FinneyMoodyTorreyFundamentalist amp Gifts of the Holy Spirit [Archive]

easeltine (easeltine)

07-03-2005, 10:48 AM

Hi,
I apologize for being so long. I really felt this needs to be brought out.
"Since when do Finney, Torrey, and Moody support post-apostolic speaking in tongues?"

They supported the Gifts of Speaking in Tongues found in 1 Cor. 12-14, I cannot find evidence that they supported the idea that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that modern Charismatic/Pentecostals believe.
The point I am making is that these men all believed that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for this age.
Finney has numerous experiences of manifestations of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1 Cor. 12-14.
The experience of conversion, which Finney calls numerous Baptism of the Holy Spirit are interesting:
Charles Finney - 1821 http://bible.christiansunite.com/Charles_Finney/finney02.shtml - His biography is dynamic, Words of Knowledge, Words of Wisdom, Discerning of Spirits, Healing are Gifts that were in operation throughout his ministry.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the "unutterable gushings of my heart" Finney mostly talks about groanings in his personal experience. Some would call me a nut if I related an experience like this.

"But as I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.
No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, "I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me." I said, "Lord, I cannot bear any more;" yet I had no fear of death."

Torrey and Moody believed in a secondary experience called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the Charismata Gifts of the Holy Spirit still being possible, including the Gift of Speaking in Tongues.

Regarding Dwight L. Moody, a quotation from Trails and Triumphs of Faith 1875 Edition p. 402 by Reverend R. Boyd a very good Baptist Minister friend of D.L. Moody's
"When I got to the rooms of the Young Men's Christian Association (Victoria Hall, London), I found the meeting on fire. The young men were speaking in tongues, prophesying. What on earth did it mean? Only that Moody has been addressing them that afternoon."

D.L. Moody's Spiritual Secret by R.A. Torrey
I actually have some of this from a Dispensational book I have called The Holy Spirit by Charles Ryrie P. 75 in which Ryrie actually blames Moody and Torrey for the modern confusion regarding the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The article talks about Moody and Torrey going to some of his teachers at Northfield because they did not believe in the secondary experience called that Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Torrey and Moody talked to them awhile but the teachers didn't see eye to eye with them on the subject. Moody said about this, "Oh, why will they split hairs? They are good teachers, and I am so glad to have them here; but why will they not see that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is just the touch that they need?"
R.A. Torrey was going to give a meeting that day to the student at 3:00. When 3:00 arrived D.L. Moody made the following comment, "Young men, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't kneel down right now and ask God that the Holy Spirit may fall upon us just as definitely as He fell upon the apostles on the Day of Pentecost."
R.A. Torrey concludes - Men and women, that is what we all need-the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Article - Amazing Saints, by Phil Saint Logos, 1972 Ryrie in his book The Holy Spirit gives the story as coming from the book, "Why God used D.L. Moody (New York: Fleming H. Revell., 1923), pp. 51-55.
E.M. Wood book Fruit From the Jungle 1918 says that when he was going to D.L. Moody's School for Boys, (around 1877), says that he personally heard D.L. Moody preach to the young men at 6:00 AM on several occasions that they needed to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Ryrie says in his book on p. 75 that Torrey taught that a person could or could not be baptized in the Holy Spirt at regeneration. R.A. Torrey The Baptism of the Holy Spirit,pp 13-15
Ryrie says that Moody believed the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a subsequent work of grace is from the same book as above.
The book I have which makes it very clear that R.A. Torrey beleved in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1 Corinthians 12-14 being available to the Chrisitan today is What the Bible Teaches 1896 by Revell. Included is the Gift of Speaking in Tongues.
The two chapters that spell it out in the book are Chapter 7 - The Baptism and Filling with the Holy Spirit and Chapter 8 - The Work of the Holy Spirit in Prophets and Apostles
There is a lot of teaching in Chapter 7. R.A. Torrey lists the Gifts of the Holy Spirit from 1 Corinthians 12:4-10 and says that they are all available today. Listen to some of the Propositions that R.A. Torrey supports from Scripture:
pg. 271 The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is an operation of the Holy Spirit distinct from and subsequent and additional to His regenerating work.
Every true believer has the Holy Spirit. But not every believer has the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, though every believer, as we shall see, may have. Pg. 271
It is the impartation of supernatural power of gifts in service, and sometimes one may have rare gifts by the Spirit's power and few graces. 1 Cor. 13:1-3 Pg. 273
The Baptism with the Holy Spirit was not merely for apostles, nor merely for those of the apostolic age, but for "all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" as well, i.e., it is for every believer in every age of the Church's history. If any believer in any age does not have the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, it is solely because he does not claim his privelege in Christ. Pg. 278

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-03-2005, 07:54 PM

People who have come to the conclusion that all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased at end of the "Apostolic Age" have used people like Scofield's Reference Bible to do so. Scofield's Reference Bible in Acts 2 his commentary says that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not in operation today. Scofield was not very qualified to write a commentary, based upon his learning and his personal life.

The Dispensationalist have traditionally based their idea on Scofield's interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 that the Gifts have ceased because we have the "perfect" which they interpret as the end of the writing of the Canon, 64 AD + or -. A Dispensationalist would say that their ideas are the "traditional" ideas and that therefore any Charismatic or Pentecostal that teaches otherwise is teaching heresy. The Dispensationalist interpretation is a conclusion based on the ideas from 1 Cor. 13:8-12, and is in fact not what the Scripture says, it is a conclusion reached on ideas of the passage. The fact of the matter this idea of the perfect being the completion of Scripture around 64 A.D., is not held by many Dispensationalist theologians as a statement of fact that this is what the passage is talking about. In fact the traditional viewpoint has never been that dogmatic on the idea that the Gifts have ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age. One does not need to hold these viewpoints. It would seem to me to be unwise to do so.

Ryrie - Who is a friend of John Mac Arthur comes from the Dispensationalist camp. In his book The Holy Spirit written in 1965 Ryrie does not come to the absolute conclusion that all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased at the Apostolic Age. He did not use the interpretation that Scofield used regarding 1 Cor. 13 in meaning that all Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased today. He even left it open that the Gift of Tongues could still take place today. He was not a total Dispensationalist in his ideas on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

John Mac Arthur interprets 1 Cor. 13:8-12 as that face-to-face meaning face-to-face with Jesus Christ. The reason is that one must reach to that conclusion from the exact meaning of these passages. It is not as dogmatic as Scofield presented that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased at the Apostolic Age basing it on these Scriptures.

Billy Graham, other Baptists and Fundamentalists, like John Maxwell, do not hold to the idea that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased today. The standard Fundamentalist position is not the Dispensationalist viewpoint. The Dispensationalist viewpoint is not only not traditional, that viewpoint is the one that is heresy.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have continued throughout the history of the Church of Jesus Christ, even before the Protestant Reformation, some would put that date at 1517 AD when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses on the door of the Wittenberg Chapel. To reject all church history from 64 AD - 1517 AD, because it was Catholic seem illogical and dihonest, no matter the obvious errors in the church. To remind everybody Martin Luther never seeked to be excommunicated in 1520, he wanted the church to reform itself of the errors it had. The Catholic church errors were not quite as blatant in the earlier years when many Gifts of the Holy Spirit were in operation, such as Saint Columba 521-597 AD.

Wycliffe Commentary on 1 Cor. 13:8-12 - "The point of verse 8 is that there will come a time when the gifts mentioned will be done away with, or cease."
Vs. 9-10 - vs. 10 "That which is perfect cannot be a reference to the completion of the canon of Scripture, otherwise we now, living in the age of the completed canon, would see more clearly than Paul did (vs. 9). Even the most self-satisfied, and opinionated of theologians would hardly admit that. The coming of that which is perfect can only be a reference to the Lord's second coming, (John Mac Arthur's viewpoint). That event will mark the end of the exercize of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. How can one speak of these gifts as temporary?"
Then Wycliffe goes on and says one cannot be dogmatic, but here is how one could come up with that idea.

Matthew Henry - "But these gifts were fitted to the present imperfect state of the church, valuable in themselves, but not to be compared with charity..."
"God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know Him as we are known by Him..."
"We shall then fix our eye on Him and see Him as He..."
"And where God is to be seen as He is, and face to face..."

It is ironic that the Dispensationalist are using one or two verses in 1 Corinthians 13, the Chapter on love, sandwiched between Chapters 12 and 14 and most of Chapter 13 that is giving Christians the proper usage of Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Meloon, an Independent Baptist, who wrote the book, "We've Been Robbed", that is worth reading regarding the subject of Dispensationalism from a Baptist that received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from a Charimatic standpoint. I think that the conclusion that all Charismatics/Pentecostals are operating in false Gifts of the Holy Spirits and have demons that they are doing the operatation of false gifts is illogical, devisive, and heresy. It is a conclusion that a Fundamentalist should not immediately come to. Really look at these passages and realize that there is room for ideas regarding the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that is different than yours viewpoint and room for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to be operational in the church of Jesus Christ today.

This does not excuse the abuses of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement and there are many out there. Many of Pentecostal/Charismatic people lack discernment and do not realize the extent of the demons that are operating in churches.

Do not throw away a part of Christianity, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, away from your lives!
You will be robbed of blessings that you could receive. Do not be totally dogmatic or fearful of abuses that are taking place! We have the Lord Jesus Christ who will protect us through the power of His shed blood on the cross. Press into these things, do not be stagnantly sitting in your pews!

Ok, got it out of my system.

Erich

turtle (turtle)

07-03-2005, 08:28 PM

Ok, got it out of my system. erich

I would of hope after all that you would of goten it in. lol

wyoming (wyoming)

07-03-2005, 09:25 PM

The record of Charles Finney's conversion experience is quite well known. It isn't a second act of saving grace (which I wouldn't believe anyway). The "one baptism" of the "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all..", has to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit [not water] which all Christians receive. Your implication that "unutterable gushings of my heart" means that he spoke in tongues, is quite a stretch to enlist him into your camp.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-03-2005, 10:10 PM

I agree that is an account of Charles Finney's converstion experience. There are many fillings of the Spirit afterwards also in the account of his life. I also agree the "unutterable gushings of my heart" does not mean that he spoke in tongues, even if many Charismatics say that Finney meant that was speaking in tongues, it is not.
His account of his conversion is rather amazing though. It seems that the Christian Church has lost an aspect of true repentance in conversion when one reads his journals.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-03-2005, 10:11 PM

Moody and Torrey would encounter a stodgy religious environment in those days of theological "higher criticism" where many were unsaved and perhaps in the process of getting saved. They might have been taking by surprise if and when they encountered tongues. Where did Moody and Torrey ever personally speak in tongues? When calling for a pentecostal experience, did they literally mean a rushing sound of a mighty wind and cloven flames of fire resting on their heads and for foreigners in their midst from may nations to hear in their own language? Not literally. He could have been pleading with the unsaved. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the necessary ingredient of anyone becomming a Christian. Your camp will seize upon the idea of Miraculous Gifts when the reality is Spiritual Gifts, or ministering gifts. Bill Gothard lists the Spiritual Gifts as Preaching, Teaching, Serving, Exhortation, Giving, Administration, and Mercy. Any Christian should have the talent to be able to fit into any one or more of those categories for their place within the Body of Christ. Pharoah's magicians could perform miracles also. Budhists, American Indians, and many other pagans speak in tongues. It is not unique to apostates who call themselves "Christian." Witches cast spells... so can you!

easeltine (easeltine)

07-03-2005, 10:46 PM

The other fact is that Torrey was very upset with the founder of Pentecostal ideas Parham, who had evil fruits in his life. William Seymour, who learned from Parham had better fruits in his life. Fruits is more of an important part to a Christian's life than Gifts. The verses where Jesus talks to people who come to Him at the end of time practicing Gifts without Fruit is evidence of this.

The fact remains that Torrey says, "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an operation of the Holy Spirit distinct from and subsequent and additional to His regenerating work." He is very specific about this, and so is the wording that D.L. Moody talks about.

Moody and Torrey never spoke in tongues.
Moody thouugh actually said that he saw no reason for an experience just like Pentecost to his students.

Bill Gothard's position has changed dramatically in the past years. I believe he wrote that teaching with a now deceased person by the name of Pastor Steele of Valley Bible Church in Campbell, CA. Friends of mine who have gone to recent Crusades say he has talked about praying for "christians" for deliverance. He even has talked about a person on his staff who has the Gift of Tongues in writing different languages, not knowing the language and being able to write in it. This is what my friends are telling me, you understand.

There is Pentecostal/Charismatic witchcraft in these churches. No doubt about it. The words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 25:31-46 is applicable to these types of phenomenom.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-03-2005, 10:54 PM

Now here is one that is interesting to me, expecially coming form a sort of non-Calvinist ideology.

Regarding the verse 1 Corinthians 14:5, "I wish that you all spoke in tongues..."
John Calvin wrote the following in his Commentary on the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians, Volume 1, p.437:

"...there are at present great theologians, who declaim against them with furious zeal. As it is certain that the Holy Spirit has here honored the use of tongues with never-dying praise, we may very readily gather, what is the kind of spirit that actuates these reformers, who level as many reproaches as they can against the pursuit of them."

turtle (turtle)

07-04-2005, 02:34 AM

Easel time would you help me on the topic of Can a minister loose his annointing. I to a feeling you see how one person perceive things more clearly. Sorry off topic.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-09-2005, 08:44 AM

I have talked about the ideas of Charles Finney, D.L. Moody, and R.A. Torrey on how they believed in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also wanted to present here another aspect that went into the ideas of Pentecostalism and that is the Adventist ideas. William Miller was one of the first Adventist and was noted for his mistake of teaching in the physical coming of Jesus Christ in the year 1844. The Adventist practiced holiness in preparation for Chirst’s soon return.

Ellen G. White is the founder of the Seventh Day Adventist and in 1888 she wrote a book called, “The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan,” (a church history book). Following are some quotations from the book that shows some of thinking of the time that led to Pentecostalism. These ideas influenced William Seymour the founder of the Azusa Street Pentecostal outpouring in 1906. It seems rational to believe in these ideas:

“Scripture plainly teaches that these promises, so far from being limited to apostolic days, extend to the church of Christ in all ages. The Saviour assures His followers, “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” Matthew 28:20. And Paul declares that the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit were set in the church “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” Ephesians 4:12,13”

“In immediate connection with the scenes of the great day of God, the Lord by the prophet Joel has promised a special manifestation of His Spirit. Joel 2:28. This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost: but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.”

“The work will be similar to that of the Day of Pentecost. As the “former rain” was given, in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the opening of the gospel, to cause the upspringing of the precious seed, to the “latter rain” will be given at its close for the ripening of the harvest. “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.” Hosea 6:3. “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain.” Joel 2:23. “In the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh.” “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Acts 2:17,21.

The great work of the gospel is not to close with less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. The prophecies which were fulfilled in the outpouring of the former rain at the opening of the gospel are again to be fulfilled in the latter rain at its close. Here are “the times of refreshing” to which the apostle Peter looked forward when he said: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus.” Acts 3:19,20.

Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers. Satan also works, with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Revelation 13:13. Thus the inhabitants of the earth will be brought to take their stand.”

bear (bear)

07-10-2005, 04:16 AM

The Fact that 80% of all christians around the world believe in the gifts, should say something.

There are many who have perverted the use, however, that does not negate the fact that they are for today.

In my ministry travels to other countries, I have concluded that they do not have a hang up on this subject as we do here in the USA.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-10-2005, 05:24 AM

My girl goes to a school where most of the teachers and faculty are graduates from a nearby dispensationalist Bible College.

They read books that talk about magic, and they have no fear of the magic. They seem like they believe that the Devil has no power in the world today. When I complain they stop reading the trash.

The point is magic is not as evil to them as somebody operating with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The say they believe in eternal security, and that Satan cannot touch them, so why not press in and receive the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?
As R.A. Torrey said about the Baptism with the Holy Spirit:

"...It is the impartation of supernatural power of gifts in service, and sometimes one may have rare gifts by the Spirit's power and few graces." 1 Cor. 13:1-3 Pg. 273

AND

"...If any believer in any age does not have the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, it is solely because he does not claim his privelege in Christ." Pg. 278

What the Bible Teaches by R.A. Torrey 1898

wyoming (wyoming)

07-10-2005, 09:37 AM

Erich,

The baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit is posessed by ALL Christians the moment they repent and become regenerate children of God. We are born again with/by the Holy Spirit.

Again, these guys were holding revivals in churches where, in Finney's word, less that half of those who attended church were saved people. The Holy Spirit ITSELF is "the gift of the Holy Spirit". If Ephesians 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" says that there is only one baptism for the church, which one does it have to be? There is no second baptism!!! Do you believe your Bible?

--Alan.

Moody and Torrey would encounter a stodgy religious environment in those days of theological "higher criticism" where many were unsaved and perhaps in the process of getting saved. They might have been taking by surprise if and when they encountered tongues. Where did Moody and Torrey ever personally speak in tongues? When calling for a pentecostal experience, did they literally mean a rushing sound of a mighty wind and cloven flames of fire resting on their heads and for foreigners in their midst from may nations to hear in their own language? Not literally. He could have been pleading with the unsaved. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the necessary ingredient of anyone becomming a Christian. Your camp will seize upon the idea of Miraculous Gifts when the reality is Spiritual Gifts, or ministering gifts. Bill Gothard lists the Spiritual Gifts as Preaching, Teaching, Serving, Exhortation, Giving, Administration, and Mercy. Any Christian should have the talent to be able to fit into any one or more of those categories for their place within the Body of Christ. Pharoah's magicians could perform miracles also. Budhists, American Indians, and many other pagans speak in tongues. It is not unique to apostates who call themselves "Christian." Witches cast spells... so can you!

The reason there is so much conflict in the charismatic movement is because it isn't built on solid ground -- it has no solid ground!

(Message edited by Wyoming on July 10, 2005)

easeltine (easeltine)

07-11-2005, 12:38 AM

Rees Howells - Intercessor 1852 Norman Grubb

Chapter 5 - The Holy Ghost takes possesion.

pg. 35
Year 1906 - Three years after his salvation

"The meeting with the Holy Ghost was just as real to Rees Howells as his meeting with the Savior those years before. "I saw Him as a Person apart from flesh and blook, and He said to me, 'As the Savior had a body, so I dwell in the cleansed temple of the believer. I a a Person. I am God, and I am come to ask you to give your body to Me that I may work through it. I need a body for My temple (1 Cor. 6:19), butr it must belong to Me without reserve, for two persons with different wills can never live in the same body. Will you give me yours? (Rom. 12:1). But if I come in, I come as God, and you must go out (Col. 3:2,3). I shall not mix Myself with yourself.'

pg. 39
"Within an hour the Third Person of the Godhead had come in. He gave Rees the word in Hebrews 10:19, "Having therefore boldness to enter into the Holiest by the blood of Jesus." "Immediately," said Rees, "I was transported into another realm, withing that sacred veil where the Father, the Savior and the Holy Ghost live."

pg. 40
"But during the meeting Rees stood up and told them clearly and calmly that he was calling them to be wittnesses that the Holy Ghost, who had entered the Apostles on the day of Pentecost, had entered him and would produce similar results."

**********

Alan,

The theological position you are taking regarding The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is held by Vineyard and Peter Wagner. They say that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are the release of the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:5 was part of our Scripture reading this morning in our home church. There are Scriptures showing that there are other Baptisms.
Acts 2, 8, 10, 19 and Hebrews 6:2 all talk about other Baptisms, and are the Scriptures that Charles Finney, R.A. Torrey, D.L. Moody, Rees Howells, Pentecostals, and Charismatics get that there is another Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is a matter of interpretation.

1. D.L. Moody, Rees Howells both stated that there was no reason not to expect the same results as the day of Pentecost when one is Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

2. Better get a more updated Bill Gothard Leadership material. He believes in more Gifts of the Spirit now, such as Speaking in Tongues. I think this is the one written with Paul Steele, IF I AM CORRECT it shows a mother's response to an infant on what the particular Gift of the Holy Spirit are like. It is sort of like this on the definition of the Gift of Prophecy - Now little Johnny the milk is going to fall off the high chair if you keep doing that.

Alan,

My girl goes to a school where most of the teachers are graduates of Masters Bible College. They read the kids magic/witchcraft, they don't believe that Satan really has any power anymore. Besides, the kids are protected by Jesus, eternal security etc. I complain, they knock it off. To the Dispensationalist all Charismatics/Pentecostals that practice sign Gifts of the Holy Spririt, esp. speaking in tongues have demons. If they have demons they are not saved, according to their theology.
To be honest the basic Doctrinal Salvation message of a Charismatic/Pentecostal is not much different than a Fundamentalist or a Dispensationalist. If the Charismatic/Pentecostal has the requirements of basic Christianity, then according to the Fundamentalist or Dispensationalist they are eternally secure, but they cannot be because Gifts are not for today and they practice them, therefore they have a demon. If I want to become a Fundamentalist or a Dispensationalist I cannot get rid of my demon, because they don't believe in the power Gifts of the Holy Spirit anymore.

Conclusion: To the Fundamentalist or Dispensationalist a person in the Occult is in a better situation then a Charismatic/Pentecostal...of course not really because there is no power of the Holy Spirit in their churches to cast any demon out.

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-11-2005, 01:37 AM

Just to review the Scriptures where all of us "charismatic-types", (except for Vineyard and others), get our ideas from:

The disciples were saved and had the indwelling Holy Spirit before the Day of Pentecost.

John 20:22 - "And when He had said this He breathed on them and said to them, "Recieve the Holy Spirit."
Meets the requirements of salvation found in Romans 10:9 - Indwelling of the Spirit, not Baptized in the Holy Spirit. This took place in Acts 2.

Thomas wasn't there in John 20:22, in John 20:28 "Thomas answered Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Meets the requirements of salvation found in Romans 10:9 and was indweled by the Holy Spirit according to 1 Corinthians 12:3 that states that no one can say "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

The Disciples, around 120 of them, were Baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Peter makes it clear that this is for the "Last Day" repeating the prophecy of Joel. In Acts 2:38 Peters says a. Repent. b. Be Baptized. c. Recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The disciples were all speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 8:14-17 In the first part of this Chapter 1-14 the Scriptures states that they believed and were baptized. vs. 15,16 says, "...who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." Simon could tell that these people had received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:44-48 In this particular case the Gentile Church Believes, Receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then gets Water Baptized. Everyone knew they had received the Gift of the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues and prophecied.

Acts 19:1-7 - In the last part of Acts 18 Apollos taught the church of Ephesus, but he had to be taught accurately the things regarding Jesus by Aquila and Priscilla. One of the things they probably taught him about was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
In this particular instance the disciples at the church of Ephesus had believed, but had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. vs. 5 says that when the Apostles told them about Jesus and then they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. vs. 6 says, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Hebrews 6:2 - "instructions about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead..."

Ephesians 4:5 can be taken as meaning that there is only one Baptism into the body of Christ.

1 Cor. 13 - From my point of view the interpretation of this Chapter is that we need the Gifts of the Holy Spirit until we are perfect or face to face with Jesus Christ, not the other way around. You guys have it reversed. I am not going to take my scissors and cut away Acts and 1 Cor. 12-14...no way!

Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

That sound like we need Apostles and Prophets still today because the body of Christ has not reached "unity in the faith" are not "mature" have not attained the "whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

I see these Scriptures reversed the Dispensationalist viewpoint.

Erich

bear (bear)

07-11-2005, 03:52 AM

Wyoming,

You are not rightly dividing the word when you seperate the spirit baptism of salvation, and the baptism of Acts 1:8.

There is a difference, and a exegetical study of this issue will prove this statement to be factual.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-11-2005, 07:52 AM

Ephesians 4:5 can be taken as meaning that there is only one Baptism into the body of Christ.

Exactly! Ephesians is generally accepted as a guidebook about the church. Eph. 4:5 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" is a broad statement for the church. It is a proof text. Anyone who rightly divides, must reconcile that there is only one baptism and it MUST be the baptism of the Holy Spirit which ALL Christians possess. When you further rightly divide, you must keep this in mind. But the charismatics find ways of dancing around it, for fear of giving up their "experiences" at the expense of dis-believing the Bible. You should go back and restructure you false exegesis. I've reconciled the whole argument so that there is no conflict in rightly dividing. Have you?

These articles explain my position at one of my web sites:

"Saved By Dry Baptism"
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/baptism.htm

"Baptism, Church, Kingdom"
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/edbap.htm

"Do All Speak With Tongues"
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/Do%20All%20Speak%20With%20Tongues.htm

easeltine (easeltine)

07-11-2005, 03:45 PM

Bear,

You said there was differences and I think that the first part could have been worded better?

Alan,

I can only speak for what I believe.

Snip - "This is the "ONE baptism" - "the operation of God" - that remaineth after the close of the Acts period." Maurice Johnson

It is of course based on the ideas of Dispensationalism regarding the interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 and Eph. 4 that leads one to a conclusion that a person cannot base any theology on the book of Acts.
*
Hebrews 6:2 - "instructions about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead..."
The verse says, "baptisms"
*
I do not have any problems taking my theology from the part of Scripture called The Acts of the Apostles.
*
Therefore to reconcile Ephesians 4:5 with the different baptisms found in Acts and Hebrews 6:2, I submit that according to Eph. 4:5 there is only One Baptism into the body of Christ, and I hold that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is another baptism distinct and additional to regeneration.
*
All true believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (Thomas in John 20), have been Baptized into the Lord Jesus, but not all believers have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Erich

wyoming (wyoming)

07-11-2005, 05:27 PM

Therefore you conclude that there are two baptisms for the church today!

Your "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a second baptism. My "baptism of the Holy Spirit" contends that EVERY born again child of God has the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and that anything else is modern error. The charismatic "experience" is deception and even witchcraft and dis-stablizes those who claim to be part of the Church.

Yes, I know, there is a baptism by fire, a baptism unto death, and ceremonial cleansings and washings in the Jewish temple -- and such as for the Ethiopian prosylyte, etc.

I'm not much for a strict constructionist systematic theology for dispensationalism. However, we must recognize that there are different "rules" [sic] under law and under grace that we must take into account when rightly dividing scripture: who is speaking, who is being spoken to, etc. Before Jesus died on the cross, we were still under the Law. The apostles did not have the H.S. discernment until Pentecost. There is scripture reference that they now began to understand things that Jesus said to them. It takes almost the entire period of the book of Acts for the apostles to understand the difference between Jew and gentile believer. It takes Paul to explain what the Law could not do, etc. Questions are brought up in the early epistle to the Galatians. Paul has the answers in Romans. Later, Hebrews shows maturity in understanding. The Acts period is a transition period in the maturation of the Church -- until "that which is "perfect" [teleios, mature] is come". When the apostles are gone, at the end of the book of Acts, the miracles cease. This is the traditional view. The charismatic view is only about 150 years old, compared to almost 2000 years for the Church. Next you will tell me that this is an outpouring of the H.S. in the last days as in Joel, which context refers to the last days of the tribulation. "Last day" in the original languages can refer to the end of any period or event. "Last days" is not lumped together into one sacrosanct event reserved only for Eschatology.

(Message edited by Wyoming on July 11, 2005)

easeltine (easeltine)

07-11-2005, 09:55 PM

Wait a minute Alan!
The charismatic view is the view of the entire history of the Catholic Church that you have thrown out all history of.

Alan has presented his view. My view isn't much different then the official Assembly of God or Foursquare websites. Assembly of God has a super website with questions and answers regarding this particular subject.

yaakov (yaakov)

07-11-2005, 10:56 PM

Wyoming

Yes, I know, there is a baptism by fire, a baptism unto death, and ceremonial cleansings and washings in the Jewish temple

No, Judaism doesn’t have any baptisms in our synagogues. We don’t set anyone on fire or kill anyone, either.

The ritual bathing (mikveh) occurs elsewhere, not in synagogue during services. It is done privately.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-11-2005, 11:47 PM

.

Tell us about the Mikveh, also the divers cleansings and washings in the Temple in Jerusalem; and for prosylytes.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-12-2005, 12:00 AM

Erich,

I've studied Church History both formally and informally. The true catholic [universal] Church has survived in spite of almost 1700 years of Roman Catholicism; they've run parrallel. What is your inferrence?

--Alan.

arron (arron)

07-12-2005, 12:08 AM

wyoming.. the HOLINESS CHURCH is not deceived neither is it whichcraft and it does not practice withcraft or deception.. the one who do are the one who are always spouting off about being saved forever regardless of what you do .. that is deception and witchcraft

easeltine (easeltine)

07-12-2005, 02:45 AM

Alan,

"...I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."

Ok, I am stating as a matter of historic fact that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have been in the true, Christian, catholic church ever since the Apostolic Age.

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-12-2005, 03:04 AM

I wanted to make a historic point that should have already been made at Factnet and I cannot see any Pentecostal that has made the point. The fact is that Pentecostalism was popular and worldwide before Aimee Semple Mac Pherson. The two "Revivals" that really set Pentecostalism, (and the idea of the secondary Baptism of the Holy Spirit), was the Welsh Revival in 1904, (Rees Howells above), and the Azusa Street Revival in 1906 in Los Angeles the minister being William Seymour. Parham was involved in teaching the Doctrine and was not good, but Seymour is the real man of God who took the heat.

Alan, since you like history, you should travel a few miles from your home and visit the little house on Bonnie Brae Street in downtown Los Angeles kept up by the Pentecostal Historical Society. A foundational building of the Pentecostal movement. Even nearer your house would be for you to go and see the beautiful stained glass windows in Angelus Temple built in the 20's. Angelus Temple is a wonderful piece of architecture and has exhibits in the front like leg braces from the 20's where people were healed. If you look out you can see the huge buildings that the Foursquare Church is using to help people in the inner city. There are thousands of youth that come from the inner city area on youth night.

If you are really adventurous, and I have not done this, you could go to South Central and see the 30 million dollar First Church of God in Christ that Magic Johnson and Denzel Washington contributed 10 million a piece to build.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-12-2005, 08:42 PM

I've been through Angeles Temple and Life Bible College. Where's First Church of God in Christ? I live just outside of Portland, Oregon, where I work. I go to So. Cal. to visit family.

It's been nice that you and I can disagree agreeably. Most folks on FactNet are easily offended, and contentious.

It's been a pleasure,

arron (arron)

07-12-2005, 11:51 PM

perhaps the reason is you call them witches and deceivers

wyoming (wyoming)

07-13-2005, 01:41 AM

Would you like me to respond?...

The Charismatic Movement has done the most to cause confusion and division in the church. This counterfeit of the scripturally defunct tongues, as I've already explained on several FactNet threads, is a latter day delusion which is very, very recent abhorition in church history and many non-JudeoChristian pagan religions have speaking in tongues also. It is not exclusive to the Charismatic Movement. Therefore if the pagan religions can have it, it has an element of invalidation and illegitimacy among folks who call themselves Christian. That's my opinion based upon study and not upon anyone's claims of a pentacostal experience. I don't expect you to agree with me and I wouldn't want you to agree with me just because I say so. I invite you to rightly divide God's Word before any other consideration.

arron (arron)

07-13-2005, 02:38 AM

i do rightly devide GODS WORD ... THE BIBLE.. tongues are for today as is the HOLY SPIRIT OR HOLY GHOST. I AM SAVED. I AM SANCTIFIED I DO HAVE THE INFILLING OF the holy ghost... i am not deceived and i am not involved in witchcraft. THE HOLINESS CHURCH is real right and is still going on for THE LORD. .. NO I DONT CARE WEATHER YOU RESPOND OR NOT FOR I HAVE READ YOUR UNGODLY POSTS ALREADY

arron (arron)

07-13-2005, 02:40 AM

oh yes i am sorry that i did not captilize THE HOLY GHOST.. WHEN SPEAKING OF THE INFILLING... MY MISTAKE

infoman (infoman)

07-13-2005, 03:08 AM

wyoming,

"You shall receive POWER after the Holy Ghost has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses......"Jesus said in Acts 1:8

Mark 16:17
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

The dead frozen chosen church without any power of the Holy Spirit, no miracles, no Gifts of the Spirit in operation, no evidence of the power of God, and boring church is lame.

The church of the high steeple frozen people have no POWER in operation or in demonstration.
Living below the privledges Jesus paid the highest price to purchase.

The NORM is seeing the blind see, the sick healed, and multitudes of captives set free.

The Bible shows 23 benefits to a personal prayer language of speaking singing and praying in tongues. Romans 8:26-37 is just one. Jude 20 another. 1Cor14 show many. (I am not talking about the Gift of Tongues and interpretation operating in a group meeting or service).

Praying in tongues for youself is perfect prayer Romans 8:26-27 (according to the will of God) and perfect praise 1Cor14(verily you give thanks well) we sensitise ourselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit and can discern Gods will, we understand scripture easier, etc. are just some of the many things God gives us here for our benefit. We don't need the Gifts of the
Spirit in heaven. We need them here.
I have been praying in tongues for a couple of decades and it has helped me immeasurably. I was a sinner of sinners before Christ and I never saw anyone speaking in tongues in the occult or anywhere else back in the world.

Satan hates tongues. He can't understand what we pray and he knows we are doing many benefits aided by the Holy Spirit when we pray in tongues.

"JESUS IS THE SAME YESTERDAY
TODAY
AND FOREVER" Hebrews 13:8

bear (bear)

07-13-2005, 03:11 AM

Eastline,

You are entitled to your opinion. I meant my statement in a constructive manner.

Wyoming,

I agree that many pent. movements have caused confusion; many who come out of holiness church's, for example, take an extreme view of the gifts of the Spirit.

Eastline has done a great Job of explaining what I believe, so it would be redundant to restate. I do wish to make a few other comments:

1. Hebrew 6 speaks of the basic christian doctrines. Vs 2 speaks about the doctrine of "baptisms". The Greek word there is "baptismos", and it is the only place in scriptre where it is placed.

2. In John 20:19-23 Jesus has commissioned his disciples for the ministry. In vs 22 he breathes on them and says "receive the Holy Spirit." All reputable scholars tell us that this is the moment when those present received their salvation.

3. These same people were present in Acts 1, before his assension, and were instructed to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit. This filling was to bring power, or a better def. of the Greek word dunamis "ability", to be witnesses for him. All through Acts we see where people were saved, water batized, and then filled with the HS.

4. There is not one place in scripture that supports the early church as a transitional period. Not even the beloved 1 Corithians 13, that is slaughtered to fit that particular theological position. The maturity, or completness takes place when Jesus returns, not with the cannonization of the text.

Your study of toungues is interesting. I wounder if you hold the same view as John MacArthur? Dr. M. actually contradicts his own teachings, concerning 1 Cor 14, in his own study bible.

I believe in toungues; I pray in toungues every day according to 1 Corinthians 14 In 1 Cor. Paul seperated toungues as a personal prayer language and toungues spoken in a meeting of believers. I do not, however support the wierd practices that are associated with most charismatic church's. Most of the antics are flesh or power of suggestion. That does not, however, negate the validity of what God is doing around the world.

Many believe as you, they associate the demonic pagan babble with authentic HS toungues.

What is your view about toungues and their usage in the early church? Please comment, for I am truly interested.

Aaron,

All the raving in the world does not prove one thing. Back it up with some solid proof

infoman (infoman)

07-13-2005, 03:15 AM

arron (arron)

07-13-2005, 03:30 AM

i do back up my salvation.. i live for THE LORD i know i am saved by faith i am not around you ( as far as i know although our adds say we are in the same area maybe not imediate) so i dont suppose you will ever be able to know unless you saw something i did or dont do.. i do not beleive works saves me but i am glad that i do have the works that i should have

bear (bear)

07-13-2005, 04:30 AM

Arron,

I was not questioning your salvation, nor was I saying that you needed to back that up, and I never said anything about works. Also, that was not meant as an attack, but rather an encouragement.

I am a critical thinker, so is wyoming. My point was that you need to use more than just your inside feelings to support what you believe.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-13-2005, 05:43 AM

Alan,

That huge First Church of God in Christ is somewhere in South Central.

The posts are strong comments against Dispensationalism that have been going through my mind all day.
Dispensationalism disregards all the teachings of faith, regarding the supernatural answers of our prayers, including the words of Jesus:
Faith In Prayer
Matt. 9:20-22, Mark 5:24-34, Luke 8:43-48, Matt. 9:27-31, Matt: 15-21-28, Mark 10:46-52, Luke 18:35-43, Luke 5:17-26, Luke 8:49-56, Luke 13:48, Mark 16:15-18, James 1:5-7, Mark 11:22-25, 1 John 5:14,15 1 John 3:21-24.

Dispensationalism is like a different Jesus, a different Gospel that is talked about in 2 Cor. 11:4
Dispensationalism takes away the joy of the Holy Spirit Rom. 14:17-18, 1 Pet. 1:8
Dispensationalims has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. 2 Tim. 3:5
Dispensationalism is a person shrinking back. Hebrews 10:36-11:1

We can debate this in a nice way without getting personal about it. There is too much of that on FactNet.
Chuck Swindoll and even a teacher of Multanomah Bible College have taught at Promise Keepers.

The statement you make that really disturbs is: "The charismatic "experience" is deception and even witchcraft and dis-stablizes those who claim to be part of the Church."

1. To make a blanket statement about ALL Charismatics/Pentecostals is like the Pharisees if any of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are present in Charismatics/Pentecostals. There are true Gifts of the Spirit found, even a hyper-Dispensationalist should not go that far. Ryrie in his book on The Holy Spirit would never go that far. He even stated that Pentecostalism came because of the strict structure of Dispensationalism on the Holy Spirit.

2. There is witchcraft in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles and that is the other thing that concerns me and that warning is true. The Charismatic/Pentecostal needs deliverance, the Word etc.

Wilfred Meloon in his book, "We've Been Robbed", said:
The Church with the Word and without the Spirit will dry up.
The Church with the Spirit and without the Word will blow up.
The Church with the Word and the Spirit will grow up.

My opinion is that you should not be so dogmatic on that statement.

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-13-2005, 07:55 AM

I like this statement by Bear:

"There is not one place in scripture that supports the early church as a transitional period. Not even the beloved 1 Corithians 13, that is slaughtered to fit that particular theological position."

In all these discussions regarding Dispensationalism I have only seen two verses of Scripture used to support this Doctrine, 1 Cor. 13:10 was slaughtered to death, putting a microscope on one word of one verse is one of them.

Erich

wyoming (wyoming)

07-13-2005, 08:40 AM

Bear,

The fact is that "when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven (not from the people) as of a rushing mighty wind (not like a herd of cattle), and it filled all the house where they were sitting (not lying down in a hypnotic or possessed condition). And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire (There was no fire. Instead of appearing as a dove as He had done when coming upon the Lord Jesus, here the Holy Spirit appears in the form of "cloven tongues like as of fire.") The baptism with fire that John the Baptist spoke of is to take place when Christ returns "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." - 2 Thes. 1:7-10. In other words, no believer in Christ has, or ever will be "baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire." The fire is only for the Christ-rejecter.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." - Acts 2:4. Please note very carefully that the miraculous sign here was that the unbelieving, Christ-rejecting Jews could understand every word without an interpreter. But with Christians it was always necessary to have someone present who had "the gift of interpretation of tongues" because tongues were not intended as signs except to unsaved Israel. - 1 Cor. 14:18-24.

Acts 2:8, "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born." The miracle was in the hearing, not the speaking.

It should also be noted that the messages given in tongues were concerning "the wonderful works of God." - Acts 2:11.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-13-2005, 09:35 AM

Are you guys trying to tell me that I don't have the Holy Spirit, the Holy spirit not working in me, and that I don't produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit in ministering to others, and they wouldn't see the Holy Spirit in me anyway? Am I not a born again child of God because I don't speak in tongues nor claim the apostolic miracles for today? Must I pass your Charismatic test before God will accept the blood of Christ which covers me? The plan of salvation is simple. I will never affiliate with a denominationalism, but I'm willing to admit that most Christians, true Christians, are in the denominations. To you, are they all frozen steeples because they don't speak in tongues?

You people can really go bonkers when your sacred cow is offended. One time, when the Christian I used to meet with in the Los Angeles area were out street preaching [It might have been near Angeles Temple], these Charismatics didn't like what we were preaching, so they surrounded us and locked arms and ran around us like a wheel, whooping and hollaring -- what a spectacle! Could you picture Peter and Paul and the disciples doing this? What would Jesus have thought about such antics? What does he think about that now? Does it honor him?

Erich,

Have you made a red herring out of the dispensationalists? They would probably blush at the credit you give them. I've come to my conclusions by rightly dividing, the dispensationalists have nothing to do with it. If I say that there was a different program for the Jews up until the moment Jesus died on the cross, does that make me a dispensationalist? I'm sure you know the difference between Law and Grace and in Christ fulfilling the Law. Does the difference between Jew and Gentile believers enter into your rightly dividing? Don't you Post-Trib. Charismatics follow dispensation charts to some extent?

arron (arron)

07-13-2005, 02:10 PM

wyoming.. no i have friends who do not have the batisim or in filling of THE HOLY GHOST but i beleive they are saved and i dont try to say they arent.
bear.. i do try to support my beleifs beside .. inner feelings .. for feelings can deceive

cindig (cindig)

07-13-2005, 07:25 PM

Last night when I turned the T.V. on, and was flipping channels I stopped on TBN. There was a black woman, I can't remember her name, but the camera was right on her face, her eyes were bugged out. She looked scary, almost crazy. She was going 90 to nothing speaking in tongues, she got louder and faster and faster. In the background you could hear the people in the audience going nuts, like they had personally witnessed God through this woman. I was mortified! No wonder non christians think christians are nuts!

arron (arron)

07-13-2005, 09:56 PM

cindig.. i will admit that there are many abuses of the tongues, but so are there abuses of every other doctrine in any other CHURCH . you meet some who are nuts... some who are in zeal and get carried awayand some who are mixed up in things spiritual.. but i do thank GOD there cant be a conterfiet .. unless.. there is real... real... somewhere.

infoman (infoman)

07-13-2005, 11:08 PM

NEVER JUDGE JESUS AND GODS WORD BY PEOPLE People can get off and be stupid.

'GOD IS NOT MOCKED" HIs word is true whether you believe it or not.

Jesus said "The poor you always have with you"

The Bible says "People are destroyed for a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE" People need to read about the Holy
Spirit. They don't teach about the Holy Spirit much in many churches.

The Holy Spirit is all we have here both in us and everywhere. Jesus said "the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all truth"

Romans 8:14 says "As many as are led by the Sprit of God are the sons of God".

There are all kinds of people in Pauls day that needed correcting thus he wrote what we have in 1Cor14 13 and Romans 8:26:27, Romans 12, Jude 20 etc to explain and give a foundational structure how the gifts correcty operate.

"DON't throw the baby out with the bath water"

wyoming (wyoming)

07-13-2005, 11:57 PM

Infoman,

I agree 100% with the words you just wrote, just as any Christian would. We all agree that the Holy Spirit is active in the world and in our lives today. We might disagree with the scope of the Holy Spirit's activity today as compared to the Holy Spirit performing miracles through the Apostles and for the purpose of initial impact in establishing the gospel message and offering the Kingdom of God to the Jews -- which they rejected at that time. They will accept and share our Messiah in the future.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-14-2005, 12:29 AM

Alan,

I have presented the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a secondary experience. I am not as positive as most Pentecostal/Charismatics are that the prayer language of the Spirit is the only evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit. It is not my sacred cow.

Erich

yaakov (yaakov)

07-14-2005, 02:33 AM

I know that it is only a matter of time until Christians reject their false messiah and worship the one True God.

arron (arron)

07-14-2005, 03:09 AM

we do not have a false messiah. we have THE TRUE GOD

bear (bear)

07-14-2005, 07:29 AM

Cindig,

I believe that is a major source of where John MacArthur got his material for his book "Charismatic Chaos". I believe that what the womwn did was not in order.

Wyoming, I still fail to see any scriptural evidence that the early church was a transitional period.

Also, I want to point out that in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul distinguishes between tongues as a gift in a public meeting, to be followed by intrepretation, and toungues as a personal prayer language. He describes the purpose of personal prayer in vss 2&4. He also seperates them in vss 18&19.

The very unorganized charismatic church's that you have studied are being described in 1 Corinthians. The very purpose of his letter was one of correction. If Paul had to deal with this issue, so will we in our day.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-14-2005, 08:53 PM

Bear,

There is the transition in the Book of Acts from a Jewish church to a Gentile church. Please do a Google search on the “Transition in the Book of Acts” in quotes. I may or may not agree with all that is presented in the 28 references there but I just want to introduce you to the concept of the transition.

The middle wall of partition referred to Ephesians 2:14, "Even the law of commandments contained in ordinances." was given to Israel, as God's distinguishing line between Israel as a nation and a race and the other nations of Gentiles. But in Hebrews 8 we read it's ready to vanish away, he didn't say it had already vanished.

When Christ cried on the cross, "It's finished", there was an earthquake and a veil that was then in the temple was torn from top to bottom. When the veil of the temple was torn it means that all the physical religion, meats and drinks and divers baptisms and circumcision and all has been nailed to the cross."

Paul said in Acts 23, "I’ve continued unto this day in all good conscience.", had Timothy circumcised, Acts. 16:3; he had his head shaved with a Jewish vow, Acts 18:18; and in Acts. 21 he went into the temple, joined four Jews that had a vow, and went through one of the water baptisms, Jewish purification rites, and went into the temple to wait until a blood sacrifice was offered. Of course Paul didn't do wrong. Why? Because God hadn't revealed it, it wasn't God's time to reveal; he left the temple standing, though it was prophesied, before the cross, it was going to be torn down. "Not one stone will be left upon another," Christ said, and it wasn't destroyed for 40 years.

The reason we don't have physical miracles today, healing, and so forth, is because they were just to confirm the Word, and as soon as all the Word was confirmed, they stopped., but it's not the whole truth. There's not the faintest hint that there was any physical miracles to confirm Paul's Epistles from the Roman prison.

The physical miracles stopped with Acts 28:28, as soon as God was through with the last natural olive branch, as soon as the message quit being given to Jew first. Then the physical miracles stopped. Paul's infirmities couldn't be healed. And then all water baptisms, meats and drinks, and divers baptisms, as well as the Jewish Passover supper stopped!

This was given 50 years ago today.
“Understanding The Book Of Acts”
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/Understanding%20Acts.htm

“God Hadn’t Revealed It Yet”
http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/God%20Hadnt%20Revealed.htm

When Christ returns, or Messiah appears and delivers Israel, He restores Israel as the center of things and there won't be a church as we know it today.

(Message edited by Wyoming on July 14, 2005)

bear (bear)

07-15-2005, 04:25 AM

Help me to understand your background; denomination, etc

wyoming (wyoming)

07-15-2005, 07:43 AM

Bear,

I'll try to make it brief but very complete... I was born in Massachusetts in 1943 and raised to be a nominal Roman Catholic. At age 12 my family moved to Los Angeles. I went to church once in a while. In the Army my buddy and I used to go into D.C. on weekends and I would go with him to Church. I enjoyed singing the hymns.

When I got out of the Army I wanted to go back to church but the Catholic church didn't sing the hymns so I went across the street to the Congregational church because they had a great music program -- I was a music major in college for a while. They grabbed me for the church choir. We did the heavy choral works and sang beautiful anthems every week. The preaching was not evangelical but the words and emotions of the music spoke to my heart. I caught the drive time gospel message on my car radio and I was profoundly saved. I led the college/career group at church. We got some evangelical ministers for a while until they were ran off. I left too, and I had already started Bible college with the Campbelites. I met my first wife in the Congregational church. She did not have the commitment that I had and she divorced me.

In Bible college I was going through the Bible in depth and I could see that the churches were falling short of what they should be according to the Bible. I had lived in the dorm with the sons of the preachers and Church elders and I heard all the horror stories of what was going on in the so-called churches. I would study the Bible and think about the "churches" and ask myself, "What's wrong here?" If we were all being trained in college to sell the holy spirit, how come we weren't getting holy spirit results? The serious implications of that question would lead me to further conclusions. Maybe the Holy Spirit isn't in it.

I'd go to big popular seemingly successful churches and get deeply involved only to discover that it was show biz, big money, and circus maximus. Also, it was like they were trying to structure the holy spirit to conform to their program. I decided to scrap my ministerial degree and get an honest living.

I became knowlegeable about cults and the subtle pagan practices that were amagalmated into the so-called churches, starting with Roman Catholicism. When Luther came out of the RCC not all of Roman Catholicism came out of him, and similarities were carried into the other denominations. I studied about Freemasonry and the influence they have had in religion, as the result of attending a Stuart Crane seminar, who was from Detroit at that time. I found out the pagan origins of what we think of as Christian holy days when the Bible doesn't authorize such things. I decided "Woe is me"; that things were so bad that there was no place to meet decently and honoring to the Lord. Today I call those days my Elijah complex.

After coming out of organized religion, I found a substantial group of Christians in Alhambra, California, who believed the same way as me. It had to be a miracle. The only thing new to me was that there were no ordinances for Gentiles under Grace and that the New Covenant was to Israel and the House of Judah, which hasn't been fulfilled yet. That was easy because when I had taught those things, I was lacking scriptural proof as to their efficacy. The "one baptism" for Christian was not water. And how did the annual Jewish Passover get turned into a Gentile "communion Sunday"?

The group I met with refused to incorporate or take a denominational name. They got started in the 1920s when Maurice Johnson left the Methodist Ministry, then left the church he started when he realized he was commiting the same error. His sound teaching was phenominal until he retired to a convelescent home in 1972. [I arrived in 1974.] There were a series of failed ministries after him. Robert Grove hijacked the assemblies and turned them into a cult with a big split in 1985-1986. We who left the cult have a presence on FactNet. The whole ordeal is described in my letter at my web site where you can find just about anything else about my whys and wherefores. http://www.ChurchGrowth.CC I also put together the Maurice Johnson web site.

The men who have had the greatest influence on my Christian walk are Stuart Crane, Bill Gothard, Roy Masters!, and Maurice Johnson.

--Alan.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-17-2005, 04:08 AM

Alan,

I have read enough of your postings to know that you know the Scriptures well. The following teaching concerns me:

"The reason we don't have physical miracles today, healing, and so forth, is because they were just to confirm the Word, and as soon as all the Word was confirmed, they stopped., but it's not the whole truth. There's not the faintest hint that there was any physical miracles to confirm Paul's Epistles from the Roman prison.

The physical miracles stopped with Acts 28:28, as soon as God was through with the last natural olive branch, as soon as the message quit being given to Jew first. Then the physical miracles stopped. Paul's infirmities couldn't be healed. And then all water baptisms, meats and drinks, and divers baptisms, as well as the Jewish Passover supper stopped!
This was given 50 years ago today.
“Understanding The Book Of Acts”"

Church History does not agree with this teaching. It is not possible for me to throw away all the recorded physical healings of Christianity from Acts 28:28 to the present. The physical healings of God have never stopped!

The way the teaching is worded, if there was one physical healing from the Lord Jesus Christ in the past 2,000 years the above teaching would call the physical healing from the Lord Jesus Christ a healing from Satan. To ascribe a healing miracle from God to Satan would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in my understanding of the Scripture. Therefore, knowing the history of the Christian Church for 2,000 years I cannot accept this teaching.

Dispensationalism - Ok, I do have somewhat of an experience with dispensationalism from a cultish-Pentecostal-type group I was involved in when I was a teenager. It taught that the buds of the fig tree was Israel becoming a nation 1948 - The Lord would come back within a generation, (40 years), so 1948 + 40 = 1988...then we were mid-tribulationalist, to the Lord would come back in 1984. I do not care for Scofield or any teachings regarding Dispensationalism. Not the Adventist Miller's ideas of Jesus coming back in 1844 either. I think just about all Dispensationalism is from the mind of men.

Erich

wyoming (wyoming)

07-17-2005, 06:29 AM

Roman Catholicism dominated and wrote Church History for a long time, until some reformers came along. Where do you get testimony from historical documents that were published between the years 100 A.D. to 1850 A.D. [today's authors don't count] to confirm people throwing down their crutches and braces and jumping up and down claiming they have been healed in a revival meeting? Along with most evangelical Christians, I do not believe in the integrity and veracity of such claims even for today.

I'm not saying that God doesn't make intercessession in the World today. He can do anything he wants but He isn't exactly flamboyant about it.

I won't fight for the term "Dispensationalism" because it is not in the Bible. There are other words such as "Apologetics" and "Systematic Theology". I prefer the simplicity of Biblical terminology to rightly divide the Word of God. I'm not offended by those who will refer to the advent of the Law, the advent of Grace (the Church, the time of the Gentiles), the times before the Law, and the future coming of Christ the Messiah, to sit on His throne in Jerusalem, or the New Heaven and the New Earth, and I'm not offended if they CALL IT A WORD LIKE "DISPENSATIONALISM".

However, I can understand that the Pentacostal-Charismatic-Second Blessing folks would utterly despise dispensationalism because it invalidates their whole position. Miracles and tongues are no longer needed to testify of God's work now that the CHURCH AGE is established. You will listen to nothing to the contrary, like you are hanging on for dear life. You folks are just as difficult as Mormons. I'd rather deal with a Roman Catholic or a Watchtower Witness.

godchild (godchild)

07-17-2005, 07:59 AM

Unless I am mistaken someone said there are still apostles and prophets today. Will you share the names of apostles and prophets today? Also, someone spoke of a man who 'saw God face to face'. I believe it was easeltine when he was quoting some men's words in their books. Is this what you believe?

easeltine (easeltine)

07-17-2005, 03:58 PM

Godchild,

You know I have been consistent with this subject not only here but at cultbusters as well. Wyoming, or Alan could be Angel on cultbusters, he has enough Scriptural knowledge to be.

No, Charles Finney did not say he saw God face-to-face. That is one of the Scripture to use against Mormonism. Scripture says that no man has seen God face-to-face.

Alan,

I am my parent's house this weekend, so I am away from my arsenal of library books. One that comes to my head is Athanasius writings regarding Anthony. I have others.

Erich

godchild (godchild)

07-17-2005, 10:49 PM

Erich, Yes, you have been consistent. Believe me, I have a great respect for that. I agree with your answer that 'no man has seen God face to face'. That IS a major point against mormonism, which I don't want to discuss here, it's a distraction.
As for speaking in tongues, I am still studying that. 1 Corinthians 14 explains (to me) very well about it. Yet verse 39 says "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (Therefore, I pray for the gift of prophesy.) I cannot forbid or will not judge those who speak with tongues.
Verse 40 says, "Let all things be done decently and in order".
For those who covet speaking in tongues, I add the verses 9 "So like wise, ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air," and verse 23: "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
Also, verses 31 "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." (Would someone please further explain this verse for me?) Next verse: "For God is not the author (creator, so all tongues must be through the Holy Spirit in you)of confusion, but of PEACE, as in all churches of the saints.

Saying that, might I add in 1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease, whether there is knowledge, it will vanish, 9 For we know in part and prophecy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Sorry to go on so long but I find this important to share the commentary : 13:8 Love never fails: This uncompromising and bold affirmation introduces the contrast with the spiritual gifts which will not last. Paul wants the Corinthians to know that all the gifts, especially tongues, which attracted their attention so much, would no longer be needed. But love would continue forever. prophecies...will fail: The word translated fail is in the passive voice, indicating that something will cause prophecies to stop. Tongues...will cease: Unlike prophecies, tongues will simply stop (no external cause is indicated by the Greek). knowledge...will vanish away: The term translated will vanish away here is the same word translated "will fail" earlier in v.8.
13:13 Faith enables us to come to God (see Heb.11:6), but love enables us to imitate Him. 14:2 The word tranlated pursue carries such meanings as 'hasten,' 'run', 'run after,' and 'aspire to.' There are many things in life that we can simply take or leave, but LOVE is not one of them.

I think all of this goes to what Turtle asked for: unity. With love we can unify. With tongues we cannot unify. With prophesy we cannot unify. Without love there can be no unity. It is the 'loving one another' we must plead for. The others are secondary. Shouldn't our first prayer be 'let us learn to love one another'?

godchild (godchild)

07-17-2005, 11:01 PM

Above, Finney said he felt waves and waves of love gush over him.
I have never spoken in tongues. But I have experienced what he did. I have been told I was 'in the spirit'. I do not talk about this much. Medical people said it was 'shock'. What I felt may have been shock, but it was the most peaceful, joyous moment I have ever experienced. Perhaps God has limited this experience for me because I am unprepared. I do not covet it. I accept what joys God gives me and no one will ever know what those small experiences do for me. Christ is my 'Personal Savior'. In other words it's a personal thing. As easeltine said, people would think I was crazy if I said such a thing. Do we believe God gives only to men such as Finney? I do not. All we have to do is reach out and grab it.
Years ago I went to A.A. meetings. They spoke of the 'pink glow' of being sober. That is a true feeling. But not even close to the experience I felt that one time. Anyway, being in the 'pink glow' (used in an example) is something you want to hold onto. It is our self-doubt that limits us. I am perhaps more guilty of that than anyone. But I also know that I am ready for whatever God has planned for me.

godchild (godchild)

07-17-2005, 11:02 PM

I should have added, Not as a perfect person by any means, but a willing one.

grace2u (grace2u)

07-19-2005, 03:43 AM

Just curious and I have asked this question before but it was never really answered . . . between the spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues and the miraculous gifts of the early church and the rise of the charismatic/pentacostal movement in the last 150 years or so . . . are there any others that spoke in tongues and had evidence of the miraculous gifts?

turtle (turtle)

07-19-2005, 04:46 AM

Grace2u,
If you get an answer about this I will be surprised in someways. Reason I say this I have seen two types of pencostals recently. One I know without a doubt that serves God and another that did not but claimed the power of the Holy Ghost. Maybe I am too judemental about this. There are groups that manifest tongues, and are slain in the spirit, claim to be healed and people re not healed. Then I have been in a church where healing took place in my own life and seen evidence of tongues and interpetation. But this is an everyday occurence in this pencostal church. Two churches claim that God is still the same has in Acts yet one real and the other definitely false. Another note of difference in these two churches one always had confusion and the other was always filled with LOve for God and others. Definitely a difference.
And this false group is growing all over the country.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-19-2005, 03:04 PM

Gifts of Healing past Acts 28:28 or the Apostolic Age

When I have been at Promise Keepers, Harvest Crusades, (Greg Laurie), and Billy Graham Crusades there has been a confrontation with strict Dispensationalist. They have gone as far a saying that the early church fathers were Catholic liars and that the early creeds were Catholic lies. To my Lutheran friend and I these people are totally oblivious to Church history and Church doctrine, especially regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. A strict Dispensationalist would reject all Catholic history saying that is was distorted by the Roman Catholic Church.

The challenge would be to show evidence to the Dispensationalist that charismatic gifts were taking place in the church of Jesus Christ after the Apostolic Age and before the creation of the creeds and the emperor Constantine. The Nicene Creed was created in 326 AD, so the evidence needs to be before that time period. If the church of Jesus Christ understood Dispensationalism and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased it would have taken place by then, and the doctrine of the church would have reflected these ideas.

Near Alexandria Egypt there lived a man of God, a monk by the name of Antony during this time period. The writer of his biography is Athanasius. Athanasius was the right hand man to Bishop Alexander of Alexandria and together with Athanasius they fought the heretical ideas of a person by the name of Arius, the original JW. Eventually, Athanasius became the Bishop of Alexandria. Bishop Alexander, Athanasius, and Antony together fought the false doctrine of Arius, took it to the Emperor Constantine, and with the approval of the rest of the Bishops they formed the Nicene Creed. The story I am going to relate to you is found in, “The Life of Antony”, written by Athanasius around 360 AD.

Healing to the crowds – Section 14

The state of his soul was one of purity, for it was not constricted by grief, nor relaxed by pleasure, nor affected by either laughter of dejection. Moreover when he saw the crowd, he was not annoyed any more than he was elated at being embraced by so many people. He maintained utter equilibrium, like one guided by reason and steadfast in that which accords with nature. Through him the Lord healed many of those present who suffered from bodily ailments; others he purged of demons, and to Antony he gave grace in speech. Thus he consoled many who mourned, and other hostile to each other he reconciled in friendship, urging everyone to prefer nothing to the world above the love of Christ.

Here he writes about healing, deliverance, and to present day Charismatics/Pentecostals – Section 38

We ought not to boast about expelling demons, nor become proud on account of healing performed; we are not to marvel only at him who casts out a demon, and treat him with disdain him who does not. Let one learn well the discipline of each, and let either copy and emulate it, or correct it. For the performance of signs does not belong to us-this is the Savior’s work. So he said to the disciples; Do not rejoice that the demons are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven. The fact that the names are written in heaven is a witness to our virtue and manner of life, but the ability to expel demons is itself a gift from our Savior, who bestowed it. So to those boasting, not in virtue, but in signs, and saying, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name, and do mighty works in your name? He answered, ‘Amen. I say to you, I do not know you! For the Lord does not know the ways of the ungodly. Certainly one must pray, as I said earlier, to receive the gift of discerning of spirits, so that we might not, as Scripture says, believe every spirit.

A girl who was paralyzed with defective eyes – Section 58

“Go away, and you will find that she has been healed, unless she is dead. For this good deed is not mine, that she should come to me, a pitiable man; rather, her healing is from the Savior who works his mercy everywhere for those who call on him. So also in this case the Lord has granted her prayer and his benevolence has shown me that he will cure the ailment of the child where she is.” And indeed the wonder took place, and going out they found the parents exulting and the child completely healthy.

The city runs to see Antony – Section 70

And all in the city ran together to see Antony. Both Greeks and those among them who are called priests came to the Lord’s house, saying “We ask to see the man of God”-for this is what everyone called him. And there also the Lord cleansed many people of demons through him, and cured those who were mentally impaired.

Athanasius regarding his teachings of healing – Section 83

Such were the words and deeds of Antony. And we must not be incredulous because wonders of this kind were done by a man. It is the promise of the Savior, who says; If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, “Move from here to there,” and it will move, and nothing will be impossible to you. And again, Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you… Ask, and you will receive. He is the one who says to his disciples and to all who believe in him; Heal the sick… cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. Antony did, in fact, heal without issuing commands, but by praying on the name of Christ, so it was clear to all that it was not he who did this, but the Lord bringing his benevolence to effect through Antony and curing those who were afflicted.

Material is Public Domain Online at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/vita-antony.html

For the book go to Paulist Press.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-19-2005, 06:17 PM

Erich,

When you use the term Catholic, do you automatically mean Roman Catholic or do you mean the "universal" body of Christ? I think of "Church History" as not necessarily being based upon that which was recorded solely by the RCC.

By the Second Century, church history reveals heresies, offshoots, and various orders. Just like today, you might suspect that anything is possible in the hearts of religious men; Satan's been going to church for 2000 years.

Although we like to think the writings of Josephus validate the Bible, the Bible is really the highest authority and maybe the Bible should be used to validate Josephus. The writings of church history are the writings of men. They are not canononical. They merely tell of events since the Biblical writings and the disappearance of the apostles. We shouldn't build Biblical doctrine based upon non-Biblical writings. Whatever your doctrinal persuasions, you are going to be able to spin any polyglot you want out of the writings of church history. Are we to believe in Fatima and Lourdes and St. Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland?

I gave up on commentaries 30 years ago. They mostly try to inject a spin that tells you that the scriptures mean something more, or less, than they really mean. You can find any crack pot idea under the sun. You can pick and choose, AND THAT IS DANGEROUS!

The Bible is the only thing you need. When we compare scripture with scripture, we don't need any other resource but to have confidence in the translation from the original Greek. Where words become important doctrinally, some of us need to be handy with Greek grammar. The rest of us, who don't know Greek, have enough reference books which can be helpful, but we must be careful when the editors start editorializing. The further you get away from the Biblical text, credibility lessens.

Personal testimony can be valid so long as it's substance is not in conflict with the Bible. Experience can be valid so long as it's substance is not in conflict with the Bible. The Charismatic-Pentecostal Movement, born within the past 150 years, depends upon experience for self-validation. They are trying to fashion the Holy Spirit into something that it is not doing today. They are trying to lay hands upon the Holy Spirit and fashion it into a human altar that they can control. They, like Simon the Sorceror, are trying to become Peter and Paul so they can have the miraculous gifts that Christ gave to the apostles in person. "Haven't we cast out demons in your name?" "I knew you not, you workers of iniquity."

turtle (turtle)

07-19-2005, 06:53 PM

}Personal testimony can be valid so long as it's substance is not in conflict with the Bible. Experience can be valid so long as it's substance is not in conflict with the Bible. The Charismatic-Pentecostal Movement, born within the past 150 years, depends upon experience for self-validation. They are trying to fashion the Holy Spirit into something that it is not doing today. They are trying to lay hands upon the Holy Spirit and fashion it into a human altar that they can control. They, like Simon the Sorceror, are trying to become Peter and Paul so they can have the miraculous gifts that Christ gave to the apostles in person. "Haven't we cast out demons in your name?" "I knew you not, you workers of iniquity."

Wyoming this statement is true but not in all charismatic church or pencostal churches. The oness groups are a prime example of using the HOly Spirit. But not all charismtics are this way. But it seems all these groups get labele}d with it that believe in the gifts such as tongues

grace2u (grace2u)

07-19-2005, 07:56 PM

I do; however, find some commentaries beneficial even though I realize that you need to pick and select. Sometimes commentaries help us understand a truth in the bible that we have not fully understood ourselves. I'll agree that the bible is all that we need though . . . at times commentaries can be helpful though . . . particularly when dealing with issues related to customs and historic events that we may not have full knowledge about.

Thanks Erich . . . you are the first person that has tried to answer that question. I belong to a church that believes the real church co-existed parallel to the Catholic Church as Wyoming has stated. Remember though, we are talking about generalities (the group as a whole) not just individual members.

I have this handbook of denomination at home that seems to indicate that the Catholic church as we know it today is different than the early Catholic church. So this is another way to look at it.

Anyway, I have much to learn about Church History and I do appreciate your answer to my question.

Turtle,

Regarding false groups, I am becoming more and more convinced that it is our job as a Christian to concentrate on presenting the truth found in the bible and leave the business of correcting and exposing such groups to God. This is not to say that we should rebuke and reprove; however, it is our responsibility to do this biblically which means that we need to be involved with the group.

From the outside looking in . . . we would do better to warn against certain things and ground people in Christ and not specifically target ministries. God will bring such ministries down without our help. And even when we expose . . . we do this by presenting the truth. The falseness of the group or individual set against the truth will become obvious to the Christian.

I do understand what you are talking about but I just wanted to share what I think our part of this should be.

You see . . . such false groups and prophets and teachers are here for a purpose: to separate the wheat from the chaff . . . but I want to stress that it is God who will do the separating based on our own actions.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-19-2005, 08:46 PM

From my experience, the best folks to serve God in exposing cults are those who come out of the cults. Of course, they have to be a credible witness. The cult that I came out of was a viable representation of the church which is the body of Christ, for the first 40 years that they met. When our gifted minister became incapacitated, a small handful of ambitious young thugs planned how they were going to support each other in dividing up the assemblies among themselves.

The one that was the most shrewd managed to control the others and they gradually managed to displace the interim leadership over a period of years. About 30-40% of us from about a dozen assemblies across the country, got marked for pointing out that these usurpers were abandoning the gospel of Grace and becoming overlords of peoples lives and destroying families.

Takeover is gradual and it can take years to realize that you are in a cult, never mind the fact that most of the flock never realize that they have become a cult. The lucky ones get out. Those who realize it, have a Godly responsibility to expose the cult. There are many in the cult who don't say anything for fear of markings where they will be shunned by their own family.

Folks who haven't been in the cult may not know for sure that a certain group is really a cult.

grace2u (grace2u)

07-19-2005, 09:39 PM

Exactly Wyoming! You were in the perfect place to expose, rebuke, and reprove.

We do have to be careful though when we are put in such a position to make sure we do not hurt the innocent. Ultimately, even if we are in such a situation it is God that has the responsibility of being avenged. We have to make sure our perception is the correct perception. (I believe yours was Wyoming.)

Perception is a strange thing and it is influenced by our scope of knowledge and experience. We have to make sure that we are not incorrectly perceiving that something is happening when it is not. Likewise, when it is - we need to follow the biblical pattern for addressing this.

(You guys may not have issues with perception but I believe many people do.)

Blame softly, praise loudly and be sure before you speak.

God Bless,

turtle (turtle)

07-19-2005, 09:58 PM

Grace2u,
Even when we are in position to make correction of a false teaching we have to realize there is always repercussions from those in authority. And if they hve that charm and charisma it makes your task very difficult. That is why pray and meditattion on God word is so important. Keeping those lines of communication opena nd listening to God. I had to do some correcting in situation I was in. And I did it first privately then publicly when it continued. But I never realize that I was correcting tell looking back. And God always had me use his word to do this very thing. I still marvel at what God has brought me through.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-19-2005, 10:49 PM

More on credibility: On some of these threads, forinstance BILL GOTHARD and JACK VAN IMPE; although these guys might have some issues, you have some crazies going after them with a blood thirst. They are trying to outdo each other with metaphors and they have little or no facts. They are building a scenario and these guys don't deserve 90% of it. When people start their creative writing, they can create all kinds of adventures like Hollywood horror movies. They come under judgement for false accusation. Character assassination is murder.

grace2u (grace2u)

07-20-2005, 12:20 AM

And if they have that charm and charisma it makes your task very difficult.

Amen! I'm glad God has guided you through.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-20-2005, 03:08 AM

"They come under judgement for false accusation. Character assassination is murder."

I couldn't agree with you more!

I went to the Billy Graham thread and they were calling Billy Graham a liar and a crook. One person basically said that they were glad that Billy Graham was going to be in hell pretty soon!!??? It hurt me on the inside that anyone would say this about Billy Graham!

When I was a young man I went to four seminars of Bill Gothard's Basic Intitute in Youth Conflicts. The seminars helped my life! I won't go to the thread your describing knocking Bill Gothard! I know he doesn't deserve it!

easeltine (easeltine)

07-21-2005, 04:59 AM

Strict Dispensationalism
The arguments are truly unbelievable to me! The doctrine is intellectually dishonest and dangerous to a person’s spiritual soul!

The Dispensationalist asks for historical documentation that supports that miracles happened after the Apostolic Age and then when one gives it to them they answer with statements like, “They merely tell of events since the Biblical writings and the disappearance of the apostles. We shouldn't build Biblical doctrine based upon non-Biblical writings.” How unfair is that? To ask the question to show miracles from history after the Apostolic Age, and making the decision already to disbelieve anything in history that one can give to show that miracles happened after the Apostolic Age.

The Dispensationalist uses the Scriptures in Matthew that say that if we do not have Fruits of the Spirit only doing Gifts of the Spirit we will go to hell as some kind of proof text that all who do Gifts of the Spirit will go to hell. How crazy! The Apostles will not be going to hell and they did miracles.

They make statements like, “The Charismatic-Pentecostal Movement, born within the past 150 years, depends upon experience for self-validation.” Of course it’s true if you take a pair of scissors out and cut out all the movement’s Scriptural support.

The Dispensationalist asks for Scriptures to support the Charismatic/Pentecostal position and then through this Apostolic Age nonsense they cut the supporting Scriptures away from the Bible like a person taking a pair of scissors and cutting them out. One gives them all the words of Jesus regarding how much healing/signs and wonders can be produced through our faith and they answer that those Scriptures were only for the Apostolic Age. Cut. One gives them Scriptures from Acts 2, 8, 10, 19, 1 Corinthians 12-14, and they answer that those Scriptures were only for the Apostolic Age. Cut. The Dispensationalist calls it “rightly dividing the Word of Truth”, that is incorrect, it is different math, “it is wrongly subtracting from the Word of Truth.”

I cannot believe in Dispensationalism, it cuts away Scriptures, the Bible says,
“And if any man shall take away from the word of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.” Revelations 22:19

In making the decision that there are no miracles from Christians after the Apostolic Age the Strict Dispensationalist is saying that if there are any miracles from God the miracle actually is not from God rather the miracle is from Satan. That is exactly the same sin the Pharisees did,
Matt 12:27-32
“And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house. 30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of an will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. “
The entire ideas of the Dispensationalism doctrine of Scofield can be summed up by the following Scripture:
2 Tim 3:5
“having a form of godliness but denying its power.”

grace2u (grace2u)

07-21-2005, 05:24 AM

Hey Easeltine,

I just posted to you on the MM thread. I am not Rahab and I have left you a message stating that on this thread. I have posted as Cinco de Mayo, Hillbilly and Pleasant before.

I had my reasons for changing names but I'm not going to let myself be intimidated by posters again and change my name. A lot of people were doing this on a particular thread and I foolishly joined in but have been posting as Grace2u for a little over a month or so.

Take care,

easeltine (easeltine)

07-21-2005, 07:28 AM

Grace2U,

I know you are not Rahab, nor an astronaut as well.
I was having a little fun with you...I needed a break in the action. Thanks for understanding.

The Charismaniac,

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-21-2005, 07:36 AM

Strict Dispensationalism

When I have been to Promise Keeper, the Harvest Crusade, and the Billy Graham Crusade there has been a small clan of Dispensationalist. They call all the teachers and evangelists at the events false teachers. They base their conclusions on the following reasons: A. The allowance of all Christian denominations means the events believe in the “ecumenical movement”, a false unity of all Christians. B. The allowance of Roman Catholics in the events means to the Dispensationalist that the events agree with the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church. C. People are using a different Translation then the KJV, the “Textus Receptus”, (forgetting Erasmus, a Roman Catholic, did the Textus Receptus). D. The allowance of Charismatics/Pentecostals into the events, you can actually see, (heaven help us), people raising their hands in worship.

The tracts that the Dispensationalist passes out at these events calls the “early Church Apostolic fathers Catholic liars”, and the “early Church Creeds Catholic lies.”
There is no explanation on the tracts exactly what they mean by these statements. For example: The Apostles Peter, Paul, and John were early Church Apostolic fathers. Are they making that statement that the Apostles are liars? The Bibles says in Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heard that God has raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Jesus is Lord is a short Creed, I hope they think that this Creed can be true. The fact of the matter is that the Old Roman, Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds are truth because they are Biblically supportable. They are not lies! They explain the Trinity.

The Catholic Church
The church in 326 AD at the time of Constantine is far different then the Roman Catholic Church today. The papacy doesn’t begin until Pope Gregory around 600 AD, before that time the head church leader in Rome was the Bishop of Rome. Most evangelical Christians hold the following early church fathers in high esteem, not Scripture itself, but solid teachings:
Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Athanasius.
The true Church of Jesus Christ was within the Roman Church.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-21-2005, 08:47 AM

The examples you provide -- A, B, C, D -- do not define Dispensationalism. This is a red herring! Like I've said before, the reason you demonize Dispensationalists is because they are the ones most likely to say that the miraculous gifts, which were a witness to attract unbelieving Jews, were done away when the apostles left the scene and the Church came of age.

Constantine united the Empire by amalgamating the religions and ending up with a pagan form of worship. Look at the origin of the pagan holidays and see how they entered the so-called church. Jewish style ordinances and rituals entered in. That's your RCC.

The true church has only been partially within the Roman Church. It exists irrespective of the Roman Church. Some (most) of the Church (the spiritual body) exists in all the denominations, in spite of the denominations, wherever there are true believers.

grace2u (grace2u)

07-21-2005, 11:09 AM

I did at one time, want to be an astronaut when I was a child.

Seems I have arrived. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

God Bless,

(Now I'm going to jump to another computer)

LOL! - Sorry, it would have seemed funny to me had I said it . . . just didn't catch it.

turtle (turtle)

07-21-2005, 01:02 PM

Let me ask a dumb question. Do dispensationalist not realize that gift of preaching and teaching are in the church. Why did they not disappear. Why did not the gift of helps? Why only the gift of tongues and not all gifts? I know read Corinthians 13. But if tongues was evident in the old testament when the elders spoke in tongues and prophesied why would they be gone today. In heaven we won't have that need for tongues we will be with Christ.

To say there is no healing is to say God does not answer prays. Says doctors do it. Saying there are no gifts of tongues is limiting God to work through us. WE cant' limit God, but he can limit us. Not to recognize what God does is foolish.

One more thought if people at these crusades that pass out tracks about these things, They came to divide not unite in worship. Leave there correction to the street.

godchild (godchild)

07-21-2005, 04:43 PM

I have to agree with Wyoming. I went to the Catholic Encyclopedia for the following:

The word catholic (katholikos from katholou-throughout the whole, i.e. universal) and was freely used by the early christian writers in what we may call its primitive and noneccliesiastical sense.
The combination "the Catholic Church" (the Katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The words run: Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal (Katholike) church.
By the beginning of the 4th century it seems to have supplanted the primitive and more general meaning. The Catholic Church says they are the only one with the unity of meaning.

It is by claiming the name: title, catholic, that set the Catholic Church apart, while claiming a universal ecclesia.

As a Christian, I claim the original (primitive and more general meaning); "Where two or more are gathered together in my name, there am I also." And "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."

godchild (godchild)

07-21-2005, 04:47 PM

I am not a dispensationalist. I want no title; they only cause separation.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-21-2005, 06:07 PM

Turtle,

There is a difference between ministering gifts (talents) that each Christian should have. It's the miraculous gifts of healings and tongues that occured with the apostles that we say there are no apostles with apostolic authority today. It is heresy to claim than anyone today is on the same level today with Peter and Paul who were given gifts by the Lord himself to perform miracles. We are not for a moment denying that the Holy Spirit is active in the world today. We pray for the Lords will but he doesn't perform miracles for us on-demand. Christians generally and sometimes specifically see the hand of God in life's affairs.

I gave the temporary limited purpose of tongues serveral times elsewhere. I'll come back and address that later.

The RCC claims correctly that the Church is one, except that they are it.

Erich would call me a Dispensationalist but I could care less about the nomenclature. I just want to be scriptural. Call me anything you want but don't call me late to dinner.

--Alan

(Message edited by Wyoming on July 21, 2005)

godchild (godchild)

07-21-2005, 06:24 PM

I was reading Billy Graham's book "Hope for the Troubled Heart". On page 176 he says, "Being filled with the Spirit is not a one-time affair but an ongoing experience. When Paul said, "Be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18), he conveyed the idea that we "keep on being filled with the Spirit." This is not a pool of water, but an ever-flowing spring. We are to have these storehyouses that are available for our use at all times. When the resources are needed, they will be there.
So be prepared. When the "evil day" comes, we do not have to be dependant upon the circumstances around us, but rather on the resources of God!
I emphasized 'be and being' because it is not a 'work' or something that comes when we want it. It is the state of being, not doing, that we live in.

turtle (turtle)

07-21-2005, 06:32 PM

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "
(1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

So I need to chop out the gift of tongues and of healing. I dont' think so. I know who healed me, I know who saved me. And that was JESUS CHRIST my LORD. What I really think of dispensationalist is a lack of faith in God's ability to do his work through his people. And one more point the apostles are not God's or little gods. They did have more faith then we do and were the main building blocks after Christ. God established them as helping to build his church. But they still put there sandals on one foot at a time.

(Message edited by turtle on July 21, 2005)

easeltine (easeltine)

07-22-2005, 03:55 AM

I admit that my examples of A,B,C,& D are speculations of these people protesting against the events I mentioned.
I probably put Dispensationalist, 12 Tribe Guys, Chick publications on the Roman Catholic Church and Textus Receptus and mixed it all around.
Same bunch to me. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Bill Gothard is different then he was on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I even think the founder of the Foundation of Human Understanding would agree with me on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit!

wyoming (wyoming)

07-22-2005, 05:01 AM

Erich,

Roy would never agree about tongues. I've been listening to him for 35 years. I've heard him discredit concepts that go with the charismatic movement. He's a realist.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-22-2005, 07:15 AM

Alan,

I know this for sure!

Mr. Masters would have more problems with your "circus maximus" lady mentioned above then the subjects we are talking about.

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-22-2005, 08:47 AM

Turtle,

You have posted the truth!

Erich

wyoming (wyoming)

07-22-2005, 04:15 PM

Turtle,

The truth is, "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease." I Cor 13:8 We've already debated when that shall be, the purpose of tongues when they were ligitimate, and the counterfeit today.

Speaking In Tongues Always Related to Israel

But Paul said: "I thank God I speak with tongues more than you all!"
Yes, and Paul told us exactly where and why he spoke with tongues at that time. It was in fulfillment of the Jewish prophecy concerning how God was going to deal with unbelieving Israel, "this people." - Isa 28:9-12; 1 Cor. 14:18-22.

Speaking in tongues was a sign to unbelieving Jews and is never found after God breaks off the last of "the natural olive branches (Israel)." "The Jews require a sign," God promised to give the sign of tongues, and Paul said, speaking with tongues was not for the church but was a sign for unbelievers in fulfillment of God's promise in "the law," - Isa. 28:9-12; 1 Cor. 1:22; 14:18-22.

Every Bible instance of "speaking in tongues" is in connection with doubting or unbelieving Jews. - Acts 2:4-7; 10:44-46; 19:3-8.

"Perfect" Believers Have No Physical Types and Signs

"Whether there be tongues, they shall cease . . . When that which is perfect is come." - 1 Cor. 13:8-10. As soon as Paul was inspired to give Christians the revelation of their completeness in Christ (Col. 2:10-12) and the fact that God had temporarily ceased to deal with the Jewish nation, all believers were told that they were perfect in Christ and were neither "Jews nor Gentiles" but citizens of heaven. Thus, "that which is perfect" had come and tongues ceased. So also did all the "signs and wonders following." - 1 Cor. 2:6-6 (3:1-4); Phil. 3:3, 15; Rom. 11:25; Acts 28:28; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17.

Paul's letter to the over-grown "babies" at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:11-12; 3:1-4) is the last, and only, epistle where speaking in tongues is found. And, indeed, "tongues and stammering lips" was religious "baby talk" that God used dealing with unbelieving Jews before the destruction of Jerusalem. - Isa. 28:9-13; 1 Cor. 14:18-22; 13:8-11; 9:19-22.

Remember teleios means any qualitative maturity and not just perfectly perfect as in perfect in heaven, which was not articulated in the passages.

Note the clear change from Acts 2:4 to Eph. 5:17-19. In the light of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 what use has the church now for "tongues"?

turtle (turtle)

07-22-2005, 07:30 PM

Wyoming,
I do not see perfection yet in the church today or way back then. It will not come tell Christ reigns on earth.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-23-2005, 04:55 AM

"Speaking In Tongues Always Related to Israel"
"Every Bible instance of "speaking in tongues" is in connection with doubting or unbelieving Jews. - Acts 2:4-7; 10:44-46; 19:3-8."

* "And these signs WILL accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues..." Mark 16:17

* "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days and they will prophesy..." Acts 2:17-18

* "...and you will receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:39

* "The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." Acts 10:45,46

"Perfect" Believers Have No Physical Types and Signs
Thus, "that which is perfect" had come and tongues ceased. So also did all the "signs and wonders following."

* "Why do you call me good? Jesus answered, "No one is good-except God alone. Mark 10:17

* "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me, Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it...All of us who are mature should take such a view of things." Philippians 3:12-15

* "If we claim to be without sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth is no in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins..." 1 John 1:8,9

* What Jesus says regarding signs and wonders,
and regarding if you have faith.
Mark 11:22-25, Matthew 7:7-12

* Almost in all the miracles of Jesus He says that the faith of the person being prayed for heals them.

* Epistles regarding "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him." 1 John 5:14,15

* "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think that he will receive anything from the Lord, he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does." James 1:5-7

Paul's letter to the over-grown "babies" at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:11-12; 3:1-4) is the last, and only, epistle where speaking in tongues is found. And, indeed, "tongues and stammering lips" was religious "baby talk"

* "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." 1 Corinthians 14:18

* "From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise." Psalm 8:2

* "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." 1 Corinthians 14:39

Note the clear change from Acts 2:4 to Eph. 5:17-19. In the light of 2 Tim. 3:16-17 what use has the church now for "tongues"?

* "He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself..." 1 Corinthians 14:4

With interpretion
* "Tongues then are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers." 1 Corinthians 14:22

* "...a tongue or and interpretation. All of these MUST be done for the strengthening of the Church." 1 Corinthians 14:26

turtle (turtle)

07-23-2005, 04:14 PM

Easeltine,
I wonder though easeltine if people that have seen the gift of tongues misrepresented. Don't have a reason to be dispensationalist. If they ever had an experience that God showed them in there life the purpose for tongues for today that person would have a different view. I am not a pencostal that has to see tongues every service or have different signs but when it does happen it is usually for a reason. Sometimes not known to the whole church.

I am almost sure you have experienced what I am going to share. I been in pencostal services where people would come out saying did you see it did you hear it. And some that were new would say what are you talking about. Those that are looking for the signs often times do not see it. Those who visit sometimes do not witness what others do. Are they asleep. I really dont' think so. I think it is for those who will except it and are not looking for it.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-23-2005, 09:15 PM

Turtle,

We hardly see signs and wonders in the home church that we go to. We do not speak in tongues ever in the service, prayer language, or even the Gift of Tongues with Gift of Interpretation. We are careful and remember what Deut. 18:21,22 says regarding a prophet. Some of the members use their prayer language in their personal prayers at home. Infoman and Bear sound like they use their prayer language of the Spirit on a frequent basis. I seldom have practiced any Gifts of the Holy Spirit that I am writing about. I would like to press on and actually receive more true Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You are correct. There are many, many abuses of the "gifts".

Still...

There is no excuse to say that the God of the Scriptures is not operating in the Church of Jesus Christ with signs and wonders today, when He in fact is. There is no excuse to essentially take the scissors out and cut pages from Holy Scripture! Turtle doesn't this get a little of the good Baptist teaching you had regarding the Bible riled up inside of you? There is no excuse to call the true supernatural signs and wonders presently in operation in the world a work of Satan, when in fact it is the work of God, or to call all Pentecostals/Charismatics demonized and therefore per the Dispensationalist theology unsaved. They even to go so far as to think that the Occult is more acceptable than the Pentecostal/Charimatics Gifts of the Spirit. I have even seen eternal security and the idea that a Christian cannot be demonized used as an excuse that they can read about Witchcraft, Magic, and the Occult. The teachers were graduates of the Dispensationalist John MacArthur's Masters Bible College. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

The position presented above seems a little bit more extreme than other Dispensationalists, such as Charles Ryrie in his book The Holy Spirit, and much more extreme than a Fundamentalist such as Billy Graham in his Christian Worker's Handbook.

Erich

turtle (turtle)

07-23-2005, 09:48 PM

True there is no excuss, but I still feel when you look at a persons background you can understand why they have trouble with it. If they witnessed false prophets and abuse of God's gifts then I would understand there view, but on teh other hand, I get mad because they do not recognize any pencostal groups and lump us all in one demonic category which we are not. But I would rather them be ignorant to the truth then go searching and finding a false church. But at the same time they can not go clipping pages from God's word and say the gift is not meant for today. Southern Baptist that I have affliated with did not deny the gift even though they did not teach all about the gifts like tongues except in references to Acts or ICorinthians 14. In all and all if we beiieve the Holy Spirit teaches us then he will teaches us about his gifts too. You have to be open to God's word and not to just man's teaching of it.

I wonder if this looks as if I flip flopped a little to much on what i said. Perhaps so. But I think what is in our life that we dont' except that is true in God's word. But dispensationalism is a danger of coming close to blasphemy. Or better yet is but it is out of ignorance.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-24-2005, 12:21 AM

Turtle,

I think what you are saying, and I agree, there is no excuse, however, due to all the false gifts and abuses we can understand why they believe the way they do.

Erich

turtle (turtle)

07-24-2005, 02:32 AM

You got it.

godchild (godchild)

07-24-2005, 03:58 PM

Turtle, There are a lot of things we do thinking it will please God. To some it might be giving up meat. To others it might be attending every meeting at a church house; attending church on Saturday; keeping our house spotless because "cleanliness is next to Godliness"; taking on positions we are unprepared for because a pastor asked us to; going door to door unwelcomed continually; adorning our houses with pictures of saints; never saying a swear word or drinking a glass of wine; never cutting our hair (women).
None of these things in and of itself has anything to do with our salvation. Jesus' life; healing on the sabbath, turning over the tables in the temple, eating with sinners, and on and on was to show us these things are empty. It is the inner man God wants. Christ's sacrifice was the only acceptable act to God for the covering of our sins. God knows we are imperfect. He created us, how can we think He does not know everything about us. You can follow every single law and it means nothing. The only thing that matters to God is that you believe. NO WORKS will bring you closer to God. If our minds and hearts and soul are on Christ (GOD) the Holy Spirit will guide us as to how we should walk. It should become second-nature, not something we spend so much valuable time wondering and worrying about. Let go and let God. By surrendering my will to His, I am able to accept myself and truly know I am acceptable to Him because I love (faith, trust, hope, follow, praise) the Lord. It is in loving Him that I learn to love others. It is in loving him that I know he will not tempt me beyond what I can bear. I will stumble but not fall. I wear His armor.
Who can plan their day and have it go exactly the way they plan? Let God plan your day and it will go exactly as He plans. Though not perfect for us, perfect for Him.

turtle (turtle)

07-24-2005, 06:26 PM

Godchild, I think you wanted the other post. We were discussing dispensationalism here. How some do not believe in the gift of tongues and others do like the pencostals.

I do not believe works is necessary for salvation actually nothing we do will saved us, But the simple fact is that if we love Christ and believe we will do what he says and the works shall follow us. And hopefully people will see Christ in us.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-25-2005, 05:28 PM

"None of these things in and of itself has anything to do with our salvation."

"I do not believe works is necessary for salvation actually nothing we do will saved us, But the simple fact is that if we love Christ and believe we will do what he says and the works shall follow us. And hopefully people will see Christ in us."

I LOVE IT, I LOVE IT, I LOVE IT!

turtle (turtle)

07-25-2005, 08:43 PM

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Romans 6:14-18)

Wyoming do you like this one too.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-25-2005, 09:20 PM

Yes, I love God's grace because the law of sin and death no longer has dominion over us, even when we sin. And there is not the slightest hint in the Bible that we have a license to sin, now that we are saved, and I don't know any Christian who would claim otherwise -- it's an unfair accusation. The Holy Spirit gives us a conscience by which we find our own sins repulsive. We don't boast in sin!

Grace is God's unmerited love. When we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. We are free from the condemnation of sin. "Who shall bring a charge to God's elect?"

easeltine (easeltine)

07-25-2005, 10:29 PM

Alan,

It is not an accusation against the way you believe in eternal security. It was based on a Presbyterian friend who told me, "All you need to do is make a mental commitment to Jesus once in your life and then it doesn't matter what you do after that." It was years ago and was the first time I ever heard about eternal security. It really disturbed me at the time.

Erich

turtle (turtle)

07-25-2005, 11:29 PM

Becoming a little more united are we. Breaking down bariers in terms is important. I say things that tick people off because they dont' know where I come from that is why it is so important to let God's word speak because man just seems to mess it up.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-29-2005, 03:37 AM

Hi,

There was another thread I went to that all they were talking about was the specific person. One side was http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif the other side was http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif towards the person. The angry side presented the healing power of Jesus Christ for today in a total Dispensational Box way. This upset me, it seemed like that person was saying God would never heal or deliver people from evil spirits today, (when I have seen it). These are the Scriptures that I used and it pertains to this subject on this thread:
Too much Scofield Dispensational heresy, I will present the other side.

Below contradicts the words of Jesus. As Wilfred
Meloon, an Independent Baptist pastor, proclaims as the title of his book "We've Been Robbed." Don't let them take your faith away!

"I will be glad to take any Charismatic preacher with me into a hospital and we will demonstrate right there which of us is doctrinally correct in this matter."

"If a Christian has the power to bind the devil and to cast out sicknesses, let’s see it."

"He proclaims, "We lay hands on the sick and they recover."
***

Matt 7:7-8 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matt 18:19-20 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

Mark 11:22-25 - "Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea.' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that way he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Luke 11:9-10 "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

John 14:12-14 "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

John 15:6-8 "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

1 John 3:21-24 "Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn, we have confidence before God and receive from Him anything we ask, because we obey His commands and do what pleases Him. And this is His command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us. Those who obey His command live in Him, and He in them. And this is how we know He lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gives us."

1 John 5:14,15 "This is the confidence we have in approaching God that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him."
Jesus regarding His return:

Luke 18:7-8 "I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

Paul warnings regarding people that deny the power of God.

2 Tim 3:4-5 "...having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them."

The entire Gospels talk about how the faith of the recipient of the healing was important for their healing when Jesus Christ prayed for them. Do not let the false teaching of Dispensationalism take your faith away! It is not some Pentecostal/Charismatic saying the words of Scripture I quoted, it is the God of Gods, King of Kings, my Lord and Master Jesus Christ who said it and it is the truth!

Erich

P.S. I am not some wild Pentecostal/Charismatic either, it is just that this garbage theology irritates me.

turtle (turtle)

07-29-2005, 04:28 AM

What thread do we speak of. YOu lost me I think. Not really some hold too the dispensational idea cant' change there minds I dont' think. Would this be a good time to change the subject and ask views on freewill and predestination.? Actually when you got two extremes it is very hard to come to a middle I think. I think we come closer to a middle ground on grace but cant' on dipensationalism. God is the same yesterday today and forever. And praise the Lord he does not change.

easeltine (easeltine)

07-29-2005, 06:47 AM

Turtle,

This is what Wyoming has said,

"I'm not saying that God doesn't make intercessession in the World today. He can do anything he wants but He isn't exactly flamboyant about it."

"We are not for a moment denying that the Holy Spirit is active in the world today. We pray for the Lords will but he doesn't perform miracles for us on-demand."

I disagree with him but...

Actually, Alan was less extreme then David777.
The middle is most Southern Baptist. Billy Graham, Dr. Dobson, John Maxwell, and other Fundamentalist do not take the extreme position.

The Billy Graham Christian Worker's Handbook says,

Healing

"God Heals Miraculously, in Keeping with His Sovereign Will - The Bible contains many examples of God actually healing people of organic diseases-those with no psychosomatic cause. There is present-day evidence of this as well."

"None of this, however, should discourage or hinder us from praying in faith for the sick."

Gifts of the Holy Spirit

"Now we should be open to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; we should "earnestly desire" them. 1 Cor. 12:31"

The book writes out 1 Cor. 12:8-11 as one Scripture that "enumerates" the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

"If your inquirer is a believer who is sincerely seeking the fullness of the Holy Spirit and identification of a gift, encourage prolonged and careful study of the Scriptures that deal with the gifts, INCLUDING THE BOOK OF ACTS and the epistles of Paul, where we see gifts being exercised."

"We may wish to have certain gifts and even ask for them..."

The topic of Demons in the Handbook

"For the Christian

There are guidelines and then point number 5 says, "It may be that you are dealing with a legitimate case of one who is demonized. If so, follow the steps outlined below.
Dealing with Demonization:" I will stop here.

Erich

easeltine (easeltine)

07-29-2005, 07:25 AM

I found on the Internet the way Bill Gothard, (with the help of the late Pastor Steele), used to illustrate how you can tell what your spiritual gifts are:

Years ago Bill Gothard used an illustration in which a dessert platter was dropped during the evening meal. It was based on a family of seven with each member having a different one of the seven motivational gifts. As they are having dinner in the dining room the lady serving them comes into the dining room with the dessert platter. As she walked through the door she trips over a fire truck that had been left there by one of the boys. Just that quick, the desserts were flying through the air as the server came crashing down to the floor. It made a huge mess!! The chocolate pie was mixed in with the pecan pie. The coconut cake was smeared on the floor.
As you picture this in your mind, what is your first reaction?
Based on your gift, this may be what you would have said:
Prophecy - That's what happens when you're not careful! And then a follow up – People should not leave their toys in the doorway!!!
Serving - Oh, let me help you clean it up.
Teaching - The reason she tripped is that toy fire truck was left in the doorway and
she did not see it.
Exhortation - Next time let’s make sure there are no toys in the door way and that we watch where we are going. We can learn from this and be better because of it.
Giving - I'll be happy to buy a new dessert.
Administration -Jim, would you get the mop, Sue please help pick it up, and Mary, help me fix some other dessert. Theresa, see if our server is OK.
Mercy - Don't feel badly. It could have happened to anyone.
Our gift will cause us to react and respond differently to almost any situation. We have them because there are different needs in the body of Christ.

I looked for it at my mom's house...but the illustration, (especially Prophecy), was too much for her so she had thrown it out.

godchild (godchild)

07-29-2005, 03:56 PM

wyoming, my first thought would have been "Darn, not the chocolate pie". http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I'm kidding!

godchild (godchild)

07-29-2005, 04:04 PM

I'm still sleepy, easeltine. I meant that last message for you.

On serious note. What would you do? I have been talking with someone on the 'social org' threads. I don't know whether this person is a fake or actually feels he/she is in danger from stalker/gangs, (in his/her words). After four months I was trying to break through with the thought that if these people were serious about harming, they would have done it by now. The last post 'losingground' sent stated a threat to commit suicide. I contacted the 'Ghost in the Machine'. Kept checking back til very late but got no response. What would you do? I have been praying that this person find the help they need and that angels surround and protect him/her. Is there something else I should or could do?

turtle (turtle)

07-29-2005, 04:17 PM

I don't know if I agree with the definition you give of prophecy because anyone could see trouble of toys laying about except maybe my husband. Or maybe I take certain things for granted and don't realize it.

Gifts of the HOly Spirit can be sought but often times they are sought for ungodly gain. I think God provides the gifts as needed. What I mean I think they are given out to all that believe and are used with or without us knowing it. Like once my husband was given the gift of interpetation for such a time in out life it minister to us. Another instant was a warning came from a minister, he knew the person so was it a prophecy maybe maybe not. One man a total strange spoke to me in hospital and he said something totally strange except not to me. Because I was aware of what God had been speaking to me he only confirmed it. But anyone hearing the conversation would of thought he was nuts. What I am trying to make clear is sometimes God uses people or situations to witness to us.

Did my husband ask for the gift of interpetation no but the messages we had were for us. Did the minister know, I am not positive he is aware. But the guy who spoke to me had no clue of what was happening in my life. He said he was a psalmist. Which is a strange term for me at that time. But yet he was aware and spoke truth to me unknowing to him whatt he said, because he did not know my circumstance.

My pray is this Lord use me as you will. And knowing he will do this and provide what I need. Whether it be gifts of tongues, prophecy, interpetation, decernment, or so on. I know it says to desire them but I worry with this day in age if people dont' desire them for purpose of misusing them. And have imitation gifts. Only God knows these answers. I want to be used and not use God.

In otherwords make sure what is desired is for the right purpose. His will not ours.

wyoming (wyoming)

07-29-2005, 06:45 PM

The gift of prophesy is based upon the Greek word propheteo which means to proclaim. Prophesy is not fortune telling or predicting the future as was done by the Prophets of old. The old prophets went around and boldly proclaimed the truth. Prophesy is public speaking or preaching, also according to Gothard. He says that we are to use all the seven of todays [dispensational] ministering gifts, as much as there is in us, but each of us has one that most strongly motivates us. [You could hear the charismatics mumbling in the audience over this.]

I first attended the advanced seminar in August 1972 at Wheaton Bible College when it was day and night for a week. We were in the smaller chapel. [The next 2 years I attended it at UCLA] Each of the gifts was being presented one at a time. When prophesy was introduced, just as the word prophesy was said, we heard the loudest crack of thunder just overhead. We roared with laughter for the longest time, we couldn't get over it.

I think Bill Gothard's degree is in psychological or pastoral counselling. I approached Bill Gothard in Long Beach and told him that when I learned his material, it sounded to me like the old astrology and that either astrology is a counterfeit of spiritual gifts - leaving God out, or that he is teaching us neo-astrology. I told him how I used his material with Christians and non-Christians and when they guessed their gift, their was usually a coincidence of the gifts being alligned with the astrological signs. If I knew one about them I could predict the other and it was almost always correct. [The seminar also had some discussion on difficulty in discovering your gift.] Gothard listened but had no response. Elsewhere, in the basic seminar, Gothard describes the occult as phenomonon within God's creation, that God does not want us to delve into. He used the analogy of God putting us into a play pen and telling us that this is the realm we are restricted to and to not venture outside.

Prophesy - Gemini
Giving - Leo
Teaching - Aquarius, Virgo
Serving - Taurus, Sagitarius
Exhortation - Aries, Scorpio
Administration - Libra, Capricorn
Mercy/Empathy - Cancer, Pisces

It is best that I not get into this any further. It is best that we walk by faith and not by sight. I have shared this information with an author of a book that does a takeoff on Bill Gothards material but they don't like hearing it because it pops their balloon.

turtle (turtle)

08-01-2005, 06:45 PM

wyoming and easeltine when I think of prophecy I think of fortelling future events. Like God did Abraham when he told him his kids would be in egypt. He did not live to see this. Or book of revalations.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-01-2005, 07:44 PM

This was cleared up for me in Bible college. The Prophets were preachers; they weren't traveling soothsayers. Part of their ministry, in some cases, not all cases, spoke of future events, cause and effect sequences, and, in some cases, they did not understand the full impications of what they were saying -- at least we only understand the book of Revelation in part.

There were major prophets and minor prophets and they were mostly different in their roles and functions. [I wonder what Yaakov would say about that.] I think it would be safe to say that they seem to have some commonality in their separation unto the Lord, similar to the Apostles.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-01-2005, 08:41 PM

turtle

when I think of prophecy I think of fortelling future events. Like God did Abraham when he told him his kids would be in egypt. He did not live to see this.

wyoming

The gift of prophesy is based upon the Greek word propheteo which means to proclaim. Prophesy is not fortune telling or predicting the future as was done by the Prophets of old. The old prophets went around and boldly proclaimed the truth.

[snip]

The Prophets were preachers; they weren't traveling soothsayers. Part of their ministry, in some cases, not all cases, spoke of future events, cause and effect sequences, and, in some cases, they did not understand the full impications of what they were saying…

I wonder what Yaakov would say about that.

Funny you should ask…I just found about this topic about a week ago.

The Jewish concept of a prophet is different from the Christian concept. The Greek word prophet is not a good translation of the Hebrew word navi (Nun-Bet-Yod-Alef). The word is based on niv sefatayim meaning "fruit of the lips," which emphasizes the navi's role as a speaker. A navi is really a spokesperson for God, that is one who speaks to his or her generation on behalf of God. These two points must be present to be a Jewish “prophet”, 1) speak to God, not merely an angel and 2) speak to their own generation, not to future generations. All the prophets in the Tanakh are speaking to their own generation, however what they said is important to us today.

The greatest navi to ever live was Moses. He could hear God clearly. Most other navi’s heard from God as if through a prism, or a fog. Many heard Him through dreams or visions. In other words, the connection wasn’t as good!

At its height all Jews were prophets and prophecy existed in Israel because having all the Jews together in the holy land made for a holy enough link for it to exist and thrive. There were Yeshivas dedicated to training people to be navis – because one must be very much a tzeddek (righteous person) to have that kind of a link to God. Not all prophets were Jews (though most were) and there were women as well as men navis. Esther was a navi. So was Miriam (Moshe's sister).

As Israel was destroyed and holiness declined (with the encroachment of Hellenism) prophecy became more and more sporadic. The last prophets realized that it was declining and that we were entering a period when there would be no more prophecy for a long time. Therefore Ezra, a prophet, called a Sanhedrin which came to be known as the Men of the Great Assembly. There were 120 members rather than 70. They codified the Tanakh and Siddur and prepared the Jews for the move from the era of Prophecy to the era of Knowledge. . .the era we are still in today.

On a related note, Daniel didn’t qualify as a prophet. Daniel’s visions were of the future and were not meant for the people of his time. In addition, he spoke to an angel and not to God. Some of Daniel’s visions have come to pass and others have not. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are to be found in Writings section of the Tanakh.

There were major prophets and minor prophets and they were mostly different in their roles and functions.

There were literally millions of prophets in Israel. Only a fraction made it into the bible at all. Of those, they were definitely split into major and minor categories. Some people had a better connection with God than others.

turtle (turtle)

08-01-2005, 09:11 PM

Yaakov,
That is in sightful, I like your definition. But I did not know Daniel spoke to an angel. I will have to go look into it. I think Christian definition of prophet might vary a little though, based on the fact we all believe that God speaks to us. Some would say God talks directly to them, through pray, medition, His word, or even through someone else. Whch would possibly make all christians prophet by your definition.
And the truth is all Christian will most would say they are righteous by the fact that Christ is our atonement for our sin. Which makes us free from guilt. What Christ did for us purified us. Which would pretty much clarify all Christians are prophets by your definition of a prophet.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-01-2005, 09:17 PM

Yaakov, Thank you very much for your faithfulness to us.

Most fundamentalist educational institutions would agree that there is no one today like the Jewish prophets and the Christian apostles.

(Message edited by Wyoming on August 01, 2005)

easeltine (easeltine)

08-02-2005, 03:34 AM

Hi,

I am going to give some "Charismatic/Pentecostal"
ministers ideas of the Gift of Prophecy. It could be interesting for you:

Lester Sumrall - "The gift of prophecy is not foretelling the future. Prophecy in the N.T. is different from a prophet who foretells the future. God specifically limits this gift to three beautiful exercises - edification, exhortation, and comfort - and none of these have to do with the gifts of revelation."

Derek Prince - "The gift of prophecy is the supernaturally imparted ability to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and speak God's mind or counsel. Prophecy ministers not only to the assembled group of believeers, but to individuals. Its three main purposes are 1. To edify = to build up, strengthen, to make more effective. 2. To exhort = to stimulate, to encourage, to admonish. 3. To comfort = to cheer up. Thus prophecy overcomes two of satan's most common attacks: condemnation and discouragement."

John Wimber - "Prophecy is declaring the message of God to His church for the purpose of edification. It is not a skill, aptitude or talent. It is the actual speaking forth of words given by the Spirit in a particular situation and ceases when the words (given by the Spirit) cease. This may be given in a poetic form or even in a song."

Erich

turtle (turtle)

08-02-2005, 04:01 AM

interesting!

wyoming (wyoming)

08-02-2005, 06:44 AM

Erich,

That sounds very, very nice and it gives me warm fuzzy feelings ...but it doesn't matter what the source, as long as it is scriptural.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-02-2005, 02:20 PM

Are you experiencing the choo-choo train of the
4 spiritual laws?

Fact - 1 Cor. 14:3 - "But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement, and comfort." Gift of Prophecy as a fact.

+

Faith

=

Feeling

Erich

turtle (turtle)

08-02-2005, 02:50 PM

Amen!

yaakov (yaakov)

08-02-2005, 04:30 PM

Turtle

Hmm, I guess I forgot to mention the most important attribute of being a Jewish prophet. Nothing that the prophet says can add to or subtract from the Torah. That is how the Torah tells us we can distinguish a false navi from a true navi. That would disqualify all the people that prophesize about your god as being a God.

turtle (turtle)

08-02-2005, 04:53 PM

Except Yaakov, We would agree with that statement but we say it this way. That a person that prophesies word should be backed up in the Bible. In other words what someone says should be backed Biblically. Or it is not a true prophesy.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-02-2005, 05:02 PM

.
Again, propheteo simply means "to proclaim", and in our context to proclaim, or preach/teach, the gospel. You pentacostalists tend to put a mystical spin on anything you can get your hands on. Yaakov's Jewish treatise on the Prophets is on solid ground; except for the remark against our [and his] Messiah being God incarnate.

(Message edited by Wyoming on August 02, 2005)

turtle (turtle)

08-02-2005, 05:10 PM

wyoming, Sometimes someone will remind us what God's word says concerning someone circumstance or problem they are going through. This would be considered a prophecy. Yet the only thing is it a promise of God for the belieer if we just stand firm in our faith.

Now if someone says we are in the days like noah. It sounds like fortunetelling or mystically but that is a biblical truth.

I well grant this to you wyoming sometimes people misunderstand when someone says something like that as a fortunetelling or mystical type of thing. Fact is it is bible. It is a warning that the Lord can come anytime and is coming like a thief. Was this a mystical statement or was it fact. But people not understanding could think something else. That is the trouble with pencostals. Emotionalism.

godchild (godchild)

08-02-2005, 05:48 PM

Wyoming, I agree with you. After studying the Old Testament, I notice that Aaron's sons were killed because they started a fire (something that God did not ask for) seemingly to please God, or as a form of worship, (my understanding). God was so displeased they burned and died. I think that is a good warning to us not to call certain occurrances commandments. Is is more important for us to be edified if it displeases God? I say, why chance it!

wyoming (wyoming)

08-02-2005, 05:58 PM

In the Roman Catholic Mass, the priest supposedly brings God down on the altar through "transubstantiation" and takes in hand the wafer and wine as the body and blood of Christ.

I'm sure I've made myself very clear, by this time, my position, which is not unpopular, that certain miraculous powers and gifts performed by the Apostles are not performed today. Of course I believed they were once active! Emotionalism is one of the most deceptive states of being. People build their doctrine while they are in such states. How about smoking pot and coming up with doctrine!

I'm back to Simon the Sorcerer covetous for religious power like the priest at the altar. They want to believe that can call up God on demand, like a genie out of a bottle, and lay on hands. They've got the roles reversed.

Also, they don't understand that when the Apostles disappeared, certain powers and miraculous gifts disappeared with them. Perhaps, in an emotional state, they can hypnotize themselves into thinking they have command of the Holy Spirit.

godchild (godchild)

08-02-2005, 06:14 PM

Yaakov, I have been studying that link. But first I would like to ask you; you said yesterday that the prophets were speaking to their own generation, not future events, though it is important for us today. This brings me to the link about Isaiah 52,53.
First, when you say they are speaking to their own generation, are you saying they are speaking to their own generation about current (that time) events, or future events?
In 'The fourth servant song-Jewish Interpretation of Isaiah 53, I found the following: That Jews believe Isaiah 52:13,14,15 are from God; Isaiah 53:1,2,3,4 are the voice of (Gentile) nations. In other words, it says that the speaker is the Gentile nations. Further, it states: What might the leaders of the (Gentile) nations be saying, "We saw nothing worthwhile in the Jewish nations, so we despised them. Eventually, we pushed our own troubles on them, using them as a convenient scapegoat, thereby allowing us to escape our problems. We now realize that in blaming the Jewish people for our troubles, we have sinned and caused them much pain-they suffered directly from our sins. As we saw them suffer, we told them that God was the one who caused this pain, it was their own fault. Yet, in truth, they suffered from us alone, not so much because of God."
This bothers me a lot along with many other things that are said in that link. This is an obvious attempt of Jews to blame the (Gentile) nations for their sins, instead of taking responsibility themselves. I must say, I was very upset by this whole section, as it appears to be anti-Gentile. Or, as you say, was Isaiah speaking only to that generation. If and even so, there seems to be blame placed where it should not be.
Also, how could the (Gentile) nations be under the laws of Judaism?

wyoming (wyoming)

08-02-2005, 06:15 PM

godchild,

I've thought of that one frequently, along with Moses striking the rock rather than just calling the water forth as God instructed him. Adding to, taking away, or putting a spin on scripture, through Bible commentaries, is very risky business. We need to rightly divide God's Word. To try to over-explain without proper Bible exposition is very dangerous. To set doctrinal precedence by EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE rather than rightly dividing is very dangerous. If I was Satan, I would infiltrate the churches and cause whatever confusion I could and I would take scripture out of context, dispensationally, to try to validate all the false doctrine, heresies, and carnal practices that I could put together about 2000 years and growing. Maranatha. Lord come quickly.

godchild (godchild)

08-02-2005, 06:22 PM

It is only by stating, (I believe) that Isaiah 53:1,2,3,4 are the voice of (Gentile) nations (the speaker), that Judaism can say Isaiah is speaking of Israel, and not Jesus. This link speaks of future events, not of events in that generation. (Witnessing the exaltation of Israel will shock, not only startle, but dumbfound the Gentiles). If it is not the Gentile voice, or spokesperson for the Gentiles, but God's voice, it is obviously speaking of the Israelites being shocked, startled and dumbfounded.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-02-2005, 06:25 PM

If I was Satan, I would infiltrate the churches and cause whatever confusion I could and I would take scripture out of context, dispensationally, to try to validate all the false doctrine, heresies, and carnal practices that I could put together about 2000 years and growing.

Pretty darn specific, Wyoming. Do you think Satan has already done this?

yaakov (yaakov)

08-02-2005, 06:30 PM

godchild

Yaakov, I have been studying that link.

What is your opinion of it? On the whole, does it make sense?

yaakov (yaakov)

08-02-2005, 06:39 PM

godchild

In other words, it says that the speaker is the Gentile nations. Further, it states: What might the leaders of the (Gentile) nations be saying, "We saw nothing worthwhile in the Jewish nations, so we despised them. Eventually, we pushed our own troubles on them, using them as a convenient scapegoat, thereby allowing us to escape our problems. We now realize that in blaming the Jewish people for our troubles, we have sinned and caused them much pain-they suffered directly from our sins. As we saw them suffer, we told them that God was the one who caused this pain, it was their own fault. Yet, in truth, they suffered from us alone, not so much because of God."

This bothers me a lot along with many other things that are said in that link. This is an obvious attempt of Jews to blame the (Gentile) nations for their sins, instead of taking responsibility themselves. I must say, I was very upset by this whole section, as it appears to be anti-Gentile.

That is not how I interpreted the section that you quoted. When I read it, I imagined that Germany during 1940 was speaking. It fits very well. Back in Isaiah’s day, he was speaking about Rome. It fit then, too.

However, the quote doesn’t apply to every gentile. It only applies to the ones that despised us and used us as scapegoats.

Also, how could the (Gentile) nations be under the laws of Judaism?

How could they not be, they are God’s Laws for every person. God’s Law is Eternal and unchangeable. God did not give His Laws for a short time, but for all time and to all humanity.

godchild (godchild)

08-02-2005, 07:26 PM

I am speaking of the Gentiles at that time. Unless they had access to the torakh, which in my understanding only the priests did. Do you think the Gentiles had the Ten Commandments?

yaakov (yaakov)

08-02-2005, 08:49 PM

godchild

I am speaking of the Gentiles at that time.

Then it fits with Rome.

Unless they had access to the torakh, which in my understanding only the priests did.

Your understanding is incorrect. Torah has never been shut away for just a few people. It has always been available to everyone, to the masses. Teaching Torah has always been a national pastime of the Jews.

Do you think the Gentiles had the Ten Commandments?

The Law was available to them, if they wanted it. I think it was Rabbi Akiva (lived during these times) who said “If the gentiles understood how much benefit to them existed in the Torah, they would never have rejected it.”

wyoming (wyoming)

08-02-2005, 10:01 PM

Yaakov,

We did not reject the Law. First, it was our school-master. Now, under Grace, it is written upon our hearts, not just upon tablets of stone.

I'm sure you understand Christians more than even most of your Rabbis. Do they see the difference between true Christianity and the Gentiles who are only religious in name only -- a bunch of baptized pagans?

Do they realize that all these wars that were fought in the name of "the Church", or "the Pope", is a claim of blasphemy, which really doesn't represent Christianity. The same question could be asked of Moslems, and of Christians toward Moslems. [True Christians honor the Jews.]

--Alan.

cindig (cindig)

08-03-2005, 12:48 AM

wyoming,
When I check factnet, I always look to see if you have written. I love to read your posts. You are so full of knowledge, very doctrinally sound knowledge. Thanks for all the time you spend posting.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-03-2005, 04:07 AM

Yaakov,

"Nothing that the prophet says can add to or subtract from the Torah. That is how the Torah tells us we can distinguish a false navi from a true navi. That would disqualify all the people that prophesize about your god as being a God."

Deut. 18:21,22 tells how one can distinguish between a true and false prophet. From my point of view, and other Christians, the Old Testament is filled with prophecy regarding the Messiah as being God, and we see Jesus as the Messiah.

Everybody,
Deut. 18:21,22 and many other Scriptures and examples of Prophets shows us that a Prophet is more then someone just proclaiming the Word of God. It limits the Office of the Prophet to just a Teacher. Every Prophet in the O.T. and N.T. is much more then this.

Historically, the Gift of Prophecy and the Prophet has never disappeared - Columba 521 AD - 597 AD is a perfect example.

Erich

love22698 (love22698)

08-03-2005, 04:26 AM

i agree easatine ??? is it esatine or easeltine, at least i agree about the prophets.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-03-2005, 05:12 PM

easeltine

"Nothing that the prophet says can add to or subtract from the Torah. That is how the Torah tells us we can distinguish a false navi from a true navi. That would disqualify all the people that prophesize about your god as being a God."

Deut. 18:21,22 tells how one can distinguish between a true and false prophet. From my point of view, and other Christians, the Old Testament is filled with prophecy regarding the Messiah as being God, and we see Jesus as the Messiah.

As I have repeatedly said, yes, your so-called Old Testament supports the Christian POV since it is the Christian bible. However, the true un-altered words of God are in the Tanakh (the Jewish bible), unchanged since God gave us the Torah at Mount Sinai. God tells us that the Messiah can NOT be God and the Messiah should NOT be worshipped.

Deut. 18:21,22 and many other Scriptures and examples of Prophets shows us that a Prophet is more then someone just proclaiming the Word of God. It limits the Office of the Prophet to just a Teacher.

Deuteronomy 18
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.
20. But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
21. Now if you say to yourself, "How will we know the word that the Lord did not speak?"
22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him.

I disagree with you. The text clearly states that a prophet is someone that will JUST proclaim God’s words and nothing more. In addition, the text does not say that a prophet can only be a teacher. At the height of the Age of Prophecy, every single Israeli was a prophet.

Also, to determine if a prophet is true or not, Deuteronomy 13 is much more explicit.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.
7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."
8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;
9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.
10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
12. And all Israel shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer do any evil such as this in your midst.
13. If you hear in one of your cities which the Lord, your God, is giving you to dwell therein, saying,
14. "Unfaithful men have gone forth from among you and have led the inhabitants of their city astray, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods, which you have not known.' "
15. Then you shall inquire, investigate, and ask thoroughly, and, behold, it is true, the matter is certain, that such abomination has been committed in your midst:
16. You shall surely strike down the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroy it with all that is in it and its livestock, with the edge of the sword.
17. And you shall collect all its spoil into the midst of its open square, and burn with fire the city and all its spoil, completely, for the Lord, your God; and it shall be a heap of destruction forever, never to be rebuilt.
18. And nothing that is doomed to destruction shall cling to your hand, so that the Lord may return from His fierce wrath, and grant you compassion, and be compassionate with you, and multiply you, as He swore to your forefathers.
19. For you shall hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you this day, to do that which is proper in the eyes of the Lord, your God.

God is telling us very explicitly not to follow other gods, like jesus.

godchild (godchild)

08-03-2005, 07:07 PM

Yaakov, do you believe Jesus turned the people away from the living God? What did Jesus prophesy that has not come to pass?

wyoming (wyoming)

08-03-2005, 08:25 PM

Yaakov,

You probably know that Christians recognize the Jewish coming of Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ to be the same event.

How many Jews will (again) reject the coming of Messiah as another false God?

With Jesus the Christ, the religious order did not want to be disenfranchised.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-03-2005, 09:08 PM

wyoming

You probably know that Christians recognize the Jewish coming of Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ to be the same event.

I know. It is a deceptive tactic to try to convince the Jews to convert.

How many Jews will (again) reject the coming of Messiah as another false God?

All of them. It is forbidden to worship the Messiah as a God. Only God is to be worshipped, that is the most common theme of the bible.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-03-2005, 09:13 PM

godchild

Why recognize a guy as a Messiah that did absolutely nothing that a Messiah is supposed to do? Why not call Elvis the Messiah? He had a following and did just as many messianic tasks that your deity did. Plus, he had the added bonus of raising from the dead as well.

Why worship the Messiah as a God? Show me the passage in the Tanakh that says we are supposed to do that.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-03-2005, 11:55 PM

O.K., now I do recall that the Jews expect Messiah to be a prophet, priest, and king; not the son of God, nor God incarnate.

When you get caught up and have time to answer, who are Elohim: God in the plural? "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

turtle (turtle)

08-04-2005, 03:44 AM

I dont' think in the tanahk it is plural wyoming. Which is interesting but is God's name Elohim plural in context.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-04-2005, 03:57 AM

Yaakov,

"However, the true un-altered words of God are in the Tanakh (the Jewish bible), unchanged since God gave us the Torah at Mount Sinai."

From everything that I have seen the Tanakh is based on The Masoretic Text. The Masoretic Text Editors clearly state in the Preface that they used the same material as the non-Jewish Bible and used the non-Jewish Bibles for the Translation. I don't see any proof that it is better then the Christian Translations. Show me one of the Jewish editors explaining how this is
a better Translation for me, at least so I can see their viewpoint.

"22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him."

That sounds like a future prediction that does not come to pass to me. How are you interpreting this? My point was that a Prophet is not a Teacher, a Prophet is different then a Teacher. As Christians we are supposed to be a Prophet, and Priest in our homes...NOW...TODAY, not in the Age of Prophecy or the Apostolic Age...NOW! I was and am agreeing with you that the Prophet is different then a Teacher.

Yaakov, Wyoming is starting with Genesis 1:26, we have stated that before. We have looked at Isaiah 9:5 in your Bible, which is Isaiah 9:6 in the Christian Bible. We have also looked at Isaiah Chapter 11. The idea is that Christ is One with the Father.

This comment:

"Why recognize a guy as a Messiah that did absolutely nothing that a Messiah is supposed to do? Why not call Elvis the Messiah? He had a following and did just as many messianic tasks that your deity did. Plus, he had the added bonus of raising from the dead as well."

Isaiah 11 describes the Messiah, we believe that this is a description of Jesus Christ. To take your super sarcastic comment literally, Elvis has none of the characteristics described in Isaiah 11 of the Messiah and Christ had those characteristics. Elvis was a hip waiving sinner and Jesus Christ was the lamb of God having no sin.

Have you ever read the Gospels? If interested I could recommend a couple of movies depicting Jesus Christ for you, and then you would have a better frame of reference to compare Elvis to Jesus the Christ.

Erich

cindig (cindig)

08-04-2005, 04:54 PM

wyoming,
I would love to see you post on the Apostalic Movement and also on Snakes board.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-04-2005, 06:09 PM

Cindi,

I'm real picky where I go because I already spend too much time on FactNet. On some threads we just keep repeating ourselves and get more entrenched and polarized in our positions. It might be food for some spectators. There are threads that I won't waste my time and threads where I can see that folks like Godchild, Doug, Grace2U, Overseas, Friend, Bee, and Just_Curious are taking care of business.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-04-2005, 07:31 PM

wyoming

O.K., now I do recall that the Jews expect Messiah to be a prophet, priest, and king; not the son of God, nor God incarnate.

Closer than before, but not exactly right. We expect the Messiah to be a king and a navi (because he will be speaking to his own generation). However, it is impossible for the Messiah to be a priest. The priest and king can not be combined in one person, they are from two different tribes. You are correct that the Messiah will be a human person, not a God. We don’t worship people or any sort of idol.

When you get caught up and have time to answer, who are Elohim: God in the plural? "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"

At this verse, God is speaking royally to all the assembled angels. The “im” in Hebrew does not always mean the word is a plural just like an “s” at the end of an English word does not always mean the word is a plural.

yaakov (yaakov)

08-04-2005, 07:38 PM

easeltine

"However, the true un-altered words of God are in the Tanakh (the Jewish bible), unchanged since God gave us the Torah at Mount Sinai."

I don't see any proof that it [Tanakh] is better then the Christian Translations.

I pasted this from a friend of mine

It helps to remember that the KJV translators were living in England in the 17th century. Along with keeping in mind that English words have changed in meaning since then, you have to remember that the world itself was a different place. No internet. No mass access to publications. Only the very rich had books or could even read!

The KJV translator(s) had limited access to Jewish manuscripts. Since we'd been murdered so often for "denying" jesus we tried to avoid the Christians. Many countries had killed us or thrown us out (remember all the Jews were deported from England in 1290. So now circa 17th century where are the English going to find Jews let alone a Jewish copy of the "bible"?

Christians, naturally. Who else?

The KJV translators depended on a book called “Second Rabbinic Bible” which had been put together from multiple Hebrew sources (more on this in a minute). It was NOT put together by rabbis BTW -- the title is a misnomer.

Along with that remember that since they weren’t Jews just how well did they know Hebrew? And there were no Jews around (remember -- they were thrown out in 1290). So who taught them Hebrew? At what age did they learn it? Did they have a chance to actually SPEAK it?

There is a huge difference from someone who takes Spanish 101 as a freshman in college compared to a person born in Spain who grows up speaking the language. So the Christian translators were at a disadvantage because of their lack of “native” Hebrew knowledge.

Back to an earlier point. The KJV was NOT based on the masoretic text as most Christians think. All the KJV translators had access to was the “Second Rabbinic Bible” published by Bomberg in the 16th century. Bomberg was not a Jew; he was the son of Antwerp burgher, Cornelius von Bomberghen.

The “Second Rabbinic Bible” was the creation of Yacov ben Chaim Ibn Adonijah who was a Jew who converted to Christianity. He did not merely publish an MT in Hebrew, he actually compiled his work from pieces of the Tanakh – he didn’t have one complete MT. So he used many sources, none of which he documented. As mentioned this was the “Second” version by Bomberg. Here is a little information on the first one which preceded it by a few years.

From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/loc/Great.html

In 1516, a wealthy Venetian, Daniel Bomberg who had been born in Antwerp, was granted the privilege of publishing Hebrew books in that city. Among the first he published was a folio edition of the entire Bible with the leading commentaries, Mikraot Gedolot (Rabbinic Bible), which came off the press in 1516-17. Pope Leo's imprimatur was sought and granted, and Felix Pratensis, a monk born a Jew, was its editor. . . editorship by an apostate and the blessing of the Pope made Jews avoid the edition. . .

He even dedicated it to Pope Leo! Bomberg’s second edition was edited by another apostate Jew who became a Christian – Ben Chaim. It was this second work that became the basis of the KJV.

Needless to say, this “Second Rabbinic Bible” was no such thing. It was not a Jewish work and it was not accepted by Jews. Neither Jew nor gentile has any idea what sources he used since he hobbled together his version from multiple sources. He gave no footnotes or references as to which sources he used!

R. Jedidiah Solomon Norzi, a renowned 17th century masoretic scholar, wrote a work entitled Minhat Shai, where he goes into great detail about the inaccuracies in Ben Chaim’s “Second Rabbinic Bible.” One example is Deuteronomy 32: 6 where he said:

Quote:
'The Heh is large and written separately, and the Lamed has a silent Shva, and the letters of G-d's name have their regular diacritic marks. This is the opinion of Gedolei Yisrael and their sages'.

He is saying that the Heh is attached to the Lamed preceding G-d's name. This is because the silent Shva signifies the end of a syllable. This is just one error found in the “Second Rabbinic Bible.” There are many, many more.

So Ben Chaim’s version (the basis of the KJV) is full of errors that had to be corrected later.

This was done by R' Menachem di Lonzano in his Or Torah and R' Shlomo Yedidiah Nortzi in his Minchat Shai. These two scholars used the tools of majority and tradition to clarify the accepted text of the Bible and their work remains the guide for scribes as codified by R' Shlomo Ganzfried (the author of Kitzur Shulchan Aruch) in his Kesset Sofer. The claim that Yaakov ben Chaim determined the basis of the accepted text is entirely wrong.

So much for the myth that the original KJV used the “Jewish” Hebrew MT. Only “sorta kinda.” Because they couldn’t get the total Tanakh and since he didn’t give references as to what sources he DID use it is very suspect. Want proof? Ben Chaim’s work does not fully agree with ANY MT manuscript in total. None. There are multiple variances in the HEBREW let alone before we get to the KJV translation.

The KJV is NOT a “true” translation from the Hebrew and somehow inerrant. Not to mention that the KJV translators also admit in the preface that they also did “consult” earlier translations as well – so now you know that the KJV is not “inspired by G-d” it is based on a faulty text to begin with.

Many Hebrew texts isn’t the Tanakh. Since he couldn’t get a Tanakh or an MT straight from us Jews, Ben Chaim collated bits and pieces of manuscripts together in an effort to recover, to the best of his ability, the Masoretic text behind them. This is what the KJV translators used.

"22. If the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not occur and does not come about, that is the thing the Lord did not speak. The prophet has spoken it wantonly; you shall not be afraid of him."

That sounds like a future prediction that does not come to pass to me.

That is because you are interpreting it through the lens of Christianity, that a prophet speaks to the future. In Judaism, navis speak to their own generation. So, if the thing proclaimed does not occur \u(in the prophet’s lifetime} then the prophet is a fake.

The idea is that Christ is One with the Father.

I am aware of the Christian idea. It is totally at odds with Judaism.

Isaiah 11 describes the Messiah, we believe that this is a description of Jesus Christ. To take your super sarcastic comment literally, Elvis has none of the characteristics described in Isaiah 11 of the Messiah

Neither does your man-god. BTW, it is not written in the Tanakh that the Messiah will not sin. That is not a qualification of being a messiah.

Have you ever read the Gospels? If interested…

Nope, not interested. I’ve already got the source.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-04-2005, 11:17 PM

Yaakov,

Christians are interested in the Jews and their Book.

It is peculiar that you should be interested in Christians to the extent that you have made 550 posts on FactNet, but you are not interested in our Book.

What is your purpose? What if the Christians are right?

godchild (godchild)

08-05-2005, 12:23 AM

Yaakov, what about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that there is only about (what'd you say, 10, 15% errors in the Greek Bible)? That leaves a pretty good amount of correct guessing for people who couldn't read Hebrew, as you claim.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-05-2005, 03:59 AM

Yaakov,

You have conviction for Judaism.
We don't agree, though you argue well, and I respect that.
Most people on FactNet I have learned to respect even if I see things differently.

Erich

godchild (godchild)

08-05-2005, 06:13 PM

Yaakov, I agree your conviction is admirable.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-06-2005, 12:32 AM

Yaakov,

Our translators take "Elohim" to be God in the plural.

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". KJV

The so-called Trinity is a plurality of the Deity.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-06-2005, 06:08 AM

Yaakov,

The Tanakh says the same as the KJV that Wyoming quoted above from Genesis 1:26.

The interpretation of Judaism on this passage does not seem correct to us.

Erich

yaakov (yaakov)

08-07-2005, 06:36 AM

Our translators take "Elohim" to be God in the plural.

The interpretation of Judaism on this passage does not seem correct to us.

Your translators are Christian, they have to mistranslate it. Plus they have to insist that a plurality is two or three, instead of three, four, or a hundred.

The bible repeats over and over and over that God is a singular entity. Christians mistranslate this one verse and use it to trump the dozens of verses where God says He is One.

wyoming (wyoming)

08-07-2005, 07:14 AM

God can be a multiplicity and still be One.

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

You can't erase Elohim with it's plural ending.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-07-2005, 07:55 AM

26 Vayomer Elohim na'aseh adam betzalmenu kidemutenu veyirdu bidegat hayam uve'of hashamayim uvabehemah uvekhol-ha'aretz uvekhol-haremes haromes al-ha'aretz.

And Elohim said, Let us make Mankind in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

27 Vayivra Elohim et-ha'adam betzalmo betzelem Elohim bara oto zakhar unekevah bara otam.

So Elohim created Mankind in his own image, in the image of Elohim he created him; male and female he created them.

easeltine (easeltine)

08-14-2005, 12:18 AM

Well...

This is related to this thread as well:

The Charismatic minister who started our home church has moved from our area and now lives in North Carolina. His background was Great American Regular Baptist, and graduated from Golden Gate Seminary. He was a Charismatic throughout the Seminary. This minister was shot in the spinal chord and has been in a wheel chair ever since 1965 during the riots in Los Angeles. He married after 1965 and has three children. For the past 15 years he has been on kidney dialysis. His theological viewpoint is that the Lord is using his infirmities in his life. In the 70’s he had Kathryn Kuhlman pray for him for healing and she agreed that this is the Lord’s will for his life. Kathryn Kuhlman’s theological perspective was not that everyone is healed when prayed for. “Name it and Claim” is not what I am talking about. Everybody is going to die!

The idea of Strict Dispensationalism is heresy! To say that there are NO divine healing or Gifts of the Holy Spirit today, that it is limited to just the Apostolic Age, and that there are no historical accounts of healing is a lie. To reject all history of the Church from 80 AD to 1517 AD, calling it the “Roman Catholic Era” is nonsense. To reject all history of divine healing or Gifts of the Holy Spirit from 1820 to present, calling them all false due to the “Pentecostal/Charismatic” deception is worse. Strict Dispensationalism has thrown out 1700 years of the past 2000 years of the Christian Church history to support their false doctrine. So, the Charismatic has 300 years 1517 AD to 1820 AD to show that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and divine healing was still in operation in the Christian Church. This I will show.

Friend, would like my first example. George Fox 1624-1690, the founder of the Quakers, has healing take place during his life. See this link for the examples:
http://www.strecorsoc.org/grubb/qth08.html

A good source to show numerous examples of divine healing as answers to prayer from 1517 AD to present is an “Anti-Charismatic” site. Though they are “Anti-Charismatic” they are not “Strict Dispensationalist” and believe that divine healing is for today. They are throwing all “Charismatics” in that same basket as “Name-it-and-Claim-it Faith Healers”. On this site they are quoting from a book against “Faith Healing” published in 1925. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Charismatic/kjcheal8.htm
The site shows the following “very few illustrations” of healings due to answered prayers:

1. Dr. Martin Luther praying for his dying friend Melanchthon, who is “recalled from death.”
2. Dr. Martin Luther praying for Myconius, the superintendent at Gotha, during the last stages of consumption.
3. The Swiss reformer Henry Bullinger regarding his statements on sickness.
4. The declaration of Richard Baxter.
5. George Fox, see above.
6. Many pages of healings recorded by the Scottish Covenanter.
7. The "Journal" of John Wesley, the illustrious founder of Methodism, relates many answers to prayer in case of sickness.
8. Zinzendorf, the founder of the Herrnhuters, known now as the Moravians, had strong convictions as to healing in answer to prayer. This is good. “A thought came into my mind, 'Why do I not apply to God in the beginning rather than in the end of my illness?' I did so and found immediate relief, so that I needed no further medicine."
We all know he isn’t saying never to use medicine.

There has also been historical Church accounts of speaking in tongues since the Apostolic Age, although, there is not too many accounts until modern Pentecostalism. It has been said that the Waldeneses in the 12th and 13th centuries record accounts of healing and speaking in tongues.

Erich

stabidak (stabidak)

08-14-2005, 03:41 AM

I dont know if Tongues have ceased or not, I dont want to be screaming in an area where Gods word is largely quiet.
But from what I have seen the issue is perhaps the most divisive church issue there is and I certainly think that Tongues is by and large faked.
It could well be a evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but not THE evidence.
But I dont really feel qualified to make a dogmatic statement concerning this issue, I dont even know why I am posting on this thread! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif
In HIS grip, stabi

pilgrim (pilgrim)

10-12-2005, 08:24 PM

I believe in the biblical gifts of the Holy Spirtit but not in umbiblical manifestations.
The following web sites shows that the same unbiblical manifestations like (un) holy laughter, a whole range of farmyard and other animal noises manifestations etc. can also be seen in the Collie's Kundalini Signs and Symptoms a New Age document. Please click on the first web site. The second one is the same in spanish.

www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/Powers3.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/Powers3.htm)

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/Powers3_Spanish.htm

Some unbiblical manifestations seen in the church today like the Toronto Experience, [un] holy drunkness etc. are listed in the bible as a sign of judgement on Babylon! eg see Jer 51: 35-58, Jer 51:45.

Here is another link about the Toronto manifestacions.

www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/openletterng2.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/openletterng2.htm)

Falling Backwards: is another manifestation NOT found in the New Testament Church. In the bible we can see that only those who are opposing God go backwards or fall in this way. eg. John 18:6, Isa:1:4; 28:12-13 and Jer 7:24. Saints in the bible did not fall for no reason in this way.

Saints in the scriptures always fall forwards whenever a direction is specified eg.Ezek 3:23; Matt 17:6, Rev.11:16. Saints in the bible only fall for good understandable reasons and not because an unseen force knocks them over or controls them.

Carpet time/floor time: This involuntary sleep is not found in The New Testament Church although it is found among the list of judgement on APOSTACY eg Isa:56:9-11;Jer 51:57:58 and Isa 29:1-10.

In the Mid 1980's well after I left a latter rain cult called Maranatha, I went with a Christian friend to visit a church where an American group was visiting. Everyone who was touched by the members of this group from the USA was falling backwards and were left for a few minutes lying in the floor in a trance-like state.

The first thing that came to my mind was that I have never seen these manifestations in the bible and I strongly felt that these manifestacions did not come from the Holy Spirit. I did not feel peace. I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ a simple prayer. I said to God if this weird unbiblical manifestation do not come from you protect me and my christian friend from falling backwards on the floor. We were the only two outside the American group who did not fall backwards. My friend did not know about my prayers.

Blessings,

pilgrim