Exactly What is Heresy And Your Take on Rebuking and Exposing

[hillbilly (hillbilly)]

Any Thoughts?

[overseas (overseas)]

Great to know people are still interested in judging things and having an attitude towards heresy. If anyone thinks it is obsolete to look for truth and reject heresy because the world evolved to a very nice/ comfortable environment, I can tell you that you go through life either as a missionary or as a mission field.
Some talk of heresy in 'democratic' terms, that is heresy is to depart from the main belief of a certain group of people/ region. Whoever accepts this has to live on moving grounds, because people always change their beliefs according to their purposes. I think heresy truly exists only with regard to absolute/ religious truth. People can have different opinions in politics/ sports etc. and they will not be called heretics. It is only when someone starts to deal with intimate/ sensitive things that make people react and talk about heresy and truth... It is interesting to note that those sensitive subjects seem to be universal (e.g. life after death, religious traditions, heaven and hell).
I believe that heresy is departure from Christian truth as this was revealed in the Bible. Of course we talk about heresy only if wrong beliefs concern the hard core of the Bible; otherwise Christians are free to have their personal opinions on a lot of topics. Interpreting the Bible properly is a separate topic... This departure may have many causes: pure ignorance, tradition, wrong understanding of the Bible, human pride, personal interest and so on.
How do I treat 'heretics' ? Based on their personal involvement (see causes above): there are people that were seducted by cult leaders and are VICTIMS, others are long time EXECUTIONERS (they embraced the error against reasonable proof indicating a different truth). If I talk to victims and they accept to be shown new evidence for truth (like Bible verses they were not shown or not free to read), then I do that with them. If I talk to an executioner (i.o. old time member of a cult), I speak not merely for him (it is very hard to reach such people because they deliberatelly destroyed their mental/ intelectual capacity) but for other people present there: victim mebers of the cult, other people that hang around. In these cases, I try to mix in my message: important Bible statements + proving specific errors of that cult.
One of the Bible's Proverbs (sorry for not giving the reference) says approximately: you should not answer a fool according to his foolishness for not being like him, but you should answer a fool according to his foolishness for not letting him to think he is wise. Maybe somebody can take it from this Proverb.

[doug (doug)]

Proverb 26:4&5
Answer not a fool according to his folly,
Lest thou also be like to him
Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own conceit (Heb. his own eyes)

[overseas (overseas)]

Thank you. God bless.

[pleasant (pleasant)]

I found the following messages very helpful and thought I would share them.

Of course the first message makes me want to change my name! If false prophets are "pleasant," I don't want to be "pleasant." http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/2253.HTM

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/2254.HTM

[grace2u (grace2u)]

How can we be sure we are not making railing accusations against individuals (Jude 1 around vs. 8 and 9) when we try to follow other biblical texts relating to rebuking and reproving?
Thanks!

[overseas (overseas)]

First of all we cannot go around God's command to stand up for His true word, to proclaim the full gospel (including the sin/ repentance part)and to rebuke those that voluntarily or not have spread heresies.
Second, on this earth we will never have a tangible, full confirmation that we do God's will and that we comply with His commands (including rebuking and reproving), other than what we read in His word the Bible. Even if we have a bunch of believers that agree with us on some actions, that's not proof for the correctness of our actions. Basically we are always alone with God Word and God Spirit. The visible proof of the correctness of our actions will be only when we and the others will be in His presence. Approval and disapproval from others should not be the measure for our actions. Accepting to be taught by the other believers that have teaching gifts is a different matter.
Third, my opinion is that one can make sure of following God will only by sincere devotion for God cause. I mean these:
- do you rebuke for the sake of feeling superior or because you cannot stand to see God truth being replaced by fake
- do you feel stronger, do you take pleasure when winning an argument or is it exhausting you and consumming you, but you continue for you feel it is your duty to God
- do you do it because you feel love for the souls of those dragged in heresy and because of the sake of other people that may be affected
- is it your natural inclination to argue and dominate or do you do it against your natural instincts
I believe that questioning oneself as per above helps in establihing the right balance.
God bless.

[malichi (malichi)]

Do you stay a member of a church that teaches in error or heresy and fight for the truth from within to make a change and help lost members or do leave and shake the dust off your feet or leave and fight from without?

[just_curious (just_curious)]

malichi,
The answer to your question often lies more with the leadership of the church than with the individual. An authoritarian or abusive or cultic leadership will usually throw you out before they'll let you confront error from within. That's why we have so many threads on this cult board being posted on by people who tried to change things from within and now are on the outside sounding the warning about the particular group they were once a part of.

[grace2u (grace2u)]

overseas,

Thank you soooo much! You came through again. I hate to debate but feel that I am being pushed to stand up because I hate the deception that occurs by the wolves in sheeps clothing.

God bless,

[grace2u (grace2u)]

I will admit on occassion I feel good when I seem to be winning but I am not fighting for the Lord to lose either.

I present the following because I find it enlightening. I will say quickly that I do not agree with this web-site completely particularly regarding a latter-rain.

from: http://shamah-elim.info/bdymoses.htm#Blasphemous_judgments


<font color="0000ff">Blasphemous judgments

To understand Jude 1:9 correctly, we must do some "retranslations" first:

The word "contending" was translated from the Greek word diakrino, which is derived from the prefix dia, meaning "through", and the word krino, meaning "to judge". Therefore, diakrino refers to someone going through a list of items in order to make a judgment on which items should stay because they are "right" and which should be removed because they are "wrong". Since there is no English word that conveys this exact meaning, we will retranslate diakrino as "judging-through".



The word "devil" was translated from the Greek word diabolos, which is derived from the prefix dia, meaning "through", and the verb ballo, meaning "to throw". Therefore, the word diabolos refers to someone going through a list of items in order to throw accusations at someone every time something bad is found. Notice that the difference between diakrino and diabolos is that diabolos focuses only on finding bad things in order to have something to hold against the other person, while diakrino speaks of making fair judgments that remove what is wrong and reinforce what is right. Because of the fall of man, satan was given the authority to act as our accuser, to condemn us before God for every bad thing that we have done:



"7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Revelation 12:7-10)

[The word "devil" in verse 9 was translated from the same word diabolos mentioned above. The phrase "cast down" in verse 10 was translated from the Greek word kataballo, which is derived from the same word ballo mentioned above; in other words, the thrower of accusations shall be thrown down.]



The only way to break the cycle of satan's accusations is by being "in Christ Jesus":



"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)



According to the verse above, being "in Christ Jesus" is to "walk after the Spirit", which means having a heart yielded to God's will and a repentant mind that seeks after God's laws and judgments. When you have the sincere disposition to pursue God's will and righteousness, no past sin can be held against you, even if you are still struggling to fully overcome that sin in your life.



Since the word diabolos used in Jude 1:9 has the connotation of throwing accusations, we will retranslate it as "accusation-thrower".



The word "disputed" in Jude 1:9 was translated from the Greek word dialegomai, which is derived from the prefix dia meaning "through" and the word lego, which means "to speak words"; the word lego is the verb form of the word logos which literally means "word", and, as we have shared before, logos is always related in Scripture to right-handed concepts such as "law", "justice", and "judgment". Therefore, we could translate dialegomai as "to word-through" or "to apply the law throughout something". For lack of a better term, we will simply retranslate it as "to word-through".



The word "about" in Jude 1:9 was translated from the Greek word peri, from which English words such as "perimeter" and "periphery" are derived. The word peri can also be translated as "around", so we will retranslate it as such.



The phrase "bring against" was translated from the Greek word epiphero, which literally means "bring upon", so we will retranslate it as such.



The word "railing" was translated from the Greek word blasphemia which literally means "blasphemy". The word blasphemia is the combination of the verb blapto, meaning "to harm, injure", and the word pheme, meaning "fame, reputation". In other words, "blasphemy" means to throw accusations that are essentially motivated by a desire to destroy the other person's reputation.



The word "accusation" was translated from the Greek word krisis, which literally means "judgment", and is the noun form of the verb krino mentioned above. Therefore, we will retranslate it as such.




Combining all of the above, this is a better retranslation of Jude 1:9:



"Yet Michael the archangel, when judging-through the accusation-thrower, worded-through around the body of Moses, daring not to bring upon him a blasphemous judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you" (Jude 1:9)



I have heard preachers use Jude 1:9 as Biblical "proof" that no one should ever pronounce a word of judgment against any authority figure, especially pastors, since Michael didn't even dare to pronounce judgment against satan himself. However, our retranslation based on the original Greek text reveals that Michael is in fact judging satan because he is "judging-through the accusation-thrower", meaning that Michael is going through (i.e.- reviewing) the accuser and making judgments against his wrong actions. Michael is also "wording-through", which, as we shared above, has the connotation in Greek of someone reviewing someone or something and applying laws and judgment as the review is being performed.



If Michael was making judgments against the accuser, what did Michael "dare not" do? If you read the retranslation above, you will see that Michael did not dare to make "blasphemous judgment" against the accuser. As we said above, the word "blasphemy" has the connotation of someone throwing accusations that are essentially motivated by a desire to injure another person's reputation. What God abhors is when you make judgments against a leader (or any other person) where your motivation is to injure the other person's reputation, instead of your motivation being a fervent desire to see God's justice manifested. If your judgments are birthed out of a zeal for righteousness and not out of a personal resentment or dislike, your judgments are not blasphemous. However, if your judgments against a leader (or any other person) are your way of "getting back" at that person because of personal reasons that are not motivated by impartial justice, then your judgments will be blasphemous in God's eyes. I know of congregations that have revolted against the preacher because he or she has dared to confront their sin and iniquity from the pulpit. Motivated by an attitude of "how dare he or she tell me how to live my life?", such congregations engage in vicious attacks against the leader based on earthly machinations, not on spiritual confrontation based on God's Word. Cursed be the Canaanite and Hivite blasphemers who impede God's truth on Earth:



"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18)

[The word "hold" was translated from the Greek word katecho, which literally means, "to hold back, to restrain, to hinder"; in other words, the latter part of the verse should say, "who hinder the truth in unrighteousness"]



If you disagree with what the preacher is saying from the pulpit, and your disagreement is based on what you discern in the Spirit, you have the right (and the responsibility) to launch spiritual judgments that will confront that preacher so that he or she may repent and be restored. Those judgments may be launched through prayer (and through direct verbal confrontation, if the Lord tells you to do so), but your focus must remain on God's justice being executed through you. If you happen to be wrong in your assessment of the preacher, God will straighten you out if your focus remains on His righteousness (the one judged will have been you, instead of the preacher, but you will come out a new and restored person as a result of the judgment on you). If the preacher is the one who is wrong, God will pressure him or her to repent through your judgments. If the preacher refuses to repent, the countdown to his or her debacle will have started, because no man can oppose God's judgments and win, even if the judgments are being "released" through a person that is "small" or "insignificant" in the eyes of man.



One thing I have observed in "blasphemous judgers" is that they are like wolves that operate in packs. They are unable to stand alone against a multitude on the strength of their convictions in Christ, and they are unwilling to die alone (figuratively or literally) for the sake of their convictions. Blasphemous judgers work through human means, which implies a strong reliance on numbers.</font>

[overseas (overseas)]

Hello grace2you.

Malichi, you don't have to focus on fighting against heresy; you should always be focused on figthing and promoting God true Word. My friends always told me I am too pushy and aggressive in doctrinary discussions about Bible interpretation, application of doctrines etc. But that became my natural mood. I don't change when I meet heresies because I am already in a 'figthing' mood. For example, I was concerned to go deeper into doctrines when others felt what we had was sufficient. Then when heresies came in, they were not prepared to recognise and reject that.
So you always do what you have to do, no matter the circumstances (good times, bad times, heresies or not, good leaders, bad leaders ...). This way you will not lean as the wind blows. If you always do what is right, you will be naturally excluded if the crowd does it wrong.
God bless.

[godchild (godchild)]

grace2you, The website you referred is very helpful in further understanding the scriptures.
Thank you.

[grace2u (grace2u)]

godchild,

You are very welcome . . . it was important to me to make sure that I wasn't grieving the Holy Spirit. Ya know the wierd thing is that even though I disagree with some who posts here and make statements regarding why I think they are wrong, I find, somehow, that I do feel compassion and charity towards these individuals. Guess it is like a family . . . you argue but still do so without a desire to hurt them or their reputation. I do realize that I can be wrong so I really wanted to search this scripture out because ultimately, I really want to know when I am wrong.

(I do have the desire to win an argument but not to the point of disregarding the truth when and if the lightbulb comes on and I find that I was wrong.)

God Bless