Working into a Frenzy [Archive]

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-01-2005, 09:22 PM

The Christian life is all about living in the tension. We have to get used to walking the tight line and not swaying to the extremes as many due. Paul demands that their be a balance of order and excitement in worship.

Reading how the Israelites always yelled, jumped, banged large drums and were prostrate on the floor before Yahweh, I'd venture to say that the Western church is more concerned with having order. I long for what God's people experienced back in the Bible. We leave very little room for God to operate in the service because we're uncomfortable with the fact that we can't control Him and what he might do.
Bringing up the football analogy is a pretty clear illustration of why many non-Christians leave church not feeling any more excited about God than when they came in. Worship can often sound like an uninspired choir concert from 9th grade. It's no surpise that so many in our culture are turned off.
Only by receiving discerment from the Spirit can we make decisions in what's too much. If our worship is becoming a stumbling block to the gospel in our services than Paul states there must be change.
I'm an artist and was once drawing in worship to God, offering Him back the gift he gave me. One of the leaders came up to me and asked me to stop? Sometimes I wonder.

yaakov (yaakov)

03-01-2005, 09:36 PM

That is such a subjective question. I think “too extreme” can only be judged within the context of each person’s congregation. In synagogues that I have attended, playing an instrument during the songs is an example of extreme behavior. However, I have seen Baptist congregations where singing loudly, dancing in the aisles, and screaming praises to their god is considered normal behavior.

I would say that if your minister’s behavior makes you uncomfortable, then it is too extreme for you.

turtle (turtle)

03-01-2005, 09:42 PM

You know sometimes we are even a stumbling block to other Christians in our worship. It is a sad state of affairs. My only question exactly what were you drawing that brought a question to this leaders mind. Or was it the fact he was distracted by its beauty of the art work?

turtle (turtle)

03-01-2005, 09:45 PM

Yaakov,
Good point.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-01-2005, 10:09 PM

I also agree yaakov.

Turtle, I was just drawing the room of people singing and God's spirit touching them. The leader didn't realize that worship is about a genuine, unique expression from my heart. It wasn't 'in-line' or in the 'order he imagined.

And just because some or many members in a congregation feel something is too 'extreme' does not necessarily mean that it isn't what the Spirit of God wants to bring to His people.
That's one of the reasons the Gospels spend so much time focusing on the Pharisees' response to Jesus.
The Lord knew that this same attitude would be the hinderance for His church also.

We can pretty easily get self-absorbed and always get caught up in asking "is worship meeting my needs, is the church meeting my needs, maybe I should go find a better church for me? (because of course, church is all about us). Not.

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 01, 2005)

turtle (turtle)

03-01-2005, 10:35 PM

Jeff_P,
very good response. No i wouldn't have had a problem with your drawing but I had to ask.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-01-2005, 10:45 PM

turtle- respect.

peace_that_passes (peace_that_passes)

03-02-2005, 11:48 AM

Church, worship and extremes. These are cool topics. What is the drawing that you are referring to?

God likes all kinds of worship. He does say to lift up 'holy' hands without wrath or doubting, though in the Bible. I might dance before the Lord with all my might but it would definitely be fully and modestly clothed.

Church is like any relationship it is a two way street. We are there to have our needs met and to meet the needs of others. To learn, to worship, to love and be loved. To reach out to the poor and to visit those in prison. To sing His praises and to gather in the congregation to clap our hands unto Him and be washed with the Word.

Ohhhhh yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Use our gifts, tithe, increase in faith, pray for the sick and more and more and more.

"Love must be sincere."
And,"They that worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth".

I am going to run outside and make a joyful noise with a drum, a symbol and a harp.
If the police come I wonder if that would be considered persecution by the Lord and then I would be rewarded?

Peace Out
(He gives us a peace that passes, surpasses all understanding.)

carlota (carlota)

03-02-2005, 06:45 PM

Hi All,

It seems that people have been using their bodies to connect to the spiritual for years. Holy Rollers actually rolled in the aisles of the church when the spirit took them. Quakers quaked, shakers shook.

I had the pleasure to see a Sufi dance in Egypt and like the whirling dirvishes in Turkey, the Sufi's play instuments, dance, spin, sing and the whole thing builds to a crescendo that is really powerful and amazing. The Sufi's were able to share their rapture with the spectators. I have really never seen anything quite like it before or since. Extremely powerful.

Gospel music is another way that people allow the spirit to embody them. Rarely do you see a gospel chior standing perfectly still as they sing. They sway, clap, dance.

Perhaps this is where we get the term "it moved me" or "I was moved by something".

Even in the most traditional religious practices we have movements and gestures, like kneeling (genuflecting), the sign of the cross, bowing, clasping hands together to pray. I grew up catholic and mass was like a low impact aerobic work out (kneel, stand, sit, kneel again etc.)
Interesting

Just had a thought. Perhaps it was the puritanical strain of religious worship that the U.S. is founded upon that made expression of the spirit through the body something "shameful".

(Message edited by carlota on March 02, 2005)

yaakov (yaakov)

03-02-2005, 08:08 PM

Shake, rattle, & roll?

Even in the most traditional religious practices we have movements and gestures, like kneeling (genuflecting), the sign of the cross, bowing, clasping hands together to pray. I grew up catholic and mass was like a low impact aerobic work out (kneel, stand, sit, kneel again etc.)

Jewish practices are quite tame in comparison. During services, we alternate between standing and sitting. No dancing, shaking, or screaming. We once had a rabbi that actually had us sing “Shabbat Shalom” with hand clapping at the end of each service. We did it, but that caused a lot of raised eyebrows. It may be that the lack of physical movement is due to the Shabbat work prohibitions, I’m not sure.

We only have a choir during the High Holy days. They dress in white robes, but they don’t dance, clap or sway either. We really don’t get “spiritual” with dance, we get spiritual with our minds.

To any Christian, I was just thinking about your “clasping hands to pray” movement. We don’t do that because we are always holding a prayer book. What do you do with your prayer books when you have to clasp your hands? Do yall put your books into a shelf beneath your pews? It seems like it would be really noisy (all the paper rustling) and your preacher would have to keep pausing so everyone can find their place after the clasping is finished. How do yall handle that?

Also, do you clasp your hands when you are sitting, kneeling, or standing? Is there a normal part in your service when you clasp your hands? Does everyone do it in unison, or is it left up to the individual when to clasp?

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-02-2005, 08:50 PM

Maybe in services NOW Jews sit and stand. But that's our whole point: the contrast of how David & God's people worshiped in the Psalms and throughout the scriptures to our moderate constrained traditions today.

The Western world comes from the Greek train of thought known as Dualism, which means the body and soul are seperate not effecting one another. This is not a Jewish or Biblical idea at all.
The scriptures teach us a wholistic view. That's why demonic spiritual afflictions manifested in physical problems (Deafness, seizures, bleeding, etc.).
It's completely unscriptural to say that something can only move our mind. Our bodies should express what is going on spiritually in our hearts.
Bridge this concept to any other area of life. Lets say in marriage, we believed we didn't have to do anything external or anything extravagant to show our spouse we loved them. 'As long as you both know in your minds that you love one another, that's totally fine and the marriage will flourish (let's see how long that relationship lasts, lol)

Yet, we bring this mentality to Yahweh Allmighty! Friends, we have to break out of our Western rationalism. If a person is showing such limited expression on the outside, you have to wonder how much REALLY is being moved in the inside.

(We bring our heart's issues directly before the Lord and pray for one another 1-on-1 the last 20 min at my church. We don't clasp our hands or use prayer books to answer your question. The model we see throughout the Gospels is Jesus laying His hands on whoever He prayed for. We lay our hands on one another's shoulder after asking them if they're comfortable with it. )

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 02, 2005)

turtle (turtle)

03-02-2005, 09:20 PM

Wow!!!
Alot of interesting answers. Is there any form of worship that you feel is maybe too extreme. Have you ever seen Karen Wheaton on christian tv. I actually seen a group like what is seen on their worship service. Would even pencostal think that is too extreme or more extreme the better. Is there a limit in your own mind of spiritual expression?

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-02-2005, 10:20 PM

There are definite extremes. I'll lay out some principles that I adhere by for worship.

First worship is subjective to the values laid out in scripture: encountering intimicy w/God, aiding to promotion of the Gospel...

We have professional dancers in our church that yearn to dance as worship. Though we do not want to have that be a stumbling block to the gospel for visitors. As a result, we have a small assigned space near the side of the stage where they can worship. They're not flying everywhere and nothing looks weird. (We have a large 3,000 capacity auditorium though, they get hidden pretty easily). It's a balance of expression and order that Paul says we must have; This is key.

Worship is not a “spectator sport”. The singers and musicians during worship services are not there to entertain us but to lead us in worshipping God and into His presence. This is why you may see people with their eyes closed and their hands raised. They are participating in and not just watching worship. Worship, however, is more than just a 'sing-a-long'. It is coming into contact with the living God. Expressing our thoughts and feelings to Him in song is simply a vehicle towards that end.

We must ask ourselves: Is the worship culturally relevant?
I understand it's an hermeneutical fallacy to assume that just because it's a certain way in the Bible, that's the exact model for all people for all time. But it serves as a good starting point.
Are we contextualizing our worship so it's genuine and culturally relevant. Our desire should be for people to be able to walk off the street, into our worship service and not feel out of place or like they have stepped back in time a hundred years. We should try to make everything we do and say easy to understand and relevant for a person living today. I love old hymns, and we sing some in our service. But does worship that was relevant to the culture 400 years ago (many hymns were modeled from British bar-songs...Amazing Grace) sometimes become a stumbling block for unchurched people in our culture now?

Worship is about intimacy with God. It is during worship that we come into contact with the living God in a deep and personal way. Worship is when we turn our attention away from the pressures and stresses of daily life, and through song, consider God and what He has done for us. We should try not to hide behind “religious” masks and keep God at arms-length. We come to Him honestly, letting Him see us as we really are, with all our weaknesses, failings and needs.

The Bible teaches that God “dwells in the midst of our praises.” It is during worship that many people actually feel God touching them at their point of deepest need. You may see people with their eyes closed, their hands raised, they might even be crying. God is doing something in them at that moment.
God working among His people shouldn't be something we try to hide from seekers in our congregation. A real God actually touching people is what they're longing and looking for.

Staying around these principles, I believe most churches will experience God more, not seem 'weird or 'religious' and attract unbelievers to showing up and seeing what God's doing. Sounds like Karen Wheaten falls in the 'entertaining' extreme I mentioned (I've never seen her, I don't watch TBN).

yaakov (yaakov)

03-03-2005, 12:42 AM

jeff_p

You don’t use prayer books?? How is that possible? This means that you can’t follow along as the Torah scrolls are being read and you can’t do responsive readings. No books at all?? That is so alien to me.

turtle (turtle)

03-03-2005, 01:46 AM

Yaakov,
I like to respond to your post.
You don’t use prayer books?? How is that possible? This means that you can’t follow along as the Torah scrolls are being read and you can’t do responsive readings. No books at all?? That is so alien to me. Some churches are very formal in worship but pencostal seem not to be as strict in there worship not like presbyterians or catholics.

WE use hymn books and our bibles but some churches use overhead projectors or even computer technology today. projectors give hands to worship. Alot of people still carry bibles and hymn books are left in the pews. WE have response reading in some churches. But it is not a ritual on the order in some church or a habit in the way we preform it. We dont' use written prays usually. We just take time and talk directly to God when we pray. WE thank him for what he has done and even ask him to help with different pray request that are taken. Some churches are more formal in the way they worship and have a set sechudle but i have noticed that majority of pencostal churches seem not to be as formal as catholics or presbyterians or even baptist,

carlota (carlota)

03-03-2005, 02:12 AM

Yaakov,

in a Roman Catholic mass the prayers are learned by heart, no need to read. We read the scritpures and at this point a book would be in hand and we would be seated. The prayer part, which involves hand clasping is done from memory and usually kneeling.

Then, the priest might lead the congregation in some more specific prayers (hands folded together, head bowed) say, for a sick parishoner or peace in the middle east or safety for troops etc. The parishoners simply listen and then say Amen at the end.

Wierd, eh?

yaakov (yaakov)

03-03-2005, 03:51 PM

turtle

Ah, denominational differences, eh? I’ve long since given up trying to keep them all straight.

some churches use overhead projectors or even computer technology today.

I didn’t think of that….how strange.

Alot of people still carry bibles…

Just stuck in their pockets??? Why?

We dont' use written prays usually.

I don’t understand. What does this mean?

We just take time and talk directly to God when we pray. WE thank him for what he has done …

Ah, this is a similarity. We do this too.

yaakov (yaakov)

03-03-2005, 03:54 PM

carlota

It sure is. I suppose it is what you are used to.

in a Roman Catholic mass the prayers are learned by heart, no need to read.

In Judaism, it is forbidden to recite the Torah from memory. When we take the scrolls out of the Ark, the reader is joined at the table by at least two other people that have bibles with the vowels in them. These people are “proofing” to correct the reader if the reader makes a pronunciation error.

Then, the priest might lead the congregation in some more specific prayers (hands folded together, head bowed) say, for a sick parishoner or peace in the middle east or safety for troops etc.

Yeah, the rabbi does that too. In addition to that, a list of the recently deceased is read and the congregation says a group prayer for them. Do you do something like that?

We read the scritpures and at this point a book would be in hand and we would be seated.

How much of the bible is usually read during one of your services, i.e. a sentence, a paragraph, a chapter, or several chapters? Is the bible read in order, including both the old and new testaments during the year?

The parishoners simply listen and then say Amen at the end.

During our prayer book readings, either everyone reads together or we do responsive readings. It is very infrequent for the rabbi to do a solo.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-03-2005, 04:24 PM

yaakov-
In Hellinistic Judaism it was most common for a rabbi to stand and read from the torah and then teach from it. Most Jews throughout ancient history did not have the ability to read which is why oral readings from the priests or teachers of the law were so vital. There were no common printing presses until a few hundered years ago. Therefore most Jews through history never had the chance to own a 'prayer book.'

"Hear, O Israel; HaShem is our God, HaShem is One. And you shall love HaShem your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be in your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up."

I believe your exegeting the scriptures incorrectly if you believe it's forbidden to memorize the Torah. This 'writing of the Law on your hearts' has been a tradition commanded by Yahweh down through the ages.

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 03, 2005)

carlota (carlota)

03-03-2005, 05:00 PM

Hi Yaakov,

I am underqualified at this point in my life to be a spokeperson for Roman Catholicism, as I have not been a practicing Catholic in, oh let's see, close to 12 years.

I had bi-religious parents. My Dad is Danish and had been raised Protestant. My Mom, American, but Italian American and very Roman Catholic. My Dad actually had to give up his religion to marry my mother in a Catholic Church (which my Mom really wanted). My Dad, as long as I have known him has been a devout atheist. My Dad had no problem however with my mother's desire to raise her children as Catholics.

So, I spent my childhood as a good Catholic and then as soon as I went to college and moved from home I adopted my father's "religion".

My memories of church might be kind of fuzzy. A typical Mass would last about an hour. Half of it (or maybe just under) would be a reading from the bible. The other half would be sermon relating to the bible reading, prayers, communion, singing.

At this point in my life I can look back on my Catholic education as having been a good moral compass. I can not, however, defend some of the practices of the Catholic Church and certainly none of their scandals.

I do recall a strong sense of community within the parish, which I imagine is the same in Judaism within the Congregation. The rules and rituals of any religion are meant to unite people, whether it is to recite or read from the holy book or kneel or stand etc. Sharing certain rules, rituals etc, shows unity, sameness, closeness of people. So, while they may be different from religion to religion I think they serve the same function.

carlota (carlota)

03-03-2005, 05:09 PM

Oh, almost forgot...

I didn't adress how the bible passage is chosen, how much of it is read and does it go in order.

Well, let's see. It seemed to me that random passages were chosen from the bible, both old and new testament. The reading would last say, half an hour or a little less (so, a chapter? not sure). I imagine the priest selected passages that were pertinent to what he wanted to talk about in his sermon or vice versa or passages that were pertinent to current events. Probably varies from Parish to Parish.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-03-2005, 05:32 PM

The majority of church services have a few primary values at the foundation of what they do.

-Create a place of worship and intimicy with God

-Teaching and Correction through the application of His inspired word

-Evangelism, God's people are commanded to reach the lost with Yahweh's message of salvation.

-Prayer, strengthening and Building up of God's people.

God didn't lay out a set way for services to be held for all time because he knew different cultures and ages would do things differently so their time with Him was as intimate, relevant and powerfully effective as possible.

We do different things. But those things are all vehicles to reach the end of the principles I mentioned.
Carlota, I wouldn't say religion is all about 'feeling close to other people.' Sounds more like The Lion's Club or a bowling team. Unity is a fruit of us being unified in Christ. People going to church because it's their 'club' or family tradition is one of the things that is killing the American church. I'm not trying to come down on you Carlota, just wanted to clarify that church is about connecting with Jesus first.
And in the words of William Temple, then Archbishop of Canterbury-
"The church is the only society in the world that exists for its nonmembers."

carlota (carlota)

03-03-2005, 05:36 PM

Hi Jeff P,

I never said religion was about "feeling close to other people". I said the rituals and rules of religion serve that common function.
I hope you understand the difference.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-03-2005, 05:51 PM

I understand what you're saying Carlota.
I'm saying the whole point of the rules and rituals has always served the common function of relating with God.
When we are flourishing in our relationship with God, a fruit of that is unity in people.
God told us to love him with all our heart, soul and might.
But what does that look like?
Well,the Law in the OT is God showing the Jews exactly what that looked like in their cultural context. That's why the 'rules' applied to relationships, spiritual practices, finances, cleanliness, sex...everything.

But the rules and rituals common function was always directing people to God and his order of living.

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 03, 2005)

yaakov (yaakov)

03-03-2005, 07:58 PM

jeff_p

Throughout Jewish history, most Jews have learned to read. Education and learning have always been highly prized within Judaism. Are you aware that despite printing presses, to be a kosher Torah scroll, it must be written by hand? I think it takes two years to properly scribe the scrolls. Also, talking Torah was the most common activity throughout our history. In Judaism, reading Torah has never been the province of just the priests. God gave the Torah to everyone.

I believe your exegeting the scriptures incorrectly if you believe it's forbidden to memorize the Torah.

I don’t know what “exegeting” means. However, you may be misinterpreting what I meant. Sure, a person can memorize the Torah. During a sermon, a rabbi can quote from the Torah from memory. However, during the Torah readings for services, you can’t recite the Torah by memory to the congregation, it must be read. A typical reading during our services is about 2-3 chapters at a time. In addition, when scribing a Torah, the scribe must have a kosher Torah next to the new one to copy from. The scribe is forbidden to write a kosher scroll from memory.

That's why the 'rules' applied to relationships, spiritual practices, finances, cleanliness, sex...everything. But the rules and rituals common function was always directing people to God and his order of living.

God’s Laws elevate the mundane to the holy. While gluttony is mundane, kosher eating is holy; sleeping around is mundane, sexual relations with your wife are holy, etc.

yaakov (yaakov)

03-03-2005, 08:00 PM

carlota

Why did you adopt your dad’s religion if you were raised in your mom’s religion, especially as you were so good at it?

An hour service?? Whew, that is short.

I do recall a strong sense of community within the parish, which I imagine is the same in Judaism within the Congregation.

yes.

The rules and rituals of any religion are meant to unite people, whether it is to recite or read from the holy book or kneel or stand etc. Sharing certain rules, rituals etc, shows unity, sameness, closeness of people. So, while they may be different from religion to religion I think they serve the same function.

I guess I can agree with this facet. Judaism’s rules are more to elevate us than to unite us. Uniting is more done with the culture. However, I can go along with the gist of what you mean.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-03-2005, 08:52 PM

Yaakov-
Holiness means 'set apart.'
We strive to be set apart because God is set apart.
We shouldn't strive to be holy because their is something inherently 'elevated,' unique or special about it.
We strive to be like Yahweh in response to our love for Him.

Yahweh's rebukes to His nation throughout the Torah were based on His people missing the point- that it was Yahweh's grace (chesed) in choosing His people out of love that seperated them from the Gentiles and not their sacrifices and rituals.

I think you made the case for what I was saying about most Jews never having a scroll to read from.
It takes years to copy!
Only the religious leaders and very wealthy had scrolls throughout history.
I was more so wondering if the forbiddeness of not reading the Torah was backed up in any commands in Torah or is just a Judaic tradition.

And also if you would please, I still haven't had the opportunity to ask a Jew -
One of the central doctrines throughout the Law is dealing with the problem of sin. Sin always had to be covered (sacrifices).
What do you do now to deal with the primary problem in the Torah and the human race: sin?

carlota (carlota)

03-03-2005, 09:55 PM

Hey Yaakov,

Yes, an hour long service is short. My cousins (who were protestant) attended mass which seemed to last hours (I think it was like a 2-3 hour service) so I was always kind of glad I wasn't raised protestant. That probably sounds kind of bad, I don't mean it as an isult. I was a kid, so an hour seemed like an eternity.

Um, I adopted my Dad's "religion" for various reasons. I did not get a whole lot (spiritually) out of attending mass. I did not simply become an atheist the minute I stopped attending Mass. In fact, it is an area in my life I am still exploring, but I found the Roman Catholic tradition to be empty of meaning for me. I suppose I would consider myself a spiritual person rather than a religious one. I am still searching for an overall feeling of connectedness.

I say I was a good little Catholic because I did what I was told. Followed the rules. Behaved well within my faith, but otherwise I did not really connect with it. My Mom's family is extremely devout in their Faith. My Aunt and Godmother is a nun (I have posted about this before) and I was really encouraged to take part in my faith. When I was a kid I really wanted to be a priest. I used to play "priest" and "Mass" with my sisters. When I learned that women could not be priests I suppose I lost a little bit of my zeal for the catholic Church. That is a small example, but the most explanatory one, of the kind of questions I began to have about my faith as I grew up.

I am not an "angry" lapsed Catholic. I think I just grew apart from it naturally.

About the rituals and "rules" in religious practice. I said they serve the function of creating a unity amongst worshipers, but, of course that is only one aspect of what they do. They also bring one into closer communion with God (if used correctly that is). Originally when I made that comment it was to show a common theme in various religions, so I made a sort of broad statement. I do, however, think that in the face of persecution these rituals and rules that bring unity took on a powerful role in creating clear identity and a sense of safety amongst fellow worshippers.
Isn't culture sometimes created through religion?

turtle (turtle)

03-03-2005, 10:28 PM

AS a believer in any faith are we practicing a faith or a religion? Faith in my opinion is something you believe in. Religion is something you practice like a ritual. If I said you have religion and not faith I would think you practice what you may or may not believe. Not all people who have religion have faith and not all people that have faith have religion.

geokstr (geokstr)

03-04-2005, 06:36 AM

To get back to the topic of this thread:

Turtle wrote:
Sensationalism, Emotionalism or just excited in what you believe in. How far out can minister get. I have witness minister work themselves in a frenzy and question is it emotionalism, sensationalism or just excited about ones faith. We cheer at a football game or at a concert is it to much to cheer for the Lord that we worship. But what really is too extreme?

I'm afraid in many churches it's gotten way beyond that. Here in Atlanta I met the Theatrical Director for a large Baptist church. He was in charge of bringing together the entire production each Sunday - scripts, special effects, music, lighting, timing, everything. It was much more like Hollywood now, he told me. Had to put on a good SHOW to keep the congregation interested and involved. (All they really still needed was a laugh track, in my opinion.)

Is this what Christianity has come to?

carlota (carlota)

03-04-2005, 03:59 PM

Hey Geokstr,

Nice to see you again.

Yes, it seems some churches really do "put on a show". In Brooklyn I used to live next door to a church (not sure which denomination, but it was christian). They were my loudest neighbors. Mass sounded like a party (full band with electric guitar and amplifiers). Shouting, clapping, dancing and (something that was not done in my church when I was a kid) aplauding. One night there was a hip-hop party at the Church complete with screaming kids and police escorts.
I was never too bothered by it (I had other things to worry about in that neigborhood). I'd never thought of it as a tactic to bring up church attendance, or keep people interested, but that makes sense. I think, in the case of this particular church, and others like it in Brooklyn it can also be seen as an effort to keep children and youngsters off the streets and out of trouble.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-04-2005, 06:25 PM

As long as Spirit is in the midst of the church, people can and are focusing on Him - does it matter if there are numerous people serving in the church to get the words for the songs projected on the screens, switch lights to aid in focus and monitor sound boards so the music is as clear and balanced as possible.

The 'show' in most churches I've seen has always added in helping us learn from and experience God.

You can always try to make this case with anything the church uses-
"I mean do we really need music to worship? Shouldn't we be able to humble our hearts and praise Him without all the singing?"

Yes, of course, But the singing does add another level in our worship to Him. So why not use it?

I know it's possible to get carried away. But most of the times it's the misfocus of our hearts and not a result of the production that causes fruitlessness.

turtle (turtle)

03-04-2005, 06:57 PM

What stirs the heart more a roller coaster ride or a quiet walk beside a mountain stream. Both can be enjoyable but do they both serve the same purpose. Does preacher who seem to do a show get the point across as much as the soft spoken ministers? Does the Spirit of God still move as effectively.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-04-2005, 07:15 PM

It's always both/and.

yaakov (yaakov)

03-04-2005, 07:16 PM

jeff_p

Holiness means 'set apart.'

I couldn’t say what the Christian definition is. According to Judaism, holiness means to emulate God.

Obviously, I disagree with your interpretation of Torah, but we have two different bibles. So, perhaps yours says that.

I think you made the case for what I was saying about most Jews never having a scroll to read from. It takes years to copy!

I guess I explained it badly. It takes years to make a Sefer Torah, but non-kosher Torahs can be printed and made quickly. Usually, an individual doesn’t own a Sefer Torah. Also, you can’t carry them around because they have to be housed in an Aron HaKodesh. But, lots of people had the Torah in book form. People read and discuss their bibles all the time.

The meaning and treatment of sin is the primary difference between our two religions. It is beyond the scope of this thread. If you are really interested in the Jewish meanings and treatment of sin, I’d recommend you check out Jewish FAQs (http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm)

yaakov (yaakov)

03-04-2005, 07:22 PM

carlota

I suppose I would consider myself a spiritual person rather than a religious one. I am still searching for an overall feeling of connectedness.

So your Mom’s religion didn’t fit the bill, either?

Does your religious uncertainty cause any problems between you, your parents, and your sisters?

Isn't culture sometimes created through religion?

Sure. Judaism is a prime example. Torah provides the way of living. Judaism is not just believing in God and going to services, it is a way of life. It influences the clothes we wear, the food we eat, our personal relationships, and our art, science and culture.

yaakov (yaakov)

03-04-2005, 07:34 PM

Turtle

Does preacher who seem to do a show get the point across as much as the soft spoken ministers?

What is your opinion of this?

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-04-2005, 07:38 PM

Most people's issues revolve around cultural and personal preferences. Because one is uncomfortable in a particular style doesn't mean it's the most effective manner for another group.

A roommate of mine does hip-hop worhip at a number of juvinelle detention centers throughout Ohio.
God wouldn't surely use this harsh, loud blaring music from the streets for His purposes?
Well, they've seen over 160 kids come to the Lord over the past year and a half.
Joshua House (joshuahouse.org), a young adult service for 18-24 yr olds in Columbus Ohio I attend fuses rock with worship and it's very effective. The band plays near the back of the stage, there's no lights on them except for the worship leader. This is very effective in not allowing people to focus on the musicians, but on the Lord.
Our service has grown to over 800 in 3 years. We have an average of 12-19 people a week stand up and give their lives to Christ.

I've been to so many churches where aside from the teens coming with their parents, once kids leave for college they never return to the church. This population gap of young adults is completely missing from so many main-line denominations.

It's not a show we're looking for - it's relevant teaching for young adults living in a postmodern culture, culturally relevant worship and genuine community with other young adults where we can actually be transparent with one another & the issues of brokenness we're facing.

You can debate what style of preaching, loud, soft or worship is the most effective. But honestly everybody's looking for genuiness.
Especially us younger adults. We were raised in a culture where we can't turn anywhere without someone trying to sell us something in America. Everything's packaged. We're bombarded with so much media that we don't know what to trust.

We're looking for a place where people take off their smiley masks and are real with us. Isn't that what you're looking for?
The 'style' should not be contrived but express that person's own speaking or musical personality. This is the pattern throughout scripture: God working through the particular individual's gifts, quirks, personalities and failures.
I've searched in dozens of churches for this dynamic before finding it. Honestly, many churches do need to change if they want to be effective in reaching a new generation.

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 04, 2005)

turtle (turtle)

03-04-2005, 09:47 PM

Yaakov,
I guess you got me I ask everyone elses opinion but seldom give my own. So here I go with my own opinion. Lets first be reminded of the question.
Turtle

Does preacher who seem to do a show get the point across as much as the soft spoken ministers?

What is your opinion of this?

I enjoy different preaching styles but I have recently come across a group of pentacostal holiness that is different then what I am use to.
Most pentacostal churches I have been in have been very organized, maybe to the point God is not allowed to move in the service. I may be a little conservative in the way I worship because of my baptist background. But I enjoy the music in the pentacostal churches. In the Pentacostal Holiness Church I am attending it is almost like playing music when the preacher preaches except with no musical background. What I mean by this is the preacher tends to raise and lower his voice such a noticable amount either trying to get the people attention or make a point. My husband commitment was it sound like the preacher was working up a frenzy. That is where the idea for this topic came from. Did the message have biblical truth in it yes. But really what concerned me is how it effected the people emotion and not the spiritual side. At one point during the sermon I really wanted to jump up and say Amen because I agreed with the preacher but then I realized I was letting my emotions control me and not my spiritual side. It was like hearing a very good orator. My husband and I both talked about it. Was our emotions due to God spirit moving us. ( the HOly Spirit) or was it really the emotional drum role and the way the preacher preached that caused us to want to shout. I have always been one to get excited about my faith in fact it was hard for my father and mother to keep me under control when I got excited when God was working in my life. So I know there is a distinct difference in man emotions and the spiritual excitement one gets when the Holy Spirit is moving.
I actually like the Spirit to move in a service whether is in program style or not.

Jeff_P,
This pencostal holiness church is an independent one and probably different then the one you are in. Actually I am still trying to learn about the group that the minister associates with. All information I have seen is biblically based but even in independent churches things sometimes are not what they seem.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-08-2005, 05:06 PM

Turtle-
You stated he was preaching biblical truth. Why would the raising of his tone quench the power of God's Holy word?
Yes,there is a difference between spirit, body and emotions.

But it's this idea of Dualism which I mentioned before that is unbiblical.
Scripture approaches the human make-up wholistically.
The inference of Dualism is that the spiritual is 'better' or more 'important' than the physical.
The body and emotions become at the best, a drag, at the worst, 'evil.' ("If we only could get rid of this body, then we would be spiritually so much better off.")

Paul attacks this view. It's why the Greeks didn't believe Paul's words of a bodily resurrection. In their mind, it made no sense to bring back this 'drag' of a body with its hungers and emotions. "How could we be redeemed and free, in a body?"
As a result of this traditional thought of Greek Dualism being inherited by Western thought in America and Europe, Christians have tried to suppress the physical (not having sex in marriage, getting married, watching movies...) in an attempt to becoming more 'spiritual.'
God created emotions in us and called it good.
What is the problem with getting emotional in worship or teaching of God's Word?

I know by crossing over some of the guidelines mentioned through this thread we can allow it to become a stumbling block to the gospel, etc.
But emotion is something meant to be experienced in terms of meeting the Lord.
It seems that you were responding to your emotions, not 'being controlled' by them.

How do we allow ourselves to get emotional when we're in love with our spouse, get an ice-cream cone or our son's soccer team wins; Yet it's out of hand, dangerous, and 'unspiritual' to get emotional when we encounter the God of the Universe that died for us and calls us by name?
I bring this up because in many churches it seems like people become less human when they walk in to the building and 'switch off' the emotional + physical responses they have during everyday life (many of the awesome things unique to their individuality) in an attempt to becoming more 'spiritual.'

We should have some caution in this area. But are we not leaning a little too far in that direction when in sight of emotion in worship or teaching of God's Word, people on this board immediately yell, "They're being controlled . . . cult!

If I gave my wife a gift, looked into her eyes, romantically told her I loved her and she started to cry. Would it be right for me to tell her "Honey, this is dangerous, you're being controlled by your emotions"?
Yet, God has done and given us SO MUCH MORE. In resonse to Him I think we need to show Him so much more.

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 08, 2005)

turtle (turtle)

03-08-2005, 07:47 PM

Jeff_P
Even though what you say is true about our emotions. In fact emotions are a very big part of us. But do you not think we can go to an extreme. Okay a friend of mine has a very loud voice. She has a sweet personality but her voice is a turn off to people instead of an attraction.
What is unusual about the minister who spoke in a frenzy was that my husband is a fairly young in the Lord. For him to even ask about the way in which the minister preached and the fact I even thought the same bothers me. But the thought could of come from the situation we just got out of in another church. Actually that situation actually helped me to stand on the word even more closely then ever in my life.
If you think about the health, wealth and prosperity ministers on tv and how dynamic they are in there speech. That is what causes people to follow them and not searching God's word for themselves or even talking to God themselves. This would mean that people are following there emotions and not the word of God. Even some of these ministers teach the bible but what is the main problem is people are not learning early in their Christian walk to rely on Jesus, but on man.
Othere comments i heard that night after the preacher preached that worked himself in a frenzy were to the fact they wonder why he didnt push so hard in the morning service as he did in the evening service. These type of comments make me wonder if people were looking for the show and not the word of God. What is your thoughts on this. Think about it the woman with a loud voice in the first paragraph is no different then the minister that works into a frenzy sometimes.

jeff_p (jeff_p)

03-09-2005, 05:50 PM

Turtle-
It's always an issue of the heart in the listener.
Granted people have better gifting than others to shed light on the face of Jesus in their preaching or music.
Worship leaders and choir teams can fall into the same trap...leading people into being more interested in the great sound or experience of music. But does that mean we trash dynamic music in worship?

It may be the right decision to leave that church for you. It sounds like the preacher is sounding contrived. I hate this myself. My proffession is being an illustator/graphic designer. So being an artist, genuine expression means much to me.
Preachers trying to sound like 'preachers' and not being themselves rubs me the wrong way.
Though I'm totally supportive of dynamic speaking.

Is the Spirit present in the church though?
Ask the Lord if you should stay.

All I'm saying is that if the Spirit of God is present, the teacher is skillfully handling the Word, being genuine, and you're uncomfortable with the 'style' of it...you can't demand the church to change to make it more comfortable for your taste. And it's also not fair for you to abandon that church family to shop for a church that suits you better. The church wasn't instituted for me or you. It's for God's glory and the sake of serving and finding the lost.

I know there's a ton of churches out there in America. And it's tempting to walk across the street to the next corner. But the church is the place we come to serve, and not be served. It seems like most Christians in America really don't grasp that concept.
We bring our consumer mindsets to church. I see dozens of families all of the time just hopping from church to church, shopping.

I can't picture back in the early apostolic church, disciples complaining about the instruments they used in worship or not really 'liking' Paul's preaching style.
No, they were called to the church by God whether they got along with everybody, liked the style of the group or whatever. And they served and supported that family until death.

Please find a church where the Spirit's working, the true Word is taught, quit dissecting and get your hands dirty for Jesus and the millions of dying people in our culture.

When I take a look at the unbearable needs in our culture; the crisis in our youth, poverty, a fatherless generation, you name it, I ask myself "Where are God's people! Where is the church?"

And I find many of them in buildings nit-picking about whether to use a guitar or organ, or whether people can raise their hands in their service! We need to wake up! Peace.