that Christ has instructed both His disciples and all of the multitude who were present in the temple - (the temple is where the community came together to learn of God &amp; to worship God) Christ was speaking openly so that every one in the temple could hear Him. He opened His message to His own disciples &amp; the multitude, criticizing the scribes &amp; the Pharisees &amp; Rabbi, exposing them, pointing out what they were really all about, what their motives were and how they were related wrongly - to those - who they were to be related to as brothers.
Christ gave the Scribes, the Pharisees &amp; the Rabbi the opportunity to humble themselves to what He was teaching &amp; commanding But instead they defended themselves saying that if they had been alive - they wouldn't have done as their fathers had done. They were not willing to give up the chair of authority they had seated themselves in ( as the ministry) over those they were to be related to as brothers &amp; they were unwilling to give up all the benefits and honors they were receiving that came along with the chair they had seated themselves in.

[dew_drop]

pg 4of 4
The multitudes were following Christ every where He went - wanting to hear the good news He was preaching which was the Gospel of God and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. And the Father was bearing witness of His Son that Christ was His Son, in that He was healing the sick, making blind men see, raising the dead and this was seen by the ministry of Christ's Day as a threat to them - because they would not humble themselves to Christ and would not receive the Truth He was speaking to them , God so loving the world gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believed in Him would not perish but would have eternal Life. Christ suffered being innocent &amp; with out sin, He suffered death on a cross as a sinner - with a murderer &amp; thieves - so who ever believes in Him, might all come to know the Father, the love of the Father, the Fathers will for us in our relationships with one another and in our relationship with His Only begotten Son and in Our relationship with Him, our Father who is in heaven.
The Truth sets us free ! Christ died to set us free ! We are to speak the Truth to one another in Love. The body makes increase of it's self by love. John 1:6 - " And this is love," - that we walk according to His commandments, just as you have heard from the beginning that you should walk in.
So we can point to all the things that are wrong - and to all those who have done wrong - but the scripture says , that He will punish all disobedience when our obedience has been made complete.
So we can pray, to our Father, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. All things which you ask &amp; pray, believe you have received them and they shall be granted you. If you ask God for anything that is in His heart "believing" He will grant it to you. He that would draw near to God must 1st believe that He IS, and a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. God seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit &amp; in Truth, for such as these, does He seek. With Love Dew Drop

[truth_is_a_choice]

dew drop; Beautiful. And I like the fact that you reference the word (Bible) as is necessary in this situation (necessary in many situations, but especially when combatting lies perpetrated by twisting the actual words of the Bible.). I also like the fact that you speak very well in a loving manner, I do speak in love but probably tend to alienate some people (people who are still in that mind set, or in the walk/Living word fellowship) -not sure that I always do though. The way I see it, free will is given to everyone. I honestly don't think that God wants my aunt in a cult (I could be wrong, perhaps there is some purpose I can't see. But I don't think I'm wrong at this point, she just strikes me as decieved. When I asked about it though she had many right words and actually said the name of Jesus. Which for awhile there most of the members in that church did not say his name. I still think she is just decieved.)(A cult is what they are, they are just very deceptive because they haven't &amp; might not ever kill anyone like Jim Jones did.) My querry as to John Robert Stevens really was; I was wanting to know if he once was scripturally correct, or loved the Lord. (Now loving the Lord is a heart manner another probably could not answer). But being scripturally correct should be a question that could be answered. From what I have experienced in my own life concerning John and what I have read, but do actually believe about him...I can't see that he ever was scripturally correct (if i am wrong I would love to know that). Although i tried to personalize it out of compassion, a group of people who would pray for someone's death is a scarry thing to me. What is the jump from that to some followers actually killing the person since God did not? Thank God it did not happen, the social phsycology or mob mentality of groups like this eludes me -even though i grew up in it. But I do understand insecurity and peer pressure, perhaps I can understand. John strikes me as someone who was a lot more deceptive than those who came after him (whether it was on purpose or not I don't know, I don't know who's idea it was for him to have secret tapes -besides the above board tapes which are available to all members.)I always attribute some scriptural accuracy to John &amp; I don't know that I should (I figure that the tapes which are sold on thier website -don't know if you have to be a member of thier church or not -must be scripturally accurate) (most of them are John's). Its my attempt to understand some mind sets, perhaps it is not a worthwhile pursuit after all. Any way -in regards to my aunt- whatever she chooses is up to her. I spoke to her about it only once &amp; don't plan on ever doing it again, what else could I say or do? It certainly isn't my intent to violate her free will. But she did tell me they had a traveling preacher come to thier church (a healer?) (within the past few years). It almost sounded as if he was from outside of thier group, which makes me wonder. Forgive me I know it wasn't directed to me specifically, but I did read your post where you discussed a dream. (you don't have to answer if you don't want to) -but did you figure out what it meant entirely yet? As far as the this week I would be looking for, I would have belly crawl under my house (crawl space) to find it (if I have the correct one)-I won't be doing that until I take the christmas decorations down.
Merry Christmas.

[truth_is_a_choice]

(p.s. I have sought my God's answer to the question of John, and what I seem to be getting is that he spoke out of himself only. BUT I haven't dwelt on it a lot, and I know that we only hear in part while here. I trust God but sometimes question myself in other words. So that is why i remained curious as to whether anyone could actually name a time John was scripturally correct....because of all I've ever read, no one ever has. As far as anyone has gone, is really just to say things like -he was a human being, he predicted false phrophets from his group (which any one could have done) (and just goes to show that in the end he still remained concerned with himself, his ministry, his legacy, his name -which is how I see it but another could see it another way I guess), he was a good guy...&amp; so forth.

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth is a choice,
I believe God's children are located on the whole face of the earth - and the Scriptures says that God sets us in the body where it pleases Him. Since God is a perfect Father I know that where ever we are - God's hand is on each of us and He brings us by many ways, &amp; He speaks to our hearts in many ways and He is able to complete what He began in us.
John Stevens, is no longer on the earth - to some he was an apostle, to some he was a prophet, to some he was a man of God, to some he was just a man consumed with himself, to some he was of the devil.
Michael the arch angel disputed with the devil over the body of Moses.
The meaning of dispute is - The word dispute means to argue about :discuss 2. to question the validity, genuineness act., of controvert.3.To strive for: contest for as a prize. 4. to resist: oppose. To argue, to quarrel to wrangle.( An altercation: wrangle: argue , feud.
The dispute ended when Michael said to the devil, the Lord rebuke you.
Our focus is to be on the author &amp; the finisher of our faith. We are to build up one another in our faith in God. We are to keep His Commandments. We have been given every thing we need to be able to keep His Word &amp; to abide in Him in each of our own lives. He has overcome for us, all we need do is appropriate what Christ has won for us and accomplished for us. Christ is our victory.
If there are any who are disobeying God - Then when our obedience is made complete , "He", will punish all disobedience. The patience of God is long suffering for He desires that no flesh should perish but that all should come to the knowledge of the Truth.
Since a man's reward come from God, &amp; not from men - You yourself say - You don't want to impose your will on your aunt and every one has a right to their own opinion. What can you come to prove, one way or the other in all this controversy - concerning this man John, who is no longer present on the earth.
The Kingdom of God is likened on to men fishing - they cast out their nets and when they pulled in their catch they kept the good fish &amp; threw away the bad ones. What ever is edible you keep, what is not edible you just throw it away.
With Love, Dew Drop.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew drop; Its not in my heart to be argumentative, nor do I think I am above John or any one in the walk. Whatever he did or didn't do, I am subject to the same temptations. Its certainly not in my heart to be hurtful to any one. Its not my desire to see any perish, not John nor any one else. I hope he is in Heaven. I really don't know his heart either, nor could I ever since only God can discern a man's heart.
It is my understanding that my mother and my aunt went into the walk/living word because of John's teachings -and my mother brought me in at the age of about six years old. When I was 5 years old I had a relationship with Jesus, I remember it clearly. When I was 6, that relationship seemed to have disapeared -for many years. It just wasn't the same. When I was between the ages of about 9/10 and 14 -God gave me several dreams and one vision prodding me to leave that church. I did leave, but not because of the dreams -I didn't understand my Lord by then. It took me years to recover. With all this said, still I don't lay the blame at any one person's feet. I have a child hood friend who grew up in the church with me, she used to have dreams too. But she moved on to live in shiloh. She was raised in the Living word.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew drop; I was the first one -but all of my family left the living word except for my aunt, and even though it could not possibly be, I still feel her blood on my hands. Punishment can only be a temporary relief to those in agony at the hands of others...but once there is healing and the gravity of a person's own humanity is clear, it really doesn't mean much. Meaning punishment is not what I seek. When you're six years old and all the while you're growing up, hearing false teaching -its pretty hard to pick through...in that manner of the course the child has been rendered helpless. But I'm not the only one. God has brought the good out of the bad in my life, but He never caused the bad -God did not set me in that church. God doesn't do that to little children. So yes, God's hand is on each of us and He brings us by many ways. Very true. And that is where my heart is at and why the hard line questioning...When I think of all who are perishing because they choose a lie as opposed to the truth, it brings me to tears. If anyone actually believes the Bible they know that at some point each becomes accountable for themselves, its true -but they also know to remain committed to a cult's mindset such as the Living word's surely means to perish beyond what perishing is -eternally. Only God can save people, people have to use thier free wills to decide thier own fate, because God is a gentleman. But God does have people, they are supposed to be His hands. Although it remains only a dream to me, I do believe God still does miracles. It is the dream, or the miracle that I have hoped for ....to see it all turn around in that cult or to see total deliverance from it for all those who remain captive. While I think this is a wonderful forum, I doubt my aunt is reading it. There are children who are raised in that cult, and they don't know any better...they might not ever know any better. Brainwashing does not produce choices, when dealing with children that is exactly what it is. That has a major part of why I asked you about your dream, what you think you're supposed to do (but I am not asking to know anything, dreams are very personal).
(Its not about proving anything one way or another about John. Its about the fact that because of his teachings, and choice, my aunt and our entire family went into that cult and all of us did not come out. That will be on my heart until the day I die. But they did not have the opportunity to hear all of his teachings because much of them were on secret tapes, that really isn't fair - it doesn't produce much of an opportunity to make a choice. I want to know why, I want to know what is so intriguing about John's teachings -the ones that are open to all the members to hear. I want to know why his teachings are so wonderful that on thier current website it is nearly all that there is as though it is all they have produced for the past 20 plus years. I want to know all of what he taught. But it has all come from a very personal level, myself. So I will pray and decide whether I should pursue it via another avenue or not. A part of that personal difficulty is the fact that there absolutely were secret tapes which were not scriptural, what is on the rest of those tapes I will never know.)
I'm gonna be pretty busy through these hectic next couple of weeks, so I'll be back later. But I do want to wish you a very Merry Christmas, it has been enjoyable chatting with you.
Much Love, Truth is a Choice

[dew_drop]

Dear truth is a choice, pg 1 of 4
Mail your aunt a little gift and tell her you love her in a note. And if she happens not to celebrate Christmas, wrap it in something sweet like hearts. And then just leave it alone, and if she calls you some time , don't talk about God just be family and get back down to earth and just be kind to one another. And if she draws near to you &amp; tries to preach to you - then don't react, don't become defensive - just tell her you want to be her niece and let her be who she is. Then if she becomes contentious just avoid her &amp; if you find yourself becoming contentious - then you have to correct yourself and do right. Because we have been taught that we should avoid a contentious spirit. (if she is contentious and misses you and comes to you to talk to you if you see it is because she doesn't want to be separated from you, be kind &amp; explain that you want to just have peace between you &amp; to have peace we have to lay aside our differences as long as were are not sinning against one another or against the Lord.
This is just a suggestion I am making, even if you don't do what I suggest &amp; embrace the idea, you will be better for it .
-------------
About secret tapes. In 1965 when ever John preached a message the message was recorded back then on reel to reel tape. Some of the sisters began typing the messages and they had a mimeograph machine and would makes copies of the messages for any one who wanted a copy. This is how this ministry of service for us was started where the messages preached were recorded &amp; were printed up for us.
So this continued because all of the people gladly received being able to read again what they heard.
Next the messages were put on microfiche &amp; stored. Then next came cassettes &amp; the services were recorded on cassette tapes and every body was delighted because now they could record the message themselves, every one bought tape recorders &amp; over the years these things were added - until equipment was purchased to be able to mass duplicate the message and make it available to every one who wanted to buy a tape of the service.
These were all public services. If there was any thing that was private - it was the meetings the elders had together with John, this was about how they could better serve the people. And how to serve the people.

[dew_drop]

pg2 of 4
John taught the elders that they should not minister alone to any one that there should always be 2 of them and not to be alone when ministering to the needs of the people. And this was the practice under John's ministry. And he explained that it was for the protection of the people and this was for the protection of those ministering to the people. There are probably tapes stored in the archives of the meetings that John held with the elders.
Now there was many years ago one of the pastors who was preying on the sisters- grown women, in the church in secret - and one of the sisters came to me and told me how this pastor had been calling some of the sisters to meet with him privately, and she inquired of me if what he was doing was wrong. It was obvious to me what was going on was terribly wrong -this one was trying to seduce her using his position as a man of God - but you know when a person elevates any one to a place in their thinking that that person is special in someway - that they are closer to God or that they have the mind of the Lord so you should trust them - you become vulnerable. I was kind to her in this she was naive, and I told her you don't meet with any one privately to receive ministry with out your husband being present. We both reported this to our husbands and our husbands reported it to John. John publicly before the congregation set this man's ministry aside so that he was no longer recognized by the congregation as a ministry or as a pastor. I am sure that John probably met privately with this pastor &amp; I am sure John had other ministries with him when he met with the pastor - because that is how he himself functioned in the ministry. I wasn't present in that meeting- it wasn't a public meeting it was private &amp; it probably was recorded. I saw the out come and the service where John set the man's ministry aside, I saw what was done to correct this problem as being upright. I don't remember John kicking the man out , John may have set him outside of the body and if not he left the church on his own.
I know of other accounts as to how John corrected things that were being done that needed to be corrected. If John knew his brother was sinning, he rebuked him (corrected them to what ever degree of correction was needed} if they corrected themselves to do what was right, he had nothing further to do. John led by this example.
John wasn't given to getting into the people's personal lives, If he ministered to people they requested ministry. If he ministered to any one who was serving as a pastor, elder or deacon , it had to do with the ministry , he ministered always to them publicly so the congregation would have faith for them &amp; pray for them as ministries.

[dew_drop]

pg3 of 4
He preached that with out a vision the people perish. The vision that we could enter the Kingdom of God here on earth as a people - as the body of Christ - members of one another in the faith , our faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God and he preached messages from the scriptures showing the Love that God had for us that we could come to the Father because of what Christ had done for us. He told us that God sees us thru the blood of His Son and we didn't have to be afraid to draw near to God.
John restored the Feasts. We once celebrated Easter and based on the foundation in the Bible joining the old Testament &amp; the N.T he laid a foundation by the Word so that we came to celebrate the Feast Of the Passover, Christ being the Lamb of God that we eat together and we by faith put the blood of the Lamb over the door posts of our hearts and he spoke in such a way that we could see the streets of Jerusalem with all the flies and all the people going up to celebrate the Passover and we could hear the cries of the lambs being slaughtered as an offering to the Lord which was taking place in those day before God offered up His own Son for the Sin of the world. .John made it real by the words he used to describe what was written in the Bible. He exalted and magnified the Lord and because of his love and zeal for the Lord and hunger for God we were fed by what he himself was receiving as he sought the Lord and shared with us what the had found, but he warned us all thru the years that we will one day wish we had done our home work - that we needed to seek God ourselves and search His unfathomable riches out for our selves and come to know the Lord and have a relationship with Him ourselves.
Back to secret tapes. - Next it was decided that a catalog should be printed and a list of all of the available tapes of the messages brought over the years should be in the catalog. At this time each tape was evaluated to see if it should be a 1-2 -3-4- 0r 5 star tape. It was designated that the pastors should be able to get all of the tapes and I think that the categories were set up as milk for babes, meat for those who were able to eat meat ect. by the amount of stars. So if some one in the congregation wanted to buy a tape they had to get approval from their shepherds to purchase what ever tape was designated as being restricted for pastors . I think most of the tapes were available to the congregation - the tapes were also evaluated in this system of categories , as to which tapes were most important. All the tapes came from the messages that were brought in the services and every one that was present for a service was present &amp; heard the message that was preached - no one was excluded from the services. I don't know how these things were decided but that is how it was set up and no one that I know of, complained about it.

[dew_drop]

pg4 of 4
More about secret tapes - toward the end of John's life, John called together special services in San Diego. These services were later titled the unfolding. John invited many. many of the ministries that he wanted to have private meetings with. These meetings were called back room meetings. The congregation was made up of any one who wanted to attend these services and many came from all over to attend these services. But there were those who were invited to the back room meetings by invitation only.
What went on in the back room meetings with John - He prophesied over some and every one entered in believing for the words of faith for serving that was spoken over individuals and over husbands and wives. He had us blessing one another. He had us wash one another's feet and we had a foot washing service and he told us we were to wash one another's feet.
John did talk about flying saucers in one of the meetings and that he believed that there were two species of intelligence and that he believed one species was bad and one species was neutral - not good or bad and he said he believed that a day would come that we would be helped by their technology to cultivate the earth and grow wheat. The meeting wasn't about flying saucers but it must have crossed his mind so he talked about it. I was in all the back room meetings so I heard &amp; saw what took place.
John knew how seriously ill he was and that if God did not heal him as we were all praying for his healing and believing for it - he never once talked about his dying to us. I believe he brought us together because for these special services because he was taking the 1st steps to bring all of the brothers together so that he could take more steps toward bringing them into a working relationship with one another and delegating the responsibilities that he felt each was best suited for , so that if the Lord should take him , every thing would be set in order for the well being of all who were walking together, working together and worshipping the Lord together as a household of Faith.
However John was not able to accomplish the latter because a division arose between brothers over the issue of spiritual authority - which they did not understand what was happening to them &amp; they did not understand what they were doing - and John stayed back from it - - because the Lord had shown John some time between 1967 or 1968 -14 to 15 years earlier what was going to take place- after he died. I was present at that service where John received a prophetic revelation as he was standing in the pulpit and he spoke out loud what he was seeing as he was seeing it. And I was present years later to see what John spoke- come to pass. I am not going to say here what John spoke - because there may still be those who are alive and living today who were present themselves for that service at Grace Chapel and they will be able to confirm what John spoke and there may be a reel to reel recording of what he spoke preserved in the archives &amp; at the proper time it will be found.So I help this helps answer some of your questions. - with love, dew Drop

[themissinglink]

Beautifully done, my beloved Sister.....Link

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; Thanks, yes that is helpful. Sounds like John wanted to give his organization some Biblical order before he passed. Glad to hear the original intent was not to be secretive &amp; that he desired to protect the people by teaching them the educuated way to minister (not to be alone). Nice to hear about your positive experiences with John and your kindness to your sister. I see what you've written about some meetings being private (special services, ect.) but above board -and possibly recorded. I don't know if the tape my mother heard was a private meeting, how it was rated or any of that. John was speaking on the tape. I know what he said, because as a daughter it was her duty and of necessity to tell me -so that I would not be desirous of John's teachings with out all of the facts. The brothers (this was after John passed) told her not to repeat what was on the tape to anyone, ever. Besides fulfilling her duty to me, she upheld her promise to them. As a professional woman who has had some college level education in phsycology -she told the brothers what she thought about what John said on the tape. She did not hear any more of these particular tapes. This is my complaint about the rating of these tapes; although very responsible and Biblical in appearance (meaning the whole idea might be Biblically correct), once my mother heard the tape she realized, beyond a shadow of a doubt, this was not a scripturally correct, healthy church at all and decided to leave it. I doubt everyone in that church gets an opportunity like that. If she had heard this particular tape sooner, she would have left a lot sooner. Thats why I've always thought of these tapes as a bait and switch tactic. To further the suspiciuos behavior of this group; once she decided to leave, the brother (who was set in immediately after beating his wife up -&amp; everyone knew it) told her she would be their greatest threat. I can only assume it is because of what she heard from them and knew about their beliefs.
Prior to that tape I think my mother heard much of what you've described John preaching, which sounded good &amp; scripturally correct -which is why I've always attributed some scriptural correctness to him (much more than I ever would to the ones who took over).
You are the first person I've ever heard say that John preached about the Love of God.
Your description of John was quite glowing, it sounds like you've a fondness for him or at least believe that he was a sincere man of God, even a prophet. It seems as though you also attribute scriptural correctness to him. I am assuming that if you ever heard him pray for the death of the mother of his children that you would have attributed that to an honest human mistake since you have described him as a man who loved the Lord. You describing him as a man who loved the Lord caught my attention since you did not come right off sounding like someone who elevates him to the position of Jesus and have articulated well what was really going on in the 'hope of glory in us' sermon. Glad to hear that.

[truth_is_a_choice]

It is interesting that the brothers had a dispute over spiritual authority. Spiritual authority was a big issue in the walk/living word fellowship. Shortly before my mother left, our pastor told her that he was supposed to be Christ in her life, or to just think of him as Christ in her life. (I wonder what position Jesus was supposed to hold since His was supposed to be taken). He wouldn't say a thing like that to me, because I did what I was told (I was just a kid, I never contended with him on any issues such as setting in a man as a pastor immediately after he beat my best friend's mother up). When I left the church I was a teenager, its a little contentious to leave an organization all the elders in your family are committed to and brought you in to, but the Lord definitely wanted me to, and I did it anyway...even though it might have been upsetting to people. Perhaps I should have been a little clearer, let me do so now; its not in my heart to be argumentative just for the sake of being hurtful, spiteful or to simply argue. The brothers used to say that to my mom all the time (I remember we talked about it years ago after we left) -every time she had anything to say or simply ask they would say "oh you're just being contentious!" or "You have a contentious spirit". It’s a fine way to prevent answering to or hearing anything that they did not want to, it’s an art of controlling another person's tongue. They used to say those exact words, not argumentative or debating or deceitful even, they specifically said the key word: "contentious" and they said it often.
"Contentious/contend; dispute, strife, a point argued for."
The apostles in the Bible often argued for the point of salvation through Jesus the Christ. I think it was in acts 23 that there was quite a lot of contending which Paul was right in the middle of -and Jesus basically told him well done get ready to do it again (paraphrased). (AMP)
Yes the Living word fellowship/walk did teach us not to have a contentious spirit. That way they could control us.
Don't worry; I've never been contentious with my aunt in a way that was out of the will, direction and Grace of Jesus. In fact I specifically told her that I was only going to speak to her about the whole thing one time in this life -and that’s the way it sits. She became angry because I spoke the truth about what the Gods in her life had to say about God and His word. But, I do thank you for the advice.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Yes what you were saying about 'knowing what they were doing' explains quite a bit for me. After John passed, Gary was preaching and saying some pretty bizarre things about (someone -John or God) said they would know what they were doing &amp; on &amp; on. It was weird, really weird.
I thought that John believed in reincarnation and may have had some ideas from another religion like Buddhism and mixed them in with his Christian beliefs. I also thought he talked about a feeling you get in your hands when you worship signifying spiritual communion, and that he was thoroughly against drinking (though many say he did that a lot) -because it opened up spiritual doors that shouldn't be opened or something.
I appreciate your input Dew Drop and you taking the time to share it very much thank you. I had just started to think John's intent was evil from the very beginning, that he was thoroughly evil like the people he referred to as Nephilim (the people he seemed to have thought were evil and labeled them so publicly). Perhaps he had a heart, perhaps he is even in Heaven now -perhaps he was just a man subject to the same mistakes and temptations as every other man. Perhaps he loved the Lord and tried to do right. Perhaps he can be a human again in my eyes instead of a monster.

Love, Truth and Grace.

[changedagain]

"The brothers used to say that to my mom all the time -every time she had anything to say or simply ask they would say "oh you're just being contentious!" or "You have a contentious spirit". It’s a fine way to prevent answering to or hearing anything that they did not want to, it’s an art of controlling another person's tongue."

I had something to say, but it will have to wait because you have a contentious spirit. Once you're open--and not so defensive--we'll talk. Then I will control, I mean guide you, to the truth.

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth is a Choice,
Thank you for responding to my communication, the only reason I suggested the idea of giving you aunt a little gift ect. is that you wrote that you still felt the blood of your Aunt on your hands. Maybe I misunderstood your meaning in this - writing is not the same as communicating in person so always feel free to correct me if you think I am misunderstanding your communications to me. I won't get my feelings hurt or take it personally because I see you have a good heart &amp; you love the Lord and are seeking Him in your own life. This is what we have in common with one another - we both love the Lord.
Yes, I understand what you are talking about - after John's death &amp; after new ministries were appointed - some old &amp; some new were kept and commissioned and acknowledge as being ministries after John's death and some who were functioning as ministries before and after John's death were designated by the new leadership to be related to as sheep so that the congregation no longer recognized them as ministries . The elders &amp; the shepherds, the ministry came to believe it was their responsibility in the Lord to shepherd the congregation &amp; to watch over the people in the way they were led and trained to do, after John's died.
John once said if you could get control of all of the people &amp; if you could control their lives you would not have the oneness that God was looking for.
There are so many people who I believe really love the Lord- both ministries &amp; the multitudes of believers who are actively walking together in a relationship with each other
&amp; they haven't heard the good news - it is the anointing that breaks the yoke - so I think it is not enough to speak the Truth but that God has to be the One who anoints the speaker in order for the Truth to be heard &amp; understood because there is a spiritual war that has been taking place since Cain killed His brother Abel. And God sent His Son and thru His own Son - He set us Free - so that we would be able to see the Truth &amp; come to know God the Father just as He is. Because the lie is against God - and these principalities &amp; powers of darkness &amp; deception &amp; these spiritual forces - even though Christ made an open show of them and shamed them - they don't want us to enter into the Truth because then their power &amp; deception will come to an end and all of God's creation will be delivered from suffering &amp; corruption into the freedom and glory of all Gods children.
I used the example of Michael the Arch Angel disputing over the body of Moses because I wanted to show this was not the right way to find answers to the questions so many have.

[dew_drop]

Yes the ministry of the early church did enter into I am sure some intense communications &amp; discussions with one another - but they had a relationship with one another where they were submitting to one another in the fear of the Lord and they knew the Lord was the One they had to get their questions answered from. So while it was a fiery ordeal to be sure that was among them - the Sword of the Lord was in their midst dividing between joint and marrow.
Those who have been taught that they should submit to and obey the ministry in the manner in which they have been become subject to each other - are not walking in same maturity as the early church was walking in .
Christ spoke all are to be related as brothers- and the relationship that has been set up as being the will of God - is a parent Child relationship.
The early apostles taught that the man is the spiritual head of the house. Wives are to be submissive to their husbands as unto the Lord &amp; husbands are to love their wives - even as Christ loved the Church &amp; gave Himself for it . ( there's the man's cross !! Ha ha just a little humor but back to being sober, children are to obey their parents in the Lord. This is the protection that God provided for a household - and if a man knew at what hour the thief was coming he would lock his doors! You can see that all are to be related to one another as brothers - &amp; if we had been all walking in the provisions that God set up to protect us &amp; our families - if we as families would have been abiding in Christ's Teaching &amp; if we had been keeping His Word - no one could have entered our houses and torn apart our relationships with one another, resulting in many kinds of sufferings.
We must come to the place where we own our own mistakes - rather than crying to God &amp; telling God what our brothers have done to us - God knows every thing we have suffered but He see's all of us thru the blood of His Only begotten Son.
It is by the Grace of God that any of us are saved - and His Grace is sufficient to get us to the place where we will be walking in His Word and Keeping His Commandments.
Does that excuse your brother who has sinned against you or those you see who are sinning against the Lord ? Love covers a multitude of sins. Christ instructed if your brother sins against you - rebuke him - if he repents forgive him.
Many have been rebuked &amp; those who love the Lord &amp; have been rebuked - I believe will repent when they realize that they have sinned, and they will come and confess their sin to you and then it is your responsibility to work at having peace between the two of you. If they repent forgive them.
Now there are other instructions that Christ gave to His own disciples regarding sin and the forgiveness of Sin &amp; these instructions and commands that the Lord spoke are written in the Scriptures and each of us has a responsibility to know the mind of the Lord in these matters. Because a day will come when we will need to know what the Mind of the Lord is in these things.
So I will close for now, With Love, Dew Drop

[jlintott]

Turning Jim Morrison over to satan for the destruction of his flesh. ( a rumor I heard in the early 70's). I know JM was into the dark side; but did this really happen? I have always wondered.

Does anyone have firsthand knowledge of this occurance?

His former girlfriend may have become associated with the Blix house (second part of the rumor).


-JL

[themissinglink]

Well put, Dew Drop. And thank you for putting more patiently and in detail what my heart intended in my comments earlier about all our responsibility as sheep in accountability to have attended to the First Principles.....

The testing surely had to come, even as the Lord said He comes with Fire this time, the house had to be set on Fire, (and that He was coming with a Sword to divide the houses) and the firey ordeal will prove and reveal the true foundation (or lack thereof---nothing hidden that will not be revealed).

(John said at the end privately, that it was in his heart to set a match to the whole thing,(upon returning from Hawaii the last summer of '82) and level the house to the ground and trust God to establish the true seed/jewels that had been wrought in raising them back up again. He was hindered from doing so, as certain greed in leadership to preserve the monetary value overtook before profit-making could be dessimated.

It was as if the anointing to gain profit that John had released by God's Grace was usurped and became the coveted obsession instead of his desire to gain prophets for the Lord. The Lord however, is yet revealed in the fire that tried us, and He overtakes us in Mercy as we pursue His Face. Being overcome by Mercy, surely puts the cry for Mercy in our hearts...... for as we see ourselves in the Light of His unfathomable Grace and Mercy our unworthiness becomes so articulate and yet melts into brokeness and gratitude at His Lovingkindness. We become grace and mercy for we have obtained Grace and Mercy.

But that is a Mystery, to be sure, for the exceeding wickedness of the sin, galls the heart when we see the suffering it has caused. Only in the accute revelation in His Presence of our own heart, do we stop looking about. The overflow of this experience will be the balm of Gilead that overtakes the wounded about us as we become the conduit of His overtaking us. We surrender the Right of Way to the King of Kings and find ourselves in the Secret Place....with cries of Grace Grace....and Mercy for the Merciful!

[now_what]

truth_is_a_choice

One thing JRS taught that you might look into was to have a "right spirit." You can have a lot of facts but facts are not truth. John was undoubtedly a man of God. Certainly he had flesh and sins and made mistakes.

I have been to a lot of churches read a lot of men of God's writings and yet I have not yet found one man who had the love John had for people. Many here, problems and all, hurts and all will testify to that signal quality of John. Now either all those people are deceived or idiots in their perception about John and you are correct, but more likely and your own writings IMO testify to a bitterness of spirit, and yes you can have something wrong in your spirit and crappy old ministries in the "Walk," might have had enough perception to see.

A lot of what goes on here is placing blame on others for what you need to address yourself. I think there were things wrong in some of the applications of teachings in the Living Word Fellowship, but there were a lot of things right.

There was tremendous foundational teaching from the scriptures and a real attempt to advance farther into spiritual maturity and try to discover what made the early church so effective.

There was tremendous undeniable spiritual warfare around the "Walk." And a real attempt to break though into the gifts of the spirit. In fact JRS taught many of the early pioneers of the Charismatic movement...he pioneered teachings about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and could readily demonstrate most of them.

It seems some here just want to moan, about what was wrong, when it would be better to recognize our own spiritual imnmaturity and take what was good and what we were taught and attempt to walk in what was taught.

Anyone here even walked in the repentence messages that JRS always taught in the School of Prophets series? Try doing where JRS says you would be lucky to even scratch the surface if you focused for six months on deep and true repentence.

Remember when you critisize all these people, even if they are off, David would not touch Saul and repented when he even came close. A little grace would not be bad for those you think wronged you, forgiveness is a bottom line requirement of a Christian life and incessant criticism, much of it rumor, inuendo and incorrect is evidence of a lack of forgiveness.

I will give one example, and there are many accusations here based on ignorance. Someone mentioned in disbelief about the teaching of reincarnation. Now John did not teach reincarnation as eastern mysticism teaches, but did point out that Jesus did say that John the Baptist was the "returned" spirit of Elijah, yet John the Baptist was not aware he was the returned spirit of Elijah.

Now obviously from this we can see that God does return human spirits into some individuals for his purposes, we are not given the information of how much God does this or if it was only just in the instance of John the Baptist. But most churches would shy away from even addressing this issue, JRS believed the Bible, the whole thing and worked to explain such mysteries.

To react in offended disbelief is to act like much of Christianity which does not study the scriptures or seem to know of ever deeper teachings and more and more revealed truth.


Paul Trowbridge

[dew_drop]

Dear Link, pg 1 of 5
Yes, the Scripture speaks that we are to be careful how we build on another man's foundation, it will be tested with fire and what remains will remain and what is burned will no longer remain.
Let God be found true &amp; every man a liar , we have to have this attitude in us. And when the disciples sat around the table and the Lord said one of you will betray me, they said Lord is it I ? We have to have this attitude in us. His disciples wanted to know from the Lord if it was one of them, they did not put their self above the possibility - they looked to the Lord for the answer.
I came here to share with you - any one who might look into what I have written to really see what is inside the heart of my letters. To be able to bring to the forefront what the Lord made known to me - when I looked to Him for answers - to understand if I had done any thing to bring many of the sufferings my house had experienced on our selves. I looked to the Lord and I found Him and the answers that I was looking for in He made me well, and He healed my wounds &amp; injuries and He stood me back on my feet.

We must take faith for one another - no matter where we find one another in life, we are to prefer our brother above our self, that is when we make any decision we must be careful to take our brother's well being into account and we must consider how the decisions we make for ourselves - how those decisions are going to affect our brothers life.
So here I would like to complete the message that the Lord gave me concerning Christ in us the hope of glory.
In my 1st posting on Christ in us the hope of glory - I wrote that a problem has existed between men in their relationship to the Father &amp; in their relationship with one another and that God has been sending prophets, wise men &amp; scribes &amp; finally He sent His own Son.
This problem( in mans relationship with God &amp; with men's relationship with each other) has existed since Cain killed Abel his brother.( see Matthew chapter 23)
Those who God had been sending to help man &amp; to help correct the relationships between man &amp; God - were persecuted, killed - torn asunder - saw in two - lived in caves , those who the world was not worthy of and because of their sufferings we have preserved for us today "The Word Of God ." This is where honor is due. They loved not their lives even unto death, and they did not receive what was promised for our sake.
Christ spoke blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe.

[dew_drop]

Both brothers Cain &amp; Able brought their offerings to the Lord.
God had regard for Able &amp; Abel's offering. But God had no regard for Cain or for Cain's offering. Notice here that there was something taking place that was special between God &amp; Able.
Jacob I loved , Esau I hated. God said this before the twins were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God makes known his favor &amp; love for Jacob &amp; his hate for Esau. - This was spoken so that - the choices of God - as God - might stand.
God doesn't have to give an answer to us for the choices He makes - or for His actions. He is God. But honoring Him as God and trusting Him as God &amp; believing in His love for us - especially if we see He is delighted with our brother &amp; out rightly has no regard for us, or for the offering we bring to Him. This is where Cain did not master sin that was crouching at his door - and it's desire was to posses him - This had to do with Cain's relationship both to God and - to his brother.
God chose Isaac even though Ishmael was born first. Abraham sent Ishmael &amp; his mother out - there was no one to care for them or to sustain their lives. Ishmael was not to inherit with the freeman. God heard the child crying in the desert &amp; blessed Ishmael &amp; made Ishmael a nation.
God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh refused to let His people go, that He might manifest His glory &amp; show Himself as God, as He was delivering His people out of captivity, bondage &amp; slavery.
Christ was not adopted by God as a son, He is the Only begotten Son of God. The Scriptures note that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Of God, He sent His Only Begotten Son...
Those adopted by God as sons- are found by God, crying abba Father &amp; are waiting for their adoption as sons.
God seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit &amp; in Truth , such as these does God Seek.
Christ emptied Himself out not considering equality with God a thing to be grasped &amp; he humbled Himself taking on the form of a man. Nor should equality with Christ be considered a thing to be grasped in our relationship with or to Him. He includes us - we do not include Him.

[dew_drop]

The 5 fold gift ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors &amp; teachers was given as a gift to the early church to help the early church, for the equipping of the saints for every good work. To help them come into the Truth to over come everything that was warring against their minds &amp; hearts to keep them from relating to &amp; knowing Christ. The ministry was given to the church until - all - attained to the full mature stature of Christ. Until they- all- become mature in their relationship with the Father even as Christ Himself was mature in His relationship with the Father.
Christ spoke that a time will come, when we no longer ask Him for any thing but we will ask the Father, for ourselves. And the Father honored the Son and bore witness of Him.
I am writing these things because a misunderstanding &amp; a deception has existed about spiritual authority &amp; a distortion of the meaning of Christ in us has been taught with out reverence &amp; with out understanding - The heavens must contain Christ until every knee is bowing and every tongue is confessing that Jesus is Lord to the " glory " of the Father.
As we behold Him we become LIKE Him - He was obedient to the Father. He kept the Word of the Father, did the will of the Father, and died for us that we might know &amp; receive the Great Love God has for us, having given His Son as a sacrifice for the world that they might turn their hearts to Him and not perish but have ever lasting life.
If you have seen Me then you have seen the Father. He looks like his dad, he acts like his dad, he talks like his dad. He is a chip off the old block. Christ spoke " worship God!" How shall ye know them but that they have love for one another. and this is "love" that we keep His Commandments , just as we have heard from the beginning.
These things I am writing are a safeguard -for if were possible even the elect might be deceived . You can't discern &amp; test the spirits to see if they are God if God is not enthroned on the throne of your heart. See to it that no one mislead you, guard your freedom, the Freedom Christ died for us to have and Look to the Lord, He will lead you, He is with the Father - Yet He says Lo I Am with you always. The Holy Spirit when He comes He will lead us into all the Truth. May the Lord Bless every heart that loves Him and seeks Him and is willing to do His will.
With Love , Dew Drop

[dew_drop]

Dear Now_What, last page not 5 pgs.
Some other things on the same note.. the Lord Himself told his disciples saying if you can receive this, that John the Baptist, is Elijah come again. Jesus knowing His disciples must have seen that his disciples might have difficulty receiving the idea that, that one (Elijah) who God took up , might be born &amp; housed again in the body of a man. .

Then there was Enoch who walked with God and Enoch was not for God took him. Enoch did not taste death - yet Christ had not yet come and laid down His life for the World. How then did Enoch not die, John said, that Christ was the Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world was laid and that Enoch reached into Christ - and appropriated what was made available to us from God. Christ is the beginning of a matter and the end of every matter. God is not the God of the dead , He is the God of the Living.

What is the meaning then that this mortal must put on immortality - likened to putting on a sweater. There are many things we do not yet comprehend. Paul said I know of man who was caught up into the 3rd heaven - whether in the body or out of the body I do not know - but I do know how he got there.

And lastly - Satan was standing at the right hand of Joshua to accuse Joshua, And the Lord said to Satan ," the Lord rebuke you. " Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
Indeed the Lord has who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you !

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel, And he spoke &amp; said to those who were standing before him saying, remove the filthy garments from him," And again he said to him , see I have taken your iniquity away from you, &amp; will clothe you with festal robes." Then I said , let them put a clean turban on his head &amp; clothe him with garments, while the angel was standing by. And the angel of the Lord addressed Joshua saying, Thus says the Lord of hosts, If you will walk in My ways , &amp; if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house, and also have charge of My courts, &amp; I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
With love, Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

...and the flow of the Living Word through you is the testimony of Jesus, and the fruit of the Good Seed and the Fire, that has been such a bone of contention as non-existent among some arguments on this Board.

I rejoice to see the evidence and liberty of the Spirit, and bare witness that God is not mocked, nor will His Word return to Him void. We ARE the Living Epistles that are formed in the baptism of Fire, making more sure the deposit within us comes to maturity.

OUr commitment to the Fire and the refining, is that which draws God's attention and heart to certain ones. He loves us all equally, and would that we all surrender in pursuit of the hunger after HIm and His Righteousness, but the cost is too high for those who wince and withdraw; and murmur against the Firey Trial that purges and removes every obstacle and hindrance to KNOWING Him as He is.

This Consuming Fire is the means for standing before His Face. His Grace is sufficient to see us through if our hearts are abandoned in our commitment and pursuit of HIm with whom we have to do.

We are the ones who choose where and what we will settle for....but He is the One who brings it to pass, when we determine to hunger after HIm and to be found in Him at any cost....whatever it takes......no holds barred.....with reckless abandon we surrender to His claim and Lordship over us, and HE shall bring it to pass! According to your faith, be it done unto you.

To minister to Him, and to abide in the Secret Place WITH Him, is its own reward, is the Chiefest Treasure, and is the reward of HIS sufferings as it is the healing of ours. Pressing on to KNOW Him and by the Power of His Resurrection--to be KNOWN by HIm.... to lay hold of Him for what He first laid hold upon us! Everything else is overflow that heals the nations! Is God enough for you?!

Let us press on with boldness at the Throne of Grace as overcomers, and obtain the crowns worthy to lay at His feet, wrought by His Faithfulness, but obtained by our pursuit.

For NOW we are the children of God, but the adoption as SONS is accomplished as we submit to the process...to the Refiner's Fire! We purify ourselves with the hope of His Appearings, for we shall be LIKE Him when we see Him as He is.....we shall be transformed from Glory to Glory, then shall it appear.....then shall futility be broken, then shall the trees clap their hands! MY brethren, the Hour of His Visitations and Glory is upon us! ~Link

"Believe and receive
Doubt and do without-
-together we believe-together we receive!"
~Jerry Beavers

[now_what]

The subject of this thread is supposed to be about the teachings concerning the sons of God and their adversaries called Nephilim, human beings that have become channels of high order fallen angels, such as Satan or other fallen angels of a certain order or “type” of angel of which we do not have a clear picture.

We do know that the tampering with human beings by these fallen angels was the primary cause of the judgment under Noah. That the hallmark of Nephilim influence upon humanity is unbridled and increasing violence and of sexual immorality and incredible arrogance and pride. The great boast of Lamech, the seventh generation from the line of Cain was his killing of a young man for insulting him.

Lamech had two wives: Adah, and Tsilah. Adah gave birth to Yaval, the father of tent-dwellers, and cattle owners. His brother was Yuval, the father of harpists, and pipers. Tsilah, on the other hand, gave birth to Tuval-Cain, who instructed the artificers of brass and iron. Tuval-Cain's sister was Na'amah. And Lamech said to Adah and Tsilah, his wives: Hear my voice: ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: For I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.
Genesis 4:19-24


The interpretation of this passage by the 19th century Biblical scholar G.H. Pember, a noted Hebrew language expert was that he killed his own son for trying to interfere with his beating and tyrannizing one of his wives, probably the mother of the son who was killed. So the influence and actions of Nephilim are misogyny, (anyone thinking of a relgion rising to power that has these characteristics?) and fathers killing their sons and Polygamy as Lamech had at least two wives, something not initiated by God, but invented by fallen man…perversions of human relationships in the extreme.

We see the same thing in the picture of Sodom and Gomorrah, the extreme perversion of human relationships, outside the natural order God had intended. Jude speaks of the judgment of these “angels,” who rebelled against God in the extreme in that they operated outside of any sphere of relating as intended by God.

[now_what]

Nephilim History (cont 2)

The following is from Part II Chapter 4 (Two Ways in Human History) by one of the greatest German Bible Schloars of the 20th century, Erich Sauer, Director of the Bible School, Wiedenest, Germany
The work was titled:
THE DAWN OF WORLD REDEMPTION

6) Self glorification of Mankind. While Sethite piety reached its height in Enoch, the seventh (Jude 14), it was Lamech, the seventh, who embodied the summit of Cainite rebellion. In him the line of the Cainites reached its full development, its self glorifying goal, and therefore is he in the Biblical record the conclusion of the history of the
Cainites. As has been said above, the attainments of civilization are not in themselves contrary to God, but here all things served to the benumbing of the conscience.
Lamech's song is a "hymn of victory upon the invention of the sword " (Gen. 4:23,24). " The history of the Cainites begins with a murder and ends with praise of murder. In its seventh member everything is forgotten; with music, social amenities, luxury, and display everything is benumbed. The curse of loneliness is changed into city life, the curse of being unsettled is turned into love of travel, the bad conscience into heroism, which makes the remembrance of the curse of God's ancestors only a support of one's own God-blaspheming self-consciousness. Thus all is pleasure and splendor, entwined and crowned with the flower of human wit and the soul's creative power, poetic art."
If by the "sons of God" (Gen. 6: 1,2) fallen angels are meant (comp. Job 1: 6; 2: 1; 38: 7; Dan. 3:25; II Pet.2: 4; Jude 6, 7), then occultism and spiritism are likewise a distinct principle of the Cainite civilization. This explanation is upheld by the majority, e.g. Philo, Josephus, most of the Rabbis, the Septuagint, Kurtz, Delitzsch, Gunkel, Konig, Pember. 3 On the other side Augustine, Calvin, J. P. Lange apply the passage to the commingling of Sethites and Cainites. A fuller treatment is not possible here.

[now_what]

Nephelim History (cont 3)

"As were the days of Noah, so shall be also the coming of the Son of Man" (Matt. 24: 37).
In the first coming of Christ we see he elevates warfare from physical combat to spiritual conflict. He casts out demons, instead of by the law stoning the demon possessed. He is in fact betrayed by a Nephilim channel (Judas) and certainly some of the Pharisees and the Chief Priest were Nephilim, however Christ does not come into direct warfare with these channels in his first coming (Peter must sheath his sword). Yet it is at his second coming that the promise of complete judgment is indicated, and the vanquishing of the deadly combination of high order fallen angels with human channels.

History is replete with the havoc such channels have turned loose on humanity. Does anyone doubt that Hitler was such a channel? Not a particularly bright man, yet able to practically hypnotize the most highly educated population on the earth. And what can we say of the savage beast Stalin, or Mao, or Pol Pot, or countless other destroyers of nations and whole peoples. We should not be naïve and think America has been immune from such channels, in government, industry, arts, science, business etc. And yes the Kennedy family was named as Nephilim, and if you do not see it then you are devoted to a political doctrine more than you are to truth and revelation.

Go study the Kennedy family and you will see what those people are. Study history and you will see JFK started the cold war and nearly started WW3, not over what the country needed but over his pathetic ego. Remember he and his brother were pulling a train on Marilyn Monroe in the White House, she killed herself shortly afterwards, not a good woman, but she did not deserve the degradations and demeaning of these evil men, and think of Teddy who left a woman to drown as he saved his own pathetic drunken a$$.

If it had been any of us NOT protected by a fallen angel, we would have gone to jail. All of our current immigration problems can be traced to Ted Kennedy from legistlation he got passed in the 60's, all a Satanic plan to be one more thing to destroy the unique American (Christianity sheltering) culture. Rev 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle (America) were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Most Bible scholars think this is the only reference to America in the Bible. Personally I think this is true and that a time here is a century, so two and a half times is 250 years. 1776 plus 250 is 2026. And another prophecy is that generation shall not pass away until all these things take place, Christ speaking about the refounding of Israel so 1948, add one generation, considered about 70 years you have 2018. To me that looks like a window of about 8 years where we have the completion of all the end time judgements. I think we are pretty close anyway, who thinks the world is not rushing into some climaxic ending about now?

[now_what]

Nephilim History (cont 4)

Nor can we ignore the hatred turned loose in the earth against the two primary populations that have published the revelation and will of God, and that is America and Israel. Why are these two nations hated beyond all others on the earth?

The one thing they have in common is a belief in the revealed word of God and the promise of Christ….the incarnation of God in man. And Nephilim are simply the Satanic response to God working all the way down to a genetic level in producing Christ via a virgin birth. So Satan though sexual promiscuity and angelic tampering is producing human beings that are finely tuned to be his channels…his sons. What do you make of nearly everyday now of young kids going crazy and gunning down strangers? Satanic experiments gone awry, it is not a light burden and does not fit a human being well to become such a channel, insanity is right around the corner for such that are shaped by these fallen angels, perhaps in the womb, via drugs or direct tampering of the genetic code, as some angels do have that power.

[now_what]

Nephilim History (cont 5)

So it is with some dismay that I view this discussion in which to even proclaim there is such a thing as a Nephilim is already cause to reject the teachings of JRS or the LWF. Such disbelief seems to me to rest on a bed of ignorance of the very subject matter of these threads. And it IS possible that some that were thought to be Nephilim, may indeed have been such. If JRS was a significant pioneering channel of God, then Satan is not stupid and would position his channels as close as possible to destroy John. At the very least their ought to be some questioning of that such a thing is a possibility.

Many of the leaders of the Charismatic movement were taught about the gifts of the Spirit by John. And John not only taught of the gifts of the Spirit, he could demonstrate most of them in visible fashion. Instead of just questioning JRS, or the naming of Nephilim, not done publicly, except for the Kennedy’s as far as I know, they ought to research some of the warfare and attacks against the Living Word Fellowship and against John.

On at least one occasion a practicing witch from birth (a person dedicated to Satanic service) was sent into the Valley church to destroy John’s ministry and as many people as possible, she was the source of a Church split in the early 1960’s, some here know that history better than I and ought to speak of that. It was this person (forgot her name) that in times where she tried to work on a repentance with John’s help told him of the world of high level witchcraft, and how there are people that are consciously given to Satan and to destroying any church that is a threat to the Satanic realm, most churches are not any threat at all, but John was considered by Satanic covens to be such a threat.

He was targeted by such diverse figures as diplomats at the U.N. who walked right up to him when he visited that hell hole of tyranny and deception and said, “We know who you are and we are going to kill you.” Such a level ought to impress on us all that this is not a game, not something just made up to control people.

[now_what]

Nephilim History (cont 6)

How many here remember when John and the Valley church were targeted by a Nephilim triad? Three people with distinct personality types that work in concert as channels of one of these fallen angels. Now it turned out that people in the Valley Church were all going to get their hair done, or get hair cuts etc, by some hair dresser that seemed to impress people and it became all the rage in the Valley Church to get your hair done by Andre.

But many of these people began to have extraordinary problems and some even attempted suicide, I think at least one person died, anyone here remembers fill in the history. But people were having “accidents,” etc. Now John found out by spiritual discernment and perception what was going on and he went and spoke to this Andre person and all the curses and transference came back upon this Andre and he ended up in the hospital, don’t remember the full story but some here will and can fill in.

Many things and stories like this all to the fact that the Walk did experience extraordinary spiritual warfare and they had to fight their way into an uncharted realm, to dismiss this out of hand is IMO a problem of unbelief and a spiritual laziness to just want to gossip on the surface and make fun of stuff that was deadly and is still deadly. I know of at least one young minister that came under the focus of Martha Stevens who John caught using prophecy to curse this young man that was a positive and freeing influence upon JRS in the mid 70’s.

John warned this young man that he was under attack and focus from a Nephilim channel, and in unbelief this young man responded that JRS was dramatizing things and he just had a bitchy wife etc, etc. Well that young man was spiritually destroyed in less than 6 months after Martha started to curse him. He was destroyed on just about every level, including drug use, financial improprieties and dishonesty. Or does anyone want to address the issue with Larry Makuacounty (SP?).

Larry was an extraordinary humble servant entering into a broken spirit in the early days of Shiloh, weeping with John under devastation by the Holy Spirit, becoming a real man of God. I knew Larry and I had a lot of perception, seeing in some of the leading ministries flaws that later brought them down, but I did not detect anything wrong with Larry, I tell you what he became later, simply was NOT there; but in just a few years he became a conscious servant of evil, to the point of confronting JRS and proclaiming that the Satanic (Kahuna) channels were going to kill him

[now_what]

Nephilim History (cont 7)

It is almost beyond incredible the people that were close to JRS and how many of them became targets and turned from a humble broken path to become conscious enemies of JRS, knowingly going over to the dark side. So I advise it might be a good idea to not take this so mockingly and lightly, these things are true and can be backed up by eyewitnesses. I myself observed synchronized spiritual assault where JRS would be bringing a word of deep revelation and 20 or 30 people would all get sick at the same time rushing to the bathroom to vomit or worse.

Or dozens of people all start coughing violently as the word came and choking hatred would come in against us all at the same time, JRS coughing with us, and we would all start praying for the Word to go forth freely, we had to fight to see that word come forth, it was not free. In such a light I almost resent the frivolity and snarkiness of the accusations of some here that display a lot of immaturity and almost pharisaic judgment of John and members of the Walk.

Yes I also have my issues and I think some things were done wrong, people maybe had wrong motives, but I also recognize that I had things wrong with me and I had wrong motives also, but what about the things that were right? What about the incredible insight into the Word? What about the love JRS moved in? A damn sight more grace from JRS than I am seeing from some here. And I am not going to rag on the current leadership, I think most of them do love the people and are just people also.

[now_what]

Nephilim History (cont 8)

And this country and Christianity needs to wake up to what is taking place in our midst, our culture is sick with violence and sexual immorality the very things that are the hallmarks of a society laced with Nephilim input and control in high places. Does anyone wonder why Jesus Christ is used as a cussword in almost every movie made? Almost as if the movie is just an excuse to demean the name of the Lord.

Or why does our popular culture, the ghetto-gangsta-prison-murderer, woman hating culture manifest all the qulities of Lamech? The misogyny, the worship of violence the sexual immorality. Half of all internet websites are porn sites. And who was aware of Islam before 9/11? But we see here a world deception classified as a religion that has all the qualities of Nephilim thinking. Polygamy, misogyny, and sacrifice of the young for false beliefs (Suicide bombers killing the innocent so they can get 72 virgins…how crazy and Satanic is that?)

Yet the world hates George Bush for going after Islam and its goons? We better muscle up and face the screaming reality right in front of us, instead of this prissy little pity party I am seeing here. This war with Satan’s sons is real and, “Unless those days are shortened no flesh will be saved alive. I don’t desire to demean anyone’s real hurts and experiences here but for crying out loud for most of us this is years ago, drop the bitterness and stop bleeding all over the place and get up and fight, Gary and Marilyn are not the enemy, JRS is not the enemy, our enemy is un-forgiveness and unbelief that does not see the world-wide, ages long purpose of God.

[dew_drop]

And the Lord said to Peter, "Peter do you love Me? And Peter said to the Lord, yes Lord, I love you . " And the Lord said to Peter, "If you love me - feed my sheep."
The Scripture speaks that Out bursts of anger are not tolerated in the kingdom of heaven.
In the book of Revelations - The angel of the Lord delivered a message to the church that was in Thyatira from the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze &amp; the Son of God acknowledged the good they were accomplishing in their service and in the faith but He told them that He had this against them, that they tolerate the woman Jezebel - who calls herself a prophetess &amp; she teaches &amp; leads My bond-servants astray, so that they sin &amp; eat things sacrificed to idols.
And He goes on and completes the body of what he has to say and closes with but I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them ---- I place no other burden on you.
------
Knowledge will increase in the earth , &amp; the wicked will do wickedly and they won't understand.
Every one has their part and their responsibility to the Lord &amp; in the Lord.
We don't have a right to discount one another's sufferings - when one suffers all suffer - when one rejoices all rejoice - this is how we are related to one another in the Lord.
Love is patient , Love is kind, Love believes all things and bears all things, endures all things . we are to bear with on another with patience and in kindness.
I know where you quote from - Earth's earliest ages by William E. Pember.
The things you are talking about are to be discussed - and the Lord is to be sought in the things you are seeing and have learned about with others who have the gift and perception to discern such matters , in the light of the Word of Christ.
The Lord is in charge, and He is ruling over all the Nations &amp; we need not worry - because in all things He is keeping watch over us - we are to wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb that we might have the "right" to the tree of life. This is what we working at doing on this thread. It is just one of the rooms where a gathering and seeking of the Lord is taking place.
There are many rooms in His mansion.
With love, Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

Now-What.....

I appreciate your boldness and zeal to confess what you have witnessed. It is an evidence of the struggle, that supernatural mindblanking has occurred in many. We do not fight against flesh to be certain. However, the apparent diverting from the topic is not really so....it is the other half of the topic that shall allow for the exposure of all details within the Light of HIs Countenance.

The Sons of God are as many as are led.....that is where the discussion was led....and I believe it is the Wisdom of the Spirit to bring us to think on whatever is noble, whatever has virtue....etc. in order to bring attention, and all to a posture of gazing intently. And as you point out correctly, to DEAL with the bitterness and unforgiveness so that we can stand equipped and focused to deepen the thread discussion without hurling headfirst into the chaos that preys on the unprepared, unfocused, soulishly bound, unconsecrated parts--giving legal jurisdiction to the enemy to yet sow discord.

YOu are sounding a trumpet to address attention to a target that needs must be resurfaced, but line upon line, precept upon precept can lay track to perhaps finally see all clearly.....as darkness revealed IS Light!

If you recall Hoyer warning JRS that he would only be hindered and many be taken captive and sick if he moved with soulish christians into the assignment he was standing in, with MUCH mathematically based scriptural confirmation that Hoyer brought forth concerning this assignment. To succeed, he must bring forth an army of spiritually mature to accomplish the task. He has 3 and 1/2 years to achieve this, from 1979 per the timetable revealed. Thus his holy obsession with bringing forth 1000 sons, though he didn't live to see it, and his death became part of the deal he consecrated to God in the wreckage to follow, both his covenant with God about this, against that which would continue after his death.

We were not yet able to come into this maturity that John moved in, (and a lot more, even a double portion according to the promise, the need, and the principle of becoming God's friend) though it ain't over until we do. Not one Word will fall to the ground, though he went to the ground transforming disappointment into a bargaining chip of faith. Through fire, we must drink the cup that John drank, and take it to the next level by the Sovereign leading of the Captain of the HOsts, who is well able to bring the conclusion intended, through yielded surrendered vessels. Thus, the sonship we must enter, is the key to this nephilim battle.

John, pretty much alone moved through ambush and battles to lay track that God alone has the full appreciation for as well as details. I am very familiar with all you share, and also hold it dear to my heart. But to not see it squandered and misfired, we make haste slowly for the sake of the women and children, as it were. Aerial supremacy gives the advantage to those rising on wings as an eagle where through the cross, we are launched where the wicked one touches us not, and there is an open show of the principalities and powers.

Then dominion is sure, and the damage is contained to a great extent. There has been enough damage. It is now time to see the Lord make bare His Mighty Right Arm through an army terrible with banners, leaning WHoly on the Arm of her Beloved.

Redeeming the time is paramount to be sure, and you do not exaggerate the need. I look forward to sharing in boldness as you have cried for, but I want to be careful not to create damage as we look to see Him heal it. It is not intimidation as much as I lean to the fear of the Lord as only He can bring proper conclusion.
continued----->

[themissinglink]

I remember 2 or 3 words John brought, I think at or before the Music Conference where he shared what you summarized so well from Pember's studies. It is wonderful to see you so given to scholarly rememberance. And it is a life and death matter for many hanging in the balance, so please feel agreement in your burden while we all seek His face to speak as oracles with His good pleasure in mind.

These you mention, and in these rooms, are many beloved that are a great burden of heart to me. In particular, Larry, who I must tell you, I do not believe gave his heart to the enemy, though he may have been momentarily used as the blast against him as you say, was unrelenting. More of us than want to know it have given the Lord reason to say "get thee behind me, satan" at different intervals. Some more than others.

The "witch-hunting" that John was not happy with turning into a real tendency in the midst of the genuine discerning of channels (that did not necessarily mean outcome set---but transitionally used in immaturity) was a pattern of "red herrings" gleefully spawned by the enemy. Our immaturity gave place to both phenomenons, but do not indicate a final outcome. The ability to take the corrections needed to be delivered out of harm's way, was not readily found in our soulishness, and we were in deep water on a difficult assignment, made more difficult for him by our association with him in immaturity available to the enemy's tactics---but he had to nonetheless by faith, call forth that which must be out of naught. But what looks like failure to man, is yet no problem with God.

And as Dew-Drop quoted, in this operation Thyatira we were all contained in, there were different segments, even as the Lord described in her quote. Thus, many were inundated in that which they in no way could explain adequately, and this is much of the scars and damage represented on these pages. Yet most precious to the Lord. We are not all given the same assignments, and it is MOST important to learn to be placed where the Lord leads and sets you, and not try to fit where He hasn't. The Body parts are all equal and diversely fitted into His Perfect Will as we surrender our opinions and desires to His Lordship and perfect leading. Yet we CANNOT say to the less pleasant parts-- seemingly), we have no need of you!

The humbling and baptism we all must come to, are a part of His Grand Strategy where by HIs grace what the enemy meant for harm, He turns to good. The most violent and vigilent weapon we can be in HIs Hand, is to be found absolutely abiding IN Him at full attention gazing intently upon HIs beautiful Face. The rest is gravy...wrought by His Glory overflowing through us....even as the aura of was it Paul and Barnabas(?) coming out of the temple, God's encompassing Shadow containing them, (and all who abide under His Wings and remain WITH Him are so contained,) flowed to the blind lame man and he lept to his feet!

IN the center of His Presence in Joy.....undistracted......the judgments flowing to the enemy are an aside. We will insult the insult by not giving the demands the attention urgently needed.....rendering pure fear and gnashing of teeth to the enemy as he beholds the SURE sign of his defeat.

cont'd---->

[themissinglink]

I LOVE God's poetic justice.....that he be dwarfed to insignificance and his memory fades away reduced to flea poop size, and the histories of the KIngdom will be brimming with the magnitude of His Glorious Witness, while the bragging and oppressive histories of the enemy, online and elsewhere....shrivel into non-existance. It is fitting.

Yet, as we stand dancing with the Lord upon the water, Face to Face ---in a 7 Day Kiss, our shoes have cleats on them to trample and disseminate snakes! With no more attention to the matter than Paul flicking the serpant into the Fire. HIS consuming Fire is our portion. Strange fire shall not have a part in us! How terrifying a sight for the enemy as he finds nothing in us.

How glorious a triumph revealed are we hidden in Him as beneath our feet His enemies are slain in us and through us by the Brightness of His Coming....unto the Final Manifestation of Him taking HIs throne among.

As Bob Dylan puts it
~"just a few more years of hard work----
then they'll be a thousand years of happiness!"

[dew_drop]

Dear Now_What
I just wanted to say I don't want you to think I was down playing the importance of all the years you have given your self to studying.
And I do agree that things are escalating in the world &amp; that the children are being exposed to too much information at too young of an age and the schools is taking the place that the Lord gave to parents - thinking society has failed - so they, thinking they can do a better job than the parents so the schools have asserted themselves in areas that they should not be in -&amp; I heard also on the news - that the physicians are asking the children personal questions to see what is going on in their homes so - houses are spiritually being invaded - but there is only one answer to a 1000 problems &amp; that is Christ. And if a man knew what hour the thief was coming - he would locks his doors.
The man is the spiritual head of the house &amp; if the man is looking to the Lord and is seeking the Lord , walking &amp; talking with the Lord - the Lord will show the man - a husband is ( a farmer) he will be able to protect his house and minister to his children and he will show the man how to love his wife. A man is not to pray with his head covered because the man is to pray directly his prayer to the Lord. Nothing and no one is to be sitting on the man's head , when he prays. The only go between a man &amp; God is the Lord Jesus Christ.
continued

[dew_drop]

You can hardly get 2 people to agree on any one thing. But there are those that are working - to hold back the forces that are trying to invade us and destroy us as a nation.
Remember one of the prophets was crying to the Lord thinking he was the only one left who had not bowed his knee to Baal - but the Lord showed him, He had a huge number of men - who had not bowed their knee.
The anguish &amp; anger and indignation you have for all that you see that grieves your heart - this you take to the Lord Himself and He will show you what "He" is doing in all the areas you are concerned over, in &amp; about &amp; He will lead you and comfort you.
You are right about the love that John had for all of the people - any one that came to John , John received them and blessed them and ministered to them -so that they had a vision for themselves in life and hope for every situation that they were experiencing in their own lives and he preached the gospel of God and the gospel of the kingdom.
John spoke &amp; brought many messages on love - there is several messages which were then titled the love series. a series of messages on how we are to love one another - practical applications. One was titled I will not compete with you. I listened to every single one of them - brought some time late 1971 or early 1972, I think. I remember one of the messages - Where John said that some men think that they are the earth &amp; that their wives lives were to evolve around them - that their wives were created just to serve them, that they were living, just to make them a hamburger. John talked said, but watch out if she gets a bee in her bonnet. I remember this because this message incorporated with the other messages in the love series helped me in my relationship with myself &amp; with my relationship with my husband. I will tell you a funny story. My husband used to stand over me when I cooked his eggs and he constantly told me how to make them - because he wanted the yokes perfectly in tact and the whites perfectly done to perfection.
He guarded his eggs as I took them from the pan to put them on the plate - to make sure I didn't break them when I took them out of the pan. He was a much better cook than me when we first married - I boiled our 1st 2 steaks - and he threw a fit about it. They were as tough as a boot. so he made gravy out of the juice and poured it over bread. But we were 6 years into our marriage and he was still overshadowing and critiquing me in many areas including my cooking. Well here I was listening to the bee in the bonnet story - and the next morning when I was cooking his eggs there he was hovering over me again at the stove and some thing welled up in me &amp; I started slapping his eggs with the spatula and they flew every where hitting &amp; sticking to the walls and I said to him, " if you want your eggs cooked a special way, then you cook them Your self." I felt so liberated &amp; happy!
continued

[dew_drop]

My husband after this, never again hovered over me when I was cooking. Well to appreciate this story you have to know that I was submissive to my husband and I kept my spirit right &amp; my heart right and I always stayed sweet &amp; loving to him - no matter how he treated me. Not that he treated me really bad - but he didn't know how to love me. Now my my husband loved the Lord and was wholly Zealous for the Lord and he lived for nothing else but the Lord and John Stevens positioned me when he ministered to me - to be a support for husband to free my husband, so that he would be free to serve the Lord and minister to Gods people. We were a young couple - and we had a lot of growing up to do &amp; my husband had heard the messages on how the woman was to be submissive to her husband as unto the Lord and so he actually believed that I was created and was given to him as a gift to serve him. And I was &amp; I did and I loved him. And I loved how he loved the Lord and served the Lord not considering himself and how much he dearly loved the all of the brethren &amp; those he was serving. However he in this thinking came to believe he was the Lord. But the word says unto the Lord.
Now messages were also preached that husbands were to love their wives even as Christ loved the church &amp; gave Himself for it. But many of the men - young men only heard what the Lord told the wives - wives be submissive to your husbands as even on to the Lord. But they didn't pay attention &amp; didn't seem to hear what the Lord was speaking to them. They could hear what God told their wives - So in 1980 - I wrote a letter to John and I told John that my husband and several of the other brothers did not come home after work because they were together talking about the Lord. And often they did not come home after church because they were together talking about the Lord and the kingdom of God. And when we the wives would try to get them to come home to us &amp; to their children they were angry with us, saying that - we were hindering the kingdom and we were coming against them because what they were doing what most important. I want you to notice how we were discounted in the way our husbands were relating to us.
They could not hear our concerns - which became cries and they pushed us away because they thought they were doing some thing that was far more important &amp; they could justify what they were doing together in their thinking because they were doing something for the Kingdom - they were seeking God together, because it was all about the Lord.
continued-

[dew_drop]

So one of the wives &amp; I wrote to John &amp; we asked John not to tell we had reported what they were doing. And the only reason we went to John was because one of the wives was being mistreated by her husband - when she tried to talk to her husband about why he should come home &amp; our children were growing up not having the time they needed with their dads. And I knew all of the brothers respected John and that these brothers would do right, if John talked to them about what they were doing, that was wrong.

So John had a meeting with all those we named that were participating in this - and my husband &amp; I after the meeting John had with him &amp; the brothers - was sent a printed copy of what was said in the meeting John had with them. John told them that they were acting &amp; behaving like they were married to each other instead of being married to their wives . He told them to break the bonds that they had with each other and to go home after work and after church to their wives and children. And that's about how long the meeting with John was, in this matter.

And from then on these brother went home to their wives and to their children. No more was said and John was very kind to them when he spoke these things to them. I heard a tape of the ministry these brothers received from John when we 2 wives asked for John's help in this matter. And John did not tell our husbands that we had told on them.

So I just thought I would share this - because this account is a first hand experience that I had so that I can speak on how I saw John counsel and correct the brethren.

With Love,
Dew Drop

[changedagain]

"My husband used to stand over me when I cooked his eggs and he constantly told me how to make them - because he wanted the yokes perfectly in tact and the whites perfectly done to perfection."

I used to do this with my wife. Not just the eggs, but the pancakes too. After years of her being reactionary towards my monitoring, I finally caved in and gave her some space...even if it meant the eggs, and pancakes would not be perfect. Actually, we negotiated a win-win situation. I would get out of the kitchen, if she would allow me to install a webcam pointed toward the stove so I could at least view (without providing input) what she was doing via the internet. So far, so good. I suppose if I had to point to one thing that has been the answer to our long term marriage...it's the art of anointed compromise.

[jlintott]

This line of Walk history is quite interesting. Being mere commoners in the LWF, some of us only heard bits, and pieces passed along.



I think many of us were limited in our ability to fully grasp the deep teachings of John. We weren't there geographically, we were too young, Perhaps our attention span was undisciplined, etc. So, it is nice to hear what some of the "hard core" have to say.

I really enjoy the old stories. Helps put some light on my own experiences.

We prayed so long, and so obsessively in that binding and loosing style- Was the Lordship of Jesus really there, or were we just derailing our walk with Him? Those sort of "transference", and "curse" prayers were too hot to handle, and often boomeranged back to hurt us because they did not originate from a pure motive. Most of it was "follow the leader" We marched off into the occult with quite a bit of zeal.
We thought it was "cutting edge". A bit like St. Peter cutting off the ear of the solder, we were trying to take care of business=but it just doesn't work that way sometimes.
A disgusting quick-fix instead of waiting for God's timing.

[themissinglink]

Indeed! and some kind of strange boot camp majoring in misfires! But to a great extent, it was all he had to work with. And he was extremely heartbroken at the "coven" level of prayer that did develop in the process of the thing being too disproportionate in unconsecrated parts. (yet his choice was move forward and try---or be "safe?!" and do nothing!)

Picture the dilemma: the size of the following was unweildy to a great extent, compared to the earlier days of him just wanting to walk with God, in what the Lord was teaching him. And the crowd was smaller, though obviously not "broken through" into spiritual objectivity, but with all the soulish parts God must consecrate in us----

ie: vanity;ambition for place;ego---you know, the basic hurdles we all must be delivered from self to escape--the reason for Him laying His life down to provide a Way of escape through the Cross so we could be launched into His nature in exchange for our counterfeit, threadbare futility. All was well represented though smaller and more contained.

Then you have responsibility to try to guide MANY through this rather covert operation. Not easy, when everyone has to have a choice, and the enemy is working round the clock on unseasoned and undisciplined vessels....while John is working round the clock to try to pass on as much as possible. His earmarks, however, were the Love of Righteousness (something that went by the wayside in short order after his death) and the humility and Love that comes only from intimate fellowship with the Lord, at a real price no one else had really paid. We all will, mind you, but he was ahead of his time to say the least.

He used to use the example of trailblazers doing what they had to do, but freeway drivers could have no clue how grueling and lonely the first inroads were. Now everyone moves quite freely, where ground was taken. Now before you worry that I am supplanting the Lord being the ONLY Author of all Inroads and breakthroughs, this is of course, the Truth. However, by Divine Design, the Romance of His intentions toward us, require the RESPONSE that appropriates the provisions and Victory, and the Bride makes HERSELF ready in the Invaluably Priceless "Trusseau" He afforded. there are also Seasons of the Unfolding of His Grand Strategy, and there are things unique to the End of the matter, which as He promised, are greater than the beginning of the Matter! and the best wine is saved for last. John was merely in relationship with His Lord......and what that intimacy accomplished to a great extent, is a Love Offering to the Lord, received by the Lord, perhaps in ways we can't imagine.

cont'd----->

[themissinglink]

Picture having your eyes as open as John's were and knowing what an unsightly mess was going to transpire before God brought the conclusion out of undefendable appearances. Thank God, the Lord sees our heart, and if we learned anything from John, it was to be concerned about that, and not what you get, or appear to be, out of it. If God is smiling upon you, that is the ONLY Reward, as God isn't interested in vindicating anything but His own Name.

That is why, for a certainty, it will be so vindicated at the end of all these matters we have shared. NOTHING is impossible with Him, yet shaken to the ground we will be before the Kingdom that can't be shaken will be revealed in us. So what does satan ultimately get out of all this? Nothing but delays for a while, but the resounding laughter of the Father bellowing through the heavens as He holds that puny unwilling ape of a servant in derision! Through our weakness!!! Wow!

My advantage in perceiving who John was, and how much authority had been committed to him, was the size of my need, hauling in massive oppression and very dark contacts from Hollywood, that NO ONE at that time, would have known what to do about. John had the answers, the ONLY answers at that time, to those entangled helplessly in the occult. We (in several of my associates) were the hidden seal of his apostleship, because no one could have broken the chains. I was not more clever in discernment, I just knew the size of the helplessness. God was weaning him on Giants, so it was nothing for him to deal with what was brought. It was stupefying. I brought a cast of demonic characters to him from the rockbed of the underground, and mininstry from him was able to loose some, establish others, and destroy a few.

Some were loosed with death in the package, because, as he said to me, and it was quite evident,----there was not enough authority yet distributed among the brethren to stand in the posture of the 2 or 3 agreeing IN Him, that promises the very necessary and undeniable authority of Agreement. He said the faith God had granted me just to pull the line of fish I had, was going to take the Body years to come into. I looked into his sad eyes, and felt so moved for him, that he was so aware he was standing in the gap before the Cavalry could possibly arrive, because they were forming out of a Word that had to be spoken to the Spirit Realm. And that he did. At the Lord's orders.

cont'd---->

[themissinglink]

The mess, the malicious mess the enemy accomplished to set much persecution in motion, and mocking to the point of absurdity....could never be discerned correctly until this Army arises to their double portion. THEN is it open and laid bare! He grieved that the persecuting prompted by the enemy that moved through the household of faith, was a tragic sign of what was going to be unadverted in the future. For Christians to come against each other, would be the invitation for MAJOR assault againt the whole Body, as it was an inroad of satan.

Yet, he didn't care for his reputation, or he could never have moved in what he had to. He was part of a beach head, as he used to say, over whose corpses the Body could leapfrog in their scramble to take the hill, as it were. As Now-what so clearly put it....how could the enemy NOT have been targeting day and night. The intercession of some faithful ones, kept him alive for many years to speak the Word he was to proclaim. The intercession that became an instrament of the enemy, I believe to a great extent, helped kill him.

But not before He made provision in faith with the Lord for the End of the Matter. (the Lord had offered to set him free from us, and grant him his desire to "just walk with Him"--yet knowing it was sure death, he refused the deliverance from us, to assure 1000 sons to manifest out of the wreckage......and God who is NOT a man that He should lie....will SURELY grant the boon, whose core was to see Him Glorified! May we ALL pray so well!

He is another Man's servant. That is my only dread concern, when I hear ANY glibly come against him. UNTIL you reach a level that walks in his shoes.....we must be careful in our touching God's anointed. and across the Board! As Now-What pointed out correctly.....even a Saul is in God's hands to deal with. We must stay little in our own sight to move on our faces in the foxhole of humility where we won't be destroyed, or cause others to be destroyed. Mercy for the Merciful is always a wise cry!

Well the moon is full, so I have sure been carrying on....hope I haven't drown anyone on this "Moonlight Drive!"

Cont'd--->

[themissinglink]

~Nother case in point,---only what he had moved into could have thwarted what the enemy intended to complete through Morrison.....and turned a weapon of mass destruction into a token of God's Inscrutable Mercy and Strategic Grace. His release from his destiny was a two-edged sword to be sure. One side, was the thwarting of the enemy's plan---redeeming time (he redeemed more time than any of us yet understand through many faithful strategies he shared with the Lord, or we would not still be here in this much comfort-- working out our salvation with fear and trembling---I do not say this to boast on a man, but in the Architecture of God making a Way where there is no Way against the hour we are in. This is without doubt, the Adventure of the Ages coming to culmination.....He did not leave us without a Witness nor as orphans, though much of our inheritance must be recognized and esteemed as an age of cognizance overtakes the immaturity!

anyway, the 2nd side of the Sword was the Mercy to dogs.....a dog without a bone, became the recipient of STUNNING Mercy---and KNEW it! Jim knew who John was better than most anyone among us. Because there was NO hope for him in the seat of dark power he habited. He knew beyond any shadow.......he had never come across anyone who had more power than he did.....AND wanted to help him. He died a messy death, because we hadn't reached a point to address this level with more authority, as I just shared John pointing out. YET, he wanted to die for quite a while and could not have handled the warfare he knew went with John's territory. He gratefully received, what we are still seeing argued about! He got a ticket to Ride..and became a Dis to the dis!

Straight out of the shoot, he wanted to know what John knew about the nephilim. God has many intraments for different purposes, and the mantle on John was a terror to the Darkside. Do you realize how many unmentionably horrifying things are taking place among those who deal with the enemy but have not the wherewithall----and John was declared NUMBER 1! on the satanic hit list.

*Depth perception is what is needed, and depth perception was what Morrison granted on a very small level compared to the KING of Kings, but in terms of the enemy, it was large.
for John to release him, and stand in the gap for him (and numerous others I brought to him) was all in a day's work, without being distracted from the MAIN EVENT which was worshipping the Lord of Glory! (It is not glorifying man, but honoring God for creating channels to move through, and honoring the servants that are willing to surrender to Him utterly!)

Jim's life was required, and he and John both knew it would be, but that was not an unhappy thought for him. This is one of the great treasures and comforts hidden in the spirit realm---like secret manna for those who can seek God and find Him, for perceptive conclusion on God's thought about someone! Ironically, kind of a kudo brass ring for doing WHAT WAS REQUIRED of all of us, to get a revelation of John, so you wouldn't be unseated in battle, and not settle for the human, opinionated, bondo level we all lazily and uncaringly inhabit toward each other, when God has called for us to know one another in the SPIRIT, and to see each other with HIS eyes, which is what John did with all of us. Yet not many did it for him, nor for each other, so we remain in antagonistic or sympathetic connection to one another, which MUST go through the Fire, until His Heart and Mind be formed within us. ***Not RIGHTLY discerning the Body of Christ (for this reason many among you are sick and sleep....)

Cont'd--->

[themissinglink]

Well, thank God, John was moving in it, as there would have been much time shortened--the wrong way, and many miracles hidden in plain sight, undone! What an inheritance we have yet to discover, that you can only open at the Feet of the Lord, with eyes and hearts open----EYESALVE is the greatest gift we could pursue!

Why would He have allowed me such an encouragement, and yet hidden it so well in plain sight? (outer rings of the Cloud, not center seats, but in the Presence of God nonetheless.....are amazing witnesses rejoicing with the Crumbs that show the Magnitude of nourishment in just a CRUMB of God's Graciousness!) It was for perspective and courage in the battle to ensue. Standing with my husband was as lethal a battle as one could hope not to have to imagine...and yet....in God, DO_ABLE! And to see the conclusion of these matters all laid bare....takes courage and commitment. God has that to provide as well.

WHERE we have all been found wanting, (and yet the homework of forgiveness and repentence brings us to where we belong if embraced---and THAT by His Grace, lest any man should YET boast)--is in the Love.

We would NEVER have seen the slaughter of His Servants and destruction of channels of destiny set for the deliverance of the Household of Faith.....if there had been attention to John's endless cries for us to GET HIS LOVE!!! And that we were top heavy with everything we had more or less gleaned (usurped?) from him, without the foundation of the Lord's heart to handle. To NEVER stop having faith for each other and laying our lives down for each other, or the enemy would use US to destroy each other. I have seen this -WAY too first hand, and yet, the hearts matured in His Love are laid down saying "Hold this not to their charge...FINISH what needs be, and be Glorified!" (and yes, it IS the Lord, IN US, that makes this cry.....otherwise Stephen's cries before ascending would be subject to debate as well. It does NOT detract from the Lord being the only Sacrifice, but glorifies it to see it housed and Crying out with Mercy for the brethren.)

We have added mightily to the Cloud of Witnesses, with more blood and tears than anyone wants to know, but after weeping bitterly at the price paid for him, Peter was finally able to enter his ministry, after being baptized with the Fire. THEN he could speak boldly of how we had slain the Lord of Glory with unclean hands----and bring multitudes into the revelation and the Glory thereby! Thus shall it be with us.

BUT FIRST....many will weep bitterly as the size of the transgression is brought to Light... which yet becomes the Way of escape as we are prostrate before Him who works all things together for Good after the counsel of His own Heart!

So we humble ourselves with anticipation of the MIGHTY Work He is doing in our hearts. Every tear shall be dried....but first there needs be many tears to dry!!! And there will be, by His Faithfulness.

May we all receive EYESALVE as our most Precious Gift---this New Year Seaon!!!

(2008 will most definitely accelerate!)

[larry_bobo]

It saddens me that there is not awareness within TLWF of the depth of the wounds that have resulted from following the parts of the teaching of TLWF that did not originate from God. The fruit should be evidence that something is amiss. Many have posted scriptural errors in hopes of bringing to light problem areas and it’s only perceived as the personal attack of a bad spirit that lacks revelation. I must say that I am as guilty as any during my time in TLWF and probably continue to be. I would not have consciously cut off relationships with those who had left, oblivious to their needs, although I believe now that I probably did.

To touch the sacred cow of infallible doctrine is to face the blast that many sheep have endured as they questioned why they were being slaughtered when all they wanted was to walk with God in the safety of a shepherd who would lay down his life for them. If they managed to escape, they were viewed as rebellious. “Good riddance!” is a much different response than the true shepherd who leaves the 99 to find the one lost. My response now to the teaching of the “upward flow” is Ezekiel 34. I spent many years in intercession for John, of which I have no regrets. My regret is that I lost track of the least of these my brethren in the process and that’s the basis on which I will be judged.

I personally discovered my natural family I had abandoned to pursue the lofty things of God, actually came to my rescue in my hour of need – even though they were only “low level Christians”. My “family of God” I had given over 30 years of my life to, was no where to be found. One of the most dishonoring things you can do to your parents is let someone else take their place. I didn’t realize it until a pastor tried to take my place with my children.

I also learned that the true God never leaves you nor forsakes you. The human God of the Walk has a little rougher time with that. “You do exactly as I say, or you do not exist” is simply not a relationship. “Don’t you dare think for a moment I could possibly be doing something wrong or you’ll open the door for demonic oppression” Actually, the willingness to listen to those watching blind sides, might have kept oppression out.

All in TLWF will agree that JRS had “flesh and sins and made mistakes”, and so did those he placed in positions of authority. The problem comes when you try to address specifics, especially in the present tense. “That only happened under false shepherds in the past” is a cop out and a refusal to accept responsibility. Don’t forget that there were those speaking up during those past mistakes that were forced out of the fellowship. Some of those have posted on this website and are still being attacked for views that could make TLWF healthier.

This website is full of wounded people, many who have not attended church for over twenty years as a result of their experience with TLWF. Some of them were even pastors and elders at one time. You may view them as being weak with bad spirits, but let me remind you that Jesus said it would be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck and be tossed into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. There have been real, hurtful errors that the leadership will have to someday give an account for.

I happen to attend New Life Church in Colorado Springs where the recent shootings occurred. In fact, I helped move the family that lost the two girls from Denver to C. Springs this past weekend. The shooter had been abused in a Christian organization, and ended up going completely out of his mind. I’m sure those involved would never have imagined that there could be such repercussions. I want to help make sure people don’t have to live tormented lives over wounds that really did not come from God.

[themissinglink]

I agree, Larry. I have been praying for Colorado, and that precisely crossed my mind...how amazing that that hasn't occurred among the truly damaged at the hands of the fellowship.

I was exiled along with my husband at the time shortly following John's death. While it was excruciating, I came to find it was actually protection for my children, though it was a mortal wound to my husband. NO ONE was allowed to communicate nor receive him -even at his final walk to the door of TLW with his 4 1/2 year old son, 2 weeks before his death, after many attempts for restoration in 7 years of exile. (He was the shephard alongside Bro Beach over the TLWB.

(His bones were even refused by Marilyn to be laid to rest where they belonged with John's, when Larry Cotton requested. His BONES were outlawed!) So I am familiar with the extremes that followed. Yet by virtue of the Lord Himself, my heart has been girded with forgiveness,faith and Love as He has revealed His own to me in all we endured. Jerry raised his sons to have faith without bitterness for all those who had no capacity to move in Love at that point. They have learned to live in forgiveness.

Had anyone TRULY had the revelation of each other that was so glibly demanded as so much shiboleth after John's death, there would have been the missing Love in manifest evidence.
Not so much as an acknowledgement of my sons birth, suffering of his death, nor anyone allowed to give a word of comfort to someone so kind, who had loved and served with all of his heart as best as he was able.

While John was alive, this could not have occurred. Which makes me feel certain, that whatever would and could follow, had to be allowed to be manifest and exposed. Ultimately, I do believe in the restoration based on repentance to come by the Spirit of God's triumph over futility, by the faith that has been worked in my heart by His Grace. I am fixed in that faith. However, there is nothing I can do in my own strength but stand and agree with every TRUE Word God promised, and see the salvation of God.

The pain I have witnessed is beyond most imagination, but I do know, that who is forgiven much, Loves much (I am such a one).....and so I see the deck stacked for a great deal of that missing Love ~that allows His people to be known~ will ultimately coming out of the breaking that will be accomplished by His Spirit, bringing to Light the size of the matter.

I in NO WAY believe in low level christians....and the striving for position, ambition for a place was why John tried to turn it upside down. And yet there are precious sheep both within and without....and ALL are in need of the same Mercy.

The years you spent praying, were years that allowed God to lay track and bring forth the Day you enjoy now. I do not think ONE Word has fallen to the ground, though the evidence may not yet be easy to discern. The drive into His presence for answers and release that truly belong to you, and each one who has likewise found Him, is at the very least, great fruit from the shaking we all experienced.

It was the point of the whole thing:~for each of us to come into a genuine Walk with God... the pursuit was certainly propelled. I am amazed at how much of God is in tact in so many voices here. Where did God fail? He didn't.

Even our failures did not stop the Lord from working it out in each heart that clung to Him. May we press on to the greater portion He intends for us, that we be equipped to be an answer in the Storm that is coming that we all must pass through. Enough time has been wasted. Visitations and revelation of His Love without measure be our portion...and our overflow.

There is much torment to be healed all around us, and more to come. God grant we be prepared to be the "hiding place" He purposed, after we find ourselved abiding in the Hiding Place He has provided.

[themissinglink]

PS--Remember how John would say God wanted us to unwrap each other from the graveclothes....as we could not unwrap ourselves....? Is this site not such an Unfolding?

Happy New Year......that the Lord hath made!

[larry_bobo]

Gigi,
Excruciating is an excellent word to describe the valley of the shadow of death. I had made mistakes and deserved to die. My accusers were no more fit, just living with blinders on, unaware of their own needs and unable to really see or help mine. Certainly the enemy wanted me dead. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me as well? For some reason, I just kept waking up to another day – still alive. I felt like I wasn’t supposed to be here, but I was. For what purpose? If I was now a tare as I had been told, I did not want to live. One of my pastors and former employers had taken his own life when faced with this crossroad. I would not, but I did understand.

I really thought God was messed up and I could live better in sin than this. It even turned out to be true as I tried to straighten out areas of my life without “Him” - which brought even more confusion. I knew I was undeserving, but still I loved to worship – alone, in the secret place. It had never been anybody else’s business, nor was it now. I deeply missed the love relationship. Somewhere I must have missed a step or done something wrong. I started searching again. Why were others allowed to sleep while this ache screamed inside of me? I could not walk away from Him even though I thought He had discarded me for disobedience.

I stopped looking at every Christian teaching I had ever heard and focused only on Jesus’ words. Somewhere in there I heard,”If you love me you will obey my commands.” He started giving me simple instructions based on His scriptural commands, and as I obeyed, life began to miraculously work. A missing foundation was being laid. My weaknesses became strengths. I knew better than anyone that I was not the source. I had tried with every ounce of strength I could muster, and failed.

The “deeper teachings” I was searching for in my time with TLWF were hidden in plain sight. They were in His commands. They were in His commands in the Old Testament as well – the same commands. The Sermon on the Mount was simply Jesus explaining how to truly obey those commands. One small problem though – obedience is impossible without a new nature. The commands are a light and a plumb line to reveal where a new nature exits and where it does not.

Only God can give a new nature and it takes place as a result of a transformation by exposure. Only the individual decides whether the old nature will be put to death or not. Only the individual decides whether he will run and hide from His presence or face exposure. Perhaps it is easier not to run when you are aware of your need, as in the time you accepted your salvation.

Neither come by second-hand revelation through another human. On the surface, you would think that the accountability to designated relationships in TLWF would work. It actually produces white washed tombs, and the old nature remains untouched, cleverly hidden. His powerful commands are subtlely replaced by the impotent “traditions of men”, which are actually heavier loads that produce little or no fruit.

The beautiful areas of John’s life were only a refraction of the True Light who lives forever. He is absolutely faithful, even when we are not. He is the only one that is holy. The righteous acts of the greatest men are as filthy rags in comparison. It is His righteousness that we seek, not our own. We are afraid of our needs, He is not. He is the answer.

I led worship for most of the years I was in TLWF. I would not trade the communion I have with the Lord now for the best I ever experienced in the former years. He’s my God, not John’s. I think the John I knew would be proud.

[dew_drop]

Dearest Larry - I love the beautiful song you just sang and no body I have heard has sung it yet better! It is the One Song Of The Lamb. It was so wonderful, precious, beautiful, may the Lord be ever exalted with us giving glory to our God - who has kept us &amp; preserved us for His glory, and He loves us. And Yes, John is proud!
With Love
Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

"My weaknesses became strengths. I knew better than anyone that I was not the source. I had tried with every ounce of strength I could muster, and failed."

I believe this is the fruitful stage of Grace, when we are reduced to knowing our weakness, and see God's Strength manifest and perfect! It is an inside job, and I sure know what you mean, that it is impossible to miss what a miracle it is.....even if others don't even notice. You sound very set apart for the deep dealings and favor of God that caught you up to this place John said must come. I am so grieved to hear about your pastor not surviving what the enemy surely meant for harm, but am so grateful to hear you held on and found God's arm made bare for you. Perhaps you suffered so, only to forerun many wounded you will be able to restore and strengthen by how you passed through, and into HIs Rest. Lord bless and multiply His investment in you. Love, gg

[themissinglink]

"Only God can give a new nature and it takes place as a result of a transformation by exposure. Only the individual decides whether the old nature will be put to death or not. Only the individual decides whether he will run and hide from His presence or face exposure. Perhaps it is easier not to run when you are aware of your need, as in the time you accepted your salvation."


so well put! this is the "homework" I referred to a ways back. How articulate is the Holy Spirit once embraced, but choice is NEVER taken from us, for better or for worse. We must "choose to be chosen" and processed through the fire, unitl "Well DONE!" INdeed the whores and thieves are the first to enter, for precisely the reason you iterate. If we really KNOW what we are, defensiveness is a bit absurd. But the hypocrasy is SO easy to offend. You are certainly not a tare, but the way you humbled yourself reminds me of "the dog getting the crumbs" posture that CANNOT FAIL to get God's attention to your matter! I love this witness, and thank you for being so glass house. ~Link

[themissinglink]

I was so moved by each section, I wrote as I went. In conclusion, I agree completely with Dew-Drop--- and I trust we will stand eternally communing in Agreement! For what God hath wraught, NO MAN can take away. YOU are the fruit!

[themissinglink]

"We are afraid of our needs, He is not. He is the answer."

That is such a stunning K.P.

[winterland]

In His heart, we've found a new day
After deepest hope was lost
And our dreams were torn and tattered
This new day is worth the cost

(From a tlw song)

[jlintott]

This is good. Perhaps some healing of old wounds will come out of all of these discussions.
The moon has been full these last few days. I observed the effect of this on people.
A whole lot of percolating going on these days.

I hope you all are able to spend some time with family and friends over the holiday time. Family is really a wonderful blessing-in whatever form we can find it, too. I have found family in the company of bachelors, even.

[dew_drop]

remember this song we used to sing together,

Praise the Lord, praise the Lord let the earth hear His voice!
Praise the Lord , praise the Lord, Let the people rejoice.
Oh come to the Father thru Jesus the Son,
and give us the victory, Great things He has done!


We still are singing - thru the veil of tears we see His kingdom come, Thru the veil of tears, His will is being done!

He gives beauty me for ashes , He make my dreams true.
.................................................. ........I love Him how about you.

I believe we will keep singing His praise - all the days of our lives!

[dew_drop]

OOps,

He makes my dreams "come" true

[dew_drop]

Dear jlintott,

I am glad you are spending time with friends at this time, Thanks for your well wishing for every one. Glad you are here. Every one has their part in the Lord , all of us together, who are here.

With Love,
Dew Drop

[larry_bobo]

GG and Dew Drop,
Thank you for your kind words and for refreshing my early memories of John. The first time John laid hands on me, I was about 15 (I’m now 52). He winced and jumped back, obviously something was oppressing him. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif I was a little freaked out because he had been ministering encouraging words to the rest of the church in Des Moines and it appeared I had hurt him.

He said ,”This hits lower. There is something more mature in the Lord, in the spiritual level that he is facing, but he doesn’t show chronologically the length of time, that is he has not walked with God as long a period of time. But I don’t understand why he is in the kind of battles he is in. It is a kind of battle that is a little deeper than I would expect for him, from someone his spiritual age. Boy, there’s a dedication here. He’s got a call that goes way back. God dealt with this kid when he was a little boy and he has been quietly growing and coming into the spiritual level and the battle for a long time, before you were ever in the Walk. The Lord brought some unusual circumstances that brought you into the Walk, was a Divine direction. This man has had a call upon him from the time of his birth.”

How could this man know my secrets unless God had showed him? And, like so many others, I began walking with John, and as a result, increased my exposure to the wonderful world of spiritual warfare. He was in California, and I was in Iowa. I had no personal contact except for the half dozen or so personal ministry times. He said to relate to your local pastor – there were not enough hours in the day for him to have a personal relationship with everyone. So that’s what I did. Vere Thomas became my connection to John, in spite of his lack of popularity at Shiloh among the Walk’s elite. After all, I didn’t ordain him, John did.

Morning and evening intercession at the church for John was my personal relationship. I often wondered where the shepherds were when there was no platform. Maybe it wasn’t PC in the Walk culture at the time. You could split churches and damage lives over intercession, but then not feel personally responsible to show up yourself. Some were better than others. I prefer to be led by example. Of course, I was in services with John on numerous occasions, but really, I only began to know him through the tapes.

Hundreds and hundreds of tapes – I was an addict. Before Walkmans, I bought a simple tape player with rechargeable batteries, a small backpack from an Army Surplus store, and a monster set of headphones. For many years, four hours a night at a cleaning job, I listened to John. I fell asleep with a pillow speaker listening to John. I set my alarm for the middle of the night to go through SOP manuals because John said to do it. I still have my notebooks from those midnight sessions as well as tapes I recorded of the scriptures in Give Attendance to Reading. Later, I would read through the This Week volumes over and over.

I felt a bit of a misfit though. I wasn’t after John personally, or a position in the church. I didn’t need a job to do to feel fulfilled. I was hungry for God – and I was being fed, especially in the worship. I did want to understand more what made John tick that had given birth to this amazing worship.

The disintegration of local churches in TLWF over lines that were drawn, didn’t seem to be the point to me. They were bones to be spit out. I wanted more people in the Kingdom, not less. Many of those drawing lines seemed to be much crueler than those they were trying to eliminate, especially behind the scenes. The John I had started to know on the tapes didn’t seem to match his sons I had to live with. It still doesn’t. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[dew_drop]

Bob &amp; I were friends, I met him on my 16th Birthday &amp; I knew he was the one when I first laid eyes on him. When I tried to talk to him about the Lord he would not discuss God &amp; he told me he was not saved &amp; he was living his own life &amp; he had not yet made a decision to accept the Lord so he did not want to talk about God &amp; I saw he had a deep good fear of the God in him though - he had not yet accepted Christ as his savior.
We remained friends &amp; we parted company when he left the State to pursue his career &amp; his career was taking off &amp; success was finding him. Then the Lord called Bob &amp; he went to his manger &amp; asked his manager to free him from his 1 years contract.
He told his manager the Lord was calling him and this man who was a Jew refused to let him free. So the Lord called Bob again &amp; he went again to his manager &amp; pleaded with him to free him from the contract &amp; then he freed Bob.
Bob immediately returned to L.A. during the Watts riots in September of 1964 &amp; he went to his friends church(The Church of Christ) because he only had been to church 1 time in his life as a child &amp; his friend was a Christian, so he went to his church. There he accepted the Lord , was baptized &amp; started his 1st 30 day water fast.
Bob had many -&amp; many were living in his house with his mother - this was back in the 60's. And Bob had a suit case full of clippings from the news paper which he had in a suit case and he was reading the Bible night &amp; day and was preaching to all his friends trying to get them saved. His friends thought that he had had a nervous break down, because his life was completely turned around and he wasn't himself - the self they knew. And they were deeply concerned for their friend.
Bob was only 24 years old &amp; was almost 18 years old , when he completed his 30 day water fast &amp; our lives came together again .
Bob was going to The Church of Christ and he was also attending a small prayer group and he invited me to go with him to both places and he was sharing with me all that had happened to him &amp; how the Lord had called him.
And then Lord spoke to my heart in &amp; thru this group of people and I repented publicly of my sin in the presence of these in this small group, and I returned to the Lord and they restored me in the faith.
Now this small group of people maybe 15 or 20 of them were from different religious backs grounds, &amp; they would come together just to share in the Lord together with each other, to worship &amp; to pray , I guess it was part of what was then called the Charismatic movement which was taking place in the early 1960's. &amp; It was at this time 1964.

[dew_drop]

This precious group came together to talk about their faith and to worship and to pray together. Bob had been taking his mother to the prayer group for prayer and they were praying for her -She also had accepted the Lord &amp; had stopped drinking - had been thru DT'S 11 times in her life. She was an alcoholic and was having some real difficulties in stopping drinking this time - not able to eat and not able to sleep &amp; she was having D.T's. Well the prayer group was afraid she was going to die and she would not go to the hospital because she was afraid that they would send her to a mental hospital for treatment &amp; she was afraid &amp; did not want them to use electric shock on her which she had been thru previously - this is how alcoholism was treated back then - So Finn Baker who was holding the prayer services at his house asked Bob did he believe in apostles &amp; Bob said what does the Bible say and Fin read Bob the Scripture regarding the 5 fold gift ministry - And Bob said -Yes, I believe.
Fin said well I know of a man who some same say, he is an apostle but I don't believe myself that he is an apostle but this man named John Robert Stevens has a Thursday morning healing service and there are reports that there are those who are being healed by the laying on of hands by this man John and that miracles are taking place in a little church in Southgate , So if you want - I will give you the address of where the church is, so you can take your mother for help.
Bob was working for his dad &amp; had to work that Thursday and asked his friend to take his mom for ministry at Grace Chapel of Southgate. So his friend took her and when Bob came home from work - his mother was sleeping for the 1st time in over 2 weeks. And his friend told how this man John had told him things about himself that no man could have possibly have known and that he also spoke things to Bob's mom, and his friend was marveling. So when Bob's mom woke she told Bob that this Big man named John had laid his hands on her and rebuked the monkey that was on her back and freed her from the hold the alcohol had on her and she reported to us how she went out side after and had thrown up much bile and stopped shaking immediately and the D.T.'s she had been having stopped and she came home and ate for the 1st time and went to bed and slept many hours also for the 1st time in weeks. So Bob &amp; I said to each other, let's go and see who this man is.

[dew_drop]

Now the 1st time I saw John I being almost 18 years old when I saw him (being very young) I thought he was the ugliest man I had ever seen, he had a large face, a full head of dark curly hair, Thick dark horned rimmed glasses that set on his wide nose, his skin was ruddy and he large thick lips but.... when he opened his mouth and I heard the words he was speaking about Christ, how he zealously and intensely spoke of God with great joy, I knew at that hour , I had found home.
All the people were so sweet and genuine , all the people welcomed us and made us feel at home. I had never been exposed to singing in the spirit and free worship before this but it seemed natural, normal to me- each person singing to God from their own heart with every thing quieting down and one singing a solo from their heart to the Lord so all could hear then all joining in - like we were singing with the angels &amp; giving glory to the Lord all together in wells of praise to Him.
And this is how the Lord led us to Grace Chapel of South gate &amp; we were privileged to grow up together hearing the Word of God by a man named John who lived his life to speak the Work of God- and to help bring all of us into a relationship with the Lord and with our Father who is in heaven. We were receiving something that was so filling , so satisfying that we could not stop running to every service to hear what he had to say about God! And soon coming there would be multitudes of young people who would be coming thru the doors of Grace Chapel, some from the Vietnam war, some from the drug culture, flower children,young people from all walks of life, many barefooted , bra less with all kinds of problems, and a great hunger for what John would cause them to realise was a hunger for God and John prepared the ministry of elder's &amp; all the congregation to receive all those who would be coming before they came ( most of the elders were older men at that time) and John prepared these men by preaching the Word that was needed for every one at that hour - to be able to receive those who would be coming.

[themissinglink]

"I felt a bit of a misfit though. I wasn’t after John personally, or a position in the church. ---what made John tick that had given birth to this amazing worship."

"The John I had started to know on the tapes didn’t seem to match his sons I had to live with. It still doesn’t."

The harvest is hidden in plain sight, like yourself! (and Misfit was probably a decided advantage) YOU match what he was setting in motion. *and are an instrament of what is to come~

As for lines drawn, there were such deep and hidden reefs and rocks in the "Love Feast" that was being prepared.....and the backwash from dealing with it, indeed created a turbulance that may have outsized the initial difficulties. But again, he had not too much choice but to shake and keep on shaking. John had to obey and set Fire to it as directed.....
“I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three."(---and in that Day My Word alone shall judge them...)

---( As well as carrying the faith for every man that truly seems preposterous considering what is found in the heart of man as we saw surfaced. Yet, the FAITH has yet to see the end of the "yield" and there is surely more to come, ......with vessels like yourself, prepared in the Fire to play your part. The Balm of Gilead is in the overflow of your healing. I bare clear witness to his initial words over you, and God kept you from the bloody center by keeping you aside for private devestation and resurrection. Perhaps to allow you to show Mercy and deliverance to the bloody center in the aftermath. The Lord is such a Master Architect and Wondrous to behold. You participated not in His Acts, but His Ways, as you prayed for. The fine print, He fills in, as John used to say. But the outcome is irrefutable~ and Faithful! The Sons of God break into the Maturity of Christ formed within them that cause them to follow His example and be LED! You will know as He leads what you will do as the Reward of His Sufferings. ~Aloha, Link

[dew_drop]

I wanted to add to my last post that after we were began attending the services at Grace Chapel we were also still attending the Church of Christ (I remembered a couple of days ago the name of the Pastor of the Church of Christ was Bob Cannon) Well we wanted to make our home at Grace Chapel and we talked to John about it and he told us that we were to go to Pastor Cannon and ask Pastor Cannon for his permission &amp; to get his o.k. for us to be able to be a part of the body at Grace Chapel in Southgate.

So we did as John had said &amp; Pastor Cannon gave us his o.k. and let us go so we could become a part of Grace Chapel. So I thought I would tell about what we ourselves experienced - to show how careful John was not to take sheep from another fold &amp; away from the man who was shepherding them as their Pastor.
With Love,
Dew Drop

[themissinglink]

Yes, and that confirms the thought on my heart to amplify that a lot of John's sorrow, in seeing true sons struggling within less than ideal settings, was his reality,----in refusing to conflict with pastors, --though at some point and in certain cases, he tried to rescue some by calling for the right to "takeover". It was just damage control. He knew what was wrong, but he would not come against God's anointed until God made the Way. God is yet making the Way.

[larry_bobo]

” PS--Remember how John would say God wanted us to unwrap each other from the grave clothes....as we could not unwrap ourselves....? Is this site not such an Unfolding?”

gg
I'm pleasantly surprised at the life coming from your postings. I had to reread the last couple of weeks several times. At first read, they seemed more poetic. After your words became more personal, my spirit started clearing, especially towards John, in a wonderful way. I don't understand why it's happening, but I'm very thankful. You certainly have a spiritual gift of forgiveness that effectively clears the air - even for others. It is very unique.

I've had communication with literally hundreds of Walkites, mostly former, and their words and spirits, for the most part, have only muddied the waters. Normally, I would be tempted to throw the baby out with the bath water and miss my purpose for knowing John. My concern of wasted years is answered in John's own words, "God will not waste one fragment of your life that's given to Him." Thank you for helping me take another look.

You mentioned being exiled. What have you been doing since John's death? Feel free to email me directly at LDBobo@aol.com if you would prefer not to discuss it publicly.
Larry

[themissinglink]

What a privilege to have been able to bless you Larry. Your responses have been a great bleassing as well....a real rebuke to futility!

Remember John also said a man can go through a lifetime of preparation to make one 5 minute prayer that changes an age. We may well be approaching our appointed 5 minutes! may they be synchronized in Effectiveness.

As time and anointing permits....I look forward to more Unfolding!

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; Thanks for the response. The idea of giving my aunt a gift was a great one, when I thanked you for it I meant it sincerely. So was the idea of leaving it alone (not discussing the church). I understood you. Forgive me; it wasn’t my intent to be rude to you. When you in particular write (and maybe one or 2 others on this entire forum), there are specific key words used that I associate with the living word fellowship. In some other cases (other people) it is a manner of speaking, and not the key words. It is the way that the words are put together to form a sentence. There’s nothing wrong with any of it, and I don’t have anything good or bad to say about it. Actually, I like the way that you in particular speak, you speak clearly and well. What it is evidence of to me is; that there are specific concepts or beliefs that a person has consciously or unconsciously carried with them from that church. After I left the church and eventually begat a living relationship with Jesus, I had to work very hard mentally and spiritually to remove many key concepts from my heart. I still continually go before my Father to check my thinking and heart, all of my concepts in general &amp; about Him –which affect all of my personal beliefs. If you had used a different word to say what you said (and what you said was perfectly fine) a particular concept would have been there but it would have been vague to me. When using a key word, it represents a psychological (or spiritual if it is easier) bind. Meaning the concept is more than just a concept to the person who is speaking, there is a root to it which can at times make it a good fruit which is bound to and engrained into the speaker’s heart and at times make it a bad fruit. (Whether it is good or bad in you or for you I do not know nor am I saying either way. That is just where I was coming from with all of that, I was responding to the key word and a concept.)

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew drop;
Yes, God’s Word absolutely does speak about contending, and being contentious. The great irony is that it speaks about it on both sides. It takes a lot of work for me to be contentious (unless zealousness and passion for truth overwhelms me or disgust of a lie which is outright or hidden as usual). Because I was trained not to be, all my life I was trained to be a people pleaser –not a God pleaser (and that has always been and always will be my highest goal –to be a God pleaser). The way to get oneness between most people is to be a people pleaser. Still today I work very hard on purpose to say ‘yes’ and mean yes, ‘no’ and mean no as well as to be confrontational. L.O.L. Sounds really silly I know, but I mean it. I am actually working on those two things on purpose, to be contentious and confrontational –but in the best and most correct way possible. I must say I feel that God is in it because those traits which are not natural to me (its more natural for me to submit, submit, submit) are what has saved me many times over. Those traits (maybe not as eloquent as I’d wish) have been used to speak my God’s Word. It’s almost as if He has been putting me in particular situations on purpose, before I had a disabled child I never would have spoken up about anything for myself. That turned out to be very dangerous for me. But since I’ve been raising someone who can not speak for himself that is what my life has consisted of; learning to be contentious and confrontational on purpose. Funny how God will rid a person of twisted concepts Himself (when the person wants God’s thinking more than her own).
“Proverbs 28:4 Those who forsake the law [of God and man] praise the wicked, but those who keep the law [of God and man] contend with them. [Prov. 29:18]” (AMP)
In the Amplified version it cross-references to “Prov.29:18 Where there is no vision [no redemptive revelation of God], the people perish; but he who keeps the law [of God, which includes that of man]- blessed (happy, fortunate, and enviable) is he. [ISam.3:1;Amos 8:11, 12].” (AMP)
You discussed what John preached about this, and all sounded well. Perhaps you could help me with this; (I’m not saying for certain one way or the other, this is what I thought I understood of the group. But since you said this “The vision that we could enter the Kingdom of God here on earth as a people” and you seem to be familiar with the group for some time after John’s passing, perhaps you will know something of this.) From that concept I thought another arose which was; (and –to my understanding of it, this is well after John passed, this parthttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif that the group did not believe in the rapture like some other churches, furthermore that they did believe that they were already living in the Christ reigning age, well after any rapture or judgments of God’s enemies…which went into some other beliefs about the devil no longer existing and people being the only beings responsible for evil. (&amp; so on).

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop;
When John instated celebrating the feast of Passover, did everyone continue celebrating Easter (Jesus renting the veil between us and God by dying on the cross and rising from the dead again)? When I was a little older, in that group (after John passed), I remember celebrating the feast of Passover. It was a big deal to all of us. But we didn’t celebrate Jesus’ activities in the New Testament. I realize what you are saying, that John connected the two and it sounds as though he did that well. I’ve heard very similar preaching in my life. Modern Christians usually do continue to recognize and celebrate Jesus’ activities though. In that group in particular, the New Testament continuously lost the lime light. Then Jesus lost the lime light. So what do you think? Do you think that started with John, the people after John twisted John’s words or it was just all a part of the later church’s removing deity from Jesus?
I realize how John could have interpreted what Jesus said to be about reincarnation. I really don’t have anything to say about it. But since you seemed to have been such a great student of this teaching, I wonder if you could answer some questions it evokes? What bearing do you (or did John) think that reincarnation has on the salvation of our souls by Jesus and vice versa? What about the disciples who were going to sit with Jesus after they passed and all the references to a life in heaven after death that Jesus made? How do you think all of this is affected if we are reincarnated? If we are reincarnated does that mean we still go to Heaven or Hell (does it mean we are accountable for anything?)? When are people reincarnated?
Dew Drop I read some of your later posts where you were very lovingly, respectfully but truthfully discussing an issue with your husband. I can understand that. My husband and I have a wonderful relationship today. But quite frankly, he isn’t saved. Our ideas can be rather different. My husband has to have the toilet paper and paper towels roll off the dispenser a very specific way if a surface level picture is best. But he can be very easy going, and thanks to God he has resumed that position. (The toilet paper still rolls as he dictated.) He doesn’t even acknowledge God, but I went to the Lord about him anyway. God straightened it out. My husband’s friends can be his Gods; he has had a lot of Gods in his life. If a pastor or a friend would have straightened him out for me instead of God directly, I would love that person. I would feel indebted to and very thankful to that person, probably forever.
Truth is a Choice

[truth_is_a_choice]

jlintott;
Well I'm back earlier than i thought. I hope you had good holidays. My family gave me an everlasting cold, its the gift that keeps on giving.
Changed again;
Curious, have you changed your name on this forum before? You're constantly funny.

[truth_is_a_choice]

now what
nice to hear a fresh voice. You are absolutely right, you can have a lot of facts but not truth. The people who recognized Jesus as the Christ originally were in the minority. Yes lots of people gathering together who agree on one thing, like loving John speaks volumes.
Wow, now what to think that you could discern through my writing that I was reacting to John's teaching about reincarnation emotionally is quite amazing.
I was alive when John was around too now what. I heard some of his teachings myself. My grandmother was once an avid follower of his many many years ago, much as you sound to be today. There wasn't any disbelief about it. I knew he preached about reincarnation, even knew the scripture references. I've never been offended by it. I was just picking another person's brain to see if they remembered any more than I did about it. But you feel free to discern my emotional state and my heart any time http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gifI love a good chat.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Now what
I do appreciate your insight into the great depth of the nephilim preachings. Very interesting. Puts a whole different spin on spiritual warfare.
Spiritual warfare is usually a pretty in depth thing for me too. The point I had made earlier about praying for God's wrath and not my own I made for a reason. If I were to pray out of my own motives, to pray my own wrath over and above God's it would be considered by God to be witchcraft. The lines are not move -able just because a person is being attacked spiritually. You either do things in the spiritual realm with God as your head and protection or you do witchcraft. By doing things with God as your head and protection you have to submit to his will far above your own. Even if you really think your spouse and co-parent to your children should die because they have done some great atrocity against God himself. God is a big God and does take care of Himself quite well. Now its true that God does extend Grace to those who love him, especially if they are just really immature spiritually. I think he gives people a chance to grow up, after all God is the only being who really can discern another man's heart. I don't doubt that God loved John. Spiritual warfare for me is a bit different I guess. Once a man has actually reached the point of being a pastor I expect him to be mature enough to handle spiritual warfare properly. Even when he feels attacked so vehemently. A part of spiritual warfare from the devil is to take God's word and misuse and mis teach it. Thats what the devil did in the desert to Jesus. Thats what has been happening for a long time and will continue to happen, the devil is always looking for that foothold in every ministry. Whether its something totally obvious like Jim Jones, who actually started out quite well -he seemed to be right with God. But it ended with what the whole world could easily see with their eyes, lots of blood and guts. There are just as many souls lost that way as there are with many people choosing to adhere to what can appear to be fairly harmless scriptural errors. The road with Jesus is pretty narrow. Now whether those were just mistakes and John went on to overcome or preach other things which were scripturally correct I do not know for sure. If he is in heaven now, great for him. Another aspect of spiritual warfare is being a mother and the one parent who is probably most concerned with the children, then having an entire group of christians praying for your death. Pretty unforgiving stuff there, what about the children? Who takes care of them after she dies? Everyone has spiritual warfare. Wouldn't it be odd if John's exwife had just as much spiritual warfare to deal with as John? God has many ministers, some of them are not on the stage. But they are all important to God. I do believe that God loved John, and I hope he is in heaven. It has been nice chatting with you, take care
Truth is a choice

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth Is A Choice,

Will have to work on communicating with you later tonight. I must go earn a living today, so will write later tonight &amp; probably post the next day. You brought up some very good thoughts to talk together about.

SPACE MAN - We will probably be needing your help - with Scriptures because I won't have time to look up the Scriptual references needed to support what I write. Also when you read what I write - if you see any thing I say misses the mark would you please help correct me so I don't stray from the plumb line of truth that is written in the (Scriptures which Testify of "Christ") who is the "Truth."

LARRY BO BO,
Would you please watch over what is being talked about &amp; help with what you have come to realise in Christ thru Christ - having also sought Him to find Him over all these many years.

The Missing Link, Now What - The Lord said where ever 2 or more are gathered in My Name - there I will be . So here we are. Lets help each other!

With Love,
Dew Drop

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth is a choice,
I hope I understood you correctly - if I did, I am glad that every thing went well for you and your aunt.
I know I communicate and express my self using words &amp; combining words to convey my thoughts. I am glad you are able to understand me. I try to be careful how I put words together because I am aware that when we write it is very different than talking to one another in person.
I can also understand how a word can trigger a reaction or a red flag - that might make you step back from what is being said - to take a closer look at what the meaning is in the words being used to convey a thought. I do the same thing myself.
I think that some where in the scriptures that there is a reference to the disciples of Christ where it said that they were able to be recognized by the way they spoke - by the words they used to convey their thoughts. They in some way were different in how thy put their words to together.
I think we each have a unique was of expressing out selves.
We are suppose to tests the spirits to see if they are of God. So I am in no way offended if you want to see who is sitting on the throne of my heart.
One thing I am experiencing is that you keep trying to find out from me what I think about John &amp; John's teaching and I noticed when you mentioned that you would feel eternally indebted if you had some one to help you - as I had to help me with something I could not change in my house that needed to be corrected.
I think that the example we have of the early church shows that they helped one another in life.
one example was the older women were to teach the younger women to learn how to love there own husbands and their children. The only reason for having to teach a young woman how to love would mean an older woman could see the younger needed help &amp; change needed to come because something more was needed in the relationship the younger woman had with her husband or her children. It would be evident that their was a need here.
Your mother probably has been a real help to you and you probably really appreciate her and the help she has given you. and if you were willing to accept her help &amp; were willing to be taught by her - and she helped you by teaching you how to better love your husband &amp; children - you would be thankful for her and her help.
But to feel indebted &amp; thankful forever to a person who helped you - would make it difficult to have a relationship where both party's could freely give and freely receive from one another

[dew_drop]

Now if I was crossing the street and you saw I was going to be hit by a car and you threw yourself in front of the car to save my life - that is you put your life on the line for me - then I would feel exceedingly grateful &amp; indebted - but most people who save another's life by putting their life in harms way do not require from the one they saved any kind of payment for saving the life of their fellowman. There probably are exceptions to this - but if that were the case I would have to look to the Lord and seek Him and what His mind was - in such a matter as this. And this is something I would not try to handle by myself.

Truth is a choice , you said,

If a pastor or a friend would have straightened him out for me instead of God directly, I would love that person. I would feel indebted to and very thankful to that person, probably forever.

When our relationships with friends or even our pastors if our relationship is out of balance or if we make people out to ourselves more than they really are or are to be to us - we become vulnerable.

I believe Our oneness is to be with the Lord, and out of the relationship we have with Christ -then we are able to have a healthy relationship with one another.

Well I better close for now, it is after 1 a.m and the sun will be coming up soon.
with Love, Dew Drop

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; Thank you, I am thankful that you were/are not offended by my curiousity. Yes I am interested in what you think and remember because you do seem to have a healthy mind and spiritual life. I believe that Jesus is on the throne of your heart. I am in interested in what you think personally also because in some of your other posts you reflected with more detail than most on some of the things that John taught. For example, the reincarnation ideas or teachings of John's. I was so young, that I grew up believing in reincarnation but when a spiritual mother (friend) later inquired as to why, I had no answer. I also had no other details about it, and it went onto a shelf in my mind. Later, before you mentioned -I read the scriptures (they're very near to my favorite scriptures, about a little boy). Manyof my questions to you are derived from personal curiousities more so than a desire to put you under a microscope personally. In respect to time I understand if you can not or do not want to answer some of them. I am extremely busy myself. I also noticed that there are certain issues I've brought up, that you never adress. Like John praying for the death of his wife. I don't know why that is, if there are others you do not want to offend, because you want to keep a balance, perhaps you believe what was done was a good thing and I do not have a correct understanding or perspective of it, perhaps you believe it never happened...All of that guessed, my queries concerning John have much more to do with curiousities about what he taught &amp; how that effected others than it does about the man himself. I do believe that God loved John (a personal belief derived from prayer, which are compartmentalized with some other personal beliefs about who John was and how who he was effected many people -all derived from prayer. All of those personal conclusions are very balanced, there are good and bad. That makes them very 'real' to me.) ("real" my generation's way of saying "truth"). That is why I was curious about you personally. Since you do seem to have a healthy mind and spiritual life, and you do not agree with me about everything under the sun -I find talking with you interesting and enjoyable. If it is not interesting at least, perhaps not enjoyable for you I'm sorry. I do tend to examine who is on the throne of a person's heart if I ever intend to value thier opinion, thats not always so enjoyable for another person.
Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4,5)
Much love, Truth is a Choice.

[themissinglink]

Aloha Dew-Drop~

I am here. And salutations to all who are concerting the effort to create an atmosphere conducive to opening our hearts with sacred histories....sacred because they bare much blood on the tracks in pursuit of the King of Kings, and much discipline by Him in the process.

I would like to stand together to agree, that with careful hearts, we speak the Truth before Him and the Cloud of Witnesses in such a way that we remain cognizant that what is shared here goes before all Holy Tribunals in the heavenlies as a Witness that will not fade away. With much tears we have traversed this far, to sit and share before the Father, our histories, wounds, and healings to His Glory. (In Hawaiian, "Pu'uhonua" is a place of healing and safe harbor--a place of refuge where criminals and wounded and sick may seek protection and release in their Ali'i and Royal Priesthood,~as in the Biblical OT pattern. May we be Pu'uhonua in His Name.)

May we consecrate our hearts this Day, this New Year, to speak before Him as beholding His Face....in nakedness, honesty, and in the Holy Spirit as best as we are able, that we not look back from this day forward with regret as to opportunities lost and recorded as such. But we take off our shoes on Holy Ground, knowing this is the Acceptable Year of the Lord to accelerate His Will in plain sight.

Our words will reverberate into the Universe forever as a Testimony. And while repentance is a miracle provision that we may procure and exercise at His Throne of Grace, may we not grieve His Spirit nor harden our hearts in the Hour we may find Him willing to complete that which concerns us. But we stand before the Captain of the Hosts with a Sword drawn to our bellies, by He who is neither FOR nor AGAINST us, but who LEADS all those prepared to follow Him withersoever He goeth, to the Glory of His Father and the manifestation of His sons in Christ Jesus.

As a good brother once said, "We make haste slowly"! (Larry, I know it is in His heart that we share openly much history, and it shall unfold here as He gives strength and liberty. Mahalo for the sincerity of your heart and the atmosphere it provides.)

And as another beloved brother once said,
"There must be some kinda Way outta here," said the Joker to the Thief----
"there's too much confusion....I can't get not relief! Businessmen they drink my wine.... plowmen dig my earth, none of them along the line know what any of it is worth."

"No reason to get excited," the Thief, He kindly spoke,
"There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."

Love, Link

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth is a Choice and also to all who Love the Lord,

There is not enough time in a day to address and communicate on all the things you have written about - so this is why I don't answer each question. But what I do try to do is cover as much as I can in hopes that I can from what I have learned in life - say enough to answer what I can or what is most important and hope that what I write will be of help.

The most Important thing is that we each have a relationship with the Lord and we continue to seek Him- to Find Him - to Know Him and to follow no other voice other than the voice of the Lord "Jesus Christ Himself." Many search the scriptures for different reasons - but what I have learned once my eyes were opened to the real error of thinking that became a doctrine of obedience after John Stevens death - I saw the Truth according to Christ in the Scriptures. The Scriptures Testify of Christ !

We each have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Most of the posts that I have read on the factnet I see the people are making &amp; finding their way in life &amp; it does take many years to recover from the things they went thru - and because of their love for God it seems to me that all are reconciling every thought &amp; experience good or bad (in God). I have read wonderful stories and have found that others have come to the same understanding -as I myself have come to, about many things. We keep the good &amp; we throw away the bad. We separate the precious from the vile.

We bring every one of our thoughts into subjection to "Christ" &amp; "He" -" Truth" sets us Free!

In many things growing up in the faith we heard but we did not understand - then we came to understand &amp; the day star arose in our hearts and we saw clearly the Lord and the path of His righteousness. We put on our sandals and got up &amp; continued seeking Him &amp; walking on to know the Lord , never forgetting those we love and many of us have made every effort to reach those we love so that they might also know - what we have come to know. But there is a great divide that keeps us apart from one another. But I know in my heart just as we once were walking not knowing or understanding - what we now know and have come to understand - they too will have to go through what ever is necessary to bring them to the place where we are - in Christ.

[dew_drop]

I have a son who is giving himself to the ministry just as his dad &amp; I did. But he has no real sense of family. He is doing good &amp; is living his life - and if he marry's one day - I may or may not be welcome to his wedding. He may marry with out me knowing. and if I am invited - it will be by invitation having been cleared and ok'd by the ministry - will I go or not go - for his sake and the sake of my posterity - I would go. This is not to say that we do not love each other - but we have a very limited connection in life together as family.

He can not understand or comprehend what has been robbed from us or the losses we have suffered as a family - because he does not really know about family &amp; he was too young to understand . And he does not yet know what is in man and what man is capable of doing - so he also as many of us did living our lives - blindly is trusting those who lead - believing that those who lead - would never do any thing to hurt them - would never do any thing to waste a day of their lives, this is where he lives .

I was living in another state when the father of my son died - when his dad was alive we although we were not living as husband &amp; wife at the time - my children's relationship with me was o.k. as good as it could be - because their dad was still being loyal and trying to be obedient to the ministry of authority over his life - and I was no longer subjecting my life to them or to their wills - so that I was viewed by my family &amp; others as being deceived.

My son was visiting with me when his dad died - One of my daughter's who was very close with her dad &amp; very involved in the church - the day their dad died - she called her all but 15 year old brother on the phone and told him that he should come now and live with her. She did not realize at that time what she was doing but I knew what she was doing and why she was doing it. I was not going to be able to go to CA. for a few days because I did not have the money to get there - and my daughter was stirring things up - telling my son that G&amp;M wanted to minister to them so he needed to come right away. And of course he wanted to go , his dad had just died. So he flew that same day to Ca.

(My daughter who is now free and she &amp; I (our relationship) has been restored - as family - after she recovered from her own experiences - she later went thru - she also left the church &amp; it took years for us - as a family - to get back to each other in life .)

[dew_drop]

So my children met G&amp;M for them to minister to them - they talked to 3 of my 4 children in their car out side the church and the first thing that was brought up by my daughter was that her brother should live with her instead of her mother. G&amp;M asked my children knowing that (I told my daughter that her brother was going to return to live with me) after her dad was buried - G&amp; M asked my children what would their dad want? G&amp;M were influencing and manipulating my children to disregard me - leading them to disrespect me and to disobey my will for my child - behind my back with out communicating with me- as the mother &amp; the parent of my minor child. Then they assured my children that they would support them in their decision. So the shepherds became involved and they were making arrangements for my son to live in California independently of me - behind my back and with out my knowledge &amp; with out communicating with me.

And on top of this G&amp;M emotionally cried and carried on to my children - about how disappointed and angry that they were at their dad - because he had not walked in the word over his life and had not become what God wanted him to be come.

This is how they ministered and influenced my children instead of going to visit them to comfort them and see if they had any need. Instead - they called my children to come to them - so they could minister to my children.

So this was going on against my house - against me- so that I was not able to become involved with my children to help my children or to be with them in the loss of their dad.

Their dad's burial was delayed for 30 days - because of what was taking place behind the scenes with my children and the ministry. Then after the burial &amp; memorial service took place in Shiloh - I finally was able to get a hold of my daughter who informed me - that the shepherds were their spiritual authority and it was the will of the shepherds for my son to remain living in California.

I immediately wrote a letter to the shepherds and told them about the wrong that they were doing. After receiving my letter one of the shepherds called me and said- of course we want to work with you , M.W. will be calling you in a couple of days.

[dew_drop]

M.W. was the cousin of their dad. And the call was made - not really to work with me - but I had a very difficult decision to make - one that no mother should ever have had to make. I knew I was the legal authority in this matter - but was I going to exercise my authority and force my son to come home to me and tear him and subject him to more trauma on top of having just lost his dad - this would have torn all my children - so I made a decision- the best decision I could make in the midst of many difficulties &amp; allowed my son to stay in Ca. with their dad's cousin - but only until the end of the school year. And I made arrangements with S.S.I for his dad's SSI checks to be sent to the cousin for his food, room &amp; board.

I could afford to financially support my son if he was living with me but I could not afford to support him living apart from me.

So when it came time for my son to come home to me - I was told by the cousin - that she would have him legally emancipated - if I tried to force him to come home to me.

Now this same type of scenario but different circumstances - had taken place against my house -
11 years earlier - authority was usurped and false spiritual authority &amp; the will of others was imposed on my husband- against his will and behind his back also &amp; he was also informed as I was informed - and others made decisions for us and over our lives using false spiritual authority to make us subject to them - which resulted in catapulting my family and our lives into severe - mental &amp; emotional distresses, financial debts &amp; hardships,devastations and ruin - that lasted for years to come - from which - we as a family were unable to survive - as an intact family.

And in spite of all we had gone through we were still being - obedient and submissive to the ministry - until I stopped going to the church 7 years later. My husband was unable to get free - so we also were divided by the same chasm that divides us as believers in Christ today from our families and our brethren who are involved in the church ;

but while the father of my children was alive - he &amp; I worked together for the sake of our children - and we were some what safe - until he died - then G&amp;M &amp; the ministry imposed themselves on &amp; inserted themselves in the middle of me and my children and influenced my children to disregard -and to behave as if I were nothing - as if I did not exist - taking my son from me - in the way I have told you.

[dew_drop]

Then a few years later my son graduated from high school &amp; I attended his graduation at the Valley Church. The principle of the school would talk about each child that was graduating When it was my son's turn to be honored as a graduate - I was sitting in the congregation with my husband &amp; the principal began speaking - emotionally from the platform - and started crying saying how much that my son was loved &amp; how that he had no one when he lost his dad and how the church had taken him in and cared for him as their own family &amp; if it wasn't for them he would not have made it - &amp; lastly how they loved him and were never going to let him go. She also spoke of his accomplishments as well in all that she spoke.

(Now the principal may have believed what she was saying to be the truth - I do not know - but I do know - that what she was saying - she was saying - in a very positive manner - but she was in essence telling the congregation I as his mother had abandoned my responsibity as a parent for my son - when his dad had died, so it was necessary for the church to rescue, save &amp; care for my child.) She did not come right out &amp; say this - but by what she did say - this is the underlying message the congregation got - from what she had said.)

I guess she thought in seeing me in the congregation that I might tell the truth as to why my son was not living with me- so the principal who was also considered as a ministry of authority was telling the congregation what she wanted the congregation to believe - so that if I did tell the people the truth - they would think I was lying.

It took me 3 more years of recovering and seeking the Lord for more answers on what did He want me to do - what could I do. If you see your brother sinning rebuke (correct ) him. If your brother sins against you rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. So this is what I began doing.

So &amp; I began writing to G&amp;M about the wrong that had taken place against me &amp; my children at the time of their dad's death. My first letter was to G&amp;M October 15 1996 (7 typed pages). 2nd letter October 17,1996 (7 typed Pages.)

When I wrote to G&amp;M I was not aware at the time- how G&amp;M had participated in influencing my children &amp; undermining me as a parent in their relationship with my children. I wrote asking for their help and if they would look in to this matter for me.

[dew_drop]

In these letters - I also wrote to G&amp;M trying to show them how the shepherds were relating wrongly and I wrote to reason with them &amp; to show them what the right way would have been for the shepherds to relate to me &amp; my sons dad - according to Christ.

Jesus was separated from His parents on a caravans Journey &amp; His mother was very upset with Him when she found Him. And He answered her with a question, did you not realize I had to be about my Father's business? The word records that His mother pondered what her son had said to her &amp; held it in her heart.

Now Jesus was 12 years old &amp; I think He was considered at this age to be by his community, to have become a man. Even so it says that He returned with His parents and remained in subjection to them. As a result He waxed strong in stature and in wisdom - finding favor both with men &amp; with God.

Honor your father &amp; mother that your days may be long upon the earth. Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is pleasing to the Lord.

And I reasoned with them in what I wrote to them. I tried to show to them how these things that were done - were against the Word of Christ and against the will of God &amp; I also reasoned with them and told them how there were losses that my son was incurring in life - as a result of not living with my self and his step dad. And I reasoned in writing showing what I thought the shepherds should have done and how they should have related to my children - they should have redirected my children to me and supported me as the mother of my children. They should have used the opportunity to teach them the Word of the God according to Christ.

My children's dad had asked my husband to watch over his 2 sons in life for him, he knew in his heart the Lord was going to take him home. There are so many grievous sorrows we leave ourselves open to suffer - when we do not abide in His Word - we all have sinned &amp; fallen short of the glory of God &amp; there is no one who can stand in the presence of the Lord except that His blood was shed for us that we might be saved .And if we sin we know we have an advocate with the Father , Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, our Lord &amp; Savior.

[dew_drop]

In all I have written here - I have not written to magnify any wrong that was done - I write to point to the Lord - we allowed those things which took place against us - in such things as I have written - we suffered the consequences which came about because we were not abiding in the instructions and commands &amp; teachings that Christ spoke to His own Diciples and to the multitudes as to how we are and are not to be related to one another. Matthew chapter 23. This is where I found the answer when I looked to the Lord to understand why such things could have happened to us.

I saw that I had to take responsibilty for the decision I had made to allow any one to spiritually or naturally rule over me - because the Lord made a provision for us - so that if we were obedient to Him then things such as this - would not be able to take place like this - if we were all relating to one another as Christ had taught and commanded .

With Love, Dew Drop

[jlintott]

Dew Drop,

It is probably water under the bridge now, but...

Appealing to a higher authority is an option.

A visit to the Family Support Division of your county's District Attorney's Office could have put an end to the usurping of your position as a mother. Usually, the court sees the natural parent(s) as being the best choice for a child.

The court has the authority to set these matters in order.

-JL

















-JL

[dew_drop]

Dear Jintott,

We as members of one another in Christ - Our very life comes from God, and I believe we are to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. This is why I try to look to the Lord to find what the will of God is in every matter.

I believe that those things that I experienced because I looked to the Lord - He was faithful to show me His will in the midst of many difficulties.

I believe that the glory of the latter house even as it is written shall be greater than the former - I also believe that my brothers &amp; sisters will come into the maturity that early church walked in. I believe God loves them - and that God by His spirit He will lead them into all the truth. I believe that any one who is willing to do Gods' will be able to recognize the Truth when He hears it.

To Love God is to keep His Commandments. And this is "love" that we keep His commandments.

I believe that the day will come when no man will say to his neighbor , Know ye the Lord for they shall all know Him from the least to the greatest. And that the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth even as the waters cover the sea.

I believe we have yet much to learn. And that it is our responsibility to seek the Lord to find what we are to do and not to do. We may stumble, fall and error all the way to getting to know Him. But if we diligently seek Him, we will find Him. He is faithful and we can depend on Him and what He has told us. We must knock and keep on knocking and His Truth - which is Him - God will reveal Him to us and He will reveal the righteousness' of our God to us - and when we see it - we will come to love His righteousness and we will also come love one another as intended when our Father called us.

Corinthians 6:1 thru 8 Does any one of you when he has a case against his neighbor dare to go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we shall judge angels?

If then you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?

I say this to your shame. It is so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,

but brother goes to law with brother &amp; that before unbelievers?

Actually then it is already a defeat for you, that you have law suits with one another. why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?

Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the earth ?...................

With Love,
Dew Drop

[jlintott]

Dew Drop,
I found myself in a new town, friendless,with nothing much more than a chair. My wife divorced me, my babies were with me perhaps 1/4 of the time. I sought the face of God,prayed with intent, read the word alot, joined a local fellowship. I stayed there in that depressing place 10 years for the sole reason of developing a good relationship with my two children. It happened. I remain a faithful father to this day.

Relationships Trump Circumstances.

I feel for you, DewDrop, I know the heartache

=JL

[changedagain]

I have many misgivings about my time in TLWF, but one thing I am very grateful for was that I was able to leave with my family intact. From what I've seen and heard, this was very rare. I never allowed church authorities to take over my role...not an easy task, as many of you know first-hand.
BTW Dew Drop, I knew your husband--quite well, in fact. He was a good man. We had many a laugh together, in very trying circumstances.

[themissinglink]

Amen Dew-Drop.....this is INDEED the Beginning and the End of the Matter.....

(it may also be part of the "shame" that John said WAS divorce, and why it had to be deeply repented of before moving any further in God...that BOTH have fallen short of His Glory and need to truly cleanse themselves in FRUITFUL repentence. Perhaps this is the very real source of some of the curse in the camp, that no FRUITFUL repentence brought restoration from God to move forward when divorce became a veritable "VOGUE"?)

John said the provision was granted, but the terms were very demanding and deep to come before the Lord with more than remorse, and not to move forward without REAL revelation, which we failed to do in SO MANY areas required, it makes me wonder if this area was not the weakest of all. The appropriate cleansing of His Altars has been tragically lacking. Not merely a dettante between the players, but the Fruit of repentence.

Kind of a segway.....but "court" with your brother, put me in mind of it. Love, gg

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dear Dew Drop;

I feel like a jerk now, I’m sorry. I was irritated by so many appearing to have a very unbalanced view of what John was actually teaching. Not to be balanced appears to me as advocating a lot of what I believe to be false teaching, which is going against God. That said, I will speak of my thoughts about these teachings later but they are not directed at you. (I will speak in general). You were intriguing because usually when one appears unbalanced in their view of John &amp;/or his teachings most of everything else they say denotes a lot of personal confusion (their general state of mind as confused), but you sound rather clear in general. I’m so sorry about your family and you will be in my prayers.

In all of my thoughts on accountability, false condemnation is never my aim. Recently, my Lord has been dealing with me about offense. Not offending others, but being offended in Christ so to speak. He has been dealing with me personally to the effect that, I have come to understand that false accountability or wasting time struggling with questions that can not be answered are a personal offense (instead of just trusting God –I hadn’t realized being offended at myself could be a form of offense or not trusting God). What I mean by that is; I said I feel like my aunt’s blood is on my hands but in reality she is older than me (she is my mother’s age) and it’s just not a realistic point of view. She is an adult, at some point all adults become accountable for themselves regardless if they are preyed upon or not. When you have a child who is disabled you can spend a lot of time in that type of thinking if you don’t just pick yourself up and move on from it. Doesn’t matter if you did nothing wrong, you still wonder “What did I do wrong?” The irony of that is, for those who love the Lord and set their hearts to be right with Him…even if a mistake was made which results in an unproductive overwhelming feeling of guilt, Jesus has forgiven it and is not for offense like this because it is destructive. One could say that is from the devil. All of that said false condemnation is never my aim. If I have ever said anything to cause any of that for you, truly I’m sorry.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; In the past couple months I have posted several different thoughts and personal stories on fact net. One of them (on another thread) discusses the beginning of the end for my family with the living word fellowship organization. This was for our family –after John had passed as well. I was very young when I had what I (don’t know what to call) a vision, I saw an ora –or something. I was probably between the ages of 10 &amp; 12 at this point. What I saw looked like the black silhouettes children draw of themselves in elementary school. They were the silhouettes of the pastor his wife and her unborn baby. Today I can liken it to Jacob’s dream, though it was much more simple and quick. Why I liken it to that is; to me it represented demons going up &amp; down or in and out of them instead of angels going up and down a ladder. I never saw anything before or after this, other wise my mother would not have believed me and would have medicated me. She has some education in psychology. It makes sense to me that this was a warning from the Lord to my family because I had spent so much time around those teachings that I was just like all those people even at that very young age. Revelation was more important than seeing Jesus save souls, having a personal revelation or seeing something grandiose was a way of being a special person to the Lord (in that line of thinking). Well I wanted to be special too, as every child does. So when I had this experience I just thought it was wonderful and proceeded to tell my mother (like it was a natural everyday event –like I saw my first ora or something…it never occurred to me at that time that it could sound to someone with a healthy mind like I needed some sort of medication or something). In any event I do believe God was speaking to us in that manner at that time (because He could, it was helpful –not harmful). It prompted my mother to start investigating (that’s when she started being referred to as contentious). Unfortunately we did not all get out before they did a lot of (here are some key words) “usurping of authority” (parental authority) themselves. In much the same way they set my mother up as “the bad one”. Unfortunately I am guilty of falling for a lot of that crap myself. It took years to recover. Now my mother and I have a healthy and very close relationship. But they absolutely did manipulate, divide and destroy our family. Our family split up (divorce, teenager running wild –me). Our family never recovered as a unit. The tactics you have spoken of are very familiar to me, from that group –to attack in the day of calamity. It is disgusting before our Lord. They may or may not know what they do, but God does and still it is disgusting before Him.
In saying all of that about what I believe I saw, it’s not my intent to down play God speaking to people. What is my point is to say that God does speak to people in a way that they will understand or a way that will produce positive results. Though I did not understand it then, it prompted my mother to investigate it (it was the beginning of our journey out) and it has helped me to have a full restoration later. I wasn’t the only child God spoke to in like ways. He also spoke to my best friend at the time, she used to have a reoccurring dream that these demons were laying their hands on her and pushing her down (like when the brothers would lay their hands on us and pray or ‘bless’ us). (At that time in my life, I did not read the Bible as often as I do today.)

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; In the past couple months I have posted several different thoughts and personal stories on fact net. One of them (on another thread) discusses the beginning of the end for my family with the living word fellowship organization. This was for our family –after John had passed as well. I was very young when I had what I (don’t know what to call) a vision, I saw an ora –or something. I was probably between the ages of 10 &amp; 12 at this point. What I saw looked like the black silhouettes children draw of themselves in elementary school. They were the silhouettes of the pastor his wife and her unborn baby. Today I can liken it to Jacob’s dream, though it was much more simple and quick. Why I liken it to that is; to me it represented demons going up &amp; down or in and out of them instead of angels going up and down a ladder. I never saw anything before or after this, other wise my mother would not have believed me and would have medicated me. She has some education in psychology. It makes sense to me that this was a warning from the Lord to my family because I had spent so much time around those teachings that I was just like all those people even at that very young age. Revelation was more important than seeing Jesus save souls, having a personal revelation or seeing something grandiose was a way of being a special person to the Lord (in that line of thinking). Well I wanted to be special too, as every child does. So when I had this experience I just thought it was wonderful and proceeded to tell my mother (like it was a natural everyday event –like I saw my first ora or something…it never occurred to me at that time that it could sound to someone with a healthy mind like I needed some sort of medication or something). In any event I do believe God was speaking to us in that manner at that time (because He could, it was helpful –not harmful). It prompted my mother to start investigating (that’s when she started being referred to as contentious). Unfortunately we did not all get out before they did a lot of (here are some key words) “usurping of authority” (parental authority) themselves. In much the same way they set my mother up as “the bad one”. Unfortunately I am guilty of falling for a lot of that crap myself. It took years to recover. Now my mother and I have a healthy and very close relationship. But they absolutely did manipulate, divide and destroy our family. Our family split up (divorce, teenager running wild –me). Our family never recovered as a unit. The tactics you have spoken of are very familiar to me, from that group –to attack in the day of calamity. It is disgusting before our Lord. They may or may not know what they do, but God does and still it is disgusting before Him.

In saying all of that about what I believe I saw, it’s not my intent to down play God speaking to people. What is my point is to say that God does speak to people in a way that they will understand or a way that will produce positive results. Though I did not understand it then, it prompted my mother to investigate it (it was the beginning of our journey out) and it has helped me to have a full restoration later. I wasn’t the only child God spoke to in like ways. He also spoke to my best friend at the time, she used to have a reoccurring dream that these demons were laying their hands on her and pushing her down (like when the brothers would lay their hands on us and pray or ‘bless’ us). (At that time in my life, I did not read the Bible as often as I do today.)

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; I finally have a healthy relationship with Jesus. I don’t need to have grandiose experiences to feel like He is real. I am fine with being an ordinary person who looks for Him in the scriptures and finds Him there. I know that I know now, that salvation is the greatest miracle. Not resurrection of someone who should be happy to be with the Lord in Heaven or even a miracle. I do believe God can do anything, and does do some miracles that can not be easily explained. However if my son is never healed of autism as so many children are not, I still believe that God is a good God and He is who He says He is. I still believe that salvation absolutely is the greatest but most overlooked miracle of all. He said blessed are those mourn now…..but still know who He is and believe and abide in Jesus (very bad paraphrase –sorry), but truth.

Though I know this to be the experience of myself, in my generation in that organization (having to work through these grandiose –me, me, me thought patterns) it may be different for those who are still there, I don’t know. But I do know this; the Lord allowed me to experience what being consistently attacked in your day of calamity is like. I have had some experiences with trying to save my child while others who should have been with me or at least not overstepped their boundaries were working against my child and against me. On a very personal level I see it as a great sin to step between a mother and her child. It is like cutting the life line to a child floating aimlessly on a raft. I also have experienced some of what it is like to try to reach a child after that life line is cut, often the child (as I once did) rages against saving Grace in any form (be it the love of a mother or Jesus Himself). Unfortunately, the child does not understand any of it –really. But I am thankful for that experience now that it is over. Because of it, I can relate to and understand what was really happening to my mother and who those people really are. It is quite the miracle that God would take something bad and bring good out of it to the extent of a fully restored relationship between my mother and I, even beyond that, it seemed to be priority over other things I thought I needed. God really is concerned with the heart and heart matters above all else, after all salvation is a heart matter.

All of that said, though I don’t expect –if you ever want to chat with my mother or me you are more than welcome to address either of us on my email. bigbmogan@charter.net
Otherwise, after this I probably won’t be on this site for awhile due to an extremely hectic schedule.

Much Love to You and Yours,
Truth is a Choice

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; my mother wants to respond to you directly concerning what you wrote to me about John Robert Steven’s teachings on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 -6:28p.m. (pg. 3 of 4);

I agree John was a good speaker and had a gift to bring the Old Testament to life. But why was it that he rarely had alter calls for those who have not given their heart to Christ. Why was evangelism not important to John? If he truly wanted you to get to know God then evangelism &amp; the saving of souls would have been important to him, and it truly wasn’t. John getting some big revelation from God was way more important to John than evangelism. John was always seeking for something grandiose from God to share with the little congregation. It sort of kept John like a Lord over this congregation –don’t you think. John had a hunger alright. But what really was he hungry for? It seemed to me that it was revelation revelation revelation. It had nothing to do with people who was what God thought was important. God thinks we as people are so important that God gave His only Son Jesus Christ as the Lamb of Atonement for our sins. Evangelism is very important to God.

If you read the Bible you will find there were no secret tapes in the Bible. Jesus spoke in parables but that had more to do with the Sadducees &amp; unbelievers. I never heard John talk in parables since he was so concerned about shielding the word of God keeping the meat from the babes. But I did hear on one of those restricted tapes a lot of verbal &amp; mental abuse and even a vulgar sexual connotation spoken towards a woman concerning how important her husband’s ministry was. Oh here we go again, what was important to John the grandiosity of some man’s ministry. Funny thing is God protects His people. God doesn’t really need John &amp; his vulgarness to do that job for Him. I think Gods a little bigger than that. Once you get to really know God you’ll realize that you don’t need John R Stevens to protect you &amp; your ministry. God protects His own and doesn’t have to get vulgar to do so. Sometimes what comes out of a man’s mouth tells you more about them then any of their outward facad.



Reincarnation= How do we know that the references to reincarnation aren’t basically the reincarnation of the ministry itself instead of the actual person’s spirit.

[truth_is_a_choice]

I believe it all started with John Robert Stevens and his teachings. The pastors, brothers (whatever one wants to call the ministers in that group today) are the fruit of what John taught and who he really was before the Lord. That is why anyone can say that more false prophets would come out of that organization than anywhere else. That is not some great prophecy, or revelation and it doesn’t make John a true prophet. Any fool could say that then and now. It proves nothing but the truth that John was a false prophet and it all originated with him. John was a false prophet and so are all those who still covet his teachings and preach from them today.

I heard one recall John saying he had nothing to apologize for in all his years of preaching, as though he never said anything wrong. The Word of God which testifies of the truth (Jesus) needs no apology. Those are the teachings that need no apology. John wasn’t perfect neither was what he spoke. Much of what he spoke was spoken from the mouth of a false prophet, regardless of his many grandiose personal experiences with the Lord –which he exploited as a way to wield power.

John was not Moses nor was he anything like Moses. There aren’t any angels trying to defend his corpse, his personality, teachings or who he was before the Lord. It is more likely that there are some demons defending him today. John was concerned with and coveted the glory of Moses.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Or rather it was the glory of Jesus that he coveted….

There was a lot of focus on the old testament in that group, which started with John.

2 Corinthians chapter 3 &amp; 4

“2 Corinthians 3:7&amp;8 Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away, [Exod. 34:29-35] Why should not the dispensation of the Spirit [this Spiritual ministry whose task it is to cause men to obtain and be governed by the Holy Spirit] be attended with much greater and more splendid glory?” (AMP)

“2 Corinthians 4:2-7 We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhanded-ness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery or cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man’s conscience. But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost. For the god of this world has blinded the unbeliever’s minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God. For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus’ sake. For God Who said, Let Light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [Gen. 1:3] However, we possess this precious treasure [the divine Light of the Gospel] in [frail, human] vessels of earth, that the grandeur and exceeding greatness of the power may be shown to be from God and not from ourselves.” (AMP)

[truth_is_a_choice]

Following Jesus is not about being the manifested sons of God in the earth, as much as it is about Jesus, God. Men don’t save men, Jesus saves men. After God Himself, salvation is the greatest miracle and if anyone reads the Bible they will see that Jesus teaches salvation as the greatest miracle and we should not covet or preach other things over and above this miracle.

I have pointed these things out because John’s teachings had and have a negative effect on many people. However we know that the devil is the one who twists God’s word for his own purpose and accuses the brethren. That age old serpent (the devil) uses people (even people who are or claim to be of God and right with Him) whenever he can.


Truth is a Choice

[dew_drop]

Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay, &amp; opened his eyes.
Again therefore, the Pharisees also were asking him how he received his sight. And he said to them, "He applied clay to my eyes, &amp; I washed . &amp; I see.

Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying,"this man is not from God because He does not keep the Sabbath." But other were saying, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such "signs?"
And there was a division among them.

They * said therefore to the blind man *again, "What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?" And he said,"He is a prophet."

The Jews therefore did not believe it of him, that he had been blind &amp; had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight,

and questioned them , saying, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? Then how does he now see?"

His parents answered them &amp; said, "We know this is our son, &amp; he was born blind; but how he sees we do not know. Ask him, he is of age &amp; shall speak for himself."

His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed , if any one should confess Him to be Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

For this reason his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."

So a 2nd time they called the man who had been blind, "Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner."
He therefore answered, "whether He is a sinner I do not know, one thing I do know; that where as I was blind, now I see."
They said therefore to him, "What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?"

He answered them, "I told you already, &amp; you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?" John 9:14-27

[dew_drop]

Dear Truth is a Choice,
Would you ask your mother if she requested special ministry from John Stevens for you when you were are 3 or 4 years old, at Grace Chapel of South Gate ?
Thank you for the invite (email Address)- I don't really have time to communicate more than I am at this time - I work a lot of hours and am on the road many of those hours for my work. So I hope you won't feel hurt in any way - I just don't have the time to begin another relationship at this time.
With Love, Dew Drop
------------------------------------------------
Dear Jintott,
I am so happy for you that you have a good relationship with your 2 children -that your outcome, was rewarded thru your faithfulness. I pursued a relationship with my own dad since I was 12 years old and I too have been rewarded. My dad would not have known me nor I him - had I not followed him where ever he went &amp; now I am blessed to share these years with him - he is 80 now and we both are each thankful &amp; glad to know each other, This is how it should be. He tells me that he still sees me as a kid. Isn't that funny - a 60 year old kid, but I see my kids - the oldest being 41 years old. as kids too! Life is funny how it all seems to work out.
Take Care, thanks for the kind words - With Love, Dew Drop
-------------------------------
Dear Changed again,
I am glad you made it thru the difficult times with your family intact. There is no such thing as I wish I coulda, woulda, shoulda but I can take the things I have learned from where I missed it in life my self and apply it and live it today &amp; in the now. I don't know who any of you are - except The Missing Link. . but I enjoy relating to you by what you write - I am glad you had some good laughs with my husband, I will always love him, he is probably singing with the angels &amp; all the psalmists in heaven.
With Love, Dew Drop
-------------------------------
Dear Missing Link,
What you said about the shame of going to court for a divorce- I had not thought of this - but what you said is so true. We just don't realize how deep this affects not only our selves but it affects so many peoples lives - if goes beyond our own families.
His grace is sufficient - for us to come into keeping His Word. He is faithful when we are unfaithful, He loves us unconditionally - He is the same yesterday, Today &amp; forever and there is no shadow in His turning. May we learn from all our trespasses against Him,
He will forgive us when we ask for His forgiveness - if we forgive one another when we ask for one another's
forgiveness.
Love, Dew Drop

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dew Drop; of course i'm not offended or hurt in anyway. I'm glad that you are not offended by the fact that others have different experiences with John than you have witnessed to having, and express them here. Take care, goodbye
Truth is a Choice

[larry_bobo]

Many have expressed, in one way or another, the need vent their anger over wounds, injustices, false teachings etc. and I do think it is part of the path to healing. I’ve posted more than my share of the above on many of these threads over the past several years. It’s important to be honest about the pain, but it’s equally important to recognize that our sincerity does not necessarily mean we fully understand God’s truth about the matter.

Sons must suffer. It’s not fun. It’s part of the purification process as God imparts to us a new nature and we choose to put to death an old nature, because we love Him. Nothing brings to the surface an old nature like injustice. Think of Jesus living a sinless life and going through the abandonment of His Father over our sins. It was the greatest injustice of all time. It also validated to all creation that He was in fact, the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Think of the life of Joseph. His obedience to the word of God over his life seemed to bring ruin and imprisonment. As God purified and brought humility to his heart, it was only one step to the throne. He found him self weeping over and being the answer to those who thought to bring him harm. It’s the pattern of a son.

It’s so easy to let sonship become lost in the mire of the process so that even the word becomes offensive and floods our minds with painful thoughts. Bringing many sons to glory is the original intent of the Father, when He created humans. With a free will, who will choose to love Him at the loss of all things? Who will pay the price to find the narrow path and face being utterly broken? The reward far exceeds the price to be paid.

I’ve spent hundreds of hours of research trying to separate the precious from the vile from my time in TLWF. I don’t believe the answer can even be found looking in that direction. It would be like Joseph, scrutinizing the validity of his imprisonment. It didn’t matter whether it was fair or not. God had something far bigger in mind. His blessing far exceeded the cost.

It is a walk with God. He alone is our Father. He so perfectly orders our steps for an outcome far beyond anything we could ask or think. Our own failures and the failures of others cannot stop His plans for us as we continue to walk on and obey His commands.

There is a unique opportunity in the Kingdom for those who will choose brokenness over bitterness. We must focus on the One who orders the situations where we will be positioned to make that decision, and not become lost in the situation itself. Remember your first love. It’s the first and most important command. It’s the reason we so deeply loved the worship. We just wanted to be with Him. He hasn’t gone anywhere. He is the reward. What an exceedingly great privilege to spend time in His presence.

[themissinglink]

Wow! What beautiful "Manao" as the Hawaiians call pure spiritual Force! What heavenly nourishment and Bread!

Dew Drop--your choice of Scripture Iterates flawlessly and addresses every issue.

Dearest Bobo-- the "mud" her choice touched on is surely the same as the "prison experience" you selected. HOW articulate.

3 years after the passing of my husband, the Lord spoke to me that on the 3rd Day He would raise me up to live before His Face, and part of the Unfolding of that healing was being brought by vision to the pit the brothers had dug and thrown their brother Joseph into. Relief filled my heart instantly with the Gift of that understanding. and He said, "They will YET receive their release through him!"

First-Love and Rest were restored to me. That is only one of the many tendermercies visited upon my heart amidst all the severity of scourging and chastening and discipline. We surely have come to the Hour that the Lord has intended to PROVE Himself Faithful in all preparations He provided.

You know, it was SO disproportionate, that not only the glory, and YES, Revelation granted to a friend of the Lord, should overflow to all of us to luxuriate in--though undoubtedly it was a foretaste and a wooing of the Spirit. That rested on the maturity of discipline John carried in the very flawed earthen vessel that made it SO clear the Glory was the LORD's ALONE----and that caused him to "boast" in the weakness that housed such a gifting of RELATIONSHIP------- that overflowed to us in our unseasoned presumptions, much as a good father humors with great love, the attempts of a very young son puffing out its chest with pride at handling a hammer alongside the expert craftsmanship of his father, and looking proudly into his eyes for the recognition of the superior support he was offering. The father, lovingly in trust of the hour the son would actually inherit that posture in Spirit and in Truth, lends his full affirmation.

To a VERY great and real extent, John did this amongst us all, though his heart truly only wanted to walk with God. That fixed focus on the Lord is what weilded the precious fruit of his communion, which we could only wonder at. FAR from being grandiose, it was a display of something only RELATIONSHIP through the Fire could produce, and something precious, ultimately destined for us all. Even as the Lord said, "you WILL all drink this cup" when they were rallying and vying for positions of favor.....we were set up!

Of course many children suffered the ineptitudes of parents and the immaturity of all ministries. Birth is MESSY, BLOODY, and undignified. Yet out of the wreckage, comes forth a manchild. After he is washed, and strengthened and clothed in white linen, with a fair mitre on his head, all will forget the pain that passes for the joy of a son!

John used to say, what is a young prophet worth.... a million dollars? how much? are we willing to so love our brother, that we lay our life down for him? (That means, OUR LIFE DOWN for him?) And certainly the fine print he used to laugh about our discovering step by step after we sign the "contract" with the Lord....has and is found/finding us all out.

[themissinglink]

continued....

We were content in John's overflow even as a child basks in that honored immaturity. He, however, suffered many things, far more than any of us hoped we would EVER have to traverse. We just wanted the rewards of his suffering....not to actually die a criminal's death ourselves with all its "fringe" benefits of pain.

SURPRISE! God is NO respecter of persons, and altogether Just, and not mocked, as every Word returns to Him fulfilled. We can no more interpret correctly all that God required of him, that we can adequately judge each other. However, it is an easy thing to spot the fruit of the birthing that cost us all so dearly----BY the Faithful hand of the Lord....and we in turn stand in the gap as midwives to see EVERY son promised make their way out of their shells.

Remember John used to talk about the chicken needing to crack his own shell, where sympathy might lend a hand and the very interference in releasing that chick would cause its death as it needed the strength of that process to LIVE! Think of the pain his sharing the Lord's heart for each of us, set out into a "Wilderness of Pain" until such a time...... it is surely a FEARFUL thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God.....particularly if forgiveness has not been successfully baptized into our being. The vast Unlimited Joy and Communion with the Lord Himself was the sole PURPOSE for us all! And how utterly devestating and remarkably Wroght by Him with whom we have to do! The Good Seed will surely overtake us all, as we wrestle and refuse to let Him go until He blesses us with a new name and nature.

He is NOT a tame Lion you know!!! Mighty, Terrible, and fearfully altogether Beautiful!
He dwarfs the idiot ape into insignificance! How Magnificent is His Faithfulness. He is SO thorough! Those who have found the Reward of His Presence utterly overwhelming and consuming, cannot but stand in the gap for the rest of the brethren to leapfrog into the Beauty of Holiness where the brethren will all dwell in unity--- together forever!

NOTHING will stop the outcome. And the pain of the Cross, which is undefinably unique and excruciating as it succeeds in its mission of release to those who embrace it.....fades away without a whimper in the Glory set before us. We thought we knew when and how that cross was wrought, but it is surely the Spirit of God that does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. The Great Physician, coming like a Master Surgeon with coldblooded Scientific neutrality, to perform the surgery of our hearts, separating bone from marrow, soul from spirit....unto our UTTER salvation.

Initial Salvation is indeed a miracle, but the conclusion of the matter is the redemption of the WHOLE man, body soul and spirit, saved to the UTTERmost! The Glory of the Latter House shall be greater than the former, with cries of "Grace! Grace!"

continued....

[themissinglink]

continued~

ONLY HE is Grandiose, Jealous, Uncompromisingly Passionate.....and it becomes the Intimate Communion and Secret Manna that we shall all find as we help and find each other and ourselves, unwrapped. Greater is the End of the Matter than the Beginning thereof!

(My thought on the Holy Roll of pain begun by the baptism of "MuD" we were all fortunate to find ourselves in, is indeed the honor of Joseph's Promise.....to release and feed multitudes in the Hour of Need and REvelation.)

One footnote as well---(for dancing feet!) This thing is so much larger than our thoughts can take in, and He is the Choreographer and doesn't really mind our opinions as they will pass away by Fire....He alone will have His Way...John was one of the greatest evangelists the country knew, before God pulled him aside for the Living Word, and the preparation of "Laborers" unto the Greater Harvest that is yet to come. The desire to see souls saved, burned in him, but his vision as required by the LOrd, was to prepare....as many already could continue and have, in that quarter.

....but the Army that won't break ranks, and will endure the blast to come with the strength of the Leading of the Lamb, to see many lambs rescued from the chicken hawks....even many christians that are sleighted for great tribulation......this was a Delta Force move of God's Spirit...and the cost was total (it surely cost him his reputation, which he had to willingly abandon for the thankless task of setting the detonators in place and begin a Fire that shall NOT be quenched).

...no more "grandiose" or preferential or exclusive than Joseph....who because of his calling, needs be, must be reduced in abject humility to handle the calling without being destroyed in pride. Just a brother was Joseph....one of many, but with an assignment, that only his sufferings actually caused him to fulfill correctly.

John drank his cup. We will drink ours. The Fire that was set upon us, was for the saving of many Alive to Him. The details of this Story, can only be procured in Intimacy formed by the Grace obtained by the beach head of many gone before us, at the Hand of the Living God.(This will be our most precious reward, our ONLY Reward actually, to dwell in Intimate Relationship with Him who makes known all His Ways to His servants become FRIENDS to Him. Is God Enough For YOU?

We honor the Body in all its parts, and ask the Lord to Finish in us that which HE began to the Glory of the Father.....and neatly fit where it pleases Him. What a Mystery! What a Majestic Privilege are we as the joints of His Body, come into ONE by the Faithfulness of His Fire.

Think it not strange......for the Joy set before us. Love, Link

[themissinglink]

In rereading what I posted, with far more verbosity than my sister and brother (both of whom fulfilled the faithful old adage "cut it short on both ends, and set it on Fire in the middle).... I do not want to appear cryptic, as well as taxing your endurance.

What I meant CLEARLY in the vision below, was that He showed me Jerry experiencing what Joseph had:

~~~~~3 years after the passing of my husband, the Lord spoke to me that on the 3rd Day He would raise me up to live before His Face, and part of the Unfolding of that healing was being brought by vision to the pit the brothers had dug and thrown their brother Joseph into. Relief filled my heart instantly with the Gift of that understanding. and He said, "They will YET receive their release through him!"

First-Love and Rest were restored to me. That is only one of the many tendermercies visited upon my heart amidst all the severity of scourging and chastening and discipline. We surely have come to the Hour that the Lord has intended to PROVE Himself Faithful in all preparations He provided. ~~~~~~

[now_what]

truth_is_a_choice

You wrote: My grandmother was once an avid follower of his many many years ago, much as you sound to be today. There wasn't any disbelief about it. I knew he preached about reincarnation, even knew the scripture references. I've never been offended by it. I was just picking another person's brain to see if they remembered any more than I did about it. But you feel free to discern my emotional state and my heart any time I love a good chat.

I feel free to point out you seem to be filled with rage, and go out of your way to libel JRS on this board. In order to call someone a false prophet I guess you would have to consider yourself a true prophet. I witnessed John's love for people first hand and it was extraordinary, I have yet to see it at the same level anywhere in Christianity, and certainly not from you.

Take heed to some of John's basic teachings (Right out of the Sermon on the Mount!) about having a right spirit, and to be honest you do not have a right spirit, something is stuck in your craw. Even David did not touch Saul, he left it to God.

You are going on about the wrong focus in the Walk and JRS was not into saving souls. I would bet if that is the currency of heaven, John will be buying a house in the better sections. Thousands came to Christ though his ministry, you will have to get busy to measure up to your own demands of proof of being on the right track with God.

And to look at the outcome of something right now, and make your singular judgments, then what about Christianity as a whole? Pretty much a mess, I guess by your criteria we should blame Christ, after all He started it all. Are you aware you sound like a Pharisee?

Paul Trowbridge

[now_what]

truth_is_a_choice

You wrote: It sort of kept John like a Lord over this congregation –don’t you think. John had a hunger alright. But what really was he hungry for? It seemed to me that it was revelation revelation revelation. It had nothing to do with people who was what God thought was important. God thinks we as people are so important that God gave His only Son Jesus Christ as the Lamb of Atonement for our sins. Evangelism is very important to God.

If you read the Bible you will find there were no secret tapes in the Bible. Jesus spoke in parables but that had more to do with the Sadducees &amp; unbelievers. I never heard John talk in parables since he was so concerned about shielding the word of God keeping the meat from the babes. But I did hear on one of those restricted tapes a lot of verbal &amp; mental abuse and even a vulgar sexual connotation spoken towards a woman concerning how important her husband’s ministry was. Oh here we go again, what was important to John the grandiosity of some man’s ministry.)

What nonsense, and all mixed with offended religiosity because you heard some actual non-religious and adult language on a restricted tape, and it was exactly because of immature reactions like yours that they were restricted.

Jesus spoke many things that were not written down as John tells us at the end of his gospel. Jesus did not speak in King James, he also gave deeper teachings and experiences to those that were on a deeper spiritual level, such as Peter, James, and John, not all the twelve went to the Mount of Transfiguration.

John was not against evangelism, what do you think the Bless-in services were all about? How many came to Christ in those services? John simply pointed out that the excessive focus on evangelism in mainstream Christianity was like hatching chickens for the hawks, as people were not matured or walked into a deeper relationship and deeper experiences with God.

And to imply that John was not concerned or did not love the sinner is really laughable. Do you know of his agonizing and weeping over so many? Of his utter humility and weeping over R.D. Cronquist? My Uncle saw that in person, and R.D. continued in a perverse way but John did not rail against him, just wept, even after the end of the phone call, all he could do was weep and pray...THAT WAS JOHN, not your distorted and mean-spirited picture.

I know of one young brother that came into the Valley church who had been into the drugs and a very bad scene in San Francisco. In some service someone offended him, do not remember the exact circumstances. He walked out of the Church, perhaps for good, and John saw this and stopped the sermon and ran outside and caught up to this young man weeping and telling him he would not let him go.

This is just one story of many. You don't know what you are talking about, I think you need to talk to others besides whoever you have been talking to. Of course JRS was not perfect, but to cast these slanders are absurd to me when I know the EXACT opposite to be true of John.

Many of the problems that happened in the Walk and perhaps later, IMO was because John did not put the hammer down on some ministry that was messing up, as he had a word that he told us over and over, God had told him to have faith for every man put under his hand. And to criticize John for reaching into revelation as some salve to his ego?

Did you know you cannot know the Lord except by revelation? John's singular drive was to know the Lord, so that would be coupled with revelation.

[winterland]

Paul, You write...."I witnessed John's love for people first hand and it was extraordinary"....

Since the title of this thread is "Sons of God and Nephilim," I wonder how different things could have been in the Walk if this love had been demonstrated instead of cursing our brothers with nephilim titles.

And dear dear Link you write...."First love and rest were restored to me. That is one of the many tendermercies visited upon my heart amidst all the severity of scourging and chastening and discipline."

What a beautiful testimony you have. I too experienced the agony and pain at the hands of "the brethren" who I had faithfully served for years. But the Lord used this devestation to cause me to seek Him and I have experienced such a deep love of the Lord that came out of this brokeness. And the work of the Lord in my life that came through this "fire" is priceless.

The Lord uses so many things to work this brokeness in our lives. We will all come to a place in our lives where we can only turn to HIM. There is nothing else.

[liamthomas]

What_Now,

Very well Put!

God Bless,
Liam

[liamthomas]

Sorry Paul .. it is my dyslexia!

It has really blessed me to read your posts. I was fortunate to grow up as a young adult under John... I tell anyone who asks... John was my spiritual mentor ...he married me and my now ex ... of all men... John had a gift.. he could reach through all the BS... and relate to you as a real human being... with all the frailties of the flesh... and touch your heart with the love of the Lord and say "You're ok son ... seek His face to know His will."

Feel free to email me at liamthomasusa@yahoo.com

[larry_bobo]

Paul said,
"I know of one young brother that came into the Valley church who had been into the drugs and a very bad scene in San Francisco. In some service someone offended him, do not remember the exact circumstances. He walked out of the Church, perhaps for good, and John saw this and stopped the sermon and ran outside and caught up to this young man weeping and telling him he would not let him go."

This example reflects the John I knew. I'm thankful for the light that gg has shed which has helped me to separate the John I loved from the wounding that happened at the hands of his followers. How tragic to be so deeply hurt and then be accused of a bad spirit when you make an effort to communicate it. It doesn't seem to match the above example of John.

winterland said,
"What a beautiful testimony you have. I too experienced the agony and pain at the hands of "the brethren" who I had faithfully served for years. But the Lord used this devestation to cause me to seek Him and I have experienced such a deep love of the Lord that came out of this brokeness. And the work of the Lord in my life that came through this "fire" is priceless."

To even express that story still causes the same backlash it once did. Having to face changing the TLWF system is too high of a price to pay for lives that really don't matter, now that they've left the fellowship. I, for one, honor your heart. It is as you say, priceless. It should encourage all of us to continue to press on for the true prize that does not lie under the control of another human. You certainly are not alone in your pursuit.

[patrick]

Ye shall know a tree by it's fruit. The fruit of JRS's ministry is so overwhelmingly Godly and positive that one who have to gainsay the scriptures themselves to think otherwise. A false prophet cannot bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. It can't be done: what's born of the flesh is flesh.

John is the Lord's servant and so he is persectuted as the prophets that were before him. When you love and serve the Lord the way he did, there is something false to be sure: the accusations (which are really against the Lord Himself: If they hated me they will hate you.)

[patrick]

Ye shall know a tree by it's fruit. The fruit of JRS's ministry is so overwhelmingly Godly and positive that one would have to gainsay the scriptures themselves to think otherwise. A false prophet cannot bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. It can't be done: what's born of the flesh is flesh.

John is the Lord's servant and so he is persectuted as the prophets that were before him. When you love and serve the Lord the way he did, there is something false to be sure: the accusations (which are really against the Lord Himself: If they hated me they will hate you.)

[larry_bobo]

"He is NOT a tame Lion you know!!! Mighty, Terrible, and fearfully altogether Beautiful!
He dwarfs the idiot ape into insignificance! How Magnificent is His Faithfulness. He is SO thorough! Those who have found the Reward of His Presence utterly overwhelming and consuming, cannot but stand in the gap for the rest of the brethren to leapfrog into the Beauty of Holiness where the brethren will all dwell in unity--- together forever!"

Hidden in your words is the evidence you've walked the path. Each phrase reveals the next step. How else could you know? I salute the Christ in you! Is this as fun for you to do in plain sight? You must laugh as well.

[jlintott]

TIAC,

Welcome back from your break. I hope you returned refreshed and rested.

Is your mother still going to enter her opinion here?

I would appreciate hearing her story too.

=JL

[themissinglink]

Secret tapes: It was restricted, not secret. Could it be that this was the radical (at the time to many, but common sense to me) Divine Order Man and Woman....?

"the "grandiose" preference of man"....even as John knew he would get severe backwash.....was against the castrating spirit that assaulted men's ministries in the woman's uncrucified agendas.

The comment John made in that declaration which certainly DIDN'T pull any punches, ....was that that female spirit might as well go the whole route and cut off its tit and join the ranks openly of the Amazon tribe the better to aim their arrows.

Much in this tape could be considered mental and whatever by any she who might cry "abuse" to the state of heart it was addressing. Unfortunately, the true Fruit of the matter is yet to come.

The sexual connotations of castration and tit cutting would be enough incite an hysterical response..and he commented when delivering it anyway, that he had a dread of the backlash, but a greater dread not to name it.

Evasion is the spirit the Lord showed me long ago was the one thing He could not get past in delivering the "whore" He was calling to repentence. My initial meeting with the Lord on the Big Beach of Makena in Maui in 1969....was that I was the Whore Bride of the most loving, patient and longsuffering Shepherd Husband I could NOT even imagine....and the anointing drove the point home like a stake through my heart and spine pinning me to the ground before Him.

Thus, the most gruesome pleas in the scriptures, have all been intimate Love Letters to me from the beginning. It made me appear quite shameless in weeping identification with every rebuke, and over the top, from the get go in being an "obnoxious dog" in pursuit of Him!

He showed me His tears in the ultimate vision of His plunging a knife into the reprobate evasive whore's heart after the time times and a half of His contending with her. EVASION is the enemy,--- whoredom can be washed away by His tears, but the evasion refuses to come when called.

WE however, in our old natures, wait to see this knifing as vengeful, not tearful to the Lord who DIED for her stiffneck and hardened heart. Until we realize the Grace we can obtain boldly to surrender our evasion, WE exclude ourselves.

The tears you describe seeing in John, are what I remember so clearly myself. (Winterland, my dearly beloved.....I would that you could have witnessed in proximity, though the distance was probably sparing you other things unto the End the Lord had for your "joint" to play.)

These tears were the Lord's to be sure, and the Gift so missing and called for by John himself in pleading with us to pursue God's Heart. Had it been obtained, do you really think so many brethren could have been cut so deeply? Especially when he commanded us to hold each other before Him, and not to relent in faith for each other.

Yet even as with Paul when conviction won out, the pain he had inflicted, drove him to respond unto death in the gratitude of Understanding. May it be so with MANY within the ranks of the pain inflicted.

[themissinglink]

* In this message (and in general)...John wanted the women set free to function, but NOT with the escaping the Cross implied and necessary. A lot of this points to the enmity that successfully Double crossed.

Divine Order was never meant to be what soulish counterfeiting aped.... It was protection for the women from deception unto the cross and release, IF they ever found the posture in Spirit and in Truth as unto the Lord, that He was prescribing unto the launching and liberty beyond male and female that is our rightful inheritance......(WITHOUT passing go and collecting $200 dollars! (monolopy, remember?)


Robbers and thieves passed the firey cherubim and forced entry into the "inheritance" of Liberty in these things. The atmosphere and travesty of all these things thrown by the wayside, must be Cleansed and the Altars of our hearts purified that His Will be accomplished IN us as it is in heaven! So it was Written, so let it be done!

It is all about Dancing with the King! It is not something to be thrown off-- this learning to surrender to the Master Leading! It is the Beauty of Relationship, Intimacy, and the Dance!
God is "Fred Astaire" and I want to Dance Gingerly!


THEN shall we know the Liberty of the Sons, where we are launched by the Cross far above principality and power, where we are no longer male nor female.....bond nor free......the GLORIOUS Liberty ordained for us to share where we indeed shall judge angels by the Righteousness housed within. Love Link

[themissinglink]

PS--- this crucifixion of the woman by surrender to Him, is truly the laying down our lives for our brother, when done in Spirit and in Truth...

and in NO WAY will He waste that life lost, but surely cause us to FIND it ----in Spirit and in Truth!

[jlintott]

Praying for somebody's death is not a good idea.
It is not what Jesus did, even to Judas Iscariot.


Didn't you notice that Martha Stevens lived a normal lifespan?

Yet John Stevens passed away shortly after the churches began praying against Martha Stevens.

All that cumulative agreement, binding, loosing judgement, etc., was obviously not honored by God.

It seems that mercy triumphs over judgement.

I sat next to Martha Stevens in Anaheim services during the feast of Tabernacles. She seemed nice. Was sitting up front, near John (who was preaching)
She wasn't a babe, but JRS spoke fondly of her. I do remember him speaking well of her (from the pulpit)

That, of course, was before she became the scourge of jezebel to the churches.

I believe we were all in error.
We covered ourselves with well crafted excuses.
We should have sought God to heal and mend the wound.

-JL

[jlintott]

link-aloha!

I like the line:

God is "Fred Astair, and I want to Dance Gingerly.!!!

That is too much!!

Best Wishes-JL

[winterland]

Dear, dear Link, It is always wonderful to hear your musical voice.

JL writes, "I believe we were all in error... We should have sought God to heal and mend the wound."

I'd like to confirm that.

I Cor 3:5-7 Tells us who brings the growth

[themissinglink]

I believe John loved Martha very much, and it is a deep and troublesome matter, that was aggravated further by immature zeal and misfires.
Definitely too deep and weighty a matter for the hands into which it fell. The Lord knows the depth and the Mystery of the matter, AND the resolution.

One day we shall know as we are known, and there will be nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

I agree.... we were all in error.

[larry_bobo]

When I was about 15 (1970), the Lord gave me several songs. The first came very quickly, with words beyond my former Baptist insight or vocabulary. It was the first time I knew for sure, that God had touched me. Over the past several weeks, in light of some of the discussions on Factnet, that first song has been haunting me once again.
Here are the words:

Be of comfort who mourn in Zion,
The King returns to you,
Joyfully skipping on the mountain tops.
With a shout of laughter He anoints your head.

He is becoming one with you,
You are becoming one with Him.

Clothed in white you will stand before Him,
Purified by fire;
A garland of praise to adorn your heart,
Everlasting joy upon your head.

He is becoming one with you,
You are becoming one with Him.

It’s through you He will heal the nations,
Bind up all their wounds,
Refresh them as the dew upon the earth.
The captive ones will dance before their King; for…

He is becoming one with you,
You are becoming one with Him.

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dear Dew Drop,In reference to Jan. 10th 2008. When and if your Son gets married you have to go to the wedding. That is what is good for your son. Don't ever doubt that. I know exactly how these people usurp your authority as a parent. They tried to do the same thing with me.However I never had the added vunerability of a husband who passed away at the same time that they were full stream ahead in thier persuit. For these people to take advantage of this family in this vunerable time gives me a diferent opinion about them than what you have. I really don't and diden't back then in my life think that these people were really my brothers and sisters before God because brothers and sisters don't act like that unless they are very disfunctional.You see I believe that God has revealed to me that when your the parent because of your love for that child God gives you special insite to the children that no one else has.I can't prove that from the bible but I know it in my heart. Father God I invite you into this situation right now in Jesus name.Jesus isen't your savior only at calvary but over and over thruout your life if you call upon His name the name above all names.It is never to late to take back what has been stolen from you Lets agree together we ask God to give us back what has been taken away from us in Jesus name.I want you to remember that God is the one in control not the apco or g&amp;m. I ask God to make this church TLW responsable before God in Jesus name.I ask God to show up big and show off for His people in Jesus name.Amen TIAC's Mom

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dear Dew Drop,In reference to Jan. 10th 2008. When and if your Son gets married you have to go to the wedding. That is what is good for your son. Don't ever doubt that. I know exactly how these people usurp your authority as a parent. They tried to do the same thing with me.However I never had the added vunerability of a husband who passed away at the same time that they were full stream ahead in thier persuit. For these people to take advantage of this family in this vunerable time gives me a diferent opinion about them than what you have. I really don't and diden't back then in my life think that these people were really my brothers and sisters before God because brothers and sisters don't act like that unless they are very disfunctional.You see I believe that God has revealed to me that when your the parent because of your love for that child God gives you special insite to the children that no one else has.I can't prove that from the bible but I know it in my heart. Father God I invite you into this situation right now in Jesus name.Jesus isen't your savior only at calvary but over and over thruout your life if you call upon His name the name above all names.It is never to late to take back what has been stolen from you Lets agree together we ask God to give us back what has been taken away from us in Jesus name.I want you to remember that God is the one in control not the apco or g&amp;m. I ask God to make this church TLW responsable before God in Jesus name.I ask God to show up big and show off for His people in Jesus name.Amen TIAC's Mom

[truth_is_a_choice]

Dear Now What, I disagree with the reason that you think the tapes were restricted I know that is the reason JRS claimed. And I respect both of your opinions. However sometimes people do things and there are deeper reasons why they do them once we get beyond the superficial personality of a person. Sometimes these deeper reasons are not even concious to the individuals themselves.But there are hints of these deeper reasons within the individuals outward actions.So sence there is nothing new under the sun, I believe there is a much more common reason as to why these messages were hidden. Because cults all hide the same things, usually abuse of thier members are one of the things that they hide.You could almost profile it like a cerial killer's next move can be profiled.It has to do with patterns of behavior.Cults which hide the abuse of it's members usually eventually escalate into something really ugly like Jim Jones in GUAYANA. I DO BELIEVE THERE ARE CULTS THAT DON'T GET INTO ABUSE. So don't take me wrong on this. We are talking about patterns of human behavior. I do think JRS was right before God at one time in the begining just like Jim Jones. I don't know for sure what happend to JRS but I can see some patterns that are scarey. So what you say about him early on I believe but he became more reclusive as time went on. Was JRS behind the push for prayer of the death of the nephilim spirit? And was it targeted towards his wife? Perhaps the answer to that is on one of those tapes.What would of happened if Martha did not divorce JRS? What personal revelations from God would of come to pass then would they have stuck to prayer against the nephilim spirit. Have you ever heard about the Salem witch hunts of the past. As nothing is new under the sun these very righteous men would have a revelation that thier wives were witches and burn them at the steak.Then as the pattern goes they usually married a younger women. These atrosities really happened. All because of some revelation some man had. I don't mean to take away from God's anointing that was evedent through JRS ministry but we all need to be real in this day and age as we should of been in the past in the days of the Salem witch hunts. Unfortunately wemon and or children are usually the targets of these revelations. So do me a favor and don't keep your revelations a secret. God Bless TIAC'S Mom.

[truth_is_a_choice]

jlintott, winterland, missing link;
Your honesty and your hearts are absolutely beautiful. Well i'll be off for awhile (off fact net). Take care.

Truth is a Choice

[truth_is_a_choice]

Now what; A lot of people loved the feeling of exclusiveness, the very different revelations of John's (different from mainstream Christianity) the feeling of doing and being something special and different....(I know I did) it can be seen as a seeking for personal value. Yet we are so very valuable to God. Paul -you are valuable to Jesus. Love is honest. It may cover transgressions and forgive them. But it does not cover them to other people's hurt and shame. (psalm 69:6&amp;7) The spiritual man discerns and judges all things.
Truth is a Choice

[dew_drop]

Dear TIAC's Mother,
The reason I have come to communicate my heart on the fact net is because I believe that God is greater than all the difficulties, all short comings, any losses, any disappointments any divisions or separations that exist or that I may have experienced or may experience.

I can only be thankful to the Lord for all things and anything that has brought me closer to Him.

My son has his own relationship with the Lord &amp; he is doing just as his dad &amp; I were doing - and we were whole heartedly involved and loved being a part of helping and serving where ever we could be of help and we had some lessons to learn - just as we all do. My son puts his trust in men just as his dad and I did - Because he loves the Lord - the Lord will in His own good time show him - if he has any other mind than the mind of the Lord, God will make it known to him.

I am confident in this- because this is what the Word says.

I just do not like having to be separated from my son in every day life as family - like family should be. We are not separated as family when we speak together - his face and heart shines toward me - but he is not connected to me in life in the way he should be but he does not know this. He doesn't realize he has lost anything or is loosing any thing.

I want my children to live their own lives, to walk with the Lord and to be honest , caring human beings who love God and His righteousness. And I want them to be connected to me - in the Lord and in life. I dedicated each one of them to the Lord - to raise them for the Lord - from the time they were born.

My husband I , We were like children and we put our trust in our friends - in our brethren, so we were simply just naive. I had to go thru what I had to go thru in order to come to the place where I Looked deeper into the Scriptures to seek the Lord as to why the things that took place - could have taken place among those who we loved and those who also loved us. I still believe in the love we have for each other - no matter what the outward appearances of things may appear to be. And I have learned from what I went thru that my husband &amp; I were vulnerable - because we entrusted our selves to men.