Sheparding Doctrine

[caddsgn (caddsgn)]

I just heard a new one - Sheparding Doctrine. Does anybody have a general understanding of this concept they would like to share?

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Check out the posts about maranatha or Morning star on this board. Descipling or sheparding is discussed there. The G12 conversation is basically the same thing too. From what I have seen and heard, it basically takes away our God given free will.

[caddsgn (caddsgn)]

Wow! There's a lot of info there. It will take much time to read through and consider, but at a glance it appears to be an extreme of a situation I currently find myself in. Thank you for the reply!

My primary question that has fueled my searching is this: What level of authority does the leadership of a church have in a person's life?

My secondary question is: Is it "pride" in one's heart if he leaves the church that appears to be authoritative (and controlling) in nature to attend one that seems to be focused more on "reaching out" (missions, etc.) rather than "drawing in" (retreats, men's and women's studies, etc.)?

One phrase I liked in one of the posts is, (paraphrased) "church attendance is equated to spiritual growth". I'm feeling smothered where I am and have been trying to pinpoint the problem, but it is difficult to do so. Thus, my search.

Again, thanks for the referrals.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

In the US, we are free to chose who has authority over us by voting on officials and chosing our churches. I have shared this scripture before on one of the threads I suggested. But, I will share it again as I think it can help.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

I see the opposite of being under an authoritarian structure as being freedom. Search the scriptures on freedom and enjoy. Your smothering sounds like what the bible calls oppression which is potentially the result of having a king or idol in your life. You may want to talk to God and check scripture on that too.

[marie (marie)]

The shepherding movement has been around for decades. My family got involved with it for a short time in the late 70's. It was not a good thing. Basically, the way it worked in the community we were in, each person was assigned someone else they were accountable to. Any major decision had to be run by your "head" (especially financial decisions).

It's premise was the scripture about submitting to each other in the Lord. However this was abused by leader and follower alike. The abuses on the leaders' part is obvious and has been addressed ad naseum.

The sin of the followers is in taking a passive attitude in their walk with God and allowing another to tell them what to do instead of seeking God out for themselves. Personally, I find it much easier to blindly follow my "authority". And the bonus for the follower is that they get to feel really spiritual for "submitting."

[saved_by_grace (saved_by_grace)]

I think the local church (not one person) as a whole has the authority. The church should teach and feed its members and if there is any need for other actions (i.e. discipline) the bible lays out how this should take place.

I agree that we are not to blindly follow but to seek God's word ourselves.

[overseas (overseas)]

I do not know much on that doctrine as I am not US. But same problem you get in other places cause it is human nature that perverts Bible doctrine.

Q: What level of authority does the leadership of a church have in a person's life?
To discuss the level of authority I am asking what is the field of authority ? Can the pastor/ elder ask me to do something without backing it with Bible ? If I agree that request is coming from the Bible, then I can find that for myself and I do not need the pastor right ? If pastor asks me to do something and not able to back it with Bible or I do not agree that interpretation being correct, then do I have to follow his request blindly ? If authority comes strictly by compliance with the Bible, then is pastoral authority nothing more than an example of 'how to do it' rather than 'what to do' ?
I think the main issue is what type of autority is legitimate in the church and in what fields of our lives it should be manifested. Cause strictly regarding the level of authority, if it is legitimate I would say we should recognise that 100%.

Q: Is it "pride" in one's heart if he leaves the church that appears to be authoritative (and controlling) in nature to attend one that seems to be focused more on "reaching out" (missions, etc.) rather than "drawing in" (retreats, men's and women's studies, etc.)?
I used to lead some bible studies with students. When one asked me if my church allows me to do that outside the church, I replied that I never considered my actions apart from the church cause I was part of the church. The truth that we are the church is parallel with the universal priesthood mandate and the spiritual gifts given by God to each believer to minister. I did not aske for my local church approval to lead bible studies with students, nor kept it secret from the pastor. Should the pastor ban me to do that simply cause he did not give me that mandate I would quit that local church in a minute. Should anyone oppose me and accuse me of wrong doctrine exposed on those studies, I would pay him all my attention.

Tell you about the famous verses Hebrews 13:17: "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account."
Leaders do not come by simple appointment, they must prove me they watch after me the with the same care Jesus did for His disciples. Leaders should prove an attitude of being aware of their accountability before God. Transparency and being accountable to his flock is a good start too. Show me some fellow claiming his authority over me just like that and I am gonna kick him off. Taking into account the difficulties involved and special responsibility to God, my understanding is that any christian called by God to be a pastor should tremble with fear because of the sensitivity of his job.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Overseas - I agree. I had trouble with a pastor once and when I took it to the church, I was told not to touch God's "annointed". While at one of the leaders homes, I sat in a chair and they told me I had to get out of the chair because it was where the "annointed" person sat.... and I was submitting to this junk... I left and if I ever run into anyone expecting blind submission to someone claiming to be an authority of God again (with no transparancy or accountability to the flock) "I am gonna kick him off" and fast!! Difficult lesson to have to learn in life. But, probably something many have been through. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

[overseas (overseas)]

Lc_20 I am both glad to hear that (cause God helped you to avoid false authority) and sad (that people practice and accept false authority). The way one sees the authority topic is strictly linked to one's beliefs on what church is, how God is guiding us, definition of spiritual gifts, personal responsibility to study God word.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Overseas - Yes - I am starting to see the bigger picture. At first it seemed to be me vs my pastor. But, years later, I am seeing why we clashed. We agreed on the Truth of Jesus. But I wasn't buying into the authority/discipling thing and after years of "rebellion" I moved on. If I had known the strife was due to doctrine differences, I would have never hoped for understanding/reconcilation and I would have moved on much sooner. Also, I would probably have been able to saved myself the pain from all the rebukes and controlling prayers. I believed I could hear directly from the Holy Spirit and that I had free-will and now I see that they didn't want me believing that. In the end, when I was leaving, they asked me who was discipling me. They knew I didn't have a discipler. They were saying it to prove their point that my lack of participation in their program was what was causing my unhappiness with the church. As I read these threads and get an understanding of the different doctrines, I am feeling more confident that I will not get myself in that situation again. Thanks for sharing.

[overseas (overseas)]

Lc 20 god bless. It is blessing for me to see people that refute human made authority but still so submitted to a Greater authority.
Any pastor trying to validate him with apostles example have to know that apostles had unique authority for bringing God truth to light as eyewitness of Jesus and 'imposing' it to church. After that apostle authority ceased cause apostolic authority was just a tool for God to give the NT to the church. NT enables people to live personally and directly under God authority. But some pastors minister as like they still live before the canon was completed. Blind and fool people !

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

I have heard your teaching on the apostolic ceasing before. Their response would be that the bible says these things won't cease until the perfect one comes which is Jesus. So, because Jesus won't return until his bride is ready - without wrinkle or spot -there are still apostles - including themselves to build up the Bride of Christ or the church. Biblically, I can see how both arguements are supported. But, experiencially, I doubt that these people are truly apostles just due to the human nature factor I see so strong in them. Plus, I don't see how what they are building could ever be without spot or wrinkle. What do you think of thie Bride of Christ logic?

I found a note on their web page that says that the bible is the authority on topics "on which it speaks" - or something like that. Which implies you still need an authority on all topics not covered by the bible. Have you heard this argument before?

[overseas (overseas)]

I am surprised and not so... Cause it came straight from my Bible to me, not from others. But others have Bibles too http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Praise the Lord.

See Gal.1: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Paul here links authority not only to him as a person forever, but also to a specific moment in time when he was especially under the God detailed guidance to bring the revelation to us. Do you get it ? I would paraphrase like that: 'the true Gospel is the one I told you when I was certified by God with signs and wonders; should I come to you later, not showing the signs of an apostle under the God special guidance and contradicting my previous teachings you reject me'.
Ephes. 3: 2Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.'
I am not able to give you right now the verses proving the job of the apostles was over. But the contraargument about the 'coming of perfect one' - I can't apply that to authority.

I am not in/ from US so I do not know all doctrines there. I looked briefly on the site with Bride of Christ. What you stated from them is ridiculous ! First I am gonna argue till sweating blood to establish what topics Bible addresses and which not. Then I am gonna question the competencies/ abilities of the 'appointed ones' until they either prove perfect http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif or they run away. Third I am very curious how these wonderboys that claim they can stand in line with Scripture can be found and recognised !
If you have some clear description of Bride of Christ logic pls post it for me.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

I can't find anything in writing, but I think this is the scripture they used when saying the church needs to get ready before Christ returns.

Revelation 19:7
7"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

Ephesians 5:27
that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Sorry I don't have more detail. I think I remember some people posting some information on this under the maranatha thread. I will look around there for it.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Another scripture they use to support submitting to their spiritual authority is Ephesians 4:11-14.

11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as (C)evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

[overseas (overseas)]

lc20 see this thread below on factnet for discussing authority/shepherd doctrines:

Religious Cults and Sects » Doctrine / Belief / Proofs » Laws governing pastors.

[caddsgn (caddsgn)]

Hi you two -

Sorry, been out of town and out of touch. Mom died on the 1st, so many things had to be taken care of.

Thank you so much for all your input. My heart grieves as I read these things because the Spirit that is in you is the same Spirit that is in me. I know these things are true. It has been so difficult to bear up under the "authority" that I'm been under, since the pastor and his wife are long-time friends of ours. I see an influence coming from another local pastor who is very authoritative and controlling. It breaks my heart to see my pastor/brother/friend change and adapt many of the staunch beliefs of the other.

I have been hoping for understanding and reconciliation for over a year now, and have been very hesitant to move on without waiting on the Lord to see what He might do. I don't want to leave before the blessing comes, but will there ever be a change? I don't know. Has my usefulness been compromised because I'm sticking around? I don't know that either. But I do continue to do that which God has placed before me, even though it is looked upon with disdain.

I coach girls volleyball at a Christian school and in a Christian club. There have been numerous families touched through my testimony (actually God's testimony of what He can do in a person's life), and I have poured my life into these girls to encourage them in their walks with the Lord. Many who are involved do not follow Jesus, and it's been a wonderful time to share of His love for them and to exemplify the freedom in my life that comes from forgiveness of sins, as well as the hope I (we) now have of living in the presence of God forever because of what Jesus did on the cross for me (us).

The biggest problem is that the pastor does not want me to be coaching when I should be there at the church being available to attend all the meetings that go on there. We are a very small church (approx 50-70), and have something going on almost every day/night of the week. The focus is on drawing people in to be discipled, but there is no outlet to reach out to seek and save that which is lost. Yes, church is for the equipping of the saints - but to do what? To sit around with one another and deny the effective power of the Spirit in our lives to effect the world around us?

There are so many facets to this entire situation that it would take days to lay the entire thing out. Also, this is all coming from my perspective as well, for whatever that's worth. I've been frustrated with many things of late. This is only one or two of them. but, they continue to add up - one after another, and the direction I see the church going is not that which God has placed in my heart. I want to follow Him and His guidance in my life. Everything the two of you have said thus far is in agreement with the desire within me. My main concern is for the people left behind. If we did leave this church to attend one in the next town (which seems to be full of life in worship and actions) what will become of them?

I feel like I'm rambling. There's a lot in my heart. But, I do want to thank you for responding. You taking the time to do so really blesses and encourages me. Continue to bless the Lord!

Thanks!

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

caddsgn,

So sorry your mom died. Between that and what you are describing with with your pastor, it sounds like you are under quite a bit of stress. I am not sure how much advice you want vs just wanting an ear to listen. So, tell me if I am out of bounds. Many of the people on this board have been through similar experiences. The easy thing to do would be to neglect your team to gain favor with your pastor. But, sitting around in bible studies and meetings all day is not Christianity. Faith without works is dead. And comming under the authority of someone who is supposed to be a servent of the Lord is not Christianity either. Jesus is Lord. Besides, serving the volleyball team is a God given privelege. My advice is, don't make any changes until things have settled down with your family and your loss. Take one stressor at a time. Keep missing your meetings at the church to coach your kids... In time, you will have the strength and the guidence of the Holy Spirit to make the decision that is best for you. It took me two years to make my decision to leave after I saw things become more authoritarian, because I was dealing with an illness and couldn't handle the stress of leaving the church while dealing with all the health issues. I could not reason with people about why I was leaving. I just had to go. obviously, people who want to have authority over you are not going to bless you on your way out. Many of the people that I cared about are very angry at me right now. The people you care about will make their own choices... they will either accept the authority which will lead to oppression or they will leave themselves. For the people who concern you, pray. But, don't try to influence them as that will make them angry especially if they have already made their decision to come under this authority. OK - now I am rambling... Keep me posted. I feel your pain.

[caddsgn (caddsgn)]

lc_20

Thanks again. Mom's passing is actually a joyous occasion. I'm so thankful the Lord allowed me the privilege to hold her hand as she was birthed into new life! It's really awesome. The problem is all the "stuff" Mom and Dad forgot to take with them. LOL. The phrase, "You'll never see a U-Haul following a hearst" came to reality the next day. I've always laughed about it, but it's really true! Yikes. It's getting me to look at all the "stuff" I have. How important is it?

Back to the subject. Your advice is the same as that I keep trying to give to myself. It's so hard because of the source of the struggle. if was someone we had not know as well, it would be no problem. Our relationship goes back many years, and traverse my wife and my struggling marriage, our divorce, my salvation, and our ultimate new marriage in Christ. It's been a long and painful road to go down. The most painful part is to hear our pastor and wife both say that I "have set (my) hand to the plow and looked backed." Ouch. The implication of that is a depp hard blow to our relationship.

I really appreciate your input and your time you given this. I'm usually the one counseling. Ha! God is good, and He takes care of His own. That's not to say our pastor is way off. He is definitely born again and going to Heaven. No doubt there. Our ideology/doctrine is a little bit different. His "way is right, and to disagree with that is pride." In the end, when all the different denominations and doctrinal differences come together in the presence of our God, none of it is really going to matter. We will not be saying to one another, "See? I was right and you were wrong." The is a diversity within the Body of Christ. "And the eye cannot say to the hand 'I have no need of you', not the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.'" The Lord will plae us within His Body as He sees fit.

Anyway, again, I appreciate your time here. God bless you, and I'll keep you posted how things go. I can almost promise you it will still be a while. We are in prayer and still considering all of this.

Thanks!

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Caddsgn - I am glad you're experience with your mom was so positive. I know what you mean about the junk.

I have been going through the issues around change myself. There is a little book about mice that is very cute and very helpful: "Who Moved My Cheese" by Spencer Johnson. It is a quick ready and I really enjoyed it. The bottom line is that your old church/relationship seems to be gone whether you stay in the church or not. This is what happened to me also. This little book is a great story of human nature and our struggles dealing with change. It is critical to our survival to be resiliant in change. I hope you read it and are encouraged by it. It sounds like you have survived and even thrived in difficult situations before. My prayer for you is that you make choices that provide for your own health, spirit and soul first (as well as for your family) so you will be able to help encourage others.

[caddsgn (caddsgn)]

lc_20 - Thanks, and I'll check it out!

[overseas (overseas)]

Caddsgn, I am so sorry for your (temporary) loss but so glad of your mother gaining Christ ! I pray for you and your family.

I am so hurt of the people approach to 'call the lost to the church' instead of 'church going out for the lost'. I think you do the right thing coaching that team. Your pastor should be happy to have someone out there testifying. God bless you !

And being present to all church meetings does not guarantee true spirituality. Think the other way round. Why is not your church present sometimes at your volleyball court ? If I were a pastor, on Christmas I would have asked you all where do you advise the church choir to come and sing carols for the Lord and evangelise (like to your sport court) ! And people like you should be considered the forefront of the church ministry, not a pain to the church !

I am not flattering you, but I pray that you do God's work under His guidance and find a church that allows lay to minister !

[caddsgn (caddsgn)]

Overseas -
Thank you also for your encouraging words. This is not flattery - just a stark reality of ministry. You, and lc_20 are much appreciated! (even if you are overseas - lol) http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif