What does it mean to circumcise your heart

[turtle (turtle)]

What does it mean to circumsize your heart. This is Bible both old and new. I am wondering how many christians and even non christians that believe in God understand what this means. Confession I have already worked up the Bible study on this just want to see if you all know.

[common_sense (common_sense)]

turtle,
Have you ever considered starting up your own web site?

[turtle (turtle)]

turtle,
Have you ever considered starting up your own web site? by common_sense

<font color="ff0000">I am not sure how to take that question. Either you want me gone or you like my questions?</font>

[godchild (godchild)]

turtle, I'd like to hear your definition.

[godchild (godchild)]

Romans 2:25-29 has the answer.

[wyoming (wyoming)]

.

Circumcision is for cleanliness. Rom 2:29 is the answer.

[turtle (turtle)]

Yep using romans tonight and Gensis 17. Just curious of others view. There is one in Deutromy and in jermiah. It is an interesting. i will share my thoughts on this later.

[love22698 (love22698)]

to me to corcumcise is to cut the flesh loose. a circumsiesd heart would be a heart that has severed itself from the fleshly desires of man, not yeilding to them. there will be temtations but we can always say... no.

[common_sense (common_sense)]

turtle,
Not trying to chase you off, just curious as to why so many questions of this type on a site dedicated to the exposure of cults and mind control?

You DO ask great questions. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wyoming (wyoming)]

.

The thread on Doctrine is an accomodation for such questions. As you can see, there is a lot under Doctrine.

[turtle (turtle)]

Doctrine, beliefs and proofs, I try to type what God lays on my heart to type but yes sometimes flesh gets involved. I came here originally looking for answers to a cult situation I got into.

I was trying to get answers. I have gotten most of my questions answered. More from research then from this site. I decided to stick around and take in and learn as much as I can. But I do not fit into some groups because I know little about the group. But some of my questions are more for individuals to just think about and see if one truly believes what the Bible says or not. What God says.

WE get caught up in church doctrines sometimes we dont' look at the whole Word of God. But it is refreshing to see on this site so many that really dig into the word like I do. I dont' agree with everyone and i make it clear that I don't but i want those to know even if I dont' agree doesn't mean I hate you, because what you say makes me think and test my own faith. And there has been a few times i have come down hard directing questions to people like Jason. And I wonder if he learned has much as I did. I cant' tell anyone what to believe but I hope it encourages people to seek God and who he is.

topic changing back to original

Love you got a good start on the discussion topic.

[turtle (turtle)]

Common_sense to answer your first question yes I have thought about setting up my own board but I know probably way less then I need to to be able to run the type of site that I would like to run. I have a group on msn i just started under Turtle30c Shell, under christian and denomination but not alot have signed up yet so it still not to interesting yet.

[turtle (turtle)]

With all this non topic said lets get back to business. What does it mean to circumcize your heart. Let's look first in Genesis at Abraham and his relationship with God. God in the previous chapter starting in chapter fifteen had given abraham an everlasting covenant. Next chapter you see Abraham and Sarah trying to do things there way. Now into the chapter 17 God reminds abraham again of what he has promised. When Abraham circumcized all males in his family it was an act of obedience despite what may of be going through his mind. Realize Abraham laughs when God tells him Sarah is going to have a child and she is ninety years old. On that very fact alone I would of had doubt. But Abraham always believe God even though he seem to struggle with doubt. So Abraham was obedient to God and believe God even though I feel he may of struggled with it. Do we not struggle with our belief sometime.

[godchild (godchild)]

Circumcision--an outward sign--stood for a thorough commitment to God--an inward reality. Hence the Apostle Paul demands that the heart be circumcised:
Romans 2:28-29 Paul pronounces circumcision as being of no value (vv.25-27). Circumcision that is only outward is of no avail before God because God wants the outward demonstration to be the sign of an inward reality. Paul's teaching is consistent with the Law and the Old Testament prophets, for both claimed the need for internal circumcision (Deut.10;16; Jer.4:4). The change of heart that Paul describes with the image of internal circumcision is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the result of external obedience to the Law. In fact, God condemns external observance if it is not the product of a righteous heart (Isa. 1:10-18).
God judges a person according to the state of his or her heart, not according to external appearance. (Circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham; Gen. 17:11) an everlasting covenant. God would not go back on it ever. His promise was uncondiitional, but Abram's was conditional on his faithfulness and his obedience to God's commands. Abram withstood the test. Sarai received the blessings also (Gen. 17:15-16). Sarai...Sarah: both names mean Princess. Like Abram's name change to Abraham, Sarai's was renamed Sarah showing a new relationship with God.

[turtle (turtle)]

When I was working on this bible study I began to think what is important about what Abraham did and Abraham's relationship with God. God was reconfirming the covenant with Abraham once again and then required of Abraham to act on faith despite what he was thinking. This verse came to mind.

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee. "
(Proverbs 23:7)

Fact is what a man thinks in his heart is what matters or counts. Despite what Abraham head knowledge said he believed God in his heart and obeyed God. Then I began to search out circumcision.

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Moses was telling the Israelites what God told him to say. The simple fact is the israelites still lacked faith. They were unbelieving. And he was telling them not to be unbelieving but believe in your heart to have faith.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs says to trust in the Lord with all your heart. In otherwords believe God and to acknowledge him in everything you do and he promises he will direct our paths. Seek the Lord with our hearts and believe despite the fact we can undeerstand in our heads. He was asking Abraham to do this very thing.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live

This says exactly what Christ told us to do in His first command for us to Love God. I wonder why he would command us to love Him. I think that is what distinguish a christian and a non believe that believes in God. Even satan believes but he does not love God. We are told to love God. As a christian I do not see love as a command but something we do because God loved us first. But I think people who love God believe God. He is our Heavenly Father. It is like a parents love for a child. A parent will love a child and almost always the child will express love back. Even when a child is rebellious he still loves his parents. Outward show though might be different.

Then we look at one more verse before getting to Romans.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

People were worshiping idols and turning from God in Jermiah day. You can not serve to master your heart can not say I love God and curse God in the same breath. It says in Gensis all mens hearts are evil. WE need to put away the evilness in our hearts and seek him.

Then we get to Romans finally not least but last for this study that I did.

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Romans 2:25-29)

Simple fact is there was a problem in the early church of Christians from jewish heritage that felt it was necessary for gentiles to be circumcized, but Paul corrects them here.

First you can physically circumcised and not have a circumcised heart. YOu can be circumcised in the heart and not the physically. Which is more important to God outward show or inward show. The heart is more important. What one believes is important. You can obey the whole law and never love God that is what so many people do. They think I am going to heaven because i am a good person. This is not true because there heart is not right with God there is no love for God. God desires people who love him back.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16)

We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
(1 John 4:19-21)

Loving God is circumcision of the heart. If we Love Him we will obey Him. Think Christ first to commands to his disciples to Love the Lord and to love others.

(Message edited by turtle on August 25, 2005)

[doug (doug)]

<font color="0000ff">Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live </font>
In order to "live" we have to eat of the tree of life but it is in the Garden of Eden guarded by Cherubim with "a sword that goes every way like a flame" (time?/ there is no physical place called Eden on earth any more that I know of).

In the Old Testament man was judged by a tree "of knowledge of good and evil". A cherubim with a sword that goes every way like a flame (time?) guarded man in the likeness of Adam from going back and eating of the tree of life.
Then man was judged by a flood. It rained 40 days and nights and a dove and raven were sent up from the ark. There was a rainbow to show that we would not be judged by water any more.
Then the children of Israel were elected by God and given the law which, as I see it brought condemnation on everyone but Christ Jesus whose crucifixion was a sign that man would not be judged by the law again. The law, perfected in him, was nailed to the cross in him, agreed to by the ones who were trusted to keep it (but didn't).

THE BACKWARD WALK OF CHRIST JESUS
Jesus went in reverse through the history in the 5 books of Moses summarized above.

The Law
First he obeyed the law in the Torah living in submission to his parents.

The Flood
Then he went back before the law to the flood. In the flood it rained 40 days and nights and a dove and a raven were sent up from the Ark of Noah.
Jesus went into the water and the holy spirit descended on him like a dove and he went into the wilderness 40 days and 40 nights.
The dove is the holy spirit.
The raven is the spirit of Elijah. Elijah was fed by ravens of the brook during the famine. Elijah was to turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. In proverbs it said the eye that mocks at his father and despises to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out. Jesus said that If you care to believe it John is the Elijah to come. John's baptism has something to do with the raven.
(There is also interesting definitions and root word for the word meaning "pitch" on the Ark of Noah that is related to salvation. Pitch (Genesis 6:14) Strongs 3724 kopher; from 3722; prop. a cover, i.e. (lit.) a village (as covered in); (spec.) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dying); fig. a redemption-price:- bribe, camphire,pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village. 3722 kaphar; a prim. root; to cover (spec. with bitumen); fig. to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:- appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).)

The Garden of Eden
Jesus went backward before the flood to the garden of Eden. It says in Deuteronmy 30:6 , Yahveh Elohim (the Lord thy God), "will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed to love Yahveh Elohim with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that you may live." In order to live one must eat of the tree of life which is in the garden of Eden being guarded by cherubim with a sword.

The last supper of Jesus was the Passover supper where the angel of death passed over all those in the households of Israel when it saw the blood of the lamb on the doorpost.
I see the blood as the blood of the circumcised heart (Jesus when his heart was pierced, water and blood came out).
On Passover Jesus and his disciples revisit the original scene in Eden and reverse it. Adam is played by Jesus. Eve is played by the disciples. The devil is played by Judas "One of you is a devil" (Jesus)
Adam and Eve ate to forget God to become like God. Jesus broke the bread and told his disciples "Eat this in remembrance of me" to remember rather than forget. Since Adam mankind has been using food thinking it is doing something it is not doing. People use food like a drug to dull their conscience or to compensate and feel good when they are not.

Temptation
Where were Adam and Eve before they ate? They were in a garden being tempted. Remember we are going in reverse Where were Christ and the disciples after they ate? In the garden of Gethsemane during Jesus’ time of temptation.

The Bride
Adam went back before Eve was formed. Adam was put into a deep sleep and his side was opened and a helps meet was made for him from his side.
Christ was put into a deep sleep, death, and his side was opened, and water and blood came out. Also being killed by man under the dominion of Satan putting to death an innocent man who was seed of God and not of Adam, brought judgment on Satan. I believe the bride of Christ is the witness that is said in the NT to be of the spirit, water and blood.

The Alpha and Omega
The host, army, of heaven was in place before Adam was formed. Christ Jesus takes us to heavenly places but there was a battle in heaven. Christ takes us back to the beginning and where are we? At the end of the scripture the revelation of John the apostle is the description of that battle.

REVELATION
Of Yourself You Can Do Nothing
There was a battle in heaven and in it Satan's people fight for Satan but Jesus fights for his people. All as they can do is seek understanding and be thankful.

In the battle the serpent cast a third of the stars to the earth with its tail. This is who I believe the lost are whom Christ came to save. They are lost as in lost sheep, not as in lost sinners. Everyone is a sinner but not everyone is lost. Some people are comfortable and at home in hell, separation from God, Adam's death. They will be comfortable there until hell and death (Adam's death, the first death/the first Adam) are cast into the lake of fire. I believe that hell is separation from God and if we aren't born into it the moment we are conceived in Adam's death "we all died in Adam" than it sure is a likeness of it. hell will be a place of torment when it is cast into the lake of fire.