Laws governing pastors

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Does anyone know where on the web there might be information about pastors taking money from people and also pastors counseling people? These are two separate issues. In the first, my former pastor is now accepting *alot* of money every month from an elderly woman who is a widow and whose mental state is deteriorating. It is to the point that she can't pay all of her own bills every month.

On the second issue, my former pastor counseled several people (myself included), and all of us feel like he was negligent and mishandled the counseling badly, not to mention breaking confidentiality. He is not licensed to counsel, to my knowledge, so I'm not sure what laws might apply to pastoral counseling without a license.

If anyone knows of any sites with information about these two issues, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

[M (69.242.21.100)]

hello, many Pastors may not have all the answers but they do try .i believe when someone counsels they should give godly counsel and PRAYER in many instances the people with the problem must repent if theres something in their life that shouldn't be.
Financial accountability is hard to come by in many ministries as very few are transparent with thier finances...
but Churches recieve a tithe or offering ....they should NOT charge for counsel

[m (69.242.21.100)]

there is a site called www.ministrywatch.org and then theres the ECFA evangelical council of financial accountability ...which lists members and their finances

[ohwretchedmanthatiam (ohwretchedmanthatiam)]

If a pastor can not discern correct responsible management assistance for a widow, i.e. to take care of them, not to pilfer nor take advantage of them I would question their humbleness before Jesus/GOD. If she has trustworthy not greedy children or grandchilren they may want to step in as a guardian to help her with her interests and intents and wishes.

Private counseling of a psychological nature is regulated within each state with set rules and regulations, usually counseling associations gvt and dept. of ed and private practice certification related.

I used to be in private practice years ago as a rehab. counsultant/counselor and the rules are pretty standard for the most part nationally and state wide. There are loop holes which can be exploited but standards and ethics for private certifications abounded.

Breaking confidentiality depends on what is involved, i.e. if I thought a person was a danger to self or others I consulted with medical legal and judiciary people to prevent injury or harmful actions of violence which could result in injury to the person or persons involved.

Keeping information confidential is a rare find in counseling circles and I am not sure of it's prevelance or negligence in pastoral counseling.

If the pastor feels they are not helping the people he should have enough wherewithall to ask his professional counterparts and or supporting groups for alternatives, practices and standards. I see many pastors in over their heads when it comes to support counseling, i.e. the hard school of knocks for drug and alcohol abusers, criminal offenders, sexual deviancies, medical and rehab. management issues, etc.

The skilled pastors have been blessed to secure wisedom from mentors in the fields they are trying to provide parishoner support in. One of my favorite pastors runs a fedx business to help out with his church activities and takes a huge part in contributing to the church as a result. Like the tent makers in the NT, not causing financial burdens but blessings.

If you had to put a person in jail to keep them from hurting others that is a difficult call. Thank Jesus/GOD I was able to intervene with police to explain the situations so they dont hurt the persons and help sign to bail them out later to watch over them when they were stable. Much like taking care of your own children with us being the children and Jesus/GOD the Father.


I pray you find a consolence suitable from Jesus/GOD's satisfaction. Though many times I have had to eat crow, better warm than cold, LOL when it's tougher. In the unpleasant resolution situation I always ask Jesus/GOD what the meaning of all this is about in prayer. He usually shows me clearly and teaches me where it is in the Bible as well.

Jesus/GOD Bless!

The Bible lists some practical considerations.

KJ 1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the
pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Men should not take money to preach the Gospel.

Anyone who does is working for himself, not for the Lord.

[overseas (overseas)]

Pastors accepting money directly from a believer and not via the church collection/not going through the church books - this is bad. Accepting money from an irresponsible old woman and jeopardising her well being is very mean. That should stop.

To refine a bit "Men should not take money to preach the Gospel." It is also my personal stand. But I also have the opinion that Bible allows full time ministers paid by the church. But in what sense ? Preachers motivated by money - I think they are going to hell. But there may be christians with real gifts wishing to minister as much as possible motivated by God glory and people needs. To these, the church may choose to offer the possibility to do God work extensively while the church takes care of their living. So the church may choose to pay for their expenses if the respective preachers motivations are rooted in God beyond any doubt. However no preacher has the right to come in front of the flock and demand to be paid. Also my opinion is that paying them should be kept to the minimum to avoid any doubt on the preachers motivation. The distinction above is hard to keep many times and abuses are very likely, I know that.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Overseas: You and I are arguing Christian doctrines here. Neither of us is paid a penny to do so -- we do it because of our our beliefs. If you suddenly found out that I WAS being paid, wouldn't that change the whole way that you see me?

Paid Pastors don't go from being part-time to full-time, they go to school as for any other professional career. They then have the same choices that any other college graduate has, either find a job or go into business for themselves. Most go through the same process to be hired that anyone else does -- they send out applications, go to interviews, are told what the position pays and so on.

Many of those who go into business for themselves do so because they didn't actually get their degrees, or they are "defrocked." In the United States, ANYONE can start a church or claim to be a pastor. One example is Walter R. Martin, who got his basic degree, was defrocked, then started his own "ministry."

There is just something wrong with the idea that someone would become a professional preacher just like they would become an accountant or a dental hygenist.

[overseas (overseas)]

There is just something wrong with the idea that someone would become a professional preacher just like they would become an accountant or a dental hygenist.

Solo what about your other position that 'any guy can start to preach without any licence...'. I am not against your point, but want to know how you reconcile them.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Overseas: That anyone can preach, no license, was an observation, not a judgement.

Here in the US, there is no registration for people who want to preach and get money for it. If they register their ministry with the Internal Revenue Service, they can even gain tax-exempt status, meaning that the money which people give reduces their taxes, encouraging them to give more.

I have absolutely nothing against the idea of preaching without a license -- I have everything against the idea of preaching for pay, as a business.

If I were to sell T-shirts and posters showing pictures of, say, Paul McCartney, I could be sued if I didn't have McCartney's permission. The same if I were to give concerts singing his music, and didn't pay him for using his words to make money. This is because his likeness and his words belong to him.

If I gave away the pictures without charge, and sang his songs for anyone to hear (again without charge), that is a legal "public use" of his likeness and work.

Whatever you think of McCartney, it is wrong to treat the SAVIOR with less respect than we give a rock star.

[overseas (overseas)]

OK.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

<font color="0000ff">I have absolutely nothing against the idea of preaching without a license -- I have everything against the idea of preaching for pay, as a business.</font>

Solopilot,
Now there is something we agree on!

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Curious:

Cool, I'll start filling the baptismal font. ;)

Seriously, how many Protestant ministers do you know who refuse to take pay for their preaching, either as salary or as "love offerings" of money or other things? I have only ever known of one, he preached in a Southern California park, rain or shine. It was amusing (in a friendly way) to see him holding his umbrella in a rainstorm, while his congregation (about 100) huddled across the street under an overhanging roof of a hospital. He is one of the 4 or 5 Protestant pastors (depending on how you count them) for whom I have nothing but respect. He came from a wealthy family so he didn't have to work, and rather than play all the time, he ministered to everyone he could.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

I don't have a problem with pastors/teachers/preachers being paid per se; it's how they get to that point that concerns me.
I'll use our church fellowship for an example: we have different ones who are recognized as elders and teachers because they qualify for that position based on Biblical guidelines and the fact that they are functioning as such. They all have secular occupations. Occasionally we will be led to "free up" one of these to spend more time teaching &amp; preaching by supplementing their income, but this is always because they were already doing the work, not because they want to become a church leader.
Make sense?

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Curious:

Yes, it makes sense, but it is still paying someone to preach.

I am in a church which doesn't do that. It works for us, and can work for any church.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Ours is functioning that way right now, too. I agree that it can and does work. But I also think there is a huge difference between someone who is already doing the work being offered the opportunity to ease up on their secular work a bit and someone who says "I want to do the work; will you pay me?"

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Yes, there is a difference there, but these should be temporary and slight "opportunities."

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

The problem isn't in the pastors, it is in the way that the church has, by and large, become a spectator sport and has gotten away from gift based ministry to "whoever wants to".

As long as people go to church to get "recharged", or to have their needs/wants met and refuse to commit to the great commission ministry of the CHURCH nothing will change.

The Spirit hands out gifts to every believer for the building up of the Body. While we cannot turn Christianity into a performance religion, the fact is that every Christian is a called to be a minister, and every Christian, from the point of salvation, is supernaturally enabled to serve Christ and the local church.

As long as pastors/elders/deacons/teachers continue to cater to felt needs and continue to dumb down God's word we will not see a change.

I sense that a new reformation is coming, as I find pockets of believers tired of the status quo and who want to see God make His name great! We must all stop just pointing out what is wrong, and
must add thre step of becoming equipped to serve Himm wherever He may call us.

I am a pastor, but I think that the Seminary system, and generally, how we do church is out of step with what the Bible generally teaches.

We refuse to come under any authority, we refuse to disciple believers, and we continue to allow p[oeple to have false security of being in the Kingdom when there is no evidence of the life change that God promises will occur in the regenerated.

It is time to stop using the Bible for binoculars, and to use it for a mirror and to come under it's authority and follow Him.

Not that I need to explain to you, but I left a good career to follow His call, and I am now a paid pastor. My kids qualify for every free program that is available because I get paid so little, yet God has blessed us with kids who have ADHD, eye problems, etc. We are close knit, my wife is a godly woman, and even though I struggle, I know that I have left everything, family, friends, earthly security and status to heed His call. And still, I am richer that 80% of the world. I am not perfect, God shows me my sin and flaws, and I move with Him to grow past those things.

Pray for your pastors and elders, and teachers, and if you really do know how to "do it right", then please do so.

I am not saying to be blind to the things that are wrong, or to just let them be, but some things are a product of the system, and He calls us to unity despite how man has, and continues to screw it up.
You, and I, must be faithful, despite the circumstances, to all that He has called us to.


Karl Graff
Pastor
Lighthouse Alliance Church
lacpastor@hotmail.com

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

Also, what do you do with 1 Timothy 5:17-19?

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Karl:

Well said!

The "spectator sport" churchgoers don't WANT there to be authority or discipline of any sort, because then there would be someone to point out that Sunday Christianity isn't really Christian.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Karl,
The 1 Timothy passage is one of the reasons why I said, "I don't have a problem with pastors/teachers/preachers being paid per se; it's how they get to that point that concerns me."

Amen to the rest of your post. Thank you!

[marie (marie)]

Karl
You hit the nail on the head! Until we as believers stop seeing the institutional church as church and realize the we, as individuals are the church we'll continue to fall very short of what God has called us to be. It's way too easy to go to church, drop your money in the bucket and expect the pastor or "church" to fulfill the great commission for you.

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

So, on the constructive side, how do we go about making this happen where we are?

[yaakov (yaakov)]

I don't understand this discussion. You have a religious leader that commits all their time to their occupation. They marry people, perform funerals and last rites, visit people in the hospital, conduct services and write the weekly newsletter. The religious leader does this as a full time occupation. This person needs to provide a home for their family and daily living needs. Why wouldn't you pay this person a salary? Doesn't your religious leader need to eat?

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Our point is that it shouldn't be a full-time occupation for one person. All the members of the fellowship should be exercising their gifts for the benefit of the whole body.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Can't help you there, Karl, it's a doctrinal problem.

[overseas (overseas)]

1 Tim. 5: 17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[b] and “The worker deserves his wages.”[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.

The context is indeed on providing for needs. But first for widows then for elders ! Then it talks about 'double honor'. To me it is nothing else than a special case in the broader doctrine of helping the needy in the church. It is not 'paying' pastors but 'providing for their needs' cause the initial statement of the text is "Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." then it moves to elders on the same issue. Pastors are to be helped not primarily because they preach but because they are our brothers in Christ too. But teaching and preaching takes some of their time in our favor so it is normal to compensate for that. The 'affairs of the church' are not extensively defined here so we have to corroborate Bible for that. So pastors that does not take care of the flock but rule over it disqualifies themselves regardless any formal appointment/annointment/ ordination. They are also identified as those 'preaching and teaching', again doing that in unbiblical ways disqualify them. Reluctance and care in accusing them does not come from some special annointment doctrine but from the fact that pastors deal with lots of people on moral sensitive issues, so people can get easily angry and attack pastors.

[overseas (overseas)]

Q: So, on the constructive side, how do we go about making this happen where we are?

The problem is with pastors positioning themselves between God and believers. Some do that for power, money, control. Some do that because they were taught so in seminaries. Some pastors notice believers do not look for God or have a hard time in understanding God so they sincerely step in as a tangible/ hard to ignore substitute for God.

Let's have some (serious) fun with the illustration of shepherd and the flock. Some pastors act like the shepherd has to cut the grass and feed the flock, not take the flock to the field and let it feed itself. Some pastors ask that the flock stays 'three in row' when they feed. Or ask all the flock to chew at the same pace. Or argues with the sheep producing black wool and demand only white wool from all sheep. Or establish an optimum size and weight for sheep and ask everyone to conform. Or establish a rigid schedule for feeding.

I say pastors are to facilitate our life with God not replace it. They do not have to produce God response for us but teach us how to ask God better. They should make sure we practice our faith and produce fruit that fit a wide range of good fruit, not dictate us a special fruit as mandatory.

Say a practical example. My church pastor starts a study from John Gospel on Friday night. He asks me to attend. I do not and explain that I studied that hard 1 year ago and that presently I am very interested in Romans. He asks me politely to have a short discussion on some hard topics from John just to make sure I don't go heretic in some difficult points. We discuss and agree on same interpretation on those points. Then he only asks me to come some times to the John study group to help with the study cause there are many attendants and he cannot take all questions from them. I promise I come at least 1 hour every two weeks. Then my pastor recommends me some good books and commentaries on Romans and prays with me for God to lead me in the study.
That is what I call a normal relationship.

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

Your are right in what you say, but in the congregations that I have been a part of in whatever role, many of the congregations were all to happy to let the pastor "be the man!"

I have gone to great lengths to remove the "clergy/lay person" divide because I don't think it should exist, at least not in the way that the church has allowed it to form.

SOmetimes the church creates it's own monsters.

WHen a man has to uproot his family and go $40000-$100000, and have an accredited degree just like other professional level workers do, just to exercise what is in reality a spiritual gift that should be nurtured and enabled by the church they have created an impossible situation.

Few churches can support someone with this kind of debt load, and their family and so it creates a problem that shouldn't even exist!

Overseas, your example from above was great and I have been in relationships like that one too, but once my first name became "pastor", it all changed and people were content for me to do my thing.

Peace-

Karl

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Karl:

Yes, that's what I mean by the problem being doctrinal. Protestants are used to being "Sunday's Saved, Monday's Muggers." They think that all they have to do is parrot "I believe!" and their sins are automatically washed away.

This is encouraged by so many of your fellow preachers that you really have no way to change it -- if you try too hard, they will replace you with someone else. They've hired you to read the Bible for them and pull out the parts that they need to know about, to put your own interpretation on them, and so long as you don't make them feel bad, they will keep paying you.

In my church, we pay NOBODY to preach the Gospel. The closest that we come are college instructors who teach classes on Christian doctrine and the Scriptures, and even they are not to preach in their roles as teachers. Gordon B. Hinckley, president of a church with 13,000,000 members worldwide, lives in an apartment across the street from his office which is smaller than many of the others in the neighborhood. He lives on his retirement from the Union Pacific Railroad and from his time as an office worker for the Church's PR department.

Contrast that to many of the Protestant preachers you know, who live in "above-middle-class" houses or even mansions, who build "cathedrals" and who go on TV to preach between please for money, while the "love offering hotline" numbers are on Chyron across the bottom of the screen.

Does your church pass the plate? The first thing that you can do if you really want to change this is to stop this practice -- provide envelopes and expect all donations to be made outside of meeting times, collected by a trusted member of the congregation.

Then go get a real job, Karl. Something which gives you and your family enough money to live on, yet time to do the Lord's work and keeps you free on Sundays. If you are still young enough that your college debt has not been retired, then let the offerings pay that off, because this is a professional expense, but don't take any money from the congregation other than actual, legitimate and direct expenses that you incur doing church work. You will discover that there aren't as many of these as you might think.

And don't let your position as pastor be a tool in furtherance of your business!

You won't believe how much closer you will feel to the Lord when you "shove the cash register out of the way."

So, there is your challenge. Stand up in the pulpit on Sunday and say that you will no longer accept money for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that the offerings will go to the church's bills, and whatever is left will go to do the Lord's work among the poor. Tell them that you know that this will make you a better pastor (I promise you that it will!) and that this will make your congregation stronger and closer to the Lord (again, I promise that it will).

You will be available on weekday nights for consultation if they need you, and for emergencies during the workday.

If the above looks difficult to you, let me remind you that thousands of Mormon bishops (our equivalent of a pastor or parish priest) live this live for several years at a time, before their replacements are called to serve. They are insurance agents, police officers, truck drivers, gardeners, business executives, scientists, ranchers, teachers, you name it. If they can do it, you can do it.

Then your church will not only NOT create monsters, it will slay the dragons of greed and envy. When my bishop stands to speak, I know that he is there because it's important to ME, not to his PAYCHECK. I am not distracted by an offering plate because we don't do that.

Give this a try for yourself.

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

Solo-

I gotta tell you, I do not personally know any pastors that live in better than average housing, nor any that have built cathedrals. I know that they are out there, but I also know that if they are in it for the money then 1 Peter condemns then as well as many others.

There are no "doctrines" concerning exactly how the church is to run, there are things that individuals, who make up the Body of Christ should do, but few that dictate how the church is to operate.

I already have done what you suggested, but God has called me not to change the system, but to tend His sheep and feed His lambs.

Again, not that I have to justify myself, but I have personally cut my salary, still tithe, and live a frugal life. If I were to take a "real" job then I would not be able to minister to as many people as I can now. The result is that individuals are experiencing personal, practical and spiritual growth, giving to the local work has increased, giving to the worldwide missions work has increased and God has supplied all of our needs. I am also free to do what God calls me to do, according to my Biblical job description, and in a "real" job I would lose that. I know that because I have done that- it doesn't work.

Many churches do not pass the plate. Of course, we do not demand a certain percentage of a members income so that they can maintain good standing either. We also do not believe that you must depend on your own work/goodness to merit any level of "heaven".

What then about the huge Temples? Why weren't those monies given to the LDS poor? I lived in SE Idaho-
I saw the IF Temple, and the SLC Temple. Not cheap... I personally helped poor LDS families.

The history of the LDS church, as well as any human grouping including Protestant, Catholic, Hindu, I could go on, is rife with examples of money and greed influencing men to do foolish things. If we want to pick gnats out of each others history that's fine, but to claim that the LDS church, with all of it's problems, has got it right is ludicrous.

DO you live the faith life that you ask others to? Every member a minister, and God promises to supply all that we need if we seek His Kingdom.
Why work at all?

My first responsibility, according to Him, is to Him, them my wife, then children and then the local body, whether I am pastor or not. I will be faithful to Him.

Peace,

Karl

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Karl:

Never heard of Robert Schuller???

Churches don't pass the plate nor expect members to pay to support the work? Yeah, right. ;)

The Salt Lake Temple was built strictly on volunteer labor, and took 40 years to build. Temples are that important. The work that we do in them is not for us, except for the first time we go. When I go through the temple, I go on behalf of someone who has died, to stand in for him as the necessary ordinances are performed.

The Church has one of the strongest welfare programs in the world. Perhaps you should ask yourself why a poor LDS family in "Mormon teritory" wouldn't be getting their aid from the Church. If you were in Idaho, then you already know about our canneries, factories, ranches, orchards and so on, all producing for the LDS humanitarian program. You know about "Deseret, the brand that money can't buy" and you know that we fast the first Sunday of each month, and give that money to feed the poor -- not only LDS poor, but also of other religions.

"Ludicrous" is the idea that preachers should take money for preaching. But then, that's your rice bowl. Maybe the difference is that you are preaching for yourself, we are preaching for Jesus Christ and he helps us do it.

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

Thanks for reading my mind and assuming the motives for everything I do! It is amazing how many people can do that!

I didn't say that preachers who steal weren't out there, I said that I didn't know them, personally.

Yes the work is for you too- that's how you gain merit towards heaven or god/goddesshood. You forget to mention that Mormondom has high rates of spouse abuse, child abuse, anti depressant medication use. Yes, it's documented, are there worse examples, yes to that too. The pressure on many LDS members, especially the women, to perform is incredible, along with the canneries, et al, I saw the pain in people's lives too.

Look, we don't even worship the same God, so if yours wants you to do church that way, fine.

Besides I didn't ask you what your church did, I asked you what you were willing to do. Glad you feel righteous! And that you are so humble...

Karl

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Karl:

It isn't that hard, really, once you know what to look for. ;)

My error, on the "pastors who steal" issue -- I didn't read the whole paragraph. Usually when I get into this issue, the pastors get huffy and say that there are NONE, as if they have never heard of Schuller and the Glass Monstrosity.

No, if the work was for me, it wouldn't "count" toward heaven, would it?

Yes, Mormon rates of abuse, depression, etc are almost as high as the rates in most Protestant churches. We are no more proud of this statistic than you should be.

No, we don't worship the same God. I worship the God of the Bible, who made man in his image and sent his Only Begotten Son to save us, his children.

You condemned the Church for the money spent on temples rather than giving it to the "LDS poor," so I answered you with some of the many ways that we take care of our poor (and other poor as well).

Of course, coming from someone whose money comes directly from the money given to the Lord, this condemnation is really kind of amusing.

And, yes, I do strive to follow the commandments of God, to be a better man, and to help others. And I do these things without expecting to be paid for them.

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

What I meant about another God was that you follow a Jesus who is Lucifer's spirit brother, you believe that works will earn you some sort of reward/status/godhood, unless you aren't a TBM- and you believe that God has progressed to being the god of this world, not the eternal, self existant God of the Bible.

Glad to amuse you...

Karl

Since you do not know Him, your words don't bother me too much.

[solopilot (solopilot)]

I know him far better than you do.

Ah, yes, the old "works" canard. When you have to lie about my beliefs, you have proven your own faith false.

But, since my beliefs are "wrong," please tell me where God came from, according to your beliefs.

Oh, yes, that's right, God didn't come from anywhere, he created himself or some similar nonsense not found in the Bible.

Doctrines of men. When you have no answer, say that there is no answer anywhere.

Please keep it up!

;)

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

How am I lying?
I did not condenm your church, I asked a question.
Why do you do your works in secret when the Bible states that Christians are not to do so?
Do you not gain from your good works?
Isn't Jesus considered to be the spirit brother of Lucifer?

President Spencer W. Kimball commented on the relationship of Lucifer to Jesus:

The importance of not accommodating temptation in the least degree is underlined by the Savior's example. Did not he recognize the danger when he was on the mountain with his fallen brother, Lucifer, being sorely tempted by that master tempter? He could have opened the door and flirted with danger by saying, "All right, Satan, I'll listen to your proposition. I need not succumb, I need not yield, I need not accept—but I'll listen." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 163)

President Spencer W. Kimball also wrote:

Similarly Satan had contended for the subservience of Moses. Satan, also a son of God, had rebelled and had been cast out of heaven and not permitted an earthly body as had his brother Jehovah. Much depended upon the outcome of this spectacular duel. Could Lucifer control and dominate this prophet Moses, who had learned so much directly from his Lord? (Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 87)

DOn't you believe in eternal progression?
Isn't godhood the penultimate end for a LDS adherent?

I know that you know the false god
better than I do.

The true God is self existent. It is His name. It is logical. He is the first cause, and as such exists.

Karl

(Message edited by lacpastor on January 15, 2005)

[egk (egk)]

Solopilot:

Where did the first being come from that became a God?

Who/what/how did the universe come into being such that following Mormon doctrines will result in a person becoming a God?

Who/what determined right or wrong?

These are serious questions, not trick questions.

God, according to Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant understanding, always is. I AM WHO AM is one of his names in the OT. The name, usually translated as "Jehovah" is derived from the Hebrew verb "to be" (at least so I've been told.) God existed "when" time and matter did not exist. All that exists, other than God, exits because God chose to create it.

Is it hard to conceive of such a Being as God? Yes, but it would be harder for me to believe that all that there is just happened to be.

I'm not says that Mormons believe that all that there is just happened to be. I would like you to explain to me what are the Mormon answers to these questions.

EGK

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Karl:

You lied by using the old "Mormons think that they are saved by works" bit. You know that this is not true -- or, if you don't know it, then you don't know much about Mormonism.

We don't do things "in secret." If you want to come into the temple and see what we do, all you have to do is become worthy and prepared, a process which takes about a year, starting with baptism in the Church. Anyone who goes through the process is not only welcome, but desired in the temple.

What I gain from doing good works is the same thing that you do -- knowing that we have done what Jesus wants us to do. I don't do them for selfish reasons, I do them because I am able to do them and I feel that I've been put in that position for a reason.

Jesus, Lucifer, and you, I and everyone else on the planet is a child of God. That makes us ALL brothers and sisters.

Yes, I'm sure that I know the false god better than you, because if you knew him like I do you would stop following him. When I recognized who he was, I left him and became a Mormon. Gave up the chance at a great career as a pastor, but there was no choice, I had to follow the God and Jesus of the Bible, not that absurd schizoid concept that so many other Christians follow.


EGK:

I don't know the answers to those questions. We aren't equipped to understand it, any more than a mole understands flight.

[lacpastor (lacpastor)]

Solopilot said...
<You lied by using the old "Mormons think that they are saved by works" bit. You know that this is not true -- or, if you don't know it, then you don't know much about Mormonism.

We don't do things "in secret." If you want to come into the temple and see what we do, all you have to do is become worthy and prepared, a process which takes about a year, starting with baptism in the Church.>

Becoming worthy, prepared, being baptised in the church-

Not in secret but only the worthy can attend...

NO works there, nope! What a joke. If you're into tragic comedy...

A career as a pastor? Good thing you didn't follow that path- probably would have caused a lot of harm. There are no careers, only callings. If I had wanted a career I'd never have left my last "real" job as you politely put it.

We'll see who's right in the end Solo. If you are, I've still got a chance to hear and accept the "restored" gospel; I won't get to be a god, or get into the first heaven, but being a god is a lot of responsibility, and besides I'm more of a blue collar guy than a penthouse guy.

If I'm right you're in a world of hurt. Maybe you ought to rethink this thing.

Do you want God, or an exalted man?

I'm done with this thread.

Karl}

[doug (doug)]

EGK and Iacpastor
How do you explain the scripture, when Jesus told the Pharisees that he and the father are one, that says
33 <font color="ff0000">The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are god's? 35 If he called them Gods, unto who the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), say you of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am Son of God</font> (John 10:33-36)
<font color="ff0000">I said, Ye are gods, and all of you sons of the most high (Psalm 82:6)</font>

Doesn't it say that when we see Christ we will be like him?

John 1:12 <font color="ff0000">But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God</font>

And

Job 1:6 <font color="ff0000">Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before God, that Satan also came among them
Job 2:1 Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahveh, that Satan came also among them to present himself to Yahveh.</font>

If satan and Jesus are both sons of God doesn't that make them brothers?

(Message edited by doug on January 17, 2005)

[egk (egk)]

Solopilot:

I find the mystery of Historic Christianity easier to accept than the Mormon one. (I use mystery in the traditional sense, a truth that cannot be fully understood by humans.)

EGK

[solopilot (solopilot)]

Well, gee, Karl, I thought that you were an "ordained" pastor. You got there without "works," ha? Yeah, right. Talk about "comedy!"

. . .and you live off the Lord's money . . .

Yes, Karl, rest assured that some good Christian will stand in for you in the temple, unless the Savior returns before that can happen, in which case . . .oh, well, sorry. You won't be too bad off, but you will be stuck in the mud because of your choices. YOU DESERVE BETTER THAN THAT.

We don't pick our fathers, Karl. I lucked out with my Earthly father, and wouldn't have wanted yours. We all lucked out with our Heavenly Father, and I'm sure he's sorry about the way you try to limit him . . .but he still sent our Elder Brother to save you.

EGK:

We must all pick which mysteries to face.

You might check http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/1999PylD.html for what the early Christians had to say on the issue.

[egk (egk)]

SoloPilot,

I could only skim the link at this point, let me say this about it.

1. The NT speaks much about our becoming new creatures in Jesus, of being like Him and of our becoming like him. I do not have time to find the references to these now. This belief has been referred to in the Orthodox Church as "deification."

2. This does not refer to the Mormon doctrine of progress. To you it would appear to, because you do not seem to have a grasp of the Historic Christian doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation. I do not have time at this moment, to explain them, (I hope to in the near future.) Let it suffice with this. What Jesus shares with the Father in being, through Jesus we can share, in a limited, finite way through adoption.

3. I'm glad to see that this link acknowledges that John lived to the 90s, if not 100s or 110s!


EGK

[solopilot (solopilot)]

EGK:

I have a grasp of the historic doctrine of the Trinity, as you see it. I also have a grasp of the fact that this doctrine didn't become "mainstream" doctrine until three centuries after the Crucifixion (Council of Nicaea).

All through the NT, Christ refers to his Father, and our Father. He prays to the Father. He even asks the Father to release him from his duty, but at the same time proves an obedient Son: ". . .not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:39

Yes, they say it's a given fact, though most theologians "believe" that he did.

[godchild (godchild)]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews ll:l

[godchild (godchild)]

Reference:Holy Bible
A man is worthy of his labor (Paul speaking to the churches).
Do not believe for a minute that the Prophet does not get paid. Who is the CEO of numerous corporations owned by the LDS church. The Prophet. This should be public record.

[overseas (overseas)]

Because of semantics and redefinition of terms it is strange to debate with Mormonism on salvation and Jesus role to that. Simply cause their goal is to become gods. The discussion stops there. Going further is to ignore the huge gap between terms. I guess Hindus can debate further with Mormons, not Protestants. Cause Hindu gurus promote the same goal by different methods.

Q: Yes, Karl, rest assured that some good Christian will stand in for you in the temple, unless the Savior returns before that can happen, in which case . . .

Now Mormons claim the protestants salvation depends on mormon baptising for dead in the temple. Mormons claim they are saviours, right ? Without Mormons baptising for us (protestants and catholic altogether) there is no chance for us, right ? Definitely cultic.

[doug (doug)]

Many people interpret scriptures in different ways. I contend that if you are going to argue Mormonism you can't argue it on the doctrine of becoming gods or Satan and Jesus being brothers.

How do you explain the scripture, when Jesus told the Pharisees that he and the father are one, that says
33 <font color="ff0000">The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, make yourself God 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are god's? 35 If he called them Gods, unto who the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), say you of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme; because I said, I am Son of God</font> (John 10:33-36)
<font color="ff0000">I said, Ye are gods, and all of you sons of the most high (Psalm 82:6)</font>

Doesn't it say that when we see Christ we will be like him?

John 1:12 <font color="ff0000">But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God</font>

And

Job 1:6 <font color="ff0000">Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before God, that Satan also came among them
Job 2:1 Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahveh, that Satan came also among them to present himself to Yahveh.</font>

If satan and Jesus are both sons of God doesn't that make them brothers?