Are we really born again

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

1 john gives us a lot of attirbutes of a born again christian.
3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for the seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
5:4
For whosoever of God overcometh the world.
5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

First, I think that John was a smart enough man to write exactly what he meant. He said what he meant, and, he means what he said. So, are we really born again yet? Or is there much more to being a new creature.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Aren't we to interpret Scripture by Scripture and within context? Plug those verses back into their context and study the book as a whole & see what you come up with.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Chapter 1
Talks of Christ and his love. As well as repentence. For the jews went by the law and said they had no sin. But he says we have all sinned. And, our father cleanses us of it when we repent.
Chapter 2
Again speaks of repentence. Explains Christ as our sacrifice. Tells to keep commandments. Tells us to love. Watch for antichrist people. Describes antichrist. Speaks of the anointing.
Chapter 3
Talks of the resurrectiion. And, every son of God purifies himself. Says no sin in Christ. Says whoever lives in him sinneth not. Says whoever sins doesn't know him. whoever sins is of the devil. Born of God don't sin and can't sin.
Speaks of love. Without love you are without God. Keeping his commandments and living in him.

It seems to me that we are not quite born again yet. We might be some of those saying Lord Lord, if you know what I mean. I sin everyday. Even though I call myself a christian. But, according to john. If I sin I do not Know God. Maybe, that is why there will be many say unto him in that day. Lord, Lord, have we not cast out devils in thy name, and in thy name done many wondrous works, And, what did Jesus say? Depart from me I never KNEW you.
What if, even though we have power from his Spirit, and, fruits of his Spirit, but, we are the ones he doesn't know because we sin.
It is a question that needs to be addressed and prayed about. I do not want to fall short of salvation.

[doug (doug)]

If we sit still in a room, be still and know..., and see how we can not keep our minds in Christ for one second then we don't need to break the law to see our need for Christ.
Being perfect is not getting to work on time and never making mistakes. By the power of God we can deal perfectly with imperfect people. Being perfect is to love the brethren as Christ loved the brethren if we are a believer in him.

[franklin (franklin)]

John 3

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Thank you guys for your posts.
I think we should get to the place where we are totally dead to sin. Through the Spirit. That way we can be in the fullness of the Spirit. Fruits, and, power, we would be just like Jesus. We would be conformed to his image. We would fill the fulness of the measure and stature of Christ. We would truly be one with him. And, he is one with the father. So we would be one with the father, son, and holy ghost. We would really be his Body. He would be the head of course. We would all be one.
Right now there are way to many divisions for the christians to be one. And, the divisions comes from the flesh. But, what if we mortified the deeds of the flesh. We all could be in one mind and one accord. And, we could have the fulness of the Spirit.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

1 Cor. 3:18
"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are BEING TRANSFORMED into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (It's a process.)

<font color="0000ff">I think we should get to the place where we are totally dead to sin.</font>

We will, when Christ has completed his work in us!

"...he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6

[franklin (franklin)]

I think what is being discussed is getting outside of Christianity and leaning towards Buddhism. Buddhism is striving for perfection in this life. No Buddhist has ever made it, never will and neither will any Christian.

"Be ye perfect..." is an ideal. It was a commandment but an impossibility on our own. Only through Christ's blood can we be perfect. Not in this life, but in the afterlife.

Mormons strive for perfection so that they can become a god just like they believe god was once a man who became perfect.

We need to understand that we are being encouraged in the Bible to strive towards perfection. But no how, no way will we ever make it. None of us. We will all fall short of God's glory.

But if we try, we show our belief in Him and shall have everlasting life. We are saved by faith alone. But if we are not growing in the spirit, not trying to be perfect like Christ commanded us to, then we are dying in the spirit.

If we are not trying, we are dying. Then we are luke warm and Christ will spit us out.

John 3:16 says it very well. That is why it is quoted so often. But the belief has to be sincere. It has to show fruit or it is not sincere. If we are not sincere in our belief, we are lost. Not works. Not legalism. But faith with fruit to demonstrate faith.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

From my own expirience I know if Jesus said to do something he gives me the ability to attain it. A lot of people who I have asked about this gave similar anwsers as you all have.
And, I have read a number of Buddha's teachings and a lot of them follow along with christianity. Of course Buddha couldn't teach about Christ because he lived about 600 years before Christ. But, if he lived in the same time I think he would have been a christian. Because, Jesus talked the talk AND walked the walk.
I do believe we will attain victory not just from sin, but, the desire to sin. Then we will be the spotless church Christ is coming back for. Because, if it is alright for us to sin, why would the Bible say that it isn't. If we could enter heaven with sin. Why would Jesus come to make a better covenant. The jews that followed the law would not need anything new.
Take adultery if you will. I am married, if I look at a woman I am attracted to I have committed adultery already. And, the Bible says no adulterer will enter in. I am being truthful. If we armed ourselves with the mind of Christ we have no sin. But, we all do. Maybe, we aren't where we are supposed to be.
Why would God tell us to do something, and, then not give us the power to attain. All things are possible with God. So why is wrong to think I can overcome sin through the Spirit of God. Not just think about it, but, attain it.

[doug (doug)]

God will perfect us in loving the brethren. If it isn't happening God isn't real in our lives.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

I love people to the best of my ability. But, I do not think I could treat someone lovingly if they did something horrible to me or my family.
I believe we have a certain amount of love. But, it is no where near the fulness of Christ's love. That is what i want to attain. If I had the fulness of Christ's love I couldbe stoned to death and pray for those who are doing it. I could be crucified and pray for those who are doing it. Right now I do not see anyone who is that far along. But, I believe if we all come together and lay aside our differences. We could seek this through the Spirit. Seek and you shall find you know.

[franklin (franklin)]

Don't let all this "annointed, holiness" talk get to your head. That is why I don't heap those appellations on myself. It puts me out of balance. I am a sinner. I accept that. I don't like it. But only Christ is perfect. He showed us how to live. But he knows we can never do the same. If we could we would not need Him.

The only time we were near perfection was when we were born. We have sinned ever since. We will die with sins unrepented for. With sins on our record that we didn't realize were sins. That doesn't make sin ok. But it is a fact.

We need to learn to forgive ourselves of our sins as well the sins of others against us. Like our Father does when we repent. To a human soul, perfection is insanity. Anyone who thinks they have or can achieve it is insane. All we can do is to do our best. That is all Christ expects of us. To do our best.

If we could achieve perfection in this lifetime, why would we need Christ? God knows we are incapable of achieving perfection. That is why He gave us His Son for the world to believe in, be washed of our sins by that belief and enter the kingdom of heaven in the afterlife. Until then we are commanded to do God's will here on earth.

Will we do God's perfect will here on earth? No. And God knows that. If everyone did God's perfect will here on earth, there would be no need for heaven. This would be heaven.

So remember this, you will never be perfect. The more you think you are, the more rationalizing you do, thinking your sins are not sins. That leads to insanity.

We all would like to be perfect. But we will never will. If we were, no one would want to be around us. The world is intolerant of people who think they are perfect. We would be crucified like Christ. The more that we think we are perfect, the more blinded we become to our sins. Someone who thinks he is perfect (Hitler, for one) is insane and is of no use to God.

Joseph Smith concocted a religion borrowing from the majors and adding the heresy to Christians that God was once a sinful man who became perfect. All mormons believe that they one day will become perfect and will create and rule their own planet like our God does. That is heresy, in the fact that they claim to be Christians.

Buddha was a sinful man who gave up all carnal pleasures to meditate and reach nirvana. Did he? Probably not. He did not have a savior. We are blessed living in this time and this place and having a savior. Try the best you can, forgive yourself for your imperfections and others for their imperfections. Ask God to forgive you of your sins and step boldly each day into your new life.

Accept that you will never be perfect. And that you need Christ to keep from perishing. That is sanity. That is God's grace.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Don't forget that as born-again followers of Christ we have a new nature which IS sinless! Christ's righteousness has been credited to us!
The sin comes in the flesh and we will be struggling against the flesh until it is destroyed. I look at it this way: because I am covered by Christ's blood, I am characterized by righteousness; whenever I sin it is out of character for me! When you are not saved, you are characterized by sin; whenever you do righteousness it is out of character.
Jason, that is why the Scriptures you referred to about adulterers, etc. not entering heaven don't apply to believers even if they have committed adultery,etc. The sin is no longer their identity, Christ is! Praise the Lord!!

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Thank you again for your posts.
John 8:34-36
<font color="ff0000">VERILY, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, WHOSOEVER COMMITTETh SIN IS THE SERVANT OF SIN. AND, THE SERVANT ABIDETH NOT IN THE HOUSE FOR EVER: BUT THE SON ABIDETH FOR EVER.
</font>
Now, we know we sin. So according to Jesus, we are the servants of sin. And, you know we can't serve two masters.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Now Paul was talking of himself and the other christians there at that time. And, surely Paul wasn't a liar. He said they HAD crucified the flesh. Maybe that is the reason for such a big difference between them and us.
You can read about the apostles in the Bible and see that they were conformed to the image of Christ. When their shadows could heal. When people died for lying to them. When they could be stoned and get up and walk away. It is untruthful to say they weren't more conformed to Christ than us. And, maybe being dead to sin through the Spirit is what makes the difference.
Paul clearly stated that they had crucified the flesh. Which would lead me to believe I could as well. If I seek the Lord he will show me. I have his Spirit. And, it is only through his Spirit that this can be done.
Franklin, why do you not believe we can attain perfection through the Spirit of Christ. Even though the Bibles says we can. Why would the Bible say things that weren't true. If Jesus said to be ye perfect, why would he say that if we couldn't be? Was Jesus a liar? Would he falsely lead us to believe we could be perfect, without sin? I don't think so. All things are possible if you only believe. If you do not believe you can acheive perfection through the Spirit of the Lord. Then you won't. But, if I do, and I am faithful in my seeking. I will. Anyone who believes they will. Truly believes. They will. And, anyone who doesn't believe and seeks it won't. And, again, it will only be done through the Spirit of Christ.

(Message edited by jason stone on November 19, 2004)

[little_one (little_one)]

Jason,
What are you looking for? To not sin in the flesh anymore? If so that will never happen. If you have the Spirit of God in you then you have already defeated sin. Peter and Paul were able to heal not because they didn't sin any more in the flesh, but becase they had the Holy Spirit and they were chosen vessels by God. They were born-again.

Peter, even after he was born-again, had a problem with preaching/associating w/Gentiles. God had to correct him and even Paul confronted him. That was one of Peter's weakness in the flesh, but that in no ways meant that he was not born of God.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Thank you Little one for your post.
I just understand why people think Jesus would tell us to be some way that we can't possibly be. To me that is a wrong way of thinking.
If being perfect is only an Ideal. Why not being saved all together. Why do people try to put limits on God's power. He said he could cleanse us from all sin. Not just what we repent of, but, all sin. That would include any sin or sinful desires we have.
There is so much doubt and unbelief in saying we cannot be perfect through the Spirit. If we are dead to sin we are perfect. Christ was dead to sin, there was no sin in him. We then being christians having his Spirit should also be able to attain it. If you only believe ALL things are possible. I believe I can become dead to sin through the Spirit of Christ. I truly believe it. And, I look to attain it one day. I hope some of you will to. Not everyone will. Only those who believe they will.
Answer me this. When you plant corn. You have a seed. It dies to bring forth life. And, life more abundatly. Picture the Church as the seed with Christ's life within it. When they were martyred they were planted. The life within them came out into another manifestation. All through history the Church has been carrying the life through the stalk of the corn.
Then you have branches of the stalk. Which are different denominations from the church. You come down through time till now. A little tassle appears. That is a manifestation of life. Hence the church started speaking in tongues and signs and wonders again. But, it is still not in the form of the original.
The corn within the ear. That is in the form of the original. But, it is multiplied. Life more abundantly. Once it is in fulness. It can be harvested. Day of redemption.
Now, would a farmer pluck the ear of corn before it is ready? No. So why would Christ redeem the church when it is not in the fulness.
Mind you I am not talking about the natural body being perfect. In other words immortal or incorruptuible. That happens afterward.
So we cannot expect Christ to redeem the church when the church is not ready. We must be dead to sin to be in the original form of what died in the beginning. Christ.

[little_one (little_one)]

Jason,
Statement:"I believe I can become dead to sin through the Spirit of Christ"
Yes, you can become dead to sin if you are born again. Read Romans 6:1-4 You can only see this through a spiritual eye.


Now about your plant/seed. you lost me on that one. Let me say this, the "church" is the Body of Christ. There are no denominations in the church according to the Bible. Second, Christ has redeemed the church which is the HIS body. Why? Jesus said that HE finished the work given to HIM by the Father(John 17:4). The Apostles confirmed this.(Gal 3:13,1 pet 1:18).

Why did Jesus die? He died for our sins and that by faith in HIM we might have eternal life. You can't be perfect unless you have Christ. It is not because of us, but because of Christ that we are perfect; not something that we have or can do.
What we need is faith and the Spirit of God living in our mortal bodies.

It seems to me that you are trying to work to become dead to sin. Instead of working to be dead t sin, work to live in the Spirit. By living in the Spirit you will take care of being dead to sin.

I hope my post enlighten you.

[franklin (franklin)]

Give it up. Only Jesus is perfect. You will never reach Jesus's perfection. We will all die as sinners. If not, why would we need a savior?

If you think you've gotten rid of the sin in your life, there will be sin you don't know of, but God does. And even then you will still be carrying around the sin of pride. God knows the human spirit and it's failings better than we can ever imagine.

Here's the deal. Are you ready? The only time we, as Christians, will be free of sin is when we stand before God on judgement day and all of our unrepented sins are read to us. When we are held to account, we will point to Jesus as our savior. Christ will acknowledge us and then and only then will our sins be washed away. Then and only then will we be perfect. Then we will enter heaven.

Being born again means that you are at your starting point of your spiritual journey. Spiritual growth. Unfortunately the maximum of 120 years God give us is not long enough to make a whole lot of progress.

If Peter was perfect, why would he ask to be crucified upside down? He was a very humble man, as we all should be, who thought he was unworthy to be executed the same as Christ.

Trying to attain perfection in this life is nearly the same as believing that you can reach a point known as the horizon. The true tenants of Christianity proved over the years as the apostles grew in Christ, that they did not achieve perfection, but tried to attain it.

Much like the enlightened geographers and explorers of the 15th century discovered the Earth is not flat, the Apostles and followers of Christ died not perfected, but achieving a new level of spiritual growth.

If man is able to achieve perfection in this life, his mortal body could not handle the splendor and radiance because of our flawed bodies, corrupted with our past sins would hinder us, if anything. Paul said (paraphrase): I wish to be perfect, however this earthly tent holds me back (referring to his mortal body).

So, as a Christian, reaching perfection is only in the future for us. Not in these bodies but in the afterlife. Until then do the will of God the best you can. That will strengthen your faith everyday. We are saved by faith alone, not works, lest any man boast.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Thank you again for your post. I appreciate each one of you for giving your time and thoughts.

There are quite a large group of christians who are seeking this. They are not in one church or denomination. just a few here and there that see we can attain it.
If the Bible says we can be perfect and we should be perfect. It was Jesus's own words. Why do you doubt? Why can't you believe? There is no scripture to justify us sinning after we are born again. The Bible plainly says if we are born again we do not sin. So if we sin we are not quite born again.
Did Jesus himself not say we must be born again? Doesn't 1 John say if we are born again we do not sin? Why is it so hard for some people to understand? I have had many discussions, and, heard many messages that taught this. One church is devoted to this. They have been established since the early fifties. The pastor preached for fifty years believing just like you guys. When one day while preaching the Spirit showed him something. All that time we thought we were in Jesus. We thought we were making up his body. But, there is no sin in Jesus. So how could we still having sin be in Jesus who has no sin.
It is impossible to be in one with no sin and us still have sin. If we say we are in him, and have sin, we are saying there is sin in Christ.

When we are born again are not supposed to be in him? Again, I say, if we have sin we are not in him. And, we are not born again yet. We have the ability through the Spirit to be dead to sin. But, we do not have enough faith to truly seek it. We see everybody else say they are christians, and, still have sin. So we just go along with them. The only reason it is not possible is because you think it is not possible.

Look at this website and you will see someone else who believes.
Overcoming sin: Can christians be perfect, sinless,and holy

[doug (doug)]

Jason, you say
<font color="0000ff">I believe I can become dead to sin through the Spirit of Christ. I truly believe it. And, I look to attain it one day.</font>

little one, you say
<font color="0000ff">Instead of working to be dead t sin, work to live in the Spirit.</font>

Salvation is not something we attain nor a work but an agreement that your inner man makes in your spirit.
If you have the wonderful salvation Jesus died to give you than you can face truth because you are not condemned nor do you condemn. When you stand back from your self and like Paul see that "it is no longer I who sin but the sin that is in me" than the spirit of truth can heal you.

If you confess your sin he is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse you of all unrighteousness.

I used to eat and when I wanted to stop I couldn't because I did not have self control but was being controlled by another self. Afterward I would feel stuffed and uncomfortable. I would confess to another brother that "I ate too much" and some would say I was too skinny and it was OK. One brother asked me why and told me that I was confessing the wrong sin.

One day I stuffed my face. I thought of the scripture that if you confess your sin God will forgive and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. After stuffing my face I thanked God for forgiving and cleansing me of eating too much and asked him to forgive me of my unbelief.

God was then able to speak to me. He said that he never made a law on how much was too much but the reason I had guilt was because I was using food as an escape. I never had that desire and inability to stop eating after that except once when I drifted from the foundation of the apostles.
I spent almost $2,000 on collectables when a friend I called a brother in Christ, who had 4 children, couldn't afford to send his kids to the dentist. I realized If I have the things of this world and don't show compassion on my brethren, How can the love of God be in me?

With the exception of that, whenever I had that urge I would start to think of things that were bothering me and face them and the urge went away. That is called walking in the spirit.

Christ came to free us from sin and it is possible to live this life without sinning but it is a battle of awareness, understanding, godliness with contentment, I.e. overcoming by the word of our testimony, the blood of the lamb, and not loving our life (our lower nature, animal centered on evil's traumas, creature of environment life) even unto death. To deny that is in my mind to deny that Christ came in the flesh. Accept no excuses.

(Message edited by doug on November 20, 2004)

[franklin (franklin)]

Jason, so if you become perfect, would you still need Christ?

Do you still sin? If you do, then you are saying that you are not born again, according to what you are saying.

And if you are not born again then you can not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So what it seems you are saying is that you must become perfect first, to become born again.

If that is the case then none of us are saved or will be saved. I don't know you but I know man in general. You will never be perfect in this life.

What you are doing with this line of reasoning is turning the doctrines of Christianity upside down. You think you can work yourself to heaven. That denies the need of Christians for a savior.

Christian doctrine is that man will never be perfect and because of that fact we need a Savior. Someone who will profess our name to God.

Salvation is by faith, not works. Trying to achieve perfection is works. Christ changed all of that by His coming. Man was no longer tied to legalism for salvation.

What you are suggesting is legalism which is the opposite of Christianity. You believe to be saved. Your belief is manifested by your obedience to God. But it is not entirely depended upon it. Trillions of men have tried, since man was created, to be perfect, and all have failed. Only Christ is perfect.

Are you saying that you could become perfect like Christ? If you are then that is out and out blasphemy. Give it up. There is a God. And you are not Him. God has one and only one Son of God. And you are not Him either.

If you could become perfect then why would you need a savior? Please answer.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Christ is to be the first born among many brethern. So yes, we will be sons of God. We won't be the saviour. We won't be the head. But, we will be sons.
I am not talking about anything we can do in the flesh. That s impossible. But, I am talking about doing something in the Spirit. It is not what I can do on my own. But, what God can do through me.
I need a saviour because I can't do it on my own. You do you understand what I am saying. There is nothing I can do of myself to be perfect. But, I have the Spirit of God within me. The Bible says to mortify the deeds of the Body and ye shall live. Why would it say to do that if it were not possible?
And, does it mean we want live if we don't? I don't want anyone to come short of salvation. Men have been putting their own ideas and suggestions into what salvation means for hundreds of years. And, you know natural cannot understand spiritual. All these interpretations come from man's knowledgde, so they are fallible. When a man says you can't be perfect through the Spirit. He is not agreeing with the Bible. Once that has been taught for hundreds of years it is accepted as the norm.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Ephesians 4:12-13

FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY.
TILL WE ALL COME IN THE UNITY OF THE FAITH, AND OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD, (CATCH IT NOW) UNTO A PERFECT MAN, UNTO THE THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULNESS OF CHRIST.

PHILLIPIANS 3:15
LET US THEREFORE, (CATCH IT) AS MANY BE PERFECT..

COLOSSIANS 3:5
MORTIFY THEREFORE YOUR MEMBERS WHICH ARE UPON THE EARTH;

Pual doesn't say anywhere that we could not be perfect. Neither did Christ. As a matter of fact, Christ told us to be perfect. When you say you can't that undermines Him and His words.
Paul told us to kill the deeds of the body. Which means to crucify the flesh. We are supposed to be dead to sin if we are born again. If we are not, we are not quite born again. The Bible backs it up. Nowhere does it say that a born again son of God will sin. Somewhere along the line man has interjected his own opinion in. Man's ways are not God's ways. So when man says something completely oppisite of the scripture, what does that say about him.
There are to many verses urging us to be dead to sin. Which is being perfect. Nowhere does it say I can't. And, like I said. My saviour told me to be.
Christ wants a church that is holy and unblameable to present himself. So he gives all who believes the power to become so. But, when man teaches othes they can't, they are causing a stumbling block to those they teach. Because people won't believe they can be. So they won't seek to be.

[franklin (franklin)]

Well, what I do know is that I am born again. I listen to the Holy Spirit, not man. I am still a sinner. I came to God the way I was. Didn't wait until I was perfect.

But I am spiritually growing, and slowly but surely giving up the ways of the flesh. I am secure in that knowledge that I am saved. I am secure in the knowledge that I will never be perfect. Secure in the knowledge that I am not God. God knows me and blesses me.

Does that make me better or closer to God than others? No. I'm just going to a better place when I leave this world.

You on the other hand say you are not born again. You say you won't be born again until you are perfect. You will always question your salvation. You will always have doubt. satan will always torment you with the accusation that you are not perfect enough. You have created your own hell on earth. Doubt about your own salvation.

Why do you reject the validity of John 3:16? Was John lying to us? Is John 3:16 in error? What is your explanation of John 3:16? What does it mean to you?

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

I don't think I am fully born again. I believe I am in the process of being born again. Kind of like a gestation period. I have life in me. I am sustained from it. But, when I am born again it is something different. I am truly a new creature. All things have passed away and become new. Now that means all. Not just, i don't cuss anymore, or drink anymore. Those things are good and a step forward. But, when I am born again, I will truly be a new creature.
I do believe in John 3:16. I also believe Mark 16:16-18. I don't need to give an interpretation. You give me an explanation, who are the ones who will be saying Lord Lord. Now they cast out devils. And satan can't cast out satan. So they done it through the Spirit. They also consider Christ to be their Lord.
So they believe on the Son of God. They have signs following them. A sign which can not be done by satan. Casting out devils. But, still they cannot enter in. Christ says he never knew them. 1 John says if we sin we do not know him. What if even though i love him. And, i have his Spirit so that I can do signs. I still have sin and he won't Know me.
If Christ said to be ye perfect. He was telling us to be that way. And, he said how could we love him and do not the things he says. I have got to give it all I got. Believeing I can attain it. And, trying to attain it.
You say you listen to the Holy Spirit, not man. Then how come you gave a man's interpretation of Mark 16?

[franklin (franklin)]

So, any interpretation you give of scripture is not man's interpretation? How can you interpret perfectly and I can not?

Romans - Chapter 3

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?


Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?


Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)


Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?


Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


Rom 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.


Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[zaz (zaz)]

I think a little study about salvation would help.

When we believe on Jesus Christ and His free gift of salvation by His death on the cross, the word of God says that our sins were removed... as far as the east is from the west. Into the sea of forgetfulness. Christ's sacrifice paid the price. In Full. Completely.

The bible talks of us become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus... this means that if we ARE IN CHRIST, Christ's righteousness is applied to our account. This doesn't mean that WE ARE ACTUALLY RIGHTEOUS... we just look that way to God, because the righteousness of Christ Jesus has been imputed or applied to our account. When God looks at us, He sees the righteousness of Christ Jesus. We appear to be pure due to Christs righteousness being applied to our account.

We can't earn our salvation; it is a free gift from God. And we can't keep our salvation by "being good". The process of sanctification means that as we abide in Christ, He abides in us, and we are continually on the journey of becoming holy (set apart). This journey, of course, just like our complete physical healing, will take place when we leave this place and walk through the pearly gates. This is when we become truly holy... and not before.

As long as we're here on this earth, we will fall short. And falling short means <u>falling short</u>. Period. Our attempts at being a better person are noble and should be a part of our Christian walk, however, as hard as we try, we will still fall short.

This is the reason that Christ died. We cannot do it on our own. We still fall short of the glory of God. And the wages of sin is death. So we all deserve to die, but Christ stood in our place and paid that price. As a believer in Jesus Christ, our sins are washed away. Past Present, and Future.

[franklin (franklin)]

Thanks, zaz. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

thank you for your posts. May our Lord bless you.

We cannot overcome sin alone. I have never said we could. I said we can through Christ Spirit. He told us to be. If you want to be disobedient that is your business.
Paul also taught us to mortifu the deeds of the body. Would he teach it if it couldn't be done?
Oh ye of little faith. Do you not believe our Lord is capable of crucifying our flesh with his Spirit. Is our flesh more powerful than His Spirit? We have His Spirit. Through that Spirit we can kill our flesh. I don't have any scripture that says we can't.
When you believe you can't, then you lack the faith to already. You are already defeated. If you only believe all things are possible.
You may not want to strive for perfection. That is fine with me. But, don't tell me I am wrong for believeing the words of our Lord.
And, for wanting to follow the teachings of the Bible. If you don't find it necassary, fine. But, I do.

[franklin (franklin)]

We want to strive for protection, just as much as you do. But we understand that man will never reach perfection.

On our spiritual journey, ever walking closer to God, we are always traveling towards the horizon. Surely that must be perfection. Surely, that is where God is.

Then when we finally get to that horizon we find that it is not perfection and we don't see God. All we see is another new horizon far, far away.

So we start out towards the new horizon.......
until our bodies run out time. Then when we pass into the next life where we find perfection. And we see God. Only God is perfection.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Jesus prayed that we would be one with him. As he was one with him. And, that was before he was crucified. So that lets me know that I can be one with him by being his body. And, it is not after death.
We have a circumcision made without hands. That is putting of the old man of sin. That is the seal of our covenant with Christ. If we still have sin we have not put off the old man of sin. So we are not sealed.
Before Joshua could possess the land. They had to circumcise the ones born along the way. They had to do that before they defeated the enemy and possessed the land.
Our land is our body. Our enemy is death. We can't possess our land and defeat our enemy until we have put off the old man of sin.
The day of redemption is the day our bodies are changed. They will be like his body. And, we will have no more death. But, before we can expect our body to be redeemed. We have to be sealed in the covenant of Christ. We do not do it with our natural flesh. But, by crucifying the works of the flesh.
Until then I am afraid I am not quite sealed to the day of redeemption. But, by the grace of God he will lead me to crucify my flesh that I might become one with his body. That when the head comes to the body. Or the bridegroom to the bride. I will be ready.
I appreciate your thoughts. Each and everyone of you. May God bless you.

[franklin (franklin)]

Here is what a mormon posted on the mormon thread:

Anonymous (65.54.97.191
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 5:07 pm:

"In response to how the LDS church believes that they can become gods: Our Father in Heaven, or God, did not just appear one day with all the powers and knowledge and perfection that He posseses. He gained these things through a very long process...learning and progression have no end, remember. Everyone whom our father in heaven has created (evryone) has the ability and potential to become like Him: perfect and all-knowledgable. Like I said, it is simply a process, a journey. I believe that we can all become gods in some day and at one time...governing our own children and creating our own worlds and teaching THEM to strive to progress to eventual perfection. God's whole Plan is an eternal round, not a line: one god, one world, one judgment, the end. Our whole existence holds a place in a circle of progression and continuation. Our Heavenly Father loves us and does not look down upon us but instead looks at us with a perfect faith and hope that we will choose to follow Him and His son Jesus Christ and eventually become like them, perfect."

Sounds very similar to what you are writing. Just for thought.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

The only difference between him and I is I believe that God was and is perfect. I don't necassarily think he had to overcome anything for he created all things. That is why I think we do have the ability to become dead to sin.

We can't do it on our own. Only the Spirit of God within us. Christ in you the hope of glory. There is nothing in the flesh we can do to overcome the sin. No matter how much we abstain it is still there, and, if we just do it we drown in it. So there has to be a way that we will overcome it in the Spirit. But, if I don't seek it. I will never get there. And, if I don't believe I can. I am doomed before I start.

I do not wish to become a God or anything like that. But, I do see the angle he is coming from. So I will not bash him for it.

[doug (doug)]

Jason
Did you get my e mail?

[overseas (overseas)]

Seems like an analysis of salvation vs. sanctification. May help if you refer to classic studies of good theologians (i.e. evangelical conservative for me). Not necessarily buy their conclusions, but gives you a lot of pro/ contra Bible quotes. Read Hebrews chapter 12 where God punishes his children when they sin; so it is possible to be born again and still sin. Very politely I recommend re-thinking of personal position to Bible if Jason finds simmilarities between Buddha and Jesus. Remember: 99% truth + 1% lie = 100% lie.

[cindig (cindig)]

Sure our human can sin, but God sees his son's blood covering our sins. That is the reason it says we can't sin. The Holy Spirit lives in us and to say we are sinners is to call the Holy Spirit a sinner, we are righteous in God's sight.
If we are truly Christian we won't live in sin purposely. It won't be our lifestyle. That doesn't mean we don't sin but it won't be our practice.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Once we are born of the Spirit we are supposed to have the ability to live and walk in the Spirit. That way we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Either we are not where we are supposed to be or Paul didn't know what he was talking about.
We are to prideful to admit we are not doing what the bible says to do. So we make excuses. Jesus said to be perfect as the Father. In John he asked that we may be one with him and be perfect. It is all through the teachings of the new testament. The only reason we would deny it is becuse we are to proud to admit we are wrong.
The hebrews that couldn't enter in the Holy land didn't becuase of their unbelief.
There are many things people can have. God will freely give them. Knowledge, wisdom, love. Many spiritual gifts as well. But because of their unbelief they can't get them. And, the flesh rises up and tries to discredit the ones who do have it. It is nothing but the devil working through the flesh.

[doug (doug)]

Jason
Welcome back.
Did you get my e mail?

<font color="0000ff">...the flesh rises up and tries to discredit the ones who do have it. It is nothing but the devil working through the flesh.</font>
People make up all kinds of excuses for their sin, they have sympathy for their devil.
Douglas

[overseas (overseas)]

Quote from Jason: We are to prideful to admit we are not doing what the bible says to do. So we make excuses.

This is a very good discussion, it links with sanctification and proof of salvation. To reject or limit sanctification is not a mark of a christian for sure. If we can make excuses for our sins, then we do not qualify for forgiveness of sins, cause forgiveness comes through Jesus blood not by God accepting our explanations. If one has valid explanations for his facts, he does not need Jesus and this is what many atheists hold to.
One cannot hate sin except being born again, one cannot live otherwise than sinning except after being born again. Talking about Joshua times, God told those people two things 'I give you this land' but also 'Go conquer it'; it is the same with salvation, God tells us 'You are a new person' and also 'strive to live the new life'. Joshua started the conquest based on God promise that this is possible.

Thanks Feanklin for your quote from Mormons, very appropriate.

[sharon (sharon)]

Doug... So right, I am a born again and while no one has the power to change that with words or deeds it is within my power to fall, make mistakes and lets face it the devil does not go after what he already owns. While no human could take away what God has given me I can still struggle with satan and grow stronger. Or worse lose to him, for he puts ones hearts desires in ones path as a stumbling block.
Saw you give the satanic pope something to think about, nice. Short and sweet, if I could do that I would probably now get such a backlash of abuse. I have been told that there is a possiblity that he can be reached. I shall have to take short and sweet lessons from you.

[dl1957 (dl1957)]

I liked what franklin wrote:

Don't let all this "annointed, holiness" talk get to your head. That is why I don't heap those appellations on myself. It puts me out of balance. I am a sinner. I accept that. I don't like it. But only Christ is perfect. He showed us how to live. But he knows we can never do the same. If we could we would not need Him.

It has to be true what he says because if we were perfect and without sin and would not need Jesus.

[saved_by_grace (saved_by_grace)]

Amen dl

And that is the very first step for understanding that you need a Savior. It is that step that sets you on the pathway of also understanding that once you have accepted Jesus nothing can separate you from the Love of Christ. You are eternally secure in his salvation. He knew that you and I were not perfect and he only had to die "once" for his sin. If we slip up, we do not fall from grace because he has already covered our sins.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Praise God!

[overseas (overseas)]

To make sure one is really born again is somehow a secondary issue. The prime issue is to believe Jesus is the Christ and he did the redemptive work (1 Cor. 15: 3 that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures). It is ME who believes. It is GOD who declares me right (and born again) based on that. Believing that I am born again does not make me born again (thats autohypnosis). Believing the Gospel makes me born again.

[geokstr (geokstr)]

Personally, if there is such a thing as being born again, I stand here before you now ready to accept that in my life, on only one condition - that I get to breast feed for the first year just like last time.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[overseas (overseas)]

Geo it is not that we do not know ****&amp;crap, it is just it does not amuse us anymore. Pls let us discuss quitely. Thanks.

[geokstr (geokstr)]

Over:

We have had many interesting and informative exchanges.

I have already changed my definition of what I believe in because of being on this site. At least I am open to change of my beliefs, something that you and almost everyone on this board are NOT.

Just in case you didn't know it, this board is owned by a JEW, and it was set up to discuss CULTS. It was hijacked by Christian Fundamentalists to talk about their Truth, post bizarre statements about politics and conspiracies, and to prove that everyone else was evil and stupid, mainly by throwing every quote in the bible at us.

I have never said you or anyone else knows NOTHING. I have actually conceded that religion is necessary for humanity, that there could have been a "creator", that I follow the same commandments 5-10 as you, and that there are a lot of good and intelligent people here.

When it comes to science, OK, I'll say it. At least for the ones I've met, no one knows ****&amp;crap about it. They have faith instead, which is fine with me.

My main purpose in remaining on this board (since my original one about cults was not answered here), is to educate people to the fact that science and the bible are not really at odds. You can still have all the faith you have now, but you also insist on saying that the metaphors and parables in the bible are all literally true.

And if you can't have a little fun now and then, even here, that's not good. Even Jesus went to parties, drank some wine now and then, probably danced sometimes, and I'll bet he laughed a LOT as well. Laughter is one of the most essential emotions, in my opinion. You all take yourselves so seriously here.

I've been called Satan here, and told I work for the Devil. And you can't take a little ribbing?

Lighten up, please. If you no longer wish to converse with me because I made a joke, SO BE IT.

[carlota (carlota)]

I have to agree with Geokstr, yet again. Having also been told I am working for the devil and having taken it in stride I am very surprised by the sudden sensitivity to levity on these discussion boards. What is fair and what is not?
Maybe it would make more sense to chat privately if people do not wish for others, with differing opinions, to participate or simply title your thread as an exclusive one for whatever group you wish to talk with.
Otherwise, this is an open forum and that means anyone who happens upon it (no matter what they believe or feel) has a right to participate.
Geokstr and I fight tooth and nail sometimes, and I know I have offended him but he has never told me to "be quiet" or go away. Nor have I with him.
Let's all take a deep breath......and laugh.

[geokstr (geokstr)]

And one more thing.

Unlike nearly all I've met here, I have actually studied a lot about your side of this story. I was raised Catholic, was an altar boy for several years, went to parochial school, where I learned much about YOUR bible, so at least I don't argue from total ignorance.

I have read a lot on ICR's (Intitute for Creation Science) official site about your beliefs. In researching my posts I have read many other pages on lots of Christian sites.

Contrast that with the people on the opposing team. I have yet to hear anything but the most outlandish and ridiculous statements about natural science, and/or questions indicative of the absolutely total ignorance of what science is and how it works. (Hint: it is not a religion nor is it a cult.)

Have you ever ONCE gone to a scientific site and actually read anything there? Notice I didn't have to say "atheist" site, since the vast majority of Christians, and probably nearly all of the Christian scientists, reject the "young-earth" creation "theory"?

We can make this a serious confrontational discussion if you like. I never run from a fighr.

[doug (doug)]

Geokstr
I read a few scientific books in my day but not in the most recent years. You do not accept my view, and I do not expect you to, as proof that we are all defined from a nothingness which i call the kingdom of God but it is well based in science theory. Notice, much of science is theory. You can disagree but you can't say I don't have science behind the things I contend about.

You were raised Catholic, religious. I was raised the opposite with a bunch of intellectuals and geniuses in a school that taught the religion of evolution and other such nonsense. We were not religious. My family is full of scientists and high achievers. Some of them think they know it all and I know them and their bluff. If I quote a study they question my source as if their journals (and some of my sources are their journals) were any more credible. I've debated them. The stuff I talk about physics is stuff I see for myself, not what someone else has studied. Both ways people believe what they want to believe and I decided to go by what I see for myself. I understand your frustration at people being illogical from the other side of the issue too. I am a genius in logic but in itself is not truth and logic can twist things too.

If you ask me how Noah's ark happened , I don't know? If you ask how I experience and see God, I do know. If you ask about creation science I tell you what I read and someone else says, I don't believe it. No use to argue in those cases. Doesn't make me unscientific.

[geokstr (geokstr)]

Doug:

Sorry but I disagree strongly with you.

<font color="ff0000">"...you can't say I don't have science behind the things I contend about."</font>
I most certainly can and do. Please provide, like I have done many times in the past, cites and sites where you got this "science". The fraud Kent Hovind, anybody named Morris, and the ICR do not count because they do not qualify remotely as anything resembling science.

<font color="ff0000">"...a nothingness which i call the kingdom of God but it is well based in science theory."</font>
Bull. Again, give me references or sites where this so-called theory is propounded, with hard evidence to back it up, not scripture.

<font color="ff0000">"...Notice, much of science is theory.</font>
You OBVIOUSLY did not read the scientific definition of "theory" on the site I gave you. In creation "science", a "theory" has to mean somebody's idea that has absolutely no evidence to back it up, because that's all THEY have to work with, ideas with no evidence.

In real science, the term "theory" means something a whole lot different from that. It's only called that because REAL scientists are not so arrogant that they believe that ANY theory is perfect. But in REAL science, a "theory" actually has to explain all the evidence that is observed, and if any predictions about other things not yet found is proven incorrect, it is either modified or abandoned for a "theory" which does explain the evidence. In addition, other scientists beat the **** out of any theory, until one that explains the evidence is developed.

Note again that REAL science doesn't start with the conclusion and then come up with anything they can possibly find to prove it. REAL scientists look at the evidence FIRST and attempt to explain that evidence with a "theory".

BIG difference.

<font color="ff0000">"...The stuff I talk about physics is stuff I see for myself."</font>
Oh really? Are you a theoretical physicist, or perhaps an engineering physicist? No? Maybe an astrophysicist or an electrophysicist? Gee, not them either? Study quantuum mechanics, maybe? No?

From what I have been able to deduce (I am quite good at logic myself), your field is metaphysics. If you actually SEE anything there, it will be an historical first.

Talk of inner man and the like is not physics.

In any case it is irrelevant and moot. I have already said my goodbyes in another thread, and after I make a few more posts, I am so outta here.

I have wasted a month and a half debating people who haven't got a real argument, unless you consider a miracle to be scientific evidence.

[overseas (overseas)]

Hey guys you started a war here. I UNDERSTOOD GEO JOKE BREASTFED TO BE SEX RELATED (BREAST) AND I ASKED HIM FOR DECENCY. That I called **** &amp; crap and I hold to that. It is very strange to me that Carlota does not see that. My daddy is not a christian but he never liked those sexist jokes. My wife was raised in a non-christian home yet her family never enjoyed sex jokes and mocking women breast. It is common sense not fundamentalism. It is pathetic to equate your sex obssessions with humour. I can show you humor you could not believe but mocking sex is one of the saddest things.
I do not see how making fun on sex helps figthing cults. Actually Geo you can find what you want (breastfed) in the cult called the Family (have you heard of Berg) they do flirtyfishing.
Tell you why you have so many christians on this site. Cause these damn' bloody christians have a faith they hold true. And they fight against error with the only truth they know. And if you consider the stupid christians should be shot OK but until then give them access here.
Carlota we did not interfere with the topics of other threads. It is by the rules of this site to speak to the topic. If the site allowed us to start this thread then you go complain to them.

[geokstr (geokstr)]

Over, if you think that was a sexist joke or humor too vulgar for you then obviously you either don't have television over there or you only watch the blow-dried frauds on Sunday morning.

Frankly, I have not seen ONE instance of humor on this entire site. NEVER, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO. Not a joke, not a pun, not even any wit.

It's even a fake friendliness here. Unless of course you believe that the person you're addressing knows exactly the same verses as you and they mean precisely the same thing to both of you.

<font color="ff0000">"...you consider the stupid christians should be shot OK..."</font>
What a vile accusation, but quite typical of what is all over this site. It gives the lie to your "Christianity". I have never shown the least bit of animosity towards ANYONE on this board or any other board. That's not even in my nature. It is your "good people" who have called me devil (long before I made my joke), and evil, and Satan, and wished for me to die and burn in hell.

I am sorry if I offended you; it was inadvertant. I am from Brooklyn, and that kind of humor is second nature there. Your reaction to it is over the top. Believe it or not, sex IS funny just like any other arena of life.

Some followers of Jesus. I have seen more hatred and name-calling and intolerance and blind bigotry out of your side here than I have seen from any other group of people in my entire life. I find those attitudes far more OBSCENE than any joke about breasts or even about raw sex for that matter.

<font color="ff0000">"I do not see how making fun on sex helps figthing cults."</font>
There are tens of thousands of chat rooms and forums on the internet. You thumpers have taken over one designed to inform about cults and console and help people who have been hurt by them. That's what I came here for, and found nothing but sick people talking NONSENSE.

I've been to many of the threads about cults here. You Christians console by spouting scripture. You inform by spouting scripture. You help by spouting more scripture.

In fact, the things called "cults" here are so inane it's laughable (maybe that's where the humor comes in). I just spent three months intensively studying cults. You haven't even got a CLUE about what they are or how they work. Cults to you are anybody that believes differently than you.

You should really start examining your own behaviors (which you will NEVER do, because your cause is PERFECT, right?) There is a 100 point cult test on this site:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

I just looked at the first 40 points. I find you and the others here fit 35 of them to a "T" (and on 3 of the other 5 I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. (It's OK. I realize you won't ever go to that or any of the sites I gave or quoted; you might have to open your eyes or admit some unpleasant things about yourselves or even learn a little about the 21st century.)

There's an old saying "A mind is like a parachute; it works a lot better when it's open". THAT'S something you and most others here will never understand.

Why don't you start your own FA group (Fanatics Anonymous)? Then all 17 of you can hang there and hate those who believe differently than you in peace.

[overseas (overseas)]

Q: There's an old saying "A mind is like a parachute; it works a lot better when it's open".
Just don't open your head too much cause your brain will fall on the ground.

You people interrupted our disscusion with a post which is off topic even sex related. Sex is normal, but sex obsession needs therapy. Sorry I am not qualified for providing therapy. However you reached your goal: you deviated our topic.

[overseas (overseas)]

Q from GEO: Frankly, I have not seen ONE instance of humor on this entire site. NEVER, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO. Not a joke, not a pun, not even any wit.

I remember great funny stories on this site. E.g. Yaakov story of jews crossing the Red Sea.
It looks like you cannot have fun, not me. So your last hope for humour is sex related. Sad.

[yaakov (yaakov)]

Geokstr

<font color="0000ff">Frankly, I have not seen ONE instance of humor on this entire site. NEVER, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO. Not a joke, not a pun, not even any wit.</font>

No, I can't let you leave without a joke for the road. We Jews have too much humor to keep it bottled up.

Rabbi Bloom from London is visiting two friends in America. One is a priest and the other a Pentecostal preacher. As soon as they meet up, they start to talk shop. Their discussion centres on whether preaching to people is really that hard. They quickly agree that a real challenge would be to preach to a bear and they decide to experiment. Each would go into the woods, find a bear and preach to it.

A week later, they're all together to discuss the experience. Father Carroll, who has his arm in a sling and is on crutches, speaks first. "Well," he says, "I went into the woods, found a bear and began to read to him from the Baltimore Catechism. Unfortunately, the bear wanted nothing to do with me and begun to slap me about. I quickly grabbed my holy water and, the saints be praised, he became very subdued. My bishop is coming out next week to give him his first communion and confirmation."

Reverend Billy Bob speaks next. He is in a wheelchair, with an arm and both legs in casts. "Well, brothers, you know that we don't sprinkle – we dunk. I found a bear and began to read to him from God's Holy Word. But that bear wanted nothing to do with me. So I took hold of him and we began to wrestle. Up and down the hills we wrestled until we come to a creek where I quickly dunked and baptised him. He immediately became very subdued and we spent three days in fellowship, praising God's Holy word."

They both then look down at Rabbi Bloom who is lying in a hospital bed, is wearing a full body cast, is in traction and has IVs and monitors running in and out of his torn body. Rabbi Bloom looks up at his two friends and says, "When I found a bear, I found preaching to him very easy. But Oy Vay, did he get touchy about the circumcision!"

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Very funny!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

When we are born of our natural parents we are made up from two seperate sources. So we have attributes of both father and mother. We can't look like anyone other than them. For their genes and DNA made us up.
When we are born of God who is both father and mother. We are supposed to be in his image. God cannot sin so neither can his Children who are born of his Spirit. It's like saying two white people can give birth to a African American baby.
That is why WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOTH NOT SIN FOR THE SEED REMAINETH IN HIM AND HE CANNOT SIN. We are not understanding the depths of being born again. Once we are born again we are supposed to be one with God as part of his body. We are supposed to be part of the bride tree. Now if God is holy and perfect his children are supposed to be. If the root is holy then the the tree and its branches will be holy also. If they are not they will be hewn down and cast into the fire that burns forever.

[turtle (turtle)]

Jeff_ Stone,
YOu sound more like a pencostal oneness or Jesus Only man. what is your opinion on what a christian is. We are to strive to be Christ like but realize we are only adopted through the blood of Jesus therefor will never be Christ.

[godchild (godchild)]

The Bible tells us we will recieve a crown. Not all the crowns will be the same. But still a crown. We are not commanded to repay God for Christ's sacrifice. We desire to. By giving in love, (which God is) not as a debt being repaid, to others, we are giving that LOVE, to God. Not for ourselves, but for him. So that others can see what we have in Christ and desire it too. If we are not saved when we receive Christ as our own personal savior, but have to become perfect to be saved, then we nullify the sacrifice which Christ made and become accountable for every sin we have committed before and after we accept his sacrifice. Our perfection is not acceptable to God, we are born into sin, (which is our physical death), and there's no other way to get beyond that to eternity with God until we realize Christ's sacrifice is the only acceptable way to God. The Bible plainly states we cannot be saved (have hope of eternal life with God) by our own efforts, no matter how hard we try. We have been accepted when we accept him and our purpose is to share that (works) with others. Why do people go out and work? For what they will recieve from it. That is not the salvation followers of Christ seek. IT IS ALL FOR HIM! If you do not know that, then you do not know Christ.

[turtle (turtle)]

Amen to Godchild post

[godchild (godchild)]

Thank you Turtle, sometimes I feel it is wasted effort to try and explain scripture when people are so tied to notions perpetuated by man. I am still learning myself, and thank God for it. Can you imagine trying to explain it to people who do not worship God? At least these people are openminded enough to realize there may be errors in our understanding, but if we are willing to keep on and not become discouraged, God will be faithful to help us understand. That is another very important reason why we need to understand the completeness of Christ's sacrifice. If we were to die the day, week, or month after we accept Christ and have received the promise of salvation by doing so, by some people's way of thinking, they would not be saved. Can anyone who understands God's love for us think that he could be such an unloving God? I can tell you he is not. By the sheer perfection of him, he cannot go back on his promises to us. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

[godchild (godchild)]

I would like to challenge christians who are unsure of their salvation to search out the scriptures after praying to God for understanding. Think about what has been stated here. Then take a LEAP of faith. Say to God, "Lord, I am looking for answers. If what I have read today is true, let me be willing to accept it. I am willing to take that leap of faith as never before. Help me to just live today as if I fully believe it."
What have you got to lose? If you do not receive assurance in your own heart and soul, You will not be punished. God knows your heart and is just waiting for you to lean on him. I read something recently about the believer's walk with God. Before people accept Christ the bible talks about them stumbling and falling. Once they accept him they will stumble, but not fall. The stumbling is okay, we will all stumble til we meet him face to face. But we will not fall as long as we KNOW he will not let us.

[overseas (overseas)]

Surety of our salvation does not come from evaluation of our daily deeds, not even from the degree our character that has changed unto holiness.

Surety comes from the reality and soundness of our faith in Jesus name (i.e. Son of God and God himself) and accepting the Gospel (as shown in 1 Cor. 15, the Gospel is merely made of historical facts). I said 'accepting' the Gospel cause I wanted to imply Gospel is supported by the testimony of the apostles, not some abstract concept pushed to us.

Surety comes from fulfilling Rom. 10:9. Based on that surety all good deeds and sanctification will flow naturally. Otherwise we are under the law, not grace.

[grace2u (grace2u)]

Amen! I totally accept Christ's all sufficiency to save me! I refuse to put myself under the law since I am fortunate to have a Savior who is so Wonderful!

I take Him at His Word and I refuse to look back or reconsider. All I need is Jesus!

[doug (doug)]

Jason
Still wondering if you read my long e mail that I e mailed again at your request.

Doug

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

Yes I am a Jesus only. And, Doug I read some of it. I am out of state right now and can't check all my messages.
Jesus himself told us to be perfect. Throughout Pual's letters he he is tellings us to be perfect. Not by anything we can do in the flesh. There is nothing we can do in the flesh to make us perfect. But, what is not possible for man is possible with God. He, through the operation of the Spirit will circumcise our old man of sin. Giving us freedom from sin.
Where there is no law there is no transgression. If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Where there is no transgression there is no condemnation. That is why Paul said there is no condemnation to the who are in Christ.
Problem is we are not fully understanding the depths of walking and living in the Spirit. Some say they are but their fruits tell a different story. I am sure when we get anry and talk about someone we don't like we are not walking in the Spirit. Or when we see someone with more than ourselves and within we are filled with jealousy and envy. If we are part of Christ who is the true vine. Then how is Christ's branches bringing forth corrupt fruit? It is impossible.
The reason God created the Law was to make his people perfect. But, if you read read in Hebrews it was not able to fulfill that. So he created a new and better way. Through the Spirit of Christ. The old way was not able to make the comers there unto perfect. But, Christ was able to make them perfect. Over time we have lost the knowledge of this because the christian went after the way of the world. And, through prostituting themselves out to doctrines of men,s knowledge have lost the knowledge of to crucify the flesh.
But, thank God for his sweet holy ghost. Because his Spirit will bring this mystery to our rememberance. And, we can be free from sim becuase sin will have no power over us. We will have no works of the flesh. And, we are not free until we are dead to the flesh. For he that is dead is freed from sin.