Can a ministry lose the anointing

[infreedom (infreedom)]

I know the scripture says the "gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" but we also have the example of Saul whom God replaced with David because of disobedience even though Saul retained the crown for some years afterward. We know a minister who may have been greatly anointed at one time but is now teaching very grave error and spiritually abusing his people. He had a visitor about a year ago who showed up for an hour give or take a little at the minister's very remote home that was far out the visitor's way. We were present during this visit.The visitor appeared to have come only to relay this message: It is possible for a man to have a genuine anointing and walk out from under it. What do you all think about this issue? The minister and his people assumed the man was talking about himself. We think he was talking about this minister. We think it was a warning from God which the minister ignored.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

I do believe a man can have a fall from Grace. But, the anointing abides within. Your faith pulls it out of you. A minister could be out of church and in sin. Come upon a carwreck where someon is hurt. Be moved to pray for the people. His faith would bring his anointing on him. Go pray for the hurt person, and, they be healed. Not, by the minister, but, by God thru the ministers faith.

[infreedom (infreedom)]

This makes some sense. But what about this? It seems to us that we have seen some fruit -- in fact, we've experienced some fruit -- while sitting under this man. However, the fruit seems to be more in spite of him than because of him. The fruit of his actual teaching is bondage, fear and loss of faith. But the fruit in spite of him is a strong desire for truth and a determination to hear God for oneself. It's sort of like the anointing causes -- at least in some -- a result different from the minister's actual intent which is perverse. Or am I totally confused?

[turtle (turtle)]

No infreedom you are not confused. Realize God can work even in bad situations. Under false preachers and teachers and even backslidden preachers. When people in a church begin to produce good fruit then it is of God. The minister may of had bad ftuit. And been a bad role model. But this may of spur the individual to look to God and not man. It took the focus off the physical leader and onto the spiritual leader. So these people bagan to produce fruit of God and not from this man's ministry.

Fruits you witnessing is from God not from man.

[infreedom (infreedom)]

Thank you, Turtle. When I read that, tears sprang into my eyes as I realized the truth of it.

[turtle (turtle)]

Infreedom, Only reason I understand your question is I have seen this same thing. God work is amazing what he does through individuals.
Holy Spirit is our teacher not man.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

What does it mean "to be annointed"?

[infreedom (infreedom)]

Well, there's a good question. I thought I knew until I tried to figure out an answer.

[turtle (turtle)]

Annointed- if I was to define it. I would use the word chosen by God. Look at I samuel 16. God chose david. An annointing with oil was a symbol of this.

God children are annointed chosen by him. If you are saved you are chosen. You receive the Holy Spirit when you believed. Some churches will use the word annointed loosely to make a person feel special. By signaling someone out and saying they are annointed. But all believer are annointed not just the minister or teacher. WE are all disciples of Christ. He commanded all his disciples to teach and to preach. Doesnt' mean necessarily behind a pulpit. Are there special annointings as far as gifts yes inside the church. Some people have special gifts that they do better then someone else but that other person will also have a gift he does well. If you need scripture I will put some down tomorrow.

(Message edited by turtle on July 03, 2005)

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

The anointing is a covering of the Holy Ghost.

[infreedom (infreedom)]

It's been so long since I heard these things about all believers being anointed, etc. It's like balm to my heart.

[turtle (turtle)]

I am glad it has minister to you. Sometimes we forget these basic truths. I know how much just these simple truths have meant to me this past year.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

1 John 2:20-27 (New International Version) 20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (New International Version)
21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.


Turtle,
You made the point I was looking for: as believers, we are ALL anointed! Singling individuals or particular ministries out as "being anointed" does not appear to be a biblical concept, but it seems too often to be accepted as such.

Just food for thought. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[easeltine (easeltine)]

Turtle,

Sister, you are stating truths well.

Erich

[turtle (turtle)]

I hate to use this example but it is the only one I can think of right now Grace2u. Some tv preachers claim to have an annointing like they have something more special then anyone else in the church. Which each have the gift of the Holy Spirit that we are to use in the church I Cor 12. But I have seen people be able to move in these different gifts mainly because no one would volunteer to do what God layed on their heart. So sometimes it looks like one person is doing it all and no one else is needed but this is not true. All believers have a part to do. It makes less strange and stress on other believers. Seeing people do what God has called them to do should be a blessing not a jealousy because I don't have that gift. Or he or she is doing my gift. Some ministers have a hard time sharing their pulpit. Because they feel it is all theirs. They maybe in charge but they need to be teaching people to replace them. There is a reason for elders. They can be a great source of encouragement and teachers for those that will listen. They are people that are will seasoned in the faith. Seen changes in the church good or bad and have spiritual wisdom. They should be helping of the training of the younger to be ready to take their position in the church.

So no one annointing is more special then another but our gifts are different and if we do something will that is where we should be using our gifts.

Thanks Grace2u for finding the scripture. I had planned to this am. I got to get out of this laziness. Or maybe it not laziness because it encourages others to search scripture for themselves to see if what I say lines up with God's word. And it confirms I am not the only one interpetating God's word that way.

[overseas (overseas)]

I would stand against anybody in the church (with or without annointing) that promotes false doctrines or has a wrong attitude. And if they invoke 'annointing' as a cover, I would use that against them (i.e. they should be more responsible).
In a practical way, I know about gifts of the Spirit. Though annointing is present in the Scriptures, that is more general, isn't it ? I don't think annointing is something enforceable against other people. I mean annointed people should be identified as such based on their message and holiness. As somebody else put it 'if you have to say to the others you're a lady, you're probably not'. Show me your annointing from the way you open the Scriptures to me and encourage me on my way with the Lord. Annointing should be first of all a great burden of responsibility, not a warrant to terrorize people in the church.

[turtle (turtle)]

Alot of leaders especially today do just that. Actually to tell you the truth I am glad this discussion came up. It helps me to examine myself especially my role i had another a false minister. I think church do use that word to loosely and forget its real meaning. It like calling myself a preacher or teacher I should not have to say it it should be obvious because of my speech and actions.

[overseas (overseas)]

The issue of annointing is related to the issue of authority in the church. Again, authority issue is very misunderstood and debated these days. While some emphasise that solution to today's church problems is to increase authority (my questions are: whose authority ? over whom ? in what apsects ?), I believe the problem is the other way round. Many leaders sincerely undertook wrong autority positions that undermined the lay people responsibility to establish strong ties with God. The question is what would people in the local church do in case they would be forced to spread away of their leaders as in Acts ? Would they establish new churches or die spiritually ?
Truely annointed leaders should train their flock as to be able to survive by themselves. they should check on the progress of each sheep in its personal relationship with God, not to place themselves between God and the flock. They should allow variety in the church (as activities, worship, ministries etc.) not try to monopolise all activity and impose unique 'programs'. And this goes perfectly in harmony with the concept of annointing of all believers.

[turtle (turtle)]

Amen! I would not be surprise overseas if you told me you seen this displayed in both a negative and positive way in your own life in the country in which you live.

[jason_stone (jason_stone)]

We were always taught to learn your own anointing. If you have the Holy Ghost the anointing abides within.

A preacher that has a anointing is no more than a person who just prays for people. No one part of the body is greater than another in God's eyes. It is in our own eyes that we begin to lift others up. And, that is flesh. It is pride, which is of the devil.

When you lift up a preacher instead of jesus. And, he is not dead to the flesh. It will go to his head. He will start to think he is something. That is where self righteousness comes in. That is where judgement and condemnation comes in. From the flesh. The greatest among us is to be the servent of all.

To many ministers are trying to be lords over God's heritage instead of being examples to the othe sheep.

I am a Jesus man. God bless.

[overseas (overseas)]

Yes Turtle, I had to deal with some difficult people. Though it was at an early stage of my christian life, it didn't affect my faith, which is surprisingly after all... but I know God strenghtened me at that time.
Anyway, some leaders take a wrong authority position cause they like it, others are just pushed by the congregation which is more comfortable with "one man show" instead of involving actively. I am tired of how many gifted people I see in the pews doing nothing, cause that's the way they are taught to live in the church. I know I have to be accountable to the church as a body, but the body cannot and should not dictate how my personal relationship with Jesus goes.
I am also tired by the fact that preachers don't communicate with the church about the doctrines they promote. They talk and the church listens. There is no feedback. Nobody is invited to comment. And when you do it (cause some do) then you are accused of negativism.

[turtle (turtle)]

Very true Overseas. This is so true. But we have to stand on the word of God and his leading us. Sometimes we learned to shut up sometimes we learn to speak up and sometimes we learn to move on.