When crime becomes a genetic disease

[curious1 (curious1)]

ok, well *if* for the sake of argument homosexuality, like alcoholism were in fact not only a disease but also something that was the result of a predisposed genetic abnormality we must then also open up not only the entire prison system but our entire social and legal systems to reproof and rebuke. But then is that not the entire object of special interest groups like the gays, anti-death penalty, etc anyway? At what point do we draw the line? the prisons are full of people that persist with the attitude of "i had a right to kill that sob". if they're all suffering from physical, emotional, and genetic abnormalities then no one is responsible for their actions and everything from our social and legal institutions to (all!) of our religious organizations are wrong. so following this vein along where do we end up if not with a singular one world, one government, one religion world where all are touting, "we are one!" if law and religions and people are all one then no legal system and no religion is above another. and in the end Christianity has been de-fanged to the point that the one central issue that makes it stand separate and apart of all other religions is no longer offensive to the others. and those few remaining stalwart souls suffer at the hands of the majority for if you can't get them to join so that all will finally be one indeed the only option remaining is to hold a big worldwide tribulation and kill the few holdout dissidents off and then we can proclaim that the world is finally, "all one!"

at what point do we draw the line at responsibility if all irresponsible acts are determined to be illnesses beyond one's ability to control?

If all crime has been determined to be "illnesses" then where is the necessity for Christ's sacrifice?

as one member of the american humanist's organization so aptly put it, their objective is to reduce Christianity to a "rotting corpse". and it doesn't take just frontal assaults. change the law to allow homosexuals to enjoy legality of their actions and to marry on one front and on another make alcoholism a disease and on another do away with the death penalty calling all illegal actions diseases and all the while these sorts of actions are saying, in effect, the Bible is old antiquated laws irrelevant to today.

in the meantime we have evolutionists telling everyone we are gradually attaining a form of perfection and godhood through natural evolution all on our own.

of course, when "we" do reach that level of evolutionary godhood it won't help all those billions of those of us who lived and died beforehand and were duped with kind of thinking now will it?

but then, all crime and sin are even more than just genetic diseases for it strikes at man's very core ever since The Fall.

then again, the imperfect can never in and of itself be made perfect.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[prschuster (prschuster)]

Curious 1 wrote:

as one member of the american humanist's organization so aptly put it, their objective is to reduce Christianity to a "rotting corpse". and it doesn't take just frontal assaults. change the law to allow homosexuals to enjoy legality of their actions and to marry on one front and on another make alcoholism a disease and on another do away with the death penalty calling all illegal actions diseases and all the while these sorts of actions are saying, in effect, the Bible is old antiquated laws irrelevant to today.

prschuster:
I agree with you on only one point. Crimes are caused by willfull acts, for which one must take personal responsibility. Bringing homosexuality, alcoholism & evolution into this discussion just confuses your point. I think there may be some genetic component to homosexuality, but that doesn't make it either a disease or sin. I don't subscribe to the disease theory of alcoholism, and believe that one must take personal responsibility for quitting. As for the death penalty, calling for its abolition does not absolve the murderer from moral responsibility or guilt; it's only a position that challenges the approprateness or effectiveness of retribution, instead of deterence, as the rationale for criminal justice. Finally, bringing evolution into this is a total nonsequitar, confusing social Darwinism with true science. So, all in all, you are throwing too many different pieces of fruit into the same basket and calling them all apples.

[curious1 (curious1)]

quote: throwing too many different pieces of fruit into the same basket and calling them all apples

whether those "fruits" are homosexuals, evolutionists or alcoholics they all boil down to the same thing as their roots are all sin and are of their father the devil and thus there is a thread of commonality pulling them all together through the propensity of their willfulness.

[carlota (carlota)]

Curious 1,

You begin with a hypothetical that is not just hypothetical, but wrong.

Homosexuality has not yet been conclusively linked to a genetic predisposition (or as you call it "abnormality") nor, for that matter has alcoholism (not entirely).

<font color="ff0000">"When crime becomes a genetic disease"

</font>Even the title of this thread has very faulty wording. It should be the reverse...a genetic disease becomes criminal. The research that is being done into criminal beavior is centered around pathologies and pychological disorders that can result in criminal behavior. This science is not being pursued to absolve criminals of their guilt, but rather to prevent the occurance of more crimes, if in fact the criminal behavior derives from a disorder that is treatable.

This science is not attempting to explain the root cause of all crime or criminal behavior. This would be impossible. However, if very specific criminal behavior can be traced to an imbalance or disorder that is genetic the result could be the prevention of crime through medical treatment and I would think that that possibility would be a very positive one. It could mean fewer crimes being commited and fewer people going to prison.

In your response to prschuster, you manage to avoid the very issues you have brought up here by simply condemning homosexuals, evolutionists and alcoholics as sinful. Sounds like a cop out.

Can't you do any better than that?

[curious1 (curious1)]

"Man starts from nothing. He begins in helplessness, ignorance, and inexperience. All his works, therefore, proceed on the principle of evolution. This principle is seen only in human affairs: from the hut to the palace; from the canoe to the ocean liner; from the spade and ploughshare to machines for drilling, reaping, and binding, &amp;c. But the birds build their nests to-day as at the beginning. The moment we pass the boundary line, and enter the Divine sphere, no trace or vestige of evolution is seen. There is growth and development within, but no passing, change, or evolution out from one into another. On the other hand, all God's works are perfect.

Evolution is only one of several theories invented to explain the phenomena of created things. It is admitted by all scientists that no one of these theories covers all the ground; and the greatest claim made for Evolution, or Darwinism, is that "it covers more ground than any of the others."

The Word of God claims to cover all the ground: and the only way in which this claim is met, is by a denial of the inspiration of the Scriptures, in order to weaken it. This is the special work undertaken by the so-called "Higher Criticism", which bases its conclusions on human assumptions and reasoning, instead of on the documentary evidence of manuscripts, and Textual Criticism does."-EW Bullinger

[carlota (carlota)]

Hi Curious 1,

With all due respect, how does this quote address anything I wrote in my post to you? I am well aware of the difference between scienific theory and spiritual beliefs.

None of this changes the fact that you seem to misunderstand the science behind the hypothetical situation you proposed.

[curious1 (curious1)]

Carlota,
I do not believe alcoholism and (especially) homosexuality are genetically predisposed. I believe these are of choice, also, the Scriptures make no allowance for such.

Once we excuse one of these crimes as a disease where does it stop or are the floodgates opened for all?

Does it not logically follow that all must then be the result of mental instability and disease?

Or, to pose it another way: who in their right mind would commit murder (or, for that matter, any crime)?

If only the "crazies" commit crimes then there is no validity in the law's judgment or, for that matter, God's judgment of the sinful and wicked for then the "innocent by reason of insanity" is the only remaining option.

How then do we proceed?

[carlota (carlota)]

Ok, now we are talking...

Curious 1,

You are free to believe as you choose. As of yet (as I posted earlier) there is no conclusive theory about the genetic link between such things as homosexuality and alcoholism.

<font color="ff0000">Does it not logically follow that all must then be the result of mental instability and disease?

</font>No, it does not logically follow at all. In fact that question makes no sense whatsoever. As far as I know no one has proposed the idea that all human actions are the result of "mental instability and disease".

<font color="ff0000">Or, to pose it another way: who in their right mind would commit murder (or, for that matter, any crime)?

</font>Well, in answer to that, many people commit murder in their "right mind" and they are, in many cases, put through rigorous testing to prove this.

No one has ever said that only the "crazies" commit crimes. However if, in fact, there is a link between certain psychological disorders and certain criminal behavior it should be explored in order to prevent that criminal behavior.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Science is not seeking to change this. Science is seeking to PREVENT criminal behavior that may in fact be preventable. This would result in less crime....not in more crime that is excusable.

[curious1 (curious1)]

quote: "there is no conclusive theory about the genetic link between such things as homosexuality and alcoholism."

i agree.

quote: "Does it not logically follow that all must then be the result of mental instability and disease?"

my apologies for improper grammar; the above sentence and the one following should have been together, thusly:

"Once we excuse one of these crimes as a disease where does it stop or are the floodgates opened for all in that all must then be the result of mental instability and disease?"

does this make more sense, in that i was attempting to show the fallacy in thinking?

I do not believe it is even possible for ANYONE EVER to commit murder and be in a right frame of mind. There must be something off in their head to even think of such things. This is why the Scriptures tell us to control not just our acts but even our very thoughts. In God's eyes to think it is to do it for that is where the heart is.

Science is not the problem; the humanistic application of science is; and that would excuse such actions as the result of sickness and disease. But the dis-ease is inherently the result of mankind's fallen state and the imperfect can never in and of itself be made perfect; and, yet, that, euphemistically called science is the goal of humanism.