I spent the last few years with Royal Cronquist before he died

[Friend (66.238.104.133)]

I spent lots of time with Royal Cronquist the last few years before he died.

[MichaelStuhler (198.81.26.106)]

Interesting. So what did you learn and what about the situation? How did he feel about the Walk? Was he of sound mind or was he having problems as was suggested by many in the Walk?

[MicheleB/W (198.81.26.106)]

I came into the Walk in San Diego under RD Cronquist in the early 70s and am also very interested in hearing about his last years.

[Greg A. Violi (64.179.117.94)]

I am looking for material by Royal Cronquist? Can you give me an address?

[eddymack (eddymack)]

I'm a little late to this discussion but if anyone is still talking...

Can the person who spent time with R.D. Cronquist in his last years talk some more about that? What was he doing? How were his kids, Vaughn, Michael, and Denise? And Darlene?

Good, bad, or otherwise, he was a large influence on many of us.

EM

[eddymack (eddymack)]

Oh and Michele B/W...if you see this...would you EMail me at EMacknight@aol.com?

If you are who I think you are, I'd like to catch up.

EM

[owl (owl)]

It sounds like there might be a few former "Barn" folk lurking in the wings on this thread.... some seem very familiar, like "eddymack."

My memories of those wild and wooly days are very dear! Especially listening eddymack play piano after service. What a gift you had/have!

As for others, the names are foggy, but the faces are so clear to remember! And weren't those days after services of "repentance" all the sweeter going to the Brat Skellar and walking on the beaches.

As for RD himself, fights over church property rights is always hard, but I remember him telling me in Shiloh one day that he was pretty much done trying to do the Walk thing and being an apostle to the School of Prophets and he was ready to do something else. That had to be around 1979 or so. Man, so many were hurt by so much in those days.... I wish we could re-live them with what we know now. Like we could have just gone to that darn Gordon Lightfoot concert and not gone to church at all that night! Hmmmmm.

[rejoicealways (rejoicealways)]

Whatever happened to Bill Maybe? Is he still alive?

TJ

[the_aged_one]

I was not part of ‘The Walk’, but my path crossed Royal’s in 1990 to 1993. He was a blessing to me. I moved on when I perceived the controlling thing, but upon his death or close to it, I showed honor to whom Honor is due. I went and stayed near his bed side. We shall see him there on the other side and his work is done, may we all learn from the mistakes of our Mosses’ and become all that God wants us to be. I grew up and had to live in trash cans as a kid, only some times, so God brought me from the shadows, the call of God was there even in my prison days, and that which God spoke to me in private, Royal prophesized from the roof top. I hope those that are near his wife and children will bless them. I know that God showed me what I could become by showing me Royals end, I took another path, his heart was to serve, but, like many vessels he had a tough time letting God rule. The mixture of spirit and flesh is everywhere, just more profound sometimes.

I am doing fine in my walk AND I hope that you all use those great talents that you have received from God TO SERVE OUR LORDS CREATION. And know that in many of the wineskins of our day, that your giftings will be used in the byways and the highways. For the leaders know not how to serve. But don’t become bitter.

I can say I saw more of how the church should operate in a number of small fellowships and in a short time (2 to 3 years) than I have in over 30 years as a Christian, but the good news is, he is the head of the church, so its not my problem. I just must do my part even as each of you must serve that person that is in your path. Have not I lead you this far, and will I not finish this work? Please step back into that 1st love and keep it simple.

May my presence be strong on and in your lives, may you walk with me in the cool of the day. My gifts are to be given away, and used, don’t wait for the church to become perfect, just obey and know that I enjoy to see my children walking in the light and enjoying there work upon the earth.

From a boy whom our Lord found in a trash can and raised to be set among the princes, literally!

Michael

I have copys of all of his material on my shelf, have not looked at it, appears as old manna?

[themissinglink]

"Please step back into that 1st love and keep it simple.

May my presence be strong on and in your lives, may you walk with me in the cool of the day. My gifts are to be given away, and used, don’t wait for the church to become perfect, just obey and know that I enjoy to see my children walking in the light and enjoying there work upon the earth"
saith Michael Aging well....

nice.

[jlintott]

I remember R.D. back in the days when we would meet in a corrugated metal horse barn located on the san diego church property. There were carpets spread on the bare earth in there. The barn was cold in winter, and hot in summer.
The Holy Spirit was so intense then. R.D. was quite the showman-always challenging; always in control.

In retrospect, I personally saw that church go downhill. It became a forum for R.D.'s strong personality. The Spirit seemed to change after the various building projects became the big thing.

[jlintott]

I clearly recall the Barn. A large corrugated sheetmetal horse barn. Classic! Carpets spread out on the bare earth for a floor. Quite hot during those summer sunday meetings. Occ. sombody from the neighborhood would smack the side of it with a rock. But, hey, the worship was pretty loud, and somtimes went on&on&on at night too. The Holy Spirit would be there so strongly in those humble beginnings. I was in High School then. Most of us were under 30 yrs.
R.D. was the dude in control of it all. I think we unfortunately were encouraged and provoked into performing & conforming to his strong personality.

[jlintott]

I was drawn into this group because of my deep need for a real walk with God.

It seems to me that placing the "double bind" on people is not the best expression of Godly Love.

I was an emotionally abandoned shame-bound seeker. In need of deliverance.

The walk seemed to function by shame too. Whatever you were supposed to be was always in direct conflict with who or what you were.

For me, the striving was too much. After many years of trying to submit to supposed "authority", It became so obvious that the worker bees were only there too feel their chains rattled by those who had this "Divine Revelation of the Lord".

I tried, but no angel of the lord appeared to me,ever.

The worship was fine-sort of took you out of this realm -for an hour or two. When going out the door of the building, it was back to trying to be in the world, but not of it.

Always putting up your walls, and projecting your spirit is like a full time job with no paycheck.

We are not bound, we are freed by the blood of the lamb.

I left that dungeon of anxiety.

Travel light. God won't leave you.

[jlintott]

Does anyone from that era wish to dialog? After such a long time, My perception of the walk is like muddy water. I have been thru later periods of major personal catastrophies too. 18 years of child support, living on the road, failed relationships, cut-off from my children. Now, things are OK, but what was I thinking? still standing, still watching.

[winterland]

jlintott: I'd be happy to dialog. My email address is strhouse@telusplanet.net

Blessings, Winterland

[winterland]

jlintott: p.s. I appreciate your posts. Winterland

[nony_man]

Gosh, Jim, "dungeon of anxiety"! That is so accurate. Drop me a line sometime. I used to live and surf with you.

slider.tom@hotmail.com

[changedagain]

Hey Jim,
I was involved in TLWF for many, many years--like many of those that have posted here. Feel free to correspond with me as well. My new email address, inspired by your writing, is: dungeonofanxiety2@yahoo.com
I'm good friends with nony_man, BTW--even though he has never asked me to surf with him ;)

[nony_man]

I never asked you to go surfing because I knew it would interfer with your training for the Tour de France.

But, seriously Jim, check this web page out. Especially chapters 1 and 2. Does any of it ring true? For those of us that were under RD and the LW leadership, I think it is fairly acccurate.

www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/tbook.html (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/tbook.html)

[jlintott]

Freedom is a good thing. It must be valued, and lived with. Many long-time prisoners prefer the familiarity of their cell, It just creeps into their bones. Being on the outside is not an easy adjustment. The will has to go thru a renewal. Calculated risk taking; learning to observe, Trusting your own abilities, having friends, etc.


It is easier just to go back to the pen.

[jlintott]

Freedom is a good thing. It must be valued, and lived with. Many long-time prisoners prefer the familiarity of their cell, It just creeps into their bones. Being on the outside is not an easy adjustment. The will has to go thru a renewal. Calculated risk taking; learning to observe, Trusting your own abilities, having friends, etc.


It is easier just to go back to the pen, the magdalen laundries

[jlintott]

Yes, well I do remember the spirit of God there in the worship.

>>>I BEEN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THINGS SO AS TO LET THEM GO.<<< AVOIDANCE SEEMS TO JUST AMPLIFY. I ONCE HAD A REVELATION OF LIVING IN A WONDERFUL HOUSE WITH MANY WINDOWS. THE PROBLEM THERE WAS THE HOUSE WAS FULL OF A BIG BLACK ROCK. SO BIG WAS THIS THING, THAT THERE WAS ONLY ROOM TO BARELY PASS BY IT ON THE WINDOW WALLS. i DON'T WANT TO APPEAR TO BE LIVING WELL WHEN NOT.

That same spirit often manifests itself in an org. which chooses to worship the true and living God of the Bible .

It is no claim to fame; no proof or justification of correctness. We are just vessels made of earth...

The various leaders, groups, denominations, etc; have all have eventually appeared to be way, way short of being on par with God.

Might as well realize it: the "emperor who wore no clothes" is about as good as it gets in our attemps to acheive authority , or godliness.

Check Gideon

. His motives didn't have much to do with an org. The dude was on the run from oppression, victimized just like his neighbors; starving, laying low. He knew the need. But it was God's empowerment that did the job.

It's never the form of the vessel that really matters much. We are always not far from the soil.

What do you think?

[updraft]

Does anyone know of a group that worships like the Walk without all the other stuff that just gums up the works?

[dont_walk__run_far_from_tlwf]

Hello. I was in That Crap from 1963 until about 1990. Grace Chapel, Sacramento, Anaheim, back to Grace Chapel. My children went to COL for several years. My ex-husband lives in North Hills and is still part of the mess. I thought I was in a brand new frame until my sister, who was involved for 8 years or so, emailed me about this site. It's amazing how the language, thoughts and feeling flooded back in with repulsion. Anyone wanna talk?

[winterland]

Updraft asks, "Does anyone know of a group that worships like the Walk without all the other stuff that gums up the works?"

I think a lot of the worship in the Walk is generated by their belief of always pursuing higher levels and they are doing this as a corporate experience. Their beliefs very much influence their worship style.

For many years after I left the Walk I tried to find this same worship atmosphere in different places. Now my worship of the Lord is from a personal place of who He is to me and what He has done for me. In my own experience, until I moved away from this corporate thinking and the intensity that was driven by the need to achieve a "new level", I wasn't able to appreciate the worship in other churches. Now my worship has more personal depth and it is expressed differently from the Walk.

Run Far: You are right, the thoughts and feelings do flood back when you read this site. That passed for me eventually and now I can look at my time in tlw more objectively without all of the negative emotions.

[dont_walk__run_far_from_tlwf]

Winterland: I thought I had been very objective before jumping onto this site. My family started going to South Gate back in 1963 with the Pfeifers and the Maxwell's. I was 7 y/o. My parents left when Ruth Klein was declared a Nephilim. I was married to an asst pastor at the time and felt my parents didn't have a "vision", a "revelation", they just didn't have what it takes to "walk with God". Fortunately for me I was a rebel. Even though my husband would have loved for me to cut them off, I did not. My parents would always be there for me, this church would not. Anyway, I stuck around until I divorced my husband and took my 3 children out of that hostile environment (the cult) in 1990. I was probably 34 when I started leaving the church. I was there for about 30 years. I literally grew up in that and tolerated much of it for more than half my life. I'm now 51 and quite satisfied with my life. My 3 children are quite successful and stable. My ex-husband remarried and they, along with her 3 children, are very much involved at TLW. We used to live on Haskell, a few houses down from the church.
I love life. I learned a lot from that place. I love my freedom.

[jlintott]

The catholic church, the various pentocostal churches, many fundamentalist churches (you name it) all seem to worship God. I understand some of the jewish sects do that too.

Amazingly, with all the B.S. that has gone down, both recent,&amp; historical, God hasn't really abandoned any of us.

I have taken field trips to various groups, and have found God in the worship.

Blows me away!

it still rings true that "he inhabits the praises of his people'

Ya just gotta be careful. You don't want to end up being a nun. How about a nice beehive hairdo?

The style of worship seems irrelevant.

[changedagain]

"I was 7 y/o. My parents left when Ruth Klein was declared a Nephilim."

The main teachings of the 70's is a little murky to be...but if I recall the focus was on the bringing forth of the 'sons of God,' in great part through 'violent' intercession. The intercession was likened unto the travail of a woman in childbirth--not, of course, meant to be a physically violent-although some of the intercession could get quite rowdy at the time. John was identified by the churches as the 'first fruits' in the prayer...the one designated by God to break through the barrier of death first...while others linked to him would soon follow. I do remember John referring to himself as the first fruits, so it was clear (at least to me) he accepted this role. There was also teaching at the time about the counterpart to the sons of God--the offspring of Satan--whose purpose, apparently, was to thwart God's sons. They were referred to as nephilim. Do I have that right? Anyway, I know it was generally understood within the churches that John's ex-wife, Martha, was a nephilim--and it's clear from your post--that some others in the church were identified as well. I also remember public figures such as Henry Kissinger, JFK, Wilt Chamberlain etc. being marked as nephilim. The question I have is did this designation (of who happened to be a nephilim) come from John personally? I can't recall ever hearing him name names in any of his messages. Or, perhaps, did the identity of these people originate from those close to him...from what they heard--or claimed to have heard--behind closed doors? Does anyone know?
BTW, I have never heard of Ruth Klein until reading your post. What was that all about?

[winterland]

Changedagain:

This is THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, not only for TLWF ministries, but also for all of us, who even through ignorance, joined in prayer against labeled targets.

This needs to be made right, not only with the Lord, but also with those victims involved.

We all need to be held accountable for what went on, and the destructive results that affected so many peoples lives.

Thanks changedagain for bringing this up.

PS Your understanding of the teaching of TLW during that time is the same as my understanding.

[updraft]

In 1979 my fiancee and I travelled to Dublin, CA for a "marriage checkout" by Bro. Klein. He was a very perceptive and gracious man of God. We were blessed.

[psyche_abused]

Howard Klein was a very good man. He married my ex-husband and I in 1978. He stood by his wife when she was targeted as a Nephilim in a letter read to the church in 1980. My parents and others left at the same time. Ruth was only one of several named. He left the church with her and died a few years after JRS of an aneurysm.

[updraft]

It was whispered about that my wife was also a Nephilim. Just because she wasn't into screaming until the bloodvessels in her eyes ruptured and her voice got so hoarse she couldn't speak with all the violent intercession that never got higher than the roof anyway. It baffles me how so much good could be so overshadowed by so much stupidity. Why was JRS so sterile, in the final analysis, that he couldn't reproduce himself, to say nothing of the other 999 prophets that were to outminister him?

[psyche_abused]

It is possible that we were all carriers.

Besides, t'would be a greater sin, thinks me, to be a Pharisee.

[themissinglink]

Well done, Psyche....... and mercy to the merciful (it also ain't over till its over!)
weeping bitterly, Peter ultimately broke through to unlimited boldness and anointing..... but not until conviction leveled to the bone. As you note all possibly carriers correctly....all yet may find the indomitable good planting yet to manifest through brokeness into unbridled Victory. Lots of dung though, certainly we have been amply dunged. Aloha, Link

[jlintott]

I just heard that Evel Keneivel died................ At the young age of 69.
I saw that V-twin riding Nimrod jump a huge row of cars at an Oregon state fair. He landed on his front wheel. A bad deal, but he didn't fall, &amp; kept going.

I hope Evel Bell Neivel is still going too...

[truth_is_a_choice]

I watched Evel Keneivel share with everyone that he had recently been saved, on some church program about a year or more ago.

[truth_is_a_choice]

I watched Evel Keneivel share with everyone that he had recently been saved, on some church program about a year or more ago.

[jlintott]

The real "Keneivel" was a true showman, so I can imagine him getting on a podium and explaining his salvation to a TV audience.

PT Barnum? Well,if God can speak thru Balam's A**,why not use Evel?


Steve mainly rode his Yamaha 360 for fun, not fame.
Just a dirt rider,and a hunter before the Lord. now there.

[truth_is_a_choice]

ok....jlintott; when were you in the living word church fellowship?

[jlintott]

TiaC-

I there on my own IN 1969. I came there at age 16 because of stories of the meat of the word and the spirit of God. I was pedal-to-the-metal 100% for most of the next 7-8 years. After that, disillusionment set in. I wouldn't allow myself to get duped anymore-but still cared for some of the people there. The worship was fantastic.

Fortunately for me, I never was part of the inner circle (The Shepherds)
I sill carry wounds which resulted from trying to submit to impossibly difficult expectations of insensitive, yet ambitious 20 year olds.
Yeah, we had a pretty busy schedule,and not much time for sleep, much less time for socializing.
The human mind can only take a certain amount of this sort of abuse. After that, it's cukoo time!

In retrospect, I would have taken my head out of the sand alot sooner.

I still have a hard time understanding why God seems so slow about intervening. It's after the damage is done, the players are history,and the situation is almost forgotten ; that things seem to finally be resolved.
It is akin to raising an old sunk boat-nobody wants to go fishing in it anymore. It's trashed, adulterated.

I hope my ventilation will help us all heal old battle scars

[jlintott]

A full class load at a university.
Working 20+ hors per week at a real job.
Attending church 5+ long services per week.
Living in a "brother's house", with chores, etc.
Praying with them every morning. 5am-an hour or so.
Outlining "this weeks", or taped sermons 2+every day.
Enduring "Shepherding, and Guidance"; feeling like God was chastising me as my "Dealings of the Lord"
Other stuff too. (27 hours a day, 8 days a week)

It was too much for one person. The "Authority People" obviously didn't seem to notice much. I think they didn't know-even with all those spiritual gifts of discernment and prophecy

So.. I bolted one day, seemingly leaving God and everything I felt at the time was Godly. I was running on empty, and felt very spaced-out from lack of sleep.

Even one of my Profs at school took me aside and prayed for me. (a weslyan church guy). Said the lights seemed on, but nobody home. I felt it was only a demonic assault at the time. So, tried to "wall him and his demons out". Dang, it was such a confusing time.

A very difficult period of my life. I felt very low, and depressed. Couldn't even change the oil on my V.W. without feeling rushed because of my poor choices of priorities.

When I finally did leave, one of the elders who owned the house we were renting explained to me that the devil won a round, and that I had lost ground in my exit. A confirmation on the guilt and shame I was under! aaAARG!!!

[jlintott]

I got saved at a pentecostal church alter call 5-6 times. and before that, I got saved at Campus life meeting(s), And at a Baptist church. I think they were getting paid by new converts, so everytime the golden moment arrived, there I was,receiving Jesus as my personal lord and saviour. just to make sure all the bases were covered, I did it quite a few times. It didn't seem real, I didn't seem so transformed into a new creature, or anything. So, they told me to beleive by faith. yeah, like don't talk about it anymore, it will cause your brothers to stumble. Like Denial. I think this got me headed down that long, cultic road, looking for the real thing to fill my hunger for God. The cult sealed me off from the real world for a few years, Kept me looking right-on, and just supported my denial.

The truth does set you free.

I suppose religion is just not my cup of tea.

I feel that God is like that what's a bear do in the forest joke. God does whatever seems like a good idea at the time. And he has lots and lots of time to get er did. An eternal amount of time.

You know, here we are with our 70/odd years, hustling along, trying to keep-up and it just doesn't even get out of first gear when it compares to the things of God.

[spaceman]

jlintott:

Thanks for your post. I don't know what to say.................... all I can think of is to relay my perspective of Jesus.

I cling to the Lord of love, justice and righteousness (Jer 9:23,24). I desire to know His love for me (Eph 3:19). I sense He has good things for me (Is 30:18), and He cares for me (1Pet 5:7). His thoughts of me are numerous (Ps 40:5), and He holds my hand so I don't crash headfirst over the cliff when I fall (Ps 37:24). He has a picture of me tatooed on the palm of each of His hands (Is 49:15,16 amplified). In short, I believe in the everlasting love, goodness and mercy of the Lord.

I believe that for you and for all people also.

[truth_is_a_choice]

jlintott;
Thanks for talkin' with me, I was very excited to find these threads but haven't found very many people actively on them. 16 is a pretty young age. Your parents weren't involved, just you? I was involved (my memory isn't perfect) between the ages of 6 - 8 &amp; my teenage years (about; the early 1980s to the early 1990's)-I left as a teenager. Before I left- I used to have these dreams. Only later did I realize thier significance. One of the dreams; I was at home (my parent's apartment) -which is on the third floor. Outside of our window there was this neatly dressed man with a well groomed mustache standing in a concession stand as though he were selling something...Although my memory is fuzzy I do distinctly remember when I woke up I absolutely knew that was the devil even though he didn't look like a devil (no pitchfork). He was floating outside of (only) our window &amp; selling...
anyway, I was so confused at the time -the whole thing made no sense to me but I remembered the dream for over 10 years. Over a decade later, I realized that it was a very personal message to me from God about what was going on in my life at the time.
I know the Bible says something about us only hearing in part when we are here, in this life. That depresses me sometimes. I missed the message, but God brought it back to me when I was capable of knowing it. Back then I was so hurt &amp; confused -all I could do was run away from that church. In my mind I was leaving God behind too. They gave me a bizarre concept of who God is &amp; quite frankly I needed some years before I could really know anything that is true about God (about His character &amp; who he really is). Which brings me to a second dream I remember, when I was about to leave; I was standing on the shore of this great body of water looking out at it. This huge wave came up and flipped this dead body over to a standing position right in front of me. I was looking at myself, my right eye was hanging by strings of veins or muscle (don't know -it was gross) &amp; my right arm was severed (just as gross looking -with strings of muscle hanging down). Any way I did not know what that dream meant for many years either. It wasn't about leaving the church, God had been telling me to do that for a long time I just wasn't getting it. It was about leaving God, which I had purposed in my heart to do. And I did. For many years. I proceeded through the darkness down trails, paths, alleys that no one should venture down.
Any way, by referencing the 'bear joke -in the woods", did you mean (because its the only one i can think of); "If a bear sh**s in the woods but no one is around, did the bear really s**t?" _Like if God speaks but no one is around, did God really speak? Pretty interesting. Is that the reference??
The irony in my life was that when I was about 5 years old I knew the Lord, I danced around &amp; sang to him all the time &amp; I talked to him &amp; I listened because I could hear him then (kids can do that without being committed). But then My step father &amp; mother married &amp; we went into this cult/church &amp; Jesus dissapeared in my childhood. When I was finally saved as an adult -there were times that I was hurt &amp; angry with Him about it. Him seeming to stand by while I was abused outside of the church by a babysitter &amp; later my mind being bent against (specifically) Jesus by this cult's great hidden desire to remove the deity of Jesus. Which for me was interpreted more into a concept of -not me hating Jesus - but being confused &amp; my great hope of there actually being a living God being completely broken, furthermore that if by some slim chance there were - he must hate me.

[truth_is_a_choice]

jlintott; I don't think Truth is a choice all the time. But when it becomes one (&amp; I think God gives everyone that freedom at some point) -we become accountable for our actions. It sounds like you were very responsible -you did the right thing &amp; got out. I am amazed by your seeking God at the age of 16, you sound like a pretty cool person. Thats the heart that I think God desires (is jealous for), the heart that desires to know Him. After all these years I came to realize that changing God's word &amp; mis-ministering is very very serious business to God. He has more than what we can imagine as Justice in His hand -eternally. Because He Loves Us.
Just what I think -but sometimes we probably don't see just how jealous God is for His people or how much He loves His people because He has eternity to act &amp; while we are in this life all we can see is a very short amount of years to hurry through. -But God still takes care of business.

[truth_is_a_choice]

When I was between the ages of 10 &amp; 12, I was sitting in (cult) church looking at the pastor (shepherd/brother -whatever he is called) &amp; his wife who was pregnant at the time (during a service). On the wall behind them, thier shadows became pitch black like the silhouettes children make of themselves in elementary school. Then they moved up the wall (all the way up) &amp; through the ceiling. The unborn baby was separated from her mother in the shadows I saw &amp; she was an extremely dark black shadow too. I was very excited because i thought I saw an ora -though I never tried. I told my mom later. She didn't understand it -but she believed me, I didn't understand it (just thought God was saying something &amp; that was neat enough for me, didn't need to understand). Although you may think I'm crazy because I have told you this outlandish story, whether you believe it or not I am perfectly sane &amp; the story is true. I was the only one who saw it of course. Years later i came to realize that it was a message to my mother &amp; myself to GET OUT of that church. But we missed it. Years later when I was in my 20 -s, I had gone far far down a very opposite path. I was very lost. In my desperation to aquire a place to live, I became a tip-bar entertainer. I was pretty clean cut for that scene but was successful anyway. One night I was working, mind you every night on my private drive home I would weep bitterly desiring to know if God was a lie or was real...because i could not accept a fairy tale. Anyway, this man came in, he wasn't the usual sort. He was very different. He started telling me about auras &amp; how I could see them if I tried (I've never tried, always seemed like witchcraft to me -I tend to think God shows you something otherwise don't try to see it because you're unprotected without God). Any way he showed me this girl on stage &amp; told me there was a spot over her heart, it was black. That was her aura. He said black represented arrogance &amp; he wouldn't go anywhere near her because of it. Then he left -as though that were the only reason he was there in the first place. It was very strange, but later i remembered the pastor &amp; his familie's shadows. All those messages, &amp; I did not get it -still. Pretty wierd stuff huh?
If you're still reading, when i was still in that church my best friend used to have a reoccuring nightmare when she was in her pre-teens. She was standing &amp; all these demons were surrounding her laying hands on her, just like the brothers did when they were laying hands on people &amp; blessing them. But the demons were pushing her down over &amp; over again. That was one of the first dreams i understood (later), but she went on to live in the headquarters of that church in iowa. (I think she is still there &amp; a part of that cult).
(All those blazing signs, since by then I was no longer able to read the Bible without feeling sick or weeping because all I could see was the cult's interpretation of God, or no God...yet He was so kind to give me blazing neon signs. But I still didn't understand.)

[truth_is_a_choice]

Any way, Weslyan thats interesting. My husband has a friend who is a Weslyan. I don't know anything about them. My husband thought they were a cult -but I can't trust his judgement about spiritual things (with all due respect, I love the man he is brilliant) -but he never reads the Bible, he is catholic when he is not an atheist. He spent some time being angry with me because I refuse to allow my children to be catholic. I don't agree with everything they do. But I love the catholic people in my family. But I will stand before God one day &amp; give account for what i knew &amp; what I taught my kids about Jesus. When I was around 5 years old I stepped into a pentacostal church with my mother once. They were different then, long hair, long dresses...I was perfectly happy in the Lords house, until all of a sudden i could just feel this unexplainable evil. Yeah, churches are disillusioning.
I was finally 'saved' a few years ago. I went to a pentacostal church of God &amp; got saved. They would not fix thier baptismal pool &amp; baptise me, amongst many other people who wanted it. Eventually i just could not drive an hour one way to church with a toddler who tantrummed all the way anymore (a short while after i was saved i found out my son has autism). I stopped going to churches for awhile. i stepped into a catholic church for a moment because i felt like the Lord was leading me to (with out my son, just with my husband.) (It had to do with my husband, not me...i don't feel required to attend a catholic church).

[truth_is_a_choice]

Then i ended up at a nondenominational church of christ &amp; was baptised. I ddon't attend church anymore because my son has a severe form of autism &amp; we distract all of the other paritioners because he can not behave, &amp; since he can not speak we do not leave him with other people (classes)...besides they usually don't have what special children need in churches. The other reason is, we always get horrible looks &amp; what not (although there are some wonderful, loving people too) -but i don't want my son to think of God &amp; equate Him with the horrible looks &amp; comments we get from people who do not understand my son has autism &amp; what it is, &amp; just don't seem to be capable of treating him as Jesus would. That is everywhere, at every church. But I still have a personal relationship with Jesus &amp; try to teach my kids about him. Jesus has totally transformed me from the very dark places i have gone &amp; who I had become, perhaps its easy for me to see because i went down so far. But the change is drastic, &amp; now I can see the difference between forgettable dreams &amp; the ones He spoke through...&amp; I know what they mean. But I didn't until -after i was saved awhile &amp; sought Jesus daily. Now I know He has spoken to me many times through many ways, now a days it is primarily through the Bible. He also healed my heart and gave me peace. But the change might not be obvious to others, I'm not (&amp; probably never will be) some great preacher nor have I aquired some great job. I'm just a stay at home wife &amp; mom, I have 2 kids now &amp; I homeschool my eldest son. But without that cult experience I would be very gullible, I would not have reached the point where I could discern truth from lies nor man from God. I'm not saying God put me through it, the devil did -but God used it for my good. Just like satan tried to confuse God's word to Jesus in the desert when He was fasting (Jesus -who was &amp; is the word) -satan used that cult to sell malarky, confusion to try to destroy many who are God's chosen. I feel pretty special in God's eyes that satan would try so hard to destroy me, but Jesus never forgot me -&amp; I am no more special than you. Jesus Loves You.

[jlintott]

TIAC:
Thank you for lowdown on your life. I think you have been through a lot. You seem to have held-up under the strain reasonably well. I personally admire the fact that you were in the org since a small child, yet found the strength to leave, and get a life on the outside. BRAVO!!!
I like the idea of our name written on God's hand.
Lotta names on that hand, but eternity probably applies here. God is not limited.
It is quite a challenge to persist long enough to really put a cult behind you.

I think it is possible to gradually come out of the grasp of it's mindset. But, you never forget it. I have made good progress, and have healed much. I think bitterness is a starting point, but you have to be willing to leave that depressing zone ASAP, or it may really kill ya. I may seem like a lunatic, what with my unscriptural rambles on this website--But to get more closure on some of the wounds I carry seem worth it.
Outside, people don't have a clue about our secret abusive cultic exposure. I know that I am saved- by faith. But, nevertheless, it is good for me to examine even that doctrine to determine it's truth. I am not sure mouthing the sinner's prayer is really going to change anyone, really. I wish it were so!

I still like the allegorical progress of "Much Afraid" in the book "Hind's Feet On High Places"

Even when I have got myself into impossible situations, God has always been there. It is like he is the faithful one in our relationship. I am often just the brat. He doesn't reject us for being successful, or unsuccessful. His love springs eternal. Fresh every morning. Very forgiving, and liberal with the grace. We don't live on a scale of 1-10 like we do with humankind relationships.

Where does a bear ****?
Where ever he wants.

I just hope and pray to break the cycle of getting involved in any more situations which require me to go into denial, become a brainless dweeb, and to bow down to worship somebody's image of god. I hope to continue to have my mind and will running on all 8 cylinders until the day the angles come and take me into his presence to stay.

[truth_is_a_choice]

jlintott
nice to hear from you. I like the positive notes. Yeah, bitterness could be a starting point...my mother is bitter, or maybe <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> if I could say that. (Wow! this sight would not let me say <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>! OK really really <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> off, or angry).She has been for many years, because she brought me into that cult with no ill intent. I'm not angry any more, but I become very angry when i hear people defending that way of thinking. It is just so bizarre to put chains on the gospel of freedom. But I believe there is a perfect hatred or anger that David often spoke of, a hatred of that which de-glorifies the truth.
But aren't we the overcomers? Is that what it means? That we've overcome the lies amongst so much more? Because of Jesus of course, not me me me. I still don't attend a church. I thought I might -recently. But alas, i guess i'll just live it. Isn't that more truthful anyway?
You don't seem like a lunatic to me, plain speak is my usual tongue.
Merry Christmas

[jlintott]

TIAC:

Getting angry is pretty much a common beginning of facing any kind of situation which has become poisonous.

"The Truth" is one of those main aspects of Jesus, (i.e - I am the Way, The Truth, and the Life). Anyway, it seems to me that "The Truth" has quite a lot to do with seeing things as they really are.
If a person is comfortable with his or her head in the sand, nothing changes, no healing takes place.
Sometimes we get the hurt put on us, so we can get those blockages resolved. It feels like it is unfair, and it usually is, too. We get angry, and that hopefully, causes us to motivate toward the truth.

I think whole, healthy people are those who continue to face truth. Also, we keep getting wounded in this life; we should also keep getting healed.

For a long time, I have thought that healing should be a normal, everyday thing.

Well, that would be kinda lovely!

-JL

[truth_is_a_choice]

JL}
Love what you said.

I won't be on here for about a month. But I will definately be back in one month. If you feel like chatting my email is bigbmogan@charter.net

Yes, it would be lovely.

L- TC

[jimmie_]

I remember visiting RD Cronquist's church in (Imperial Beach? Chula Vista?) several times when I was teenager in around 1969 or 1970.
I had been brought there by another young man named David who held "full-gospel" bible studies at his uncle's place in Point Loma.
One Sunday "Brother RD" introduced an older couple at the service as, "... fine, upstanding members of the John Birch Society..."
That was IT for this young hippie-boy!
I was blown right OUTTA THERE!
Does anyone remember David (I think his last name may have been Coe) from those bible studies and blessings of the Holy Spirit in Point Loma? He was around in his late teens or early twenties in 1969 / 1970.

[jimmie_]

O.K., I've read through these posts pretty thoroughly now.
I have a pretty strong suspicion that I may have been at worship with one or two of you, or maybe we had some friends in common back in the late sixties / early seventies in San Diego: jlintott; nony_man; changedagain; and possibly, owl (owl). I went to Kearny High School and graduated in 1971.
I originally got saved at a Campus Life meeting as a shame-filled 15 year old. I had a brief summer "love affair" with those folks, speaking at youth rallies as the former doper who had come to The Lord. That all came to a crashing halt when I choked at a huge rally one night at the Starlight Bowl in Balboa Park. I had "No Message" at rattled on at the microphone in meaningless babble. After that I was just another face in the crowd Random Sample concerts.
I got into the full-gospel form of worship and prayer at David (Coe's?) bible studies in Point Loma.
There I heard about Brother Stevens up in Sepulveda and went to RD's church in Chula Vista? Imperial Beach?.
I spent the summer between my junior and senior year in high-school living at a "Brother's House" in El Cajon. Actually, I spent most of that summer on the road with two "brothers" from the house, Daniel and Michael. We borrowed a parishioner's car and drove through Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and finally, back into California. We witnessed along the way, and back in California, we stopped at a church in SF and got our bibles anoited with "angelic-oil." We stopped in Montecito to "crash" a Campus Life retreat at a plush private college there - we knew some girls there. After that, living at the Brothers House was chores and prayer; chores and prayer.
I finally bailed out of the whole deal during my senior year. At best, it all seemed like a benign, mindless fairytale; at worst, it got to be like group hysteria, with creepy, middle-aged preachers pulling puppet strings.
I got out relatively unscathed.
It wasn't until years later, after drugs had wrecked my life, that I had real reason to need healing. I've been clean for many years now and have been blessed to have developed a strong spiritual practice based on honesty, openmindedness, and willingness.
I fall short in my efforts to remain mindful, serene, confident and brave almost daily, but I keep on picking myself up: trying to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

[jlintott]

Jimmie,

David Cokas was leading those meetings in Pt. Loma. David is now a pastor at the "Living Springs Church" in Casa de Oro.

David is a straight shooter. He is still hearing the still small voice of God.

I might have attended that fellowship, but it feels too much like LWF. I cringe when around that walk lingo, and protocol.

David is by most accounts a man of God; and a non judgemental,concerned human being. He married me and my wife a couple of years ago. That was pretty liberal minded of him. Also,David is a great councilor. I think he is a certified psychologist.

-JL

[jimmie_]

JL - David Cokas! That's the guy! Thank you!
I'm glad to hear that David is doing well.

I could tell stories about late night phone calls from David that would start a whole new thread. But I won't because I also believe he was a "straight shooter" and a good counselor - even in his very young days back then. Even after all these years I have a lot of respect for David and in many ways value the opportunity to have known him.
I haven't had anything to do with any of this stuff in over 35 years and it is very interesting to recall some of it.
I'm particularly fascinated - shocked, actually - to realize that it seems like I dodged a bullet in not becoming more involved with The Walk than I did. I had no clue! It was all fun and exciting for a teenage "Jesus Freak," but as soon as it got a little too weird for me, I bailed.
I'm really surprised that RD and Brother Stevens have become such notorious characters. I always thought they were totally over-the-edge, but I didn't realize that so many people may have been so damaged by their relationships with these guys.
Any way, thanks for responding and I'll check in here from time to time to see what's up.
Jimmie

[jlintott]

If I could speak to my former self, I would say:

"Forget the walk. Forget college. Forget about girls for awhile.

Go to the North shore. Savor the moment. Leave your crutches at home. Follow your dream.

Work when you must, surf when it's on.

You have nothing to prove. No hoops to jump through.

Just feel those steep drops and the warm sun on your skin".

PS-Aren't we always longing for a return to Eden?
The path I chose was anything but that.

Like Moses being chased off to Midian for 40 years because he took matters into his own hands.

Like Joseph being thrown into a pit, and left to die alone-

Like Noah building that silly ark out in the woods.

Like Abraham trudging up the hill with a knife and a son.

Like all the stuff some of us have been through.

God, it's not easy. Sometimes, I wish For deliverance from these truckloads of unresolved memories. I would like to take those dusty boxes out to the curb, to be picked-up come trash day.


-JL

[jimmie_]

JL - Sounds like you're working it out. Maybe slowly, but surely.
If I could give my younger self some advise it would be, "Stay in school and don't worry so much! It's all ok."
I let a lot of desperate searcing and subsequent bad habits take me out of the water (and into some very scary places) for many years.
Luckily, my (then) 12 year-old got me surfing again when he decided he wanted to learn how. We got some wetsuits, borrowed a board, and I pushed him into his first wave. All I ever told him was to pop-up straight to his feet, "... don't go to your knees!"
That's all it took, both of us have been on it ever since. Surfing together has strengthened the strong bond we already had and set us up for journeys all over the world during the last 10-11 years.
I don't get in the water as much as I'd like - work, grad school, etc. But it's still one of the best ways for me to be forced to deal with the moment and get out of the inside of my head. Up where we live now it's cold and the waves get big sometimes. The joke is that the kids who grew up surfing around here don't realize it's supposed to be FUN. In any case, regrets of one's past, or concerns for the future - whatever - tend to vanish in the face of paddling through 4-6 foot shorepound and dropping into 8-10 foot freight trains.
But I don't want to hijack this thread with all that stuff.
I've found that being of service to others is another good way to stop mulling over one's personal past and worrying about the one's personal future. It gives a fella the chance to feel good about himself and what he's doing. It helps nuture a sense of connectivity and create community. But it has to be done with a clean motivation: just to serve others. Not for "saving souls," or "carrying The Masters Message," - just service for the sake of helping others.
O.k. - this soap-box is getting shaky. I'll hush for now.

[jlintott]

Jimmie-

Thanks for the pep talk.

I am glad you are in the ocean again. what an excellent thing to pursue with your son!

After 20 years in Mendocino,i'm outta there!
Back in LomaLand now.

Water therapy works as well as anything else.
Contact with natural moving water seems to wash away a persons worries, and tensions. Surfing is a powerful anti-depressant. ..ah...ho/hum....

My two children,(the fruit of my loins) come down here and surf with this old waterboy at least twice a year.

I still throughly enjoy getting rolled and thumped on a shallow sandbar. Getting ragdolled is like a high-speed yoga session.
If you don't believe me, ask nonyman.

-JL

[jimmie_]

JL et al - Just trying to get this here thread back on the list
jimmie

[Vaughn]

hello this is Vaughn Cronquist
the son of Royal i just wanted to say that i am alive and doing well

if you have any questions about my Father or myself then go ahead and ask

thanks

[jlintott]

Hello Vaughn,

30 years later-I am glad to hear from you. You are doing well? That is a good thing.

I am interested in hearing anything you feel comfortable with putting out there.

Your Father was a big influence on many of us.

-JL

[jimmie_]

Vaughn - I want to offer my personal apology to you and the rest of your family for some of the comments I have made re: your father here and on some of the other threads related to "The Walk." It must be difficult for a son to see some of these things in print about his father; especially coming from the likes of me. That is, I only met your father a half dozen times and only spoke to him (face-to-face/one-on-one) on two or three occaisions.
I don't mean to backpedal on my impressions of RD I've expressed here, I simply want to apologize to you if they seemed harsh.
Thank you for that opportunity.

[jlintott]

Vaughn-


I saw RD on the podium, mostly.
A god-gifted man (I remember that).
And, a showman (I remember that too).

He was forced to leave Coniah Chapel.

So,what happened?

Nobody told the straight story. Just heard some rumors concerning some women.

-JL

[Vaughn]

Yes! Those were difficult times in my families lives. But through all we went through I still have a walk with God and forgiveness for those who have offended me.One thing my father taught me was that hanging on to bitterness serves no one and will destroy you and all around you like a cancer. My father died in March of 98 and had no hatred to any man he loved God! Humans will always fall short and make many mistakes, as far as my father's mistakes I'm sure there were many. All I know is that I follow after God and never after man because man will always let you down. Anyone who has a true relationship with the Lord will understand this.

[Ghostwolf]

I went to RD Cronquists' church for about 3-4 years altogether. I started attending the church when I had just turned 13 and ended my affiliation with them when I was about to turn 17.
At first I went to the church on Sunday morning but soon I wound up going several times a week...at the end of six months I was attending services every night of the week, twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday. It wrecked havoc with my schoolwork, let me tell ya.
I was first taken to the church by a young college woman, Holly Haines. She had two roommates. One's name was Patrice and the other one's name, I'm sorry to say, I can't remember. I do remember how she was treated though. She had a slight weight problem and she was ostracized terribly over the issue. RD believed that it was a woman's duty to look good for her husband ...because that's what all women were supposed to be. Married and good wives. Period. The poor girl went on a starvation diet that did severe damage to her emotionally, mentally and physically and wound up in the hospital due to malnutrition that compromised her immune system and in the end, she might have weighed less but she was sick, hospitalized and she had pneumonia. Of course, the minute she ate a regular meal, she started to gain it back so she wound up eating crumbs a day and had ongoing health issues due to it. (Thus saith the lord , ya know?)
Over time I made other friends in the church. Bill Wright, Rod Fink, Steven Bell, a poor fellow named Al Goff (or Golf) who was convinced that Satan was following him and only RD could save him from the demons that pursued him. (Last I saw of Al, I was 18 and he was still being pursued by satan and since RD didn't believe in psychiatry, Al never got the treatment he so desperately needed.
I have always wondered what happened to the people that attended RD's little side show. Perhaps I was the only one damaged by the things the man said and did to me. I don't know if I'll ever know for sure but I know that before I left, there was a lot of suffering going on. One young woman (Kathy, I believe her name was) had a complete breakdown because she and Steve (Bell) were in love and were going to get married but RD intervened and said it wasn't the will of god for them to get married. They were to end their relationship immediately and that, as they say, was that. But it wasn't .. Kathy became sick over the whole thing. There were rumors of attempted suicide due to the things RD was requesting of her but I was only 13 when this stuff was happening so I only heard bits and pieces. I do know that she suffered greatly though. I went over to her house right after the "decree" from RD and she was refusing food, couldn't sleep and she looked as if death were about to come claim her. :(
RD made a big impression on my life. He had me move out of my family home and into another families' home (Martin Martinez...his wife and two sons). Mr. Martinez was a wonderful man but his kids and his wife were another story altogether. It seems that Ms. Martinez was not looking for a daughter (which was what I was told) but was actually looking for a servant to clean the house, do the yard work, etc. for her). I was the answer to her prayers. I was treated as a slave (I mean that literally) and abused verbally and physically ongoing. I couldn't really tell anyone because RD was a firm believer in corporal punishment (spoil the rod, etc) and he would have just told me that I was being rebellious and "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!! (A verse from Deut that always was quoted to us kids if we asked a question or complained about something). At one point Mrs. Martinez wanted me to quit high school so that I could be a better 'daughter" (that is to say, do more work for her as Ms. Martinez felt that her darling sons shouldn't have to do any housework or chores...one was 22 and in college and the other was 16 and spent his time away from school surfing...she felt that I should take over all of the chores so that the "men" could do what men wanted to do - i.e. surf, dating, whatever) and that's when Mr. Martinez found out what had been going on behind his back and while he was at work. He was furious and yelled at his wife and sons for the better part of 10 minutes about "She's supposed to be our DAUGHTER . NOT YOUR SLAVE! And you boys!! You disgust me!! You're lazy and won't do anything and NOW you wanted to take advantage of some little girl?? NOT IN MY HOUSE!!" Mrs. Martinez ran to RD about the whole thing and I was blamed for everything that happened. It was all my fault. At 14 years of age, RD told me that I was evil and had demons all over me. I would be a harlot and die of numerous social diseases if I didn't change my ways!! (at the time I was a very immature 14 year old and very much um..untouched? I was beyond shocked at what he was saying because it was just so very far off the mark. Then I had to think, "But how could gods prophet be so ..very, very wrong??" I remember being frightened to even THINK bad things about RD. I had been told that to think ill of gods prophet was to question god. To question god was blasphemy...heresy... and worse. I became convinced that he must be right even though there was no evidence for what he was accusing me of and the things he suggested were just not true. I looked for the most evil parts of myself and the worst thing I found was truly a sin. A very serous one. I wanted to be loved so very badly that I would accept almost any kind of abuse from the people I hoped would love me. My dad had run out on my family when I was very young and I was encouraged to see RD as a "father" of sorts.
And I found that this 'new father" was as bad and worse than my real father. At least my real father didn't lie to me and try to deceive me into doing things just because he could. RD did do that. He had compromised my education, my life, my familial ties, because he could get away with it and no one would question a prophet of god.
My life in Chula Vista (RD's church) and Pt. Loma (the Martinez's home) was one of the most horrible events I ever suffered in my life and frankly, I have always felt that RD and his church did permanent damage to me. Well, it's not just me.. Numerous specialists have said the same thing. When it was originally suggested to me that The Walk was a cult and had done some very serious damage to my psyche, I was very resistant to hearing it. It wasn't until they pointed out my age at the time these things occurred that I realized, indeed, something very sick and wrong had been visited upon me by some very sick people with a very serious agenda.
When I read over the posts on this thread I find myself vaguely horrified that this man still has such a hold on people's souls. But I do understand it. In RD's church, there were always the people he "loved" and would help and held up to the rest of us as elders and prophets.... and then there were those of us who were there to be used and then discarded when we were no longer useful or had been used up. I was always aware of this but I didn't understand it due to my youth. I thought it must be the way "God" wanted it ..those who are special and those of us who were not special. We were the donkeys..the mules.. the workhorses. Desperately trying to find a seat in heaven only to find that we were meant to sit outside in the cold and be happy for that little shadow that fell on us by our betters.
Well, if any of you know Holly, or Steve, Greg? Remember Greg? Very curly hair ..was into drugs when he first showed up at the church and within a year or so was an elder and a prophet. His brother (I think his name was Steve but I'm not sure) wound up joining as well. Greg was one of the "winners" of the church but his brother was .. like me. Never quite good enough..
I always wondered what happened to the fellow that came to us from Africa. His name was Albert (Luthuli? I think.. not sure) but if you attended RD's church from about 69-73 .. you will remember him!! He would prophesy for 15 minutes straight without needing to catch a breath and he spoke the most beautiful English. He too wound up being one of the "unwanted ones" when we went up to see Brother Stevens who took one look at this very black, African fellow and immediately decided that Albert .. sweet, kind and loving Albert was a false prophet! I was so shocked and poor Albert. He thought he had found his place in this new age coming ...an Age of the love of Jesus (that's how Albert saw it). Indeed I guess he must have been a false prophet... he believed in RD and he believed in the church of the living word. What I saw when we went up to the LA area to visit Brother Stevens church was a lot of very nicely dressed conservative white people and they looked at Albert in absolute horror when he came to the church. I didn't realize it for what it was when we first arrived at the church and went inside. It took me a bit to realize what the real issue was. Albert was a very well dressed man. He was immaculate and always dressed as best as he could (which usually was a nice suit) when he came to church. And for the church that RD ran, this was an anomaly. Most of the people that went to RD's church were ex-hippies and drug addicts. Albert was none of those things. He was a tribal fellow who had just arrived from Africa (Holly and I, along with a few others, were the ones that went to the airport to pick him up when he first flew in from Africa) and in his youth, he lived with his tribe in the out back of one of the African nations (I want to say Kenya but I don't think that's correct). He wore what they did and behaved as they did and loved the Gods that they had until one day a missionary came and told him he would be going to school to learn to read and write. It was at that school that Albert accepted jesus into his heart and became a christian. He also turned away from his village and tribe and began trying to get to a christian nation where he could share the joy of his new found faith. The people in Brother Stevens church did not like him. From the moment they set eyes on him, you could see it .. that ugly nasty demon called RACISM... I didn't realize just how much people could be ruled by such a thing until Albert, such a beautiful soul, was called up in front of all of these people .. So happy to FINALLY be accepted by a faith and a congregation.... but that was not so. They proceeded to tell him he was a false prophet and that he was guilty of the sin of pride...and the list got longer and longer and when I finally had the courage to look into Alberts face, as he walked back down the aisle, away from the Elders and Brother Stevens and the pulpit, he looked so hurt and so very betrayed. In the end RD supported Stevens. I felt very sad for Albert. It just about broke his heart.
I would love to know how he fared later on and I sure hope he did well because he deserved to do well. He was one of the most loving people I have ever met.
As for RD, he did so much damage ...
ah well.
Laters.


But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?
Mark Twain

[jlintott]

I think the black man's name was "Brother Herbert". He was from Africa.
We used to pick him up at the YMCA in downtown san diego; on the way down to RD's church. A true believer.
I happened to meet him on the street after he left our little cult. Herbert looked a little bit disoriented. He was carrying a golf-club shaft with the head missing--Said: ""God was going to rule the nations with a rod of iron". He wasn't wearing his suit anymore. I'm sorry to say that he didn't seem to too happy.

Marcelino (Marty Sr.) Martinez was a trustworthy man. I am glad that he went to bat for you. He was a father figure to some of us who needed one. I can picture him chewing out his family for ten minutes on your behalf.

Nobody likes to be a house slave, when they are wanting to be a daughter.

-Ghostwolf: thank you for your remembrances. Thank you for not glossing things over too.

[jimmie_]

Holy SH*T Ghostwolf! What a nightmare!
I am so glad you have survived to tell the tale.
As I've said before, it looks like I really dodged a bullet by not getting any more involved with "The Walk" than I did!
Interestingly, I have a boss who has recently shifted his belief system from hardcore Christian Scientist to a small non-denominational charismatic church here in the Bay Area. I'm waiting for this already whacky guy to get whackier!

[truth_is_a_choice]

Ghostwolf; thank you for sharing your story, Hope to keep hearing from you. I was in the group too, but much later. I'm sorry to hear of all the havock wreaked because of it -but can identify with it; just as many people who hop on and off here probably can. Glad to hear you are doing well now?
TIAC

[truth_is_a_choice]

Hoping this isn't an innapropriate time -but I do have a question; When I was in the group, I knew nothing about baptism (in water). Never saw anyone getting baptised, don't think they ever had a baptismal pool or baptised anyone -never even heard anything about it...since its such an essential element of Christian faith (regardless of any quarrels between religions on how to do it -the fact remains that in regular churches it is and has been something they do)....My question is, was it always this way??? Did Stevens or RD ever baptise in water?

[mike_j]

I He had me move out of my family home and into another families' home (Martin Martinez...his wife and two sons). Mr. Martinez was a wonderful man but his kids and his wife were another story altogether. It seems that Ms. Martinez was not looking for a daughter (which was what I was told) but was actually looking for a servant to clean the house, do the yard work, etc. for her). I was the answer to her prayers. I was treated as a slave (I mean that literally) and abused verbally and physically ongoing. I couldn't really tell anyone because RD was a firm believer in corporal punishment (spoil the rod, etc) and he would have just told me that I was being rebellious and "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!! (A verse from Deut that always was quoted to us kids if we asked a question or complained about something). At one point Mrs. Martinez wanted me to quit high school so that I could be a better 'daughter" (that is to say, do more work for her as Ms. Martinez felt that her darling sons shouldn't have to do any housework or chores...one was 22 and in college and the other was 16 and spent his time away from school surfing...she felt that I should take over all of the chores so that the "men" could do what men wanted to do - i.e. surf, dating, whatever) and that's when Mr. Martinez found out what had been going on behind his back and while he was at work. He was furious and yelled at his wife and sons for the better part of 10 minutes about "She's supposed to be our DAUGHTER . NOT YOUR SLAVE! And you boys!! You disgust me!! You're lazy and won't do anything and NOW you wanted to take advantage of some little girl?? NOT IN MY HOUSE!!"

Good for Marty! I got to know him in the late 70's, when he became part of the Redlands' church. I don't ever recall him using his position for advantage in the years I knew him.
So many in 'authority' looked upon the 'sheep' as personal property...disposable if they became too much a nuisance. The attitude of blaming the victim, as you allude to, was not uncommon.
Hope you have found an avenue for some healing after all these years, Ghostworld.
Take care.


MJ
lweezcj@yahoo.com

[Ghostwolf]

That's right!! His name was Albert!
I loved that guy. He was a wonderful fellow.

If you were hanging around Albert, we must have met. I think I mentioned that I went with the people who originally picked him up at the airport (Holly, I think Patrice went as well, a fellow (who's name I can't remember but was a nice guy - Eduardo perhaps?). I was just a kid and I hung out over at Holly's house a great deal that year (Claremont Mesa area). After the end of the school year my mom and I wound up moving to the other side of San Diego and were living in Ocean Beach. Around that time things in the church became much more intense and the requirements of being a "good xtian" much more arduous. I was truly intent on being a good xtian and a good person. It was never enough for RD or the elders. OH WELL. LOL

There was this group of rather young elders..Bill Wright, Rod Fink and .. the third guy escapes me.. Did you know them at all?
In hanging around the church all the time I managed to meet most everyone who went to the church. I have often wondered what happened to these people. Some of them were very heartfelt folks just trying to do the right thing by god.

I went by the name Christy back then. That sounds odd. I didn't change my name. I just changed the already shortened version to an even shorter version, Chris. Did you know me back then? It would have been around 69-72..

I hope all is well with you luv.
Take care and thank you for the reminder about Herbert actual name.

Ghost

Ps The payoff for Mr. Martinez going to bat for me was not a good one. RD seemed to feel that Ms. Martinez using me as a servant was a grand and glorious idea and proceeded to tell Mr Martinez that he was in the wrong for correcting his vicious wife and his spoiled to death male offspring. I still remember his son, Martin Jr (if I remember the name right.. names and me have never been on good terms heeh) smirking at me while RD was reading Mr Martinez the riot act concerning the issue. In the end I was the one left to blame though. Mr Martinez was out of his league in trying to deal with those people. So as he told Mr Martinez how far off the mark he was the conversation and accusations were about to be turned to me... the evil 14 year old who was trying to ruin a good RD type of xtian home. In truth, it didn't fly because I had never asked Mr. Martinez to do anything for me. I never discussed the issue with him at all. HE saw what was happening and one night just lost his temper and told his wife and sons how very wrong they were etc. So, when RD went to blame me for the incident, Mr. Martinez interjected, "But Christy never came to me with made up stories ...she never said anything to me about the ordeal my wife and sons were putting her through.." Did you ever notice that RD absolutely HATED being questioned or even worse... contradicted?
It was one of those moments.. Since RD was trying to make me the one responsible for how things had fallen out and tried to say that it was due to me complaining to Mr Martinez that Mr Martinez lost his temper, etc..
When Mr Martinez's answer was, "But she never said ANYTHING to me at ALL about this ..She NEVER complained to me...nothing like that occurred RD! It was ME who SAW how she was being treated! I WAS the one who took issue with it an I AM the one taking issue with it and she is a child and I don't want her to be treated like this! NOT IN MY HOME!" RD proceeded to explain that he was very busy and had other things he had to attend to.
After that both me and Mr Martinez were on RD's sh*t list. I didn't realize the seriousness of this in terms of how RD would react (later on there would be serious consequences for me)... I did realize that the Martinez household had become almost electric due to the stress this incident had provoked. He was at odds with his wife and his sons over it and after already going through a nasty divorce with one set of parents, I certainly didn't want to be part of reason for this other marriage to take a turn for the worst... So I left and went back to my mothers house.
I'll always remember Mr Martinez as a wonderful man with deep convictions and a profound and caring nature. He was a wonderful man. The world sure could use few more of his kind.
Make that A LOT more of his kind! :)
Great guy!


I think the black man's name was "Brother Herbert". He was from Africa.
We used to pick him up at the YMCA in downtown san diego; on the way down to RD's church. A true believer.
I happened to meet him on the street after he left our little cult. Herbert looked a little bit disoriented. He was carrying a golf-club shaft with the head missing--Said: ""God was going to rule the nations with a rod of iron". He wasn't wearing his suit anymore. I'm sorry to say that he didn't seem to too happy.

Marcelino (Marty Sr.) Martinez was a trustworthy man. I am glad that he went to bat for you. He was a father figure to some of us who needed one. I can picture him chewing out his family for ten minutes on your behalf.

Nobody likes to be a house slave, when they are wanting to be a daughter.

-Ghostwolf: thank you for your remembrances. Thank you for not glossing things over too.

[jlintott]

Christy'

I probably knew you.

Marcelino was a "real deal" father to me, you, and a few others. He always treated people with alot of respect.
I will always remember him as sombody who stood on his own two feet; yet was approachable.
A few years ago, he passed away at age 70. His legacy remains.
-JL

[Ghostwolf]

I remember two baptism events happening during my time at RD's church.
They were held down at the beach and both David and RD were there for them. I was under the impression though that this was David's idea with RD supporting the idea so I am not certain though whether it was a church teaching for COTLW or not. I remember thinking it was more a re-affirmation of faith rather than representing induction into COTLW.
Also, regardless of the affiliation with Steven's church, RD seemed to run this church according to what RD felt should be going down there.
Back to the baptism...
The first time I went, David baptised me and the second time I went, RD baptised me. I remember asking why we were doing it twice and someone replied, "Because there's no reason not to." For that particular baptism that I received it seemed to be a celebration of our faith.
I hope this helps answer your question.
Ghost




Hoping this isn't an innapropriate time -but I do have a question; When I was in the group, I knew nothing about baptism (in water). Never saw anyone getting baptised, don't think they ever had a baptismal pool or baptised anyone -never even heard anything about it...since its such an essential element of Christian faith (regardless of any quarrels between religions on how to do it -the fact remains that in regular churches it is and has been something they do)....My question is, was it always this way??? Did Stevens or RD ever baptise in water?

[truth_is_a_choice]

Ghostwolf; Thank you.
TIAC

[bizzmoth]

Thank you, Ghostwolf, for writing about your experiences. It is very haunting to read and unfortunately, is not the only story like that. It is an account of classic spiritual abuse.

By the way, for those of you that might be new, there is much to read about the Living Word Fellowship in the "Old Forum". Just click on that link (above) and it should take you there. There are many threads - both for Church of the Living Word and for Shiloh.

Regarding water baptism - it was done, but not too regularly. (probably due to the slow rate of new converts). Often there would be a water baptism once a summer for the young adults in the lake at Shiloh. Also, they were done often in San Diego at the La Jolla Cove.

[DEBB]

RD married my husband and I and even though we are divorced, we are still friends. I was a part of the walk for 11 years. I believe God was in it and then God moved on because we became worshippers of the gifts more than the giver of gifts who is God. I believe pride and lust for ministry became more important than intimacy with Jesus and just wanting to love him and walk with him. God left the walk but He never left me. I left the walk and went into the world and came back to the Lord about 15 years later. I worship at Living Springs where David Cokas is the pastor.

I have very good memories of RD and JRS and also some bad ones but I am not bitter or angry. If you are really after a walk with Jesus, you can heal and you will be able to look at everything that has happened in your life and give praise to God who can turn what was meant for evil into something good. My children were born after I had entered The Walk and all but one have a walk with the Lord. I am still holding on to my faith for the one remaining child I have that she too will see the Lord and come to love him.

Vaughn, I remember your Mom and Dad being a blessing to me. I realize many terrible things have been said but I am blessed that you seem to have come out of this with a deeper revelation of the Lord for your own life. God bless you and keep your focus on Jesus. He is returning to the earth in all of his glory for his bride!

[ddemetrius456]

Hii!!This story is really very nice and heart touchable also.I like it's writting style.thanks for sharing with us.keep up posting.:)


________________
Managed Services (http://www.4net-technologies.co.uk/)

[jlintott]

I would like to encourage anyone who wants to contribute to this forum to just go ahead, and do it.

Perhaps somebody needs to hear about your experiences.

And, it is just a wonderful thing knowing you are not the only one.
-JL

[hoodornament]

Hey Vaughn (or anybody who knows how to get in touch with Vaughn), I just sent you a private msg.

Now, regarding RD, even though I was only at Coniah Chapel for less than 3 years, RD is one of two great spiritual influences on my life (for the good). I'm sorry I never got to tell him so.

[hoodornament]

Ghostwolf:
Wow... Down memory lane. I guess I was about 5 or 6 years older than you. I knew these people you mention. Rod Fink was "my" elder. I dated Kathy O'Connor, although from your description, I can't tell if it was before or after Steve Bell. Poor Kathy. I knew the Martinez family, although not well. I lived at the 54th Street Brothers house.
The only thing I know about Al Goff is that I was present in the church service when RD made a big show of "delivering him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh," something I thought harsh even at the time.
It is my earnest hope and prayer that you have been able to come to healing and forgiveness for all the harm done to you. I know from first hand experience the scars and damage that can be done to an adolescent by an in-charge "adult." I had this experience but not in Coniah Chapel nor in the Walk. (I was 20 when I first heard of Coniah Chapel.)

[jlintott]

Factnet is FREE!

[bizzmoth]

The post by Ghostwolf is still haunting to read. Unfortunately, it is not unique to this one incident within the Living Word. The comment about how people are disposable brings back reminders to me of some of the authority figures in the LA area - especially at the LW building. The spiritual abuse continues even today - they're just more refined at it now, so it's not so blantant. But still just as destructive to people - epecially young adults (who never quite develop into adults in this toxic cult). The book "Twisted Scriptures" outlines a lot of these methods very well.

[jlintott]

Tom Waits-Chocolate Jesus
David Letterman 1999
(youtube)

for those who don't make it on sunday anymore.

[jlintott]

Blind Boy's of Alabama did a fine rendition of "way down in the hole".
Kind of a bluesy gospel song.'

But...

Tom Waits upped the ante with "Down In The Hole". I think it sort of captures the Coniah Chapel scene pretty well.

It was a time of binding demons in style. RD's style, (worley period).

shakem on down, stomp yer foot!

(youtube)

[jlintott]

R. Crumb has released his latest book: "THE ILLUSTRATED BOOK OF GENESIS"

This 200+page "cartoon" is actually a fairly through treatment of the stories, and people contained in the first book of the Bible. Even the "begat's" have some space, and illuminating personality to them.
Parental Discretion Advised. (Not much out of context with the actual biblical record though)

Robert Crumb is a well known underground comic. (Zap Comix; "Keep Trucking"; Mr. Natural; the movie:"Crumb", yada, yada)

This entertaining book could become an "all night page turner" for that certain difficult saint on your list.

I liked it.

-JL